Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm afraid we're heading that way again.

(449 Posts)
garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 11:21:31

"It is estimated that close to 250,000 disabled people were murdered under the Nazi regime. Persecution of people with disabilities began in 1933, but mass murder commenced in 1939.

"The organised killing of disabled children began in August 1939 ... All children under the age of three who were suffering from conditions such as Down’s syndrome, hydrocephaly, cerebral palsy or ‘suspected idiocy’, were targeted. A panel of medical experts were required to give their approval for the ‘euthanasia’ of each child. In the first few months of the program this was usually achieved either by lethal injection or by starving the child to death. Many parents were unaware of the fate of their children, instead being told that they were being sent for improved care.

"The first experimental gassings took place at the killing centre in Brandenberg and thousands of disabled patients were killed in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. Now that a fast and effective method of mass-murder had been developed it could of course be used to exterminate gays, Gypsies, political opponents and of course over six million Jews.

"Worryingly, in 2012 in Great Britain, Geoffrey Clark, a local government candidate for the UK Independence Party in a by-election in Gravesham, Kent posted this on his website:

"Consider compulsory abortion when the foetus is detected as having Downs, Spina Bifida or similar syndrome which, if it is born, will render the child a burden on the state as well as on the family."

"Although UKIP suspended Clark’s party membership when this hit the news, it was too late to cancel his candidacy. He came second to the conservatives with almost 27% of the vote."

What can we do about escalating persecution of the disabled and otherwise 'unproductive' people in the UK? Are we heading back towards forced sterilisation and murder?

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 11:22:03
MsVestibule Mon 28-Jan-13 11:28:27

Persecution by who? This is one person's opinion. As a general rule, I think people are far more accepting of people with physical disabilities now. A couple of generations ago, it was quite common to find families putting their children in care who had birth abnormalities.

Perhaps I'm just an eternal optimist, though.

manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 11:28:29

It terrifies me that there are people out there that think this is a sound way to treat another person, let alone a disabled one.

It was said on here recently that benefit claimants should be forced to "live in hostels with 12 to a room." Ghettoes then?

It is very scary just how much people are believing the governments propaganda!

nefertarii Mon 28-Jan-13 11:32:43

because a few dickheads feels this way it means we are heading for another holocaust?

No were are not. There have always been dickheads, there always will be. To equate that to the holocaust is down playing the holocaust itself.

TheBigJessie Mon 28-Jan-13 11:35:14

We are in a recession. Historically people tend to drift to the far right or the far left in times of economic strife.

And we're definitely seeing the rise of the far right. Don't know how far it's going to go. I feel certain it's not going to be another Holocaust, but people always tell me I'm an optimist.

purrpurr Mon 28-Jan-13 11:37:59

It's not really just a few dickheads though, is it? Those on benefits are on the sharp end of a full throttle hatred campaign. A lot of those on benefits are either disabled or acutely unwell. The war on 'benefit scum' is seemingly being waged by government, the tabloids and a lot of Conservatives that I know personally. I've never heard such venom being directed at a particular group so frequently, without anyone raising an eyebrow. This is assisting the government in making cuts to funds and services designed in a lot of cases to assist the most vulnerable in society. This is more than a shower of dickheads, it's a monsoon.

This time the dickheads are running the country though. Bit different.

Pigsmummy Mon 28-Jan-13 11:40:32

Yes we are heading towards another Halocaust Memorial day, 364 days to go!

We are not heading towards another Halocaust based on one Eejits comments on a website. All mothers who have a child with a disability are currently offered terminations, some do, some don't, it wont become compulsory.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 11:42:35

MrsVestibule: Disability hate crime has been rising fast. It rose by a quarter last year alone.

The government's disability tests have been telling sick people they must work for well over a year.

The combination of cuts in benefits and services means that people with severe disabilities will lose an average of £8,832 per person per year – 19 times more than the burden placed on most other citizens.

The DWP is now saying people are not disabled if they could use a wheelchair or guide dog, even when they do not have access to a wheelchair or guide dog, Private Eye reports.

This looks like a continued effort to label sick people as shirkers and burdens on society. These are, in fact, the reasons claimed by those who abuse the disabled. As they were similarly claimed in Nazi Germany.

manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 11:43:09

1933 Weimar republic, and all that, started with a handful of people with hateful ideas who then got into positions of power and then implemented their ideas resulting in millions of murders.

I'm not saying that will happen but why give them the opportunity? We're supposed to learn from history but sadly most people don't.

nefertarii Mon 28-Jan-13 11:45:20

I disagree purrpurr.

Yes some people are angry at those on benefits. But actually I was subject to abuse from neighbours on benefits because I worked.

personally i don't raise an eyebrow. I would say something if people i knew spoke to those on benefits as you describe.

Even if you are correct it still can not be equated to the holocaust.

manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 11:47:23

It can be equated to how the policies that resulted in the Holocaust began though. So many similarities.

purrpurr Mon 28-Jan-13 11:47:42

Of course it cannot be equated with the holocaust. Now. I think garlicblocks makes some extremely valid points about why we need to talk about this and be aware of where we're heading.

nefertarii Mon 28-Jan-13 11:48:26

Actually op I disagree hate crime against disabled people is going up.

its all about stats and how you look at them. Changes in the law mean that crime can be reported as 'disablist'. So no one actually knows if the incidents have gone up. Only that more are being reported and more are being classified as being committed due to a persons disability.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 11:50:24

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manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 11:51:01

Hate crime against disabled people is going up. I had never known this to happen in the same way it is happening now.

Yes some people are angry at those on benefits.

But why though? Everyone is a few cases of bad luck away from claiming themselves.

Its a hate campaign. People are horrified at the things which took place in Nazi germany. It needs highlighted that similar tactics are being used in this government.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 28-Jan-13 11:51:47

garlicblocks there are hideous similarities, particularly with regard to the treatment of people with disabilities.

www.regent.edu/acad/schedu/uselesseaters/

manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 11:52:18

I'm sorry, Katy, but are you saying you agree with euthanising the old?

TheBigJessie Mon 28-Jan-13 11:54:49

I think Katy is saying the opposite.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 11:56:31

No, Manicbmc, but that's only because I'm superstitious and believe in embarrassing outmoded patriarchal religious humbug.

Without the belief that there is an Objective Good from which all Good derives and to which all Good is ultimately united, and that there is much more to life than avoiding discomfort here on Earth, I would have very little defense against Baroness Warnock and Peter Singer. Their logic is perfectly sound.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 11:57:19

Here's a page from a mental health support organisation. It shows Nazi advertisements about the shocking cost of disability to society, followed by quotes from our own press over the past two years ... about the shocking cost of disability to society.
mindinflux.wordpress.com/2010/10/26/disability-and-propaganda/

The author concludes:

"I am emphatically not saying that the government, media, or any person within them are akin to Nazis. Rather that propaganda is being used, with various levels of subtlety, and has been used for some time (by the previous Labour government too), to link the idea of sick or disabled people with being a financial burden on society, with being scroungers, with being workshy.

"The government and the media are being selective in how they disseminate information. This changes the attitude of the general public to the disabled, even if the comments are not specifically aimed at those who are genuinely unable to work. Even when an article is talking about people committing benefit fraud, it is again linking the idea of sickness with being workshy.

"Misleading headlines such as the Daily Mail one today makes the general public think that a very large percentage of people are pretending to be sick in order to claim benefits and live an easy life. Resentment towards the disabled people in our society is created.

"This then allows the cutting of disability benefits with little public outcry. (Compare outcry over cuts in child benefit to top 15% of earners, with limiting sickness benefits to 12 months, 20% cut in DLA, or removal of DLA to those in care homes.)

"But it is likely to have other even less desirable effects, with the attitude of many members of the public to vulnerable sick and disabled people having been fundamentally altered. Disabled people are already more likely to be victims of violence or harrassment than non disabled. 'Forty-seven per cent of disabled people have either experienced physical abuse or had witnessed physical abuse of a disabled companion'."

manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 12:00:04

That's good then, Katy. I don't believe in god and don't particularly like religion but I do have my own moral compass.

You don't have to believe to know that what they are saying is morally repugnant.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 12:00:10

Unfortunately, due to the meme of "Godwin's Law," invoking the Holocaust or Nazis, however relevantly, is instantly derided. If you mention Nazis, you are declared to have automatically lost the debate by default.

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 12:01:37

Lying, Thieving Bastards

That's how many disabled people are seen, by firms that are supposed to act in the best interests of said disabled people.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 12:02:08

manic could you please give me a good, logical argument against euthanizing someone with dementia? I mean someone who is really far gone, unable to feed themselves, needs their ass wiped, etc. What if there are a lot of such people and few people to care for them? Wouldn't it make logical sense to just end their suffering and free up resources for someone who is capable of enjoying life?

HecateWhoopass Mon 28-Jan-13 12:03:57

The point is, as I understand it, that the Holocaust did not begin with the Holocaust.

Someone didn't wake up one day and exterminate millions of people.

It began in small ways.

It began by changing the way people thought about certain groups of people. By planting the seed that some people were worth less, were a burden. Then guiding people to feel that they were somehow disadvantaged by the existence of these other people. Then let's see if we can just pop some people to one side. Maybe it might be a good idea to put certain people all in one place - for the benefit of all, you know...Let's see if we can stop supporting the vulnerable. I wonder who it is to blame for these tough times...Oooh, such a burden. Well, let's think about quality of life, shall we...

By the time you get to actually hurting people, you have changed the mentality of enough people that it is seen differently from just sending in the troops one monday morning and carting off anyone who is disabled/black/whatever.

If people can't see that atrocities don't happen out of the blue, but are slowly built up to, then I fear that yes, we are indeed condemned to repeat them.

I think people want to believe that those who were part of those times, those who took part or stood back and did nothing were, I dunno, evil or something. Because that feels safer than to think that they were, for the most part, ordinary people like you and me.

Cos we'd stop it, wouldn't we.

Would we?

What things are happening right now. Little things. That people are standing up and saying NO to?

So while I am not comparing what is happening right now to the actual Holocaust and think that to do so would be very disrespectful, I think that it is not impossible to believe that what has happened before could happen again.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 12:05:25

You make a sound and chilling point, Katy. If you only look at numbers, viewing any society as an engine of production, then each non-working member drags down the overall productivity. It's actually quite an easy principle to sell, until you remember that unproductive units are people with parents, sibling, friends, children and feelings!

We recognise the less-quantifiable value of human beings, and everyone's basic right to life, when we think about it. But it's still easy to yell "I don't see story telling and tea making on the balance sheet! Look at the cost of these units!" And it sounds rational ... sad

HecateWhoopass Mon 28-Jan-13 12:05:40

Oh, forgot one of the most important elements - fear. Fear that if you stick your head above the parapet - you'll be next!

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 12:08:30

Extremely important points, very well made Hecate.

manicbmc Mon 28-Jan-13 12:13:47

If I had time, yes I could Katy but I am about to go to work. I don't think I need to argue the point though. By my own morals it is wrong. My morals come from me and my upbringing which didn't include religion. Yours did include religion.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 12:14:59

Dawndonna, that article was depressing - if unsurprising! The Work Programme has been less successful than no programme at all, at getting claimants into work. It is costing £3 billion. The money goes to the firms, not the claimants. It allows the government to say it's helping people back into work, while in fact removing their choices and freedoms. It can then be made to look as if society tried to help these scroungers back to work, look how much we spent on them! And still the lazy shirkers won't get jobs!

<wonders where all these jobs are, anyway>

You've described it well, I fear, Hecate - the gradual build-up; the seeming inevitability sad

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 12:16:15

Manic & Katy, I have no patriarchal superstition religion either, and am capable of compassion all the same smile

slhilly Mon 28-Jan-13 12:17:08

Katy, pointing out the fundamental issues of moral relativism and postmodernism is fine and all that, but in case you hadn't noticed, moral absolutism and theism have produced a tremendous amount of evil as well. Religions haven't in practice been especially static in their views of what is right and wrong over the years, and a good thing too else we'd still be burning "witches" in this country.

Caricaturing Baroness Warnock as merely "some ethicist" is beyond absurd. She is one of the great philosophers of our time. She developed "statementing" and pioneered new approaches to the education of learning disabled children. She set in motion the development of the HFEA on a widely-agreed ethical basis. These were immense achievements in extremely vexed fields. You might do her the courtesy of finding out what she actually said, and appreciating the nuance, before dismissing her views out of hand.

Peter Singer is also one of the great philosophers of our time. His work is tremendously controversial but also profoundly important, as if we engage with it, we're forced to distinguish between opinions we hold for well-thought through reasons, and those we hold because they are simply comfortable.

I'm not arguing in any way that you should agree with the positions of either of them, and indeed I think it is absolutely fine if you ultimately view their ideas as dangerously wrong. These are big topics and deal with questions of good and evil, after all. But I do think you do yourself and others no favours if you just get cross with strawmen while ignoring what they are actually saying.

slhilly Mon 28-Jan-13 12:22:33

There is almost always a risk of a slippery slope from unpleasant policy X to some great evil. But that risk is usually pretty small, and I can't remember seeing a case where it would have been better to argue against the unpleasant policy on its own terms than argue against it because it might lead to a second Shoah (or slavery, or whichever other evil is being invoked).

It certainly seems clear to me that it's more important to talk about the real damage being done to disabled people today by a series of cruel policy decisions and a cheerleading press than to discuss the likelihood of a policy of mass annihilation of disabled people.

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 12:31:13

Taking into consideration the rather Benthamite policies of this government, it is probably not unreasonable to point out that in all likelihood, the death of a great many disabled people will be brought about by these cuts. The death of some having already occured due to a number of ATOS misdiagnoses.

moisturiser Mon 28-Jan-13 12:31:37

This issue scares me because I am disabled. But no, I do not think we are heading that way again.

The Holocaust happened for many reasons; a whole nation felt deeply humiliated and embittered, anti-semitism was entrenched in the country and once you have 'permission' to hate one group, it's easy to start hating and killing others.

Britain is a liberal, kind country. There are right wing idiots, of course, and in a recession people do as a group become more right wing. I do think there will continue to be a rise in hate crimes against people with disabilities, I do think that the Tories won't rest until disabled people lose huge amounts more money and freedoms (and are forced to move in with their families instead of being independent, which in some eyes is how society should operate hmm ). I do think there will be less tolerance of people being on benefits and people calling for food vouchers, etc. Things are definitely going in a horrible, scary direction. But I do nto think we are heading for the mass extermination of disabled people. There are too many educated, caring people in our society. It might feel like many don't care right now but personally I think things are going to get so bad over the next 5 years (when DLA goes) that people won't be able to avoid seeing how bad things are and will take a stand. Because lots of people are going to die, lose their jobs, lose their cars/independence and end up in care homes. It's easy enough to not see the suffering that exists right now, but it will multiply hugely. And actually, what is really important is not that people consider whether we are heading for mass extermination of a vulnerable group, but that people stand up on our behalf and say no to the terrible suffering that is already happening.

I do wish people knew more about how frightening it is to be disabled in 2013. But lots of people have no practical knowledge of disability and equally have no idea that they are a moment away from potentially becoming disabled themselves, so how can they really be prompted to care?

moisturiser Hear, hear. I have three children, two of whom are disabled. I am terrified of what is going to happen further down the line, what sort of a society they are going to grow into.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Mon 28-Jan-13 13:11:10

The idea that people with disabilities are lesser members of the human race and should be exterminated was not invented by the Nazis and did not, unfortunately, die with them. It is not an idea necessarily shared by people who self-idntify as right-wing, either; as a Tory voter who also happens to be the parent of a child with a disability I am getting heartily sick of being libelled in this fashion.
On a more pleasant note, and for those who genuinely want to remember the Holocaust with humility and compassion rather than make cheap points, if you did not watch the memorial music programme shown by BBC4 last night, I thoroughly recommend you try and catch it.

fromparistoberlin Mon 28-Jan-13 13:13:44

I think you are scaremongering to be honest

one dickhead does not mean Nazi-ism is restarting

Orwellian Mon 28-Jan-13 13:21:52

It scares me that one silly person's opinion can be conflated with the holocaust. Sorry but there is no comparison. OP, your thread trivialises something that was genuinely horrific on a huge scale. If you think the comments of one minor figure in a minor party compare to the deeds of the architects of the holocaust then you are deluded.

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 13:27:31

I think those of you that consider this to be scaremongering are being rude. Somebody has a genuine fear, surely kind reassurance would be better. Or even discussion.
I don't think the comments of one minor figure matter a great deal, but having been on the receiving end of an organised campaign of disability hate crime, I do believe that the OP has a valid point.
I also feel that to close one's eyes to the reality of the situation, a situation compounded by the likes of the Daily Mail, is dangerous.

HecateWhoopass Mon 28-Jan-13 13:39:08

Agree.

As a person with disabilities myself and the mother of 2 children with disabilities, I for one am very well aware how things are for us right now. And that it ain't getting better. I am afraid for the future for my children. They are never going to be able to live independently and I shudder to think what care and support will mean by the time I am gone and they're on their own.

and also, oddly, I am not deafened by the cries of the general public that what is being done to us is not fair and must stop.

Strange that.

Perhaps I have lost my hearing without realising it...

lovelyladuree Mon 28-Jan-13 13:39:25

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HecateWhoopass Mon 28-Jan-13 13:42:30

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Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 13:45:38

Lovelyladuree I have reported your disgusting post.
Your views are not welcome here.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 13:46:56

I agree with OP and Hecate. I was watching Genocide under the Nazis last night, which very much brought home to me how the slow drip drip process happens.

aleene Mon 28-Jan-13 13:48:32

Ridiculous comments Lovely Laduree. Are you always this narrow minded?

aleene Mon 28-Jan-13 13:50:57

Op is suggesting that there is choice. Compulsory abortion is an abhorrent idea, to most people. Where are your statistics that more people are choosing to have a disabled child?

LovelyLaduree did you read the Daily Mail instead of Spot the Dog as a child?

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 13:54:29

I agree that loveladuree's comments are repugnant, but I don't think they should be removed. Once we start brushing these comments under the carpet we can pretend that they don't exist and we have nothing to worry about.

As Hecate says, most of us don't have much experience of what is happening to people with disabilities and hence we are ignoring the situation, instead of being up in arms about it.

TranceDaemon Mon 28-Jan-13 13:54:42

I find it astonishing that so many people are sitting back and just watching while the sick and disabled are demonised by the scumbags in power at the moment. Astonishing and deeply depressing. People seem to think that they are somehow 'different' from those who are currently having their lives decimated whilst being labelled as 'scroungers'. It actually makes me feel so fucking angry I could explode.

What the fuck happened to compassion, empathy? Why do people think that they are somehow immune from sickness or disability? Who knows how your life could change tomorrow.

This 'I'm alright Jack' Tory propaganda bollocks makes me fucking sick.

fromparistoberlin Mon 28-Jan-13 13:56:54

lovely laduree

easy tiger, to make comments like that on a site that as as SN friendly as MN is frankly cruel

But thats what you wanted right, to upset people??

well done, slow clap. you knew exactly what you wanted when you posted that right?

tabulahrasa Mon 28-Jan-13 14:10:33

Geoffrey Clark isn't just someone spouting off on a website though - 27% of voters either agreed with him, didn't disagree with it enough to vote for someone else or voted for someone without knowing what he believes in....

More than a quarter of adults who voted in Gravesham!

Ullena Mon 28-Jan-13 14:14:10

I promise to stick my head over the parapet for anyone being mistreated.

Have done so before, several times. More people need to try it, imo. It gets less scary each time. I got punched once for it...turns out I have a mean left hook and the linguistic skill of a sailor when required.

As you were [salutes grandad's memory]

Badvoc Mon 28-Jan-13 14:23:28

The owners if the daily mail were hitler admirers and nazi sympathisers.
They don't like to advertise that fact, though.
Most atrocities start during times of economic recession and racial tension.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 14:25:43

*If I had time, yes I could Katy but I am about to go to work. I don't think I need to argue the point though. By my own morals it is wrong. My morals come from me and my upbringing which didn't include religion. Yours did include religion."

Manic and Garlic I would say that your upbringing did have religion, even if it's just the vestiges of it. You have the beliefs you do about human life because you were raised in a society that has those beliefs. There are cultures (or there were) that have very different beliefs. Killing the elderly or unwanted infants was quite common and openly accepted in quite a few cultures. Pre-Christian Europe killed unwanted infants (Rome, Iceland) and performed human sacrifices (Celts.) While Christianity is not unique in teaching those things are wrong, it is the reason why Europeans no longer do those things.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 14:30:40

Orwellian and paris, it's not the comments of a solitary dickhead that concern me. The fact he got a 27% vote indicates growing support for the disenfranchisement, perceived uselessness and subsequent elimination of citizens with disabilities.

The Useless Eaters website Sunny linked to makes a very clear argument that current social, political and academic trends reprise those of 1933-48 Germany.

KKK, I disagree that recognising the systematic murder of a quarter of a million disabled people in any way devalues the memory of Jews, Gypsies and Blacks murdered under the same programme. What an odd thought.

I agree that loveladuree's comments are repugnant, but I don't think they should be removed. - Neither do I. Pretending it's not happening allows it to happen in front of us.

Ullena - good for you! And your grandad grin

thesnootyfox Mon 28-Jan-13 14:32:21

It makes me feel sick when I think of how selfish and repulsive lots of people are.

Its not just bigots like the UKIP guy I have family and friends who are expressing some distasteful views at the moment.

I weep for the future.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 14:37:24

Katy. A German bishop finally raised an outcry against the extermination programme - after more than a decade of murders, and following increasing dissent from other quarters. Although the gassing programme then ceased, disabled children and adults continued to be systematically killed in 'care homes' and hospitals, where forced abortions and sterilisations also carried on for several more years.

One Church spokesman made a difference. Countless others mutely complied. You say While Christianity is not unique in teaching those things are wrong, it is the reason why Europeans no longer do those things. It's been pretty ineffective at that. Let's hope it can buck its ideas up, eh?

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 14:40:44

slhilly, I have read what they've said in context. I admit that I've read more of Peter Singer's writing than Baroness Warnock's, but I've read them. And, I have said that their logic is flawless.

For all I know, the world might actually be a better place if we removed a lot of the burden (especially those who aren't enjoying their lives, anyway.) Fewer, but happier lives.

I think people are already getting there. I hear a lot of people saying in discussions on euthanasia that they'd hate to be a burden on their children. I think in a few decades it might be considered selfish to insist on sitting around drooling and reeking of pee and just bringing everybody down.

I mean, it's legal to drive a Range Rover in the city, but we do rather look down on it, don't we?

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 14:43:42

Fuck me. Is that your opinion as a Christian, Katy?

shock

Ullena Mon 28-Jan-13 14:48:24

Grandad always had war stories. He also emphasised that individual people had to be the ones to watch out for one another, as governments couldn't be relied upon or trusted to not go bad...

I am glad he didn't live to see all this. It would have broken his heart.

BreconBeBuggered Mon 28-Jan-13 14:51:27

Jesus wept, Katy. I don't remember that bit from Sunday School. I thought it was more about bearing one another's burdens than wiping out burdensome relations.

Badvoc Mon 28-Jan-13 14:53:44

Diedrich Bonhoeffer did try to raise awareness of what the nazis were doing.
He was - pretty much - ignored.
The Red Cross also knew about the camps as early as 1941.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 14:57:56

Garlic No. My opinion as a Christian is that suffering has value and that we should simultaneously embrace our own suffering while trying to reduce our neighbour's suffering while always respecting the sanctity of life. I won't bore you with the theology of it, but it's to do with the belief that God chooses to suffer alongside us and shows us that there is always hope.

But, without this belief - which is possibly just a silly superstition that makes me feel guilty when I touch myself and makes me sound like some sort of backwards American idiot when I talk about it publicly - I might actually believe what I've been saying. After all, highly-regarded and Very Important Philosophers, who are given peerages and chairs at prestigious universities believe it.

petitepeach Mon 28-Jan-13 14:59:04

garlicblocs I think that useless eaters should be compulsive reading... It has made me feel sick to the pit of my stomach...... Very disturbing sad

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:07:06

The strivers vs skivers rhetoric is very damaging, but I think that comparing 2013 with the 1930s is ridiculous.

For one thing, we are much more connected now. The thing that is enabling idiots like Geoffrey Clark to be heard beyond Gravesham, Kent is the very thing that would stop this going further.

When a comment such as that is made, and it inevitably goes viral, with FB and Twitter imploding in rage, we do have to remember that it was the comment of one person.

Katy
I find your posts most disturbing. Many people are not religious, but would find the killing of disabled or elderly abhorrent.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:09:56

I've debated morality among the godless at some length on threads in the religion board, Katy. I'm both irreligious and moral although I gather some don't believe that's possible. I've also advanced evolutionary theories as to why compassion is hard-wired in mammals, especially humans. The religion board is a suitable place for these discussions, or you could start a new one here or in Chat.

I can't see any advantage to you in trying to show christianity is the only defence against cruelty. For one thing, you'd lose; the church has a poor record on the whole - I hope it'll do better this time. For another, you risk sounding as though you want all non-christians to support 'euthanasia'. That would be unchristian of you.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 15:11:04

MmeLindor, I know you do. I don't think that only religious people find the idea repugnant. But, the fact remains that there are people - highly respected people - who openly argue that we should kill the infirm. It's my opinion that they are going to gain ground.

I don't know if it will result in forcible killing or if people will just be very strongly urged to do the "ethical" and unselfish thing.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:11:54

The strivers vs skivers rhetoric is very damaging - and is the same as that used in the recession of the 1930s. In Germany.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 15:13:37

garlic I specifically said that Christianity is not the only defense against cruelty. I said that it's not unique. I'm sure there are many philosophies that have the same view on the subject of euthanasia.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:15:20

yes, Garlic, but you cannot reduce the whole argument to that one point.

There was no internet is 1933. There was no previous holocaust to scare people from going too far. There was a totally different society.

It is wrong to use the Holocaust in this way, imo.

Yes, I speak out against anyone who partakes in benefit bashing, or uses disabilist language, but I reject the idea that we are heading that way again.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:15:56

Indeed there are, Katy smile Phew!

I fear we need a more concerted voice, though - and the internet does help, yes.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:18:18

MmeL, did you visit the Useless Eaters website? It's slightly hard work - and there's one little bit I didn't like about abortion - but highly illuminating. The argument looks very clear to me.

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 15:19:08

I think I've joined the cast of Logan's Run.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:20:30

It is wrong to use the Holocaust in this way, imo.

The Holocaust included the disabled, don't people get that? It was all part of the same programme, to eradicate "defectives". It was sold to the country as economic sense.

Cailleach Mon 28-Jan-13 15:21:11

Most ancient societies practised infanticide for a fairly simple reason: if a person was unable or unwilling to contribute to that society they posed a direct risk to it. Ditto if they were just another mouth to feed when a family's resources wouldn't stretch that far.

It's all very well looking back and being horrified from the vantage point of the 21st century, with all its labour-saving devices, comfy heated homes and cheap and abundant food. Bear in mind that survival as a group when you had to grow / raise every scrap of food for yourself, ditto your heating-and-cooking wood, and make all your own clothes and utensils means that each and every member of that group has to pull their weight, or else - listen now please - the rest of the group suffers and is at risk.

Ancient peoples would not have understood keeping a disabled child alive, especially one with severe congenital conditions. To them that person would have taken up scarce and valuable resources that were desperately needed by the able-bodied.

The more adverse a climate, the more pressing the need to dispose of people that couldn't contribute to the group, which is why the Romans noted that various Northern European peoples even killed people considered lazy by the rest of the group.

What has changed that survival of the fittest mentality isn't so much religion but technology and birth control.

Harsh, but true.

DizzyHoneyBee Mon 28-Jan-13 15:21:45

"This time the dickheads are running the country though. Bit different."

I think you'll find that Hitler was running Germany....same situation then if you regard the current government as dickheads.

Kendodd Mon 28-Jan-13 15:23:39

At the risk of being torn to sheds-

I think disabled people should work and see absolutely no reason for them to be written of as not 'fit' for work. Most disabled people have a 'fit' mind, with the right help/support some of them can do great things and most of them can do ordinary things. Also, I think working/being busy, is massively beneficial to most people whether disabled or not and we are not doing people any favours just signing them off for a lifetime on benefits. I think this is rightly being addressed. Where all these jobs are going to come from, well, that's another question.

Also I agree that by comparing re-classifying people as fit to work with Nazism looses you any argument.

Nancy66 Mon 28-Jan-13 15:24:40

I agree wth MmeLindor - the holocaust comparison is crass and misguided.

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 15:27:29

Cailleach Then we became civilised.

The comparison with the holocaust is neither crass nor misguided. It's people that start shouting the comparisons that stop it happening again.

DolomitesDonkey Mon 28-Jan-13 15:28:49

I think you're mistaking one person's "rather strange" views to be representative of those of a nation.

I don't see us as a nation moving anywhere near the extermination of those with disabilities - that's quite a leap to have made!

Harriet35 Mon 28-Jan-13 15:32:11

Comparing cutting benefits to putting people in gas chambers is utterly asinine, and does not do the people complaining about the cuts any favours at all.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Mon 28-Jan-13 15:37:29

"The owners if the daily mail were hitler admirers and nazi sympathisers.
They don't like to advertise that fact, though."
Given the people you are referring to are dead, liking anything isn;t really an option for them.
if we're holding historical associations against people, though, no doubt you'll be swift to point out that Oswald Mosley at one stage felt his natural home was the Labour Party.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 15:39:04

Unfortunately, Ken, your two provisos: "with the right help/support" and "where are all these jobs going to come from" are not theoretical issues.

The government withdrew funding from Remploy, the largest and most successful organisation that got disabled people into work, which has now had to close. DLA, which provides financial help for disabled people to get support, has been cut down and is being replaced with the much harsher PIP system. The Social Fund is being closed. "Help and support" are being cut off, not extended.

There are nine healthy people for every job vacancy (including unsocial and zero-hour jobs.) When signing on for JSA, people are required to state that they are fit for work. If they are not able to do a full-time job, they don't qualify for the benefit.

This happens even when the DWP has declared a disabled person "not disabled" and fit for work. The claimant would have to lie to get JSA, and will then have their benefit stopped if they can't manage full-time work activity, on the Work Programme for example. The consequent benefit gap is the reason for many of the recent suicides.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:40:15

Ken
I see what you are trying to say - In Germany companies above a certain size have to employ people who are termed as 'disabled' to a certain degree. This can include disabilities ranging from partially sighted, to those with life limiting illness, even those with severe skin conditions. The governement basically forces companies to employ those who they normally would not because they require some assistance, or are likely to need time off due to doc appointments, or because they are sick.

I think that helping people back into work is a good thing - but then our government withdraws funding for Remploy.

Garlic
No,I didn't read the website. I don't think that it has relevance to what is happening in UK today, and think it is misguided and insulting to the survivors of the Holocaust to say insist that it does.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 15:41:42

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Can I come live in the lovely world that some users live in where being disabled doesn't attract abuse and where it's only a tiny minority treating disabled people badly? It sounds lovely! I much prefer it to this world.

Nancy66 Mon 28-Jan-13 15:42:14

Hilter was a mad man who hated everyone:

Jews
blacks
asians
disabled
the elderly
the overweight
homosexuals
gypsies

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Mon 28-Jan-13 15:44:24

"KKK, I disagree that recognising the systematic murder of a quarter of a million disabled people in any way devalues the memory of Jews, Gypsies and Blacks murdered under the same programme. What an odd thought."
You were not "recogniosing" (I think you probably meant "remembering") the urder of disabled people in the Holocaust. You were using it to make cheap points against those you disagree with politically. The more I think about this the more it disgusts me, frankly. There are plenty of battles I have to fight as the parent of a child with a disability and having to do so in association with people who makes points like yours pisses me off.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:45:53

MurderofGoths
I am sure that abuse towards disabled people exists. I see enough on Twitter and FB to know that.

I still don't think it equated to the Holocaust, which was the planned extermination of several groups of society, including disabled but also jews, gays, Romany gypsies and anyone who disagreed with the Nazis.

KatyTheCleaningLady Mon 28-Jan-13 15:52:36

I know we were all shocked by that expose program that showed the abuse to residents in a care home. I think the problem is that the employees aren't exactly of the highest caliber and they're sort of bored and not given anything constructive to do because it's probably pretty much minimum wage work. Nobody is willing to pay for the quality of employee that we'd expect in a school.

It's sort of like the hospitals that starve the infirm. I would almost say that it's done deliberately. Not consciously deliberately but... well... that wrinkled old thing in the corner is just sitting there, taking up space and when one is already so very busy (due to staffing cuts) it's just so easy to let it go in that direction...

BreconBeBuggered Mon 28-Jan-13 15:55:58

Knowing how the Holocaust was allowed to happen by gradually dehumanising groups within society so as to eventually admit the notion of exterminating the 'enemy' is, I hope, what will prevent us going down that same path. We cannot afford to be complacent about how liberal and caring we think our society actually is.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 15:58:23

I still don't think it equated to the Holocaust, which was the planned extermination of several groups of society, including disabled but also jews, gays, Romany gypsies and anyone who disagreed with the Nazis.

Hitler didn't come in 1933 and say 'Right, I'll kill all the Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals etc...' The point the Useless Eaters website makes,(and the link I gave earlier to the BBC history site), is that this was a slow insidious process. Unless we are vigilant, it could happen again.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 15:59:16

This idea that the Holocaust was allowed to happen by the gradual erosion of resistance -- you do realise that there was something else that happened at the same time?

The Nazis developed a system, they had a plan. It was not the work of one madman, that is far too simplistic. But it was also not a drifting of opinion.

Mme I agree that it doesn't equate to the Holocaust. I was mostly responding to the posters who seem to think abuse for the disabled is minimal.

I do however think that some of the tactics used to marginalise the disabled are very like those used by the Nazis.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 16:02:22

Yes. LaV but this idea assumes that at the end of our drifting, another Hitler will come along and take advantage of our weak will.

Does anyone really think that there is a danger of this happening? That the UK, and indeed the world, would stand by and let it happen? When a statement made now is being read in Seattle, in Sydney and in Moscow within seconds of it being published on the internet.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 16:02:35

No, it wasn't the work of one madman - as the Useless Eaters website makes perfectly clear, substantial numbers of other people were quite happy to go along with what was happening, including members of the medical profession.

"The Nazis developed a system, they had a plan. It was not the work of one madman, that is far too simplistic. But it was also not a drifting of opinion."

Yes, the Nazis had a plan, but the general public was brought onside somehow. From everything I've seen/read/heard there was a gradual erosion of the general publics views. There was some incredible propaganda which utilised things like the country being in an economic hole to point blame at people that were seen to be stealing from the righteous German public. The hard working public were, subtly, told that if it wasn't for [insert persecuted group] they'd be well off and living comfortable and joyful lives.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 16:04:08

I refer you back to Hecate's earlier post. Mr Hitler never once announced his government was going to murder Jews, blacks, Asians, disabled, homosexuals and gypsies. He began with an advertising campaign to highlight the burden on taxpayers caused by disabled people. The financial costs to society were enumerated. These advertisements progressed to more emotional messages depicting the disabled as useless weights, shirkers, a damaging presence in communities dragging everyone down and contributing nothing.

I will certainly defend my observation that we're already at this stage in Britain.

Back in pre-war Germany, this stage marked a growth in public support for his hate campaign until families were recommending their own members for euthanasia. The killing could now be done more systematically, although they had already quietly begun with lethal injections and starvation in hospitals.

The campaign against the disabled worked so well, the same methods were used to demonise - then ghettoise and murder - Jews and other "defectives".

"Does anyone really think that there is a danger of this happening? That the UK, and indeed the world, would stand by and let it happen?"

Greece. Golden Dawn.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 16:07:26

MmeL

Does anyone really think that there is a danger of this happening? That the UK, and indeed the world, would stand by and let it happen?

Yes, unfortunately I do think it's possible although maybe not in the form of another Hitler. Despite the prevalence of social media few of us really know about the cuts that are happening to disability benefits.

MmeLindor Mon 28-Jan-13 16:20:48

Greece. Golden Dawn thousands marched in protest against this

Did thousands march against Hitler?

This is my point.

The damaging rhetoric by both the Labour and the Tory parties is leading to an increase in abuse towards disabled people in UK.

Know what was all over Twitter today heardwhiledisabled - a hashtag to point out the kind of abuse disabled people are hearing every day in UK.

There is a pushback now that there wasn't in 1930s. And we are hearing about it, on Social Media, on the news, in the papers.

It needs to be heard more but conflating this to the Holocaust is, in my opinion damaging your cause.

I am happy to make a noise on Twitter, on FB, to write a blog post, to pressure my MP and help to draw attention to this, but I recently unfollowed someone for using the Holocaust in this way.

It is, as Karlos said, being used for cheap political point scoring. And for that reason, I am out.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 16:30:06

I don't think a comparison with the Holocaust is cheap political point scoring. I bet if you had told the average German in 1933 that by the time 12 years had passed 6 million Jews would have been murdered they would have been horrified. I, and others here, are saying that we need to be vigilant to stop something like that happening again.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 16:30:29

I want to be wrong! Really - obviously - I do!

But, on page 5 now, all anyone's been able to offer by way of reassurance is "We're all much nicer now" and/or "We have better media, it couldn't happen."

Erm, do any of you read the comments on the Daily Fail and Sun websites?

If you're not a benefits recipient, have you kept up with what's happening? Do you know anybody falling through the benefits gap or facing homelessness? With all the great communications we have now, how many first-hand accounts have you read or heard? They're available if you look - but who's looking?

What about the elderly: my mother's terrified of having to go for in-patient treatment at hospital. She thinks they deliberately let old people die. I thought she was being melodramatic until I found out she isn't. Now - despite my many issues with our relationship - if she does have to go in I'll be there every day, making sure she is fed and watered.

What are your views on the Liverpool Care Pathway? Devised as a compassionate way for the terminally ill to die pain-free, there's now controversy over whether it's being used to ease 'nuisance' patients into death. Some hospitals get paid extra for achieving LCP targets. I don't know enough about this topic to have an opinion, but it worries me - as do the increasingly-frequent stories of seriously ill patients being discharged without transport, and other life-threatening indignities.

And look at the deliberately misleading anti "skiver" statements issued by our government on a weekly basis, which are repeated on the front pages, while the retractions barely get any cover at all.

As a poster said, I wish I lived in this cosy world where everything's safe & lovely.

"Did thousands march against Hitler? "

Yes they did.

Just trying to find information on it, saw it on a documentary ages ago and, typically, can't remember the details.

Nancy66 Mon 28-Jan-13 16:37:38

I don't think there were ever sizable demonstrations against the nazis - mainly due to fear.

The resistance movement was pretty small

Before Hitler became chancellor there were. By the time he'd got into position as chancellor he had the SS to stop any protests.

He didn't start off powerful and feared.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 16:45:39

By 1933 he was actually losing support, however once he got into power he was able to change the laws to his advantage.

Nancy66 Mon 28-Jan-13 16:48:37

...how is this relevant? What are people saying? That they think David Cameron is going to start exterminating millions of people?

No, saying that it is all too easy for people to be manipulated into thinking that all the problems they have (especially financial) are the fault of some other. And from there it isn't such a leap to believe that the "other" should be punished. Not saying concentration camps etc. But there are other ways to punish people. The scary part is how quickly people will let that happen.

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 17:47:11

In 1930-32 there were huge protests against the NSDAP (Nazi party), many violent.

Hannover enacted a law banning the Hitlerjugend (the Hitler Youth), Bavaria banned all political uniforms, Prussia prohibited the wearing of SA brown shirts and associated insignia then passed a law against its officials holding membership in either the NSDAP or KPD. Goebbels was convicted of high treason. The government placed the army officers on trial for "forming national socialist cells".

Between 1932-34, Hitler seized absolute power by violence and murdered all of his known enemies. It became a capital crime to oppose his party. There were continued protests, but their leaders were quickly caught and killed.

Greece is attempting to learn from history; conditions are similar in many ways and I hope they succeed in keeping Golden Dawn on the sidelines. Traditionally, an economically anxious middle class provides fertile ground for extreme Right policies which is what's worrying me. As MOG says above, it is all too easy for people to be manipulated into thinking that all the problems they have (especially financial) are the fault of some other. And from there it isn't such a leap to believe that the "other" should be punished.

I don't know anything of Mr Cameron's own views, except that the rich should be helped to get richer ... Lord Freud and Mr Duncan Smith, however, make their ignorance and loathing of ordinary people - particularly the poor and disadvantaged - clearer every time they speak. No higher authority seems to be reining them in; if anything they're being given more power, so I have to assume Mr Cameron shares and promotes their open hatred of the less-well-off. We are certainly being sold the belief that our vulnerable citizens are an intolerable burden on Britain.

The Conservatives' bizarre immigration policy also seems to be demonising non-nationals as a supposed source of economic distress and, likewise, seeks to destroy families and incur huge costs on an ideological basis, while making it even more difficult for immigrants to actually contribute to the economy. Is this the next easy target being set up?

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 18:05:21

We are certainly being sold the belief that our vulnerable citizens are an intolerable burden on Britain.

The Conservatives' bizarre immigration policy also seems to be demonising non-nationals as a supposed source of economic distress and, likewise, seeks to destroy families and incur huge costs on an ideological basis, while making it even more difficult for immigrants to actually contribute to the economy. Is this the next easy target being set up?

I so agree with this. You should hear my Daily Mail reading MIL go on and on and on about blacks, immigrants etc. etc. coming in and scrounging and taking our jobs and housing. How many does she know? Well her grand daughter in law is half black and she is in work, and then there are a few black people and some Poles at her church, who are in work, but somehow these are all exceptions. She owns her own house so isn't dependent on the Council for her housing. So how many of these so called 'scroungers' actually affect her? None. Sadly a situation all too typical of Daily Mail readers, I suspect.

SuffolkNWhat Mon 28-Jan-13 18:31:56

Those who are saying it wouldn't/couldn't happen again?

Tell that to Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur.

The Nazis were legally voted in, they gained power in the polling stations. Although Hitler's views were known from Mein Kampf no one thought they would mean anything, or come to anything. They were just words after all.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 28-Jan-13 18:33:19

I've said for a long time that the political landscape in this country resembles early 1930's Germany. I've been derided for it, too.

Of course it's not at Holocaust levels now, but the political climate we are in right now is what allowed it to happen.

Political apathy... Recession.

And all the while we have the spin that the cuts are exempting disabled people. Only they're not. Because if you are cutting the Carer of a disabled person's income by £83 a week how is that not affecting said disabled person when they are financially dependent on that carer?

ESA isn't considered a disability benefit yet the vast majority of those claiming it are incapacitated by disability. Many claims denied by ATOS are being overturned at Tribunal so what is happening? The right to appeal is being removed.

People are dying after being found fit for work. The numbers are now in their hundreds.

Disabled hate crime on the rise... Definitely. In that I've actually seen it whereas before I didn't.

Disabled people have been shouting about this for two years now, yet the mainstream media rarely picks up reports such as Spartacus, and even then it's a tiny clip or a small box in the paper. Why the silence? Library closures was huge in the media yet retaining the dignity of people with disabilities is largely ignored.

Even on here the silence is deafening when these issues are raised.

So, not at Holocaust yet but the conditions are going the right way. To be disabled or a Carer for a disabled person now is frankly terrifying and the refusal to acknowledge this by the many makes it so much worse.

thebody Mon 28-Jan-13 18:42:15

Registered general nurses in Stafford hospital were obviously so devoid of commen humanity, empathy or professionalism that they stood back while patients died of dehydration ( some drank flower water) lay in filthy beds in their own excreta and begging for attention.

As a qualified nurse myself this makes me weep.

If a prevailing culture is cruel and amoral then there will always be those who will follow.

AndrewBradford Mon 28-Jan-13 18:46:43

I am the author of the text in the original post. I am the son of two parents who were both severely physically handicapped, and two years ago I went to Auschwitz and saw and heard about the Nazis treatment of the disabled for myself. I don't know who posted an extract here, but they're more than welcome and I'm glad it provoked such a lot of comment.

You can read the full article on my website:http://www.andrewbradfordauthor.com/apps/blog/

garlicblocks Mon 28-Jan-13 18:50:12

Thank you, Andrew smile Please stick around!

I agree that there is increasing hostility to certain sections of society. I dont have any direct experience of this from the point of being disabled but I do think it is a wider problem as well - the last few years there has been a demonization of anyone deemed to be a "scrounger" or just in fact anyone who isnt a white, middle class person in full health. In my own experience I have been on the receiving end of some vile comments about being a "scrounger' when I have been out with my family - I work and dont claim benefits but since I have 5 kids people assume I dont and frankly even If I had 20 kids and never worked a day in my life some of the things people sat are beyond a joke. I think its a symptom of the changing nature of the country and I assume part of the same as the changing attitude towards disabled people.

Im not sure it will end in holocaust but I dont know where it WILL end.

elizaregina Mon 28-Jan-13 18:55:13
sparklyjumper Mon 28-Jan-13 19:04:28

I agree with OP. V for Vendetta anyone ?

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Mon 28-Jan-13 19:39:03

'Despite the prevalence of social media few of us really know about the cuts that are happening to disability benefits.' LaVulcan

^ this ^

People don't WANT to know, it's uncomfortable, it's scary & it challenges the false security people build their lives on. They don't want to be told they are only a month away from a disabled life. It's easier to blame the disabled people themselves, make them into the fat, ugly, lazy, skivving 'other'.

I have become disabled & it makes me SICK the way people treat me. Half the time I am treated like a disgusting, stupid, less than human THING, the other half I am allowed to be disabled as I am the DESERVING disabled as I was a fully functioning 'normal' person paging higher rate taxes before I became ill. Both attitudes stick in my craw. And it's only going to get worse as long as the recession is biting.

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 19:59:53

By comparing what is happening now to the Holocaust, we are not conflating it. A comparison is just that. This is how it happened, people denying what was happening, a willing media, (Sun, Mail) a government not connected to the people.
The Holocaust was the most disgusting shameful thing to have happened in the history of the earth, which is why some of you can't accept what others are saying. But my god, it's so, so easy to slip back there when you are making accusations of others belittling the history of others. It is nobodys intention to do so. But take note. People are already dying, I've said this earlier. People are dying, disabled people with serious heart conditions, learning disabilities, multiple sclerosis and terminal cancer are being found fit for work.
My children, fortunately don't understand. My dh, a one time philosophy lecturer understands only too well. He is terrified.

Harriet35 Mon 28-Jan-13 20:06:51

How were disabled people in THIS country treated in the 1940s?

Dawndonna Mon 28-Jan-13 20:14:27

The first Remploy factories opened in the 1940s here. Unfortunately the end of the war conincided with a mass polio outbreak, so as well as war veterans there were significant numbers of young people with disabilities too.
Schools were opened and some schools accepted students with disabilities. So it was the slow start of integration.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 20:45:10

The Holocaust was the most disgusting shameful thing to have happened in the history of the earth, which is why some of you can't accept what others are saying.

Do you say this because of the sheer numbers involved? Otherwise there have been many disgusting and shameful acts throughout history. What particularly disturbs me in this case is that Germany was a highly educated or civilised society which degenerated into barbarism. If it could happen to them, then I believe it could happen to us all.

How did we tread disabled people in the 1940s? As far as I know we didn't kill them, but many proponents of euthanasia were British - George Bernard Shaw springs to mind. Not that it's wrong per se to want a healthy population - but providing optimal diet and living conditions would be one way forward. Killing the weak to my mind is evil.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Mon 28-Jan-13 21:30:49

Dawn is completely right, people ARE ALREADY DYING. Unpalatable, but true.

Btw in the 1940s we may not of gone out of our way to kill the disabled, but we weren't exactly helping them live either.

Soldiers with spinal injuries were transported back to the uk in open boxes... Coffins. The focus was on locking them away & at best easing their pain til death from untreated complications or horrific bed sores. And these were our war heroes, so goodness knows what happens to the general population of people & children with disabilities.

When I was at secondary school we used to do coffee mornings & befriending schemes for the local 'mental institution'. We were told that a large number of the people who loved there didn't have any mental illness but had been sent there as children as they had things like epilepsy. They were all 60+ when I was there & the place had stopped accepting new 'patients many years before, they just looked after the poor people shut in & so institutionalized they never had a chance to be who they really were.

AndrewBradford Mon 28-Jan-13 21:36:16

Harriet asked "How were disabled people in THIS country treated in the 1940s?"

Surprisingly well, compared to earlier decades.

My mum (Kathy) and dad (Charlie) were born in 1906 and 1912 respectively,and both caught polio when they were toddlers. Dad was considered unemployable when he left school (so at the age of 14 he peddled sweets from a wheelchair outside the local grammar school) until 1940 when he was conscripted into the labour force at the age of 34 to make parts for Wellington bombers. He was never unemployed again.

Here's Kathy's story:

"Kathy was a talented needlewoman. She left school at fourteen (in 1926) and worked as tailoress until she married. Her first job lasted one year, so did her second job and then her third job. When she was sacked for the third time she asked her employer why she was being dismissed, and she was told that the boss had found out that because of her disability, the employer would have to pay extra national insurance contributions, backdated. They couldn’t afford to pay that. Somebody else could do the job more cheaply. She had to go. She therefore came to an arrangement that she would re-imburse the firm for the extra national insurance stamp. She did this for ten years until the start of World War II, and she recorded all the payments she made in a series of notebooks. In 1938 she attended one of the first meetings of what became the British Polio Fellowship, a self-help organisation for people with her disability. A few years later the Polio Fellowship submitted these notebooks as evidence to the Beveridge Commission, and the national insurance rules were changed."

The Beveridge report created the National health Service in 1948. This meant that Kathy and Charlie no longer had to buy wheelchairs, crutches and leg-irons out of their own meagre financial resources. It meant that they could marry and raise a family - without it I would never have been born.

I am the author of "Live Eels and Grand Pianos" - the story of Kathy's and Charlie's' remarkable lives. Read more about it at www.andrewbradfordauthor.com

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 21:46:58

DoubleLife - you talk about people in mental institutions. My parents used to go and visit a neighbour who went into a Home when she got Alzheimer's. One of her fellow residents was a lady who had been in a mental hospital and once they were closed down she was too institutionalised to live in the community. She had been sent to the mental hospital (some time before the war) because she had had a child out of wedlock. At least some things have improved since those days.

Sunnywithshowers Mon 28-Jan-13 22:10:41

I think the treatment of people with disabilities varied.

Two of the Queen's cousins had learning disabilities and were in an institution near to where I live. One of them may still alive.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 28-Jan-13 22:27:28

I believe Katherine Bowes-Lyon is still alive. Her sister Nerissa died a while ago.

They were institutionalised long before the 40s though, born in the 20s.

Thing is disability always has a cost. The reason care was moved to the community was the huge cost to the NHS of keeping people in institutions.

So, Carers save this country £118 billion a year, yet our benefits are still being cut, despite us saving the country money. We're scrounging scum, I know that after being awake all night with one of the kids my blinds have been down during the day gasp

I fail to see why disabled people are being demonised in the way they are now, or their Carers.

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 23:29:35

I fail to see why disabled people are being demonised in the way they are now, or their Carers.

I know that someone will object when I say this - but with David Cameron having had a severely disabled son, one might expect him to champion the disabled more.

It's a damning reflection on our society that we are making the disabled pay for the current economic woes.

Nancy66 Mon 28-Jan-13 23:44:02

Unless bus loads of the disabled are being secretly wheeled off and gassed - then I still say that comparisons to the holocaust are ridiculous and like something you'd expect to hear in sixth form common room debate.

PeneloPeePitstop Mon 28-Jan-13 23:50:54

No you're not allowed to say that, La V wink

LaVolcan Mon 28-Jan-13 23:52:26

Nancy66 - No one is saying that this is happening now, but what some of us are saying is that it could be the start of the slippery slope. I hope to God not, I hope we do learn some lessons from history.

superstarheartbreaker Tue 29-Jan-13 00:01:28

I am of the opinion that the conservatives do have a tendancy to come across as pro-eugenic; thinly disguised by their disgusting financial policies.

Kungfutea Tue 29-Jan-13 01:20:57

Comparing how the disabled are treated in this country to the holocaust cheapens both. You may have valid points to make but you should be able to do so without resorting to trying to shock with reference to the holocaust. The Rwandan genocide is comparable to the holocaust, this is not. Especially distasteful given that holocaust memorial day was yesterday.

"Unless bus loads of the disabled are being secretly wheeled off and gassed - then I still say that comparisons to the holocaust are ridiculous and like something you'd expect to hear in sixth form common room debate."

I kind of agree, but think comparisons to early National Socialism are worryingly appropriate. Unfortunately most debates I've seen on it tend to end up with people saying that until the disabled are being gassed then it's overreacting, spectacularly missing the point about it being in increments.

Harriet35 Tue 29-Jan-13 01:54:27

What similarities are there to how Nazi Germany treated the disabled prior to the holocaust? Sorry but I just don't see it. Benefits are being cut a bit, but that's all. Being given a little less money and being a little bit more stringent about who gets it does not equal persecution IMO.

Kungfutea Tue 29-Jan-13 04:25:08

Spectacularly missing the point about increments???

This is quite astonishing. The 'increments' in nazi Germany weren't so incremental compared to what we are talking about in the uk, they were huge jumps. The Nuremberg laws were passed already back in 1933. That was an increment in nazi Germany. Not cutting benefits in a democratic society ffs. You don't like it, you have the right to protest, you have mps, you can vote to change govt. Appalling that anyone thinks this is remotely like nazi Germany, you have no idea.

Kungfutea Tue 29-Jan-13 04:28:17

Oops, sorry, meant 1935

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 05:54:52

you have the right to protest, you have mps, you can vote to change govt.

So did Germans. They used those rights, very energetically. The NSDAP was never given a full mandate by the electorate - the vote was hung; Hitler got in on a coalition. From there he used bribery, blackmail and extreme force to take full control, outlaw other parties and banish elections.

Now I am not saying Mr Cameron is a reincarnation of Mr Hitler. What I am saying is that a sense of "it couldn't happen here", coupled with economic anxiety and a willingness to scapegoat some sectors of society, led to the German people overlooking early abuses in a very similar manner to what's happening now.

Here's that link to Useless Eaters again.
Here is the full text (pdf).

Here's one of many links propaganda (advertisements) then and now.

The black triangle used to designate sick & disabled people in the concentration camps was for arbeitsscheu - workshy. Ring any bells?

Again, I am not likening Cameron to Hitler. I have no evidence for that.
I am saying we're already ignoring victimisation & scapegoating of a very similar nature to what happened then. And, like pre-war Germans, we're telling ourselves it can't be that bad. Are we going to sit around, not asking too many questions, until things get worse? Sick & disabled people are already dying in ways they did not die five or ten years ago.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 06:06:05

The thing is, many disabled people could work, and should be encouraged to . Bleating that "this is how the holocaust started" is so ridiculous. Everyone should contribute, not be feather bedded with lavish benefits,when they are capable of working - even if they've not previously worked for many years. Time to stop soft soaping people.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 06:12:38

Andrew, you must be very proud of your Mum's determination, and the fact she influenced Beveridge's welfare system!

Lord Freud sickeningly said Beveridge would be proud of his reforms - before admitting he's never read the Beveridge Report hmm

Double, that story about the soldiers in coffins is shocking.

During my school years, in the 1960s - 1970s, handicapped children were designated ineducable even if their handicaps were only physical. There were tucked away in institutions (where they were, for the most part, sedated) which is mainly why so many of my generation think "you didn't use to see all these disabled around." As others have remarked, a high proportion became institutionalised and are still in care facilities, although they tend to die young. The Warnock Report of 1978 finally got things changed.

Care in the community has been a successful experiment, in terms of both saving money and creating a more realistically balanced society. Carers like PeneloPe are very much to be credited for this, alongside a faulty but ground-breaking social service. As support is systematically eroded, carers won't be able to cope. The logical outcome would be that more disabled children & adults are committed to institutions - this is a much bigger financial burden on society, so funding would need to be cut ... and that leads to ... ?? sad

I'm not pretending to know exactly what it leads to. Some of us are saying there are worrying parallels with what happened in pre-war Germany. And we do know what that led to.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 06:13:24

Interesting, plodder, what are you recommendations for getting the sick and disabled into paid employment?

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 06:30:38

they should be assessed and then made to work or their benefits cut. for example you see many down syndrome people working today, they never useed to , it's to be encouraged and applauded.

Clearly profoundly sick or severly mentally disabled people can't do most jobs, but even here, something menial could probably be found which might give them some self respect and the respect of their community. disabled people should be protected from abuse and exploitation but the assumption should be that they can work unless proved otherwise, and i would set the standard fairly high.

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 07:03:56

Nobody, nobody is saying the two things are equal at present.

Nobody is saying this is equal to the Holocaust.

What we are saying is how something like that happens.

It starts like this.

Slow. Gradual. Unnoticed. Excused. 'Minor'. Something that nobody could compare to something as mindblowingly revolting as the Holocaust. Something that people get angry with you about if you try to reference it in your explanation, instead of seeing what you are saying and standing with you...

When people refuse to see, accept or stop something - what is it exactly that could never happen?

People who are getting cross because they think we are saying that what is happening here and now is exactly like or equal to the gassing of millions of people are not seeing what we are saying.

Go back to before the Holocaust. Go back to the 10 years, 15 years, 20 years leading up to it.

Then look around you NOW. See the propaganda. ‘strivers not skivers’, ‘training not claiming’ - catchy, eh? See the attitudes. See the speeches. See the drip drip drip against certain groups. See them demonised. See them blamed for everything that's going wrong. See people turning on each other in hard times, with a government and a media that seems to be feeding rather than stopping that.

THAT is what is happening here.

All that is being said is that this has happened before and for people to think about all the places such things have the potential to take us.

if people cannot see it then how will they stop it?
WHEN will they stop it?
People are already dying - What has to happen for you to say no, we're not doing this? What is the cut off point? What's the point at which you will say no more?

What have you protested today? Yesterday? The day before that? How have you protested someone killing themselves because they're terrified of being destitute? Protested people being called lying thieving bastards because they're disabled? Protested ATOS kicking people off benefits who seriously CANNOT work? Protested day centres being closed left, right and centre? Protested cuts to services that are essential for disabled people? Protested the lack of a 'bedroom tax' consideration for disabled people - which means that someone who needs an extra room due to their disability (eg equipment, because they can't get up the stairs, someone to stay over at times but not constant overnight care - will lose money)? Protested reassessment of what it means to be disabled in order to kick people off - despite them being seriously disabled in any true sense of the word - sneakily trying to change the wording on assessment so that criteria for mobility element is not that you can do something " reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner" -so you could crawl on your hands and knees, once, taking you an hour and theoretically they could consider that ok? Protested the newspapers talking about all these massive amounts of dla fraud despite the reality being it's miniscule?

Do you know who Larry Newman was? Who Brian Mcardle was? To pick two examples out of many.

What do you personally, you right there, know about what's happening to us?

What are you doing to help us stop it?

Bad things happen when good people do nothing. When people sit back and say no, that could never happen here. This country's just too good and nice for that. When people say how dare you compare this too... or this is minor... or that isn't even really happening...

Shitty things are happening right now.

What are you going to do today about it?

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 07:08:26

What a load of hot air.

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 07:12:29

Ah. doing nothing then.

Yeah.

That's what I thought.

Nice and easy for you. Job done. No need for you to think or care. Hefty dose of I'm Alright Jack.

In the meantime, I have 2 children with disabilities that mean they will never have any form of independent life and they face a shitty future. a really shitty future.

Great world we live in.

Thanks for doing fuck all.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 07:19:11

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HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 07:27:32

You may be sure from out there. I am not sure from in here. I am seeing the support that is available already being cut. I am being told that there is no money to meet needs they have (SALT, for example) and therefore they do not have that need. Despite the fact they are teenagers who communicate at a toddler level. I am seeing people refusing to acknowledge a need in writing because if they do, it commits them to meeting it.

Re concentration camps - Is that what you think that I have said is going to happen? Is that all you took from what I said?

Morloth Tue 29-Jan-13 07:30:08

So do people think there is actually a plan here, or is this just something we as humans can't help repeating in cycles?

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 07:35:18

In my more paranoid moments I do think there is a plan, yes. grin

I think that it is the old 'divide and conquer' plan.

That it's the 'get people fighting among themselves so that they don't look over here to where the real problem is' plan

Blame disabled people. Blame immigrants. Blame the poorest and most vulnerable. Blame each other.

But don't blame the obscenely rich or the multinationals or the bankers or the politicians who are milking the system for all they can.

Don't all turn as one and look in their direction.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 07:38:39

Honestly this thread is so melodramatic. It's absolutely necessary to cut benefits, yes, even to disabled, the old, children. The UK's can't support the current benefit levels. It doesn't mean that it's the thin end of the wedge of torturing them all to death. The safety net will exist, there'll just be less of it. the system will just be a little harder to scam and not give out so quickly.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 07:40:56

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HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 07:47:53

When it's you that it's happening to, perhaps it feels dramatic. did you consider that?

Certainly it's not fun being told all the ways in which you and your children are a burden and are you sure you're not scamming the system and do you really need quite so much help and support.

I work. I have disabilities and my own business. I have some aids and adaptations. adapted vehicle, for example. I don't need a high level of support. but my children do. And always will. And I am getting the message loud and clear. We all are. Those of us who are actually living it, that is.

Bluestocking Tue 29-Jan-13 07:49:53

I know this isn't the main thrust of the thread, but I can't let this pass. "I bet if you had told the average German in 1933 that by the time 12 years had passed 6 million Jews would have been murdered they would have been horrified." No they wouldn't - European society was incredibly anti-Semitic at that point. Lots of perfectly respectable British people thought that taking the Jews out of the equation was entirely rational.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 07:52:02

Name me a cut pensioners are on the receiving end of?

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 07:56:25

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EllieArroway Tue 29-Jan-13 08:00:09

Never reported anyone before, but I've reported you, Dawndonna.

That anyone, anyone at all, is deluded enough to believe that there's some "plan" afoot by the government and that we're headed for another holocaust astounds me.

Being disabled or caring for disabled shouldnt' give you a free pass out of answering questions about your needs, and just expect to be bunged cash, no questions asked This is true - like it or lump it.

" something menial could probably be found which might give them some self respect and the respect of their community."

So, theplodder you'd have them doing the shitty jobs that no-one else wants to do. Nice.

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 08:10:27

That is NOT what I am saying.

The point is that they are NOT doing it right. They ARE targeting people who DO need the help.

If they were accurately assessing people and identifying those who did not need help, and supporting them into work - fair enough.

That is NOT what they are doing. They are causing harm and distress to people who do need help.

and 'no questions asked'?

Clearly you have never filled in a DLA form.

It is a MASSIVE document. And you have to provide evidence. And they contact your doctor. And they contact everyone else involved in your care. And you have to go into great detail up to and including who helps you wipe your arse.

No questions asked. Ha.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 08:11:01

Brilliant posts, Hecate.

I agree with you, Dawn.
Plodder, GPs are giving out food bank vouchers to patients because they're coming in with starvation-related diseases. They can't afford to feed their children and themselves, so they're going without and getting sick. This is what "less of a safety net" means. People are dying of illnesses which Atos said would not stop them working, suiciding from lengthy appeals or killing themselves after falling through the benefit gap. This is what "assessed and then made to work" means. Do not be sure Hecate's children will be supported by the state, that provision is already under threat.

It is people like you that lead to what happened before, Plodder. Bad things happen when good people do nothing.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 08:12:27

Some people have obviously swallowed the skiver rhetoric wholesale, then.

There are numerous reasons why work is not viable for people with disabilities. Severity of disability, inconsistency of disability. Employers aren't going to give people a week off once a month as they're bed bound, for example.

Biggest hurdle to people with disabilities in the workplace is employers. Prior to my being a carer I worked. In one role they cut my pay as I'm hearing impaired. Equality laws allowed that to happen due to company size.

Other reasons people don't work are tied up in dignity issues. If a specialist consultant with their expertise in a particular condition says someone isn't fit for work that should be sufficient.

Did anyone watch Panorama last night?

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 08:14:01

Whoeverheardofawormskinrug

What job would you expect a mentally disabled person to do ? It would have to be something fairly straightforward. But nevertheless, work they should, if capable, at something.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 08:14:12

Lots of perfectly respectable ... people thought that taking the Jews out of the equation was entirely rational.

But they didn't want them killed, did they, Bluestocking? They just wanted them to own less, to have less, to be ... out of the way, less of a 'drain'.

Still not seeing any similarities?

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 08:16:29

Plodder, it will be interesting. People with poorly-controlled mental illnesses and other highly problematic conditions will be sent on Workfare placements (the law allows this indefinitely.) It will probably lead to some quite fascinating situations with co-workers and customers.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 08:18:14

Report away, Ellie, don't give a damn. Try living my life for a week, or Hecate's life before you even think about it.

Plodder, nobody is calling you a genocide enabler, but you are not protesting, speaks for itself.
The university of East Anglia did a study recently, (can't find it at the moment) which clearly demonstrated that the disabled and their carers are bearing the brunt of the cuts.
As Hec said, filling out a DLA form is a marathon task, it can take up to three weeks to fill one in.
As others have said, this is happening now. You're in Australia, but I suggest you get onto the BBC website and watch last nights panorama, a programme which again, clearly demonstrated that the government and their employees think that those disabled people on benefits are lying, cheating bastards. Their term, not mine. So, in what way is this not happening now?

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 08:19:20

Panorama last night.
Woman unable to cross the road unaided fit for work. So she's unable to keep herself safe.

Unbelievable. Unless if you're like us and living it.

Ellie so nice you're offended. It's a lot worse than just 'offence' being in the sharp end of this govt's propoganda.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 08:24:53

Do some of you realise a blind person could be sent - blind - on a workfare placement? This is because it's now legal to assess them as capable of work if they could do some work with aids, like a guide dog and an adapted screen reader.

Same with a person who could use a wheelchair, if they had one.

Regardless of whether they actually have any aids, or can get them.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 08:27:48

Oh, and a lot of ~Work programme offices are up stairs, with no lift!

Which would be grin if not for the fact that people are having their benefits stopped - this automatically stops their housing benefit as well - for not turning up to their meetings. Which they can't physically get to.

Still think they're not being targeted?

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 08:32:49

It's actually comical in a way. Well it would be, if it wasn't deadly serious.

People are relating things that have and are actually happening yet there are people reporting as they're 'offended'.

Offended that their shiny little bubble might be burst.

Let's hope neither them or a family member doesn't become ill. You have to work if you have terminal cancer now, you know?

theplodder

"What job would you expect a mentally disabled person to do ?"

I would expect a mentally disabled person to be supported by a society that gives a shit about them. I would not expect them to be given the low-paid crap jobs that nobody else wants to do.

For some people with disabilities, just being able to make a meal for themselves, shower themselves, wipe their own arses are achievements. But no, not good enough - they've got to go and clean bogs, skivvy around and be treated like dirt.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 08:37:07

Recently went to appeal for dh's mobility element. The appeal was held in a building on a busy main road with no onsite parking! We had to get ds to take a morning off work, drop us outside and then pick us up. Madness!
(We won)!

Bluestocking Tue 29-Jan-13 08:41:53

Maybe I'm not expressing myself very well this morning. I agree with the suggestion that we are being encouraged to think of the old, the poor (but only the "undeserving" poor), the disabled and recent immigrants as an unacceptable drain on "the rest of us". I just don't agree that most 1930s Germans would have been horrified by the idea of millions of Jews being killed, because extreme anti-Semitism was the prevailing orthodoxy.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 08:52:28

Why should i protest about a policy i believe is correct?

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 08:56:53

Persecution is correct is it?

Wow, just wow.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 08:59:10

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HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 09:01:53

For crying out loud.

The problem is that people are being assessed as fit when they are not.

This has been proven. It has been demonstrated over and over and over again. Actual people. Specific examples of it.

What part of that is difficult to grasp?

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 09:03:42

And do you understand the system for applying for disability benefits?

The gigantic forms? The assessments? The supporting evidence from your doctor, consultant, etc?

Do you think that people phone up and say hey, I'm disabled, give me some money?

they already have to prove it. this is happening despite them already having proven it

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 09:04:51

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PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 09:04:59

The word of a specialist consultant isn't enough? Because that's what used to happen.

Not a private company who had nurses with no specialist knowledge assessing 'clients'. These nurses have targets too, so it's not about accurately assessing the level of disability.

Hence the £150 million needlessly wasted on Tribunals which could have been prevented had the level of disability been correctly assessed. Most of which were won once medical evidence was assessed correctly in court.

Would those who think this is acceptable expect to work if they were terminally ill?

BreconBeBuggered Tue 29-Jan-13 09:07:08

Anyone who thinks sick and disabled people are terrified about benefits not rising or being cut 'a little bit' simply hasn't been paying attention. In many sases they are being withdrawn altogether, often from people who even the widely-loathed Atos say are not going to be fit for work when their time-limited benefit ends. People who have no functional mobility are facing having their support to remain mobile removed altogether. Essential care services are being cut dramatically. All from people who have been assessed, time and time again, as being in need of support. Plenty of people out there think this is fine because it's happening to strangers who are not like them, who must have done something to deserve such treatment.

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 09:08:04

Lets not forget either that these nurses don't even get the final say....or any doctor but a medically unqualified "assessor". Good isn't it?

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 09:17:28

In your paranoid fantasies, do you believe that the government is preparing euthanasia centres and mobile gas chambers for the disabled? That'swhat the Nazi program did. Maybe you should be directing your ire towards those who flagrantly abuse the benefits system, reducing the levels of funding and resources available to the genuinely disabled.

People will get used to less generous benefits, but they are not being removed altogether. I rather suspect those resorting to foul language abuse are those for whom lavish benefits have been supporting a life of leisure.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 09:18:57

DP recieves DLA and in all honesty we've never found the process of applying difficult. He hasn't been asked to see an assessor. We also receive a concession on our Council Tax. Again, this was very straighforward. I wonder if things are going to get more difficult?

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 09:25:17

I have worked for the last 30years love....when were you born? My guess is my taxes paid for you to go to school, see a GP and contributed to the Child Benefit your Mum got. Life on benefits....not until the past year and trust me it's bloody hard, certainly not the lavish lifestyle the Daily Mail would have you believe.

Right I am out of here....that's me done with this thread. May those of you welcoming the changes fall flat on your arses some day....may life kick you right between the eyes long enough to realise what is being lost with these changes.

Bye bye

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 09:25:21

theplodder, are you actually Ian Duncan smith ?

BreconBeBuggered Tue 29-Jan-13 09:25:31

but they are not being removed altogether

In many cases, this is exactly what is happening. And 'a life of leisure', really? Looking after severely disabled children 24/7, for the rest of your life? It's hardly the big prize in life's lottery, is it?

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 09:25:57

Oh for heaven's sake.

Yes.

They are being removed.

There are people who it has been proven have had benefits removed from them that never should have been.

Some of them have died because of it.

The government has admitted the truth of that. Have admitted that yes, these cases have happened. Yet you choose to believe that isn't actually happening?

And fyi - I run my own business. My husband runs his own business. We are not living a lavish lifestyle on benefits (like that ever happens anyway). I am not personally afraid of benefit cuts. I am afraid of the changes in attitude and the way disabled people are being screwed.

you are dismissing everything we are all saying about our personal experiences and about the facts as independently verified, because you want to believe that nobody who really needs help would ever be targeted and therefore those who are being targeted don't really need help.

That's very safe and cosy for you.

It's only sad that it's not the reality.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 09:28:25

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HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 09:31:46

ok. if you say so.

BreconBeBuggered Tue 29-Jan-13 09:32:47

Good God. Hordes of immigrant disableds, coming over here, stealing our women and our cattle.

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 09:32:48

hecate I think your words are sadly wasted on plodder. He/she is simply reading a script from the DM. I predicted the word scrounger coming out and then she knows a family up the road who get x,y,z. I could have said it before she even did. Who cares that people are dying as long as I'm alright huh?

Kendodd Tue 29-Jan-13 09:35:25

I absolutely agree that disabled people can and should work and I think it is much much worse if the rest of society rights them off and throws them onto the scrap heap as useless and only fit to receive benefits. Should we right Stephen Hawkins off and says he's not fit to work? and yet I'm sure he would fail every fitness test going, and yes, I know this is an extreme example.

imo disabled people are doing themselves a great disservice fighting to keep non working benefits, they should be fighting for proper support in the workplace and an end to discrimination about their abilities. This opinion isn't even about the money.

A friend of mine has an adult son (about 20) with learning disabilities. He likes to lie in every day until about 1pm. If he wasn't disabled she would be on his case every morning, nagging him to get up and get a job. He's allowed to lie in because care has to be 'person centred' and all about their needs and wants, and he wants to lie in. As I said, imo, this is not doing him any favours.

"they've got to go and clean bogs, skivvy around and be treated like dirt"

Well somebody has to do these jobs and you seem to have a terrible attitude towards the people who do do them, and I am not in any way suggesting they should be reserved for the disabled over able bodied.

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 09:35:26

True, sparkly.

At least they're honest though.

Saying straight out what the others like them are thinking.

It's always good to know the core of someone.

Bluestocking Tue 29-Jan-13 09:36:50

"I know former neighbours who arrived in Britain specifically to take advantage of disabled benefits."
I simply do not believe this. It's not that easy to get disabled benefits, as everyone on this thread who's actually involved in the process has said. What is the payoff for you in thinking this way, plodder?

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 09:37:17

Thousands, really? Who told you that? My biggest fear isn't even this government , it's the fact that people are descending into panic, believing all the DM propaganda , and an up and coming party such as UKIP could get at least into a coalition. Things could get even more scary then.

AudrinaAdare Tue 29-Jan-13 09:38:42

Christ almighty I thought I had clicked on the Daily Mail-o-matic by mistake reading that.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 09:39:55

Sad I missed thi: especially the bit about euthanasing someone with alzheimers. I ahd the wonderful priveldge of caring for someone with alzheimers until their death, each morning she ahd 5 lucid moments and I considered myself incredibly blessed to be there for those when I was on that shift. She'd achieved wonderful things in her earlier life, and I feel I learned a lot about compassion by being around her, and indeed 5 minutes a day of the happiness I think she ahd is more than many have.

Also, arguments for such things assumes humans to be an island: people have families and friends whoa re affected and treasure people's existence. Alzheimers is not always distressing for the sufferer- sometimes but not always.

No the word of a consultant is no longer enough, in fact such opinions are actively rejected in favour of assessments on PCs by people who have no real understanding of the condition. yes people are scared: my children have ASD, I am scared, ds1 gets HR DLA now but hits 16 in 3 yeras and they removed the criteria for constant supervision due to aggression so goodness only knows what I will do, be beat up a lot I expect. yes people are dying, in their thousands now according to data.

My husband has a busines, an internet store retailing high end lighting equipment for the stage industry. I get carer's, i don;t feel guilty about that- I have 3 disabled children and worked until diagnosis, in a decent career within the charitable sector. I hope to return this year, although ds3's asd is severe enough he ahs DLA granted until he is 16 so I am guaranteed CA until then- both my boys attend SN Schools.

As for the comment about teh start that 'All mothers who have a child with a disability are currently offered terminations,' are people delusional? Most disabled children's diagnosies are NOT known about antenatally. Many disabilities arise from the delivery itself, later injury or are simply undetectable. We ahd lots of tests for ds3 (excluding invasive ones) as he was high risk for Doen's syndrome, all negative, he ahs Autism.

I don;t yet beleive we are ehading for another holocaust: I do keep passports in date for my childre, husband and and I. I've had enough disability ahtred quite literally at my door banging and screaming to know that my boys are not truly safe from hatred and aggression.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 09:41:07

The Nazis did not prepare killing centres as you suggest, Plodder. They had a secret 'euthanasia' strategy which was not enacted until 1939. Prior to that they were sterilising "defective" people and gradually introducing the idea that disabled children were better off dead while quietly killing children in hospitals.

Having thrown out various gory ideas such as shooting "defectives" one by one (abandoned due to psychological stress on SA operatives), tying people together then blowing them up (same problem) and organising train crashes (too difficult), they experimented with the first gassing facility at Hartheim Castle in 1939.

Being remarkably well organised, they had done projections and came in very close to their original target of 70,000 'mercy killings' between 1939 and 1941. A further 180,000 sick & disabled "workshy" were gassed in the concentration camps.

I'm not suggesting the Conservatives have a secret elimination strategy like the Nazis. Of course I'm not. But they must have some objective; this remains unknown. The fact that policy decisions are made in secret, without consultation, does tend to suggest their strategic objective is something they know would be unacceptable in public. I wonder what it is?

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 09:42:57

Oh and wrt to disabled people working- nyes. DH is classed as disabled but doesn;t claim anything and works; ds1 is looking into starting his own business as soon as he can and luckily for him has a talent that enables that.

DS3 expects to work, he also has a 2 minute attention span safety awareness of a 3 year old and severelyd elayed comprehension, speech and literacy. Nobody is going to employ him, he gets lost on the 3 metre journey from the living room to bedroom for goodness sake. Ask him to push a trolley and he'll be standing in a corner looking at the wall laughing instead.

DD(20) has MS, studying at Uni, wants a job, anybody want to employ her?

<do not engage, do not engage, do not engage>

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 09:44:52

I agree, Ken. If someone is actually capable of working, they should be supported to do so.

If they are capable of working.

When they are not capable of working but are targeted, that's a problem.

To use one of my children as an example. My youngest. 12. No sense of danger. Limited communication. Mainly echolalic. Prone to thumping. currently has full time 1:1 school support and 2:1 offsite. Requires constant adult motivation and direction to do so much as write out one sentence. Which can take 20 minutes. Can't be left alone. Has to have everything explained to him in very simple, short sentences with visual backup. Gives limited indication that he understands what's going on around him.

Now, in theory, he could work. He could sweep streets, for example. He is physically capable of that.

What he would need in order to do that would be one person minimally but preferably 2 people to support him, since it's an open space. He would need to be kept safe, since he would not be aware of traffic or how to not get run over. He would need them to constantly direct him to sweep, to prompt him to clear. They would need to get him back on track and manage him when he threw the brush down and refused to pick it back up. They would need to run after him if he took off.

Who would pay them to do that job in order that he could work in a minimum wage job in order to not get benefits?

Physically he could sweep a road but with what he needs in order for that to happen - who the hell would employ him?

yet all he would be assessed on would be his physical capability to sweep. and support would be removed from him for failure to do so.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 09:46:30

'suggest their strategic objective is something they know would be unacceptable in public. I wonder what it is?
'

An end to the benefits syetm including in work benefits, workhouses and a return to mass institutions for the disabled (almost ironic as I nursed when the Tories were doing away with such palces)- but the key being mass to keep costs (and quality- we are talking battery farm not free range) down. And wend to the minimum wage so that people are forced to take jobs that do not pay rent or proper food just to survive at all. Probably not a total end to the NHS as it ahs long ahd a function of keeping the workforce fit and also they ahve too many ahnds in the pies of private / NHS care.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 09:47:19

I am going to get pissed off if people talk about people with disabilities in a patronising way. Lots of people with disabilities are capable of working and are desperate to support themselves. They face difficulties entering the workplace because of prejudice. This is improving but too slowly for my liking.

It is ridiculous to deny that the benefits system isn't being exploited by some people. They are a minority thankfully but I think they should be exposed because every pound they take from the state is money taken from a deserving person. Having said that the way that people who cannot work are being humilated and then being denied money they are entitled to is disgraceful.
Typical governement fuck up. They invent a system so complex that it can be expolited then use a hammer to crack a nut by attacking the deserving applicants hmm

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 09:47:46

disabled people ... they should be fighting for proper support in the workplace

Ken, do you honestly think disability groups don't fight for this, and haven't been for decades? Has this support materialised? Not outside the public sector, no.

In case you haven't noticed, there's a terrible unemployment problem at present; how many employers can you think of who'd rather put in special facilities and accommodate flexible working than take their pick from 9 fit & healthy people for every vacancy?

What would you like sick & disabled people to live on while they campaign for a Utopian about-face in the jobs market?

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 09:49:46

Also- if the key, as IDS says, is to improve the lot for the disabled and get people to amximise their abilities and life chances how come I am struggling to find work, given I have almost completed my MA in Autism and have a long experience of teh sector? The people actually charged with the jobs have no interest in qualified individuals. I did get an interview recently for a grant making trust- who then ahd to withdraw as their funding was withdrawn.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 09:50:46

Alsp apols for spelling- glasses off and emotionally invested = typos ahoy

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 09:52:15

The idea that all disabled people can fight is laughable and shows a very poor understanding of the complexities of the disorders we are tlaking about and the struggles they face.

'Here ds3, fight for your rights- oh yes you can;t speak much in a way peopel can easily understand and can;t really write but go ahead and argue'

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 09:56:53

Totally agree Peachy. Having a disability is exhausting. We spend all our time striving to keep life as 'normal' as possible. We are lucky that DP has an amazing job but that, together with all the difficulties we face, leaves so little time and energy that even an intelligent, articulate person like him has no time left in the day to 'fight' for his rights.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 09:59:08

Also there are get outs. I have been directly discriminated against for being deaf on the workplace. One job cut my pay but they were within their rights to do so as a 'small business' under the minimum size to have to comply with equality legislation, another job disappeared altogether when they found out about my disability, although they dressed it up as the vacancy had relocated.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 10:11:47

YY, PPP, happens all the time sad

Just, I must be patronising myself hmm I'm not capable of sorting out my benefits for myself, the fear sends me into a flat spin. It's annoying (to put it mildly) as I used to zizz around in little designer suits, doing million pound deals without blinking. So why can't I follow procedure, fill out my forms and 'fight' for the help I need? Because I have a fucking disability. I'm less able, see, the clue's in the word.

Gah.

"Well somebody has to do these jobs and you seem to have a terrible attitude towards the people who do do them, and I am not in any way suggesting they should be reserved for the disabled over able bodied."

My comment was in direct response to a comment about how:

"They (sic, mentally disabled people) can be given menial tasks"

And had you chosen to read it in the context of the whole sentence, you would have seen my comment that it is bloody hard enough being the mentally disabled person that theplodder was referring to and actually trying to do the every day self-care tasks without then having to go and clean bogs for a pittance.

What I did NOT do, was refer to people who do work as cleaners etc in any kind of derogatory term. Except perhaps to infer that these tasks are, indeed, menial. And, having worked in the past as a cleaner, kennel assistant, hotel chambermaid - they ARE menial, dirty and poorly paid.

As an able bodied adult, I was able to choose to leave these jobs for better paid ones - yet had I been disabled, the general feeling of many is that I should be fucking grateful for being given the opportunity to be paid a shitty wage because I was "contributing" rather that being a burden.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 10:17:32

Don't have a go at me garlicblocks hmm If you read my posts properly you'll see I'm not patronising you. I don't like a lot of the language on here and I won't be bullied into talking about ALL disabled people as being helpless because of you.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 10:18:39

How is someone unable to dress themselves or wipe their bottoms properly going to be an effective cleaner anyway?

"How is someone unable to dress themselves or wipe their bottoms properly going to be an effective cleaner anyway?"

I'm sure theplodder has an ingenious menial task in mind for them to do, just so that they're contributing to society.

I am absolutely appauled PPP by how you were treated, it's disgusting - and I think that it needs to be addressed. The trouble is, how can you prove discrimination? This is a worry of mine about DS1, who, although Autistic - is very capable and bright and will absolutely thrive and be able to work (in computers if he has his way!). But who would employ him over an identical candidate who is neurotypical? The reality is frightening.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 10:26:35

garlic
I should also add that in your OP you describe people with disabilities as 'unproductive.' I seriously take issue with this. That is not the way that a lot of people with disabilities view themselves hmm

BreconBeBuggered Tue 29-Jan-13 10:30:29

I think that's why there were inverted commas around 'unproductive'. Unless I have massively misunderstood the OP.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 10:31:22

just< I'm having trouble understanding your points? Am tire though.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 10:32:12

Inverted commas or not, I still didn't like the inference.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 10:35:26

I'm sorry i just don't believe that "people are dying in their thousands" due to benefit cuts. Many are doing an honest day's work for the first time in years and good for them. The wails of people on this subject are way too hysterical.

manicbmc Tue 29-Jan-13 10:38:47

It would help the disabled if the Tories hadn't buggered about with Remploy.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 10:47:22

Remploy, a wasteful organisation that helps few compared to it's vast costs and bloated management structure that allows directors to swan around in sports cars and collect huge salaries. Good riddance.

LaVolcan Tue 29-Jan-13 10:50:47

Well, plodder, I hope you never become unemployed and find you can't get work, or become disabled and can't get work or get the support you need.

In fact I hope you have made financial provision for just such an eventuality because by the way you are talking you would see no need for society to support you if either were to happen.

threesocksmorgan Tue 29-Jan-13 10:52:28

omg please tell me we have a troll
if not god help us

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 10:52:52

garlic

I thought my posts were pretty clear. Let me summarise:

(a) The benefits system isn't fit for purpose because it humiliates and discriminates against some deserving applicants;
(b) The system has been expolited in the past by a minority of people;
(c) A lot of people with disabilities are desperate to work;
(d) It is hard for people withj disabilities to get work because of prejudice in the workplace;
(e) I personally don't like some of the language used on here, in particular the use of the word unproductive, whether with or without inverted commas.

If you read my posts you will see all of the above contained therein. Hth.

On a personal note, I am not working a in bed with flu and cursing myself for being sucked in to this thread hmm

Maybe you should also take some time to check out the concept that is Godwin's Law.

smile

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 10:54:51

Oh, and please, just because I have 'argued' with you, assume that I agree with the sentiments of theplodder I don't.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 10:54:55

Where were your left wing comments when Labour closed Remploy 29 factories in 2008? They made over 2000 unemployed. This whole mess is all down to Labour and their quadrupling of the public sector with their inflated salaries, early retirement and gross unfunded pensions. Anyway, it's an ill wind that blows nobody some good - thankfully the era of Victorian segregation of employment for disabled and able bodied is being brought to an end with the winding down of Remploy.

threesocksmorgan Tue 29-Jan-13 10:58:12

I worked for Remploy when I was a teen.
I am able bodied, so were a lot of the people who worked there.
it was very inclusive,

flatpackhamster Tue 29-Jan-13 10:59:37

Maybe we should start by euthanising people who think it's acceptable to hijack Holocaust Memorial Day and attach it to their pet hobby horse.

Disgusting thread.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 11:01:31

Theplodder to be frank what you beleive means nothing: if people are being struck off benefits or placed on workfare they simply cannot do then they can become homeless, suffer stress that exaccerbates mental health issues (case last week of someone being sectioned after being notified of this, MH condition deteriorated dramatically from stress)- IDS himself has acknowledged this as inevitable in the change, he descrines it as collaterel damage.

here here read Black Triangle, The Spartacus report (a good decent bit of research that one), Diary of A Benefit Scrounger.... and no doubt yuou will dismiss each one, but after a point that becomes a self evident act of delusion and not active use of available data.

As an employer who beelives in equality, should my husband cut the chances of the business surviving by employm#ing someone for whome we need to make active physical adjustments for, or give a lot of time off for appointments or indeed carer resposibility for? orally absolutely: but practically? Why can;t we instead hope our taxes will allow care for those who need it, and survival of the business and employment for whoever is best for the job- and in this climate there are so very many applying for every job and best for has to eman attendance doesn;t it? I know I am averaging 3 visits a week to hospital / other sppts with the boys ATM : what employer could sustain that?

Or indeed DS1- were he to be forced into workfare- they removed the clause that provided for his aggression, if he's still like that in 3 years would you be OK working alongside someone likely to attack you under stress?
Anotehr thing I am happy to pay taxes to reduce the chances of happening. We work towards self employment of course but who knows what life brings.

Remploy- seen the employment stats for the people being made redundant? I have, poor souls have no chance.There is going to be a better midway than full closure such as using the skills to manage people's access into work where possible but this is not ahppening: ATOS etc don;t want qualified people in the field of disability, they want target hitters.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 11:02:16

FlatPack and why i did not post yesterday.

LaVolcan Tue 29-Jan-13 11:04:59

Well, what do you know - the financial mess we are in is due to to Remploy/Labour/Uncle Tom Cobbley and All.

I thought it was due to Lehman Brothers and others of the same persuasion. Oh and pointless wars, and large corporations dodging tax - (but that's different of course, because they need an incentive so that is not cheating, oh no). [cynical emoticon]

What I do know, is that it's not been caused by people with disabilities and I fail to see why they should bear the burden of the cuts.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 11:08:49

Remploy was ONE company that specialised in helping disabled and non disabled people, it was not a policy of segregation.

There HAS to be specialist support at some level, having a variety of options frnakly emans that even if (and it was not) one level above a day centre then yes there wqould be a need for that.

Labour was absoluely teh root cause of all that was ill in the public sector and the absolute joke of a VAT Ofice with far too many people doing nothing all day that I worked in under the alst tory Government was a figment of my imagination. Right?

Godwin's Law is ridiculous when the initial concept fo any discussion suggests the Nazis: I saw a thread today about teh rise of the Nazis on anothert forum, a historical thread, dismissed using the same law, utter tosh.

Some people with disability can work; some prople can;t, or need adjustments to make work possible. We need a system to work that one out, but this system is not working and in a large part becuase the people brought in are motivated entirely by the £ and not the person. Indeed when combined with otehr cuts it is a joke- I have a friend with severe CP (can only use a hand) who has his own business but a#some of that id#s advocacy and mentoring for people with similar disabilities, and if people have less access to funds to hire him.....

Quite.

Also the same assessment em,asures are being sued for DLA / PIP shortly whcih are NOT unemployment benefits.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 11:10:00

LaVolcan- yes, that.

Also- iof teh system is so bloody good why do so many cases succeed at appeal? Do we not think people suffer during teh appeal process?

Bonkers.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 11:14:24

I agree with almost you've said Peachy but on the side issue of Godwin, it's important to note that Godwin invented it as a way of people thinking about the Holocaust when casually drawing comparisons with the Nazis in internet arguments. To be honest I think that mentioning it here, is right on the money.

LaVolcan Tue 29-Jan-13 11:16:19

Maybe we should start by euthanising people who think it's acceptable to hijack Holocaust Memorial Day and attach it to their pet hobby horse.

flatpackhamster. I am not sure who you are getting at here but IMO the best way to remember the Holocaust is to do our damndest to make sure it never happens again. Some of us are afraid that it could. Perhaps we are mistaken? I hope so, but I don't think we can afford to be complacent.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 11:18:38

I'm not saying for one second that anything remotely resembling the Holocaust is happening now.

I do believe there are striking parallels with the political climate in the early 1930s in Germany, and unless we do learn the lessons from the past then it could very well happen again. Easily.

Look at the levels of anti disability propaganda already out there.

Closing your eyes/ears/ mind to the possibility of it happening makes it more likely, not less.

ParsingFancy Tue 29-Jan-13 11:22:26

Um, Justgiveme, actually you need to check out Godwin's Law:

"The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate..." So sayeth Wikipedia.

And while I agree with many of your points, you've missed out the major one that people with disabilities and chronic illnesses may not be able to do enough to viably work, because they are without certain abilities.

A point which you are illustrating very neatly by being in bed because you have flu.

flatpackhamster Tue 29-Jan-13 11:26:07

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 11:33:48

People are dying.
Again I repeat it's not a holocaust situation now but it could happen.

LaVolcan Tue 29-Jan-13 11:37:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 11:40:42

Nobody is hijacking Holocaust day Flatpack back to your Daily Mail,love.

Plodder the figure for fraud with regard to DLA is 0.4%. That's government figures, not mine.
Disabled people have been fighting for years to make workplaces accessible.
Why should my dh clean lavatories? He can't walk, before his illness he was a fit and healthy philosophy lecturer, but according to you, he's scamming the system and fit for the gutter.
As for the bad language. Nobody resorts to it, people choose to use it, frequently intelligent articulate people.

Finally, I would like to know why Mumsnet deleted my comment. I didn't swear, I said I was terrified and disgusted. Yet again, Mumsnet not supporting those of us who fight for the disabled. I've never got involved in that particular discussion, but some bloody tory complained and you've obviously not read the whole thing properly.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 11:40:44

Can't speak for others either but it's not a Tory hate issue.

I also hate Labour for ATOS.
I also hate the Lib Dems for selling out their principles for a bite at power.
I also hate the BNP for, well, being the BNP.
I also hate UKIP for their 'congregate communities'.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 11:41:36

Parsingfancy

I am no fan of our current Government but to say, as you appear to be doing, that they are advocating or implementing a form of genocide or eugenics is absurd and hysterical. Therefore I stand by my posts.

And as for having a really bad cold flu, if I'm fit enough to mumsnet, I'd be ok to do a little work, but frankly I can't be arsed

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 11:41:37

Oh, and Flatpack, I'm a history lecturer.

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 11:47:25

Flatpackhamster Mumsnet won't bin the thread though even though it is disgusting , as they love these kind of "arent the Tories eeeeevilll naazzis" threads.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 11:51:08

Dawndonna. To be fair I think Mumsnet have supported several campaigns in support of people with disabilities, in particular children.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 11:57:47

Yes, Just but they will frequently leave disablist comments, of which there are plenty here, and delete those that are reported, without, seemingly cause.
<sighs>

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 12:01:53

I don't think there's a single disablist comment in this thread. There are plenty however accusing other posters/ political parties as nazis,or wanting to exterminate disabled people which is possibly even more offensive.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 12:03:45

Has anyone said there's anything disablist on this thread?

Bigoted on the other hand...

CFSKate Tue 29-Jan-13 12:06:20
ParsingFancy Tue 29-Jan-13 12:08:14

Justgiveme, I am in no way saying that the government is currently advocating a programme of genocide or eugenics.

I agree strongly with posters saying that the narrative being developed by the current and previous government and media is very similar to the early 30s.

That doesn't mean things must develop in the same way. And the best way to ensure they don't is to point out the red flags now, before we travel any further along that path.

As other people have been saying throughout this thread.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 12:08:50

Dawndonna

You have a point. I complained I didn't like the language used on here some time ago.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 12:09:19

Kate you do realise they'll shut their eyes, cover their ears and shout lalalaaa not listening?

CFSKate Tue 29-Jan-13 12:09:37
Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 12:12:03

Kate Penelopee is right.

ParsingFancy Tue 29-Jan-13 12:12:11

Oh and that's very nice for you that you can choose to lie in bed when you don't have to. I've lost rather too much of my life not having a choice about it.

Some of that time I may even have Mumsnetted. But I'm not under the illusion that's the same as holding down a job or fulfilling work on demand for paying clients.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Tue 29-Jan-13 12:12:41

Parsing

Fair comment but as the partner of somebody with a severe disability, believe me, if I thought for one moment this situation was leading towards genocide or eugenics I would drag my flu-ridden arse out of my bed and take to the streets in protest. The situation as it stands is terrible and unfair and ill-thought out but not the same as the situation in the 30s, in my opinion.

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 12:13:57
Pilgit Tue 29-Jan-13 12:14:34

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this point has been made. Dismissing Hitler and Nazism/the holocaust as extremism that could never happen now rather undermines it, it externalises it and makes such occurences as things that 'cannot' happen now so we don't need to worry. The truth is, many Germans in 1933 thought that. It was all done slowly and drip fed into the rules. The Nazi party controlled the media a lot of their policies were hidden from great swathes of the populace (a lot easier than today with the multitude of media methods). For most people it could be ignored as it wasn't happening on their doorstep or to people that they knew. Homosexuals and the disabled were removed and so not seen. Ordinary people could convince themselves it was 'ok' and 'for the greater good' as for most people life in Nazi Germany was pretty good. Jobs were created, safety (unless you fitted into the targetted groups) was good and there was strength and pride in their nation. The positives, for the ordinary German would have outweighed the negatives that weren't happening to them anyway.

The final solution simply took it to the extreme. The negative press about the poor and disabled looks very similar to the start of the Nazi policies that ended with the final solution. It may not happen here - our democracy and systems are a bit too cumbersome for the sort of political coup required, however it did happen in the baltic in the 1990's and other political systems where there is a much more one party system (e.g. Russia) or where there is growing unemployment and growing support for the right wing (i.e. Greece) could - if the conditions were right - foster such a regime again.

We should fight such ideas wherever we see them to ensure the thin end of the wedge doesn't get any thicker....

LaVolcan Tue 29-Jan-13 12:15:25

The thing is, many disabled people could work, and should be encouraged to . .......Everyone should contribute, not be feather bedded with lavish benefits,when they are capable of working - even if they've not previously worked for many years. Time to stop soft soaping people.

Yet it has been pointed out that the medical professionals dealing with some disabled people - GPs, Consultants, say they are not able to work, but some Government clerk decides otherwise. So are you saying that these people are lying? Is that disablist or not?

Where are these jobs and employers rushing to offer work to the disabled?

manicbmc Tue 29-Jan-13 12:16:20

Where are any jobs, for the disabled or otherwise?

CFSKate Tue 29-Jan-13 13:15:32

Reading page 5 of this thread reminds me of a programme I saw many years ago called The Nazis: A Warning from History. I've just found it on youtube.

RowanMumsnet (MNHQ) Tue 29-Jan-13 13:32:56

Dawndonna

I would like to know why Mumsnet deleted my comment. I didn't swear, I said I was terrified and disgusted. Yet again, Mumsnet not supporting those of us who fight for the disabled. I've never got involved in that particular discussion, but some bloody tory complained and you've obviously not read the whole thing properly.

Hello

We had to delete your post because it was an unambiguous personal attack on the poster concerned ('You are a rude and patronising moron, incapable of intelligent discussion... You both terrify and disgust me.')

That said, we appreciate that there have been some guideline-busting posts on the 'other' side of this debate and we've tried to get those too. Sorry if it's taken a while to get to these and/or respond to reports: it's been a bit of a busy day on the mail front.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 13:35:30

Thanks for your explanatory post at 10:52, Just. I agree with (a) to (d) and (e) is a matter of interpretation.

"it's been a bit of a busy day on the mail front"

I read that as the Daily Mail front grin

I don't understand the view of "it's not as bad as the holocaust" when all that is being pointed out is that the events leading to the holocaust began in similar circumstances. This doesn't mean we believe the holocaust will happen again, what it means is we think even the smaller events/propaganda were wrong and are worried that those things are being repeated or are in danger of it.

Or are we only allowed to be concerned when lives of our disabled our eroded beyond belief. Why not point out and hopefully stop it in the early stages?

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 13:52:41

Hate to point this out flatpackhamster bit the conservatives didn't come to power . This is a coalition government. ....an appalling one but a coalition nonetheless.

Otherwise regarding the thread title I do agree its not in good taste at all.

HecateWhoopass Tue 29-Jan-13 14:02:36

MurderofGoths - never have I ever in the entire history of my mumsnetting ever agreed more with a poster.

PeneloPeePitstop Tue 29-Jan-13 14:08:17

Precisely, MurderOfGoths.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 14:45:05

' To be honest I think that mentioning it here, is right on the money. See, I hugely disagree

Because this is a discussion we've had at home, Dh and I

Not 'are we going to die in a gas furnace', but are we being naive to assume things will not get that far based on a beleif in humanity, wouldn;t that have been how the German people felt pre-holocaust?

They have been interesting discussions, as DH and I have studied it from very different angles.

I think it's WISE to question such things in fact, because if you don't... well yes.

And YYY to murderofgoths

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 14:48:31

LMAO at Dawndonna

My degree is RE and Philosophy; DH is deeply interested in history, especially wartime history. Ok so may MA studies are very different but heck, enjoyed it all especially ethics.

Wanna come over for dinner? wink

KatyTheCleaningLady Tue 29-Jan-13 14:48:37

I've said before in this thread and I guess I'm just repeating myself now and should STFU....

But, it doesn't have to involve cattle cars and gas chambers. It could be clinics like Dignitas. It could be voluntary.

I think people will be coerced to "do the right thing" and make the "brave, dignified, unselfish" choice.

There may also be some element of that choice being made for those who are unable to make it for themselves.

Peachy Tue 29-Jan-13 14:49:59

'they love these kind of "arent the Tories eeeeevilll naazzis" threads.'

Sorry but hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

I have a long history of working well with MN, but they know my feelings on their current work with UNUM: read about them and their history in the USA.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 15:13:16

Rowan
Fair point. I did insult. I'd actually forgotten.

Peachy I'm on my way. Well I would be, but you know how it is, I'd have to organise care for dh and different care for the dcs and they don't like change and disruption to routine.........

One day, a bottle of red will go down well! grin

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 15:14:10

Ahh Unum. The company banned from working in so many US states. I believe they also have a history in Australia, and are banned in parts there too.

Nancy66 Tue 29-Jan-13 15:25:31

Can someone please tell me of the events that lead up the holocaust that they believe mirror what is happening now in the UK?

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 15:28:31

Nancy. There are plenty of history books available. However, as has been pointed out, the divisions created by the government propaganda machine, creating an underclass, eg. the deserving/undeserving poor. The scrounger/striver analogy. All of these go toward creating the conditions that created the holocaust. It would appear to be inevitable that somebody suffers, politically, in a recession, then it was the jews/gypsies/homosexuals/disabled. Now it is the supposedly feckless.

Nancy66 Tue 29-Jan-13 15:31:38

my knowledge of history is not too bad thanks - I wasn't looking for a book recommendation - rather somebody to offer a half-credible reason for the parallels being drawn.

You've had a stab at it Dawn, I disagree but thanks all the same.

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 15:36:58

Which bit do you disagree with? Are the media not creating an idea that the feckless / workshop / spongers / underclass are taking everyone's money. creating a real hatred towards minority groups the unemployed, disabled, single parents? Am I just imagining it?

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 15:37:29

The media and the government

Nancy66 Tue 29-Jan-13 15:38:59

...I disagree that we are on the slippery slope to another holocaust.

Harriet35 Tue 29-Jan-13 15:47:17

I think there's always been resentment towards people on benefits.

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 15:47:32

I don't think anyone's saying exactly the same will happen. But I think it's burying your head in the sand to think that were somehow safe . And you only have to listen to the venom from the government , media and the public to know there's little point having faith in humanity

Harriet35 Tue 29-Jan-13 15:51:10

"Yet it has been pointed out that the medical professionals dealing with some disabled people - GPs, Consultants, say they are not able to work, but some Government clerk decides otherwise. So are you saying that these people are lying? Is that disablist or not?"
I think a lot of GPs are still stuck in a 70s/80s mindset of people being unable to work if they have a bag back or whatever, such as the former miners who were signed off on the sick after the mines closed.

"Where are these jobs and employers rushing to offer work to the disabled? "
That's irrelevent. People shouldn't be classed as unable to work because there aren't enough jobs at the moment.

I think a lot of people have been off work for so long that their confidence is very low and they fear work, but if they actually got a job and got back into the swing of things, they would be far happier and more fulfilled.

threesocksmorgan Tue 29-Jan-13 15:51:37

I don't think it will happen again.
but the hatred towards disabled people is rising. the government have brain washed people into believing that disabled person = shirker.
it should ring alarm bells.
yet the prime minister should understand better that anyone what it is like to love and care for some one with a disability.... but has he said anything to stop this hatred, no.

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 15:55:56

Harriet it's not as simple as 'a bad back or whatever' people have a lot more serious and debilitating illnesses . People have actually died after being classed as fit for work. Have you watched any of the recent documentary that have been on?

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 15:57:50

And do you actually know any disabled people who have lost their DLA?

BBC article

"Nazi propaganda in the form of posters, news-reels and cinema films portrayed disabled people as "useless eaters" and people who had "lives unworthy of living". The propaganda stressed the high cost of supporting disabled people, and suggested that there was something unhealthy or even unnatural about society paying for this"

Nazi poster

Translation: 60,000 Reich marks. What this person suffering from is hereditary defects costs the People’s community during his lifetime. Comrade, that is your money too.

Another poster

Nazi propaganda slide contrasting how far 5.50 German Marks will go. The cost of feeding one person with a hereditary disease for one day is the same as it would cost to feed an entire family of healthy Germans.

From here
"Among the general public, the war effort's reallocation of resources also highlighted the divide between those who were healthy and able to contribute and survive unaided, and those with disabilities who could not. Thus, by the end of World War I, an implicit but palpable public perception of higher economic worth was attached to people without disabilities, and lesser worth was attributed to people with disabilities."

Note the repetition of the disabled taking money from the able bodied.

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 16:03:02

and to be fair, even if many could be supported back into work, (a) where's the support , and I mean real support and (b) do toy really think having a member of parliament stand and.call yoy a feckless no good workshy, scrounger spongers is the right way to go ?

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 16:07:39

You're welcome Nancy. Sorry you can't manage a more than credible explanation.

Nancy66 Tue 29-Jan-13 16:20:49

I don't think 'no, I do not believe we're heading for another holocaust' particularly needs any elaboration

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 17:00:40

garlic said...

During my school years, in the 1960s - 1970s, handicapped children were designated ineducable even if their handicaps were only physical. There were tucked away in institutions (where they were, for the most part, sedated) which is mainly why so many of my generation think "you didn't use to see all these disabled around." As others have remarked, a high proportion became institutionalised and are still in care facilities, although they tend to die young. The Warnock Report of 1978 finally got things changed.

one of my closest friends who i met in 1990 used to go to the same high school as me.
She was 2 years above me so we didnt really know each other that well while we actually were going to the same school.
She was and is absolutely brilliant at maths.
But the school took her out of maths lessons and put her in "special help" (thats what they called it)
Why? Because she has epilepsy. Now this was in the mid to late 80s so not that long ago.
Her daughter takes after her and is at uni doing a maths degree.

I want to say i fully support what Hecate and Garlic and others on here are saying. We are looking at the 10 to 15 yrs leading up to the holocaust and there are similarites.

KatyTheCleaningLady Tue 29-Jan-13 17:23:57

I do see one significant difference: nobody in Germany was denying that these people were legitimately disabled. They weren't seen as cheating the system, but merely burdening it. Today's rhetoric is more about malingering and gaming the system by people who could work if they wanted to.

There's less rhetoric about the burden of people seen as genuinely unable to support themselves, which is the case with elderly people with dementia. There's a little bit of talk about the stresses of an aging population, but not really any demonizing, aside from comments by ethicists.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 18:10:22

<sigh>
Government figures state that fraud for DLA is 0.4%.
It's hardly the majority malingering and gaming the system.

Dawndonna Tue 29-Jan-13 18:10:51

Oh, and DLA is not an out of work benefit.

tabulahrasa Tue 29-Jan-13 18:24:00

Most charity research about DLA also suggest that it's massively under claimed anyway, so in fact rather than people claiming it when they shouldn't, there are thousands not claiming it who are entitled to it.

In changing DLA to PIP it's also making it easier to defraud....DLA requires someone other than the claimant to sign a statement about their care needs, for medical professionals involved to give their professional opinion about the claimants care needs, proof was required of any aids or paid interventions and if it was warranted an assesment would also be carried out.

PIP just requires somebody to convince an unqualified assessor that they're disabled on one day.

KatyTheCleaningLady Tue 29-Jan-13 18:26:18

Dawn I am not saying that anybody is malingering and gaming the system. That's the demonized stereotype.

ParsingFancy Tue 29-Jan-13 18:45:40

Katy there's a continuum though.

A while back, a MNer was attacked by a stranger in a cafe when she had a minor epileptic episode (hope she won't mind me mentioning this again.)

The stranger abused her using terms like "scrounger" and saying she shouldn't have had kids.

That stranger knew nothing about the MNer's finances, whether she received any benefits, could care for her DC, worked, etc. All she knew was that the MNer was visibly ill. But for her, being "legitimately disabled" and being a scrounger were the same thing.

The stranger may have been thick. But so are an awful lot of people.

ParsingFancy Tue 29-Jan-13 18:52:06

I agree, btw, that this is not the same as the state shooting people because they've acknowledged they're disabled. We're not there yet.

But we are at a stage where people found not fit to work even by the govt's own, very narrow test, are being labelled as simply unemployed (BBC article yesterday). And the govt is in the process of implementing indefinite, mandatory work-for-welfare for these same people it says are not fit to work.

babybarrister Tue 29-Jan-13 18:56:47

This is a very distasteful thread - there is no plan by anyone in power to carry out a killing of disabled people in this country as you well know. A few loonies just does not justify such a comparison. Try making comparisons with killings that are actually happening- let's face it sadly there are far too many actual atrocities going on. You do not help your cause making this type of comparison sad

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 19:08:39

Baby, the issue is about similarities between the campaigns to 'other', blame or demonise certain sectors in society, gradually disenfranchising them, in pre-WW2 Germany and in Britain today (as well as other places.) You perhaps haven't read the many posts highlighting and detailing these similarities.

As just one example, the black triangle applied to sick & disabled concentration camp inmates was labelled "workshy" rather than the truth, which was 'unwell'. You may have noticed a greatly increased propensity of Britons, led by the government, to label sick & disabled people workshy (on this thread, as elsewhere.)

Most of the thread has focused on things that were happening in Germany well before concentration camps were even invented. By the time Germans realised how bad things were going to get, it was too late. We always say we remember the Holocaust so no such thing could happen again - not precisely the same thing; the same kind of passivity & manipulation, which dehumanised large numbers of people thus making their escalating abuse seem acceptable.

How may we learn if we refuse to consider?

babybarrister Tue 29-Jan-13 19:19:16

Whether or not the disabled are labelled as workshy, I repeat no- one with any power is suggesting their killing and I really cannot conceive of any circumstances in which this would come to pass. I can however actually watch reports of mass killing in Syria, Afghanistan etc etc
I have not read the whole thread but just cannot believe people are really worried that killing may come to pass

chandellina Tue 29-Jan-13 19:26:12

This thread is all over the shop. On the original point, there's no need for mandatory abortion for those conditions - not that there ever would or should be - because most people screened for testing make that decision anyway. If you think that's wrong, fight for conditions to be imposed on abortion availability.

On the broader disability issue, it is a fact that more people are claiming as disabled over time, despite a healthier population overall. I don't presume to draw conclusions but I think it's safe to say more disabled people would seek work if there was no safety net.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 19:26:43

No, you haven't read the thread ...

ParsingFancy Tue 29-Jan-13 19:27:58

Yep, "workshy" already being used:

"Fines for workshy sickness benefits claimants to double", Daily Telegraph, 3 Sep 2012

The article leaves the reader confused as to why people "judged fit to return to work" are "on Employment Support Allowance" at all. Because of course if they've been found fit to work, they won't be eligible for it.

In fact this is people who have been found not fit to work, even under the new test, and placed in the Work-Related Activity Group. This is the majority of people who receive ESA, and is regardless of whether a person's condition is in fact likely to improve.

sparklyjumper Tue 29-Jan-13 19:29:03

baby I 'think' that what people are saying, is not that the exact same thing is going to happen.

But, already they are devaluing certain groups, making them out to be nothing but a burden, creating mass hatred. Disabled people are actually dying, after having their benefit taken away, and who actually cares? Who actually even realises?

Personally with all the benefit cuts, many of which haven't even come into force yet, and the way the housing market is, I could easily see us going back to workhouses and institutions, and from there who knows.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 19:37:32

More people are claiming as disabled over time - really?

"The number of claimants in Great Britain rose sharply during the late 1980s and early 1990s, from under 1¼ million to around 2½ million (see chart 1). Caseload growth slowed down after 1995, with the introduction of Incapacity Benefit. Since 2003 the working-age caseload has exhibited a gradual downward trend."

From House of Commons briefing note SN01420, July 2012. It's widely accepted that the late 80s spike was caused by the Thatcher administration pushing redundant miners, shipworkers, etc, on to incapacity benefits in order to mask unemployment.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 29-Jan-13 19:49:38

It may be distasteful babybarrister, but so is what is happening to disabled people.

www.regent.edu/acad/schedu/uselesseaters/ shows what happened to disabled people before and during the holocaust.

chandellina Tue 29-Jan-13 20:47:09

Garlic block, the number is now 2.6m and those assumptions about why it rose in that earlier period have been debunked.

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:13:37

chandellina you dont think that might have something to do with more disabled children surviving childbirth and early life due to advances in medical care????!!!!
I would have thought that would have actually at least crossed your mind for a split second considering that you are posting on a parenting site no???!!!

Oh and garlic has actually supplied figures above.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 21:16:43

It barely matters why loads of people suddenly went onto sickness benefits in 1986-91, Chandellina. That was over 20 years ago; the affected towns & districts remain moribund; many of the recipients will be reaching retirement age now.

I know the number is 2.6m, it was in the government document I linked for you - which states there is a decline in numbers, not the increase you claimed.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 21:21:47

You're right about reasons for more long term recipients, Darkest! The number of claims has been falling for 10 years, however.

The Office of National Statistics publishes all this data. It's more reliable than screaming headlines.

chandellina Tue 29-Jan-13 21:23:12

You said yourself it was 2.5m at its peak but it's actually higher now.

Darkesteyes, surely you have considered the medical advances, physical infrastructure, medication, etc. allowing more people with physical or mental health disabilities to function better?

chandellina Tue 29-Jan-13 21:24:25

I was looking at the ons data.

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:27:19

Agreed Garlic. The Gov rhetoric that is often used is long term unemployed and long term sick.
My friend has a son who is 24 this year but has the mind of a toddler (sorry i cant explain it any better than that in writing) he got called into the job centre and he had to go or lose benefit.
You should have seen their faces when my friend took him in there in his wheelchair.
They were falling over themselves apologising. They have promised it wont happen again but she knows not to hold her breath.

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:31:42

That would be the same ons data that classes workfare as being employed!

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 21:36:57

No, you have misread the paragraph I pasted from the Commons briefing, Chandellina. This strand contributes nothing salient to the discussion in hand, afaics. I wanted to disprove your incorrect assumption - also incorrectly made by Iain Duncan Smith, who had access to the same briefing - that numbers have risen. They haven't. They are falling.

Darkest, your story reminds me of one my Jobcentre "advisor" told me, about a client of hers who has learning difficulties. She did not understand that her benefits had been stopped because she missed a deadline, that she couldn't get back the missed payments or why she had to do the forms. Apparently she cried for the whole hour sad The advisor struggles to enjoy her job.

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:37:55

Darkesteyes, surely you have considered the medical advances, physical infrastructure, medication, etc. allowing more people with physical or mental health disabilities to function better?

How the fuck does that help my friends son.

Even if he was just only physically disabled WHICH HE ISNT. there is the lack of public transport for the disabled. many busses arent fitted with ramps and when they are the driver is reluctant to get the ramp out in the pissing rain. To use a train with a chair or scooter you have to give THREE DAYS notice.

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 21:38:55

OMG! Does it class workfare as employment?? shock

Not going to look it up now (I get lost in those tables, then end up knowing stacks of things I'll never, ever have call to know. I'm such an interesting person hmm)

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:41:39

Yes Garlic. i saw something about it online just before Christmas. It classes workfare as being employed.

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:44:44

blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/01/15/condems-fiddling-employment-stats-105000-on-workfare-schemes/

Of those counted as employed 105"000 were on back to work schemes.

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:47:09

From the same link.

A parliamentary answer from the ONS director general, Glen Watson, given in October last year, confirms that even if people were claiming jobseeker’s allowance, they could still be counted as employed.

He said: “Those participants [in government schemes] whose activity comprises any form of work, work experience, or work-related training, are classified as in employment. This is regardless of whether the individual is paid or not.”

garlicblocks Tue 29-Jan-13 21:51:58

OMFG. We are in the land of make-believe.

Haha, I'm employed, then! Had my Work programme referral at Christmas - last time I'll see the unhappy JCP advisor. So, OK. I'm not working. I'm a benefit claimant (not getting them just now, but that's another story.) I earn zero.
But I'm employed.
confused
[you will be]

Soooo. Should Daily Mail readers hate me because I don't work, earn or pay tax?
Or love me because I'm employed?

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 21:59:33

<imagines daily mail readers heads imploding>

chandellina Tue 29-Jan-13 22:21:48

I looked only at the raw ons data, the current series and one from 2002 that had quarterly numbers since 1995. It went down slightly and then started rising again. Honestly I'm not sure how meaningful the trends might be in the past 20 years but over a longer period there would have been far fewer people labeled disabled or drawing upon benefits. I don't pretend to know in a nutshell all the reasons, I'm sure there has been plenty of analysis around it though.

diaimchlo Tue 29-Jan-13 22:39:36

I have read this thread from beginning to end and would like to thank Garli and Hectate as well as many others but can't find the braincell to go back and name all, for their input.

At this moment in time it is not an actual holocaust but it seems to be the beginning of one as has already been stated.

Being 54 after working all my working life except fro time off to bring my children up (15 years I was a SAHM) I developed seropositive Rheumatoid Arthritis, COPD, Oestioarthritis and Psosrasis, all chronic conditions that cannot be cured only managed to a certain extent with medication. As a result of this there are days when I can barely move about, even on a good day it can take a couple of hours before I can start mobilising. I can only sleep for a couple of hours at a time so suffer Chronic fatigue and need to sleep during the day.
The medication I take also has it's side effects which at times are not pleasant.

Would I like to work? yes I would, so all of you that are bleating that the disabled should do menial jobs at least find me a post that I can do, do bear in mind there will have to be sleeping equipment there and the employer would have to be ok with me taking time off for appts as I see 3 different consultants, OTs, Physios etc.

I would also like to draw your attention to Callums List at http://calumslist.org/ there have been deaths which are attributed to this horrendous system.

diaimchlo Tue 29-Jan-13 22:41:02

calumslist.org/ sorry didn't tick the box

LaVolcan Tue 29-Jan-13 22:43:56

chandellina and others - does it matter whether the numbers of people drawing benefits has increased or decreased? Why should disabled people be bearing the brunt of the cuts? Have we totally lost all compassion as a society?

I thought I was well informed but have had my eyes opened and have been very disturbed by what I have read on some of the links, particularly mikesivier.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/mps-tell-their-own-atos-horror-stories/. I am glad that garlicblocs started the thread, my question to myself is 'What can I do about it?'

diaimchlo Tue 29-Jan-13 22:45:44

well said LoV

Darkesteyes Tue 29-Jan-13 22:52:52

LaVolcanTue 29-Jan-13 22:43:56

chandellina and others - does it matter whether the numbers of people drawing benefits has increased or decreased? Why should disabled people be bearing the brunt of the cuts? Have we totally lost all compassion as a society

It deserved posting twice. Completely agree LaVolcan.

Sunnywithshowers Tue 29-Jan-13 23:00:18

Hear hear LaVolcan

I didn't know about the black triangle/workshy thing, you couldn't make it up could you?

Leithlurker Wed 30-Jan-13 00:38:20

I am not going to read the thread, mainly as I want to vent and I am as angry as I do not need to risk apoplexy and or a stroke by reading the frankly ludicruse and very often disabelist crap earlier in the thread. been on MN long enough as others have to have read it, seen it, been there, got the T shirt, been to the film, just waiting for the box set to come out on dvd!

So two questions for all those that dispute the holacaust theory. Would you be happy to see your son or daughter marry and have children with a person with a physical disability, a learning disability, a mental health problem all declared up front and not hidden?

If I am honest I expect some of you to lie to that one, I am sure most will say shite like "If my baby was happy that would be all I want" But deep in your souls you would feel that they are making a mistake, am I right?

2nd question: If a pill or an injection were developed that cured all disabilities of all kinds, what would you think about those people who refused to have it. Would they be selfish, or lazy, deluded even. if they decided to stay impaired would you feel it reasonable to say "Right then you had your chance you could have been like the majority, you could have had all the advantages of being able bodied but you have chosen to stay as you are, so thats your choice but you having made that choice forfeit all help in every form from the state. No housing, no benefit apart from the standard, no mobility cars, no blue badges" You want to be disabled then you get on with it."

See I think were back to fear, fear of things that most norms just cannot comprehend, they don't like difference it makes them uneasy. Yet when challenged on it they will say "Oh yes we feel sorry for them, we must help them, as long as they are quiet and docile and grateful and willing to accept that they are 2nd class citizens.

Lastly in this rant, I draw a simple comparison with the holocaust, in towns and cities in each and every burgh and council authority plans are being drawn up as to how to implement self directed payment, personalisation, self directed support are three names it goes by. iN glasgow for one, people are being pressurised in to group homes and giving up their own individual houses and tenancies because it is cheaper to house them together rather than put the support packages in place. People are being detained in mental health units as a result of Glasgow city council being unable to organise care packages. Families of adults with Learning Disabilities in Glasgow are forced to take out power of attorney orders in a bid to prevent Glasgow city council of taking them out. Why would the council want those orders, to force people from their homes at the slightest sign of any inconvenient behaviour, or problematic neighbour issues.Not to mention the fact that it costs them less if they do not have to support people in the community.That is one city, one council, each council will be diffrent some better some worse. How long then before a council or a city looks at it's budget and says "Hay what if we house everyone with needs together. They could have their own rooms, 24/7 support, all the facilities that we think they might want, oh and lets call it something like Little Warsaw after the ghetto"

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 00:47:11

I don't see how disabled people ARE baring the brunt of the cuts. It's not like they are the only ones suffering here. Do you think they should bare none of it?

Leithlurker, councils need to make cuts. It's a matter of pragmatism rather than idealism. Yes disabled people could get more, we all could. But we don't live in a perfect world. The current cuts are a million miles away from the holocaust. And yet if there was a pill that cured disabilities, I would expect disabled people to take it!

Leithlurker Wed 30-Jan-13 00:53:27

And your daughter Harriet does she get to marry a crip?

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 00:55:54

If she wants to, sure. Why do you ask?

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:09:46

Harriet35Wed 30-Jan-13 00:47:11

I don't want to see how disabled people ARE baring the brunt of the cuts. It's not like they are the only ones suffering here. Do you think they should bare none of it?

There you go. Corrected for you.

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 01:22:35

You really think that disabled people are baring the entire brunt of the cuts?

LaVolcan Wed 30-Jan-13 01:24:05

Well forgive me Harriet but it looks to me as though the disabled are bearing the brunt of the cuts. Just looking at the rate of DLA the maximum that someone can be awarded is £131.50 a week or it might be as little as 20.55? Does it need spelling out that someone on an income of £50K, £100K per annum is not going to feel that loss in the same way?

It's a matter of pragmatism rather than idealism. Yes disabled people could get more, we all could. But we don't live in a perfect world.

Thank God some of us do have idealism. No, it's not a matter of pragmatism, it's a matter of choices. We needn't be spending money on a senseless war which Tony Blair took us into, we could start asking Corporations such as Amazon to pay their dues, for a couple of starters.

And yet if there was a pill that cured disabilities, I would expect disabled people to take it! You espouse a view like that and yet you believe we are a million miles away from the holocaust?

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:25:58

And yet if there was a pill that cured disabilities, I would expect disabled people to take it!

Yes i believe Goebbals expected the same!

"And yet if there was a pill that cured disabilities, I would expect disabled people to take it!"

Dear fucking god..

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 01:28:56

Why would you not expect disabled people to take it? It's a ridiculous argument anyway, but if theoritically such a pill existed, surely disabled people would want to take it?

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:29:25

And yet Harriet says we are nowhere near the same thinking that led to the holocaust.

Hoist by your own petard eh Harriet.

<ive always wanted a chance to use that phrase>

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 01:31:04

What does this pill have to do with the holocaust? Is it really a suicide pill or something and I've missed the point entirely?

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:33:31

FFS Harriet they used disabled people for testing all sorts of drugs on during the war.
Do you not even realise how fucking offensive you are being. JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 01:35:10

I don't think I am being offensive. I assumed you were talking about a theoritical pill that would cure disabilities, because that is what you said. If you had meant "testing all sorts of drugs" then that is what you should have said!

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:35:43

Nazi human experimentations were a series of medical experiments on large numbers of prisoners, mainly Jews (including Jewish children) from across Europe, but also in some cases Roma, Soviet POWs and disabled non-Jewish Germans, by the Nazi German regime in its concentration camps mainly in the early 1940s, during World War II and the Holocaust. Prisoners were coerced into participating; they did not willingly volunteer and there was never informed consent. Typically, the experiments resulted in death, disfigurement or permanent disability, and as such are considered as examples of medical torture. At Auschwitz and other camps, under the direction of Dr. Eduard Wirths, selected inmates were subjected to various hazardous experiments which were designed to help German military personnel in combat situations, develop new weapons, aid in the recovery of military personnel that had been injured, and to advance the racial ideology backed by the Third Reich.[1] Dr. Aribert Heim conducted similar medical experiments at Mauthausen. Carl Værnet is known to have conducted experiments on homosexual prisoners in attempts to cure homosexuality. After the war, these crimes were tried at what became known as the Doctors' Trial, and revulsion at the abuses perpetrated led to the development of the Nuremberg Code of medical ethics.

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:37:37

Harriet this is your statement saying people should be pressured into taking that pill.

2nd question: If a pill or an injection were developed that cured all disabilities of all kinds, what would you think about those people who refused to have it. Would they be selfish, or lazy, deluded even. if they decided to stay impaired would you feel it reasonable to say "Right then you had your chance you could have been like the majority, you could have had all the advantages of being able bodied but you have chosen to stay as you are, so thats your choice but you having made that choice forfeit all help in every form from the state. No housing, no benefit apart from the standard, no mobility cars, no blue badges" You want to be disabled then you get on with it."

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:39:52

And from the Wiki page i pulled it from.

Prisoners were coerced into participating; they did not willingly volunteer and there was never informed consent.

And you really see no similarities Harriet.!
You know whats really fucking scary. A LOT of people think like you.
GOD HELP US.

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:40:59

Full page. Its harrowing reading.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Morloth Wed 30-Jan-13 01:41:45

So what are you going to do about it?

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:42:19

Is that to me or H.

If you actually read the thread then you'd see that people aren't saying that a holocaust is actually going to happen, but that other events that preceded it (eg. the propaganda and shift in public attitudes) either are happening or seem to be on the horizon.

One of those things that the Nazis did was push the idea of the disabled being a burden and that disabled people were lesser than able bodied people. By their logic, "why would anyone choose to be disabled?". Sound familiar?

So from this utterly logical standpoint, and as there was no magical pill to cure the disabled and make them useful eaters rather than useless eaters, what could they do?

So they started with sterilisation so faulty genes couldn't be passed down, originally voluntary.

Logical right? Save disabled people from ever suffering their disability or costing the state money?

Of course there were still disabled people alive who they hadn't managed to prevent being born.

Well they could give the people the option to stop being disabled for good? Ah yes, that makes sense, free them from the torment of their disability. What a lovely thing to do. So voluntarily people ended their lives.

Hmm, still disabled people around. What could they try next? Coerced euthanasia for the "good of the fatherland". They even had films made to let everyone know how glorious it was to give up your life for the sake of the country.

But what about the ones who didn't want to die? Who thought that their disability, while not ideal, was a part of them that needed to be accepted? Well, by this point the general public had seen all these brave people accepting sterilisation and euthanasia in order that the able bodied would have more money in those dire financial times, when everyone was struggling. Doesn't it look a little bit selfish of these disabled people to take money from the able bodied and not give back? Isn't it a bit illogical to want to remain disabled when not being disabled would help others? I mean, it means dying, but what kind of life do they have anyway? Maybe if they aren't going to think clearly then someone else should decide for them....

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:49:13

Harriet seems to possess the same logic mentioned in your post Goths.

Harriet35 Wed 30-Jan-13 01:50:16

You don't seem to be willing to debate the subject, so I will leave it at that.

The thing to remember is, the Nazis didn't become powerful because the German public were evil and bloodthirsty.

They became powerful because the public were vulnerable.

They were suffering, their economy was fucked. There were few jobs. Living was unaffordable. And when they were told that their lives could be hugely improved if the people who weren't paying into the pot stopped getting paid from the pot, well it made perfect sense to them. Especially if it was explained to them that those not paying in were doing so because they were lazy and greedy. Rather than vulnerable and struggling.

Their response was understandable, but it was lethal.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 01:54:02

Harriet, I've decided to explain this to you because I can see why you don't get it, and that others might be too cross to explain. I hope people will put me right if I explain poorly.

I would take the magic pill. This is because my disability is caused by illness; it's something that's happened to me - a bad thing, a lessening of myself. I imagine most people who've been disabled by accidents would feel the same.

My disability is not part of ^who I am^; it's an unwanted extra. For someone whose disability is part of who they've always been, asking them to take the pill would be like asking me to take something that would make me shorter, or less creative, or better at tennis but worse at languages - do you see? I wouldn't want to take a pill just to be more like everyone else, because it would make me less 'me'.

By assuming that all disabled people want to take the pill, you have automatically judged them not good enough. Your base assumption is that they - their very self - is inferior. And that they feel inferior, wishing there were a pill to make them more like you.

That means you consider them sub-standard human beings. I'm sure you didn't realise this, but perhaps you can see how this very assumption, that they're substandard and know it, can lead to atrocities.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 01:54:55

Catching up on your posts, Goths - powerful stuff.

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 01:57:42

Great post Garlic. And Goths your post has summed up the similarities well.
Garlic you are right. I am cross.

LaVolcan Wed 30-Jan-13 01:58:18

MurderofGoths - I was going to post something similar but you beat me to it and put it better.

One small crumb of comfort to me is that we don't have intellectuals like George Bernard Shaw, etc. supporting eugenics. We do still have people around who were alive during that time, who can speak from first hand experience about how it all started. There are people like us who are saying 'don't forget history'. I've got a number of elderly Jewish friends who had to flee the nazis. I have no reason to doubt what they tell me. A recently deceased elderly friend was in Holland during the war - I can't repeat her stories but I knew her to be a woman of integrity, so I am 100% sure what she told me was true.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 01:58:32

And Darkest, too. I need to go back to bed!

garlic Thank you for that, you put into words what I couldn't.

FWIW I'm with you, I'd take the pill in a heartbeat. Because I remember a time before. But if it's all you've ever known? Much less clear cut. Some might, some might not. Just because a disability makes life hard it doesn't mean someone would part with it.

Not quite the same but, I'm a shortarse, I was bullied for it. My life was a misery. But even back then, if you'd asked me to take a pill to change it not only would I not want it, I'd also feel like you'd decided my height made me "abnormal", "unnatural" and less of a person.

While there is logic in it wrt disability, it is a logic that is too black and white. Disabled people are just as valuable to society, even if their contribution isn't financial.

Also Harriet can I apologise for swearing at you? I'm in a bit of a fragile state this evening and let it get the better of me. I wasn't debating I was just being a twat.

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 02:06:35

My FIL passed away eleven years ago. He came from Warsaw.
He always flatly refused to discuss the war. It upset him too much. He used to get panic attacks when he saw police officers because of the uniform and he didnt trust them.

It wasnt until a few years after he died that DH went through some old papers of his.
He found some papers and cards and an ID card with French Resistance on them.
I think my FIL probably did some brave things but because he refused to talk about it we will never know what.
But seeing anyone in uniform like the police would frighten him and he didnt trust him.
We do know he lost family members.
That and his fear of uniforms is just one legacy of those atrocities.

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 02:14:12

DH is a lot older than me. Thats why my FIL was older than most of the in laws of MNers. FIL was roughly 80 when he died.

DexysMidnightMummers Wed 30-Jan-13 02:34:47

sorry but every genocide is as bad as last

yes it was holocaust remembrance day ..........but about all the recent holcausts

Rwanda, Bosnair, daifir............maybe even now Malia

What about all the Christians were killed under hitlers rule

DexysMidnightMummers Wed 30-Jan-13 02:40:01

thousands of every race creed and religion died in both world wars.

The NAZi's were not very nice nice but the Jewish were not the only victims

DexysMidnightMummers Wed 30-Jan-13 02:48:43

And yes I do fear that the UK Government will try and employ these tactics

Hitler/Cameron/Clegg ........there are all politicians and ont care about real people

Kungfutea Wed 30-Jan-13 03:24:43

Blimey, I think that's crass understatement of the year 'the nazis were not very nice'.

And, yes, hitler was just another politician. Just like Cameron and clegg.

And how dare those pesky Jews keep banging on about being victims, don't they know that other people were killed in the second world war?

People on this thread seem to think that Germans in nazi Germany had full democratic rights and just were a bit mean to Jews and disabled people.

The ignorance on this thread is just astounding.

Kungfutea Wed 30-Jan-13 03:31:48

The nazis made no secret of their eugenic philosophy and the fact that disabled (and Jews and gypsies) were seen as polluting the 'master race'. That was the main driving force behind their murderous actions. I'm not sure I've seen anything like that in the conservative manifesto.

I can understand people feeling victimised, demonised, discriminated against. The analogy with the holocaust is just wrong, it's insulting to those of us who did lose family in the holocaust and it's unnecessary hyperbole IMO.

You could talk about the importance of caring for those who are weaker and more vulnerable in the moral, liberal and democratic society we aspire to be but you can't bring in the holocaust without sounding ridiculous and completely ignorant about what happened.

DexysMidnightMummers Wed 30-Jan-13 03:42:07

o really

so when is rhwanda day?

what about every genocide that has happened post world war two?

do they all get days named after them too?

DexysMidnightMummers Wed 30-Jan-13 03:46:41

post ww2 .......germany was disarmed and a new country called Israel was born.

Now is Isreal not one of the biggest problems on this planet?

Kungfutea Wed 30-Jan-13 05:40:43

Goodness, you really don't like Jews much, do you dexys?

Maybe the holocaust is all a myth in aid of the Zionist cause?

JakeBullet Wed 30-Jan-13 06:24:02

For all my rants on this thread I have to say that the analogy is not good. I think we remember the Holocaust because perhaps or the first time people all over the world were able to have knowledge via newspapers etc.....the photos I have seen in my time (from various retired WW2 veterans) are absolutely shocking. It's OT surprising that a day was set aside to remember those who died.
Since that time there have been other incidences of genocide but as the world has got more media infused so we have lost the sense of shock that perhaps those early photos gave people for the first time.
So Holocaust Memorial Day is a day when I remember the people who died in WW2 for ideological reasons, but I also remember people who have died at other times for the same reason.sad

Leithlurker Wed 30-Jan-13 07:32:52

I am glad my pill question showed the very attitude I had not wanted to see, it reinforces the lack of progress that has been made in accepting the "other" no matter if they are disabled, jewish, gay, or black. Unfortunately a strong resentment exists to any one who does not conform to a stereotype that is deep rooted in white anglo saxon mythology.

Garlic I understand why you would take the pill and indeed I know many people who were born with their disability would do the same, this is the flaw that is being used to push people in to self hating and loathing. From day one once your disabled you lose much if not all of your ability to control your life, you lose dignity, you lose hope and expectation as you become medicalised and a problem to be solved like a Rubik cube. The sense that we grow up with or learn to accept is that we are viewed as objects of pity and fear. We are used like the spectre of doom to threaten others, we are segregated, belittled, and denied our feelings and our humanity.

So kungfu I agree we should not diminish the holocaust or the EXPERIENCE OF jewish people. However if whilst we remember the holocaust should we not use the remembrance to make sure that no group is singled out and targeted in the same way ever again.

Dawndonna Wed 30-Jan-13 07:42:31

FFS. Some are too thick to see it. We are not saying this is the Holocaust, we are saying that these are similar to the events that led to it. Read the thread or don't bother commenting.

As for taking a pill, each to their own, but Einstein, Bill Gates, my dh? I know the answer for my dh, and I'm fairly sure Einstein and Gates wouldn't because in their cases, as well as dh and dcs, it is part of who they are.

Leithlurker Wed 30-Jan-13 08:58:28

Dawn, I would also not take the pill, and indeed Harriet is right to point that it is a pretty stupid argument as no pill will ever exist. Disability will always occur, wars, and auto accidents will see to that.
The Pill that really should be invented though is the one that allows people to see and value equally all life styles and all types of people. However as harriet has shown the numbers of people taking that pill as a result of an inability to empathise and value others, would bankrupt what is left of the NHS. I think I will stop posting now as I was angry last night and now as is the way of things my depressive cycle has started back down the way.

HecateWhoopass Wed 30-Jan-13 09:10:05

dawn - they don't WANT to see what we are actually saying.

Because then they'd have to look at what we are saying. They may even have to see what we see. Then they may feel they are expected to act. Although maybe not.Probably not. Probably still get told to shut up and be grateful, cos nobody has to help the vulnerable at all anyway...

By pretending that what we are saying is that we are to be rounded up and sent to the gas chambers tomorrow and that this government has a secret document that outlines its plans to kill us, they can tell us we are being stupid and disrespectful (and indeed that would be true if that's what we were saying! It would be VERY stupid and VERY disrespectful to say that what is happening now is like the extermination of millions of people.), instead of taking a good long look at what it is we are saying. Where it is we are saying that we are. What we are actually comparing what's happening to us now to.

LaVolcan Wed 30-Jan-13 09:23:33

What we are actually comparing what's happening to us now to.

But this time we won't have the excuse that we didn't know what it could lead to.

Kendodd Wed 30-Jan-13 10:43:45

"So two questions for all those that dispute the holacaust theory. Would you be happy to see your son or daughter marry and have children with a person with a physical disability, a learning disability, a mental health problem all declared up front and not hidden?"

Yes, no and yes. I wouldn't be happy for my child to marry somebody with a learning disability. IMO this could never be an intellectually equal relationship, how could they communicate fully together? I don't see how the non disabled person could be anything other than the 'boss' in this situation. Sorry. Please explain how I'm wrong.

"2nd question: If a pill or an injection were developed that cured all disabilities of all kinds, what would you think about those people who refused to have it."

Up to them, although to be honest I would be baffled by such a decision. I don't see how it is better to- not be able to walk, than be able to walk, be blind, than be able to see, live life in pain, than be pain free, for example. I can't imagine anyone who in adulthood became blind/deaf etc deciding it was better to stay that way. Although I can see that if people a born disabled it might be a scary new world they would be entering into.

Some might find my opinion offensive, but they are honest and I don't mean to offend.

Nancy66 Wed 30-Jan-13 10:44:27

....plus moutstaches are now fashionable again.

It all makes sense. I think you might be on to something.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Wed 30-Jan-13 11:06:01

Leithlurker

I did, as you so delightfully phrased it, 'marry a crip.' Best thing I've ever done. Life isn't always easy but neither are we reliant on benefits. We are a very high income household. We have a wonderful family together.

I find your posts highly offensive.

threesocksmorgan Wed 30-Jan-13 11:13:59

oh do fuck of with this pill shit, a stupid ignorant excuse to make out that disabled people should not accept their disability.

CaptChaos Wed 30-Jan-13 12:48:45

While I don't believe that anyone is planning to roll out the gassing trucks to my son's school, I do worry about his future in a country which is presently demonising people with any sort of disability or long term illness.

The parallels between the language used in the 30's by the National Socialists and others who believed in eugenics, and the rhetoric being spouted now are worrying. Both ideologies have been promoted during times of horrendous financial difficulties, both seek to blame vulnerable sections of society for all ills, however, I would hope that only one leads to death camps, the other seems to be leading to a form of apartheid which only constant vigilance and lobbying will reverse.

kendodd interesting that you wouldn't like your child to marry someone with a learning disability. This means that you would be unhappy with them marrying Richard Branson, Michael Heseltine, Stephen Spielberg or Stephen Redgrave, all of whom have specific learning disabilities. Or did you just mean the ones with an IQ of less than 70 who claim benefits to help them survive?

Dawndonna Wed 30-Jan-13 13:00:20

My dh has a learning disability, along with an iq of 165. He was until he had a serious illness, a philosophy lecturer.
Perhaps you need to rethink your ideas regarding learning disabilities, Ken

justgivemefiveminutes

leithlurker was being sardonic and as a disabled person, was merely turning the insult on it's head and firing it back to someone else.

diaimchlo Wed 30-Jan-13 13:15:04

Ken I have spent my working life, until being unable to work due to ill health, working with Physically and emotionally disabled young people. You mention them not being able to communicate, with the correct support and aids in place everyone can communicate. I have held intelligent conversations with peopl who can just eye point or move one part of their body.

Please do not underestimate the abilities of people. It is just plain rude.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Wed 30-Jan-13 13:21:12

WhoeverHeardOfAWormskinRug

I realise she/she was being provacative hmm but frankly it could've been worded far better. I reserve my right to be offended even though you are not hmm

diaimchlo Bravo. Totally agree with your post.

Darkesteyes Wed 30-Jan-13 13:43:09
Leithlurker Wed 30-Jan-13 13:52:04

Justgive: What offends you is entirely your own call. If you do not like crip, what about raspberry ripple, or spastic, or any other damned word that has been used to denigrate and diminish the lives of disabled people. I am glad your from a high earning household it is good to hear that a person with an impairment is reaching the highs of social and economic life that are denied so many disabled and otherwise.

If though your DH has an obvious disability, wheelchair for example ask him how he feels about those people who stare at him, or those people who rush to open doors, or those people who ignore him, or worse those people who talk to you not him. See it is is those people that will forever see your DH as a crip not himself, or you, or people who love and know him for hi,se;f. My DW married a crip, she knows I am a crip because she knows it's the people who do not know me that think of me in that way. So if you do not mind I will take your offence and mark it down as not being a reflection of the world that I and a lot if not most impaired people inhabit.

JustGiveMeFiveMinutes Wed 30-Jan-13 14:04:14

Please do not use the word crip Leithlurker As I have already said, it is offensive.

My DH has an 'obvious' disability and I am fully aware of people's reactions towards him, so I do not have to, as you have so patronisingly instructed me to, ask him how he feels hmm

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 14:16:02

To be fair to Ken, s/he was saying they doubted that their child would be able to have a normal, equal marriage with somebody who was profoundly disabled with communication difficulties or who had a very low IQ (I assume was meant by learning difficulties, rather than the other sorts). Not to say one couldn't, but it would require unusual qualities in both partners. It could be tricky to maintain the equality, relationship-wise. (I'm even avoiding relationships because of this: don't want to land an abuser or a rescuer!)

I first encountered the "magic pill" test in school, where it was used to highlight racism. In those days it seemed logical to many that a black person should take a make-white pill, simply to fit in and have fewer problems. Same with a make-straight pill for homosexuals.

Now we've overcome our attitudes to colour prejudice and gay-bashing (though not the problems themselves), it seems shocking that most people assumed blacks and gays would prefer to be white and straight. This is why replacing "disabled" with "black" in a sentence makes a good test of bigotry; the assumption comes from the white, straight, fully-abled speaker's sense of innate superiority.

Whoever pointed out that disability prejudice attacks the sufferer's OWN sense of worth was on the money. I described myself as "less" since my illness - and it's certainly how I feel; I struggle with it every day - whereas I could and should say I'm "different". Years of restricted activity, filled with reading and therapy, have lent me a great deal more wisdom and philosophical knowledge. The superfit Garlic of old - who made indecent amounts of money (and paid more into the system than I've had out, btw) - was a bit one-dimensional and seriously dysfunctional, compared to the less active, more thoughtful blob I am now. But I'm not celebrating this enough: my government, and the society I live in, reinforce my feelings of inadequacy & uselessness. They tell me I'm not worth the house I live in and have no right to a social life. My own prejudice against myself agrees. I fight this, but it's heavy going.

In my childhood, a lot of black people and gays also struggled with feelings of self-hatred, for identical reasons.

Since I don't suppose many contemporary Brits would now agree that being black or gay makes a person less worth a decent life, it is important that we ask ourselves if we're now feeling this way about disabled people. We have to stop all such prejudice or, as LaV said, we might let it reach unthinkable conclusions ... and we won't be able to say, this time, we didn't know what could happen sad

Kendodd Wed 30-Jan-13 15:31:11

Yes, sorry, I meant people with a very low IQ learning disability. I have dyslexia myself, I personally don't consider it a 'disability' although happy to accept it may be labelled as such.

"black person should take a make-white pill"

Sorry I don't think this analogy works. Being black is not the same as being blind. Although I accept disabled people do suffer discrimination. I said earlier I don't understand why anyone would make the choice to be blind if the could see/ be in pain if they could be pain free/ etc. To me this is like saying it's preferable to be disabled and research into treatments might as well just stop.

Having said that, I don't believe anyone should be forced to take such a pill, it's up to them. I know if I had an accident/illness that left me unable to walk I'd be begging for it.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 15:35:24

The point is that you consider your evaluation of them to be more correct than their own, Ken.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 15:35:59

... but you did say you wouldn't force anyone to take it, so you're halfway there smile

Dawndonna Wed 30-Jan-13 15:53:09

Ken you need to think about disabilities in a different way. There are many, many people with AS contributing to society in different ways. These people are often (not always) the people that make the leaps, eg. Bill Gates, Einstein et al. Despite depression, severe social difficulties, a tendency to interpret literally, a tendency to be a danger, most would not give up their AS for the world.

garlicblocks Wed 30-Jan-13 16:12:43

When evaluating a disabled person's potentials and quality of life, fully-abled people - including medics -often make incorrect and hugely damaging assumptions. A very obvious example is with profoundly autistic people who, until very recently, were thought to be "vegetative" in that they seemingly had no awareness of the world around them and were uncontrollably angry much of the time.

We now know that they actually have too much awareness. All stimuli are coming in, unfiltered, which overwhelms and distresses the sufferer. The well-meaning paediatrician, cooing in the child's face, was not failing to establish contact but causing actual pain. There are programs in America which use electric shock treatment to force autistic kids to respond as if they were not being over-stimulated. I can't imagine the agony of that.

The disabled children of my schooldays - crippled, epileptic, palsied, etc, etc - were assessed by experts, who honestly believed they were doing the right and kind thing, as ineducable and of similar status to pets. Again, they robbed thousands of young people of their potentials and sentenced them to a fate which engineered the prognosis. Sedated and under-stimulated; uneducated; dependent; the children became passive and incapable sad

In my business life I was wedded to the rule "Assumption is the mother of all cock-ups." This is true in all areas and spectacularly damaging when applied to human lives.

MadHairDay Thu 31-Jan-13 09:25:30

But Ken you're making assumptions about something you do not experience. You're assuming someone who is blind would 'jump at the chance' of such a pill. But being blind, particularly from birth, is a hell of a lot more complex and can become part of the identity of that person. You may think they would feel set free, but actually it could be that if this part of them is taken away they would feel bewildered, lost and unable to function in a world they do not know. It's just not as simple.

I would take the pill, because my disability is not integral to who I am, it's just fucked lungs, which cause constant pain and illness. Yes, I'd jump at the chance. But even I can see that if I did take such a pill I'd have to adapt to a me that was different, that people saw differently, that would be scary and difficult to get used to. Imagine that tenfold with someone with a disability that makes them who they are. My friend for instance, whose beautiful dd has Downs Syndrome - I don't think for a minute she would give her dd this pill. Her dd is who she is, with her disability. To want to 'cure' her, to give her such a magic pill, is making huge assumptions about the life she can lead, her happiness and probably most of all her possible contribution to society, because that is what it comes down to.

I don't believe people's worth is in what they do or how much they contribute. It is so much more than this.

sparklyjumper Thu 31-Jan-13 09:39:02
Peachy Thu 31-Jan-13 09:41:46
Peachy Thu 31-Jan-13 09:45:20

Nice sparkly

if benefits don't work how come we, and other people I know, turned ours into a self employed business after redundancy? This year we have msde enough for first time to hit tax credit targets: we should next year as well when they go up.

Without benefits we'd be on the well known S E Wales scrapheap.

And would I take a pill for my AS? nope, not now, at 40 it's too integral to who I am and anyway i'd need a time capsule as well to remedy 39.5 years of atypical development surely? Not that I am unable to work through the AS, I always did. of my 2 more able to hold an opinion ASD boys, 1 would like a shot and the other would not.

Would I make the other one? Hmm. if it solved the phobias that are destroying him probably, but otherwise no.

Peachy Thu 31-Jan-13 09:47:02

(Oh and as for SPLD- Kendodd has a right to their own opinions but my DH doesn't seem to unhappy after 15 years with me. And he most certainly is NOT the boss. Neither is my IQ low- getting top grades on the MA I am studying anyway ).

Kendodd Thu 31-Jan-13 12:52:35

"And he most certainly is NOT the boss. Neither is my IQ low"

Yes but you have said you don't have a low IQ and I think this is significant. IMO people need to be the intellectual match of their partners for a marriage to work well. This is why I said that I'd be happy for my DCs to marry somebody with a physical disability or mental health problem but not so a learning disability (very low IQ). I just don't see how there could be equality in this relationship.

Were as (for example) marry somebody in a wheelchair maybe (maybe not) they will have to do more of the house work, but so what. At the end of the day, I'd have no say in it anyway so what does it matter who I think DCs should and shouldn't marry.

"but actually it could be that if this part of them is taken away they would feel bewildered, lost and unable to function in a world they do not know. It's just not as simple."

Yes, I acknowledged that. I did say that (particularly) if you had a disability from birth I could see that it could be a scary new world you'd have to enter into.

I do think a lot of people on this thread arguing that society is treating disabled people the way they were treated in pre war Germany are being very selective in what they see. We have just hosted the best Paralympic Games ever, the first to sell out, I went, it was brilliant. We have recently introduced laws against disability discrimination. All new buildings have to be accessible to the disabled. I know we don't live in a perfect world but I don't remember Hitler doing any of these things. Maybe somebody will come on to say he did though as my knowledge of WW2 history isn't expert.

IMO disabled people should work, I said very early on that I think some of them can do great things and most of them can do ordinary things. Just signing them off as unfit for work onto a lifetime of benefits is worse than taking them away and saying 'no, you can do something'. Just retiring people to me looks like 'out of sight, out of mind' where as coming face to face with people with all sort of disabilities in all sorts of situations every day is much better. I know this might be a utopian world I'm describing but at least now the focus seems to be on what you can do rather than what you can't.

BTW I know that the government is not doing this to push disabled people into achieving all they can with a view to making the best life possible for themselves, I know it's just a money saving exercise.