To not give a damn if the Labour Party...

(356 Posts)
slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:42:56

Give away free flat screen TV's and a £500 Next gift card to everyone claiming benefits.

I don't care if they say 'fuck it, free immigration to everyone, we'll let anyone in'

I don't care if they spend 4 jillion pounds on a statue of Ghandi.

Just as long as the Conservatives don't get in again. They are fucking evil, aren't they?

bastards. Fucking bastards

I don't want to live in a country like this anymore sad

Panzee Thu 31-Jan-13 18:44:21

Didn't the Tories suggest a contribution of 10%? Unless they couldn't afford it? Seems fair to me.

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:44:23

Btw, can I just say I'm not saying Benefits Claimants are bad; I personally think cuts have gone too far. I'm just taking inspiration from Daily Mail bile spewing.

Before someone accuses me of it smile

dreamingofsun Thu 31-Jan-13 18:44:47

oh grow up. labour have left this country's economic affairs in a right mess. you can't go living beyond your means indeffinately. they are not even democratic.

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:45:11

It's not just that panzee

It just feels like they are taking from the poorest all the time.

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:45:54

Labour? It wasn't just Labour. In case you hadn't noticed, not many countries escaped the economic crisis hmm

Panzee Thu 31-Jan-13 18:47:37

But Labour spent all the money in the boom time and didn't leave anything for the lean years which always happens. Very irresponsible. Seven fat cows etc...

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 18:47:48

Yeah, the global economic crisis was Labour's fault, totally. Good economics. We've done better than shitloads of countries have.

I'd vote Labour if a cheese sandwich stood for election and I wouldn't vote Tory with a gun to my head.

dreamingofsun Thu 31-Jan-13 18:48:31

conservatives have increase the amount that income tax kicks in to 10k is it? And if you are a higher earner the 40% income tax now kicks in earlier. No child benefit if you earn more than 50k. how does this help the rich and not the poor?

if you are a SAHM you now will get a better pension.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 18:48:39

Panzee do you know much about economics?

I admit Gordon Brown made a massive fuck-up when he sold the gold though.

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 18:49:06

Yes dreaming because a) the Tories are doing a wonderful job and b) the Tories were so vocal about spending when in opposition hmm

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:50:33

Tbh I did used to be a bit 'meh' about politics. Never really had financial troubles or needed benefits... But you come on here and you see people struggling so much under these cuts, especially the disability benefits cuts...

It's so, so wrong. And I just know I can't be alone in thinking 'I will never vote Conservative. Ever'.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:50:33

The reason I won't vote Tory is that regardless of that tired old argument of who caused the problems we're in at the moment, they are doing nothing to redress the inequality between the poorest and the richest. IMO the richest should be bearing pretty much the entire burden of paying off the debt we have.. asking people who have nothing to give up even more just doesn't even make much financial sense, regardless of the ethics of it.

dreamingofsun Thu 31-Jan-13 18:50:44

lets face it, even if more people voted tory at the next election labour would get in because they have rigged the electral boundaries.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 18:51:34

So, you think it fairer that those already paying high council tax should pay more so that those who already get absolutely everything for free, should continue to do so?

I'd vote for a pile of steaming dogshit before that nasally challenged champagne socialist twat and his wealthy hypocritical chums.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:51:58

slatternly I don't know how old you are, I'm old enough to remember the last time they were in power and I vowed then to never ever vote Conservative.

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:53:02

skittish I don't think benefits claimants get 'absolutely everything for free'. No. And I think a number of people on here will challenge you on that.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:53:26

dreaming, how have they rigged the electoral boundaries? Surely if they're not in government they can't change anything?

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 18:54:23

Headfairy , did you miss the bit where the Govt. cut child benefit for the better off or does that simply not fit with your , " The rich get richer and the poor get poorer " tired old bullshitrhetoric?

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:54:51

headfairy I'm 25 and was only old enough to vote in the last election. I don't remember Margret Thatcher. I voted Lib Dem but only because they seemed the most moderate. I remember coming on here and eyerolling a bit at all the posters being really worried about them getting back in.

I get it now.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:55:17

skittish In my admittedly limited experience of living on benefits, people in receipt of (non working) benefits do so because they have nothing, no other income. So if they didn't get as you put it absolutely everything for free, they'd have absolutely nothing.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 18:55:29

Slatternly, what ,precisely, do benefit claimants NOT get for free then? confused

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:56:03

skittish yes but 2 parents on £99,000 between them still get CB. So it's not really working, is it? You're telling me they 'just didnt notice it'? That massive error?

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 18:56:36

Instead Headfairy, many of them live a lifestyle that many working full time can only dream of.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:57:34

skittish erm, actually households where two earners are getting £45k a year each (ie £90k household income) still get it, but households with one income of £60k don't get it... that's hardly really tackling the issue is it? One poorly thought through pointless cut, but then that's the sort of tired old bullshit policy the Tories would bring out isn't it?

Bowlersarm Thu 31-Jan-13 18:58:37

Sorry, OP, I don't agree. I didn't vote in the last election as I was undecided. I'll be voting Tory in the next election. I think they're doing a pretty decent job in terrible national and international economic times

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 18:59:10

I agree Headfairy.

But I'm still bloody relieved they are in power .

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 18:59:37

skittish you're right. You know? When people become jobless, fuck them. Let them go on the streets, or seek refuge in a shelter at night. Let them starve.

It's not a lot they get. For the small number of people 'scrounging' there are thousands who have to scrape by.

My friend is in receipt of benefits because her partner works at Sainsburys petrol station and she stays home with her DD. it's to top them up. Anything they get taken off them is a huge blow.

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:27

Add message | Report | Message poster Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 18:56:36
Instead Headfairy, many of them live a lifestyle that many working full time can only dream of.

Yes dear, of course they do. <eyeroll>

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:35

Oh yeah skittish cos a life on benefits is really luxurious hmm

slatternly ah, yes. It wasn't pretty back in the 80s. I was living in Leeds at the time and the devastation of the north was pretty ugly. But everyone was so overjoyed when there were lots of public sector jobs created in a bid to revitalise the north - oh yes, sorry all those are gone now too.

ConferencePear Thu 31-Jan-13 19:01:12

Amazingly what repetition will do isn't it ?
The Tories have said that we are in an economic mess because of Gordon Brown/the Labour Party so often that people believe it. I suppose he/they must be responsible for the crisis in the USA, Greece, Portugal and France among others.
Or was it the cheating bankers ? It's good most people believe them though otherwise they would be complaining about the way the poor are being made to pay.

Hobbitation Thu 31-Jan-13 19:01:14

Skittish that change affects the middle, not the top 1% such as bankers who caused the economic problems and all their fat cat chums.

The point is not that Labour are dazzlingly brilliant but that they are the lesser of several evils.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 19:03:29

Slatternly, maybe your friend should think about taking a job and being a two parent working family like millions of others rather than choosing to take state handouts?

Since when did not choosing not to work and living off the rest of us who do become an acceptablel way to live?

Meglet Thu 31-Jan-13 19:04:57

dreamingofsun I pay £10 less tax these days, FWIW I earn £9k. But I pay approx £70 more in childcare fees a month as the Condems changed the childcare tax credit thresholds. We'll lose even more when they charge for the CSA.

So poor and much worse off since they came into power.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 19:05:23

Slatternly, it is an acknowledged fact that some families are better off choosing not to work. This is precisely what this Govt is driven to change . Many, many low skilled people ARE better off not working - you aren't really disputing that fact are you? shock.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:06:43

Yeah, you're right. Evil fucking bastards expecting people to pay for the services they want to be have available!?

You'd think the nasty bastards would just conjure the money out of thin air to pay for social services, refuse collections and facilities, maintenance of public areas, the police, the fire service, schools, SEN support, wouldn't you?



HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:06:55

skittish Your assumption relies on there actually being jobs for Slatternly's friend... that's why I understand that the Tories aren't actually evil, just really really really thick. Seriously how can you trot out the old shit about getting off your bike and getting a job without actually creating the conditions that provide those jobs? Have any of these people actually read any economics books? What did they do at university apart from trashing pubs and hunting small animals?

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 19:07:09

So now you're saying that only better off people should have children?

Am I more deserving of my DS because I have never claimed benefits and both DH and I work ft?

Is that what you're saying?

Procrastinating Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:07

I'm with you OP.

Anyone notice that while the poorest will be paying (with what??) council tax, spending on 'defence' will be going up. That is not the world I want to live in.

Every time I hear that crap about Gordon Brown spending all the money I do an involuntary horrible face, it is starting to hurt now. Did Gordon Brown do over the rest of the world too? It is just not LOGICAL is it?

I'm old enough to remember the last time the Tories were in and I think this is actually worse.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:36

Headfairy, isn't odd that thousands upon thousands of people can come here and find work easily but thousands of those who are born and bred here can't? confused

IfNotNowThenWhen Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:36

The number of people who "choose" not to work is actually quite small You can get this information from the DWP website.
And not every family HAS two parents. So one parent working full time usually still needs state help to cover extortionate rents etc.

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:56

clouds what are these people going to pay with?

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:09:17

Also, the low pay culture in this country has created the situation that many people earn less than the childcare they require to enable them to work costs... perhaps to satisfy Iain Duncan Smith they should work at a loss?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Thu 31-Jan-13 19:11:04

How long have the Tories been in now? And how many more dips have there been in the recession?

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:11:05

skittish you see, there you go believing the Daily Mail again. Thousands and thousands of people have not come here and taken our jobs. Fact. There are quite a few unemployed Polish people here you know.

IfNotNowThenWhen Thu 31-Jan-13 19:11:25

No clouds and trees, I would expect the government to make companies like Vodaphone to PAY the vast amounts they owe in tax to pay for schools and hospitals, rather than punish those who are already struggling.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 19:11:30

Godwins Law Godwin's Law Slatternly - yes, they should all be sterilised and then thrown in workhouses! That;s EXACTLY what I think.

FFS. How about people actually set up home, get in a stable relationship and get jobs before having ids and expecting the rest of us to put food in their mouths?

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 19:13:10

Well skittish, I had to ask seeing as you are coming out with such Daily Mail cliches wink

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:13:55

I expect them to make companies pay tax they legally owe as well. But not instead of the individuals who actually use the services. As well as.

IfNotNowThenWhen Thu 31-Jan-13 19:16:08

I really hope that all of the people who spout shite about " skivers" and "single mothers" and "immigrants" get made redundant. See how comfy life is on the other side of the fence.
You people are playing into the hands of a government of millionaires who are systematically hell bent on destroying this country, piece by piece-the NHS, the welfare state which has pulled millions out of poverty in the last 50 years, the smart kids from poor families who will no longer be able to become doctors or engineers.
I can count 4 masters degrees in my working class family. How many working class families will be able to say that in 20 years?

slatternlymother Thu 31-Jan-13 19:16:34

clouds I do see where you're coming from. Honestly, I do. And to some extent I agree; you should pay for what you use.

But what use is it to make people pay what they simply cannot afford? I don't know what the solution is; but by doing this, there is no gain in asking people to give that which they don't have.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:18:20

skittish do you actually understand the paths people travel to living on benefits? Do you seriously think there are millions of people in this country who choose to have babies when they are penniless? There are probably a small group of them yes... but by no means millions of them draining our society. So as a result the folk who have got there through no fault of their own, say as a result of bereavement, redundancy or contraceptive failure are made to suffer because of a couple of thousand people who feature on the Daily Mail front pages?

JuliaScurr Thu 31-Jan-13 19:18:34

We live on benefits and dp's p/t job. If he earns more than £110 (?) p/w he loses all his carer's allowance £58p/w.
Of course, the free car (ha!) free parking free school meals and bus pass for dd and the 68" plasma screen TV are lovely, but really I sometimes wonder if I would have been better off with my f/t job, p/t job and voluntary job that I paid Nat Insurance on for years before I fecklessly developed MS.
<whispers "Bank bail out">

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:23:02

Because the way I see it is, when it comes to council tax, there are two options. We either make all service users contribute, or we lose the services. It's that simple.

I don't want to lose any of the essential services that are provided by my council, services that I benefit from every singer day of my existence, as does pretty much everyone else. So yes, I would prefer to make people pay. If that means a few people struggle instead of having an entire community suffer, then so be it. Especially when the majority if the community are already paying an expensive council tax bill. Why should they lose essential services they rely on and pay for, because of a minority of people?

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 19:29:08

Ifnot - one reason why so many working class kids became GPO's is because of grammar schools which Labour abolished.

scaevola Thu 31-Jan-13 19:29:21

"if you are a SAHM you now will get a better pension"

Um, no. HRP and its successors have been around since the late 1970s and a particular bit of rhetoric showed an incredible level of ignorance of the importance of the NI credit element of CB.

That said, those who say that Labour didn't leave the most godawful mess (because of global factors) also must absolve the Coalition, for the Eurozone and ongoing US crises were not of their making either.

Skittish Thu 31-Jan-13 19:29:32


sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 19:32:37

They are all a load of rubbish labour tory etc etc , I reckon we need a political party totally made up of women no bloody fellas in it at all and no bloody toffs or chavs either just normal reasonable women. We'd soon get this country back on it's feet.

Nancy66 Thu 31-Jan-13 19:32:54

I think council tax, like income tax, should be deducted at source.

In some boroughs there is such a high per centage of non payers that pursuing them will cost more than it will reap in payment. So the easiest way of bridging the shortfall is to slap the charges on those who already pay.

ConferencePear Thu 31-Jan-13 19:34:32

Skittish - it is a matter of historical fact that when Thatcher was Minister for Education she was one of the keenest advocates ever of comprehensive school and oversaw the opening of many of them.

They are each as bad as the other. There is no longer a 3 party system there is a little club of people who's sole ambition was to be a polititican and have never experienced life outside the Westminster bubble.

The simple fact is as long as we have the current crop of wankers leaders we are all screwed.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:36:02

That said, those who say that Labour didn't leave the most godawful mess (because of global factors) also must absolve the Coalition, for the Eurozone and ongoing US crises were not of their making either

That is true, but it's their reaction to the ongoing crisis in Europe that has been woeful. They have repeatedly failed to heed warnings that they are cutting too far and too fast. They have failed to create the conditions for growth. They have failed.

Ilovesunflowers Thu 31-Jan-13 19:36:29

I would NEVER EVER vote Conservative. There were many reasons for our economic crisis (many, many reasons). To think this was purely the fault of labour is quite simply naive.

Ilovesunflowers Thu 31-Jan-13 19:38:18

and I will never forgive the conservative government for turning education into a business through forced and strongly encouraged academyship. Education should never be a business.

CelticPromise Thu 31-Jan-13 19:39:12

I could rant about the Tories all night but re council tax- the highest band is too wide. In lots of areas you pay the same for a large family house as for a mansion. If more revenue is needed- take it from the top.

Also most benefits are paid to people in work, because companies are not paying a living wage.

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 19:43:34

So Clouds why should the elderly be protected from these council tax increases?

Why should those earning over £150k be given a tax cut? You can blah blah all you like about it not generating any extra income but that's because they knew it was coming so shifted their earnings earlier to avoid it then when it was cut plan to shift their earnings later to avoid it again.

I don't hear of those who are better off being asked to pay more.

The excuse being that they earn so much for the country, they should be let off.

Until that is tackled, I'll never believe for one second that the Tories are being so genuine in their quest to reduce the deficit in the fairest way possible. That is a lie! They want to hurt the scroungers, the benefit claimant who doesn't work and sits behind closed curtains. they ignore the reality, which is easy to do from an ivory tower.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:43:37

No, most benefits are paid in pensions. But as the article linked to in the OP states 'Under the last administration, more taxpayers' money was being spent on benefits than on defence, education and health combined'.

That is a shocking fact, and even if half of that money is being paid out in pensions, that's still a hell of a lot of people living lives they can't afford that are being funded by other people. I don't want people to be so poor that they are living on the streets begging, but I do think people need to start living at least vaguely within their means.

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 19:49:35

You want people to live within their means?

You neglect to mention that the biggest chunk of welfare is paid on pensions. Or did you not know that?

Why are companies not paying higher wages? They've been holding pay down and eroding pensions for the lowly workers way before the economic crisis. Why does the government have to subsidise companies in this way?

Most people on benefits have jobs. Their jobs do not pay them enough. Childcare is too high - the government doesn't subsidise it. Housing costs are disgusting - renters are not protected, house prices have gone mental.

Open your eyes to the bigger picture.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:50:01

So Clouds why should the elderly be protected from these council tax increases?

Because elderly people have no opportunity to ever increase their earnings, and they are too late in their stage of life to make significant changes. The disabled should be protected because their lives are already more expensive than most.

Elderly and disabled people are the people who should be benefitting the most from public services, especially council run ones, and that is why everyone else who isn't elderly or disabled should be paying their fair share.

Why should those earning over £150k be given a tax cut?

Because the 50% rate that Labour only brought in in the last 30 days they were in power was only done so that they would have something to slag off the Tories about when they inevitably came into power and put it back to where it had been for the previous 13 years. And 50% of anyone's income is too much. Especially when people who earn that sort of money contribute in other ways to society.

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 19:51:31

Sorry you did blush sorry clouds

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:52:19

You neglect to mention that the biggest chunk of welfare is paid on pensions. Or did you not know that?

I didn't neglect to mention it at all. It was my first bloody sentence!!

Open your eyes to what has actually been written.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 19:52:39

Sorry, cross posted smile

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 19:52:57

It's not 50% of total income.

It's 50% of income above £150k.

And if we're all in it together they shouldn't have cut it. Why cut it?

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 19:53:33

PMSL - I'm getting very wound up and typing too quickly and skim reading <breathes>

BacardiNCoke Thu 31-Jan-13 19:55:02

Slatternly, what ,precisely, do benefit claimants NOT get for free then?

hmm So you call paying income tax for over 20 years before losing your job and then having to claim benefits and only being able to feed your kids because you get help from your parents getting everything for free? Right I'll tell DH that he's a dirty rotten scrounger then, because of course being employed for more than half your life and then the instant you fall on hard times you automatically go through a magnificent transformation from hard working contributor to society into a lazy rotten benefits scrounger. Right thanks for clearing that up for me Skittish. hmm

BacardiNCoke Thu 31-Jan-13 20:01:29

I think that's a marvellous idea sukysue. smile

ShellyBoobs Thu 31-Jan-13 20:03:59

I've never voted Conservative and I've always said I never would.

The more I read, though, the more likely I am to vote for them next time around.

They're doing a far better job for the country than Labour would have done. Labour are always fucked when they run out of someone else's money.

We'd be vying with Greece for the honour of 'most fucked economy in Europe' if that bellend Brown had carried on much longer.

As for voting Labour while Ed Miliband is at the helm? No. Fucking. Chance.

TheOriginalLadyFT Thu 31-Jan-13 20:06:52

I'd vote Conservative no matter what, because the alternatives make me sick. I don't agree with all their policies, but the Labour Party (and in particular what Tony Blair did and stood for) are vile

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 20:07:34

We'd be vying with Greece for the honour of 'most fucked economy in Europe' if that bellend Brown had carried on much longer

That is bollocks. Go and read reputable sources and you'll learn. You've fallen for it.

JakeBullet Thu 31-Jan-13 20:08:01

skittish...I am another of those pesky benefits claimants. I was employed non stop for 30 years prior to that that okay with you?

I am not disputing the fact that the NMW is SO low that people are obliged to claim benefits on top just in order to live. That is wrong. ....and sadly they are the people these changes will hit hardest. It won't hit the "can't be bothered to work" brigade.... and I am not doubting they exist either.

Jobs though.....people coming in often take on skilled jobs or are migration workers. Perhaps we should be asking why we are not producing enough skilled workers of our own.

JakeBullet Thu 31-Jan-13 20:12:09

...and I think nearly all politicians are self serving bastards who are very economical with the truth when it suits them. Thats EVERY flavour of political persuasion. ....

For evidence jusy look at the closure downgrading of Lewisham Hospital thread. Jeremy Kunt's work and totally oposite to what he "promised". Scumbags all of them and I hate the bastards .

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 20:14:46

Yes, 50% over £150k, as well as the 40% over £34k, which is a ridiculously low bracket.

If it were just the 50% over £150k, I'd agree that it wasn't so bad, but when people get charged a massive 40% on £34k (or just over - can't remember exactly) then that is a huge amount of tax for people to be paying.

I realise the country needs revenue, but there is only so much you can take from some individuals before you start saying all individuals have to pay something.

I will say that I don't agree with the CT benefit cut coming in at the same time as the 'bedroom tax' is coming in. I just think that council services are just too important to too many people for people to be able to pay nothing towards it.

CelticPromise Thu 31-Jan-13 20:21:01

I don't think £34k is ridiculously low for 40%. It's well above average I believe.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:23:55

One thing I will say (without really knowing a massive amount about it - I'll admit that much) against Labour is that WTC and CTC seem far too complicated - and therefore expensive. I think the system needs to be simplified massively. I'm sure someone will come up with a clever reason why I'm wrong, but I dont' think anyone earning under £20k should pay income tax (of course they will pay tax via plenty of other schemes) and I don't think the 40% tax band should come in to force until someone earns over £65k. And the upper rate should stay where it is...

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 20:23:57

Er no that's not how the tax works.

First £8k is not taxed

Income above £8k is taxed at 20%

Income above £34k is 40%

So it's the amounts above which are taxed at those rates not the whole amount.

But yes the tax thresholds are low. That's because of sneaky fiscal drag where the boundaries haven't been properly increased in line with inflation.

As for people paying nothing towards their services - most people will pay something at some point.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 20:25:44

£34k gross doesn't buy a lavish lifestyle though. It doesn't buy complete financial security, or even an average short haul holiday every year if you are paying childcare costs and working/commuting costs for two people. Especially if you have more than one child.

40% is a big chunk of money!

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:26:02

celticPromise that's because the average is so low compared to our cost of living. £26k a year is the average income and it's incredibly hard to have a comfortable lifestyle in this country on that kind of money, what with rising housing and fuel costs.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 20:28:33

Er no that's not how the tax works.

I do know how it works, I just haven't expressed that very well. Sorry.

landofsoapandglory Thu 31-Jan-13 20:28:53

I'll tell you who I will vote for, I will vote for whom ever will close the loopholes that allow companies to avoid paying tax on their earnings in this country. A man on the Oneshow tonight said the figure in lost revenue is closer to £25 billion than £5billion! It is an absolute scandal! Why has no Government sorted this out?

I don't believe the mess this country is in is entirely Labour's fault, but it is partly, and if people don't understand that, then IMO they Are the brain washed ones! When we had the good times and the government was raking the money in Gordon Brown was making no provisions to save just in case we hit a recession, he continually overspent and borrowed money. Then low and behold the whole world went into recession, we had no money put by so we were well and truly up shit street!

It wouldn't matter what party were in now, cuts would have to be made. I am under no illusion either, if Labour win the next election they won't reverse the cuts, they shall just blame the state of the economy on the Tories, say they wouldn't have done it like this but now it is done it is too late and carry on!

They are all a bunch of cunts in a different colour suit!

CelticPromise Thu 31-Jan-13 20:35:04

Agreed. But it's easier on £34k or £26k than on NMW. I think that something needs to be done about the cost of childcare and housing and that would make a difference for a lot of people. Not convinced that the current childcare changes will benefit anyone except shareholders in large nurseries.

Only a really small proportion of workers earn over £65k. I expect we couldn't afford to lose that much tax.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 20:38:05

Ed Milliband what a joke he is, did you see the pathetic attempt to big him up on the latest labour party advert . He may be clever etc etc etc but I don't want someone who sounds like him being our pm . I know he can't help it but OMG you have to be realistic not a good helmsman for us really.Not a good image at all.Also I can't quite forgive him for having one over on his brother if he'd do that to him then what lengths would he go to for the further promotion of self.

chickensarmpit Thu 31-Jan-13 20:38:20

Everyone needs to contribute into the system. A few quid a week is hardly a kick in the teeth is it? I have to pay £30ish a week and it pisses me off no end but I'm paying for a service. I want my bins empty, I want my street to be lit up at night etc.. These services cost a lot of money and it's not fair on the workers who have to pay and get no help. Yet I will probably get jumped on here for simply stating that the buck needs to stop somewhere.

ShellyBoobs Thu 31-Jan-13 20:41:44

Go and read reputable sources and you'll learn.

There are reputable sources where I can read about what state the economy would be in of Gordon Brown was still in power?


P.S. Do you know most of your responses in this thread come across as incredibly patronising, Iggly?

IfNotNowThenWhen Thu 31-Jan-13 20:44:47


All the banks we bailed out

etc, etc, etc.

I say the buck stops with them. Not a family having to choose between eating properly and being warm enough.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:44:52

celtic I'm not privvy to all the details but the cost of administering the WTC and CTC system could be used to pay for it. That would be my first port of call in overhauling the tax system. Not scrapping higher rates for wealthier people and making disabled people prove how disabled they are to justify their payments.

LittlePicnic Thu 31-Jan-13 20:46:31

OP- YANBU-Just the other night I realised our county council might be reducing the financial worth of the nursery education grant. I.e. we will have to pay more to top up the cost of the free 15 hours nursery education, I realised I am so fed up of living in this country. This government are squeezing the middle and the poor at every possible turn. I just wish ordinary people would realise that the Tories are only interested in the Rich people. If only the rich people whose interests the Tories represent voted for them, the average family would be better off now. Labour may have overspent but the Tories are destroying this country. They are privatising the schools (academies) and the NHS. Soon there will be nothing left to sell off.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:48:33

sukey I've been utterly flamed for being as disparaging about shiny red faced posh twats in the Tory party, told in no uncertain terms that I was being shallow and they should be judged on their performance not their appearance. I quite like Ed I fancy David Miliband more though and to be honest whilst I don't like most politicians, I would rather he than Dave C and his millionaire cabinet.

PessaryPam Thu 31-Jan-13 20:49:50

Oh dear are you going to have to pay for something OP? Welcome to the fucking club.

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 20:52:27

Hi a nerve have I Shelly?

The claim about the uk being another Greece simply isn't true.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 20:53:30

I know what you are saying fairy but what he did to his brother was unforgiveable and I would not like to have him as leader of our country. If he could do that to his bother what else is he capable of? I don't trust him , I should add I don't trust any of the wasters.

Iggly Thu 31-Jan-13 20:55:31

Sorry Shelly but if you're going to make claims about the UK being saved from being another Greece then I have a right to call you on that load of dross. If I sound patronising then so be it.

CelticPromise Thu 31-Jan-13 20:56:00

Pessary don't kid yourself it's only people affected who could possibly oppose this.

BridgetBidet Thu 31-Jan-13 20:57:15

Can I just point out, it's up to the individual councils whether they pass on these charges or not. And many of the councils who have decided to do so are, er, Labour.

In fact according to Private Eye many Labour councils with an operating surplus are making cuts and imposing rises in a manner which appears to be attempting to stoke up anger towards the Tory government.

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:59:48

sukey I don't remember, apart from winning the vote did he do anything particularly underhand to David? I know he (David) was devastated but then he'd probably been foolish enough to believe all the press written about him being the next Labour leader. It's never a done deal until all the votes are counted.

And as for Ed being ruthless... To be honest in politics I don't think anyone gets to the top without being ruthless. Even John Major (the only Tory leader I think I could stand being the same room as) will have stepped over a few people on his way to the top. You simply don't get to be the leader of a party just by being a nice person.

PeneloPeePitstop Thu 31-Jan-13 21:00:04

I'm fortunate that my local authority are protecting housing benefit claimants.

Doesn't help with the £83 a week I'm already losing... But at least it ain't more!!!!


ShellyBoobs Thu 31-Jan-13 21:03:37

Iggly - no, you haven't hit a nerve.

It was your response to others that I found patronising.

LynetteScavo Thu 31-Jan-13 21:06:42

You know ages ago when I said we will go back to living like we did in the '70's.

And lots of people weren't even born back then, or even in the 80's.....we'll we're getting there.

<<Hopes for a summer like 1976, although hot weather tends to bring out rioters>>

LynetteScavo Thu 31-Jan-13 21:08:26

Sorry, will try that agan

You know ages ago when I said we will go back to living like we did in the '70's?

And lots of people weren't even born back then, or even in the 80's.....well we're getting there

HeadFairy Thu 31-Jan-13 21:11:49

Lynette I thought the same, especially when back in March they were talking about the worst drought since '76 and there was talk of standpipes in the streets and we know what happened to that idea grin

I do think it's a really big lifestyle change for people, one holiday a year was considered luxury, people didn't spend large amounts of money on personal grooming or clothes all the time, people didn't buy so much disposable tat. I don't mind it, I have good memories of the 70s of course I was but a baby but it's such a retrograde step, it feels like we've gone nowhere in the past 35 years.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 21:13:21

Allegedly Ed opposed the failed coups by Labour MPs designed to oust Mr Brown before the general election. If the plotters had succeeded, David, then Foreign Secretary, would have been the clear front-runner to become prime minister. Allegedly Ed also didn't tell his brother until 6 days before the competition for leader was held, that he would be going against him now if true that is sly and underhand.

carben Thu 31-Jan-13 21:41:18

Suki - For someone who professes such dislike for Ed - you seem awfully interested in his life and are developing a nice line in cod psychology regarding his 'motives'. Would be interesting to hear your views on born to rule Dave.

AmandaCooper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:44:48

I am glad they passed the Protection of Freedoms Act and brought back a bit of common sense; the way the Labour Party was hacking apart our civil liberties was sickening.

andubelievedthat Thu 31-Jan-13 22:01:51

yeah, my having a stroke and so getting on disability allowance £71 per wk was a fucking masterstroke> wish i"d done it sooner! as to poster who opinioned that people on benifits live a life working people could only dream off? oh yeah? fucking nightmare more like >if its such a dreamy life for us skivers, come on down and join us,>oh ,wait ,am i hearing ...yes ,i am!, i!m hearing "i work, i am to proud to claim benefits"> same old same old.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 22:03:21

I feel an affinity for Dave many reasons really, like the fact he has adopted 2 children, not every man can bring themselves to do that. Makes me think there is more to him than meets the eye.Hidden depths perhaps. I also admire his refusal so far to become a shadow minister. Mind if he does then I think Ed will really have to look out!

Onewomanandherdog Thu 31-Jan-13 22:31:34

I've been working with people on Jobseekers Allowance recently. The 'lifestyle that we all dream about' is just that! Why don't you try it skittish - £72 per week to pay your bills, eat, heat your home etc. I doubt whether you'll find it that luxurious

GrowSomeCress Thu 31-Jan-13 22:35:37

grow up OP

NicholasTeakozy Thu 31-Jan-13 22:52:43

dreamingofsun Thu 31-Jan-13 18:44:47

oh grow up. labour have left this country's economic affairs in a right mess

Well done for swallowing the Tory lie. What has, and continues to, fuck our economy is a combination of not allowing the banks to fail and global neoliberalism. Globalisation has exported well paid manufacturing jobs and anti union measures have meant (collectively) wage dilution.

Anybody who thinks austerity measures will fix the economy or reduce the deficit is deluded. Or Gideon.

twofingerstoGideon Thu 31-Jan-13 23:20:17

Ifnot - one reason why so many working class kids became GPO's is because of grammar schools which Labour abolished

I think you need to get your facts right.
The wheels may have been set in motion by a Labour minister but Margaret Thatcher, when she was Education Secretary, closed down more grammar schools than any Labour ministers.

Alittlestranger Thu 31-Jan-13 23:38:32

No one seriously thinks that people on benefits live a lifestyle people working full time can only dream off, do they? If you do I challenge you to give up your job and live off benefits. What the hell, ask your OHs to leave so you can reap the full luxury whirlwind that is life on the breadline.

And the Tories didn't "suggest" people pay 10% if they could afford it. They cut the overall budget by 10%, told councils to look after pensioners and find a way of helping everyone else with the by then heavily squeezed budget.

Alittlestranger Thu 31-Jan-13 23:42:32

BridgetBidet it's not really up to the individual councils. The money they have been given is 10% below what it needed to be to protect everyone. If councils aren't passing on the council tax benefit cut it's because they are making cuts elsewhere. And council budgets have already been cut back so a lot of councils really don't have anything to work with here. But of course it's in the government's interest for a lot of people to blame their labour council for this. hmm

MechanicalTheatre Fri 01-Feb-13 00:56:21

I was on Incapacity Benefit for 2 years. It was great. Foreign holidays, massive house, all the clothes I wanted, plus of course fags, booze and a massive choice of Sky channels.

How I managed it on 60-odd quid a week is beyond me.

Fanjango Fri 01-Feb-13 01:02:47

grin at Mechanical. You must be doing it wrong. We were on benefits and we have built up huge debts a massive telly!

Fanjango Fri 01-Feb-13 01:06:45

Sadly the debts are real and the telly is not. I hate these threads, I have no idea how these rich jobseekers do it. We have hit rock bottom but dp has landed a job that may just do it, a second job, if he keeps it we may pay off the debts we incurred by being workless in about 3 years. Great life on the dole, innit??

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 06:35:30

grin @MechanicalTheatre who has just made me spit coffee everywhere. gringrin

Sukysue, I didn't know Shiny Dave had two adopted children. I've googled but no information comes up.

<also pmsl at Mechanical>

*fail - you didn't mean him did you?

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 07:48:09

Tax fact - if you earn over £100 0000 you lose your tax allowance so pay tax on every penny PLUS you pay higher NI>

Just sayin'.

I agree that most politicians are as bad as each other form every party. Most on both sides of teh house are wealthy and priveledged.

Alittlestranger Fri 01-Feb-13 08:18:15

"Shiny Dave" had discussed it in interviews, it's apparently one reason why he didn't move against Gordon Brown.

But confused at the slightly annoyed tone that Google isn't readily spitting out information about someone's family life.

JollyRedGiant Fri 01-Feb-13 08:21:01

And folk wonder why Scots are considering voting Yes in our referendum?!

Alittlestranger Fri 01-Feb-13 08:23:33

What so you can feck off and leave us to the Tories in a redrawn parliament? Yeah, thanks for that.

dreamingofsun Fri 01-Feb-13 08:56:02

there are several people on this thread saying how poor they are because their husbands have been our of work. Can I ask what you have been doing during this period? Have you been in work, or seeking it? Or just relying on one person to do it? If its the latter would a bit more flexibility on roles not help and for both of you to seek employment?

lubeybooby Fri 01-Feb-13 08:58:30

"I'd vote Labour if a cheese sandwich stood for election and I wouldn't vote Tory with a gun to my head"

I laughed so much at that! Agreed.

JollyRedGiant Fri 01-Feb-13 08:58:37

We don't vote Tory. And actually there have only been one or possibly two occasions when Scots votes have 'saved' the UK from a Tory govt.

So it wouldn't make any difference to the main party in the UK parliament but would allow the Scots to have who they voted for.

ssd Fri 01-Feb-13 09:03:28

was just thinking that jollyredgiant

it seems to me we got a kicking in the 80's from Maggie and her poll tax, now England seem to be getting a kicking from DC's crew

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 09:11:53

i dont think any one chooses to have a life on benifits it is how there circumstance are at the time. what i dont like about the tories is they think where all lazy scrounges and we are lazy and won,t work. but all you see on telly is buisness closing people losing there jobs cuts being made left right and centre.
tories seem to blame labour all the time. i dont think this is true that is what the tories want you to believe they don,t mention the shit they have done for many years.

How can you vote for this waistcoat wearing wanker? How??

And he's shafted his own Tory Voters who don't live near Tatton in this one.

I am never going to vote for a Party who value some rich kid's education over my own and will make it increasingly difficult to get a degree or pursue further education.

Is there anyone here who votes Tory and works in Public Services in the North West? I would be DELIGHTED to hear your views.

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 09:51:28

I agree bringback.

I much prefer lovely Diane Abbott and so admire her using local state schools for her kid, her being a Leftie an all.
And that lovely working class Fettes boy Tony and his small council house lifestyle.

Or what about nasal Ed and his good ole working clss roots and minimum wage lifestyle.

Gawd bless the Labour party.

You are scary Skittish! Like a member of the Moonies in your blind devotion.

God help you if you lose your job and cant get another one. confused

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 10:00:58

I work for myself bringback. Ten hour days.

This is interesting :

*There is a gradient in smoking prevalence with social class. In social
class I around 15% of men and 14% of women smoke cigarettes. In
social class V smoking prevalence reaches 45% for men and 33%
for women.
However this obscures the very high levels observed
among the most deprived groups, where smoking prevalence reaches
over 70%, and is about 90% in homeless people sleeping rough.*

So if the very poorest can afford to spend £8 a box on fags, are you really suggesting they can't afford a few quid a week to pay for the services they use?

thesnootyfox Fri 01-Feb-13 10:03:10

Which Dave has two adopted children?

Alittlestranger Fri 01-Feb-13 10:07:34

Skittish do you walk around with your eyes closed? You know how those 90% of homeless people sleeping rough feed their habit? They pick up half smoked fags from the pavement. If you open your eyes you'll suddenly see it all the time. Yes, smoking litter is just another wonderful perk for the poorest.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 10:09:45

skitissh that is a silly observation i wonder why people in lowerclass smoke has you call it because they have nothing if that the only privilage they have. its that blind view of why does a poor person have a blackberry i dont know maybe they saved up for it.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 10:12:24

there,s people looking in bins for christ sake for food and other people pouring chemicals on them so they cant eat it why? this just seems such a waste of food and veryselfish

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 10:14:51

*alittle8 the non homeless, presumably, buy their fags?

naughty if people want are stupid enough to smoke, let 'em. But purleese don't tell me they then can't be expected to pay for services they use or are you REALLY suggesting the rest of should pay more to preserve the poor's fag habits? shock

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 10:15:19

Agree about food bins, obscene waste.

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 10:24:02

Sorry but many of you are deluded. We (as a country) have no money! Cuts have to be made! It will not make one whit of difference if labour come back into power the cuts will remain in place as more will probably be made.

Unless of course the labour party have a secret bunker filled to the rafters with money....

Do any of you honestly believe that the labour party will magically fix all the problems if they come back into power? If so, how?

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 10:27:18

most of the goverment have been claiming money they don,t even deserve claming for this claming for a duck pondshock demanding more money while more people on low income jobs are expected to pay with out even a pay rise.hmm why should one person who has a very well established job and someone have a not so good job be made to pay everything i say the rich need to pick up the bill the ones who have been doging the taxes for years.

TuppenceBeresford Fri 01-Feb-13 10:31:44

What a depressing thread. Esp the poster who said that they'd rather some people struggle so everybody else would have better services. hmm

I'd like better services too, but I would rather pay higher taxes to pay for them rather than make the poor or vulnerable pay. Why not? We are not rich - we have probably an average household income, but we are blessed to have a home, we never struggle to buy food, we can even manage to save a little bit of money at the end of the month. We are healthy, we are fortunate - is the point of society not for the strong and the fortunate to carry the weak and the vulnerable? What IS the point in society, if not that? Or was Thatcher right and there's no such thing?

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 10:31:52

i think the goverment keep going on about cuts but they will give billions away to india or other countrys this country is in a right mess. the govement puts us in this mess then expects every one to be in it togetherhmm i bet david cameron wish he never used that frase.

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 11:13:32

Blimey skittish, have you never seen homeless folk going down bins because I have.

You're one of those people who sees people in the depths of poverty and misses everything except the one seeming luxury they have so you can smugly say "serves em right" aren't you?

Viviennemary Fri 01-Feb-13 11:19:53

I wouldn't vote for Milliband. If Labour got a decent leader with some answers then I might vote for them again. But until then I won't be. I did vote Labour last time. Goodness knows why.

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 11:57:40

yy Tuppence but you realise you are fortunate, so many privileged people seem to think they deserve it and it's because they are special not lucky, or they think they are badly off because they can't have things that only the truly rich can afford. I'd rather pay more than the poorest be forced to pay.

On a different note, it's David Miliband who has adopted children, not Call-Me-Dave.

JoanByers Fri 01-Feb-13 12:04:25

"Independent researchers the Resolution Foundation found some want to charge affected households an extra 20% of the full council tax bill.

Their bills will rise by more than £600 a year at a time when many families are facing a major squeeze because of the slow economic recovery."

Eh what?

More than £600 a year?

Who exactly has a council tax bill of £3k?

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 13:56:37

Indeed Joan - more Leftie scaremongering grin.

I'm going to pick up on the luck comment. We aren't reasonably well off through luck, we so because we work over 100 hours a week between us running two businesses. When our friends, twenty years ago, were out and holidaying and buying nice cars we were taking in lodgers, driving clapped out aold bangers and living off baked beans.

I would be incredibly happy if my taxes did go only to the weak and vulnerable but they don't. They go to people who choose to work part time, or have only one partner work or do no work at all. A luxury the rest of us paying for them can't afford.

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 14:11:40

....and I so hope things never crash for you skittish because there are many people out there for whom thst is the reality.

I have worked for the past 30 years but now live on benefits while I care for my DS who is autistic. I didn't ever predict life would work out like this. I didn't predict my husband would walk away. Life sometimes smacks you roght between thr eyes. Until DS is an adult I doubbt I will ever be able to work full time. I don't know yet if I will be penalised for this....but I will do what I have to do in order to care for my son. Many others are in the same boat.....and the determined workshy folk will continue to be so. That's the reality of life...and those who ARE making a contribution. ...however they can are being demonised. That is wrong.....and I hate the politicians who have done this.

Viviennemary Fri 01-Feb-13 15:46:44

It does annoy me when I read that people can't be expected to pay 20% towards their council tax. Why shouldn't they. I'd like to see low paid workers paying no tax up till at least £12,000 if not £15,000. End ridiculous housing subsidies for people to live in inner London. Why should low earning tax payers in the rest of the country subsidise this. People forget for every pound paid in benefit somebody has to pay for that in tax. And some of these people aren't very well off themselves.

HappyMummyOfOne Fri 01-Feb-13 16:00:34

I voted Tory and would again. Labour bought votes by throwing money at people and had no thought as to put aside any for when the bad times hit.

I dont get the uproar about council tax, everyone uses the services so everyone should pay. Why should those who self support be penalised when thousands choose not to work or work little and then moan about having to pay bills.

The changes mean we are gradually taking benefits back to being a safety net rather than a lifestyle choice. That can only benefit the economy and future generations.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 01-Feb-13 16:03:46

I dont get the uproar about council tax, everyone uses the services so everyone should pay.

^^ This.

Don't people realise what council tax actually pays for? It pays for services that are essential and affect everyone. Not just the few.

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 16:09:55

You voted Tory HappyMummy? Surely not.....what a shocker!

Thing is that there are millions doing what they can and contributing.....they will suffer NOT those who can't be bothered.

Personally I have no issue with contributing to council tax...I'll just set up a direct debit as I did when working. Don't assume though that people have just made "lifestyle choices" ....many have lost jobs and can't find others.

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 16:12:47

jake for some people sadly it is a lifestyle choice. I know several people like this myself and it drives me round the bend!

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 16:13:25

...I still say there will be a massive shortfall in council tax once the cuts really bite. This concerns me as it will lead inevitably to a shortfall in services. The amounts of council tax contribution are small...I have only one child and I will manage to pay my contribution.
For those who might have fallen on hard times with 2/3/4 children though it might be a straight choice between that and food.....I know where they will put the money. The sums are so small that recovery will not be economical and we will all suffer.

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 16:18:47

Oh I absolutely agree there are some for whom it IS a lifestyle choice but when the NMW is so low it's hardly surprising. They need to focus in making work pay more than benefits.....any amount of work making people better off financially....then people will do it.

I have always earned good money but due to my son's disability I am currently out of work and a Carer. I want to go back to work but not take the high pressured job I had before. A Jobcentreplus advisor told me that to be financially better off on NMW I Woukd need to work 30 hours a week which I cannot do because of my son's needs. To be worse off in work on NMW is a disgrace and THAT is what needs tackling.

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 16:19:02

Can you see it from the other pov tho? If my tax goes up to subsidise those on benefits it's dc who lose out. I don't find that fair personally.

Myself ad dp chose to have our family and work to provide for them. I'm not choosing for others dp's sister to sit on her arse all day

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 16:20:58

I agree with that jake but equally of in your circumstance you could pay towards ct surely others can do the same by tightening their belts a bit?

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 16:47:01

Skittish you're lucky your business pays. You're lucky to have a strong relationship. You're lucky not to have caring responsibilities or illness/disability that prevent you working. You're lucky that you had the education and capital to get your business started. There are far more people working their arses off in NMW jobs than there are idle scroungers, but this government is doing a great spin job about idle benefit claimants. Do you think you are more deserving than the working poor?

Re 'belt tightening'- I'd rather those who could afford it tightened theirs a touch than anyone have to cut from their food or bills.

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 16:52:15

But how is that fair celtic? I'm not saying I disagree but I feel that if someone is working hard for their money and is fundIng their own dc ad lifestyle why should they also be made to pay for others?

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 16:59:53

Because we try to make society fair (ish) and we believe there is a level at which state support is required, and we think there are things eg healthcare that should be available to all. I have also read ( on here somewhere, but can't recall link) that the vast majority of people are actually gaining from the tax system, through NHS, infrastructure, education, pensions etc. You probably get out more than you put in.

Would you prefer each to pay their own way?

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 17:05:35

If people paid their own way the poor would die off surely if they can't even afford to pay a percentage of thier council tax

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 17:06:35

And how is it fair that some have more than others in the first place? Some is down to hard work and planning. Lots is down to luck.

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 17:07:45

I think some people wouldn't mind that Fairy, until they couldn't get anyone to do menial work.

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 17:08:59

I think tho if someone has earnt their money they are entitled to it. Sorry but that's how it is. If you had a car I wanted I couldn't just take it on the basis that it's not fair you have one and I don't.

There is a reason communism doesn't work

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 17:17:17

I have huge respect for the working poor and would remove those under 12 k from income tax completely .

It is those choosing not to work or work as little as they can I object to.

aquashiv Fri 01-Feb-13 17:27:15

For the record the national debt has risen from £811.3bn, or 55.3 per cent of GDP, to £1,111.4bn, or 70.7 per cent of GDP, since the coalition entered office.
Growth all time low and unemployment getting up to their last Tory record.

Oh yes the Tories are doing a sterling job?angry.

AmberSocks Fri 01-Feb-13 17:29:15

havnt read the whole thread,but i honestly dont feel like anything has changed!

I think they are all the same,this country is going down the pan who ever gets in,it doesnt matter who.

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 17:31:26

I agree skittish and the dreadful issue of income tax increases for sone of the lowest paid was introduced by a Labour government. ....not their finest hour at all.

Anyway.....just heard I have been shortlisted for an interview. ...grin grin grin grin a bit pleased....I wont be better off as it's only a few hours a week but I can swallow a small loss in exchange for the other benefits of work..... hopefully as things settle down again with DS I can do increasing hours. (I mean to get this job lol). Will be sitting in the waiting room with a beady eye on everyone else and a "get's mine" attitude grin .

AmberSocks Fri 01-Feb-13 17:32:15

* Some is down to hard work and planning. Lots is down to luck.*

Thats a big generalisation,we have more than most but my husband has worked extremely hard for it,for the last 10 years.Luck has nothing to do with it,even if you have inherited money,somewhere down the line someone somewhere has worked hard.

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 17:41:25

Good luck jake! smile

CloudsAndTrees Fri 01-Feb-13 17:44:31

Well done and Good Luck JakeBullet smile

AmberSocks Fri 01-Feb-13 17:49:58

do most people not pay council tax then?

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 18:14:58

People in low income or on benefits either pay a reduced amount or have it paid for them in council tax benefit

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 18:27:51

AmberSocks don't you think someone who inherits wealth is12 lucky? I don't understand that. Do you think they deserve it by their fortunate birth?

Don't you think you are lucky to be married to your hardworking husband?

We're also better off than most, and both of us have worked hard. I don't think that our good fortune is purely down to our hard work and not down to our education, opportunities etc.

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 18:28:33

Don't know where the random number 12 came from!

Orwellian Fri 01-Feb-13 18:39:51

Very easy to not care about all this stuff when it's not your money paying for it all. I am sure you would think differently if you were personally responsible. That is the problem with Labour. They always run out of other peoples money!

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 18:58:31

FairyJen sorryI missed your response earlier. How far would you take it though, the idea of everyone keeping what they earn? Would you keep any public services?

aquashiv Fri 01-Feb-13 19:09:29

That is the problem with Labour. They always run out of other peoples money!
How so? Please explain what on earth you mean by this.

CloudsAndTrees Fri 01-Feb-13 19:12:14

AmberSocks don't you think someone who inherits wealth is12 lucky? I don't understand that. Do you think they deserve it by their fortunate birth?

I don't think someone who inherits wealth is lucky every time it happens. I have a friend who is financially quite secure, from inherited wealth, she has owned her home outright since she was 18. But then she lost both her parents when she was 15, so not really very lucky at all actually.

AmberSocks Fri 01-Feb-13 19:17:24

is that to me Orwellian?

if it is then i see the money my husband pays as my contribution too,we are a family and the tax he pays is our contribution,and if i wasnt here he wouldnt be able to work end of.

there is no such thing as luck!!!!!!

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 19:30:29

CloudsandTrees of course she's not lucky to have lost her parents. We're talking about money aren't we?

AmberSocks no such thing as luck? Really? Don't you think some people are born in more fortunate circumstances than others? Do you think people deserve what happens or doesn't happen to them?

FairyJen Fri 01-Feb-13 19:34:26

celtic sorry bed time rush! It's a tricky one < helpful > I agree services should be avaliable etc but can equally see the other side of the fence where people get annoyed at working often long hard hours so that other dont have to

CloudsAndTrees Fri 01-Feb-13 19:37:00

Yes, but having money doesn't always come from a good place, so it's quite narrow minded to assume that everyone who has it is lucky.

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 19:49:19

Clearly you can be fortunate financially and not in other ways. This thread is about money isn't it?

I think it's narrow minded to think that those who are well off are so entirely because of their own effort. Which seems to be a common view.

Mia4 Fri 01-Feb-13 19:50:48

Same shit different face. I don't want any of the fuckers to get in because they're all in it for themselves, all hypocritical and all make promises they won't actually keep. And all three of the main parties have, and will continue, to keep screwing us over because it suits them to do so.

YANBU to not want Tory's in, YABU to think Labor or Lib Dems (or even any of the others currently on offer) would be any different.

CelticPromise Fri 01-Feb-13 19:52:33

FairyJen but a lot of people in receipt of benefits, like tax credits and housing and council tax benefit, work long hours themselves. I don't believe there are that many in the ' lifestyle choice' category, and there are already sanctions built into the system for them, so when they get dumped off benefits they become a burden on their (poor) families.

PessaryPam Fri 01-Feb-13 19:56:29

Mia4, YY I will never vote for any of the main 3 again. I will vote on issues and may very well vote with my feet before the next election.

mantlepiece Fri 01-Feb-13 20:25:22

Life on benefits is different for different people.

If you have worked all your life and fall on hard times due to redundancy or illness, you will find the money and benefits allocated to you miserly and unfair. This is because you are used to a certain standard of living and find it hard to adjust to a lower income.

If you were born into a family where the previous generations did not work and relied on state help to exist, benefit payments are seen as workable and provide a manageable lifestyle.

I see people in the village where I live where no one in their family has worked for generations... well they do get extra from black market activities. Unfortunately this is a reality in many depressed areas of the country, and accounts for the massive cost to the taxpayer.

There are jobs available, go on any jobcentre search, they are there, but there is a mindset among the permanently jobless that prevents them engaging with employment.

I think most people would like to think they agree that the mark of a civilised society is that the rich support the poor, and that no one would goes hungry or unhoused.

The problem these days is that the "not quite so poor" are financing an ever increasing number of people who are living on benefits as a lifestyle choice.

I think that the big companies that spend vast amounts of money on accountants to help them avoid paying tax should be played at their own game and the government should employ said accountants to close the loopholes of avoidance.

However, I think the companies also have a mindset, albeit the polar opposite of the benefit claimant, that will be just as hard to change. The bottom line in both cases is the same... they don't want to pay!

It is always the people in the middle of this situation that will get squeezed financially.

PeppermintLatte Fri 01-Feb-13 20:44:23

The more i educate myself regarding politics and current affairs, the more i hate cameron & his party.

I feel so passionate, that i'm considering joining the labour party and running for council. Labour had their shortfalls, and the fact that the milliband's are public school boys worries me slightly, but i believe that the working class will be as safe as possible under labour, it's obvious to everyone that the most vulnerable are fucked under this current government.

They won't stay in power at the next election, not a chance. I understand cuts need to be made, but this is ridiculous. Instead of just talking about it, those that feel as passionately as i do need to do something. Campaign, march, protest... Anything to try & stop this unfairness.

nikcname Fri 01-Feb-13 20:59:39

YABU. They are all the same.

Skittish Fri 01-Feb-13 21:03:01

They won't stay in power at the next election, not a chance.
I'd bet my mortgage they will.

PeppermintLatte Fri 01-Feb-13 21:15:15

Then skittish, i'm pretty certain you'd lose your home.

People are outraged, i've never seen people discussing politics so passionately before, and 99% of people i've encountered during these discussions want this shitty coalition out. I believe people will be out in droves at the next election. I'm looking forward to April when this bedroom tax comes in, also October when the migration onto UC starts, i predict riots.

Alot of people are burying their head in the sand and aren't aware of what's about to hit them. People won't stand for it, they'll want them out. I guess we'll have to wait & see, but i hope to god i'm right.

allgoingtoshitnow Fri 01-Feb-13 21:18:24

"I'd bet my mortgage they will. "

So will I.

And the gnashing of teeth and wailing of the left is going to be fantastic. They really do see themselves as the next government.

OP - YABU. 70% of the country agree with cuts to benefits. People need to pay their way or fuck the fuck off. The national mindset has changed for the better.

Viviennemary Fri 01-Feb-13 21:18:51

At this time I simply can't see Labour with Milliband as leader has a hope of getting a majority in the next government. Some people I know that voted LD last time won't vote for them again and will vote Tory next time. Still the election is a long way off.

BridgetBidet Fri 01-Feb-13 21:19:21

I wish there was a third way between the two. A party who didn't want to absolutely screw the poorest, decimate benefits and privatize everything. But who also didn't want to piss huge amounts of money up the wall on five a day consultants, political correctness and over management of public services and paying huge, huge amounts of benefits.

I worked in public services during the Labour period and was shocked at the waste, duplication of services and overpayment of management/consultants etc. But equally I'm shocked by what the Tories have done to the same services. When they came in I hoped they might sort out the flagrant abuses and profligacy from the Labour times and provide efficient streamlined services. Instead they have just cut core essential services almost to the bone.

It's a shame there is no middle way.

LittleTyga Fri 01-Feb-13 21:27:11

32% voted Tory in 2010 - 35% voted Labour but they didn't win enough seats - Cameron lied about Child Benefit, saying he wouldn't means test it, he lied about the NHS, he lied about tax credits - he lied through his teeth and still didn't get as many votes as Brown - doubt very much he'll be voted in again!

PeppermintLatte Fri 01-Feb-13 21:29:07

LittleTyga here's hoping! Thing is though, the damage will be done by 2015, if labour do get back in, how long does it take to reverse some of the damage?

Iggly Fri 01-Feb-13 21:31:24

I worked in public services during the Labour period and was shocked at the waste, duplication of services and overpayment of management/consultants etc
Still happening now! The Tories have banned recruitment so they employ expensive consultants and temps instead which costs more. There's little sense to many Tory policies.

ihategeorgeosborne Fri 01-Feb-13 21:31:44

Sorry, haven't read the whole thread, but surely the first port of call should be to reduce the salaries of the over paid council staff. I understand that some CEO earn in excess of 250k a year. Surely this is not what council tax was intended to pay for. These people should be made to take a pay cut and be bloody grateful they still have a job. How can it be right that low earning families are paying the wages of senior council workers, especially when so many cuts are being made elsewhere.

LittleTyga Fri 01-Feb-13 21:32:15

OP - YABU. 70% of the country agree with cuts to benefits. People need to pay their way or fuck the fuck off. The national mindset has changed for the better.

I thought the Tory's were trailing behind in the polls?
here's my proof - can I see yours?

allgoingtoshitnow Fri 01-Feb-13 21:51:36

Mid-term austerity government, hobbled by a weak libdem element, and thats all Labour can achieve?

And from the Guardian! That last defence against tax avoidance and hypocrisy. The Daily Mail for soapboxing middle England champagne socialists.

Save it for the the term after the next LittleTyga, it'll be more useful to you.

LittleTyga Fri 01-Feb-13 21:57:58

I'll be here allgoing - ready to say 'I told you so' hehehe smile

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 01-Feb-13 22:34:44

What were those questions they asked again to work out how many supported the welfare reforms. . .

1. Do you believe unemployment benefits should pay more than wages.

Can't remember the exact wording of the next one but it was something along the lines of

Do you think benefits should be a lifestyle choice that you pay for, or some other such nonsense

Hardly a precise way of gaining support for what they are doing.

yaimee Fri 01-Feb-13 22:56:23

Cannot stress enough how reasonable you are being op!

yaimee Fri 01-Feb-13 22:56:41

Ps I love you!

cardibach Fri 01-Feb-13 23:18:51

Viviennemary who are these LibDem voters who will vote Tory instead next time? All the LibDem voters I know are up in arms about the betrayal of their ideals/promises to win power alongside the tories when they voted LibDem to avoid voting tory. As far as I can see the last party a disgruntled LibDem voter would switch to is the Tory party! WHere would the advantage be? A vote for the LibDems is a vote for Tories anyway as it stands.

PeppermintLatte Fri 01-Feb-13 23:49:43

Roll on 2015!!

JakeBullet Fri 01-Feb-13 23:52:26

I have absolutely no idea who I will vote for in 2015. Not one of them fill me with any confidence sadly.

ShellyBoobs Sat 02-Feb-13 00:02:48

People are outraged, i've never seen people discussing politics so passionately before, and 99% of people i've encountered during these discussions want this shitty coalition out.

Really? 99%?


If true, you're not encountering a broad cross-section of the electorate.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 02-Feb-13 00:05:42

Roll on 2014, fingers crossed for independence!

Sometimes I think DC is doing all of this because he secretly wants rid of Scotland, he's certainly doing the Yes campaign an awful lot of favours.

PeppermintLatte Sat 02-Feb-13 00:13:40

ShellyBoobs yes, the vast majority if people i've spoken to over the last year regarding the current state of affairs in this country agree that they want this coalition out. This is people i've met through work, college, friends, family and friends of friends etc.. There's only been one who wanted the tories to stay in power. These people come from a wide variety of backgrounds, some academics, some working class, some living on benefits, some single parents, some married couples on a decent combined wage etc.. etc...

PeppermintLatte Sat 02-Feb-13 00:14:37

Jake i'd recommend labour, best of a bad bunch...

AmberSocks Sat 02-Feb-13 00:18:33

what do people think of the smaller parties?

Ivoted for the peace party last time as even though i knoew they had no chance,they are the only ones i really believed in.Its a shame that its really just a choice between 3 equally bad parties.

PeppermintLatte Sat 02-Feb-13 00:33:35

I was listening to a UKIP politician on the radio today, it was hilarious, it might as well have been david "the dictator" cameron speaking.

Labour is the lesser of the evils. I believe the working class will survive under labour, we'll go under if the other 2 stay in power.

allgoingtoshitnow Sat 02-Feb-13 01:44:35

+1 for Scots independence in 2014!

Then when the tartan socialist utopia is built with oil money, and all the UK claimants move as one to live off the scots welfare system, we can start making the remaining UK great again.

Under a proper Tory government.

ComposHat Sat 02-Feb-13 02:00:34

I spent a good part of the late 90s/early 2000s moaning about how Labour were 'just like the Tories' I left the party over one of their vainglorious neo-colonial ventures into someone else's country (I forget which one) but I was wrong. dead wrong.

The Tories are a shower of evil bastards and despite PR man Cameron's efforts, they are hell bent on making life as unbearable as possible for the working classes and the poor, whilst looking after their own.

I've rejoined the Labour Party, partially as I am more and more impressed by Ed Milliband the more I see of him and also as they represent the only way of getting the morally bankrupt and clueless coalition government out.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 02-Feb-13 08:33:09

Arf at my name twin smile

JakeBullet Sat 02-Feb-13 08:39:37

grin Just spotted that...twin name lol.

allgoingtoshitnow Sat 02-Feb-13 08:46:12


ShellyBoobs Sat 02-Feb-13 08:54:09

PeppermintLatte - again I'll say your 'poll' of people you've encountered isn't representative of a broad cross-section of the population.

If Labour are running at 38% support and the Conservatives at 33%, it can't possibly to reasonable to say 99% of people you've spoken to want the Tories out and at the same time think that your sample is representative of the country.

lazybastard Sat 02-Feb-13 09:00:58

Tories are really unpopular in my area, there wasn't even a Tory candidate at the last election.

CloudsAndTrees Sat 02-Feb-13 11:05:26

Labour is unpopular in my area. We had a candidate, but they didn't bother dropping leaflets through the doors, or have representatives at the voting hall. There was lots of promotion of Conservatives, Lib Dems and UKIP though.

I don't think polls really mean very much this far away from the election.

Vev Sat 02-Feb-13 11:31:12

Oh my giddy aunt there are some ignorant folk on here.

I do not know of anyone who is living on benefits would rather not be in work and earning a liveable wage. People are living hand to mouth, not knowing where their next penny is coming from and this government's policies are being hailed as being fair! Come April when UC kicks in many people will be totally destitute.

I am old enough to remember Thatcher and he is a worser version.

Folk on benefits don't get that much you know. We are all a couple of salaries away from being on the other end of the stick ourselves, don't sit too comfy in your righteousness.

ShellyBoobs Sat 02-Feb-13 11:39:01

I don't think polls really mean very much this far away from the election.

Totally agree; they don't even mean that much around the time of an election.

What I do think though, is that a lot of MNers seem somewhat deluded with regard to how much/little support the Tories have. They are certainly not hated by 99% of the population.

Whether they should be hated by 99% is a different issue, though...

AmberSocks Sat 02-Feb-13 11:40:07

from what i am seeing on here,it seems like people think only the working classes matter?

i dont like any of the parties but what exactly have conservative done that is so bad?

i know i sound ignorant-i am ignorant as i live my life i a way where most things dont affect me,but i would still like to doesnt seem any better or worse to me.

Abra1d Sat 02-Feb-13 11:48:12

It is a Coalition government, so presumably people won't be voting LibDem either?

And regardless of whom you vote for, the days of vast state spending on welfare and health are over for the foreseeable future: worldwide. Nobody can afford to spend so much on it as all we western democracies we have been doing. Very harsh times, indeed.

Vote Labour if you have to but don't expect that public spending would improve much.

CloudsAndTrees Sat 02-Feb-13 11:55:29

I agree with that Amber, and have thought it many times while reading MN. It very much does come across as if people seem to think only the working class and poor people matter, and as if they believe that those are the only people who deserve consideration from their government.

allgoingtoshitnow Sat 02-Feb-13 11:57:48

"Oh my giddy aunt there are some ignorant folk on here.

I do not know of anyone who is living on benefits would rather not be in work and earning a liveable wage."

I know loads. And they are mostly Labour supporters because they know where their next (free) meal is coming from. They arent stupid, just utterly selfish.

peeriebear Sat 02-Feb-13 12:11:30

I will never vote Conservative, purely because they are ripping the arse out of the poorest and the disabled time and time again. The Atos fiasco is inhumane. People are committing suicide because they have literally no means of supporting themselves let alone their families.
My friend has just had his Atos claim rejected and read their report. The assessor had put
"He can touch his index finger and thumb on right hand"- He doesn't have an index finger on his right hand.
"He claims to be blind in one eye"- well the supporting evidence from the surgeon who removed his optic nerve supports the claim too!
Another friend has had any possible means of disability support denied because there MIGHT IN FUTURE be a treatment that alleviates her condition. Her doctor was amazed that she was at work (she collapsed at work)- but she has literally no choice. It's work in desperate pain or starve. She doesn't want the life of Riley 'at taxpayer's expense', she wants to not live a purgatory half-life of never ending struggle.

Vev Sat 02-Feb-13 12:42:32

He has decided the bedroom tax is a good idea, but declined the mansion tax. Why is council tax the same for a 4/5 bedroom house the same as a mansion?

A rise in interest rates would bring in money. Why should renters subsidise people with mortgages?

Not exactly fare Cameron's policies.

dreamingofsun Sat 02-Feb-13 13:03:06

vev - if mortgage rates were high you wouldn't expect renters to subsidise landlords. when we first started renting our house out the rates were high and we made a loss each month.

how would a rise in interest rates bring in money? Bring it into where?

Vev Sat 02-Feb-13 13:34:52

No it wouldn't be nice if interest rates were high, but that will be the next move. Was being tongue in cheek.

Skittish Sat 02-Feb-13 18:00:09

peppermintlatte everyone I know votes Tory. I live in true middle England and a turd would get in before a Labour councillor.
Surely my experience is as valid as yours?
What I do know is welfare overhaul is long overdue and very much welcomed by the vast majority.

I did laugh at the poster who said benefit claimants would rather work than claim - I do so adore the naivety of the rose tinted spec wearing Left! grin

Skittish Sat 02-Feb-13 18:04:15

Also loving the idea that renters subsidise mortgages!

Tell me then, why do you rent rather than buy? Oh, because you can't actually afford to buy the house you rent , ergo, it is cheaper and easier for you to rent than to buy .

JakeBullet Sat 02-Feb-13 18:04:18

Skittish....many benefit claimants would rather work but I agree a minority will be hard wired to just claiming.

I woud rather work but cannot...or at least not full time at the moment....I am lucky as I had a job for 30 years prior to this.

I was a HV and a midwife for 20 years and met many families affected by redundancy etc....most eventually got back into work but not all. Many also got temporary work which would end with no further work.

Even the young parents I met usually had someone doing something which brought in money. It's not being naive to say that many benefit claimants would rather not have to claim....I would rather not have to claim.

angeltulips Sat 02-Feb-13 18:18:54

yawn - this coalition gvt is decidedly average, but most of the posters on this thread sound about 7 years old whinging about the meanie Tories.

Gvt spending has gone UP in real terms since this gvt came to power - not down.

And it is pretty much universally acknowledged that our taxation system is far to skewed towards taxing income per capital - but I seem to remember a thread where all these noble mumsnettets violently rejected the idea of using parents homes to pay for elderly care on the basis they wouldn't inherit. Not to mention QE - but of course removing that would be mean some of you would lose youre property wiindfalls that the rest of us are currently subsidising. Not so different from the "wealthy" you seem to despise when your inheritances might be at stake, are you?

I am no fan of this gvt, but the MN attitude to what the government should be providing is completely unrealistic, as is their view of who should be paying for it (short answer: people who earn more than me - whatever that amount of it is). .

angeltulips Sat 02-Feb-13 18:19:35



Skittish Sat 02-Feb-13 18:21:22

angeltulpis nail beautifully hit on head there.

The Rich Who Must Pay More are always those earning more than the person demanding they do so.

CelticPromise Sat 02-Feb-13 19:19:34

Skittish rent is mainly higher than mortgage payments where I live. Rent on my sister's flat is higher than the mortgage on my 3 bed house. It's the deposit that's the problem, and if you don't earn enough to save any money you end up paying your landlord's mortgage.

CelticPromise Sat 02-Feb-13 19:22:16

angel for what it's worth, I'm in favour of IHT and think the threshold should be lowered. And yes I probably will inherit a share of a house one day, and no I don't think I should get to keep it all.

Skittish Sat 02-Feb-13 19:28:28

celtic whichever way you slice it, if you rent it's usually because you cannot afford to buy ergo , you are probably renting a better property than you would live in if you could buy.
And you are not paying your LL mortgage. You are paying for a home you can't afford to buy yourself.
I rented out a house that was live din by a family who could never, ever have bought such a house. We both benefitted from that relationship.

CelticPromise Sat 02-Feb-13 19:38:10

It really depends on what the market is doing at the time. Once it was perfectly possible to buy a house on one average income. Now it is not. The increase in property values had benefited those who have it hugely, through them doing nothing, while those who don't have it are priced out unless they have help. Because of the competition for rental property prices go up while mortgage payments are low thanks to low interest rates.

lazybastard Sat 02-Feb-13 19:46:03

Stupid and utterly selfish am I allgo. Yes of course I was made redundant just to loss you off. Losing my job, independence and future aren't punishment enough though are they? I need to be slagged off and kicked while I'm down. I'm sick of the whole fucking thing.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sat 02-Feb-13 20:22:30

Don't worry lazybastard, not everyone thinks that.
Unfortunately there are too many people in this country who have unreasonable amounts of vitriol for people that they perceive to be having a "free ride" at their expense.
Of course, the reality is very different, but even if it wasn't I support the basic ideal of the welfare state, without which our country would be a much much worse place. I don't actually care too much if a tiny minority never work, and don't want to, because the fact is the system protects the majority who are trying hard.
I am happy to pay tax to live in a civilised place where the poor are treated with dignity and not like criminals who have to prove that they are worthy all the time.
The ones who are being viscous about the imaginary scroungers they read about in the mail seem to spend a lot of time worrying that someone, somewhere is having an easier life than them. Strangely they don't seem very bothered about the actual "free riders"-the big name entertainers making millions and avoiding all tax, the bankers still raking it in while their employers siphon off public money, the corporations declaring no income while making millions off the British people.
They remind me of the forelock tugging house servants of yore, thinking their masters can do no wrong, while actually their masters couldn't give the tiniest shite about them.
They should save their bile for the people who are actually screwing us over, and that's not you.

lazybastard Sat 02-Feb-13 20:42:31

Sadly these people are usually the employers,so we have to convince people who despise us to give us a job.

It's like the second you are handed your p45 any good you may have done in the past is wiped out. Do people honestly believe it's easy losing your job?

CelticPromise Sat 02-Feb-13 21:11:48

<applauds IfNotNow>

dreamingofsun Sun 03-Feb-13 09:50:48

ifnotnow - i don't think people are happy about anyone not paying their way. But individual scroungers tend to be people you know rather than read about in the papers, so you are closer to the situation and more familiar with it, eg my uncle in law with his supposed bad back that didn't stop him moonlighting or the cousins in law who suggested disability benefit because i didn't want to return to work after maternity leave.

2wwmadness Sun 03-Feb-13 10:07:47

Skittish- I've not read the whole thread. But the bit about being "being in a stable home before kids" has made me say this to you.

I was married 8 years. Both high payed jobs. Took over a year to conceive my son, we planned him. 8 months pregnant my exh decided it "wasn't for him" and left. No contact. Ds is now 9 months. I work p-t but could t go back to what I did before because I the hours. So what did I do worng then? The Benifits system helps me stay afloat. I need it to live. This winter at times I was down to heat or eat. I had to make those choices. I sincerely hope you never have to go through what I have just done. The stigma of being a single parent it support off benefits was a massive knock to my pride. But I am proud. And proud we live in a society where we are Compassionate and help people in need. It's not easy and it has made me re-evaluate my spending and what I did to help others. It is vital we support eachother for the greater good.
I hope you never have to experience the reason why we need a benefit system. It's far from easy

ReturnOfEmeraldGreen Sun 03-Feb-13 10:47:57

I would rather die than vote Tory.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sun 03-Feb-13 11:37:51

Thanks Celtic [smile}. It's a good thing ds is poorly and only interested in lying on sofa watching cartoons, otherwise I wouldn't have time for all the ranting I am doing this weekend!

2wwmadness-your post exactly illustrates why nothing is ever black and white, and why we need to band together as a country and not try and knock each other.
Being a single parent can feel demeaning. I spent 1 year with ds as a baby on income support (my job pre-ds was totally undoable because of crazy hours) and it was a shock to suddenly realise that I had become, apparently, the scourge of the planet and the reason for the countries ills.
Amazingly (insert heavy sarcasm) I didn't immediately get given a "free" flat and a flatscreen TV on the birth of my bastard child. I am still waiting for those, and feel like ringing the Daily Mail to complain about raising my expectations!

IfNotNowThenWhen Sun 03-Feb-13 11:38:21

smile fail!

hoodoo12345 Sun 03-Feb-13 11:50:43

I am sick of the governments demonizing of the poor and vulnerable in this country.
In the last 2 years they have sent the UK back 10 years, i shudder to think what their plans are for the next 2 1/2 years.....

Skittish Sun 03-Feb-13 12:38:50

2Ww - but your situation is precisely what the welfare state is for - a short term safety net and a safety net I would fight to preserve. It is not and never should be a long term or permanent choice.

I do wish some people would realise that not all those who are vulnerable are poor and not all those poor are vulnerable.

PeppermintLatte Sun 03-Feb-13 12:55:49

shellyboob I never once said that it was a representative of the country, but it's certainly a representative of where I live, people want them out, even those in high paying stable jobs, as they are sensible enough to know that life is unpredictable and that they could very well need to lean on the state in the future. I will hold my hands up and say I'm being ignorant, I don't want to know if middle England or wherever are right behind the Tories, I need to believe they'll be out at the next election, and I honestly think they will, people will feel the full effects of the Tory government once UC kicks in, and I don't believe they have a hope in hell of getting in again after what's about to happen.

2wwmadness i'm so sorry for you situation, I've been there. Atleast under labour you'd have a safety net, we'll have to we if that's pulled from under us once UC kicks in...

Skittish Sun 03-Feb-13 13:17:05

So much naivety!

Labour would have made pretty much the same cuts. THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT. What distorted Utopia do some of you think we live in?

Labour had 13 years to close big business tax loopholes. They didn't. Why do you think that might be?

Labour had thirteen years to tax The Rich. They didn't. Again, why do you think that might be?

Labour had thirteen years to sort out the housing problem. They didn't. Why do you think that might be?

Labour had thirteen years to sort out minimum wages and ensure emplyers paid a minimum wage. They didn't. Now why do you think that might be?

The way some of you talk it's as if you have forgotten that the coalition has only just come to power.

PeppermintLatte Sun 03-Feb-13 13:24:37

Labour is the lesser of the evils, labour provide a safety net to those that fall on hard times, they are FAR from perfect but they seem to lend a hand to the most vulnerable.

Of course cuts need to be made, of course too much money was spent, but there must be other ways of getting this country out of the financial mess it is in, why must those who have nothing be made to suffer, because THAT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN UC COMES IN.

It remains to be seen just how bad things will get under UC, but from some of the proposals I predict hard times.

GrowSomeCress Sun 03-Feb-13 14:38:44

Skittish I think the champagne socialists on here are a bit too obsessed with screaming about the eeevil tory scum to actually consider that grin

2wwmadness Sun 03-Feb-13 15:07:43

You know what it's been the best thing that has ever happened to me because I see things from a different viewpoint. And the kindness people have shown me has made me see that at heart, most people are good. I think everyone should do a turn on benefits. I cringe at the amount of money I used to spend and waste. It's done we good.
I think that's the main point. It's not black and white. You arnt going to get a one size fits all system. And maybe rather than blanket cuts there could be more in depth system where it is different rates re circumstances? God knows how that could be put into practice. But it would be beneficial I also don't understand why more isnt done to give young people talks on self respect, morals and community spirit. Teach them how it feels to be proud to own out own things, that you have worked for and develop good relationships because they value themselves. I guess that's the parents job. But somewhere along the line things have gone wrong when it's deemed "easier" to live a life on benefits than work. I'm waffling. I guess my point is rather than take and cut from society, I can't see what the government is doing to put back in an grow a better society.

2wwmadness Sun 03-Feb-13 15:11:24

Ps I know there is different rates. I mean eg left school able bodied doesn't want to work has a cap of how many years they can be fully supported compared to similar circumstances to mine (I havnt even touched the sides of what I have paid in taxes over the years) gets less caps because I paid all my taxes for 20odd years- sorta thing

IfNotNowThenWhen Sun 03-Feb-13 15:33:00

Skittish, the New labour policies regarding banking regulation (or lack therof) we disgraceful, but they were only the exact same policies as the Tories, so had the Tories been in then nothing would have been different in that respect.

Having said that, this current government has CUT taxes for the rich and CUT corporation tax, and they have also made massive layoffs at HMRC, which is going to ultimately cost the country billions in the taxes they will not have the resources to claw back from avoiders.
So I guess they are notactually all that interested in narrowing the deficit..?

In 2008 there was a worldwide credit crash, which has affected nearly every country in the world. Every country needs to recover from this, but the Tories are going about it the wrong way.
When you cut this deep, and especially cut the extra spending potential of ordinary low income people you harm the economy further.
When you have people who have been made redundant working at Tesco for nothing you harm the prospects of people who would otherwise get real jobs there.

Aside from that, the VAST majority of unemployed benefit claimants are back in work within 1 year.
The number of long term out of work claimants is quite low actually.
Sorry to bother you with pesky facts, but fact it is.
This right wing bogeyman of the long term feckless unemployed is mostly myth and propaganda.

And... Champagne socialists! grin I fucking wish!

lazybastard Sun 03-Feb-13 15:39:29

Exactly skittish there is no money left so what is to be gained by introducing systems that cost more to administer, create more poverty and damages an already fragile economy.

NicholasTeakozy Sun 03-Feb-13 15:55:35

The cuts that Gidiot is making are going to end up costing us more, but that's ok as benefits and especially benefits for disabled people is privatised. What is being socialised is the debt and deficit.

To those who say there is no money left: do you know how money is created nowadays? Banks do it every day. If your loan application is successful they input the amount into an alphanumeric keyboard and hey presto! There is your new money.

MiniTheMinx Sun 03-Feb-13 16:53:12

>Labour would have made pretty much the same cuts. THERE IS NO MONEY LEFT.
>Labour had 13 years to close big business tax loopholes. They didn't.
>Labour had thirteen years to tax The Rich. They didn't.
>Labour had thirteen years to sort out the housing problem.
>Labour had thirteen years to sort out minimum wages and ensure emplyers paid a minimum wage.

>They didn't. Now why do you think that might be?

because of BLAIR, Blair was and still is proud to have carried on the neo-liberal project handed to him through Thatcher.

And why is there no money left?

because over the last 30 years productivity and profits rose, wages stagnated with the working class becoming increasingly impoverished, needing first two wages where once one would suffice and finally by taking out loans. AND why are they happy to allow us to become impoverished and indebted? because debt encumbered workers are docile.

Why are states in debt? because working people pay less in tax because they earn less and now rely on handouts to top up wages. Those who can pay do not pay because their money is off shore, or because corporations have no loyalty to nation states.

The neo-liberal agenda is bankrupting nation states, impoverishing workers, creating wars for resources, debt financed by states with the spoils going to the private sector.

sunflowersfollowthesun Sun 03-Feb-13 16:55:23

The 50% tax rate was cynically introduce a few weeks before labour were thrown out of office, specifically so they could howl about the tories looking out for their chums when they bought it back down again. They didn't deem it necessary at any other point of their imbecilic 14 year reign.
Yes there was a worldwide credit crash, but we should have been in much better shape to deal with it and would have been but for that idiot, Brown.

MiniTheMinx Sun 03-Feb-13 16:58:45


Yep 97% of all money in the worldwide economy is debt.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sun 03-Feb-13 17:39:17

Yeah, new labour were a bit shit. The tories are infinitly worse, because they are not only fucking us, they are enjoying fucking us.
Everything they are doing is absolutely calculated to destroy the welfare state and the NHS. I have lived in countries with no socialised medicine and no welfare state. It aint pretty.

And btw Mini, Tories abolished the minimum wage, New Labour brought it back in. Sorry, another fact again.

IfNotNowThenWhen Sun 03-Feb-13 17:41:12

"Yes there was a worldwide credit crash, but we should have been in much better shape to deal with it and would have been but for that idiot, Brown."

really?? You reckon George Osbourne would have had it all sorted and we wouldn't have crashed anyway??
[incredulous face]

MiniTheMinx Sun 03-Feb-13 18:16:06


It was taken direct from the post that Skittish made.

I think she probably meant pay workers a living wage.

Labour brought in NMW.....that's not the same as a living wage though is it smile

Skittish Sun 03-Feb-13 19:06:11

Apologies, I did indeed mean a living wage!

sunflowersfollowthesun Sun 03-Feb-13 22:40:21

It was a worldwide credit crash, we were always going to be caught up in it.
My point was that with the economy labour inherited we should have been in a far more secure position to weather the storm, and would have been if Brown/Blair hadn't wasted money, hand over fist, buying votes while they pretended they were financing hospitals/ schools, which in fact were PPI financed and selling off our gold reserves at rock bottom prices.
Personally, I feel they should be held criminally accountable for what they have done to this country and that Paul, the psychic octopus could have made a better job of it, never mind George Osbourne!

sunflowersfollowthesun Sun 03-Feb-13 22:55:29


NicholasTeakozy Mon 04-Feb-13 07:44:29

PFI was brought in by the John Major government, not New Labour. Also, Gordon Brown was advised to sell excess gold reserves by the then head of the Bank Of England.

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 08:52:24

What difference would it have made if we had the gold now? (we still have some by the way?)

And yes PFI was a Tory construct which they keep on using. They're not stopping them!

allgoingtoshitnow Mon 04-Feb-13 10:36:17

PFI under the Tories was a couple of billion.

PFI under Labour was near bankruptcy.

'Theres no money left' sums up Labours 13 years. And what to we have to show for it? Tax credits to those who dont need it, a country full of part timers thinking they fall into the 'hardworking families' bracket, and worst of all websites like MN full of entitled labour benefits claimants trying to write themselves out of the history of this mess. It wasn't 13 years of socialist idiocy got us here, its the 2 years of the Tories hmm

You are the problem folks.

Abra1d Mon 04-Feb-13 11:26:55

'they are not only fucking us, they are enjoying fucking us'

My husband is a Tory party member. Within two months of the general election he had lost his job as a direct result of the government's new policies. Which particular part of his long redundancy have we enjoyed, could you tell us?

He doesn't like his situation but he accepts the reality that the organization he was working in was unaffordable and not really fit for purpose. He would probably vote the same way again.

Nobody enjoys this. Get real.

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 13:25:03

PFI under the Tories was a couple of billion
Yes because they initiated it. The idiots labour carried it on and made it nigh on impossible to properly source cheaper alternatives by fiddling the guidance.
My point was that the Tories love PFI and would keep doing it and are carrying on with it so let's not pretend otherwise.

Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 16:55:17

*'Theres no money left' sums up Labours 13 years. And what to we have to show for it? Tax credits to those who dont need it, a country full of part timers thinking they fall into the 'hardworking families' bracket, and worst of all websites like MN full of entitled labour benefits claimants trying to write themselves out of the history of this mess. It wasn't 13 years of socialist idiocy got us here, its the 2 years of the Tories

You are the problem folks.*

Applauds very loudly indeed. I so agree. Know two families in my extended network who work 16 hours between them as a couple to get as much form TC as they can and still think they are entitled to the lifestyle we enjoy by working over 100.

They can fuck to the far side of fuck with that sense of entitlement, frankly. Thank god for the Tories.

MiniTheMinx Mon 04-Feb-13 17:12:18

Theres no money left because of neo-liberal economic policy. Labour is no different to Conservatives.

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 17:21:23

Applauds very loudly indeed. I so agree. Know two families in my extended network who work 16 hours between them as a couple to get as much form TC as they can and still think they are entitled to the lifestyle we enjoy by working over 100

And these people represent all benefit claimants do they?

The Tories can fuck off. They've got a PM who thinks its acceptable to charge the taxpayer for pruning his fucking wisteria?! But it's ok because he paid it back hmm

MiniTheMinx Mon 04-Feb-13 17:27:36

And an idiot who doesn't know the difference between debt and deficit or lies to the public about the debt (its increasing under the conservatives because of falling tax receipts and greater unemployment)

""Public sector net debt is a measure of how much the UK public sector owes at a given time. Public sector net borrowing is the difference between total accrued receipts and total accrued (current and capital) expenditure over a specified period; this measure is frequently used by commentators to summarise the extent of any public sector 'deficit'."

He added that he was sending a copy of the letter – with accompanying graphs setting out the relevant data – to Cameron's chief of staff, Ed Llewellyn.

The shadow chief secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves, said: "It is hugely embarrassing for David Cameron that he has had to have the difference between borrowing and debt explained to him by the chair of the UK Statistics Authority."

JakeBullet Mon 04-Feb-13 17:30:12

Yhe problem is skittish that you obviously feel this is representative of all benefits claimants and it isn't.

sunflowersfollowthesun Mon 04-Feb-13 17:44:58

In the hands of the tories, PFI was a tool to be used with restraint, labour with PFI was like letting kids loose in ToysRUs with your credit card.

sunflowersfollowthesun Mon 04-Feb-13 17:59:31

They've got a PM who thinks its acceptable to charge the taxpayer for pruning his fucking wisteria?

grin As opposed to the former Labour Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith, who merely paid for her husbands porn.

Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 18:22:23

Of course, taking us into an illegal and immoral many years long war is nothing compared with charging for wisteria trimming.

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 18:34:51

I'd forgotten the porn!
All as bad as each other. Although labour are the least worse IMO

Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 21:07:12


Lying to involve us in a long, bloody and illegal war is less palatable than making cutbacks because the country is teetering on bankruptcy?


Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 21:09:05

* more palatable. obviously!

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 21:09:42

The country isn't teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. You don't have an AAA or even an AA rating if you're on the edge.

Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 21:12:11

But Labour said there was no money left when they were soundly booted out handed over power!

Tell me they weren't telling fibbies! shock

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 21:14:28

You are aware that that letter is a tradition...? As in the outgoing chancellor always writes a similar letter to the incoming?


Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 21:18:17

Are you saying no cuts need to be made then? Or that labour wouldn't have mad any because there is no need?


When handing the reins from Tory to Labour that letter is indeed an ironic gesture. When vice versa, it's a depressing truth.

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 21:24:36

How do you make that leap? Are you not capable of reasonable rational thought?
Of course public spending needs cutting. But wailing about there being no money, that we're on the edge of bankruptcy, that we might be another Greece, that the world is doomed is just ridiculous.

Skittish Mon 04-Feb-13 21:34:03

Most Lefties refuse to accept that ANY cuts need to be made, sadly.

Iggly Mon 04-Feb-13 21:34:42

What makes you think I'm a leftie wink

LittleTyga Mon 04-Feb-13 22:32:39

I'll talk to you about cuts - we are as a nation spending more than we are raising in tax.

- Bring in the Robin Hood Tax
- Get huge International companies to pay more taxes
-close the loopholes and tax havens where billions of UK Tax money is languishing in an off shore accounts.

- Start building council houses for working families to live in paying a rent that is affordable for a family to live in. Lowering the Housing Benefit bill

- Higher wages. When IDS said 'Work Must Pay' I thought great! Wages will go up - NO Benefits come down! Tut Tut. Tax Credits go through the roof! If a family are getting £100 of Tax credits a month surely their employer could pay that? not the tax Payer?

The biggest part of the SS budget is pensions. Lets look at that shall we?

Sort all that out then we'll talk about cuts.

dreamingofsun Tue 05-Feb-13 08:57:32

little - perhaps you could answer a question ref wages i'v asked many times on MN and noone ever responds to. If the wages of the lowest paid go up in an organisation the people above them in the pay scale are going to want to keep that differential. Otherwise the company will find it hard to recruit at the higher level - people will do the lower responsibility jobs for the same pay.

And this will be reflected right up the pay scale. Supervisors will want more pay than the people who work for them.

This will result in inflation. Everything will cost more, so your increased pay will go on increased costs.

How do you propose stopping this happening?

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 09:41:59

Dreaming I haven't got time to look for hard figures but I'm sure I've read that the pay ratio from top to bottom is much bigger than it ever is, also some companies work with a lower one so it can be done.

I can't imagine thinking that I am worth x times more than those on NMWn so my earnings should go up accordingly- it's never even occurred to me.

Otherwise perhaps the people on the middle levels can be told to suck it up as those at the bottom are told?? It's ridiculous that companies that don't pay a living wage are effectively subsidised by the government to pay the workforce they need to make a profit.

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 09:42:29

bigger than it ever was sorry

allgoingtoshitnow Tue 05-Feb-13 10:52:37

Companies are subsidised by government because if not they will fuck off to China.

The reason why those at the top have got richer and those at the bottom poorer is because those at the top still have value while those at the bottom increasingly dont. The bottom (specifically NMW UK) are no longer an essential part of the machine. NMW China will do the job just as well, with less whining, and a lot cheaper.

In fact we dont have to go that far. NMW Poland or NMW Romania will come here and do the job so no need to even relocate the factories.

The UK workforce needs a firm kick up the behind. The Tories are getting everything into line so they can deliver it after watching in disgust as Labour hid our problems behind cheap credit and massive benefit payments. If you think the cuts are bad, wait till after 2015 when the Tories win a majority. The changes needed in this country havent even started, and Labour know it too - they wont reverse a thing.

dreamingofsun Tue 05-Feb-13 11:10:52

celtic - the company i work for has had an ongoing problem recruiting junior managers because the pay increase is so small and they no longer get overtime. Reduce that differential and the problem would only get worse. I have already sucked up no pay increase for the last 8 years, there's no way i'd suck up someone with less stress and responsibility earning the same as me. Its human nature.

allgoing - agree. And it was labour that welcomed the Polish and Romanians thus increasing the supply of people willing to work for NMW.

LittleTyga Tue 05-Feb-13 12:46:45

^This will result in inflation. Everything will cost more, so your increased pay will go on increased costs.

How do you propose stopping this happening?^

Reducing company profits - how can it be right that Tesco for instance can make Millions in profit but don't pay their staff an adequate wage?

And as an aside Labour did not welcome the Polish and Romanians - they had No choice we are part of Europe and our borders are open - Cameron will be doing the same thing in the New Year when the next arrivals descend from Bulgaria and Romania is it? on 1st Jan 2014. But yes this influx of cheap labour drives down salaries too sad

GiveMeSomeSpace Tue 05-Feb-13 13:05:14

LittleTyga re Tesco - It may not be fair, but it's what EVERYONE with a pension contributes to. Do you have a pension? If so do you know where your pension assets are invested? 99% of pension holders will not have a clue where they are invested, but a lot will still rant about horrible companies doing horrible things.

Anyone that has a pension will be a shareholder in Tesco and by demanding higher pension returns, all those pension holders are demamding those firms to be more profitable.

Yet again, it's easy to blame everyone else because it makes us feel better about ourselves.

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 13:22:35

AllGoing you are aware that NMW workers are people aren't you? with families, homes, needs to meet etc? Because the way you speak about them isn't very nice.

it's interesting the way the markets and global economic system are seen as a natural phenomenon that we can't do anything about but must feed the the beast. Since we have set up a system to manage and move money and encourage economic activity, my view is that if it isn't working for a large number of people eg the working poor, we need to change the system, not appease it at the expense of actual humans.

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 13:25:51

dreaming is the company profitable? If our can't attract workers that would indicate it is not paying market rates. If it needs to increase pay for the junior managers, that doesn't mean it shouldn't also pay a living wage to the basic earners. Your point is a good example of how workers look at each other and compare instead of looking at those who are really screwing them.

Skittish Tue 05-Feb-13 13:30:21

All this highlights just how vital it is to work hard at school/college, get skills, get a job - any job - get qualified and work your socks off.

Hopefully then, you won't have to do NMW jobs all your life.

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 13:38:08

But Skittish plenty of NMW jobs are absolutely vital. think of elderly care, would you like to be looked after by someone marking time until they can get something better or someone who wants to do the job, is qualified properly and can take care of their family on the wage?

We've got it completely wrong, the way we value a lot of work.

Skittish Tue 05-Feb-13 13:42:34

Yes, I agree actually. I would pay the full time working poor far more and make benefits and part time work far less financially attractive.

I have utmost respect for people working full time in low paid jobs.

But until those people are far better off financially than their non working neighbours there will always be high unemployment.

allgoingtoshitnow Tue 05-Feb-13 14:49:40

"Reducing company profits - how can it be right that Tesco for instance can make Millions in profit but don't pay their staff an adequate wage? "

They are being paid an adequate wage. They are shelf stackers!

I cant help with peoples delusions of grandeur but I can give advice on people spending within their means.

There are some NMW jobs that should be paid more, and this has happened because employers know workers are topped up with Browns tax credits, and that they have 200 applicants per job.

Oh and the control of European immigration under Labour was entirely controllable, just as they controlled it in most other popular countries. Labour just chose not to do so because they knew the Right were against it and they needed slave labour in the economy. Now their own voters cant get jobs. Fucking muppets.

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 15:05:59

An adequate wage is a living wage. How can you criticise people for finding life better on benefits if they can't feed their family on full time pay?

allgoingtoshitnow Tue 05-Feb-13 15:24:07

Living wage - that old chestnut. More money paid out means everything becomes more expensive and we are back to the same point, but now everyone is poorer except those on ever increasing benefits.

NMW was a living wage until tax credits went mad. It will become a living wage again when they are pinned back (in UC form) and hopefully removed from all except the most vulnerable. It was nice to feel well off for a time as we spent all that borrowed cash, but we're not really well off at all as a country today.

CelticPromise Tue 05-Feb-13 15:35:33

How will NMW become a living wage again (not that I believe it ever was)? It's not just tax credits, it's housing benefit and others too. Are housing costs going to come down? Of course not.

lazybastard Tue 05-Feb-13 19:07:39

Oh I'm not worth anything? Thank you very much how very kind of you. Tell me please when did I stop being a human being?

BTW I did stick in at school and get qualifications then got more, fat lot of use they have been. Then when I try and retrain to avoid a whole life on NMW I am accused of being selfish and getting above my station. Can't have it both ways you know.

NicholasTeakozy Tue 05-Feb-13 20:35:41

Wages have shrunk in the last twenty years. As an example, in 1992/3 I worked as a press operator supplying the motor industry. My hourly rate was £6.92 plus 17.5% shift allowance (if we worked shifts, which we did most of the time), so £8.13ph. The same job now, at the same site is £6.19ph. A friend who is a supervisor/setter is only just earning a few pence more per hour now than I did for less responsibility twenty years ago.

LittleTyga Tue 05-Feb-13 22:23:03

That's right Nicholas - I work in recruitment and I'm working on the same salaries as I did 20 years ago.

lazybastard Tue 05-Feb-13 23:57:49

Allgo you quite clearly haven't a clue what it is like to end up on benefits. You are not rich, it is stressful and humiliating. I have had stressful jobs in the past and my current job can be quite stressful but nothing compares with the stress of being on benefits. Or the pain of ending up on benefits, it actually starts to hurt when you haven't eaten for over 36 hrs.

ProtegeMoi Wed 06-Feb-13 02:08:28

I am another who would never vote Tory after what they are doing to the disabled.

Yes we are in a recession, yes we need to cut back, yes SOME people can't be bothered to work but cutting services, funding and benefits for those living with severe lifetime disabilities is beyond anything I can understand.

The very people that should be looked after, the reason why a safety net should exist. It isn't the false benefit claimants being targeted its the vulnerable disabled people and their carers.

GiveMeSomeSpace Wed 06-Feb-13 09:24:53

Again - Calling LittleTyga - do you have a pension?

allgoingtoshitnow Wed 06-Feb-13 09:44:11

"Wages have shrunk in the last twenty years"

Yes they have and they will shrink a lot further yet until we can compete globally. (or until a party gets into power and closes our borders to globalisation)

This doesnt mean the taxpayer should top up the difference.

Crawling Wed 06-Feb-13 09:44:11

Tory are scum that sums up my feelings perfectly.

LittleTyga Wed 06-Feb-13 12:45:59

Sorry GiveMe

No I don't have a pension - I have paid in to two in the past and both companies went bust taking my contributions with them. I work 3 jobs, pay all my taxes and have single handedly raised two children and I still can't afford to pay in to a pension so I'll just be working until I drop!

lazybastard Wed 06-Feb-13 12:52:44

I pay into a pension. Not sure why though, never going to be able to retire.

CelticPromise Wed 06-Feb-13 16:01:35

allgoing how far do you think we should go to compete? How far should the living standards of the poor be allowed to fall?

lazybastard Wed 06-Feb-13 16:33:25

Rock bottom Celtic I'm sure. After all we are worthless. Perhaps we should bring back workhouses and exist on a slice of bread and a little water before being tossed prematurely into a mass unmarked grave. After all we don't actually count as human beings.

CelticPromise Wed 06-Feb-13 19:13:25

Frightening isn't it Lazy? I suppose the only way you can convince yourself it's fair for people to be treated so badly is by believing they are in some way inferior to you, you could never be in their situation and they must somehow deserve it. How else could you think it's ok?

Beautifulbabyboy Wed 06-Feb-13 19:26:59

All going to shit now - god you really are horrid aren't you. Not very clever and horrible as well, what a winning combination.

Lazy - you have it right with the workhouse aim. That is what the regressive conservatives want. What always makes me laugh is that people like all going to shit have no idea that they are only a few unfortunate circumstances away from hell.

MechanicalTheatre Wed 06-Feb-13 19:33:34

I actually think some Tories wouldn't mind the workhouse being brought back. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, innit. They don't seem to understand how hard that is when you are born into bad circumstances. People don't even have the notion that they could achieve - why would they when they've been told they're thick lazy scroungers their whole lives?

Beautifulbabyboy Wed 06-Feb-13 19:48:53

SKITTISH - "The Rich Who Must Pay More are always those earning more than the person demanding they do so."

Now Skittish try that out on me!!! I say the rich must pay more, and my family is in the very top of the top 1%.

You, and your fellow little "Tories" have no idea how often we are offered tax breaks for this, tax breaks for that, offshore plans here and there. You have no idea how the system is working and YET, you would fight for me get even richer!!!

I would like to add we always turn down these options. The Rich can easily pay more. AND I say that as one of them.

Bowlersarm Wed 06-Feb-13 19:59:35

Hmmm beautiful how lovely you are. "You, and your fellow "little" Tories" . Nice. Condescending? Not much

allgoingtoshitnow Wed 06-Feb-13 20:00:53

If the truth is disturbing to you Beautifulbabyboy, suggest you head off to netmums.

The fact is, the UK 'poor' arent the precious disadvantaged snowflakes they have been brought up to believe they are. The futures isnt bright, and it certainly involves a lot more hours picking in the fields shoulder to shoulder with immigrants, and a lot fewer tax credit funded holidays abroad.

Beautifulbabyboy Wed 06-Feb-13 20:01:22

Condescending is the nicest thing I can be. :-)

Bowlersarm Wed 06-Feb-13 20:02:17

In life? Or on this thread?

MechanicalTheatre Wed 06-Feb-13 20:03:18

Yes, allgoingtoshitnow you are such a truth-speaker. They should get you on the telly so you can tell everyone the truth about everything.

allgoingtoshitnow Wed 06-Feb-13 20:09:05

" say the rich must pay more, and my family is in the very top of the top 1%"

So your DH earns it then. Does he know you are being so generous with your money?

Beautifulbabyboy Wed 06-Feb-13 20:15:14

Ha ha ha. It can't be mine can it skittish....noooo because that would really upset you wouldn't it? Ha ha - am chuckling now.

Oh and the very fact you see it (wrongly) as my dh's money just goes to show how far apart we are morally. I am a team player. Money is only one thing a person brings to the table. In my family we are a team.

allgoingtoshitnow Wed 06-Feb-13 20:18:20

Its a good job you are a team player Beautifulbabyboy, because if you decided to go it alone your DH would be truly fucked.

Beautifulbabyboy Wed 06-Feb-13 20:43:10

School girl error, I got dragged into petty warfare. All I was trying to say is that the rich are not paying their fair way, the burden is falling on the working poor, and it saddens me.

allgoingtoshitnow Wed 06-Feb-13 20:50:21

Oddly enough thats not what the IFS say.

"The IFS points out tax and benefit changes since the beginning of the Parliament will 'hit the richest households hardest', and changes this April will benefit working households."

Hope your DH is working lots of overtime.

JakeBullet Wed 06-Feb-13 20:52:54

Snorting at "tax credit funded holidays abroad"! I wish......mine goes "in the pot" to feed, clothe and care for DS. It keeps the roof over our head and allows us to be warm. It certainly doesn't stretch to holidays ...not in the UK or abroad.
No holidau since in laws paid for us to go abroad as a treat three years ago.
So yes these cuts scare prices are increasing, petrol costs increasing, food costs are increasing so money doesn't stretch to many luxuries.
My luxuries are the internet £20 pm including phone. Thats about it.....I dont smoke and rarely drink alcohol unless I am given wine.

lazybastard Wed 06-Feb-13 21:27:23

Allgo with every post you offer more proof that you know nothing about the lives of others. I can assure you I haven't spent a penny on holidays abroad, we don't go on any holiday at all. We don't even have passports. So please don't complain I spend too much on something I don't spend a single penny on.

More importantly stop implying that the low paid don't work hard. The majority work very hard.

NicholasTeakozy Wed 06-Feb-13 21:43:28


Oh dear. Quoting the IFS to prove your point. I can do that too. The IFS have said that Gidiot has got to raise taxes to cover the £64Bn extra that his policies will cost. In one year.

Gidiot inherited an economy that was growing and has deliberately tanked it for Tory ideology. Any company director who did the same would be given a massive bonus arrested.

lazybastard Thu 07-Feb-13 11:23:57

Out of interest, just how much DO you have to earn before you can be considered a worthwhile member of society?

JakeBullet Thu 07-Feb-13 14:28:12

Well then lazybastard it would seem you have to earn enough NOT to need any tax credits or other benefits. So er.....lets see, if we include child benefit then you need to earn enough to be in
the HR tax bracket. Otherwise you is a scrounger innit?

lazybastard Thu 07-Feb-13 17:53:18

Well then we get rid of everyone earning less than 50k and chuck them in the workhouse 1880s style. Separate 70 beded wards for the different sexes. No fraternisation between sexes. Allow one bath a month sharing the bath and toilet with all 70, and water with 5. One slice of bread and water twice daily will make everything much more pleasant for the better people.

After all nurses, teachers, paramedics, junior and middle grade doctors, police officers etc do absolutely nothing for society.

JakeBullet Thu 07-Feb-13 18:02:31

Yep....that appears about the size of it apparently sad

Contribution to society is about finance and nowt else from what I can see on here.

The fact that we can contribute in many non financial ways is nothing to some people. I am a volunteer and consider I provide a valuable contribution in addition to my caring responsibilities. There are some here though who might well say I should be working in that time.

allgoingtoshitnow Thu 07-Feb-13 19:23:23

"Out of interest, just how much DO you have to earn before you can be considered a worthwhile member of society? "

It has nothing to do with finance and everything to do with self sufficiency and self respect.

The welfare system was designed as a safety net to catch people and help them get back on their feet. It was never intended to be an endless subsidy to part timers. This is what tax credits are - a vote winner for muppet socialists.

I wonder what entitled whiners did before Brown brought tax credits in? Oh I know - they lived within their means and worked a full week. Now they live within their means plus tax credits and work less hours. I guess it lets them come onto MN and scream blue murder at the baby eating Tories.

Child benefit was a universal benefit and everyone got it. It meant that the productive members of society who were paying for the welfare system felt they were getting something back. But no more thanks to welfare overspend on the more deserving.

JakeBullet Thu 07-Feb-13 19:40:49

I am guessing then that all the anti tax credit folk nobly handed theirs back...


Tax credits were there to top up crap wages....not for votes....I certainly did not vote Labour in the last election and I am a right vote CAN be bought....I have voted for all three of the major parties at one time or another.

Whatever happens there has to be a way in which low paid workers can live. I didn't consider tax credits when reducing my hours......they were the last thing on my mind. I looked at my salary and thought "can I live on this amount". As it happens it was hard even with my £40 tax credit top up per month. Only now I am out of work do I get a significant sum of tax credit ...and to get that significant sum I needed a disabled child. It's NOTHING to what I was earning though.

I am sure there ARE some who did look at how much they could claim but it's not representative of most people.

I agree it's a safety net.....and it's now supporting me and my son but I am dreading cuts and the increase in living costs because going back to work is not an option for me at the moment although it may well be in the future.

Like it or not people judge, they judge all the time and they judge me for being a single mother and for being out of work.

lazybastard Thu 07-Feb-13 21:42:53

How fucking dare you call me an entitled whiner.

I will explain again for those who cannot comprehend anything that does not directly fit with their prejudices. I worked full time for years then I was made redundant, didn't claim a penny. Six months later I was still unemployed so jumped at the chance of a part time job. I thought it was preferable to nothing (apparently not).

I continued job hunting, either for a full time one or second part time one. A year on no luck so I have added studying to working and job hunting to try and increase my chances. Apparently this makes me selfish and irresponsible.

In this time of me job hunting DH was made redundant too which pushed us over the edge financially and led us to claiming CTC to avoid homelessness.

Allgo you have more money than me, you may be more educated than me, more inteligent than me perhaps but it doesn't give you the right to call me lazy and accuse me of having no sense of responsibility because it is not true. I am NOT lazy.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 07-Feb-13 21:46:17

"they lived within their means and worked a full week"

Snort - yeah, no-one ever accused anyone of being dole scum before Labour got in. Oh except for like the whole of the 70s and 80s, obv.

Some of you people just make up "facts" to fit in with the drivel you read in the Daily Mail. It is impossible to have a reasoned debate with you.

CelticPromise Thu 07-Feb-13 22:38:50

allgoing do you think child benefit should have remained universal? Doesn't seem to sit well with your views.

Would you care to answer my question above?

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