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To be surprised at the Bali drugs smuggling outcome

(86 Posts)
BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 11:31:52

Just heard today that they expect Lindsay Sandiford to be executed within 24 hours, jeez that was fast. Really expected this to be drawn out and then the sentence eventually commuted to life imprisonment or such.

I hadn't heard it was going to be so fast. I'm surprised they haven't strung it out and eventually reduced her sentence. I feel for her loved ones, I still can't feel for her tbh.

EyesCrossedLegsAkimbo Mon 28-Jan-13 11:38:58

To be honest I'm not surprised at all.

millie30 Mon 28-Jan-13 11:39:26

I read it that she has 24 hours left to file her appeal against the sentence, and time is running out because she has sacked her lawyers and needs to find someone new to represent her. No one has been executed in Bali since 2008 as there is alot of debate going on about the death penalty there at the moment so I would be very suprised if the sentence is carried out anytime soon if at all.

Reaa Mon 28-Jan-13 11:39:36

Oh no, not read this yet......off to read news now.

ReallyTired Mon 28-Jan-13 11:39:57

That is incredibly fast and worrying. The dangers of a miscarriage of justice are high if there is no time for a proper appeal.

HannahsSister40 Mon 28-Jan-13 11:40:51

I feel for her. Drug smuggling is an abhorrent crime, but it's not serious enough to warrant state sponsored murder, surely?

BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 11:44:54

Millie30 - ah, maybe that's the case about it being 24 hrs to appeal. Can't believe they would execute her that fast, think even the Bali bombers were held for years before being executed.

It is serious enough to warrent it in the country she chose to commit the crime in, thats the law there regardless of what any of us think of the death sentence here.

BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 11:47:40

Hannah - I don't support the death penalty but most people know that that is the law in Indonesia. I've become much more anti drugs after reading stories about the price normal people pay in countries where drugs are produced and trafficked. Stories coming out of places like Mexico are horrendous.

socharlotte Mon 28-Jan-13 11:48:58

'Drug smuggling is an abhorrent crime, but it's not serious enough to warrant state sponsored murder, surely? '

how many lives do you think 5 kg of cocaine could destroy.

I just read that yes, in 24 hours she will be shot by the firing squad. Apparently she was given 7 days last week to lodge an appeal but as she has sacked her lawyers she hasn't done that yet! She will get some one last minute I suspect and will get a reprieve for now.

I don't feel for her to be honest. Drug trafficking is dispicable - what's the saying if you can't do the time then don't do the crime! Yeah, feel bad for her family but not for her.

NotALondoner Mon 28-Jan-13 11:51:51

It says in the Telegraph that she has appealed this morning, but by herself, not via lawyers.

OwlLady Mon 28-Jan-13 11:56:40

I don't support the dealth penalty either and with all due respect soharlotte the woman facing execution was bottom of the drugs chain and was not only denied legal representation for 10 days but has also received the most extreme punishment. Surely we have the right to question why she is the only person facing the punishment for this crime when the others who were 'caught' in the involvement of this case only face minimal sentences and received legal representation earlier

nefertarii Mon 28-Jan-13 11:58:35

I don't get cases like this.

If she was a Bali national she would be executed and no one would intervene. As she is a British national the whole work is going mad.

She commuted the crime in a country that is very clear on its laws.

It almost feels that her life is worth more and worth our government fighting for because she is British.

People get so upset when its a British person that is taking a substance that destroys people into another country. But don't get upset if its a local.

I just don't get it.

nefertarii Mon 28-Jan-13 11:59:43

Sorry for the typos. I hate my phone.

I think anyone who gets involved with drug trafficking deserves the punishment of where they commit that crime. Everyone knows that in the Far East the death sentence is carried out and yet still people do it!

Apparently she is well known drug smuggler or whatever you call it.

I have no sympathy at all.

I dont smuggle drugs. So I dont get the dealth penalty.

Its quite an easy equasion.

i live in a very black/white world

Nancyclancy Mon 28-Jan-13 12:03:50

I agree it's moving a bit too fast!

But have to agree with what others have said. If you smuggle drugs then you face the consequences!

HannahsSister40 Mon 28-Jan-13 12:11:30

I can't believe so few people feel any empathy for her. Where's the humanity in that? I don't give a fuck what the law is in Bali. Executing someone in the jungle is wrong, period. End of.

Mosman Mon 28-Jan-13 12:12:53

When in Rome as they say.
I don't agree with Indonesian laws so i don't go there and certainly wouldn't smuggle drug through their country.

Hannah - don't you think what she did is wrong?? Are you not aware of the massive drug problem we have due to scum bags like her? Do you think she gave a toss about the addicts in the making?? Did she fuck!

BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 12:14:39

But there has to be room for miscarriages of justice and that's why there is appeals made. I don't smuggle drugs, doesn't mean it's not impossible I might one day find myself in a Far East prison for something I'm innocent of, look at Bridget Jones.

WilsonFrickett Mon 28-Jan-13 12:15:26

I believe the death penalty is wrong, so on one level I do have empathy for her. However, I do give a fuck about the laws in Bali. She shouldn't have broken them and I suspect she believed if she did get caught her sentence would be commuted because she was a UK national. And that's really putting two fingers up at the authorities there, isn't it?

Hannah - the jungle???

But she isn't innocent though is she!!

Do you think, had she not been caught, she would have given a shit what misery the drugs she carried would have brought? Do you think she would have felt responsible for any drug related deaths she heard about? I doubt it.

ivykaty44 Mon 28-Jan-13 12:17:24

where do these drug smugglers think the money goes?

there are many reports this is just one

they are working for organised criminals that then use this money to kill our soldiers, how many weeping parents have seen their boys come home through Wootton Bassett in coffins

So no she deserves to die

SamuelWestsMistress Mon 28-Jan-13 12:17:36

Blimey that's really quick. I thought that it could be a while...similar to the way things are in the USA. It's sad and I think the death penalty is a complex and difficult issue, but surely she must have known the risks?

Exactly. She is only sorry she got caught and is banking on the fact that she is British to escape the death penalty!

She is a scum bag pure and simple! One of the big fears I have for the future for my DS is drugs. The sooner people like her are gone the better!

Nixea Mon 28-Jan-13 12:22:45

She seems to have spend most of her life running away from facing up to her debts and responsibilities. This is the rather tragic end result of that. I do have a great deal of sympathy for her loved ones but none at all for her I'm afraid. It's the risk she chose when she decided to smuggle drugs into a country that upholds the death penalty for such a crime.

Darmont Mon 28-Jan-13 12:24:00

Just read the Telegraph which reported 2 hrs ago that she has now filed an official statement to say she is going to appeal, but she doesn't yet have a lawyer and needs to appoint one. It also says the appeals process take several years

hellsbells76 Mon 28-Jan-13 12:26:57

Um, Bridget Jones was not very good fiction...

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 12:36:01

I don't agree with the death penalty, however it is common knowledge what the law in Indonesia is and if you don't accept the penalty then don't commit the crime.

5alive4life Mon 28-Jan-13 12:36:31

it clealry states on the immigration card in big black letters accross the top that drugs=death. She had the oppertunity to tell officials that she had been threatened and forced to carry drugs into the country and she did not.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 12:37:40

These people must now be very worried for their future - if they have one.

Step Mon 28-Jan-13 12:49:38

No sympathy.

It's on the card, there's a bloody great sign up in arrivals all telling you you're going to the firing squad if you do it.

At least from 1 metre thay won't miss.

Drugs kill.

ScarlettInSpace Mon 28-Jan-13 12:59:10

I don't agree with the death penalty, however it is common knowledge what the law in Indonesia is and if you don't accept the penalty then don't commit the crime.

I agree totally with that statement. I am completely opposed to the death penalty but conversely I wouldn't commit a crime that carries it knowing full well that was the associated punishment [actually I wouldn't commit that level of crime even if it didn't carry it, but that's probably because i understand the difference between right & wrong]

However, the only source for this story [i.e. that she will be executed in 24 hours] that I can find is the Mirror hmm and they have removed it from their site now so I'd probably question its integrity.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 13:16:28

Same here Scarlett - re the website and whether or not I'd commit the crime.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 13:21:27

what about this statement from the reprieve website?

"Dr Jennifer Fleetwood, who is a specialist on women’s involvement in the international drug trade, will tell a court in Bali that, in her professional opinion, “Lindsay Sandiford was subjected to coercion by one or more parties over a period of time, which led to her being stopped at Ngurah Rai International Airport (Denpasar) in Bali, on the 19th May 2012 carrying in excess of 4 kilograms of cocaine.”

so how can everyone be so sure she is guilty?

and even if she is, why is it ok to murder her?

I'm genuinely interested in the answers to these questions, not at all looking for a fight.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 13:23:14

or rather, yes, she is guilty of committing the crime, but perhaps not the scheming greedy callous monster people are assuming?

JoanByers Mon 28-Jan-13 13:25:46

This whole thread appears to be based on an incorrect story.

No-one in Indonesia has been executed in 4 years. She has just filed an ppeal. www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/british-grandmother-appeals-indonesia-death-sentence/568175

TroublesomeEx Mon 28-Jan-13 13:36:06

fudgeling

If she was carrying in excess of 4kg of cocaine then she is guilty of smuggling/attempting to smuggle drugs. She's not denying that she did is, just why. So she is guilty. It just depends on whether there are associated mitigating circumstances.

No one's saying it's OK to murder her. But that is the law of the country in which she committed the crime, was arrested and will be tried. She knew the risk she was taking. You can't expect to be treated differently because you don't agree with the punishment. It's not how it works.

If she hadn't smuggled the drugs, she wouldn't be facing the death penalty. She thought it was an acceptable risk to take when she wasn't getting caught. It's unlikely for people to get caught on their actual first offence so who knows how much money she's made from it over the years.

Without people like this woman, willing to take the big risks for the big rewards, there would be no drugs problem.

so how can everyone be so sure she is guilty?

She is guilty, there is no doubt of that. I believe she said her children were being threatened, but (and I could be wrong) they weren't being held by anyone. She had oppourtunity to get them moved, or report the people who were 'forcing' her before she smuggled the drugs, or any manner of other things than blindly go along with this.

and even if she is, why is it ok to murder her?

Whether we agree or not with the death penelty (and I think I possibly stand alone on MN that I actually do agree with it to a certain extent) that is the law there. She knew the consequences and carried on anyway.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 13:41:46

folk I realised that after my first post, and wrote another one straight after - I meant to ask what people thought about the mitigating circumstances argument.

But what I don't get is people saying they are against the death penalty, but in the same breath adding that she deserves to die because that's the law in Indonesia. Surely if you are against the death penalty then you think it's worng regardless of the law in any given country?

I get that what she did was wrong btw.

lovelyladuree Mon 28-Jan-13 13:42:18

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 13:43:12

Missy yes I have a few problems with her argument, too.

helenthemadex Mon 28-Jan-13 13:44:28

I do think that the people who do this type of thing assume that because they are British they wont be executed and will serve any sentence they are given in a British prison

she is not the organiser but she did knowingly commit the crime, and not for the first time, this was not a small amount it was nearly 11lbs, does she deserve to die for it? well she knew the punishment she would face when she commited the crime.

Another point that occured to me is that she supposedly did this because she was worried about her children, but whe she was arrested she cooperated with the police, surely this action would have put her family at even more risk, I know some were arrested but not all of them

I am going to be lazy and agree with everything Missy says - she puts it so much better than me!

TroublesomeEx Mon 28-Jan-13 13:46:15

Sorry fudgeling blush

Didn't read past that post before replying!

No one's saying that she deserves to die though. That's the point.

I don't think she deserves to die (except that if I did agree with the death penalty I think she'd be amongst the group of people I'd want it reserved for ) but that is the law of the country in which she committed the crime and she can't expect to be tried according to British Law in Indonesia.

You can't pick and choose which law you want to be tried/punished under. She knew the risk she was taking and was happy to do so. I wouldn't want to risk the death penalty so I would neither travel to a country which had it nor commit a crime which carried it.

BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 13:51:09

Maybe the information I heard earlier about the 24 hour thing is wrong then. Wouldn't be surprised as it normally takes much longer for the sentence to be carried out if it does get carried out.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 13:51:37

Folkgirl, out of interest do you mean all countries with the death penalty? Would you really not travel to the USA?

ScarlettInSpace Mon 28-Jan-13 13:52:54

fudge I really don't agree with the death penalty, I don't think murdering someone is the right response to them commiting a crime.

However, regardless of whether I believe it is a suitable punishment the fact remains that in some countries it exists and when people commit certain crimes in these countries they are fully aware that it is the penalty they will pay if caught.

I wouldn't dream of trafficking drugs, but if for whatever reason I decided to carry drugs, then by default I have accepted the terms under which I act, regardles of whether I think it is a just penalty.

There are plenty of laws & rules I don't agree with, but I adhere to them because they are the law/rules of society, I don't think they don't apply to me just because I disgree with them.

BegoniaBampot Mon 28-Jan-13 13:53:30

Guess the moral of the story is, the next time your smuggling drugs - make sure if you get caught, you get caught in the UK.

TroublesomeEx Mon 28-Jan-13 13:55:09

Well, I don't have any interest in travelling to the USA.

But not really because of the death penalty thing.

(I don't travel well)

Or maybe the moral of the story could be don't think drug smuggling is a quick way to make easy money so don't be a greedy evil bastard and take the easy way out but go and get a bloody job like the rest of us mere mortals have to!

The story about her doing it to save her kids is just a load of horses manure to be honest!

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 13:59:17

folk i think lots of people have said things along the lines of "I don't agree with the death penalty BUT she knew the law and what would happen if she got caught", with the implication that her execution should therefore be allowed to happen.

Scarlett I'm not saying the penalty shouldn't be carried out because she doesn't want or agree with it, though. I'm saying it shouldn't be carried out at all. And again, I get that what she did was wrong, I think people who make money out of others misery are disgusting. But I believe it's wrong to kill them whether they knowingly committed a crime punishable by death or not and regardless of their nationality, so the argument that she know what she was doing seems to my mind irrelevant.

Mosman Mon 28-Jan-13 14:01:24

Dr Jennifer Fleetwood, who is a specialist on women’s involvement in the international drug trade - who makes her living out of researching the probability of the guilt of women looking at being shot claiming to be innocent concludes that this case is an exception - just like every other one she examines no doubt.
I wonder how many Dr Jennifer Fleetwood looks into and declares yep that one is as guilty as sin.
Also the fact that the accused took part in a sting operation hoping that it would reduce her sentence is rather suspicious if I was innocent I'd be telling them I am never touching cocaine never mind delivering it to a house where a child lives wrapped up as a birthday present.

Bobbybird40 Mon 28-Jan-13 14:02:45

thefudgeling - if they removed the death penalty in that part of the world for drugs smuggling, the problem would become many, many times worse than it already is. It would be catastrophic.

dontsqueezetheteabag Mon 28-Jan-13 14:04:57

I have been to Bali, when you fly in theer are signs all over the place about the consequences of smuggling drugs. This is the same in all asian countries.

The woman knew what she was doing and the consequences if she was caught.

No sympathy for her whatsoever! I have been pretty skint at times and have amanged to get by without committing a crime!

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:08:59

Bobby if they legalised drugs we could focus efforts on helping addicts and their families and far far fewer people would die.

Or at least that's my opinion at the moment and I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

Branleuse Mon 28-Jan-13 14:11:08

She obviously didnt know the right people to bribe. Drugs are commonplace in indonesia and the police turn a blind eye if you bribe them enough. Rich people dont even need to be discrete. Its usually the poorer people who get done though

thefudgeling

Your last comment just oozes niaveity!! Addicts in the grip of addiction do not want help, they want more drugs. Without the death sentence then this will be easier for them ........millions more would die.

rainbow2000 Mon 28-Jan-13 14:15:54

I dont understand how people who are caught doing illegal things in different countries think they are above the law.The law is the law of that country and you shouldnt be treated any different just cause you are a foreign national.

And the people saying she shouldnt get the death penalty would be ok if she sold your dc drugs.Of course not you would be out for her blood.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:16:08

Betty your comment oozes condescension! Having known and loved several addicts in the grip of addiction I think I can safely say that some of them actually do want help. And also that drugs are not hard to find whether illegal or not!

If my opinion is so naive why do the police and government give any time to considering it as an option?

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:17:54

rainbow of course it's wrong to sell drugs, I still think prison is an adequate punishment and the death penalty is inhumane and wrong!

I have known some too. Yes, in a way they want help but ultimately they wanted the drugs more!

Bottom line is she knew what she was doing. She had money worries or whatever and just decided to make a quick buck by importing drugs - sod whose life she was gonna ruin, sod whose children would die, it was all about her her her!!

Well, she got caught caught and should pay the price.

No drugs sadly are not hard to find but witout scumbags like her about, maybe in time, they will be that little bit harder.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:23:43

Yes, people do horrible things in the name of greed.

I guess I'm not going to convince anyone here round to my way of thinking.

Executing one person is not going to reduce the illegal drugs problem, though. It's a drop in the ocean.

But surely if it stops even one person from going down that same route???I don't know, I just think if there are no consequences for things like this it is just going to get out of hand!

There has to be a line somewhere.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:33:51

Problems need logical solutions, not emotive ones. It's a matter of working out which system would result in the least harm. I'm still not convinced that legalisation is a naive concept, and neither are many others according to this:

http://www.economist.com/what-the-world-thinks/should-drugs-be-legalised

but, there are no easy answers, no matter how much we wish for them.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:36:41

and thanks for replying Betty. I think this subject needs to be talked and thought about a lot more than it is.

Have I derailed the thread? Not sure but I will stop now!

It's an important topic Fudge - one that does need debating and discussion. I don't think the thread is derailed....... smile

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:48:20

Betty going back to your previous post, I think the thing is, the situation already is out of hand, despite the way we deal with it currently.

Anyway, I really will stop now!

stickyj Mon 28-Jan-13 14:48:36

I think that if you do the crome, you pay the price. If you decide to smuggle drugs knowing that the country's laws say the death penalty, then tough.

I no longer see my oldest son who is hooked on cocaine. It is breaking my heart but i am trying tough love. If it wasn't for drug smugglers, I would have four children, not three sad

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 14:53:16

I am sorry stickyj, I hope he gets himself help and gets off it.

I dunno Fudge - I reckon if the UK were firmer and had better law enforcement for drug related crimes (and other serious crimes too) maybe it wouldn't be so out of hand!!

I don't think the death penalty is always such a bad thing you know but that is another debate!

I think of people like sticky and like I said before, drugs is one of my worries for DS's future. When I was a kid we could go to school and buy a cigarette off the ice cream man for 10p.....what the hell can they get now?? It scares me shitless I don't mind admitting and I seriously think anyone caught dishing out drugs should be severly punished and not just a few weeks/months in a cushy prison cell either!

Lyrasilvertongued Mon 28-Jan-13 14:58:18

This is interesting reading: www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/grandmother-lindsay-sandifords-cocaine-sentence-executing-drug-mules-isnt-just-inhumane-its-also-pointless-8463367.html
I also agree that what she did was wrong, but the article makes a good point about the wrong people in the chain being caught and penalised and the 'kingpins' remaining hidden and continuing the whole process.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 15:06:09

Sticky, so sorry to hear about your son, really feel for you and the hard decisions that you have had to make and live with.

With regard to one drug smuggler being a drop in the ocean, if nothing is done about one because it is "a drop in the ocean", well those drops make the ocean so if nothing has been done about the individual drops then it's going to be a heck of a big ocean one day.

If countries are going to have the death penalty for drug smuggling then it should perhaps be an all or nothing approach - all drug smugglers automatically receive the death penalty or none do?

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 15:06:55

I'm scared for my loved ones, too, 2 childhood friends have died through drugs, and worrying about my DC/DSC getting into drugs is one of my top worry topics. But we spend millions fighting drug crime, and our prisons are overflowing, but kids can still buy drugs. Where do we go from here?

I think the answer to that question is where we will have to agree to disagree.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 15:08:55

Dizzy I was in no way suggesting nothing should be done to punish drug smugglers, just that I don't believe the death penalty can be justified by saying it will solve the global drugs problem.

Lyrasilvertongued Mon 28-Jan-13 15:09:51

Just realised someone posted further up about Dr Fleetwood - however, feel the need to comment on Mosman's statement that she makes her living out of looking into the innocence of women arrested for smuggling - no, she makes her living researching the situations of women who've been arrested and imprisoned for drug smuggling, there is a difference as she is not invested in their perceived innocence/guilt - however in situations like this where someone is claiming coercion I imagine it's the same as any other legal situation where a specialist can comment on the likelihood of someone's story based on years of research and knowledge of the drug industry.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 15:19:29

Fudgeling, I didn't say (or intend to say!) that you were. I don't think it solve the whole drugs problem either but if somebody has committed the crime then it has to be dealt with by the law in that country.

We'd be pretty fed up if the police didn't do anything about crime because it wouldn't solve the national problem; it's about the punishment for the individual who has committed the crime as well as any deterrent. How would the police discourage people from committing crime if they knew that nothing would be done about it? Unfortunately not everybody has qualms about committing crime.

EldritchCleavage Mon 28-Jan-13 15:21:17

I imagine that LS got the death penalty because her claims of coercion simply weren't believed by the court. Without seeing her give evidence and hearing the evidence against her, it just isn't possible to say if that's right or fair or not, Dr. Fleetwood notwithstanding.

How big or small a player in all this she was is also hard to say.

thefudgeling Mon 28-Jan-13 15:27:13

ok fair enough dizzy, I thought that's what you meant by saying: "if nothing has been done about the individual drops then it's going to be a heck of a big ocean one day".

Again, regarding your second point, I didn't say nothing should be done when people break the law, just that criminals should not be executed.

TheCarefulLaundress Mon 28-Jan-13 15:35:20

Although I am opposed to the death penalty, I honestly think I'd rather face the firing squad than spend several years in an Indonesian prison.

SilverOldie Mon 28-Jan-13 15:51:23

I am also opposed to the death sentence. However, she didn't give a thought to the people who may have used those those drugs, and who may have died as a result.

It's a despicable thing to do and she must have been aware of the penalty for smuggling in the Far East.

So if she is not shot, she should remain in jail over there for a long time.

Sallyingforth Mon 28-Jan-13 15:59:34

Well one good thing has come out of this - the wide publicity should help to persuade other potential 'mules' not to follow her example.
For that reason I believe the sentence should be carried out, or replaced with a genuine whole life sentence in a Bali prison.

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