to feel hurt for my fatherless son

(130 Posts)
spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:24:04

I have 4 dc- the youngest is 2 the eldest 10. The youn gest 2 have no contact with their father. My Dp wants to move in and be a dad to my little 2. He has shown great commitment over the last year during a fairly long distance relationship. He would like a child of his own. To not have one is a deal breaker. I am currently a single mum of 4. I would love a baby together but i need to weigh against needs of the other kids. I feel like he is saying my little 2 are not enough and would almost be downgraded by his own child. He saying he just doesn't want to always feel like an outsider looking in. I am over 40. I also fear becoming a single mum of 5. I asked him what if i say no, he replied he would leave. If i try, but we can't then he says that would be ok. Is this more like wants me to prove something to him? I really feel it is crunch time.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:29:47

i apologise for the sloppy post. . it be my phone

nefertarii Mon 04-Feb-13 21:29:55

How would you feel if you didn't have kids and your partner didn't want them?

mrsbunnylove Mon 04-Feb-13 21:32:01

if you have any doubts, don't move him in.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:35:33

You mean if i wanted them? I wouldn't feel it was a personal rejection of me and i think that is how he sees it.

nefertarii Mon 04-Feb-13 21:37:13

You would be happy to not have children?

whateveritakes Mon 04-Feb-13 21:38:46

Will he still be prepared to stay if you don't get pregnant and carry to term? How does he know he is able to have a baby with you?

YANBU but I can see why he would like one of his own. It doesn't mean yours aren't good enough but they aren't going to feel like his after one year of a long distance relationship TBH. I think you should do what you want. He can have children whenever he wants so you don't need to give him anything if you don't want to.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:38:48

I think i will always have doubts Mrs Bunny. . i just keep seeing loads of scenarios, amazingly good and others equally terrible.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:41:10

If he was clear in his need for his own biological child, that i understand. But it is more my intention to try with him that he wants. If we can't have a child he says that would not be a problem. Only if i won't try.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 21:47:31

If he was clear in his need for his own biological child, that i understand. But it is more my intention to try with him that he wants. If we can't have a child he says that would not be a problem. Only if i won't try.

See I think he's got a lovely way of thinking.

He's making it clear to you that as much as he wants to be a biological Dad, if nature forbade it for any reason, he'd still love you just as much as he does now.

In other words, having a baby is not more important than having you...but you being happy/willing to try for one is very important to him.

Does that make sense?

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:51:18

Yes. . it does make sense smile I want him to be happy but i just don't know if i can take more time away from my other Dc's. He says we'll be a team, but hey, he's a man and i am a cynic

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 21:51:43

This may sound a bit harsh but I honestly think it's the right advice.

I think he should demonstrate real commitment to YOU first. If he's serious about becoming a family - a lifelong father and husband - he will need to marry you. If he can't do that.... well, you may well end up a single mother of five.

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 21:52:23

Men can say all sorts of things; it's what they DO that counts

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:52:37

thanks Worral. . that was really lovely smile

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 21:53:40

Don't move him in, it's too easy! Make him jump some sort of hurdle to show he's serious and invested in you. No skin in the game = too easy to get going when the going is tough.

Schooldidi Mon 04-Feb-13 21:55:16

Even if they do get married she could still end up a single mother of five. Marriage doesn't stop men leaving.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 21:57:25

How do you know the OP wants to get married?

spirited no problem at all and I can kind of understand how you feel because I was a single parent of 2 kids when my now DH moved in.

He had no kids of his own but took to mine like a duck to water... that was definitely what made me decide to have one more.

It wasn't because he wanted one but because after a couple of years of seeing what a fantastic step dad he was, it just seemed the natural thing to do.

Could you not see how it goes and put it on the back burner for a year or so? Or is he in a desperate hurry?

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 21:57:45

well he does come here 3 hrs public transport every weekend and uses all his hols for their birthdays etc. He is rather undomesticated and slightly idle, but that is compared to myself who, with 4 kids am constantly washing and zooming around. He admits to being confused as to what the hell we are doing next ie ballet, sports clubs etc. . but he does try to keep up and always offers me a lie in which i never take. My kids wake at 8ish weekends. That is a lie in! smile

Schooldidi Mon 04-Feb-13 22:00:32

If she's over 40 then waiting a couple of years doesn't sound viable really.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 22:01:03

He does want to get married, he had no dad, no family life, only child and was farmed out. He says doesn't want to feel disposable. He is only 30 and has a typical professional house share. Maybe i should just move him in with my 4. He will probably deny he ever mentioned another child after a few months ;)

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 22:03:41

It is the age thing and not feeling like we have time that's the pressure

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 22:06:25

Well whatever happens, take that lie in! grin

It'll be character building for him and the kids...they get bonding time and you get to starfish in bed for a while.

Win - win!

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 22:08:42

Again Worral. . like it smile

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 22:10:27

He sounds lovely spirited.

Be warned, though, slightly idle will turn into very idle if you allow it to. Usual progression.

frustratedworkingmum Mon 04-Feb-13 22:11:04

Run, run fast

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 22:13:20

Yeah. . i should probably be a bit evil and naggy like i am in real life and stop being lovely weekend wife/mummy.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 22:14:37

Yeah I do agree with Kiwiinkits on the slightly idle thing.

It's absolutely understandable that compared to you, he would look slightly idle because he doesn't have all the chores and responsibilities that comes with being a single parent.

But if you two are going to live together, you're going to have to learn to delegate some things to him and he'll have to learn to accept them.

I vote you start with that lie in! grin

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 22:19:58

I am U to feel that him wanting me to want to try for a dc is a rejection of my little 2 dcs. . who he misses like crazy, aren't I. . ?

Hissy Mon 04-Feb-13 22:38:04

Slow down!

This is a guy you've known a year, in a LDR most of the time? And he's got this baggagy background, damaged, and he wants to be a daddyto your 2yo? How can he do that, when he has no experience of what a family, good or otherwise, is all about?

It's not right. The 'trying' thing is for you to prove yourself to him. Bad move. Jump through hoops for me, higher, faster, more. He's lazy now, when he's trying to win you over? It'll only get worse when he's not on supposed 'best behaviour'

He's not a catch.

LineRunner Mon 04-Feb-13 22:44:52

I would agree with Hissy and I think your gut is telling you the same.

HildaOgden Mon 04-Feb-13 22:55:25

Hissy said exactly what I was thinking....my alarm bells aren't just ringing,they're clanging.Sorry,I know that's not what you want to hear.

12 months of a long distance relationship is too soon to move in a new 'Daddy',not just for your little ones but probably more especially for the older ones who have been through enough changes already.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 22:56:23

maybe. . i have actually known him for 10 yrs as a close family friend. And my previous relationship was with someone who put on the biggest act ever in the win me over phase and turned out to be a serial abuser. I sometimes feel reassured by my blokes laziness, like he's not putting on a show. So very confused and paralysed because of past mistakes. I don't know my instincts. I don't mind being on my own. . so it's not that i need someone.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:00:22

Hilda. . you are so right about the eldest 2.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:01:42

The eldest 2 have a close relationship with their Dad btw. . no new daddy status for them

HildaOgden Mon 04-Feb-13 23:20:44

They've had a Dad in their lives...who has left,for whatever reason.They've had a stepfather,who has totally disappeared.And now they have your boyfriend,who has warned you he's off too,unless you try to conceive his baby (at aged 40+).

While I understand he wants a child ,and that he wants to feel like an 'insider',the truth of it is that he will always be,in part,an outsider.He will never be the father of any of your 4 kids...and both of you need to really see that.

I personally would feel too unsure about the stability of all this,or whether just 'trying' (unsuccessfully) for a baby would actually satisfy whatever void he feels.

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 23:23:17

I think slow down too. You like him, he likes you. He wants to commit to you (on paper at least). What's the hurry on him moving in? Can he prove his commitment to you by getting a job near to where you live? Can he get a shared flat near to your place (so you're not living together, but closer to each other). Willingness to do those things would suggest that he's a good bet.

Try counselling to resolve some of your grief and sadness about your other relationships before getting too much further into this one. Tell your boyfriend that you love him, and the reason you're going slowly is to not only protect your self but to protect him.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:28:13

Well put Hilda, thankyou. Can a non biological not be a parent to a child tho? I imagine he could adopt my 2, down the line. Their father is banned from even making an application for contact because of his conduct and convictions for harassment. It is me who feels he could be their "dad".Am i totally wrong there?

BegoniaBampot Mon 04-Feb-13 23:29:26

Understand he wants his own child,fair enough but you have a lot more to lose than him. The age gap would be a problem for me as well, many women might be ok with it, but it would worry me.

MN044 Mon 04-Feb-13 23:30:37

I woudl think twice tbh. About the whole thing. Being a single parent permeates everything you do. You live and breathe responsibility. He has no real idea what that is like and it will cause an issue should you move in together. How will you both feel when he wants to discipline the children, or when he wants a lie in? I made the mistake of having a child (my third) with someone who had no idea about responsibility or commitment. He left when that child was 2 months old, leaving me to pick up the pieces of not only my own life, but also of the older 2 dc who had begun to see him as a father figure. You already have 4 dc. I know myself I will never have any more, even though that breaks my heart actually. My 3 are enough and I will not have another to satisfy another mans need to belong.Especially when it'll be me bringing them up ultimately. It sounds like you don't have a relationship built on a realistic picture of day to day life. At 30 and essentially single, he should be thinking the world is his oyster. Respectfully, and as one in the same boat, I'm not sure what he will get with a woman 10 years older and with 4 dc already.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:32:02

And thanks Kiwi. . i have thought of the possibility of him moving to his own flat here. .i sometimes feel suck it and see may be the only way tho. it would be so hard to go from no kids and a chilled out life to 4! How could we ever predict if it would work out!?

MN044 Mon 04-Feb-13 23:33:28

Spirited, you need to stop looking for a dad for your younger 2. It's actually very sad to see you repeatedly say that that's what you're hopign for. A relationship needs to be more than that, and it needs to be about you and him. Not a desperate need to give them a dad. They have one. Tbh I'll bet you're more than enough for them. I only opened this thread as I have a son who has no contact with his dad, a 4 yo. The best I can do for him is to give him as much stability as possible. Not desperately hope for a replacement.

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:34:29

i agree 44. . the world is his oyster. . i should probably just let him go

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:37:33

well if it was just about me and him i would be in head first. . i know it isn't. But in effect my little 2 do not have a dad and i don't think it's impossible for a non biological parent to have that bond

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 23:39:32

Pretty good predictors of whether it would work out:
* he comes from a functional family unit himself (FAIL)
* he has not demonstrated any violent, criminal or controlling behaviour (PASS)
* he is older than 30 (PASS, just)
* he has siblings or nephews and nieces or lots of friends with kids (?)
* you have known him for more than two years (FAIL, but potential to pass in time)
* he chips in with routine based 'shitwork' around the house (potential to fail, PASS at present)
* he has some skin in the game (that is, he has demonstrated real committment by making a sacrifice of some sort) (FAIL, but potential to pass in time)

That's why I think you should wait.

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 23:41:10

Another test:
* he doesn't pressure you and allows you time to make big decisions (I think this is a PASS, isn't it?)

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:46:39

I have known him for 10 years, so Pass smile

Kiwiinkits Mon 04-Feb-13 23:50:22

Well it's starting to stack up pretty well then, eh?
If you asked your eldest "what do you think of [Gary/Fred/DP name]?" what would he say?

flow4 Mon 04-Feb-13 23:55:40

Spirited, I know you feel you are up against the (biological) clock, but really, your DP is 'untested' as a dad. If I were you, I would want to see how he was as a 'resident' father to your existing children, day in day out, before I thought about planning another baby with him - because being a weekend-only dad is a very different thing, and IMO much easier.

I can provide a bit of a cautionary tale... DS1 was 3.5 when I met DS2's dad. I got pregnant after only 5 months (pill failure, and I decided not to have an abortion) so it felt too soon for him to move in. I was very cautious about moving a 'new man' into DS1's life so soon. (And I owned my own home, while he rented, so I had security and independence). So he came to our house twice a week, and it worked well. I think it felt like a little 'holiday' for all of us, each time: DS1 got an exciting new visitor, I got some help, he got a break from his normal routine... smile

Unusually, after DS2 was born, we still did not live together - and our arrangement continued to work fairly well, though other people thought it was odd. And when I went back to work p/t, he did some of the childcare, so he was at ours 3.5 days per week on average. We had different parenting styles and habits, of course, but he was pretty hands-on, looking after DS2 and doing the school run with DS1, cooking meals and doing nappies and all...

When DS2 was almost 3, we decided it was time for him to move in. Almost immediately, we both felt the strain. He had been used to going off and having child-free time in which to work quietly, and I had been used to running the house my own way! Differences began to feel bigger and more problematic - I came home from work to find he'd forgotten to feed the kids because he'd been trying to work, for instance, not once but several times. hmm angry

Then when DS1 hit puberty, he wasn't very good at dealing with it at all. He wasn't used to hormonal strops, and they made him angry. It started to feel like he was favouring DS2 (his blood child) over DS1. He lost his temper in a frightening way a couple of times, and wouldn't acknowledge he was in the wrong... There were other problems I won't go into here... We lasted together less than 18 months from the date he moved in. sad

Very, very sadly, after we split up, he saw less and less of DS1, though he continued to see DS2 regularly. It confirmed my fear that he didn't care for the two boys equally - and my poor DS1 became 'fatherless' again. sad sad

You might avoid all of this, of course. Your DP might rise to the challenge and be a marvellous full-time dad to all your children. I hope so. smile But the worry is, if you agree to try for a baby before he moves in, and then it doesn't work out, and he turns out to be best suited to being just a part-time dad, then you will be left in a very vulnerable position...

spiritedaway Mon 04-Feb-13 23:58:07

They think he is great and actually are so sweet thinking about me. He would feel very uncomfortable even being here if they were unhappy about it. They're not. We have fun. We have fun when he's not here too of course. He does research good stuff to do at weekends and enjoys being a kid again, as you do when you play in the snow etc with them

flow4 Tue 05-Feb-13 00:00:00

Oops, I cross-posted with about ten people there! blush

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 00:01:51

Sad but cautionary tale Flow. . i would definitely want him to move in and try first-but because of timing i feel i should do it soon. And he feels here is home and says i am putting him in limbo

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 00:06:08

i meant move in and try the situation btw. . not ttc first

flow4 Tue 05-Feb-13 00:06:16

I understand the time pressure... Can you have him move in soon then, and say you need to find out how you will all 'gel' as a family before you agree to try for another baby, and that you will make a decision about conceiving in, say, 6-12 months?

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 00:06:50

And aren't all first time parents "untested"

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 00:08:32

that's the suck it and see way ahead Flow. I think that may be the only way

flow4 Tue 05-Feb-13 00:17:32

Yes. But...

- Generally new parents get to learn together. However, there is a massive difference between your experience and his, which is going to cause some issues anyway - and you need to check these issues are resolvable before you plan another baby, IMO...

- Babies are pretty easy, generally (apart from the sleep deprivation bit! confused ) so new parents usually get a relatively easy 'introduction' to parenthood. Four children aged 2-10 are not easy, not by any stretch of the imagination... He is going to have a shock when he moves in, and you need to know he can handle it - for your kids' sake as well as your own.

- If a new dad 'fails to test', and leaves when a baby is just a few months old, that baby will not be hurt - it is too young to know. But your older children will be...

flow4 Tue 05-Feb-13 00:18:37

Oops, that was answering your 'tested' point, not your 'suck it and see' point - sorry!

flow4 Tue 05-Feb-13 00:22:26

I think the bottom line is, you've got to see if he can handle being dad to the kids you've already got before you decide to have another one with him...

Your age is an added pressure, but it doesn't change this truth.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 00:23:33

he probably doesn't even realise that if we lived together full time we would rarely, if ever, have sex again anyway! Let him suck that and see. . ;) sleep time for me. Thanks so much all.

DioneTheDiabolist Tue 05-Feb-13 00:30:24

Spirited, your post really struck a cord with me. I am a SM, my DS's dad is very absent and I too have been in a Rahul with a younger (childless) man for nearly a year.

You need to think really carefully before you move this man in. He has told you that he wants a biological DC. You don't seem so sure and the truth is you wouldn't even be considering it had he not said what he said.

What if you can't have another DC? What will be the effect on your rship with him? What will be the impact on your DCs if you have another DC/if this rship doesn't work out/if it does? Do you really want another baby?

Your BF has made it clear that any future you share is dependent on you having a child together. This is not something you can guarantee, even if you do find it desirable.

I know that you love him. You also love your DCs. Perhaps a better idea at this time would be for him to move closer to you (not in with you).

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 07:36:23

If your previous relationship was abusive, your radar will be off unless you've worked flipping hard on yourself.

I'd guess that you haven't. You're coming over as desperate to find a father for your dc, rather than protecting them, and being the one true parent they can rely on.

A family friend for 20 years means nothing, you don't know this man. I bet everyone that knows your ex would say he's a nice bloke.

It takes on average 2 Years for some abusers to show their colours, or something like having a child.

He said he'd leave if you don't agree to trying for a child. I don't like this, it's manipulative. Normal men with brains would discuss, and understand that a 40 yo mother of 4, may not want to have any more. He's thinking of himself only here.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 07:40:04

I'm not saying he is abusive, I can't know that for sure.

What I AM saying is that on the situation you describe here, categoricalky, neither can you.

You appear vulnerable and that places you and your dc at risk.

Slow down.

sparkle12mar08 Tue 05-Feb-13 07:59:03

When a man tells you who and what he is, LISTEN to him. He's told you that he want a child of his own and nothing, nothing you've said here suggests that you actually want another child yourself. I'm not necessarily ascribing manipulative intentions to his stating it, but he has been very honest with you and I'd suggest he's telling the truth. You need to finish with him for your own worth and that of your children, becuase what is also clear is that he will never accept your four as his 'own'.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 09:42:21

I am not desperate to give my kids a dad. . if i was i would not have gone through years of harassment and alienation by my own family while their own dad made everyone's lives a misery. . but yeah, i haven't given up hope of ever having a partner. This current guy proposed- i declined. I don't feel desperate. Rather i don't want to pass up a chance of happiness. Women in relationships often give the man the same ultimatum. He says he never wanted kids until he saw me with mine. He does constantly reference my ex, who is loaded, professionally successful etc and accuse me of seeing him as second best and nothing but a substitute for me"the ex"

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 09:43:22

Sorry. . Phone is rubbish even when i preview post

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 09:47:31

Sorry, but that post confirms it.

You are in no place to be doing this, the guy is rushing you, and you are falling for another one.

Get out now.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 09:50:48

You mean because he compares himself to my ex? Feeling inadequate etc?

Kiwiinkits Tue 05-Feb-13 09:58:44

I dunno Hissy, are you sure you're not projecting some of your experiences on to the OP? It just sounds like he's being honest about what he wants out of life - wanting one's own biological kids is fair enough for a 30 year old, I reckon.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 11:11:17

You suffered at the hands of an abuser for the same reason every other victim does, cos you get trapped. You fall for it.

You got out, cos it was the right thing to do. Staying in it would have been wrong.

putting your kids in a vulnerable position, looking for a father for them is just asking for trouble. All of your posts are about HIM, and the need for your DC to have a dad, FFS, you've even talked about him adopting them.

You say your instincts are off, you say your Ex is forbidden from seeking contact. You have history for attracting a damaged man, he's damaged you AND your DC, and here you are talking about another man, who you have NO day to day live in, Long term relationship experience with potentially adopting them.

What have you done to prevent yourself from falling prey again? Have you done therapy, the freedom programme, attended group, read books to help you heal?

If you've not done much or any of this, you'll be still as vulnerable as you were the day your abuser left.

This stuff doesn't heal by itself. Ever.

Maybe I'm not so sceptical as some of the posters on here, but my own story is different. I had a young son who had no contact with his biological father. I met someone else (who had no experience of children) and we got engaged after a year, married after another year. We didn't live together until we were married. He adopted my son and we went on to have more children. We've been married for 17 years and my oldest son thinks of him as his Dad. It can work, especially if you talk through what you both want and expect beforehand, it sounds to me like he is being honest about his expectations. It's up to you whether you feel you can meet those expectations or not. No-one else can make that decision for you. If you have reservations be honest about them. Good luck

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 11:34:57

I am not co dependant if that's what you mean. .and i don't feel i have a history of attracting abusive men. I feel i have a history of being incredibly strong and getting out of the one abusive relationship i was in. And getting out when i was pregnant and when he mounted a campaign of abuse against me, ignoring court orders and throwing his money about through the courts.I am proud i got out and do not see myself as a victim or as vulnerable.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 11:36:20

Happy for you both, Justfor. Thanks.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 14:04:05

Not projection. Fact.

I'm involved in a charity for DV victims. If the issues that lead someone to an abusive relationship are not addressed, they just sit there, waiting.

I know of women coming to groups 25 YEARS after the end of a DV relationship that need help resolving the issues they had.

Abusers target the vulnerable. We're made vulnerable by wanting to please people, having a poor view of ourselves, often bestowed on us by our parents, and no confidence to enforce our boundaries.

Once you've been targetted once, you will be again, until you lose the vulnerability.

If OP was talking about the new bloke and his deseire to have kids, but his uinderstanding that she might not want any more, it'd be one thing, but he's made a threat to leave unless she tries! All of this in a only year of sporadic relationship, during which he's proposed (!) 10 years of family friend really means nothing.

A normal, rational man, dating a 40+ yo woman would have to know the risk of a genuine and understandable possibility that she might not want more. He'd be ok with that, or would have never embarked on the relationship at all.

He's placing his own needs above hers, or he'll leave her.

And she's sleepwalking into it.

He's 30, OP is not. If he wants a ready-made family, all well and good, but I see unbalance here and it's unhealthy. It's setting OP to be ridiculed for lacking in fertility, no matter what he says now, and her feeling 'spent'. seeing how she already thinks her DC are in need of pity as they are fatherless, and therefore she is not enough, it suggests a poor self-image.

He should be accepting you as you are spirited, as a package, for now. Anything else in the future is a bonus, not something to scare you with. You have to see this, surely?

If he wants his own family, then dating someone over 10yrs his senior is not ideal. It's not a pop, it's biology.

I don't think this man is right for you, and I think he'd not be right for your DC.

Time will tell, but radical changes need take place before then, and lots of work on your part sprited, lots of thinking and lots of watching how he is.

I know you want the happy ending. You really do deserve one, but the foundations for that have to come from a strong you, one that knows you ARE good enough, and that your DC ARE happy, safe and that all they need is a decent parent, not pair of parents.

I don't see any of that.

I promise you, end this, work on yourself, heal the pain of the ex, shrug off the hurt and vulnerability and you WILL find a man that loves you JUST the way you are, that pitches in, that accepts and loves the DC equally, and doesn't ask for you to prove a thing to him.

I'm not here to attack or upset, I'm here to point out that you are better than this. This man is a transition, the better one is around the corner, don't settle!

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 15:48:18

Hissy, thanks for taking the time to write all this. I will take some time to consider what you have said.

flow4 Tue 05-Feb-13 16:32:39

FWIW, you're not coming across to me as co-dependent or 'damaged', spirited. You're coming across as considered and thoughtful - someone who has found herself in a tricky real-life situation, and who is weighing things up carefully.

Hissy's post is useful though: what she's describing is true for many women, and considering what/whether any of it is true for you is the equivalent of picking up a rock and looking at whatever's hiding underneath - which is a wise thing to do, under the circumstances.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 16:37:17

Thanks Flow. . i might just wait till the kids grow up and go live in a caravan with the dog smile

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 16:53:06

No love, it's not about giving up, or waiting till the kids grow up, it's about making sure you are safe, strong and the best/happiest you can be.

I'm 44, I've had to do all that I suggested to get where I am today. In many ways being in a DV relationship, while horrific at the time, has forced me to look at myself, challenge what others told me I was/am, telling them all to Jeff Off and now I'm stronger and happier than I've ever been in my life.

If ANYONE said anything followed with 'or I'll leave you' I'd tell them to go right there and then. And I'd mean it too.

I've got rid of at least half my family, as they set me up for it all, the Ex is toast and thousands of miles away. I'm seeing someone for about a year now, but could never have done without the Freedom Prog, without counselling and also a great deal of toughening up through a light bit of twunt sifting internet dating.

The transition man idea is really empowering. I know that I adore my boyf, but if it's not meant to be, I'll end it and know that I had something to learn from him, to be able to move on to the next. I don't have the pressure of fertilty, as I don't think I can have any more DC, and athough it'd be nice for DS to have a brother, a step-sibling'd be just as good if not better in some ways.

YOU are the most important person in your life, and also in the lives of your DC. They will always thinlk you're good enough, n o matter what.

You just have to believe it too.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 16:56:53

I was a victim. I was vulnerable. No harm in admitting that, it keeps us strong.

It's what you do with it next.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 17:03:42

i did ask him if it was a deal breaker. . he gave me his answer and also referenced my ex asking why i gave so much to the abusive person yet don't think he himself is good enough to have a child with. I just point out i left the abusive person and actually have a restraining order and a family court ruling to keep him away. Manipulative?

NicknameTaken Tue 05-Feb-13 17:08:23

I don't like the tone of that conversation, spirited. Sorry, just dashing out to collect DD, but that would give me pause.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Tue 05-Feb-13 17:09:15

OP... your scenario would scare me witless. I don't think you'd be a single mum to 5 because it sounds as if he doesn't have a child of his own, he'll find someone else he can have one with. That seems all important to him. I think I would be having a very clear chat about what constitutes a 'try' or not. Do your feelings, your childrens' feelings come into play here?

I suppose then that if you do conceive you'll just run the gamut of all relationships, the same as everybody else. Good luck with it all.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 17:25:30

thanks all. .

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 18:32:30

He really is 30 isn't he? (and that's the most positive thing I have to say about that conversation of yours)

He doesn't get it (or want to) you don't give to an abuser, they demand, they take, they guilt trip, they manipuate, threaten and control.

I do not like him seemingly punishing you for the past, your ex etc.

If nothing else, he ought to understand that it's YOUR decision too.

Sadly, there is a lesson to be learned here, and to then move on.

This is where you learn to trust your instincts, no matter how hard it is to hear them. This is where you learn that your family that Is already here DOES need to come first, and that you won't be convinced otherwise.

He's not good enough. He's not a partner. He's a PITA.

If you move him in, he'll think he has more rights to dictate your life.

He's wanting you to try harder than you did with an abuser. He wants you to give him MORE. A good man would want less and would want to give YOU more.

I have a feeling you traded a grade 9 abuser for a grade 6. He's not as bad, but he's at least 10 years behind the last one.

Think love. Just think. That's all we need you to do. The answer will come to you.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 18:41:50

Sorry, I was a bit harsh.

He's not a 6, more like a 3. but it's still not good enough, you need a ZERO percent manipulator.

They're out there. Promise you!

Would it help you to come post on the Emotional Abuse Support Thread? There are lots that are no longer in relationships that post, to help them understand, recover and heal. Your ex sounds terrible, you could do with being somewhere you were understood.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 18:55:22

Thanks for the direction Hissy. . i will definitely have a look. Tbh we have frequently had conversations which end in me justifying and explaining why i didn't leave the abusive partner sooner. Part of me is like, Fuck you. . i don't need to explain myself and part of me thinks many people don't understand the dynamics so i will try to explain. If i pull him up on something unrelated he will bring the ex up and say things like, how come you give me grief for xyz when you forgave HIM over and over for worse. I don't know if this is unjust, unfair or just completely thoughtless-or worse? Does it sound like a tactic? I have pointed out that it is pretty sick to think the more abuse you take the more you love someone.

BegoniaBampot Tue 05-Feb-13 18:56:42

i think you possibly are being harsh. you seem to be judging this guy on your own experiences. he has been honest and at least letting the op know where he stands. trying for kids is a deal breaker for many people. saying that, he sounds immature if he can't understand the dilema the op is in and given the op's position and past experoences, i'd probably have to say no. too much to risk and lose.

DioneTheDiabolist Tue 05-Feb-13 19:00:09

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Do you hear that? That's the sound of the alarm bells going off in my head when I read your 17:03 post OP. That conversation was manipulative emotional abuse and blackmail. Do you really want to spend your life with a man who says: you did it for him if you don't do it for me it means that you think xyz about me.

HildaOgden Tue 05-Feb-13 19:07:27

It's worse than thoughtless...it's a form of cruelty.

Next he'll be saying you must have enjoyed it (the abuse).

Do not move this man into your home.It won't end well sad

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 19:08:54

begonia, appreciate your comment, but this guy's NOT doing this stuff the right way. He is guilt tripping spirited, and demanding more than her ex is a giveaway.

Seeing as they all behave pretty much the same, it's fair to say that anyone who's seen this type of behaviour is well able to spot it.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 19:12:38

My ex used to say the same kind of thing about my ExH. It was right back at the start, so it's possible Matey's warming up.

As I said, it takes on average 2 years for abusive behaviour to come to the fore enough to be noticed. Stuff like this is often a toe dip.

Only time will tell. But tbh, I don't think he's worth waiting for.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 19:15:35

Out of interest spirited what WAS this guy's answer when you asked him about it being a deal breaker?

BarbarianMum Tue 05-Feb-13 19:25:42

<<He said he'd leave if you don't agree to trying for a child. I don't like this, it's manipulative.>>

Hissy I agree with a lot of what you have said, but not this. If having children is important to a person then it would be really, really stupid not to make your intended partner for life clear about that.

I love my dh, and prior to marriage we had no way of knowing if we'd be able to have children. But if he wasn't sure if he had even wanted to try then I would never have married him. If he had already had several children and therefore didn't want more then that'd have been his decision to make but mine would have been to look for another life partner.

The OP is in a tough position and I am by no means saying she should have a child with this man but whether her decision is yes, no way or 'maybe in a while' she should be honest with him.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 19:32:54

He said if it wasn't even a possibility then we would break up. . i asked what if we couldn't have a child and if he really wanted his own his odds would be much better with someone younger. He said if i wanted his baby and we tried but failed that would be different. I told him that boiled down to intent rather than the need for a child. He agreed. He also went on to ask why he didn't deserve to be part of the human race like everyone else, by this i assumed he meant procreation. He said my having children with the ex had robbed him of his chance to have a family.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 19:35:14

to be fair this conversation began with him asking for something to go on, like plans to move in together in 6 months for example as he feels in limbo. Apparently he always feels like the disposable person

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 19:37:11

Barbarian. . i do agree and i know many women who have based decisions on this

HildaOgden Tue 05-Feb-13 19:57:30

'He said my having children with the ex had robbed him of his chance to have a family'

Wow.Just Wow.

Do you really,honestly believe that he won't throw such a resentful statement back in your face over the years?And that he will love the children of your abusive ex as much as he would love his own bio child?

You're deluding yourself.The more I read what he's been saying to you,the more sinister it gets.

PoppyAmex Tue 05-Feb-13 20:30:51

"also referenced my ex asking why i gave so much to the abusive person yet don't think he himself is good enough to have a child with."

"He said my having children with the ex had robbed him of his chance to have a family."

"Apparently he always feels like the disposable person"

He seems to have serious self-esteem issues and all this sounds extremely manipulative.

I'm sorry, OP but if I had 4 DC at home I just wouldn't risk bringing someone like this into their lives (and mine).

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 20:47:10

Oh I absolutely agree with the 'he wants a child, I don't' thing. It isn't fair on him if there isn't a desire to have more DC, but in OP's defense (and as cack-handed as it sounds) what does he expect from a woman in her 40's with 4 kids already?

Surely the writing IS on the wall there that it's highly likely that she won't want anymore.

If that is the case, the kindest thing is to let him move on and find someone with whom he has a greater chance of having a family of his own.

I think him demanding that she try, while not apparently taking that much interest in getting his hands dirty, and moreover threatening her with being dumped is the key issue here.

He wants her to 'prove' her love for him by ttc a 5th child.

When she's done that' I think we'll all guarantee that there will be other tests. There always are when it starts like this.

spirited he's threatened that unless you try to have his child, he's off.

Normal men, in these circumstances, with more than a single IQ point don't do that.

You have to see that this guy isn't the kind of guy you should ever allow to adopt your DC?

As shit as my ex is, my DS is mine, and mine alone, I'd never consider having another man adopt him.

I think, in order for you to regain power in this relationship that you call his bluff, tell him you're not going to try and that he's welcome to leave. Don't even blink when you do it. You are more than strong enough to follow this through.

There are distinct advantages of NOT being 30, and one of them is being able to run rings around those that are.

grin

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 21:03:39

The way that this man says it is key.

If he were to say, 'if having DC together is not on the horizon, then tbh I can't see a longterm future for us' I'd not bat an eyelid. He'd be right, if DC were important to him.

If he's been quoted fairly closely, which on the face of it, he appears to have been, then he's manipulating now.

He's tapping into spirited's apparent fear (perhaps in his head only) of being alone. So many people think it's the worst thing on earth to be a single mum. At his age, with all the apparent ignorance that seems to go with it, why would he think any differently?

If you stand your ground, and state that you are happy as you are (if that is the case), or if you need more time to think, but that you're not sure, then he'll be able to see that you have an opinion, that it's valid and he can make the choice for himself.

Fwiw, I think it'll throw him a little, he won't be expecting it, and I'm sure he'll trot out more shite about the Ex.

I'd call him out on that tbh too. I'd say that the ex is none of his concern, that for him to compare himself is ill-advised and you'll not have any more of it.

What's his relationship history spirited? what's he had in the way of proper relationships? How many women has he been out with seriously?

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 21:57:01

I think about 3 longish term serious relationships. . he lived with his previous girlfriend, same age. She wanted to settle down- marriage and kids but he didn't. They ended amicably although she did turn up upset a couple of times and he was kind about it.

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 22:01:19

That's a bit odd, don't you think? confused

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 22:03:25

He wants the opposite to the women he goes out with?

Just because?

Viviennemary Tue 05-Feb-13 22:11:35

YANBU not to want any more children if you already have four. But I don't think he is being unreasonable to want his own biological child. I think this is one of these things that you are going to have to work out between you. But on the other hand it does ring alarm bells slightly idle. Hmmm. And also it is a bit like blackmail saying he will leave if you refuse to try for another baby. That's not good.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 22:15:06

Well he says he wasn't in love with her and he didn't want children until he spent time with me and my family. He says he has surprised himself by how he feels about the kids and that he now feels totally broody if he watches one born every minute etc.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 22:17:08

I hadn't thought of it that way Hissy

Hissy Tue 05-Feb-13 22:43:06

I don'tknow the answer, I'm surprised and at a loss tbh.

Dare say you might be too! :-)

Just think, watch, observe and think some more.

I'm not sure if there's something that doesn't add up here somehow.

Keep posting, if you find it useful of course, maybe time will tell what's going on,

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 22:57:16

basically the situation is he doesn't want children with anybody else and never wanted them until he was with me. He says he will leave if i won't try but i feel that's more as a reaction to what he feels to be, or chooses to portray as, a rejection ...since he still says he doesn't want to have children with anybody but me.

spiritedaway Tue 05-Feb-13 22:59:13

I am going to stick around and keep aware of how often i am made to feel guilty these days. And i will check out that other thread. Thankyou

whethergirl Tue 05-Feb-13 23:00:21

spirited, I notice that you haven't actually spoken much about your feelings about him? This all seems to be about him and your kids. You don't even sound that upset about the prospect of him leaving you, or you haven't seemed that enthusiastic about having a future with him...correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm afraid warning bells are ringing for me too. fwiw my ds doesn't have a dad, and I met someone who apparently fell head over heels for me from the word go. He too was eager to spend lots of time with me and ds as a 'family', ds adored him and he made so much effort with ds. He asked to marry me within 6 months.

In hindsight, I can now tell you that he was pretty dysfunctional, (which became more and more obvious over the 2 yrs of our relationship). He was very needy and desperately wanted a perfect family, it was fulfilling a need in him. He also had a dd and he used to say things like, he wished I was her mum and would tell others that I 'loved' her when I hadn't said that nor felt that way. All that 'love' he felt for ds - it wasn't real. It was more about him using that to stay with me, and about him feeling loved and needed.

I deeply regret I let him into my life so quickly as ds got very attached to him and was devastated when I split up with him. In his eyes, he had now lost 2 dads. I will never, EVER do that again. DS doesn't need a dad, he has me, I'm more than enough and he can depend on me forever. Btw, when I split up with him, he showed his true colours and got very abusive. That's not real love.

Please take care with him getting too involved with your children so quickly. Anyone can throw a few snowballs, it doesn't mean a thing. Don't take risks, your children are too vulnerable and too precious for that. They can depend on you. Can you really say, 100% that they can depend on him? He is already talking about leaving you (and them).

whethergirl Tue 05-Feb-13 23:02:59

Also, I would put a complete stop on him mentioning your ex like that. That is totally unreasonable and very cruel actually.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Tue 05-Feb-13 23:04:39

spirited... your post at 22:57 is a bit of a contradiction. Not yours - his. Or that's how it reads to me anyway.

He didn't want children with anybody previously... fatherhood not a priority then?
You've completed your family... he appears to be testing your strength of feeling towards him.
He doesn't love you unconditionally because he'll leave if you 'don't try'. Don't your feelings matter? After all, if fatherhood was really that important to him, he would have had children with somebody by now.
I don't believe that he's being genuine in what he says, it's very odd... and manipulative on a grand scale. You don't do that with the person you purport to love.

ElectricSheep Wed 06-Feb-13 00:10:52

Massive alarm bells for me too. I agree with everything Hissy has said.

It is far too soon imho for you to be contemplating allowing him anywhere near your precious vulnerable DCs.

I know will disagree, but I think it takes proper saintliness to make step ('blended' ergh) families work. It's just so fraught with potential resentments, inequalities, differing priorities and sheer territorialness (if that's a word).

He already seems to resent that you have had 4 DC with another man and to want you to show you love him more by being willing to sacrifice your own needs/wants as you did for your Ex. That's a really warped bit of thinking on his part and shows a horribly demanding/entitled attitude that's about what he can get out of you.

If I were you I'd look for someone nice to go out with, who wants to do nice things with you, but I would not be thinking of moving anyone in until your DC had left home.

ElectricSheep Wed 06-Feb-13 00:11:39

* I Know others will disagree

Hissy Wed 06-Feb-13 07:43:55

I think setting out the stall to say, this is me, this is my situation, it works for us, and if anyone wants in, to an extent, they have to fit in and muck in.

I think you ARE beginning to look at your own part in your life, and that is the key issue for recovery here.

If anyone's been in an abusive environment, they've been conditioned to over-ride their own needs and feelings. To an extent we nEed do that as a parent too. But it's not the healthiest way to be, not for us, or for our DC. Our self esteem is paramount, our happiness is key.

Happy Mum, happy kids. Set the example that your DC need to see, that they will be uppermost in your thoughts, but so are YOU sometimes. Everyone else comes after that ON MERIT!

I met a guy like whethergirl described, he went all out to acquire a family, my instincts screamed at me all through his showering me with gifts and leaflets for things to do with my son. He talking about moving in, about us all going out together. This in less than a month!

I learned to trust my instincts there and then, and to know that I could protect myselt and my son. I dumped him. Had to call the police for him to take it seriously though. The guy was a friutloop.

There are men - usually with the dreadful family backgrounds - that do go for the readymade family. In my case it may have been down to the fact that he was actually impotent, but the insecurity triggered by the lack of consistent and positive parenting was also extremely prevalent in this man's background.

it's not the bad background, the desire for a family, that's understandable. it's the lfallout from it when the thinking is warped, the engths to which they'll go to get one, to trample over our feelings to get their way. It's this that is concerning.

spiritedaway Wed 06-Feb-13 09:52:09

Sounds so much like my ex who was the most supportive person i had ever had in my life..until about 6 months after our daughter was born. I was completely vulnerable when i met him. My ex husband was threatening suicide, having no contact with the our little 2, i had no financial support, couldn't pay the rent and was looking at eviction. Enter knight in shit stained armour. I don't actually feel so vulnerable now. . we are financially independent, though skint, and have, so far, escaped a powerful narcassist who has access to sensitive information. I have had some counselling and done a lot of reading. I know the signs on paper but now i am not sure if i am seeing them everywhere. . does that make sense? Also the person i am with can not get his head round what happened and definitely has this idea that i must have adored my abuser because i didn't get out. This despite the fact i have got out!

spiritedaway Wed 06-Feb-13 09:56:57

FWIW. . bf's mother suffered abuse from his step father and she stayed for a few years. When he wants to talk about why i didn't get my kids out i think he really wants to talk about why she didn't get him out.

Hissy Wed 06-Feb-13 10:35:13

Given his background, he understands all to well the dynamic, but is re-hashing it to keep you reliving it.

It could be that his own hurt makes him do that, but that's no excuse for him to be so unsupportive, and so damning of you. You ARE strong, you DID get out. You are safe, you are free. You have nothing to be answerable for.

Your past is none of his concern.

My ex did this and it was maddening!

spiritedaway Wed 06-Feb-13 10:52:13

it really is no excuse. . though a weakness of mine is i empathise and rationalize other people's motivation for being twatty smile

Hissy Wed 06-Feb-13 11:08:15

Yep, that's what 'enables' others to treat us badly.

Been there, done that.. smile

I think it's potentially what makes us susceptible.

NicknameTaken Wed 06-Feb-13 15:53:32

Sorry I posted and ran yesterday, but don't like this guy's tone. I agree, if someone wants a child, of course it's good to be upfront. But it's this attitude he has to your abusive ex - you'd expect a new partner to feel compassion for you (and I don't mean some kind of saviour complex, riding to your rescue thing, which isn't healthy either). Instead he seems to have this weird kind of jealousy because it meant you "gave" your ex so much. He doesn't sound an emotionally healthy person to have a relationship and especially a child with.

hamdangle Wed 06-Feb-13 16:19:54

If you don't want another child then you shouldn't have one because someone has threatened you! Regardless of how wonderful the man seems no relationship comes with a guarantee and if you feel that you couldn't cope with raising five children on your own then you need to say no.

I don't think him wanting another child is necessarily a rejection of your children but I can understand how it would feel that way. I met my husband when my son was 5. He has never met his dad so DH is a father too him. We have only just had a child together after 11 years and only because DS has grown up and I got a bit empty nest. DP never felt the need though because he saw DS as his own. He's always been very involved though. In fact, he did clubs, activities, book bags, PE kits and all that stuff (including all cleaning and laundry) because I'm a bit of a disorganised mess. If this man was right for you then he would be coming into your life to help take up some of the burden and responsibilities not put upon you more!

Writehand Wed 06-Feb-13 16:25:33

I'd offer a compromise: let's live together for a year then, if we still feel the same, let's get married and try for a baby. Put it to him that he really has no idea at present what it's like to be a SD 24/7, and he may hate it.

Your misgivings about being a single mum of 5 are very understandable, and surely he must see this? OK, as people say, marriage doesn't stop people leaving but it tends to make people consider what they're entering into in a serious way.

Hissy Wed 06-Feb-13 16:59:35

I think he ought to live NEARER for a year, not move in just yet.

I think if he can stop whining on about the ex, and everything else that's frankly none of his business then you may give him a chance at moving in with you.

You have too much to lose by moving him in with you and your DC too soon, better you get to know the real him first before sharing a roof with him.

spiritedaway Wed 06-Feb-13 23:41:14

Thanks y'all smile. Been giving the trying for a baby thing lots of thought. Either he really wants his own child but loves me so much he can't imagine leaving me or he needs me to try for a baby to prove something. Wish i knew which. Because i know he is insecure i am guessing it's the latter. Also because of how the conversation went at the time. I do think he loves me, though sometimes in a bit of a frantic way. I love him a lot. I connect with him and i just feel i understand him and his past hurts, even though he doesn't talk about it i know a lot about his past circumstances. That doesn't make it good though. . i can't take a risk. I feel pretty bereft at the thought of losing him though so a frank talk is in order. Wish me luck. Sorry to witter on so but this really helps. My friends are all seemingly happily married and although i have some fab, supportive friends, i don't want to start banging on about another relationship after the mental drama of my last. . so thanks again x

Astelia Thu 07-Feb-13 00:28:05

He sounds desperate for a baby and is putting you under huge pressure to have another child. Yet you already have four. Statistically it doesn't look good and I would think that you will end up looking after five by yourself because he will not cope with the day to day hard work of bringing up children.

It is hard enough bringing up your own children who you have known all their lives, who know the expectations, who (hopefully) respect you as a parent, who share extended family with you.

Being parachuted in would like being put in charge of a school boarding house where you don't get to send them home and they all know more than you do. Add in perhaps not much space and not much money as there are so many people. It is a recipe for stress and chaos.

My cousin did have a fifth baby with a new man, it all went pear shaped of course. None of the children are doing well and her elderly parents are taking a lot of the strain.

spiritedaway Thu 07-Feb-13 00:41:25

Really well put Astelia. . hard on her parents! lucky for mine they live far away;) Hope everything yours out for your cousin and her children.

spiritedaway Thu 07-Feb-13 00:44:24

Luckily for my parents they live far away ;-) Hope everything works out ok for your cousin and her children.

spiritedaway Thu 07-Feb-13 00:45:54

i cross posted with. . . myself! It disappeared 1st time :-)

Hissy Thu 07-Feb-13 07:32:14

The evidence does point to the latter. The stuff about the ex, the threats, it's all there.

I don't doubt he thinks he does love you, but I think he has that confused with 'need' he has a NEED for a family, and one of his own. I can't see anywhere in all this that he's thinking of your feelings.

I can see you only thinking of him, because he's demanding you to. Gradually now, you are beginning to think about YOUR thoughts and feelings, and those of your DC you already have.

It's good that this is a LDR, cos at least you do have the space to think.

Your relationship is in no way ready for the 'having a baby' conversation. You need to be 100% sure of him, and I don't think, given his behaviour, that you can be.

The most responsible thing to tell him now is 'Not Now.' And at the moment, if he pushes you, or threatens you, the answer is a flat No. If he wishes to ignore your right to decide, your right to wait, then that's not on.

You owe him nothing, except honesty. If you don't want any more DC, that's your decision. If he wants to make it a dealbreaker, that's his decision.

It really IS that simple.

Things happen for a reason. This man is a transition, you've learned all you can from him. Next one will be better. Please don't stay on for the sake of a year, it's nothing. There is no such thing as a relationship investment.

Hissy Thu 07-Feb-13 07:38:26

I don't necessarily think he is desperate for a baby though.

He's desperate to make a point. For you to prove yourself to him, because of his past.

My ex demanded I pass all sorts of tests. There was always one more thing I needed to prove.

This is the guy's first year, and this is his first test. He wants control. I have a feeling it's THAT more than anything.

Only you will know if that could be true spirited.

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