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To be bloody furious with 5yo dd, and be on the verge of tears over this?

(564 Posts)
Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 17:39:25

I'm so angry! Been feeling like this since i picked up dd from school, and i'm just getting angrier with her.

Last month, i sent her into school with a week's dinner money in her new purse. Comes out at hometime telling me i forgot to give her dinner money. The purse is gone, as is the money. No one's seen it nor handed it in. So the teacher told me the school made her up a little sandwich for free.

I've told dd she's not allowed school dinners again, and will have to take packed lunches. She's upset about this because school dinners sit separately from packed lunches, and her 'best friend' is always school dinner.

Today she had P.E. I sent her in with her kit and new shoes.

She comes out at hometime saying i forgot to pack her p.e. kit. Everything was missing. Finally managed to track down her shorts and top in the classroom but her new shoes are gone (they cost me £25!). She says she lost them before P.E and she had to do it in her school hard shoes instead.

I've now had to go and buy a cheap pair of trainers for £5 from ASDA, which don't fit properly because she's a half size, and i had to go into my food budget for them.

She just doesn't give a shit. She has ASD and she just keeps saying 'oh well. never mind. we'll just buy new ones.'

I honestly feel like punching a wall. I realise i'm being totally irrational, but it's the lying that accompanies the losing stuff which pisses me off most. Her teacher claims dd told her that i forgot to pack her gym stuff today. DD also told them last time i gave her no dinner money. In the school's eyes - it's me that's forgetting stuff, not DD.

Since she started school, she's managed to lose a tie, a pair of glasses, a pair of gym shoes, a filled pencil case, her dinner money and purse, her new trainers, her blazer. And i've only got half of the stuff back, despite it being labelled.

Argh! She's in the next room loudly drawing a picture and saying to herself, "This will sure cheer mummy up! Her favourite - a butterfly!"

Dreading her coming in to give me it, because i'm really still angry with her and i'll end up hurting her feelings.

I'm at the end of my tether with her. I can't keep buying her replacement stuff, but what other choice do i have? She NEEDS a tie, she NEEDS a blazer etc etc etc. I'm just so angry with her!

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 17:42:06

She's 5. Why are you giving her a weeks worth of dinner money?

Sirzy Thu 31-Jan-13 17:42:45

She is 5 and she has ASD, it seems you are being quite unrealistic in your expectations.

KenLeeeeeee Thu 31-Jan-13 17:43:10

It can't have just evaporated into thin air, it must be in school somewhere. Can you ask to speak to the teacher for some support with this? My ds2* is 6yo and a bugger for losing or wrecking stuff within seconds of having it handed to him. I'm working closely with his teacher to make sure that she and I both know what he has with him so we can minimise what he loses.

*He's undergoing assessment for ASD too so I wonder if the two are connected?

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 17:44:23

She has ASD and she's 5. She will probably be forgetful (more than a NT 5 year old). It seems a bit mean to be so disproportionately angry with her.

How do you know that someone hasn't been into her things and taken stuff for a start? And also I have never heard of anyone entrusting a weeks worth of dinner money to a 5 year old. Surely it is your responsibility to get that paid to the office?

gordyslovesheep Thu 31-Jan-13 17:44:27

kids loose stuff - mine have lost about 14 cardies this year, 1 pair of trainers, 1 swimming kit and lots of tights - I never spend money of stuff for school

she is FIVE not 15 - pay the school yourself and only EVER buy cheap trainers

YABU although I would ask school to make sure she puts stuff safely away

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 17:44:46

Rather than coins each day, i gave her £10 on a Monday instead. As the school advises.

Catsdontcare Thu 31-Jan-13 17:45:07

I think you need to take a step back and calm. I have a five year old with asd and wouldn't send him with his own lunch money.

You need to speak to her teacher about supporting her to keep hold of her stuff.

Feel quite sorry for her tbh.

OK. Deep breath. Take the butterfly picture say thank you warmly and nicely.

For everything else, post here.

justmyview Thu 31-Jan-13 17:45:51

She's only 5. I'd suggest cut her some slack

reward charts for looking after gear?

FeistyLass Thu 31-Jan-13 17:46:07

I can understand why it's difficult but I'd try to hand items over to the teacher or classroom assistant instead.
It does seem like a lot to lose so I'd also check that she isn't being bullied and having stuff taken from her. Sorry if that's all obvious and you've already tried it.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 17:46:27

The office doesn't take the money. Parents are advised to give the children it to keep in a safe place, to teach them to be in charge of their own money and put it on their dinner cards themselves.

It's costing me a fortune and she just doesn't care.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OhIWishThereWasABook Thu 31-Jan-13 17:46:43

You are being abu really. Take a deep breath. I was cross with my 12 yr old for losing stuff, that's what five yr olds do I'm afraid. She seems to have to look after a lot if expensive stuff for her age- buy cheep for now, label label label and hand in stuff to office/teaching staff. It is annoying but not the end of the world. Ps don't forget lost property has loads if stuff in it. I work in yr 1 and I've seen it!!!

When DS was 5 I paid his dinner money straight to the office as there's no way he'd remember it. When he lost something I'd ask the TA if I could come into the school and hunt around for it - we usually found it together. Everything was labelled, so it turned up in the end. I didn't replace anything. DS doesn't have ASD and he still loses stuff all the time. It's just normal - they need a lot of help with remembering stuff and finding stuff until they're.... oh I dunno, but I hope it ends soon smile

AgentZigzag Thu 31-Jan-13 17:46:56

I think you are overreacting a bit here, you've given her far too much responsibility, even for a 5 YO who doesn't have ASD.

I would be annoyed, but furious is taking it too far.

Why didn't you pay online with the school dinners? Or take it in yourself?

Your DD can't take all the responsibility for what happens to her uniform and things at school, stuff gets lost, it's a fact of life for even the most sensible older children.

It's so lovely she's trying to cheer you up by drawing a picture, but that shouldn't be her responsibility either.

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 17:47:06

I'd question the school's dinner money policy then.

Pagwatch Thu 31-Jan-13 17:47:26

You are expecting her to cope with things beyond her ability.
It is frustrating, of course it is.

But she simply isn't developmentally able to take responsibility for the things you are expecting of her.
You have to take a step back.
Go and talk to the school.
It's not her fault.

Her comments 'oh well never mind, let's get new ones' is simply a sign that she doesn't understand the consequences. not her fault

skullcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 17:47:37

shes 5, why are you giving her so much responsibility?

My kids dinner money is taken in and handed straight to the teacher who records the amount and the date paid.

Their gym kit which is all generic and CHEAP and labelled, is all kept in a kit bag hung on their peg.. its taken in on monday and bought home on friday.. i check it to make sure all the kit is there.

Why did she take a filled pencil case in? she shouldnt need one, the school should be supplying stationary at this stage.

I understand why you are frustrated and fed up. Especially if money is tight and you are having to buy stuff twice. You know she is not doing it on purpose but it is still hard to take.

Some thoughts
1 - is she definitely losing them or is someone taking them as that is quite a lot of stuff to go missing?

2- could the school send around a note asking everyone to check labels etc. or could you send an email around the parents if you have a list (we get a fair number of "have you got X's shoe" emails from parents at the DC's school)?

3 - Do you know anyone who has second hand uniform you could buy e.g. a blazer that has been grown out of?

4. With things like dinner money and P.E. kit is there a home / school book where you could put a note with the date so say 31/01/13 - PE kit sent in etc. I usually put a note in the message book when I send back a reply slip so when the school chase 3 days later I can say check the book I sent it in on Tuesday.

AppleOgies Thu 31-Jan-13 17:47:52

Oh dear. She's 5. I think you're expecting too much of her. Is there anyway the school can help? Handing money directly to them. What did the school suggest?

coraltoes Thu 31-Jan-13 17:47:58

My first instinct was kids are taking her things, have you ruled that out?
Pay school secretary yourself on Mondays ffs, and eliminate the midde man. She is a kid, with ASD you are the adult here, grow up.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Samnella Thu 31-Jan-13 17:48:12

YABU. She is 5. And she has ASD. But I understand your

Hand the dinner money into the office yourself.
Buy cheap trainers not £25 ones as you just know what will happen.
The school should rethink the uniform policy. A blazer and tie at 5? Why?
Pencil case? Again she shouldn't need to take this in.

Basically buy the minimum for as little as possible and label. Hand any money or important forms in your self to the office. I say this after losing several PE kits and school jumpers over the years.

AgentZigzag Thu 31-Jan-13 17:48:17

Your DDs school advises giving £10 to 5 YO children to hand in themselves and refuses any other way?


How very odd.

She doesn't care because 'caring' about others feeling is hard for her. She has ASD.

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Thu 31-Jan-13 17:48:49

She's 5. She has ASD. You need to step back a little and think again. Part of ASD means you have trouble organising yourself and I think you need to cut her some slack. What measures are in place to help her at school with organisational skills?

FeistyLass Thu 31-Jan-13 17:49:37

Also, KenLeee is right. It probably is in the school somewhere so have a chat with the teacher about how they manage lost property. My nephew lost his jacket during the first week of primary one. The teacher and playground monitor were very off-hand about it. His dm had to go to the school 3 times before they found it but it was there (as was a whole pile of other stuff that children had misplaced!).

AppleOgies Thu 31-Jan-13 17:50:05

It's not that 'she doesn't care'... She's little. Speak to the school.

skullcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 17:50:06

she has ASD, she obviously isnt capable of taking care of her own money, this needs addressing with the school to support her. Give it to her teacher to look after fgs. use some initiative with the school instead of blaming your ASD 5yo dd!

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 17:50:08

She's a half size which is why i had to go to a slightly more expensive shop for trainers. She's been reminded constantly what stuff she's got in her bag. Every hometime, we don't leave the yard until we've checked everything's there.

I've looked myself in the classrooms/gym hall etc.

It doesn't help that the teacher believes dd over me.

Today she said to me, "Why don't you have another look at home - just to make sure you definitely did pack them. If not there, we'll look again tomorrow."

I packed her bag lastnight, showed dd.

I double checked this morning, reminded dd.

In the line at 9am, i opened dd's bag, and reminded her a final time what was in her bag.

It's not that she doesn't care. She doesn't understand. I know it must be incredibly frustrating but please try not to be angry with her.

The school should be working with you to help her with the routine of handing dinner money in and keeping her PE stuff together.

combinearvester Thu 31-Jan-13 17:50:56

Some people with ASD find organising and prioritising things difficult. This should have been explained to you on diagnosis. There are strategies you can put together to help her with this. School can and imo should be giving extra assistance with stuff like this - does she have a learning support assistant / statement / SENCO etc.

However you were mad to give any 5 year old weeks worth of dinner money.Send school a cheque / take it in yourself.

A five year old can also have no concept of the cost of things / what losing stuff may mean to an adult. A 5 year old with ASD especially so.

I think you might need specialist advice on her ASD / parenting a child with ASD.

Letmeintroducemyself Thu 31-Jan-13 17:50:56

ds school same - he is only in reception and is expected to be responsible for his own dinner money.

I give it to him in an envelope with his name on everyday - its £1.90 - if I give him £2 I never see the change.

Coconutty Thu 31-Jan-13 17:51:17

Uabvu she's 5 with SEN. Have you discussed this issue with the school? I'm sure they will be happy to help her get organised. I always look out for the SEN kids I work with, the entire lost property room is always full of their stuff.

Giving your DD a tenner and being cross with her when it goes missing is ridiculous.

Take the picture she'd done for you and go give her a cuddle.

tinierclanger Thu 31-Jan-13 17:51:31

She's FIVE.

Your expectations are way off. Also, I'm really surprised the school would have a policy of expecting small children to handle significant amounts of money - I would question that with them.

Samnella Thu 31-Jan-13 17:51:45

Just read the bit about the school not accepting the money. That is stupid and I would speak to them. And even say if that's their policy you expect them to provide a free meal on the occasions your 5 year old loses her money. They are being ridiculous. We use Parent Pay for school dinners so you pay online maybe suggest that to them. Get them to change the fussy uniform whilst they are at it. smile

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 17:52:30

And YABU to be on the verge of tears over your poor ASD dd who is only 5 and cannot help being forgetful.

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 17:52:37

She's five years old - of course she loses things!

You need to find an alternative way to pay dinner money - speak to the school.
5 year olds don't need expensive trainers for PE - get her some cheap daps.

How is she losing stuff between leaving you in the playground and getting into the classroom? And why is nothing turning up despite being labelled? I think you need to investigate a bit further with the school.

WowOoo Thu 31-Jan-13 17:52:56

I'd never trust my almost 7 yr old with money. It must be really annoying to have a system like that. i bet if you asked and explained they would tell you about the alternative arrangements.

Oh, please don't be angry with her. She can't be fully trusted with money yet and you'll have to help her if you don't want to lose more.

Be angry with yourself, but make some changes so that this doesn't happen again.

I agree with others that you are being unreasonable - but I feel for you, you sound very stressed. Is this just the tip of an iceburg of feelings for you? It must be very hard and worrying to parent a child with ASD.

thebody Thu 31-Jan-13 17:53:18

You must be crazy to expect ANY 5 year old to be trusted with a weeks dinner money?

I am a TA in reception and spend a lot of my time tracing lost coats, or kits etc. it will be about. The kids get changed by each other and often scoop each others things into their bags.

Sometimes parents don't bring them back.

You need to calm the fuck down love, this is your fault not hers. She's a baby and if you are really this angry you need help. Seriously!

Don't ever spend £25 on school shoes. I wouldn't. Buy cheap.

March to lost property and just get an unmarked replacement kit, wash label it as yours.

And again calm down...

DoItToJulia Thu 31-Jan-13 17:53:39

What a crap school dinner money policy for such young kids.

Poor dd and poor you. You Abu as you are the adult and she is 5.

You need to discuss these matters with the school. She has specific needs and they must be addressed. There will be solutions to your problems, but they will involve you approaching the school and being kind to your still very small daughter.

CloudsAndTrees Thu 31-Jan-13 17:54:13

If what you are saying about the school is true, you need to find another one. The problem is with them, not your daughter.

Letmeintroducemyself Thu 31-Jan-13 17:54:38

I've cross posts so I'll say it again - ds school has same system 're money and he is in reception

XBenedict Thu 31-Jan-13 17:54:42

She's only 5 sad

I think I would be approaching the school and saying I WILL be handing in her dinner money into the office as, while you appreciate them wanting to encourage responsibility and independence, money has gone missing and you're not prepared to take the risk of this happening again.

DiamondDoris Thu 31-Jan-13 17:54:52

It's horrible when you have to replace lost things BUT I wouldn't give my DS school dinner money - he's got autistic traits and learning disabilities and he's 61/2. - plus he loses things all the time - not his fault.

MaryPoppinsBag Thu 31-Jan-13 17:55:15


Why on earth buy £25 shoes for P.E

You can get cheap plimsols from Asda/ Tesco for a few quid. Or get her feet measured and have them fitted at a Clarks for only a little bit more.

Have you spoken to the teacher?

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 17:55:19

How about handing her money and PE kit directly to the TA in the morning instead of your DD taking it in?

cloutiedumpling Thu 31-Jan-13 17:56:09

We have to give our five year old DS all his dinner money for a week on a Monday morning. The school will only accept dinner money on that day. No idea why, but I don't think it is that unusual.

My DS keeps on losing things too. It is very annoying. And expensive. The only thing I've found recently that seems to help is to make him realise there will be consequences if he forgets things. So, he now has to wear his old mittens if he has forgotten his "big boy" gloves the day before. He thinks his old mittens are the sort of thing that a baby wears and he hasn't lost his gloves quite so often since I made him wear them. If he lost his PE kit I'd probably make him wear something like a Thomas the Tank Engine t shirt that he thought was a bit babyish for the next week. Might sound a bit harsh but it does seem to help.

skullcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 17:56:24

half size? dont be so bloody precious, they're for PE, not for hiking. cheap ones in a full size that are a bit big are not going to hurt.

keep the expensive, well fitting shoes for home.

Bakingtins Thu 31-Jan-13 17:56:37

Giving a 5 yr old £10 is madness - pay the office yourself. The kit is more problematic. I'd replace it with second hand stuff if the school sell it and say she can't have new things until she can look after them. What are school saying about it? Are you sure someone isn't maliciously taking her things? I understand they have thirty kids to deal with but 5 yr olds need some help getting their stuff together, ASD or not.
Start teaching her the value of money - we give DS, 6, virtual pocket money of £1 a week on Roosterbank, then if he wants something he has to save for it. It is helping him understand how much the toys he wants cost, and that you can't spend money twice.

wooliebearsrule Thu 31-Jan-13 17:56:38

that is FAR too much for a 5yr old to look after. none of mine at that age would have been able to be trusted with £10 to last for a weeks worth of lunch.

XBenedict Thu 31-Jan-13 17:57:10

Oh and as for all the other stuff that's gone missing - it's so bloody frustrating isn't it? Our school keep sending home notes saying please label your DCs kit - even that goes missing. angry

MunchkinsMumof2 Thu 31-Jan-13 17:57:18

YABVU Good God woman,she is tiny and autistic! You expect waaaaaaay too much from her, thank her for the picture,forgive her for losing things and just be more thoughtful about her needs.

FeistyLass Thu 31-Jan-13 17:57:25

The attitude of the teacher sounds odd. Why on earth would she believe dd over you? confused As others have said, do the school know that your dd needs extra support? If the teacher is always so unhelpful, I'd be having a meeting with the head to put processes in place to help your dd.

Pandemoniaa Thu 31-Jan-13 17:57:40

You sound at the end of your tether and I'm wondering whether these two incidents are the tip of the iceberg. Because I'm sure that you realise you are being U in expecting someone as young as 5 and with ASD to be responsible for large sums of money. She also seems to have an awful lot of uniform to remember.

So as others have said, please talk to the school and explain that your dd needs extra help and support.

That policy is shit for a start.

Ask the teacher why things keep going missing when your dd is in her care.

But, FFS, stop expecting so much of a five year old with ASD!!!

drjohnsonscat Thu 31-Jan-13 17:58:03

This is school's problem, surely? Their dinner money policy is daft.

I know that's not helpful but perhaps you should go and see school and come up with an alternative arrangement that takes into account her ASD (if you need an extra reason - the fact that she's five should suffice but clearly the school have not made the right arrangemnets available for five year olds to date).

JaponicaTroggs Thu 31-Jan-13 17:58:15

As a parent of an autistic child I understand how frustrated you feel but unfortunately you are just at the beginning of a steep learning curve. You cannot let you DD take responsibilty for things like money, It's guaranteed to end in disaster.
My DS is now 14 and at a special school and losing things is still a daily occurence. He has the organisational skills of a gnat. He still has the same "oh well" attitude. Do you have a statement/IEP? It sounds like the school should be helping her with this sort of thing.
Your dd is so little and can't cope with all that information in her head. They don't have room to remember give teacher money, pick my shoes up etc. Just coping with the world is hard enough for them.

Today she said to me, "Why don't you have another look at home - just to make sure you definitely did pack them. If not there, we'll look again tomorrow." - this doesn't mean that the teacher 'believes DD over you'. Chill. Say 'Yes'. The next day say 'Just as I thought it definitely did go to school, no chance of a mistake, please can you look again?'

I'm sorry you feel so upset, but this isn't your DD's problem, these are your feelings not hers. Do you have support with parenting her? Are there other sources oam, i opened dd's bag, and reminded her a final time what was in her bag.^ you're taking

MiniEggsinJanuary Thu 31-Jan-13 17:59:06

She's five!!!! Don't the school take more responsibility for the children's belongings?

LtEveDallas Thu 31-Jan-13 17:59:27

My DD is 7, nearly 8. She is NT. I wouldn't trust her with a tenner, not at all. She's also lost 3 named school sweatshirts, a lunch box, two white T Shirts and god knows how many pairs of gloves.

It's normal. DD is normal. Your DD is normal.

Unclench. Calm down and accept that a five year old just cannot have that sort of responsibility, seriously hon, they can't.

DiamondDoris Thu 31-Jan-13 17:59:28

Also, don't worry what the school might think of you - they probably are not thinking you are a bad mum! My DS went to school in his wee-soaked nappy (he wets the bed) - I'd put his trousers on in a hurry. I thought, good grief what must the teachers think of me??? But honestly I'm sure they understand - they know my DS and can probably guess what he's like in the mornings.

Ignore the last bit of post! I meant to ask 'Are there other sources of stress on you?' and then I was going to say about you helping your DD know what was in her bag and ask how she reacted when you were doing that. But it posted while I was still typing...

Shakirasma Thu 31-Jan-13 18:00:50


How long has she being diagnosed? What have you done to learn about and research her condition?

I am thinking not a lot tbh because you are irrationally angry at her for things you should know she cannot help, and your expectations of her are ridiculous.

As a parent who also has a 5yo with ASD, my heart breaks for her.

Yfronts Thu 31-Jan-13 18:01:56

Is everything labeled?

Talk to the teacher and highlight the problem.

Agree with keeping her on packed lunch this week and everything she mentiones it explain why calmly.

Replace any item with second hand from the office.

Agree with handing the money in yourself. Explain that you are not risking her losing it again.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 18:05:21

Argh! I can't stop crying! I'm actually shaking with anger.

Took the picture, said thanks. She's now next door writing me a letter. Shouting through, "How do you spell 'promise' 'never' 'lose' etc.

Okay, she's just come in with it. "I promise i will never lose my stuff again."

I gave her a cuddle and said sorry. Then she said, quite cheerily, "It's okay, you bought me new ones. I don't need to find the other ones now."

I feel like screaming! Had to ask her to go and play in her room for ten minutes.

She doesn't have a statement/assistant or anything, but a learning support plan. And a weekly visit from SALT. Her learning is fine. It's just stupid things like losing stuff that's the problem.

Her teacher's lovely and will happily go and look for things each day when i send dd back inside.

We don't have an online system for school money.

It's the purse i'm really annoyed about. It was linked by a key chain onto a zip inside her bag.

I've asked her if anyone's took her things, and she says no, she's just lost them. I believe her. I can tell when she's lying.

anklebitersmum Thu 31-Jan-13 18:05:51

I get it. Absolutely. BUT she's only 5. Irrespective of anything else, she is only 5.

Mine lose things on a regular basis. Usually when I can least afford to replace them and when there's no wriggle time on replacement. DS2 has lost more PE kit than I care to think about and has blamed me every single time.

"Mummy forgot" he'll say, looking angelic. Cue pious, pontificating teacher (or worse TA) at hometime-normally in front of the 'perfect Mummies' for good effect.

I figured I'd stop that and he'd go on the bus..lost two weeks worth of ticket on the first day angry hmm

Take a deep breath (or three), set face to smile and head in to see your still very young daughter.

I do the tiny hand reminder. As you're checking out her drawing put your hand on hers and think about the size difference grin

WandaDoff Thu 31-Jan-13 18:06:09

My 15 year old still struggles to not lose his stuff & he's NT.

I have a 3 yr old DD with ASD & she wouldn't even understand to concept of losing stuff.

I think maybe you are expecting too much.

Strangemagic Thu 31-Jan-13 18:06:37

She is 5 with asd ,my son is 9 with asd he has no attachment to "stuff".Telling her she has her stuff means nothing to her,you need to reinforce visually,take photos get her to check them off,and you need to do this all the time and you will still need to be prepared for her to loose things.
I think this is not so much related to her asd,but about being 5,she will not pick up that you are upset or why so please take her butterfly picture and be kind to her and yourself and calm down

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 18:06:59

Oh god... Seriously, you need to back off, your expectations are completely unrealistic.

She's five, just five years old sad

My DS has ASD and at almost 9 I couldn't expect him to remember those things!

She's still so very little, this isn't her fault.

I think the school need to be made much more aware of her level of capability, and along with you, should be lifting the responsibility that she clearly cannot handle yet.

Poor little mite.

Nanny0gg Thu 31-Jan-13 18:07:21

Most of this is not unusual for an NT 5 year-old, let alone one with ASD. She's only in Reception, they should be being much more helpful and supportive.

Arrange a meeting with the teacher and SENCo. Has your daughter got an IEP yet? They need to be made aware of what is and isn't realistic.

Letmeintroducemyself Thu 31-Jan-13 18:07:57

I understand totally unrelated I lost mf temper with my ds this morning because he was tanteumming. and his behaviour really wasn't his fault

its really hard - even when you know they can't help it.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 18:08:15

The £25 shoes were from Clarks.

She can't get cheap ones because her feet are an awkward size/shape.

She uses her gym shoes normally, but today they required trainers as they were doing P.E outside.

So now i've had to get a replacement pair from ASDA that don't even fit her.

DragonMamma Thu 31-Jan-13 18:09:31

YABU to be this het up over it but YANBU to feel a bit peeved over the cost of replacing things.

My DD is the same age and was forever losing dinner money, so I paid by cheque and they have now implemented an online system for paying dinner money.

Last year she lost an extraordinary amount of cardigans, she ended up with the wrong shoes on a lot of the time too. Now I just buy the cheapest, half decent ones I can an accept they'll go walkabouts and/or be ruined.

drjohnsonscat Thu 31-Jan-13 18:11:28

Lowla, hope you are ok. This must be about something other than your DD who sounds normal for 5 in her ability to lose things, regardless of ASD. She also sounds lovely.

Can you identify what's shaking you so much about this? you sound at the end of your tether (we've all been there) but what is it exactly that is upsetting you so much?

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 18:11:34

I really think you need to look at the bigger issue here, stop focussing on the material things and look at the situation a little more clearly!

Your DD isn't capable of looking after her things yet, this is obvious.

Instead of continually blaming her you need to be finding a solution with the school, I know how frustrating it is, I really do, but your little girl really shouldn't be the focus of so much anger sad

I wouldn't trust my NT 5yo with all this sort of stuff and she's pretty on the ball. The school's dinner money system is shite for a start. Regardless of what they say I would be handing it, in person, to the teacher or office.

I understand it's frustrating but you know it's going to happen so you need to think about ways round their silly policies.

littleducks Thu 31-Jan-13 18:12:28

I agree slightly bigger plimsoles or cheaply trainers, stick thick socks in if you are worried will do for PE.

My ds is in reception. I send him in with stickers, sometimes actually on him smile like I am going to after school club today or sometimes on his bookbag like 'my trip consent form is in here as I don't drop him off most mornings. He can't read but knows if he forgets what sticker is about to just show teacher/ta. They keep an eye out for them now too.

Ok, so the teacher is helpful with lost clothing items. I'm sure the shoes will turn up, as they must be in school somewhere.

As far as the money is concerned I would be going into school and insisting that you cannot and will not be sending any more money in with your DD in this way as you can't afford to lose that much dinner money repeatedly.
I know school offices get busy, but there are times when they aren't so busy and I'd be arranging to drop that money off at such a time myself.

ruledbyheart Thu 31-Jan-13 18:12:52

She is 5 years old what 5yr old knows the concept of money, sure its hard when on a tight budget but its not your daughters fault.
I think you need to accept the fact that actually your expecting too much far too young and you need to deal with it not take it out on your daughter.

Narked Thu 31-Jan-13 18:13:38

I know you must feel at the end of your tether.

(( hugs ))


Now try to take a few deep breaths and think about this. She's 5. At 5 I would expect a NT child to lose things and wouldn't trust them to look after £10 every week. A child who is on the spectrum is likely to have more problems.

First, accept that she will lose stuff. Buy cheaper stuff. Label it to hell - even if that means big obvious marking eg writing her name on the side of shoes with marker pen.

Secondly , call the school and ask for a meeting with her teacher, head and the SEN co-ordinator. Ask them how they are supporting her needs? Do they understand the practical implications of her diagnosis? That she is likely to need more reminders about some things? Get them to agree that they will allow you to load her card for her and that you can mark/label her stuff clearly/obviously. And explain that any school uniform you buy will only have the logo on the first time - you can't afford to be buying pricey replacement stuff. And, due to the sheer volume of stuff that's gone missing and not turned up, including cash, you need to make sure that she's not being bullied/manipulated into handing things over.

sunshine401 Thu 31-Jan-13 18:15:03

She is five years old confused !!

God my eight year old still "forgets" stuff now. I pay for school meals myself as in a go into the school every month and pay at the reception. Thought that was normal. My children do take a pound in everyday for breakfast and they know if they "forget" it they go without so they hold onto it. I would not get angry at a five year old for misplacing stuff. It happens.

chickensarmpit Thu 31-Jan-13 18:15:10

My son lost his school pants and he didn't even have p.e. that day. Work that one out!

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 18:15:54

OP, YOU need to take responsibility for finding a way to pay the dinner money etc. You are taking out a disproportionate amount of anger on a little girl who seems genuinely sorry to have upset you (how many 5 year olds would independently write apology letters??) but doesn't really understand the consequences of losing things because she is only 5 and has SN!

Andro Thu 31-Jan-13 18:16:55

OP, has your DD only recently been diagnosed?

Your reaction seem hugely out of proportion (frustration = reasonable, shaking/crying with anger...not so much) so I'm wondering if you've actually had time to come to terms with her condition and it's implications.

Do you have a DP who can help you? Perhaps you need to find someone you can talk to, someone who can help you put all this into perspective.

Seabird72 Thu 31-Jan-13 18:18:02

I think the school is expecting too much of children that young, never mind just your dd. They can't just shrug and say not their responsibility when this amount of stuff is going missing. Have you been in to check the lost property box? I had to go in when my kids were much older than 5 to check lost property for myself and the amount of stuff I saw in there that HAD name tags on was unbelievable - dinner ladies and teachers just chucked the stuff in there without looking or bothering if it had a tag in it! I would check myself and then ask for a meeting with the head and your dd teacher to talk about the amount of things that seem to be going missing and their policy for expecting children so young to be so responsible. £10 is alot of money to lose. Also, do they accept cheques instead of cash? My dd has a card for dinners but she takes the chq to the office and they add the cash to the card even though it takes them weeks to then cash the chq. It seems to me that someone in the class is taking stuff from your dd - it culd even be a bullying issue - since these things seem to have disappeared?? You have to look into it. I thik at that age she won't care anyway - kids really do believe that we just pop along to the shops and get them whatever they want. Talk to her about being more responsible but talk to the school mainly.

DoctorAnge Thu 31-Jan-13 18:18:57

That is a lot of stuff to go missing. What on earth is happening to all this missing g money and items?

I understand it must be frustrating but it sounds like she has no concept of loosing them.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 31-Jan-13 18:19:54

Perhaps someone is taking her things without her knowing. That's a hell of a lot of stuff to go missing - she may think she has lost them when in actual fact someone has lifted them.

I can understand that you are really frustrated, particularly if money is tight, and that you have reached the end of your tether but you need to try to calm down as it will not be doing you or your daughter any good if you are this wound up. Take a few deep breaths and try to talk to your daughter about the things she has lost. When she says that she doesn't need to look for her trainers because you have bought new ones, then talk to her and explain why she needs to look for them. I don't have children so don't know how much she would actually take on board but it has got to be worth a try.

I think you need to go to the school and speak to the Headteacher and explain your concerns about her things going missing. Whether she has SEN or not, it is ridiculous to expect 5 year olds to take responsibility for their own dinner money, particularly when the fact that at least one child keeps losing it shows that their system is not working.
The school need to start taking some responsibility for her belongings too - she is 5 not 15 and whether these things are being taken from her/she is losing them, the school should be keeping an eye on it. She clearly needs some support with her belongings. I would definitely go above her teacher though and speak to the Head, making your concerns more formal. It may be that other pupils are having similar problems.

And here wine - have a glass on me, you sound like you need it.

PS Go and give your daughter a cuddle and read a story together and try to forget about the money for now, you can't do anything about it right now and will only wound yourself up again. Then go to speak to the school tomorrow

orlakielylover Thu 31-Jan-13 18:20:00

I am a TA in reception and spend a lot of my time tracing lost coats, or kits etc. it will be about. The kids get changed by each other and often scoop each others things into their bags.

^^ this. I used to be a TA in a YR class in a previous life and my day was spent finding lost coats and bags and jumpers and toys etc etc. 5 year olds are generally not good at taking care of stuff. And they have no idea about the value of money. None at all. PE day was a free for all in my class. Carnage.

Cheap plimsolls will be fine for a 45 min PE lesson once a week.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 31-Jan-13 18:20:38

X-post Seabird

HappyMummyOfOne Thu 31-Jan-13 18:21:30

She is five, poor little one. She will have no concept of money and all five year olds think parents replace lost clothes etc.

You need to stop over reacting, DS is older primary but still loses things. Moral is dont buy clothes or footwear you cant afford to lose.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 31-Jan-13 18:22:50

And if the bloody school office is too busy to take money from small children, it's about time the school moved into the 21st Century and made online payments possible.

Dolallytats Thu 31-Jan-13 18:24:25

She's 5. It's not that she doesn't care, she has a much more simplistic view of the world. My son is almost 5. If I say i have no money he thinks I can just go to the cashpoint and get some. At that age it is not for him to worry about these things.

I feel a bit sad that you are that angry with your young child that you don't think you can nicely accept the picture she is drawing especially to cheer you up.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 18:25:26

I think i'm beginning to calm. A little bit anyway. Feels good to be able to vent on here.

DD's now tantrumming next door about a toy she can't fix. Scared to go in and sort it though because i think it'll set me off again.

I honestly realise how stupid it is to be acting this way. I've NEVER felt this way towards dd before. But i honestly can't even bring myself to look at her right now. She's just so bloody annoying.

Yes, i've researched ASD and i understand it. Of course i have. She was diagnosed at 3.5yo. She's HFA though, so a lot of the time it's as if she is NT, just a bit quirky. But then she does things like her stimming, her stuttering, her wierd behaviours that remind me she isn't NT.

I can never get to talk to her teacher. Parents aren't allowed to approach staff in the mornings, and the teacher doesn't come out at hometime. The kids come out themselves, with a random teacher from the infants overseeing things.

I have a review meeting again though due at Easter time. So i'll bring it up then.

TBH, there's nothing the teacher can do though. There's 28 kids in the class. no TAs at the school. Things get lost. It's not the teachers fault/responsibility to keep tracks of 28 kits and pairs of shoes.

BacardiNCoke Thu 31-Jan-13 18:28:09

I think you're directing your anger at the wrong person. She's 5 FFS! My NT 6 year old doesn't have any concept of money she thinks my purse produces an never ending supply. Hell, my ASD 9 year old also thinks this, when she was 5 she wouldn't have cared at all that she'd lost dinner money or her PE kit. It's not her fault! NT 5 year olds lose stuff just as much.

LadyMedea Thu 31-Jan-13 18:28:11

I'm echoing drjohnsoncat it sounds like the is more to your frustration than this issue... Do you have enough support for you and your dd both in and out of school. Being a mum of a child with ASD must be hard work and involve a steep learning curve. Look act yourself.

lljkk Thu 31-Jan-13 18:29:48


Squitten Thu 31-Jan-13 18:30:49

If you really can't see the teacher, I would go and see the Head Lowla.

My child has no special needs but there's no way I would trust him with money like that at 5yrs old. He's 4.5 and can barely concentrate long enough not to fall over his own feet! I would be fuming if the school insisted on a policy that enabled my child to chuck my money down the drain!

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 18:35:37

No, tbh, not much support in RL. She was diagnosed and that was that according to the pediatrician and Salt. Although SALT visit school weekly, but that's only for her first year of school. I'm starting a HANEN programme next month.

My parents and friends are in denial about her diagnosis, saying that she's 'normal' and will grow out of it.

I suppose i'm starting to believe them, which could explain why i get so wound up when i blatantly see she is NOT NT.

For god's sake. It's just a pair of shoes. I'm acting like it's the end of the world. I was telling her off all round ASDA after school while buying new trainers and was getting some dirty looks off people. At the time, i felt like ripping their heads off. Especially the old woman who put her trolley in the middle of the aisle, and then tutted at me when i moved it out my way!

Just had a really crap day. I'm normal the quietest, calmest person ever.

CalamityKate Thu 31-Jan-13 18:36:20


Can't bring yourself to look at her?
She's so bloody annoying?


trixymalixy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:38:13

I wouldn't trust my NT 6 yo not to lose things. He lost his epipen at school never to be seen again.

Can you not make an appointment to speak to the teacher. That's the procedure at DS's school.

KatyTheCleaningLady Thu 31-Jan-13 18:40:38

Wow, Kate. That was harsh.

I think it would be very stressful to have a child with that diagnosis. I would be gutted if my kids lost so much stuff. And I'd be pretty annoyed if the teacher acted like she didn't believe me.

I think the op is having a rough day, is all.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 18:40:48

You are not very nice about your dd . She's five fgs you should be ashamed of yourself are you winding us up?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 18:41:52

It's good reading all your posts and realising my dd isn't the only child who loses so many things.

I think i'll wait and see what tomorrow brings (hopefully the trainers!). If anything else goes missing, i'll ask to speak to the Head.

If I tell my 6 year old I have no money he says 'you can just get some money from daddy'

He has no concept that daddy is not some sort of inexhaustible money machine who in fact usually has far less cash than me.

He loses stuff too, I'm forever buying pencils, rubbers, sharpeners, etc. I dread to think what he'd be like if they got changed for pe in school!

You're expecting far too much of a five year old, and that's without even going into the ASD aspect.

PolterGoose Thu 31-Jan-13 18:43:25

Lowla you really need to get some RL support, you really shouldn't have to feel like this. My ds has an ASD and it is bloody hard but your posts are somewhat alarming when you talk about your dd in that way. Please please take action, see your GP, call NAS, whatever, do something.

Are you aware of the special needs: children board? It is very supportive for us parents of children with SNs.

trixymalixy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:43:55

DS doesn't understand money either, he said " why can't you just go to the shop and buy some more?" grin

insanityscratching Thu 31-Jan-13 18:44:45

My dd is almost ten with ASD academically she is exceptionally able, she has a statement and a TA who helps her organise her stuff and supports her in her friendships rather than help her with schoolwork. I give the dinner money to the teacher, her TA organises her stuff because she would lose and forget things otherwise like your dd. Being HFA and academically able doesn't mean she won't have issues in school, she isn't nearly NT she has a disability and school need to make reasonable adjustments to their systems so that she is enabled to manage whilst she is there. I think you need to remind them of this, before the Easter break as well.

wonderingsoul Thu 31-Jan-13 18:45:07

your misplacing the blame.

a 5 year old, esp one with sn should not be trusted or have the responabilty of handing money over every week or day. you hNd it to the teacher or office,

the kit, that's not her fault is it, shit happens, iv had two new school branded jumperngo missing even though they where named and had letter home etc for it.

take it up with the school and give your dd a big hug and your self a cofe or betteryet a wine.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 18:45:23

OP, your daughter has no concept of money or what things cost or how you come by it. She doesn't care because she doesn't understand.

It sounds like you're really frustrated and that's understandable because ASD is a really tricky condition. Try to calm down and talk to us (and ignore the people who are being rude to you.)

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 18:45:55

Make an appointment to see the teacher then! It can't be a school rule that you aren't allowed to see her.

Can you move schools? This one does not sound very good.

You are stressed and fed up I get it. But the real issue here is how crappy the school is. I would take a stand and refuse to let my 5 year old be in charge of money like that. I'd be at the office on a Monday morning with the money in an envelope and they would have to accept it because anything else is ridiculous. I would also be asking the school how a PE kit was able to be lost. At 5 years old they would be putting PE bags into a special labelled box (different box per table to make it easier at changing time). The teacher and TA would be checking and helping. What kind of random school is this? Be cross but not with your little girl.

Andro Thu 31-Jan-13 18:47:01

Lowla - Take a deep breath!

I suspect that your meltdown today is the culmination of too much stress and not enough support; your DD is not the problem, but she has become the focal point. You need support, you need strategies, you need the people around you to get a grip. I would start with a visit to your GP, you're overwhelmed and s/he might be able to point you in the right direction.

witchface Thu 31-Jan-13 18:47:29

Just to check you know shoe sizing means the shoe will fit while the foot grows a whole size? So a 7 1/2 will fit til shes an 8 1/2. So when you first get shoes they will always have room and won't be so big you need to stop them. If she is on the small side then get a 7, if the big side get an 8. You would easily be able to tell which is bigger by trying them on.

It sounds as if she is trying to make it up to you, drawing you a picture and writing you a letter saying she will never do it again. Don't know much about asd but as i understand this would be a big thing - I would be amazed at that level of empathy from my nt dd.

CalamityKate Thu 31-Jan-13 18:47:39

I don't think I'm being anywhere near as harsh on the OP as she is being to her DD.

I can empathise with you Lowla. My DD2 has learning disabilities and is a real dolly day dream and forgetful. She's 10 and I hate it when people say Oh Bless Her. I want to scream she's like that at home and its fucking frustrating.

Why are people being so judgey about buying Clarks trainers. My DD has awkward feet too narrow and shallow. I've tried cheap, they didn't fit properly and DD fell over badly.

You sound very stressed out. DD is only 5 and the school should be doing more to help. The dinner money collection is daft. I send a cheque in once a month. Have a brew or wine and a good cry if helps and start again tomorrow.

witchface Thu 31-Jan-13 18:48:43

I meant which size fits better of course not bigger.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 31-Jan-13 18:49:05

Hope you're ok lowla, nice to see people taking a kick while you're down. My nt 7 year old is all over the place, in his school career so far he's misplaced loads, that's normal. The school being so shit at helping is not.

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 31-Jan-13 18:49:54

She's 5, and my DS is 18 with AS and no LDs.
If you continue to get this angry over acts that are linked to her age and her disability, you will explode in a gigantic bang of sheer fury before she reaches double figures.
It will continue to be a problem until you and she work out strategies to help her function in the world. And you are right, she really doesn't care. However she seems to care about you, making you happy when you are cross, thinking about how you feel and what she could do to help you. Took my son til around 12 before he got to that stage.
Go and insist on some reasonable accommodation and adaptation of the school rules to help her manage. get some help and support for you too, because the causes of your rage won't disappear, so you have to decide what you are going to do about it before you both drown.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 18:50:04

Do you think your poor daughter is doing this deliberately? I feel very sorry for your dd - take a deep breath and calm down. She is 5 years old FFS.

thebody Thu 31-Jan-13 18:50:26

I am a reception TA and wouldn't dream of accepting cash from a 5 year old.. I would assume patent was mad to give money to the child/ ringing parent as assume child had somehow got the money snc parent didn't know.. This happens also with phones.

Our school specifically tries to prevent children using cash and we have Internet payment, checks or cash to the office via parent.

Both you and your school seem very unaware of a 5 year olds capabilities here.

JuliaScurr Thu 31-Jan-13 18:50:50


if the school can't provide for your dd's SEN it is the school's fault, not hers. She needs TA support.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 31-Jan-13 18:52:09

And you buy whatever trainers your dd needs. I'll be damned if my daughter is wearing cheap plastic school shoes on the off chance he loses them.

JuliaScurr Thu 31-Jan-13 18:52:32

That was meant to be YY Hanging

wonderingsoul Thu 31-Jan-13 18:52:50

and tbh all the school needs is a locked box in the office to drop money off, no need to even do online.

id be angry at the school

MrsMushroom Thu 31-Jan-13 18:52:52

You seem irrationally angry. I think you should speak to the doctor about your stress.

My DD is in reception and no way would I give her the dinner money...I go into the office myself and hand it in.

As for her shoes...make the school take SOME responsibility.. Go in and look and ask and ask till they look too.

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 31-Jan-13 18:53:11

All those pointing out that she's 5, the thing is that unless they all work something out, she'll have exactly the same attitude at 15.

I'm sorry you're finding stuff hard, it isn't easy I know. I think the school is badly letting your daughter down and I think you need to be up at the school every day until they get it right - why are there no TAs? These children are little, they need help and support. sad

zzzzz Thu 31-Jan-13 18:54:08

You are being totally and ridiculously unfair.

RooneyMara Thu 31-Jan-13 18:54:22

Jeesus sad

what a crap school. Have they NO support for children with special needs?

You sound very depressed OP - I am sorry things are so rubbish. Fwiw your dd sounds so sweet. You need more help with this, and the school should be doing at least part of that.

please don't blame your dd, she is doing her best and just doesn't understand.

Take care x

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 18:56:07

Thank you everyone. Crying again because i feel so guilty, and you're being lovely.

DD's doing her homework just now. Perfectly cheery. I reckon i could stomp about the house in a wild tantrum and she would still be full of smiles.

I just wished she showed some remorse. Some sense of knowing that she's done wrong. But i realise that's a totally stupid thing to expect.

Her letter/picture is something she does every day anyway, but usually it says random things like "I like ice cream cones."

Her school is amazing. I'm just showing them in a really bad light. Her teacher especially is lovely and dd adores her. Her little classmates have all been told she has ASD and they often help her e.g. help do her zip etc.

She doesn't get school dinners often anyway. Usually 1-2 days each month. But that week was because i was working extra hours and couldn't be bothered making packed lunches.

quoteunquote Thu 31-Jan-13 18:57:11

In our school you pay lunch money in at the office, could you do this, to avoid this issue happing again.

I wouldn't expect a five year old to keep track of things.

The school doesn't sound very communicative. Any possibility of moving her somewhere else? If they can't work with parents at 5 I'd be concerned they wouldn't be much help further up school.

I think it's just a snapshot of how you're feeling on here tonight, isn't it? Everything just boiling over after this latest thing.

MrsMushroom Thu 31-Jan-13 18:57:50

She hasn't really done wrong though Lowla she's just done her best. You should definitely hand in the money for her yourself...just go to the office and give it there.

As for the shoes....make a fuss...I had to make a fuss the other week about a jacket and it turned up a day later.

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 18:59:27

She hasn't done anything wrong ffs and therefore should not have to show remorse.

I can't believe you are blaming your poor dd. And yes, I have a vast experience of ASD.

x-post re school. They should be more open to communication inbetween scheduled meetings though.

'Remorse' isn't something many 5 yr olds show, it really isn't.

Strangemagic Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:32

Lowla Having a child with asd is hard,this is just the tip of the iceberg ,unfortunately you are going to have many battles,my mantra is dont sweat the little stuff,I know it's annoying and aggrevating(sp) but in the grand scheme of things,it means nothing,Go and give her a hug and remember what a special,beautiful,individual child she is.

Firstly, I'm glad you posted on here because you needed to vent your feelings and its good you did to us rather than lose it with your DD.

I would check out the Special Needs boards when you are ready and find yourself some real life support because you do sound like you are stressed to breaking point right now.

cumfy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:38

She just doesn't give a shit
I'm at the end of my tether with her.

Did your Mum/Dad talk about you in similar terms when you were 5 or so ?

MrsMushroom Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:52

manic don't give her a hard time. Not everyone has the patience that you have....some people have to learn it.

TheLightPassenger Thu 31-Jan-13 19:01:09

An NT 5 year old might be better at looking remorseful but it almost certainly wouldn't be genuine. NT 5 year olds are unlikely to have a good grasp on how hard it is for parents to earn money and the value of money.

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 31-Jan-13 19:01:23

Lowla, do you post in the SN forums here?
It's a good place to come and scream when things pile on top of you and you want to have a rant because your child just doesn't get it at all.

Like when I sliced my hand open when cooking dinner and was close to fainting whilst trying to stem the gush, and all DS could yell was 'Don't get blood on my pizza!'
Not remorseful or concerned about me, just angry at the thought of his sodding pizza getting bloody. grin

MrsMushroom Thu 31-Jan-13 19:01:55

cumfy same to you. Do not pile in on an OP who appears vulnerable.

OP can I suggest you pop over to Special Needs Children on here? There are loads of people on that section who will have a ton of sympathy and good advice too.

Pagwatch Thu 31-Jan-13 19:02:00

I think you are feeling a whole lot of things including guilt, grief and frustration. Blaming her is entirely understandable but an awful thing.

Is there anyone you can talk to. Are there any ASD support groups?

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 31-Jan-13 19:02:17

Or his bloody pizza getting sodden. Whatever, I felt very unloved that evening!

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 19:02:29

I'm not patient, at all. I'm just pissed off at a grown woman putting the guilts on a 5 year old ASD child who does not understand.

Blimey asking 5 year olds to take responsibility for cash is madness, I bet your dd is not the only one who has lost it.

Poor you, you sound really stressed and done for, put today behind you (I bet the PE kit turns up very soon, they have a habit of turning up just as youve bought another one!), and maybe talked to the teacher in the morning about things.

CharlieMumma Thu 31-Jan-13 19:05:03

As others have said she's only 5 and has Asd maybe u should take her stuff in or speak to teacher or ta so they know she has it all. If she brings u a nice picture then of course u must be gracious and happy to receive it. She's still very young and isn't doing it on purpose.

pigletmania Thu 31-Jan-13 19:05:03

Yabvvvvvvu she is 5 not 15! Why the hell are you giving a child virtually a baby a weeks wrth if dinner money, you should be handing that to her teacher or TA! Is there any possibility se could be bullied and her things taken

MrsMushroom Thu 31-Jan-13 19:05:11

manic yes but not everyone is as far sighted and some people need extra input so they can understand what they're dealing with.

littlemisssarcastic Thu 31-Jan-13 19:06:46

OP, your thread has made me feel very sad.

Your beautiful DD is 5 years old, and has spent this afternoon/evening desperately thinking up ways to placate her incredibly furious and angry mummy. She can see you are furious, despite not understanding exactly why, because she is not able to see why. No 5 year old understands money issues in the way you do as an adult, let alone a 5 year old with ASD.

Imagine being your DD for a minute, imagine the total fear of telling mummy that you have lost something again, because mummy will shake and cry with anger and be furious with me, and I don't know what to do to make it better. I know, I'll draw mummy a picture, she'll like that, it's her favourite..a butterfly, yes, I'll do that.

Only DD doesn't know that mummy is in the next room
Dreading her coming in to give me it, because i'm really still angry with her and i'll end up hurting her feelings.

WTF does that mean? You'll end up hurting her feelings? Wasn't shouting at her all around Asda's, to the point that other shoppers were giving you dirty looks, hurting her feelings? Or shaking and crying with anger?

I'm sorry if this is an unpopular opinion, but I feel dreadful for your DD.

Do you think she honestly loses these things on purpose to piss you off????

Your argument should be with the school. Any school which puts this kind of pressure on a 5 year old to be responsible for their own dinner money and belongings, should be made aware if one of the parents feels like punching a wall because that child has lost something due to their weird rules!!, and if they continue implementing rules whilst knowing the implications once that child has gone home, then they want bloody stringing up.

It is not your DD's fault. Your DD is not doing it on purpose. Your DD is trying to placate you, and make you feel better, while you say you cannot even look at her, and you are directing all of your wrath at a 5 year old who is being put under incredible pressure by a school who clearly don't understand what a 5 year old is capable of.

I am sad and angry on behalf of your DD.

pigletmania Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:13

She as ASD to boot so will not be as mature socially and developmentally as the other chidren. Yabvvvvvu wand ave hgh expectations of a child so young. Why don't you talk to her teacher r TA. Surely you should be handing all money to a responsible adult.

RooneyMara Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:19

Mine would lose it if I gave him money. In fact my 9yo would too. We hand it in at the office. I don't understand the school's approach to your dd's needs. There's no specialised support for her at all by the sound of it.

They need proper advice if nothing else - ours got in a specialist from the LEA who goes round all rthe schools advising on these issues. He was great and gave them loads of of friends, social stories etc.

It sounds like you have a lot of demands from them about what she needs to have etc but they won't help her cope with the stuff when she is there and that's totally not on.

No wonder you feel under pressure. Also you sound hurt by her lack of remorse - I understand that. But you wouldn't need it from her if you were feeling Ok in yourself and more understood/supported.

I only get REALLY cross with mine when I am being put under pressure by other people/school/etc etc and the kids stop me doing as good a job as I feel I should be, of it. Does that make any sense.

cherrycarpet Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:25

Your poor daughter.... She's FIVE YEARS OLD. Perhaps your expectations of her way too high??

For a start the school needs to change it's lunch money system - get an adult to take the money in and deposit it in a 'safe box' as we do in our school.

As for losing things - well this is pretty normal for a 5 year old and she's not doing on purpose. One of my children has ASD and he still loses things on a regular basis (he's 10).... Yes, it's very frustrating but seems to go with the ASD territory.

Wow - try and remember what it's like to be 5 and how daunting it can be starting school... Having worked in Foundation myself I know how chaotic things can be with a bunch of 5 year olds. Things go 'missing' on a regular basis but usually turn up in the end. If they don't - well it's annoying but not the end of the world is it?

She'll definitely be picking up on your stress so maybe time to give her a bit of slack??

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 19:08:48

What littlemisssarcastic said - to the letter.

MrsMushroom, why are you projecting all these qualities on me? confused

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 31-Jan-13 19:09:08

manic, you know that being a parent of a child with sn is very tough going and it's forever. Sometimes it's difficult to be wise and calm and look at a situation dispassionately. OP needs to, but she's going to need more support IRL than she's getting, and some calming and centering strategies for herself. Or she'll crack and her DD will be truly stuffed then.

Hobbitation Thu 31-Jan-13 19:10:26

I think the teacher & school should be helping reception children take more care of things. An entire PE kit must be somewhere, if it is named & does not turn up in lost property I'd be livid, but with the school not my 5 y o daughter. DD1 lost a jumper on the school field in summer, but that was it. And the money issue is ridiculous, dinners should be paid for in a lump sum to the office at the end of the previous term.

blackeyedsusan Thu 31-Jan-13 19:10:39

no, it is not in school somewhere, it has buggered off on holiday with dd's right plimsol... neverr to be seen again. (or only to be seen again when both children have grown out of them)

RooneyMara Thu 31-Jan-13 19:10:48

They are basically trying to make her do things that she cannot possibly cope with. How on earth is that supporting her needs, it's shite, they need bollocking - or educating - they are being truly rubbish.

RooneyMara Thu 31-Jan-13 19:13:01

You're cross with her instead of the school. You need to REDIRECT this anger at the people who deserve it. NOT at your lovely dd, because it ain't her fault - but you know that really.

just the bloody school, God I would tell them where to get off. Are there other schools you could consider who actually cater for SN?

manicbmc Thu 31-Jan-13 19:13:18

I know very well what it is like to have a child with ASD. It is bloody tough and sometimes it does all get to you. But that doesn't then give me the right to put the blame for things on my child.

The ASD is besides the point as it is perfectly reasonable to think that any 5 year old would lose the money and mislay items at school. I still wouldn't be getting all het up and angry about it to the child, to the point where it is laboured all the way around a supermarket.

CheeseStrawWars Thu 31-Jan-13 19:13:32

My 4yo lost something the other day, I forget what it was but I was annoyed about it. "Never mind," she says, patting me on the arm, "We can get another one from the shop." But that costs money, DD, say I, We don't have money to buy another one. "That's okay," she says reassuringly. "You can print some money on the computer." She just doesn't understand. I've explained that you get money for working, but she just sees me hand over a piece of plastic that I get given back in the shop.

I view it like learning not to throw food on the floor, or run in the road - you just need to keep on explaining, reminding, and going over it. Just because it hasn't gone in this time doesn't mean the message isn't going in on some level. Your DD will get there.

On a practical note, can you get shoes on Ebay to keep costs down?

abbyfromoz Thu 31-Jan-13 19:14:39

She is 5 years old. Money might be tight and must leave you feeling very anxious, but please don't forget where your daughter is in all of this. Yesterday my purse was stolen, today i got a parking ticket and then found DD drawing on our white leather couch in permanent marker... My thoughts? I was stupid to have left the marker within her reach and i refused to take my frustration out on an innocent child. I hope you don't feel misunderstood here but please remember what is more important- that your child feels loved.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 19:20:11

Your school's policy is SHIT. demand to see a teacher and say you cannot give your child the responsibility yet and that you expect some help.

I am angry at your school!

AgentZigzag Thu 31-Jan-13 19:21:27

I agree with littlemisssarcastics post as well, but not in a 'fucking hell, I feel sorry for your DD OP' way to have a dig at the OP, but in imagining what must be going on for the OP to say certain things.

Ilovesunflowers Thu 31-Jan-13 19:27:20

You need to calm down. This is a little 5 year old. She shouldn't be subjected to your irrational anger. Please calm down.

All children lose things. It's easy to lose things in schools (imagine 30 people sharing a tiny cloakroom where most bags look the same and lots of shoes, coats and things look really similar too).

She's 5! At our school you can only pay school dinners through the school office.

You sound very OTT.

Reaa Thu 31-Jan-13 19:32:31

Can you pay for lunches via cheque?

48Hours Thu 31-Jan-13 19:35:56

Lowla I would reiterate what other posters have said about posting on the special needs board. To look at different strategies to help you and your daughter and also ways in which school could be supporting her needs appropriately.
You do sound as if things have got to much for you atm and I can empathise with that, I happy to pm you if you want?
I have an 11 yr old severely autistic child and think a lot of the responses on here have been really harsh, no one is perfect everyone fucks up every now and then, well I do anyway!
Go and give her another hug, try and forget what has happened today and then start to plan ways in which these situations can be managed for dd and for you.
Take care.

pigletmania Thu 31-Jan-13 19:41:41

The school really is to blame for putting a hell of a lt of responsibility on little children. Their way of doing things sucks and I would complain to the HT and make a lot of noise, it s not fair on thse kids, they are not preteens/teens! I wuld insist that dinner money is handed in to a responsible adult and demand to know why dd stuff is going missing. To place an enormous amount of responsibility and blame on your dd op is both unfair and unkind! the staff should be keeping track of chikdrens things, equally it's your responsibility to Mae sure all items are labelled so staff can identify them

pigletmania Thu 31-Jan-13 19:47:11

I have a dd 5 with ASD and developmental delays, noway would I give er £1 nevermind £10 to look after. When I hand dd over to her TA it's their resonsubility for dd things not dd would no have a clue. Yes your anger should be directed t te school not your poor dd, go and giver her a hug and apologise to her

aldiwhore Thu 31-Jan-13 19:47:21

Doesn't she have a reading folder?

Apart from anything esle SHE IS FIVE!!!!!

I understand your frustration but at my sons' school, everything that needs to go to the school office goes in their reading folder, the PE kit hangs on their peg for a full half term etc etc., things do go missing, but it's me that finds them (and rightly so).

DontmindifIdo Thu 31-Jan-13 19:47:57

Call up tomorrow morning, ask to speak to the head about this. If you can't see the teacher just before/after school, then see if you can book an appointment with them as well.

KitchenandJumble Thu 31-Jan-13 19:50:31

I do think you have overreacted rather extremely. Your DD is a child, losing things is what children do. Even the most responsible children occasionally lose something. For most kids, it's an almost daily occurrence. Add in your DD's diagnosis of autism, and it's no wonder she is struggling.

But it seems as though you are expecting your child to have adult emotional and/or cognitive responses to this situation. That way madness lies. She's a child, she isn't NT, so her responses will be very different from an adult's (especially an adult who is NT).

It broke my heart a little to read that your DD was doing her best to defuse your anger: drawing pictures, writing apology notes. Of course it's frustrating for you to deal with her losing things. But your DD really shouldn't be the focus of such intense anger.

mantlepiece Thu 31-Jan-13 19:51:02

Am shocked at the number of posters reporting so many items "lost".

If you deliver your child with said items into a fenced and locked school, how can they be lost?

There must be a great number of thieves about. That must be the truth of the matter.

ledkr Thu 31-Jan-13 19:54:00

If your budget is that tight why did you spend so much on p.e. kit for a 5 yr old?

AgentZigzag Thu 31-Jan-13 19:55:10

'There must be a great number of thieves about. That must be the truth of the matter.'

Are you thinking of the other 5 YOs or the staff?

Neither would be plausible.

pigletmania Thu 31-Jan-13 19:58:12

My dd used to go to MS school, not one f her things went missing and dinner money would have to be paid into te school office. Your dd school sounds very in affective op ts not your dd fault. By saying tey are trying to get the chidren to have more responsibility tey are negating tei resonsiblites

hackmum Thu 31-Jan-13 19:58:48

Having read only the first and last pages of the discussion, I guess the unspoken issue is that the OP doesn't have a lot of money, so money and clothing going awry like this has a big impact. I do feel sympathetic for that reason.

But I also agree with everyone else. Your DD sounds lovely. It's not really her fault, and she's not old enough to understand why you can't just pop out and buy a new pair of shoes every time one goes missing. So the school is the issue here, not your DD.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:00:20

DD's in bed. I'm getting a little worked up again.

I've asked her again about the purse and she says she told her teacher that Mummy didn't give her any dinner money. She lied! I told her again, yes i did, but you lost it. And she just went quiet.

It's annoying me that the school think i'm the clumsy/forgetful one. Especially with that last comment today, asking me to double check i've not left them at home.

I'm just fuming that someone else has got her brand new purse, the ten pounds and now her Clarks shoes.

And it wasn't an expensive p.e. kit at all. It's a simple polo shirt and shorts and gym shoes.

Today, however, they were outside for P.E so i had to provide outdoor trainers. The only pair she has are Clarks ones because she is a half size, and one foots narrower than the other.

The school won't accept cheque for dinner money either. This is really playing on my mind. I just want it sorted. And i've just told dd that for every time she lies to me, i'm putting one of her DVDs in the bin. Harsh maybe, but i'm sick to death of her lying to me all the time.

Furby2000 Thu 31-Jan-13 20:01:34

My son is 9, in year 5 and bright. He loses stuff all the time, jumpers, pe kit, pencil cases, hats, scarves, gloves etc. He is very disorganised but has got a bit better this year. Ask the school if you can pay dinner money my cheque and give your little girl a cuddle, it's really not worth being mad with her, talk to her about it later when you are calmer

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 20:03:49

Does she understand that it's a lie? It sounds odd that she would be happy to tell you what she told the teacher if she understood it wasn't true and she would be in trouble for it.

IneedAsockamnesty Thu 31-Jan-13 20:04:03

I think your expectations may be a little high.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:04:14

TBH, it's not even the money issue. I'm not 'hard up' or anything, just trying to save so setting myself budgets on things like shopping, days out etc.

It's more the fact that:
I don't feel the school is taking me seriously.
DD is clumsy and a compulsive liar.
I know this is going to keep happening and happening.

hellhasnofurylikeahungrywoman Thu 31-Jan-13 20:05:58

Five year old children have no concept of the value of money. How can they? Money is just something that is there to them. They have never had to work for x amount of hours to earn that money nor have they had to budget to make £x last for y number of days.

Furby2000 Thu 31-Jan-13 20:06:41

Ok, so it's more the lies that worry you, but it will just be a stage and she will outgrow it, especially if you react calmly. She is only 5 and most tell a few lies at this age

sherazade Thu 31-Jan-13 20:06:56

No wonder she lies and makes things up to cover her tracks. You sound like you have an anger problem.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:07:20

Yes, Sam, she realises it's a lie. She has no fear of being told off/disciplined though. she's a very honest liar (think that's called an oxymoron?) She tells lies as if they're the truth. Such as telling me she went to the shops at lunchtime today. I realise it's a lie. So does she. But she says it anyway.

She also told me she was wearing her trainers for P.E today, even though her teacher told me she was wearing her hard school shoes instead. She said her teacher was lying. not her.

neverputasockinatoaster Thu 31-Jan-13 20:08:13

I second, third, whatever, getting yourself over to the Special Needs part of mumsnet - loads of supportive people pver there who will offer a hug, kind word, good slapping with a wet kipper - what ever you need!

I have a DS with an ASD. Before he was diagnosed I wenth through a phase of being horrified at some of the things he did - they were the things that most showed that he was not NT.

You keep saying that the school is lovely, the teacher is lovely, the children are lovely BUT it all comes down to the fact that your daughter is not receiving the support she needs......

When DS was in Reception he had a story sack to bring home every week. At the time I was working full time so he was going to breakfast club and after school club. For about 3 weeks the sodding story sack got left on the playground or get wet in the rain and I was charged. DS was NOT capable of looking after it on his own - none of the other 5YOs in his class were expected to as they had their carers bringing them to school. So, I spoke to school and we arranged that the story sack would be left in the room breakfast club was in and collected by the TA during register. Point is that school needed prodding to put that support in place.

She does need support. Push so that she gets some.

I felt so desperately sorry for you OP - you were angry at your DD and deep down you knew that was wrong. You KNOW your DD is different - she's probably an amazing little girl with a stunning personality! Don't let the opinions of others make you doubt what you know. My Mum did the doubting thing until I got her a book from Amazon about AS.

I offer hugs (shhhhh) and hope you feel OK. I still get really cross with DS at times but I take a deep breath and try very hard to remind myself that he isn't doing it on purpose to annoy me!

Aah no, please don't destroy or throw away anything of hers sad. It won't make any difference, it will just make her upset and confused as to why you're doing it.

You really need to take a step back and be the adult here. I hope you get some ideas and strategies on the boards here and do refer back to Narked's excellent post upthread about rl support and procedures.

sherazade Thu 31-Jan-13 20:08:37

you're going to trash her toys whenever she lies and she's 5!!
This thread is going from bad to worse.
What have you done to teach her that lying is morally wrong?

MrsKeithRichards Thu 31-Jan-13 20:08:41

Lowla can you draw a line under the shoes and the purse. I know it's a lot of money (and people seriously, spending £25 on decent shoes for a child is not crazy, extravagant or indeed unusual) but try to let go of your anger and think about how you can improve things for future.

For what it's worth I do the same. Ds has decent weekend shoes (Clark's trainer type things) and decent school shoes and plimsoles for school.

cumfy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:09:33

MrsMushroom I understand you want to help Lowla, as do I, but unfortunately you're misinterpreting my post.

I'm just gently trying to suggest that in stressful situations like this reactions can be a remarkably accurate reflection of the adult's own childhood experiences.

spiritedaway Thu 31-Jan-13 20:09:36

She's 5. . She shouldn't care, IMO

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:10:22

No, i don't have an anger problem. If you'd read my previous post, you'd know this is the first time I've shown any proper anger towards dd. I'm normally very calm.

DD doesn't lie out of fear. She doesn't have any fear! She just makes up alternative truths. She lies about the simplest of things, such as saying she saw Gran today in school, or that she went on a helicopter ride during playtime, or that she had jam in her sandwiches when i know she had cheese.

KitchenandJumble Thu 31-Jan-13 20:10:29

Listen, OP, I understand that you are stressed and frustrated. God knows, we all can identify with those emotions! But try to put yourself in your DD's position. She really does not understand anything about money. Her comment that you could just buy new shoes demonstrates perfectly that her conception of money is very limited. So it is unfair in the most basic way to blame her for her lack of understanding.

Now imagine you are a small girl. Your mother, who is all-powerful in your world, is so furious with you that she is literally shaking and doesn't even want to look at you. Do you think in that situation you might try to defuse the anger any way you could, including by lying?

Of course you want to teach your DD to be responsible for her possessions. But I think you are expecting far too much of her and then blaming her for simply being a child and being on the autism spectrum, neither of which she has any control over.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 20:10:50

But Lowla a lot of children are like that, even older ones. I told my mum my friend had fireworks that spelt out her name in the sky when I was 7. Total bollocks, she knew it, I knew it, but I liked the idea and I wanted to tell the story.

And children fear getting into trouble. So they just lie. It's easier.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 20:11:07

I feel really sorry for your dd. You do not sound like a rational person at all. Is she afraid of you? Do you have angry outbursts - do you shout at her?

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:11:36


It will keep happening because she is 5 and she will lie if she thinks it is better than the alternative - telling the truth and you being angry. She can't win.

Please try and see that your anger is disproportionate. It sounds like you need some support. Children can't change their behaviour unless we change our approach to them.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 20:11:39

OP are you trying to wind us up? I find myself getting really annoyed at your attitude putting dvds in the bin fgs you sound like you have major problems of your own not your dd are you sure it's not you with the problems ? Fancy being so cruel to he,r you are not nice at all, not how a mum should be behaving you sound like a bully .

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 20:12:12

Lowla, small children don't have the same distinct line between reality and fantasy as adults do. The fact that she's an "honest liar" suggests that she doesn't understand lies/truth the same you do, doesn't it?

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 20:12:41

Oh dear - just read that you do shout at her. Can't you see that this is harmful?

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:12:45

At first I was full of sympathy for you OP, but honestly your latest posts are infuriating!

Your lovely little girl isn't deliberately being 'a compulsive liar' ffs!

She's 5 years old, has ASD and has a Mummy who is furious with her for no rational reason or fault of her own!!

I would suggest perhaps talking to someone in RL about your feelings, someone who's researched and understands ASD really shouldn't be reacting to a small child in the way that you are.


Catchingmockingbirds Thu 31-Jan-13 20:13:37

My son is 5 and has ASD. He loses things a lot, I understand the frustration, but it's not his fault and not your Dd's fault either. She's not doing it maliciously.

You need to come up with a new strategy for school, the lunch money isn't working so give her coins every day instead. The school may encourage giving children the money once a week but I'm sure they didn't base this rule on a 5 year old child with SN so you have to adapt to suit her.

Speak to her teacher about missing clothes/items and try and think of a strategy together, a checklist at the end of the day for her maybe so she remembers everything? Or ask for a special tray she can keep her stuff in so it's all together in the one place?

Good luck.

LaQueen Thu 31-Jan-13 20:14:19

My DD1 is nearly 10, but is forgetful. I have lost count of the school cardis/hair-bands/socks/PE kit she has lost over the years.

It's why I never spend more than £10 on trainers for her, and her school PE kit and track-suit are from Asda. Because she cannot be trusted.

In September, I bravely bought her a more expensive track-suit from M&S. She had lost the bottoms by Xmas...and her slightly more expensive trainers went missing for 4 weeks (but later turned up).

And, she never, ever knows where they have gone. And, yet she is currently confidently working out some quite tricky fractions (secondary school level stuff) at the kitchen table.

But I wouldn't trust her with a £10 note to take into school.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:14:25

My dd is receving the support she needs. She has a individual learning plan, and her SALT teacher has devised a plan with class teacher, which class teacher incorporates into lessons every day. They've bought in a special learning programme/course for dd too. Which the staff have all trained themselves in and the teacher uses in class.

The only issue is the missing stuff. The school is brilliant, and dd loves it there.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:15:12

I think you need some help to understand her ASD. Even if she didn't have ASD it sounds like you don't really have a perspective on 5 year olds, or you are too stressed to see her POV. That's maybe not your fault, but she will be the one to suffer.

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:15:52

And what about the way you're reacting to her OP? From the way you've described your reactions to her this evening I'd say that's a pretty obvious 'issue'.

sherazade Thu 31-Jan-13 20:16:12

I thought autistic children are not prone to lying so often.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 20:16:14

No the only issue is you.

Kiriwawa Thu 31-Jan-13 20:16:32

Deep breaths Lowla. What can you do to make things better?

Things that spring immediately to my mind are (DS, 6 is being assessed for HFA so I have been where you are):

-is everything labelled? I label EVERYTHING - with stickers, sewn in labels, massive felt pen
- don't ever buy expensive stuff. I did once and it was a total waste of time/money. Everything is cheap. Buy her a cheap pair of shoes that nearly fit - honestly the difference between width fittings/lengths is tiny. Wearing shoes which don't fit properly for 1/2 an hour's PE at the age of 5 is not going to lead to lasting damage
- make an appointment with her teacher. Easter is too far away. Tell her that she is losing things and ask how the school can support her. Tell them that she is not capable of being responsible for her dinner money and that their system does not work for your DD.

You need to take control of this and talk adult to adult to the teacher. They know she has difficulties so they need to help her or check that she has everything.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 31-Jan-13 20:17:29

Chances are the things will turn up. What you need to do is come up with strategies to help avoiding the confusing muddle that ensues as a result of things getting misplaced.

Phone the school tomorrow or go to the office after drop of and speak to someone. Your dd has needs. She needs a little support getting these things done. Surely to goodness they can't prevent her accessing school dinners because of one incident. Tell someone you will be dropping the tenner into the office. Speak up, demand they accommodate your daughters needs.

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 20:17:58

I think the only issue is that your expectations way are beyond what most 5 year olds are capable of, particularly a 5 year old with additional needs.

Small children lose things, they can't be trusted with money, they get confused, they are emotionally immature and they live in a fantasy world half the time!

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:17:59

Not necessarily, my DS1 will occasionally fib, from the fantastical to the mundane, yep, he's autistic, but sometimes they can also just be kids being kids.

sherazade Thu 31-Jan-13 20:18:08

I have a boy with asd in my class. We have a special provision for collecting his reading book in because he kept on losing it, never mind money to the sum of 10 pounds.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 20:18:28

Also you have said that money is not the issue here as you are not short of money - so why all the stress?

confusteling Thu 31-Jan-13 20:19:23

sherazade, that's what I thought. My Dsis is severely autistic and I've always been told autistic people don't understand the concept of fantasy or lying!

cumfy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:22:06

I would suggest that DD's lies are being told because she is scared to tell the truth.sad

aPseudonymToFoolHim Thu 31-Jan-13 20:22:59

I've never sent my kids to school with cash, in case it's lost.
We pay by cheque as I can just write another if it gets lost.
Even secondary schools don't recommend taking cash in, students have cards that parents top up online.

Hope you've calmed down a bit now smile

My DS is 8 and has ASD. I label all his school things, I even put iron on name tags on the fronts of his clothing. Helps him find them and stops others "mistakenly" keeping them. Did you see the thread on here not so long back about blatent stealing of kid's school stuff?

You are expecting way way too much of her and the way you are talking about her and how you feel is off the charts!

Why does your DD's full school not have any TAs? Not one?
Why do they expect and encourage parents to send 5 yr olds in with ten pound notes?
Why is there no understanding that your DD has ASD and will struggle with looking after her things?
Why do they not have an open door policy, and the chance to speak to teachers at the start or end of day?

Have you looked to see if there is a local branch of NAS in your area? There's one in mine and it's a fab source of support.

Wabbally Thu 31-Jan-13 20:24:38


Firstly, calm down. You being angry with her is like being cross with a dog for barking.

She CANNOT help it. Therefore, you need to adapt your routines to compensate, this is what parents of AS kids do.

Take her dinner money money into the school at the start of each day/week/fortnight/month/term, write her name in everything, even have her wear her PE kit under her normal school clothes on the day she has PE but please, please stop the anger.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:25:15

No my dd is not scared of me. She's not scared of anything. Discipline of any kind has no effect on her at all: telling her off, naughty step, no bedtime story, no TV etc etc.

Her DVDs seem to be the only thing that actually mean something to her. So taking them from her might finally be the disciplinary method that works.

And no i don't have an anger problem. I've just had a very rare outburst, and made the mistake of telling people about it.

Her lying isn't just every now and then. Almost every sentence that comes out of her mouth is a lie. I seriously can't tell the difference between her telling the truth and lie.

I ask her what she did at school today. She lies.
I ask her who she played with today. She lies.
I ask her what book is she looking at. She lies - even though i can see it.

And she doesn't care!

I don't think you realise how bloody frustrating it is to be fed lies every single time you try and have a conversation with your daughter.

I realise they're just stupid lies, but they're still lies. If the checkout lady asks what age she is, dd will lie to her, and when i correct her, dd makes out i'm lying!

I dread to think what she tells the school about me, because dd constantly tells me her teacher bit her today, or the office lady poured water on her etc etc.

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:25:44

With regards to lying, my DS doesn't lie for the sake of lying, iyswim, he'll say something because he wants to believe it, or it's something he's engaged with at that particular time.

If you have experience with a family member who's autistic might I remind you that ASD is a spectrum, and every child and their capabilities are different.

You cannot overly stereotype or pigeonhole autistic behaviours!

pingusmum Thu 31-Jan-13 20:25:56

I think you have to take control and force the school to work with you even more than you say they are.
Insist on paying the dinner money yourself
Recognise children fantasise ie/ I went to the moon today mummy(my 5yr old) is not a LIE, it's imagination.. fantasy.

sunnybobs Thu 31-Jan-13 20:26:01

Oh dear it sounds like one of those hideous days where you (the mummy) has got very tired, very stressed & needs a break. Have you got support at home or are you doing this alone? If you on your own no wonder you're exhausted & fed up & I think you need more support - an ASD support group might really help. I think you need to draw a line under the lost items - in the grand scheme of things they really really don't matter. There are some things which can & should be addressed - notably the school policy on dinner money etc does not help or address the needs of your child (nor most 5 year olds and to be honest as a secondary school teacher nor most teenagers!) and therefore must and should be adapted/changed for your DD. You are clearly doing a great job with your DD if she is able to do things like sit in the other room & draw pictures for you to cheer you up - look at the fantastic skills she's showing, kindness, empathy, concern for others, spending time on her own etc and that's fabulous even without her SEN diagnosis. I think this incident is more about your reaction than what happened. Write to the school (much more effective than speaking to individuals I've found) explaining what needs to happen to suit you for dinner money & lost items, go and speak to your GP about feelings of anxiety, stress etc & perhaps seek out some RL support groups. Above all remember you sound like you've done a really good job so far & keep on remembering that. Try and show your lovely DD the same kindness hopefully you also deserve. As to the lying - meh truth is a bit moveable at that age I think & if she's worried about upsetting you that is probably of prime concern in her head & she'll say/do anything to not upset you.

sherazade Thu 31-Jan-13 20:26:46

YourHandInMyHand, totally agree. We have in our school TAs to chase things up who are aware of the children with SN who need extra support to keep their things together and prevent things being misplaced. We do not expect or encourage our children to bring in money. We are flexible with out routines for children with SN so everyone for exmaple empties out their bag in the morning into the right baskets- fruit basket, reading book, library book, homework. The children are encouraged and praised and expected to do this independently by now bar those with SN who genuinely struggle and lose/forget. We have an open door policy morning and afternoon and I listen to every parent who needs me and don't usually finish till 9.30!

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:27:19

What seems to be riling you is the thought of you being blamed, thought to be a bad mum. Am i right?

Think how your DD feels then, about being blamed.

I also think that when i get most angry it is when i am most worried, and i get angry with the person i'm worried about, which is totally counter- productive. Is that what you might be doing, OP?

If so, you have to talk to someone about the worry. Not punish the person you are worried about

CheeseStrawWars Thu 31-Jan-13 20:27:27

Lowla, you realise that children only develop the ability to tell fantasy/wish from reality between the age of 3-5? It's a developmental thing. I'm sure your daughter is not a "compulsive liar". Please think about the labels you're dumping on your child.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 31-Jan-13 20:28:48

My DS can tell some whoppers; "DS did you eat all your snack today?" "I tried to but the bin jumped up and took my snack off me" "So you put it in the bin then?" "yes".

If it's a half size she needs then get cheap sandshoes a half size bigger and get insoles to put in the shoes. PE lessons aren't that long at that age after you take into consideration getting 30 5 year olds changed into PE kit and back into uniform again so it won't cause huge amounts of damage.

School may be supporting her academically but they are not supporting her with routines, organisation or socially. You need to push for more input with these issues.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:29:34


Good point.

cumfy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:30:13

I dread to think what she tells the school about me,

What do you think she is telling the school about you ?

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:30:45

Bowing out of this one, I'd be heartbroken to think anyone ever thought about my boys in that way, so dismissive and angry.

I couldn't even begin to fathom feeling that much resentment towards my child, even on the toughest days (and my god there's a lot of them) I remind myself that it's not their fault they behave and react differently to other children their ages might.

Sickened and saddened sad

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 20:30:57

I have a 7 year old relative and still half the things she says are pure fantasy! What she had for lunch today, that she went to a princess party with her best friend last night and they played on an iPad, she's going to move house, she's getting a parrot...

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:31:01

TBH, hearing things like 'i didn't think autistic kids told lies' makes me think you're the ones who ought to research ASD more. What a stereotypical view.

DD is very honest. She says what she sees and thinks. She also lies, because she has a vivid imagination (yes -people with ASD really can have imaginations too), so will lie about the simplest things, to the extreme things. My worry is that she can't tell the difference between the two, but maybe she's just a good liar.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 20:32:10

I seriously think that you need to start understanding your dd's ASD and how about throwing in some empathy her way too? She is not doing this to hurt you. You need to be less selfish and look beyond yourself and how this makes you feel - it sounds to me like she is dealing with a great deal with you the way that you are.

She is a child - from reading your posts one might think that you were of a similar age.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:32:31

Are you reading anything we have written.

We are trying to help, support. Your answers are getting more rigid.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 20:32:36

Lowla I do get that you're frustrated. I think you've had a lot of good replies here.

My mum also thinks I'm scared of nothing and she has always said so. But I have always been petrified of her.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:32:42

C'mon countrykitten that is waaaay over the top to the op! Bloody hell, just because the op is 'angry' it doesn't mean her dd is scared of her!

KitchenandJumble Thu 31-Jan-13 20:33:08

O.K., it sounds as though your child may still be uncertain about the line between fantasy and reality. She may believe that if she tells a story about something, then it will come true. It's a kind of magical thinking, and it isn't particularly unusual among very small children. Due to her ASD, she may be in this stage a bit later than some children.

I'm afraid you do sound extremely angry and resentful of your child. I very much doubt that punishing her by throwing away her DVDs will have any effect other than to hurt and bewilder her.

MechanicalTheatre Thu 31-Jan-13 20:33:30

Lowla at that age a lot of kids CAN'T tell the difference between fantasy and reality.

It's so totally normal.

Maryz Thu 31-Jan-13 20:34:34

So far this week ds (who admittedly has ADHD) has lost his rugby boots, his towel, his maths folder, his calculator and a hoodie.

He has forgotten to bring home books for an exam tomorrow.

He has forgotten to hand in an assignment that was due last Friday - he has done it, just not handed it in.

He has also lost his lunch card (twice) and his ipod.

Luckily his friends find most of his belongings for him at this stage.

He is 14 grin.

I think you are expecting too much of your dd. And getting angry with her really won't help.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:37:39

Why don't you demand a meeting with the school/her teacher and explain how your dd is at home and say you need more support and that you cannot trust your dd with the school money etc. they should be helping you not hindering you and giving you no support

CheerfulYank Thu 31-Jan-13 20:37:45

Deep breaths.

From what I know of the ASD kids I've worked with, she does know they're lies but doesn't know it's wrong to lie iyswim. She will probably outgrow that. The clumsiness, maybe not.

I would really try to set up a meeting with the school. Perhaps she could have a binder with checklists so the teacher knows exactly what she's brought to school and can tell DD "look here, Mummy's checked off the picture of the gym shoes so I know she packed them. Where can they be?" And I would demand request a different system for lunch money. She has SN and they need to make allowances for that.

Fwiw, I have always been an, "oh I'll just buy another one" type of person. I care deeply about people and relationships, but not really money or things. Drove my mother CRAZY when I was little. I'm the same now that it's my own money...just not bothered by lost or broken things. I can appreciate that it is incredibly frustrating though. I DO get irritated now when DS can't find his mittens or things like that because it always happens two seconds before we have to leave for school and running to the shop isn't an option!

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 20:37:47

Sorry you are right. I am just very worried about the anger and resentment this woman clearly feels towards her child - it chills me tbh.

But as I said, you are right and I cannot offer any support to the OP as I feel that she is in need of help beyond that which an internet forum can provide.

I wish your dd luck OP.

DameMargotFountain Thu 31-Jan-13 20:38:22


my DD is 5 and has ASD

she loses stuff all the time

she can also tell lies, only she doesn't realise they are lies. often they are her interpretation of the truth.

she can tell lies because she doesn't have the theory of mind to understand the impact of not telling the truth.

cumfy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:39:17

I am still curious Lowla did your parents' have similar expectations about your behaviour at around 5 years ?

suburbophobe Thu 31-Jan-13 20:44:27

Poor child, 5 years old and having to have financial responsibility for making sure her school dinner money is being paid.

Why are you putting this responsibility on her?

You cannot expect a 5 year old to have that kind of responsibility. They are in the play/learning stage.

Why on earth is the school not collecting this via internet banking?
Are they stuck in a time-warp?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:44:56

The reason my answers are getting rigid is because i feel like a lot of you are suggesting i am sort of abuser!

Cumfy - thanks for quoting just a tiny part of my post, putting me into a terrible light. I said dd tells me that her teacher bites her and hits her, so i dread to think what the teacher hears about me. As in, i wouldn't like dd saying to her teacher that i bite and hit her. (which i don't - just thought i'd clarify that for all the people who think i'm some sort of deranged child beater).

I'm also a bit shocked that so many of you say you don't discipline your children. Why the shock over me admitting i tell my dd off when she does something wrong? Confiscating her DVDs is something i'll try, and i pray it works. Because nothing else has. Unless you suggest i never attempt to discipline my child, and let her bring herself up/have free reign?

For the millionth time, i don't have an anger problem. I've just had a shit day. But it seems you can't admit that on here without being diagnosed as having anger issues.

My dd is not scared of me. She's scared of no one. She would tell me if she was. When i was telling her off today she was full of smiles. Which is probably why i got really mad. Because she wasn't realising she had made me angry.

The only reason she made me the picture and letter was because she wanted her TV show on. After i received them, she said "Now can i watch TV?" and got pissed off when i said no. "But why not? I've made you a picture?"

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:47:30

Cumfy - i have no memory of being five. So i have no idea what my parents' expectations of me were. What an odd question...

minkembra Thu 31-Jan-13 20:48:16

Look.on the bright side, kids generally do.lie. it is a developmental stage. it means a) she has an imagination and b) she is experimenting with fact and fiction. She's creative.
and there was a study that said early liars rarely grow up to lie anymore then others but are often success in business.

Don't punish her for lying, reward her If she tells the truth.

Think your anger us a separate issue. some days I am proper furious the next day i realise it was OTT hormonal reaction. At the time i am convinced i am right.

pigletmania Thu 31-Jan-13 20:48:34

Lowla the school ate not supporting her enough if her things are going missing, she is only 5. When you hand her ivereacting they are in loco parentis e tey are responsible not your dd! My dd sed to lie as she did nt undersnd what wasa sed f her. You are getting very defensive and angry with te wrong people

jamaisjedors Thu 31-Jan-13 20:48:52

I don't understand why you say "she hasn't shown any remorse", when she drew you a picture and wrote you a note to promise she wouldn't do it again!

That's more than my 5 year old would do!

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 20:49:00

The teacher will have heard a million bizarre stories from 5 year olds over the years though, so I doubt she thinks anything.

No one is saying don't discipline, but discipline has to be appropriate! Your expectations of your little girl are unreasonable - losing things and making stuff up is not really naughty behaviour, is it confused

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:49:20

People are reacting to the venom you're spouting OP.

The levels of resentment you're displaying are shocking. We all have awful days, we don't all react to that extreme.

Perhaps try to understand your poor little girl, empathise with her, and ask for more RL support to help you have strategies in place that are effective for her and her needs.

Pagwatch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:49:33

I have not tried to paint you in any kind of light.

But ithinkyou ou need to hear the mass of parents here, trying to support you and telling you that you are placing unrealistic expectations upon your DD.

She and you are destined for failure unless you hear what people are trying o tell you.

My son has autism. I use discipline but only in a way that is effective. You are in danger of using it just to punish her because you are having such a hard time

DameMargotFountain Thu 31-Jan-13 20:49:45

fwiw, i don't think you have an anger problem, OP

you are very rigid in your perception, and do not seem to be able to understand anyone elses train of thought...

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:50:24

Jamais, she only did that because she wanted her TV show on- not because she was sorry for losing her things. She was trying to figure out a way in which i'd let her watch the telly, that is all.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 31-Jan-13 20:50:54

She's 5 years old. YABU.

cumfy Thu 31-Jan-13 20:50:55

Cumfy - i have no memory of being five

A lot of people can remember that age and how their parents acted.

I'm not sure it's that odd.

Do you really think it's an odd question Lowla ?

Pagwatch Thu 31-Jan-13 20:51:18

What do you want from the thread ?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 20:52:08

What resentment?! I love my dd to bits.

I was pissed off with her earlier. I was in a state of tears and feeling angry. I couldn't bring myself to look at her because she was annoying me.

It lasted two hours. Two hours out of her five year life. Hardly means i hate my daughter, does it?

It means i was temporarily frustrated with her.

SamSmalaidh Thu 31-Jan-13 20:52:30

She's FIVE! OP, you seem to be missing this point - she is emotionally immature. More than most 5 year olds even, due to her ASD.

elizaregina Thu 31-Jan-13 20:52:47

my DD is 5 and I would be angry with the school not her if she was constantly loosing things, have only skim read here but when DD came home without her jumper it was the school I was annoyed with - we label everything and they are all still learning and you can imagine the pandimonion when changing for stuff etc, I expect the teachers to be aware of this and to help them.

My DD is learning about how to take care of things ( which she does generally) and the value of things - if she looses a toy when we are out - she is still learning what that means in terms of money etc...

I would also never ever give her a weeks money, its not just her I dont trust but the others! Sometimes it seems so chaotic at her school. I dont think anyone would steal it but i can imagine it being used in play or scattered everywhere.

Are you sure others arnt taking it off her or bullying?

I would def speak to the school as others have said.

Also I am sure I read somewhere that lying at this age is developmental and is all part of them making up stories.
My DD has only just started to make up stories all the time....and alot of the time she can't remember or wont tell me alot about her day which lots of friends complain of too with thier DC, sometimes she does change her story " i played with X, " then later " I didnt play with x".

I tend to ingore things like that.

I am not sure what my DD understands of her day. I remeber being confused at school when I was that age and looking at a clock face trying to learn the time, I didnt know what I was doing there, what the point of it all was , what was expected of me etc...

I think its so touching that she is in another room drawing you a picture that is so sweet. I also know of alot of mums whose children wouldn't be that thoughtful. Thats a wonderful sign of affection there.

AllThatGlistens Thu 31-Jan-13 20:52:53

Why don't you take the focus of what you believe your DD is 'doing wrong' and try to focus on all of the things you could do to make life easier for her instead of concentrating all your energy in finding fault with her?

Jesus sad

My daughter is 5, she doesn't have ASD, BUT I would still never ever give her the kind of responsibiilty you are expecting from your child. Your expectations are totally unrealistic. She is merely an infant.

I take my DD's dinner money into the office and hand it in. as do most of the other parents of yr 1 children. When i pick her up from school i check she has all her shit-if she doesn't we go back in to find it together.

minkembra Thu 31-Jan-13 20:55:33

You do seem very worried the school and other people believe her and not you.
Other people know kids lie. she probably lies at school and i am sure they know she is creative with the facts and if you say you did give her trainers they have no reason not to believe you.

Incidentally my kids' school also expect 5 year olds to do their own diner money in an envelope with their name on front i put it in the bag and usually it is still their until Wednesday when they finally remember to hand it in. the school always gives them their dinners though on the basis that you will pay eventually.

When I look back at old holiday photos of my young dd (now 12), I am always struck by how little she was at 3, 4 or 5. And I remember being so cross when she wouldn't sit for an hour in a restaurant without crawling under the table/bothering other diners at that age. My expectations of behaviour were so high, and I only realise it now, with the benefit of hindsight.

5 is so young. Really tiny sad

and your little girl is crying out for you to be with her, what a sweet lovely gesture to draw you a picture. That should be melting your heart not turning you stone cold and angry.

CheeseStrawWars Thu 31-Jan-13 20:57:23

"It's annoying me that the school think i'm the clumsy/forgetful one" - you're taking it far too personally. You have issues if your need for approval from the school/perceived authority figures overpowers your ability to parent your child in an empathetic way. Your child is not doing these things to piss you off. She is doing them because she's 5. That's what 5 year olds do. Yes, it's annoying, but a little perspective please?

You have anger issues if the feelings you express here are an accurate reflection of what your state of mind.

You need to get some space and perspective. Do you have a DP/parent who can give you a break? Think about what is really important: that you have a good relationship with your daughter, or the school thinks you're a good mum? Shit happens, kids lose stuff. Life goes on. Let it go. Just because she's not sobbing dejectedly on the floor doesn't mean she hasn't learned anything. It sounds like it would make you feel better if she was - but that's satisfying your need for vengeance rather than helping her learn. Learning is a process.

She is 5. She is learning. She will not always be like this. But you might always be this sort of parent if the responses on here don't tell you that you might need to rethink your approach.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 20:59:08

I've only read your op but just wanted to say . . . SHE'S 5! Even without the asd you are expecting way too much from a child that age! WAY too much.

I don't know of any parents who would give their children a purse of money and expect them to keep it safe.

You need to adjust your expectations. Your daughter must be so upset that she is disappointing you and making you angry when things are happening that she has very limited control over at that age.

You are setting her up to fail.

Re lies: ds and dd were just the same, not lying, often just saying what they wished was true, what would have been nice, or what they think someone wants to hear.
Of course, no concept of money- it comes out of a hole in the wall and the only mystery is why you don't take more.
Dd with no fear of anything-inc. heights, traffic, people tying rope round neck and jumping- you name it, thought I'd have her on reins forever.

But they are not mini adults-their minds are not like ours. Your dd sounds a pet actually, wanting to cheer you up. (When ds wanted to cheer me up he loaded his school bag with rubbish for me, because he knew I liked throwing things away). I found it happened all over again with teenage rewiring. ("Your bus is leaving.""BUt I am not ready." But your bus is leaving NOW" "BUT I AM NOT READY NOW.")

It is hard work, and you have to do loads of thinking for them, but five years old is very very little.

dayshiftdoris Thu 31-Jan-13 21:00:43

Every child is unique and that goes for those on the spectrum.

OP I could have written your post a hundred times.

Its utterly frustrating - last year cost me well over £150 in lost items but I soon cottoned on that he was incapable of doing this and as such school needed to support him (they didnt but thats another story) and when he eventually got support the problem got better. I am not sure if he was just disorganised and losing stuff but then it wasnt there when I searched so I suspected that someone was taking advantage of his difficulties.

My son does what your daughter is doing and I am told its common on the spectrum... its not lying but because they can't process the communication / situation they avoid it by manipulated / trying to control what they can. Its common (I am told) in children who are higher intelligence. It leads to all sorts of issues... 'no snack, my mum doesnt give me any'... It was in his bag, I showed it him in his bag and he was taking it out and leaving it at home / in the car but ofcourse he knew that wasn't the right think to do so he deflected... I always gave him the healthy snack school said I should but his 'mates' had chocolate and cake so he didnt want it...

And I have a million incidents like that... only yesterday he told the teacher I hadnt told him about a school disco when I had, twice and put the leaflet where he could see it.... but no I am looked at like some restrictive parent.

I spoke at length to his comm paed about it... she told me its really, really common and its gets worse when they are very anxious as they are trying to make the anxiety feelings better anyway they can.

Its wearing, it makes you feel awful and yes I have lost my rag too... this behaviour has cost this family dear and I have tried various strategies to no avail. We are still tackling it and school still dont see it though writing reams in a communication book helps to cover myself.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:00:44

Dame - are you trying to subtly imply i may have autism?

So from this thread, i've learned i have anger issues and could possibly be autistic. Wow.

I completely understand my expectations of her are too high. And i'll take that on board. Sometimes i think she's older than what she is because she's so smart. She's also the youngest in her class, so seeing her peers so much more emotionally/socially advanced than her is also intimidating. She looks like a baby compared to them.

IMO - her telling me today that she had her trainers on for P.E when she didn't, is a lie. And the fact she then called her teacher a liar makes me feel like she deserved to be told off. It had no effect. She still said her teacher was lying. And she'll continue lying like this until she knows there will be consequences. And confiscating her DVDs might be the only consequence that will mean something to her. IMO, it's worth a shot.

FWIW - thanks for all the advice and support. Reading back, i sound like a bitch. I've gone on the defensive. But i think a lot of people would do if a bunch of random people (who don't know me or dd) stated my dd feared me, i have serious anger issues, i'd sickened people with my thread, i resented my daughter, i have no understanding of her ASD (despite them suggesting kids with ASD can't lie!) and much more.

bamboostalks Thu 31-Jan-13 21:02:27

Have you been diagnosed with ASD yourself?

elizaregina Thu 31-Jan-13 21:03:54

oh yes forgot to say my DD told my DSIL that " mummy and dadddy hit each other!!!!!"

We most certainly do not and I have no idea where it came from! Thankfully my DSIL laughed and we all laughed but if she had said that to the PILS - my god they would belive it - and probably be calling the SS on us so they could adopt her!

You don't know what other children are saying at school either.

She also told the nusery teachers that " mummy lost a baby", which I didnt!

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:08:41

It's good to hear that a lot of your children lie/fantasise too. DD does it with everything though. And i'm not exaggerrating(sp). From the minute i wake her, to tuck her in, she just lies.

"Morning, dd, did you have a nice sleep?" "No, i stayed awake all night."

"Okay, dd, have you eaten your breakfast?" "Yes, but i was so hungry i poured myself another bowl."

I can't even remember the last time we discussed something that didn't contain at least one lie.

Dayshiftdoris - thank you. Your experience sounds really, really similar to mine.

Nordicmom Thu 31-Jan-13 21:08:50

I know it's infuriating but she is only 5 and I've now had to deal with this for the 4th school year with DS 8y. I label everything and a couple of things never turned up anyway. He is pretty good but this school year started with 3/4 first days things going missing inc his school door key fob thing thats been lost twice now and only found once etc. Just keep at it they will learn to look after their own stuff eventually if you keep on expecting them to and talking to them about it .Until then it's a matter of labelling things, having spares and trying to track missing things down at the school and emailing other parents...
I feel like I have to to stay on top of things with DS , DH and now with DD too arrrgh its annoying being responsible for everyones things and remembering everything because none else is !

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:12:20

No, Bamboo, why? Do you also think i have it?

ASD cannot be diagnosed over the internet. It takes at least a year of appointments, waiting lists and reports.


Pag - what do i want from this thread? Really, i made it to vent. I needed to talk to another adult about how i was feeling. I needed to hear i was being unreasonable feeling so angry. Which i accept i was. And i feel stupid.

What i didn't expect was the nasty replies saying i resent my daughter and she is frightened of me. Ridiculous.

KateShmate Thu 31-Jan-13 21:13:30

FGS you are being absolutely ridiculous!

Essentially, you are putting her DVD's in the bin because she lost the £10 that you gave to her, the 5YO?!
One minute you are saying that she is 'lying' because she said that she 'lost' the money/trainers/blazer; the next minute you are saying that you can't bare to think about the child who is wearing the blazer/trainers and has the £10 - implying that another child has taken them? If you think that another child has taken the blazer/money/trainers, why on earth are you blaming your daughter?! And if you think she is 'lying' and that she has 'lost' them... then they would surely just be hanging around somewhere in her classroom? Where else would a 5YO possibly be able to lose that many things?

My DD2 is 5 and I can guarantee that if I gave her £10 for dinner money, she would probably swap the whole lot for a bloody leaf or something similar. They don't have a concept of money? If you know that she loses things easily, then maybe you shouldn't have given her the £10 in the first place.

No one has said that they don't discipline their children - it's the fact that you are saying that you will throw DD's DVD's away because she keeps lying. That is exactly what 5YO's do. Only it is called having an imagination . She is not a compulsive liar, she simply has a vivid imagination and sounds like she is trying to have a bit of fun?
If you are really that bothered about her telling you the wrong title of the book/ saying the wrong age, then just make a light joke of it and cheerily say 'No DD, you're 5 now! smile '

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:14:32

I think something visual like a little card/checklist in dd's bag will help. She loves ticking things (she gets me to spell words and then tick them if correct), so i think this could work. I'll just need to find some way of sticking it to her bag.

CwtchesAndCuddles Thu 31-Jan-13 21:14:51

OP you sound like you are at the end of your teather and need some help getting to grips with the ASD.

I don't think the school are doing all they can, however lovely they are it sounds like they are not really meeting her needs.

You have had some constructive responses and some really ignorant ones - in future use the special needs board to vent your frustrations, it's a much kinder place!

CheeseStrawWars Thu 31-Jan-13 21:15:38

Leaving aside the developmental aspect of lying vs wish-fulfillment - if you take her DVDs off her, you are teaching her if she lies then Mummy takes things away. You're not advancing her understanding of the impact lying has...

Have you actually explained what the effect of lying is? "If you tell lies, then I don't know when you really mean things?" "If you tell me your teacher is lying then the teacher will get in trouble and is that fair/right?".

Are you supporting her learning with e.g. these DVDs of hers, use them to talk about situations where the characters might lie and get themselves into trouble as illustration. Or off the top of my head, there's a Charlie and Lola episode where Lola calls help when she's not really in trouble, so Charlie doesn't believe her when she does need help, for instance. It's on YouTube, "Help I Really Mean It". That's the way you can help her learn.

Pagwatch Thu 31-Jan-13 21:17:25

I think, if you read the thread back perhaps in the morning, you have had lots of supportive posts. I hope you can get some advice within those.

I think venting is good. But honestly I think you need some support.
I am not sure you are chosing the most productive methods of helping yourself and your DD. I hope you have somewhere to get advice.
Are you on the SN board. There are people who understand how challenging life is and have experience of working through tough times.

elizaregina Thu 31-Jan-13 21:17:39

A friend of mine when he visited used noticed when my DD was going thru a particulary " naughty" phase that I kept saying this too her - usually not in a serious or angry way - more looking over specs on the end of the nose way ....." you havant been ...naughty....have you etc"

My friend said " be really careful not to label her and put her in a box, your word is god at the moment - and what you say she will be. For instance..." you dont like brocoli do you" affirms that and reminds her of it all the time, as well as saying naughty. "

Anyway I took more notice of things I was saying and focused on the postive and we definalty turned a corner - probably because she grew up a bit more as well...but I do try and not re affirm and go on about negative things all the time.

I wonder if your doing this un wittingly...are you lying again, you always lie - cant you tell the truth, IF you say things like this maybe try not too and focus on the postive...or wow - thats interesting and run with it, the "lie" make it sounds like you enjoy it and turn it into a story.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:18:09

No, Kate, the DVDs will be confiscated when she tells a big lie/something bad/something that can hurt other people. Not when she loses things.

When she says 'light lies', such as her saying she didn't sleep last night, i shrug it off and smile (but sigh inside "I wish i could have a real conversation with my daughter for once).

I do think the purse and money have been picked up in the yard or something and pocketed by another child. Perhaps an older one. It would take a very honest/good child to hand in £10.

discrete Thu 31-Jan-13 21:18:14

Your daughter sounds like exactly what I was like at her age.

It drove my mother round the bend, as money was tight and she was working all hours to make ends meet, so I can really empathise with the way you must be feeling.

She still keeps the diary I wrote at the time. Every day it says 'today I have lost xxxx. I must learn to be more responsible'.

I honestly, genuinely, had no ill intent at all. I just lived in my own fantasy world and material possessions had no meaning to me. I lied constantly because I forgot what was 'real' and what was not.

I have turned out to be completely normal, with no particular issues relating to losing things. I am a bit absent-minded, and not particularly in love with 'stuff', but I am very responsible and careful with my possessions.

But no amount of anger from my mum made any difference to anything other than her blood pressure.

bamboostalks Thu 31-Jan-13 21:20:29

Just wondered. Wasn't diagnosing. Good luck.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:21:20

Thanks, Cheese. Yes, that's always been my approach. Explaining why a lie is bad. Explaining how it affects other people. Her SALT has also devised a social story to help with this. Nothing's helped.

Yep, we watch TV together. And she seems to really pick up what the characters are doing. But although she can observe it when i explain it to her, she doesn't seem to relate to it.

IMO, explaining and confiscating a DVD each time she tells a big lie might help. It's worth a shot anyway.

piprabbit Thu 31-Jan-13 21:21:52

This thread is one of the most distressing I have read for a while.

I think that the school have some very weird ideas about what a child of 5yo is capable of - there are definitely things that the OP could useful discuss with the school, especially in the light of extra support she might need. Perhaps dinner money could be handed to the class teacher on arrival for safe-keeping until the time comes to load their cards with cash.

However, the OP seems to be so angry with a small child who is behaving pretty normally and struggling to live up to the expectations that everyone is placing on her. There seems to be no empathy or understanding, no ideas for making DD's life simpler or trying to resolve any of the problems, there is just blame and anger and a sense that DD would be "better" if she just tried harder. This is so, so sad.

From a practical point of view the OP could so the following:
a) Speak to the school about how they can help DD - what coping strategies do they suggest for a 5yo with SEN?
b) Find some RL life support with experience of children with ASD - perhaps a local group for parents, or a local charity who work in this area (for example we have the excellent SNAP in Essex).
c) Get on a parenting course - to develop parenting strategies and share ideas and information on how to cope with young children and what can be reasonably expected of them.

Good luck OP and OP's DD.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 21:23:44

I lied when I was a kid for a quiet life this what your dd is doing OP?

littlemisssarcastic Thu 31-Jan-13 21:25:21

Op, you say "For the millionth time, i don't have an anger problem. I've just had a shit day. But it seems you can't admit that on here without being diagnosed as having anger issues. "

Seriously, what do you expect people to think when they are reading what you have written here?

She just doesn't give a shit.
I honestly feel like punching a wall.
Argh! She's in the next room loudly drawing a picture and saying to herself, "This will sure cheer mummy up! Her favourite - a butterfly!"

Dreading her coming in to give me it, because i'm really still angry with her and i'll end up hurting her feelings.

I'm at the end of my tether with her.
I'm just so angry with her!
It's costing me a fortune and she just doesn't care.
Argh! I can't stop crying! I'm actually shaking with anger.
I feel like screaming!
DD's now tantrumming next door about a toy she can't fix. Scared to go in and sort it though because i think it'll set me off again.
i honestly can't even bring myself to look at her right now. She's just so bloody annoying.
I was telling her off all round ASDA after school while buying new trainers and was getting some dirty looks off people. At the time, i felt like ripping their heads off. Especially the old woman who put her trolley in the middle of the aisle, and then tutted at me when i moved it out my way!
i've just told dd that for every time she lies to me, i'm putting one of her DVDs in the bin. Harsh maybe, but i'm sick to death of her lying to me all the time.
DD is clumsy and a compulsive liar.
She has no fear of being told off/disciplined though.
DD doesn't lie out of fear. She doesn't have any fear!
No my dd is not scared of me. She's not scared of anything. Discipline of any kind has no effect on her at all: telling her off, naughty step, no bedtime story, no TV etc etc.
Almost every sentence that comes out of her mouth is a lie. I seriously can't tell the difference between her telling the truth and lie.
I ask her what she did at school today. She lies.
I ask her who she played with today. She lies.
I ask her what book is she looking at. She lies - even though i can see it.

And she doesn't care!

maybe she's just a good liar.
My dd is not scared of me. She's scared of no one. She would tell me if she was.

Every sentence referring to a 5 year old!!!

OP, Does this sound like someone who has anger issues? Honestly? Does this sound like someone who even likes their DD?

And fwiw, if I was your DD, I wouldn't tell you if I had any problems, or was scared of anyone or anything. It's highly unlikely your DD comes across many people she is more scared of than you tbh.

You need help OP, support that I don't think MN can give you, but you need help and you need it fast.

Your posts are full of contradictions and anger and resentment and frustration, which apparently all started because your 5 yr old DD can't behave like a 15 yr old and take full responsibility for her belongings in a way no other 5 year old I know can or does.

Are you going to speak to the school about this completely ineffective system they have wrt you paying for school dinners?
Are you going to speak to the school first thing in the morning about devising some strategies to help your DD to organise her belongings?

Or is it easier to blame a 5 yr old than it is to confront a school about their shit rules? hmm

CheeseStrawWars Thu 31-Jan-13 21:25:26

You could have a look at the "How To Talk So Kids Will Listen" book. Chapter 2 is 'Engaging Co-operation' and Chapter 3 is 'Alternatives to Punishment'. Book summary here to give you and idea of the approaches they suggest.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:25:32

Eliza - thanks, that's really interesting. I do find myself saying that a lot. "That was a lie wasn't it?" "That's not what really happened, is it?"

I often go along with her light hearted ones and she develops them into stories. She is extremely creative and loves telling stories. But they go on for ages. And it can get a bit tedious. So i don't think i can do this with every lie she tells.

I think i should definitely try to start ignoring the bad, and praising the good more. We tried reward charts etc but she got too obsessive over them. She loves cuddles though. That's what she associates most with praise "a bear cuddle". E.g. "I tidied my toys, can i get a bear cuddle?"

Lifeisontheup Thu 31-Jan-13 21:27:34

As a Mum with a son who has ASD I would say that you have to change your expectations of how much your DD understands. If she is seeing a SALT then she probably has some language processing issues which means she may look/sound as if she understands but doesn't really. Children with ASD can and do lie but they don't really understand that it's wrong even if they say they do.

How do you explain to her what she needs to do with the money, if you say' your dinner money is in your purse which is in your bag. When you get into school you must give it to your teacher' you will probably have lost your daughter before you get a quarter of the way through the sentence. You have to break it down into separate instruction which at aged 5 is very difficult.

I think you have to totally change the way you parent, it is so different to parenting a NT child who at five would probably have some understanding of following slightly more complicated instructions. The school also has to change the way they expect your DD to comply with the normal school routine simply because she can't follow the more complicated routine expected of the NT children.

Dancergirl Thu 31-Jan-13 21:28:58

I haven't read the whole thread but OMG I am shocked what I am reading on here.

It sounds like there is much more to this than lost kit and money.

OP, do you often get so angry with her over things? It made me v sad to read that you couldn't look at her and found her annoying sad

Please get some help, you don't want your little girl growing up remembering that mummy was always cross with her.

Catmint Thu 31-Jan-13 21:30:47

OP, others have suggested what I was going to suggest:

School should help children in their care take care of their things. You have done your bit by labelling. You can't do any more because you are not there. Just how exactly are they teaching children to take care of their things, given your DD has had so many losses? I think you could very reasonably raise this with them and ask them to support your DD. I'm willing to bet you're not the only parent who is coming off worse to this odd policy.

I was going to suggest a daily tick list as well - but i see you got there first.

Good luck , it does sound v frustrating.

littlemisssarcastic Thu 31-Jan-13 21:31:07

Maybe, just maybe she can't remember exactly what happened, and is trying to make conversation with you???

It's very common for DC of this age to fabricate tales to grasp the adults attention, it's their way of having a conversation with you.

You've said you find her stories go on and become tedious.

Lots of adults lie to gain attention, to get noticed...maybe your DD does this too.
From what you say, your DD appears to want to connect with you, through telling you little stories and cuddles, yet you find this tedious and berate her for lying?

How about realising that a 5 yr old cannot be trusted implicitly to relay information accurately and let her tell her stories. She might just want you to listen instead of telling her off.

dayshiftdoris Thu 31-Jan-13 21:32:25

One think most children on the spectrum dont have is a vivid imagination sad though many, many of them will report as adults it was like living in a dream world where they couldnt reach other people.

When Lowla says to her daughter 'How did you sleep honey?' her daughter is in a panic to process and answer that communication - not because she is scared of her mother but because her brain is not wired like other people and so to deflect the anxiety of trying to find the 'right' answer (because there often has be a 'right' answer) she lies...

What I would do is try to reduce that sort of interaction... its a very, very unnatural way to parent but it does bring down the conflict points.

As for school / losing things... draw some boundaries with school so:
1) you will be handing any monies to the office - non negoitable
2) You will label every item that enters the school and provide a visual checklist but you would be very grateful if school could support her using this initially.
3) That the opportunities for DD to use this behaviour must be reduced as it is becoming an issue and as such a communication book is needed.

With the checklist... laminate it, hole punch and then get a normal keyring and attach it to the bag through the hole in the checklist... you can use a springy plastic coil keyring but they can take them off.

Lowla - PM me if you want... I really hope you are in my area as I have just helped to set up a support group for parents who have ASD kids in mainstream x

elizaregina Thu 31-Jan-13 21:32:44

Its worth a try Lowla. This friend often gives an awful lot of unwanted advice - he doesnt have children and we politly sit and listen bored rigid and very frustrated but to me its worth it becasue he does have a good birds eye view of looking at things sometimes and THAT advice did help me.

I remeber my siblings - much older ALWAYS telling me I was the end I used to act up to piss them off and say things etc...never shook it off.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 21:36:03

I think your daughter sounds great!

You are taking the lying as a personal thing i think. Its just how she copes in her world. It might be frustrating but she's not doing it to get at you.

I have often expected too much from my children for their age and have got angry about this before. Once i calm down and i remind myself that they are only so old i am fine, but you got angry all over again. This has really pushed some buttons for you and perhaps you should try to work out why exactly. What's your inner voice saying? (sorry i know that sounds wanky)

For me it would often be "why don't you listen to me" and i worked out at anger management classes that i had issues with not being listen to (because of childhood stuff). Once i realised what was behind it, it lost its power. I don't get so angry about that sort of thing now.

Also i knew very little about children so that was where my unreasonable expectations came from. I would be tense and stressed really easily when things weren't how i thought they should be, but it was me that needed to change my expectations, not my children change their behaviour. Because as children they have different priorities and live in the moment. So if i ask them to put their shoes on and instead they wander off and start colouring, they aren't trying to annoy me and deliberately ignore me, they just have different priorities which seem incredibly important to them. So much so that they can't resist.

It sounds like the constant fantasy stuff is either part of the asd or she just has an amazing imagination. Either way you're going to need to accept this about her because its not likely to suddenly stop. She might grow out of it, who knows, but for now this is what she does, don't take it personally.

I really wouldn't throw away her dvds or punish her for things which she can't help.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:36:35

For goodness sake. Thanks for the concern, but rest assured my dd is perfectly all right. She's loved, she's healthy and we adore each other to bits. The only time she's scared of me is when i tell ghost stories!

I'm quite surprised i'm the only one who appears to have felt angered and annoyed by my own child before. I have friends who quite often rant about their children and DH when we get together. Doesn't mean they hate them. It means they are human. It means that everything isn't always roses and rainbows every single day.

Me and DD are glued to the hip. the only time we're apart is when she's asleep or at school, as i work during school hours. So of course she'll occassionally annoy me/i'll want five minutes to myself. And vice versa. Whenever i annoy her, such as singing a song too loudly, or waking her up to come and see the snow, she'll tell me to go away and stop annoying her.

DD already has a little box (as do all the children) to keep things in such as gym shoes. I really like the idea of a picture checklist though. And i'll take on board the fact i need to break down instructions. This is what her SALT says too. Sometimes it's easy to forget and i'll just say "go wash put your boots away then wash your hands then come down for dinner".

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:36:38

Hi Lowla

I think you are blowing it out of proportion but I understand when money is tight you can't afford to lose things.Ds is 4 and he sounds similiar to your dd, and most of the kids in his class tbh. And he doesn't even have asd. We lost his school books earlier and I was running round like a headless chicken say 'where have we put them', I couldn't understand how they'd got lost in a tidy house. He'd slotted them in between the big and small table nest but he couldn't remember!

I don't think that your dd is lying I really don't, children this age often can't even remember what they had for lunch so will make it up, ds often walks past people who look like his grandparents and shouts 'is that my nanny?'. Perhaos your dd thought that she saw her nanny? Also children don't think logically like we do, sometimes they tell lies because they think they'll get into trouble if they don't answer.

Ok trainers, I get ds school pumps from Clarkes, they are about £9 and they do half sizes and I then get my mum to sew labels inside, can you do this?

Regarding the dinner money, ds school ask for the children to bring it in too, no way am I giving my 4 year old £10 a week so you know what? We all ignore it and pay in the office or hand it to the class teacher.

Perhaps speak to her teacher and explain that she's not coping with the level of responsibility being placed on her, they should understand this and be supportive and work with her on givng her tasks to build on this. And you can do the same at home.

Please don't be so hard on her she sounds typical of lots of 5 year olds.

Strangemagic Thu 31-Jan-13 21:37:13

Throwing her dvd's away is not going to be an effective punishment,my son has asd and punishments have to be explained and given immeadiatley ,
once you have done that you need to let it go,you can't keep using it again and again.Visual reminders work so much better because after a while your words don't mean anything,it's just noise and she will comply with what ever you say just to make it stop.
I think you are angry because the reality has just hit you that your child is autistic and you are scared and don't know what to do for the best.
Trust me ,I blundered around my son,not knowing what to do for the best but it gets easier and don't be afraid to ask for help.
Don't worry about what your daughter says to her teacher, believe me she has heard it all before.
It is amazing how quickly parents of autistic kids grow thick skins ,trust me I spent 3 years crying over my son,but regardless of his asd he is mine and that is all he needs to be.

dayshiftdoris Thu 31-Jan-13 21:37:26

Not explained myself well there... the vivid imagination well they can make up stories and create fantasy worlds - I thought my son had a brilliant imagination until an ed psych pointed out he was recreating the SAME story repetitively and when he was asked to move outside of it he would start getting anxious, the speech would become stuttered and he would ultimately get angry... he would even throw random sentences in to get her off his back...

When kids are high functioning it can be so so subtle.

CheeseStrawWars Thu 31-Jan-13 21:38:36

Can you give her "bear cuddles" for no reason? I think it is a bit sad if she associates cuddles with praise - to my mind that's setting up an expectation that to get affection you must act in a way to be worthy of it: you must please the 'giver of affection' or they will take their love/approval away if you upset them - which isn't a great relationship dynamic to take into later life, or great for self-esteem.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:40:44

LIttle miss - who on earth has time to listen to a hundred ten minute stories every day? When i'm trying to rush her out to school and she says "I don't have school today," would you (in my shoes) stand there, go along with the story, making her late for school? Really?

Of course her stories get tedious! Do you expect me to lie and say i find everything my 5yo says to be intriguing?

And of course i communicate with her. She tells stories because she loves telling stories. She lies because she wants to. It's not some sort of desperate attention-seeking thing. I give her attention constantly. We're glued to the hip normally.

How rude.

SpikeHairandFab Thu 31-Jan-13 21:41:05

sorry I didn't have time to read all thread,but YABVU,she's only 5,still small child, sort yourself out.

Rosa Thu 31-Jan-13 21:41:44

Well I read this from a mum who is very frustrated and yes cross that her dd has lost all these things and she needed to let off steam..not a mum who has anger management issues or hates her dd..Looks like to me she is doing all she bloody can. I hope you and your dd get the support and help needed from the school and also maybe next time maybe write a note to give to the teacher saying she has all ner gym kit or money for lunch ..or safety pin the note on her jumper....maybe other asd mums can come up with some helpful advice.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:42:30

Dayshift - my dd does have a vivid imagination. It's a common misconception that kids on the spectrum don't. She is extremely creative. Always drawing pictures, and telling me stories about them.

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:42:40

I think that you should stpo saying that your dd lies because I'm telling you now that a 5 year old does not have the same concept of a lie the way an adult does.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:46:33

X posts dayshift, sorry.

My dd does this too. Always repeating the same type of story (always revolves around butterflies and witches), and she always talks about old events (such as her nursery days).

Talking about the past is perhaps the only time she tells the truth. It's talking about current events that bring out the lies.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:47:30

Cheese - i cuddle her all the time! 'Bear cuddles' are a tight squeeze then a spin around the room. I think i'd break a limb if i had to do that all the time.

KitchenandJumble Thu 31-Jan-13 21:47:59

Of course everyone gets annoyed at their children occasionally. But what people seem to be picking up on this thread is the intensity of your responses. Nearly everyone has said that your expectations are too high, that your child is behaving in an age appropriate way, that her behaviour is due to her age and/or her ASD. But it seems as though you still think of your 5-year-old as "a compulsive liar" or as uncaring and unfeeling. Even her heart-breakingly sweet gestures of drawing you a picture and writing an apology note you choose to interpret as manipulative.

Someone on this thread asked whether you remember what you were like at five. You responded as though this was a ludicrous question, but I think it's a very good one. I vividly remember being five years old. I remember the world as a big and confusing (though exciting and interesting) place, full of incomprehensible rules. I remember being terrified of getting in trouble. I once ran away from school, all the way home, because the teacher was going to "have a word" with me about some misdemeanour.

Also I used to smile when my mother told me off (as you said your DD does). It wasn't because I thought the situation was funny. On the contrary, it was a nervous response to an uncomfortable situation. And my mother was never in the least bit abusive. Nor are you, OP, by your account you sound like a very loving mother. But I do think you sound as though you're under considerable strain, and for whatever reason your DD is receiving the brunt of your emotions. Give her a break, enjoy her for who she is, and keep short accounts (i.e., start over tomorrow with a clean slate). That's my unsolicited advice for the day. smile

BoulevardOfBrokenSleep Thu 31-Jan-13 21:48:25

Oh dear lord, my DD is 5 and NT, and I'd say at least 50% of the time I spend with her, I'm somewhere between vague irritation and teeth-clenching suppressed boiling fury. <shrug>

Think the school should be helping you more about stuff like dinner money, they sound quite good generally, so maybe if you put it to them that The System could be bent for DD, they might take it on board?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:49:06

Not sure what else to call something that isn't the truth, Sparklyjumper?

Other than a lie.

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:49:22

Also I got ds these they are name tapes with a little picture of your choice on in a colour of your choice, they can be sewn onto garments so your dd will be more likely to remember her own things. And people will be more likely to hand things back.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:51:01

Thank you, Rosa! That's exactly it. I needed to vent.

But somehow i've found myself having to convince a load of people i'm not a bully, that my dd is loved, and had to read my parenting skills being attacked and picked to pieces.

I think that's the reason my outburst was so intense actually. Because i've not vented before. That'll be me quite calm now for another five years i reckon.

drownangels Thu 31-Jan-13 21:52:26

cumfy. You are just trying to antagonise and are being annoying.
The op is dealing with a different situation than the op's parents would have done.

All those saying that autistic children don't tell lies..........ha ha ha ha! Get real!

yggdrasil Thu 31-Jan-13 21:52:35

Ok there are fifteen pages of replies and I haven't read all of them so I apologise if this has been covered. I don't think you are being unreasonable to be angry,no. To express this anger, yes, but to feel it, no. I actually think you did a highly responsible thing by coming on here and venting, rather than expressing it to your daughter. To my mind, that's what this place is (partly) here for, and its an important thing. Kids can be enormously frustrating.

What I do think is that its really daft to have a policy that requires little kids to handle largish amounts of money. I also think its especially daft when a child has additional needs which might make it hard for them to keep track of the money. I think you are being entirely reasonable to be angry, but I think the problem here is the school, not your daughter.

I honestly cannot imagine any of mine (all NT) having been able to manage this at 5. Honestly, I have a 5 year old, NT but entirely away with the fairies. I would not ever trust her with any amount of money, she'd use it to feed squirrels or something.

littlemisssarcastic Thu 31-Jan-13 21:52:42

I am rude??? Take a good long look at the way you have treated your DD today.

I think you will find that you have been incredibly rude to your DD. Complete strangers on the internet are standing in your DD's corner, and you call them rude???

The mind boggles!!!

I will remind you of something poignant that I read someplace.

It said;

Anything your children want to tell you, no matter what. If you don't listen eagerly to the little stuff when they are little, they wont tell you the big stuff when they are big, because to them, all of it has always been big.

You can continue being defensive, but would you treat any other 5 yr old this way? Would you expect to be spoken to the way you have spoken to your DD today?

I think not.

I feel more sad for your DD that you aren't even listening to what people are saying, unless they are soothing your furrowed brow, and you're still completely in denial about how nasty you have been to your 5 yr old today.

You still haven't said whether you are going to raise this issue with the school, instead you have just continued defending your inexcusable actions.

We all get pissed off but your treatment borders on cruelty. Punishing her for misdeeds she doesn't even understand she has done? Taking away the dvds she loves and binning them over behaviour she isn't deliberately doing??

I hope your DD bins your most prized possessions when you next annoy her.

Horrible horrible horrible way to go on.

And yet you show zero remorse for the way you have conducted yourself.

I'm lost for words!!!

skullcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 21:52:53

its crap about spectrum people not having imagination.

both my friend and i are on the spectrum, she has AS, i'm HFA. we both write fanfic across about 5 different genres as well as other stories and poems, she is writing a horror fiction novel that is one its 3rd redraft before publication, she is also an artist.

All this needs is communication with the school, their policies and parent communication is ridiculous and you need to tell them what your DD needs and what you expect.

wasuup3000 Thu 31-Jan-13 21:53:00

Sounds like your daughter is getting distracted and has organisational difficulties and trouble remembering things as is common with ASD that does not make her liar.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:53:10

Thanks, Sparkly - that's the exact ones we have. (she picked pink).

Only managed to get the sticky ones for shoes though, but they fall off with sweat, in the wash etc.

yggdrasil Thu 31-Jan-13 21:54:13

(sorry, to add- I meant to say to express the anger to your daughter in an angry anger-management issue type way. Not to express it on here. On here is good. Go for it!)

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:54:19

But you called her a compulsive liar!

Let me explain, for example when I was at school I remember I made a little Santa with the teacher, I was first on the register so I made mine first, when the teachr asked me if I'd made one yet I said I hadn't, not because I was lying but because I was scared if I said I had made on already I'd be in trouble because the teacher would think I was rude. Don't ask me why, I was 4 or 5 at the time I had no logic.

Another time I remember us all having to go into a different class for some reason, we were due to go out to play and the teacher asked if we had our coats, I said I didn't have a coat, I did but I didn't have it in the other class with me. I got shouted at for lying. I wasn't lying I didn't understand what was being asked of me.

I explained about my ds thinking he's seen his nanny. I also remember telling everyone my uncle was chinese, he wasn't but he looked chinese through my childs eyes.

Try to see things through your dds eyes.

dayshiftdoris Thu 31-Jan-13 21:55:18

Yep Lowla thats why I re-wrote it...

It was only when the ed psych told me about the bit in the ADOS when he was asked to make up a story based on a book of just pictures I realised... it was 'The frog is on a rock.... ermmmmmmm..........'
'What do you think the frog is doing?
'Errrr sitting'
'Do you think he is waiting?'

Yet he had just told her a long involved story about a friend at nursery (he was 6!!) and one based on the plot of thunderbirds...

It was then I thought about it and compared to friends children - yeah it was different. Mine would pretend to make tea but if I said 'ooh I think this tea is so good the queen would want to come to tea!' He would say 'Why? Does she not have tea at home? Does she know where we live?'

That said the connections he makes - well at no point are they like anything I would ever dream of! They are truely unique, logical and have absolute clarity in thought... ASD might a brain working differently but I sometimes wonder if its not a brain working more efficently.

drownangels Thu 31-Jan-13 21:55:44

I've read op's post a couple of times and no, it doesn't sound like she has anger issues. She sounds like she is having a fucking bad day!

Op what does your DH make of this situation?

Lifeisontheup Thu 31-Jan-13 21:57:18

It is really difficult to remember to break things down, I found it really difficult and still get it wrong although DS at 16 is now old enough to let me know he is struggling to process what I'm saying.

The pictures are a really good idea especially until she can read reliably, then you can use simple, single sentences written out in large letters and the lines well spaced out. Well at least I find it helps with DS.

I used to get very frustrated, it is very hard but does get easier as you get used to the different way of doing things.

With regard to the lies like' I don't have school today' I would completely ignore that and carry on as if she hasn't said it.Only challenge the lying if you have to or she gets upset.

Good Luck

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 21:58:23

I do understand your frustration I really do. I ask ds what he's done at school and he just shrugs and say 'dunno', 'nothing'.

Like today I was searching for these school books but he just looked at me blankly, then he said they must be in the car! He'd slotted them between the nests of tables and I know he'd doen it when tidying his toys, but he couldn't remember.

wasuup3000 Thu 31-Jan-13 21:59:10

For the I don't have school today - buy a calander mark school days weekends and holidays on it so it is visible maybe with a red sticker for a school day yellow for a weekend and green for holiday?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 21:59:49

Take a good long look at the way you have treated your DD today.

I've told my dd off for lying. I told her i was upset because she'd lost her shoes. I asked her to play by herself for a while, while i tried to calm down (by venting on here). I said thank you, that's lovely, when she gave me the picture instead of jumping around like a loon like i normally would, because i felt very tired and fed up.

I haven't told my daughter i hated her. I haven't told her she was annoying me. I haven't smacked her about or threw her out the window.

You're making out like my dd has had a night from hell! She barely even noticed i was upset. She wanted her TV show on, i said no, not until she tells me the truth about her shoes. Instead of telling the truth, she drew a picture and letter, thinking that would get her TV show on.

We've done her homework, she's had a bubble bath, we've told stories, we've had dinner, and we did our night time song.

It's been a typical evening for her except she knows i was a bit upset.

justmyview Thu 31-Jan-13 22:00:08

I read loads of posts on MN, but not many that distress me. This thread is quite upsetting. It sounds as though your DD is trying to please you & do her best, but you are quick to think she's lying

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:00:42

Lowla that all sounds incredibly frustrating. I second those saying you really need RL support here and that your GP may be the place to find it.

I have mild ASD and so do my parents (Dad diagnosed, Mum not diagnosed). I was very much like your DD as a child, including making stuff up that was obviously not true. Now as an adult I can look at my parents and see my mum in particular doing it all the time - aged 67 she has never really developed a sense of solid external reality, which combined with her "I'm your mother/wife and I know what's right, and you don't have a clue because you're subnormal, don't you lie in front of me, you're embarrassing all of us" attitude, gives rise to some really embarrassing social situations where what she is saying is obviously ridiculous but no-one can really say anything because she's accusing me or my Dad of lying. I'm absolutely not saying that your DD is getting the behaviour from you - this is just saying I understand this from the inside and also from dealing with it in a close family member.

This may not be helpful with a 5yo, but it may be helpful when your DD is older. I lived in my own little world until my late 20s, in a mix of fairly spectacular reality and "borrowing" from others' lives. Nothing major borrowed - of the "I had jam sandwiches for lunch" (when it was actually cheese) variety. The main place where it was damaging was not really thinking straight about relating to other people - developing increasingly skewed pictures of my relationships with others because I cherry-picked what I wanted to see of my interactions. Obviously other people could also observe these interactions and see how skewed my perceptions were.

What helped me to see the "constructing an alternative reality" for what it was - mildly compulsive and pointless lying (to myself or to others) to make life more interesting - and grow beyond doing it, was having my DP of that time call it "exaggeration" rather than "lying" and have him point out that the rest of the world could tell it was untrue, but that they were completely confused as to my motives. He pointed out that he knew it was just minor embellishment, but that others saw it as confusing and worrying, because they didn't know how far the lies went. He emphasised the need to make my benign motives clear, and that the way to do that was to not exaggerate at all, ever - to step back and ask questions about/listen to others' lives, and not need to be the one who always has something to say about how the current topic of conversation relates to my own set of (mildly embellished) experiences. He also pointed out that it's much more satisfying working on being awesome and being able to talk about that when asked, than spending energy on contributing half-truths to conversation and then having to keep track of what I've said...

I think if it's called "exaggeration" or "embellishment" rather than "lying", it's easier to step back from and stop, because it's implied that exaggeration is from a position of truth. Giving your DD a strategy to work on - being clear about reporting truth because otherwise others will be confused and worried because they can see the embellishment but can't tell how far the exaggerations go - will perhaps be more successful than saying "don't lie, it's wrong". At the moment "it's wrong" has no real consequences for her, and later she will discover that a lot of the public lie and also they can't tell if she's lying so she may as well keep doing it; and even later she will discover that a lot of the public can tell she's lying but they say nothing or genuinely don't care.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 22:01:55

She lies because she wants to.

Really? Or does she lie because to her that's the truth or because she doesn't know what else to say or because she's 5 or because she's got asd? By telling yourself that she wants to lie to you your only going to make yourself more angry. I can imagine its very frustrating but she's not doing it to piss you off. You are taking it personally and that's why you are getting angry in my opinion.

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 22:02:23

Lowla she really might not remember what happened to her shoes, or she might not be telling you because she thinks she'll be in trouble.

justmyview Thu 31-Jan-13 22:03:41




Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:04:25

Yes, Sparkly, i realise 'compulsive liar' was very OTT. just my way of wording things.

The examples you gave are 'every now and then lies'. DD lies with every single thing she says. I can't ask a question without the answer containing something that's not the truth.

It's not just 2-3 times a day, it's several hundred times a day. And this is why i find it frustrating. I wish i could talk to her normally, instead of trying to figure out which part of her sentence is the truth.

And this is also why i don't have time/patience to expand every 'non-truth' into a story, as suggested in a post earlier. I don't have time to listen to over a hundred ten-minute long stories each day. And yes, i find it tedious having to listen to the same story for the seventh time in a day. Of course i do.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 22:04:32


Great post. Eloquent.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:05:08

Drownagels - no DP. Just me and dd. She's never had contact with her dad.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 22:09:08


Your phrase joined at the hip really struck me. Lovely but oppressive too. i know I'd find it lovely, and hard to be with mine with no one to bounce ideas off when it gets hard.

I lost my rag ridiculously one of mine yesterday. He is much older. It is almost always me whonhas the skewed perception that causes the soverrly strong emotional reaction.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 22:09:46

Overly strong

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:11:13

Sorry, Xposting with a lot of people.

Thanks, Anna, that's really interesting.

Thank you very much everyone for your replies. I realise i was more angry about the lying/non truths earlier, rather than the fact she's losing things.

I'm also worried that dd's 'non truths' are becoming more and more real to her, and i feel that her teacher believing her over me earlier confirmed this.

I hope it is just a phase.

DD has a little checklist made up. Just not sure how to fix it to her bag. Her purse was attached by keyring to a zip, and still somehow got lost, so don't fancy trying that method again.

Dancergirl Thu 31-Jan-13 22:12:00

littlemisssarcastic spot on post and, sadly, I agree with every word you say.

The OP's dd sounds lovely.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 22:13:23

Lowla - STOP calling your daughter a liar.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:13:45

Jamie, we're not actually joined at the hip. But we never get time away from each other except school, or the occassional visit to her Gran's house.

We do everything together, pretty much, is what i mean.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 22:14:29

littlemisssarcastic - you have said everything I wanted to say but so more eloquently than I did.

Bobyan Thu 31-Jan-13 22:15:45

You keep saying that you are just venting, however being able to vent lists of things that your not happy with her about is very alarming.

She is 5, she has SN, she isn't going to change, because she can't.

The only thing that can change is your attitude to her. You may think that she is oblivious to how upset you are with her, but your resentment of her behaviour will be sensed by her and processed by her in her own way.

You need support, before you cause your dd damage.

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:15:58

Lowla - I have absolutely no idea if it's just a phase in your DD, but having known lots of people with HF ASD, and indeed lots of NT people who do it too, it is pretty common. It might be something worth discussing with your DD's teacher and support people, also discussing it - including the scale of the problem - with your GP, who might be able to refer you & DD to some kind of psych support. A psychologist would be familiar with the spectrum from "embellished half-truths in conversation" through to "compulsive liar", and would also have strategies for working on it. Good luck.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:16:21

Countrykitten - what shall i call it instead? Anna has said 'exaggerrations' 'embellishments' rather than lies. Should i call dd an exaggerator/embellishor instead when i'm writing about her non truths?

She told me her teacher bit her the other day. Not a lie?

bouncysmiley Thu 31-Jan-13 22:16:41

As soon as I read this I thought 'bullying' - have you looked into this?

Shellywelly1973 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:18:13

Fantastic & insightful post Anna.

Op- i strongly suggest, (as a parent of a child with ASD), you need to educate yourself as much as possible on ASD especially theory of mind.

I found your post & some of your responses quite disturbing.

KatyTheCleaningLady Thu 31-Jan-13 22:18:35

Lowla, "to lie" implies malice or cunning calculation. It sounds more like your daughter is perhaps a bit of a fantasist.

Turniphead1 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:19:14

How deeply deeply sad.

My 9 year old is a demon for losing stuff at school. She has no learning difficulties. I still wouldn't treat her the way you've treated this little girl, as cross as I may feel.

She is a baby ffs!

Even sadder is your complete refusal to take on board the majority view here. Why bother posting? Well I presume you wanted us all to say how devious and dishonest this little girl was.

yggdrasil Thu 31-Jan-13 22:19:32

I'm really stunned by some of these replies

Are we not meant to be angry with our kids, ever?

I think Lowra has been very responsible indeed. She has, for whatever reason, felt incredibly angry with her daughter. Ok she may have nagged her a bit but basically it seems that she controlled herself, didn't show her daughter how pissed off she was more than she could, and came on here and let off steam.

I'm really not sure why she's getting this flak. Have people misread the OP, I wonder?

Kiriwawa Thu 31-Jan-13 22:20:37

Lowla - you didn't even acknowledge my earlier post trying to give you practical suggestions of how you could better manage things, you're too busy defending yourself.

And however much you say you're joined at the hip and how much you love one another, it sounds a bit hollow. Your anger sounds much more real and the more you post, the more it sounds like you're punishing your daughter for her learning difficulty. Do you think if you shout at her and take away the things she loves she'll suddenly be 'normal'? If not, why are you doing it?

She doesn't understand it as 'lying'. She doesn't understand that she's being careless. She knows she's upset you and is trying to appease you by drawing you pictures and that isn't good enough for you.

You both need outside support

CocktailQueen Thu 31-Jan-13 22:21:00

I can't believe she has to hand in a week's worth of dinner money herself to teacher at the age of 5. She has ASD!!! Hum. Maybe you shoudl give money and other stuff to teacher in future???

But uniform, gym kit etc - well, if they are labelled with your dd's name, then kick up merry hell. Because someone has them!! Is there a lost property box you can look in??

Dancergirl Thu 31-Jan-13 22:21:12

OP, if this was just a run-of-the-mill vent about something your dd had done, it would have been long-forgotten by now. What worries me is the extent of your anger and how that escalated even after she had drawn you a picture.

For goodness sake, let it go already! She is 5 years old, too young to have responsiblities over money or whatever.

And doing everything together with her isn't healthy. Does she have friends round to play?

NumericalMum Thu 31-Jan-13 22:24:28

My nearly 5 year old would lose £10. SO I wouldn't give it to her. She also tells the teacher I forgot her socks so she can wear the exciting hideous spare ones. Your DD is 5. I can't imagine expecting so much of her.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:24:31

Yes, bouncy. I'm a bully. And i have anger issues. And i'm autistic too.

All confirmed by strangers on the internet. very strange, i would have thought someone who actually knew me would have told me this by now.

When i told dd off earlier, i wasn't screaming in her face. I was just telling her i was upset, and she needs to find her shoes tomorrow. I was firm but calm.

When we got home, i asked her to play in her room while i went into mine and had a sob and a very honest rant on here.

Where/when have i bullied my daughter?

I've admitted i was being unreasonable earlier for (internally) putting all the blame onto her. I'm not denying i was OTT at all. But i was stressed and angry. Shoot me. I'm sure a lot of you vent about your kids time to time.

And i don't think i've listed my dd's faults anywhere? I've said i get annoyed by her clumsiness and half truths. Hardly a list.

Thanks, Anna. I'm going to write in her SALT diary that i'd like a referral to discuss her 'half truths' with someone. I think the school has an educational pyschologist, but i don't think i've met them.

DameMargotFountain Thu 31-Jan-13 22:24:50

grin at you thinking i was diagnosing you over the 'net

really, OP, i was drawing some parallels between your behaviour and what you were saying about your DD, i mentioned nothing about any conditions - but you are very defensive and have chosen to pick up and pick out things to argue against

i was trying to empathise with you earlier, my own DD has ASD and many of the issues you highlight with your DD, i have with my own

it's time to chill - come on over to the SN section and probably leave AIBU if you're feeling fragile?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:26:46

I'm really not sure why she's getting this flak. Have people misread the OP, I wonder?

I hope that's what it is. Perhaps many people think i vocalised my OP to my dd?

Otherwise feeling angered/annoyed by our children is a maternal crime.

neverputasockinatoaster Thu 31-Jan-13 22:27:15

My DS is 8. Very often he will 'grin' when being told off. He has, at times, laughed out loud. It was all due to nerves, not knowing what to expect.

My DS has a brilliant feel for stories. He sometimes blurs the edges between reality and fantasy.

Lowla - I am a teacher and I am telling you categorically that your DD's school is NOT doing enough to support your DD. One of her issues is organisation thus she needs support with organisation. It matters not one jot how 'lovely' the school are and how 'lovely' her teacher is. If her organisational needs are such that she is losing all those things then she needs support to get better at organising. Really she does!

Is this, by any chance a fee paying school? No TAs? That is very unusual in a school. We have several TAs and if we saw a child struggle to be organised we'd be on it like shot. One child I taught had a strip of velcro by the door. We began by getting him to remember to take his jumper home so he had a picture of his jumper on the strip and when he had his jumper in his hand we would remove the picture and he'd get a reward. Over time we added more items once the jumper had become engrained. She needs help with this. Please get her some?

nannyof3 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:28:01

Shes 5 for gods sake!!!!

Get a grip woman !!!!

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 22:29:37


Bouncy meantbthat she thought your Dd might be being bullied at school, having money taken.

ScramblyEgg Thu 31-Jan-13 22:30:49

Lowla, are you absolutely certain that your DD's not having stuff taken from her by another child? The money especially, it sounds as though it would be difficult for the purse to get lost as it was attached to her bag.

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 22:32:03

Lowla, basically I was trying to say was katythecleaninglady was saying, to lie is to be malicious, your dd isn't being malicious. Perhaps she has a great imagination, perhaps it's because of her asd, perhaps she doesn't understand, at worst she's doing it for attention. But if you feels it's excessive then you should seek some advice.

I hate to think anyones having a hard time and you've obviously come here for support, but the tone of your posts, a lot of your wording, well you do sound quite scary. Perhaps you are not like that in rl but people can only go by what you type.

I think a good starting point would be to arrange to meet with your dds class teacher and discuss you concerns and seek some extra support with dd keeping track of her things.

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:32:08

I think the OP probably really needs more RL support than she is getting.

The losing stuff sounds normal for any kid, and it sounds like the school expects too much of little kids if 5yos are having to look after dinner money, ties, blazers, PE kit etc.

Calling untruths lies, versus embellishments or exaggerations, implies different levels of intent to deceive. It's worth remembering that long-term low-level minor exaggeration can lead to major skews in perception, and can be as damaging as one large lie. But the long-term low-level stuff is much harder to deal with.

I think there is not evidence of any real intent to lie in the case here - a 5yo is unlikely to be malicious, and with ASD in the picture a 5yo is unlikely to have the theory of mind to see it as lies as an intentional cover story.

Given that the OP says her DD tells untruths nearly all the time, I think it's more like what I was describing - a lack of feeling of solid external reality, where describing anything (true or not) has as little consequence as describing (true) reality. What the DD needs is strategies for seeing the worth in living in/ reporting on external reality and its consequences, rather than living in a little separate bubble. My suggestion of changing how it's described, and explaining the consequence of the new description, was just intended as a strategy.

zzzzz Thu 31-Jan-13 22:32:13

You forgive yourself everything and her nothing.

This is not good enough, I suggest you seek help. Her behaviour is perfectly normal 5year old behaviour, yours is not. I can see you are stressed and disappointed with the child you have raised, why is harder for me to understand. Your behaviour is not what I recognise as a normal reaction and so I would urge you to find some help, and perhaps someone to talk through your rationalisation of this situation.


Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:33:05


So in one post my daughter is being starved of attention. I don't communicate with her enough.

In another, we're too close? it's not healthy to do everything together?

DD doesn't want people round to play. She apparently only likes her 'best friend'. But he goes to ASC every day.

My dd isn't housebound. We visit friends, family, go to soft play, she goes to Rainbows and ASC each once a week too.

I'm really insulted so many people are tearing my parenting to shreds.

I'm an LP. Of course we're together a lot. Who else will have her?

And enough about the picture already. I said thank you. I told her it was lovely. She got huffy when i refused to let her watch TV. Instead she went and played with a toy.

Internally, i wasn't wanting her to come in with the picture though. I was still angry, and didn't think i'd be able to look convincingly pleased with it, thus potentially hurting her feelings.

Kiri - i've reads your post. Thanks. I can't reply to each one individually.

I've read all posts and i've taken a lot of the suggestions on board.

Equally, i've dismissed several of the silly/OTT ones.

Bobyan Thu 31-Jan-13 22:34:35

She just doesn't give a shit
I honestly feel like punching a wall
I'm at the end of my tether with her
Argh! I can't stop crying! I'm actually shaking with anger
I feel like screaming!
DD is clumsy and a compulsive liar
I know this is going to keep happening and happening

FOR FUCK SAKE GET SOME HELP, I have never felt like this about my kids the very fact you feel like this and think about your DD like this is horrible.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 22:35:06

Your daughter sounds like she is creative and yes that she does embellish real life - but you choose to label her as a compulsive liar.

Also if you are shouting at her in the supermarket enough to upset other people there then I do not think that you can have been particularly calm - your story changes.

I sincerely hope that you can get over whatever your negative feelings are towards your daughter and also get over your own massive defensiveness enough to get some professional help so that you can start to support her rather than be angry with her.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 22:36:33

I don't think you could have been as calm as you think you were op if people were giving you evils in the supermarket.

Its not that you call it lying, its that you are so bloody angry about it! Like her lies or exaggerations or whatever you want to call them are deliberate naughtiness on her part.

Dancergirl Thu 31-Jan-13 22:36:54

OP, you said in your title you were 'bloody furious' and 'on the verge of tears'. That is not a normal response to what's happened.

WHY post on here if you aren't listening to anyone?

People would be much more sympathetic if you said well maybe I didn't handle that right, maybe I need to look at how I deal with issues etc. But instead you come across as incredibly defensive.

I would guess that perhaps you are now regretting your post and trying to underplay what happened. But it sounds like this isn't a one-off incident. It sounds like you have high expectations of your dd and when these aren't met, there's an almighty row or anger/disappointment on your part.

camgirl Thu 31-Jan-13 22:37:15

I think the problem is that often when people post about feeling angry at their children they post because they are absolutely full of remorse and guilt at their reaction to a child, and are looking for advice and support on how better to respond to very normal (yet still irritating) behaviour from a child.

'Venting' suggests that on this and other occasions your DD has borne the brunt of some very raw feelings from you. I think that makes for very painful and distressing reading.

I hope you can manage to access some approriate help and support soon.

thebody Thu 31-Jan-13 22:37:15

Have 4 kids and a TA in reception.

Fact.. All of mine lied/ imagined/

All of mine lost jumpers, P.E kits etc

All of mine didn't understand the value of money or money stresses.

All of mine wanted to please me.

As a reception class TA I get just the same NORMAL behaviour from the kids

You are expecting too much but by all means vent on here.

But don't blame your baby, she's 5....

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:37:32

Apologies bouncy.

I've seen so many posts before yours though accusing me of bullying that i jumped the gun a little.

Sorry, again!

Yep, i'm certain it's not other kids taking her stuff. DD just misplaces it.

I'm going to write in her SALT diary and ask to bring a meeting forward. The last learning plan i saw was back in September.

No, just an ordinary school. No fees. There aren't many TAs around here. The education budget has taken a hard hit though by our local council, so i guess it's to do with that.

I doubt they'll get one in just to help dd keep her eyes on her gym kit.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 22:37:52

Lowla, are you from the US?

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 22:39:23

Also - how can you be sure that she is not being bullied? She would not tell you (is my guess) so how can you be so sure?

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:41:08

You forgive yourself everything and her nothing. This is not good enough, I suggest you seek help. Her behaviour is perfectly normal 5year old behaviour, yours is not. I can see you are stressed and disappointed with the child you have raised, why is harder for me to understand. Your behaviour is not what I recognise as a normal reaction and so I would urge you to find some help, and perhaps someone to talk through your rationalisation of this situation.

Thanks. Yes, dd is a major disappointment to me. Her behaviour - telling untruths with every breath she draws - is totally normal.

Yep, i'll get some help so i never feel angry with dd again. I realise now that a true mother always always always should be happy with her children. It is a maternal crime to be annoyed/angered by our little darlings.

StillSlightlyCrumpled Thu 31-Jan-13 22:41:45

Lowla, I would phone the school in the morning & make an appointment t with the teacher & SENCO.
Her constant lying must be of a concern to them too, & you could probably do with an Educational Psychologist' input.
A clear home / school diary should also help with a note written if DD hasn't had something in school. You will soon build up a relationship where they do believe you when you say you've sent it in etc.

The SN section of this site is amazing & you will get some good advice.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 22:44:03

Yes - you def need help. Urgently.

I can't post on here any more as I am too upset by your horrible attitude to your little girl.

I hope for her sake that you do get help and soon.

Bobyan Thu 31-Jan-13 22:44:40

Wanting to punch walls while crying and shaking with anger is not normal.


Shakirasma Thu 31-Jan-13 22:44:58

Earlier you assured me that you had done proper research into your DDs disability, yet you clearly have no idea what you are dealing with or you would know that removing and destroying her possession is cruel and pointless. She will learn nothing positive from that

Your DDs behaviours are a product of her ASD and happen for well understood and documented reasons. Any proper research into theory of mind and executive function would teach you how her mind is struggling.

Get to know your child's disability, understand it, that is surely to key to understanding her, helping her, and supporting her.

Also I found having proper knowledge really helped me become much more patient. I suggest getting in touch with the NAS to see what parent training courses are available.

KnitFastDieWarm Thu 31-Jan-13 22:45:43

OP, you sound very disappointed in your daughter for things that aren't her fault. All five year olds make things up, that's just how their brains work - perhaps even more so with non-NT five year olds. You sound like you expect her to behave in way that would be more appropriate for, say, a 12 year old. When you think about it, it's a bit like expecting your 1 year old to do the washing up.
I completely understand your frustration, but some of the things you have said in relation to your daughter are, to be honest, quite cold and chilling.
Please speak to the school, seek rl support, punch a cushion, join the sen forum whatever you need to so that you can enjoy your dd just as she is, with less stress to yourself.

CheerfulYank Thu 31-Jan-13 22:46:26

She isn't from the US or at least doesn't live there now. We don't have councils for a start.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:49:10

FOR FUCK SAKE GET SOME HELP, I have never felt like this about my kids the very fact you feel like this and think about your DD like this is horrible.

See? You've just yelled. Simple to do over the t'internet? Did you do that in real life though? When i was 'yelling' in my OP, i was physically silent.

You've never felt like punching a wall? I never had until today either. Doubt i'll feel it again for a good while too. Feels as if i've finally released years of frustration.

Yes, i was angry that dd had lost her things again and didn't give a shit. This had added on to my already crappy day.

And? I need help for having a bad day? If everyone went to their GP for have a rare crappy day, the doctors wouldn't have time to see genuine patients.

Your daughter sounds like she is creative and yes that she does embellish real life - but you choose to label her as a compulsive liar.

Had no idea what embellish meant up until Anna told me. I just call all non truths lies. Didn't realise there was another way of describing it. In future posts though i shall call them 'embellishments' though if that's nicer. Okay, dd embellished the other day. She said her teacher bit her! What an embellishment.

I don't think you could have been as calm as you think you were op if people were giving you evils in the supermarket

Yes, i was calm. Which is why i felt like ripping their heads off. They were obviously as precious as the majority of you. Can't tell a child you're upset. Can't insist a child looks for their shoes tomorrow. Can't tell a child to stop running away from you in case they get lost.

grumpyoldbookworm Thu 31-Jan-13 22:49:20

DS's school are introducing a smart tag system to try to reduce the lost property problem using labels from which might be worth suggesting.
A 5 year old is too young to manage cash for more than a few minutes at a time IMO.
Do you think that you (op) may have ASD as well? It might be worth discussing with your GP... She is very young and your reaction does seem rather intense.

OP, I understand the bit about your feelings when she gave you the picture and then expected to have the TV on. My DS, who has ASD, does this kind of thing all of the time. He will bring me a cup of tea and then say that of course he can now go out, or he will do something else nice then clearly expect some kind of payoff. It seems to us NTs to be very cold and calculating indeed. But that is just the way some people with ASD think. The rest of us probably do too, but we just don't make it quite so obvious!

He is 22 BTW, so we are used to his way of thinking now and actually find it quite amusing. As for the lying, could it be what I call an Autistic obsession? DS has done some pretty weird things over the years, obsessive use of words, repetition, interests and so on. Eventually he moves on to something else and then that starts to drive us mad.

zzzzz Thu 31-Jan-13 22:50:03

It's a "maternal crime" to take out adult frustrations on a 5 year old disabled child because she is behaving in a totally understandable way.

Finding some outside perspective will not stop you ever feeling angry with your dd again but it might help you see that your reaction is out of proportion and unfair.

You sound very sad and under a huge strain, but I'm not aware of anything in your description of events that would normally cause this level of distress. Perhaps it would help if you explained why you find this all so offensive and difficult?

CheerfulYank Thu 31-Jan-13 22:50:10

I agree that the OP needs support and help.

But tbf I too have WANTED to punch walls. I've THOUGHT that my child was "bloody annoying" among other things. But I would never say that to him or actually punch anything. There's a difference.

Blessyou Thu 31-Jan-13 22:50:46

Sorry if it's been said.

Please talk to her SALT about this. It's a communication issue. They can advise stategies for her.

apostropheuse Thu 31-Jan-13 22:51:58


At five years old she is little more than an infant. I cannot believe that any mother would speak of her child in such terms.

So cold and angry towards a little girl and still doesn't seem to realise or accept that it's not a normal reaction.

There's no point in repeating what others have said before me, much more eloquently than I could.

I'm chilled by this thread.

Flabbergasted actually.

skullcandy Thu 31-Jan-13 22:52:50

there's some people on here who need to get a grip, and i dont mean the OP.

Of course we all get mad with our kids, we get annoyed, occasionally we get RAGEY about it.. how many moms here when faced with constant crying baby are told to put them down and walk away?

The OP did that by asking her dd to go play away from her and give her some space and then came on here to rant.

She's not a bad parent, she's not a bully or abusive, no-one needs to feel sorry for her dd.

Getting angry with your kids happens, its normal and anyone who says it isnt is lying or some kind of super-parent who needs to fuck off and write a parenting book to impart your miraculous wisdom to the rest of us.

OP.. good luck in tackling this with the school, i think its important you make it clear what your DD needs that they're not providing, she clearly needs some more measures in place to support her absent mindedness, and someone to look into the fantasising.

I do have a lot of sympathy, OP. more than once in the years with our DS I have found myself at the end of my tether and am ashamed of some of the things I have done. The stress can be unbearable. Once I found myself sitting on the stairs banging my head against a wall sad

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 22:54:08

OP, you said in your title you were 'bloody furious' and 'on the verge of tears'. That is not a normal response to what's happened. WHY post on here if you aren't listening to anyone?

What exactly is normal? If everyone was normal, we'd be flippin' robots. I haven't cried in over two years (until today). Is that normal? Emotions are unique to their owner.

The fact i was so furious and on the verge of tears was because i'd had a shit day at work, and then discovered dd had yet again lost stuff, 'embellished' to the teacher, and the teacher seemed to think i was the one who misplaced the items.

I was stressed by many things today. Final straw on the camel's back and all that.

And i've listened to everyone! (except the strange people who are distressed by my thread...). I've taken lots of advice on board. I've admitted several times i was being unreasonable too.

Not my fault if people won't/can't read that.

StuntGirl Thu 31-Jan-13 22:54:14

Oh OP. you sound very defensive and dismissive of what people are saying. I doubt you can have been that calm if people in the supermarket were looking. I don't mean you were a raging loony, but you were clearly not 'calm'.

The language you've used is very angry, and very defensive. It sounds to me like you have got virtually no support at all in RL. You seem SO concerned about other peoples perceptions and worried about judgement, and that is turning to anger.

Are there any groups or anything nearby where you could get some support?

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 22:54:58

OP - just wanted to say - myself and my parents with ASD have all driven me shake and cry with anger and to feel like punching walls at times. I understand the frustration. It must be even worse for you because you're the only adult in this situation, you've got all the responsibility on your shoulders.

You sound like you need help - you sound stressed and worried, and you're expressing that on here in a way that suggests that if people say dumb or offensive things, this will stress you further rather than you being able to float above it. Many people will get worried by a lone parent expressing the sort of frustration you've expressed. The real question is what you do about it. You're on the path to doing the right things.

I think your suggestion of a SALT discussion and asking for a referral to the Ed Psych sounds like a really good idea. Keep in mind that not every psych is a good fit to a particular situation, so if the school's one doesn't seem to be helping much, then try another avenue. The NAS can be extremely helpful - get involved with them if you can. I think you could probably do with seeing your GP to discuss the stress of your situation - not necessarily asking for a particular referral or whatever if you don't want to (though GP can probably refer to a psych to help with the "untruths"), but talking through the options for help and what the triggers should be for asking for help via the GP.

Good luck smile

Illgetmycoat Thu 31-Jan-13 22:55:17

I'm really sorry, but I have NEVER heard of a school where they expect the 5yo's to bring the dinner money in. I just don't believe this thread.Sorry OP.

Kiriwawa Thu 31-Jan-13 22:56:10

I'm not really sure why you've posted if I'm honest.

You don't want advice or help. You don't want anyone to tell you that your DD's behaviour is pretty standard for 5YOs.

The only thing I think you're you're looking for is validation that your enormous anger at the behaviour of your 5 year old child with learning difficulties is well deserved.

I think you came to the wrong place.

Bobyan Thu 31-Jan-13 22:56:54

Has my anger at my kids resulted in me crying and physically shaking? No

If it ever did it would mean that I was losing control of my emotions.

OP this is far more than a crappy day, especially as in the same post you mention "years of frustration".

If you don't get some help the only person to suffer is your dd.

Bobyan Thu 31-Jan-13 22:57:17

Spot on Kiri.

Shakirasma Thu 31-Jan-13 22:57:38


Of course I get angry with my children, even my ASD son.

But I can honestly say I never, ever get angry or ranty at my DS for any behaviour which is directly atributable to his ASD and I would have plenty to say about it to anybody that did!

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 22:58:55

I really think it's time to lay off now.

I think we've said it all. The OP has stuck around. Of course she feels defensive, but the posts stand and she can read at her leisure. Nothing further to be gained by berating her more.

OP. i wish you well. Some great advice on here.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 23:00:28

It's a "maternal crime" to take out adult frustrations on a 5 year old disabled child because she is behaving in a totally understandable way.

Show me where i 'took out my frustrations'?

You all seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions, and aren't reading my posts clearly.

My dd was not affected at all by my virtual/cyber outburst, because she's not psychic. She can't read my mind. Nor can she read this thread.

I am sickened and insulted by the way ASD diagnosis is being tossed about on this thread.

The reason i seem 'cold' towards a lot of your responses is because i think they're bollocks.

How on earth you can diagnose ASD over the internet, on a stressed out mum having a rare rant is quite hilarious, if not disgusting.

Also, being called a bully for telling off my child (goodness me!) is equally hilarious.

thebody Thu 31-Jan-13 23:01:16

Know what I don't belive this thread either!

There said it. Read it all and as a reception TA I just can't accept a school MAKES a 5 year old take in a weeks cash as dinner money.

Doesn't ring true.

edam Thu 31-Jan-13 23:01:54

Lowla, I'm so glad you acknowledged further down the thread that your expectations of your dd are unrealistic. I think you really need some help/to do some research about how small children understand and experience the world. Calling her a 'liar' is incredibly harsh. Small children do not have the same rigid understanding of 'reality' and 'fantasy' that adults do. They don't have all those years of experience, much less the same brain development.

You need to be able to grasp what the world looks like through her eyes. Not sure if the 'what to expect' books go up to five years, but you do need to get hold of some decent (i.e. evidence-based) books on child development so you can understand what her world is like. Have a look on Amazon for books by Tanya Bryon - v. good and sensible child psychologist.

For instance, a ten pound note doesn't carry huge significance to a child - they don't get pay packets, they don't have bank accounts, to them it's just a piece of paper that Mummy hands over in a shop in return for something, they have very little ability to quantify it.

If only you could see the difference between a child's brain and a child's mind and an adults, you'd be astonished at the demands you are making of your dd and how unreasonable they are. Honestly. That doesn't make you a bad mother, we can all learn stuff all the time, and I'm sure I'm really crap at some stuff that you do extremely well. But you are way off target in your expectations of your dd.

CheerfulYank Thu 31-Jan-13 23:01:56

I've cried because I've been angry/frustrated at my son.

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 23:02:44

Agree Jamie, op if you're still reading don't end up staying up reading just get yourself off to bed. I really hope tomorrow's a better day, and perhaps over the weekend just maybe look at doing some of those visual lists and what yoy might want to speak to dd teacher about.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 23:03:45

Yes, i was calm. Which is why i felt like ripping their heads off. They were obviously as precious as the majority of you. Can't tell a child you're upset. Can't insist a child looks for their shoes tomorrow. Can't tell a child to stop running away from you in case they get lost.

Its weird that they would give you looks just for that.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 23:04:47

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

The SALT is great. Already enrolled me in two courses - due to start a Hanen one next month. Hopefully she'll be able to come up with ideas/strategies to help dd with her stuff, and start telling the 'truth' more. Hopefully bring forward the review meeting too.

Anna - thanks very much. Your posts are really informative.

Kiriwawa Thu 31-Jan-13 23:07:21

CheerfulYank - oh god me too. Many times. I haven't sat and seethed for two hours in another room because he lost an item of clothing though.

VicarInaTutu Thu 31-Jan-13 23:07:37

hi OP
im a mum to a man child of 21 with ASD who still loses things weekly. If you get stressed you will be in for a very long hard road.....they just cant help it.

DS is very bright, he is a uni but need to find ways to make life easier - if that means taking dinner money to the office yourself so be it, if it means handing PE kit to the teaching assistant - so be it. honestly make life easier for both you you and find ways of working around the problems - if your DD does have ASD she will always forget things/lose things - its part of the condition.

good luck! it is frustrating but you have to adapt....

LovesGSD Thu 31-Jan-13 23:07:40

illgetmycoat, schools do expect DC's to bring in their own dinner money, I know my children have from age 5 always dealt with the dinner money. I would and still do give a cheque tho as that's easier to keep tabs on.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 23:09:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 23:09:43

I get angry with my kids and know plenty of other mums that do too. Those saying they never do are the exception in my opinion.

For me though the problem isn't that you got angry but that you are still so angry all these hours later that your daughter doesn't behave the way you want and you are still blaming her for being forgetful and telling fibs. Also still expecting too much for her age. I find that a bit extreme and that's coming from someone who has been to anger management. Unless you adjust your expectations the anger will keep coming.

Kiriwawa Thu 31-Jan-13 23:09:53

X-posted. Hope your sessions are useful

littlemisssarcastic Thu 31-Jan-13 23:10:43

And i've listened to everyone! (except the strange people who are distressed by my thread...).

So you've listened to very few posts then, because by all accounts, most posts on here are from people who are distressed at what you have written.

That just shows how adamant you are that your behaviour was acceptable today, that you call the people who were distressed 'strange'. How rude to label people as strange after they understandably became distressed by your behaviour and took time to post, to offer you advice.

Every time someone challenges your behaviour, you automatically go into defensive/sarcastic mode...I do hope you don't attempt sarcasm as a way of getting your feelings across to your daughter.
It wont be very effective.

Mind you, I am wasting my time writing this aren't I? Because you are only listening to the people who are wiping your furrowed brow, stroking your hair for you.

I'm not so you'll not be listening to me, because I am more concerned about your DD than I am about you.

This thread was supposed to be all about you wasn't it OP. Your feelings of frustration and resentment and anger, and that's why you're getting all PA when people are distracted from how you feeling because they are focusing on your DD.

If you are a PA person, a sarcastic person, you will find DD much much harder work than needs be.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 23:11:52

I haven't sat and seethed for two hours in another room because he lost an item of clothing though.

Neither have i, Kiri.

I 'seethed' because of a whole number of things that's happened today. If i'd had a great day of work, dd had never lost anything before, she didn't constantly 'embellish' - then i'm sure i would have been my usual, chirpy self this evening.

Illgetmycoat Thu 31-Jan-13 23:14:24

I'm sorry, but you as a parent (or a carer if not) have to walk the little ones to school. What's to stop you/the carer from putting the cheque /cash in the office yourself? Why would you lay that responsibility on your child, when he/ she is already dealing with a new environment / new stimulation. It just doesn't add up. Particularly if your child has ASD.

Dancergirl Thu 31-Jan-13 23:14:41

Lowla, you took out your frustrations on your dd because you had had a bad day! So I'm assuming if you didn't have a bad day and the only 'crime' was the money/kit issue, you would not have reacted so strongly?

Buzzardbird Thu 31-Jan-13 23:16:44

Something keeps bugging me reading this OP. I don't know anything about ASD but can it affect short term memory?
My father had some brain damage which meant he had an excellent long term memory but couldn't remember what happened 5 mins ago. He would just make stuff up or repeat the same thing over and over. It was his way of dealing with it. It drove my poor mother up the wall, but he couldn't help it.
Also I must say that a great deal of my DD's (6) friends parents complain to me that their DC's cannot remember what they have done at school that day and make up random stories about what they have been doing so I don't think the embellishment is that unusual. My DD tells me some corkers but I take it as the imagination of a 6yr old which is more interesting than the truth.
I really hope you get some help with the school as their expectations do seem a little high for such a young child.
If it helps any I think you have done a wonderful job to only lose your temper once in 5yrs when you have been doing it all single handed. Most of us can walk out of the room when things get too much and someone will take over. You don't have that luxury.

LovesGSD Thu 31-Jan-13 23:17:49

because the office staff have enough to deal with without a line of parents waiting to pay in dinner money.

My DC's newsletters are always reminding parents that children are responsible for topping up the lunch card.

Dancergirl Thu 31-Jan-13 23:18:02

Exactly fuckadoodle Of course everyone gets angry with their dc, that's not what this is about. I've been REALLY angry with my dc at times but that really angry feeling lasts 10 mins max, not hours on end.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 23:19:03

What's to stop you/the carer from putting the cheque /cash in the office yourself?

Because the school's policy is for the children to take it themselves. That's what's stopping me.

Also, dd rarely has school dinners. this was a one off with the £10.

Lowla, you took out your frustrations on your dd because you had had a bad day!

But i didn't take my frustrations out on her...

I took them out on my keyboard when typing my OP, whilst dd was blissfully unaware in the next room.

I told dd off for 'embellishing' about her teacher, and i told her i was upset she lost her shoes.

Yes, even if i'd otherwise had a great day, i still would have told her off.

FWIW - telling off does not equal screaming.

Lowla Thu 31-Jan-13 23:20:48

Buzzard - that's actually really interesting. And fits in with dd.

The only time she says the full truth about something is when she's discussing past events i.e. a year plus ago.

Thanks very much.

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 23:21:06

littlemisssarcastic your comment about the OP only listening to those who stroke her furrowed brow is frankly a bit unfair. You're expecting someone who has already said she is extremely stressed to behave rationally. What I am trying to do here is be constructive and provide a clear path of action that the OP can follow without further stress. I think the OP is expressing some of her feelings (anger towards the posters who are angry at her) in a way that says to me "very very stressed and in need of calm, helpful guidance". When the OP is less stressed she might come back to this thread and see that it is possible to float above silly responses and discuss things calmly with criticizers who have a wpoint worth making. But for the moment, let's actually try to alleviate the stress, provide help to the OP and ultimately provide help to the OP's DD.
FWIW I have ranted on here in order to not rant in real life many times. i think a lot of people do it. Isn't that what it's for?

StabbyMacStabby Thu 31-Jan-13 23:23:21

We've all had bad days, and surely the majority of children can be really difficult at times, never mind a child with an ASC. Her chronological age might be 5 but developmentally she is probably a quite a bit younger. My DS also has high functioning autism (which isn't "learning difficulty" Kiriwawa) and I have been frustrated beyond measure at the way he reacts to things. It's so difficult to know his motivation, and until I properly understand why he is behaving the way he is (all behaviour is communication, we have to look for the reason for the behaviour in order to change it) then I will struggle to know how best to deal with it.

I don't think taking away her DVDs when she tells a lie will help btw, you're just making a rod for your own back by potentially losing something you can use as a reward for the behaviour you want to encourage. Autism meddles with the person's ability to understand consequences for their actions, and unless you are perfectly certain she does understand a) exactly what a lie is, and b) why it is wrong to tell untruths and all the associated social reasons for lying, you're not going to have much success. I don't think it's likely she does truly understand, because those kind of concepts are very difficult for a child on the autistic spectrum to process, and she is very young - even an NT child of her age might struggle to genuinely get it.

I also agree that although school seem lovely to you, they really are not supporting her properly - they should be assessing and identifying the areas she struggles with, and devising strategies to help her manage. You are both struggling way too much, and they are leaving a lot to you and not looking for ways that accommodate your DD's difficulties. The palaver over the dinner money is an example of this - there is no room for this kind of rigidity where SNs are concerned, and frankly it's a system that will probably cause a lot of angst amongst a significant proportion of the parents. Because children DO lose things and DON'T understand the value of money.

I thought your DD sounds lovely by the way, even if your placatory butterfly picture had an ulterior motive...

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 23:24:21

(and OP sorry if that sounds patronising blush)

Letmeintroducemyself Thu 31-Jan-13 23:24:27

For the third time on this thread, DS SCHOOL HAS THE SAME POLICY AND HE IS ONLY IN RECEPTION, he has to take his £1.90 in, in cash every day, the children on the school bus also have to.

The school staff do not deal with lunch monies, the dinner ladies do.

I am horrified, DS is so little, but its school policy, and its annoying as hell.

My DS has some issues, they are behavioural, they are sodding hard work, I get angry at him, I try so hard not to - but there are days, when its all just too much, and his screaming and tantrumming is hard hard work.

I know its my problem and my fault, but still, we are all human, give the OP a break.

Illgetmycoat Thu 31-Jan-13 23:25:00

LovesGSD - that's what the office staff are there to do in the mornings at the beginning of term at our school(!)

Without giving any revealing details, where the heck do you lot live, where 5 year olds are held responsible for their own lunch-time finance? I think you should contact your MPs.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 23:25:05

Hhear hear Anna

foreverondiet Thu 31-Jan-13 23:27:45

She is 5 and had ASD. You being totally unrealistic and totally unreasonable to be angry with her.

My 6 YO son (year 2) does not have any medical issues, just a bit scatty. I would not give him any lunch money, have to pay it straight to school or he'd lose. Any envelopes for school office I hand in himself. PE shoes always from M&S = £3.50 - they are velcro so if half a size just do up tighter.

He forgets his book bags every day unless I specifically remind him when I pick him up. He is wet as he forgot to go to the toilet. He leaves his snack on kitchen table so doesn't have that unless I take it to school. If I want to give a note to his teacher I email her as he would lose the note. He has lost his coat several times - I now ask friends with older children for handme downs so we have a couple on the go at any one time.

Don't buy new blazer - make an appointment with school senco to discuss now to help her.

jessalwithlove Thu 31-Jan-13 23:29:37

Ok ur upset ur angry, Everyone has given advise n ways to help' but seriously u say shes been constantly reminded to check her stuff. How long has she been responsible for the 10pound every week before she lost it. Credit for that smileShe lost her trainers u furiously went to asda, she doesnt care,if she did not care why would she be making you a picture to cheer u up & ur worry about how angry u are to recieve it, Money may be tight u only get one chance to make them all they can be, My 4yr loses things & finds them all the time thats life

justmyview Thu 31-Jan-13 23:29:40

Can't help being drawn back to this thread. I'm still finding it distressing. Sounds like OP is not coping well and DD is suffering as a result. Poor little thing.

Letmeintroducemyself Thu 31-Jan-13 23:33:16

MY DS isnt 5 - he is 4. Its really annoying, and it relys on him telling his teacher he is having hot dinners himself.

littlemisssarcastic Thu 31-Jan-13 23:33:18

Anna1976 Maybe you are right, but no harm done. OP isn't even listening to my posts. You see, I am one of the posters who is distressed by this thread.

I'm sure OP will come back and reply to your post though Anna, since you are wanting to help the OP.

Personally, I am more concerned about her DD, and therefore OP wont have anything but defensive sarcasm to say to me.

It's all about the OP!! Boom boom!!

zzzzz Thu 31-Jan-13 23:33:23

The school need to differentiate for your child. This means they try to make it an even playing field for her. So it's fine for you to take the money in for her regardless of the policy for children who don't have her disability.

mathanxiety Thu 31-Jan-13 23:35:27

You are angry and frustrated to an insane degree and you need to get help for yourself before things get out of hand, because bad days happen, but we all have a choice as to how we deal with them, and you chose the wrong way today.

Your comments about your DD's 'lying' reveal you have no understanding whatsoever of children aged 5, let alone a child with ASD, and your comments about discipline/what scared her/throwing away her dvds reveal a similar ignorance of ASD children mixed in with some issue with anger management on your part.

Yes, i was angry that dd had lost her things again and didn't give a shit. This had added on to my already crappy day. And? I need help for having a bad day? If everyone went to their GP for have a rare crappy day, the doctors wouldn't have time to see genuine patients.
Stop being obtuse.
You have a problem and it is not your crappy day.

For your child's sake, please get the help you so obviously need.

Some other child took the money and kit either deliberately or by accident. Hopefully some parent out there will be honest and return it.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 31-Jan-13 23:39:20


Alienating the OP won't help her open her mind and challenge her thinking, which won't help her DD, which is what everyone wants. That's my view.

Letmeintroducemyself Thu 31-Jan-13 23:42:26

I took my DS to see a therapist, the therapist saw me and DH (Im not going to go into why, but its not because of how we were treating DS, but because as a family we were in a distressing situation.

The therapists logic was by supporting DH and I - that is how best to help DS.

Supporting the OP at this juncture, is how best to help her DD.

She knows she is stressed and no coping well.

foreverondiet Thu 31-Jan-13 23:44:03

Also re: the lying - I think that's fairly normal at that age - she doesn't mean to lie, more that's just how things appear to her. She probably forgot you gave her the money.

OP - people are trying to be supportive, but surely you can see that you have totally unrealistic expectations of a 5 year old, and you need to be sitting down with the class teacher/head teacher/SENCO at school to work out how they can help. If they can't then maybe its the wrong school.

eg I explained that DS always forgets his snacks and we have agreed that he can have a box of cheerios and some school bars in his tray. I always hand money and forms directly to office. On PE days, apart from in middle of winter send him in wearing shorts and t-shirt so he only has to change shoes. With DD send her age 5 in leggings under skirt so she only had to take skirt off. And thats without SN.

Anna1976 Thu 31-Jan-13 23:49:11

Jamie & Letme - hear hear. smile

To some extent, this is all about what we can do to help the OP so she can help herself and others to help her DD.

Giving the OP constructive new ways to think and act, so she sees how to move forward and isn't just reacting to frustration/ feeling trapped, is what is needed here. The strategies for getting help that she has mentioned up thread sound the right way of acquiring new ways to think.

No-one likes seeing a stressed (and quite possibly angry) parent not coping with a child's (quite possibly very annoying) behaviours. But the way forward isn't just to say "poor child, it's not her fault, you shouldn't be angry". It's "here's how you need to deal with it yourself, and here's how you explain things to the kid so the behaviours change".

mathanxiety Thu 31-Jan-13 23:53:33

But i didn't take my frustrations out on her...

You berated her all over Asda to the extent that you got dirty looks from people, and you also got a look from a woman whose trolley you moved. I have a certain mental picture of the sort of verbal harangue that went on. I have seen scenes like that when out shopping and they weren't pretty.
Can't tell a child you're upset. Can't insist a child looks for their shoes tomorrow. Can't tell a child to stop running away from you in case they get lost. Are these the things you were saying that turned heads?

And it would be impossible to be as angry as you have been to people on this thread and to vent about your DD yet cool as a cucumber in your living room. You said yourself that your child tried to write a letter of apology to you. It actually seemed to anger you a lot that she was 'blissfully unaware' in the other room and you were dreaming up ways to make her sit up and take notice of your anger, strategies like throwing away her dvds.

You've never felt like punching a wall? I never had until today either. Doubt i'll feel it again for a good while too. Feels as if i've finally released years of frustration.
Get help. This is not healthy and it is not normal.

mathanxiety Thu 31-Jan-13 23:54:28

Why have you bottled up years of frustration?

Journey Fri 01-Feb-13 00:01:51

Op - I think some of the posts in reply to your thread are awful and very insensitive.

I think you're needing support. Your family are in denial about your DD's ASD and the school don't seem to be supporting you. It is only about 1.5 or so years since your DD was diagnosed. Emotionally you have a lot on your shoulders.

Perhaps before posting to the op people should think what it must be like to have to face up to your child having ASD and being pulled in the other direction by your family not believing it.

I would ask for the school to make exceptions for things like school dinner money. You need someone to share the burden and the school has a duty of care.

I wish you all the best op.

JoanByers Fri 01-Feb-13 00:05:06

My DS is 10, and ASD and loses stuff constantly. I think he has had six pairs of glasses in 3 years. He left behind a £100 electric toothbrush when he went on a school trip, which we didn't get back.

He regularly comes home with one sock or no socks on.

It is what it is, he certainly doesn't do it deliberately.

Have you applied for DLA for your DD? It is quite obvious from what you say that there are costs that you have for her that, were she not disabled, you would not face - i.e. replacing all this kit.

Letmeintroducemyself Fri 01-Feb-13 00:09:09

Journey, its hard when your family dont believe there is anything wrong.

littlemisssarcastic Fri 01-Feb-13 00:10:19

Anna1976 here's how you need to deal with it yourself, and here's how you explain things to the kid so the behaviours change".

I actually agree with you, but none of that is helpful if the OP doesn't even admit she needs help. If the OP cannot see that she has a problem, and just blames the child for the problems, progress will never be made.

The first part of solving a problem is to admit you have one. OP hasn't done that, and maybe that's why people are saying 'Poor child' etc etc, because all the OP keeps coming back with is the child is the problem, not her anger.

I think posters are quite reasonably trying to explain that the child is NOT the problem here.
How many posters have implored with the OP to get help? Many many posters have asked the OP to get help, directed the OP to the SN board, advised the OP to go to her GP etc etc etc yet she doesn't appear to think she has a problem at all and responds with sarcasm and defensiveness and at times, rudeness. If only her DD would do XYZ, everything would be just fine and dandy.

I agree that if the OP were to see that she has a problem, posters could explain how to deal with it. In fact, I have seen posters explaining how she could deal with the problems, which don't put the blame on the child, yet OP still comes back with sarcasm and defensiveness.

OP has been offered lots of advice and support on here, but the real issue is that OP doesn't think there is a problem with how she handles her DD's behaviours, she doesn't want advice, she only wanted to rant...and then continue doing what she's always done.

Very sad thread. Very sad indeed.

I am going to bed now. I hope OP gets some help, but until she admits (even to herself) that she has a problem, no one on this planet can help her, and ultimately, they then cannot help her to help her DD either. sad

skullcandy Fri 01-Feb-13 00:12:28

again, i have HFA, my ST memory is diabolical, i live via post-its and the recent additional blessings of the diary in my crackberry!

I really struggle to remember something said to me a few minutes ago, or where i put things if i dont remember to put them in a specific place, which i have to train myself to do by making it a routine that i will repeat until it becomes habit... like remembering to clip my car key to the metal ring on my handbag as soon as i lock the car, or putting it in the 'key pot' on the table when i come in the house.

I'm always losing things, my keys, pens, books, jewellery, watches... i drive my DH batty, i cant remember if i locked the doors on the house even though i did it 2 minutes before, i cant remember that i told my kids id fill their drink or get them a biscuit because i get distracted, even my 6yo has to remind me of things!

OP, perhaps what your DDs school needs to do is create a routine with DD and do it with her every single morning until it becomes her morning habit and she can be trusted to follow it faithfully.. same with packing after PE and things like that.

If i go out of routine i forget things, i lose things, i get flustered and stressed.. and i LIE embellish to cover my memory lapse, especially if its going to get me into trouble with anyone!

of COURSE i remembered to do that.. what do you mean its not there? I know i put it there, i did it XXX ago (no i didnt, i forgot, but i'm not telling them that, so ill lie about embellish it instead)

IneedAsockamnesty Fri 01-Feb-13 00:21:49

Op a few things that may help.

Buy some Velcro tape, make laminated cards mark them mon- fri write on each card the things needed on each day draw a box next to each item.on the bottom of each day have to sign lines one with your name under one with hers. Then laminate the cards on each corner on th ack of the card stick some Velcro on her school bag stick the other side of the Velcro and then sew round the Velcro on th bag ( poppers can also work if you have one of those popper putter on gadgets)

Each day or night before bed you and dd add into your routine the bag list check and tick dd ticks box as item is added to bag and both sign on the lines ( use white board markers as they wipe clean daily,you do the wiping not dd) when all boxes are ticked.

Voila you have a factual list readly available to show you dd and school that yes all items were present and correct.

That starts each day with everybody knowing whats where and when. Removes the lie factor as if dd does say it wasn't there you calmly say " look dd it was,you signed the list"

Arrange a different method of paying for school dinners point out that the school have a legal obligation to make the whole school day accesable to dd whil accomadating her disability this means accepting a different method of payment for her dinners.

Get a notepad and use it as a home school link info book and in it write stuff you want to bring to the attention of the school, if you require a phone call or wish to arrange a meeting use that to do so.

Buzzardbird Fri 01-Feb-13 00:22:34

That skull was exactly what I was trying to explain. Thank you for putting it better than I did .

StuntGirl Fri 01-Feb-13 00:25:36

I think littlemisssarcastic has raised some very valid points.

I hope the OP can look at this thread tomorrow, or another time when she's feeling more collected, and see many of the posts for what they are; concern for her and her daughter.

bubbles1231 Fri 01-Feb-13 00:54:35

Read this with interest
Lowla I bet this'll be the last time you vent on here- judging by the reactions! We've all had really crappy days, and when feelings are running high we just type how we feel. I bet there's not a single one of us who hasn't felt intense frustration with our children. That includes all those on here who have been most critical. We just haven't posted about it.
Best thing is to have a good niight's sleep- tomorrow is another day.
FWIW our school expects children to bring in dinner money (cash or cheque), in their own purse. Each class has to visit the dinner lady on Mon morning to pay for their week's dinner. I think for the younger ones the teacher collects in all the purses to make sure they aren't lost, but it would be easy for another little one to pick up the wrong one. They are young to be doing this but a compassionate teacher should recognise those who struggle with the process. I'm sure a quiet word with her teacher will help.

MerryCouthyMows Fri 01-Feb-13 00:55:37

For the lost 'stuff', in future, Sharpies are your friend. Coat? Sharpie the name on the lining, right across the inside of the back, 3 inches high. Shoes and trainers? Sharpie the name on the tongues. Pencil Case? Sharpie on the lid AND base, AND on every pen, pencil and rubber.

Just sharpie EVERYTHING.

And as for this school's frankly barmy policy of asking 5yo's to hand in a week's worth of dinner money? I mean, WTF?! Even an NT 5yo is going to struggle MASSIVELY with that, let alone one with ASD.

Challenge that, and either hand the money to the teacher yourself, explaining that you cannot afford for your DD to lose it again, or go to the office and hand it in, saying the same.

Hand all PE kits to the teacher if you are not allowed to hang them on their pegs yourself.

Buy cheap. Buy pencils in bulk.

And most of all, accept that your DD has ASD, and that WILL cause her to have additional needs in certain areas - organisation and keeping tracks on her 'stuff' being just one of them.

And accept that, no matter what you do, things WILL get lost.

Even when they are 15, if they have ASD. <<Looks pointedly at DD, who has had a blinding week this week, managing to lose her scientific calculator (Y10, so absolutely essential), her clip on tie that costs £6 to replace, her PE socks that cost £5 to replace, AND one, yes, ONE of her PE trainers. None of which are in lost property.>>

It is part and parcel of having a DC with ASD, getting angry about it won't stop her from losing the things, OP, it will only make YOU stressed, and her confused as to why you are angry with her. Especially for something that she can't really help doing.

MerryCouthyMows Fri 01-Feb-13 00:55:37

For the lost 'stuff', in future, Sharpies are your friend. Coat? Sharpie the name on the lining, right across the inside of the back, 3 inches high. Shoes and trainers? Sharpie the name on the tongues. Pencil Case? Sharpie on the lid AND base, AND on every pen, pencil and rubber.

Just sharpie EVERYTHING.

And as for this school's frankly barmy policy of asking 5yo's to hand in a week's worth of dinner money? I mean, WTF?! Even an NT 5yo is going to struggle MASSIVELY with that, let alone one with ASD.

Challenge that, and either hand the money to the teacher yourself, explaining that you cannot afford for your DD to lose it again, or go to the office and hand it in, saying the same.

Hand all PE kits to the teacher if you are not allowed to hang them on their pegs yourself.

Buy cheap. Buy pencils in bulk.

And most of all, accept that your DD has ASD, and that WILL cause her to have additional needs in certain areas - organisation and keeping tracks on her 'stuff' being just one of them.

And accept that, no matter what you do, things WILL get lost.

Even when they are 15, if they have ASD. <<Looks pointedly at DD, who has had a blinding week this week, managing to lose her scientific calculator (Y10, so absolutely essential), her clip on tie that costs £6 to replace, her PE socks that cost £5 to replace, AND one, yes, ONE of her PE trainers. None of which are in lost property.>>

It is part and parcel of having a DC with ASD, getting angry about it won't stop her from losing the things, OP, it will only make YOU stressed, and her confused as to why you are angry with her. Especially for something that she can't really help doing.

piprabbit Fri 01-Feb-13 01:48:27

OP, I've had one go at giving you some ideas for next steps. Now I would like to very strongly suggest you watch this short video clip called Truth, Fibs and Lies it will give you a feel for why your DD might lie and some tools to cope with it.

When you've watched that video, you might like to explore the rest of as they have also sort of support and advice on coping with the tough times that parents and children experience.

Please take a moment - it's only a click away smile.

MerryCouthyMows Fri 01-Feb-13 02:17:52

OP - as a general rule of thumb, a DC with ASD will function at around 2/3 of their chronological age.

I have 3 on the spectrum, and this rings true for all of them - my DD is almost 15, but functions socially and emotionally at more of a 10yo's level. My DS2 is 9, and socially and emotionally is far more like a 6yo. My DS3 is 24mo, and functions far more like a toddler of around 16 months old.

My Dbro also has Aspergers, and the 2/3 thing works for him - at 21 he functions socially and emotionally like a 15yo.

I would hazard a guess that if you look at an average NT 3 - 3.5yo, your DD will be acting far more like them than like her peers.

Give it some thoughts about whether you would expect a 3.5yo to know where the line between fantasy and reality is, whether they understand the impact of untruths are, whether they understand the impact of losing 'stuff', whether an NT 3.5yo could be expected to be responsible for money?

The answer is probably not.

And it doesn't matter how well she is doing academically, either - my Dbro is currently in his final year at Uni, on course to get a First in Environmental Sciences.

He has spent his rent money on pizza so many times this term that my mother has had to take a loan out to pay his rent, he has lost the £££ special laptop provided by the disabled student people, lost his card to get back into halls, lost ONE of his trainers...the list goes on and on, but he is a 21yo with the emotional and social maturity of a 15yo, trying to cope in a 21yo's world.

He gets so frustrated with HIMSELF now (though that's a new development, only about two years ago...) that he can't do these things.

But it's part and parcel of ASD's, IMO and IME.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 01-Feb-13 02:37:10

OP, reread the thread in a coupe of days time. There's a lot of useful and constructive suggestions in amongst the shock and anger.
You need support, the school rules need to be adapted to accommodate your DD's sn and you need to recognise that, as has already been stated, her perceptions and responses are not NT.
I've said this before, but...
I have a pet. If I wanted it to bark, fetch a ball and go walkies with me, I'm on a losing wicket. Because it's a cat.
So I have to appreciate what my cat has to offer instead of constantly getting frustrated and angry about its lack of doggy skills. Because the nature of the beast won't change.

Stop fighting and analyse what she is, study her like some rare exotic rather than assuming she should respond like a mundane. She won't and isn't, and that will just increase the challenge you face until you recognise it and work with what you have.

Oh, and Bobyan?

'*She just doesn't give a shit
I honestly feel like punching a wall
I'm at the end of my tether with her
Argh! I can't stop crying! I'm actually shaking with anger
I feel like screaming!
DD is clumsy and a compulsive liar
I know this is going to keep happening and happening*

FOR FUCK SAKE GET SOME HELP, I have never felt like this about my kids the very fact you feel like this and think about your DD like this is horrible.'

I've felt and done a lot of these things about DS over the last 18 years, living with a child on the spectrum can be very challenging indeed, and it is forever. What is the alternative for the OP? She can't rehome her DD like a cat. So she'll have to find a way of coping.

mathanxiety Fri 01-Feb-13 03:26:57

Finding a way of coping is the help she needs to get.
For herself.

She needs to get help for herself in managing her own stress, frustration, emotions and behaviour.

insanityscratching Fri 01-Feb-13 07:23:43

I have two children with autism, I have a different perspective on the lying, maybe it fits with your dd too.

My two know the rules of conversation, they know that you take turns, you listen and answer the questions. What they aren't so good at is knowing when to say " I don't know" (although at 17 ds has grasped this and uses "I don't know" all the time instead now confused) or "I don't remember" or even "look I don't feel like talking I want to do this instead"

My dd especially struggles and so she fills in the gaps in a conversation with anything that comes into her head because she knows the pause means it's her turn. Yes sometimes it doesn't relate to the conversation but she's getting better at that so now it often does relate to the conversation but might not be fact.

So a conversation about her teacher might start like "was Mrs S at school today?" and dd will say "no she'd gone to the circus" She's not lying even though her teacher was in school, she's filling in the gaps with answers that she hasn't really thought about because it's more important to her that she says something than nothing.

I'm glad you are going on the Hanen course as it will give you a lot of insight into your dd and increase your understanding of her difficulties because your anger at her shows you have very little understanding of ASD tbh and that must be miserable for you both.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 01-Feb-13 07:25:52

'Finding a way of coping is the help she needs to get.
For herself.

She needs to get help for herself in managing her own stress, frustration, emotions and behaviour.'

That's what I meant mathsanxiety, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Passthesaltdear Fri 01-Feb-13 07:34:24

If your dd is functioning at about 2/3 of her age this would make sense as my son is 3.6 and not on the spectrum but the 'lying' during conversation he does constantly, he is creating fantasy's/imaginary lives in his head. Perfectly normal for his age and your dd if she is socially functioning at that age.

Good luck OP

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 01-Feb-13 08:05:51

My brother who is on the spectrum loses things all the time and does clumsy things like dropping his phone down the toilet. He does that every couple of months and doesn't learn. My dad who i believe also has sen is the clumsiest person I've ever met. He breaks everything he touches and forgets things constantly. He cant organise himself or pay attention to anything anyone says for longer than a few seconds so its hard to get any information out of him or to get him to remember the important thing I've asked him to do.

Its so frustrating!

The 2/3 thing is interesting, never heard that before.

SaraBellumHertz Fri 01-Feb-13 08:10:51

OP you seem unreasonably outraged regarding suggestions that you might be autistic, sreferring to be insulted and upset. You're also very clearly angry.

The focus of your distress also appears to be others thinking ill of you, your DDs teacher, the individuals in Asda.

I wonder why that is? I really think it is something you need to talk through with a professional.

FWIW I have been angry with my DC and often consider myself to be rather lacking in both patience and maternal instinct but I have never ever cried over a lost item, shaken with rage or felt like punching a wall. Honestly that is a total overreaction.

Kiriwawa Fri 01-Feb-13 08:41:48

Stabby - that's how DS's school have referred to autism in relation to him and it's a term they use on the autism website so not sure why you've pulled me up on it confused

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 08:47:03

I've just had a very rare outburst

Except it wasn't an 'outburst' was it? It went on for some time, even to the point you were still telling her off as you went round the supermarket and you were visibly angry enough for a complete stranger to notice. You were still cross even after she had gone to bed.

Everything you have posted sounds like standard 5 year old behaviour. It's not her job yet to keep track of her things at 5 that comes later.

Crinkle77 Fri 01-Feb-13 08:59:53

I think at 5 most children have little concept of the value of money and don't realise that it doesn't grow on trees. I remember when I was little thinking that all you had to do was go to the cash point and draw it out.

HecateWhoopass Fri 01-Feb-13 09:01:22

Wow. Quite the beating you've had.

Some things strike me. I really don't think that the school are working with you and your daughter as well as they could. It may very well be that she needs and is entitled to, some 1:1 support. Does she have a statement or anything?

There should certainly be some form of handover, at the very least.

They really shouldn't be so rigid in their rules and just let you hand in some bloody money to the office. They really are supposed to be able to bend a bit for children who need it.

Also, what help is she/are you getting? After diagnosis, what interventions have there been? Are you following any particular approach in helping to teach her the things she needs to know?

What support do you have for yourself? Are you in touch with any groups, for example? Are you getting tips and advice about how to manage behaviours that you may be struggling with from time to time?

Re the lying. What about smiling and saying that's a lovely story, very creative, what might have happened next?

you can then say things like what about if I didn't forget, and it was that you lost it, what might happen next...

It seems like she's telling you what she wanted to happen or what she thinks you want to hear - or perhaps just what she thinks will keep her out of trouble grin or she may actually have rewritten what happened so that what she tells you actually is her truth. If you can guide her through, see what it is that she thinks might happen, you might figure out why she lies so much.

My eldest (my kids are both autistic) went through a phase of telling me that "a ghost did it" grin and he lies to me all the time. About having brushed his teeth, about having tidied his room, things I can clearly prove are not true. I think he does it because he doesn't want to do them.

And yes, I have sometimes plastered a smile on my face and been lovely while inside screaming and shouting and raging against the universe.

It happens.

HecateWhoopass Fri 01-Feb-13 09:04:12

sorry. rereading you do say she doesn't have any support (apologies, it's a long thread). Is that something that ought to be looked at again, do you think?

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:08:45

And yes, I have sometimes plastered a smile on my face and been lovely while inside screaming and shouting and raging against the universe

I think the reason the OP got a beating is because that isn't what happened. She wasn't lovely on the outside at all - we can all relate to slapping a smile on our faces when things are tough.

I think support definitely should be looked at again because this was a huge over reaction to something pretty basic and standard in small children.

HecateWhoopass Fri 01-Feb-13 09:14:42

Is it not? It is a long thread, and I may have missed it. I thought that she told off her daughter - fair enough - but the strong feelings she described - rage, really - were not let out to her daughter - who she described as "blissfully unaware" of how she's feeling - but were just poured out on here. I'll go back and have another read.

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:17:36

From what was posted she told the dd off round the supermarket, looked so angry someone gave her filthy looks. The dd was drawing pictures to try and make it up to the OP and the OP was getting angry. Doesn't sound like she was hiding anything sad

KnitFastDieWarm Fri 01-Feb-13 09:18:56

Agreed. Being momentarily annoyed at a five year old with asd is one thing, sulking and holding a grudge against them is quite another.

OP, she is five. Many of your posts about her read like the kind of things I used to say about my annoying flat mates!

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:19:32

I think the OP is confusing 'blissfully unaware' with a child who is desperately trying to placate her mother so she doesn't get angry. That might be completely incorrect but from what has been posted it seems a strong possibility.

EmmaBemma Fri 01-Feb-13 09:31:45

valiumredhead, I doubt you think your posts are helping the OP, so what are you trying to achieve exactly? Looks to me like you're putting the boot in, which is easy enough on the anonymous internet, but perhaps it's time to back off for now. If you can honestly say you've never shown your frustration with your children then you are a rare diamond indeed.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 09:31:52

i,d phone the school and see if you can take the dinner money to the office instead
my dd takes all her 10.00 dinner money but lucky she hasen,t lost it yet.the schoolrequires it every monday morning. very fustrating indeed things do cost money i can only suggest promting her to take care of her stuff say how its expensive can her dinnermoney be worn with a purse that has a string so she can wear it round her neck so its close or glasses warn on string maybe a better school bag with more zips so anything dosen,t fall out.

elizaregina Fri 01-Feb-13 09:32:30

crinkle thats what my DD says to me = she is only leanring in the proccess of - what things cost! its all a learning process as is learning about feelings.
my DD sometimes cant remember what she did at school that day. its a huge transistion for them, they are still learning. her dd doesnt sound in any way different to anyone elses on here with a 5 year old.
and i dont blame my DD at all if she looses anything - well she came home without a jumper and the next day had a nasty fal and scrapped her arms. it was the school i was annoyed with we were told " oh all the jumpers end up in a big pile we havant sorted through yet". as long as op is clearly naming things - the school should be helping.
my dd is learning feelings sometimes she doesnt understand why i have been cross with her - evry time we step out onto a pavement or in a car park and she is running round blissfully unware of cars we are STILL telling her from since she was a toddler - WALK SENSIBLY etc etc etc!!! i thkn op has been going on about the lying so much thats what the dd thinks she should do.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 09:33:36

but at that age 5 it does goin one ear and out the other as they say i,m sure i was just has bad as a kid.

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:38:03

Emma I disagreed with the OP's actions( along with many other posters) very different from 'putting the boot in.'

I have suggested the OP seeks help and support.

I posted to hecate as I disagreed with her comment, nothing more, nothing less.

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:40:16

I can absolutely say I have never shown anger and frustration in the same way the OP has either to my own child or to any other charges.

Perhaps if the OP doesn't want to hear differing views then the internet is not the place for her.

EmmaBemma Fri 01-Feb-13 09:45:05

The OP hasn't talked about how she shows her frustration, she's talked about how she feels - and she's used this forum to vent her frustration instead of exposing her daughter to it.

There's one post where she said she looked cross in the supermarket - well, I see a lot of parents looking cross in the supermarket, and I've had a mumpy face on myself from time to time. I don't immediately assume we all need psychiatric help and our children are cowed and terrified. You're catastrophising.

Pagwatch Fri 01-Feb-13 09:47:37

I think it is worth saying again - if the OP comes back to read - that the school are not being reasonable in expecting 5 year olds to be responsible for dinner money. And that the communication procedures are woeful.

I have had three children at 4 different infant schools. Not one of them - including the selective prep - would expect a 5 year old to be responsible for money. It is simply unreasonable.

EmmaBemma Fri 01-Feb-13 09:51:51

My five year old's school expects her to take her dinner money in (though she's usually packed lunches and only has one school dinner every fortnight - the hallowed "mega cookie day", where there's a giant cookie for pudding) The money goes in a little brown envelope and the teacher collects it from them all on the Monday morning.

However, parents can hand it into the office instead, I think.

Pagwatch Fri 01-Feb-13 09:53:16

I would hope parents can hand it in if need be.

lougle Fri 01-Feb-13 09:54:10

Lowla can I suggest that you think about coming over to the Special Needs section? Name change if you'd feel more comfortable.

One of the things we've all learned over there is that ASD doesn't have a fixed 'picture' and children can be seeming to react in opposite ways, but the root cause is bizarrely the same!

You know that today's reaction wasn't proportionate to what happened, but I'd imagine you haven't been getting much support with your DD.

I do agree with others, that the school is not doing enough. It doesn't matter what their policy is, they have to comply with the Equalities Act, which means making 'reasonable adjustments' for disability (which ASD is). Allowing a parent to hand money for lunch in would be classed as a 'reasonable adjustment'.

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:54:24


from the OP

I'm acting like it's the end of the world. I was telling her off all round ASDA after school while buying new trainers and was getting some dirty looks off people At the time, i felt like ripping their heads off. Especially the old woman who put her trolley in the middle of the aisle, and then tutted at me when i moved it out my way!

pag is right wrt the dinner money issue - if that really is the school's policy it needs addressing, it is U and unrealistic to expect 5 year olds to hand in dinner money.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 09:55:24

i keepreading this post other and other again im sure when the op posted she diden,t think she was going to get this kind of response. i think every body had the image of the five year old girl trying to make up with her mum very sad but every mum on here must have been in asituation where they felt they want to shout scream if not then were all saints. i think the thread has gone of the loop de loop side and been taken a little out of content. some of the comments were really useful but others just seem to go on and on and miss the point.

elizaregina Fri 01-Feb-13 09:56:19

also where is all this stuff going, if its not at aschool maybe someone is taking it off her?

our school sends round emails if something has gone missing like a coat, it only happens rarely. I would be in the shcool kicking up a fuss...where on earth can all these items go to in a class room of children of that age?!

elizaregina Fri 01-Feb-13 09:57:12

i mean i wouldnt be buying new stuff but in the school looking for it myself - wanting emails to go round - asking the teachers to watch at what opporutnities are there for all this stuff to dissapear i can only seee pe time?

valiumredhead Fri 01-Feb-13 09:59:12

I agree, I would put the responsibility on the school to find the missing PE kit, it's primary school so not a huge secondary, should be easy enough to find.

Pagwatch Fri 01-Feb-13 09:59:34

Yy lougle

I asked upthread, as did other poster, that the OP consider trotting over to SN.

The point for me is that Lowla is trying so fucking hard to make life just regular - not wonderful and glowing - just a regular life where most conversations make sense and you take your kids to school and she mostly manages.
I think frustration, impotence, grief etc are all bubbling up.
Managing a life you didn't expect, didn't ask for and feel useless at is hard. Really hard. It takes time and support.

Poor Lowla is so angry because she is heartbroken . In my very humble opinion.

I was Lowla for a while.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 10:01:16

in my daughters school they have a text service and if somthing is lost they text the parents or put it in the schools news letter. i dont know what the schools op goes to but i cant imagine any teacher blaming the mum for losing the stuff also there pe kit gets left in school at all times and only to be taken home halfterm.

willyoulistentome Fri 01-Feb-13 10:02:05

Even our year 6s don't have to handle dinner money - parents have to hand it into the office on Modays. I thought all schools did this nowadays to avoid the issue of dinner money being nicked. I was obviusly wrong. I think it's nuts to make the kids 'take care of it' at age 5. Does the school know your daughter has ASD? They should be giving her help to her organise her PE things.

elizaregina Fri 01-Feb-13 10:09:48

Your 5-year-old now

"I didn't do it," your child shrieks. It doesn't matter that you saw her throw the ball that shattered your grandmother's lamp. But fortunately, lying at this age doesn't necessarily mean your child is destined for delinquency.

Try not to erupt or punish harshly. If you can discover why she lied, you can handle it more appropriately. Most likely, she's worried about getting punished or disappointing you. Kids this age don't fully understand that deceit is adding to the problem. Sometimes 5-year-olds even deny wrongdoing just to get a rise out of you.

Take care not to try to catch your child in a lie. If you saw the incident, don't then ask, "Did you break the lamp?" You just handed her an opportunity to lie. Instead say, "I saw what happened. You know you're not supposed to throw balls in the house. Help me clean up." Stress the importance of telling the truth, and set a good example. Make sure your child knows that you love and trust her to do the right thing.

Catchingmockingbirds Fri 01-Feb-13 10:13:25

In the schools around here the children don't handle money either. All children are issued a 'credit card' type thing which the teacher keeps until lunch time and the children then use to pay for food.

Cards are topped up by parents handing in money to the office and if the card runs out of money the child can still use it and the parent will get a letter home asking to top the card up again, that way there's no embarrassing moments at the till if the card runs out of credit.

For children on free school meals the cards are topped up automatically so nobody knows who is on free school meals and who isn't. I think this is a far better system than giving the children money at the start of the week.

StillSlightlyCrumpled Fri 01-Feb-13 10:18:09

Agree with others re the school. They really should make adjustments for her with the dinner money, lost kits etc.

Not long after ds2 was diagnosed with his syndrome (not asd) I was chatting to our GP about how incredibly angry I felt. Not at him, but sometimes about him. My whole parenting ideals had just been blown out of the water. In a way I was lucky as I had an older child so also got to experience parenting in the normal way. Even now, years on I have to go upstairs and take very deep breaths to calm down sometimes, and I like to think we are pretty much sorted nowadays.

I really feel that getting your daughter proper support in school will help how you feel such a lot. You say it's a great school and it may well be so in general. It needs to be great at adapting a few things for your dd too.

lougle Fri 01-Feb-13 10:22:04

Pagwatch, I understand that. I still get side-blinded at times with DD1 who is now 7. Her school are so positive about her that I almost get tricked into thinking she's like other 7 year olds. Then I suddenly realise all over again, that even as an adult she will be 'different'.

Even with DD2, who's issues aren't quite defined yet, I get frustrated that I have to clarify everything because she's so literal - it's exhausting.

However, this is the life we have - we only have one, and it's going to be a miserable one if the OP doesn't get support to deal with the hard bits and cherish the good bits.

elizaregina Fri 01-Feb-13 10:22:51

we can pay direct to the canteen for several week, or give in that days dinner money to the child in a money belt. or packed lunch.

id be directing my anger at the school.

Lowla Fri 01-Feb-13 10:32:58

Christ almighty! You lot are something else.

DD was very much bissfully unaware, thank you. I was very cross with her and was worried she'd pick up on this when handing me her picture (which she does everyday by the way - so please don't make out she was trying to 'placate' me - she wanted her tv show on). I still loved it though, as she's a very talented drawer, and it's hung up on my cork board. I took it and said thank you. I didn't rip it from her and tell her to F off. When she got annoyed i still wouldn't put the TV on, she got cranky so i sent her into the other room because i felt myself getting angry again. I didn't want to look or listen to her whining.

How dare you suggest you know my daughter better than i do. She wasn't a trembling wreck next door. She was singing away, drawing happily. She had no idea i was angry. I'm pretty certain she knew i wasn't happy about her losing her things though and 'embellishing' about her teacher, as i had told her so. Whether or not it sunk in is another matter.

And i'm sickened at the way autism is being so disrespected on here. It's insulting to parents like me who had to wait 18months on a professional diagnosis, after a series of observations, reports and interviews. Yet you lot seem to think that because a mum was having a rare bad day, she's possibly autistic. Anger does not equal autism. My dd is actually autistic and rarely angry.

We always get strange looks in ASDA! usually i just smile and stop and explain dd has autism, which is why she's behaving 'strangely' but yesterday i couldn't be arsed. I was controlled and firm when telling off dd. "Don't run away, dd." "Stop running away, DD", "Come here right now and try these shoes on, DD" "It's not my fault they don't fit properly, or feel the same as the old ones, DD, you need new trainers." Hardly screaming. So please don't make such assumptions.

And i didn't thrust the old lady's trolley out the way, to whoever implied that. She wasn't budging it. She could clearly see me. But she was too busy gabbing. DD was dying for the loo. Instead of just standing there and smiling, "Excuse me" for a millionth time, i moved it myself. And the old lady tutted at me. Actually can't believe i have to explain that. You lot have some imagination if you think there was some sort of showdown between me and a random pensioner.

Anyway, i came on here for a rant rather than bottle it up and pretend i was okay. Because i really wasn't. I felt like shit and had no one to talk to. I do not have an anger problem. I do not have autism. I do not bully my daughter.

Thanks for the messages and constructive replies. Especially the ones in agreement with me that people on this thread are lying to themselves if they can honestly say they've never felt angry with their kids before.

The only difference is you've probably got friends/family or a DH to talk to about issues, whereas i posted on here instead. Thus stupidly inviting a lot of strangers to cast judgments on me and my daughter.

Went into school office today. Found the purse (With no money in it - keychain broken), but nothing else. They reckon another child took home the shoes by accident. I've asked the teacher if she can try and make sure dd remembers her kit in future, perhaps double check after they get dressed. I've also told the office i'll be handing money in in future to them. Office lady said she'll have to see the head about it, it's not her place. I just shrugged and said dd isn't capable yet of looking after money.

Have written a note in dd's SALT diary to request a meeting and help with dd's 'embellishments' as they're beginning to really irritate me. I asked if we can get togetheer to devise some sort of strategy.

Also really looking forward to the Hanen programme. Will be the first time i've met other parents in RL who have a child with HFA. It'll be good to talk to people who actually understand and can talk about their own experiences/strategies.

I realise that dd is not NT at all. One of my friends has a nephew on the lower end of the spectrum. Which is why they are in denial about dd, because compared to him, she appears very much NT. They don't know much about the high functioning end at all, and have somehow convinced me that the doctors and reports and SALT have got it wrong about dd.

My parents also deny she has autism because she has such a good emotional range, she's so animated and social. She doesn't sit and rock in corners etc.


And i'm angry on dd's behalf actually at how it's become taboo to discuss her issues and autism in RL with friends and family. I hate the looks i get whenever i dare to mention her stuttering is getting worse, or that people called her a horrible name on the bus because of her stimming. I can't tell them what it's like to not be able to walk through a supermarket without getting loads of strange looks because dd will stop and sing at the top of her voice if her fave song comes on, or if she'll insist on going round the aisles and pick up items that have fallen from shelves, or when she asks all large people if they have babies in the tummy, or when she stops and flaps her arms whenever she sees a full, neat shelf of cans.

"Oh, she'll grow out of it. I did that when i was little, and i've turned out normal. She's just quirky."

No support or understanding at all. So i think i've just been trying to convince myself they're right. It's acceptable to discuss these issues with them as long as i acknowledge they're nowt to do with autism. They're just quirky things, which i should learn to laugh about. I think last night was a wake up call for me. They aren't just quirky things. They're down to her being autistc. She really is autistic. I probably won't have a normal experience with dd in the supermarket. She'll probably always get excited about seeing canned soup in neat lines, and get upset when there are gaps in between (or heaven forbid something's out of stock and there's a large space where said items should be).

I doubt i'll ever be able to just walk around the shops, holding dd's hand and having a proper conversation with her.

So i should stop watching other mums doing this with their dds. I should stop being jealous and resenting the fact (not resenting my daughter) that i'll never get to experience this.

I shouldn't get embarrased when dd pleads to go and 'see the cans' and stands there stimming for five minutes. I shouldn't feel the need to explain her actions to everyone that passes by and stares. I should accept and appreciate that dd finds so much joy out of something that many people consider to be normal.

Crying a bit here. My dd is so gorgeous and amazing. She's unique. Why would i want her to be 'normal'? I've had to go to all her meetings, appointments, panel interviews on my own. And i get nervous really easily, and intimidated. All these older, mature, professional women at these meetings telling me about my daughter, and asking me what she's like at home etc. I would love to have had someone by my side at just one of those meetings. Someone that would have given me the courage to speak up a bit more and not just go along with whatever they say. e.g. - i was concerned about dd making friends when she entered school as she was coming from a special nursery. I brought this up in the initial meeting with the school which on the panel had class teacher, head teacher, depute head teacher, 2 random people i've never met, 2 people from SALT and her pediatrician.

Their reply was 'she'll be fine. Staff will keep an eye on her."

Turns out she was fine after a few weeks of settling in, but i wish my concerns would have been taken more seriously. If i had my mum or sister there that day, i feel as if i'd have been able to be firmer.

To summarise - i suppose i've never felt able to discuss my daughter before with anyone. I've not been allowed to. I've felt forced to be embarrassed about her autism and to pretend that she's just quirky - this has been the only way i'm allowed to discuss her mannerisms in RL.

It's just awful not being able to talk about things dd does that i'm confused about or find annoying. E.g. Why does she only like leggings? Why does she say denim hurts her?

According to my mum, it's because she's fashonable... Not because she might have sensory issues.

So, yes, i think i would benefit from posting time to time on SN board. But i think i'll benefit most from being able to discuss dd's autism with real people who are in both our lives, such as grandparents. But i don't think that's going to happen any time soon tbh. Which is why i'm looking forward to meeting parents at the Hanen programme instead.

Wow, i've sort of treated this post like a journal. Didn't mean to bore you all to tears.

if you don't mind, i'll be ignoring all posts that try and diagnose me with a complex disorder such as autism, or suggest i have anger issues, or that i'm a child abuser. I find them really arrogant and stupid. I would never presume to make such suggestions based on a stranger's internet thread.

Thank you very much for the constructive replies. I feel they've really helped clear my head and realise i ought to find RL people to discuss HFA with. And it would be good for dd to mix with other children who are more like her. There's an autism club in the next town for kids. They organise days out etc. however, it's the one my friend's nephew attends. And i think it's full of kids on the lower end of the spectrum. In order to get a place, the guy running it has to come out for a home visit and see where to place your child on the waiting list. I guess they put priority on the ones who need it more - i.e. the ones with no social skills. Worth a shot, i suppose though.

FWIW - i do cuddle dd every day, as someone implied earlier i don't and thought i used cuddles as praise. No - 'bear cuddles' are used for praise. Which is a cuddle and a spin around the room.

Which i feel an overwhelming urge to give her twenty of when i see her later.

Buzzardbird Fri 01-Feb-13 10:48:58

Hi, I hope you are feeling better today? I take it dd's dad doesn't have any contact? Have you any rl friends who support you? If not then I think that group would be a good idea if only for you to have some support.
definitely use the sn section as posters will understand your situation more.
like I said earlier, I don't understand asd but I can understand your frustrations and feel for you trying to cope on your own.
Please let us know how you get on.

naughtycloud1 Fri 01-Feb-13 10:49:48

i,m glad you replied back op i felt very teary reading that but i,m afraid the internet is full of remarks terrible ones and some are useful its hard to read between the lines when people do a post people are going to jump on the bangwagon slaite a person without understanding glad you posted more of a understanding there very sorry that the op is getting judged it must be so hard for the op trying to understand a child with autism. and being thrown a life u diden,t expect try handling that on a daily basis i feel for the op where the child likes whering leggings but people won,t understand she could be hurting and the coments she is is that the child has great fashion sense that must be hard. hope you dont get put of posting again op some mumsnetters on here are a greatbuch with great advice others there following the sheep. and wearing judgypantssmile

FanFuckingTastic Fri 01-Feb-13 11:01:48

OP, all I can say is that I think I understand. My DD is different to yours, but similarly difficult sometimes, and certainly an embellisher. She makes up whole stories to explain why she is doing something naughty. And sometimes I am so mad with things I could explode and other's I just want to accept her the way she is and have other people do the same. Please use SN boards.

MooseyFate Fri 01-Feb-13 11:05:36

Another mum here with a DD who has autism. I completely get where you're coming from, please ignore all the unhelpful judgmental people who have posted on here. My DD is now 14, when she was 5 I wasn't coping well at all. I was still reeling from a fairly recent diagnosis, grieving for the 'normal' child that I had lost, and struggling to understand why on earth she did the things she did. The thing that got to me most was the relentlessness of it - day after day with never a break. It gets to the point where you have to vent, and it may seem OTT to some people but doesnt mean that you're abusing your child for God's sake. It has got easier with time - I understand her a lot better and she says that I'm her best friend. Someone upthread mentioned something about them being exotic and unique - that's exactly it - you have to start an in-depth and life-long study of your own child. My suggestion is to expect the unexpected and never compare her to other NT children her own age. She isn't going to have the same motivations or reactions as them.

I found the NAS very helpful, they have regular meetings in my area. Although I know it's difficult to get away if you work and have no support at home. Do you have a social worker? I get a couple of nights respite a month, and an outreach worker who takes her out every week, but you will need a SW in order to access this type of support. You really need to have a break from it particularly if you have little RL support, so that is something well worth looking into.

OP our local NAS group will even allow you to be involved while waiting for a diagnosis, never mind how severe child is. I agree that meeting other local parents going through the same stuff will be a real lifeline, I don't know what I'd do without it. It is also very affirming for both me and DS to see others like him, all ages and stages and know we are not alone.

Do stand firm on the dinner money with the head, they do have to alter policies to help your DD and this will be one of them it's tough if they don't like it.

Hope you have a better day with your DD today, and do pop over to the SN children board, lots of support in there. smile

StillSlightlyCrumpled Fri 01-Feb-13 11:20:35

Lowla, that was an incredibly moving post. I'm glad you're thinking of popping over to the sn board. Most of us have felt isolated at some point. I have a very supportive family, but I can clearly remember the frustration at being told 'boys just take a little longer' etc when I knew there was something very wrong.

Good luck getting some support together, it sounds as though you've had a very productive morning smile.

Have a brew now. thanks

Kiriwawa Fri 01-Feb-13 11:20:59

Your post made me cry Lowla - I also have a family who are convinced there is nothing 'wrong' with DS and it's all in his teacher's imagination.

I hope you get the support you need IRL

StabbyMacStabby Fri 01-Feb-13 11:22:37

Kiriwana: "That's how DS's school have referred to autism in relation to him and it's a term they use on the autism website so not sure why you've pulled me up on it"

Because OP said her DD has been diagnosed with HFA. High Functioning Autism doesn't indicate the presence of learning difficulties as far as I'm aware - it's the speech delay version of Asperger's Syndrome, which the DSM-IV's criteria for diagnosis includes normal to high IQ (as does HFA). I don't think your school are necessarily the authority on autistic spectrum conditions, and of course your child will not be the same as OP's child. Yours may well have learning difficulties.

NAS may well refer to learning difficulties on their website. They also refer to some co-morbid conditions and other problems associated with autism. Doesn't mean they always go together.

I don't think you should presume every person with an ASC has learning difficulties, which you seemed to be doing. Sorry if I have offended you by mentioning it.

RooneyMara Fri 01-Feb-13 11:27:05

Nice one Op - you sound like you've sorted it and given the school what for.

I would be struggling to cope in your position especially without family support. I'm really impressed.

Take care.

WilsonFrickett Fri 01-Feb-13 11:32:06

I only read the thread today but here's what I think. I think you are very angry indeed - you are angry about your DS diagnosis and you're angry with your family about the complete lack of support and understanding you and your daughter have been shown.

That is completely fine. You have a right to feel that way. Getting a diagnosis sucks. Getting told it's all a lot of nonsense by the people close to you sucks more.

However, what happened last night was that anger boiled up and became directed at your DD's behaviour. You did the right thing though, by coming and venting on here. But you MUST get some proper support and strategies in place to help you understand and work through that anger, and eventually park it in a place where it can't hurt either of you.

Does that make sense? I am truly not judging you. I have been in your shoes. But if you don't find a way to deal with your emotions they will come back and bite you in a way you don't like.

FWIW school also need to support with things like planning and organising as well as the other stuff they seem to be doing. If she needs a TA she needs a TA. The budget for that is quite simply not your concern.

The 'lying' stuff - a few things spring to mind. 1) the questions you are asking her aren't setting her up properly to give you the 'correct' answer so she's filling in the blanks (Hanen will help enormously with this)
2) was she a late talker? Do you see talking as 'a good thing'? My DS was late and we so overpraised and enthused about all his communication attempts that he now uses talking as a tool to get out of stuff he doesn't want to do.
3) Control is a really big thing for children with ASD. So she's thinking about unicorns and you interupt her with a question about her teacher and she says 'she came to school on a unicorn today.' That is essentially her attempting to control the conversation and keep it on her own agenda. She's not lying in the sense that we understand lying. She's trying to stay in control.

Anyway, this is turning into a monster post. Come over to special needs, we're very nice. But make sure you get the help you need to disappate the anger you rightly feel too, please.

Miggsie Fri 01-Feb-13 11:38:24

You need more support form the school - they are not being helpful, an ASD child needs more help and so do parents of ASD children, because they have such a tough time.

The lunch money policy is utterly stupid - and I'd tell them so.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 01-Feb-13 11:40:42

It must be sooooooooooooo frustrating that your family can't see or are in denial about her hfa.

Have you tried getting them a book about it, printing something off the internet or a leaflet or something? Im not sure which professionals you have to see in regards to your daughter but i was wondering if they might be able to help with advice or something you could pass on to your parents? They have probably seen this before.

My inlaws reacted very strangely once when i asked about one of their little relations who was delayed. They bit my head off and said there was nothing wrong with the child. There clearly are issues and the professionals agree. I don't understand those reactions.

You might need to be very firm with your parents when they say she's just quirky. Tell them to stop saying that! They don't know what they are talking about, she's been assessed by several professionals who know what they are talking about! If they continue to talk bullshit you won't want to be around them!

Pagwatch Fri 01-Feb-13 11:43:54

Great post Wilson

Ds2 is completely unreliable in his general conversation for multiple reasons, none of which are lying in the conventional sense.

I had years of not recognising that he was ill or hurt because he wouldn't tell me and if I said 'are you feeling sick Pagboy' he would say 'no. Not sick'
He had a broken collar bone and couldn't tell us for two days. He was in enormous pain but still said he was fine.

It was a mixture of anxiety and fear. He didn't want medicine and he was frightened by being in pain so wanted to shut down the conversation.

I have loads of examples of completely false responses for reasons that are everything to do with his autism and nothing to do with being a liar.

It is very hard to deal with but we have it cracked now. He is lovely. We can talk now. I just have to be very clear in how I phrase my questions.

pigletmania Fri 01-Feb-13 11:53:45

That lowla was a lovely reply yes we ave been in your position and still are. Dd 5 as ASD and dev delays and is probably on the middle range of te spectrum, very intelligent and very immature socially an emotionally though making very good progress at her Autistic school. Yes op I have been in your position, esecially when her she was a lot younger pre dx and pre interventions when her behaviour was ultra challenging. I was so angry with her as ad used to shou and scream at her (cathartic for me), since intervention and dx things have improved greatly and since going n the Hanen course ( highly recommended). Am so ashamed o how I was as a mother with my anger sues I don't want to think of those dark days and look forward be the best mum I can to both my dcs.

As dd has gotten older matured, had salt intervention her communication and understanding has improved an he behaviour has calmed down and I am actually enjoying her. I would strongly recommend te sn board they are fab on there. Yes I would ut my foot down with the school you did right to tel, them tat a 5 year old cannt be fully responsible for their dinner money nor should they be, see the hT if possible. Your dd cannot be fully responsible for her things eten she is just a very young child, te school should beare some responsibility for things going missing. You actually sound lik a lovely person who is having a very hard time right now with nobody to talk to p. I was a bit hmm at those posters who suggested you had Autism arm Chair psychology at its best. Teir are some very goo advice on here fro posters in the same position so please tak tim to read them

WilsonFrickett Fri 01-Feb-13 11:54:06

I have loads of examples of completely false responses for reasons that are everything to do with his autism and nothing to do with being a liar That's it in a nutshell Pag. So sad to think of him with a broken bone and not being able to tell you.

Pagwatch Fri 01-Feb-13 12:00:07

I felt dreadful Wilson.

What I have to do is ask a kind of trick question.
I have to say 'you are hurt Pagboy' .
If he isn't ill/sore he will say 'all better'
If he says nothing then I have to offer him options - 'is it your head or your tummy' then he tells me or let's me keep guessing until I get the right one. But it has to be either x or y. If I just say 'is it your throat' he will deny it.

It's like sodding House grin

zzzzz Fri 01-Feb-13 12:01:42

I fail to see how a Language Disorder cannot be a learning disability?? hmm.

How would it be possible for your learning not to be effected if your verbal communication is?

How can a child who has not acquired (ie learnt) language in the normal way be considered to learn normally?

For what it is worth the H in HFA refers to at least normal IQ, not how severe the presentation of ASD is. It is possible to have a very high IQ and still be very incapacitated by your disability.

OP don't give up on the walking around the super market and chatting. Children with neurological disabilities do change over time. Your parenting experience will be different not less. I would recommend posting on the sn board, your family experience is depressingly familiar and there are whole threads about finding suitable trousers/shorts etc....they will get it.


What a lovely post, its clear you really value your DD for who she is.

My 2 are dyslexic and DS2 (aged 5 but Yr1) got 0/10 for his spellings last week. He told me he forgot his score, that he got full marks, that the teacher made a mistake, that the spelling list was wrong etc. It was his way of dealing with feeling like he had not done well / made a mistake - he was telling it how he wanted it to be. I wasn't bothered at all (and had already told the school at his IEP meeting that I wasn't going to make a big deal about spellings). In his case the problem was that I hadn't supported him in the way he needed, he needs to go over things a lot for them to stick. In your DD's case, I don't think the school is supporting her in the way she needs.

I think it is really positive that you are looking for real life support. It must be hard when your family don't want to accept your DD's diagnosis.

StillSlightlyCrumpled Fri 01-Feb-13 12:04:43

grin Pagwatch. We are the same with DS2, he will appear a bit 'off' and I start from the top down to try to figure out what's wrong. It is even more complicated if it is an emotional problem, can't wait for adolescence hmm.

Lowla, I really think this will be a turning point for you. smile

WilsonFrickett Fri 01-Feb-13 12:07:08

I'm outing Pag

Seriously though, OP do you see how Pag structures her conversation to allow her DS to answer her appropriately? It's sometimes called scaffolding. Again, Hanen will really help you with it.

Kaekae Fri 01-Feb-13 12:08:16

wow, how wicked are you? She's five. I feel sad reading this to be honest.

FightingForSurvival Fri 01-Feb-13 12:11:01

Hi. Blimey, don't have time to read the whole thread but just read your mega post above. Defo post on the special needs boards and if not, just read the, life saving info in there. There are some good blogs about, Life with an Autistic Son (b's dad) is excellent, in fact I think it was that blog that inspired me to go for diagnosis, his son sounded so similar to mine. You have a diagnosis, that's great, so you don't need to doubt yourself. She has autism. You didn't cause this but you can look for ways to deal and cope and understand her. I just got my son's diagnosis today. He is same age as your daughter. My family have been shi*e but it doesn't matter. I am concentrating on him. I suspect I am a lot older than you but yes, it is daunting sitting in a room with several professionals, I am still trying to get used to it. I think it will get a tad easier after my news today. You're going through a rough time, try to find time to take stock of everything. It is bloody unfair, I feel like this too, but things are getting a bit easier. See you on the SN board :-)

zzzzz Fri 01-Feb-13 12:11:37

grin pag as House.....yes verbal detective here too. I may even have to resort to the whiteboard.

Have you read the whole thread because your comment is way off the mark.

wicked - don't be silly

Kiriwawa Fri 01-Feb-13 12:13:51

Stabby - i am using the wrong terminology then. I thought it referred to any condition/neurological disorder that meant that children needed extra support in school. I was not in any way implying anything about Lowla's DD's IQ so I apologise if that's how it read.

pigletmania Fri 01-Feb-13 12:14:33

Kaekae I think we have moved on from the original op

bringmeroses Fri 01-Feb-13 12:16:34

Ah Lowla - when I read your first post I was worried at how upset you sounded - incredulous that the school expects 5 yr olds to look after £10 let alone ones with autism - and touched that your DD draws pictures for you.

School routines can be a challenge for all parents and with your DD being the way she is it's bound to be tougher. The school should be working with you though, to be understanding and supportive of your DD so neither of you have these kind of hassles.

As for your family, if they prefer to be blind to DDs condition then that's their choice although it must be v hard for you not to be able to share things with them. Older generations especially can be unempathetic as it just wasn't as recognised when they were growing up.

shewhowines Fri 01-Feb-13 12:21:07

Haven't read it all but can understand that you are frustrated despite knowing that she can't help it. We all over react sometimes and I think that you realise that you have, in this instance.

You need to make an appointment to see the teacher. Don't leave it till easter. You need to make different arrangements for her money/belongings than the other kids. The school needs to support you with this. You also need to raise the concerns regarding the lying and get expert help in how to approach this - SALT? Explain what she says about their staff and explain your concerns regarding what she tells them of you. See if they,ve noticed it as a problem in the classroom or if it is only you she lies to. This needs to be addressed as part of her special needs. Ask for help with it even if you have to talk to the doctor.

It is frustrating but don't lose track of the fact she is only 5 and because of the AHD she can't help it.

Pagwatch Fri 01-Feb-13 12:29:56

smile we need a cry of 'differential diagnosis people' every now and again when our dc are being unfathomable.

I think my families inability to understand /talk with me or support me was a particular low.
They used to endlessly talk to me as if I was imagining things and I was forced to endlessly detail his difficulties just to try and get any of them to recognise he needed help. It was excruciatingly painful and incredibly isolating.

Lowla, I was really touched by your last post.

Reading this thread, some of the emotions you aired about your daughter were very strong, and I can see why some posters found them hard to hear. But I think it's unrealistic to expect mums to deal with this kind of situation, particularly where they are a lone parent with no family understanding of their DC's condition, without experiencing feelings like this.

For what it's worth, my DD has a disability which has made her ill almost constantly for the last two years or more, and has effected her behaviour etc hugely, as well as more obvious health. I felt similarly to you that my family didn't really understand and wanted to minimise the situation, and I've also had to fight and fight to get professional acknowledgement and diagnosis of her condition (just starting to happen).

Your last post struck a chord with me - I think when you can't talk about it fully with people, it's so lonely. And it also means that it's more difficult to work through the natural feelings of grief and anger involved in having a child with a disability.

At some points I have been SO full of rage and upset towards my daughter, and I'm sure my behaviour towards, and expectations of, her have been less than exemplary. That doesn't mean I'm a shit mum - we have all come through this together, I know that I've supported her through it incredibly well overall, and our love for each other is stronger than ever.

I'm waffling - what I'm trying to say is that your feelings aren't perhaps at an appropriate level for what's happening on paper. But they're totally appropriate for the overall situation you find yourself in.

What has helped me massively is getting more support for myself, totally separate from my daughter's support. I've found being able to talk through my feelings about the situation with a therapist has freed me to deal with things as they are, rather than having to fend off all these additional feelings alongside dealing with a difficult situation.

Apologies if this doesn't ring true for you at all - my DD's issues are different, and my life isn't yours. But I wanted to say very clearly that I think these strong feelings go with the territory, but sometimes need some, erm, "channelling" grin

Take care of yourself.

Flobbadobs Fri 01-Feb-13 12:32:40

Lowla have been lurking on here since your OP and I think you got an undeserved pasting from some people. I've had some good advice myself on the SN boards and we are (still) waiting for a referral for DS as a result of the reassurance I got over there.
And FWIW, our school also expects the children to hand in dinner money to the teacher after registration. It goes in the reading bags, the children are remonded to take it out and it's collected in then taken to the office by the special helpers (the children chosen that day). This happens from reception upwards. I went to the same school many years ago and the same happened.

MammaTJ Fri 01-Feb-13 12:38:24

You might do better to post in special needs or even in chat if you need support with something like this again. AIBU is a bit of a boxing ring. grin

I am in the process of tryign to get a diagnosis of ADHD for my DD age 7 but keep being told she is just lively. Well you jolly well look after her when she is prowling round the house at 3 am then!!

OP I think your last post was just brilliant and hopefully it will serve to make people think in the future before throwing around a diagnosis!

Last night I read the beginning of the thread and was appalled.

I have read the whole thing now, and OP, I'm so sorry for you. You have so little real life support. You have carried this by yourself for too long and the stress on you is immense. I'm thinking this is why your feelings over this latest incident are so intense.(Even if you think they're not!)

Are there any support groups or parenting courses locally you could join? You need to have somewhere to vent andsometimes just be able to nod and say "Me too!" I have a 5 year old DS with ASD and I find it tough enough even though I have supportive family on side.

I have found the SN board very helpful, even though I don't post on there very often, I lurk and find the solidarity very reassuring.

CinnabarRed Fri 01-Feb-13 12:42:34

Hugs all round to those in need.

Lowla, you sound like a fantastic parent. When I read your thread last night I really didn't understand you, and agreed with posters who said that you were the problem. Your last post has forced me to completely revise my opinion. I'm sorry I doubted you, and I wish you and your DD every happiness in the future.

AudrinaAdare Fri 01-Feb-13 12:52:15

DS has HFA and attends a school for children with learning disabilities. He is 5.5 and has a reading age of 8.9. No problems with his level of learning in any subject, however his autism means that he will not be able to access or use his intelligence if certain things are not happening.

There was a study done which showed that social skills are a much more important factor in determining life chances than IQ. This was across the population so has a massive impact on people with autism in particular. My son's learning needs are social not academic and he is impaired in that respect.

OPs DD sounds incredibly able but she needs to have a few issues addressed in an appropriate way and perhaps this organisational fail on the part of the school might be a symptom that the overall level of understanding of her condition might not be as it should be.

Narked Fri 01-Feb-13 12:52:43

I'm sorry you got flamed and had some very unhelpful responses.

I'm glad you had a chance to get out some of the stuff you haven't been able to talk about.

Catchingmockingbirds Fri 01-Feb-13 12:58:18

stabby my son is high functioning. He also has a low IQ and his cognitive processing ability is on the 13th percentile. He has a learning difficulty.

StabbyMacStabby Fri 01-Feb-13 13:08:39

Kiriwawa, no worries, your definition is what I would call Special Educational Needs but I'm probably incorrect in that.

I suspect that zzzzz thinks I'm very wrong (although no names were named). Although I didn't actually say that "High" referred to severity, I said it referred to a normal or higher IQ which was my understanding from the DSM-IV. I understand that the impairments of autism make for a great many difficulties, including academic learning as well as day-to-day living.

It's a very emotive subject, tbf. sad I don't want to offend anyone. It's hard enough as it is.

StabbyMacStabby Fri 01-Feb-13 13:11:49

Oh crap,completely wrong! <hides in cupboard>
Apologies all round. Really. sad Sorry.

AudrinaAdare Fri 01-Feb-13 13:14:09

I wasn't offended at all Stabby smile just having a discussion and thinking about DS' needs led me to wonder if the OP's school understands.

BinksToEnlightenment Fri 01-Feb-13 13:26:39

I haven't posted yet. I've only read your replies, op.

I think, to be brutally honest, your replies come across as defensive and a little aggressive.

But - big, big but - I would be exactly the same if I were you. I would get annoyed over the things you have. Not because they're annoying in themselves, but because they're happening over and over again and you're powerless to stop it. It's frustrating. I think you were remarkably controlled because when I got myself alone, I would have punched something. To have someone keep losing the nice things you've bought = really frustrating. To have someone consistently lie to you = really frustrating.

Also, I would have gotten cross at everyone making accusations at me. It's bloody horrible having a whole thread turn against you. I don't think anyone does themselves any favours by becoming defensive - but it's really hard not to. To have a whole mass of people turn against you is upsetting; doubly so when it's about your parenting.

Well, I just wanted to say that. I wanted to be another voice amongst the many to be on your side.

Kiriwawa Fri 01-Feb-13 13:32:42

Oh don't feel bad Stabby - the whole thing's a minefield. I'm glad we have it resolved smile

skullcandy Fri 01-Feb-13 13:42:36

i have a high IQ. But no qualifications, i found the non-structure of a-levels too difficult to cope with, and at the time i didnt have the learning to implement my own routine/structure to support myself, so while i have 11 GCSE's, i have no A levels or Higher Ed qualifications.

Lowla Dont despair with DD, as she gets older some of the behaviour will lessen if she can learn to analyze why and and how she does things and bring in her own strategies.

I stim, i flap, i get pleasure out of feeling certain fabrics, and seeing certain things.. but now im in my 30s ive managed to LEARN how to appear 'normal' in general every day society so i get less stares... and i've learned to recognise impending meltdowns and panic attacks so i can hold them off or remove myself from a situation until they're done with.

Im not saying she WILL, because HFA is a spectrum in its own right, but if she's intelligent then chances are it will come in time. smile

HeyHoHereWeGo Fri 01-Feb-13 14:37:01

Has your dd seen an OT - Occupational Therapist?

Is she clumsy?
Can she do up a zip?
Can she button her clothes?
Can she hold her pencil correctly?
Can she lick a ball?
Can she use scissors?
Can she brush her hair neatly?
Can she brush her teeth?
Can she stay between the lines when colouring?

ie, does she have Dyspraxia

People with dyspraxia lose things easily and tend to be very disorganised.
It is often co-morbid with HFA

Time for a mutildisciplinary review?

mamamibbo Fri 01-Feb-13 14:44:50

our school tells you off for going into school with money, i refuse,sorry, my son has asd and he has guitar lessons at £22 a term and i recently had to pay £85 for a trip, no chance is he carrying that

as for the lyingm he has a problem taking responsibilty of his actions so would blame me, i explained this to the teachers and they have seen it for themselves now so i get letters etc posted because i wasnt getting any

mamamibbo Fri 01-Feb-13 14:46:06

and no matter how much you understand its not their fault its still bloody frustrating!

StuntGirl Fri 01-Feb-13 15:13:05

I'm glad you came back lowla and got to get that off your chest.

Wilson's post at 11:32:06 is very helpful and insightful. I hope you can take some comfort and advice from other parents who've been where you are OP. You're not as alone as you think you are, there is help out there. I hope you can get the support you and your daughter need.

Zzzzz... Ds2 is severely speech delayed.

He also has a high IQ, above average language comprehension, is way ahead of other children his age in terms of numeracy and is universally described as bright and communicative.

He just can't speak very clearly as he has verbal dyspraxia.

Speech delay is not an indication of learning disability.

zzzzz Fri 01-Feb-13 17:08:38

Speech is not the same as language. If he had significantly below average language comprehension it would significantly impact his learning, but he could still have a very hi IQ and be very "bright", ahead in maths and communicative.

insanityscratching Fri 01-Feb-13 18:11:01

Dd's expressive language is amazing she has the speech of a newsreader, her vocabulary is vast, she uses very sophisticated grammar correctly. Her communication is significantly impaired though as her receptive levels are significantly below average and she has poor processing skills even though she is exceptionally able academically she finds it very difficult to answer questions that aren't phrased in a way that prompts her to give the right answer and under pressure even then she will struggle.
Ds at the same age who had only acquired speech at age seven had a much smaller gap between expressive and receptive and could when he chose communicate better.
In many ways ds got far more support as people made allowances for his limited speech, dd has a much harder time as people are confused when this obviously very able child struggles to answer simple questions.

minkembra Fri 01-Feb-13 18:11:15

Hats off to you lowla. have to admit they i spent some of the day wondering how those super parents who professed to be so worried and sad for your daughter thought they were helping by putting on their judgy pants and using their pointy finger super power.
And their I would never ever even ever do x y z. Well good for them. (she said half way into getting into her judgy pants)

hope the school does agree to allowing you to drop in money and that you find the trainers

hope that nothing i said offended you.

My ex bf's son was diagnose with autism as a young lad but now no one would ever know as when he hit puberty he just seemed to find social interaction, which was his main issue, became easier. ididn't know him too well when he was younger but the one thing i did learn is that with ASD not to make assumptions about one kid based on another. my ex used to say it was a deck of cards and everyone got a different hand.

I guess we all change in various ways as we grow up.

Think you are very brave.

VicarInaTutu Fri 01-Feb-13 23:59:11

i know this is AIBU but the OP has had a needlessly hard time here - try walking a mile and all that. my son is 21 with ASD/dyspraxia/dyslexia.
he has ASD but he does and can lie! he told me he was staying with a pal in Kent and actually went to bloody Seattle!! to meet a girl!!! i didnt find out for 3 months. He is at uni and has an above average IQ. He also gets fantasy and dreams mixed up with reality.
and he lies. he has ASD. some of the theorising on here is laughable. And i have ranted and raved more than once about him - i love him dearly, im his bloody biggest advocate, but that doesnt mean that sometimes i dont crack.
Living with autism is bloody hard work at times. I doubt that i will ever manage to live with him again because he drives me absolutely insane - but i will never stop helping him, never stop loving him, never stop fighting his corner.

Op i hope you are ok. I posted earlier up thread and said you need to find ways to work things - that still stands and school should be helping you to make life easier - i also know that when DS was at primary that didnt happen either....the battles i had with primary school were terrible. i took him out for 3months once....
stick to your guns and enlist the help of anyone who can advise such as OT etc.....they used to come into school to meetings to advise teachers etc on how to deal with DS. Work around problems but be prepared to have things lost on a weekly basis for ever more....DS is 21 and has lost every coat i have ever bought now we get Tesco specials instead of expensive stuff.

MerryCouthyMows Sat 02-Feb-13 00:49:41

Pag, I too was Lowla for a while. In fact, I am Lowla for the third time at the moment. I was Lowla when I first realised the extent of my DD's issues. I was Lowla when I was told my DS2 had the same (but to an even greater extent) issues.

And I am currently Lowla again, trying to get my head around the fact that at the same time as my 2yo DS2 is starting the assessment process for Autism, the school have asked the EP to see my DS1 as they believe that my DS1 may have Aspergers.

I'm Lowla too. I'm getting irrationally angry with DS1 when he takes things too literally. I'm getting teary a lot more than usual (I'm not usually a 'crier' but even a single rude comment from one of the DC's can reduce me to tears).

I'm not getting my DC's to school on time, because DS3 is also hyperactive and NEVER. FUCKING. SLEEPS. So I struggle to get out of bed at 6.45am.

I'm struggling to pick the older DS's up from school on time, because I have 1001 appointments that always overrun by at least an hour. This week I had 12 appointments in 5 days. Last week I had 8. Next week I have 15 fucking appointments, I have no idea HOW to pick my DC's up on time, and I have nobody to fucking HELP.

I don't need someone to talk to - I have MN for that. What I need is somebody to do the practical shit like the school run, because I haven't yet worked out how to split myself in half or clone myself in order to be in two places at once.

And my washing machine broke this week. I have NO money to get it fixed or buy a new one. I can't hand wash because of my joint problems, DD's bed wetting and DS2's soiling.

Do I understand how Lowla is feeling? Damn straight I do. It's just so fucking relentless, and I'm going to be doing this without an end in sight. It's not like I know that my DC's will all have moved out by X date - more than one of my DC's may NEVER cope with living independently.

So maybe right now, while I acknowledge that it isn't RIGHT to feel like this, it doesn't mean I'm a fucking saint just because I SHOULD be.

I get frustrated. I get tired. I get exasperated because it feels currently like my DC's are tag teaming me with meltdowns, one after the other without a break.

It's NOT having 'anger issues', it's trying to manage every emotion, all at once, day in and day out, relentlessly, without a break, without a RL support network, and not always being able to do that INTERNALLY.

So, me and Lowla appear to be more HUMAN than some of you other posters, in as much as our internal feelings aren't always appropriate, but we keep them internal / on MN, but we HAVE those feelings.

Obviously those of you that are dealing with a DC with Autism, with very little support, as a Lone Parent, are Superhuman to never even be internally frustrated, angry, upset, or thinking inappropriate thought.

Sorry I don't measure up either!

mathanxiety Sat 02-Feb-13 03:42:07

If you don't have an anger problem then how have you bottled things up for two years and felt as if it had all come out yesterday?

Keeping a lid on anger is an anger problem.
You were 'bloody furious' yesterday and you stated very bluntly and unequivocally that your DD had lied to you.

I can't stop crying! I'm actually shaking with anger.

There is anger that all parents feel once a week every year for six years and there is this ^^

I was telling her off all round ASDA after school while buying new trainers and was getting some dirty looks off people.

We always get strange looks in ASDA! usually i just smile and stop and explain dd has autism, which is why she's behaving 'strangely' but yesterday i couldn't be arsed. I was controlled and firm when telling off dd. "Don't run away, dd." "Stop running away, DD", "Come here right now and try these shoes on, DD" "It's not my fault they don't fit properly, or feel the same as the old ones, DD, you need new trainers." Hardly screaming. So please don't make such assumptions.

You are contradicting yourself here.

Are you still reading?
Everything in your posts bespeaks a person who is facing enormous problems on her own with no support, dealing with the most stupid school setup imaginable, the most obtuse parents and family a mother could hope not to have -- everything in your thread screams 'I am alone and drowning.'

Your response has been to bottle it all up and then explode. This is understandable, but there is a better way, and in order to help yourself avoid stress related illness and be the best advocate your DD could possibly have, you need to find that better way and get help with the unhealthy way you deal with anger (and grief, and stress and frustration and everything else that comes with the particular territory you are dealing with).

lougle Sat 02-Feb-13 08:23:54

mathanxiety, I don't have an anger problem but there are times when I feel in despair when my children do things and don't seem to care. Ok, it isn't as extreme as the OP expresses, but it feels pretty awful.

Lowla please come to the SN section. We understand and we might be able to help a little.

So you get DLA for your DD? If so you might be able to access some clubs for her, etc.

birdofthenorth Sat 02-Feb-13 09:29:10

Haven't read the whole thread but OP, our DS with autism went through a particularly frustrating phase at age 5 which involved huge physical tantrums and generally making getting from A to B pretty difficult. He soon grew out of it- I wonder if having started school (much more structures than nursery) made him aware he was different for the first time?

As an aside he is now 10 and still can't really be trusted to carry money, though of course we keep trying to increase his independence. A penny and a twenty pound note are the same to him.

TheLightPassenger Sat 02-Feb-13 15:57:02

Hi Lowla, glad you have put some pressure on school to support your daughter better.

Insanity and Pag have described very well why a child with language/social difficulties might seem to be lying when they are masking their difficulties with conversation.

If you are NW based, then feel free to PM me to meet up for coffee one day if you fancy - I have an 8 year old with language delay/asd traits, who didn't start speaking beyond single words and echolalia till he was 4.

FanFuckingTastic Sat 02-Feb-13 20:39:20

I experience anger in this form as a part of depression and anxiety OP, as soon as I take the medication it stops being so difficult to manage and I get angry very rarely. Anger is also heightened by lack of sleep and lots of stressors, which is quite common if you have a child with behaviour special needs I've found.

Two avenues of self help would be to see your GP and just check that it might not be worth trying some medication if things are all getting on top of you, they give me a balance of emotion rather than the overwhelming scream of emotions I have without them. And perhaps find a way of getting some good rest periods on a regular basis, whether it be family and friends/homestart/social services etc. Having my carer and knowing I can hand her over at 7:30am and just sleep for hours is one of the things that keeps me going through the worst nights.

You sound lonely, I hope you've found a place in SN? Sometimes I feel completely alone in the world, so I am glad to have mumsnet here for these times.

changeforthebetter Sat 02-Feb-13 20:54:27

She's 5 FGS. I get the frustration. There's no spare money chez Change I am keen for the DCs to become independent In lots of ways (am LP) but you have to manage your expectations a bit, love. I hand over the dinner money (DD5 too young and DD7 weight of the world on her shouldershmm)

mathanxiety Sun 03-Feb-13 01:48:58

Lougle, it's the bottling things up for two years and feeling something had been released that is the problem. Bottling it is never good. There are healthy ways to express it (expressing it is not a problem necessarily) that won't end in damage to her or to her DD.

Anna1976 Sun 03-Feb-13 03:40:28

Lowla i hope things are looking more manageable - sounds like you did the right thing going into the school on Friday. I hope the school, the SALT, the ed psych, and possibly your GP are all helpful - you have had a lot on your shoulders.

I'd like to second skullcandy's post of Fri 01-Feb-13 13:42:36, to say that while your DD may never be NT and may need all sorts of help with adjustments, if those adjustments are in place to some degree, then your DD won't be held back. For one thing, she's got a lovely Mum who supports and helps her, which is worth more than anything.

But also - I have known lots of people with HFA who have turned out to have highly productive and happy lives. Someone I went to school with, who stimmed and hand-flapped, and whose mother also has quite pronounced HFA - they have both had a tough time over the years - ended up getting the highest marks in the country (not the UK) at the end of school, and has now become a world-famous climate scientist. More to the point, she's happy and living a fulfilled life. As is another friend who first became a high-flying professor, then became a top-level government advisor. And another friend who had HFA and severe anxiety, who got a first in physics at Cambridge and has now become an extraordinarily talented artist. I have HFA, parents with HFA, and ok my life's currently a bit complicated - but I have managed to have a good career, I am autonomous, and happiness will come back once i get back into the world again.

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