In wishing dd was less chavvy?

(635 Posts)
HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 09:39:02

Went to parents evening last night at 14 yr old dd's school, and noticed that some of dd's teachers were doing double takes at us. Basically because we are obviously very middle-class (which round here means BBC accent, no visible tattoos or bad hair extensions), whereas dd presents herself as an out and out chav.

When I imagined one day having a rebellious teenager I imaged her as a pretty goth, or something along those lines. You know - shaved bits on her head, intense hair colours, lots of black, chunky boots, and I smugly thought I'd be really tolerant and approving, never commenting on my teen's dress sense.

This is dd's ACTUAL look: half an inch of orange foundation, thick, thick eyeliner and six layers of mascara. likethis Hair straightened to within an inch of its life and coated with product. Massive cleavage (at 14 she's wearing an e-cup bra and will not put the buggers away), sagging tracksuit bottoms (with a bit of belly hanging out over the top), huge trainers.

She has a strong Sarf London accent. As far as food choices go, she turns her nose up at the food I make and spends her pocket money at the fried chicken shop or buying kebabs. Will only eat plastic white bread. No vegetables. Spends her lunch money on things like Panda Pops and Red Bull.

She doesn't read anything except Bella and Best magazines (I'm an English graduate and teacher so this is like a knife to my heart), and listens to the cheesiest, naffest, mainstream R&B. She has no hobbies and no interest in what is going on in the world. She's already told me she wants to have a baby young. A brown baby. Her friends mostly have mothers who had them at 16 or 17 and she sees teenage parenthood as normal and not really a problem. We live in the borough with one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates in London, and she knows girls only a bit older than her who are having children.

Most of her teachers (weirdly) find her charming but they are also exasperated by her determination to fail academically, despite our support at home and her very good brain. Last night I wanted to disappear through a hole in the floor while her maths teacher talked about her constant chatting in class, her failure to hand in any homework, her bringing fucking SNOWBALLS in to the lesson and then having a strop when she was told off. She does the 'yeh but no but' thing when she's challenged about her behaviour - suddenly speeds her speech up so it's practically incomprehensible, blinds you with a loud flurry of complicated but intrinsically feeble excuses: "Yeh but, you said, yeh, that if I did last week's homework, yeh, like Kelly goes, whatever, he never set no homework, and you didn't tell me to write it down so it's YOUR fault, and and I'm not taking the blame for you not doing that, and Charmaine said, like, we didn't have to hand it in until Wednesday, but I was off Wednesday and you didn't tell me...." etc, etc, etc.

Last night she threw a massive strop as we were leaving the house to go to parents evening because I was wearing a Hobbs coat, DD said I looked too posh and would embarrass her.

I've n/c for this post by the way, because I feel embarrassed to describe myself as middle-class (although I am - privately educated, dad was a senior diplomat) and because it seems so mean to describe my dd as a chav - but it's inescapable that she has adopted a chav lifestyle and way of presenting herself.

And it's REALLY challenging my ability to be accepting of her as a blossoming adult that she's adopted a lifestyle which happens to embody everything I dislike about modern culture. And saying that makes me feel like a pathetic old git, but it's true. I could take her being an eco rebel, a punk, a goth, an emo. But a chav? It's gutting!

AnnIonicIsoTronic Thu 31-Jan-13 09:43:42

grin shock sad

I feel for you. No advice I'm afraid.

<off to take my pre-teen Dd to save the turtles or
Similar to try to instil a grungy Eco warrior type of alternativeness>

Is moving house to change friendship groups too drastic?

Cherriesarelovely Thu 31-Jan-13 09:44:03

Sorry OP, I agree that would be really annoying but you do write well, it was hilarious to read! Is she willingly trying to fail to fit in with her friends?

AnnIonicIsoTronic Thu 31-Jan-13 09:44:16

And blush

How can I forget blush!!

WorraLiberty Thu 31-Jan-13 09:45:37

You had me until the 'brown baby' line - well done.

So basically she embarrasses you and you embarrass her.

You don't like her style and she doesn't like yours.

You're both gutted...but you can't choose your family so you're stuck with each other.

HTH

smornintime Thu 31-Jan-13 09:45:38

Maybe she has managed to pick the image that bothers you the most! I'm sorry but I had to chuckle at your link and also at 'brown baby' blush
Have you shown her any Vicky Pollard or Waynetta Slob sketches? Do you think she would get it?

mrsjay Thu 31-Jan-13 09:46:52

your daughter isnt a chav your daughter is 14
Im sorry she doesn't fit into your image of her being some cool indie kid it is who she is, get on top of her homework perhaps get her to tone her make up down and get on top of her behaviour be embarrassed you should be her behaviour sounds shocking.
this is nothing to do with being chavvy imo it has everything to do with behaviour posh kids can just be as arsey as poor kids

PseudoBadger Thu 31-Jan-13 09:47:12

I did similar. My parents felt similar. I actually asked them to sell their house so we could move to the council estate where all my friends lived and we could live in a flat.

YANBU, I'd be gutted too. Very entertaining post too I have to say, though I feel your pain - my 16-y-o niece is just how you describe your DD, minus aspiring to be a teen mum.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 09:48:05

Our clever teenagers can always come up with new ways to alienate and infuriate us!

grin

The only positive aspect of this is that she is challenges teachers' preconceptions fairly regularly by occasionally making really thoughtful and incisive comments (in between long bouts of stupidity) in lessons, which keeps them on their toes professionally speaking!

AudrinaAdare Thu 31-Jan-13 09:48:20

Teenagers like to rebel against their parents. The answer is to emulate Waynetta Slob yourself in dress, speech and attitudes.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 09:48:50

PseudoBadger grin

AudrinaAdare Thu 31-Jan-13 09:51:55

You have my sympathy though. DD is going the way of TOWIE at just twelve. The "we done maths" and "we was in class" do my head in the most.

Hamishbear Thu 31-Jan-13 09:53:01

Assuming this isn't a wind up when she's all grown up she'll probably be exactly like you only more middle class .

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 31-Jan-13 09:53:28

Oh OP you are definitely not being unreasonable. I also expect my children to rebel and be punk, goth, gosh even emo would be ok, but I hadn't thought about them becoming chavs shock.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 09:53:34

"get on top of her homework perhaps get her to tone her make up down and get on top of her behaviour be embarrassed you should be her behaviour sounds shocking"

Get her to tone her make up down? How do you do that then?

I agree that bad behaviour in class is unacceptable. I'm on to it. Really. DD's tutor is sick of the sound of my voice I'm on the phone to the school that often, and I think she's sending my regular emails asking for meetings about dd straight to her spam box.

There's only so much you can do as a parent if you have a very strong willed teen. And we're doing all of it.

This has got to be a joke? The Brown baby comments did it for me (no idea why a capital b, presumably she won't be giving birth to a sibling of Paddington).
Anyway, be the accepting and tolerant parent you always planned on being.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 31-Jan-13 09:56:39

Get her to tone her make up down? How do you do that then?

With a trovel? grin

BambieO Thu 31-Jan-13 09:59:18

Brown baby! grin as a 'brown baby' myself at least she isn't racist to add into all of her 'flaws' you have detailed so entertainingly snort at the hair

Ds 1 was the same at that age (except for the baby thing, makeup and cleavage) I don't know what the accent was they used, think they made it up!

At 18 he's back to normal.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:00:37

Audrina - my favourite is 'We're going London', or 'We're going McDonalds'.

Should add, dd is mixed race and she leavens her Sarf London chav style with a sprinkling of the most objectionable aspects of black London street culture. Like an enthusiasm for hideously sexist music with loads of swearing and explicit descriptions of sex. She talks about other girls being 'skets'. I'm a feminist and this sort of talk brings me out in a rash. I've tried talking to her about how wrong it is to have double standards of behaviour around sex, how cruel and wrong it is to describe other women as sluts, ho's and bitches, but she's having none of it. She thinks I'm old-fashioned. sad

Goodwordguide Thu 31-Jan-13 10:01:51

Pick your battles I think - school work, home work etc non-negotiable (presumably she must be getting some sort of allowance to pay for the make-up/mobile/music that could be a bargainng tool?).

Make-up etc I think I would let go - isn't that classic teenage girl behaviour?

We usually turn out like our parents in the end, whether we mean to or not - not sure if that is a good thing or not anyway.

mathsconundrum Thu 31-Jan-13 10:02:38

She sounds as if she likes to be popular and wouldn't like not to fit in.Therefore if you had the means to pay for private she'd probably start to fit in there. If you can persuade her to do her A levels and go to university she'll be fine chav or not.

BambieO Thu 31-Jan-13 10:02:42

I actually do feel for you, that does sound pretty painful, it is a pet hate of mine too blush

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:03:46

She's really racist - against ginger people. sad Her favoured term of abuse for a boy she doesn't like the look of it 'he's really white you know!'.

If she's describing a boy she see's as 'fit', the description will always start, 'He's mixed race, really buff'. I take some comfort from the fact that she likes men who are similar to her dad (who's great!).

purrpurr Thu 31-Jan-13 10:05:07

Isn't this normal to a certain extent? I used to drive my parents crackers with my dress sense (none) and manner of speaking. 'Like' appeared before and after most words, until my Dad started replying with "So are you like hungry, or are you actually hungry?" or "You can't like not be arsed, you're either arsed or you're not." My Mum always played the 'girls don't swear' (or whistle) card which made me swear initially to infuriate her and then simply as a way of saying, I'm a person, not a gender, stop making me hoover everything, I wanna go hang out with Dad. My Dad wasn't too fussed about the peppering of bad language, he just wanted my sentences to be constructed properly. It's stood me in good stead. I'm now in my late 20s and I speak good, innit.

Also, the pancake make up is a phase. Luckily for me, I only discovered make up when I was 16 and had moved out. I probably had the free time for it, not having to spend all my time cleaning anymore. Ah, the joys.

Not sure about the brown baby bit though, I never wanted that.

Morloth Thu 31-Jan-13 10:05:44

It works the other way you know.

I am a bogan, a proper paid up pig shooting, beer swilling BOGAN.

DS1 plays the goddamned flute.

purrpurr Thu 31-Jan-13 10:06:26

Cringe. Not to say that a brown baby would be a bad thing. For anyone. I just meant I didn't want A baby.

Console yourself she'll look back and cringe grin
And her children will always like honey...

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:07:03

Goodword - I have totally given up on the make-up, hair and clothes. Her choice, her body.

School work is a different matter, but it's so gutting that she's aligned herself with so many other girls who are really unambitious.

Yesterday I found myself promising her a holiday with a friend in Magaluf if she gets A* in her GCSE maths and English. (she's been watching the Magaluf Weekender and thinks it looks like the sort of place she'd thrive!).

PseudoBadger Thu 31-Jan-13 10:07:29

I definitely look back and cringe!

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 10:07:52

If this is true, send her to boarding school immediately.

AudrinaAdare Thu 31-Jan-13 10:07:53

angry at "we're going town", she does that too.

I can just see them in a few years time at their interview: "I wanna go Cambridge 'cos..."

Pilfette Thu 31-Jan-13 10:07:58

Hortensia if you ever find a way to effectively deal with this "I've tried talking to her about how wrong it is to have double standards of behaviour around sex, how cruel and wrong it is to describe other women as sluts, ho's and bitches, but she's having none of it. She thinks I'm old-fashioned" please let me know I'll pay £££s. Out of all the things my eldest does, this winds me up the most and is the one thing that I can't not react to. I suspect that's why she does it wink

She has, however, awesome and comical doublethink in that if she perceives something as being clearly sexist, i.e. younger DD moaning that she can't "do" physics because she's "a girl" she's on her like a rat out of a drain! So I live in hope...

I don't understand most of the terms on this thread. I think I must accept my youth has gone for good .

Dotty342kids Thu 31-Jan-13 10:09:13

This really made me laugh, sorry OP!
It's be my worst nightmare too but I can only think she's doing her best to rebel against her educated, liberal, feminist mum.
Blooming exasperating though and not sure how you're going to prevent the "brown baby / teen mum" thing, short of locking her up till she's 21.
I have no words of wisdom other than to keep on letting her know that she's loved, but that if she f***s up, you'll come down on her hard!

Locketjuice Thu 31-Jan-13 10:09:25

gringringrin

Your clearly not laughing.. But fuck it was funny to read!

Just hope and pray it a phase, my neice went from being a save the animals type to telling me dis boi iz bare peng yhhh and naaaa man I ain't doing it... I did remind her she hasn't suddenly got some urban roots and the whole family were laughing at her new 'accent' she still does it but does tone it down compared to what I see on her Facebook! hmm

feelokaboutit Thu 31-Jan-13 10:09:32

Hi Hortensia, your post made me laugh as well (sorry)!

My kids all still at primary school so still "innocent" but I feel some of your pain as I do wonder what will happen in the future. I already feel like an out of touch flintstone and worry how much worse this might get.

Totally sympathise over the "going London" - ugh hate that and the few times it comes out of my dcs' mouths I tell them to repeat the sentence with "to" in it. Same for "isn't it" at the end of sentences which should have, "don't they" or "aren't they" or whatever. Sounds (and is I think) like a really lazy way of speaking. The worst thing is that some (though a minority) of the staff at their school use "isn't it" and "going toilet" so what hope do we have against the rising tide of lazy speak!!!!

Anyway, rant over. If the culture in your area is predominantly a "teenage pregnancy" one, is there any chance of you moving?????

I do, however, agree with the poster who said you have to pick your battles.

BambieO Thu 31-Jan-13 10:10:16

Oh no, that's not good, are you sure she just isn't attracted to people with ginger hair or is she actually abusive about them?

Actually its marmalade innit? (see what I did there?) . Pooh likes honey

DonderandBlitzen Thu 31-Jan-13 10:13:12

I think you are winding us up because of the "brown baby" bit which i think you got from Waynetta Slob rather than your daughter. grin

She has a strong Sarf London accent. Well she will do if you live in South London

Sorry, your post made me laugh. As a "pretty goth" myself (half my head shaved, it's bright blue etc etc) I am now terrified that my DD will not grow up listening to Metallica or sharing my AWESOME style....

I don't know what advice to give I'm afraid....I'd say "she'll grow out of it"....but I'm 29 and still spend far too much time on my hair.

Oh and I lived in SE London for 4 years....I HATE HATE HATE that accent....what is it exactly?

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:13:43

"Oh no, that's not good, are you sure she just isn't attracted to people with ginger hair"

Well now you say it, the one musician she does like who doesn't fit with the rest of her tastes (L'il Wayne etc) is Ed Sheeran!

magimedi Thu 31-Jan-13 10:14:11

You write so well, Hortensia & I was amused.

But what would worry me most is the teenage pregnancy & wanting a baby early. Make up, dress, speech etc don't matter too much & can (& probably will) be dropped in a year or so. But if she gets pregnant...............

I really think I'd move if I possibly could.

DelphineD Thu 31-Jan-13 10:15:07

Haha, I was a bit like this as a teenager. I was embarrassed that my parents were posh and wished they would wear tracksuits and talk in dialect to fit in with the people at school. Forget about the image, dress and speech and just focus on her schoolwork. I never stopped working hard, got good exam results, went off to uni, started moving with a different sort of crowd and that was that. I think peers have much more influence during the teenage years but as you grow up you 'become' your parents. I have grown up to be as middle class and snooty as my mother, if that makes you feel any better smile

Oh and when I say "that accent" I mean the faux patois type accent that is adopted by the Yoot Dem, not the typical SE London accent, that my DH rather charmingly uses grin

ISeeSmallPeople Thu 31-Jan-13 10:16:32

Finishing school grin
Lessons in deportment, etiquette & a season as a chalet girl should do it. smile

I would copy her. Start wearing her track suits & make up, & she will beg to borrow your Hobbs coat.

DS, 9, has started saying everything is sick. This is a good thing apparently. No longer since I started saying the same to his friends, but sometimes replacing it with vomit instead. "hello darling, did you & George have a vomit time?"

FirstTimeForEverything Thu 31-Jan-13 10:16:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 10:17:07

I think you should put her in care.
It's the only answer.

IWishIWasSheRa Thu 31-Jan-13 10:17:10

You have cracked me up!
I don't know what to advise re school but but when I was a teen my mum decided that coffee shimmer lipstick and cakey foundation were not the way forward so she took me to Allders and got the Clinique girl to do my make up all classy like! She then bought the blusher & foundation and showed me the light (whilst slagging off girls with tide marks, spider lashes and brown lip liner with concealer on their lips) subconsciously I got the message and changed the war paint!
Clothes- accidentally bleach trackie bottoms and replace with designer jeans and ballet pumps (she only needs one pair!) the only way forward is replacing the crap for something to show off. shameless
Cleavage- good for her bit jealous

cjdamoo Thu 31-Jan-13 10:17:14

grin

Theicingontop Thu 31-Jan-13 10:17:51

Ouuuch.

I've worried about this myself. We live in a very white neighbourhood, and when I was growing up here, the only mixed race boy in school was the most popular because 'black people are hard innit'. I want to move before DS gets the idea that he's 'hard' because he's black, and gets the same ego as the boy in my school, starts wearing his jeans below his backside and saying cuz.

I think you're doing quite well tolerating it, and seem to be aware that any opinion you may have towards her appearance/attitude will fall on deaf ears because you're 'old' and don't understand 'today's yoof kultcha'.

I imagine she'll be a bit embarrassed come two or three years, when she sees similarly dressed 14 year olds finding their way. Just bide your time.

CremeEggThief Thu 31-Jan-13 10:18:46

thanks for cheering me up and making me smile this morning smile.

IWishIWasSheRa Thu 31-Jan-13 10:19:15

Oh erm.... Absolutely agree with all the other posters. School work and no babies definitely more of a priority.

runs like fuck

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:20:05

DD's teenage culture challenge is making me massively appreciate my autistic child's (dd's younger brother) complete and UTTER disregard for what other people think of him and how he presents himself.

Mosman Thu 31-Jan-13 10:20:29

She'd be in a Catholic boarding school by now if she was mine

noddyholder Thu 31-Jan-13 10:21:08

I would change schools! This could alter her whole life if she follows the crowd and 16/18 and doesn't continue her education in order to pursue babies etc

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 10:22:08

Me too noddy

I am AMAZED at the difference between various children at various schools. Makes ALL the diff.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 10:22:18

Also lolling like a drain because my WC brahn babies wouldn't dream of using street talk in my presence.

As a side, and I may get flamed for this but...

My DS1 has always hung about with the more affluent, mc, indie crowd. This has caused us no end of problems. Too much money, not enough boundaries, kids who find slumming it exciting but have parents who can buy them out of trouble.

Seriously, the times I have wanted to shake their parents and kick them up their Laissez faire backsides

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 10:23:02

To be completely honest, I literally (and I mean literally) couldn't cope with an orange teenager and attendant speech and accessories. And I am sarf London born n bred.

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 10:24:24

yy mrs dev. Need to find the nice polite geeky kids who want to do well and think it's cool to do so.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:24:42

Theicing - I have two younger boys. The 9 year old has currently aligned himself with all the Caribbean and African boys in class and enjoys rap music. But although he's mixed race himself he looks completely caucasian (fluke of nature), is tiny, camp and very arty. I do wonder how things will pan out for him when he becomes a teen, given that street culture in the South London borough we live in isn't particularly welcoming to tiny, camp, arty kids!

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 31-Jan-13 10:25:03

DS, 9, has started saying everything is sick. This is a good thing apparently. No longer since I started saying the same to his friends, but sometimes replacing it with vomit instead. "hello darling, did you & George have a vomit time?"

Fantastic SmallPeople

DonderandBlitzen Thu 31-Jan-13 10:25:34

My eldest dd is 8 and I was hoping my dds would rebel later on by being goths or emos too. I hadnt thought they might end up being chavvy. But then I suppose my mum probably found my teenage goth incarnation just as unpalatable as I would find a super chavvy dd. It's no good them rebelling in a way that we like i guess!

LadyBigtoes Thu 31-Jan-13 10:25:52

Ha ha! If this is real... approve of her. Say, in excruciating middle-class tones, "Darling! I LOVE your hair like that! What fabulous stretchy trousers, would you mind if I got some too?! I'm so glad you're not a goth." etc. If possible, adop as much of her "chav look" yourself as you can. Nothing will put her off faster.

Bejeena Thu 31-Jan-13 10:26:08

Well I can see how this upsets you but I would really really try and see this from your daughters point of view and understand her feelings.

The reason I say this is because I was that teenager. We were the only middle class family (well in fairness in my Mum was working class background, my Dad moved to the area for his job) in a very working class town. I went to one of the worst schools in the country and it is very hard to fit in when all you are the only one whose Dad sounds a bit posh and was university educated, the only one whose Dad worked in an office when everyone else's Dad worked in the local factory. It is very hard and you have to do your best to fit in otherwise you will get picked on and even then there are still some kids who choose to tease you.

In the end I was one of the few in my year to finish A Levels and go to university, I ended up ok, but I tell you something for nothing going to a school like that taught me a lot about life.

I close my eyes and I remember being 14 and going to that same parents evening and honest to god afterwards I was teased the next day to death for being so 'posh' that my Dad came to the parents evening with a suit and tie on as he'd just come from work, when everyone elses Dad's came in overalls. Those days were some of the most unpleasant of my life, but luckily I did have some friends, but if I'd had spoken as if I had a couple of plums in my mouth and dressed the way my Dad would have preferred me to I most certainly wouldn't have. Other incidents also include I used to purposely get 1 or 2 answers wrong in tests/exams because if you got them all right you were a swot and consequently bullied.

It sounds like your daughter is desperate to fit in, she wants people to like her and I am sure that she is a lovely girl and will go very far in life. But now as another poster said you have to be the tolerant and accepting parent you always hoped you would be and love your daughter for who she is.

Would you rather your daughter be the way she is and happy or the way you want her to be and miserable?

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 10:27:23

I can't see the need to rebel.

Not these days, not when there is communication and cooperation and kindness love and understanding between the generations.

I think rebellion happened when we were still stuck in the "them" and "us" of parents and kids.

yawningbear Thu 31-Jan-13 10:27:27

Oh I really wouldn't offer to fund a trip to Shagaluf, have you seen any of those programmes, I caught sight of something recently proudly referred to as 'Best BJ competition' Long gone are the days of merely offensive wet to-shirt competitions. I do totally feel your pain, DD is only little compared to yours but I could see this happening. I agree with Hully. Not much help though unless you can actually afford to move her somewhere else. I would probably be most worried about the baby thing, that would be one thing that could not be easily undone or left behind.

Crinkle77 Thu 31-Jan-13 10:28:45

Is this post for real? The 'brown baby' is a reference to a sketch from Harry Enfield called the slobs

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:30:07

MrsDeVere - My SIL married a total cockney, who works as a painter and decorator and is covered in Chelsea tattoos. They've scraped together the money to send their dc's to very good private schools (they get bursaries). All of their children are now INCREDIBLY posh. Cut glass accents. Tall, gorgeous, academic, sporty. Their oldest boy is being encouraged to consider medicine at university by his school, which is one of the best in the country. I bet BIL gets looks at parents evening too!

FirstTimeForEverything Thu 31-Jan-13 10:30:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 10:31:00

I think the op's name and link might be a clue...

still an interesting question tho

PseudoBadger Thu 31-Jan-13 10:31:10

I think 14 was the age that I was worst for this. By 16 I'd found a whole new group of friends as it was just so difficult to keep up with the pretence of being someone who I wasn't.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:31:49

Crinkle - it is for real. My dd loves mixed race babies. Thinks they're much cuter than Caucasian babies. She's mixed race herself but very light skinned. She wants a baby who is darker than she is.

curryeater Thu 31-Jan-13 10:32:19

One of the cleverest girls in my class at school had horrifically bleached and frizzy-permed hair, orange trowelled-on make-up and glue-pot eye make-up. She did very well, and as far as I know is still doing very well. I think you are right not to worry about make-up and clothes too much.
The school work thing and the baby thing is terriifying though. I think GCSEs are very bad for this sort of pupil, as any idiot who jumps dutifully through the hoops can do well, but a clever lazy kid like yours can't just show up on the day and ace the exam, like we used to do with O levels (ancient, yes - but I was the last year of O levels ;) )
And the baby... oh god (clutches pearls clutches pearls, my girls are 1 and 3 and I am terrified ALREADY). I mean it doesn't matter how she dresses, it doesn't matter how she speaks (she knows how to speak like you, all kids have different dialects for different situations, don't worry about it) but if she buggers up her education and has a baby she will find it hard to come back from, in these cold hard times where you can't get a job answering phones without a degree.
Is she winding you up about the baby thing? I mean she obviously is a bit, but how much? Can you tell?
When do kids get to do work experience? has she expressed any interest in any sort of job? Would a short sharp shock of what life is like at the bottom of the employment food chain achieve anything? Maybe sweeping up in a hair salon for £1.50 a day or whatever the poor buggers get might teach her something.

God my life would have been such a disaster without music. Source of all self-esteem, self-discipline, social skills, sense of responsibility, and emotional outlet. I know people who say the same about martial arts. I think either proper music training, or martial arts, or dance should be compulsory for all teenagers. (only half joking)

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:33:00

"Watch one born every minute and growing up poor with her"

She's watched OBEM. Says she's having a planned c/s. She watched 'growing up poor' at school as part of PSHE.

MiniEggsinJanuary Thu 31-Jan-13 10:33:37

Oh awful, OP! I had a friend who was similar to your DD at 14. She was from a very middle class family and was clever but acted as if she had only half a brain as the other half had been smothered under her make up. She put on an awful accent and purposely made grammatical errors. It might amuse you that I knew her through our country club and the image was rather incongruous to say the least. Her parents were totally exasperated and so sent her to one of the poshest boarding schools in the country. Lord knows how they got her to act in such a way so she got in! Turns out that her act didn't go down too well at boarding school as the others were the other extreme so she became the poshest of the posh overnight! Her parents were thrilled! I'm sure it's just a phase and she will grow out of it.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:35:08

curryeater - she really loves babies and small children, and is brilliant with them.

<hyperventilates>

The only job she has said she is interested in is social work.

FirstTimeForEverything Thu 31-Jan-13 10:35:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Buddhastic Thu 31-Jan-13 10:35:59

My friend, at fifteen, wanted a 'chocolate baby' hmm

specialsubject Thu 31-Jan-13 10:36:47

if this is true...

I remember 'brown baby' from long before Waynetta Slob - white uni pals who were doing something involving childcare, and basically the brown babies were much cuter!

if she wants to dress like the proverbial Australian nightmare, let her - most of us looked ridiculous as teens. Foodwise, she eats what you provide or she goes hungry - stop buying crappy bread and stop the pocket money as she must look after her health. This will also stop the waste of money on magazines etc.

she gets her privileges back when she stops wasting her time at school. That is the bit that disgusts me.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:38:00

If I had the money for a private school she'd be there in a shot.

Unfortunately we don't, so she's at a very mixed London comp. Not complaining about the school though. If she wanted to do really, really well there she could. The school gets kids from their sixth form into Oxbridge and Russell group uni's every year.

Crinkle77 Thu 31-Jan-13 10:39:58

Sorry no offence meant OP. Your post just sounded almost too funny to be true.

onyx72 Thu 31-Jan-13 10:40:03

OP - there are only two things you must do.

Change schools and move to deepest Surrey. grin

" . "hello darling, did you & George have a vomit time?""

I can't stop laughing....we need to help you branch out. Nausea can be used to describe a group of things that are fantastic. "everything Adele does is nauseous". Diarrhoea can be used to indicate you agree with every word someone says. "that David Cameron. He just opens his mouth and diarrhoea comes out" etc grin

cantspel Thu 31-Jan-13 10:41:51

So glad i dont live in london.

here my sons wear chinos, spend all their pocket money on calvin kline underpants and come out with twee saying like "bless his cotton socks" and "Ah bless". I sometimes think he has morphed into his grandfather.

FirstTimeForEverything Thu 31-Jan-13 10:41:54

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

yawningbear Thu 31-Jan-13 10:45:07

Well the social work thing could be a positive, Having been one for the last twenty odd years I usually would always advise against but in this case it might be worth encouraging!

LaQueen Thu 31-Jan-13 10:47:34

This is my private Nightmare...I really won't object (much) to the DDs having fuscia streaks in their hair, or solely dressing from flea-markets, or getting a worthy tattoo...

But, I will hate it with a rabid passion, if they go down the Chavtastic Route...with the grotesque make-up, and the deliberately shit grammar and the plastic-fantastic clothes...

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 10:47:52

cantspel, the only slang dd uses which I find really quaint and funny is 'Oh my days!' which a lot of kids round here say!

She will grow up, and be hideously embarrassed by all this. She's 14. The fact you were hoping she'd be a goth (etc) means that that could never be a rebellion; instead she's found something that makes you despair. It'll all turn out fine in the end.

(Tbh, I'm glad that DS1 is not really interested in what other people think of him. He's not cool and doesn't care, and his friends are all equally uncool. He's going to maths club after school today, because volunteering for extra maths in your spare time is clearly where it's at! However, he's only 12. By 14 I fully expect him to have found several ways to make me despair.)

themottledcat Thu 31-Jan-13 10:50:19

I know someone whose DS was like your DD. He's now grown up and a complete stereotype of nice middle class university educated young man. However this was only achieved after a complete mental breakdown (seriously) over how he actually hated pretending to be cool and dumbing down and wishes to God he had never started it. He was actually desperately unhappy and hating his life. It was mainly down to insecurity and being ridiculously influenced by some of his peers. I agree with you that to not care what other people think of you is a pretty good attribute to have.

I get the impression you still think it is a bit of a laugh she is behaving like this. Believe me, it's not.

I don't know what the solution is though...he had to come to terms with it himself with the help of anti-depressants. He really regrets those wasted years although he has managed to turn it round but it wasn't easy.

Nancy66 Thu 31-Jan-13 10:50:38

my teenage nieces use the 'oh my days' thing...must be the current fashionable parlance.

Op your posts are v.amusing. Thank you!

GirlOutNumbered Thu 31-Jan-13 10:51:27

She sounds like me. I'm now 37 married with two young children and am senior management at a local secondary.

I cringe when I remember teenage me.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 10:52:28

Seriously, if you don't like the street talk tell her to leave it at the door.
Or do what I do and start chattin' back wit sum lyrics blud.
That'll shut her up.

Control the things you can, ignore the things you can't.
You may not like her style but then, you are not supposed to.
Don't fund stuff you don't approve of and you just have to hope that her education prevents her from getting pregnant, though brown babies are much cuter so at least you would have a lovely grandchild.

My son cut all his dreads off and got a Mohawk. I am still grieving.
But as I had a footlong orange Mohawk at his age I have to stfu.
I didn't pay for the haircut though...

Mottled in fairness for most young people it is a phase and a bit of a laugh and they grow out of it.

WaynettaSlobsLover Thu 31-Jan-13 10:54:04

I am waynetta slobs lover and I think OP that you are trying to pull a fast one here. "Everyone's got a 'braaaan baby' on the estate Wayne!!! Why can't I 'ave one!!!" Cue Naomi Campbell lookalike walking in with handful of brown babies. You do not fool me.

You can also help to steer the chav-chic thing she's got going on a bit.

Maybe take her for some make up lessons somewhere really posh (and get her the expensive make up to go with it). Seeing how utterly awesome she could look might have a huge effect. Maybe go together. Or take her to a fancy hairdressers and let her have something great done (still within the bounds of what she considers attractive, but done well if you see what I mean). And/or buy her some very cool, statement piece, designer false eyelashes. Just stuff to see that she can alter the dominant look a on her friends in all manner of interesting ways.

But generally, don't panic. She knows this upsets you, which is what makes it fun. She will grow out of it.

You write very well, and I do sympathise.

I don't mind my DD being a bit alternative as long as it's the right sort of alternative ! D'ya get me ? grin

However I wonder if there are some deeper issues about accepting your DD.
Things I noticed were ... you mentioning a brown baby, her ample cleavage,
that you went to private school, and your Father's occupation.
The ways that you and your daughter are different and the ways you appear different seem to have come into the spotlight.
I wonder in which ways you feel you are similar ?
Intelligence is something you mention for both of you.

If you can start with real acceptance the rest will follow.
As you say, she is testing you.
If you can I'd consider some counseling to talk over some of the underlying issues in your relationship with your daughter.

I think other posters are right too about picking your battles.
Education is more important than appearance.

HTH smile

cantspel Thu 31-Jan-13 10:56:57

my son uses "oh my days" as well. It must be "in" at the moment.

Some of the expressions he uses i need a translation for and when he rabbles on i tend to give him my best blank expression and answer with a general "yes dear"

Oh the joy of 15 year old boys.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 10:58:28

Can I be clear about something else?
The chances are the mc kids doing this are copying each other.
Most of the WC black kids I know are not allowed to use street talk at home and are expected to behave themselves and don't have money to chuck about
Not all of them but unless your dd is hanging around with actual gangs, in which case send her to a convent schools right away.

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 11:01:52

I thought that the OP was a wind up??!!

If not - I have come across kids like her when teaching in less salubrious schools and they are generally a nightmare. Can't be doing with them myself --which is why I no longer teach in rough comps--so no advice to offer.

Still suspect that you are winding everyone up!

Aaahhhh... welcome to my world!
No advice will help at that age.
My DD is now 15 and coming out of a bit.
Fingers crossed yours will do the same.
Good luck though!

ubik Thu 31-Jan-13 11:02:03

I think you change very rapidly at this age and she may have a very different set of priorities a year from now. Also you are her mother and she is exercising her power over you - she knows what you fear most and she is using it to assert her independence.

I found that at my mixed SE london comprehensive it was all bubble perms and gold jewellery and Camber Soul Weekenders.

When I got to sixth form suddenly life opened up, the non academic kids left and I was left with a group of switched on, ambitious hard working young people and I went from some rather crap GCSE grades to AAB at A Level, mainly due to my peers and desire to get to university (which I did)

She is only 14 - don't panic

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 11:03:10

Or have you considered a better school?

I went to school in a very middle class bit of Glasgow. We all adopted stereotypical weegie accents in high school. I'm sure our parents (many of whom had actually grown up poor in the big schemes but had gone to college and gotten professional jobs) despaired of us. My mum and her friends used to repeat 'ts, ds, and i-n-gs' at us ad nauseum. Some of the kids decided to become total neds, complete with the hilarious whiny voice and kappa tracksuits. You'd sometimes see them in the supermarket with their parents talking in their normal voice.

I think we all grew out of it and became the kind of boring people our parents hoped we would.

ISeeSmallPeople Thu 31-Jan-13 11:03:40

Just take lots & lots of photos so you can tease her mercilessly about this phase later when she grows up into a over adult

ISeeSmallPeople Thu 31-Jan-13 11:03:55

Lovely

QueenMaeve Thu 31-Jan-13 11:04:02

My ds wants a superdry coat <sob>. Yanbu

BupcakesAndCunting Thu 31-Jan-13 11:05:53

I am crying at the OP. How come you've not been flamed like a motherfucker?! grin

Anyway, assuming that this is real, YANBU. DH and I are both errrrm, alternative, and we often fret about what if DS comes home with a Kappa trackie on and a penchant for the N-Dubz? sad

I must admit though, I do love a Sarf Lahndan accent!

prozacbear Thu 31-Jan-13 11:08:49

BOARDING SCHOOL.

Oh, just read that that's a no go. Sigh.

My mother decided against moving to LDN, and moved to the bloody middle of nowhere to stop this happening - I'm now effectively an oreo cookie, so at least be glad that she's a bit urban, yo. But I get it - I now have DS and am already planning an escape to the country, at least until he has a university offer (he's 2!) ... his dad keeps goading me by saying he'll have a Sarf London accent, I almost weep. Actually he sounds Nigerian atm, as most of the ladies at his nursery are. It's odd.

I digress ... as long as your DD doesn't get pregnant (The implant, can you do that to children??), let her run around looking and sounding ridiculous. You have time until GCSE's, mock her until then and fingers crossed.

Hullygully Thu 31-Jan-13 11:08:57

Hortensia POLLARD bups

theskyonasnowynight Thu 31-Jan-13 11:09:02

Mrs D, I would second that. I went to a very posh private day school full of mc kids who talked like that and dressed like that at 14!

Hortensia, in my memory 13-15 is the worse age for that sort of thing. Girls who were wearing pashminas and diamond studs at 17 were like that at 14.

It may be her way of establishing a seperate identity from you which will pass or it may be genuinely what she's into. Ignore everything superficial - focus on schoolwork, behaviour and her not getting pregnant (always know who she's meeting up with, for gods sake no holidays abroad with friends and depo provera if you're really worried).

In my year at Oxford there were several girls who were frankly very chavvy in the superficial ways you've described. One is a successful children's law barrister (maybe something you're dd might be interested in if she's interested in social work) who's just as chavvy as she ever was but finds herself popular with clients who like the fact that she isn't the stereotype barrister.

Dahlen Thu 31-Jan-13 11:09:49

Most of the time, children end up being very much a product of their parenting. Despite rebelling totally as a teen myself (in ways that make your DD look like a saint), I am now so much like my own parents it's laughable.

Firm boundaries in place for the things that are really unacceptable, ignore the rest, continue to show alternatives and encourage independent thinking and it will all work out fine in the end.

(And maybe a few extra discussions about STIs, since you can reduce pregnancy risk relatively simply by encouraging her to have the injection/implant etc., but this will do little to protect her sexual and emotional health.)

I agree with MrsDeVere about them all probably being middle class kids pretending to be 'chavs'. Very few of them probably have any intention of having babies at 15 and all the silly stuff they talk about. It's likely to just be a silly phase that will be replaced with other (equally silly) phases.

GinAndaDashOfLime Thu 31-Jan-13 11:11:01

Sorry OP but it is HILARIOUS!! I'm also an English teacher living in (I'm fairly certain) the same borough as you and yes, it'd break my heart if my DCs did this as teens - luckily for me they're still small.

No advice sorry (apart from moving school) but you write so well maybe you should write a blog about your MC life with a chavvy teen?!

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 11:11:16

Nope - re-read it and it is definitely a wind up. Funny though and well written! Well done - made me smile today!

Yfronts Thu 31-Jan-13 11:16:34

It's her way of rebelling - she knows which buttons to press. Use a little psychology, tell her you love her look, music and accent. Tell her it's her choice if she want to have a baby early, eat crap food and fail her exams. Tell her you love her and accept her the way she is. You respect the choices she makes in life.

Failing that maybe you could dress up like her!!

Agree a goth or punk would be much more interesting.

grin

One of my high school friends rebelled against her mc parents (and particularly the years of elocution lessons they'd subjected her to) by adopting the most hilarious weegie accent of us all during her teen years. She's now more mc than her parents ever were.

littlewhitebag Thu 31-Jan-13 11:18:21

Your daughter is at an age where she is trying to find her identity and at this point in her life she is choosing to identify with her friends not with you.

My DD1 was an emo at that age - thick make up, loads of black eye make up, loud miserable music, weird black clothes and a lot of attitude. SHe is now 20 and at uni and is as normal looking a girl as you could imagine (apart from red hair!).

The more you show disapproval the more she will go all out to be the most chavviest chav ever. Start taking an interest in all aspects of her life and you may find she becomes less interested. She knows exactly how to push your buttons and you must try not to respond negatively. Hard i know! Good luck.

WorraLiberty Thu 31-Jan-13 11:18:23

Of course it's wind up

And 'racist against gingers?'...it's not even a subtle one grin

PaellaUmbrella Thu 31-Jan-13 11:23:04

0/10

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 11:24:29

But many posters are offering rather earnest advice...actually that is quite funny too...keep it coming as I need cheering up today.

Dahlen Thu 31-Jan-13 11:27:07

Sadly, while this particular thread may be an entertaining hoax, the scenario is almost certainly real in one or more households.

It's like the MN equivalent of Ali G grin who was based on the attempts by MC children to emulate so-called black gang culture.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 11:30:04

Well countykitten I am desperately trying to avoid yet another 'chippy' accusation.

So I is bein nice Innit.

Cos in my hedz I am a bit hmm.
Quelle horreur (sp, I am WC after all) that a child might be acting a bit black working class (or a MC version thereof)

LaQueen Thu 31-Jan-13 11:30:22

My Mum was a snaeky begger, who used an excellent Reverse Psychology tactic on me...

At 16, I'd come tripping downstairs in one of my Dad's old suit jackets (with cuffs rolled back), micro-mini-skirt, custom-ripped opaque tights, DMs, my hair hidden under a black beret with just my (heavily back-combed) fringe showing, traffic-stopping red lippy and swathes of black eye-liner..

My Mum: 'Oh, you look lovely, darling, I do like your beret...have a lovely time'

Feckin cow ...I never, ever had anything to rebel against, my life was so dull angry

Within a year I was wearing neat capri pants, and naice sweaters from Next hmm

HannahsSister40 Thu 31-Jan-13 11:32:42

what gave you away instantly was the 'brown baby' comment.
I have strong mental image of the Mother in Miranda- 'no tracksuits in Waitrose' etc.. very good post- there's a market for that somewhere. Grace Dent wrote Diary Of A Chav, didn't she?

JohnBender88 Thu 31-Jan-13 11:33:43

She may grow out of it. My older sister wouldn't be seen dead in anything other than Umbro, scraped her hair into the highest ponytail her scalp would allow and used a whole bottle of gel spray to seperate her fringe into individual crunchy sections.

Now? She always looks immaculate and has a very good career.

givemeaclue Thu 31-Jan-13 11:34:25

Boarding school.

Seriously.

happyjustobeme Thu 31-Jan-13 11:35:20

I am lovin' this!

Excellent work, OP.

Now fess up. Who are ya really?

HannahsSister40 Thu 31-Jan-13 11:35:48

I have a 13 year old goth who wears eyeliner, studded neck collar, skulls, crosses and lots of black. Sometimes I'd prefer her to be chavvy! But I always always tell her she looks great: (even when I'm cringing inwardly) and am secretly glad she's not a boring drone like I was as a teen; mind you my Mother had no money to fuel my fashion experimentation--

Are the people recommending moving school serious or p taking? I can't tell

JustAHolyFool Thu 31-Jan-13 11:37:56

My working class mother was horrified when I started listening to whingy indie music. Horrified.

Then, she was horrified when she saw me drinking a pint as well. Very much UPPER working class, my mam.

MrsDeVere: I think the main issue is that this is generally some awful mc parody of wc life, rather than genuinely adopting aspects of black wc culture. As I said, all the mc kids at my school pretended to be a bit neddy, then we got a bit older and it was cool to pretend to be wc Brit-pop stylee. The irony of us all bopping along to 'common people'...

LauraPashley Thu 31-Jan-13 11:42:22

I don't care if it's real, it's funny grin!

Fwiw at 17 I was mortified by my "posh" parents and had spent years trying to appear much more of a ned (Scottish chav!) than I really was. I was genuinely happy with my lot- had "serious" boyfriend with a "good" job (yts on a building site, had 20hrs a week work at a supermarket which I intended to take to ft, so that boyfriend and I could move in. This despite the fact I had 3 uni offers to choose from and a set of despairing MC parents at home. I also wanted a baby!
It was actually the boyfriend who talked sense into me and said I might regret not going to uni. Would only listen to him, not parents. I left in tears swearing we'd get married soon, we'd split up by October grin

Anyway funny as it all may be I do think I came quite close to having a completely different life!

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 11:49:06

"I get the impression you still think it is a bit of a laugh she is behaving like this. Believe me, it's not"

I have cried. I really have. But DH and I try to laugh as well, otherwise we'd both be utter despair. We're doing our best.

"The ways that you and your daughter are different and the ways you appear different seem to have come into the spotlight."

Juggling - you're very astute! I was thinking about this the other day. My dad was a senior diplomat, but was that rare thing - someone from a truly working class background (one of six boys, unmarried mother, living on a council estate in east London), who'd left school at 14 but who managed to get a prestigious job by being very, very bright. No grammar school leg up. No university education. My mum also left school at 14. Both my parents were socialists and I was a COMPLETE fish out of water at my very non-trendy private school, where I felt like the poor relation. I remember having a huge fight with my very posh best friend at 14 from which our relationship never recovered, because of her attitude to the miners' strike (I supported them, she thought they were 'stupid little men'). I think class was a real issue for me growing up, and was one of the ways in which I felt really isolated.

I think dd also feels like she doesn't fit in and is trying her best. But isn't feeling that you don't fit in the alpha and omega of adolescence?

I do wonder how much adolescent rebellion is in our genes? I was a hideous teenager. grin

landofsoapandglory Thu 31-Jan-13 11:49:46

I reckon this is a wind up!

But, you know when you read the threads why people would hate to live in the country? This is why I like living in the country! My kids wouldn't be out of place reading the news, they and their friends think it is cool to work hard at school and do well. They get mightily pissed off when people mees around at school and eat into their learning time. They do say things are 'sick', but that is as far as it goes!

Their cousins live in a city, quite far away from us, and they are quite like the child described in this post! When they talk to me I sit thinking 'what are they saying!'

countrykitten Thu 31-Jan-13 11:51:01

I love being in the country too - brilliant way to live.

Madlizzy Thu 31-Jan-13 11:54:38

Hmmm, she's got her accent wrong. To go with the look fully, she needs to speak Brizzle. Whatever you do though, keep an eye in case she swaps future babies for a Westlife CD, because that's what her mates have done in the past.

gotthemoononastick Thu 31-Jan-13 12:01:33

everything mrsdevere said....opt for a military style church boarding school in Africa.

Thanks Hortensia - astuteness is one of my top aspirations ! smile

Interesting to hear about your experiences growing up and about your Father's remarkable life path from humble beginnings.

I think you're right that this is the sort of stuff adolescence is made of !

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 12:02:30

MrsDeVere - I live in a very rough, NOT trendy bit of London. Our local high street has 3 wig shops, 4 halal butchers, an evangelical bookshop, and a Wimpy.

My dc's school is three quarters non-white. Fly tipping and dog shit are the order of the day as far as the urban environment goes.

There are a few middle-class kids at my younger dc's school. A few. But at mostly middle-class families around here who can't get their children into church, grammar or private flee the area and move to Surrey at the end of infants. We're staying put because we can't afford to/can't be arsed to move/hate Surrey/need to be close to elderly and infirm parents.

"Or have you considered a better school?"

<Weeps>

No money for private. Not church goers. See above.

And actually her school is OK. Lots of hard working African and Asian girls getting good grades. I LONG for dd to make friends with one of these girls, but she describes them as 'posh' and doesn't feel she's got much in common with them. Her best friend is 14 going on 23, starts fights on buses, stands outside the chicken shop on the high street trying to get strangers to buy her chicken, and has a teenage brother at home who's electronically tagged. shock As it's the same girl she's been friends with since nursery I don't think it's a flash in the pan friendship!

LOL @ "military style church boarding school in Africa" grin

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 12:05:34

"everything mrsdevere said....opt for a military style church boarding school in Africa"

Reminds me of a Ghanian boy I taught in London who'd attended an African boarding school before coming to the UK.

I asked him what it was like. He looked at me with sad eyes and said, "Beating miss. Every day. Beating, beating, beating."

sad

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 31-Jan-13 12:12:54

great thread, and I suspect real. I rebelled against my very MC inversely snobbish parents by going punk at 14 and generally arsing about and getting into trouble until I left school with one A Level at 18.

I then got my act together qualified as a solicitor and am so like my parents it is scary. Not the inverse snobbery btw, but the way I bring up my DC, my politics, my home and lifestyle. Although the is a fair bit more wine involved in my life than there was in my parents grin

Stick with it OP. My dad always says that even in the darkest moments of my teenage years he was always heartened to hear from people around the village that 'despite what she looks like Funnys is always soooo polite'.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 12:20:52

I used to get really pissed off at being told I was rebelling as a teen.
My DM kept saying it.
I wasn't rebelling, I was dressing the way I liked and doing the things I liked.

It was like my DM was trying to take the credit for what I was doing. It's patronising ,she is only doing that because we do this'

Basically I was getting on with my life because my parents showed very little interest in what I did anyway.

PseudoBadger Thu 31-Jan-13 12:26:36

I always worry that I'll get the teenager I deserve.

PseudoBadger Thu 31-Jan-13 12:27:05

And I know my mum hopes I do!

To be fair....if I'd have rebelled I'd have been like Miss Pollard....my parents are hippy musicians and I was in my first band at 13. We had to lie about our age to play at the local venue grin

My Mum dyed my hair pink for me when I was 13 as we were going to WOMAD festival.

Hobbitation Thu 31-Jan-13 12:29:12

At 14 I used to try and dress like Neneh Cherry (who I still think is cool BTW) and more towards 15 I got into Madchester gear and would be decked head to foot in Joe Bloggs gear. By the time I was 17 though I was in floral skirts, velvet jackets, DMs and wearing too much black eyeliner. Until I was about 19 then I tried to emulate Natalie Imbruglia/Audrey Hepburn but which turned out more Posh Spice more often than not.

Nowadays I try to dress a bit Wealden Times but it comes out more Dorothy Perkins/TU at Sainsbury's smile

She has many fashion faux-pas to come so I shouldn't worry.

Greythorne Thu 31-Jan-13 12:29:36

I think those saying "she will look back and cringe" might be wide of the mark.

I was a gothy, Indie kid in the early 90s, never went the whole hog but had dyed black hair, all black clothes, very insular in my circle of friends (dismissed anyone who listened to anything not on our "approved listening" list) etc.

Now I am in my 40s, I still love the same music, still wear mostly black and grey although my taste runs more to black cashmere from The White Company these days and I most emphatically do not look back and cringe!

No OK I can see that but do you not cringe that you "dismissed anyone who listened to anything not on our "approved listening" list"

BacardiNCoke Thu 31-Jan-13 12:31:56

She sounds exactly my DSD at 14. The inches think orange foundation, masses of eyeliner and mascara, tracky bottoms, biiiiig cleavage. The attitude the talking etc. We were exasperated with her at the time. She's 20 now, and to look at her and hear her talk you'd never think she was like that. She's a lovely young woman now, works full time, has her own car, got a boyfriend, saving up to move in with her boyfriend, and would rather die than have a baby young. Her parents had her at 18 and she's determined not to get pregnant before she's 25.

PseudoBadger Thu 31-Jan-13 12:33:03

I don't look back and cringe at what I wore Greythorne, but I really do when I think of how much I changed myself into something that I was not to fit in, and the things that I said to my parents as part of this.

MoominmammasHandbag Thu 31-Jan-13 12:38:27

Hortensia I feel your pain. Me and DH are working class and University educated, with gothy/alternative youths and a very middle class lefty outlook now.
Our eldest DS was the male version of your girl; he listened to very questionable rap/urban music and bought all his clothes from JJB. I use to feel like weeping when his best mate came round for him with his lovely long hair and indie look and DS was there with some awful crew cut with lines shaved in it. But DS has always thought the indie/guitar based/folkie rock/blues we listen to is "old people's music". And yeah, like your daughter, he was a complete idler at school. He only ever wanted to be a footballer.
I have absolutely no helpful suggestions OP. But what I can say is that we managed to keep DS in school (I think a taste of a minimum wage Saturday job helped with that) and he scraped into a good University. One term on he has a completely different outlook, and a different look as well. He has even grown his hair and stopped wearing trainers. He still has crap taste in music though....

Hobbitation Thu 31-Jan-13 12:39:13

Also until I was 16 I wanted to have lots of babies by the time I was 25, by the time I was 17 I was all "I definitely DON'T want children AT ALL, EVER" smile

Hobbitation Thu 31-Jan-13 12:40:30

I really do when I think of how much I changed myself into something that I was not to fit in, and the things that I said to my parents as part of this.

THIS

Really made me laugh - sorry! Do you have any relatives in the country (perhaps near a 'naice' secondary) that would have her to stay for a year? Or a year's foreign exchange in US if it's the right area and school? Perhaps change her peer group?

Of course we live in London too so in 10 years time the joke will be on me...

badtime Thu 31-Jan-13 12:48:20

I rebelled by staying on to do A-levels and insisting on going to university.

I now live on the London-Essex borders, and as you can imagine there is a high level of orangeness among the yoof. However, I have noticed that the kids stay chavvy-tracksuit-and-fake-patois until they leave school/college, then within weeks they are well turned-out and getting up every morning to go to work or university. They may still be orange (it is their culture, after all, and they probably think my pale skinned, tousled-natural-coloured-hair look is tacky), but they are productive and grown-up.
My area is very 'respectable' though, and I think there would be a lot of peer pressure to be 'successful'.

imogengladhart Thu 31-Jan-13 12:50:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

london Thu 31-Jan-13 12:50:56

I had as similar situation with DD - albeit we live in what sounds like a posher area. The double take from the teachers on seeing us and the make up is very familiar. I once had a teacher suggest as a learning target that DD wore less make up...

Is your DD set for GCSEs yet? That had a major impact on my DD's friends, who all appear to have plummy accents now - from one extreme to another - (and as another poster said, have too much money and laissez faire parents!)

Slang still rules in our house though. Comes in handy sometimes though, I found myself describing a book as 'moist' the other day, at a bookgroup discussion...grin

Greythorne Thu 31-Jan-13 12:53:11

Nah, I still don't associate with people who listen to Take That smile smile

stargirl1701 Thu 31-Jan-13 12:56:07

What a thread!!! gringringrin

Eastpoint Thu 31-Jan-13 13:11:32

My friend's daughter was very similar and my friend was advised by the school that she was hanging around with girls with low aspirations. My friend changed her shifts and made her daughter come home after school each day by 4:30. This limited the amount of time she spent floating round the streets in and out of MacDonalds etc. She then spent more time on her work & moved out of those sets. Is your daughter's school streamed or setted? If she is in a low-achieving stream it will be very hard for her to move on (even if she changes enough to want to).

Are there any activities you both enjoy which you can do together at the weekend to help engage her with a high achieving life? Design museum, Zandra Rhodes' Fashion Museum? Does she feel valued for who she is within the family? It sounds as if she is trying to make her own family/tribe by identifying with these fellow pupils. My parents were very wrapped up in their own lives & I felt like a constant disappointment as a teen & adopted dangerous behaviours but I did feel valued by my friends. Good luck!

comingintomyown Thu 31-Jan-13 13:17:11

I believe this

DD at 13 also longs for me to be "not so posh" , wants dip dye hair and a cartilage piercing although thus far is respecting my no way stance

Her speech is the thing that makes me cringe most especially " oh my goooood" and "like" inserted at will

However I am now reflecting with pleasure on how she doesnt wear heavy make up or want a baby of any colour

BegoniaBampot Thu 31-Jan-13 13:25:01

Funny, we know our kids might rebel a bit but I think we are all thinking they will rebel in a way we might accept like the goth or alternative look, never thought they'd end up an Ali G or Vicky Pollard - shocker and now I'm getting scared.

Don't think I did rebel really though remember being annoyed at parents, everything they said sent me into a rage. Came from a council estate, quite a few rough kids. Maybe I did rebel by not having a boyfriend as everyone else was desperate to do, getting pregnant at 15/16 drinking Buckie in the street, fighting and swearing like a trooper. The more they laughed at my 'poshness', the posher I became.

ifancyashandy Thu 31-Jan-13 13:30:22

Are you my mother OP, writing retrospectively?! grin.

I messed up at school, wanted a brown baby, had a perm, wore a tonne of make up, went to mainstream nightclubs, wore tarty clothes, high heels, had a boyfriend who drove a Capri, hung around on the council estate and the only career I considered was social work (but failed my A levels to rebel).

My parent were lefty hippies, feminist, teachers, middle class public school educated and would have been delighted if I were a goth, hippy, activist. Being 'straight' and 'normal' got so far up my mothers nose! Rebellion a huge success!!

I now a child free middle class, University educated media professional.

But I still wear too much make up and high heels! Hang on in there... grin

FlorentinePogen Thu 31-Jan-13 13:59:00

Great thread. grin

There has to be potential script mileage in the 'senior diplomat with uber-chavette granddaughter who wants brown babies' scenario.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 14:16:21

She's already told me she wants to have a baby young. A brown baby.

OH god this made me choke my coffee out!!!!

can you afford private education?

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 14:25:00

"Her best friend is 14 going on 23, starts fights on buses, stands outside the chicken shop on the high street trying to get strangers to buy her chicken, and has a teenage brother at home who's electronically tagged.

Oh sweet jesus OP!!!!

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 14:34:34

She's just trying to fit in. You won't be able to stop her doing this. She will grow out of it but you need to to try and limit the damage.

Focus on her school work and not getting pregnant with a baby of any colour!

If you can navigate her through these years with no long term consequences, you will both look back and laugh.

A teenage pregnancy or appalling grades might not be so funny though ..

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Thu 31-Jan-13 14:54:35

This is all very amusing and it's right to say that rebellion is a normal part of teenage years but personally I'd be really worried if I was the OP. I'd be very wary in the next few years she doesn't get involved in gangs.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 15:04:05

I do really feel for the OP.

I am dreading the teenage years. My eldest is only 5 and I can already see the effect of school on her. I wonder why I've spent the last 5yrs educating her right from wrong when she goes to school and copies all the bad behaviour sees.

I bet the OP's daughter was a lovely little girl and she is wondering how all this happened.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 15:14:37

The whole 'brown baby, OMG' thing is getting a bit annoying now.
Just sayin'

Does it really terrify so many of you that much. A baby at 14? yes, terrible. But does it being a brown one make it that much worse?

I hate to be a downer and all, but honestly, think about it.

What I am hearing is 'Jesus she wants to get pregnant by one of MrsDevere's boys. Fucking hell, kill me now....'

JoanByers Thu 31-Jan-13 15:20:58
ILovePonyo Thu 31-Jan-13 15:23:16

I did grin at "brown baby" MrsDeVere but only because my friend calls my dd a "beige baby" (brown dad and white mum = beige baby apparently). However I see your point. I remember my cousin telling her mum she was going to have a baby with a black man when cousin was young, because that must have been shocking to her hmm She didn't, btw.

So is this thread a wind up? The last few posts by OP read like it

ILovePonyo Thu 31-Jan-13 15:23:52

*like it is

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 15:28:29

Mrs DeVere

dont get upset!!! Its the phrasing "brown baby" that made me snort rather than the fact that the eponymous baby would be brown thats all. I dont know why but it made me laugh

and sorry, but its true. Lets not be overly PC here. My local community creche is wall to wall girls like Hortensia said, with their babies . Toddlers with adidas eyebrows and earring, and no Dad. and baby mama

Please dont bring race it it, as I really dont think thats the issue

BreastmilkDoesAFabLatte Thu 31-Jan-13 15:30:14

Love the name change!

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:35:20

If this isn't a wind up, then its just shit.

Amazed that the mum of a mixed race child would say 'have a brown baby' as if that is a sure sign of delinquency.

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:36:57

fromparistoberlin

Yeah dont let 'political correctness' stand on the way of your racist stereotypes eh

ethelb Thu 31-Jan-13 15:39:50

@MrsDevere I think people are snorting at the idea that a mixed race young woman in south london would come up with a comment as crass as 'have a brown baby'. Surely? hmm

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:43:13

I dont believe a mixed race girl would feel the need to say brown anyway.

Catchingmockingbirds Thu 31-Jan-13 15:46:53

Surely she's just copying her friends by using that term though?

curryeater Thu 31-Jan-13 15:47:23

Mrsdevere, I am sorry this thread sounds like people being all "OMG THE HORROR" about your kids, that must be very hurtful. Not everyone is though (I for one said "don't let her have a baby!" not "don't let her have a brown baby!")

But on the other hand, you don't like certain behaviours either, you say that you won't have certain kinds of speech in your house and lots of WC parents are similarly strict. So if you don't like it, and other parents you respect (I think) don't like it, what is wrong with the OP not liking it?

I guess the not-liking-it is wrapped up in a lot of uncomfortable snobbery in this thread but I think you are on the same page in a lot of the substantive stuff about hope for your kids' future, etc. ie if you thought one of your dcs was about to get a teenager pregnant, would you not read the riot act?

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 15:48:43

Let's not bring race onto it? A little late for that cement surely?
Ho hum.,,, scratch the surface and all that...

DontmindifIdo Thu 31-Jan-13 15:50:12

OP - if this is not a wind up, you do know that as a teacher yourself, if you get a job in a private school, a normal perk of that job would be a free place for your DD. Look at posh girls schools recruiting. It might be worth sacrificing your own career goals to get her through her GCSEs. You can work in socially disadvantaged schools improving society for the next 20 years, spend the next 4 turning out a DD who's not fucked up her future by failing her GCSEs and gettign knocked up just to join in with the cool kids. If you live in a deprived area she probably has no idea that people like her can do so much with their lives.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 15:50:15

amberleaf

firstly I did not define what race the local girls I mentioed where, so why am I racist exactly????

secondly if you see that as a stereotype, well great! But I assure you its not

I get that the mocking tone towards less privilaged and educated souls on this thread is a tad jarring, I can see that

But pink/brown/blue these girls exist and if a DD aspires to be one, well its not ideal is it really????

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:51:21

Surely she's just copying her friends by using that term though?

What, WC girls from south london using the term 'brown baby'?

No.

mrsjay Thu 31-Jan-13 15:51:24

this whole thread is just weird it seems to be hilarious to laugh at sterotypes and pretend horror its all a bit hmm tbh the op dd sounds as if she is badly behaved at school I would be challanging that and not worrying about what she is wearing, or maybe stop buying her belly tops and trainers if you are so worried about her being a 'chav'

WorraLiberty Thu 31-Jan-13 15:52:18

I think possibly what Mrsdevere means is that the OP has kind of 'excused' the brown baby comment by claiming her DD is mixed race.

But how do we know if that's true or just something she added in 4 posts later because people picked up on it?

We don't obviously.

We can only believe (or not) what we read on here from anyone.

curryeater Thu 31-Jan-13 15:52:44

"But pink/brown/blue..." people who use this trope are nearly always at least a bit racist. Up there with "Not to be racist, but..." and "some of my best friends are - well, I work with some - " It's a useful indicator.
Not saying you are necessarily, fromparistoberlin. but if you aren't I'd recommend you stop saying that

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:52:47

paristoberlin

Who stereotypically uses the term 'babymama'?

You and I both know it isnt white people, so don't try that crap please.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 15:53:02

MrsDe Vere

forget for a minute (please) about brown baby, its a stupid fucking phrase- I see that

Its about how her daughter is aspiring to be like people with little aspiration

Its just depressing beyond words actually, as in worrying about her daughter we are kind of fucking off the girls that DONT have a caring MC mummy

It's all a bit off when I think about it, wished I had through before posting TBH

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:53:31

I agree Worra.

That was hastily slipped in wasn't it.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 15:53:31

teen mums amber

orlakielylover Thu 31-Jan-13 15:53:55

Mrs DeVere I read that too fast. I read 'Jesus she wants to get pregnant by one of MrsBrown's boys. Fucking hell, kill me now....'

<slaps self>
<point taken>

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:54:53

curryeater, yes 'black/white or green with purple spots' such a cliche.

WorraLiberty Thu 31-Jan-13 15:55:54

It was indeed...

Antipag Thu 31-Jan-13 15:56:35

I took the OP reference to 'brown baby' as a nod to Waynetta Slob not a comment on race. I assumed it was to reinforce the chat qualities! It sounds to me like your daughter is rebelling in the most simple of forms, to the thing you abhor most! It's normal, I suspect given that her teachers recognise how bright she is that she will pull it back educationally, I know I did. I had a very similar attitude to school as she does, a certain maths teacher suffere horribly at my ridiculous behaviours, but I dd enough to get by at GCSE'S, walked my A levels and smashed a first class hoboes degree. Who we are when we are 14 is rarely who we end up being.

I'm not sure that anyone has meant to be racist here (and plenty of posters haven't mentioned anything about the 'brown baby' thing; I don't think I have). I do agree that the term itself is horribly problematic (and so is the idea that the thing that would matter most in a baby would be the colour of its skin).

For what it's worth, if I had daughters, I'd be perfectly happy for them to have your DS's babies provided they were both about 30ish. grin

LucilleBluth Thu 31-Jan-13 15:57:18

What a load of crap. I may have had a sense of humour bypass today because I don't find the OP funny at ALL, in fact I think she's a bit of a dick what with her exhaustive list of offensive 'chav' stereotypes.

ILovePonyo Thu 31-Jan-13 15:57:50

I say "brown" and am not racist.

Agree that op seemed to suddenly realise what she had said so quickly posted that her dd is mixed race.

So - this thread is a wind up, isn't it?!

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:58:42

A nod to waynetta slob?

She said that is what her DD wants.

how is it not a comment on race?

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 15:59:27

I think it is a wind up yes, but its nice to see how casual racism is ok for so many.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 15:59:38

Its bad taste.

was funny to start with in a mean fucked up way

but bad taste

and I bet you £60 her DD is not mixed race

sigh, when will I learn!!!

Well, in terms of strangely coloured children, DS2 often comes home from nursery with blue/green/purple/etc skin. He likes the drawing table, but I'm not sure that much ink ends up on the paper. <sidesteps race issues entirely>

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:01:27

Have a baby young.........a brown baby.

=

Something bad............something even worse.

Thats not racist?

Antipag Thu 31-Jan-13 16:02:57

I assumed she had added it for comedy value, in the sense that she was directly borowing the joke from the infamous Waynetta slob, and that it wasn't a direct quote. I am not even convinced it is a genuine post.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 16:03:17

who was that directed at amber?

LucilleBluth Thu 31-Jan-13 16:04:17

AmberLeaf absolutely right, it's a horrible thing to insinuate, fucking horrible.

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:05:13

Who was what directed at fromparis?

ubik Thu 31-Jan-13 16:05:15

I don't know why private school is suddenly the answer hmm Op has stated her daughter's school is a good one, why should she spend money on private education?

The 'brown baby' thing is a reference to Wayne and Waynetta Slob, isn't it? When Wayne goes off with Naomi Campbell?

feelokaboutit Thu 31-Jan-13 16:08:29

Speaking as someone whose children are half Indian, half white European, I don't find the term brown baby offensive or think it was meant to be. I took it as simple statement of the OP's daughter wanting to be in with her crowd which in this case means not only having a baby young, but a baby of a particular background. No more no less. I don't see this as racist. Maybe the term brown itself comes with inherent problems as what exactly does it mean?? However I still don't think the OP was being racist.

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:08:44

How is it a reference to wayne and waynetta slob in the context the OP wrote it in?

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:10:34

I took it as simple statement of the OP's daughter wanting to be in with her crowd which in this case means not only having a baby young, but a baby of a particular background

Yeah cos thats what they all do in SE London, silly anyway, what with the DD being mixed race an all hmmm

ubik Thu 31-Jan-13 16:11:40

I guess she is painting a picture of her dd's future in a velour tracksuit, fag in hand wailing:'I want a braaan baby, like all the other muvvers on the estate, and you just can't give me that, Wayne.'

Or something

WorraLiberty Thu 31-Jan-13 16:13:42

<< Sigh >>

The OP claims her DD used a phrase from a show she's too young to even remember...then when pulled up on it claims her DD is mixed race.

She then goes on to describe her DD as racist towards white boys and 'racist' towards ginger people hmm

Mix that ^^ with all the insults for other girls like 'skets, sluts, ho's and bitches'

Oh, and the fact she's apparently promised a 14yr old a holiday in Magaluf with a friend...

And some people took this thread remotely seriously?

Really??

feelokaboutit Thu 31-Jan-13 16:14:01

Not in SE London in general, but the bit that the OP's daughter knows and is in contact with, even if it means a handful of people. Maybe the OP's daughter identifies more with her non white background. Out of my 3 children, my youngest dd shows more interest in her Indian heritage.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 16:18:07

i actually think the brown baby is a red herring

but the casual chav bashing!

myself included

www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-The-Demonization-Working-Class/dp/1844678644/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1359649052&sr=8-1

perceptionreality Thu 31-Jan-13 16:18:57

OP, tbh the look you describe is mainstream among teenage girls at the moment, it's not chav imo. I would be more horrified if my girls were to have shaved patches on their head so just goes to show that what is shocking is subjective.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:19:03

I use the term brown as well. My boys are brown and as well as mixed race and black too.

I am not objecting to people saying brown.

I am not objecting to people agreeing that the OP's alleged child aspirations are worrying.

I am getting fed up with the overt horror at the idea of having a child by a black man.

It is casually lumped in with the not wanting to do well at school, the make up, the acting like she is thick etc.

It is insulting. Its actually pretty fucking vile.

'She wants to have a baby' is enough information to make it alarming.

If the op had said 'so she wants a baby and she wants it to be a boy with blonde hair and green eyes and it has to be pretty' this thread would be all about the girl's immature idea of motherhood and how she wants a real live dolly to dress up.

Add 'a brown baby' into the mix and it all becomes so much more alarming.

Because black boys are seen as sexual aggressors and baby fathers who will groom, abuse and leave those pretty middle class girls with a baby and a few bruises.

As the mother of four black boys I am not amused. I have been with my husband for over 20 years. We have had five children together. We bring our kids up with values and morals.

Yet our efforts are dismissed in that 'innocuous' little phrase 'she wants a brown baby' and the reaction it gets.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 16:19:50

My post is 100% genuine.

DD is mixed race - her grandfather is from Guyana and is mixed African and Asian heritage.

I have been posting on mumsnet for 7 years and I'm well known under another user name.

Allinonebucket Thu 31-Jan-13 16:20:20

How old is your youngest MrsDeVere? I think you'd be a nice MIL for DD actually.

mrsjay Thu 31-Jan-13 16:20:28

I am getting fed up with the overt horror at the idea of having a child by a black man.

It is casually lumped in with the not wanting to do well at school, the make up, the acting like she is thick etc.

It is insulting. Its actually pretty fucking vile.

^ ^ that, and everything MRS DV said that i didnt quote

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:23:29

feel with respect, the op is not talking about your children.
She is talking about men from black West Indian or African backgrounds.

But there will be a whole other set of offensive stereotypes around for your DCs to engender feelings of horror in the hearts of middle England.

It sucks that people think this is ok.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 16:25:21

"I am getting fed up with the overt horror at the idea of having a child by a black man."

Mrs DV , I know I am harping on, but I really dont think thats why people are reacting this way.

I can 100% see why it pissed you off, but honest to god my snurk was due to the silliness of the word, and that waynetta sketch thats all

and I think thats how many other people have reacted

But I can see why you are upset, for sure

and by saying "Because black boys are seen as sexual aggressors and baby fathers who will groom, abuse and leave those pretty middle class girls with a baby and a few bruises."

thats fucking HARSH! please dont assume that people think like that, please

because whilst some sadly do, so many dont. and to assume most people feel like that, well its not a healthy view

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:25:32

Maybe the OP's daughter identifies more with her non white background

Umm, what does that mean?

So would identifying with her black background explain the desire to be feckless?

Is that what you meant?

ILovePonyo Thu 31-Jan-13 16:26:40

Agreed MrsDeVere.

And without wanting to sound flippant, OP your dd will have a 'brown' baby. Because she herself is mixed race.

WorraLiberty Thu 31-Jan-13 16:29:16

OP if you're as genuine as you say you are

I'm more shocked that your main complaint about your DD is her looks rather than some of the vile racism/sexism she comes out with.

Looks can and do change

I'd work on why she sees calling a boy she doesn't like, 'so white' as a term of abuse to be honest.

I'd be ashamed if a child of mine called someone they didn't like 'so black'.

Their looks would be the least of my worries.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 16:30:16

Mrsdevere - my DH and his father are amazing fathers.

I suppose the brown baby thing is the sort of comment that might put up the hackles up of those who are't actually lliving like I am - where every aspect of my life - my marriage, my children, my work, my neighbours, my community, my children's school, my friendships, IS multicultural and it's not really an 'issue' , its just my normal world, hence me not be guarded about my language.

ethelb Thu 31-Jan-13 16:31:08

Now that everyone is talking about race do you think the OP's daughter is afraid of being considered a "coconut" (as horrible, and vile a phrase and concept though it is)?

Is that something you have considered OP? Is that why all the causal racism/odd attidtudes towards different races?

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:31:56

And without wanting to sound flippant, OP your dd will have a 'brown' baby. Because she herself is mixed race

Indeed.

If you are genuine OP, why do you see your DD having a brown baby as such an issue? given that you did exactly that yourself?

ethelb Thu 31-Jan-13 16:32:20

@Iloveponyo and strictly speaking her OP had a "brown baby" so it is an odd comment.

Maryz Thu 31-Jan-13 16:32:28

Disregarding (for a moment) the "brown" baby part of your post, I do actually sympathise with the rest of it.

My son wants to be working class. Well, not working class exactly, more underclass hmm. His role models are gangsters and dealers; he only watches tv programmes to laugh at the crooks making fools of the police. He won't register to vote (it's too middle class) but if he did he would vote for Sinn Féin.

He finds us really, really embarrassing. He talks like he was brought up on the streets in the middle of Dublin, with a slight tinge of Irish Traveller to make it even more incomprehensible.

But he can talk to his Granny in a perfectly "normal" soft Irish accent.

And is getting into trouble at college because they don't believe he is doing his own assignments as his vocabulary is too good.

Underneath it all his home life and eduction is still there.

Much to his bitter, bitter resentment.

Needingthework Thu 31-Jan-13 16:33:55

I agree with Worra and Mrs DV

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 16:34:00

I suppose the brown baby thing is the sort of comment that might put up the hackles up of those who are't actually lliving like I am - where every aspect of my life - my marriage, my children, my work, my neighbours, my community, my children's school, my friendships, IS multicultural and it's not really an 'issue' , its just my normal world, hence me not be guarded about my language

Oh please.

Well Im living like you too and it put my hackles up, because it was a stupid racist thing to say.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:34:48

fromparis I do not for one second think that everyone feels that way but harsh as it is, it IS a reality.

One that should be challenged. Its not ok in most circles to come right out with it these days. Not the way it was 20 years ago. But racism can be insidious too. This whole brown baby thing is part of that subtle stereotyping.

There are feckless black men, there are feckless white men. There are foolish girls who get pregnant by both. But the 'brown baby' is the epitome of chavvy failure.

In the 1950s they were left in Dr Barnardos homes and deemed adoptable. Now they are a symbol for 'Chav'.

How fucking nasty is that?

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 16:36:02

I think I'm going to go all PO arsed over this thread.

It's not even funny if it's a wind up, and posters who declare themselves oh so MC make me cringe.

Ihatemytoes Thu 31-Jan-13 16:36:11

What Mrs deVere said.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:36:32

Hortensia, mate,

where on earth do you think I am living?

With me 5 lickle pickni and ting hmm

MrsD I have 2 mixed race boys. I am actually fuming about this thread. I was fuming quietly but now I will fume out loud.

My eldest is 14. He may well, in fact he does, use street talk with his friends. I hear him on the phone and its all "blud, fam, bare this and that"
His black and mixed race working class friends do the same.

There is no street talk in my house. Ever. And the same goes for his friends. I know this to be true.

As a parent of a mixed race teen boy I am super aware of how he is perceived by people who think they know him.

He can't walk the dogs after dark because he gets stopped by the police. If he is in a park with his friends, more than 3 of them, people assume he is up to no good.

And now the absolute horror that the worst thing that could happen is the ops daughter not having a baby at 14. No, it would be worse if it was my son who got her pregnant.

In reality my son is fucking amazing. He is respectful, decent, well mannered, hard working.
Yep, he uses words I think make him sound like he is a wannabe gangster but not in my house.

In my house, he is repectful.

So no, having a "brown baby" isn't actually something to gasp in horror at.

fromparistoberlin Thu 31-Jan-13 16:38:15

its nasty

I agree

and I am sorry for my posts, really . I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "But the 'brown baby' is the epitome of chavvy failure"

spot on, and sorry again

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:39:19

<links arms with Tantrums and glares the glare of an outraged mother>

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 16:42:19

Surely the op is trying to have us all on ?

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:43:35

It is gracious of you to apologise fromparis.
I really don't think that all white apart from me people are steaming nazis smile

Needingthework Thu 31-Jan-13 16:43:53

I hear you, Tantrums.
Mine are younger, but already DS1 (YR7) had someone at school tell him he speaks 'posh' because he does not say 'innit' and 'blud'. Stereotype, much? hmm

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:46:19

You wait till people start trying to buy drugs off him hmm

I've been permanently outraged for the last 15 years MrsD grin

When dd was born, I was 19. I had been with my now DH for 2 years at that point but it didn't stop people assuming I was a single parent or telling me that DH "is just gonna run off and have a next pickney with a next woman and leave you on your own"

He didn't by the way. We have been together for 17 years. But for some obscure reason people still think it's ok to ask if my children all have the same father? Why would they not have the same father? Why would you even think that?

My ds1 is also asked on a regular basis if he "has a relationship with his father"
To which he replies, "well obviously. We live in the same house"

ILovePonyo Thu 31-Jan-13 16:48:54

Really depressing reading assumptions made about mixed race boys, unfortunately I can believe it too.

Wanted to say sorry to mrsd and tantrums. Not because I do it of course grin but because it's shit angry

ethelb Thu 31-Jan-13 16:49:31

I hear you, Tantrums.
Mine are younger, but already DS1 (YR7) had someone at school tell him he speaks 'posh' because he does not say 'innit' and 'blud'. Stereotype, much?

^^ TBF people said that to me when I was in secondary school and I am white.

NC78 Thu 31-Jan-13 16:49:37

Why would a mixed race girl wear orange foundation?

I think the OP backtracked and claimed her DD was mixed race when she realised she could get away with chav bashing but not racism.

Thought this was bullshit from page 1

So ban me...

Sick of this fucking forum anyway.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 16:49:51

Surely dd would be going to a public school , probably the one mummah went to, where there would be no chavs, no emos,and certainly no boys, only well bought up young ladies wending their way to finishing school what?

ILovePonyo Thu 31-Jan-13 16:50:27

Ha! Good point NC78! I knew this op was bollocks hmm

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 16:51:50

I'm sick of the fucking chav bashing, it's like a sport on MN.

ethelb Thu 31-Jan-13 16:52:36

@suky the OP is a teacher. As the daugher of a teacher (privatly educated) and was state educated in central London. It is quite normal.

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 31-Jan-13 16:53:00

usual where have you been? This threads been on the go since 9.30 am. You're slipping

Not necessarily. My dd went through an "orange" phase.

It didn't suit her. She also went through a phase of straightening her hair every night.
Have you any idea how long it takes to straighten Afro hair with standard ghd straightners???

She gave it up after a few weeks. Her flipping hair was breaking. Now she pays stupid money to have it plaited into more and more elaborate styles.
I did offer to do it for free but no. Not good enough.

That's really sad, tantrums. I was also 19 when I had DS1. And I was a single mother for many, many years. And my children do have different fathers. But no one asks me or my kids any of those questions or makes assumptions about us (even ones that would be accurate). It's horrible that you've had to put up with that kind of crap.

Needingthework Thu 31-Jan-13 16:54:59

Well, quite, ethelb, although why a child should be considered posh for speaking properly for whatever reason is still odd. However, I know this was linked to DS1's race in his case (he told me the full story)

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 16:55:08

Every other thread on baby names is chav this and chav that.

Not everyone on MN is a nice MC boden wearing, university educated ,leafy suburb dwelling mother.

Gets right on my council estate tits. <adds vinegar to chip on shoulder>

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 16:55:51

I had to go to work, Funnys. In my WC chavvy job.

sukysue Thu 31-Jan-13 16:57:25

Really eth words fail me surely one would have put ones dd in the best school money could buy. Well op is asking for it if she sends her to a state school especially in London, unless of course it's a pretend state school, like what Tony Blair sent his child to of course, tally ho.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 16:57:25

tantrums me too!
I thought ALL pregnant mothers were asked if their children had the same father. Until I spoke to my sister who was pg at the same time. She looked at me like this hmm

Sometimes it is a medical question. Mostly people are being nosy and basically wanting to find evidence to further entrench their prejudice.

So now I say 'why do you need to know that?'. If they have a good reason they will share it, if they don't they make weird noises and change the subject.

YY to the 'does he see his dad much?' <head on one side, concerned look>

I have a particularly old fashioned look reserved for anyone who uses the term Baby Daddy or Baby Mother when referring to me or my OH.

NC78 Thu 31-Jan-13 16:58:00

That's why I am getting sick of this place usualsuspect. I can't stand those chav name threads - my DD's name has come up as a chav stripper name a few times.

ethelb Thu 31-Jan-13 16:58:46

@needingthework Considering someone posh for speaking 'properly' and not dressing up "as a chav" etc is pretty normal for secondary school surely? It was the defining characteristic of my education.

If someone is making comments about your son's race you need to report it to the school or the police.

EldritchCleavage Thu 31-Jan-13 16:59:44

*and by saying "Because black boys are seen as sexual aggressors and baby fathers who will groom, abuse and leave those pretty middle class girls with a baby and a few bruises."

thats fucking HARSH! please dont assume that people think like that, please*

BUT THEY DO. No good wishing it away, it's real. Wind up or no, I agree with everything Mrs DV has said.

And as for:

I suppose the brown baby thing is the sort of comment that might put up the hackles up of those who are't actually lliving like I am - where every aspect of my life - my marriage, my children, my work, my neighbours, my community, my children's school, my friendships, IS multicultural and it's not really an 'issue' , its just my normal world, hence me not be guarded about my language

I'm mixed race, living a very multi-cultural life, and my hackles are well and truly up.

Needingthework Thu 31-Jan-13 17:02:25

Already done, but being as this will be the first of many ignorant comments he will no doubt come across in his life, I have told him how to handle them with dignity.
Can't go running to the school every time a casual racist comment is made.

Still, it is better than in my day...

HyvaPaiva Thu 31-Jan-13 17:02:39

I thought by specifying 'brown baby' the OP's daughter is saying she doesn't want a white baby and that only a 'brown baby' would be good enough for her. The 'brown baby' wasn't the OP's 'horror' but the daughter's desire, right?

FunnysInLaJardin Thu 31-Jan-13 17:02:52

grin usual <tries to imagine what a WC chavvy job actually comprises>

I used to do nights at Walkers packing crisps, maybe that would qualify?

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 17:03:52

No. I don't think that is right Hyva

Baby mother and baby father and the 2 words that I hate most in the world. MrsD
Someone said to DH once "is that your baby mama?"

He looked at him and said "no, this is my wife"

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 17:05:28

Holey fuck! I only read one page but i really sympathise! I don't have teenagers yet but i have those fears. Im the same in that if my children were goths i would be cool about it but chavs?!

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 17:11:48

There are worse things that could happen.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 17:13:00

I thought by specifying 'brown baby' the OP's daughter is saying she doesn't actually want a baby, she just wants another fashion accessory.

So much the same as only white vans trainers would do, only a brown baby would do.

Thereby implying that she doesn't care about having a baby in a loving relationship and that she doesn't realise the actual impact of a baby. She just wants it to be 'cool'.

I didn't see it as derogatory. Am I wrong?

andubelievedthat Thu 31-Jan-13 17:15:27

"Absolutely Fabulous" u should take your lead from patsy from that show along the lines of " if u can"t beat her, join her "

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 17:18:17

True that worse things can happen.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 17:19:25

Well yes they can, but that could be said of most problems.

It's hardly helpful is it?

Lilka Thu 31-Jan-13 17:20:30

Only read the first and last pages

But I'm smiling at a number of posters saying things along the lines of 'I wish my daughter would rebel as a goth or even an emo....', 'I'd be secretly happy if DD rebelled and became a goth'

I think you might have missed the meaning of the word 'rebellion' - you ain't supposed to (even secretly) like it grin

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 17:21:56

It's not exactly a rebellion if your parents want you to be a goth.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 31-Jan-13 17:23:47

Its helpful if you use that thought to get this chav phase into perspective (fingers crossed that its a phase!)

KirstyoffEastenders Thu 31-Jan-13 17:24:09

My sister was the same when she was a teenager, although it wasn't the sarf London and R&B rubbish, this was the early nineties, but she wanted to be in with the 'cool' girls who all dressed the same, affected their accents to basically sound thick and didn't do any schoolwork. It wore off when she started college when she, coincidentally, turned goth and went completely the other way. Now she's a very middle class feminist with her own problem teenage daughter grin

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 17:25:14

That comment comes from the mother of five wc brown babies, one of them who died just as she reached her teens.
At the end of a long, long thread full of MC horror at the idea of a girl wanting a brown baby and who is going through a phase of looking a bit working class.

So no, probably not that helpful but this is hardly a thread full of people reaching out for support is it?

If the OP was saying 'I think my DD has dyslexia' me saying 'there are worse things that could happen' would be inappropriate.
On a thread were someone is expressing horror that her child may not be rebel in a sufficiently cool way, I think it is pretty apt.

HyvaPaiva Thu 31-Jan-13 17:26:16

MrsDeVere, I meant the daughter sees a 'brown baby' as a fashion accessory that a white baby wouldn't be to her. I thought it was the daughter making it a race issue not the mother. I realise now I didn't point out that I find that derogatory. I certainly do and in any case feel bad for a child born as an 'accessory' for its parent.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 17:29:04

MN is full of people expressing minor problems as the end of the world. If we used 'worse things can happen' as a response to all those threads,MN would die.

It ranks alongside this as a response.

thebody Thu 31-Jan-13 17:32:20

I find wine helps op.

. It got me through the dss teen years and its a welcome old friend back again as dds are 12 and 13..

We had goth,emo, plain unwashed and a spell of gangsta with lads.

Now my once little princesses could walk into a poll dancing club and merge in the crowd!

Cheers!

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 17:34:17

"Why would a mixed race girl wear orange foundation?"

Because she's very fair skinned!

This thread has gone a bit off piste over the last hour or so, and I haven't been able to post much as my broadband has been down.

I really AM a genuine poster, and if I wasn't worried about dd seeing this thread (she's been known to stalk me on mumsnet looking for ammunition for arguments - even giving that detail will out me for a few people here) I'd have posted it under my normal user name.

Re: the frothing about dd being racist for saying she wants a 'brown baby' - Almost all her friends are mixed race or full Caribbean and they talk about colour and complexion in a fairly casual way, where adults and people who are more thoughtful or inhibited about discussing skin colour wouldn't. If they're trying to identify someone to a friend they'll ALWAYS mention skin colour in the first sentence - 'You know that black girl in 9E - the really 'blick' one?', or 'That black girl, the one who's sort of medium, the one who's light skinned with natural hair'. They are definitely DOWN on paleness, EXCEPT in mixed race people. So white people with really fair skin - they'll mention it and laugh about it. Or people with really dark skin. Yes - it is really politically incorrect, but that IS how they talk. Sadly I DO think there is quite a lot of casual racism in her peer group - dd is quite ignorant about people from other cultures, despite living in a multi-cultural community. Almost all her friends were born in the UK and consider themselves English - Caribbean English mostly, but English. But then she's ignorant about a lot of things because she is so absorbed in her own little world, which is what we're so troubled by. She doesn't read. She doesn't watch the news. She won't engage in conversation with us about wider issues.

Re: black boys and fatherhood - this is another whole issue. MrsDeVere - I know what you're saying about assumptions and how unkind and unfair they are, but I've recently read some research which flags up that nearly two thirds of all black children in the UK are being raised in single parent (overwhelmingly mothers) households, so maybe that's why HP's get sucked in to stereotyping. There are other issues about what is happening with working class black boys in the UK that are deeply troubling - this thread isn't a place to discuss them really, but I see the reality in my own community and it's very, very sad and worrying. In my personal circle of friends all the black and mixed race families I know are solid - but the kids my dd is mixing with, boys included, are NOT from stable and secure families and it worries me that MY values - which include the primary one of fathers being absolutely of prime importance to children - are not those that are shared by her peer group.

whiteflame Thu 31-Jan-13 17:34:52

This is a bizarre thread, especially earlier on. What's so funny? Seems depressing to me.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 17:41:02

MrsDeVere - my 'issue' is that my daughter is adopting the values and lifestyle of a group of people who on the whole are ignorant and who underachieve in education.

Are you really saying that I shouldn't be bothered by it?

Her appearance isn't really an issue - teenagers usually dress badly, it goes with the territory.

But I AM actually upset and worried by her not valuing education, and by her rejection of all the things I think are good in our lifestyle (namely decent, healthy food, social justice issues, an interest in the wider world and culture outside the absolute mainstream).

I knew I was going to take a bashing on here. I'm not going to let it bother me.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 17:42:18

whiteflame it started off with me posting in a lighthearted way about something that I was actually quite bothered about.

I'm not alone in trying to laugh at the things which make me sad. It's a coping mechanism you know!

Pigsmummy Thu 31-Jan-13 17:47:33

Sorry to sound like an outrageous snob but it comes down to where you live, who her friends are and how impressionable the child is. My colleague has four children, has a good career, salary etc and when it came to buying a family home he had to relocate fairly rough part of London, as it was the only place they could afford a house to fit them all in. Since then they have struggled to recognise the teenagers that their once lovely, stable children have become. The language is so "street" that they havent a clue what is being said, the children are "known" to the local police and my lovely colleague is at his wits end. There is now a grandchild too. (offspring of their 15 year old).

He sat down with the youngest two to attempt to stop bad behaviour before it sets in and they told him that they were bullied so had changed their language etc to fit in. If they weren't in a gang they would be easy prey etc. He has stayed close to them, been on their case about school work, He told them what is and isn't acceptable at home, homework mandatory, attendance at school, acceptable clothing/makeup etc but is also understanding about how tough it can be and has spoken to them about scary stuff like weapons, drugs, sex etc things he was oblivious to before, he also said that if times get scary for them he can take them out of school, which I think came as a releif to the youngest more. All you can do is similar, she is 14 and trying to fit in, you can insist on certain things and can set boundaries. As for the make up what is the schools policy? For clothing you can have some say as surely you are paying for it? Hopefully you are just encountering a wilful teen and I hope that I haven't scared you too much!

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 17:48:28

Not many 14 year olds are interested in the wider world IMO.

That comes later.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 17:48:37

Bollocks carried

This is NOT, I repeat NOT a support thread.

It is AIBU. This is not a woman at the end of her rope with a teenage tearaway. The OP is written in a comical style and invites lighthearted responses.

So stop homing in on ONE of my responses. A response which I feel is perfectly appropriate if someone's worst fear is having a teen who wants to be a chav for a couple of years.

The poster who expressed that dread happens to agree with me. Its you who is getting the nadge on about it.

whiteflame Thu 31-Jan-13 17:49:24

I was meaning all the posters saying various bits and pieces were funny Hortensia, not your OP.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 17:51:10

so pigs you think all that is down to living somewhere a bit rough? Really?
Jesus. I am the last to lay blame at the feet of parents when it comes to teenage behaviour but I really think you have gone a bit far in the other direction.

It is this sort of fear and demonization of the WC that makes people think that being 'hilarious' about chavs and brown babies is acceptable.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 17:53:24

Hortensia if you read my posts you will answer your own questions. No need for me to repeat.

And FYI I don't think anyone is frothing about your DD being racist.

ubik Thu 31-Jan-13 17:56:41

Hortensia - I do think that underneath it all she will be absorbing your values and those if your friends, she will see the solid relationships, the nice life you have together. As she gets older she will get wise to her friends' lifestyles.
I guess you have to trust that she is bright enough to eventually see through this street culture, she is still very young and naive.

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 17:58:49

It's the attitude that living in a 'rough area' means all our kids will be wild. That annoys me.

Well I can tell you a few stories about some nice MC kids and their drug habits etc if you want.

TattyDevine Thu 31-Jan-13 18:00:08

I would like to vouch for the OPs genuineness (is that a word?)

I know the OP, though I have never met her in real life, but I know all her other names, and I am interested in everything she posts because I know her fairly well from a different forum years ago, and I always enjoyed her writing style, even though some of what she says is controversial, and she presents a very intelligent debate on a variety of topics that have been of interest to me over the past few years. For this reason I remember most her posts. In fact, I recognised her because of her writing style quite quicky and there are no continuity issues whatsoever, down to the Autistic younger brother, heritage of husband, geography of where she lives, skin colour of middle child, enjoyment of fried chicken by spirited daughter, etc etc.

She is by no means racist, of that I can 100% vouch, and everything she has said is consistent with what I know of her life and her previous posts.

I think on Mumsnet people are so scared of looking silly by believing a troll that they just can't believe that strange and unpredictable things can happen to people during their lifetime and they might actually want to talk about them!

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 18:00:14

"And now the absolute horror that the worst thing that could happen is the ops daughter not having a baby at 14. No, it would be worse if it was my son who got her pregnant."

Have I missed something about having a mixed race baby being bad or something?

I put DD's comment in to illustrate how superficial and immature her attitude towards parenthood is! Not to bemoan the horror of her having a baby who is the same as her dad!

coraltoes Thu 31-Jan-13 18:02:29

Move. Honestly, move the fuck away from your rough bit of London.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 18:02:49

I'm working class. I live in a rough area. I'm scared my dd's will turn into the sort the OP describes.

I only have to stand at the primary school gates to see this behaviour depicted in the parents of my dd's peers.

I'd be a fool not to be worried. It's going to take a lot on my part to try and make sure they don't.

That isn't to say there isn't MC kids with problems. I couldn't give a stuff about that though.

I just care about the problems that living in this area will cause my dd's.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:03:34

Usual. I have already stated my wish to inflict violence on some of the parents of DS's MC friends.

I didn't of course. Nor would I dream of holding them and their lax parenting values entirely responsible for the actions of my oldest boy. Let us just say that they didn't help much.

It pretty hard explaining to a 15 year old why he cant go to a rock festival 200 miles away when his peers are being given £300 and an 'off you go darling' by their parents.

Or trying to drum into him the dangers of getting involved with drugs when his peer's parents think its a good idea to expose their mid-teens to a bit of recreational weed smoking hmm

superstarheartbreaker Thu 31-Jan-13 18:03:59

YABU to call someone who behaves in the way your dd does a chav...isn't that a bit classist? You are being reasonable to be gutted that she dosn't have high expectations of herself and wants to get pregnant young. Nowt wrong with a brown baby though...I've got one. Why on earth would you want your dd to be a grungy goth though??? hmm. Don't get me wrong; I was a hippy but I am now reluctant to identify with any kind of clique. I wouldn't want my dd to dress like a vampire and hang out in grave yards any more than I'd want her to start emulating Vicki Pollard!

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:04:53

We all care carried.
None of us think that lack of aspiration is a Good Thing.

I am objecting to the stereotypes and assumptions being made and the attempts to justify them.

TattyDevine Thu 31-Jan-13 18:05:50

That's right OP, I read the reference to the brown baby as you banging your head against a brick wall because not only does she want to have a baby as an ambition at such a young age, but she sees it as a fashion accessory - if she didn't, she possibly wouldn't have a preference for what colour it is (or the deepness of that particular colour) grin

This could have been me a few years ago. Parents night was a hoot as they struggled to understand DD wasn't living rough wink
DS is a blazer toting prefect with shiny shoes and shinier hair, they couldn't be more different.
However, she's finally ditched Adidas and now has moved on, she even wears skirts to school these days.
Not that I had purple crimped hair and wore only black at her age, or anything.....

TattyDevine Thu 31-Jan-13 18:07:21

Like having a preference for what Von Dutch t shirt you shoplift (or whatever the urm, chavs are wearing these days) <<old gimmer>>

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:08:56

Just checking.

It is ok to object and discuss why we object, to something?
It is not always the OP, often it is the way the thread develops and subsequent posts.

There is a lot of 'I have/she has been called racist' being thrown about.

Not by me.

I do not like the inference at teenage pregnancy is made worse if the baby is black.

Sympathy for you OP. It's a bit far off for us yet but I can't even imagine what I would do in your shoes.

At least goths/hippy/alternative types have more of an ethos of being 'clued up' about their culture or interests. ie: Poe/Green Values/Unicyling?.
'Chav' doesn't have a great cultural background.

ROFL at tatty being able to recognise you from your daughter's 'enjoyment of fried chicken'.

So many one liners on this thread. You poor sod wink

Theicingontop Thu 31-Jan-13 18:10:10

Oh did this turn into accusing the OP of being racist? Thought it might...

TattyDevine Thu 31-Jan-13 18:10:22

Its not made worse if the baby is black. Its made worse if the baby is seen as a fashion accesory by their teenage mother who hasn't possibly really thought through the fact that a child is not a fashion accessory.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 18:10:37

MrsDeVere - They don't understand. They don't want to understand. They are just relieved they don't have to worry about things like this.

They believe 'goth' or 'emo' is the worse that can happen.

Then they read a thread like this and it rocks their world so they get even more MC trying to convince themselves it couldn't happen to their babies.

Pigsmummy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:12:20

I think that the OP is getting a tough time here when all she is expressing is that she wants the best for her daughter and is worried about some of the behaviours that her DD is exhibiting. It wasnt meant to make anyo e defensive or to slight anyone was it?

Surely as mothers we unite on that? That we want the the best for our offspring?

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 18:13:24

The worst influence on my Ds was a MC boy who lived in a big fuck off house in the best area in my town.

But his parents were oh so respectable, so thats ok then?

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 18:14:31

Why is Emo so good? Has no one heard of self harm???

The 'poshest' area in our district has the highest callout drug busts etc. and it's also the only place with it's own needle exchange centre.

Go figure!

Money doesn't provide morals or ethics. This affects us all in one way or another.

CarriedAwayAnnie - Emo is a type of music and dress style. You don't have to be 'emo' to self harm.

Ah yes I think I remember previous posts about your dd now you've mentioned the Internet stalking

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 18:17:57

Thank you Tatty! smile That other forum seems a loooong time ago. Hell, it WAS a long time ago!

Superstar - can't think of any other way to describe her style/values. Would you object to me describing someone as a 'sloane ranger'? Stereotypes can be quite useful as a sort of social shorthand sometimes. As long as we understand that we are ACTUALLY talking about an individual here.....

MrsDeVere - wanted to pick up on your comment about everyone seeing black men as sexual aggressors.

I wonder how much hip-hop and R&B culture contributes to this very negative stereotype, because in the UK it's far and away the most visible aspect of black culture.

I listen to a lot of R&B (because my children out vote us in the car on which radio station to play) and I'm horrified by how hypersexualised so much of this music is. I only need to watch 10 minutes of R&B and Rap video favourites on Viva before I come over all Andrea Dworkin. Caribbean and black US youth culture - as it's expressed in South London comps with a predominantly Caribbean/African intake - is very macho, sexist, homophobic, and frantically consumerist. I fucking loath it, and took DD out of her mixed comp in favour of a girls school partly because I was deeply bothered by the way girls were spoken to, talked about and treated by boys. It bothered dd as well - she got into a lot of fights with boys there, and had some really horrible things said to her that impacted on her self-esteem.

I know I'm showing my age now, but when I think about black music in the 1970's and 1980's - how whimsical, romantic, melodic, and political a lot of Caribbean music was, well, a lot of modern mainstream black music infuriates me. I fucking hate the values it celebrates.

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 18:19:09

Emos and Goths are having underage sex and taking drugs, just like the Chavs.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 18:20:16

I think it means a lot more than that to the teenagers that relate to the Emo way of life

Pigsmummy Thu 31-Jan-13 18:20:38

MrsD, my friend feels that he didn't equip his DC's with the skills and support to live in the community that they found themselves in (the children didnt have a say in where they lived) a community that he moved his family into but didn't actually get involved with (he is now) he believed that the only change would be his commute to the office and a different school name for the children when in fact it was far tougher than that for the children, so yes it is to do with area. Teenagers are impressionable, feel a need to fit in and don't want to become a target. The crime rate in the area that they live in is one of the highest, so yes it was more likely that they would encounter crime. Basic statistics

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 18:22:33

Teenagers pick a tribe.

They grow out of it.

jellytotsarebadforyou Thu 31-Jan-13 18:26:36

agree with usual, she is 14 and wants to belong and be the same as her peers. She isn't really doing anything that awful is she? she sounds okay to me <shrugs>

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:26:41

But pigs where does that leave children from WC homes who do NOT end up the way your friend's children do (and I sympathise, I really do)?
They are in the vast majority.

They face the same challenges with less resources. They don't all end up pregnant and in prison.

It cannot be blamed on the area. There are multitude of factors that contribute to a family becoming a 'problem family' (not my label, thank Cameron for that).

CarriedAway - There's not really an 'emo' way of life.
It's catering predominantly to tweens. Sort of goth/pop/metal/lite.
Most of them grow out of it and either move back to mainstream or get into proper metal etc.
To be fair, the whole 'emo' thing is more or less dead anyway. Just another fashion like punks, new romantics, ravers etc.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:30:04

hortensia please read my posts before reacting to them.
At NO point in this thread have I stated that 'all' people see black men in that way.

It is hard to have a discussion with someone who keeps misquoting me.

You keep responding to the post you think I have written.

MissBetseyTrotwood Thu 31-Jan-13 18:33:12

I've got a Sarf London accent. Bit like Ken Livingstone - nasal and all. I'm an English teacher tho y'know! There is hope.

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 18:33:18

It's mainly gangsta around here. Hoodies, fake London accents and slack pants.

The ones that don't fit take the metal/emo route. From what I've seen this isn't particularly healthy either eg Isolation, self harm.

Can't speak for the rest of the country.

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:38:35

We can agree about the RnB thing hortensia.
But I will not accept that it is part of my DC's culture.

Their culture is their ethnic heritage from both sides. This includes food, music, the bad bits and the good bits of history.

The subsection of RnB that celebrates misogyny and violence is not part of that.
It is our job to instill that in our DCs. We cannot tell them 'you must not like that music'.

We can refuse to buy into the bollocks that 'its your culture'.

Anymore than The Osmonds are a vital part of white uk culture. Can you imagine?

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 18:40:00

carried. I steered DS towards rock music because I wanted to avoid the whole gansta thing.

He started hanging with the emo/goth crowd. It was a disaster. A horrible disaster.

rhondajean Thu 31-Jan-13 18:42:05

Oh I love my dd1 the little Emo/goth kid that she is. This is my worst nightmare - because u could never relate to this kid.

I do kinda let dd1 think I think she looks vaguely ridiculous so she thinks she's rebelling grin

rhondajean Thu 31-Jan-13 18:43:03

I could sorry, some of "u " might be Able to!

AmberLeaf Thu 31-Jan-13 18:53:10

Yes fromparistoberlin good of you to apologies smile

Hey, don't diss the Osmonds Mrs DeV - Donny was my first love grin

lurkerspeaks Thu 31-Jan-13 19:00:38

Don't despair. My sister did this - l'coq sportif tracksuit (yellow) and shitty addidas trainers, massively white make up (this was pre the orange thing) and huge amounts of eyeliner.

Asked my parents if we could move to the local council estate from our naice suburban 5 bedded home etc.

The only difference is that she had the wit to see that getting pregnant was not going to be a good move. She also did bugger all at school but miraculously pulled brilliant grades out of the hat (entirely unexpectedly) and consequently went off to a russell group university after an alternative gap year of living with her dosser boyfriend and his druggy mates.

15 years later she still dresses alternatively (tattoos and piercings) but is a well respected professional who is an expert at covering up her tattoos when required (300 denier tights exist....). She speaks posh Scottish like the rest of the family and chameleons into street speak at work. As do I. It goes down better!

Nothing my parents did made an difference except indoctrinate the possibilities that education affords.

Arisbottle Thu 31-Jan-13 19:17:16

I read the first 2/3 of this thread in horror that people were finding this funny. So glad some common sense kicked in and people popped in to say this is a very poor and rather offensive attempt at humour.

Stop fretting that your child may have caught working class and just make her behave. f this thread is real, which I doubt.

themottledcat Thu 31-Jan-13 19:27:55

I think there is a problem of ineffectual parenting.

Also is she (the child) really being annoying or is she just doing it to wind the liberal parents up? Sounds like she is doing a good job.

Why doesn't she watch the news, read??? Why haven't the parents done something about it??

BTW I have had 3 teens. They have not been perfect children.

Mrs De Vere sounds like she could give some parenting tips tbh.

I don't find it funny. I find it depressing. See my earlier post.

Is reminding me of that woman who wrote 'Living with Teenagers' in the Guardian and we all know how that ended......

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 19:32:59

"hortensia please read my posts before reacting to them.
At NO point in this thread have I stated that 'all' people see black men in that way"

It is hard to have a discussion with someone who keeps misquoting me."

Mrs DeVere - this is your comment - c&p: "Because black boys are seen as sexual aggressors and baby fathers who will groom, abuse and leave those pretty middle class girls with a baby and a few bruises"

You haven't qualified your statement so you leave yourself open to the accusation that you believe everyone stereotypes black men.

Arisbottle - thanks for your common sense advice. Other than grounding her, removing her phone, buying her books and encouraging her to read them, insisting on regular, supervised homework slots at home, keeping in touch with her school, checking her homework diary every day, encouraging her to go to bed at a sensible time, picking her up EVERY time she's rude, - all of which things we already do - what do you suggest we do to make our dd ambitious, polite, open minded and hard working? <stands ready with pen and paper>

Springdiva Thu 31-Jan-13 19:34:14

I would've taken the 'looking too posh' problem she has with your outfit, OP, and gone to an extreme. Over dress totally then make a deal with her to tone it down if she will compromise over something too.
I would also take her out of the neighbourhood on a great holiday eg skiing, USA, Africa just to let her see there is a GREAT world outside her normal day to day life and maybe having a baby won't seem like THE thing she wants to do.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 19:34:40

"Why doesn't she watch the news, read???"

She doesn't want to. Should I superglue her to the sofa and make her? hmm

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 19:35:36

"I would also take her out of the neighbourhood on a great holiday eg skiing, USA, Africa just to let her see there is a GREAT world outside her normal day to day life"

If we had any money we'd do this too.

smile

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 19:39:46

Do many 14 year olds watch the news?

I don't think so.

noddyholder Thu 31-Jan-13 19:40:03

You think you have problems my ds is pure Made in Chelsea

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 19:41:01

"The subsection of RnB that celebrates misogyny and violence is not part of that.
It is our job to instill that in our DCs. We cannot tell them 'you must not like that music'.

We can refuse to buy into the bollocks that 'its your culture'."

Errr, I don't tell her 'this is your music'. Or that she shouldn't like it.

But in the same way that the Velvet Underground and Talking Heads were 'my music' - in the sense that I saw them as the soundtrack to my growing up, bloody Nicki Minaj and Lil' Wayne are the soundtrack to her growing up, and she fucking LOVES them and identifies with the songs and the bands.

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 19:41:46

My Ds was an Emo.

He was a lazy sod at school too.

themottledcat Thu 31-Jan-13 19:42:08

She could just loll round in the room you are in while you watch the news......something may catch her attention.....

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 19:42:49

She is not you.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 19:43:46

"my ds is pure Made in Chelsea"

dd shouted 'I'm going to ruin you at me over her shoulder as she bolted up the stairs the other day after I confiscated her phone. Thanks TOWIE!

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 19:45:04

themottledcat - if she's in the same room as us and the TV it's because a TV show she wants to watch is on. Otherwise she's in another room.

Arisbottle Thu 31-Jan-13 19:46:11

There is not one set way to motivate or discipline a child, but we have one daughter who is something of a handful.

Two things work with our younger daughter , in terms of sanctions, taking her phone for a significant period of time and banning friends. She misbehaved once at school and she was grounded to an empty room for a week, and then grounded with some privileges returned for the second.

In terms of rewards my daughter loves to go a rather posh gym, she can only go of she has achieved so many points for good behaviour , spending time on homework etc. This also helped with her weight.

She was a fan of orange makeup, I took her for a makeup lesson in a department store and treated her.

She also went through a phase of not reading, I bought her a kindle, that worked for a while then I tried audiobooks with her which got her back into reading. I also read the same book so that we can discuss it.

My dd is ambitious because she likes nice things in life and realizes that she needs to work for them. her nice things may not be nice by MN standards but she is happy and driven and that is enough for me.

Arisbottle Thu 31-Jan-13 19:46:53

You also did not start a thread asking for parenting advice, you started a rather ill judged thread designed to take the piss out of others choices.

Arisbottle Thu 31-Jan-13 19:48:56

Why not ban programmes like TOWIE? Of course that is difficult to police outside of the home but you can control what is in the television in your house .

Springdiva Thu 31-Jan-13 19:54:12

Well, spend a day in Edinburgh during the festival very international, lots of street performers or tour round Ireland on a camping holiday (haven't done this but imagine it being friendly and fun)- where do you usually holiday?

CarriedAwayAnnie Thu 31-Jan-13 19:55:57

I'll be dammed if Towie or the like will ever be watched in this house.

StickEmUp Thu 31-Jan-13 19:57:04

OP why in Gods name did you ever think this thread wouldnt provoke the reactions you've got.

ubik Thu 31-Jan-13 19:58:30

At least it's not Geordie Shores grin

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 20:00:16

Come off it hortensia. You are being disingenuous and you know it.

Me stating that a certain group are 'seen as'. Is NOT the same as saying 'Everyone thinks that'.

And if you look a little further down the thread the qualification you seek is there, quite clearly stated.

I have a suspicion you are annoyed at me for spoiling your fun a little. Fair enough but lets not make stuff up.

themottledcat Thu 31-Jan-13 20:01:01

Oh I expect she will pull herself together, get stellar GCSEs, end up at Oxbridge (as you say, the school is fine really). I am bored with this now especially as you still seem to find it faintly amusing.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 20:02:07

Spring diva - great idea! I will look into that.

Arid bottle - 'ill-advised'? Arf. What are you? The AIBU commandant overseeing that standards of propriety on the boards?

MrsDeVere Thu 31-Jan-13 20:03:11

Jesus OP. You seem to have real problems processing the information in my posts.

I told you that you tell your kids that RnB is their culture? Really.

And there was I thinking I was agreeing with you about something.

I have really pissed you off haven't I?

Arisbottle Thu 31-Jan-13 20:08:23

What am I? Just a working class mother who is managing quite fine to raise a family of aspiration all children, despite their accents, white bread, jogging bottoms, mascara etc.

I am someone who sees the term chav as absolutely vile and designed to demonise people like my family.

I am also someone who feels quite sad that you would be surprise that a teacher would find your daughter charming.

I am someone who finds it endlessly amusing that MNers live in fear of not being seen as MC.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 20:08:26

Mrsdevere - your comment suggests you believe the view that black men are sexually aggressive is very widely held.

It's YOU being disingenuous - you are not picking over the wording when the sentiment is largely the same.

I made nothing up - I quoted your words. I have no problem with you 'spoiling my fun'. AIBU is seething with self righteous and judgemental people and I knew full well that there would be posters here criticising my parenting and making critical assumptions about my values on the basis of my OP. As far as I'm concerned its all fair game.

HortensiaPollard Thu 31-Jan-13 20:09:07

Nit picking that is.

Fecking phone.

usualsuspect Thu 31-Jan-13 20:10:21

'I am someone who finds it endlessly amusing that MNers live in fear of not being seen as MC.'

This.

thegreylady Thu 31-Jan-13 20:11:10

When my dc were growing up I reckoned I was unshockable-bring it on I thought.As teens they could wear what they liked drink if they must even a bit of pot would have occasioned no more than a 'not in the house dear'. Boyfriends,girlfriends gay or straight I would embrace their individuality.Their dad died when they were 12 and 16 I wanted them to trust and confide in me.
Only two things-just two I felt I couldnt handle.One was smoking and the other was tattoos.
Need I go on-they were convention personified but both smoked although dd stopped before she had dc1 [at 32]. Ds still smokes though not with me.
At 21 dd had a gap year and came back with two small tattoos.Ds treated himself to an enormous tattoo for his 40th birthday.
They bide their time then they strike!

HortensiaPollard