to have thrown water over DS (10) as he would not get dressed this morning?

(362 Posts)
StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 10:55:59

We are late almost every day due to DSs having no interest in getting ready for school and it is an ongoing problem where I am severely stressed out every morning.

It got to 8.25 this morning (we need to leave by 8.30) and DS1 was still in underpants jumping on his brother and fighting him. He had been repeatedly told to get dressed and I warned him I would do it.

I picked up a small jug of cold water I had been using for the iron and chucked it at him. He was soaked and had to change pants. He had some splashes of water on his clean and laid out ready school uniform but I told him to put it on.

I now feel very guilty and hate that I did it but the only other option was a hard slap on the arse IMO. So am I a child abuser?

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 10:57:15

Oh he got dressed very quickly after that but then blamed me for us being late again as I had made him wet hmm.

YANBU
My brother was a similar age when my mum threw a bucket of water over him to make him get out of bed. It doesn't hurt and he was much better at getting out of bed for a while after that.

As the mother of a 10 Year old DS I feel your pain. My DS is constantly leaping round with his pants on when I am telling him that we have 5 minutes.

Don't feel bad....better than a slap and at least he knows you mean business. Maybe he will get ready a bit earlier next time!

I honestly dont know if you are being U or not......I don't think I would resort to that but never say never hmm

DonderandBlitzen Fri 08-Feb-13 11:01:19

I feel your pain as my dd is a nightmare at this. I brought in a reward system where if dds are ready and out of the door at the right time they get a point and 5 points = reward on Friday. It has worked so far.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 11:03:47

NO, the only other option was NOT a slap on the arse. There are plenty of other options, all of them including you controlling yourself and parenting better. I fucking hope this is a wind-up, what sort of person throws water over their child to chivvy them along?! It's not only cruel and humiliating, it's illogical as, like he pointed out to you (far more mature than you), it made him late having to dry himself and change his pants. But that's not the point. YWBVVVVVVVU. He also had to go to school in Winter weather with damp clothes.

Nice work. Am sure being late would've been so much better than this. How can he ever be secure again that you won't do something freaky and horrid to him again over something trivial? Him messing around was frustrating, yes, but what you did was vastly disproportionate. You need to apologise to him; how can you expect decent behaviour from him when you model such outrageouslly bad behaviour and OTT reactions?! You indulged yourself in sating your own frustration at his expense.

Believeitornot Fri 08-Feb-13 11:03:48

What about leaving without him?

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 11:03:48

Thank you Egg. That makes me feel better.

Betty I have 2 X 10 year old DSs so you can imagine how easy it is to lose control grin.

whatyoulookinat Fri 08-Feb-13 11:04:48

I feel your pain. 3dcs all up at the crack of dawn but still rushing to get out for 8:30. Maybe I will try throwing water over them tomorrow grin

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 11:04:51

Can't believe people are condoning this! You don't teach children to behave well by behaving badly yourself!

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 11:05:54

OxfordBags get back in your box. Do you have any 10 year old boys?

WorraLiberty Fri 08-Feb-13 11:07:02

I agree with Oxford

OP, as much as I can understand your annoyance...losing control like that isn't the answer.

Would you find it acceptable if he threw something over/at you or his siblings just because he didn't like the situation he was in?

Come on....she hardly threw a massive bucket of water over him, it was a little jug after probably hundreds of warnings to get ready. I doubt it has scarred him for life and maybe now he will know she means business and actually get dressed!

Stuck - two ten year olds, I take my hat off to you. smile

Shesparkles Fri 08-Feb-13 11:08:34

OP you're anything but a child abuser! Funnily enough I have a 10 year old ds and have felt exactly like you have this morning. I think what you did was inspired, and I totally get what you say about the alternative being a smack, I've been there myself.
You warned him, made the consequences clear, and followed through your threat. I think that makes you a good parent. Don't be hard on yourself

HappilyUnhinged Fri 08-Feb-13 11:10:02

When I was a teenager, I remember my stepfather chucking a bucket of water on me (soaking my bed) to get me out of bed one morning after weeks of me making everyone late. I thought it was hilarious. It's not abuse, it's understanding that actions have repercussions. No one is hurt. It never did me any arm, and it WAS funny.

Just make sure ts not a regular thing. 'My mum throws a jug of water on me every morning IS abuse'.

PippaHems Fri 08-Feb-13 11:10:20

My mother used to threaten me with the water jug treatment and my dad used to do it to get me out of bed as a matter of course. Its water, not some sort of posion. I hope the punishment works smile

mrsjay Fri 08-Feb-13 11:10:41

I once burst dds blow up chair thingy they were both arsing about with it and saying its mine its mine so i got a knife and burst it like a loon Yanbu

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:10:57

Get back in your box? hmm

I have a nearly-10yo boy, also a 5yo and a new baby.

Ds1 and 2 are very slow at getting ready. But they get there in the end, what we do is get up early enough, and they know that if they're late, they'll get into trouble at school so I just step back and say, it's up to you chaps.

I also help them if they can't find things.

I don't think it was an appalling thing to do, but it wasn't pleasant or kind - is there not another way to handle this recurrent problem? Like talking tot hem explaining, puttingthe onus onto THEM to get ready?

whatyoulookinat Fri 08-Feb-13 11:11:37

[oxford] I'm not considering it but I really don't think the op needs a hard time about it. She had the water to hand & used it. I usually end up shouting at my 3 most mornings & that's not good, I alwalys feel bad afterwards but trying to gets kids ready for a certain time can be very stressful.

Shesparkles Fri 08-Feb-13 11:12:10

Would you find it acceptable if he threw something over/at you or his siblings just because he didn't like the situation he was in?

This isn't about not liking the situation, this is about him repeatedly having ignored an instruction. A 10 he's old enough to learn the consequences of his actions, and also to know that people have limits, and he'd steam rollered through his mother's limit.
We had to sit ds down last weekend and speak to him about the impact his behaviour has on my mental health. I don't know if it's a behaviour pattern particular to boys, but it's the pushing to the limit the pushing some more, whilst grinning in glee.
Whilst we'd all like to sit down and reason with our children in a stressful situation, it's not realistic

Mrs - that reminds me of something my mum did years and years ago. She bought me and my bro and sis an inflatable tweety pie between us and we were in the back of the car one day argueing over it so she got a safety pin out of her bag and popped it.......stuck in my mind for ever, lol smile

LadyMargolotta Fri 08-Feb-13 11:12:25

It's one thing them being late for school; it's entirely another to more you late for work.

Whilst not condoing what you did, I understand entirely.

Pagwatch Fri 08-Feb-13 11:12:35

I think you really need a plan.

The dynamic - you shouting at him to get ready, him pissing about - is not going to change because you escalate from shouting to throwing water at him. Where do you go next?

He is 10. My dd is 10.
Fwiw this is what I would do.

Sit him down. Tell him that this morning was dreadful. It was upsetting for everyone and you don't want to ever be that angry about just getting up and ready for school. Tell him you are dreadfully disappointed in him that he is behaving like a little baby and disappointed in yourself that the situation is getting out of control.

I would ask him how mornings ought to be. Would it be nice to laugh together in the morning - maybe have more time?
How could you work together to do that?

Get ideas -
Getting up earlier
Having uniform ready the night before and bags packed and behind the door
A schedule with rewards for the mornings he is ready first
...anything that helps.

Then tell him that there will be consequences if he is so late again and go through with them
It should be his worst nightmare. Write it own and stick it on the notice board next to the schedule/reward chart.

I don't know if it helps. But you have to make him fel invested in being ready and concerned about being late or he will continue not to give a shit and your frustration will get worse.

flowery Fri 08-Feb-13 11:13:10

YABU for telling someone to get back in their box just because they disagree with you. Don't ask for opinions if you only want ones that agree with you.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:14:16

Also try lowering expectations - all we have realistically to do in the mornings is get dressed and eat something.

They watch TV from getting up (6-7am, bit random) and I get their breakfast or they do, I findtheir clothes or they do - it just depends who is holdingthe baby at the time!

It's not a rush. It's nice. We're all in it together. If I took on all the responsibility myself, I'd be in pieces. Plus ds1 has dyslexia so that makes him very slow...it isn't his fault.

Madlizzy Fri 08-Feb-13 11:14:51

A few drops of water isn't fecking child abuse. He won't be scarred for life and he'll think again, well, maybe for one morning wink

Is Oxford a wind up I wonder?

No you can't teach kids to behave by being badly behaved yourself, but you can show them that you are human! We do stuff sometimes out of stress, frustration, anger etc. We are not perfect parents, we don't always follow the rule book.

Sometimes if I scream like a loony at the kids or whatever, it helps if, later on, I sit down and just explain that didnt handle the situation perfectly or well, but ask them if they did too? Sometimes I apologise if there was no logical reason for me to get so mad at them (ie. tiredness, stress, worry about completely unrelated stuff) if required. That happened last night with DD, sometimes they admit they should have not been faffing or tidyed their rooms when I asked them or whatever.

I always thought my mother was perfect as she never shouted or lost her rag -I still hate confrontation. She was far from it actually, she was quite a cold person, not that I am suggesting that's the case for anyone here but at least I show my kids I lose it too occasionally and that's ok!

WorraLiberty Fri 08-Feb-13 11:17:01

Would you find it acceptable if he threw something over/at you or his siblings just because he didn't like the situation he was in?

I worded that ^^ badly.

What I mean is, would you find it acceptable if he showed his frustration in this way because the only other option was for him to slap someone hard?

I'm sure you'd teach him that there were many other options available.

I understand why you feel guilty but what's done is done.

Now is probably the time to think of alternatives for the future and Pagwatch has given some very good advice.

olgaga Fri 08-Feb-13 11:17:34

I now feel very guilty and hate that I did it but the only other option was a hard slap on the arse IMO.

I'm pleased you at least feel bad about setting such a poor example! I'm sure you know perfectly well that there are other alternatives to a slap on the arse.

It's Friday today. Why don't you take them both for a treat tonight and discuss how stressful you're finding it. Talk through the consequences for them of being late for school with them. Get a routine together of preparing for school the night before, so that everything is ready, and for breakfast and bathroom in the morning.

A good, dependable routine plus rewards are by far the best way to encourage organisation and good behaviour.

Acandlelitshadow Fri 08-Feb-13 11:17:54

Give 15, 10 and 5 minute warnings and make it clear each time that you will be leaving whatever his state of dress. Take him through the front door in his pants (with uniform in a bag. Up to you if he knows this wink) if necessary. It will only happen once if at all.

Alternatively let him frig as much as he likes one day then make him explain to the office, head and teacher in turn why he is so very very late.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:18:02

Oh and we are NEVER late. I think we've been late about twice in all the years we've been going to school. Somehow we always manage to get out by about 8.15.

I would recommend a few Susan Garland books - I was so relieved when i first bought one of her books in a charity shop, it was our house, our life, exactly smile
and there is nothing wrong with it being chaos.

Blatherskite Fri 08-Feb-13 11:20:01

DS is 5 and already a little bugger for this.

I've found that making him get dressed on the landing with no distractions works best - no toys to play with, no books to read, no sister to jump on....

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:20:09

The only other option was not a hard slap at all.

Good routine and proper consequences for messing around are the way forward.

Pagwatch Fri 08-Feb-13 11:20:35

I agree Rooney

Finding what works for you without being massively would up is enough.

I have banned tv in the morning though until they are ready.
If DD stands in front of me with back packed, kit bag etc and ready to go I tell her she can have tv until its time to leave.

Ds2 needs endless help. But with patience and routine and encouragement he can get washed and dressed and even cooks his lunch!

Letting morning become a battleground is sooooo easy and so bloody pointless.
I did it for bloody years until I had a wtf ! moment.
I love mornings now [gin]

littleblackno Fri 08-Feb-13 11:21:08

I took my ds to nursery in her pj's one morning as she wouldn't get dressed. After weeks of getting stressed, upset (both of us) I just decided to ignore her not getting dressed. She was really shocked when I left the house "but I'm not dressed mummy!!!" Tough!!! I did take clothes in with her and she got dressed pretty quick there.
It made my DS whos 2 yrs older take me seriously if i threatened to do the same with him! That was a year ago and while it's not always an easy task i think they know that i will follow through on the threat to leave the house "however they look" at a specified time.
I don't think you are being unreasonable at all. Just remember the story to tell any gf when he's older!! haha

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:21:20

also can't believe people actually smack 10 year old children.

I used to try it with ds1 when he was about 3. It never worked, we both felt awful. I've not smacked ds2 ever...ds1 not since then, either, though I will very rarely smack his hand away from something if he's failed to stop doing something daft after being asked/told to several times and I NEED him to stop it NOW. It's never hard though and so rare I can't remember more than one instance.

Smacking a 10yo has to be humiliating, no? Doesn't it make them behave more childishly, if you take on the control in that way>

Pagwatch Fri 08-Feb-13 11:21:24

Yes [gin] helps

<nods>

lljkk Fri 08-Feb-13 11:21:59

YABU to ask. FFS, does no one on MN trust themselves any more?

I have literally set all the clocks forward ten minutes in OP's situation. Also, I have focused all my attention on the difficult child from 10 minutes before they should start getting dressed to make sure it happened. More than 10 minutes early on a bad day if they weren't already fed & doing. Some mornings this is very hard work. I know a jug of water wouldn't work, or I would have probably tried that too. Occasionally I break down into angry shouting, I am not a saint.

if they're late, they'll get into trouble at school

Really? What does the school do to get them in trouble? Secondary age I know of penalties that some of my DC would care about, but never heard of late penalties in primary.

I would love the school to come up with a penalty or reasonable reward that made a single difference to DS2. I have precious few of them at home to work with.

gordyslovesheep Fri 08-Feb-13 11:23:02

OP if you are repeatedly late then something in the morning routine isn't working and it's unfair to lay the blame with a 10 year old

I have a 4, 8 and 10 year old to get up and out every day

we have rules - they have to get dressed and brush their teeth before ANYTHING else - food, TV, book signing etc

If they mess around they get a warning - and then a punishment (no packed lunch, no DS that evening etc)

I give 15,10 and 5 min warnings and make sure I have got everything they need ready - lunches, violins, swimming kit and such

If they mess around as we are leaving I IGNORE it completely, get the others in the car calmly then go back and insist they get in - this gives the fussy one time to calm down and wise up

throwing water and smacking are not the answer - yabu

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:23:51

Pag I know - wonderful isn't it? People need to remember them and their kids are on the same team.

LadyMargolotta Fri 08-Feb-13 11:25:01

'If they mess around they get a warning - and then a punishment (no packed lunch, no DS that evening etc)'

What do you mean, no packed lunch? That they have to eat school meals instead?

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:26:41

lljkk, no penalties I know of, but one teacher ds1 had, I think in y2 or maybe y4, made them apologise to the class for being late. I think that was enough.

I had to have words with her to explain that it was (on the one occasion it happend) my fault entirely, ds couldn't possibly avoid it if I went out late. So she shouldn't try and embarrass him.

Since then he has been a bit scared of being late. Not that I think that is a good thing. And I've given hi mthe choice of go to school, or don't, but if he wants to go he has to sort of comply with the rules.

GetOrf Fri 08-Feb-13 11:27:05

I agree with wise and kind pagwatch. This morning was far from ideal, and I think your best bet is to plan mornings a lot more so you don't feel ragged with impatience and lash out at your son.

Throwing water is a bit crap and slapping really is not on. But I can understand how irate you get when you know you have to leave at X and you are running late.

He is old enough now to know consequences - I really agree sit him down and dpeak to him calmly later.

I also really agree with banning telly in the morning.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 11:27:13

Needastrongone - no, I am not a wind-up. I am, however, the daughter of a mother who chose - like the Op chose - to indulge in her own temper and make herself feel better by doing stuff like the OP mentions. I adore my Mum, but it was really damaging.

And OP, you saying "get back in your box" just confirms my suspicions that you are a person with little respect for others and little tolerance for anyone not towing the line you decide on. If you don't want people to disagree with you, don't post on AIBU, especially about doing something mean to a child hmm

itsallinmyhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:27:40

Really Oxford? If I read the OP correctly, it was the tiny jug that fills the iron. Not exactly a 5 litre jug.

OP, your frustrations boiled over. Give yourself a break. He had a few spots of water on his uniform. I'm pretty sure it won't cause a trauma.

He might just take you seriously next time you tell him to get dressed. I'm not sure I'd make a habit of it though.

NTitled Fri 08-Feb-13 11:28:22

I think it's completely unreasonable to do this to a child. I haven't done anything remotely resembling this, and hope I never would (I am the very dull, predictable type).

But that said, I have a 10-yr-old DS, so can completely see how a parent can get to that stage of frustration. Sigh.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 11:28:27

Actually I have tried everything including rewards at the end of the week, talking about it (yeah right), and even asking the school to tell them off but DSs tell me that they never say anything. I even got them alarms that go off when they are supposed to be at the door to get shoes on.

Everything is ready for the morning. They only have to take their clothes from the end of the bed and put them on. Wash themselves (which they don't do unless I stand over them) and eat the breakfast laid out on the table. It does not matter whether they are up at 6 or 7, I am always having to start shouting when its time to leave. The stress is making me ill and I then feel tremendous guilt after I have dropped them off as I don't want them to go into school having been shouted at by me.

I also have a 2 year old and a 16 year old btw but the DSs have been like this since they started school so a very long time.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 08-Feb-13 11:28:38

You hold have done something less silly and maybe even helpful at 8.10. Sorry but totally unacceptable behaviour on your part.

gordyslovesheep Fri 08-Feb-13 11:29:35

yes - packed lunches are their preference - so I remove them

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:29:38

Oh God yeah, no telly in the mornings at all here, we'd never get out of the door.

Ds (11) has to leave at 8.10. His alarm goes off at 7.30am - he gets dressed ( shower the night before) eats breakfast, cleans teeth and he's off! We have it down to a fine art now and he would get a detention if he was late for school.

I think punishing a child using food is far worse than chucking a tiny bit of water over them to be honest!

Piecesofmyheart Fri 08-Feb-13 11:30:28

I think your actions were pretty extreme and you need to have a serious chat with both boys and acknowledge that you lost control and that it's not an acceptable way to behave so they know they can't do it themselves.

Having said that I know the pain of painful mornings! My younger kids are brilliant. Its the eldest who dawdles and gets distracted. There are days when I literally have to stand over her. In your situation I reckon the key thing is to keep them separate with one getting dresses in your room.

Eskino Fri 08-Feb-13 11:30:55

You need to broaden your horizons OP if your only two options in dealing with a 10 yo who behaves like a 10 yo in the mornings is physical punishment or physical punishment. Chill out.

And yes I have brought up two 10 yo boys. Successfully. Without laying a finger on them or throwing anything at them.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:31:54

I bet if you removed TV/computer for every 5 mins they messed around they would pull their socks up!

GoSuckEggs Fri 08-Feb-13 11:32:34

YANBU!! I get DH with a super soaker filled with FREEZING cold water when he wont get out of the bath! grin He squeals like a girl!

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:32:52

And stop shouting, it clearly isn't working and they aren't listening and it's making you even more stressed. Save shouting for something really special wink

FarBetterNow Fri 08-Feb-13 11:33:41

Gordy: 'If they mess around they get a warning - and then a punishment (no packed lunch, no DS that evening etc)'.

Just wondering what they eat for lunch?

specialsubject Fri 08-Feb-13 11:34:00

the lesson is that if you annoy your parents enough, they will do something that you may not like. The OP, as a grown up, didn't hit (even though she felt like it, she controlled herself), didn't throw anything solid, simply administered a small shock.

as others say - actions need to have consequences. At 10 he knows exactly what he is doing.

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 11:36:47

It's not abuse.

Now I have that out of the way..

The more kids are rushed the more they dig their heels in.
They also get to rely on you to get them sorted in the nick of time. They know you will not let it go to the point of them being late and in trouble.

Get him to sort his stuff the night before.
Give him a time he has to be up
A time he has to be back upstairs after breakfast
A time he has to be dressed
A time he has to be at the door in his coat.
Is leaving him behind an option? Can you leave him with OH whilst you get out on time and he has to deal with the consequences.

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 11:37:25

No packed lunch?
Really?

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:37:47

The thing is my ds would then think it was fine and dandy to chuck water when he wasn't getting his way so I'd be on a losing streak if I did it.

It's the same as smacking, it immediately makes YOU the bad guy, whereas if you stay calm (hard!) you always have the upper hand.

ReallyTired Fri 08-Feb-13 11:37:54

My son is eleven and we have similar issues. I think the OP knows in her heart that throwing water at somene is not OK.

Things that help us is to have a rule

1)No TV or computer until you have eaten breakfast, got dressed and brushed your teeth.

2) If you are ready to leave for school at 8.45 then no TV or computer in the evening and early bedtime.

3) It helps to lay out clothes and get everything ready the night before

4) We have a time table drawn out by my son. Ie. how long he needs to wash, get dressed and eat breakfast.

5) Allow him to be late and accept the flack of the head teacher. If you have a kind head teacher then he/she will your child a telling off for being late. Our head teacher talked to my son about drawing up a timetable to ensure he was not late for school.

6) Rewards like having chocolate spread on toast or being allowed TV can work well.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:38:10

I imagine they have school dinners instead.

gordyslovesheep Fri 08-Feb-13 11:40:30

yes they have school dinners grin blimey I don't starve them grin we pay for dinners daily at the school

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 11:40:31

So can someone give me some options then for next week, taking into account my last post on what has been already tried?

We already have no TV, games or computer in the AM. Very interested to know what I have not thought of yet. I have already threatened going to school in pjs but I would be unable to carry one of or both thrashing 10 years out to the car in them as there is no way they would go outside in them willingly!

Whoknowswhocares Fri 08-Feb-13 11:40:35

So you lost your temper and threw some water....not ideal, but hardly crime of the century!

the point is, what punishment will be invoked tonight for his misbehaviour? I'm going to guess that usually it's 'nothing' seeing as he keeps playing you up. withdraw some treat that he usually enjoys this evening (tv, games console, chocolate etc) Make damn sure the other kids are allowed to do it/have it!!!!!

a couple of times should be enough for a attitude adjustment

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:41:31

I can't imagine how people manage without telly in the mornings! You're missing Inazuma 11 sad

not that I sit and watch it with them

seriously though it really seems to focus them, on something, even if that's not getting ready. and they do manage both.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:42:14

Do they lose screen time if they mess around in the morning?

Do they lose pocket money?

Pagwatch Fri 08-Feb-13 11:42:56

Why do you say 'yeah, right' about talking to them?

I have had two boys and both have been ten. They are not babies. Why can't you talk to them?

ReallyTired Fri 08-Feb-13 11:43:46

StuckForAUserName

What about making sure your children get up earlier if your present morning routine is not working.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:44:28

Talking works!

Lancelottie Fri 08-Feb-13 11:44:28

Any suggestions, O Wise Ones, for similar situation with 14-yr-old DS?

He ought to be getting himself to school. I know this. But as we chose to send him to one that isn't on a bus route, he's dependent on a lift by car from one of us unless he gets up in time to cycle (not practical with a tuba and sports kit).

He starts off well enough but chews his breakfast moonily in half-asleep state, then takes forever to clean his teeth (takes ages as he has a mega-braces with connecty bits). So by the time I'm on his case and ranting at him, he can legitimately say, in wounded tones, 'I have to clean them properly! You're always saying!'

ATM DH is ill so the whole morning is down to me. To get younger sibs to school on time, DS needs to get his arse in gear in the car by 8:05, or else HE isn't late but THEY are.

By this age I think he ought to have got it without needing a star chart, frankly.

instantfamily Fri 08-Feb-13 11:44:55

Rooney, who is Susan Garland - is she the guru that will make my mornings calmer as well?

OP, probably not good practice but completely understandable.

Psammead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:44:58

It's not child abuse, but it's not really ideal! Find a solution, as Pag said - talk to him about other options.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:45:54

x posts.

OP I think your problem might be that they know how wound up you are about it and that makes it all so much worse.

If they know you're fine with it if they don't get out in time, it's their problem and they have to decide what matters to them - if you just chilled about it instead of it being the be all and end all of life - maybe they would get that much needed grip as well?

I don't know why it is but people who stress to the max about going out in time, punishments etc etc seem to be the ones whose children play up the most.

LadyMargolotta Fri 08-Feb-13 11:46:10

This is what I would do:

I would take them to school a whole hour earlier then necessary (assuming there is early morning child care at the school).

Keep mornings simple. Get out of bed, clothes on, eat breakfast (if they don't have time to eat breakfast give them a banana in the car - no other option).

No washing (this happens the night before); no getting bags ready (this is done the night before); no TV, no phone, no iPad etc.

And for every time they are late, I would set the alarm clock ten minutes earlier.

Lancelottie Fri 08-Feb-13 11:46:15

Screen time and pocket money BTW don't seem sufficiently connected to the offence in this case (and I think he owes his brother his pocket money for the foreseeable future).

imo yabu

i can't figure how you let it get to 5 minutes before you have to leave and all you've done is keep 'telling him' to get on.

are you afraid of him?

there'd come a point where i'd be saying right, come on - are you getting up the stairs and getting dressed or am i carrying you like a baby? get him up the stairs and hand each piece of clothing to him if needs be - threaten that there will be no tv after school and he'll be in bed by 6pm if he wants to behave like this etc etc.

in fact a million other things you could have done before it getting to 5 minutes before leaving and resorting to jumping from asking to throwing water.

this is weird imo.

Lancelottie Fri 08-Feb-13 11:48:57

Hah - I'm bagging your idea about the '10 minutes earlier for every offence', LadyM.

Not that DS is awoken by alarm clocks anyway. That boy could sleep through the last trump.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:50:06

Sorry, Sarah Garland not Susan. this was the first book we got. There are many others.

Not a guru, just an author with some insight into what family life is really like.

Blatherskite Fri 08-Feb-13 11:50:10

I would..

Set alarms earlier. Put one in each room, make them loud and get up when they go off and start turning on lights, opening curtains and talking loudly/banging around until they're awake. The clocks can go back once they can prove they can be up and out on time. Put alarms far enough away from the bed that they have to get out to switch them off. Put another outside their doors.

Behaviour in the mornings affects treats in the evenings. Attitiude, messing around and making everyone late means no PC/Xbox/Wii/Favourite program/after school treat. Whatever means something to them.

Let them be late. Having to sign in late and getting into trouble with their teachers might shame them into trying harder.

what this reads as is that you said in an ineffective manner, 'come on, get ready for school'. then didn't follow it up. then repeated same ten mins later with no result and no follow up. ad infinitum till there was no time left (and in between presumably just ignoring that nothing is being done). then when your ineffective half arsed approach hadn't worked you suddenly realised the time, lost the plot and threw water over him.

it doesn't sound that grown up.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 11:51:31

By washing I am talking about face, hands and teeth. They bath in the evening.

The talking I have done until I am blue in the face!

MrsMushroom Fri 08-Feb-13 11:51:43

Omg it was a bit of water...not a vat of acid! I dread to think what some kids would do if they're parented so preciously!

My DD is 8 and wont get out of bed sometimes....I drag the duvet off and stand there tapping her and repeating GET UP GET UP GET UP!

If OPs son won't dress himself what's she to do? Ask him nicely? People on here are always suggesting people take their DC to school in their PJs if they wont get ready...now THAT'S humiliating!

He wont avoid dressing again tomorrow I bet.

DrSeuss Fri 08-Feb-13 11:51:48

I teach 11-16 year olds and we once had a mum pull up, chuck a pajama clad kid out of the car then march into Reception with a bag of uniform. She then left. We thought she was fantastic and the kid turned up on time in the future!

MariusEarlobe Fri 08-Feb-13 11:52:00

My dd is like this, every days a battle ground of me hurrying her along.
On my day off I'd had enough and gave her three warnings of time.
She still faffed so I left her to it. (She's up at six, everything's laid out ready, school is a few doors down)I offered help and was refused.

I gave her another warning at 8.50 and again offered help and was refused.

She came in ready to go at 9.40, I showed her time and she went mad because I always end up dressing her and running and this time I refused to.

She had to explain to head why she was late and apologise to teacher.

Whoknowswhocares Fri 08-Feb-13 11:53:18

For a 14 year old, I would reverse the drop offs so the little ones weren't late and let him get a detention
Plus remove access to computers or suchlike for the afternoon/evening of the offence
I'm hardcore though, my kids are now 19 and 16 and have both said they wished I'd smacked them, cos it would have been over quick and it really hurt them for me to remove the x-box! grin

MrsMushroom Fri 08-Feb-13 11:53:25

DrSeuss there we go....another example of people thinking it's ok to send a child out in nightwear...that is very humiliating and most kids would opt for a splash of water rather than that!

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 11:53:36

If OPs son won't dress himself what's she to do?

Not chuck water over him for starters grin

CremeEggThief Fri 08-Feb-13 11:55:34

Not kind or pleasant, but understandable, as a one-off. I know what it's like to feel at the end of my tether with the stress of a 10 year old DS and a school run. In fact, a few times I've been stressed out for the whole day with the amount of shouting we've both engaged in sad.

Let's hope he learns his lesson!

what's she to do?

give up i guess. not bother being a parent. just put her hands in the air and say he won't do what i tell him so there's nothing i can do.

ffs.

parent - that's what she's meant to do.

Oxford - opposite to me then! My mother never raised her voice or shows her feelings or praised us at all, still doesn't. Trying to have a conversation is nigh on impossible, my father left us in the end but I hardly blame him tbh. I wish she had sometimes as it was equally damaging to me to have this cold, non person as a mother.

Apologies - we both have had difficult experiences in opposite directions.

MrsMushroom Fri 08-Feb-13 11:59:03

Well parenting can include the odd shock tactic. Why is it ok to take a child out in his pyjamas....humiliating him in front of his peers....rather than chuck a bit of water on them?

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 11:59:09

Why though are any of these punishments even necessary?

I must be really lucky and have ace kids I think. They want to be ready and we work at it together, it's not a war, I suppose I understand that if they didn't want to do it, there'd be a reason for that and I respect that. Say if they have trouble with other kids or the work or something...and they you sort that out.

If they just don't want to go to school, full stop, then you need to look at why, and if they do but are just reluctant to get ready then you have to put it to them that it's their choice and so you'll not force them.

I dunno, it just seems so bizarre that people are scrapping with their kids over this issue. There are so many other things you could be fighting about!

Agree though with other posters, organisation is key!!

SocialClimber Fri 08-Feb-13 11:59:32

I would suggest that if this is a daily occurence, then you are getting up too late.

The only time I have stressed mornings is when I get up too late. If my kids don't hear me get up, they don't stir. So if I'm up late, they're up late. If your kids are getting up before you and they still aren't ready by the time you need to leave, I'd ask you if you stay in bed after they have risen?

CartedOff Fri 08-Feb-13 12:00:59

If they won't get up you could start taking their favourite items out of their room in five minute increments? Every five minutes that they aren't up, they lose another treasured toy or book or something along those lines.

MrsMushroom Fri 08-Feb-13 12:01:47

rooney congratulations on your unusual children. hmm It's not necessarily that children don't want to go to school...some of them are easily distracted or find getting dressed a pain....just because yours want to be on time, does not mean other people are bad parents or that their DC re unhappy.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 12:02:28

Crikey I stay in bed sometimes when they get up - depends when it is and how zombified I am by the baby being awake from 12-5am grin

I'll drag my arse out of bed at latest by 7.45 and we'll be out by 8.15, but normally I'm up at 7ish with them.

Breakfast is always had either in front of the tv or in the car. But it works.

instantfamily Fri 08-Feb-13 12:02:52

thanks, Rooney!

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 12:04:12

'just because yours want to be on time, does not mean other people are bad parents or that their DC re unhappy. ' Did I say that?

I'm a dreadful parent in many ways. I'm just tryng to work out what we do that is different, to avoid this sort of morning scenario. I am sorry if it sounded smug. It's so rare I find anything about being a mum that I am any use at...

Whoknowswhocares Fri 08-Feb-13 12:05:30

Rooney.....my kids were always happy to go to school and never late. I was offering advice on a more general 'what to do when they misbehave'
Unless of course your children have never been disobedient about anything which even if you stated I'd struggle to believe

MrsMushroom Fri 08-Feb-13 12:06:34

Rooney it is doubtful that you do anything differently...children are individuals and some, like yours will be happy to get ready. Others, like the OPs will not.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 12:07:55

No of course I wouldn't state that, it would be totally untrue.

appletarts Fri 08-Feb-13 12:08:32

It feels wrong because it was.

Agree with above, it's abusive.

Rooneyisalwaysmoaning Fri 08-Feb-13 12:09:15

Maybe you are right MrsMushroom.

WilsonFrickett Fri 08-Feb-13 12:09:34

Separate them. One in your room, one in another (boring) room. They're clearly winding each other up and encouraging each other to muck about so divide and conquer.

I'm totally not judging you for the water btw - I hate the morning stress and I only have one - but shouting doesn't work, you only end up escalating your own behaviour (as happened today) so you need to find a better way forward.

How to talk so children will listen is often recommended on here?

i don't think rooney necessarily has 'unusual' children!

i find the idea of a child ignoring you and you feeling powerless (besides resorting to crazy behaviour at the last minute) to get them to do the most basic things unusual personally.

if i couldn't even get my child to get dressed of a morning i'd be looking at the bigger picture of what the hell was going on.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 12:10:52

Agree with above, it's abusive

It isn't, but it's ineffective, unnecessary and inappropriate.

in terms of practical advice if things really have gotten this ridiculous at home and you can't deal with it - enlist the help of their teachers. point out what's going on and ask them to collaborate with you in punishing them at school for being late and let their behaviour lead to them being late a couple of times.

this only works if they have a bit more respect for school than home obviously.

appletarts Fri 08-Feb-13 12:12:07

It's an attack. It's abusive.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 12:12:17

if i couldn't even get my child to get dressed of a morning i'd be looking at the bigger picture of what the hell was going on

that's a really good point

ResponsibleAdult Fri 08-Feb-13 12:13:02

OP, just for clarity I have a 14yo and an 11yo, both have to ready to leave the house at 7.25am.
1. Do not negotiate with terrorists
2. Have everything prepared the night before, shoes out, bags packed, phone charged and now in pocket
3. Identify what slows you all down, then change it. We moved our toothbrushes down two floors.
4. If they don't respond try rewards: screen time; downloads etc and sanctions: withdraw above
5. If they are late let them get told off/ have detention
6. Finally, be wicked, set the clocks back, get them up early, take them to school "on time" then make them wait outside for an hour. V boring waste of time, rather like you losing your rag every morning. They can watch all the other kids who get their arses into school on time, might even see some friends and want to get in early (my neighbours boys did that with mates for extra football before school, even in the deep mid winter)
7. Repeat stage 1-6 if they do it again.
Once drove DD to Scouts. She got lippy in the back of the car. Asked her not to speak to me in that tone. She did it again. We got to Scouts, she asked for the first and ONLY TIME, what was I going to do about it, while she waved at one of her friends.
I child locked the doors, wound down window, said in loud voice within earshot of a number of other kids, to aforementioned friend."DD will not be coming this evening because she was rude to her Mum". Turned the car in exaggerated noisy uuey, went home.', no milk and biscuits, straight to bed. No discussion, no rant, no shouting,no pleading,nothing. "Go to bed now, I am too cross to talk to you" hand on hip, extended arm, pointy gesture. See point 1.
Never happened again because she was so embarrassed.
ALWAYS make it clear you are more stubborn than your children
NEVER do anything you wouldn't think reasonable if done to you, water a case in point, I think.

MadderHat Fri 08-Feb-13 12:13:12

One option a friend did was to have treat timers with 5 minute cards on a velcro strip on the wall, one for each child (it's a blended family and there are 5 children). Also were clear clocks around the house and clear timetables for what needed to be done when. The littler children had extra help and there was plenty of time for each task which were things like get out of bed, get dressed, brush teeth, put lunch in bag etc. She also had an alarm clock set to I think 10 minutes before it was time to go - i.e. rushing time.
Every time her children went past the time on their personal timetable for doing stuff (and she noticed) they lost a card from their strip. They could visually see themselves losing them. The treat timers covered computer, TV, Wii etc. They got reset each night. The older children were not allowed to be in the same room as the TV if the younger ones had TV time left and older ones didn't, so they didn't get treat-by-proxy (especially as they badgered channel choice). It only took a week of really strict enforcing for it to start to work well, but she still has it there because it also controls the screen time amount and they can earn extra time or lose time for bad behaviour.

ReneandGeorgetteMagritte Fri 08-Feb-13 12:13:54

I don't understand posts like this really- it's like the parent forgets that they are the ones in charge.

OP you need to take control in a calmer way. What would your DS be upset at missing out on?

For us it was a getting out of bed in time issue, so for every minute that DS laid in bed when he should be getting up and ready, he went to bed 10 minutes earlier that night. It didn't take long and it just took one simple explanation that this was what would happen and then making sure it did. He changed his ways pretty quickly.

Mrs Jay - actually laughed out loud at you stabbing a blow up chair to death. Your kids faces must've been priceless!

cherrycherry41 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:15:22

a bit of h2o never hurt anyone!

appletarts Fri 08-Feb-13 12:15:29

Consider this.... If this post involved a woman and partner and he had done this to her everyone would be saying red flag womens aid etc.

LadyMargolotta Fri 08-Feb-13 12:16:29

ResponsibleAdult - Totally agree with you. We have tooth brushes upstairs as well as downstairs. And glad to see we have the same idea about taking them to school an hour early!

splashymcsplash Fri 08-Feb-13 12:16:31

Reading this I am not sure what I think.

I had flu, single mum, no one else to ask, and I asked my mum to help with my baby (around a year old then), she refused even tugh she livesd less than an hour away. Being reminded of it still makes me hurt. I was so sick I could hardly stand up and just had to put dd in front of cbeebies all day as I could do nothing. Of course dd wasn't happy with this.

Oblomov Fri 08-Feb-13 12:16:34

Am reading with interest because I have a 9 year old who gets up at the crack of dawn and is dressed, brushed teeth, had his own breakfast by the time I am opeining my eyes. But he then plays minecraft. So at the end the warnings escalate. 4 year old is like me and prefers to lie in till the last possible minute. saying that we all get up earlier rather than later. and I do give warnings, of 'right, 5 minutes boys', 'we are leaving now, lets go'. 'Right, I am startign to get a bit cross, lets go NOW !!'

splashymcsplash Fri 08-Feb-13 12:18:18

Oops wrong thread

Oh god, some people are going way OTT. Chucking a tiny amount of water over a 10 year old boy who won't get dressed in the morning is hardly an attack or abusive. Quite frankly, I think any one who has suffered real abuse would be a bit bloody insulted really........... fair enough, if this was a regular occurence and OP was chucking shit loads of water over her DC on a daily basis but as a one off?? If anyone says their kids never frustrate them and they havent at least relatiated even once, sorry, I dont believe it.

Seriously its no hanging offence!

honestly - back to basics. do your children respect you? if not, why not. what are you doing/being/saying or what is your relationship with your partner being/doing/saying that gives them the impression that you are just background noise to be ignored.

do you expect to be respected? do you feel like the adult in your home? if not why not and how can you sort that out?

have you sat down and discussed this with your children? have you pointed out that (in appropriate terms) they are taking the piss out of you and it's not acceptable and if it continues there will be consequences? what are the consequences of taking the piss out of you?

when they do this what are the consequences? when you say get ready and they ignore you what happens? do you take it down to absolute face to face basics of excuse me, i am talking to you and you are ignoring me and i will not have it! now you will go and do x. and what happens if you do? will they actually in your face ignore you? tell you to get lost? what?

there is zero point low level nagging in the background if they don't respect it. everything STOPS to address that they are ignoring you and that is not an option. everything STOPS until they do as they're told.

you have to have boundaries.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 12:20:12

Stay in bed after they've risen - ha. I have a 2 year old who is up no later than 6. They are very happy at school so much so that I did not move schools when we moved miles away when they were in year 3 and henceforth have to drive them. They want to go, they just can't be bothered to get ready and don't care about any consequences because they aren't any from the school's pov.

I think my problem may be unusual in that I have very rambunctious! twin boys who love to wrestle, fight and just talk about nonsense together rather than do anything they actually have to do. They seem to feed of each other's hyperness! One is being assessed for ADD. A single boy would have been easier to deal with but short of getting rid of one of the little blighters, I hold my hands up I must be abusive appletarts.

and we couldn't take our kids to school an hour early anyway...for a start I don't get up early enough and also, school would not allow it smile

Oblomov Fri 08-Feb-13 12:20:59

"It's an attack. It's abusive"
hmm
No. I disagree.

CaseyShraeger Fri 08-Feb-13 12:22:20

Rooney I think your big difference is that your DCs' primary school does have consequences for the children for being late. When they know that if they are late nothing whatsoever will come of it at school even down to no one looking even a bit cross it's harder to motivate them.

valiumredhead Fri 08-Feb-13 12:22:22

They seem to feed of each other's hyperness!

Divide and conquer as suggested up thread.

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 12:22:43

Ffs
It s not abusive.
Stop minimising abuse.

Pagwatch is very wise - her first post on this thread said it all, for me.

Most of us have done something that we have regretted later - that is perfectly normal, imo. What matters is how StuckForAUserName handles it now.

On other threads from mumsnetters with similar problems getting their children to get ready for school in the morning, people have told the child that, if they don't get ready in time, they will be going to school in their pj's - and have followed through if neccessary. I think that this, allied to the things that Pagwatch suggested, and the regular warnings (30 minutes til we have to leave, 20 minutes etc etc), could help you, OP.

And don't beat yourself up too much. What you did may not have been the best way to deal with the situation, but you are only human, and it is bloddy stressful doing the school run. I would apologise to him for the water throwing, explain why you were so frustrated with the situation and his behaviour, and then talk with him about how things can change in the future.

LadyMargolotta Fri 08-Feb-13 12:23:00

Even if there is no before school child care, I like ResponsibleADults idea of sitting and waiting in the car until it is open.

OP - if you are up with a toddler at 6am anyway, I really would get your twin boys up and out of the house by 7am.

It is possible to walk to school?

No YANBU!!!!
It was water. Stop beating yourself up about it.
As parents we often do things as a knee jerk reaction. It's life!!!
But.... I would set all the clocks at a different time while they are in bed. Give yourself that extra 20-30 minutes.
I do it for myself in my own house.
I've thrown water on exH in the past to wake him up and get him out of bed.

instantfamily Fri 08-Feb-13 12:23:44

I second the suggestion to put them in separate rooms, then. Have you tried, OP?

pfft we've got triplets in our family. their mother hasn't used it as an excuse for having no respect from or responsibility for the behaviour of them.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 12:25:10

And I was abused as a child. Never, ever late for school though as I was desperate to leave the house. Never taken to school after age 7 either.

So, yes I am pretty soft, find it hard to stick to my guns and all that as I don't WANT my DCs to ever feel like me that is why I judge myself constantly, have enormous guilt issues and wanted others pov.

amothersplaceisinthewrong Fri 08-Feb-13 12:25:17

I would put this child in the car in his underpants and take him to school in them.

Don't' blame you for the water though, in a fit of exasperation I might have done the same!

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 12:26:05

Consider this...
What if we had a post about the man always choosing what a woman wore or what they had for dinner.

Abusive.

A mother choosing a two year old's clothes and telling them to finish thier dinner...abusive?

This mother chucked a bit of water at her loved and cared for child. He is feed, cherished and cared for.
He does not become abused when some is chucked at him

WorriedTeenMum Fri 08-Feb-13 12:27:12

When mine were at Primary I found the threat of 'if you arent dressed then you will go as you are' quite effective especially as I was quite capable of carrying out the threat!

On the whole, preparation the night before helps a lot. Fewer distractions in the morning and (thinking of lancelottie) constant nagging through breakfast helps with dreamy DS (14).

Also helps that I have a parade ground voice. I bellow up the stairs and three streets away children find themselves inexplicably launched from their beds!

but stuck it can be nearly as damaging to a child's long term wellbeing and coping skills in life to be too passive and not instill self discipline etc as it can to be too much so.

honestly boundaries, clear limits, knowing where the line is and the security of knowing that line will be maintained is GOOD for kids.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 12:27:20

SwallowedAfly are you the mother of these triplets?

Fakebook Fri 08-Feb-13 12:27:48

Wrong wrong wrong! Stupid thing to, and it shows you've lost control of the situation.

It eems like you've desensitised your children to your anger and they play up on purpose, because you getting angry isn't a big deal anymore.

I'd use the half term as a clean slate. Stop shouting at them for a start. You need to show them you're in control. If you do feel anger, just count to ten. Give three warnings and then follow through threat calmly.

I may be talking crap, as I only have a 5 year old and 1 year old, but from experience, my mum only ever shouted when we really really pushed the boundaries and it was something that scared me shitless because she would never lose it like that. That gave me an incentive to not upset her because a happy mum was nicer than an angry mum.

Doyouthinktheysaurus Fri 08-Feb-13 12:28:17

Yo have my sympathise op in how challenging it can be to get children to listen.

I have dses of 10 and 8, they can do that thing of talking or playing amongst themselves and completely ignoring me, even if I'm stood next to themhmm Drives me to distraction, and I can only imagine it must be 10 times worse with twins!

The only suggesting I have is as others have said, split them up! One in one room, one in the other, don't come out until ready. No computer after school if they don't get ready by x time would work with mine....

SayCoolNowSayWhip Fri 08-Feb-13 12:29:12

Exactly what MrsDeVere said - you can't compare treating a child with how you'd treat your partner.

Plus how is throwing a bit of water over someone abuse? If my DH did that to me, I'd either be pissed off or amused (depending on my mood) but neither reaction would have me ringing the abuse helplines.

instantfamily Fri 08-Feb-13 12:29:18

Looks like you are not doing anyone a favour by being soft, though, Stuck.

i'm not saying your children are abused btw! just saying they lack boundaries and respect and that you are doing yourself no favours in being ineffective to the point of desperation.

you can take charge and be the boss in your home without turning into a bully or being like your own abusive parents - honestly! i can be quite strict but it's reasonable and fair and about a relationship of respect and cooperation - being on the same team. my mother was just a nasty, fucking bully! it wasn't reasonable, it wasn't consistent and it was nothing to do with a relationship and cooperation.

it really, really isn't a question of being abusive or being a doormat. maybe that's something you need to explore and look at x

ReneandGeorgetteMagritte Fri 08-Feb-13 12:30:18

You may have boisterous twins, it may be harder, but you have still forgotten who is in charge.

Sokmonsta Fri 08-Feb-13 12:31:43

While I think you lost your temper been there myself so not hoicking judgy pants your Ds may realise now that when you say something, you mean it.

Dd learnt that when I made her put one of her toys in the bin for repeated misbehaviour with it and warnings.

Maybe next time tell him he's going in whatever he is, or isn't, wearing. As long as he's got it to put on when he gets to school if he really does make you follow through, I doubt it's an experience he will want to repeat.

Sorry - have just reread, and I missed the bit where you said you didn't think taking them to school in their pjs would be an option for you, so you need to find a different sanction.

MolehillAlchemy Fri 08-Feb-13 12:32:58

OP - the threat of a bucket of water over me was a standard threat when I was a teenager. I struggled every morning to actually wake up, and my mother resorted to this threat pretty much every day. Occasionally she got as far as bringing the bucket through the bedroom door, and would start flicking it on my face.

I'm sure she could have been more imaginative with her negotiations, but I'm not sure I would have taken any notice!

It was water, I understood the threat, it was totally non-harmful, would have been shocking (cold), and inconvenient (wet bedding), and probably quite funny if she had actually followed through. I don't feel abused at all, and have even employed the water-pistol technique with my own children (who thought it was hilarious, and would sometimes misbehave just so they could get squirted!).

instantfamily Fri 08-Feb-13 12:34:36

ahem, I do have triplets, OP. and I find we don't get out of the house earlier or later whether I shout or not. I do shout. often, unfortunately. But every once in a while I resolve not to and it makes the mornings better.

SwallowedAFly - maybe the triplets in your family have different characters to the OP's twins - I have heard that children can be different.

I personally wouldnt have done this - I admit its not the end of the world though.

My 8 year old can be like this to the point where some days I ahve to stand next to her handing her each bit of clothing. The key in my mind is strict supervision. I think probably the ironing needs to be done the day before, plus gettting all food clothes bags ready sp all you have to do in the morning is get them dressed. You can be all over it then and he wont have a chance to be late or tp spend time faffing about in his underwear.

I have all the children lined up with their clothes in the living room they are all dressed in a line (8 year old dd is only now starting to get dressed in her room but if she isnt done by the time the younger ones are dressed then i go and stand there until she is). It takes about 15 minutes to dress them all like that.

ResponsibleAdult Fri 08-Feb-13 12:37:48

Lady Margotta, EXACTLY, keep them with you in the car until the time you should be arriving. Don't offload to pre school club.
OP, IMHO all boys at all ages pre 14 are rambunctious.
Another trick is to take them to the park, make them walk to school, go on bikes with a detour to burn off some energy. For a long time I looked a complete idiot, me, 5yo on tag along, all book bags, packed lunch and PE Kit on one side of handlebars, dog lead in other free hand and 7yo on scooter out in front.
There are solutions, get creative, always be one step ahead.
Refer back to 1. Do not negotiate with terrorists.

no i'm their aunt stuckfor but very closely involved in their lives. for a year i was the person who picked them up from school, walked them home, got them to do their homework, get changed, put clothes in washing machine and eat their dinner etc. so no i'm not their mum but yes i know what solo charge in peak busy times is like.

you know yourself with multiples organisation and staying on top of it is key. whether that's feeding babies or dealing with fights or trying to keep on top of toys and clutter. i found it easier than my sister to do the after school stuff and she was really grateful because no nanny or childminder had ever pulled it off in such a way that she came home to peace and organisation.

i found it a bit like a military operation - you will do this, then this and THEN you can have this. whose bag is still on the floor - why are you still in your uniform - where is your PE kit etc with nothing moving forward till the basics were sorted. and repeat! over and over. and eventually it really is just a given that they have to do x before y. one of them was and still is as dizzy as fuck and he needs nudging every step of the way. it's hard work! but it IS worth it if you want a smooth home life.

as miserable as it sounds you may have to be the military operation commander for a while - right we're up! now what have we got to do? breakfast. have you finished your breakfast? right what's next? teeth and hands and face please then you can have 20mins watching telly before you get dressed. right!! time! clothes on! get to it! come on, crack on and you'll still have ten minutes before we have to get shoes on and get out of here. you are the energy and the driving force and YOU are the boss - you can do it.

just try tomorrow - high energy - cheerful but assertive - mr motivator mode if needs be.

nothing slips. you notice everything and you chivvy, joke, put on voices, whatever it takes to be the centre of what is going on and the driver of how it happens.

it doesn't have to be shouting or being mean (i get that you don't want to be that parent) but you can command a room of kids without having to go there. if you believe you're the boss then tehy'll believe you too! i say that as someone who has taught teenagers in mega rough schools! honestly - you're the boss and if you believe it they really, really will do too.

you wake up tomorrow and you say right! this is a new day and we're going to do better at mornings from now on because i want us to be happy and smooth running and not arguing and fighting and doing each other's heads in. so, this is what we're going to do....

be it.

tinkerbelle31 Fri 08-Feb-13 12:46:31

I'm sorry but I think it's funny my Dad did it to once when I was younger, I just wouldnt get out of bed I was being a lazy moo, shocked me at the time but by tea time that day we were laughing about it and it's a running joke in the family it's called getting a bed shower instead of a bed bath.

Don't panic the towns folk are not going to knock down your door with pitch forks.
But i would have a chat with him alone when he comes in from school explain what you did was wrong and that you are sorry and ask how he feels about it.

I wasn't worried about it happening again and I sure as hell wasn't scared of him because of it it's now 24 yeas later and is a funny family memory

My Dhs mum tells me that when he was a teenager she used to go in his room and actually drag his mattress off his bed (it was easier than dragging him off the mattress! He tells me he used to just go back to sleep on the floor. He can still be a lazy arse !

i agree with tinkerbelle about the after school chat btw. i'd point out - look! that is how mad you've driven me with this behaviour. that is how messed up our mornings have gotten and a clear sign of HOW MUCH we need to change them.

i'd use it as a full stop and evidence of the importance of changing things together to do it better.

Chubfuddler Fri 08-Feb-13 12:48:50

You've talked till you're blue in the face, you say op

AT him, I'd imagine. Have you listened?

OP, what consequences are there for their bad behaviour?

FreckledLeopard Fri 08-Feb-13 12:49:55

Having never had boisterous children I can only sympathise. I doubt anyone could manhandle two ten-year-old boys up the stairs and physically dress them (unless perhaps they were 6ft 6 rugby players). I can't physically make DD do as I say - she's almost 12 and virtually as big as me.

What are the long-term consequences of them pratting about? For example, they're late for school - school does nothing. What sanctions might work at home? So, they lose all TV, X-box, computer privileges - would that make them think twice? Take fuse out if necessary and hide toolkit so they can't re-wire plugs or anything.

What about dull chores? Or writing an essay on why they must do as they're told? Are they sporty? Do they go to football or hang out with mates? Can you clamp down and ban that until behaviour improves?

i bet you they're bright. i bet they don't need dull punishments and will respond better to the idea that you are all a team and they're fucking it up for all of you and all of you have to work together better to make things work.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Fri 08-Feb-13 12:51:52

Yanbu. You showed him that you will not tolerate his disobedience and fucking around.

another example of people thinking it's ok to send a child out in nightwear...that is very humiliating and most kids would opt for a splash of water rather than that!

Or perhaps they might get ready when told to in future.

anotheryearolder Fri 08-Feb-13 12:55:01

Will your DT go to secondary school next year ?
In which case OP they will be responsible for all their kit,books,organisation and getting there on time - on the bus ?

I would use this as an opportunity to get your DT to be more independent and make them take responsibility rather than you.
They are mucking about because you are taking the responsibility not them- you are getting stressed and they are not listening.
I would give them a stern talking to and inform them that they will be completely responsible for getting ready in the mornings.
Make them pack bags and lay out clothes the night before and check if they have done it.

Dont battle them -if they are late they will have to get to school under their own steam

amicissimma Fri 08-Feb-13 13:04:03

Besides the point about needing to get on with it in the morning, your DS has learned that if he pushes another person too far, he may get a reaction he doesn't like. Useful.

He has also learned that it is possible to lose your temper and do something out of character, but you still remain the same, basically decent and caring person. Useful.

If tonight you have a calm chat with him, acknowledging that you were wrong to lose control, pointing out that his morning behaviour is not tolerable and asking him how you can improve things together, he will also learn that it is OK to admit your mistakes, it is OK to say sorry, and that he shares responsibility for how mornings are in your house. All these are useful lessons.

Humans (including our DCs) are fallible. They are not wicked people because they don't behave perfectly all the time. It is good that they are aware of this.

ResponsibleAdult Fri 08-Feb-13 13:05:16

Ooooh, also kids behaviour doesn't get easier as they got older, it just gets different.
Temper tantrums not dealt with at 2, turn into massive strops at 14 when DC is bigger than you.
Friends who were similarly strict with little kids havecharming young adults.
Those who erred on the softer side now have kidult gits who know well enough from experience that their parents will actually give in. Balance of power all wrong.
Deal with it sooner rather than later.

LadyMargolotta Fri 08-Feb-13 13:13:02

Again, I agree with you ResponsibleAdult. My girls were the usual difficult toddlers getting them up and dressed and into nursery school - but we persevered, and now they are 9 and 7, are very well behaved and go to school on time every day.

My ds is 4 and every morning refuses to get dressed and into school. But he has to go, even if I have to hold him down to get him dressed, and carry him under my arm into school. I find it hard, but he has to learn, and he will learn.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 13:14:25

SwallowedAFly I was not impressed with your first few posts but I have warmed to you now. Thank you, your last few posts have very helpful.

I get so sick of the sound of my own voice I have resorted to making placards at one point with ' Get dressed please' and 'Now get your coat on' so I did not have to say the same thing again and again and again. Did not last long grin.

Yes, the poster who said that seeing me get wound up makes the DCs dig their heels in harder is correct. It has been this way for so long. I can remember being extremely stressed having a DH who worked nights and did not get back until late morning so I was up 20 million times a night with the twins as babies/toddlers on my own and then having to get up to get DD to school on time with one of them pooping or puking just as we needed to get out of the door, I can't remember ever being late with her though grin. I guess I am just in the habit of being stressed out about it.

thegreylady Fri 08-Feb-13 13:14:34

I think the water thing was understandable as a one off and I am glad it worked-much less harmful than a smack and something you can laugh about one day.
I only once resorted to extreme measures with my ds.He went to the school I taught at so we travelled in the car together.I had to leave by 8.15 at the latest.He dillied and allied so much that one mornig I said,"Right stay there then and I'll ask your teacher to come and collect you."
He knew the teacher would do it for me and he was mortified-he finished dressing in the car that day and I only had to look at my watch and mutter Mr xxxxx [teacher's name] and he would get a move on.
I know you cant do that but you could tell the school what you are planning and leave him behind [go back for him of course].

Lancelottie Fri 08-Feb-13 14:19:40

'Temper tantrums not dealt with at 2, turn into massive strops at 14 when DC is bigger than you.
Friends who were similarly strict with little kids have charming young adults.'

Ye-ess. Maybe. DS was a pretty charming toddler and primary child, actually. Then things went belly up at 12, eased for a while last year and seem to be tough again now.

It's not defiance (at least not until I start to harry him), it's infuriating, dawdly, irresponsible slowness.

Yes, I'll think about dropping him off after walking to the primary school. That would mean he's either ready for 8:05 or has to wait till 8:50 for a lift/get his bike out and get there in a similar time but with less stuff.

LisaMed Fri 08-Feb-13 14:57:44

Oblomov my ds who is six gets up at daft oclock to play minecraft. Then I need dynamite to get him off it to get ready, though he isn't too bad really once he starts moving.

When I am coaxing ds out of the door to the school he loves attending and we are going so slow we are overtaken by snails, I may be thinking cattle prod, but I am actually threatening him with tickles. I only have one, and he is a sweet lad, but he is six, and therefore his own person with his own ways. I keep the pressure up relentlessly but I make a huge joke and a giggle out of it all. I keep it light not for his sake but for mine, I don't have much sanity left and I owe it to myself to hang on to the last shreds while I can.

What consequences are there tonight for the delays this morning? I think that may be the key - and separate time outs. Good luck. I really understand how pressured you must have felt.

NTitled Fri 08-Feb-13 15:08:09

"I suppose I understand that if they didn't want to do it, there'd be a reason for that and I respect that."

Rooney, that's a bit irksome. Some children are just bloody minded and difficult. I have two who are eager to please and who get ready on time with everything packed and ready to go (I do all the night before stuff too, don't have the TV/computer on in the mornings etc etc etc) and one (a 10 yr old DS) who is simply difficult.

I have a 10 y old boy (SN, challenging in the mornings), two 8 y olds and a 12 y old. I've never thrown jugs of water over any of them, and I am Mrs Tough Love.

Two of them sometimes don't get dressed as quickly as they could. I use television as a bribe reward, so anyone who has finished their morning tasks (breakfast, dressing, teeth, packing bag) can watch television until it's time to leave for school.

DreamingofSummer Fri 08-Feb-13 15:15:30

Not unreasonable at all.

ironhorse Fri 08-Feb-13 15:31:50

im sitting laughing, its an excellent idea. me and my brother used to be like that and still are to a certain extent though i havent fought with him in my pants for a while grin its a bit of fun and better than a smack on the arse or a shouting at. if your kids are anything like me and my brother though beware - next time you want a long lie expect a glass of water to be thrown over you wink

TheCatIsEatingIt Fri 08-Feb-13 15:48:44

My stepdad once dripped cold water on my feet when I was refusing to get up for school. I giggled, got up, and was (mostly) better in future. It certainly wasn't abuse, I was being a brat!

Yanbu.

My Mum used to get me with a cold flannel when I refused to get out of bed, it was hilarious.

PolterGoose Fri 08-Feb-13 16:55:00

Could you play on their probable competitiveness? Eg set a time (half an hour before time to go?) by which they need to be ready, everything except shoes and coats, whichever is ready first gets control of the remote control until it is time to leave. Then, you give them a 5 minute warning of time to go, at time to go the first to get shoes and coat on gets the choice of where to sit in the car or chooses the music or something else instant and easy. Keep everything simple and provide immediate rewards.

SirBoobAlot Fri 08-Feb-13 17:07:20

Yes you were unreasonable. FFS. If you were faffing around, and your OH threw water over you, would that be okay?

Maybe try actually having a conversation with him rather than talking at him till you're blue in the face.

And your alternative is a slap. How very pleasant you sound.

Temper tantrums not dealt with at 2, turn into massive strops at 14 when DC is bigger than you.
Friends who were similarly strict with little kids havecharming young adults.

And sometimes your child is simply a contrary, stubborn little brat who simply doesn't respond to anything.

DS2 taught me not to be so smug about my parenting skills.

if you refer to your own child as a 'contrary, stubborn little brat' then i don't think you have got much to be smug about.

grovel Fri 08-Feb-13 17:21:46

swallowedAfly, glad your post smug.

grovel Fri 08-Feb-13 17:22:32

Glad your post wasn't smug.

if finding it yuk to hear people call their own child horrible names and doing the unfavourable comparison to siblings makes me smug then yep i'm smug as a smug thing.

Wold you like help with the broomstick that you appear to have stuck somewhere problematic, swallowedafly?

DS2 exhibits all bar one of the criteria for ODD. Which basically means he can be a contrary stubborn little brat. I don't cut him any slack and he is parented and loved exactly the same as his two siblings. If you think I love him any less deeply than the others you are hoisting your judgey pants up unnecessarily.

Had I had three children with the placid nature of DS1 I would have assumed I was a fantastic parent. DS2 taught me that an awful lot depends on the personality of the child and what works for one will not necessarily work for another.

i was pretty clear about what i was judging about and will stick with my right to an opinion on parenting. have heard too many people damaged by their parents labeling them horribly and comparing them to their siblings. whatever challenges your child presents you with i don't think labeling them 'a contrary, stubborn little brat' is good parenting.

If you read my post, I didn't actually label him at all.

Also, last time I checked, he isn't posting here or reading anything.

He isn't going to be damaged by anything to do with my parenting, thanks.

TattyDevine Fri 08-Feb-13 17:51:19

I might play devils advocate here and say in my mind its not whether you threw water or not but how you were as you did it, afterwards, etc.

So if you threw water, screamed, flounced off, yelled some more, said GET DRESSED I DONT CARE ITS WET, cried, he cried, you dragged him out the door, bad mood, silent in car/walk, hissed at him that you'd finish this conversation later as you stalked away from the school gate, much much worse than...

Cracked the shits and flung the water over him, saw his shocked expression, found the corner of your mouth was twitching uncontrollably, he sees this, you both burst out laughing, he mock complains his clothes are wet, you tell him to man up and put them on whilst stifling your giggles, he puts them on, you snort and raise your eyebrows and say, "you won't be doing that again will you buddy", you both chuckle, ruffle his hair, leave the house and move on.

Okay so maybe somewhere in between but see what I mean? Its all about context...

One reason he won't be damaged my my parenting is because I know what his personality is and accept that he has faults. I don't expect a perfect little robot (to steal a phrase from someone else's past "behaviour" thread)

Can't believe how many people think chucking a bit of water over a misbehaving child is abuse. Are your children water soluble?

And no, it wouldn't be abusive if my husband did it to me, either. hmm

MolehillAlchemy Fri 08-Feb-13 17:57:10

My lot were (and still are) like chalk and cheese, on a scale of saintly to demonic at times!

Some children have massive ..er.. personalities, and require a radically different approach to parenting.

I know that my children are totally different human beings, and that isn't down to me. It's hard-wired into them.

FauxFox Fri 08-Feb-13 18:04:01

I have twins.

Have you tried making it a competition? First one to get dressed gets 20p/to choose the music in the car on the way to school/a mini choc in the lunchbox or make it a week long tournament and the winner gets to pick the weekend activity. Do you think that might work?

And don't stress all these posters telling you to get organised/be up earlier. If you haven't got a child that can waste indefinite amounts of time (I have) you just can't imagine how resistant and annoying they can be.

Have a wine OP and start again next week.

IAmLouisWalsh Fri 08-Feb-13 18:10:11

YANBU if he remembers it and it works.

On a scale of 1 - 10, I can think of about 9.7 things you could have done that would be worse!

hugoagogo Fri 08-Feb-13 18:19:47

Immediate rewards are key; so tv or ds/ipod if dressed/washed/teeth/cleaned/fed/bags packed/shoes on.

I have also had success with dressing races.

It's not easy though.

Startail Fri 08-Feb-13 18:26:17

Oxford what world do you live in,

DCs need to get to school, there siblings need to get to school, there parents need to get to work.
If that means a jug of water or a slap on the backside so be it.
Sometimes there is time for perfect to the book parenting and sometimes there simply isn't.

You can negotiate star charts and rewards at 5pm, you can't at 8.30 am.

DD2 went through a phase of deciding the world revolved around at about 9 or 10.
I remember finally loosing it and telling her she was a selfish bitch.

Not nice and I'm not proud of myself, but her big sister didn't need to be waiting around while she faffed. (I can't remember where we were going. Not school, she hated being late for school and nagged everyone else).

Later we talked and she said she didn't like being called names and I agreed that I shouldn't, but I did finally get through to her that there was a limit to everyone's patience.

No she didn't get better overnight, she's almost 12 and gradually in the last year she's got better.

Their Y6 teacher was supper and understood how to give them a bit of independence and roles to fill.

I'm happy for her to go to the shop or stay home for the odd hour and she no longer feels quite so pushed about.

I was very naughty at school in Y5 mostly because I was bored to tears.
In Y6 we were streamed and DDad let my cycle to town, so I understand why this age is so hard.

Understanding doesn't necessarily mean you handle things perfectly, especially when DD1 is a much less firery character than me, DH or DD2.

DizzyZebra Fri 08-Feb-13 18:31:50

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Fri 08-Feb-13 18:39:39

^^ What TattyDevine the voice of reason, said.

Chandon Fri 08-Feb-13 18:53:12

Tatty has it there.

Now, the way I do it with the DC (. 8 and 10) is that we get up at 7, then if they are dressed, including shoes, they are allowed to pay on the WII for 20 minutes. But only if they are dressed. I have a nice quiet cup of tea by myself.

Then breakfast at 7:30, teeth, some faffing, they may well try to incorporate some hurdle jumping, karate moves and wrestling wink then leave at 8:15.

I find getting them dressed before breakfast and TV/computer to be working very well.

LetsFaceTheMusicAndDance Fri 08-Feb-13 18:53:42

So this was my method for getting DS2 to shift his easily distracted Aspergery arse (affectionate) in the morning:

Visual cues and a reward. I made a set of numbered cards and bought a few cheap wall clocks from Ikea - one for each room he needed to be in. They had numbers rather than Roman numerals on.

Card 1 I gave to him as I woke him in the morning. It had a clock face with the time 7.15 drawn on and the message 'Get out of bed by quarter past 7'. I drew a pic of him standing by the bed.

The other cards were on the table by his bed and took him thorough the morning in the same way - clock face, picture of task, instruction.

The last card said to give all the cards to mum by whatever time it was and there was a pic of whatever reward he had chosen that week. He had to bring each card to me separately by the time on the card for the first week though - to build the confidence/habit.

Worked a charm after cheerfully coaching him through the first few days.

No nagging/shouting needed.

Mornings had been a huge bone of contention and this really worked. He didn't need it for too long before he just did it without the cards.

I also used it briefly with my NT DS3 to good effect.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 19:06:47

Startail, I live in a world where parents are the adults and don't choose immature and unhelpful ways to parent their children that might get a result in that short instance but which ultimately teach them nothing about good behaviour nor offer solutions as to how to behave differently. It's really not hard to live here, the only entry qualifications required are having some semblence of maturity and self-awareness.

Dizzy, if you think the issue is about the volume of water then I am LMFAO. I am not perfect and neither is my child. Not lowering myself to throwing water over a child does not make me perfect, it's a pretty basic standard to hold yourself to, ffs. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world and the issue is not about how much water it was. The point is that addressing bad behaviour with bad behaviour teaches kids nothing but, erm, keep on demonstrating bad behaviour. It won't solve anything, it doesn't help the child work out better ways to behave, it just makes them wary that their mother, who they should trust above all people to feel secure with, can do something demeaning (even if it only slightly so) to them at random. That's why it is bad; the underlying points, not the water itself.

Can't believe that needs explaining.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 19:21:47

OxfordBags so you never lose your rag with your DC then ever and in all situations you have time to think up a reasoned and appropriate response do you? Well bloody lucky you. Are you a robot?

Do you only have one child? Boy or girl? Age? I am sure you put their probably excellent behaviour down to your excellent parenting skills as well don't you?

socharlottet Fri 08-Feb-13 19:32:37

God, what a way for a mother to behave!!!No wonder you have problems with him!

KatyTheCleaningLady Fri 08-Feb-13 19:33:09

In my experience, it's much easier to post a bunch of judgy-pants bullshit on the Internet than to actually parent.

socharlottet Fri 08-Feb-13 19:36:06

some of us can do both

KatyTheCleaningLady Fri 08-Feb-13 19:37:08

Well, the beauty of the Internet is that we'll never know!

socharlottet Fri 08-Feb-13 19:39:07

Not assaulting your child is a pretty low bar which I think most of us can manage to clear Katy

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 19:44:00

I would be so deeply ashamed of myself if I did this. Apart from the actual act of doing it, there are two things which worry me most:

Firstly, you warned him you would do it. This was a premeditated act. You didn't lose your rag and reach for the nearest thing (which would have been bad enough) but you actually thought it through and then did it.

Secondly, you think the only other option was a smack. Surely you can't mean this?

I think you need to look into parenting classes so you can that there were other options. They will also help you understand 'role modelling'.

This was a short term fix and does nothing to solve the problem.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 19:50:38

I'm not a robot, I'm certainly not perfect, I get angry like any normal person. It's just that, as socharlottet says, not throwing water or smacking a child is a pretty low bar to set yourself as a parent. If you thought it was acceptable you wouldn't have posted about it, would you? It's pretty fucking basic not to throw water on someone!

BarbJohnson5 Fri 08-Feb-13 19:51:53

Hahahah....Good. I hope he learned to have some respect for your rules. Kids can really test us and i probably would have done something similar too. I think i did that to my 14 year old daughter last year, after telling her to wake up x amount of times. It was either the water or i throw something at her to get her out of the bed and i decided water was better. Now that she has a phone, she is responsible for waking herself up. Her two brothers wake up on the dot, but she's a lazy one. Don't feel guilty and bad about it. He deserved the wake up call. It won't harm him, just his growing ego.

FutTheShuckUp Fri 08-Feb-13 19:54:45

I think its quite funny actually. And I work in a job where child protection is a big thing. A one off throwing a small amount of water at a child who is being persistantly defiant certainly wouldn't make me think 'omg child abuser alert'

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 19:56:27

"I hope he learned to have some respect for your rules"

How is throwing a cup of water over him going to teach him about respect?

More than likely it's achieved the exact opposite.

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 19:57:14

"I think its quite funny actually. And I work in a job where child protection is a big thing."

God help us all.

FestiveFrollockingFrenzy Fri 08-Feb-13 19:59:13

I think its best to refrain from treating your child in a manner which you would not want them to treat someone else, unless its absolutely necessary. Reward might work better long term. Although, we all lose it a little bit sometimes...

chandellina Fri 08-Feb-13 19:59:15

I think people need to get off their high horse. No one is perfect and the fact is no one got hurt and I don't think the child will go on to be a serial water abuser.

deleted203 Fri 08-Feb-13 20:00:29

I have never thrown water over a child...but I have shoved child, clothes and dressed siblings into the car in the morning and driven them to school screeching, 'I am going to deliver you to your classroom in your PANTS and you can let the teacher dress you! All your classmates will laugh!'

Child will be frantically dressing itself in the car, believe me grin.

FestiveFrollockingFrenzy Fri 08-Feb-13 20:00:55

OP asked for opinions...its not about high horses.

CheerfulYank Fri 08-Feb-13 20:02:53

I don't think the water thing is a huge deal. Not ideal, but to call it abuse is ridiculous.

Could you try putting them to bed very very early one night? Just say pleasantly, "you can't seem to get ready in the morning, you must be too tired! So tonight you can go to bed right after dinner."

DS gets to play Angry Birds after he's dressed and ready. Would TV work?

chandellina Fri 08-Feb-13 20:03:43

I see a lot of people high above the op looking down.

Porkster Fri 08-Feb-13 20:09:36

Well I think it was a pretty awful thing to do and your son will no doubt remember this into adulthood.

I have a 10 year old though, and he ambles through life without urgency, ever.

I have made it very clear to him that he has to be dressed, fed, guitar practised, teeth cleaned by 8.15. The next 25 minutes are his to do what he chooses.

FestiveFrollockingFrenzy Fri 08-Feb-13 20:10:34

I dont, i see constructive suggestions about alternative ways to deal with the scenario, seeing as OP wasnt happy with their actions

FutTheShuckUp Fri 08-Feb-13 20:18:15

Yes god help you all Annie. I wish you were in such a job so social services would collapse under the weight of referals for loving parents doing silly but totally unabusive things to their children.

FutTheShuckUp Fri 08-Feb-13 20:21:16

Whatever next.
Mother sent me to my room- oh my god thats abusive, imagine if your husband confined you to your room?
Mother confiscated my favourite toy- omg thats abusive- imagine if your husband took your personal possessions in order to punish you?
Mother sent me to school in my underpants- OMFG!!! Would you like it if your HUSBAND took you to work semi naked in order to humiliate you? [sad/shocked face explosion]

MrsDeVere Fri 08-Feb-13 20:23:25

I work in child protection too.
Unless the water was hot
Unless this is part of a bigger picture of abuse
Unless the water was in a bath and the child was forced into it

this is NOT abuse and its bloody stupid to suggest it is.

You may not agree with it or even approve. You may never, ever do it to your child, you may think it is a terrible way of dealing with a stroppy child...

but its not abuse.

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 20:24:19

I don't recall mentioning social services Fut.

I do find it bizarre though that someone in your position wouldn't offer constructive advice instead of just laughing.

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 20:25:13

I never mentioned abuse either.

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 20:26:04

Half of threads these days are taken up by people having to explain what they didn't say.

FeistyLass Fri 08-Feb-13 20:29:17

serial water abuser lol grin
Personally I only flick water on ds when I'm playing with him but I don't think you were being unreasonable or abusive.
I hated mornings when I was a child (and still do). I remember my dad flicking water on me to get me up one morning. I thought it was quite funny - a bit like a water fight (I much preferred it to his other technique of wiggling my ear when I was trying to go back to sleep!) smile

i'm another who specifically said i didn't feel the OP was an abuser but i am apparently in the high horse looking down brigade it seems.

honestly not very high up - far far far from perfect but i would consider losing control of my home and myself to such an extent that i threw water over my child as a means to get them to get dressed to be a very bad sign. i'd seriously have to have lost the plot to the degree of needing to see a doctor to do that.

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 20:51:20

The Op didn't lose the plot or her rag.

She took a controlled and considered decision.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 20:51:21

I'm getting a lot of flack on here, but I haven't said it was child abuse. Ironic that the people saying others are getting on their high horse and crying abuse are... getting on their high horse to overexaggerate what people who don't condone the OP's actions are saying. Fucking Pegasus is needed here! grin

Saying something was crappy parenting in that moment is not the same as crying abuse. Same as there are not only 2 options to chivvy a kid into getting ready: smacking or throwing water over them! Some people are worryingly unable to see or understand nuances and insistent on making 2+2=5 (I dunno if I'm being too ancient with that particular saying).

I am impatient and a right bad-tempered old cow, but I wouldn't throw water on or smack a coworker who was pissing me about making me late to go home, or do that to some twat farting about in front of me at the checkout, or to DH if he was driving me nuts. So I especially wouldn't do it to someone more vulnerable than me, dependent on me and who can only take a negative message from it.

Incidents like this are bad (not hugely, I must add for the 'if you suggest anything negative you are crying abuse' brigade) because they do not happen in isolation. You do this sort of thing once, you've given yourself permission to lower your standards and get that little kick that you won't admit to from the power you felt in the moment of throwing that water. And so you end up doing a series of minor crappy things that culminate in an overall picture of pretty across-board crappy parenting. It's the big picture, the long game. Parenting is not about getting what you want from the child in that specific, isolated moment no matter what it takes, it is all about the bigger picture and the long game. Things like chucking water or smacking do not work not only because they are cruel (again, not cruel like Rose West cruel. Sigh) and because you can't expect to change bad behaviour by being badly behaved yourself, it's because they do not teach the child how to behave better, they do not offer the child solutions about making better choices for themself. Oh yes, they might behave better after a while, out of a sullen, resentful wariness to avoid undesirable treatment, but that's not genuine good behaviour and it can affect how they treat others and react themselves, not just as kids, but for the rest of their lives. Or they might just behave better eventually because they matured and no thanks to the smacking or water throwing.

I'm not saying this single incident will and can do all that, I'm saying that repeated incidents of this ilk can do. That's been my point all along.

CarriedAwayAnnie Fri 08-Feb-13 20:54:09

Personally I think you talk a lot of sense Oxford.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 20:55:21

Thank you, CarriedAway (the tenner's in the post wink).

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 20:59:05

OxfordBags I repeat how many DCs do you have, sexes and ages.

If you only have one and they are under 5, your opinion means nothing and when you have experienced the realities of parenting 4 children you may have the right to judge me rather than spout a load of shit on the internet. How DO you discipline your DC/s, would you do the same to your DH/colleague. What a load of bollocks. Do not compare young children to adults who can be reasoned with.

StuckForAUserName Fri 08-Feb-13 21:02:30

And no SOME 10 year olds can't be reasoned with. I was having a wobble this morning as I am in therapy for my own childhood abuse and really should not have posted instead of trusting myself that my momentary lapse would not have any significant impact on my DC.

I bid you goodnight.

chandellina Fri 08-Feb-13 21:14:46

I appreciate what Oxford is saying. Yet I'm not convinced you can or should always treat your children like adults. I am open to debate on it but my sense is that sometimes they are out of line and need to be brought up short on it. This isn't always possible through constructive dialogue.

skullcandy Fri 08-Feb-13 21:17:54

tbh.. i woul go down reasonable adults route.

But.. i would also start to dress them myself.

I've tried the 'i'll take you to school in your pjs' thing with my DS, and it does work.. my issue with him is that he is a daydreamer, he takes forever to get dressed because he's off in his own world.

I have resorted to standing there and actually dressing him myself, its so much quicker, and calmer and we get things done much smoother.

Should be be dressing himself? Yes.. but its the difference between 5 minutes of my time and 20 minutes of yelling!

i agree with oxford bags.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 21:50:11

I find it hard to get upset at being told my opinion counts for nothing by someone who would throw water over a child. I said earlier and I repeat: responses like the one you've just given me just prove that you are someone who chooses not to control their temper and expects others to just fall in line with them. I do not have four children over 10. However, you asked on AIBU if you thought your actions were reasonable. If you discredit the opinions of anyone whose family set-up is not v simialr to yors, you should have specified that in the OP.

I'm not comparing children to adults who can be reasoned with. I'm comparing how YOU choose to react to adults Vs children in regards to lowering yourself to behaviour like throwing water. It does not cover you in glory to do something to a child purely because they are a child and you can get away with it.

I'm very sorry to hear that you were abused as a child. Again, I repeat that I do not think what you did was abuse, just not a great choice in that moment. If you had said in the OP that you were having a wobbly because of some difficult issues of your own at the moment (you needn't have mentioned the abuse) then it would have affected what I have written to you and probably what others have said. I do however stand by my belief that it was unacceptable. Having a wibble because of deep personal things overwhelming you and being emotionally fine and randomly chucking water over a child because you feel like venting your temper are different matters. Doesn't make it great, but it does alter things slightly. IMHO, anyway.

OxfordBags Fri 08-Feb-13 21:51:26

Some smashing typos there, I do apologise.

lljkk Sat 09-Feb-13 08:17:18

I live in a world where adults behave like emotional and immature prats all the time. Daily, frequently. In work places in the street in education down the pub. That's why some end up in prison and others are the subject of long and amusing threads on MN. Some of them even manage to laugh at themselves about their own defects. Most of them find most of it forgivable.

It must be very strange to live in a world of perfect Stepford personalities saints.

I feel your pain, OP. Much of the time I can only be sure of DC getting ready if I Stand Over Them, as you put it, sometimes for every step of the morning routine.

CoffeeChocolateWine Sat 09-Feb-13 08:41:21

I haven't read all 10 pages of posts but can't deny I'm a little shocked that you felt that throwing water at your child was the best option here. And I think you're right to feel a bit bad about it. Doesn't really sound like a mother in control of a situation and can't imagine it helped getting them out the door.

I don't have a 10 year old...my oldest is 4 and maybe in a few years time I may be faced with similar situations...but I just can't imagine being in a situation where I'd throw water at him! Shout maybe, walk out the door without him as a threat maybe, but throw water at him? Errr, no. Sorry! But it just sounds like one of those moments where mum lost control...not the end of the world. Just move on and try and think of a better way to handle it next time.

Whoknowswhocares Sat 09-Feb-13 09:55:24

Oh for goodness sake, the OP never said she felt throwing water was the best option!
She lost her cool a bit, stated in the VERY FIRST POST that she feels guilty and shouldn't have done it and asked for advice
How is it helpful to keep screeching at her how very,very inadequate she is?

whose screeching? i think if a poster gets pulled apart, insulted and misinterpreted they have a right to defend themselves and explain their point. that's all that seems to have happened.

CoffeeChocolateWine Sat 09-Feb-13 10:21:28

Yeah ok, perhaps not well phrased when I said "best option". I was smiling as I typed it in a vaguely amused kind of way but reading it back it doesn't come across like that so apols if it sounds harsh.

But, her question was "am I a child abuser?"...not asking for advice...? Clearly she's not a child abuser but she did lose control of a situlation...as I have done many many times. I'm not trying to make her feel inadequate. I agreed that she's right to feel a bit bad but it's not the end of the world. Move on.

MegaClutterSlut Sat 09-Feb-13 10:25:00

I have a 10 yro DS and he is pretty good at getting dressed, my 6 yro DD on the other hand is a nightmare. I have never known someone to fart arse around as much as her. Takes at least 15-20 minutes to get her to get dressed as she has to dance/play with toys inbetween putting her blimmin clothes on

No op I don't think you are an abuser for chucking water over your ds

NTitled Sat 09-Feb-13 17:11:18

Not sure why people are getting at Oxford, and why the OP has gone sweary on her. She (Oxford) talks a lot of sense.

Lilka Sat 09-Feb-13 19:00:27

When I was a lazy teen my Ma had three stages of 'get out of bed right now'
1. Tug my covers away
2. Open the window wide (if winter and cold outside)
3. Get a water gun and squirt me

It was absolutely hilarious to me. If she wasn't stressed out she sometimes laughed while filling the gun and shouting '5 seconds....4....'

I think it was not only funny, but completely ideal as well. It wasn't a punishment in any way, it got me out of bed as the warm and comfortable factor was gone, didn't do me any harm just made me a bit wet.

I have 2 kids at home and 1. and 2. work wonders at getting DS (nearly 8) out of bed. I have a ban on water guns because DC + water gun = complete ungodly hell grin But now it's been mentionned, a cup of water dribbled on to him slowly would work just as well as opening the windows if not actually be better

OP - Losing it isn't ideal, but I've lost it sometimes, and whilst it feels awful, this isn't going to leave a permanent mark. I wonder if your feeling bad is more to do with losing control than using water as a 'consequence'. It certainly wasn't abusive, MrsDV is right, calling it abuse is wrong and minimises real abuse. Perhaps try some of the ideas some other people suggested to see if anything changes. I sympathise

CarriedAwayAnnie Sat 09-Feb-13 19:39:29

"Oh for goodness sake, the OP never said she felt throwing water was the best option!"

Yes she did.

To paraphrase, she said she had two options

1) Throwing water

2) Smacking

She thought throwing the water was better than smacking. Thereby making the throwing of the water the best option.

OxfordBags Sat 09-Feb-13 19:45:28

Lijkk, my world is neither saintly or Stepford. I am as flawed as the next person. I find it hard to believe I have to explain to other adults that being able to restrain myself from throwing water on a child doesn't make me some sort of superhuman Saint hmm

Ntitled, I've struck the rawest nerve on here, it would seem, so I'm getting the flack. Whatever makes it easiest for people to not address questionable thinking about discipline and modelling behaviour, eh. But thanks for your comment.

zwischenzug Sat 09-Feb-13 20:28:59

Don't worry about it, discipline is one of those subjects areas where other parents will get on their high horse and preach about how wrong you are if your view of it is different from their own.

He's hardly likely to be talking to a therapist in ten years time saying "and this one time, my mother threw a small amount of cold water on me".

FriendlyLadybird Sat 09-Feb-13 20:56:37

I have offered to throw water over my DS (11) to get him out of bed in the morning. He always declines, but always gets up ... just in case!

I honestly don't think that throwing a small amount of water over a child is so bad, or in fact indicative of losing control. I speak as someone who was once dumped, fully clothed, into a bath by DH because ... well, I forget why but it was funny.

I use various different strategies to get my DCs to do what needs to be done. Quite a lot of the time I find humour and silliness work where sitting down and having a serious talk would not.

GotMyGoat Sat 09-Feb-13 20:57:08

Once, my mothers partner asked my sister to do the dishes after dinner, she procrastinated and went to her room. I went to sleep, to be woken my my mothers partner storming into my room and dragging me downstairs demanding that i do the dishes and how dare i go to sleep. I kept saying that it was my sisters turn, that he had asked my sister but he wouldn't believe me and called me all sorts of horrid names, i screamed at him to stop it, standing there in my nighty, and he poured a kettle of water over me.

It is only luck that the kettle was luke warm and not boiling. I ran upstairs after that and didn't go back downstairs.

He apologised the next morning, but only because my mother made him, abd it was a "sorry, but you really wound me up" apology.

Reckon that's abusive, yours is not sounding so bad but still unacceptable.

Would you allow your ds to throw water over you?

GotMyGoat Sat 09-Feb-13 20:58:19

I will be in therapy about mine, i think! Sorry op, i'm in a funny mood tonight.

omg goat. any man did that to my child and he would be nowhere near us ever again.

mind you i have to say if anyone threw a jug of water over my son in any context other than a water fight or some other giggly, fun context they'd never be near him again.

i do wonder how all the people saying, oh it's fine, ha ha would react to someone other than themselves throwing a jug of water over their child as a response to not doing as they were told?

NTitled Sat 09-Feb-13 22:46:47

Agree with those who say it's not the end of the world to lose patience with a child who's being infuriating. But the OP's attitude to some of the responses on here (esp. OxfordBags) suggests that this is - possibly for understandable reasons - a modus vivendi rather than a one-off. I did have some sympathy with her frustration (though not with the way she expressed it to her child). But I do find it annoying when people are told that they are being preachy and sanctimonious because they believe that there are better ways to discipline children than smacking and pouring water over them. (I have three, btw, one of whom would try anyone's patience - though I have yet to chuck a jug of water over him).

socharlottet Sun 10-Feb-13 12:09:42

I suggest that those people who think it's not abusive and not assault, try doing the same thing to someone in the street and see how long before the police come knocking

SayCoolNowSayWhip Sun 10-Feb-13 12:23:14

Yes, because chucking water over a stranger in the street is JUST the same as pouring a tiny bit of water over your child AFTER having warned him.... hmm

thegreylady Sun 10-Feb-13 12:23:54

A small jug she had been nursing to fill the iron a splash of cold water verging on a joke. I am as far from being an abusive parent as you can get but I remember sprinkling water on a teenage ds because he wouldn't get up. It doesn't hurt, it doesn't humiliate, it doesn't frighten. It wasn't a bloody bucket or a hot kettle. In my opinion it wasn't even slightly wrong. Her ds isn't a baby or a toddler.

Lilka Sun 10-Feb-13 12:24:55

Don't be so ridiculous socharlottet

Next time you consider confiscating one of your child's toys just you think about what would would happen if you went up to a stranger in the street and took away their phone. See how long before the police come knocking

CalamityKate Sun 10-Feb-13 12:31:49

I was like this as a child. My (incredibly soft hearted, indulgent) mum was forever threatening to chuck water over me to get me out of bed. I was a lazy little git and we were always late.

She should have done; she'd only have had to do it once.

lljkk Sun 10-Feb-13 12:37:09

Maybe the world would be a better place if I had the authority to tell strangers on the street...
when to go to bed
what to eat
what to do with their time
who to socialise with
what to wear
when they could go online
where they could work or study...

That's it, I should be declared Empress. I'd soon sort them out.

thegreylady Sun 10-Feb-13 12:59:25

By the way me throwing a small amount of water on my child to make him get up is not the same as "anyone throwing water on my child wouldn't come near him again" .
It is just silly to say it is. I think op sounds like a very caring and restrained mother. I bet none of the bosom hoikers have recalcitrant 10 year old twins.

minkembra Sun 10-Feb-13 13:00:34

I too have twins who are highly distractable in the mornings.

At the moment we have a reward ladder for getting ready. but i can see it will only work for a while before novelty wears off.
I try to have a motivations chat with them the night before..i.e. if you get ready early you will get further up the ladder, you will be really helping me out and you might have time for telly etc.

No punishment at school and i cannot just let them be late. there may be no sanctions at school but there are at my work.

Separating them and removing all distractions helps but as an LP with a job, my self to get ready and two kids to stand over it can be a bit much.

Getting up earlier helps a bit but the candle is already seriously burnt at both ends so much earlier is not an option.

Don't always cover myself in glory. and often feel extremely stressed. nothing seems to work for more than a few weeks.

So if you do find something that works for all of you and doesn't leave you with minor misgivings about whether you have done the right thing then please let me know!!

Dryjuice25 Sun 10-Feb-13 13:33:53

Oxford bags usually gives really good adviceand I believe her advice is coming from a good place and well meant although rather blant. And the op seems like very restrained mum who doesn't chuck cold water at her son EVERYDAY. But I disagree that people should go back into their boxes for voicing an opinion on a public forum which I believe defeats the point of the thread.

Op I think the msg to your son was loud and clear and hopeful you won't feel the need to chuck water at him and lessons have been learnt. You sound like a sensible mum and parenting is hard and we learn by trial and error. I also doubt this was a permanently damaging one-off for your son. Good luck

NTitled Sun 10-Feb-13 17:02:36

" I bet none of the bosom hoikers have recalcitrant 10 year old twins."

I haven't got any bosom to hoik, but I have got a recalcitrant 10 yr old DS with Aspergers, who is harder work and infinitely more frustrating than my other two children. So yes, I do know how it feels.

Yep, same here, ten y old with Asperger's and ADHD. And I have twins. Although I don't think I was too judgy about the water thing.

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 19:01:20

I am blunt, Dryjuice, I'll give you that grin I'm a Yorkshire Lass, can't help it.

Bearbehind Sun 10-Feb-13 19:10:27

Oxford, I do think you talk a lot of sense but some of your analogies which compare children to adults/ work colleagues makes me wonder why you didn't answer the OP's question about how many children you have. Do you have children or not? Are you speaking from experience or ideology?

allwaysthebaddie Sun 10-Feb-13 20:27:39

Reading this made me chuckle! I too was a massive wind up in the morning, my dad worked nights so mum was allways trying to keep us quiet and get ready

I had just started secondary school and wouldnt get up, even though you could see school from my window, I was late every day!

One morning mum came in to my room and asked me ONCE to get up, i didnt even acknowledge her..next thing I heard my dad get up. When you heard that stomp on the floor, you were in for it!

He dragged me out of bed by my feet ( giving me carpet burn on my elbow) and threw me in the shower whilst turning it on. (with my flintstones nighty still on!)

MY mum and 2 younger brothers watched in stunned silence but I can honestly say I all ways got up when she shouted me after that AND I never seen it as abuse. I just seen it as i'd really pissed my mum off and she went and got my dad!

By the way i idolised my dad he was lovely -he just sick and tired of me taking piss out of my mum.

Op a bit of water wont harm them .

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 23:13:19

Bearbehind, I am a mother. I don't feel behoven to answer people being offensive to me. If my comments hit a nerve, the OP should look at that, not single me out as the villain on this thread.

I believe that children should be afforded the same respect as adults, if not more, as they are automatically in a vulnerable and dependent state in regards to adults. I do believe that if you wouldn't do something to other adults who wind you up, then you shouldn't do it to your kids. In fact, you especially shouldn't do it to your kids, because they are much more important than some annoying adult.

I am actually a really impatient, bad-tempered person and I work constantly on not mothering in that way. People here have accused me of being Stepford or whatever, which is hilarious, if you knew me. I just live by the philosophy that adults need to suck it up when things are going to shit or driving them mad, not take it out on the kids, because we're the ones who can handle that, not them.

OxfordBags Sun 10-Feb-13 23:14:29

PS Everyone can ask questions but it doesn't mean they get it answered the way they want (or at all) wink

socharlottet Mon 11-Feb-13 08:51:37

'He dragged me out of bed by my feet ( giving me carpet burn on my elbow) and threw me in the shower whilst turning it on. (with my flintstones nighty still on!).... AND I never seen it as abuse'

That is so sad It sounds like you were conditioned to believe that to was acceptable to be treated like that.

valiumredhead Mon 11-Feb-13 08:54:21

That is so It sounds like you were conditioned to believe that to was acceptable to be treated like that.

Or knows what abuse actually is.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 11:45:27

sochar I actually laughed out loud with that!

I know what abuse was, my mother was terribly abused with her sisters in care home when she was a child.

At that age though i didnt know about DM past and NEVER seen it as abuse. My DF never raised a hand to any off us and rarley had to tell us off - that was left to my DM, who I pushed on a daily basis. My DF was a lovely man, my hero and treated me like his little queenie. He also loved his wife and felt i was taking the piss. I was not not conditioned in any way!

My Df sadley passed away 6 years ago and i miss him terribly --i have know one to tell me the answer to the cross word puzzles now!

P.s dont worry about the carpet burn - I also had maggots threw in my mouth of DB...which was worse! .we were very big on pranks in our house...ah i miss those days lol

Dryjuice25 Mon 11-Feb-13 12:02:13

Oxfordbags So you're a Yorkshire Lass! There was me thinking you could be the Oxford lady who is currently popular for starting her leather schoolbags business that took the internet by storm

dikkertjedap Mon 11-Feb-13 12:12:25

OP I think you need to start looking at yourself. You say you feel very stressed and given some of the things you have said in this thread, it may be worth to first focus on getting help for yourself.

You have been given some good advice to get your sons involved in making the mornings more manageable. Shouting shouldn't be part of any morning routine ...

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 12:19:45

Dryjuice, I wish! Perhaps others have been thinking that, ha! Oxford Bags were a daft sort of trousers students used to wear at Oxford decades ago. I went to Oxford and used to wear flares, so it became a sort of NN then grin

Allways, there are different shades and types of abuse. Just because something isn't as bad as the terrible things that happened in care homes, doesn't make it abuse or doesn't make it any less worse. I was shocked to read what your father did. I think that was abusive. Maggots in the mouth? shock

There is a lot of black and white thinking about nuanced things on here and in most threads on serious topics. Very frustrating, very worrying.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 22:45:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ComposHat Mon 11-Feb-13 22:59:08

As a former teenage boy, it was nothing short of a cup of water that would get me out of my wanking chariot at that age. That or having the quilt flung off.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 22:59:34

What the hell has me Bfing got to do with this thread? Since when has Bfing been part of this discussion?! V bad form bringing info given on a totally seperate thread onto another.

Saying you think me Bfing a child under 2 is abuse and creepy makes you look ridiculous. I think most people would struggle to see that as abusive versus dragging a child by their feet out of bed and throwing them in a shower.

I actually said what I did because it really did shock and sadden me, not because I was trying to patronise you or make some sort of point. I was genuinely upset to read it. I have obviously made a mistake or struck some nerve and I apologise.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:00:26

'wanking chariot'? I think I have a crush on ComposHat...

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:01:12

Fuck it, spelt separate wrongly in temper. Shitbadgers.

socharlottet Mon 11-Feb-13 23:14:41

ALLWAYS I have reported your disgusting post swearing at Oxford.
Dragging a teenage girl by the ankles inflicting carpet burns, throwing her in a shower are clearly abusive actions
This thread has been a real eye-opener to me.The things that go on behind closed doors in some homes!
I never experienced anything like this when I was growing up, neither did my DH and it certainly doesn't happen in this house.I think it is terribly sad that so many people think it's OK

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 23:23:19

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

HiggsBoson Mon 11-Feb-13 23:24:54

allwaysthebaddie certainly lives up to the nickname eh smile

I'm breastfeeding a 3 year old. Does someone need to inform Social Services?

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 23:26:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 23:30:23

higgs never said that at any point, 3 is still a baby. Children of school age, that different, I work with them every day, but hey thats a different thread as ox reminds me, i used that as an example.

socharlottet Mon 11-Feb-13 23:30:38

Allways If someone says something you don't agree with, there is always the option to just ignore them you know? You don't need to insult them.I wonder why you need to be so angry and aggressive?

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:30:40

Thank you, Socharlottet (lip wobbles)

HiggsBoson Mon 11-Feb-13 23:33:25

Sorry, I thought your deleted post suggested that Oxford is abusing her 22 month old by bf?

It was certainly one of the nastiest posts I've read on here and I've seen some corkers!

Allwaysthebaddie - are you saying that someone is advocating ebf for 5, 6, 7 or 8+ years old? Ebf, meaning exclusively breastfeeding? That would be pretty unusual.

I imagine a child of that age would be independent enough to decide for themselves whether they want to continue to have the occasional breastfeed.

Having not seen your deleted post, I would say that your most recent post is not painting you in a very good light at all - is it really necessary to be so u pleasant?

allwaysthebaddie Mon 11-Feb-13 23:41:22

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:42:26

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

StuckForAUserName Mon 11-Feb-13 23:42:50

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:44:13

Again, I reiterate: anyone reading this thread can see that at no stage have I said that allways' father was an abuser. She described an incidident which I and others found shocking and I said that IMHO that single incident sounded abusive.

OxfordBags Mon 11-Feb-13 23:45:50

22 MONTH old child, haha! Yeah, 22 year old would be creepy abuse grin

MrsKeithRichards Mon 11-Feb-13 23:48:14

Allways it was abusive behaviour, totally not normal.

I love my dad, adore him, but I can look back and see now that some of his behaviour towards me (violence) was physical abuse.

Having read your account of what your dad did, I would say that it was fairly extreme, mainly because it caused you an injury.

You say you asked about it in the staff room today - are you saying that neither you or any of your colleagues would be worried if this was done to one of your pupils? Would you see it as normal discipline, in today's culture?

MrsKeithRichards Mon 11-Feb-13 23:51:41

Stuck it's far from hilarious, it's kind of normal to treat humans with respect.

Why are you so insistent that people have to have more children of a greater age than your own before they are allowed an opinion?

MrsKeithRichards Mon 11-Feb-13 23:54:40

I'd be worried about a group of teachers laughing about such an abusive occurrence. Is child protection and safegaurdiing not mandatory training? Have you done it yourself?

Or maybe, more likely, they were a bit taken aback to be asked their opinion on something that happened to a colleague as a child that they just smiled and gave a nod for fear of offending.

socharlottet Mon 11-Feb-13 23:55:58

I have 4 Dc aged 18 to 7

I would worry too, MrsKeithRichards.

allwaysthebaddie Tue 12-Feb-13 00:05:07

ok here are some terrible terrible abuse that happened when i was a child
dad dragged me out of bed because I took my mum to dispair day in day out - brothers still laugh about it, with me

brother threw maggots in my mouth when i said 'aahhhh'- i was 10 he was 8. tasted real bad! (was he abusing me?)

Jumped out on dad when he was getting ready for bed he screamed and did a flying kungfoo thing -- ( was i abusing him?)

dad and brothers pelted me with water bombs one summer when coming home from school on a friday( luckily mum had all ready pre filled me a empty squeezy bottle up!)

I put mayo in my dads slippers and got BOLLOCKED for that (was he abusing me then?? was i him??)

dad used to drive off every time i tried to get in car ( which actually used to really fuck me off when him and brothers were laughing there heads off.bybthe way i was 13-15 when he went through that phase.

our house was full of fun, pranks, shrieks, tears. I knew that no matter what my DP and DM would allways be there to put me up and love me from scraping my knee to my first fall out with my first boyfriend. So yes some one telling me my LOVELY dad was an abuser really pissed me off!

Im sure ox and sol can gasp at our disfunctional family but hey it worked for us!

allwaysthebaddie Tue 12-Feb-13 00:08:28

mrskeith grin

Allways - from an outside point of view, the thing that would concern me about your dad dragging you out of bed, causing you to have a carpet burn, then putting you in the shower, is that it sounds as if he lost his temper - and hurting someone in a temper is abusive.

The other incidents you relate sound like pranks - pretty extreme ones, but not involving someone losing their temper in an attempt to 'discipline' someone.

Would you be happy for an adult in authority to treat a child of yours that way? Or might that give you a different perspective on it?

oscarwilde Tue 12-Feb-13 00:14:04

Buy one of those water blaster guns if your carpets will take it. My Dad got a battery operated one and that was just for summer holidays ..... grin

the thing is that those who are most keen to say throwing things at children is ok and throwing children in the shower in temper is ok are the ones who are being aggressive and angry and insulting on this thread.

sadly that does seem to say something.

i have to agree that dragging a child across the floor and throwing them in a shower whilst turning it on sounds violent, aggressive and potentially dangerous. it just does! it's not something i would ever do to a child or ever want done to me. given your fear of your fathers footfall him coming in and shouting and telling you enough was enough would have gotten you out of bed always - so why the need to physically drag and injur you? what if your head had bashed against the bath when you were thrown in and you got concussion and were sent to hospital from school that day? would the doctors have considered it funny and normal or would they have felt obliged to inform ss?

it doesn't mean anyone is calling your dad anything or drawing general pictures - they are commenting on that one event.

can anyone honestly say that if i started a post saying today my husband dragged my daughter out of bed in her nighty, dragged her across the carpet and threw her in the shower isn't it funny that they would post and say hehe how hilarious?

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 08:23:14

allways I don't recall cracking a joke.

Are you seriously telling us that you, being a teacher and quite possibly the only adult a vulnerable child might come across, would laugh at a girl with carpet burns who had been dragged across her house and chucked, fully clothed, into the shower. Oh yes, ha ha ha, how jolly.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 12-Feb-13 08:56:19

YANBU.
I recall my mum throwing water over me whilst I was IN bed. She had warned me and I didn't think she had the balls. She so did!

allwaysthebaddie Tue 12-Feb-13 09:08:53

good morning and the fun continues!!
mrskeith Actually it opened up a discussion - The older the colleague, generally the 'punishment' got worse. Ranging from belt, slipper, rolled up news paper , which perferated an ear drum, - to rulers and straps used in school. The culteral difference in chastisement was an eye opener too, People seen it for what it was.

There was no nervous laughter or nodding. There was no deep -'' now x do you think you need counciling as that was abuse...' It was lighthearted, most laughs at which was more popular, a snoopy, garfield or flintstones nighty.

Of course i have done my CP and SGC so I know that abuse come in many forms, but sorry, our family just didnt have it.

Im sorry you got physically abused mrskeith...but i just didnt. Dont include me in your sorry story im afraid.

Yes of course my dad lost his temper- he wasnt perfect, no one is. He never raised his hand to me- or my brothers- or his wife. Never played mind games. If you were in the wrong you got told. None of this passive agressive shite - or sitting on the end of beds begging your child to do something. At no point did i cry out in pain or shout stop. My dad would never hurt me..yes i did have a small carpet burn but i wasnt bothered about it.

It wasnt a ranging bull father dragging a screaming child nearly bashing in her head on every thing- My mum had obviously talked to him previously about it, hense why she only asked me once!He was tired after doing a 7-6 (11 hour shift) He wipped me out of bed and straight in to shower. We had a cubicle, so sorry, no head smashing, no doctors, no concussion....Id given my brothers worse chinese burns!

sdt it wasnt a random adult it was my dad.... stop procrastinating. And yes people were calling my dad an abuser.

Alas im all talked out-- time to get ready for work. Sorry to all that want to stick an 'am a victim' label on me but its just not so, sorry to disappoint you.
Time to go looking for your next victim...mwhahahaha

allwaysthebaddie Tue 12-Feb-13 09:13:27

mrskeith i wasnt a vunerable child, i was 10/11 and a very boistrous one too, sorry wall flowers in our house! I did the smiley as i was laughing at your comment. The carpet burn was very small and didnt break the skin --sorry STILL no abuse. ??????? Your obsessed woman! Go get a job or something...

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 09:21:51

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 09:22:12

You're still no answering the question.

No one is trying to label your family as abusive, but that act wasn't normal and quite alarming really and, viewed in isolation, abusive.

I have a job, it involves leading training courses about child protection and giving young people a voice. That's kind of why I care about this type of thing.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 09:30:12

Actually a huge part of what I do is this really, challenging people's views based on their own experiences of what they regard as normal. It's amazing what some people put up with as a child, and it stands to reason that they assume that's normal. That in itself isn't an issue until that person is put into a position where a young person might rely on them to spot the signs and speak out for and with them.

Fairenuff Tue 12-Feb-13 09:33:16

I work in school and if I child told me that their dad had dragged them out of bed causing a carpet burn and chucked them in the shower, I would record what the child said in the Welfare Book and report it to the headteacher as a matter of child protection. It's routine. It's not making a judgement, it's just recording the facts.

If the child told me that their dad had thrown a water balloon at them on a summers day, I would not record that, or report it.

I would be concerned that a teacher, trained in child protection, cannot see the difference between the two scenarios.

shutthebloodydoor Tue 12-Feb-13 09:53:59

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 10:11:57

shutthebloodydoor

No, I don't think anyone would conclude that was abusive.

You seem quite angry, are you ok?

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 10:19:56

I didn't need to share my line of work to give my post credit, it stands up to scrutiny on it's own. I thought that background information would be useful, as no one comes to you from a vacuum. We all have experiences and influences that shape who we are and the opinions we form.

shutthebloodydoor Tue 12-Feb-13 10:37:44

Im not angry at all, a little bemused perhaps, mrsKeithRichards . Just because you feel it is abuse it dosnt mean that it is. I can see why Allwaysthebaddie
got somewhat annoyed. Maybe your work makes you look for something that isnt there, I dont know? Although there was some inflammatory things about another thread, six of one half a dozen of another.

More and more on MN there is a fight to the death on people hammering home their veiws on things, its sensless.

That makes me sad. I thought this site was for support not to go around accusing people of bad parenting,abuse, which happens a lot. sad

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 10:52:43

No one called allwaysthebaddie dad abusive. Many have said that could be construed as an abusive incident. It would certainly set alarm bells ringing for me, and I hope for many people in positions where it matters.

Abuse isn't defined by one act. Nothing in this area is black or white. If this incident sat amongst a long list of others in a similar vein then it could well be indicitive of something much more worrying going on at home. It could also be nothing.

If you were a teacher and learnt of such an incident occouring would you take the chance that it was nothing, and keep it to yourself?

It certainly isn't normal or productive parenting. It's all by the by now as it was an incident that happened a long time ago however if a child I was in contact with came to me detailing this happening it would trigger of a train of though and action that I am duty bound to see through.

It could turn out dad was just at the end of his tether, acted in rashness and acknowledges it was daft. We might look at better techniques for getting the young person out the door in the mornings. It might be that there is miriad of abuse going on at home. No single person can make that call.

To define abuse and protect young people, adults and others in their lives need to share information, report incidents and ask questions.

Children get hurt by people doing nothing.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 10:55:36

Or we could ignore, and hope that nothing else is going on and that the young person will grow into an adult who laughs at the time dad dragged her through the house, causing carpet burns, and threw her in the shower, and now seeks reassurance from colleuges that this was normal.

In fact, allwaysthebaddie I'm concerned about the attitude of you and your workmates. You all think extended BF is gross? They all laughed at your tale of woe?

KellyElly Tue 12-Feb-13 10:57:00

That you think you have a right to judge anybody and keep harping on about treating children as you would adults is hilarious. But this very argument is one of the main arguments against smacking on MN - that you wouldn't smack an adult so why would you do this to a child. In turn, if you wouldn't chuck a jug of water at you DH for example, why is it ok to do it to your child? I personally think what you did was wrong and was a loss of control. Was it child abuse - no, but neither is a light tap on the bum or the hand yet anyone who admits doing this gets flammed. I'm quite surprised you have so many people on here advocating what you did, not because it was terrible (because it wasn't - it wasn't great but I think you know that or you wouldn't have posted), but because they are probably the very people up in arms on the smacking thread. A loss of control is a loss of control whatever way you look at it.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 10:58:26

Or we could all continue to laugh about abuse, pretend it only happens or matters when children are beaten black and blue on a daily basis. Everything else is just discipline and perfectly acceptable right? We can carry on minimising it, laughingly asking if we're abusers ourself, putting the phrase in brackets.

Or we could start taking it seriously and giving a fuck.

goingupinfumes Tue 12-Feb-13 11:01:56

mrsjay another mad inflatable killer!! yeh.. I burst my DS football the other day, he had been asked again and again not to kick it indoors and he just pushed it that one last kick and smashed my vase - introducing one mad woman and a burst football.

Anyhow OP I think it sounds like a pretty normal reaction to have, it will be interesting to see how he gets ready tomorrow, if it was a lesson learnt, or just something funny you will talk about when he is older? and people saying its abuse need to get into the real world at some point, I often chuck water over my DH when he won't get out of bed.. which makes for a giggle in our house, not abuse! So wouldn't think twice about the 2 DS getting the same treatment.

Fairenuff Tue 12-Feb-13 11:04:10

One abusive act does not automatically make a person an abuser. They made a mistake, they went too far, they lost their temper. However, it's important to recognise that the situation got out of control and harm occurred. The fact that a grown adult cannot contain their temper will always raise warning flags.

Minimising it, brushing it off as unimportant is how regular abuse gets overlooked.

Instances like this need to be recognised for what they are. As 'stand alone' situations. And they should be recorded as such.

If they occur more frequently, then either the child, or parent, or both of them need help.

Anyone who isn't sure could ask themselves this. Would I be happy for another adult to treat my child this way? To 'give them a bollocking' for putting mayonaise in their slippers? Yes, that would be ok. To drag them out of bed and into a shower, causing a carpet burn? No that would not be ok.

Another way to check is to ask would I be happy for my DH to treat me like this? A man who dragged his wife out of bed, into the shower, causing a carpet burn, could be prosecuted. So, yes, it's abuse, no matter what the provocation.

shutthebloodydoor Tue 12-Feb-13 11:08:34

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Fairenuff Tue 12-Feb-13 11:18:17

shutthebloodydoor would you be happy for someone to treat your child the way we are discussing? Dragged out of bed, into the shower, causing a carpet burn. This is a genuine question.

Would it be ok if you did it to your child, or your partner did, or a relative did, or the babysitter, or someone else?

At what point would you consider that behaviour not ok and speak out on behalf of your child?

KateSMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 12-Feb-13 11:58:13

Morning everyone,

We can see that tempers are running high on this thread.

We'd like to remind you all of our talk guidelines, and that sometimes the best thing to do is just step away from the thread for five minutes.

shutthebloodydoor Tue 12-Feb-13 12:07:36

I can actually see it for what it was and thats my opinon, like you have yours.It wasnt a relative, babysitter it was her dad. There is a million what ifs.

Mrs KeithRichards not every one is getting abused (sorry just read an earlier post) I think if you went sounding the alarms every single time you would have millions of kids in care. And you would be like the old woman in the shoe! Calm down wine

If it was happening every day or Allwaysthebaddie was upset with it it would be an issue. It sounds like a one of spur of the moment things. When my dad slapped my legs my mum said I was that shocked nothing came out of my mouth! Just stood there mouth a gape! Untill i took a big breath and screamed the house down. My dad lost his emotions-fear-relief-anger as I had gone in to the road. He wasnt an abuser.

fairenough when my baby comes and if she is 5 - no 7-no 9- no but if she was in secondry school winding me up every morning then I would do it my self! But of course she will be an angel and I wont have too! grin

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 12:10:48

shutthebloodydoor Dont' be sorry. That's actually incredibly patronising but I'm sure you know that. My father is a great man whom I love and adore. He made some shitty parenting decisions. I don't hate him for that. He stopped when I had the knowledge to say 'actually no, this isn't right'.

I'm not tarring anyone with the same brush, it is hard for me to acknowledge that actually yes, his behaviour wasn't right, because he is my dad, loves me to bits, does loads for me. He just handled some things wrong.

He would lash out when he felt wound up, would chase me through the house and hit my legs, hard. I was 15 the last time he done it when I wrote him a letter detailing how it made me feel.

Was I abused or just disciplined? Every other aspect of my childhood was pretty idyllic. Is it relative? He actually done nothing as bad as dragging me about and throwing me in the shower. He just didn't know where to stop when he started. He never used anything to hit me, in fact it would fall into the relams of normal for some people on here.

But it's left me with some fucked up perceptions. I was in a relationship where my partner would do the same. I thought it was me that made men lash out, I must be annoying and provocative. Again this partner didn't beat me black and blue, I wasn't cowering in the corner, afraid of him. I wasn't like that with my dad either. But my experiences made it seem normal again to get hit.

I'm not in the job I am because of what happened to me. My experience pales into insignificance compared to what goes on in some households. It's incredibly damaging though, to project your 'normal' on someone else.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 12:12:30

shutthebloodydoor Mrs KeithRichards not every one is getting abused (sorry just read an earlier post) I think if you went sounding the alarms every single time you would have millions of kids in care. And you would be like the old woman in the shoe! Calm down

Do you know anything about procudure concerning child protection?

Clearly not.

Voicing concerns with the relevant people does not result in millions of kids in care.

crazymazydazy Tue 12-Feb-13 12:32:01

Throwing anything at your child is abuse. Sorry but I don't understand how anyone could not think that confused

ElsieMc Tue 12-Feb-13 12:32:13

I let DS's 9 and 7 have TV on and eat breakfast in front of it so long as they are all dressed and ready by 8.30 am reading to leave at 8.40 am. If this does not happen, no TV and eat breakfast in dining room. This generally works.

When going through a bad patch, I told them I would ring their (eccentric) headteacher and get her to come round, which she probably would have done. That sent them running and demonstrated that she must be obeyed. She waits outside the school as well until the pupils are all in.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 12:38:33

The biggest irony on here is that the 'Never did me any harm' brigade who sneer at concepts like modelling good behaviour and so on are totally proving the posters who disagree with them RIGHT by showing how having bad behaviour and poor/chaotic discipline choices modelled for them has led them to be adults who cannot control their temper, or think that the slightest provocation gives them permission to lose it, who will react with excessive nastiness and OTT vitriol to the slightest thing that irks them, who give themselves permission to be vindictive and hysterical and who justify all this to themselves by saying the other party or parties made them behave that way!

Saying that a single incident from Allways' childhood sounds abusive simply is NOT the same as calling her father an abuser. If people cannot understand the difference, then that's their problem. The only person who has actually been called an abuser on here is me! In her post which was deleted for being so vile to me, she stated. That me BFing my toddler was "abuse and creepy". Information she has from another thread that is wholly irrelevant here (she also pestered me on the other, unconnected thread about things I have said here and declared on there that I called her father an abuser, again slandering me).

MrsKeithRichards, you always speak sense with a cool head and are very open and honest about your own experiences. It makes me glad someone like you is looking out for the welfare of children smile

NotMostPeople Tue 12-Feb-13 13:00:56

I think that the OP herself didn't think that her reaction was right, but she lost her temper. Most parents have lost their temper with their dc's at some point, so I don't think she should beat herself up.

However I really don't understand how a parent can get to a point were their children won't listen to them to the extent that they just ignor them and do their own thing. What this thread is about is a lack of control, control of the op's children and control of temper.

I am not talking about being controlling in the negative way but in the way that a caring nurturing parent should be. The kind of control that ensures you leave the hous on time, clean, full, dressed and with all you need.

My DC's may not do everything I ask them, the pile of stuff at the bottom of the stairs is walked over many times a day. However when I give them the look or change the tone of my voice they know I mean business and what I say goes. How do you get to the point were this doesn't happen? I have a 10 year old DS and an 11 year dd and a teen.

The OP needs to take control.

crashdoll Tue 12-Feb-13 13:10:45

"Saying that a single incident from Allways' childhood sounds abusive simply is NOT the same as calling her father an abuser. If people cannot understand the difference, then that's their problem."

If you experience abuse, then there must be a perpertrator. Otherwise, there is no abuse.

My other point I came on here to make that was those of you labelling throwing water as abusive are clearly not social workers. You'd get laughed out of court with that evidence alone, that is if you even got that far, which I doubt.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 13:14:50

My other point I came on here to make that was those of you labelling throwing water as abusive are clearly not social workers. You'd get laughed out of court with that evidence alone, that is if you even got that far, which I doubt.

On that single incident, you're right. No one has said otherwise. Not all abuse is court worthy though is it? Not all abusive acts form part of a wider picture. I'm sure it's been said before, but I'll say it again, abuse isn't defined in isoation. A single act can be abusive, the extent of that lies in what happens at other times.

As part of a wider range of issues?

And exactly what is it teaching a child? Stamp, shout and throw things when you need someone to do something for you?

MrsKeithRichards Tue 12-Feb-13 13:16:29

However, considering the OP's other option was hard slap on the arse then I'd suggest she needs some help with positive techniques or she is in danger of creating an atmoshpere of abusive behaviour.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 13:31:06

crashdoll, no-one actually said that the water throwing was abuse, they just questioned it being an acceptable choice. Again, different things. The OP asked on AIBU if she WBU. Some people said they believed she was. It's a non-outrage: MNetter asks on AIBU if AIBU, some say no, some say yes! It's not like people are crashing a thread in Parenting to decry the poster as a child abuser, FFS.

Also, labelling someone's father an abuser indicates a belief that he was routinely bad, which no-one thinks.

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 13:33:06

I'd also like to point out that if allwaysthebaddie tried to report someone to SS for BFing, which she declared was abuse, it'd be far more ridiculous.

NTitled Tue 12-Feb-13 14:19:05

Again, OxfordBags speaks a lot of sense.

Parenting options for difficult, annoying, recalcitrant children:

Tip water on them

Smack them

Think of something better.

I am tested by one of my children every minute of the day when he's at home. But I have never resorted to either of the first two "options". Is it really so weird to think it's unreasonable to tip water over a child?

crashdoll Tue 12-Feb-13 15:47:05

Sorry but there were some posts on here calling it abuse.

valiumredhead Tue 12-Feb-13 15:56:08

There's a massive difference between a loving father dragging his dd out of bed, her probably laughing and playing along by being deliberately floppy, happening to get a carpet burn in the process and soaking her in the shower, then laughing about it years later and an abusive man dragging his child out of bed, deliberately being rough so she gets a carpet burn, pushing her into the shower all the while hurling verbal abuse at her. Child feels unsafe and terrified and unloved as this is not normal rough and tumble behaviour in a secure loving family and is part of a much bigger picture of abuse.

The two are very very different.

Allways - procrastinating is delaying or deferring action, wasting ti e, rather than getting on with something. I was not procrastinating - I was asking you to look at the incident that happened to you from a different angle, because that might give you a different perspective on it.

You mentioned that the staff you work with were not at all concerned about what happened to you. What would their reaction be if a child reported that something similar had happened to them? Would they still laugh it off? If they would, that is a worry because, as others have said, a single incident of a parent losing their temper might not be abuse, but if it were part of a pattern, there could be a child in an abusive situation - and unless the, apparently minor, individual incidents are recorded and reported, no-one will be able to build up the pattern that would ring the alarm bells, until too late.

* - time, not ti e.

KellyElly Tue 12-Feb-13 16:17:33

Valium - when Allways posted she described MY mum and 2 younger brothers watched in stunned silence and her dad was just sick and tired of me taking piss out of my mum.. Where do you get the her probably laughing and playing along by being deliberately floppy??? That's just making things up to suit your own argument!

OxfordBags Tue 12-Feb-13 16:19:45

Kelly, Valium is positing two different ways of how the incident might have played out, she's not making things up to suit herself.

KellyElly Tue 12-Feb-13 16:22:36

OxfordBags sorry, got the wrong end of the stick blush, I though she was trying to say Allways was laughing and playing along with it.

shockers Tue 12-Feb-13 16:26:33

Haven't read the whole thread, but my mum used to wring a wet flannel out over my face if I wouldn't get up. She wasn't a child abuser, just a frustrated mum with a lazy teenager.

I have grown up to be a reasonably well adjusted adult I think.

FutTheShuckUp Tue 12-Feb-13 16:30:14

Fairenuff- can you not see how utterly pointless it is comparing what a parent would do to discipline a child as to what a husband/wife would do to their spouse (presumably to chastise/teach them a lesson as discipline wouldn't be appropriate assuming the balance of power in a relationship is equal)???
As I stated earlier- if my husband confiscated my mobile phone because i'd annoyed him/not done as I was told- how do you think people on here/womens aid would react? Thats downright controlling and abusive for a spouse- but acceptable for a parent/child relationship. Also if I did something unacceptable to my husband he has the option of packing his bags and leaving.Would I be able to if my kids had defied me? No of course not. Its so obtuse to compare what is acceptable in an adult relationship/out on the street to strangers and what parents do it really gets my goat it is bought up every sodding time in this sort of discussion.

valiumredhead Tue 12-Feb-13 16:33:03

I am pointing out that context is everything and I did use 'probably'!

By the way i idolised my dad he was lovely

valiumredhead Tue 12-Feb-13 16:34:39

Kelly, Valium is positing two different ways of how the incident might have played out, she's not making things up to suit herself

Thank you - yes, quite.

Context is everything.

Mintberry Tue 12-Feb-13 17:08:05

I remember my dad tipping a bowl of water on my head to get me out of bed when I was about that age! Now it's just a funny story I laugh about. It seemed more like a prank than a punishment, but it still corrected the behaviour (for a while, anyway wink).
I also remember getting smacked when I was young (under 6?), but I remember that with a scowl and wouldn't do it to my own kids.
So, in my experience at least, they're not the same, as some have been saying.

i have to say if i knew which school these teachers worked at i'd be on the phone reporting my concerns and asking that inspectors checked their safeguarding training was up to date and taken seriously.

my line manager is the safeguarding officer. i'm an ex teacher, counsellor and now work in a role that brings me into direct contact with 16+ students. therefore over the years i've had lots of safeguarding training and been familiar with the standards and procedures for it in educational institutions and medical settings.

as someone with a duty of care you have to report things like this that are told to you. whether they lead to action being taken or not is above your pay grade frankly but you have a duty to report - it's part of your job and contract as teacher. you tell the safeguarding officer - he/she will have access to more info such as whether other agencies are involved with the family, whether they have been previously, whether there are any known procedures in place etc. they will also have contacts with social services, local authorities, the police etc who advise them and who they share that information with. yes the social workers may well decide yep, nothing to see here it's all good but please let us know if anything else comes to your attention. or it may turn out there is cause for concern about another child in the family, or there has been a police call out for domestic disturbance at the property previously etc.

no one is saying 'take the kids away' they're saying take the incident seriously and share information with the nominated person who deals with this stuff.

there is no way anyone who works in education can be unaware of these procedures and the importance o