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to ttc if I think I will abort if the HG sets in again?

(506 Posts)
ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 17:26:48

So DH and I have conceived immediately on two occasions, one early miscarriage and one birth. I had hideous soul destroying sickness almost all of the way through pregnancy. We are beginning to start thinking about having another child, but I feel almost certain I couldn't go through another pregnancy like the last one. My understanding of HG is that it is unlikely to strike twice (although you are slightly more likely to get it if you had it before) and that each pregnancy may be fine or not.

So is it unreasonable to ttc if I think I might abort due to HG?

If we conceive and then I get horribly sick is it unreasonable to abort and try again?

Given we would only ever have one more child and seem to be able to conceive at will this might be more a case of choosing to bring to term the baby that doesn't make me horrendously sick for 9 months rather than wasting life etc.

I'm not sure I can really buy into that argument though....

(ps. if you are of the never abort under any circumstances camp then please don't bother posting...I know that opinion exists and am not in the slightest bit swayed by it. I am interested in hearing from other with grey zone opinions on abortion as to which side of their personal line this falls).

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 17:31:13

Well, I suffered with awful sickness in both of my full term pregnancies, despite being assured that it wouldn't necessarily happen again

In my experience, I think the risk is high once you have already had HG

So, personally I would make my decision as to whether to ttc with that in mind. You could have several attempts, and need to face the prospect of termination every time.

socharlottet Mon 04-Feb-13 17:31:53

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nefertarii Mon 04-Feb-13 17:32:47

As someone who has had am abortion I would not ttc. I couldn't go through it a second time. I certainly couldn't purposely get pg knowing that I would abort.

Not judging but that's my opinion. I was under the impression that hg is more likely to manifest in someone who has already had it. My sip had it with both.

No one cab tell you what to do. But having experienced abortion I think yabu and if I were in this situation I would have stuck at one.

KateBeckett Mon 04-Feb-13 17:33:05

Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable aborting a potentially (probably?) completely healthy baby which I had tried to conceive because of sickness in pregnancy.

I can understand why you would consider it, but that would be over the line for me. If I were you and absolutely sure I couldn't go through a pregnancy like that again, I would consider stopping at one or looking into adoption / surrogacy / other options.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Mon 04-Feb-13 17:34:03

Hiya. I had HG with all three of mine, with large gaps in between while I worked up the courage to try again.

I had better meds with no 3 but still it was horrendous and as you say. soul destroying. I spent months in bed, unable to care for my other children properly.

I am never going to do it again but then, I have my children already and I am so sorry for you in your current position wanting another.

You may not have it again. I've heard stories both ways. But though I am pro choice, in the grey area around abortion - and, relevantly, I considered it all three times with mine, I think it's a really sad thingto think of having a 'trial' pregnancy and aborting if it makes you sick, then trying again for one that doesn't sad

I found I was unable to go through with abortion in my circumstances, but I can see why people do it. Having had my babies I can't imagine being withoutthem.

Tbh the HG was dreadful but it went away in the end. I was fortunate - mine stopped mostly around 22-25 weeks. I had other problems after that but nothing as bad as the HG.

Keep thinking and good luck x

AmberSocks Mon 04-Feb-13 17:35:29

yabu

Bearfrills Mon 04-Feb-13 17:35:51

YANBU.

You know in yourself what you can/cannot tolerate physically and mentally. I've never had HG but I imagine it to be relentlessly soul destroying. Normal morning sickness was bad enough and I know people often don't make the distinction between morning sickness and HG which must make it even worse being told it's "only" sickness.

Second pregnancies are often harder with a toddler in tow too.

A decision to abort is your decision, the same as the decision to continue a pregnancy.

Good luck, whatever happens.

But how would you know whether any sickness was HG and not just bad morning sickness? How many weeks would you have to suffer before you made the decision?
I mean how do you know that if you aborted at say 12 weeks that the sickness wouldn't have stopped at 13 weeks?

I haven't suffered with HG myself but have family members that have. If it were me, I would only TTC if I was sure I could cope with the whole pregnancy and all it may entail. I suffered PGP with my first, I wouldn't try for a second if I wasn't sure I could cope with PGP again and that it'd be worth it

recall Mon 04-Feb-13 17:37:51

YABU

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 17:40:05

thanks for the opinions so far.

Does this depend on the likely hood of getting the HG? It sort of feels like it might. IF I thought the chances were 50:50 then there is no way I would do it. If they are 1:10...well maybe. 1:100 definitely.

All I can find is things saying it is more likely to have it in a pregnancy if you have had it before...not by how much.

livepoas Mon 04-Feb-13 17:41:00

YABU. Sorry.

Either ttc at a time when you can afford proper treatment for HG should you need it, like time off, hospital, persevering with sickness drugs etc

Or don't ttc.

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CinnabarRed Mon 04-Feb-13 17:42:55

I just can't imagine TTC a baby, getting HG, aborting, trying again, getting HG, aborting, trying again...

I would only TTC if I was sure I could cope with the whole pregnancy and all it may entail. I think this sums up my views.

I certainly wouldn't criticise you for deciding to stick at one. But I think it's wrong to TTC again if you don't think with as much certainty as you can muster than you would be able to see it through.

flurp Mon 04-Feb-13 17:43:12

YABVVVU!!
To deliberately get pg and use abortion as an option is disgusting!
I'm not anti abortion by any means but your post is quite upsetting.
If you can't cope with HG again then don't try to conceive again.
How can you justify aborting a baby because you don't like the symptoms of pregnancyshockshockshock

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 17:43:14

OP is not a troll, she is an established poster

I do remember feeling so bad during my pg's if anyone had offered to shoot me, I would have agreed to it

I undertook the 2nd one with full knowledge it could happen again though, and wouldn't have contemplated a termination for that alone.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 17:43:18

ICBINEG is not a troll, she's a regular poster.

Tbh I think if I were in your position OP (and I accept I'm not) I'd rather stick with one child than face the thought of aborting a baby I'd actively TTC.

birdsofshore Mon 04-Feb-13 17:43:48

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Mon 04-Feb-13 17:44:48

that's cos nobody can predict it though - some folk only have it once, others get it with their second pregnancy but not their first, others still have it with every pregnancy and with mine, it lasted longer each time.

No one can tell you if you'll have it again or not but I'd wager the chances are more than 1/10. So sorry sad

Did you have medication with your other baby? If not there may be something that works for you. That could make a difference. This is what I went into #3 thinking - and unfortunately though I started out very positive and hopeful, by about 7 weeks it was really getting to me and by 10 weeks or so I did reach the point again where I just wanted to die.

But having had a 6 year break I'd forgotten how bad it could be.

feministefatale Mon 04-Feb-13 17:44:55

I had horrible morning sickness, I remember wishing I woudl miscarry, I couldn't have brought myself to abort though. I personally wouldn't try and get pregnant knowing I would abort either. But I am prochoicse and it's your decision.

Pickles101 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:45:33

I think you are being naive to think that you can just keep re-concieving embryos until you get a pregnancy that doesn't come with any side effects.

How many nausea-inducing foetuses are you going to get through before you decide that you'll just put up with the vomiting?

Nancy66 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:45:45

It's not something that sits comfortably with me.

I think you either need to make your peace with the fact you may well have another horrible pregnancy or decide to stick to one child.

The idea of conceiving, aborting and then trying again (and possibly aborting again) is pretty unpleasant.

N0tinmylife Mon 04-Feb-13 17:45:47

YABU, it seems very wrong to me to say you would abort a healthy, wanted baby because it made you feel sick. I do feel for you HG must be absolutely horrendous, but if you can't cope with the possibility I would not TTC.

BabsAndTheRu Mon 04-Feb-13 17:46:02

YABU You could have HG with ever pregnancy, so on that basis its about what you want most in life. Do you want another child or not. You say you can't face HG again so no point trying to conceive.

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 17:47:17

this medical reference gives a risk in subsequent pg's as 29 times higher than if you had never suffered HG, or 16-19% higher probability

laluna Mon 04-Feb-13 17:47:29

Sorry YABU

This comes from one who has had HG twice and was hospitalised. I am pro choice but don't think it's right to plan a pregnancy that you are considering aborting before you have even started.

9 months of HG (which I know is grim) versus a baby's potential life is selfish. Sorry.

jumpingjackhash Mon 04-Feb-13 17:47:40

I would only TTC if I was sure I could cope with the whole pregnancy and all it may entail.

^ this.

Strangemagic Mon 04-Feb-13 17:47:51

Pregnancy isn't like trying on a pair of new shoes,keep on trying until you find some that fit,I suffered badly in my 1st pregnancy,but lessened in 2 and 3.

I put up with it because I knew my baby would make it all worthwhile.YABU.

5madthings Mon 04-Feb-13 17:48:01

iceberg I think you are Weiss to do your research before you get preg sand get a Dr onboard who will treat hg and be supportive.

I follow the leakyboob on Feb, she had severe hg in all six.! Of her pregnancies and did a post about how she contemplated abortion. She also has HEAPS of knowledge about hg and treatments and managing it etc.

If you find her page on fb she will help you find info and support.

phantomnamechanger Mon 04-Feb-13 17:48:34

I have had HG - hospitalised for 6 days on a drip and nil by mouth, then home on meds. It is grim. I was ill right up till 6.5 months.

I have also had the misfortune of having to choose to terminate a much wanted pg - due to a very serious foetal abnormaility. This was grim beyond belief. I would much rather have been throwing up all day every day for 9 months. I would rather have lost an arm or leg than lose my baby (at 20 weeks), but the condition she had was incompatible with life. It was amazing that I got as far as I did without MC, apparently. Readers, if you are in the "I would never terminate" camp, then please beleive that you can never KNOW how you would react till you are in that place - and it depends on all your other circumstances too - eg other DC

OP - if you are a troll please grow up and go away where you wont be upsetting vulnerable people. If you are not a troll, please think very carefully about how much you actually WANT another child before ttc. It is OK to be scared and worry about HG - but would you really terminate just for that? I would not - especially as they say that its a sign of a good healthy pregnancy!

What does your OH say - its not JUST your decision

HecateWhoopass Mon 04-Feb-13 17:48:36

I thought that this was something that if you'd had it, you'd likely have it in every subsequent pregnancy?

My only source on information is the daughter of a friend of mine who suffered with it during each pregnancy and was told that she stood an extremely high chance of it happening in any future pregnancy

If that's right, then there would really be little point trying to concieve, since the odds are that you wouldn't proceed with the pregnancy.

Have you contacted any groups or anything for information on the likelihood of HG in pregnancy if you've had it already?

I think that repeated ttc and abortion would run the risk of destroying you emotionally.

Megatron Mon 04-Feb-13 17:48:45

I'm not sure I understand this. You are saying that you would abort a child solely because of HG, have I got that right?

If so, then it is of course entirely your choice but I most definitely think YABU and I had HG with both my children. Perhaps it would be wiser to stick with one child. What does your OH think about it all, would be be happy for you to abort your child for this reason?

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Mon 04-Feb-13 17:48:49

I think there is still a misconception of HG in that people are not aware just how terrible it can be. People often contemplate termination as a result.

But that doesn't affect what I said earlier about OP's plan.

WeAreSix Mon 04-Feb-13 17:48:49

No-one can measure what probability it is that you will get HG in subsequent pregnancies.

It is morally and ethically incorrect to carry out research on pregnant women and / or fetuses.

I also think that it is wrong to abort a healthy, tried for pregnancy as a treatment for HG. Have you thought about how many pregnancies you would terminate?

Viviennemary Mon 04-Feb-13 17:50:34

You should take medical advice on this serious matter.

sudaname Mon 04-Feb-13 17:51:26

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ChampyandtheWonderHorse Mon 04-Feb-13 17:51:42

'I think you are being naive to think that you can just keep re-concieving embryos until you get a pregnancy that doesn't come with any side effects.'

This as well.

PuffPants Mon 04-Feb-13 17:55:46

YABU.

I haven't had HG but it sounds appalling and utterly depressing. I am certain that if I was unlucky enough to suffer it once, that would be my last pregnancy.

Trying a pregnancy out for size with no commitment to seeing it through is thoroughly immoral.

You have the benefit of hindsight here, use it.

EuroShagmore Mon 04-Feb-13 17:55:48

"I would only TTC if I was sure I could cope with the whole pregnancy and all it may entail."

I agree with this. You would be v unreasonable to ttc if this is how you feel.

BalloonSlayer Mon 04-Feb-13 17:56:49

Maybe the OP is trying only out this mindset to see if it gives her the courage to TTC . . .

SuffolkNWhat Mon 04-Feb-13 17:57:14

You have my sympathies.

I had horrific HG with DD and at my worst I begged for an abortion (also had AND which clouded my judgement). We are TTC but with the full knowledge I am likely to get it again. What is different this time is we know exactly what to expect and which drugs worked best.

YANBU to feel the way you do but YABU to plan this from the outset IMO as it can be managed.

silverfrog Mon 04-Feb-13 17:57:33

I had HG with my second and third pregnancies (first pregnancy was ectopic, so also not without problems!)

being pregnant with dd1 was awful. 9 months of sheer misery and illness and hospital stays.

but, I still wanted and had dd2 2 years later. also awful, but this time I knew it would end (obviously I knew that the first time, but it seemed more open ended the first time I went through it), and that I owuld be ok afterwards.

5 years after that, I had ds. thankfully 'all' I had with him was normal morning sickness - still spent most of the pregnancy waiting for HG to kick in!

I could not do what you are thinking of - I only tried for another baby knowing that I woudl be able to get through it, however awful it was (and it was pretty bloody awful)

PuffPants Mon 04-Feb-13 17:57:57

And I think it would be better for you if falling pregnant didn't come so easily. You might be a bit less reckless if you had to wait months (or years) before trying again.

5madthings Mon 04-Feb-13 17:58:29

The op has said she might abort sure to hg and some women do abort for this/reason there was a prog I saw recently in a UK hospital where a mum had this, I have hardly seen a woman look so Ill. In the end she didn't abort but it took her being in hospital for most of her pregnancy and a huge amount if support from midwives and drs to get through it.

I think you need to speak to a consultant and get as much advice as you cans, look into treatments etc and get a plan drawn up by your Dr of what they can do if you get hg. If you have a plan in place and coping strategies and support you may feel better at continuing but you will need support and a plan. You casnt just go into this thinking you will abort if you get hg, there are options.

Ask said the leaky boob on fb has been through this and has great advice.

Tbh I think it is better that you are looking at your options niwthan blindly getting pregnant with the hope you won't get hg.

calandarbear Mon 04-Feb-13 17:59:10

I think YABU.

I had HG in my first pregancy and severe sickness in my second ( 5 times + a day but not hospitalised second time).

I got pregnant the second time knowing how bad it could be but also knowing I could get through it. If you don't think you can get through it then you shouldn't TTC

hiddenhome Mon 04-Feb-13 18:00:39

Disgusting, and I sincerely hope you don't conceive if this what you are planning sad

Softlysoftly Mon 04-Feb-13 18:01:36

I think you are panicking. I think that you truly want another child but are so terrified by how hg affected you (rightly so) that you need a safety line mentally. This is your back up parachute mentally

"Ill ttc then alert if it's horrible, I get pg easily".

I could be wrong of course. That said I think you need pepper medical advice and perhaps help to mentally prepare.

Think about how the mc affected you and now imagine you are choosing it (I am prochoice btw but know it's not as easy as you seem to think).

feministefatale Mon 04-Feb-13 18:01:57

What does your OH say - its not JUST your decision

well I agree in that if your dh knows you will be likely to abort he should be made aware of this as he may not choose to TTC. But obviously once you are pregnant it really is just your decision.

LynetteScavo Mon 04-Feb-13 18:03:01

I think you would be unreasonable to consciously conceive, knowing you would abort if you had HG.

I'm not going to go into my personal experiences under this user name, but if you know you are likely to get HG, plan for and prepare for it, before getting pregnant.

I've never heard before that HG is unlikely to strike twice....I really think some women are prone to it.

bigkidsdidit Mon 04-Feb-13 18:03:11

If you are pro choice (which I am) I don't understand the moral difference between aborting a foetus because of HG or because, I don't know, you found out your DH had been cheating and you left and were desperate (or any other situation). Surely if you are pro choice you are pro choice

DeepPurple Mon 04-Feb-13 18:04:12

I had dreadful hg with dd. I wouldn't attempt another pregnancy because of it. The stats show that many do terminate hg pregnancies so you are not alone. The chances of you having it again are quite high.

I don't think you are being unreasonable but another angle you have to consider; you fall pg, over the moon, start with hg and terminate. What then? Will you feel you want to try again? Would trying to have another baby make you want one more? What if every pg you have causes hg? Not trying would be easier to take than trying and not being able to cope.

There is only you who can make the decision though. Potentially, you could have hg to start with but it might go away at 12-16 weeks. How early would you make the decision?

I had a bad vomiting bug a few months ago. I was convinced my pill had somehow failed and that I was pg. I was devastated thinking my options were to carry on and suffer or abort. I couldn't face he thought of aborting. I was thrilled the test was negative! People who haven't had true hg can't understand just how dreadful it can be.

HumphreyCobbler Mon 04-Feb-13 18:04:24

I think those posters who are saying that the OP would be a crap mother are really out of order actually.

Heavensmells Mon 04-Feb-13 18:04:28

I've had a termination. I don't regret it it, it was completely the right thing for me and my family at that time.
But I could never go through it again, I think that you are not really taking the emotions, stress and the effect on your body into account. You seem to be very black and white about it all.

BartletForTeamGB Mon 04-Feb-13 18:06:09

"Readers, if you are in the "I would never terminate" camp, then please beleive that you can never KNOW how you would react till you are in that place - and it depends on all your other circumstances too - eg other DC"

I hear this so often here and it is so patronising. I would never terminate. I had a baby girl diagnosed with a condition incompatible with life. I knew I would never terminate before and didn't. I still would never terminate. I did know how I would react before & didn't need to be "in that place" to know it would be wrong.

As for the OP, I've had HG and severe nausea/vomiting in all 3 pregnancies. There is no way to tell if it is going to happen. It is likely to limit our desired family size. If you can't deal with the uncertainty, you shouldn't TTC.

Floggingmolly Mon 04-Feb-13 18:06:58

Just how many terminations would you be prepared to have before you called it quits? hmm. I'd be very wary of the "I seem able to conceive at will" mindset, also.
Lots of people suffer from completely unexplained secondary infertility - how would you feel if this happened to you after one of your voluntary terminations?

Flobbadobs Mon 04-Feb-13 18:09:53

The Op isn't a troll, quit calling her that.
ICBINEG I didn't have HG. What I got was bad enough for me to feel like AF did at times though so I can't help you with that.
I have however had a termination. Please be totally sure about your feelings before acting on them in the way you set out in your OP. i had mine 14 years ago, not long after I got with my now DH and it still sometimes gets to me now.
I'm still pro choice but I am also pro information. Arm yourself with every fact you can get your hands on, talk to knowledgeable people but above all be aware of how the decision will affect you in the long term, not just the short.

AmberLeaf Mon 04-Feb-13 18:12:26

I had HG with my second pregnancy.

The day after I found out I was pregnant with my third I went to the doctor and she gave me something to stop the sickness.

I cant remember the name, but if you google you'll probably find it.

Have you spoken to your GP about treatment if you do get ill in a future pregnancy?

JenaiMorris Mon 04-Feb-13 18:13:35

There are some revolting posts on this thread. It's the children of parents with such little empathy, imagination and intelligence that I pity tbh - not the OP's.

Why was it OK for me to terminate my pregnancy because I didn't want a baby and not for the OP? What rights would a foetus of hers have that mine didn't?

Don't listen to anyone who says abotion is always traumatic for the woman - they're talking out of their arse. But fwiw OP I suspect that termination might not be a good move for you should you end up with HG, because you'll always be wondering if the HG might have stopped if you'd waited another few days. I think you might find it hard to come to terms with.

AllDirections Mon 04-Feb-13 18:16:01

It's not unreasonable to be terrified of going through HG again but in all probability you will have it again. Your plan is based on a low risk of you getting HG so I think you need to reconsider.

I agree with Humphrey that some posters are well out of order. HG is horrendous and definitely affects rational thought, even after the event.

HumphreyCobbler Mon 04-Feb-13 18:16:14

There are some revolting posts on this thread. It's the children of parents with such little empathy, imagination and intelligence that I pity tbh - not the OP's.

YY to this.

fifitrixibell Mon 04-Feb-13 18:19:53

have you researched your options for dealing with the HG if it should start again, other than abortion? I have to say that i know several women who have had HG with each pregnancy and it has got worse each time sad. I wish you well, whatever your decision.

EnjoyResponsibly Mon 04-Feb-13 18:19:57

I'm with those that think you simply cannot underestimate how awful a termination of a perfectly healthy and wanted (albeit for HG) foetus would be.

I never had HG, so I can't comment on that part. But I do think that unless you can get the appropriate healthcare and home support lined up to deal with HG you should stick at one child.

Megatron Mon 04-Feb-13 18:20:17

Jenai I think perhaps that people feel differently about someone who doesn't want a baby and someone who does but will abort for the reasons the OP has given.

As usual though, some posters take things too far.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 18:22:50

What you propose would certainly be over my line.

I think you should maybe look into getting some counselling before you even conceive, terminating a child who is very much wanted won't be an easy choice to make.

I had to have some counselling when pregnant as my daughter died from what turned out to be a genetic condition and I may have had to terminate a very much wanted child. I was very lucky I didn't have to but the counselling helped me get my head around it.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 18:23:50

I agree with that Jenai

GrowSomeCress Mon 04-Feb-13 18:24:46

YANBU

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 18:24:47

ICE I had severe HG with my first born. It was a dreadful dreadful time, I'm talking not even keeping water down, hospitalisation five times, vomiting almost 30 times a day. I truly truly thought I might actually not make it myself through the pregnancy never mind DC.

I feel for you I really do, the thought of going through it again is git wrenching.

But I will go through it again because now when I see his little face I realise it was worth it. I personally couldn't stomach the thought of terminating due to HG as if I had then DS wouldn't be with us bringing so much joy today.

I do understand why you are frightened but perhaps like some other posters have said you might consider if you are strong enough to do it again, warts and all, and if not then perhaps you should hold off.

I wouldn't want to think of you going through abortion after abortion until you possibly end up not being able to have any more at all. I don't know the statistics so please anyone help me out or correct me but I would think multiple abortions (as many as you would be prepared to have) can't be good in the long run with carrying a baby to term.

It would be heartbreaking if you missed the boat completely.

Tailtwister Mon 04-Feb-13 18:26:22

If I were in your position I wouldn't ttc. I couldn't knowingly get pregnant with the intention of using abortion as an option should HG return. I haven't had HG, only normal morning sickness and can only imagine how horrendous it must be. I can understand how you would never want to go through it again. However, I couldn't use abortion as get out clause.

FlouncingMintyy Mon 04-Feb-13 18:26:33

I am firmly pro-choice but I think it is way beyond any acceptable line to ttc if you know beforehand that there is a good chance you will abort. Everyone I know who has had hg has had it for all pregnancies.

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 18:26:45

Gut not git - to clarify OP I don't think you are a git blush

feministefatale Mon 04-Feb-13 18:27:35

f you are pro choice (which I am) I don't understand the moral difference between aborting a foetus because of HG or because, I don't know, you found out your DH had been cheating and you left and were desperate (or any other situation). Surely if you are pro choice you are pro choice

morality isn't black or white or even necessarily logical though is it?

OP how would you feel if you got pregnant and didn't have HG and then miscarried? Miscarried a wanted child? Because more than likely that is how your husband will feel because he won't also be feeling the HG.

Abortion tends to be for either medical reasons or to end the pregnancy of an unwanted child...yours wouldn't be. Don't assume an abortion is even an option..because you don't know that it is. Even if you had one previously, how do you know you could go though with an abortion of a child you wanted? Presumably once the hG stopped and you were done with the pregnancy grieving would start. It would be a miscarriage, and how many would you choose to put yourself through? because many women suffer guilt after a miscarriage, they question the food they ate, their job, the sports they did. Would you after ending a healthy pregnancy of a wanted child be able to handle that kind of potential guilt?

MrsWolowitzerables Mon 04-Feb-13 18:29:15

YABU.

I think you're quite likely to get HG again once you've suffered from it once. If you're not willing to take that chance then don't TTC. If you keep getting HG with each pregnancy when will you decide enough is enough and either see the pregnancy through or quit TTC?

Also how far into the pregnancy will you decide that you want to abort? Maybe you'll have bad morning sickness and not HG but you could abort not realising.

Either you want a baby or you don't. There's risks with all pregnancies but I dont think it is ethical to TTC with the intention of aborting to save yourself a few months worth of fucking awful illness.

Hobbitation Mon 04-Feb-13 18:29:40

I never had HG, so I can't comment on that part.

There lies the problem with most of the posters criticising the OP on this thread.

NellysKnickers Mon 04-Feb-13 18:29:40

I've had it twice. Even if I fell pregnant again by accident and suffered it again, no way would I abort a healthy baby because of it. If you feel that strongly don't ttc as you are very likely to get it again. Hoping you are a troll as this post is despicable.

Losingexcessweight Mon 04-Feb-13 18:33:10

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IAmLouisWalsh Mon 04-Feb-13 18:33:45

Totally support right to choose and everything else. But to TTC with an abortion in mind already just doesn't sit right.

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 18:34:40

OP is definitely not a troll. She contributes regularly and is quite level headed, perhaps we should give her a bit of a break.

Everyone is different, while I couldn't do it myself and wouldnt think of it as an option I don't judge her for contemplating it, it's a truly horrific experience.

She isn't being blasé about it she is seeking opinions on a matter clearly troublesome for her. Valid opinions be they for or against of course but not spiteful remarks, that's not what she has asked for.

MrsHoarder Mon 04-Feb-13 18:34:54

I wouldn't ttc in the knowledge that I am prone to a condition which would cause me to abort. And I don't think I could go through with your plan.

Look into the figures, have a discussion with your gp and maybe have some counselling.

I really recommend you have some sort of counselling before you attempt to ttc, op .

I must admit to being a bit shock at what you're proposing- and I've suffered severe HG myself, more than once.

StinkyWicket Mon 04-Feb-13 18:36:42

I am pro-choice. Definitely.

But I think it shows a really weird attitude to be considering it should you get HG again. If you think you wouldn't cope, IMO you shouldn't TTC. Ever. And I can't get over that you would consider aborting then trying again later!

5madthings Mon 04-Feb-13 18:36:46

Its. Not despicable,women do terminate for hg, it can be utterly debilitating and she isn't sating she will def terminate but that she might, it would be an option but hopefully any medical professionals involved in her care would make sure every other option had been tried first.

I a, pro-choice even if just not a choice iu think I can make and having never had hg I am not in a position to know what I would do.

icb get good medical advice, research and arm yourself with info and get a plans. Make sure you have your dh or someone else to act as an advocate for you so if you are Ill they can fight your corner and make sure you get treatment and support.

You can treat hg quite aggressively and almost pre-empt it, I don't know the details but as I said before the fb page I mentioned has lots of asdvice and there must be online support forums?

Chunderella Mon 04-Feb-13 18:38:51

Softlysoftly's post is exactly what I thought. You sound like you're desperate and grabbing out for any solution. But if you're genuinely serious OP, it doesn't sound like a very practical approach. I've never had an abortion but have heard they aren't much fun. Terminating a wanted pregnancy because of how ill you are would probably be very emotionally gruelling. You could possibly end up conceiving, enduring weeks of sickness before being clear it's HG and getting an appointment, then going through an abortion too, potentially more than once. That sounds pretty horrible.

And you definitely need medical advice on this. You could talk to your GP about likelihood of getting it next time so at least you're making an informed decision. Or, if they can't give you any idea, you'll at least know you won't be able to make an informed decision.

CheerfulYank Mon 04-Feb-13 18:39:29

Yabu.

HG is horrendous though...what I had was mild compared to some, but the nausea and resulting constipation from the medication are still some of the most awful physical things I've ever experienced.

I would make sure you can get medical assistance, not just some Dr who will say "oh, try ginger biscuits."

Theicingontop Mon 04-Feb-13 18:40:32

I couldn't. But it's really up to you, isn't it?

And your husband. I don't know if, in his position, I'd be able to see your point of view.

5madthings Mon 04-Feb-13 18:41:27

To TTC with abortion in mind is wrong etc etc...actually I don't think it is.

I have five children all very much wanted and planned but has I got do Ill that it was a risk of compromising my long term health (and hg can compromise your long term health) or if there has been a problem with the baby I would have thought about abortion. I have no idea what I would do as I never had to make that choice but I knew it was an option and a choice I could make.

Greensleeves Mon 04-Feb-13 18:41:58

OP I think the fact that you are thinking this way shows the scale of your fear of going through that hell again. I had a horrific pregnancy and birth too and it makes me shake if I think about it too much. Ignore the personal attacks - they are not worth your time

Can you ask for some specialist counselling to deal with your (completely understandable) fear and put together a plan of action for coping with HG a second time?

I also think you should consider posting this again in the pregnancy or health section. AIBU is full of idiots strong opinions

5madthings Mon 04-Feb-13 18:42:22

Had I got so ill

Flobbadobs Mon 04-Feb-13 18:44:01

I really hope some of you are never desperate enough to come on here for advice. I've read enough of her posts to know she's completely on the level, not a despicable person and and not a fucking troll!
ICBINEG I hope you can find a way through this, I (and most people on this thread) can't imagine what you must be going through at the moment. I wish you both well.

CheerfulYank Mon 04-Feb-13 18:45:13

But the thing about HG is, it's got a definite time limit. Yes, it is hell, but not forever.

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 04-Feb-13 18:45:32

Hello
Understandably feelings are running v high on this thread as it's an emotive divisive topic and that is FINE.

BUT we would still ask that people stick to our guidelines. regardless of reasonableness

For those who don't know about HG Mumsnet has info here

OP, do let us know if you'd like us to move this thread out of AIBU - perhaps our Antenatal Choices topic might be a more appropriate place?

Thanks

thefirstmrsrochester Mon 04-Feb-13 18:47:47

5madthings I salute you and the advice you give. HG made me want to give up. It's why I stopped ttc.

Crawling Mon 04-Feb-13 18:48:41

Yabvvvu.

5madthings Mon 04-Feb-13 18:53:31

Thanks thefirstmrsrochester I have never had it but have a few friends who have and have read enough to know it can be horrific. I can't judge any woman that finds herself having to think about having an abortion, even if she TTC's knowing it may be an option. Fgs I doubt its something the op actually wants to do, but she us right to think about it and to educate and arm herself with as much info as she can.

icb I hope you can gather the info you need, find a helpful, understanding and proactive Dr and midwife who will help you and support you xxx

SolomanDaisy Mon 04-Feb-13 18:53:42

I think you're probably underestimating the emotional impact a termination for HG would have. Is your HG pregnancy quite recent? I'd guess this is more about the trauma of that pregnancy than any real intention to terminate.

I had bad SPD and it definitely figures in considering whether/when to TTC again, mainly due to the impact it would have on DS. I wouldn't consider a possible pregnancy/termination scenario for it though.

betterwhenthesunshines Mon 04-Feb-13 18:55:17

I'm not anti-abortion. I haven't read this whole thread though as I think I would find it upsetting. I just have another way of looking at it....

With your current DC - go and look at them now - would you feel happy if you knew you had chosen abortion as a way to avoid the HG sickness?

I haven't had an abortion, although I have a close friend who had one, for very good reasons. I think she still finds it hard. It is something you have to live with for the rest of your life and I think that would only be possible if you knew your reasons for that decision were truly justified.

AngelaCatalano Mon 04-Feb-13 18:56:33

Yabu. I'm sorry you were so unwell in your pregnancy, but this proposed course of action isn't defensible, let's face it. And even if it was ethically ok, I think the emotional impact on you and your DH would be too great.

What would you do if you aborted a foetus and then couldn't conceive afterwards, for some reason (not necessarily linked to the abortion)? Could you live with that?

skullcandy Mon 04-Feb-13 18:59:08

I think YABU, i think if you feel the misery of HG would be too much to cope with then you would be better off sticking to one child and not TTC.

Its the decision i had to make over attempting a 3rd pregnancy after suffering SPD in both of my previous.. the first experience was bearable, hence my 2nd pregnancy.. but with my 2nd it became debilitating and i had to be signed off work at 18wks, was on crutches from 15 and in a wheelchair during the last 8 weeks.

I wanted another baby, but i couldn't put myself through that pain couldn't put my family through the inconvenience of the experience a second time and the drs informed me a 3rd pregnancy would leave me at risk of permanent disability.

You need to talk to the drs and make your mind up to either get pregnant and deal with everything carrying to term will involve, or not bother.

Abortion should not even be an option/consideration just because of sickness.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 19:01:58

I would have maybe liked to have had more children, but i know i would find the early months incredibly hard, perhaps with a petition of the pnd i suffered. For this reason i would not ttc again, even though

A) i might have an easier time
B) i know the crap times pass

Nowhere in my reasoning would abortion figure. To me this seems somewhat comparable.

MammytoM Mon 04-Feb-13 19:02:36

I have had HG and it is absolutely horrendous. I couldn't even drink water and spent three to four nights a week in hospital. I did have a few different meds but none worked for me. Absolutely nothing stopped it. Physically, it's the worst thing I ever had to go through. I had health problems afterwards too because if it. I can't count the amount of times I sat in floods of tears, feeling completely helpless and extremely ill. I may have wanted the pregnancy to go quicker but I never thought about aborting. Apparently abortion due to HG is quite common in America amongst those who have the condition.
How old is your DC? I can completely understand you worrying about having it again - I too have the same concern for if I was to have another. I think your DC has to be old enough to understand why mummy isn't well. I can't even Maine being away from my DS for three to four nights a week in hospital. Heartbreaking for go me and not fair on him. If I were you I would nt try to ttc if I thought I may want to abort due to HG. I can 100% understand what it's like, I've been there - but I can't imagine aborting a child I had wanted (who is healthy). As awful as HG is I think I could do it all over again if I wanted another child - it's horrendous but it's temporary (although seems to go on forever). Right now my DS is not even 18 months and I know I couldn't go through it again just yet. Maybe I never will come round to the idea - but if I don't then I will definitely not be ttc!
I guess what I'm trying to say is leave it longer before ttc and see if you feel differently. I think you have to be string to go through it twice, you have to really want the end result, that gorgeous bundle of joy at the end is priceless. Also, there's a chance if you abort due to HG and then get pregnant again you may still have HG on the third - would you abort again then? Your desire to have another baby has to outweigh the chance of HG. You need to be thinking you want the baby no matter what, HG or no HG

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 19:03:08

That was repetition, not petition in my post above

chandellina Mon 04-Feb-13 19:03:21

I think Yabu and that you shouldn't ttc if you already see termination as a real option.

It's interesting as always to see that many women (myself included) are only pro choice up to a point and do judge the reasons behind abortion.

splashymcsplash Mon 04-Feb-13 19:04:08

Yabu. Very u.

Your attitude towards a pregnancy as disposable is extremely disturbing.

After how many aborted pregnancies would you stop?

cupcake78 Mon 04-Feb-13 19:04:50

I've had it 4 times, 2 miscarriages at various stages one pregnancy full term and I'm 20wks pregnant now again with HG.

It is horrendous, truly truly horrendous and I have had moments of thinking I really can't do it any more. I have wished I wasn't pregnant. It is not just severe morning sickness it is so much more than that and mentally it destroys me. I did wonder at times if I would make it through without doing anything just to stop it.

Op, sorry but you are highly likely to get it again. It took me 5yrs before I could face pregnancy again and here I am.

If you can't do it again then don't get pregnant. Be happy with your dc and grateful that you have what many people would love.

One really important thing to remember with HG is that it does end, everyday your ill is one less day to suffer and you can get meds to take the edge off it.

But where would you draw the lines?

At what stage of pregnancy would you choose to abort, and draw the line between 'morning sickness' which may disappear, and hg?

How many attempts would you have? Would you stop trying after two attempts? Three/four/five?

What if you aborted #1 then had difficulty conceiving #2?

Are there any risks to your future reproductive health from having repeated abortions (especially if you're leaving them a bit later to see if symptoms emerge)?

If HG is enough to make you consider aborting future pregnancy/pregnancies then it would bode well to do a lot more research before tttc.

It would also be beneficial to research different possible treatments for HG if you were to suffer in future pregnancies. Maybe you tried all different meds last time, or maybe you didn't and it could be better treated were you to get it again.

This seems like an extreme response, and I think that rather than asking Mn for opinions you'd be better off talking with your partner, health practitioners, and doing some of your own research.

ENormaSnob Mon 04-Feb-13 19:07:25

Yabu

I had hg in each of my 4 pregnancies inc multiple hospital admissions.

AllYoursBabooshka Mon 04-Feb-13 19:10:36

Can I ask what help did you get in your last pregnancies to deal with the HG?

You need to speak to a doctor about this before making any decisions about ttc, don't be fobbed off. If you feel you doctor doesn't understand the severity (quite common) then seek out a second opinion. There are ways to manage HG if you get the right support and medication.

I'm currently pregnant with DC 2 and thankfully didn't get it again. It did however take me 4 years to feel brave enough to ttc, it's a huge deal to willingly put yourself in a position where you could be seriously ill, possibly for nine long months. It's relentless and the fear never leaves you but as I said, there are things you can do.

You are frightened and IMO looking at this all wrong. Get talking to people who can help and make a plan.

MerylStrop Mon 04-Feb-13 19:11:06

I understand how horrible it is, but really this isn't the right mindset to begin a pregnancy. If you really think possible HG is enough to make you terminate, then I don't think you are ready for another child. HG last a max 9 months, regret might last forever.

(I was sick all day every day through all my three pregnancies, but not to the extent of hospitalisation, but enough to make normal life nearly impossible, especially with my middle child.)

GirlOutNumbered Mon 04-Feb-13 19:12:58

Yabu.
If you can't go through with it again, then don't. Try speaking with professionals too. I'm sorry you feel like this.

CheerfulYank Mon 04-Feb-13 19:13:54

I also had pnd with my first...that pregnancy was terrible emotionally. DH really did not want me to have another and we put off TTC for 5 years.

I got pregnant with DC2 (due in May) on my first try and this one has been terrible physically, though thank God it has cleared up somewhat at 24 weeks.

Will I try again? I don't know. I definitely want more but I'm not sure any other biological children are in the cards for us.

If I knew for sure the pnd would return I definitely wouldn't TTC another. It started around 20 weeks with DS and was awful; I'm already past that point with this one and hope I'll continue to feel mentally well.

DorisIsWaiting Mon 04-Feb-13 19:14:48

I had HG in all 3 pregnancies and was medicated for all three (and hospitalised for parts of 2). I can remember thinking at one point really this can't get much worse or I will have to consider a termination, (and this was a much wanted child). I do understand where you are coming from.

I went through it again after that (took it much easier had given up work and dh expected absolutely nothing from me in the way of house work for 6mths+) but I figured for 9 months of difficulty I would have 18+ years of another child.
It was worth it.

However I also coceived dc3 knowing about a genetic problem in the family we conceived on the understanding that we would abort should the need arise (1 in 4 chance) due to the risk to our other dc.... Fortunately we did not have too but I would never ever wish to return to that place again.

IslaValargeone Mon 04-Feb-13 19:16:50

Abort and try again?
it's a baby not a fucking driving test!

Writehand Mon 04-Feb-13 19:19:43

YANBU, and I think some posters have been very unkind. HG can be unspeakable.

However I wonder if you'll find you can bear to do it when it comes to it. As someone else wrote, if you abort at 12 weeks you may end up wondering for the rest of your life whether the sickness would have stopped a couple of weeks later.

But this is a real situation in which a woman's right to choose is pivotal. You can choose. Only you and your bloke know if you can cope, and what you think is right. TBH, I think it's a bad idea to ask us. You're just getting flack from people who think you're heartless, and really it's so intensely personal, so entirely bound up with your personal morality, that only the family can and should decide.

flumposie Mon 04-Feb-13 19:21:59

Be thankful for the child you have instead of contemplating this , am astounded when so many women including myself have to undergo difficult treatment to conceive in the first place

ElectricMonk Mon 04-Feb-13 19:24:17

I don't think you are necessarily being unreasonable. It depends on whether your DH supports your choice, and whether you are prepared to do your best to carry the foetus to term, making use of whatever medical help, family support and willpower you can draw on even if HG does set in. If it's a yes on both counts, then that's all anybody can reasonably ask of you - only you can judge how much you are able to cope with, mentally, physically, and emotionally.

I wouldn't say that it's any different from starting a pregnancy with the intention of terminating if severe and treatment-resistant antenatal depression significantly impairs your quality of life. It's also on the same scale as starting a pregnancy with the intention of terminating if life-altering congenital defects are discovered during a scan, IF the impact of those defects on yourself and your family is one of your reasons for intending to terminate in those circumstances.

My main concern would be how late in pregnancy you would consider abortion to be acceptable, given that the procedure becomes a lot more traumatic for all involved when the foetus gets beyond 12 weeks old.

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 19:42:03

I don't think it's fair to blame OP for being able to get pregnant when others struggle, it's really not that simple. Just because she can and others can't shouldn't be used to make her feel bad.

Yes it's truly sad when others struggle I have dear dear friends who have and whilst they may be miffed or jealous when others have fallen easily they would never wish their plight on others or blame them for their own sadness they experience.

To say she shouldn't be able to make such decisions when others can't fall pregnant is very short sighted.

IrnBruChew Mon 04-Feb-13 19:43:10

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact how horrendous HG is. To plan an abortion if you get it again just doesn't sit right with me. How many attempts would you give it?

Anyway I wish you well whatever you decide.

MamaBear17 Mon 04-Feb-13 19:43:19

I don't think you are taking in to account how difficult making the decision to abort would be. Or the fact that you may feel an awful lot of guilt - that you then have to live with - afterwards. If you genuinely could not go through HG again, then my advice would be to not risk getting pregnant. I am pro-choice, and respect a mothers right to choose, but you are armed with the knowledge that you are more likely to experience HG again and therefore are going into ttc with your eyes wide open. Just be aware that you may not feel as comfortable with the idea of aborting a healthy foetus and trying again when you actually have a healthy foetus growing inside of you.

LarkinSky Mon 04-Feb-13 19:45:16

Yanbu.

An abortion is still an abortion, still the same outcome for the foetus, whatever the reason for it.

However I think the advice given here to seek medical guidance and counselling prior to ttc is sound.

When push comes to shove would you do/give anything (legal) for a second child? You have to decide that before rolling the dice again...

BeaWheesht Mon 04-Feb-13 19:47:05

I had horrendous HG with my first pregnancy - it took 3 years until I built up the courage to get pregnant again. I was terrified but I do honestly believe it is wrong to ttc if you think you'd abort because of HG. Afaik there's a pretty high chance of you suffering again and it usually gets worse with successive pregnancies.

As it turns out I was sick maybe 5 times a day with dd (2nd pregnancy) so it was fine. However, had that not been the case there's no way I'd have aborted.

I really do believe you'd be massively unreasonable.

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 19:48:37

Reading this thread is sickening, OP what a disgusting attitude you gave. I had HG so I understand how it is but to purposely TTC and then just abort a healthy baby like some disposable nuisance. . YABU

Fakebook Mon 04-Feb-13 19:49:45

Even if you did abort due to HG your symptoms won't disappear overnight! It can take days to weeks for the symptoms to go away.

Tbh, I wouldn't concieve at all if you are thinking like this.

fiventhree Mon 04-Feb-13 19:50:21

I had 6 pregnancies including one miscarriage. The first I was sick for 9 months and the others for decreasing amounts from 5 - 3. However I was never sick with the one I miscarried and think I read somewhere that for some women it is a sign of a healthy viable pregnancy to be sick.

So I would not trust that strategy at all, despite understanding the desolation of hyperemesis .

McNewPants2013 Mon 04-Feb-13 19:55:04

I wouldn't even TTC.

I have never had an abortion, but i would imagine those who has had to make to descion has had it would have been a very emotinal decision.

splashymcsplash Mon 04-Feb-13 20:00:49

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 20:02:00

Your post reads as though you view pregnancy as being as disposable as a takeaway wrapper because you became pregnant so quickly in the past (there is nothing to say you will in the future). I hope you don't actually feel that way... I'm sure you don't.

I can understand a woman wanting an 'out' when something makes you feel so very, very ill and I understand that when you are very very ill if a termination will stop it, that for some it's an option or at least a consideration.

I'm struggling with the concept that having a termination is an option when you've gone into the pregnancy knowing that it's a distinct possibility you will suffer from HG again and I think it is beyond the pale to 'keep trying' until you end up with a pregnancy that doesn't make you ill.

I could almost <but not quite> understand you saying you saying you will 'give it a go' and that you will do your upmost to cope with the pregnancy but if you are gravely ill you will consider a termination and not try again. I think it's the trying again and again that sits so very badly IMO.

I am pro-choice - I think a woman should be able to terminate, for any reason, legally. It is not to say I think that termination is something that should be taken lightly or used as a method of 'oops again' 'contraception'. Having the legal right to do something, doesn't make it the morally right decision. (This is more in answer to the question posed by someone else, not the OP, about why if you are pro life it matters why).

poppycockandfudge Mon 04-Feb-13 20:02:21

YABU I've had very severe HG 3 times, medication didn't help. But the way I see it, you either want another child or you don't. In my darkest moments I wondered if I could continue with the pregnancies, especially as it impacts on your family too, but it's a means to an end.

It is however, the hardest thing I've ever been through, but worth it in the end. I just took it one day at a time...

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 20:02:24

I'm guessing the OP could be rather upset given some of the very personal digs people have had at her.

I don't think for a single second it's a wind up, why would it be?

thebody Mon 04-Feb-13 20:04:23

Op I am so very very sorry for your predicament.

As someone who never even felt sick let alone was sick in any of my pregnancies I cannot imagine how vile this condition must be.

I think the posters who havnt had HG or had an abortion should shut up.

Do what you think is right for you and your family op and I wish you all the best.

Flobbadobs Mon 04-Feb-13 20:05:22

Given some of the personal attacks on here I hope to God she doesn't come back.

I had HG in my last pg, I have also had an abortion.

YABU, I actually find your attitude disgusting. Abortion is meant to be a safety net, not a choice of contraception when the going gets tough.

Last time I did feel like I would have welcomed whatever could come to me, felt like I could die at points. I still think YABU, I didn't know what I was getting into the last time but when it's your second pregnancy and planned then you have no excuse, you know the possibilities.

CwtchesAndCuddles Mon 04-Feb-13 20:07:02

I had HG on my first and when we decided TTC again it was in the full knowledge that I could have it again. I did, it was worse the second time as I already had dd to look after and fund it harder to rest.

If you know you couldn't cope with HG again then please don't TTC.

soverylucky Mon 04-Feb-13 20:07:47

I had HG - yes it is truly awful and I was terrified when I got pregnant for the second time but it was fine. They put me on meds straight away and it was fine. Looking back (and I am sure you will agree) I would go through the hg again to have my lovely dd. It is nine months of hell for the endless joy of your child.
With the correct support and medical help HG is managable.

Should add though that I have had no sickness in this pregnancy at all and I am 15+3.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Mon 04-Feb-13 20:10:20

'I think you are being naive to think that you can just keep re-concieving embryos until you get a pregnancy that doesn't come with any side effects.'

This. Either stick with the pregnancy or don't ttc. You can't just keep aborting. It's not a solution!

You're talking as if aborting is like throwing away a pair of shoes that dont fit. You have no idea how mentally it would affect you.

splashymcsplash Mon 04-Feb-13 20:10:44

Worra because it is written so as to draw strong opinions. I also don't understand why someone would just post and run.

Samu2 Mon 04-Feb-13 20:10:49

I had HG twice.. once for 40 weeks, in and out of hospital and once for 12 weeks.

I was going to abort that pregnancy for other reasons (she was conceived on the coil) and then when I got HG again I made an appointment. Fortunately the HG was short lasting and she is now 4 years old.

I think you are being unreasonable. Your body. Your choice and while I am very pro choice but I would never TTC knowing I might abort.

EnjoyResponsibly Mon 04-Feb-13 20:11:03

I am pro choice, abortion should be legal, safe and as rare as possible.

It's an entirely different proposition between finding oneself pregnant unintentionally and contemplate abortion as an option, compared to actively attempting to conceive and having achieved that to contemplate abortion as an option.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:12:18

Imdon't think there have been many attacks.

I think most people can imagine how bad HG is.

I think most are pro choice

But most would not go ahead and ttc if they really felt this way.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:13:27

that was to FLobbadobbs

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:14:03

X post ENjoy responsibly

I agree

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 04-Feb-13 20:14:18

Before you can decide something like this you need to have had a decent consultation to find out everything that can be done to help you.and what support you have both emotionally and practicly if in patient treatment is needed.

What your personal limits are and at what stage you would make a choice and if that choice was late termination what support you would have to deal with that.

I personally wouldn't terminate for HG unless my consultant said to me "we are now at the stage where I'm concerned you are at risk of death" but that's just me. I know that my consultant was happy to keep me in hospital if needed(and I have support with other children if this is needed) and when things got so bad with two of my pregnancys that I never left hospital and it was utter hell I was induced quite early due to it. But I knew in advance this would happen if I was so ill it was dangerous.

I may not wish to do it myself given the great treatment i knew i could have but I would support and defend your right to.

JenaiMorris Mon 04-Feb-13 20:15:04

Poor OP. There have been some reasoned posts here, and not just ones that I agree with.

But even on MN it's seemingly impossible to discuss termination without [sadface]s and talk of baybeez.

Some people need to grow up and think outside of their own experiences.

Samu2 Mon 04-Feb-13 20:16:39

My first three I suffered with awful morning sickness for the first trimester but nothing like HG.. they were boys.

It was the two girls that I got HG with.

Jcbmgb Mon 04-Feb-13 20:17:09

One of my family members almost died from complications of HG - I do wish that people would read up on the potential life threatening illness that HG can lead to before just declaring that it is 'bad morning sickness'
Even some of the medical professionals involved in her care were very 'laid back' about her declining health (until it was almost too late and she had received treatment for HG throughout the pregnancy)

HG can lead to multi organ failure, malnutrition, kidney failure resulting in transplant, thyroid storm - to name but a few very serious illness'.
The lack of nutrition and severe dehydration can lead to serious long term damage to the organs and the thyroid.

So I think YANBU to consider termination if HG were to occur again.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:19:13

Thebody

I don't agree that anyone who presents their case in areasonable manner should shut up

GirlOutNumbered Mon 04-Feb-13 20:20:20

I don't think anyone is doubting the severity of Hg. They are just saying, so don't get pregnant again if you can't face it again.

GogoGobo Mon 04-Feb-13 20:20:45

YABU and I find your post disgusting.

FlouncingMintyy Mon 04-Feb-13 20:22:19

I don't think there have been many personal attacks on this thread? Maybe a handful but its not surprising given the subject matter, really.

Yfronts Mon 04-Feb-13 20:23:14

I think you need to research reasons why you got sick and make life changes to prevent it's reoccurance.

I had it awfully and recon it was diet/nutrition related as my last pregnancy was a dream. I ate lots of veggies (salad a day with lots of seeds and nuts), water and fish (few times a week) for 6 months before getting pregnant. Also stayed away from sugars, fried foods, white refined foods like white bread and white pasta. I then took B6, B12 and Magnesium.

Also acupuncture was a life saver.

Figgygal Mon 04-Feb-13 20:23:22

If its that bad u need to accept that you are a one child family sorry. Gambling with the need for an abortion is a disgusting thought.

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 20:24:54

Nobody is underplaying the seriousness of HG here...not sure where you are coming from, Jcb

expatinscotland Mon 04-Feb-13 20:25:32

Every now and again, I read something on MN that blows my mind.

This is one of those.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:26:31

AF

I agree, if anything, the reverse. I ink most of us can imagine how terrible it is.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:26:48

Think, not ink

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 20:27:13

y fronts I don't think it's always so easy, I'm not trying to be argumentative as I think your post has some great pointers. I'm glad life changes worked for you but at one point in my HG I couldn't even drink water, even when hospitalised I had to have my medicine through IV as it wouldn't stay down.

It wasn't what I was eating as I couldn't physically eat anything for some time.

I am however glad it worked for you and in my next pg if I am lucky I think I will heed your advice and try to make some changes in the run up! Worth a shot!

apostropheuse Mon 04-Feb-13 20:27:45

OP YABU, for the same reasons as many have already posted.

I don't wish anything bad on you though - you are obviously very confused and desparate. All I have to say is please don't conceive until you are sure that you will not abort a healthy baby to help relieve what is after all a temporary condition, no matter how horrible it is.

The worst part of your post, for me, was the idea of aborting and then trying again until you get a pregnancy you can cope with. That's just not right.

I also don't think it's right that you said that only certain people could answer your post - people do have a right to an opinion, whatever that may be. However, people should not make personal attacks on you. The rght to an opinion works both ways.

NoraSpect Mon 04-Feb-13 20:28:35

Yabvvvu!

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Mon 04-Feb-13 20:29:58

I think op would have been very aware of the kinds of responses she would get to this thread. Its an emotive subject, people get upset.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:30:03

Also, the OP specifically asks about which side of our personal lines this falls, so it's not helpful for some to try and shut down the argument.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 20:30:37

I'm surprised to learn that if you have it in one pregnancy, you're likely to have it in others.

My friend's DD had HG so severely that she carried her baby to full term and it was stillborn sad

But she was told it's more likely in a first pregnancy, if you're obese, under 24 (she was 20) and a few other things that I can't remember.

Unless she was misinformed? But she's under the impression that if she TTC again it won't necessarily mean she gets HG?

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 04-Feb-13 20:31:02

Its all fine and well saying that girloutnumbered but she won't know if she can deal with it again until she actually has it, she won't know how bad it will or won't get or how ill she is going to be, some people with HG may not even require anything other than anti sickness tablets but some may end up near death and several In between that may have a few times of drips or constant.

Perhaps she's not posted again because of the vile comments the personal attacks and being called a troll or because some posters have been twats.

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 20:31:21

apostropheuse I think your post was very well worded.

There is a panorama on right now about the topic of abortion. I shall be watching to see if I can gather some information as I would not choose to have one but am interested to see other views

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 20:32:12

I had high HG and high BP which led to eclampsia. And for that reason I don't take ttc lightly, I think the reason why the OP has got flamed here is the flippant attitude she has displayed around the subject of abortion, her closing statement was particularly inflammatory IMO assuming that it would be just the pro life camp disgusted by this "don't bother posting".

Well its not just them so if she is too scared to face the comments on here as a result of the "grey opinions" thats sad, hopefully she will have the views she was looking for.

thebody Mon 04-Feb-13 20:34:26

Jamie, I just object to people making really personal attacks on the poster. It's not right and its not fair.

ChestyNut Mon 04-Feb-13 20:36:05

YABSVU

If you can't deal with the possibility of HG then don't try to conceive.

Actually find it really upsetting that you'd consider it

I'm out sad

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:38:02

Fine, but i haven't had an abortion, or HG, and am allowed to have a POV as are most of the people on here, who are not attacking the OP.

I do sympathise. The fear of it happening again must be awful. It is impossible to be categorical about this. My concern would be less about the foetus than the effect on her own physical and mental health if she went ahead with a pg that she half expected to have to abort

sasamaxx Mon 04-Feb-13 20:38:20

YABU
I really hope this is some kind of joke

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:38:35

^ my post above was in response to thebody

DifferentNow Mon 04-Feb-13 20:40:15

I had a termination when I was 17. It was absolutely the right decision at the time, however I had to have counselling afterwards and am still grieving nearly 20 years later.

I'm now pregnant with my fifth child. This baby, like our other 4, was planned and much wanted. I've had severe HG in each of the pregnancies and was advised by health professionals during the first and in each subsequent pregnancy that I should expect to have it every time.

The HG this time had been much worse than with the others. We don't intend to have any more children, however I can say with certainty that I would not undertake another pregnancy because I know I could not cope with HG like this again. I'm in a better place now, but when I was at my worst I begged my DH to agree to a termination. I can't quite believe it now looking back but HG is a terrible illness and I have never felt so physically and mentally unwell in my life. Thankfully DH had enough strength to support us both through it and I'm so glad now. Feeling like I could not go on was never something I could have anticipated and it took a ton of support and courage to overcome it.

I have experienced both outcomes OP and neither is pretty. In your shoes I would be counting my blessings and definately not TTC. I agree with other posters in that the way you describe these senarios seems quite detached from reality.

cleoowen Mon 04-Feb-13 20:42:11

Cannot believe you would abort babies routinely if they made you sick! What a harrendous attitude to have. Very upset,by your post.I cannot imagine someone aborting multiple babies on the chance one won't make them sick. Surely 9 months of sickness is worth it for having another child. I was sick during my pregnancy and,was admited to hospital because of,it. I would never consider aborting my baby over it. I was worried about him more than me.

Think you just put up with it if you want a,baby and,if you can't don't have one. Sorry but with that attitude I worry about you having a baby at all.

By the way I am not anti abortion. I believe in choice in the right circumstances.

AllYoursBabooshka Mon 04-Feb-13 20:42:36

Worra, I was only ever told that it was more common in your first pregnancy. I was 19 when I had it and no one mentioned anything about being under 24.

Sounds like she has had some off information as it is very possible that she will get it again.

Jcbmgb Mon 04-Feb-13 20:43:21

There are a numer of posts where HG is being equated with 'nausea' or 'sickness' in pregnancy.

thebody Mon 04-Feb-13 20:44:20

No agree with that post Jamie.. Would be a very sad situation.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:44:27

A few, not most.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:45:02

Xpost.. Yes thebody.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 20:46:47

AllYoursBabooshka perhaps I'll have a chat to my friend then...or at least suggests she does some Googling.

Mind you, she may well have got it wrong because she was repeating to me what her DD had said the Doctor told her IYSWIM?

ethelb Mon 04-Feb-13 20:48:00

I am going to go against the tide and say yanbu.

You are admitting to not being naive about the possibility of abortion. I dont think it is that different to using ivf where you know some embryos will be destroyed imo.

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 20:49:10

Ethel, brace yourself.... brew

BambieO Mon 04-Feb-13 20:49:50

In fact wine not brew

FanFuckingTastic Mon 04-Feb-13 20:50:13

I believe people are being harsh, but I guess that is their emotive response that they are allowed to have.

OP I can understand it must be very difficult to want another child, but have the risk of HG. Can you discuss this with experts first before you do TTC to gain a better understanding of what can be done to support you and perhaps prevent it getting too serious (not treating until seriously dehydrated always struck me as a bit stupid).

I don't thing I would judge someone for terminating a pregnancy where they are likely to suffer immensely as a result of continuing, and from what I learned about HG during a recent discussion is that it can be hell on earth and that they treat the worst of it, but don't do a lot of preventative, or at least alleviating treatments.

I terminated due to extreme emotional trauma and I don't think that was wrong. I'd terminate now to prevent further physical suffering to myself too. When you have children already, it's not always feasible to put yourself into a situation where you would not be available to them because of severe illness.

I can also understand wanting to try for another, but I think OP you need to speak to a consultant about it, rather than Mumsnet. x

GetOrf Mon 04-Feb-13 20:51:00

I agree with jenai and greensleeves on this.

I have never had HG thank god, so don't know how awful it is, but can empathise.

Tbh though I think that the OP sounds scared of having ut again and is trying to rationalise ttc again. I would really think that some counselling about her experiences would help in order that she is able to come to the right decision.

MrsHuxtable Mon 04-Feb-13 20:51:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsHuxtable Mon 04-Feb-13 20:52:34

Oh, and yes, chances are extremly high that you will HG again. I really don't know where you got your rubbish info from.

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 20:54:02

Worra did you see my link near the beginning of this thread ? It appears to go against some of the clinical features of your friend's presentation.

Bearfrills Mon 04-Feb-13 20:54:32

Woah! Harsh, much?

IMO abortion discussions boil down to one fact and that fact is that it is none of your business.

If the OP chooses to end a pregnancy then she is fortunate enough to live in a country where she has that choice.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 20:55:19

Getorf

I think you are right. The OP sounds cold because she trying to make arational argument.

Toddle Mon 04-Feb-13 20:57:39

(Haven't read the whole thead)

I have been on mumsnet 3/4 years maybe and I can count on one hand the number of times I post on AIBU but I couldn't not post.

I do sympathise with you I honestly do. It's horrific and I suffered with it myself to the level you did. I was prescribed quite strong medication which did help although did not stop it.

However I find your thoughts disgusting. That sounds really strong and I remember the feeling like it was yesterday, BUT it is temporary. Yes the whole 9 months of my pregnancy did not seem like temporary for me but it was. It has had no lasting damage ok I nearly had a melt down when I was sick the other week. It is hard so hard. I do not think abortions were made legal for these type of reasons.

It seems so wrong to get pregnant willingly then abort because you are sick. To then get pregnant again and again etc.

When would you draw the line at saying yes this is hg and not normal morning sickness lets abort?

I do sympathise I do it's horrid. I also want another child and I am petrified of being the same again with a child to look after this time too. However if I want another child I know this is just a risk I am going to have to take. It's not a easy decision to make.

I really so hope you change the way you are thinking about this

AllDirections Mon 04-Feb-13 20:57:40

Worra I was told it got worse with each pregnancy and it did. I was at the minimum end of my weight range at the beginning of each pregnancy and I was over 24.

MrsHuxtable Mon 04-Feb-13 20:58:02

The OP makes it other people's business by asking about it on here. So posters are entitled to give their opinions.

By all means, she can go and have 10 terminations of healthy children, it's her right, sadly, but don't go and talk about it on a parenting forum.

If I was so morally corrupt, I'd keep it to myself!

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 20:58:45

Its none of anyone's business but she came on a public forum and asked. And on AIBU of all places

Personally not something I'd do without the expectation of getting some hard hitting opinions and upsetting alot of people who don't view it her way.

nannyof3 Mon 04-Feb-13 21:00:10

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Bearfrills Mon 04-Feb-13 21:00:14

Yes, opinions not personal attacks such as calling her disgusting and horrible.

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 21:01:22

The attitude is disgusting.

MrsHuxtable Mon 04-Feb-13 21:02:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ethelb Mon 04-Feb-13 21:03:04

Braced

perceptionreality Mon 04-Feb-13 21:03:12

My friend had HG in 4 pregnancies - two aborted. And I think the HG factored in her reasoning to have the abortions sad

JenaiMorris Mon 04-Feb-13 21:04:06

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Bearfrills Mon 04-Feb-13 21:04:19

If you know you react in such a way to abortion then why click on the thread? It's clear from the title what it is about, just click 'hide' instead.

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 21:04:21

oh fgs, I hope HQ pull this thread now

fucking emotive bullshitters coming out of the woodwork

Saski Mon 04-Feb-13 21:04:30

Many people are pro-choice because they don't feel a fetus is a baby. I'd consider myself squarely in this camp. Ergo, I'm not scandalized by the OP's rationale.

Greensleeves Mon 04-Feb-13 21:04:40

MrsHuxtable, just stop it. You're not helping.

I think that people need to remember OP hasn't DONE anything yet, nor has she made her mind up. She is exploring her options. She came here to discuss this very sensitive issue with other women, to get perspectives and advice. That is what we are supposed to be here for!

Fairylea Mon 04-Feb-13 21:04:43

Yabu.

Where would people draw the line if everyone thought like this? - spd, antenatal depression (which I suffered extremely severely to the point of considering abortion even though actually I am quite anti abortion except in extremely extreme circumstances), pre eclampsia ....? Would people just abort and keep trying to have the "perfect" pregnancy?

It seems very immoral to me.

The best anyone can do is to focus on the fact it is horrible when complications happen but there are treatments available, if you need time off then you need time off and it is a temporary state. You won't be pregnant forever however horrible it is.

Xalla Mon 04-Feb-13 21:05:24

I had a terrible pregnancy first time around and had to have an early C-section because I couldn't sustain the pregnancy any longer. I spent a good portion of the pregnancy in hospital. DS4 is a healthy litte boy now.

Second time around we opted to terminate halfway through the second trimester when it was confirmed the baby (also a boy) had a chromosomal defect that was 'not compatible with life'.

That was far, far worse....

I'm pro-choice all the way but seriously....have you considered adoption?

DifferentNow Mon 04-Feb-13 21:05:48

AIBU was perhaps not the right place for the OP to post this but I do wonder how many of the people throwing around phrases such as 'killing babies' and 'disgusting' have had firsthand experience of HG?

CheerfulYank Mon 04-Feb-13 21:05:56

Practically no one believes that all abortions are the same, otherwise there wouldn't be such an outcry over all the female fetuses aborted in India.

KobayashiMaru Mon 04-Feb-13 21:06:52

People have abortions for a hundred different reasons. Either you are against it, or you are for the right to individual choice. I don't understand judging on some kind of sliding scale as to which are good enough reasons and which are not.

OP, your body, your choice. Do what you want.

perceptionreality Mon 04-Feb-13 21:07:39

It would have been better to not post this in AIBU imo.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 21:08:56

Oh I missed it AF, will have a look back now...thanks.

Bearfrills Mon 04-Feb-13 21:09:16

But nor should you be forced to carry a pregnancy to term if you are at the point where it is destroying you whether that destruction is physical, mental, emotional, etc. Pregnancy, while only nine months, can leave lasting scars of both the visible and invisible sort. It's not for anyone else to say why a woman chooses abortion and it's not for anyone else to say whether that choice was right or wrong.

As pointed out, the OP hasn't aborted a pregnancy, she's running through some thoughts and wrote those thoughts down. If you cannot give a balanced, unbiased, calm and emotive response and you know that abortion threads rile you, don't click on the post.

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 21:09:20

Ok, so anyone not with the opinion of the OP and her supporters dont get a say?

Anyone who doesn't find abortion emotive must be made of glass abd im saying that as someone in the pro choice camp, im not sorry that I find the thought of ttc'ing and aborting over again until you get a pregnancy that doesn't give you HG utterly repulsive and thats from someone who had HG and lost 3 stone in 12 weeks.

I hope this thread is pulled too.

Different I have had first hand experience of HG and I used the word disgusting.

Yes, I do think it's "disgusting" to plan pregnancies when you know there is a high chance you are going to abort them.

MysteriousHamster Mon 04-Feb-13 21:10:02

As I haven't had HG I don't want to comment on whether aborting due to it would be wrong or not.

But as it often reoccurs I would be worried that you might have to abort more than once, without getting to a non-sick pregnancy.

Or the one time you don't get the symptoms, it's because the pregnancy hasn't continued and miscarry, or have a missed miscarriage and end up having the same procedure as you would if you had an abortion. It's not pleasant sad

I could understand if you decide to try again, prepare as best you can, and if you end up aborting because you can't cope, just stop there.

But obviously it's your life, your womb and only you can know the pain you've already been through.

Pobblewhohasnotoes Mon 04-Feb-13 21:10:16

How many abortions will you have OP? 3? 5? 10? What if you have HG every time?

It's traumatic and an emotional roller coaster. Plus its surgery, there are risks and potential physical effects. Yet you appear to trivialise it. Oh I'll just try again...

I'm not playing down HG by any means. What you need to do is seek medical advice.

Montybojangles Mon 04-Feb-13 21:12:02

Haven't read all the posts, and I'm sure it's already been said, but if you have had HG once, your likely to get it the next time round (and worse with successive pregnancies), so if you can't stand it then yes YABU to even contemplate this when the likelihood is you will be suffering and therefore Abort. Just adopt!

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 04-Feb-13 21:12:08

AHEM

Piecesofmyheart Mon 04-Feb-13 21:12:47

YABU.

And I've had HG in 1 pregnancy.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 21:15:03

Ahh I've seen the link now and yes, it appears to be the opposite of some of what she's been told...especially the low body mass, although it does mention under 30's.

I'll mail her the link to look over.

MrsHuxtable Mon 04-Feb-13 21:15:18

Don't tell me to stop it.
I know what HG is like. Had it for 9 months and am now planning for a second HG pregnancy as I know that's what I will most likely end up with.

I also said, I understand wanting to terminate when suffering from HG and having to do it if you really can't cope anymore.

But then you don't go trying again til you have better luck. You just don't. It gives women who terminate for "decent" reasons a bad name.

I will hide this thread now because honestly, this is one of me most horrendous things I've read on here in ages.

And no, the OP had not done anything yet but even to think like this is wrong. Maybe my standards for a decent human being are to high.

What the OP should do, if she really really wants a second child is prepare herself, like I do. Get her affairs in order, get herself to optimum health, plan childcare for her DC1 for when she's too sick to do it herself, speak to her doctor and get a plan of action ready. Medication she responds to, find an accupuncurist who deals with HG women but mostly get her DH on board because his support will be vital, should she get sick again.

thebody Mon 04-Feb-13 21:15:39

For goodness sake... Does a woman have to be screaming and crying her pain to get a sympathetic response?

The op is considering her very unique position and exploring her own feelings.

Disgraceful comments by some in here.

CaptainVonTrapp Mon 04-Feb-13 21:17:24

Many people delay subsequent pregnancies for years because an experience (during pregnancy or labour) leaves them unable to comtemplate a repeat.
Perhaps you're just not ready yet.

I know people who have had HG more than once. And another who had it once only out of 3 times.

Tbh the idea of trying to conceive whilst simultaneously planning an abortion really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Sorry that probably doesn't help a horrible situation.

DifferentNow Mon 04-Feb-13 21:21:29

I understand the fear the OP feels about having HG again and also, like most of us, the desire to have a child. Perhaps she just wants to give herself permission in advance to end the pregnancy if it all becomes too much. The posters who've had HG and still think the OP is 'disgusting' because it's 'only 9 months' seem to have forgotten how it feels to wonder how you're going to make it through the next hour, never mind 9 months. When you're at your worst, 9 months might as well be 9 years.

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 21:27:26

different I wouldn't ttc again if it had scarred me so badly, and believe me it scarred me. But then again right now I wouldn't consider ttc again anyway and probably never will. Thats the bit that I got annoyed about, maybe I should have more sympathy for OP and in a way I do because it's making her think like this.

But it was just the way the OP was worded, like she can get pregnant anytime time wants and just abort if needs be. I just don't understand why you would knowingly and deliberately do that.

I don't think it's disgusting because it's only 9 months, I remember it well it was utter hell. I had loads of problems and posted on here numerous times saying I just wanted it to end.

I wouldn't ever consider TTC with plans to abort if I don't like the outcome though. With me I was extremely lucky, the HG was kept at bay because they started treating me as soon as it became apparent that it was not normal MS, there are things they can do to prevent the amount of damage so I would think it normal to look into this first before writing any pregnancy off with an abortion if it doesn't go well.

If you really couldn't handle the thought of another pregnancy being the same would you really plan one?

AF Had a look at the link, it was a good read. Lots I didn't know. Very strange as I had a boy though and everything keeps coming up that it's normally girls you have it with.

I think, given the statistics of HG recurring that I think AF quoted on page 1, which I think said it is only 20% more likely than for any other pregnancy ??

If that's right I think it would be reasonable to hope for another child, a sibling for your DC, and ttc. In other words to travel hopefully on life's journey.

If you did have HG and found it unbearable then you just go into this knowing that there is an option to stop that that you personally would consider.

Probably if it was me I'd consider adopting my second child but I can accept that would be my likely decision in your situation. I also accept you might make a different choice and go ahead with TTC.

Good luck !

NomNomDePlumPudding Mon 04-Feb-13 21:29:37

i haven't had hg, so i am not even going to try to imagine whether or not i could cope with it, nor can i say whether or not termination would be a reasonable response to it, but i don't think it's likely that you would be able to undertake a ttc/pregnancy/hg/abortion cycle repeatedly without doing yourself some emotional (and possibly physical) damage. i'm with the posters who are advising that you take medical advice and consider counseling in advance of ttc, and i woudln't in your position be thinking ahead of one pregnancy.

good luck, i hope you can come to a conclusion you can work with.

Zavi Mon 04-Feb-13 21:30:32

How long do you think you would be able to tolerate HG for before you would be driven to abortion?

Do you think the age of the foetus would influence your decision?

i.e. would you find it any more difficult to abort a 6 month old foetus than a 2 month old foetus?

or could you happily abort at any stage in the pregnancy?

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 21:30:38

SchroSawMargeryDaw that's another thing. My friend's DD's baby was a boy!

I think it's probably a subject that needs far more research than it's had so far.

Perhaps Kate Middleton's pregnancy might mean it gets more funding and research, I hope so.

DifferentNow Mon 04-Feb-13 21:31:19

I also think that in reality, should this situation actually come about and the OP conceives and finds herself so ill with HG that she feels she must terminate the pregnancy that it is highly unlikely that she will dive back in and ttc again. The situation is hypothetical at the moment. Once a real pregnancy and real feelings exist, the OP might well feel differently.

Worra Unfortunately I think that the media constantly saying "severe morning sickness" might make it less likely to happen. sad

It would be brilliant if more research was done because of her though.

xamillion Mon 04-Feb-13 21:35:09

YANBU. You're either pro-choice or you're not, there should be no caveat of "Only if you've got good enough reasons".

I would however talk to your doctors and get some counselling before trying again to discuss options and possibilities. I'm sure you're aware conceiving and pregnancy are not that black and white, so you need to discuss all eventualities to protect yours and your husbands physical and emotional well being.

CheerfulYank Mon 04-Feb-13 21:37:27

I think there are very few people who are pro choice across the board, million.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 21:40:26

DifferentNow (sorry to hear you have had horrendous HG as well!!) I don't think people had as much of an issue with the OP giving herself an out if it becomes completely unbearable, so much as her saying she'd 'just keep on trying' and 'aborting if she gets horribly sick' - not, if I absolutely can't cope/am on deaths door. The way she phrased her OP has not helped.

WhichIsBest Mon 04-Feb-13 21:40:29

I think you should put ttc out of your mind for a year, two years, and see how you feel about coping with a pregnancy again, however it turns out, then.

We waited five years to ttc for number two. For a while I thought I wouldn't be able to go through it again at all. But DD is old enough now to understand and cope better if I have to go into hospital, and I can rest while she is at school. It does make things practically easier.
(Different health problems.)

AllYoursBabooshka Mon 04-Feb-13 21:42:11

I also had a boy.

It will be interesting for me to see what I am having this time, I've had an almost completely normal pregnancy so far after being convinced I would be very ill.

So there is hope that all can go well second, third etc time round.

AnyFucker Mon 04-Feb-13 21:43:44

schro I had a boy and a girl and was the same in both pg's

DifferentNow Mon 04-Feb-13 21:44:02

say I wouldn't ttc again either, but that's easy for me to say because my family is now complete and the OP's is not. As other posters have said, she is exploring her options in a difficult senario. I agree that the OP does sound flippant when referring to abortion but I think her question is driven by a desire to complete her family which we can all relate to and a deep-rooted fear of the horror of HG.

splashymcsplash Mon 04-Feb-13 21:44:48

OP if you do come to this thread - your opening statement: "my understanding of HG is that it is unlikely to strike twice" is completely false.

Here is a link to peer reviewed research that reported an 81% recurrence rate of HG in a subsequent pregnancy: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21429077

xamillion Mon 04-Feb-13 21:45:21

But all these people screaming "Well I'm pro choice" then detailing why the OP is a deapicable human being for making that choice are emphatically NOT pro choice.

So it doesn't really change with gender if you are destined to have it then?

It would definitely be good if far more research was done to look into it. It's a shame that it doesn't seem to be taken so seriously and care differs depending on hospital. sad

LiegeAndLief Mon 04-Feb-13 21:47:36

Hmm. I had severe and fairly early onset pre-eclampsia in my first pg, resulting in a lot of time in hospital and the premature birth of my ds. I conceived again knowing that I was at a much higher chance of getting PET in a second pg than someone who had not had it in the first, and that if I got really ill the baby would have to be delivered. Possibly very premature or, if I was very unlucky, before 24 weeks.

Granted the chances of this were not high - I have no idea how they compare to the chances of getting HG again. I have never had HG or an abortion and I have no idea how I would have reacted if my second pg had not resulted in a (thankfully) healthy baby. However, I think it's possible that I might have "tried again" and hoped for a better outcome.

So whilst my first reaction to the OP was discomfort, I'm not sure that my situation was sufficiently removed from hers to judge. I think a woman has the right to conceive whilst hoping against hope that she does not suffer with a debilitating condition, and then abort if the condition becomes so bad that she just can't cope, mentally or physically, any more. Whether that woman then goes on to try again (or again and again) is probably something that is very hard to decide before you have been through it once, as it must be very hard to imagine how you would feel.

FlorriesDragons Mon 04-Feb-13 21:50:01

It must be awful to be so sick for 40 weeks and I can't even pretend to understand but to say you would abort for it is a horrible thing to say. I think you are better off sticking with one child tbh.

WorraLiberty Mon 04-Feb-13 21:50:02

I hope the OP's ok.

I PM'd her a couple of hours ago but had no reply sad

cleoowen Mon 04-Feb-13 21:50:08

I am not against abortion and would not necessarily think the OP er would be wrong to abort the first pregnancy if she felt she could not cope if it had not been planned she would do that before falling pregnant.

It is,the wording of the,post I find disgusting and,the attitude not the person herself. She is thinking of aborting multiple babies one after another until she possibly gets,one where she isn't sick. That is what I object to. To me that is very different to someone aborting one baby for whatever reason which they did not know about beforehand. It is like waiting for a designer baby.

Pyrrah Mon 04-Feb-13 21:50:36

One of the reasons that DH and I are 99% certain we are stopping at 1 child was the terrible HG I had with DD.

I cannot imagine going through the months of misery with DD wanting my usual attention. I've had major spinal surgery and have been in enough pain that I would have happily signed a form to consent for someone to amputate my legs when it was at it's worst. Yet it doesn't begin to compare with the level of wretchedness that HG can bring you too.

I think if we did decide to have another then I would make plans in advance - good childcare, a nice cleaning lady and above all a really sympathetic and proactive GP/OB.

One of the things I am forever grateful for is that my GP took one look at me when I went to see him 3 days after it kicked in and had me straight down to the hospital for IV fluids and then we tried various drugs till we found one that stopped me vomiting 20+ times a day. I believe that I would have had it even worse had I not sought help so fast.

Shop around for the right partners in your medical care (you do have the option to change GP or consultant) and get some advice from them.

Having had HG I can see why you might feel the way you do, but I don't think you are considering the right solution to the problem.

Pyrrah Mon 04-Feb-13 21:53:38

On the gender thing... I'm not sure if there is any correlation. I know 3 others who have had bad HG in the last few years and including DD there were 3 girls and 1 boy.

frustratedworkingmum Mon 04-Feb-13 21:55:04

YABU its a BABY not a pair of fucking shoes

CrapBag Mon 04-Feb-13 21:55:28

Only read the first page but YABVVVVVVVVVVU.

I cannot believe you would get pregnant, get sick, abort, get pregnant, get sick abort and keep going.

Awful attitude. Either stick with the one you have or risk and and stick with your decision to have another, sickness or not.

Bully for you to get pregnant easily. But guess what, it may not always happen that way.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 21:58:52

Million - that is crap. I am pro-choice - abortion should be safe, legal and available to all women whatever their reason; but preferably RARE - I support their right to have an abortion.

It does not mean that I then have to agree that having an abortion because a baby is a boy if they wanted a girl, or a girl if they wanted a boy is OK nor for a variety of other reasons.

Abortion being legal is one thing, being morally right is another.

Having an abortion if you are critically ill with HG is one thing, TTC and knowing you will have an abortion if it's making you feel a bit awful with HG and then to keep on trying again and again is another.

saycheeeeeese Mon 04-Feb-13 22:02:56

what myhead said.

DifferentNow Mon 04-Feb-13 22:03:08

Agree with Pyrrah and others that abortion should not be your pre-emptive measure and that you ought to be putting a support system in place for yourself OP. What are your DH's thoughts on the matter?

KobayashiMaru Mon 04-Feb-13 22:05:16

so you're pro-choice as long as the choices made fit into your moral framework?

If your hands are off her uterus they should also be off her morals.

Saski Mon 04-Feb-13 22:05:18

cleoowen, it's quite different from a designer baby. I'm not sure how you can compare the two.
Either one views a fetus as a baby, or one doesn't. The gray areas inbetween seem inconsistent, particularly in early days i.e. first half or two thirds of the first trimester.

Morloth Mon 04-Feb-13 22:07:39

I had HG with DS2 and did actually consider aborting at a couple of points it was so awful.

It is one of the reasons we are not having more children.

I think you are underestimating the effect of a termination of a healthy wanted foetus and also overestimating your fertility.

How many goes would you have?

Am 100% pro choice and totally believe you should be able to do this if this is your wish. That doesn't mean I think it is a very good idea.

KindleMum Mon 04-Feb-13 22:10:19

I've had 2 pregnancies and both were HG from 6 weeks through to birth. I spent about 12 weeks in hospital in total for both and all the medication achieved was that with it I could keep hydrated enough most of the time. I was still very sick, hence the admissions. I had a lovely obstetrician who told me after the first pregnancy, that it would probably be the same for all my pregnancies. He was fully supportive of my second pregnancy and having good medical care helped me cope. I do wonder if you got good care, OP.

It took me 2 years to talk DH into a second baby as he was horrified by the HG and by halfway through the pregnancy we had both agreed that there was no way we'd have a third. It was a decision based on the welfare of all of us. It would hit my health too hard and would be unfair on the kids. DS had to deal with my vomiting 23 hours a days, having no energy to do anything with him. I can't do that again with 2 kids.

I went into the second pregnancy knowing the likelihood of HG and actually, I found it easier than the first. The HG was the same but I think it seemed worse first time because it was so unexpected and I'd never even heard of it before. And also I kept hoping it would stop at 14 weeks, 20 etc. 2nd time around I knew it would go on to delivery. Strangely, the lack of false hope helped.

If it was me, I couldn't ttc knowing that I planned to abort for HG. It would be too hard ( and to me, unethical) to abort a wanted and healthy child and I don't think I'd know when to decide that I'd had enough. If you really want a second child, I think you have to accept the risk of HG and plan how to access sympathetic medical care and how to get help at home to make it a bit easier. I wish you well.

I'm pro-choice. That doesn't mean I think that an abortion is a super fun experience that I'm keen for everybody to try. Nor does it mean pro-your- choice-as-long-as-it's-acceptable-to-my-personal-moral-framework.
Women choose to terminate for many, many reasons. The only person's view they should be considering is their own because it is their choice and they live with it.
So I would say to the OP YANBU to consider that HG may lead you to terminate. That'syour choice at that point, however YABU if you reckon you could embark on round after round of ttc and then abortion without it fundamentally and seriously affecting both your physical and I suspect your mental health.
I agree also that the OP is mistaken in thinking that HG will not recur. I think she would find herself very sick again and if she is sure that she would terminate in that case it would be better not to ttc. Just less heartache tbh.

wiltingfast Mon 04-Feb-13 22:29:53

I just think you need to carefully consider what you are doing. How will you feel aborting healthy babies? How will you feel afterwards when the puking has stopped? How will your husband feel? You have to live with that for years. Pregnancy is v temporary. You know the risks now before ttc again. To callously utilise abortion to essentially stop the puking seems an incredibly casual use of a very hard won and tenuous liberty.

crappypatty Mon 04-Feb-13 22:30:26

I had HG in all three pregnancies. I wouldn't ttc with the thought that I may have an abortion, however with my third I did think very briefly about it as I couldn't take it anymore.

I was sterilised the month after giving birth.

landofsoapandglory Mon 04-Feb-13 22:40:05

YABU. I had such severe SPD in my second pregnancy that I couldn't walk at all, I was in a wheelchair and on really strong painkillers. I was admitted to hospital, they wanted to give me injections of morphine but I refused because J didn't want my baby born an addict and having to go through a withdrawal when he was born. I still suffer now over 16 years later.

After he was born I was advised not go through with another pregnancy, but I knew if I did get pregnant I couldn't abort a healthy baby, so DH had a vasectomy because we couldn't take the risk.

IMO if you TTC you want the baby, if you abort it because you get HG you will always wonder what if you had waited a few more days.

Lilithmoon Mon 04-Feb-13 22:49:11

OP YANBU to consider your options and I utterly sympathize, having had HG during my pregnancy. The HG is one of the reasons I will never TTC again. When I was pregnant I hit rock bottom and was not sure if I could continue. It was an absolute nightmare.

You know you need to think this through very carefully and make the best decision for you and your family. I hope you are ok.

AllDirections Mon 04-Feb-13 22:55:37

I thought about aborting during each of my 3 pregnancies, I didn't want to, I just wanted the suffering to stop. I didn't abort because by the time it became absolutely unbearable I felt that I'd already gone through too much for the pregnancy not to result in a baby. And I wanted my babies so badly. I knew that I'd carry on trying until I got my babies and I didn't want to have to go through those early months again with a replacement pregnancy. But I did think about it sad

SigmundFraude Mon 04-Feb-13 22:57:40

I had (what I considered to be) very bad relentless nausea with both of my pregnancies, and it was hell. I can't begin to imagine how bad HG must be for someone to abort or consider aborting a much wanted pregnancy.

I wish you all the best, and suggest you read the more reasoned responses on here.

Greythorne Mon 04-Feb-13 23:02:29

Op - you are in a very tricky spot and you sound like you need support.

I would say, you are definitely NOT being unreasonable to abort a foetus if you get extreme HG. I do not believe you are a vessel to bring babies to term. You are a human being and you are in charge of your own body. Termination of a pregnancy can be carried out for a million and one reasons and HG is no better or worse a reason than any other.

However, I would caution against the thinking that you will just carry on getting pregnancy until you have a pregnancy without HG, as I fear this might not happen and you will end up with a string of terminations and no live delivery, which might be very difficult.

I think you also have to consider how you will handle the consequences of terminating pregnancies when you do actually want a baby. I think it is one thing to terminate an unwanted pregnancy and quite another to terminate when you long for a baby.

And you cannot be sure your fertility is as reliable as you think. You may conceive easily again, but secondary infertility is well known.

I think you should seek medical support off MN.

Good luck.

xamillion Mon 04-Feb-13 23:07:25

so you're pro-choice as long as the choices made fit into your moral framework?

If your hands are off her uterus they should also be off her morals.

This. What you think you would do in that situation is one thing, and its perfectly acceptable to say that. To tell someone she's disgusting for having a different moral perspective is not ok (not saying you said that btw).

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 23:11:09

Most people on here are NOT criticising her morals, but are criticising the wisdom of a course of action that could harm her physical and mental health, not to mention her relationship, as well as the foetus.

Carrie37 Mon 04-Feb-13 23:16:00

OP in my first pregnancy I had HG it had taken five years to conceive. We were in America for the year and I was prescribed Ondanestron for the sickness it worked brilliantly. Second pregnancy in UK they wouldn't prescribe it. I had horrendous 9 months. Third pregnancy I went private and was prescribed prednisolone it was fantastic. Fourth pregnancy I made appointment to see obstetrician before I got pregnant and was assured I would get medication which worked for HG. There are options out there you need to research them!!

Greythorne Mon 04-Feb-13 23:16:10

I am a bit shocked at the women saying it is immoral and shocking, TBH.

Love to know what the "right" reasons for a termination are according to this "pro-choicers"?

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 23:17:12

Thanks for all the people worrying about me. I am fine!

This is at the pre drawing board stage. I just wanted to get my ideas clear before I even broached it with DH.

The whole wishing to abort but not doing it because you have already gone through so much was exactly my experience with my first. I am not sure I would feel the same about a second. But you certainly can't tell until you get there.

So I would be taking the risk of having another 8 months of hell if it turned out I couldn't face aborting.

VicarInaTutu Mon 04-Feb-13 23:18:59

i think in your position OP i would probably really really think hard about whether to ttc again.

i had horrendous sickness through both my pg, and i know its really hard to keep in mind why you are doing it when you just feel so incredibly ill all the time. pregnancy did not agree with me at all - both times i just felt and looked like shit for the entire time.
but
i did it once and realised that to get that little bundle at the end i had to endure it.
and i chose to do it again. had i not thought i had the stomach for it i would not have tried again.
DD was a horrible pregnancy, a night mare baby with allergies and milk intolerance, and now, at 15, a pretty wonderful, lovely, intelligent, compassionate and beautiful human being of whom i am immensely proud.

i would seriously not embark on TTC if you think that abortion is the answer to HG.
how many times would you try?
i think its something you enter into with your eyes wide open with regard to the possibility it could happen again or you dont do it.
im pro choice, but this is playing roulette with your body, your baby. its not worth it.

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 23:21:27

In my first pregnancy I didn't feel like I had a baby inside until the 50% survival point. Up until then I was growing a collection of cells that had the potential to become a baby.

I still think it comes back to the probabilities. There are people on this thread saying it is immoral to become pregnant unless you know you can make it through the pregnancy. Well in that case every woman is immoral. There are plenty of conditions that require termination and anyone could suffer from them.

If I have a low probability of HG in the future then why is that a worse chance to take than any of the other possible reasons?

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 23:22:46

vic part of me agrees with everything you say. But if you have a baby over the age of 40 and would terminate for downs you are doing exactly the same thing.

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 23:26:06

Thanks to the many on the thread pointing out the problem of wondering if you had waited a few more days would the symptoms have gone. I think this is very true.

On the other hand if I felt I could conceive again almost immediately....well it is a case of choosing which of the many children I could have actually gets a chance.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 04-Feb-13 23:28:33

Jeez this is getting weird.

livepoas Mon 04-Feb-13 23:28:45

OP as i said earlier in the thread i think if you ttc you need to make allowances in case you have HG again.

Make sure you can afford some things to make it easier on you

Private HG treatment maybe,

extra childcare,

time off work in case you need to be in hospital.

There are things that can be done to help you, and you can also help yourself by preparing for it.

I have had a hard enough time deciding what to do with an unplanned pregnancy that it turned out has a high risk of a terrible genetic condition.

That has been so heart wrenching - I dread to think how awful you would feel if you terminated a wanted and planned child because of a temporary condition that doesn't affect the baby. Hope that makes sense.

VicarInaTutu Mon 04-Feb-13 23:38:00

i get what you are saying ICBINEG and ultimately the choice is yours, but i would really make sure you discuss everything fully with your doctor first and also your partner or husband. How do they feel about what you propose?

for me, and i speak personally, i have a disabled child. Had i known i doubt it would have changed the outcome. but thats me. and he is wonderful, talented, and meant to be here.

i was 19 when i had him, so not over 40! it was a hidden disability, that said, had it not been, i doubt i would have done differently, however im saying that with the benefit of hindsight of not knowing.

i really arent judging you OP.

but really do make sure you know how you would feel about both options, how many times could you stand to terminate? would you give up eventually if every pg resulted in extreme sickness? what happens if you get sicker at the end than the beginning? (this happened to me with DD)

really you need to be very honest with yourself about it all.

good luck whatever you decide.

Please consider seeing your doctor, and ask what developments have been made in HG management, medication, and patient choices, since your last pregnancy. There may be things that will work better for you next time.

For you, pregnancy might incur HG. If I was in your situation, I would not consider conceiving until I was ready to go through HG again (which I never have so I appreciate I don't know how hellish it is).

So personally, I think YABU, as I think it would be a similar 'dilemma' for someone hoping for a healthy baby but who had a high chance of passing on a genetic condition, say. Imagine someone suggesting conceiving and then aborting foetuses found to be unhealthy until they conceived a 'perfect' child.... morally very dodgy ground.

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 23:46:26

I am not sure there are adustments I could make to get though HG again. Work were brilliant, my DH was brilliant, I had sympathetic GP's that gave me everything going. But by the end of the pregnancy I was out of my mind, had lost all self-confidence and wasn't madly interested in the baby once it was born. I had PND which is still recurrent almost 2 years later, and I am still doing shit at work because I can't get back in the swing of things.

So maybe the answer is to never ttc again.

Presumably the pro-life lot would prefer that I never gave a second child of mine a chance at life rather than ttc and present said child with at least the opportunity to thrive even though it isn't 100% guaranteed that I would not feel the need to abort.

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Mon 04-Feb-13 23:49:30

ICBINEG - Have you read all of your thread?

Why are you still insisting that you have a low probability of HG in future pregnancies?

In my first pregnancy I didn't feel like I had a baby inside until the 50% survival point. Up until then I was growing a collection of cells that had the potential to become a baby

... and? Not everyone feels the same, but more importantly in a second pregnancy you might not feel the same.

I still think it comes back to the probabilities A little perhaphs - which is why you should take the time to do some research on what they are because you seem to have been badly advised about them!

There are people on this thread saying it is immoral to become pregnant unless you know you can make it through the pregnancy No, there aren't. People are saying it's immoral to become pregnant if you are already considering abortion because you feel ill and went into it knowing that was a distinct possibility.

Well in that case every woman is immoral. There are plenty of conditions that require termination and anyone could suffer from them - the difference is require.

If I have a low probability of HG in the future then why is that a worse chance to take than any of the other possible reasons? Why on earth do you think you have a low chance? You don't.

vic part of me agrees with everything you say. But if you have a baby over the age of 40 and would terminate for downs you are doing exactly the same thing - no it's not the same thing, not at all. HG lasts a few months for you, downs syndrome is a condition that the baby/child/adult will live with all their life and will impact on you for the rest of your life, not a few months. Comparing two is ridiculous.

Thanks to the many on the thread pointing out the problem of wondering if you had waited a few more days would the symptoms have gone. I think this is very true. On the other hand if I felt I could conceive again almost immediately....well it is a case of choosing which of the many children I could have actually gets a chance

That is VILE.

VicarInaTutu Mon 04-Feb-13 23:49:41

see i think the PND puts a different spin on things icb - really consider talking to your gp and even counselling - yeah i know - but it works.

you sound like the whole first pg was so traumatic - but maybe its not just about the HG....maybe its about those other things that came after on top of the HG.

ICBINEG Mon 04-Feb-13 23:51:15

tiddly yes it may be morally dodgey ground...even more so because in this case the baby would likely be healthy.

ttc while over 40 in the full knowledge you would abort a baby with downs syndrome, as well as ttc when you would abort a child carrying any other sort of genetic disorder is something that certainly is done.

If you want one child, why do you have to restrict yourself to the first random product of conception you make rather than the first one that doesn't have a genetic abnormality or the first one that doesn't make you lose your mind before it is even born?

I really don't have a problem with you doing this from a moral perspective.

However I don't think that I would find it a practical solution. If it took you 3 pregnancies, each with 6 weeks do sickness to make the decision to abort you are already upto 18 weeks of sickness, which begins to make it feel like you might as well have continued with the first one or given up after the second. So knowing when to draw the line might be difficult.

You might also feel less "collection of cells" about subsequent pregnancies having experienced having a baby. I wasn't very attached to DD until she arrived as I had no idea what having a baby would be like, but I am not convinced that I would feel that way again.

If you havent done so already, I would look for specialist counselling (perhaps a post/peri natal counsellor) and also book a private consultation with a consultant with a special interest in HG i.e.not just a random consultant at your local hospital. I would look for one who has written papers on HG.

13Iggis Mon 04-Feb-13 23:54:44

This is about much more than however many months of sickness, if you are still suffering from depression I would say that is the bigger issue surely? Fearing and panicing about the sickness is adding to the suffering of the sickness itself.

Carrie37 I was interested to see you were prescribed prednisolone for sickness, I had bad sickness in first pg, and then in final pg was on prednisolone (for recurrent mcs) and had no sickness at all until I was weaned off it. Might be worth trying for OP.

All I can think of is the terrible emotional toll an abortion could take on you if it was a wanted pregnancy and the baby was healthy.

It's extremely rare I imagine to terminate a wanted, healthy child - indeed I've never met anyone who has done so. The pregnancy is either unwanted or there's something gravely wrong.

I'm pro choice (obviously) and abortion is often difficult even if pregnancy is unwanted - women console themselves with knowing they did the best thing for them either because they'd have raised it alone, or it was a contraception mistake or whatever.

Same with the foetus having problems - we can console ourselves with the knowledge that a child doesn't have to be born if it had a serious condition or one incompatible with life.

But how will you rationalise this or come to terms with it ? (Genuine question)

I can really see where you're coming from but there are so many issues to think through - like will I get pregnant again? What if I abort and then have to cope with the fact the pregnancy may have become bearable? What about dh's relationship with the pregnancy?

There is so much guilt around abortion in ordinary circumstances - this is an extra ordinary circumstance and I really would worry for you if you didn't get some very strong support while you work through these issues.

Lots of luck smile

hopkinette Mon 04-Feb-13 23:59:47

YANBU. Do what's right for you.

hopkinette Tue 05-Feb-13 00:01:00

But how will you rationalise this or come to terms with it ? (Genuine question)

Are you serious? (genuine question)

13Iggis Tue 05-Feb-13 00:04:41

"Do what's right for you"
A number of posters I've read who think the OP should not go ahead with this plan are clearly doing so from the POV that it would not be good for the OP physically or mentally.

hopkinette Tue 05-Feb-13 00:08:50

A number of posters I've read who think the OP should not go ahead with this plan are clearly doing so from the POV that it would not be good for the OP physically or mentally.

None of the posters on this thread can know how the OP will feel if she terminates a pregnancy. They also don't know how she personally would experience a second bout of HG. I don't think I understand what your point is.

Altinkum Tue 05-Feb-13 00:14:13

This is proberly one of the most vile-est threads I have ever read.

I'm actually disgusted by it.

Absurd!

13Iggis Tue 05-Feb-13 00:15:27

My point is that I thought you were meaning she should do what she stated in OP (and ignore nae-sayers on this thread). From reading more posts from OP I don't think she is ready to say she definitely wants to try this approach, or that as a couple they have thought through the implications for them.

differentnameforthis Tue 05-Feb-13 00:16:11

I had Pre eclampsia with dd1 (9) & I went on to have a second, knowing that I risked it again. It would not have even occurred to me to abort if symptoms started to show with preg #2, because it was a baby that I wanted & loved as soon as I conceived. Thankfully I didn't suffer any problems, but I did live with the fear for 9 mths & didn't enjoy the pregnancy at all.

Because of this I do see where you are coming from wrt not wanting to go through a pregnancy that would make you sick all the time. I think it is very cold to plan to get pregnant & then abort if you can't deal with the symptoms. I walked into preg #2 with my eyes wide open, prepared to take whatever I needed to to have my baby. If I wasn't prepared to do that, I would not have TTC'd.

And I come at this from the camp that shouts pro choice. And in fact, I did terminate a pregnancy (#3 for us - not planned, nor wanted), I am not going into the details, but I am firmly on the side that it is your body your choice. But I feel this kind of premeditation over a baby is just too cold! I mean, how many times will you terminate if you keep getting sick?

AmberSocks Tue 05-Feb-13 00:16:40

i really hope this is a wind up.

If you want one child, why do you have to restrict yourself to the first random product of conception you make rather than the first one that doesn't have a genetic abnormality or the first one that doesn't make you lose your mind before it is even born?
Because we are not in the realm of designer babies yet OP, the first random product of conception is what we all get, and then have to hope for the best. It's not really a 'try before you buy' process.

I am absolutely pro choice, and if you feel you can attempt another pregnancy and possibly HG, but then find it is absolutely unbearable, I'm sure a lot of us would support you in a decision to terminate.
What I find difficult to understand from your posts is the impression I get that you would terminate at the first sign of HG, in the hope that subsequent pgs might not incur HG. It seems hasty and impractical.
As a pp said, after several pgs with HG over who knows how many years, you may find you've experienced the same amount of illness as you would have in one full term pregnancy.

differentnameforthis Tue 05-Feb-13 00:22:41

All I can find is things saying it is more likely to have it in a pregnancy if you have had it before...not by how much

Probably because there are no statistics yet, or no definite answer. Like with PE, there is a lot of out that says no risk after first, that you can't have it if you didn't have it with #1 if father is the same, the there is a risk if you already had it etc. They simply don't know, because they don't know what causes it.

My friend had PE with her 4th (same father as other 3) so bad, she started fitting (eclampsia) & they almost lost her. There is lots of unknowns.

VicarInaTutu Tue 05-Feb-13 00:23:57

i think the issue here is not the consequence of a second pg but more one of getting PND under control before you even start to think about having another.

i think you underestimate the effect that termination can have. it can be as devastating as HC if its not really what you want.

you must go and talk to your gp icb.

this is more to do with how you are feeling, and how you are feeling is very much affected by PND.

people are glossing over this issue but for me the real issue is your feelings, and how PND affects those.
you might not even realise it.

You need to sort out the issue you have now instead of worrying about an issue that might happen - sort one and the other will sort itself i think.

BTW, to the posters saying this is a vile thread/wind up etc;

This is a massive issue for the OP and I would imagine very difficult to think about on her own - surely this is the best place for her to ask the question, see others responses, and understand her reaction to them and therefore help her come to the right decision for her family?

I know I would find the prospect of a 2nd pg with a severe condition like HG a massive headfuck and would need help rationalising it before discussing it out loud in RL. Add into that long term PND.

Give her a break eh?

CheerfulYank Tue 05-Feb-13 01:50:37

This is terrifying. sad

Op I'll hide the thread now, but I really hope you seek a professional opinion. Good luck.

* On the other hand if I felt I could conceive again almost immediately....well it is a case of choosing which of the many children I could have actually gets a chance*

it's a child , not a bloody handbag! you can't decide it doesn't suit you, so get rid & get a new one.

as i said earlier, op , please seek out some form of counselling before you ttc, the more you post, the more unwell you sound- and i don't mean that nastily.
i really don't think you're thinking rationally here.

Morloth Tue 05-Feb-13 03:10:07

Honestly, from what you have posted here. In your position I would call it even and stick with the one child.

I would have liked a houseful, but it wasn't to be - so never mind, there are other things in life.

I am pro choice & if you had an about on because of hyperemesis then that's up to you. However, personally I think I would accept that I would be a one child family & wouldn't keep trying after that. Or look at adoption.

Like others have said, what happens if you terminate then don't fall pregnant again immediately? What happens if the foetus that didn't make you ill had terrible chromosomal abnormalities? I think there is way too much potential for an unhappy outcome here. But it's your choice at the end of the day.

Chubfuddler Tue 05-Feb-13 04:55:35

I was about to post in your defence op until I read the last paragraph of your last post.

That attitude is foul. Really nasty.

CinnabarRed Tue 05-Feb-13 06:23:25

If the OP had come on here and said she was desperate for another child but didn't know whether she could cope with HG again, and hence was struggling to decide whether to TTC, she would have had nothing but support.

If she had come on here, already pregnant, saying that she had conceived in the knowledge that she might suffer from HG again, but had honestly thought she could cope, but in fact couldn't, she would have had nothing but support from the vast majority.

Even up until her most recent burst of posts, I was sympathetic to her dilemma. But those last posts do display an abhorrent attitude to "the products of her conception".

OP, I truly think your mind isn't right on this subject. It's not your fault; I strongly suspect you're traumatised and possibly still depressed. Nevertheless, please, please access counselling before you even contemplate TTC.

Montybojangles Tue 05-Feb-13 06:39:05

How on earth can you compare your situation to a woman of 40 plus and the risk of downs? There is a 1 in 200 chance of a downs baby over 40 ( and many women would chose not to abort that baby). You on the other hand probably have a 1 in 2 chance of having HG in another pregnancy. No comparison really. As I said before, if you really can't face it why not adopt?

Don't have another child OP. I don't say that often but I a saying it now.
I had severe sickness in ALL of my NINE pregnancies which resulted in 5 healthy births but 4 miscarriages. It's all very well to say you got pregnant easily once it doesn't mean it will be smooth from now on. You need to take a look at the child you have the imagine you had aborted because of the sickness he/she caused. For what it's worth i am not anti abortion but someone claiming they will just keep trying until the get what they want and fuck the healthy babies they destroy to get there that is disturbing and frankly you need help.

I noticed I quoted the stats for HG in subsequent pregnancies wrongly in my previous post.

It's 16 - 19%.

I think that's a very important stat in the decision making process.

(And apparently that's 29 times higher than in the general population/ average incidence)

But still it's only 16-19% - so a very good 80% chance that will not experience it again in next pregnancy smile

(Earlier I said that it was only 20% more likely than average pregnancy which is not right. So apologies for that - I misunderstood something AF had put in her excellent link to the research article)

So, in response to Monty's post just above "you probably have a 1 in 2 chance"

... well apparently not. Research quoted here says 20% (actually 16 - 19%) which would be a 1 in 5 chance. (or slightly less)

( A 1 in 6 chance works out as 16.66 % )

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 07:58:35

On the other hand if I felt I could conceive again almost immediately....well it is a case of choosing which of the many children I could have actually gets a chance.

dude...seriously? hmm

I hope that was just badly worded because it's horrifying if that's really what you meant.

BikeRunSki Tue 05-Feb-13 08:05:10

I am not religious.
I had HG in both pg.
We have also conceived two children "at will".
I think you're nuts.

Is HG a medical basis for abortion?
How many HG pg would you abort?
And your fertility has no guarantees!

saycheeeeeese Tue 05-Feb-13 08:08:48

Hiding this thread....the small glimmer of sympathy is gone now.

Absolutely shocked at OPs further statements.

saycheeeeeese Tue 05-Feb-13 08:09:22

Hiding this thread....the small glimmer of sympathy is gone now.

Absolutely shocked at OPs further statements.

GirlOutNumbered Tue 05-Feb-13 08:10:09

I am saddened that a Doctor would keep saying its okay to keep terminating. Surely if he knows you were just going to conceive again it would be a problem for the Doctor to agree to a termination again? That would be difficult morally, surely.

ll31 Tue 05-Feb-13 08:12:02

op, i think you should talk to someonbe whose expert inhg, it maybe thay treatments may be better when they know your past experience etc, plus if you can find expert, prob treatment would be better in any case.

fwiw i can see why you're thinking as you are, it maybe that the fact you have an option-abortion-if things get too bad- may allow you to get thru the pregnancy.

i think there's an awful lot of hypocrisy in this thread, i think op is being v honest-clearly benefit of an anonymous forum.ihope you make whatever decision suits you and your family.

ll31 Tue 05-Feb-13 08:15:11

i think a lot of people posting have no idea of hg... like people who havent suffered from depression, telling someone depressed to cheer up and get over it

landofsoapandglory Tue 05-Feb-13 08:16:27

OMG I am gobsmacked at some of your further comments, OP.

I really think you need professional help, sorry. You want to try for a baby, not buy a pair of shoes. You don't keep chucking them away until you find the one that fits you!

My flabber has never been so ghasted!

BarredfromhavingStella Tue 05-Feb-13 08:18:04

This thread has made me feel so very sad.

YABU.

Please don't ttc OP. I really don't think you're in any frame of mind to be carrying or parenting another child tbh.

Crawling Tue 05-Feb-13 08:27:18

1131 I had hg on my first for 9months and was hospitalised for it I still think op is being vvvvu to consider a abortion for it. In my eyes if she should not be ttc at all and I also have bipolar so understand depression and have been very ill following all three births if you cant take the side effects of pg dont ttc.

Bicnod Tue 05-Feb-13 08:30:26

I am honestly shocked by your attitude OP. I am pro choice but this goes far beyond that. I think what you are suggesting is morally reprehensible. I really hope you decide not to ttc again.

KindleMum Tue 05-Feb-13 08:34:22

I would question your link from HG to PND. As I stated upthread, I had HG from 6 wks right to delivery on both my pregnancies. 8 weeks total in hospital with no 1. Friends were astounded at how fast I bounced back after the EMCS. However, my lovely obstetrician said it was entirely normal - he said in 40 years of practice, he'd never had an HG mother get PND and they were generally the happiest new mothers. He put it down to the fact that after such a horrid pregnancy, even the trickiest of newborns is easy by comparison and that strange post-natal hormones are still probably more "normal" than HG ones. It's a simplistic answer and I've certainly not done the research to check whether his experience of HG mothers matches the stats but I certainly don't think HG causes or makes you more likely to have PND. My friends who've had PND didn't have HG and I've had 2 HG pregs and no hint of PND. From the little you've said here, I'd wonder if you have PTSD rather than PND. Just because you'd recently given birth doesn't mean depression has to be PND, it can still be other depression. I think you should shelve the ttc question for now and see a counsellor.

Blistory Tue 05-Feb-13 08:59:02

OP, if you can only face another pregnancy knowing that you have a 'get out' if you need it, then by all means keep it in your head as a possible option. Your physical and mental health comes first no matter what.

And if you do find yourself with a pregnancy that you really can't carry to term for whatever reason, then yes, termination is an option.

And no, having a termination does not mean that you're not allowed to try again. It doesn't matter what the reasons for the termination are.

And no, you don't have to beat yourself up if you do need a termination - the expectation that any woman having a termination has to prostrate herself with grief and suffer years of mental trauma is inhumane. It's possible to view it simply as an unpleasant solution to a difficult situation. No more, no less. I can't imagine that many woman want a termination but more that it is something that they need or that they need to know is possible.

Should you conceive again, then I wish you the very best for a safe and healthy pregnancy.

Gosh, I'm slightly surprised at the strength of opinion against OP ttc in her circumstances.

I think I see the pragmatism and logical thinking in you OP where others are maybe more shocked by it.

I agree with a PP that maybe if you had just written about whether to TTC a next pregnancy it may have been more sympathetically read by others.

Perhaps you're just thinking a bit too far ahead for most of us, and logical thinking can seem a bit cold. Just take things one step at a time hey OP .... it will probably be easier for you that way as well. smile

But I think most people have not taken on board the stats I mentioned from the research quoted .... A 4 in 5 (80% +) chance that OP would not experience HG in next pregnancy.
(Actually best estimate is 81 - 84%)

socharlottet Tue 05-Feb-13 09:08:31

Ok well my previous message was deleted, so here is the toned down version.I had hideous HG with all of my PGs requiring hospitalisation, although the first 3 were the worst.
Your attitude is shocking and deeply upsetting.Having a baby isn't like playing a fruit machine you know where ifyou don't get what you want you can bin it and have another go.

brainonastick Tue 05-Feb-13 09:09:14

I read the start of the OP yesterday, and I see it is still running, but haven't read the rest of the thread.

I was just wondering if there is an alternative get-out of jail option? For example adoption or surrogacy? Normally these routes are even harder than pregnancy, but given the choices you are faced with, maybe they could work for you?

Good luck whatever you decide.

socharlottet Tue 05-Feb-13 09:12:17

Being a parent is all about being able to put their needs in front of your own.I don't think you are cut out for it OP.

2monkeybums Tue 05-Feb-13 09:17:31

Yes, yabu and I am pro choice. Stick to the one lovely child you have.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:18:04

ahhh thanks for the repeat on the stats juggling.

<was finding it a little difficult to wade through the yuck to find the info, even though I am pretending to be a big girl>

So I could reasonably expect an 80% chance of not even having to consider aborting.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 05-Feb-13 09:20:05

How many times would you be willing to get pregnant and abort until you got one that didn't make you sick?

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:21:28

I was thinking about my miscarriage last night. If I hadn't had that then I wouldn't have my lovely DD.

I got a child out of the process but it wasn't the first I conceived. Do I really need to be in deep mourning for the first proto-child when in reality if that baby had survived I wouldn't have my DD?

How different will it really feel if the same thing happens again, but on my decision rather than by luck?

I am hearing a lot on this thread that it will feel massively different which I have a lot of respect for - and massive thanks to everyone who has shared their experience to warn me of that.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:23:05

doodle

At the moment I am leaning towards not ttc at all.

Although it seems massively (perhaps overly) risk averse given I have an 80% chance of being fine with a second pregnancy.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:24:50

oops posted too soon.

I think if I even got it once more I would swing the statistics to the point that it was more likely than not that I would get it again. I wouldn't ttc if I thought there was anywhere near a 50:50 chance of needing to terminate.

brianhaddock Tue 05-Feb-13 09:28:35

this may have been said already (it's a long thread and i have skim read it) but have you considered the emotional impact of potential multiple terminations on your husband and your marriage?

You say that you didn't feel there was a baby inside you till a fair way through the pregnancy, but is the same true of your husband? is he going to be able to provide the emotional support you need if he doesn't actually support your actions? and moreover, is he going to be happy to keep playing his (vital) part in the pregnancy process knowing that there is a reasonable chance that you might want to terminate if things got too bad? While i agree it is your right to choose whether to continue with a pregnancy, you have to remember that he will have a lot invested in this too. Whiel you feel you will be able to terminate and then try to fall pregnant again straight away, he may not be quite so keen.

I do know exactly how miserable HG can be. I have had 3 awful pregnancies with HG. Even with a highly supportive GP, who worked hard to help me find appropriate treatment it was still lonely and isolating. I have had weeks and weeks (and weeks) in bed with HG and months and months off work. In all that time it never crossed my mind to abort. Ever.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:30:26

There is a lot of bile on this thread based on the idea that HG is something I 'didn't like', that was transient and it's effects limited to the 8 months of pregnancy.

I didn't dislike it, it shattered my confidence and ruined my life.
I am very much still feeling the effects day in day out as are my DH and (whether she knows it or not,) my DD.

I am glad there are people out there that survived HG without feeling it damaged their mental stability. I am very glad they thought the end product made up for process of getting it. But that isn't how I feel at all.

Could it be too that so many of us (50 - 80%) have experienced morning sickness, or general pregnancy sickness, which can certainly make you feel pretty rough, but so few (is it less than 2% ?) have experienced HG with all it's horrors.

So comments like "having a baby is all about putting their needs before your own - I don't think you're cut out for it" sound to me like they're coming from
that sort of experience.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:35:41

brian xpost there. I have not spoken to DH yet, as I am unsure of my own feelings regarding this.

This thread has been great in terms of highlighting the gap between thinking you would be prepared to abort and actually being prepared to abort when you get there.

I don't know how I can know what I would feel.

I have been trying to isolate exactly what was so damaging to me about the experience. I think a large part of it was going from being a person that people could rely on to get the job done (and a good job at that) to someone that constantly needed bailing out of trouble and filling in for. Again my work was great but I feel I let down so very many people and some of them still work for me, so the feeling never leaves.

tiggytape Tue 05-Feb-13 09:37:46

Whatever the wrongs and the rights of what you are considering, I just think the odds are against you. If you really cannot bear to suffer HG again, you'd be unable to risk any pregnancy at all.

There is a charity called HELP HER for mothers with HG. It says that 2/3 of women who have had HG will have it in every single pregnancy.

There is a page here with more info but basically the chances of having each time are very high and the decision is more about how to face that, exploring drug options etc..

Hi Icbineg - I hope you will try to remember that 80% + chance of a healthy (HG free) pregnancy from the research paper AF linked to.smile

It probably seems to you that you are likely to get it again, and most people here seem to be posting with that mind set too. But sounds like that is not the case ? And you could talk the probabilities and possibilities through with an expert ? I'm sure they would be more sympathetic and much less shocked by your pragmatism than many posters here (on what is understandably an emotive issue)

nefertarii Tue 05-Feb-13 09:39:16

op I get what you are saying.

But having an abortion destroyed me. If it was that bad then if I were you I would not ttc.

You would not go through hg again. I wouldn't go through an abortion again.

I think you are under estimating the damage aborting a healthy child will have.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:41:40

juggling That might be part of it....or it may just be that people have different threshold for what they can tolerate...or different more resilient personalities. I am sure everyone know someone who was destroyed by something that other people shrugged off (with difficulty). It doesn't mean that one person is better than another, just different.

In this case I am just trying to acknowledge and deal with a problem that might be very specific to me (although I have read of many instances of people terminating due to HG and other 'survivable' pregnancy related illnesses).

People on this thread seem okay with the idea of me risking my sanity on a 1:5 chance of getting HG, but not okay with me risking a 1:5 chance of choosing an abortion....

Mumsyblouse Tue 05-Feb-13 09:42:19

It sounds like you are traumatised by what happened before, if it is still affecting you so much even now it is over (as for example with birth trauma). I don't think getting pregnant again, experiencing the horror of HG again and aborting the baby will be remotely healing for you, in fact, if you are still very distressed by what you experienced, it's likely to reactivate it. I think you need counselling, you sound shell-shocked and still affected by this experience, and until this is dealt with or at least you have got some of your upset and distress out, I don't think ttc is a good idea.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:43:50

argh xpost again. Yes I can't know what that would be like, or how it would make me feel. I am taking away from this thread what a missive hanging variable that is.

tiggy and jug how can you have produced such massively different rates for recurrence?

EasilyBored Tue 05-Feb-13 09:45:17

From an ethics point of view, I'm 100% pro-choice, so I don't have a problem if you have no abortions, you have 1 abortion or you have 20. I would be very worried about your own emotional wellbeing (and perhaps your lifestyle) if you felt you needed 20 abortions, but I'm not about to start putting caveats on in what situations you can terminate a pregnancy. The Mother's right to bodily autonomy always come first.

However, in this situation, I think that you really need to speak to a professional and work out exactly what your plan of action will be if the HG happens again, what they can do to help you, and where you will draw the line if it's gets too much. Have you considered some counselling to look at exactly how the HG made you feel and how you can perhaps mitigate those fears if it does happen again?

Mumsyblouse Tue 05-Feb-13 09:45:24

And- if having HG means risking your sanity, don't do it, you don't have to. I know plenty of people who had an experience first time around (e.g. terrible birth trauma, post-natal psychosis) which made them say that taking that chance to have it again wasn't worth it. I think if you really feel your relationship with your dd is still affected by the trauma of HG, then it is that that needs dealing with.

Most people aren't saying take the chance of anything, they are saying that a repeat of HG plus abortion would likely be very traumatic for you, in fact, the more you have said, the more I am convinced that it would indeed be very traumatic for you, and not because of the abortion necessarily (you would have to experience HG to get to that stage which is your worst fear).

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:46:40

mumsy I think you absolutely correct. When I wrote the post about letting people down I started crying and haven't stopped.

There is no way I should be considering ttc while in this sort of state. I can't even believe I considered it.

I hadn't realised how raw it all still is.

I had a horrible pregnancy with bad morning sickness (throwing up all day, couldn't eat couldn't drink) spd and carpal tunnel. It took me 2 years to even think about ttc again and 2 and a half before we did start to ttc again. I'm terrified my pregnancy will be as bad again as it was hell but I wouldn't terminate even if it was the same again or worse. I just wouldn't I've already been trying for 8 months and I don't care how ill I am if I want a child then I will have that child. That is how I feel.
I would say if you think you'd terminate then maybe leave it a bit longer before you ttc again. Maybe get some counselling to help you deal with the effects that hg had on you. I am pro choice but the thought of thinking of aborting a potentially healthy baby before you're even pregnant just feels a bit wrong to me. I feel terribly sorry for you but think you need to get some help before it gets to having to make that choice.

FamiliesShareGerms Tue 05-Feb-13 09:47:40

I am very pro-choice, but in the circumstances you describe I would be very sad indeed if abortion was being used as a "cure" for a pg related illness.

If you want another child but cannot take the risk of a horrendous pg, there are other options you could explore (surrogacy, adoption) to complete your family. None are easy, but perhaps not necessarily harder than aborting a healthy baby, with all that that entails physically, mentally and emotionally.

StickEmUp Tue 05-Feb-13 09:47:43

I didn't dislike it, it shattered my confidence and ruined my life.
I think in that case you have to face facts - cold hard facts - pregnancy is not for you. If the HG is that bad you have to listen to your body.

You have one, lucky I'd say and you love her very much.
Concerntrate on her, your marriage, your life and wellbeing.

Xposts with several people.

Mumsyblouse Tue 05-Feb-13 09:49:16

Oh bless you, you know what, you sound to me really traumatised about it all, similar to birth trauma, and I really think this is something that can be helped by counselling/seeing someone who specializes in this area. I'm so sorry you are still suffering over this, but I do think it can be helped and that is what you need to focus on. The rest will take care of itself later on.

FamiliesShareGerms Tue 05-Feb-13 09:49:23

Sorry, x-posted. OP, good luck

DIYapprentice Tue 05-Feb-13 09:51:50

Icineg - I'm the same with DS2, I had a miscarriage before him, and I wouldn't have him if I hadn't had the miscarriage. I am SAD about the miscarriage as it was a crap experience, but I don't mourn the child that could have been. I know others do, but I don't and never have. But then I never 'saw' the foetus on a scan, as due to a missed miscarriage there was nothing to see in the scan, but for 12 weeks I believed I was pregnant. Did that make a difference? I don't know. I also NEVER refer to 3 pregancies (except for medical forms when pregnant with DS2) or a 3rd child (have heard others call them angel babies). To me I had 2 pregnancies and have 2 children.

So I think you already have a different mind set to some others, and would handle it differently. The question is, would it be differently enough to go through an abortion and to deal with it afterwards?

Lickitysplit Tue 05-Feb-13 09:52:24

YABU, you cannot pick and choose what preg symptons would suit you. Don't ttc if you think you would abort.

toddlerama Tue 05-Feb-13 09:55:02

^Trying a pregnancy out for size with no commitment to seeing it through is thoroughly immoral.

You have the benefit of hindsight here, use it.^

This^

You know that you can't cope with HG (you believe - actually, you did cope with it once and didn't abort). If you are unwilling to see the pregnancy through, don't start it. I can't quite believe that abortion is seen as such a soft option to be honest.

I wont mention the consequences to the foetus, because I realise you don't think that it has feelings, but you clearly have a naive view about how an abortion can affect everyone involved (parents, grandparents, siblings) and when we're talking about a wanted child??! How will you decide when the HG's bad enough? Will you abort at the first whiff of nausea or will you get to 5 months and see if it's abated yet? Would your DH want to see you really, really sick before he contemplated it or would he take your word for it that the HG was on it's way back. There are so many 'slippery slope' arguments here that I can't see how your family could possibly emerge without some serious damage. If you can't contemplate seeing the pregnancy through based on your past experience, then seriously don't start it. There are other ways to expand your family. None of them easy, but I think they would be easier than what you are contemplating. Good luck navigating this OP. HG is no picnic, and neither is it morning sickness. It's life threatening and terrifying at times. No-one is denying that, but if you know you can't handle it, just don't go there at all.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 09:55:04

Ahh I think the difference in the stats is due to the 2/3rds number applying to people who have had HG more than once already having it again.

So if I had did conceive and did suffer HG I would be left in the position of knowing it was far more likely than not that every pregnancy would be this way for me. I would have embarked on having another child and be left with essentially a choice of no child or HG.

That I think would be very very difficult to deal with.

toddlerama Tue 05-Feb-13 09:56:45

You're right. Statistically, a lot hangs on the second pregnancy it seems.

Which only makes the decision to try or not more loaded sad

DIYapprentice Tue 05-Feb-13 09:57:36

Icbineg - I don't think you should consider ttc until you deal with the trauma of your pregnancy. I had crap first pregnany, but nothing compared to yours, and I was really scared of ttc again. I can't even imagine still suffering and ttc again which you are.

aldiwhore Tue 05-Feb-13 09:57:50

I think my stance/opinion is this. You do not know for sure that your next pregnancy will be horrendous. You want another child. You would be prepared to abort if the HG was bad enough.

I think it's rather a simple matter of balancing all these things... the thought of having HG may make you think you'd abort. But would you? I think it's one of those things that you don't know until it happens.

I have two boys, I didn't have HG but I did have rotten pregnancies both times, really really rotten. I vowed after my first that he would be an only child, the thought of going through it again really gave me a feeling of dread. The second pregnancy (conceived when I had to have my coil removed, like about the week after!!) was awful too, but once I got through the 12 week point, I had arranged support for me, my DH was wonderful - when I couldn't move he stepped in - I think this is what kept me going. That and the first flutters in my belly.

The only advice I can give is sometimes you have to suffer to get what yo truly want. If you are sure you'd abort, potentially more than once, then for me, it would not be balanced, I would not TTC. However, you cannot live on what ifs, and you cannot be 100% sre that you would abort even if you felt like it. It's your decision to make, and I absolutely feel for you and support your right to choose, but I do understand some of the outrage... I think perhaps, you are overthinking what ifs. Good luck in whatever you decide.

HyvaPaiva Tue 05-Feb-13 09:57:51

The idea that 'pro choice is pro choice' is fine: if someone aborts for any reason, that's their choice. I'm totally in agreement with the principle that you can terminate if you wish.

However I am horrified by your planned scenario: pregnant, HG, terminate and try again. It's disgusting to enter into a cycle like that. Pregnant, HG, terminate, STOP is the only way I can see your plan as okay.

MmeLindor Tue 05-Feb-13 09:59:07

I totally get where you are coming from.

I had 2 mcs before I conceived DD and now look back on then with a little sadness but no real regret because if they hasn't happened, I wouldn't have DD.

It is separating the embryo that was lost from the child that might have been born, if the pregnancy has gone ahead. This thinking helped me move on from the miscarriages.

I am pro choice. I support a woman's right to choose and I support a woman's right to come on MN and work through an obviously difficult decision - it would have been better to have posted on a day where you could stick around and reply rather than posting and disappearing. Things got a bit heated in the meantime.

From your subsequent posts, I'd say that you need to talk to a counsellor about your pregnancy and the resulting depression. It's clear that the HG was only the start of the issues that you have and you need help working through the rest before you even consider TTC.

It seems to me that many consider themselves pro choice, but only up to their personal 'moral' line. To accuse the OP of being immoral because her line lies elsewhere is very unfair.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:00:15

I don't object in principle to the idea of keeping termination as a stand by opt out clause, should you ttc again.

I think that's really understandable. Also having tat option I think hel;ped keep me sane when I was going through it - just basically, one more day, I can do this, just one more day at a time and if it's too much, I can choose that option.

I never did choose that option but it was there and that lessened the terror and panic, for me.

What I object to is the idea of seeing how bad it gets, terminating and then trying again until you find a pregnancy that doesn't make you sick, and keeping that one. It might never happen.

I think that's what I am struggling with. But mainly the obscene concept of choosing a child that doesn't give you HG. That sounds far too close to eugenics for my comfort...if that's what it's called. Sorry I am not an authority on this subject, but the way you describe this - 'which of my children gets to survive'- made me feel very shocked.

Ashoething Tue 05-Feb-13 10:01:27

YABVU. You do realise that in some cases a termination can lead to complications that cause infertility? so you may not be able to just try again willy nilly.

I am sorry you had such a horrible time. I have suffered horrible complications of pregnancy but I was willing to put up with them as it was very important to us to give our dc a sibling. Perhaps you should stick to one child?...

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:01:50

lickety As many have said, you cannot know what would drive you to abort. People have aborted first pregnancies due to HG who previously would not have considered abortion.

I am certain I could survive a 'normal' pregnancy. I am uncertain I would continue with a pregnancy with certain symptoms attached....

Most women conceive without even considering that they may find the experience so unbearable that they might wish to terminate.

Are they better than me because they haven't thought about it before hand?

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:07:17

Sorry - I should not have used that word, it is far too extreme. Please read my previous post and ignore that line.

I just meant - the blatant choosing of a potential child based on its capacity to fulfil our needs, or not cause us hardship.

I hope that makes some sort of sense.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 05-Feb-13 10:08:57

How would your husband feel about it? Sorry if I've missed that.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:09:37

soo...you are allowed to terminate a pregnancy because although you want another child at some point, the timing isn't right....

but it is vile to consider terminating a pregnancy because although you want another child the current one is making you unbearably ill?

Having said that, it is close to eugenics....especially if you consider the role that the sex of the baby may have in all this. Ie that babies of certain sexes are more likely to lead to HG than others for individuals.

I am not sure it is closer to eugenics than selecting eggs so that you will not pass on a genetic disorder.

In one case you are choosing for the sake of the health of the offspring in the other for the sake of the health of the mother.

tiggytape Tue 05-Feb-13 10:10:34

Ahh I think the difference in the stats is due to the 2/3rds number applying to people who have had HG more than once already having it again.

Yes, sorry you are right. The statisics for second pregnancies vary between 20 and 50% depending on which study you look at.

But of course if you do fall pregnant, and HG sets in, then you are automatically in the very high risk category of getting HG every single time so your plan probably wouldn't be a workable one anyway (setting aside the potential distress it could cause).

HG isn't something that improves with multiple pregnancies. In fact all the statistics show that if you've had it twice, then you're much more likely to continue getting it. Your planned cycle of ttc-HG-abort is not improving your odds of a HG free pregnancy because each episode of HG makes future episodes more and more likely.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:10:58

doodle I have not spoken to DH about it as I wanted to get my own feelings clear first. I know he desperately wants more kids...so I didn't want to expose myself to that added pressure until I was sure of my own position.

BikeRunSki Tue 05-Feb-13 10:11:54

Interestingly, mu grandfather was a GP in the 1910s-1950s and my mother still has one of his medical reference books. When I was suffering with HG I looked it up, and the book said that the normal course of action was termination. A different time, with different other treatments available.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:12:30

tiggy yes, that is an important point...as I said before if I got it again I would not ttc again as the chances would be better than 50:50 on it being recurrent.

So really it comes down to having one more go or not. Recurrent aborting is off the table.

Mumsyblouse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:13:12

If I were you, instead of worrying about hypothetically aborting foetuses which don't yet exist, I'd be perhaps talking with a good friend, or your husband, or finding a counsellor to talk through what happened last time. I think you fixating on the 'but I can have an abortion' solution is not actually helping you deal with the trauma of what you feel now, which is still ongoing distress and upset about the last pregnancy.

There are so many options in this scenario: decide to stick to one child (because pregnancy is not for everyone, and your own sanity is very important), adopt or have other children but not through pregnancy, get counselling and work out some concrete plans of how to cope with another pregnancy (even one with HG), pay for a private consultant who specialises in this area and set up the help you need, or just go ahead and get pregnant and see what happens, it's amazing how people cope with things they don't think they can cope with (you did last time, whatever you say). And, of course, there is the option of abortion.

But I don't think having a plan like the one you are suggesting, especially as it hasn't been discussed with your husband/partner, is a good idea, or even what is likely to happen, not because it is morally wrong (I am not interested in debating this) but because it is a very traumatic pathway for you, as it would take you down the path of fear of losing your sanity again, and I wouldn't go there unprepared except for the nuclear option, go having considered everything and had counselling and with plans in place to deal with HG.

icebineg I haven't read all the thread but here's my experiance

I've had 8 pg, 3 were early mc, I've had hg twice and really bad sickness with the other 3. My worst hg pg was ds3, luckily ds1&2 were older which made it easier.

We had been ttc for 14 months and I mc 2 months before I conceived him. I remember at one point just wishing the pg would go away. I spent most of the first 6 months (he was born at 32 weeks) laying on the sofa, couldn't cook or clean it was like really bad sea sickness.

Some things to think about are
. How much support do you have? I couldn't have gotten through it without dp who was fantastic.
. If you needed to be in hospital could you sort out childcare for dd.
. Look into medication, there is a fantastic support group for hg in the pregnancy topic where you can learn about meds and what worked for some women.
. Emotional impact of being ill or going through a termination. It will feel different to your mc's

I couldn't go through a termination due to hg, however after how ill I was with ds3 I can understand why people do, or why they at least consider it.

My last 3 pg have been in the last 2 years so the hg didn't put me off, however me and dp did have long talks about how we could cope and the impact it would have on our relationship.

Ds4 was born too early at 20 weeks when ds3 was 7 months old, I was sick but nothing like with ds3

I've just given birth to ds5 (last fri) this oh was the sane, really bad sickness but not hg. Ds3 is now 23 months old and we've managed, but I have a great family and fantastic support.

I had HG in both my pregnancies. The second pregnancy was much worse than the first. I considered terminating the second pregnancy because I was so ill and just wanted it to stop. I didn't, and now have two wonderful, healthy sons. I didn't terminate, but knowing that I could gave me the courage to continue. I took it one hour at a time.

I know the horror of HG. I know what it's like to vomit in your sleep. I know what it's like to vomit blood from burst blood vessels in your stomach and throat. I know what it's like to feel the earth rotate beneath you, to smell perfumes from a mile away, to not be able to swallow your own saliva, to be too weak to walk to the bathroom.

Every pregnancy is a gamble. If you want another child, you need to work out how far you are willing to go. It's possible to get put under consultant care from the word go if you have a sympathetic GP. If you don't have a sympathetic GP, get one. You need to know that should you get ill, it will be taken seriously and you will be treated quickly. HG is a cycle, and early intervention makes all the difference.

I desperately wanted another baby. I was advised to put on half a stone so I had weight to lose, and to prepare for the pregnancy by taking a decent multivitamin for six months prior. In the end, there was no third pregnancy. I was told that the likelihood of me holding on to another pregnancy was poor and that I'd be putting my own health at risk.

My advice to you is to get all the information you can, from a knowledgable doctor. They do exist. Put in place an action plan should you need to be hospitalised. And then, when you've done all that, really think about how you'll cope if it hits again.

I don't blame you for having termination in the back of your mind, and I wouldn't judge you if you just couldn't face another HG pregnancy. In my opinion, though, if you terminate for HG you need to face up to the fact that having more children might not happen for you. There are no guarantees, but my understanding is that if you have more than one HG pregnancy the likelihood of subsequent pregnancies going the same way gets higher and higher.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:15:36

'I am not sure it is closer to eugenics than selecting eggs so that you will not pass on a genetic disorder.

In one case you are choosing for the sake of the health of the offspring in the other for the sake of the health of the mother. '

see if someone was getting pregnant serially and aborting each embryo/foetus which carried the gene - I'd find that pretty uncomfortable too.

Choosing your eggs on the basis of health concerns, for the parents or the child, is totally different and far more acceptable imo.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:18:27

'So really it comes down to having one more go or not. Recurrent aborting is off the table. '

Well that's a relief. The fact you were considering it though makes me very concerned.

Chubfuddler Tue 05-Feb-13 10:18:30

I think there's a big difference between thinking that if you had not had a mc you would have had a different child and not gave minded at all (because you never would have conceived the child you do have - totally get that, am in same boat) and what you're suggesting op. big difference.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:21:19

Op an see you are terrifed and want some kind of guarantee or assurance that you will not have to go through what you went through, again.

That's currently not possible. No one can tell you that.

Because no one knows till you're pregnant and it's already happening. I too wish I could be given the safety of an assured HG free pregnancy - I'd have 6 more babies. But I cant' be given that assurance. So it's a case of no, I cannot do it again - and last time it was a case of 'grit your teeth and here we go' and it was horrendous, for me and for my poor children who had to learn to fend for themselves pretty much.

You can't have a guarantee. You have to be prepared that this pregnancy will give you as much trouble as the last - it may not, it may well. No one knows.

tiggytape Tue 05-Feb-13 10:22:34

ICBINEG - I think the advice to seek proper help for the awful experience you have had is good. It has obviously traumatised you a great deal.

A lot of the advice for women who've had HG seems to be 'hope for the best, prepare for the worst'
If you approach a future pregnancy in good health (physically and emotionally), with GP and specialist medical support, with emergency childcare and cover at work considered etc it wouldn't necessarily be a repeat of last time. You may still get HG but it wouldn't be the unexpected emergency that drags on for months and upsets your work and causes chaos in your life. It would be planned for but still physically awful. You would need to get this support in place before ttc and make sure your DH and family will step in to help you.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:25:27

In fact I would do anything to prevent another pregnancy, because they are so so bad for me and my children - I'm thinking along the lines of sterilistion, at the moment, but then, I already have enough children and do not feel the need for any more.

I I were younger and had only one, I would feel immense pressure to have more. That's what happened in fact. It's only now, after three, and being nearly 40, that I feel I'm allowed to stop and say, no more.

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 10:30:31

So really it comes down to having one more go or not. Recurrent aborting is off the table.

ICBINEG did you come to that conclusion after working through the replies on this thread ?

DreamingofSummer Tue 05-Feb-13 10:30:54

YABVU

You could have a look at that link from Any Fucker too as there are some preventative things mentioned that could reduce the risk a little - vitamins in early pregnancy are good, risk reduces with age (so that means reduces with time !), a higher BMI is good (so maybe consider putting on a little weight ?)

- I think those were the 3 I noticed.

Did you feel any sickness with the pregnancy where you miscarried ? I know you said it was an early m/c ? But if not (and felt less ill then) that could be a little encouraging ?

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:32:36

chub would you please explain (as if talking to an idiot) exactly what the difference is between the two cases?

I genuinely think I don't get it.

Likewise why is it more acceptable to choose the specific egg and sperm you will make a child from than to choose on the basis of how sick the pregnancy is making you? (clearly it would be better from my point of view if I could get eggs/sperm screened for HG potential but I don't think that is possible atm).

Is this just a life has begun and is sacred argument?

IF my beliefs are that life is no more or less present in a fused egg-sperm than in separate sperm and eggs then is there still some reason I should see the two processes differently?

I had HG with both mine, I had 18 years between them and was hospitalised during both pregnancies.. Think about it very carefully, HG is usually a sign of a healthy, secure pregnancy and you could be wasting a chance of a lovely perfect baby. I think that's a tough decision to make and to live with afterwards especially if you really want another child. Be careful, a decision like that could have a detrimental effect on your mental health and I'd hate for you to regret the decision.

Wait a while, discuss it with your GP, see what treatments would be available during the pregnancy to make it easier for you.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:34:56

AF yes I did. The fact that a second attack of HG means that recurrent attacks are the norm means that a third attempt would be far more likely to fail than the second and so on.

If it were a random process with a 4:5 chance of success each time I would be worth trying more than once if you are unlucky the first time. If it is correlated as it is then that argument does not hold.

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 10:37:16

Then I am glad you posted here, IC. And everyone giving you a very hard time on this thread should acknowledge that you have listened and taken stuff on board.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:38:21

shit...was already overweight BMI the first time....

I didn't get far enough in first pregnancy to experience much sickness and certainly not anywhere near the point that I could tell if it was HG.

I did get a thing where I couldn't walk up hills from 4 weeks onwards...that happened in both cases...which makes me worry that my body has a batshit mental response to being pregnant in general.

A lot of the time I feel guilty for having a girl....I mean why should she have to face this same sort of choice in the future....

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 05-Feb-13 10:38:25

I was thinking about my miscarriage last night. If I hadn't had that then I wouldn't have my lovely DD. I got a child out of the process but it wasn't the first I conceived. Do I really need to be in deep mourning for the first proto-child when in reality if that baby had survived I wouldn't have my DD? How different will it really feel if the same thing happens again, but on my decision rather than by luck?

Completely different! With a miscarriage you know that there was nothing you could do to prevent it and possibly the pregnancy wouldn't have produced a child or healthy child anyway. That's the way i think about my miscarriage, that it just wasn't working and growing correctly.

With an abortion you will never know and will always know what a wonderful child they could have grown into who you would have loved as much as your daughter.

I had spd in pregnancy. Different but without its own risks. Obviously there is the horrific pain, inability to do what you need to do whilst you have it, look after older children or work or do housework etc. There is also a risk of being left permanently disabled as happened to someone i know. I had it in my first pregnancy so the chances were higher for my second and i did get it again. I never considered aborting because that didn't seem like a solution. Partly because if i had aborted that child to save myself health issues i would never have forgiven myself and would have grieved for that baby forever, partly because no future pregnancy could have replaced that baby, and partly because it might have meant my never having another baby because it can never be guaranteed you'd get pregnant again.

I think the choice is either never have another child or take the risk and deal with any illness that comes with it. I made sure i could get refered to physio as quick as possible and also knew what action i could take to help myself and went into it with eyes open.

I think you are a very rational, logical person Icbineg !
I admire you for that, and for thinking things through beforehand so sensibly.

Yes, I think you've come to quite a good conclusion there ... that it's "having one more go or not" ... So, considering TTC one more pregnancy ?

As other posters sensible suggested it may be best for your well-being not to try to think further ahead than that for the time being anyway. One step at a time ?

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:44:02

AF oh it's okay...lots of people think having an abortion for any reason is vile...I am not surprised to hear it is vile to consider getting pregnant if you think you might need to abort....

In my book anyone who goes into pregnancy without considering the fact they may need to abort is hopelessly naive.

Everyone is just hoping for the best in the end. In my case the odds may be stacked higher against me than most people considering ttc....but it is just a matter of scale not the principle of the matter that is different.

I suspect the real problem is people not believing it is possible to be ill enough in pregnancy to consider aborting...but there are plenty of other people on here who at least considered it to convince me I am not totally out on a limb.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 10:46:02

juggling yes this thread has also made me very aware that I am not remotely ready to ttc yet. I need to be in a much better place first.

Oh well I guess the 'shame on you, you don't deserve to be a parent' gang will have their way at least for the time being....

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:47:30

Just as an aside I've heard girls make you sicker - though all of mine were boys.

You ask about the difference between choosing egg and aborting, and why they are different.

Well, I will ask you in return - at what point in your mind, does the fused egg and sperm become an actual baby?

I feel that if your body has not been given the triggers to nurture that life - ie the hormones have not yet been released, you're not actually pregnant, then it's not a life yet.

But once these hormones are there - once your body is keyed up to protecting this little creature, to making you a safe place for it, and all those complex processes are in force, it eels very wrong, to me, to try and block that - to try and kill, not just the creature but the processes around it.

I don't know how much sense that makes to other people but it felt tragic and so so sad to do that, for me - like drowning a tiny kitten. I made the appointments, I had the counselling, but no, I did not want to gothrough with it and when it came down to it very bone in my body made me angry at the clinic, at the counsellor, at the people wanting me to get rid.

I surprised myself at how vehemently I would protect my tiny baby/bundle of cells. Not that I felt attached to it during the pregnancy - that's different. I just felt strongly about not sticking a spanner in the works, of something my body was trying so desperately hard to do.

but you might find you are very different to me in this respect.

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 10:48:54

how old is your other child ?

I think it sensible to wait a while longer, going off some of the other stuff you have disclosed on this thread. Get yourself into a better position. There is a 5 year gap between my two, and I still found it very, very hard although I didn't suffer from any mental health complications at all.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 10:51:50

Just to reiterate I do understand how HG can drive you to want to terminate - very much so.

I just about managed to hold on, with God knows what reserves. I actually wished for a miscarriage, it was so horrid. But I didn't feel I could take that decision into my own hands, despite holding onto the idea, having it as a get out clause. I'm not very religious but I just felt a baby was the only positive option - I didn't know if I could live with haing 'failed' - to me it felt like there would be nothing left if I terminated. I couldn't bear that thought, to have gonethrough so much, for nothing.

CinnabarRed Tue 05-Feb-13 10:52:40

OP, if I may be so bold - perhaps now is the time to leave this thread?

You have reached two monumental conclusions: that you are not yet ready to TTC; and that any subsequent pregnancy is pretty much the last one (either because you won't get HG and so will see the pregnancy through to the end - with luck! - or because you will get HG and wouldn't be prepared to risk any subsequent pregnancies).

Those are fantastic revelations.

I'm not sure you'll get any more from this thread becuase the views on it are too polarised. And some are downright hurtful.

All the very best for the future.

Badvoc Tue 05-Feb-13 10:53:26

Op.
You sound very logical and sensible to me.
I am rampantly pro choice and that means pro choice for all women, whatever the reason.
I wish you luck, whatever you decide x

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 10:54:36

Good call, CR

and all the very best of luck, IC

landofsoapandglory Tue 05-Feb-13 10:56:50

ICBINEG. I am glad, for your sake that you started this thread, it has at least made you aware that you are not ready to have another baby just yet.

Pregnancy did ruin my life, permanently, so I sort of know where you are coming from. I don't think abortion is vile, but I don't agree with what you were thinking of at the beginning of the thread. I do wish you well, though.

tiggytape Tue 05-Feb-13 10:57:12

ICBINEG - You aren't vile. You are desperate and deeply upset by what happened to you. You are looking for ways to have another child without going through such a horrific experience again. That's probably a very natural response even though your solution isn't one that would work (in terms of the odds being stacked against it and in terms of the emotional pain it is likely to add to what you've already been through).

When you are more recovered and when you are able to get plans in place to deal with ttc and a possible reoccurence of HG, the physical ordeal might be the same but hopefully having some control over it all will make it bearable in a way that your last pregancy wasn't. Or maybe the risk of reoccurence means that you decide to explore other routes to having a child or decide that the odds are too great to ever risk it at all. I think you need more time to recover first and leave planning until later.

MmeLindor Tue 05-Feb-13 11:04:59

I agree with CR about leaving the thread - perhaps even asking MNHQ to lock it so that the debate cannot carry on and upset you further.

I am really glad that the discussion here helped you. It is clear that you have a lot of issues to work through before you can even contemplate getting pregnant. It is great that the sensible and thoughtful posters on the thread helped you come to that realisation.

Best of luck.

Halfling Tue 05-Feb-13 11:05:16

ICBINEG, very few posters here have had any experience with HG. They wouldn't be so judgemental if they had to suffer it themselves.

Like you, I had the most horrific HG with my first pregnancy, hospitalised for 8 days, lost 20+ pounds in the first 4 months and then followed up with a massive haemorrhage at the time of child birth. I still haven't gained back the courage for ttc again.

If one can abort for convenience, sanity, birth defects, I don't think there is anything wrong with aborting because of HG complications.

But you need to think very carefully about planned abortion. I had to have one with my first pregnancy and I still can't get over it.

Ooh yes, I absolutely love Cinnabar's post

Hold onto those two monumental decisions IC and as AF says "all the very best of luck" to you x

MyHeadWasInTheSandNowNot Tue 05-Feb-13 11:30:46

I agree with CR - totally.

You need to sort out what is going on with you now - you need counselling to deal with it. You are a long way off being ready to TTC even if you could be guaranteed an 'easy' pregnancy.

JenaiMorris Tue 05-Feb-13 11:31:24

Excellent post Cinnabar. And well done IC.

Clearly the OP has found this thread useful and reached a very sensible conclusion which i am relieved to read.

I think that many posters could also helpfully reflect on this thread because if you say you're pro-choice then that means you are for choice, not that you will always like the choice, doesn't mean you would make that choice. The point is you support the right of the pregnant woman in making that choice. You aren't required to have a view about how 'good' a choice it is.
There are a lot of posts on this thread which are not pro choice at all. By all means express concern for the health and well being of the OP but respect her right, every woman's right to make a choice you don't like.
Our right to terminate pregnancy is not a given. It has to be defended and fought for. As soon as you start to say 'abortion is ok if..' you begin to undermine that right. There's no place for anybody's moral compass in this situation except for the OP.

And it's a right that still needs to be fought for in the UK isn't it NorthernLurker ?

I think I'm right in saying that it isn't an absolute right in this country but 2 doctors have to agree there is a medical reason for it, including the mental well-being of the mother. I think abortion was debated on Panorama the other night but I didn't have the opportunity to watch it (partly as pre-teens were still up and wasn't comfortable to watch it with them)

But anyway I do appreciate your thoughts about accepting others choices even where they are different from what our own might be.

Pigsmummy Tue 05-Feb-13 12:03:32

Can you speak to a consultant about treatment for HG before you continue to TTC?

Greythorne Tue 05-Feb-13 12:07:19

I reiterate that I am really shocked by the "I am pro-choice, but..." posts.

If morally you believe a woman has the right to choose , please can you explain to me why aborting to avoid 9 months of physical and emotional hell and possible PND is any different to scenarios such as:

-- she is getting married and wants to fit into her wedding dress she has already paid for

-- she had a one night stand and doesn't know if the sperm came from her ONS or her DH

-- she hates kids

-- she has just taken a good job and doesn't want to jeopardise it

I am pro choice 100% so I don't think about "good" and "bad" reasons but if pushed I would argue the OP's reasons are better than the reasons listed above, all of which are reasons for abortion in my direct circle of friends.

OP - I jave no idea why you are getting such a hard time from the "disgusted" and "it's immoral" posts.

I think some people think they are pro-choice but actually what they mean is that only if you are 14 and raped by a family member.

ffs

EasilyBored Tue 05-Feb-13 12:11:32

As I said, I am pro-choice, and to me it does matter why you are having an abortion, or how many you have, except that I would find it concerning for a woman to be in a position where she felt she needed 50 or 6 abortions etc. So you can be pro-choice and not pass a judgement on why someone chooses to end a pregnancy, but still be concerned for the woman's welfare? Does that make sense.

EasilyBored Tue 05-Feb-13 12:11:50

Sorry, does not matter why.

I agree Greythorne. A lot of people say 'pro-choice' but what they mean is 'abortion with limits' and that's very dodgy ground indeed.

Absolutely juggling - we do not have abortion on demand in this country. the current situation depends on the laws passed by Parliament. Rights can be lost far more easily than gained.

Yes Easily that does make sense and is a reasonable position.

TiredMule Tue 05-Feb-13 12:15:52

I had bad morning sickness with dd1 and HG with dd2. She was much longed after, but I was still so low that several times I thought I couldn't continue. However, I couldn't abort either and crazy as it sounds if someone was prepared to shoot me at my lowest I might have agreed. But now looking back I know it was bad, bad was only months and i'm through the other side with 2 gorgeous dds. I wasn't back to normal til she was 6months old. I now desperately want dc3 despite the fact that i'm almost certain i'll get HG again, as I thought it tends to get worse with each subsequent pregnancy. I'm prepared to go through it all again for the end result. I just need to convince DH!
I'm sorry but I don't believe an abortion us an option when you are well aware beforehand of what quite likely will happen, and it is not life and death (though I grant you it may feel that way when you are suffering)
I'd say to stick with one unless you can cope with the HG again.

milf90 Tue 05-Feb-13 12:24:19

i havent read through all the comments yet, but i have to say i think YABU and extremely naive.

at what point do you decide the sickness is hyperemesis and not just normal sickness?

i had morning sickness up until 20 weeks - at 21 weeks (where babies have actually survived) could you have had an abortion?

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 12:24:31

Apologies...I am not disappearing for lengths because I am upset...just because rl keeps interrupting.

I have found a lot of the comments, possibly in particular the 'I am pro-choice but' ones that don't get stabby, very useful.

I have also really appreciated people talking through their own HG and even abortion stories. I know I can't know how it would be for me but seeing some many people finding it far harder than they expected is a massive wake up call.

Again I am really grateful.

Chingchok Tue 05-Feb-13 12:28:33

I have had HG with my only child, and because of it he is still an only child. I am not ready to go through it again yet.

I was severely ill but I know some people are even more so, to the extent that their life is at risk and termination becomes necessary. I personally had no cause to consider abortion but then I was only sick multiple times a day for 6 months. There were so many moments I wondered how I could make it through the day, let alone the entire pregnancy.

Someone that has never suffered HG cannot even begin to understand. To describe it as "feeling sick" is just ridiculous.

I want so much to have another child and I like to believe I wouldn't even consider abortion, but I don't know that for sure.

WhichIsBest Tue 05-Feb-13 12:29:02

I should have said, I thought you should wait, not because I thought you were vile or anything, but because I thought you didn't seem ready.
I remember feeling that afraid of another pregnancy.
I hope that whatever choices you make in the future it works out for you. Best of luck.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 12:33:17

chingchok Yes I would like to believe I could get through too. It is the thought that it could be worse than last time...or that it could compound the MH issues I picked up the last time....IYSWIM it could feel a lot worse mentally the second time even if physically it was similar.

I think the only answer to that is to get myself well before considering it again at some point in the future.

KindleMum Tue 05-Feb-13 12:58:10

Whether you ttc or not, I think you really need to talk to your doc and your OH about how you are still suffering. It is not "normal" (in the sense of common, rather than judgy) to be still suffering so much psychologically from the HG after this long. I think you need to talk this through in rl, maybe with a counsellor. Surely you can't think it's OK to still feel like this? Don't you deserve a better quality of life? Even if you decide your family is now complete, it would be best to get back to feeling like "you" again.

FWIW, I got sterilised after my second HG preg as I (and DH) was 100% positive I couldn't do it a third time and I didn't want to be in the position of an unplanned HG preg. I'd signed forms for the sterilisation to be done during the CS, even if the baby turned out to be stillborn.

CinnabarRed Tue 05-Feb-13 13:15:38

I just wanted to say, as someone who hasn't ever suffered with HG, how very much I admire all of you who have. It sounds horrendous, and the number of posters here who struggled through HG pregnancies and came out the other side with a beautiful newborn is testamony to the strength of women.

BikeRunSki Tue 05-Feb-13 13:19:23

HG is normally diagnosed (rather than MS) if the sufferer is vomiting throughout the day; can not keep themselves hydrated; loses weight over several weeks; body goes into ketosis; medical intervention is required.

In my case, both pg, I could not move (not even my head, or stand up) without throwing up, even moving in bed in my sleep. Anything I swallowed - food, drink, mess, dribbles of toothpaste, bits of water from shower - bounced straight back up. I was admitted to hospital with 4+ ketones in my wee and it took between 48 hrs and 2 weeks(!) to rehydrate me.

BikeRunSki Tue 05-Feb-13 13:19:24

HG is normally diagnosed (rather than MS) if the sufferer is vomiting throughout the day; can not keep themselves hydrated; loses weight over several weeks; body goes into ketosis; medical intervention is required.

In my case, both pg, I could not move (not even my head, or stand up) without throwing up, even moving in bed in my sleep. Anything I swallowed - food, drink, mess, dribbles of toothpaste, bits of water from shower - bounced straight back up. I was admitted to hospital with 4+ ketones in my wee and it took between 48 hrs and 2 weeks(!) to rehydrate me.

CockBollocks Tue 05-Feb-13 13:22:41

I think if you found it so hard last time and you are unable to go through it again then you should not TTC.

I am really trying not to judge, however, I cannot comprehend how aborting a baby for HG is in anyway justifiable.

Isn't a mothers intinct to protect her child/ren above all else including herself?

I appreciate that being very sick would affect your other child which is why I think your only option is no more babies - sorry.

ChampyandtheWonderHorse Tue 05-Feb-13 13:25:20

I think I was afraid of never being ready tbh. I was scared, but I didn't see myself ever not being scared to do it, so I went for it anyway. Then wished I hadn't. But of course now he is here, it's grand. I just could never, ever go through that again.

CockBollocks Tue 05-Feb-13 13:39:23

FWIW I am pro-choice and have given my opnion as you have asked.

If you were a friend who was faced with this decision or had made this decision I would support you without prejudice, giving my thoughts if asked.

AmandaPayne Tue 05-Feb-13 13:39:56

I am massively, hugely, pro choice. It is a decision I don't think I could take for myself, but that is completely different.

I see that, during the course of the thread, you seem to have moved from aborting and trying again, to one last try. I think that that is rather different. I would totally support your legal right to have multiple terminations, but personally I would be uncomfortable with the idea of six or seven terminations by any woman for the same reason.

I have never had HG myself, but I once watched a documentary where a woman who was desperate, who had had fertility treatment and suffered HG in her second pregnancy nearly aborted. After watching what she went through, I can understand a little of your feelings, though only a little obviously.

I think you would need to do some serious thinking about how far you would go and how bad is bad enough to abort. Since HG is often (though obviously not always) a first trimester thing, you'd run the risk of a fairly traumatic late abortion, not an early medical one. Also, how would you deal with the uncertainty. E.g if you terminated at 10 weeks, would you be able to cope with the idea that it might have stopped at 12? i think that there are some very risky issues for your own mental health here, which you might want to work though with someone before deciding to TTC?

Anothercuppatea Tue 05-Feb-13 13:49:01

Can you afford a nanny to help with your otter child? Cleaner, gardener etc. Get as much help lined up and just see it as the price you need to pay to have another child. I would imagine going through an abortion would be upsetting and you may regret in future. I don't think it's a good idea to plan for it.

GetOrf Tue 05-Feb-13 14:20:51

I totally agree with MMelindot and cinnibar.

I think it is a very good thing OP that you have felt able to discuss this in a pragmatic way on here and that the discussion has helped you.

I agree that perhaps you need to really think carefully before you ttc, and that time taken may enable you to feel happier with the decisions you make, and may make the thought of HG less terrifying.

GetOrf Tue 05-Feb-13 14:22:29

And X posts but totally agree with greythorne and northerlurker - excellent posts.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 14:55:38

kindle I have tried...really I have...I have seen several counsellors privately (the NHS counselling I got fr PND was a total joke). But I have just ended up feeling like the person I used to be is just gone. At some point I have to be satisfied with being who I am now rather than keep striving after a possibly unattainable goal.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 15:01:25

The more recent posters saying that I shouldn't ttc if I can't stick the HG, I could understand that if it was more likely than not that I would suffer HG again, but the best stats on the thread for a second pregnancy say I have a 4:5 chance of being fine.

Should I really avoid ttc when there is an 80% chance I won't even have to think about aborting?

Is having an abortion really such a terrible thing that a 1:5 chance of having to think about doing it makes it not worth trying for a second baby?

Moknicker Tue 05-Feb-13 15:10:13

OP - havent read the whole thread but thought I would share my experience because I was in the same position as you. Conceived easily, debilitating HG with first pregnancy, considered abortion - the only reason i didnt do it was that i was too sick to do anything by myself. Wanted to miscarry/die etc. Know how you feel. After DD was born I woke up the next day and my first thought was not - ive got a lovely baby but I dont feel sick anymore - WOW.

Was approaching 40 so deceided to try for no2. Got pregnant quickly and HG hit at 6 weeks. However, it was better the second time for me as I was much much better prepared - both mentally and physically
- Got the medication (FWIW) right at the beginning
- I already knew the one thing i could sort of face which was miniscule quantities of ice cold lime juice
- I had a great nanny who could look after DD - this was particularly important - the smell of DD ( that milky smell) made me throw up. I would literally cover my nose and hold her for about 5 minutes.
- I was on maternity leave still with DD and not working

If you are going to ttc then you need to give yourself a good chance of success with HG as the chances are you will have it again. While I am pro-choice multiple abortions can be good for you both mentally or physically and the goal should be to try and avoid it.

I read a bit where you compared the abortions decision to someone who would abort if they had a Down's syndrome child. I think if you told someone with a Down's syndrome foetues that if they went through absolute hell for 9 months they would have a healthy baby - quite a few people would do it.

So if I were you, I would only ttc again once more and not more than that if:
- Mentally I was able to say this is my best shot
- I had help with DD and other aspects of running a house
- You dont have to work at least for the first 4 months ( i had to take sick leave for my first pregnancy)

Good luck OP. I know how you feel and how isolating it is.

I would NEVER go through this again.
-

Moknicker Tue 05-Feb-13 15:11:26

Sorry - wanted to add that you do have the out of an abortion but once I did that due to the HG I wouldnt ttc again.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 15:21:30

champy thanks for explaining about the difference between choosing eggs and choosing pregnancies. I do see where you are coming from.

As I said at some point I didn't think of the baby as a baby until it could survive without me. At some point in between weeks 23 and 24 it became a baby in my head.

Of course the HG might have been responsible in part for me thinking of it as an evil resource guzzling sick inducing parasite before that point. I actually hated the thought that this tiny bundle of cells was subverting my own body and had such a huge degree of control over me. It felt like being possessed. First I lost all ability to walk up steps, then it affected sleep, then I started with the endless puking (I think a particularly low point was when in hospital I managed to pull out the final dregs of my sympathy for the proto-baby and asked if all this vomiting and ketone producing was hurting it and the doctors all reassured me glibly that ohhhh no the baby is fine and always gets what it needs out of the arrangement. The illness is only affecting you) then we started in with the SPD.

I think I had expected pregnancy to feel like a collaboration with the baby. It would do it's bits and I would do mine. In fact it was a hostile take over that left me a discarded shell at the end.

<should have been a man>

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 15:30:29

mok yes I already decided I would not abort and try again. It makes no sense as the odds of HG for the 2nd attempt would have skyrocketed.

Obviously the case with genetic disorders is different as you are aborting due to the health of the child rather than the mother. But I am not sure how very much more the health of the child is worth than the health of the mother. Clearly peoples views on abortion vary from if the mother dies so be it as long as the child is given every possible chance to live, to if the mother changes their mind at term they should still have the right to abort.

I would suggest that aborting because the mother is in danger of long term mental health issues is not at the massively pro-choice end of the scale...but plenty on here disagree.

There is a whole swathe of people who would not have children at all if they had followed the rule of "don't ttc if there is any chance you might find you do not wish to continue the pregnancy".

Is it pro-life to prevent vast swathes of people from even attempting to have children? <might be confused about pro-life actually being in favour of life in general>

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 15:32:02

Must stop posting essays. I am so glad to not be having to think about this while talking to DH about having more kids. It's too complex to try include someone else's desires and needs in the mix.

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 15:41:08

I hope that this thread has got things straighter in your mind, before you talk to your DH

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 15:43:43

definitely! For one thing I know I am absolutely categorically not ready to contemplate ttc.

It will give me the confidence when we discuss it to know it isn't the right time for me even if it is for him and arguably for DD. although that makes me sad.

AmandaPayne Tue 05-Feb-13 15:47:33

Yes, but it is far easier for the time to be 'right' for a man in many ways. It is not his body which is affected. It is normally not his working life that is put on hold (if you are WOH) or his every day world that changes (for both WOH and SAH mothers).

Do try and be gentle on yourself. You are acting as a good and responsible mother by getting this stuff straight. You would be doing a potential baby no favours by rushing things.

ethelb Tue 05-Feb-13 15:51:56

I would suggest that aborting because the mother is in danger of long term mental health issues is not at the massively pro-choice end of the scale...but plenty on here disagree.

No it is not.That is the reason 98% of abortions are carried out in this country. Twas on Panorama last night.

givemeaname Tue 05-Feb-13 15:52:53

On the other hand if I felt I could conceive again almost immediately....well it is a case of choosing which of the many children I could have actually gets a chance.
Utterly disgusting attitude!!
Im lost for words (actually i am not lost for words, im just chosing not the write them because i would be surely get deleted!)

givemeaname Tue 05-Feb-13 16:01:51

I am very glad they thought the end product made up for process of getting it
Product??? its not a fucking product! its a child! a life! YOUR child.
You certainly dont come across very maternal, i would question why you want another child.

EasilyBored Tue 05-Feb-13 16:04:42

Oh do piss off givemeaname, try reading the whole thread before you burst a blood vessel spewing that amount of bile (quite amusing on a thread about HG...)

givemeaname Tue 05-Feb-13 16:18:57

Easilybored I have read the whole thread and still come to same conculsion.

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 16:44:50

givemeaname OP has concluded that those statements you are quoting are not the mindset she is going to proceed with in this horrid dilemma

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 05-Feb-13 16:47:33

Are the people on these threads who think HG is just quite bad sickness the same utter knobs who bleat stuff like that in real life?

You cannot just decide you have HG because you feel a bit sick or you have dreadful morning sickness.

A docter has to dx it and that dx is based on tangible medical tests,if you do not require actual medical treatment for it then you do not have it.

Normal or even bad morning sickness does not come with a risk of still birth or MC it does not Come with the risk of a ruptured esophagus or liver failure or coma or even death. It will not require you to be tube fed and it highly unlikely to cause you to end up in intensive care.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 05-Feb-13 16:49:45

*its not a fucking product! its a child! a life! YOUR child.
You certainly dont come across very maternal, i would question why you want another child.*

Oh do fuck off

AnyFucker Tue 05-Feb-13 16:52:54

HQ ...time to reconsider locking the thread yet ?

I don't know how stats are gathered. However Most of the people I know who had hg had it with subsequent pregnancies too. I had it with both my dds. I left a 5 year gap as couldn't consider going through it again for a long time. There were times when i felt so hideously ill that iI secretly hoped I'd miscarry (I find this hard to admit). Once pregnant you may feel that abortion is just not an option (I felt it wasn't)

I would like another child one day but I don't think I could go through hg again so I can't risk it.

MonthlyNeedsToTakeHerTime Tue 05-Feb-13 17:33:12

Read the whole post. op YANBU.

I think asking on here for advice is great, I have posted some difficult topics because I could never ever ask my neatest friend in real life.
Sounds like some posters don't know about HG. yes termination is a medical treatment for hg, something women used to die from.

I hope you get more chance to talk it over. I am one who would go into pregnancy terminating for downs, after a close relative suffered all her life. So I can see where you are going on that train of thought.

9 months is a help of a long time. Maybe we should try not eating for 9 months and see what frame of mind we are in before posting.
I think all the talk of "it took me years to conceive" "what about all the woman who can't conceive" is just bollocks. And all those saying adopt, do you know how small the chances of adopting are, let alone if you already have a child.

Hope you can have a good talk to your dh.

MmeLindor Tue 05-Feb-13 17:35:18

I agree, AF. The OP has benefited from the advice she has received so far. It would be better to lock this thread and she can start another in antenatal choices if she wants to discuss this without all the hyperbole.

KindleMum Tue 05-Feb-13 18:06:55

I'm very sorry that counselling hasn't helped you. I think it's awful that the HG is still controlling your life, I was luckier than that in that I put it straight behind me. In fact, I woke up from the EMCS thinking yay! I don't feel sick! Being able to keep a glass of water down was amazing. Out of curiosity, have your friends generally been "lucky" with pregnancy? Sometimes, that makes a difference to how we respond to things as it's only natural to compare ourselves to others. 2 of my closest friends can't have children and would love to, one is infertile and the other had a very botched delivery which almost killed her and resulted in an emergency hysterectomy. I know either of those would genuinely accept an HG pregnancy if it meant they could have children. Possibly being close to that has made me feel better about having had bad pregnancies.

There are at least 2 of us on this thread who found the second HG preg easier to handle mentally than the first - because we were not taken by surprise mainly I think. Unlike you, to me they've been my babies from the first moment I knew but with the first, I did feel that the baby hated me and was trying to kill me. I never had that feeling second time round. I don't think you're at all ready mentally to ttc but in the future if you are, then maybe you will also find it easier the second time.

I'm not sure if you feel better or worse when you hear from those of us who've been ok after, but if you need to continue this debate off the boards with people who've had it, feel free to message me.

LynetteScavo Tue 05-Feb-13 19:30:14

ethelb, that is the reason 98% of woman give (or are told to give by prefessionals) for wanting an abortion, because it is one of the criteria under which abortions can legally be performed.

StuntGirl Tue 05-Feb-13 20:10:29

Icbineg, I'm so glad you've found this thread helpful.

FWIW, I'm 100% pro-choice and would respect your decision to abort regardless of the reason, no strings or restrictions attached.

That said the further the thread went along the more it became apparent that you're not emotionally or mentally in the right place to conceive again at the moment given the risks. I'm so sorry you were affected so badly by pregnancy and so sorry counselling hasn't helped.

I hope you can discuss this openly with your husband and that he is understanding and supportive of the effect this has had and is still having on your life. I wish you all the best thanks

fridgepants Tue 05-Feb-13 20:47:56

I've had a termination, which was for medical reasons, although different from yours - got pregnant with an IUD in place and whilst taking tablets that are likely to cause birth defects. While I'd never wanted a child, I was surprised at how hard it was. I can only imagine how much harder it is if you're actively ttc. There was no element of choice to my decision, regardless of whether we could have happily had a child or not, but it was honestly the most difficult thing I've ever done. A lot of women in my office are pregnant just now - one sent round her three month scan and I realised I'd be doing mine at the same time, and I was surprised how upset it was. I still remember my due date - the GP will work it out when you get referred - and that date is always going to feel marked. I know not everyone feels the same and don't find it hard but what absolutely shocked me was how hard something which, in theory, I always thought would be the easy, simple choice was.

I admit I don't know what HG is really like, because I didn't get to find out. I can't compare the situations. I can well believe it's utterly horrible. However, you need to consider the possibility of a) the hormonal changes remaining for up to two months afterward b) that it might hit you as hard as a miscarriage does.

VicarInaTutu Tue 05-Feb-13 20:57:04

IC - im so glad you have some clarity and im sorry that some of the posts have been so vitriolic.

Please can i ask you to google something called "rewind" therapy - its for PTSD or trauma and works in one 20 min session. I had it for 8 years of neglect and abuse and in one session it took away the fear and emotional response to remembering that pain.
one session.
it really do honestly truly work - i was such a sceptic! if you want please feel free to pm me and i will give you the low down on how it works. I truly feel you would benefit from this to get you over your obvious trauma at what happened to you.
you sound very pragmatic and sensible - please heal before you go any further.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 21:02:14

s'okay really. I am allowed to say how I view pregnancy and conception and others are allowed to say what they think of that opinion. I'd say what I thought of theirs but there isn't really any point....

That's interesting about the abortion statistics.

On one visit to the hospital I was stuck on a ward with two near term teenagers discussing loudly how morning sickness is ust something you get on with. How it's horrible but you ust need to man up etc....

I think maybe I do feel shit about how it seems to have hit me harder than most. Some of the stories on here are worse than I experienced and yet people did it all again....

Ah well we are who we are.

ICBINEG Tue 05-Feb-13 21:03:33

vic I will look into that - thanks.

fridgepants Tue 05-Feb-13 21:06:23

Is that Panorama stat right? Admittedly I have existing mh issues which make having a baby risky for me and the child (the chance of puepertal psychosis is very high) so the GP who referred me and the clinic never asked me in detail, but I didn't get the impression that it was something they probed in depth.

Unless 'mental health problems' is a broader term than what's in the DSM-IV in this case. Which would mean the mental toll of HG would absolutely count.

fridgepants Tue 05-Feb-13 21:09:42

ICBINEG - my mother got pregnant with me accidentally - so accidentally that it was in the four-week period between coming off the pill and attending her sterilization appointment, because she thought that after ten years there was no way she could get pregnant. She had very severe morning sickness - whether it was HG I don't know, but she told me she was unable to get out of bed, never mind keep anything down. I was her last child, and while there are a number of reasons that meant she had no others (she was 35 when she had me which was considered very old then) I don't think that experience helped, and she eventually did get sterilized.

VicarInaTutu Tue 05-Feb-13 21:15:06

ic - ive linked how it works for you
here

really do look into it. i know my trauma was different to yours but it takes away that fear and that emotional response when you think of what happened - it was described to me like removing the colour from a picture.

you sound so deeply traumatised about what happened around your pg and your pnd.

im really surprised that more people on this thread didnt pick up on that and just waded in regardless.

AmandaPayne Tue 05-Feb-13 21:27:52

Oh ICBINEG. I really feel for you.

You cannot predict how you will react to things, and it's not about being tough. It's not one up-manship on who had it worst and got over it fastest.

A very minor example for me is a smear test (bear with me, there is an analogy in here somewhere). I hate them. Even thinking about it now makes me feel all wobbly. I haven't been for about 8 years blush. Internals in labour were the same. I feel like I am being sliced in two with cheese wire. Total, absolute agony. Worse than any other pain in my life. Other people say 'ooh, it's a bit uncomfortable'. I don't know whether I feel greater pain, but I obviously experience it differently. I know I am not a wuss, because I had a totally pain relief free second birth and I don't know why people make such a fuss about crowning grin.

What I am trying to say is different people experience different pains in different ways. There is no reason to suppose that one person's experience is the same as another's. Mental response is the same - why should your experience of getting over having HG be the same as another woman's? It's not about being tougher. It's about human being being very complex things.

discrete Tue 05-Feb-13 21:41:00

I am totally and completely pro life. I feel that what you choose to do with your body is for you to decide and no one else. I am in the 'mother should be allowed to terminate right up to term' camp.

But...I feel that the issue here runs much more deeply than whether or not you get HG.

To me it sounds like you were severely traumatised by the fact that pg put you in a position where you were vulnerable, needed help from other people and could not fend completely by yourself.

I felt very much the same way initially in my pg, although I did not have hg ('merely' horrendous ms, then pgp and spd). It was a huge wake-up call to the reality that human females when they have young are among the most vulnerable beings in the animal kingdom. Human childbearing is unbelievably taxing on the mother, and raising a child, particularly if they are sick in the early days, is very, very difficult without support.

If you are the kind of person who is used to being the one who helps, rather than the one who is helped, it can throw into question your whole personal identity.

The problem is that there are so many aspects of childbearing that can leave you in that state, even if you don't get hg. You may get really bad spd in late pg, when it's too late to have an abortion. Or you may develop a very high risk of early labour and have to spend large amounts of time in bedrest hoping that the baby stays in for just that bit longer to reduce the chance of severe damage. Or you may have a very, very premature baby that requires serious medical intervention and months of sitting in ICU hoping that they pull through. Or you may have a disabled child that requires large amounts of care day and night for years on end.

Unfortunately, the decision of whether or not to ttc has to include consideration of the effects of any of those possibilities. For me, the decision not to ttc no.3 was made when I realised that I would seriously consider terminating for abnormalities, even if they were compatible with life. The reason is that I did not feel that I could conceive a baby on a conditional basis. Otherwise, what would my attitude be if they developed something once they were born?

Sorry, I have written an essay blush. Could carry on, but will shut up and go away now. Just wanted to finish up by saying how much I respect that you are going through this thought process now, and really trying to examine your feelings rather than mindlessly blundering into something that could have severe repercussions on you and your family. And how calm and balanced you have remained despite some of the stuff spewed on here.

AmandaPayne Tue 05-Feb-13 22:11:29

I think you mean pro-choice Discrete Unless you are making a point about the language of 'pro life' being used by those who are anti-abortion. Great post though. I totally agree with what you say about how the vulnerability of pregnancy, birth (and early child rearing) can knock you sideways.

EasilyBored Tue 05-Feb-13 22:14:41

Just going to butt back in to tell Amanda please please please go for a smear test, talk to the nurse about the pain you experience, but please go and have one!

AmandaPayne Tue 05-Feb-13 22:19:10

I know, I know. I have recently moved and need to register with a GP so am going to organise seeing someone. I think someone new might make it easier to be upfront. Last time I tried to explain and they looked at my notes and said "well, you haven't had any problems in the past". This time I'm going to let go with the fully snotty snivel and see where it gets me. If I could just have gas and air whilst they did it I'd be ok...

I do think it's quite a good example of how something that can seem a little hurdle to lots of people can become insurmountable in your own mind though.

<hijack over. Sorry OP>

discrete Tue 05-Feb-13 22:43:27

oh yeah blush. sorry. Pro choice.

ahem...

differentnameforthis Tue 05-Feb-13 23:40:45

i think a lot of people posting have no idea of hg

Granted, I did not have HG, but I was throwing up the entire course of my first pregnancy & did have PE, so I do know what it is like to have that hanging over you. Would I have aborted dd2 if I got it again with her, no I wouldn't have, unless my life was in real danger. I took the choice to get pregnant & went it knowing what could happen.

You don't use a pregnancy symptom as an excuse to keep throwing away babies that "make" you sick.

StinkyWicket Wed 06-Feb-13 01:18:38

OP.

I posted earlier that I think it shows a really weird attitude to be considering it should you get HG again. If you think you wouldn't cope, IMO you shouldn't TTC.

I still stand by what I posted before, but I think your subsequent posts have made things a little clearer for me. Admittedly, I didn't enjoy per se either of my pregnancies, but I didn't have HG or any massive difficulties and didn't have PND either.

I think your post above 'I am very glad they thought the end product made up for process of getting it. But that isn't how I feel at all.' is very telling. I hope you don't mind me saying OP, but I just don't think that you're ready. I would consider abortion, for any condition, but the way you are presenting this as a foregone conclusion makes me think you have not considered the way an abortion/multiple abortions is going to affect you and your DH. Possibly as negatively as HG would. Your experience before is really clouding your judgement.

M0naLisa Wed 06-Feb-13 01:38:32

I suffered awful sickness in my 3rd pregnancy, it was an accident, I was hospitalized for a week. I aborted due to PND.

I was told I'd get HG again in any subsequent pregnancies I had.

I fell pregnant in march last year and ds3 is 10 weeks old on Friday. I didn't get sick half as bad as I did in last preg. So I think you are b u

MerryCouthyMows Wed 06-Feb-13 02:45:44

HG tends to be slightly better if you are having a DC with the same father the following time, but is likely to be worse than the time before if your second DC has a different father to your first DC.

You don't have to suffer - there ARE medications now. Metaclopramide helped me, and omneprazole was a wonder drug. Omneprazole was harder to get prescribed - only a consultant can prescribe it, but it works.

I though I would abort any pregnancies after my second DC, as I had spent 19 weeks out of 40 on a drip in hospital with DC2. I fell pregnant when DC2 was just 10 months old. I didn't terminate in the end.

I found it hard going, dealing with HG with a baby under 1yo, and just over, but I coped. Ex had to do most of the housework, as it was enough that I played with DD and DS1.

I then swore never again. 7 years later I had a fourth DC. And suffered with HG. But it wasn't as bad as with DD and DS1, as they had different dads, however, it wasn't as bad as it had been with DS2, because DS2 and DS3 share a dad.

What I'm saying is, don't look to termination as a way of stopping the sickness that you might find work for you.

MerryCouthyMows Wed 06-Feb-13 02:54:06

KateBeckett - have you ever suffered from HG? It's nothing like 'a bit of pregnancy sickness'.

By 39 weeks with DS1, I was literally in hysterics begging the consultant to induce me and was actually ready to kill myself if he refused. And I'm NOT like that at all.

Your brain and body are so depleted of nutrients, as the tiny amount you do keep down goes towards the baby, leaving you malnourished, that your brain function is impaired because you are basically in starvation mode.

I LOST 3 stone when I was pregnant with DS1. And I was only 8 1/2 stone to start with. By the time I delivered, on my due date, I weighed just 5 1/2 stone.

Even when they were tube feeding me, I was vomiting everything they were putting into me.

Imagine the worst case of food poisoning or stomach bug or gastritis you have ever had, and then multiply the exhaustion by two as you are trying to grow a healthy baby, and then feel like that for 9 months. That pretty much sums up HG.

NOT "a bit of pregnancy sickness".

DS1 was a good weight - he was 7lb7oz, but he was STILL malnourished at that size, and had to spend time in SCBU and had jaundice for nearly 3 weeks because of it.

MerryCouthyMows Wed 06-Feb-13 03:08:46

With DS1, the reason I was being tube fed through a tube down my nose was because I had vomited so often (30-50 times a day, and one memorable day I vomited 100+ times before passing out in the street as I was trying to GET to the hospital) that I had BURNT AWAY part of the lining of my throat and was pouring with blood every time I vomited.

For everyone saying they wouldn't consider termination for HG, there are different levels of HG, just as one person with CP can be more physically impaired than another.

If the OP's previous experience of HG was like my second, then I can understand it.

I was still vomiting into a bowl the whole way through my labour, with every push, the WHOLE 9 months.

If I'm honest, when I found out I was pg with DC3 so soon after I had had DS1, I actually booked a termination. I went to the appointment but couldn't go through with it.

I hasten to add, we hasn't been actively trying to conceive - in fact quite the opposite, I had a Mirena coil in when I fell pg with DC3. (I was too young to be sterilised on the NHS).

I love DS2 to bits, and the fact that i had had a termination booked does not alter the love i have for him now.

If it helps the OP - none of my other pregnancies were as severe with the HG. DS1 was by far the worst, it was like a living hell.

MammaTJ Wed 06-Feb-13 05:23:39

I had three miscarriages before having my DD1. With the earlier pregnancies I had not felt sick at all, with her I did, terribly.

I mentioned it to the doctor and he said 'Well that means the hormones are in place to keep the baby'.

Every time I vommed, I thought 'This one is staying'. As someone who has had a MC yourself, you should try to think of sickness as a positive thing in this way. Not making light of it at all but that is the positive side of it.

changeforthebetter Wed 06-Feb-13 06:51:47

Vehemently pro choice here but also YABU.

pigletmania Wed 06-Feb-13 07:49:18

I just wouldn't. You will probably get HG again the risk is likely. I could not keep ttc tan ending the life when hg sets in. Either your in it for the long haul or just stick to one

pigletmania Wed 06-Feb-13 07:50:54

I did mammaj I had miscarriages Wth them I had no morning sickness. With ds and dd I did, I saw vomitting though horrid to be a postive sign

Beveridge Wed 06-Feb-13 08:35:42

FFS, severe HG is not just a bit of nausea and spewing(referring to recent posters), one of my colleagues had it first pg (not subsequent) and was hospitalised for weeks, she had a horrific time of it.

Other posters have pointed out the long term health problems for the mother that can resultand the impact on the baby in the womb.

I can only speak as a 'ordinary' ms sufferer i.e. the 'continual hangover' but very little actual spewing and I can say that the cumulative effect of that was eye opening for me (who is never ill usually)- I was really struggling with it by the time it passed (week 16 with last pg)and it was really getting me down, and of course the guilt that I wasn't able to feel excited about a much wanted second baby because I had only found out as a result of the nausea didn't help either.

And that was NOTHING compared to HG. I wonder if those people who criticise the OP for daring to explore her thoughts and feelings would be so quick to dismiss her personal experiences of say labour and how that made her feel?

OP, agree with other posters that you should be seeking expert medical advice and counselling before embarking on ttc, as this isnot something you should be trying to troubleshoot on your own.

whois Wed 06-Feb-13 08:44:25

I don't know OP, it must be hard wanting another baby but knowing being pg could make you extremely ill again.

The 'just sickness' and 'cope with all pg entails' posts aren't really applicable, the OP isn't talking about being a bit uncomfortable. HG can be extremely dangerous, a colleague spent weeks and weeks in hospital on a drip, and weeks and weeks unable to move at home with her husband doing everything for her. And she's no wimps! I can't imagine what would have happened with a toddler in the mix. HG is a serious risk to the mum!

Whatever you decide, good luck.

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 09:47:59

hookay....so change is vehemently pro-choice unless someone wants to actually use that choice at which point they are unreasonable....

piglet thinks it's likely I will get it again even the stats are only 1:5 - they must know more about my personal medical history then I do! Please PM me the genetic results you have on me....don't make me invoke data protection...

amanda I fecking hate the smear too. I had to have one in the few months after giving birth and I just cried uncontrollably all the way through. I lost about a week in tears before and after. I wonder if your GP could prescribe you something to get you through it? Morphine is always good for a laugh IMHO. I also was reluctant in the extreme to let them do any checking internally during labour but luckily my local hospital is home to the very smallest midwife in the know universe....with her tiny tiny tiny hands....and with only a tonne of gas and air we got through it...just.

vic thanks for the link!

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 09:52:51

Oh and merry holy shit! I didn't suffer anywhere near that badly. Part of what worries me is that I know I didn't cope and yet it could have been so much worse.

But why on Earth didn't they induce you at 37 weeks like the thousands of others with far more minor health concerns than vomiting blood dozens of times a day?

It boggles my mind how little concern there is for the mothers physical and mental wellbeing during pregnancy. I think it is a stark reminded that we have not moved as far as we like to think from the perception of women as mobile incubators for their husbands offspring.

pigletmania Wed 06-Feb-13 09:54:32

Eh ice being. I am merely echoing what others have said, as you have hg the likelihood is increased if you fall pregnant again. Google it, or as your GP. Even if you do fall pregnant and have HG and decide to abort when are you going to stop and call it a day! IMO you can't keep terminating pregnancies over and over again

KindleMum Wed 06-Feb-13 10:10:24

I think the concern for the mother can vary a lot from doc to doc. And there are still a lot of health professionals who sadly don't understand HG. And there are unfortunately a lot of midwives who routinely treat all mothers as moaning wussy idiots. I particularly hate the attitude of "pregnancy is natural, just get on with it" - let's face it, if you leave it to Mother Nature then actually a large percentage of women die from pregnancy. Medical intervention is a wonderful and often lifesaving thing for complications such as HG. I felt that my doc had my welfare fully in mind. He was always very clear that the only acceptable outcome at the end of the pregnancy was a healthy mother AND child and when things got particularly bad at one stage, he was clear to me that if he had to make decisions between us, then I'd be his priority - I was a bit taken aback when he said that as at the time I hadn't realised it had got that dangerous. He was also instrumental in getting my oesophagus repaired afterwards, he didn't just leave me to the after-effects of HG.

I was also told DS would be delivered at 36 weeks, though he actually arrived at 35. DD was planned for 36-38 weeks and was delivered at just short of 38 weeks when they finally decided I'd had enough.

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 10:10:32

piglet if you had RTFT you would realise I have already acknowledged it would be one more go and if the HG came back that would be it. Once you have had it twice the probability that you will always have it becomes really high.

I don't need to google the stats...you can tell that because I wrote them in my post replying to you.

13Iggis Wed 06-Feb-13 10:11:28

I am not comparing my situation to yours, OP, but just sharing an experience of ttc afterr a difficult pregnancy. Had a crap pg with ds1, ms (just the regular variety) until 30 weeks, constant fatigue, thyroid problems, carpal tunnel syndrome, and just very depressed. I didn't want to try for another child unless this was somehow "sorted", and sought treatment for thyroid etc. But there were no guarantees that next time would be different. When I had ds2 I felt much the same unfortunately, with the addition of PGP, but I had a much more pragmatic attitude to it and knew the minute I delivered I'd start to feel better. What made the difference were the multiple mcs I had in between. My desperation for another child overcame my fear and anxiety about the physical symptoms I was having. Now I have ds2 I know it was all worth it - but still glad I left a few years before ttc, and definitely stopping at 2!

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 10:21:20

kindle That sounds more like it! I guess it is true that you must get the support you need in place sooner rather than later. I have a dull and boring heart condition that meant I always felt at least some of the doctors were there for me and not just for the baby. But the midwives attitudes were indeed pretty wft you are just pregnant. Except for the midwife that had had HG. She was fecking awesome...and I would happily have taken her home with me from hospital. Full of actually useful advice (when I had reached the 'mention ginger and die' point) and genuine sympathy. She also warned me that there will be smells that continue to affect me..and it's true. Every so often I walk past someone in the street and start retching. Their crime is to use the specific wrong brand of soap....

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 10:24:29

13Ig yes...I must remember that I will be older next time and may not conceive so easily and may miscarry more often too.

Maybe I would even feel better able to cope than last time if it happened again...but I feel I need to plan for and acknowledge the possibility that I will react worse.

KindleMum Wed 06-Feb-13 10:25:03

I'm wondering whether fear of the next pregnancy is the reason you can't shift the depression? Maybe you will only feel better once you can say to yourself that you are definitely not doing it again? Maybe it's less the past that's bothering you, than the horror of doing it again and feeling that you might be pushed to by OH/family/etc. Your fears and concerns do sound broader than the HG? How much does your OH want a second child?

I wanted 3 kids but there was no way I could do HG a third time. I got sterilised because I also got pregnant first month ttc both times and I didn't want to risk a third. It's not that uncommon to change your expectations when you turn out to do pregnancy harder than you thought you would. It's not wussy to decide you can't or won't do it. And you sound like you're beating yourself up a bit over finding HG harder than you think other people did. Who cares? You're not at fault here, it's not a test. We all react differently to things and to pain etc. Maybe it's just the way we're made, maybe it's a learned response from our life experiences, maybe it's down to the way we're treated. Whatever it is, you haven't "failed" and sometimes you sound like you think you have.

13Iggis Wed 06-Feb-13 10:58:17

Hi ICBINEG - wasn't implying you should worry about mc by the way, just saying that they changed my perspective entirely on what I could cope with in a pregnancy.

KindleMum Wed 06-Feb-13 11:20:53

There are a lot of midwives that really should know better! I had one who said at every single appointment ( and I was on weekly appointments all through, though I didn't get her every single week, thank goodness) " oh, you'll have finished morning sickness now, I'll cross that off" Er no , still on the drugs, still being sick 20-60+ times a day, 23 hours a day, still losing weight. " but you're 20/24/27/31 etc weeks, you can't still be sick (glaring at me as if I'm doing it deliberately!).

Given how much you can learn about HG on the internet in 10 minutes, I find it disturbing that you can deal with supposed pregnancy specialists who don't seem to have heard of it.

I was told I needed a blood transfusion at about 30 weeks I think , probably due to the amount of blood vomited over a period of weeks, I was very anaemic and my clotting factors had gone through the floor. When the doc told the midwife this, the stupid fool told me that I should really try harder not to be sick as nowadays they try to avoid transfusions for anaemia in pregnancy and it wasn't good for me or the baby. I didn't even have the strength to tell her what I thought of her! Thank heaven that my doc was so supportive.

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 11:38:40

Kindle OMG! I knew I was doing something wrong! I should have been trying NOT to be sick, not trying TO be sick <face palm>

It is strange really that doctors have moved their position from one in which they posed as godlike repositories of all knowledge to one where they are happy to google during a consultation. I very strongly feel that midwives should have the same imperative to keep up to date with current best practise that doctors do.

I have caught myself thinking that it would be great to have this hanging decision over having more kids removed. Like getting in an accident such that I can't or moving to a country with a 1 child policy.

The big problem is having spent so very much time with a picture of the future that now seems incompatible with reality. I do spend a huge amount of time in thought loops concerning how the hell I can have my 2.4 children when I can't do this all again.... When does your brain wake up and acknowledge that you don't have to have 2.4 kids even if you always thought you would?

And what of my DH who went from 'I never what kids' to 'we have to have at least 3 so they each have someone else to play with if they fall out with another one' over night....gah.

Ig no worries...it is always worth bearing in mind that things other than the thing your are mostly worried about may also go wrong.

pigletmania Wed 06-Feb-13 12:44:41

Sorry ice just read the initial op and did not hav time to go through 19 pages of posts whilst trying to get ds 1 year not to pull down my table cloth. It's up to you of course

AmandaPayne Wed 06-Feb-13 13:38:25

Can I just chip in here to remind people that you can personalise your MN to highlight posts by the OP in a nice bright colour? You don't actually have to read all the posts on a thread like this to keep up to date with what the OP is saying. You can also set it to display as a single screen, and just scroll down until you spot your chosen colour (I have the OP in green).

ICBINEG - I think what you describe is very common. So many of us have a picture growing up of what our family will be. It can be very difficult to make peace with something else. You see it in everything from gender disappointment, to secondary infertility, to my own situation (where I have two lovely kids and just am not sure if I can cope with and give enough time and attention to more, even though I always pictured three), to medical complications with having more. They are very different situations, but they share a need to move on from a long held picture of our lives.

You may decide to go ahead with the risk of HG, you may decide to go ahead but sure you will terminate if HG sets in, or you may reconcile yourself to a different family from the one you pictured. All of those are legitimate decisions and ones which carry their own issues and emotions. Wishing you all the best in making the decision, and I hope you do get some help doing it.

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 06-Feb-13 13:55:56

kindle

I remember being led on the floor of a loo in the hospital with foam and blood coming out of my nose retching and unable to stop with a midwife stood over me saying " if you carry on like this I won't be able to admit you,so stop it"

Less than 2 hours later I was in a coma.

I had hoped things had got better in most hospitals because that happened a long time ago, was yours recent?

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 14:57:57

Oh god sock that sounds terrifying!

My finest moment was the much less dramatic discovery that even if you have given up eating weeks ago and drunk nothing for 36 hours and even when the puking has long since been reduced to dry heaves, you can still miraculous produce 500 mls with carrots when someone botches putting the cannula in, giving you a half arm sized bruise.

ICBINEG Wed 06-Feb-13 14:58:28

I blame the adrenaline....

AmandaPayne Wed 06-Feb-13 15:05:27

You know the answer to that don't you ICBINEG? The 'diced carrots' miraculous present in vomit are often stomach lining. <boak> No idea how there was 500mls though!

JamieandtheMagicTorch Wed 06-Feb-13 17:19:41

HG sounds horrific. I am amazed that anyone has the gumption/ drive/ whatever to go through that again. I don't think I could.

I for one don't need convincing of the seriousness of it.

KindleMum Wed 06-Feb-13 18:12:27

Sock - that's truly awful! It basically translates to you're too sick to admit, get better before we'll deal with you. Why do midwives feel that's a reasonable way to treat an ill person? After 2 pregnancies, I have to say I don't regard midwives with anywhere near the same respect I hold for nurses. Why is it that the mantra of "pregnancy is not an illness" gets turned on its head to being "you can't be ill because you're pregnant"? Standard pregnancy is not an illness but many complications can make it so. Mine were 5 and 2 years ago. In fact, pregnancy 1 is 5 years old today. In a few hours time I'll be celebrating the point I woke up from the EMCS and didn't feel sick. It was a truly wonderful moment.

Amanda, is it really stomach lining? Yeuch.

ICBINEG, I think you do have to accept that at some point you probably have to decide whether or not you can face the risk of HG again. I knew I could do a second pregnancy and left the third as a "to be decided later". I only got to 14 weeks in the second one before I agreed sterilisation with the doc, who was more than happy to agree it was to be done during the CS. I had hoped I could have three, but I knew 100% that 2 was the most I could manage. I was OK with that because I knew that it was the best and only decision for me and mine. There was also no way DH would have agreed to a third. He'd originally wanted three also, but pregnancy 1 horrified him and he took longer to come to terms with the idea of trying again than I did. He only agreed because the stats said it probably wouldn't be like the first.

Did you hide the worst of the pregnancy from your OH? I'm interested that you seem to be saying that he's ok with you doing it again - has he thought it through and come to that conclusion or is he unaware of how rough this has been for you? In terms of coping with the change of your pictured future - I have twinges of regret sometimes for the third child I can't have but they're tolerable and not too frequent because I know it just wasn't to be. During the second preg, I entirely knew that I couldn't do it a third time even if that pregnancy went wrong and I ended up with just one child. That stressed me out quite a lot at the time as I was more scared than average of a miscarriage because I knew it had to be my last pregnancy. On the other hand, maybe knowing that I would not be doing it again helped me cope second time around, who knows? If you conclude you can't do it again, I think you'd come to terms with it because you know your reasons. Equally, if you do it again, you may well find it easier than last time because you know what you're getting into rather than being side-swiped by it. I'd share my fears with my husband if I was you though. Assuming you have a good relationship, he would want to know these things and he needs to understand that if you get HG a second time, there would not be a third. If he's talking about more kids, he should know about your (perfectly valid) concerns about a second pregnancy.

I haven't read all the thread as I saw some of the comments. Just wanted to say I know exactly how you feel.

I really want 2 DCs, but I spent the majority of the pregnancy in hospital due to HG and almost committed suicide over it. By the end I'd lost 2 stone, my arms were black and blue from top to bottom, even my legs had been canulated, they'd induced me a week early and I almost had to have the drip put into my neck as they couldn't get any more canulas into me. It was the most horrific experience.

So any fuckwit who wants to act like HG is no big deal and not a good reason to abort can come over here and have me kick the shit out of them.

It was beyond terrifying.

But at the same time my desire for a DC2 is massive. I don't know what to do.

DonderandBlitzen Wed 06-Feb-13 18:32:53

Not read the 20 pages of replies, but although I'm not one to condemn people for having an abortion if they dont want to have a baby, I would be concerned that you might find it hard to cope with your abortion further down the line. I used to share a house with a psychotherapist and she said some of the clients she saw were really affected by abortions they had years ago. If I were you I'd ttc and then hope that if the HG struck again, then hospitalisation if need be would make it safe and anti sickness drugs would make it bearable.

AmandaPayne Wed 06-Feb-13 18:35:43

Kindle - the BBC claims so here.

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 07-Feb-13 01:22:38

It was dreadful, and your right the pregnancy is not a illness thing often gets twisted round, I will say tho ever since that occasion I have been treated very well by every other midwife i have had and with every other pregnancy, my last pregnancy they started treating me the day I found out, I saw my gp who sent me straight to the hospital to see something called the early pregnancy unit and I got a consultant straight away who was great HG was there area of interest and I cannot fault them, I still got it it still wasn't nice but they were on it.

None of this go away come back in a week dear its just ms that had happened before.

Its why I get so antsy about people describing it as just ms and not getting there head around the fact that its not.

Lyrasilvertongued Thu 07-Feb-13 01:37:09

this must be such a difficult decision to make. I only had ms, bad enough to be off work but nothing close to HG, and that combined with a pretty awful labour has made me think I might not be able to bring myself to ttc another child. This is hard as I always thought I'd like two or more dcs - but I'm not invested in this as I know others are, and I don't dream of a big family like some do. I hope you get the support you need to help make the decision, which is one for you and your dh to make really.

PessaryPam Thu 07-Feb-13 04:02:35

If I were you I would not be TTC until I was fully recovered from the PND. You still sound like you are in a state. Shame surrogacy isn't widely available.

ICBINEG Thu 07-Feb-13 09:47:14

spoke to DH about it last night...he said he loves the daughter he has so much that he wouldn't want to risk her happiness by trying for another unless we were both very certain we could cope with it.

I think I may actually be starting to come to terms with only having one child. I certainly am coming to terms with the idea that having a mentally stable mum might be more important than having the 'perfect' age gap.

AmandaPayne Thu 07-Feb-13 09:56:00

So pleased you had a positive chat. Your Dh is absolutely right. Although i would add not risking your health and happiness too.

You seem to have moved quite a long way in just this thread in terms of thinking about yourself and not what you feel you ought to do- ie somehow provide a sibling with a perfect age gap despite not being ready. Good luck on whatever you decide to do.

blondecat Thu 07-Feb-13 10:18:35

Research It. Think it through. Discuss it with your DH. And a consultant.

Don't assume TTC will always be easy. Secondary infertility is a byatch
As are strings of unexplained MCs after 1 or 2 continuing pregnancies.

There are so many factors in play here that we on mm can't know.

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