Mumsnet Talk

Mostly men (but not always) in our society are who are serial impregnators, who repeatedly have children then leave and move on to have more without paying for the children they left behind, and in a lot of cases leaving the state to pick up their tab

im sick of single mothers being portrayed as villians for 'breeding' yet the feckless fathers who left without a by or leave, are never mentioned, or made to pay

I dont want another single mum debate, i want a debate on why these men are allowed to get away with it? why are we not doing more to make them face up to their responsibilities?

i think if they were prosecuted for not supporting the children they left behind, they would be less likely to have more children they are likely to leave and not pay for

I think its an excellent idea. I'm not in favour of over-criminalising society, but so many areas have been made criminal offences recently here in Scotland (apparantly if I let out a rental flat which is not carpetted, I will be committing a criminal offence soon), that more important matters should probably be targetted too.

Mind you, the court system would be overrun by their excuses.

Hm. Having a father who was made to pay up through the CSA, I'd say yes but there are disadvantages. My dad told me outright that he grudged paying for my upbringing. I'd quite frankly rather he didn't pay than be told he never wanted to.. Maybe the solution lies in making dads want to look after their children .. If that makes sense. But I can understand the frustration.

I started a similar thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1647334-To-think-that-not-paying-child-maintaince-should-be-a-criminal-offence-like-tax-evasion

Prehaps men who refuse to pay for their children should be castrated to prevent them having any more. I am not sure what you do to useless mothers who pay nothing towards their children.

I agree.

They shouldnt have a choice though, if it was mandatory im sure more men would think twice before they had children

If i, as the sole souce of income for my family, stopping providing for my children i would be prosecuted for child neglect

Criminalisation most definitely. It's child abuse.

Oh yes. I agree.

Create a child - pay for that child.

Walking away should NOT be an option.

I'd like to see passports and driving licences taken away, the lot. Actual consequences. And baliffs at your door. ccjs. Stop at nothing to make those who currently avoid paying, pay up.

I'd mostly like to see a shift in attitude. Make it something that is seen as revolting and that you'd be ashamed for anyone to know about you.

People shouldn't resent their child or ex for the fact they have to pay money for their child. It should be seen as just the thing to do.

great minds reallytired

I think it's an idea worth exploring.

Agreed.

So.... what shall we do about it?

hmmm.

devil's advocatey type of point, but if contraception fails, as a woman you have the choice whether to go ahead with the pregnancy. If you are a man, you don't get to make that decision.

'I'd like to see passports and driving licences taken away, the lot. Actual consequences. And baliffs at your door. ccjs'

Hecate the CSA do have the power to do these things, yet after 6 years of them trying to money from my ex, they still havent done any of those things!

I agree. My friend had a baby that the father does not financially support. She worked her arse off to get a job and make a decent life for him, but in the mean time her child's father wasn't contributing a penny. Do not think it should be the state's responsibility to pay for children, when they have perfectly capable parents who are just electing not to contribute.

I think something needs to be done about men who abandon their families and do everything in their power to not pay sufficient money to their ex wives and children. Being a parent should be something the law enforces. If men couldn't get away with this shit, then they might think twice before they bugger off and have yet more kids with someone else!

most relationships don't end during pregnancy though, nagoo. Far more end when the child is born. or when they're 2, or 3, or 5...

Vinegar - Never ever heard of them doing any of that to anyone. I wonder why they dont.

What Hec said.

(Have never said that yet, feel like I'm part of the club now )

Totally agree OP. You cant just criminalise the bloke though. They are, in many ways, both to blame for behaving so irresponsibly.

YANBU at all. My dick darling of a father in law was ranting on about single mothers one time so I asked him what about the fathers who leave the women single and struggling? Oh apparently it wasn't their fault, the women are responsible. He's not the only person I've heard this view from, both men and women seem to believe that men can have sex whenever and wherever they like without worrying about contraception and just walk away from any child they create without a care in the world. According to them it is up to the women and the women alone to protect against pregnancy and to deal with one if it happens to occur. It is shocking to think that in this day and age people still put the onus for staying "pure" and celibate on women but it is very much the case and I think that's the reason so many men get away with being so incredibly irresponsible. It's as if being a single mother is the woman's "punishment" for daring to go out and have sex, while the man doesn't even have to pay for never mind look after the child as he is blameless, only "doing what men do."

How a woman could ever date or marry a man who has children but doesn't provide for them is beyond me, yet these men seem to have no trouble getting one partner after another.

But what about cases where the man didn't want the child (wanted his partner to have an abortion) and the woman chose not to listen to his wishes?

It also needs to have a real stigma attached to it. Like drunk driving does these days.

ITA. BIL (DH's brother) currently has around 9 children with 6 women and another on the way! He doesn't see or pay for 7 of those children! I wondering when his current girlfriend is going to realise that she's just 1 in a long list of baby mammas. The amount shit he gave DH for having a vasectomy! DH has 3 children, and has paid for and brought them all up, we don't want any more so he did the responsible thing.

It should most definitely apply to both genders though. DSD's mother never paid a penny towards her. For the first 9 years of DSD's life she claimed benefits for her but dumped her on her parents as much as possible, then when we got residence she never paid a penny in maintenance for the remaining 9 years!

I assume that you mean men that have the means to pay but choose not to?

So you aren't going to criminalise people who are unable to work to support a child? Just people that have an income from but don't pay?

In Brazil you can be imprisoned for not supporting children. I think it's a good idea in principle but pretty hard to enforce. Also there would have to be loopholes (someone unable to work due disability, for example, would not be able to make much contribution and these loopholes would inevitably get taken advantage of. What about a situation where a man was unaware he had impregnated someone?

Totally agree. Criminalisation would hopefully bring about a change in attitude. Paying for your DC should be 100% non negotiable and not doing so should be viewed by society as repugnant. Consequences should be real and harsh. What do people think about the current system where the figure payable is reduced when the NRP has more DC?

"but if contraception fails, as a woman you have the choice whether to go ahead with the pregnancy. If you are a man, you don't get to make that decision. "

The always have the choice to not have sex, or using a condom (I know these sometimes fail though.

Regardless, imo the right of the child to be supported financially (if this is the only support on offer) trumps the father's 'right' to walk away.

if a woman gets pg then they both have to face up to that responsibility, otherwise men all over the place would just say 'right have a termination' simples, when its the woman who has to live the mental and physical concequenses of putting her body through that

many times i have heard it said on here that if a woman doesnt want to have a child she shouldnt have sex, well the same goes for a man

Producing a child is a well known consequence of having sex, it doesn't matter if the 'man' doesn't want the baby. He should have been more careful with contraception or in the case of being supposedly tricked, who he had sex with in the first place

Cailin you see it all the time though, it's not the poor father's fault, it's the bitch of a mother wouldn't let him see the DC, why should he pay for kids he doesn't see, she's a psycho, etc. etc. There's a million reasons a feckless father can give to a new partner for not having contact/ financial responsibility. If he deigns to mention the DC at all.

What about those people who quit their jobs when the CSA catches up with them.

Technically they have no money so are unable to pay, but they did it so they wouldn't HAVE to pay.

What to do about such people, while not punishing those who genuinely can't pay because despite their best efforts, they don't have any money. Or they have disabilities that prevent them from working etc.

WE have one in our family had two children, effectively washed his hands and now has another two. We aren't getting too attached this time around as you don't know how long we'll be able to see them before he moves on to the next one

Redsky- essentially that is irrelevant. By having sex you're running the risk of having a baby, that's just a biological fact that most normal adults are aware of. The simple answer is, if a man doesn't want a baby then he shouldn't have sex because once a baby is made the decision isn't his. The only alternative is to allow a situation where a man can force a woman to have an abortion (one I presume no woman wants) or can just walk away and say "Well I didn't want it in the first place."

Whack all 11yo's on contraception and then make us all get married before we are allowed to come off it?

*I don't really think this.

I don't think that we are going to find an answer that doesn't punish children for the fecklessness (might be a word) of adults.

If you have sex, you face the consequence of a possible PG

The woman faces that, as does the man.

Having to pay for that child is therefore a consequence on having sex

Or go back to the days where self respecting people didn't just go around randomly shagging strangers.

- not that I want forced adoptions or magdalaine laundries reintroduced. But I wish there could be a bit more mainstream media encouragement of not bonking any tom dick or harry as they seem to have all the influence over teens these days.