in thinking this is fraud and not right?

(72 Posts)
sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:00:14

Yesterday I was talking to some family members first about the cost of nursery care and X (let's call her) was moaning how last week she had to pay £137 to the nursery. I was agreeing saying it is costly I know people who pay £1000 a month. She is lucky in that her MIL does half her childcare as well and she sends her DS to nursery when she's not at work to get a break.

Anyway Y (her partner) then says that he's lost his job, I'm commiserating with them, hope you find something soon etc he then says he has to go and sign on today. I said "how can you, you live with X she's working FT" turns out he has never legally moved out his mothers house! He moved into a flat with X 9 years ago and they bought another house 7 years ago (I thought together) but its all in her name. He's had periods of unemployment in that time and has claimed everytime saying he still lives at home.

I said you can't do that that's fraud but then they said but he's paid his taxes he's entitled. Turns out he claimed for ONE week in between jobs not that long ago, he finished one job knew he was starting another and still claimed.

Y said she would lovd him to be a SAHD but they can't afford it, he likes to go to the pub, buy clothes etc and she can't afford to give him money for that. I don't get the destitute thing as they then said they bought a new sofa and stuff for the house with his redundancy (bear in mind he claimed for that one week).

It just strikes me that they feel so entitled and are actually greedy. They aren't skint they have the usual Sky, iPhones, new car etc

blankenburg Mon 28-Jan-13 15:12:43

Im pretty sure you can still claim jsa even if your partner is working.

VinegarTits Mon 28-Jan-13 15:17:50

i thought the same as blankenburg

also, im pretty sure its none of your business smile

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:18:52

Can you?

they were agreeing that it was fraudulent, if he could claim it legally why say he still lives with his mother?

So as a SAHM looking for a job I could claim JSA?

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:20:18

Yes you are right it is none of my business, but you've never hocked your judges pants up at apparent benefit cheats?

courtsareadisgrace Mon 28-Jan-13 15:20:57

If he's been paying National Insurance then surely he can get contribution based JSA?

diddl Mon 28-Jan-13 15:21:25

Why can´t he sign on?

That´s assuming he is available & looking for work?
(If that´s still the criteria)

Surely any fraud would be anything she´s getting as a single resident & not declaring that he lives there when she should?

fubbsy Mon 28-Jan-13 15:21:50

There are two types of JSA. One is 'income based' and he probably wouldn't be entitled if his partner works full time The other is 'contribution based' and he would be entitled if he had made enough NI contributions in the past.

aldiwhore Mon 28-Jan-13 15:22:26

It was always the done thing to sign on between jobs in some trades...

They are guilty of telling you too much about stuff that is none of your business. You're guilty of judging them on the information they've offered.

My golden rule is to keep my private life private, and put my fingers in my ears and sing la la la when people want to tell me about theirs. Even close friends. Unless they need my help I don't want to know.

VinegarTits Mon 28-Jan-13 15:22:51

you situation is different though, you have to be paying NI for so long to be entitled to JSA, are you paying NI?

no i havent, i tend to live to keep out of other peoples business whether they are claiming benefits or not

Groovee Mon 28-Jan-13 15:23:03

You can sign on even if one person is full time. It also gives you your national insurance stamp.

But it is fraud to not say he's living with his partner and claim to live elsewhere.

Lyrasilvertongued Mon 28-Jan-13 15:23:48

You can, in Scotland anyway, everything is means tested - my DH was made redundant, I work f/t and he was still able to claim.

BoysWillGrow Mon 28-Jan-13 15:25:50

If you live with your partner and they work full time you can't claim JSA as they are suppose to support you.

meditrina Mon 28-Jan-13 15:25:58

It's not necessarily fraud.

It could be contributions-based JSA, or he could be signing on in order to receive the NI credit even if he does not qualify for the cash element of income-based.

usualsuspect Mon 28-Jan-13 15:28:15

He is entitled to JSA even if she works full time.

So keep your beak out.

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:29:48

I stand corrected though, I know nothing about claiming etc but the way they were saying "oh look at us were claiming when we shouldn't be, even saying that he had to lie to the woman in the benefits office as he knew her and she was asking him if he was living in one town but he's supposed to be living in another".

If someone tells you they are claiming when they shouldn't be you kind of believe them.

I dont see why they have to say they aren't living together then

But as I've been told none of my business really. Always surprises me when people divulge the ins and outs of their finances.

axure Mon 28-Jan-13 15:30:20

Report them on the benefit cheats hotline, the DSS can investigate whether it is fraud or not.

Groovee Mon 28-Jan-13 15:32:48

If it's bothering you that much report them. The government want you to as it saves them money x

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:35:56

I won't report them as others have said they probably are entitled to it and as I've been told its none of my business anyway. Either they are entitled or if not they can live with the guilt of maybe getting caught or whatever.

Just surprised me them bragging about claiming he has never lived there etc if your going to falsely claim why brag about it?

nickelbabe Mon 28-Jan-13 15:37:28

"turns out he has never legally moved out his mothers house! He moved into a flat with X 9 years ago and they bought another house 7 years ago (I thought together) but its all in her name. He's had periods of unemployment in that time and has claimed everytime saying he still lives at home."
yeah, that's pretty much fraud.

you can't claim you're living at an address you don't live at. for any reasons.

nickelbabe Mon 28-Jan-13 15:40:57

oh, but it's none of your business, but you know that, right?

You can claim contributions based JSA if your partner is working, but only for a certain length of time, and it's usually done if you have savings, not that you're trying to get extra money even though you have a working partner.

the Benefits Agency will class them as a couple, if they investigated him,they would find that he is lying about living at his parents' house (they do check up - I have had visits from the BA to check that I'm not a lesbian couple with my housemate when claiming before)

nickelbabe Mon 28-Jan-13 15:41:45

PS: if you have any doubt, please do report them.

it might be none of your business, but really, it is everyone's business to fight benefit fraud.
if it's allowed and genuine, they've got nothing to worry about, have they.

badtemperedaldbitch Mon 28-Jan-13 15:44:45

my DH works and i was made redundant and I got JSA for a while. We've been together for 22 years.

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:48:10

So the opinions are divided between keep your beak out and report them :D

If he's entitled fair enough but why does he say he's a benefit cheat and that he has to say they are not living together then? Why not just say they are living together, unless it's for the council tax discount :D

Anyway I shall bow out, get my beak back where it belongs!

DeepRedBetty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:49:09

Between you and your conscience OP. You can forget about it as some upthread have said, or do what axure suggests.

DoJo Mon 28-Jan-13 15:49:38

Report them and let the benefits office investigate them - if they aren't doing anything wrong, then there's no need to lie about where he lives, and if they are then they are stealing money from every tax payer and legitimate benefits claimant in the country.

catladycourtney1 Mon 28-Jan-13 15:50:20

I only work 23 hours a week and my dp had to move out when he lost his job because they said I earned to much for him to be able to claim. I could just about pay the rent and council tax etc, but couldn't afford to support us both, even just with regards to food, gas and electric, on just my wage. However I know people who have claimed when they live with a partner who works, so I'm not entirely sure how it's all worked out.
I would be suspicious, since if he's entitled to benefits then why would he need to give a false address? But I don't really know what I think about reporting it. It's not hurting you personally, and there are no prizes for grassing people up, it's not worth it if they're friends. They'll know it was you if they've just told you all this and suddenly they get a knock on the door.

usualsuspect Mon 28-Jan-13 15:51:07

Yes, just report everyone, just in case.

usualsuspect Mon 28-Jan-13 15:52:06

My DP was made redundant and claimed JSA, while I worked full time. They never even asked him how much I earnt.

DeepRedBetty Mon 28-Jan-13 15:52:48

If they're really acting and talking the way you's the telephone number

As others have said, you can claim contribution based JSA even if your partner works full time. I did when I was made redundant on ML, it was hard when it stopped as I still haven't found a job.
I kept it very quiet, it was nobody else's business but mine and DH.

usualsuspect Mon 28-Jan-13 15:56:34

Good job you did keep in quiet, judging by this thread the Fraud line would have been ringing off the hook.

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 16:14:54

I did say just watch out you don't get put on workfare grin

No I think it's disgusting what's happening in this country right now with regards the benefit system with this universal credit and this card thing that only allows you to buy from certain shops etc plus the workfare thing, know a few people really in the shit with it. Agree there has to be a lamp down on benefit cheats but not at the expense of legitimate claimants. Everyone is going to be terrified of losing their job.

nickelbabe Mon 28-Jan-13 16:18:38

the thing is, if they've told you they're cheating the system, then you can't possibly give them the benefit of the doubt! they've admitted it!
they know they're committing fraud and by telling you, they're laying themselves wide open for reporting.

Hammy02 Mon 28-Jan-13 16:31:12

YANBU. When I was out of work, DP (that I lived with) earner £50k and I had savings but was still eligible to I did.

PrincessFiorimonde Mon 28-Jan-13 16:31:57

Perhaps they were trying to wind you up, OP.

ResolutelyCheeky Mon 28-Jan-13 16:42:02

Of course it's fraud (if they are not winding you up). For a start off if she is classed as living alone she will be getting a reduction on her council tax won't she?

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 17:30:12

Def not winding me up, they've claimed before and Y has said he goes to his mothers to vote as he's still at that address. This is a close relative btw.

It's taking the p a bit if you've not lived there for 9 years.

StinkyWicket Mon 28-Jan-13 17:41:52

I work full time.

DH claims contribution-based JSA and will be allowed to for 6 months.

That is not fraudulent. We didn't withold any of this information when he claimed.

However, if they are claiming other benefits like tax credits and housing benefit, council tax benefit as single people then that is fraudulent.

CloudsAndTrees Mon 28-Jan-13 17:43:49

I wouldn't think anything of the JSA, but if she is claiming single person discount on her council tax, then that should definitely be reported. Councils are struggling to provide essential services at the moment, and anyone who isn't paying their fair share is immoral.

ENormaSnob Mon 28-Jan-13 18:00:28

The jsa claim is probably legit.

It's everything else she's claiming that isn't.

PleasePudding Mon 28-Jan-13 21:22:36

It sort of is people's business though isn't it if someone is committing fraud?

They may not be in this case but they said they were and so OP was entitled to think that's the case. If they are committing fraud then that is a crime and people committing crimes are society's business aren't they?

Selvedge Mon 28-Jan-13 21:38:33

If he has filled out the form for JSA using his mothers address, that is FRAUD. He does not live there, it is a false statement. Simple.


catladycourtney1 Mon 28-Jan-13 21:42:13

I agree that it is everyone's business due to rising taxes etc, but if its close family or friends then I don't think it's worth it. They obviously like and trust the OP to have told her what they're doing, is that a relationship that's worth throwing away over what is potentially nothing? They'll be caught out eventually. If it was someone's nobhead neighbour or something then fair enough, but they have told OP what they told her in confidence. And it's not like they've told her that they're serial killers or child molesters or something.

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 22:12:37

yeah probably is fraud

he claims from his mums adress

girlfriend thus claims as lone parent

thus maybe entitled to

tc/hb/ct/perscriptions,childcare etc etc,even if she is working (low paid/part time)

im guessing but that's what my take on this is

sweetkitty Mon 28-Jan-13 23:25:44

I don't think they would be claiming anything else, his partner Y, works in a good job, apart from council tax discount and maybe child tax credit (she's probably under the threshold for that), she was moaning the reason they had to claim was they couldn't live on her wage alone, I couldn't guess what that is and don't want to really but I'm thinking it would be about national average so she's not on min wage.

He was in a well paid job for a few years but it was temp so he was always going to lose it at some point.

There's people on here and in RL brining up 2 or more DC on a lot less.

Of course it was being implied that it's ok for me as we can afford for me to be a SAHM, yes we can and I know I am lucky but we budget like mad and scrimp and save do I can be. I hate that hen people turn round and say it's ok for me I don't have to pay childcare and thy wish they could afford to be SAHMs, then in the next sentence tell me about their new car, trip to Disneyworld or new kitchen. No what you mean is you don't want to reduce your lifestyle, we all have choices and we all make them. I have nothing against WOHM parents at all.

frustratedashell Tue 29-Jan-13 07:12:37

I think I would be very tempted to report them. If hes telling the dss that he lives at his mums then he is lying. Why should we pay for people like this? Esp if they can afford the new car etc. It makes me very angry!

chrome100 Tue 29-Jan-13 07:17:31

Well technically I have never legally moved out of my parents. All my official docs are at their address. This is because I move a lot and it would be a hassle for me to keep changing it. I pay rent, bills and income tax. I am not a fraud.

houseelfdobby Tue 29-Jan-13 07:21:24

I don't understand how people can say that whether or not people are cheating on benefits is not their business. If your next door neighbour was stealing from the local bank, would you take the same view? confused. Anyone fiddling benefits is stealing from the whole community - those paying tax, others on benefits legitimately, the NHS, schools....

Report. If they are above board then absolutely no harm will come of it. If they are cheating, then they will be made to stop. Once you have reported then you will be able to remain genuinely good friends with X as you will not need to worry about this issue, knowing that from now on it will be fine.

BTW I think someone upthread is right - JSA can be contributions based but other benefits are mainly means tested.

nickelbabe Tue 29-Jan-13 13:42:47

chrome - the difference is that you provide your current address for all your everyday purposes.

your Passport doesn't need a change of address.
your driving licence only needs an official address in case they need to contact you.

sarahtigh Tue 29-Jan-13 13:51:04

you can claim contributions based JSA for 6 months if you have 2 years of NI paid you can claim this provided you are seeking work even if your partner is multi-millionaire and you have thousands in bank, after 6 months it is income based JSA and household income and savings matters.

if you have 2 years NI you can normally just look for work in your field at similar salary to what you were on before losing job, this is generally for 26 weeks after that you should be willing to take any job at any salary for which you are qualified to continue on JSA

perceptionreality Tue 29-Jan-13 13:57:06

Don't report them - that's a horrid thing to do. I can tell you from experience that the Job Center are very strict about checking claims and making sure everything is above board.

LovesGSD Tue 29-Jan-13 14:22:14

What age are they? is the mother a older mum, this might well affect her too (council tax etc)

sweetkitty Tue 29-Jan-13 14:38:59

I won't report close family.

I also know that X was claiming working tax credits I think, is that the one you get if you make minimum wage and the government top it up? As he said he was living with his Mum as if he did he was living with Y he wouldn't get it.

The one that got me was when he was between jobs, he left one on a Friday knew he was starting the following Monday but still went and signed on to get a weeks money despite having redundancy. I suppose it's worth £70 or whatever it is.

It's all this "well we have to be deceitful as we can't afford to live on one wage and. We don't even get working family tax credits" that's because you earn too much and loads of people live on less and don't fiddle the system.

Don't they'll get caught he's always said he has stayed at the one address despite not living there for 9 years. His justification is that they give money to junkies and he's paid loads of tax so wants some of it back!

houseelfdobby Tue 29-Jan-13 21:12:25

I have always found curious the viewpoint of "I've paid in all these years, now I want to claim back". Tax is not like that. Lots of us will pay in a lot of tax and NEVER get it back because there are others who will be in need all their lives (eg the disabled, the sick) and never be able to pay in what they took out. Tax is a contrubition to the needy (and police and schools and NHS) and not a personal savings account where you build up a pot of money that you get back one day. But lots of people seem to make that argument confused

sweetkitty Tue 29-Jan-13 22:28:37

I agree you don't just pay tax to fund junkies and dole cheats you pay it to have your bins emptied, the roads swept, your children educated, healthcare, roads maintained and everything else.

andubelievedthat Wed 30-Jan-13 23:25:33

tax is a contribution to the needy? is it? like all those bombs that get manuf. ,to blow to pieces innocent civilians in other countries ,paid for by YOUR tax? deffo needy! needy your blinkin" brain examined! and as regards where you live, you do not have to be living there full time ,example, homeless people claiming jsa are encouraged to supply a mail drop address, it uncomplicates their claim a little , and they don"t have to sign on every day, each govt.body has their own (legal?)def. of what constitutes a home address.

vivizone Thu 31-Jan-13 01:02:41

I work full time. One thing that Mumsnet has taught me, is keep your financial business to yourself. There are so many snitches waiting to pounce. I can never understand people who share their money business with others, even family. There are many desperate bitter people that will drop you in for no reason other than jealousy.

People please keep YOUR financial business to yourself. Even if you're doing the right thing, there will be one who wants to make that call to fuck up your life. Do not not tell anyone what incomes goes in and out of your home. People love to watch with their beady little eyes. The op doesn't even have the facts and she has run to a public forum to 'shop' her family in. Disgusting.

Mosman Thu 31-Jan-13 01:16:13

It's so true and people forget their own little misdemeaners very quickly, we had one relative bitching about the woman over the road from her who got repossessed and "should have paid her bills then". Didn't occur to her that if my aunt hadn't paid her mortgage for 6 months she'd be in the same boat.

Monty27 Thu 31-Jan-13 01:29:09

I've only just skimmed through this. So, OP you wouldn't report close family?

Correct me if I'm wrong. If I'm right, it makes you a hypocrite, and a meddling, malicious, nosy one at that.

<Dons hat because surely I must have misunderstood>

houseelfdobby Thu 31-Jan-13 09:05:39

I can only imagine that those people telling the OP to mind her own business are themselves cheats. Why would reporting well founded suspicions mess up anyone's life if they are not on the fiddle? Even if people ARE on the fiddle, the worst that seems to happen is a rap on the knuckles and they are not able to continue doing it into the future.

We live in a society that can only function with mutual co-operation and a certain level of honesty. If you turn a blind eye to cheats then we don't stand a chance of building a better world. Let's help those who are in genuine need by ensuring that money is not wasted on cheats.

JakeBullet Thu 31-Jan-13 09:17:07

Echoing others who say he can still get JSA even if she is working. My DH got it when he was made redundant a few years back....thankfully not for long as a mortgage needed paying too.
I do t think they are doing anything fraudulent if she is working full time etc and they are not claiming anything else. Likelihood is that her money funds their other stuff.....don't get why you mentioned that tbhconfused......they have obviously paid their way previously and been lucky enough to have work.

I have an iPhone, a iPad, and a TV package.....all on benefits currently but everything was bought or started while I was in work.....could do without paying the extra for the TV package but the fee if I break the contract is eye watering.

JakeBullet Thu 31-Jan-13 09:19:22

dobby, the OP has said nothing which makes me think he is a cheat. She suggested that he couldn't get JSA if he was to declare living with a partner....which is not the case as he will still get JSA.
When I was married and working full time my husband got JSA....all my income was declared etc...and he still got it.

sweetkitty Thu 31-Jan-13 11:12:21

Right if two people tell you they are committing benefit fraud as they cannot afford to live if they don't you believe them don't you?

Luckily I've never needed to claim JSA so didn't know that you could claim it even if your partner is working, I stand corrected on that one.

I wrote about it on here as I would not discuss it in RL, I asked a question is this fraud got to,d no it's not and it's none of your business.

Opinion on whethere to report them differs, personally I would feel awful reporting close family, just my opinion, but in this instance they probably aren't committing benefit fraud although why you would tell anyone you are is beyond me. They are probably not paying correct council tax but again none of my business.

I think being called disgusting is a bit much.

JakeBullet Thu 31-Jan-13 11:54:10

I agree with you is a bit much.

You posted and people said "he can actually claim regardless". That should be thr end of it and nobody should be name calling.

Monty27 Thu 31-Jan-13 23:39:02

House I can assure you that I'm not fraudulent. I work hard, single parent with two teens and can't balance my books. No benefits of any sort and mediocre salary.

How very dare you make such a sweeping accusation.

Some people are fair and unjudemental about other people's own affairs, unlike you.


charlearose Fri 01-Feb-13 12:19:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sweetkitty Fri 01-Feb-13 15:35:20

Charlearose - she doesn't get any other benefits as she was moaning that she doesn't get any help with childcare costs as she earns too much, I suspect she might get CTCs but don't know what they've chopped the threshold to. She's got more help than most though as her MIL and friend help with childcare to keep the costs down for her, some people don't have this option at all (speaks of bitter experience).

charlearose Fri 01-Feb-13 20:05:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sweetkitty Fri 01-Feb-13 21:05:02

That's true actually never thought of that as he did have a well paid (if temp) job.

Anyway in my family there's a rule if well everyone's doing it so why can't we hmm they just don't get it.

charlearose Fri 01-Feb-13 21:42:34

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

sweetkitty Sat 02-Feb-13 14:59:53

Yes that's true but if he gets a MW job he will get WTCs won't he ashes done in the past as they are at different addresses.

What got me was the statement that they are forced to do this as they cannot afford to live otherwise. Loads of other people have less to live on and manage just fine without a new car, going out, sky telly etc they cut their cloth and don't rely on a dodgy way around it. And all the comments that unlike us they cannot afford to have one parent stay at home. Well we cut our cloth as well.

But it makes financial sense for them to keep doing it.

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