to wonder how 'working age' people are supposed to keep finding more and more extra money?

(100 Posts)
littlemisssarcastic Sun 27-Jan-13 22:16:25

Changes to council tax benefit take effect on April 1st 2013.

I'm convinced there are many people who receive council tax benefit, who are not aware of all of the changes coming in.

My eyes have been opened since I checked my local council's website.

I understand different councils are going to tackle this in different ways.

My council have decided amongst other things that;

Working age claimants will have to pay a minimum of 20% of their council tax, regardless of their income.
Just £10 will be disregarded from income from child maintenance rather than the current 100%.
Claims will be backdated for one month only from the date your council tax bill is issued
No Second Adult Rebate
There will be an increase in the non dependent deductions

They have also decided that "You are not a "pensioner" if you have a partner that gets Income Support, Employment and Support allowance or income-based Jobseekers Allowance."
Other than that, pensioners are exempt from any change to the amount of benefit they receive, ie: pensioners will continue to get 100% of their council tax paid if it would have been paid in full under 'council tax benefit' rules IYSWIM.

That is my councils changes.

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 09:31:00


JakeBullet Mon 28-Jan-13 09:39:40

YANBU....these cuts will affect the working age poor (and that encompasses both working and non-working) disproportionately. It has been bought in by the filthy rich who frankly don't give a stuff.

Evangelinadreamer Mon 28-Jan-13 09:42:43

I just hope those that voted Tory have learnt their lesson now!

LouMae Mon 28-Jan-13 11:23:09

I think it's fair tbh. Everyone should be expected to contribute something to society.

nefertarii Mon 28-Jan-13 11:25:34

evangelina are you serious?

TheBigJessie Mon 28-Jan-13 11:25:36

How do you know they're not contributing to society? Do only monetary contributions count? What about unemployed people who volunteer with charities? Or unemployed people who actually shovel snow off pavements?

noisytoys Mon 28-Jan-13 11:28:21

YANBU It is a scary situation and it is going to get worse. I pay 100% council tax already but I don't begrudge those who can't. It is just making the poor poorer sad

LouMae Mon 28-Jan-13 11:29:01

BigJessie, since we have no way of measuring people's contributions in other ways, and we live in a capitalist society, yes I mean financial.

TheBigJessie Mon 28-Jan-13 11:32:31

So, obviously, big-shot ad execs and bankers contribute more to society than binpeople or sewage workers or postal workers, then. I mean, they're paid more. grin

CloudsAndTrees Mon 28-Jan-13 11:35:42

I think 20% of council tax is fair. Remember they are raising the income tax threshold, so low earners will not be taxed (on income) as much as they were previously.

Yes, I get that measure ps like this are giving it back with one hand and taking it away with the other, but I do agree that everyone should pay some council tax.

Council services are just too important to lose. They pay for education, special educational needs provision, social care and so many other services that we all rely on, such as the police and fire service.

It's horrible that people will struggle to pay, but it would be worse if we lost the services I mentioned above.

LouMae Mon 28-Jan-13 11:40:45

BigJessie you're going off on a tangent. Whether the super rich pay enough taxes is an entirely different topic. This is about everyone contributing to the essential services of the council, because currently there are many people who contribute nothing at all, and yet are probably some of the biggest recipients of state help.

TheBigJessie Mon 28-Jan-13 11:48:32

No, that's a tangent you're reading into my post. I'm pointing out the flaws of only measuring financial contributions to society.

If every ad exec in my town took a week off, I wouldn't care. I would definitely care if everyone took a week off at the sewage plant!

The Super rich paying insufficient tax and keeping their assets off-shore is a relevant issue in that the people who are losing the most - as a proportion of their income - are the poorest sectors of society. People on benefits 'skivers' (including many working poor not earning enough to completely remove themselves from the benefits system) are demonised by the policy decisions of our current Govt and the way the Govt has chosen to communicate their policies.

Council tax Benefit changes will scare many people for whom even a £10-20 loss to their weekly income could be serious, when you have no savings cushion and no means of affordable credit.

The gap between the rich and poor has widened, the cost of living is rising, benefits are being withdrawn and the effects will be catastrophic on some families - collatoral damage to an Eton educated independently wealthy PM but not for the people living miserable lives in poorly managed private rental housing ghettoised by HB changes.

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 14:15:43

op for example if my council had the same rules as urs

the maintanance disregard is £10

so in my current circumstances if i have to pay 20% CT and i recieve £60 a week maintanance they will let me keep the first £10 and then the take into account the remaining fifty

so i will have to pay my sons maintannce towards council tax

im not putting it very well,ive looked on my council website but cannot find the details

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 16:12:21

That's exactly as I understand it thekidsrule.

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 16:26:26

thanks for reply

ffs its taken me 5 years to get this of my ex and now this

will have to enquire with my local council

Harriet35 Mon 28-Jan-13 16:37:02

Council tax is ridiculously high, and local councils run VERY inefficiently, many of them are still working as if it was the 70s, with gold plated pensions and very high levels of absenteeism and laziness. It's time that they were massively reformed and people got good value for money from their tax.

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 16:39:45

I have just found this article which explains a little more.

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 16:41:51

"Brentwood Borough Council plans to axe all council tax support to people under 25."

Jeez, can they even do this??? shock

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 16:43:13

just spoken to my LA council tax department has no idea what the criteria/disregards are yet and will know in a few weeks

bloody hell the staff dont even know,arent they leaving this a bit late or maybe thats why,less time for complaints etc

what a bloody mess this countrys gonna be in this year what with this,cuts,universal credit and many more

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 16:46:52

I think the penny hasn't dropped for a lot of people about students. Some councils are doing away with the exemption for council tax for students.

I imagine it'll affect lots of parents here supporting DCs away at uni, but many are unaware as yet ...

BeanJuice Mon 28-Jan-13 16:47:52

I think I have to agree with LouMae really

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 16:48:30

quick look at the article op will look more later,thanks

may get a flameing but past caring,why are the oap exempt from many of these cuts,bedroom tax etc

were all in this together apart from the MP's mega rich and the OAP's from what i can see

but am prepared to be educated if im completley wrong confused

LucilleBluth Mon 28-Jan-13 16:48:43

Of all the household bills we have to pay council tax is by biggest bug bear, it's much too expensive, it winds me right up. Mine is £190 PCM and I begrudge every penny of it.

I hate this government with a passion, keeping all their rich mates safe whilst robbing the poor, twats.

kilmuir Mon 28-Jan-13 16:51:50

sounds fair to me. not a huge percentage. I would rather tham put it up for those who have to pay the full amount

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 16:58:01

it's not fair when a single person will have to pay a fair wack out of their benefit

example single male

ct contribution

hb top up and rates are slashed again in april

only recieves £71 a week how would that person survive

disclaimer,this is not me im talking about,but i dont think it's fair

CheeseStrawWars Mon 28-Jan-13 16:58:35

Only 56% of 17-24 year olds are registered to vote. They think they can scrap benefits for under 25s without fear of voting comeback.

Only around 15% of over 45s don't vote. So OAPs are likely to punish you in elections. Stats

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 17:00:19

aufaniae "Some councils are doing away with the exemption for council tax for students. "

Does this mean that students, who were previously exempt from paying council tax will now have to pay?
What will happen to the students who live away from home and attend uni? Perhaps they share with a few other students near their uni, what will change for them?
How will this affect parents whose DC are studying?
What will they class as a students income? Their grant?

CheeseStrawWars Mon 28-Jan-13 17:05:07

The "They" in my second sentence = Government. Sorry for lack of clarity.

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 17:09:21

thekidsrule I agree.

I have mentioned my friend on another thread wrt the HB reduction or bedroom tax. This council tax change will be another nail in the coffin for her.

She is unemployed atm, living on £71 a week. She is subject to the bedroom tax which will cost her £16 a week. She will also be subject to the new council tax changes which will cost her at least £6 a week, based on last years council tax, which will probably increase this year.

She has to take a bus to sign on once a fortnight at a cost of £7.

She will be left with £45.50 a week to support herself. She has no other income.

How can anyone support themselves consistently if they only have £45.50 a week for food, bills? Seriously?

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 17:10:57

the worst of this is we will all moan,worry shake are heads but blithly sit by and let this happen

i really do hope that all these cuts etc will not be taken lying down but i fear they will

bad times for many in all circumstances

NicholasTeakozy Mon 28-Jan-13 17:12:08

The people who brought these measures in are having their second houses paid for by us. That includes their Council Tax and mortgage payments. It's disgusting that these well paid, massively expensed, entitled twats are condemning those who are already struggling to penury.

What they know is their 'cuts' are going to end up costing more.

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 17:12:55

op what a bad situation for your friend and many like her

im getting so angry about this and fear many have no idea what's coming

Rather worrying, kidsrulesad
It's bad enough with ctc to help but i can't imagine how awful childless people's lifes are going to be now they are bringing in these changes.

£71 a week only just covers food and a bit if a utility bill, sad

I'm guessing these lot will be voted out come 2015, i for one cannot wait.
I know they need to make cut-backs but its coming too quick, too much & too fast for some of us.
It's rather worrying what some people wish on others, less fortunate than themselves.

We are going back to the arc, and it's already starting. People don't ask to be on mw or unemployed.

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 17:15:42

totally agree pump

have to dash but will be on later and intrested on the catch up of this thread

When you look at the figure for single people, can you honestly say you are surprised that an unemployed person might choose to have a baby?

Not saying its right. But really, how can they live?

BeanJuice Mon 28-Jan-13 17:22:29

littlemisssarcastic I suppose the idea is that being short of money can be an incentive to get a job

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 17:27:30

"Does this mean that students, who were previously exempt from paying council tax will now have to pay?"

In some areas, yes.

"What will happen to the students who live away from home and attend uni?"

They will need to pay council tax, if their local council requires it under the new rules.

"How will this affect parents whose DC are studying?"

They will need to fork out to cover council tax for their DCs as well as other living expenses, if they're unlucky enough to be in an area where students are losing their exemption.

"What will they class as a students income? Their grant?"

I haven't heard about councils taking student income into consideration in this.

Yes, because you can just click your fingers and get a job that easily. Espcially when most jobs at the moment receive on average two hundred applications.

Salbertina Mon 28-Jan-13 17:35:54

Agree, op. its cynical political move - daren't tax the relatively rich pensioners due to their much greater propensity to vote. My parents get several pensions, free travel and winter fuel allowance.. And have three housesangry they're also tight so-and-sos to their struggling families

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 17:45:38

I just hope people wake up and smell the bacon before the next election.

I dread to think what state the country will be in after two terms of this kind of wholesale destruction sad

MoodyDidIt Mon 28-Jan-13 17:51:41


but i should really stop reading these kind of threads. cos they make me angry and depressed and theres FUCK all i can do about it

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 17:52:14

I hope a lot more people choose to vote at the next general election. The statistics for people under 45 voting is quite poor, and under 25's is diabolical.

LouMae Mon 28-Jan-13 18:00:46

I actually do think the super rich should pay more, but I also think that everyone should be expected to contribute, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Benefits were originally intended to provide a short term safety net but have grown into a massive behemoth, and you have people who over the course of their lifetime will take constantly from the state and contribute nothing back at all. We all of us have a duty as citizens to keep the essential services functioning.

BeanJuice Mon 28-Jan-13 18:03:18

Maggie I'm aware of that - just pointing out that that's why it's like that

Salbertina Mon 28-Jan-13 18:29:33

Lm - agree we will have a duty, benefits not a right etc etc. Absolutely!!

However,for sentimental reasons in the case of the media and blatant electioneering in the Gov.'s case, pensioners seem to be the one group exempted!! Few if any of them alive now fought in any blooming war, they benefitted more than any other generation before or since from house price rises and a generous welfare state.

We and our kids meanwhile are faced with negative equity, university fees and a ridiculous struggle to afford property and yet were the ones squeezed the most.

Mandy2003 Mon 28-Jan-13 18:52:33

From my local council's published proposals to meet the CTB shortfall and find ways of extracting money from those who can least afford it is this phrase:

"Set a minimum income level for the selfemployed." (sic)

I cannot find out in any council info what this means. I am self employed but not yet earning enough to pay income tax. I'm certain this will affect me (although my income going up by £32 per week was enough to get 99% of my CTB taken away).

Does anyone know what they mean, and why they've thought it up?

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 19:05:53

"theres FUCK all i can do about it"

Not true, luckily! We elected these people in (well not me personally and I doubt you did!) and we can elect them out.

We can encourage people to vote. We can campaign to get them out.
I'm not affiliated to any political party (usually vote the same way but not actually a member) but I will do what I can to campaign against the Tories at the next election.

They've got to go!

Salbertina Mon 28-Jan-13 19:11:54

Sadly i feel similar cuts would have to
happen whoever was in power and no party has the guts to include pensioners in the mix

MoodyDidIt Mon 28-Jan-13 19:20:14

i feel impotent though my one vote won't matter. but having said that - i WILL be voting next time and i WILL be voting these cunts out

but sadly i believe that whoever gets voted in will still fuck over the poor

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 19:29:13

"but sadly i believe that whoever gets voted in will still fuck over the poor"

Possibly, but this lot are fucking over the poor much more than the last lot, and much quicker. They are systematically destroying the welfare state for a start.

"i feel impotent though" I know what you mean! But thinking of this quote cheers me up sometimes:

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has" (Margaret Mead).

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 19:31:31

"Sadly i feel similar cuts would have to happen whoever was in power"

Salbertina that's a myth. Actually many of these "cuts" won't even save much money if any. Many of them will actually cost society money if you take into account the increased social costs of cuts.

The driving force behind them is ideological, not money saving.

There is plenty of choice in which cuts, how fast and how many.

Latara Mon 28-Jan-13 19:37:56

YANBU, i'm really scared about how to pay all my bills now.

HappyMummyOfOne Mon 28-Jan-13 19:43:26

Everybody should contribute, millions have to pay it in full so why should others be exempt? It pays for services that everybody uses so is an important bill.

Its another step towards ensuring work pays rather than having people actually having a higher household income than somebody who works.

Whoever is in charge would have had to make cuts, we cant keep handing money over when there is little left to give out.

Mandy2003, its likely they will base SE as earning min wage per hour for those that make little money in being SE. I recall reading something re WTC changes to this effect but that may have changed with UC coming in. Lots went SE so as to avoid signing on and to get WTC so they are getting strict.

aufaniae Mon 28-Jan-13 19:47:47

Yes, everyone should contribute over the course of their lifetime (assuming they are able).

But making people pay from out-of-work benefits is simply another benefits cut.

Surely you can see that doesn't make sense?

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 19:56:22

It reminds me of the poll tax all over again. sad

Harriet35 Mon 28-Jan-13 19:59:24

People should be more pissed off at their local council for charging so much in return for so little.

HappyMummyOfOne Mon 28-Jan-13 20:17:19

Harriet, i actually think its great value for money. It funds education, police, fire, social services, refuge etc. Education alone to do privately costs thousands.

If you add up everything provided, its worth the full amount yet people are moaning that they may have to make a small contribution. Given that most wont be working if getting free council tax at present, its actually the state the state that will effectively be paying the contribution anyway.

I dont recall much re poll tax but from reading it seemed a much fairer system. The value of a house is a daft measure of council tax, a set amount per adult is much fairer and more in proportion with services etc used.

holidaysarenice Mon 28-Jan-13 21:25:20

Does anyone know what will happen to a student house? For example three students all in full time education are exempt currently?

Or a dp and a student who wud currently get a student exempt?

holidaysarenice Mon 28-Jan-13 21:32:23

Does anyone know what will happen to a student house? For example three students all in full time education are exempt currently?

Or a dp and a student who wud currently get a student exempt?

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 21:47:01

It all depends on your individual council holidaysarenice.

If you look up your council's website, you may find the information you are looking for.

HappyMummyOfOne It's not that people begrudge paying for the sake of it, but there are a number of people who simply cannot afford to pay in their circumstances. As I explained earlier, this will leave some people without enough money to feed themselves.

Poll tax was introduced in 1988 in Scotland. It was deemed to be a fairer way to fund councils, because everyone, regardless of their circs had to pay some or all of it, a lot a bit like this new council tax support. 38 million people were to pay poll tax as opposed to 14 million who had previously been paying rates.
Admin costs shot up as they will do this time too and there was widespread non payment. The consequences for non payment were fines, court action etc.
By the beginning of 1990, there were widespread riots, shops and businesses were trashed, fires were started, the streets were awash with angry people from all walks of life, families, pensioners, mothers with pushchairs.
It went on for at least 4 or 5 hours.
The prime minister stood down. The new prime minister abandoned the poll tax in 1990.

Someone who was there at the time said ' The government miscalculated because they thought poor people didn't have a voice.'

This government are repeating the same mistakes. sad

JakeBullet Mon 28-Jan-13 22:00:00

There will be widespread non payment this time too....if it comes to a straight choice between paying a council tax contribution and feeding your family then most people will raise two fingers to the council. The sums are likely to be too small to make it cost effective to pursue recovery....and council services will suffer.

Darkesteyes Mon 28-Jan-13 22:10:37
CaptainNancy Mon 28-Jan-13 22:25:02

I'm not sure why people think child maintenance shouldn't count as income- people not in receipt of maintenance still have to fund their children from their income, which is taxed, NI'd etc, seems like an odd expectation. (I do realise that plenty of people receive paltry sums in maintenance, but actually some people's salary is pretty meagre!).

lucille 190pcm? shock is this London? That's a stonking bill (or is your home enormous?)

Harriet were you even alive in the 70s? hmm Have you ever been anywhere near a local council? Local government has changed radically over the last 5 years, even more so if you look at the last 15 years. Most council workers are fairly low-paid women, many part-time, and their pensions are far from gold-plated. There have also been pension reforms in the last 12 months, and people in LGPSs are paying in more, receiving less- do you want them to receive no pensions? Increase the burden on the state even further? hmm

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 22:32:20

the money is spent on the child,well mine is anyway

what if this is taken into account,worked out on that and your ex stops paying

not only will you have to fight the ex for the maintenance back but also make a new claim etc

some of us have to chase or prey the maintanance arrives,sometimes it does not

its taken me 5 yrs to get a payment and only 6months back pay,paid back at £5 a week on top of the normal

not always as easy as people imagine

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 22:34:11

Didn't child maintenance used to count in the calculation of other benefits? And what happened there? I seem to remember it didn't turn out very well IIRC.

Same thing tbh, again the powers that be should have learnt from past mistakes but are not learning and are simply repeating past mistakes again, almost exactly the same mistakes, just different labels.

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 22:37:53

I'm interested to know how the child maintenance being included in the calculations for council tax support will work tbh.

Will parents have to declare every time they receive a payment of child maintenance? Will parents have to make a declaration at intervals which determines how much council tax they pay in future payments? Or will the council make a prediction of how much child maintenance a parent will receive based on past records?

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 22:38:34

yes it did,you got a disregard (think it was £10 or 15 a week) i dint get it then so not totally sure

last few years they dont count it, as maintenance can be very patchy so cant really be relied on in calculations

thekidsrule Mon 28-Jan-13 22:41:54

thats what im wondering

i was under the impression it was supposed to be soley for the child,not to pay council tax but hey ho

the same as somebody said on another thread that the disabled could spend their dla on the bedroom tax,but some mentioned that is not what dla is meant for

AudrinaAdare Mon 28-Jan-13 22:42:17

shock at Brentwood. I'm near there and there are probably only a handful of people under twenty five at all and they'll be at University and coming home to a six-bed house not liable for bedroom tax.

I doubt that anyone there voted anything but Tory given the way the place looked before the election, so I shouldn't be surprised.

But it's still bloody awful. I'd love for someone to legally challenge this angry

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 22:43:56

IIRC, parents benefits were altered by how much child maintenance they were predicted to receive, then the NRP refused to pay, or paid late or paid a reduced amount and the PWC was plunged into hardship overnight, only no one wanted to help.
Benefits agency couldn't help because the calculations had been done and they couldn't change them because that's what the law said and CSA couldn't help because they couldn't pay the PWC money they hadn't yet received.

To think it wont be long before parents will also have to pay to make use of the new CSA (CMEC I think it's called) where they haven't had to pay before, it's just one thing after another imo.

ihearsounds Mon 28-Jan-13 22:59:00

Many people have no idea of what is coming.

Here, we are loosing student discount and single person discount. People who are genuinely claiming benefits will also have to find extra money for council tax, never mind the rent increases that are being discussed, and no not the spare room thing.. But even the spare room thing, people don't know this includes people who pay full rent.

Ok I hear you say, why does that person have a spare room. If only life was that simple to say the spare room is actually a spare room. Foster carers in between carers, carers bedrooms for people with sn, parents who have 50/50 residency, parents who keep the room of the student who is away during term time.. To mention but a few scenarios.

With regards to child maintenance, you know the amount that csa say you are going to get, well it is based on that amount. Now imagine you are the person who gets nothing because the ex plays the system. If you aren't going through csa (why should you because they are at times shite) you have to produce regular declarations and bank statements, just in the same way as working and having to provide wage slips. Ahh, but cash payments I hear you say, well no because this is seen as non payment and referred to csa. Without making a csa claim, the rp faces financial penalty. For some of you, you may remember similar happening years ago when trying to get is and having to claim csa. The main reason why maintenance was disregarded as income was because of the nrp who played the system to not pay a penny, and it was cheaper in the long run to disregard than to constantly have to reevaluate various claims the rp as making.

CaptainNancy Mon 28-Jan-13 23:02:01

I would have thought the calculation would be based on maintenance received over past 12 months, then reviewed on an annual basis- isn't that how WTC works?
If it's based on past income, at least it's money you've already received...

littlemisssarcastic Mon 28-Jan-13 23:04:59

ihearsounds It sounds like a lose/lose situation for NRP's. sad

Darkesteyes Mon 28-Jan-13 23:10:14

Christ this is all going to be one big unholy mess. I havent even had a letter about this from my local council and checking their website they dont make it clear which is probably deliberate.

CaptainNancy Mon 28-Jan-13 23:13:03

Darkest- I think most councils haven't actually decided the details yet- their budgets haven't been set finally for the next financial year.
Ours just had a 'consultation' and are making announcements presently...

AudrinaAdare Mon 28-Jan-13 23:17:24

Our council have decreed that only working people, not just people of working age, will bear the brunt.

Most people who are working in my town are on very low wages. It will be extremely divisive.

ihearsounds Mon 28-Jan-13 23:31:20

It wont be like wtc, because hb wants a change a circumstance to be notified immediately, whereas wtc you have a couple of grand buffer. With hb, I do overtime this month, which brings in extra wage, I have to notify hb, if I don't I face them screwing me financially. Doesn't matter actually if its wages or increase of wtc, it's a change of circumstance. Doesn't matter if next month my hours drop a lot and at the end of the tax year my wages balances out to make up for the extra this month.

It's also a loose/loose for rp's with 50/50 care. It's a loose/loose situation for a lot of people. The only way for things to change very quickly is for the person who thought of this fucking (sorry for swearing) ridiculous fucked up idea to sober up/get to rehab/have a lobotomy/add as appropriate.. And this is just for the council tax changes, never mind all the other changes that are coming in to basically screw people who cannot afford someone to manipulate their finances.

Darkesteyes Mon 28-Jan-13 23:35:51

With us i am of working age but DH is over 60 so fuck knows how they are going to decide with us because we dont fit into one neat little box.

Darkesteyes Mon 28-Jan-13 23:38:42

@Audrina as long as they know to direct their resentment where it belongs, at the people who thought up this ridiculous scheme not at the people on the rung of the ladder just below them.

AudrinaAdare Mon 28-Jan-13 23:44:27

Darkest yes, seems to me that individual councils are coming up with whatever suits their own demographic and that it is ideologically driven.

DH is self-employed (until put on Workfare for having the temerity to not earn enough in a recession) and I am a carer so we are both of working age. God knows how they are going to work it out for couples. Presumably you pay even if just one of you is under 65...

AudrinaAdare Mon 28-Jan-13 23:49:19

Sorry, misread. I doubt that would happen although it would be nice. I remember Dave posing with Asda workers and slating scroungers even though the strivers needed tax credits and childcare help in order to live. They have been coming for the low-paid for a while but measures like this will mean they will fail to place the blame where it should be sad

P.S Whatever happened to Frothers? I was active on the threads last year and we got a few things done IIRC.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 29-Jan-13 00:52:57

I hear,

The spare room charges are not applicable to those who do not recive HB so people who pay there own full rent will be exempt from it.

Sorry to jump in with that on a thread about CT

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 07:28:52

For others needs restarting I think.....this scummy crowd in Govt care about nobody but their rich chums. They certainly don't give a stuff about you or me. As for that "Call me Dave" photo where he is posing in a "caring and understanding" manner with his disabled makes me want to vomit. He cares not a hot for the families with disabled children in this country who will lose the services he was able to rely on. Hate the bastard.

Salbertina Tue 29-Jan-13 07:51:43

I disagree that he cares not a jot. Yes he is rich and privileged but this does not mean he cannot have a conscience or care. I have met the man several times and he seems warm and empathic. He's always been a v popular constituency MP. just to add, i didn't and wouldn't vote for him as I'm not a Tory. But I do respect him. Any PM now wd have tough calls to make- ever growing and competing demands on a limited budget. Something has to give.

CloudsAndTrees Tue 29-Jan-13 07:57:55

Many services for disabled children are paid for out of council tax. Isn't it quite contradictory to say that people shouldn't have to pay council tax at the same time as it is apparent that services are struggling so much.

If we want good services for society, they have to be paid for by society. That means everyone.

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 08:11:17

I agree with that but we also have to balance this with ability to pay. I gind it abhorrent that the poorest in society still pay a substantially higher percentage of their income for these services than those who are rich.
This whole issue has been badly thought out. Every council seems to be doing something different. Oir council is asking for a minimum of 15% contribution. ...fair enough. Its means tested but nowhere is there any indication of what is included/excluded for these purposes. So will I face a higher rate as I get Carers Allowance? Are they including child payments from absent parents which the primary parent might or might not get? Fact is even they dont know.

And Dave is a politician through and through. see what he wants you to see face to face. I wouldnt trust many politicians any further than I could throw them. Bunch of self serving bastards most of matter what their political persuasionangry .

BeanJuice Tue 29-Jan-13 08:15:04

salbertina some people unfortunately have an inbuilt hatred for any politician who has been to private school and is conservative

CloudsAndTrees Tue 29-Jan-13 08:20:27

Council tax is based on the size of property you live in. If the rich live in bigger homes than the poor, then they will be paying more in council tax. I don't think percentage of income is as important as some on here think it is. the actual amount of money coming in is what matters when it comes to councils planning services.

Everyone should contribute, even if in real terms its not a lot.

I see the benefits of paying council tax every time I step out the front door. I really don't think this is a tax we should begrudge paying.

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 09:01:26

Essentially I agree with you clouds, I am currently a Carer but have only one child. It's a bill I will pay ...I will find the money somehow. My biggest worry is for those who will find it a real problem.....the people who might be faced with paying the bill or feeding their family. I know which side they will come down on....and the sums the councils need to recover are small enough that pursuing recovery is not going to be cost effective. All I can see is a real cut in services which many rely on.

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 09:02:44

Beanjuice I reserve my hatred for MOST politicians...,.I don't give a shit where they went to school.....just saying.hmm

theplodder Tue 29-Jan-13 09:02:48

Get used to this sort of thing, people are going to have to learn to stand on their own two feet. The welfare state is unaffordable and is being cut back , and not before time.

JakeBullet Tue 29-Jan-13 09:05:43

Great....I'll be sure to inform my autistic son of that shall I hmm?

cantspel Tue 29-Jan-13 09:07:17

Council tax is not just on the size of the property but also by area as each council sets their own council tax rates and each area gets a different subsidy from the government. i live in west sussex. Our government subsidy is the lowest in the country so our rates are high but west sussex is not an overly rich area. Yes we have affluent areas but we also have our fair share of working poor.

sashh Tue 29-Jan-13 14:07:08

The spare room charges are not applicable to those who do not recive HB so people who pay there own full rent will be exempt from it.

But those of us who get partial HB will have to pay up.

Council tax is based on the size of property you live in. If the rich live in bigger homes than the poor, then they will be paying more in council tax.

No it's not, it's based on the value of your property in 198something.

Rates were paid on property size.

I went from having a £120 rates bill to a poll tax of £2000, my income was about £4000.

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 29-Jan-13 14:24:43


That's exactly why I said only those who recive HB are applicable for the new room rules in response to a pp who stated that even those who pay full rent will have an additional room charge added to the rent.

Its a shite rule and I disagree compleatly with how its being done but scaremongering is not warrented.

holidaysarenice Tue 29-Jan-13 16:26:38

Do the new council tax rules also affect Scotland?

littlemisssarcastic Tue 29-Jan-13 17:38:13
CloudsAndTrees Tue 29-Jan-13 17:57:37

I don't know if other councils do things differently, but ours charges council tax based on the size of the property when you moved into it. They told me that when I asked for a reevaluation after finding out that the people on the other side of the semi we live in were paying less than us.

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