in thinking that mumsnetters don't like men very much?(232 Posts)
I'm new to mumsnet and thought it would be a great place for positive mutual support, but I'm aghast at how many 'I've lost my man so let's encourage some other poor woman to ditch hers' posters there are here. People are not perfect, men or women, so why is everything the man's fault? (I am a mum by the way, in case you were wondering...)
Nah, YABU! I've been Mumsnettig for about 1yr now and it really depends on what forum you post on. Lots of very supportive people on here; just depends how you pitch your post and where you look.
I love men! just not the twatty arsey ones.
No, some Mumsnetters clearly don't like men very much and they make it very clear.
But actually I think they're fairly few and far between.
At times MN can seem a bit biased, but often you'll see people being pulled up on it.
I think the advice to LTB is given out very sparingly actually. I have been amazed at how much shite behaviour is put up with and normalised from male partners.
I'm glad my DH is a goodun, and I feel very sorry for the others who are putting up with arseholes.
'I'm new to mumsnet'
So you're in a well-informed position to make that judgement then!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
What a load of rubbish. Go and make yourself a cup of tea and have one of these to go with it
Ha ha ha ha ha ha.... ad nauseum.
Read around the boards first before you make such a stupid comment.
We see a bad relationship.
We call a bad relationship.
That's how we roll.
I dont think ALL women on Mumsnet are Men haters.
BUT there is a lot of bitter Women on here who do hate Men.
You will find though that men bashing is not common place on Mumsnet and People will speak up if it is seen happening.
So......someone posts about a twattish idiot who is making their lives a misery.
You think they should roll over and accept this? That the best advice is for people to say 'ah well, nobody's perfect' and move on.
Haha, good one!!!!!!
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
I am a man and I am filled with self-loathing.
I have tried to leave myself on numerous occasions.
Don't worry love just read as many boards as you can-baby names is quite gentle,you are better on chat than on AIBU and any of the Health boards is fine.Stay away from Relationships unless you have a problem in which case LTB and come and tell us all about it
I love MN and I love all the men in my life-ds,dssx2,ds-i-l and most of all dh but some men are bastards and some women are bitches that's life.
The reason I am sometimes found on Relationship threads urging posters to ditch their abusive men is that I do like men- decent, upright, kindly, grown-up men, men who pull their weight, men who are proud to make life easier for the people around them. I was brought up by one, I am married to one, I know the world is full of them!
And that is precisely why it breaks my heart to see a woman tied to some mean, abusive pretence of a man because she doesn't realise that they are in a minority and she can do so much better.
I think you're wrong that people here dislike men. But I do think there are double standards sometimes, from a minority. For example: I've never seen anyone ask a woman whose husband has had an affair if she's let herself go or isn't doing her fair share of the chores, but I've seen people asking men who've been cheated on things like that.
Interesting nn by the way-I could change mine to examiner35-the number of years I did the job befor online marking drove me into retirement .
Haha. Oh I'm going to enjoy this one
Nope, another one who loves really good, honest, hard working, kind, gorgeous, manly men. What I don't understand is why any woman would put up with a shit one just to not be alone.
Should anything terrible happen to DH and I end up alone, I would rather stay that way then put up with anyone inferior. Unfortunately, far too few woman realise that the reason so many woman have a good husband/partner is not because they were lucky, it's that they dumped crap blokes years ago so that there were single when the good ones come along.
I read the relationship threads and usually when someone is being encouraged to leave their DP/H I'm not surprised by that, I'm surprised they bothered putting up with a shit like that for years... very few men wake up one day and have gone from being a catch to being a wanker. They've usually been a low level wanker for years, woman with high self respect don't bother giving wankers a second or third date...
That's a load of crap.
I have two sons. I don't dislike them at all. I love them to death.
I have a husband. I don't beat him, or feed him on stale bread and water or anything.
We hate twatty men. As should you.
Very important difference.
Nobody should feel that they have to put up with financial, verbal, physical or sexual abuse. Or controlling behaviour. Or general unending bastardidity.
What's sad is when someone is so used to it, that they don't even know that it's not right or normal.
Ha ha composhat. Op I have no idea what kind of response you were expecting to that. If you don't like the way people on here talk I could suggest some
nice fluffy websites for you to try. And no, I don't hate men. So yes, YABU. X
Astonishingly dim-witted post, OP. Or was your mind blown by reading a few threads in which it was clear the poster and/or commenters actually expected some form of basic equality and mutual respect between men and women, mutual control of family finances, equal shares of domestic responsibilities and childcare subject to external working commitments etc etc?
I like men, there are lots of lovely men out there so why any person should spend their life being ground down by an abusive partner is beyond me.
Abuse happens insidiously and becomes normalised for the victim. Its only when they post, often about some trivial irritation that it becomes clear that that they are in an abusive relationship. If I see that someone is in what looks like an abusive relationship I will say so (male or female).
To be fair to the OP, there are many threads about bad relationships or AIBU threads about bad behaviour from husbands and some responses are very negative without necessarily knowing the full picture.
What a lazy premise for a thread
Can't you think of something a bit more goady than that?
'Lost' their man....???
But if someone comes along who tells you they are being bullied, hectored, insulted, isolated, criticised etc. and asks.... 'is this normal?'.... then I think the only responsible way to answer them is to tell them that they are in an abusive relationship. The gender is of the abuser or the victim is immaterial.
I am not in the habit of keeping a diary of posters and what they post about
FWIW I disagree with the op!
Actually OP your post has pissed me off, I'm married to a nice bloke, a bit grumpier these days I admit and have 3 Sons.
As I said I love men but some of the treatment dished out by the shittier males of the species to women here beggars belief.
I've not read many threads where the twat deserved a second chance for hitting his wife, or abusing her in some other nasty way.
I also love men, I just hate cunts. That's why I tell women that they don't have to put up with abuse (physical, emotional, sexual or financial) because I know that there are men out there who won't treat them that way. I tell women they don't have to put up with being cheated on, lied to, treated badly, disrespect... Because I think men are ace. And women deserve those men instead of the turds they feel like they have to accept.
Welcome to mumsnet, good luck, I hope mners help you see where you are wrong.
Men are people (albeit privileged people in whose interest it is to further the patriarchy, but, you know...).
Twatty and unpleasant and abusive people tend to get a pasting on MN. People tell posters to ditch female friends who take the piss probably as often as they say Ditch the Bastard.
That's a very sweeping generalization isn't it?
I mean mumsnet has thousands of posters. And from reading a few threads you have gleaned that we are all a bunch of man hating bitches?
And "lost their men?"
For one thing, there are actually posters on here who are happily married.
So that's that theory shot done in one.
For another thing, there are amazing posters on here who have left abusive relationships and are living happy lives. They give great strength and support to women in similar situations.
So, I doubt they are bitter that they lost their men.
See that, in one post your little theory has proved to be a load of shit.
I like men, my DH is in fact a wonderful man, but I don't like men who are twats. Or should I like the poor twatty menz in case it hurts their feelings?
Well that was fun... My point was that too often it seems like the FIRST piece of advice is 'get rid', when it should be a bit more 'oh you poor love... let's have some more info, let's try to see this clearly' so the poster is actually HELPED. And I'm surprised I have to spell out that I have nothing but contempt for abusive, manipulative people (men and women) and the agony they put others through...
yes it was fun. Read some more threads and you will maybe understand that you are talking rubbish.
May i direct you to the fluffy, sparkling, hubbies and bubs parenting site that way >>>>>>>>
"People tell posters to ditch female friends who take the piss probably as often as they say Ditch the Bastard."
I think sometimes MN can come across as a bit man-hating but I think that has a lot to do with the sheer volume of threads started by women in bad relationships looking for help. There aren't so many posts asking for advice about good relationships!
It is rather generalising isn't it?
And very blinkered,
And very much missing the point.
And what Cory said and Hecate (as per )
Welcome to Mumsnet, all the same. I do hope you will read a bit further and look a little deeper and see most posters for what they really are.
Can you point me to some threads that demonstrate your point, OP? Because I'm not aware of any.
OP, I can kind of see what you're getting at...and at one time I agree that quite a few threads were very much like that...but not so much now.
Of course you'll always have posters who just jump on and blindly agree with the OP without asking a single question...but that happens on threads of all subjects.
I still think for the most part, there are people who ask questions and then post considered insightful replies.
Sometimes that might mean 'LTB' but other times it won't necessarily.
You feel you have to spell it out
If you read any thread on Relationships you'll find women/men who've been advised clearly by posters with knowledge and insight into what that person is dealing with and what they're going through..
I'm still puzzled as to why the OP feels that it is because Mn commenters have 'lost' their own men (?) that they are advising other women to consider leaving abusive or unhappy relationships.
Then perhaps you should make a point of redressing this imbalance you see, wherever you see it
You know...help people, in your own way before you criticise others
Would anyone like to eat a bun or are you saving yours to throw later?
Would anyone like to eat a bun or are you saving yours to throw later?
Times are hard. I had to nip over the park and wrestle some bread off the ducks.
And how long have you been here to get that impression? Because I've not seen it in 7 years
And yes, you do need to spell it out (although people have been different ideas about what constitutes abuse) because, tbh, you sound like you feel that there are excuses for bad behavior.
Ps, also happily married and I believe that everyone deserves the same.
I for one would be pretty pissed off with someone who responded to a genuine problem with just ' oh you poor love' tbh
I predict this thread will rattle on for about 12 pages then get deleted.
I'd still quite like to see these
mythical man haters named and shamed.
I love men.
Couldn't eat a whole one though...
What a silly twatty OP, I adore men-especially the 2 I have, cunts however (of either sex) I loathe.
Can't think of any threads I've seen which are even similar to what you describe so YABU.
No excuses, in the sense of justifications, for bad behaviour at all (including calling people names). I do tend to look for information and reasons though, to try to understand a situation before recommending what to do. Reasons do not equal excuses.
Just read the thread you were referring to OP and I think, in that case, the advice to leave him is entirely justified. The OP from that thread probably came on here to confirm what she already knows.
I've lost my man so let's encourage some other poor woman to ditch hers
Thank you for speaking up op for us lost men. It happened to me, Iwas lost on a Tube train.
She got off at Rayners Lane. I had to spend six months living in the lost property box in a London Transport Office. Then they put me in an auction where I failed to make my reserve price.
It wasn't fun I can tell you
Hmmm...I like people, including men, very much...but I have no time for abusive, selfish, diminishing, misogynist arseholes. Is that ok?
The fact is...lots of women in our society accept utterly shite behaviour from men, because they have been led to think that being treated like something the cat sicked up, is part of the ups and downs you get in a relationship.
One of the great things about mumsnet it the refusal of some posters to be passive in the face of what we have come to recognise as domestic abuse.
Thank fuck for that.
Oh and OP - I am happily married. To a man!!!
Are you happily married/partnered yourself, OP? - I don't mean to pry or be rude, you don't have to answer it, - it's just that your own situation, what you 'put up with' endure or alternatively perhaps your partnership is perfect - these things could greatly influence how you read and interpret someone else's situation.
All anyone does here, I think, is give the benefit of their own (sometimes very painful) experience.
Poor ComposHat she never bothered to reclaim you?
I think you might need to spend more time on MN before making such sweeping judgments.
I've never seen (apart from in jokes) people willy nilly advising women to leave their partners/husbands - posters would normally only advise if there is abuse, or (from what the poster has said) that their partner poses a threat to the poster or their children.
An interesting concept. Those of us who chose to end a toxic and miserable relationship are categorised as those who 'lost their man' and henceforth hate all men?
I like nice, witty, thoughtful people who don't treat me like I am shit on their shoe. The former I welcome into my life, the latter will find themselves 'lost' whether they be male or female.
What is going on in your life I wonder that you are so keen to look at abusive relationships in this way??
No the depot was at Baker Street.
What you have to understand is that it is extremely rare (but not unheard of, I will admit) to have anyone post on AIBU or Relationships when things are going well.
They will more likely post when things are going badly and they need advice, and over the course of a thread things can come out that are far more meaningful that the OP suggests. I remember one thread that started out being about something innocuous like an OP's husband not helping with the baby and it turned out that she was actually being horrible abused in many ways.
There are some posters who will always says leave the bastard if he isnt perfect in every single way, but they are very few. Most of us will ask questions and give advice based on what the OP wants. If she wants to keep trying or if she is starting to think that the marriage is over is usually fairly obvious from her post and the advice is tailored towards that. A lot of the posts on relationships in particular are posted when the last straw has just broken the camels back and she has had enough.
I tend to read threads and feel sad that there appear to be lots of women who live with useless, lazy or manipulative men and accept it or think its normal.
The 'my DP/dh ignores my birthday, shouts at me, and tells me I am not allowed to do x y or z. Typical man' posts make me want to lie down in a dark room.
I love men. My dh is fab. My ds1 is too.
Saying we should put up with crappy men is selling most men horribly short.
And can I just applaud Hec for 'bastardidity'
When I post giving advice- any advice, I tend to work on the basic assumption that the poster is more or less telling the truth: my posts need to be read with the caveat "assuming that this information is accurate, this is my advice". I suspect the same goes for a lot of posters.
Of course, we recognise that any OP could potentially be a bundle of lies: the poster who asks for advice on her son's nursery might not even have a son of nursery age, the poster who complains about her boss might have been unemployed since 1986. That goes without saying.
But assuming that the relationship posts I have replied to are factually correct, then I don't see that I really need to hear more sides: a relationship which involves the regular threat of physical violence or denying one partner basic access to money is not a relationship that is likely to be doing anyone any good. And if it turned out that the OP was behaving equally badly in some other respect, then I'd say the relationship was even less viable.
I am a man
I LOVE it here, LOVE IT
There are a lot of double standards on MN
And a lack of realisation that it is near impossible to understand a long-term relationships from a few line winge bashed out after a row with one's other half.
Sometimes men get a bit of a rough deal from that yes. However, you could try to redress the balance (and hope you don't get shot down for defending someone whose side of the story you havn't heard )
Op - would you prefer it if, say someone posted about how their husband was always putting them down and humiliating them in front of friends and family, beating them, not involving themselves at all in looking after the home or DCs that all of MN just went
"congrats! You've found yourself a MAN! Now don't you dare upset him. Make sure you be extra nice and spend the rest of your life with him".
Get your head out of your ass
That is a very good point Bogeyface.
By the time a poster is roused enough to bother typing it all out on a forum like mumsnet, seeking advice or reassurance, you can bet your last tenner that things will have been going rather badly in their relationship for a while.
No-one bothers to appeal to bunch of strangers about their most personal business unless they have got to the point where they NEED help. I say that speaking from my own personal experience too.
A poster may post that her dh is lazy round the house for example, and it is getting to her...but probe further and more and more of the things that are making her unhappy in her relationship will come leaking out, and usually none of it is good.
These things will build up a picture that we will opinionate on.
No-one here has an invested interest in seeing a good relationship broken up for their own satisfaction. That's a very childish thing to think.
Oooh, we've been told.
FYI I have been married to a very difficult man for 23 years and will almost certainly leave him in a few months time. There has been no physical abuse and where he has overstepped the mark verbally I am confident and articulate enough to point out exactly where he is being an idiot. This is how I have survived - by analysing and 'using my words'. It has been one way to survive and stay a happy person. If someone had come along and actively encouraged me to throw in the towel at my low moments I would have done, with catastrophic results, and this is why some of the 'shoot-from-the-hip' posters scare me. As it is I get to end it when it suits me best.
I think you're being a bit silly.
'Positive mutual support' doesn't mean stroking someone's hand and sending them back to their life, it means presenting strategies and potential solutions and listening, and yes - definitely - speaking out when someone has 'normalised' something that is not normal.
There was a thread a few days ago when someone's P had 'surprised' her by saying he didn't want her to go back to work. First page was very supportive - why, have you had a proper discussion or did you fight, some of his points sound relevant etc. After a few more posts it became clear the OP was in a pretty bad situation - she was a SAHM, he saw family money as his, not theirs, he controlled every aspect of their home life - and the responses changed somewhat. As they should have. It was incredibly supportive.
Also 'I've lost my man so let's encourage others' - you clearly did mean to be rude with that one, yeah?
Most OPs that post about unhappy marriages want to know one thing: "what is normal in relationships, what can one expect from a good decent viable relationship?" And a chorus of Mumsnetters come back to reply:
you can expect partners who treat each other as equals and respect each other equally
you can expect an absence of physical violence
you can expect an absence of fear of the other partner
you can expect never to be humiliated or denigrated in public by your partner
you can expect not to have to listen to violent or abusive language
you can expect your partner not to put you down in front of your children
you can expect never to need to fear for the safety of your children from your partner
you can expect that your partner will pull his/her weight and want to do his/her best for the family
you can expect to feel cherished and supported when you are low or unwell
you can expect to feel safe from betrayal or unfaithfulness
you can expect an equal say in questions that affect the family finances/lifestyle/parenting etc
you can expect an equal amount of leisure time and equal freedom to choose your friends and hobbies
you can expect equal access to money/everyday comforts etc
This is what millions of women have and there is absolutely no reason you should put up with less.
No one disputes that there are "twats" and "cunts" out there but the reason why I agree with the man hating comment is that there seems to be no discrimination in the application of these labels.
Recently a MNetter posted how her normally considerate and caring DP blew up and verbally abused her. The guy clearly acted out of character. My advice was to find out if he had problems at work. Maybe he/ they had financial problems that he wasn't sharing with her.
Then the Sisterhood of Dump the Bastard arrived en masse. Forget that the guy was acting out of character. Suddenly this guy was exactly like the abusive/selfish twat/cunt that was their ex.
I tend to read threads and feel sad that there appear to be lots of women who live with useless, lazy or manipulative men and accept it or think its normal.
yy - very much so. It is depressing and frustrating.
i lost - bet myself the OP would leave it an hour before they came back to goad
You survived 23 years by putting up with him, arguing back or not, he is still difficult isnt he? So your 23 years have changed nothing.
Perhaps if someone had told you 20 years ago that you didnt have to put up with that shit and that you had the right to leave and find someone who made you happy then you wouldnt have wasted all those years. Perhaps the results would not have been catastrophic.
How can you be so sure they would have been anyway?
Oh and "surviving" is not a marriage, it is a long slow death.
Just think OP - you could have spent 23 years with a man who wasn't difficult at all. A man who was kind and respectful, who cherished you and treated you well.
You chose not to.
Hardly our fault.
examiner what you seem to be saying is that everyone should stick out a shit/borderline abusive marriage because I did. Anyone who leaves an unhappy marriage without putting themselves through two decades of misery is a flake.
What would the catastrophic results have been?
Have your RL friends encouraged you to put up with 23 years of a difficult marriage?
Would a few more robust MN threads have made you change your mind?
I agree - congratulations on 'surviving' your marriage.
I prefer to be proud of and enjoy mine.
totally I agree that there is projection sometimes but in the main it is an urge to protect other posters from potentially going down the same road.
That is really sad to me.
I have spent 23 years with an amazing man. I can't imagine how awful to look back on 23 years of enduring a relationship. Those years are the prime years of our adulthood. How awful.
Can I ask because I don't understand, why was enduring 23 years of unhappiness a good thing?
And you say that if MN had told you to leave then you would have done, so that says to me that all you needed to end your marriage was support from others not because you actually wanted it to work.
I agree, its very sad to have endured a marriage. 23 years of your life, wasted. The catastrophe is that you haven't left sooner. Mners would have helped you see that.
I knew I didn't have to stick it out, it was my choice to do so, that is my point. And since when is surviving anything a long slow death??? And the years have been by no means wasted, nor for the most part have they been unhappy.
You just keep telling yourself that OP. That's fine and up to you.
Fortunately, there are some here who expect a lot more from life...and get it.
Do you have children, OP? Would you be proud if your example encouraged a daughter of yours to choose a difficult man and put up with him for 23 years? Would you be proud if a son of yours thought it was ok to be that difficult husband, because his mum obviously thought that was acceptable in men?
Why are you leaving him if you are not unhappy?
But, but..why is that good enough.
Would you say to your child 'I hope you meet someone and live a life that isn't too bad and or the most part not unhappy'
We get one shot. Why settle for enduring something that is a matter of choice?
Oh goodness. Why well done?
I am trying to understand why settling for not too miserable is a good idea. That's all
Yes indeed...would you say to your daughter "I hope you spend 23 years surviving a difficult man by using your words when he verbally oversteps the mark"
Of course you wouldn't.
You know what this thread is? It's an appeal for like minded women to come forward and say yes, I have crappy husband too, and it's all perfectly normal. We shouldn't expect anything else.
Then you'd have the confort of safety in numbers, while you all commiserate how difficult your relationships are...but that's men for you!
Well OP, as I have already said...I like men very much, and have regard enough for them to NOT expect to have to survive my relationship. I expect men to treat me well and behave appropriately.
It is YOU who has low expectations of men, and YOU who looks down on them.
Is there anything wrong in pointing out that how we live our lives affects our children and the choices they make?
I would be devastated if my son thought he was not bound to the highest standards as a future husband and father.
I would be devastated if my daughter thought she was obliged to put up with unhappiness or abuse because of any example of mine.
There was a very sad post on the Relationships board today where someone is going through a horrible marriage, enduring some really nasty treatment, kids upset etc and, when they asked their mum for help were told.... 'you have to stay with him for the sake of the kids'.
Women have had centuries of being told to 'try harder', 'make a go of it', 'stick it out', 'stay with him for the kids', 'don't split up the family', 'be a better wife', 'appeal to his better nature' ..... often from a 'I did it, why can't you?' perspective. So destructive. So many lives wasted.
Hope that's not where you're coming from OP...
Well done what?
Have we all prove your point ?
whatever the hell that is, anyway
I would hate to say I'd 'survived' the last 16 odd years with my DH.
Both our sets of parents have had 40+ years together, and I don't think any of them would describe themselves as having 'survived' that.
The unhappiness came from my daughter having leukaemia - until then everything was great. Catastrophes can change you, and we changed in different ways, but we - both - survived by sticking together and not baling when one or the other was very, very down. That meant our other children still had a home even if their sister wasn't in it. So yes I am proud to be able to point out to my children that even when shit happens you can work on it and come through it. I'll be leaving him because sadly it has now run its course.
Children get their models of relationships from watching their parents. It's much better for them to see a healthy, functional relationship between a parent and step parent than see a disfunctional model.
Has anyone else begin to think that maybe...
This is bizarre.
I don't even know if the OP knows what point she's trying to make.
Cogito - so true. For such a long time women have been raised to believe they must be passive, nurturing, servile, selfless, supportive and enduring in their relationships for everyone else's sakes but their own.
I'm very sorry about your DD. That kind of stress can cause any relationship to breakdown. And obviously it's not about leaving at the first sign of problems. Sometimes it takes one person spelling out how serious the problems are and what will inevitably happen if things don't change for the other person to change their behaviour.
Sorry to hear about your daughter OP, but that's a very specific set of circumstances there. That's why it's best not to drip feed info.
I'm sorry for your loss OP but I think you're now drip-feeding and goading, actually.
o all is clear now. You have spent a long time in an unhappy marriage and you want validation for that choice.
I too am sorry to hear about your daughter. That's really tough.
I am still going to say that not putting up with being treated like crap and encouraging other women not to either, does not make me a man hater who gets my kicks from slating perfectly good relationships for my own ends. That's nonsense.
That's quite a unique situation though, - presumably you both knew it was over but kept the family together for some sense or normality for your children whilst in a bad situation?
That doesn't mean that other women should be encouraged to endure a bad relationship just for the sake of, erm, endurance (?)
TBH if you'd posted your last post, I think you probably would have got a lot of support of MN. If you'd posted your post at 1504, you wouldn't. Context is everything. That's why people don't like drip-feeding.
Narked's last post is my point, sorry if as others have said this has come across as dripping or whatever, and I didn't think I would have to share all this just to make the point - next time some poor person posts about their unhappy relationship (leaving aside physical abuse), take the time to dig a little deeper to find out the root causes before urging them to leap overboard. Please?
OP- you have chosen to stay in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the children. That was your choice, I assume you think it's the right one. The idea that your children wouldn't have had a home if their parents didn't live together anymore is rather odd. They wouldn't have a home where they saw both parents everyday, but alot of married couples have situations where one party can go 24 hours without seeing their DCs due to work patterns...
Personally, I wouldn't have made the same choices as you - but then, looking back, were there any warning signs that this wasn't 'a keeper' before you had DCs? In my experience of these threads, the loudest shouts of "leave" (when there's no abuse involved) are before the woman in question doesn't have DCs yet, the view clearly being "get out while it's only you to think about". It's amazing how many woman when they start talking about it also have examples of bad behaviour that predates DCs.
As I said earlier, I tend to be shocked how many woman will give a wanker a second date, let alone marry them then stick it out for decades never being happy and being surprised that he never wakes up as their dream man. There does seem to be a view amongst some woman that any relationship is better than none, even a crap one.
all I will say is that there does seem to be an assumption that errs towards fault in the man
Its tough, I LOVE the fact that abused woman get good support on the REL page, I really do
But the unfortunate side effect is that there are some sad and unhappy people who might err towards the harsh side when a more normal issue is presented
for this reason I would NOT post on REL, but then I am lucky, and alot of these poor women are not so lucky sadly
I lost my man once. He wondered off in the supermarket.
It's ok though I found him in the spirit isle!
< helpful >
Posters call it how they see it. That's the point of asking opinions.
Yes yes we are all man hating lesbians!!
What a daft post.
But most people give all the information in their op. I'd still like to know which threads ylu are referring to, almost every poster disagrees with you, that suggests that you are wrong and seeking validation for your own poor decisions. I'm sorry about your dd, but I agree, you are dripfeeding and making sweeping assumptions, as well as trying to guilt posters into agreeing with you. There is nothing complicated. If you are being treated badly, leave and make yourself happy.
Okay so you're suggesting everyone should do this...
OP :- He just constantly sulks, puts me down, - is impatient and unkind to the children, I feel like I'm just existing not really living - it's been like this for years and it's making us all miserable.
Response: - Poor you OP, but I have to ask before I can comment on what a miserable twat your husband sounds like - are you perhaps enduring this for some other reason? - are you planning on emigrating/ is there illness in the family perhaps?
People can only respond to and comment upon what they are being told by the OP.
I am sorry about your daughter, OP.
But it really was a very provocative title and you could not expect us to get any idea of your unusual situation from that.
The fact is that if you start a thread on a public forum, the onus is on you to supply relevant information, it is not on on the other posters to guess things that your OP does not say.
The threads encouraging posters to leave their husbands are based on the information given by the OP and that information is the OPs responsibility. If posters are given mis-leading information, that does not make them into man-hating harpies.
If I post that dh uses abusive language but omit extenuating circumstances (e.g. Tourette's syndrome) and posters respond accordingly, then that is my reponsibility. Posters are adult and have to take responsibility for how they seek advice.
What cory said (again)
And I'm sorry about your daughter too, - sorry that I didn't say it before.
I like men as much as I like women.
As one of the few dads on here (I've been here on and off for 6 years, mainly under another name) I think it is probably quite unfair to say that, in general, mumsnetters "hate" men. There is some hostility towards men, it's true, a lot of it over in the feminist section (but you don't post there if you value your sanity). There is a lot of support for people in difficult relationships.
By their very nature I suppose posters will tend to take the female side, but that isn't always true by any means. I was amused to read a thread the other day where someone said, "To be honest, in a lot of the Relationships threads I'd leave the woman!" I always wonder what would happen if we were to hear the other side of a lot of the stories in AIBU and Relationships. A lot of the DHs come across very badly indeed, but then we don't get to hear their point of view.
I've noticed two types which recur quite often - the woman who thinks her husband is a lot worse than he is ("he didn't put the bins out so I'm going to leave the bastard") and the woman who is obviously in denial about quite how bad her husband is ("he's only hit me twice, he is a nice guy otherwise and a good dad...").
It's quite clear mumsnet posters are randoms on the Internet and not relationship counsellors. They give advice, not counselling.
Sorry for your loss op.
I'm sorry for you loss, OP.
I will say this, though. Yes, even if some people do jump in and give their opinion without "digging" for more info, it's equally unfair on posters to drip feed info. How the hell would anyone even have an inkling of your particular circumstances unless you came out and explained them in the first place.
Deliberately witholding such sensitive information purely so that you have a reason to chastise other posters is a pretty unkind power game, to be honest.
There is some hostility towards men, it's true, a lot of it over in the feminist section (but you don't post there if you value your sanity)
What a load of Boswellox.
Ok, I'll avoid the AIBU and Rel sections from now on, lesson learned! And I would not DARE ever again to say that Mumnetters are anything but intelligent, caring and moderate people!
My husband will never see this thread, but for the record let me say that I said he was 'difficult'. I didn't say he was a wanker or treated me badly or any of the other things some posters have construed this as meaning. Just because he is a man, I find him difficult, we have at times been unhappy and I am ready to move on does not mean my life has been a waste or a lie, my children should be ashamed of me or my husband should be, I don't know, shot or something. Just saying.
OP, I don't think that anyone leaves their OH on the basis of what a load of Internet strangers say. Far from being unsupportive of those in difficult relationships, MN has a Support Thread for Those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships, others that support the adult survivors of such households, support for the bereaved, people TTC, sufferers of miscarriage and MH problems and many threads started by individuals having a hard time (some of which go on for months).
I wonder if you are projecting here. Your comment regarding lost men sounds bitter and by your own admission, you haven't been here very long so I'm wondering why did you make such a huge generalization when your experience of the site is so limited?
Well, if you had posted in Relationships and explained all your circumstances and not included any references to suggest that your husband was physically, verbally or emotionally abusive, then it is quite likely that nobody would have suggested that you should leave him either. You will never know, because you did not choose to do that. Instead you seem to be taking out your angry feelings on people who have nothing to do with the situation. Your title was very hostile and that was before anyone had addressed a word to you.
Op, there's really no reason to be so snidey and aggressive.
Again: care to link to these threads? Because at the moment you are behaving as my 7yo ds does when he doesn't get his own way. I'd like to see some proof behind your wild allegations.
Wow - you have such a lot of anger in you examiner99. Still, after 6 pages of comments, I have no idea what you were hoping to achieve with your original post. Regardless, I hope you now have whatever it was you came for and can leave with some sense of satisfaction or happiness. No? Oh well, I guess it was worth a try. X
I like the nice men that I know and I don't like the nasty men that I know. I apply the same criteria to females
a lot of it over in the feminist section (but you don't post there if you value your sanity).
I post there. I'm a feminist. I don't hate men. I hate people who are sexist and/or misogynistic.
I'm ignoring the comment about the feminism board. That's a whole other thread and I would give them the satisfaction.
"Just because he is a man, I find him difficult"
Ahem. That is a sexist remark, suggesting that YOU are a mumsnetter who doesn't like men very much.
I speak as one of the posters you've been criticising. I shall kindly ignore your shallow patronisation, as I imagine your own choice to put up with a dissatisfying marriage - and to uphold it to your children as an ideal - has made you afraid to consider alternative viewpoints. It would mean admitting you've been wrong for 23 years, and have set your DC for future problems.
Nethuns is that way --->
'Just because he is a man, I find him difficult'
Why is it ok to be a feminist but not a misogynist? Aren't they the flip sides of the same coin?
If a woman has emotional problems then the guy is a twat/cunt for not being supportive. If a guy has emotional problems then you should bail out of that 'emotionally abusive' relationship asap.
Yup, no double standards man hating here.
TotallyBS, start your own thread. This one is busy enough.
All men are difficult, didn't you know?
I think what OP missed is that the posters she complains of believe it's possible for men not to be difficult! But, if she admitted that, she'd have to admit she doesn't like her husband very much ...
TotallyBS, nice to see you're still spouting the BS.
Feminists don't hate men or think themselves superior, misogynists hate women and do. So no. Not even the same currency.
Wondered how long it would be...
Dh has just made flapjacks and looked after me all day because my arthritis is playing up. God, I love that man!
"Why is it ok to be a feminist but not a misogynist? Aren't they the flip sides of the same coin?"
No. The opposite of misogynist is not feminist, but misandrist.
A feminist is someone who wants a fair deal for women. This is totally compatible with liking men, having a high opinion of men and wanting men to be happy and successful in our society.
"If a woman has emotional problems then the guy is a twat/cunt for not being supportive. If a guy has emotional problems then you should bail out of that 'emotionally abusive' relationship asap"
The crux is not the emotional problems but how they manifest themselves. If a woman has emotional problems and takes them out on her partner by beating him up, threatening to kill him or not letting him have any money or friends, then a vast majority of mumsnetters would encourage the man to get away asap.
If a man has emotional problems but still behaves like a decent person, then very few mumsnetters would have a problem with the woman staying and supporting him.
Basically, very few of us like people who behave like shits. Regardless of sex.
I think its always gonna appear that way, I pull people up on it when I see it.
But there are also lots of voices of reason too. I think in a place with lots of mothers who have have experienced relationships, childbirth, marriage. divorce etc will always be a bit grrrr! compared to perhaps if we were all really young.
(I am really young not bitter yet lol)
Why would you go into any group of people and start telling them where you think they are wrong in an inflammatory way and expect to be taken seriously?
Maybe your dh isn't the difficult one....
i think you misread the op's post narked and garlicblocks, it was a list of kind of unrellated things, not 'because he is a man THEREFORE i find him difficult' ... i've lost the plot and the will to live with this stuff
I initially thought that but actually most posters just respect equality of all humans and a good thing too
So Totally would you describe yourself as a misogynist? Go on I dare you.
That statement shows a total lack of understanding of the meaning of the two words
What Cory said.......
I love men, esp my DH, DS and DF!
I do however have total contempt for assholes (male or female) who mentally or physically abuse others.
YellowTullips I love the insult 'asshole', non gender specific and can be applied to everyone, regardless of sex
Funnys: I think that a lot of people posting here are man haters. Therefore I must be a guy eh?
I work in the City where you are measured by how much money you can make for the bank and not whether your plumbing is internal or external. Much of the trading is done by compuiters these days so the stereotypical misogynist public school boy from the 70s and Sun reading Essex boy traders from the 80s have been replaced by geeks and geekettes with masters in maths.
So, as far as I am concerned, feminists are just as boring and irrelevant as those talk who insist on going on about the proletariat and the bourgeoisie.
Wow, and yet you don't understand the difference between feminism and misogyny!
But, let's not feed them. I've got chilli for dinner.
Enjoy your chilli TrampyPants sounds lovely Probably much nicer than the jacket potato I just had...
I love the insult 'asshole', non gender specific and can be applied to everyone, regardless of sex
I like fannybaws for the same reason.
It is Burns Night.
Every time I see this thread in active convos, I just want to post
psalm 59, v2
how does one 'lose' a man?
i've lost bus passes before and the odd key. men i've tended to break up with - can't recall misplacing any.
That's why they're "difficult", SAF. They keep getting lost.
It's always worth looking in the fridge and the microwave, it's surprising what turns up there sometimes.
And I've just started to love DH a little bit more than ever, since he brought the wine in out of the kitchen, so I don't have to get off my tired backside for a few more minutes
christ i just found a man in my sock drawer - i wondered where he'd gotten to. there could be loads tucked away in here
Despite being chronically absent minded and untidy, I never even managed to lose my first boyfriend: he is still there making cups of tea.
I am quite new to MN and was shocked by some of the anti men comments tbh.
Mners don't like abusive wankers, but, as I said earlier, I've never seen "anti men comments" in 7 years.
I have been here bloody years.
I don't recognise the idea that the site is anti-men
Perhaps people see what they want to.
Paggy, yep. Awful lot of projection etc.
There are a few women that don't like men full stop. To these women, men are all twatty, child support dodging, slobbish, selfish, pigs.
I for one am not one of these types of women. And I'm glad.
who are 'these types of women' then sowhat? perhaps you could name a few
I haven't been on here for that long - 6 months, maybe? And I haven't noticed a significant anti-man vibe.
Anti-selfish bastard vibe? Definitely.
I have noticed that there are a few posters who appear to dislike women.
Equally, there are many men who don't like women full stop. Occasionally these men find their way onto mumsnet, where they are sent on their way with a flea in their ear.
I know men like this. I don't know any man-hating women though.
Sonia, yep. Somne posters think that women should put up with an awful lot to hold onto their man.
I agree Sonia.
I think that there are more horrible posts about post menopausal woman than any other group on here. And MILs
And school gate mums.
Which is kind of funny when you think about it.
Certainly some women seem not to realise that they will hopefully be old one day and possibly a MIL too. I suspect they would hope for kinder treatment than they dish out.
(that is not to deny that some mils and old women can be horrible. I am talking about sheer volume of mean postings in the 'old hag touched my baby with her hands! style)
Trampy Ah, well, apparently any man is better than no man.
* Pagwatch* I have noticed some unpleasantness towards older women, and remarked on that, once or twice.
I don't know why older women are considered 'fair game' in that way by people who are generally respectful to every other group in society.
Sonia, exactly. There was a thing on fb about how women can avoid being raped. You know, not drinking, wearing provocative clothing etc... DH was hugely offended by it, and the assumption that men are children who can't control themselves. Ditto this "oh well, he's a man. Just part of being male" attitude that keeps women in shitty relationships.
And yy to the older women attitudes. I love my MIL, she's wonderful. Some threads on here make me very sad, I just hope that ds's future partner and I have a good relationship.
<sticks needles in eyes>
Can someone tell me when it's safe to read MN again?
Probably never. When this thread ends there will be another and another...
I think I'm going to run out of needles..
note the lovely single=bitter cliche in the op too. how lovely.
found out the male bar props in the local pub think i'm a man-hater - it seems being single and happy must mean you hate men i actually asked them about it and they were like well, you said you were happy on your own and weren't looking for a boyfriend. i think the fact i don't flirt with them and hold my own in a conversation rather than simpering coquettishly = rabid man hater in their minds bless them.
weird world! i love men - i'm just fortunate to have had some lovely ones in the past and wouldn't settle for less now.
maybe i should start a thread on all the weird attitudes and assumptions people make about you when you are single and happy in your thirties and all the crazy stuff people say to me.
"you wanna get yourself on t'internet - that's how people do it these days'
'a new job? i bet you meet the man of your dreams - did you know x% of women meet their husbands at work'
'i just can't understand why you are single, all the boys fancied you at school'
the only circumstances under which anti-wankers posts = anti-men posts is if you accept that all men are wankers
can you imagine a more anti-men stance than that?
I think this thread is ending well: it is encouraging more and more of us to think about the wonderful men in our lives (past and present) and the wonderful men we are hoping our ds's will grow into.
Now that would be a bad outcome to any anti-men brigade that might be lurking- but I'm not sure there is one lurking.
SAF I was single (on purpose) for 3 years. People couldn't seem to get their heads around the idea that I might actually like it. Lots of comments asking what catastrophe had happened to make me feel that way, or trying to help me find someone to restore my faith in men. It was totally beyond them to believe that I was actually happy!
Trampy -Now that is a myth - the 'uncontrollable male sexual urge' . The men I know seem to be able to control themselves just fine.
As far as MILs go, I have 3 sons and I share the hope that I will be able to get on well with them (if any one of the ds can drag themselves away from the Xbox long enough to actually form a relationship )
ah yes i recognise the 'what happened to you' line of questioning murder
ermm well i think what happened was i got a bit older, settled down in a dull area of the country and stopped meeting gorgeous, talented, funny and fun young men who made me laugh and go at weak at the knees. i reckon that's what did it. the only fish in the sea being bitter divorcees who want to go on about what a witch their ex wife is really dented my sex drive
I'm new too and agree there are plenty of people here with strident views, not just about men. I find attitudes and opinions here rather refreshing on the whole and don't see it as a site full of man-haters.
Cory, I agree. It'll also piss off the lurking graders/misogynistic. Win, win Imo!
Sonia, same here. I have met rapists, they controlled themselves around other people, the reason they couldn't when alone was because of them. Their choice. Nothing I could have done different.
And wrt ds, he has a crush on catwoman and zooey deschanel. I doubt any woman could ever match up. But, at least he respects and likes women and girls. He was given somegrief by the boys in his class for playing with a girl. He asked them what the difference was and why they were so scared of girls, ending with "at least I know how to talk to other people". He also told our newsagents off for Stocking the sport, etc because it was "not respectful and rude andgirls aren't toys"
I am very proud.
Awwww TrampyPants How old is he?
I am very proud.
Your DS is a credit to you; sounds like you have every right to be proud.
He's nearly 8 I figure it's my job to raise a man who treats women as equals and properly. I also rant a lot
Thank you, that's a lovely thing to say.
I love my DH
I love my DS, who is a lovely boyfriend to his fab girlfriend.
I love my darling stepfather, who has never let's down or hurt me, unlike my father who was a cunt.
I love my BIL and FIL, two decent, happy, honourable men who love me back.
That is who real, decent men are. Anything less and the bastard should be left so you can move on and go for a good-un.
I wish you luck OP, you deserve a good-un now.
Perhaps some Mumsnetters don't. The thing is we aren't a collective hive mind.
Another man here - been on MN for 3 years now. Have to disagree OP - vast majority of MNers are balanced and give good advice. Given that it's a largely female forum, it's not surprising that in general, the support can lean towards the woman. I think that's to be expected but not overtly skewed.
But but but....
.... on some topics there seems to be a small minority that appear to hover 24 hours a day, waiting to pass on a piece of their own bitterness and ill will at any opportunity, no matter whether or not their experiences are relevant to that thread. Because they shout so loudly, they appear more numerous than is really the case. It's the same on any other online forum you go on, whether they be religious, political or whatever special interest group it may be. I guess you'll always get some that want to "rule the school"
I came on MN to get pointers on being a better father and husband and I must say that it's been hugely helpful in that respect. I'll be sticking around for the forseeable. Thanks MNers!
i would say, not having been at all close to my mum, that my most formative relationship was with my grandad. he was honestly wonderful and i would go to his house every day after school and hang out learning card games and drinking sweet milky tea out of cups and saucers and basking in his generous love and patience.
i also had some genuinely lovely boyfriends when i was too young to settle down.
i actually think that those of us who get called man haters and tell people to 'leave the bastard' are the ones who actually have the blessing of having known genuinely fantastic men. the, 'oh he's just being a man', 'they're all the same', 'you have to train him', 'you can't expect him to realise' etc types seem to me to be the ones who have a low opinion of men and perhaps weren't lucky enough to know and be loved by decent men when they were growing up.
but still it's weird that those with a low opinion of men are often the most keen to hang onto a man no matter what
YY saf. Plenty of posters are always saying things like, "this man is treating you badly but there are lots of lovely men out there/this man is doing no housework but that's because he's lazy not 'because he's a man'/yes little boys are sometimes rough but so are little girls, it's a kid thing not a boy thing" etc etc.
Not man hating at all.
swallowed agreed 100% - I can never understand it
Very good point swallowedafly
I agree swallowedafly and said similar earlier in this thread.
I think that those of us who have expectations of good treatment, happy marriages and respectful relationships are the ones who have high regard for men.
Those who normalise and minimise poor behaviour from men are the fundamental 'man haters', as their expections and standards for men are low.
It's ironic really.
seriously though i really do love decent men. i have to admit that i
am was a bit emotionally fragile in some ways because of my mum's issues when i was growing up. there have been men (the first my grandad of course) who have really, really nurtured me and have had this beautifully simplistic kind of love and affection that i've rarely found from women. men can be superbly loyal and reliable. they can be incredibly practical and nurturing in a crisis. they can be incredibly generous lovers who genuinely get a lot of pleasure from giving pleasure.
it is knowing this, having experienced this and having enjoyed the best of men that makes me someone who will happily say leave the bastard - i know having a penis doesn't have to make you a dick. i owe my life to a few key men who took care of me when i was fragile. i know they are capable of love, consideration, caretaking, generosity, consideration, etc etc etc.
when someone is an arsehole it is because they are an arsehole. when someone takes advantage of societal privilege bestowed upon men it's because they're an arsehole - not because they're a man.
Yep. I have arthritis and fibromyalgia. On Thursday my hips and knees swelled up and I haven't been able to stand unaided since. Dh and ds have both taken great care of me, not just because they are wonderful, but because it's the decent things to do. I couldn't imagine having such disdain and disrespect for men that I would be shocked by this, or put up with less because "its the way men are" or feel that I had to endure my marriage.
Man-hating is expecting men to be abusive, neglectful, cruel and unfaithful. And expecting women toput up with it because they can't help it. It's lowering men to the level of impulsive animals. Not expecting themto treat you well.
I think I might have a little crush on compos hat.
<shamelessly cruises thread>
I thought the same, IfNot
I like a man that makes me laugh. I am not allowed to say anything like that though, as it would demolish my reputation as a Man.Hater.
Oh af we all hail you as the queen of the haters of penis-bearers.
Haha. I have had a hell of a lot of stick for it too. Onboard and in my inbox. Lovely innit. < checks locks on DH's ball and chain >
Best keep that under wraps, eh? Wouldn't want to spoil your image!
Well, it's all for the cause...
I'm still waiting for the naming and shaming, the definitive officially sanctioned list of man haters and their misandry laden posts...
Encouraging women to realise that they deserve to be treated with care and respect and not to accept anything less than being treated like an equal partner - is that Man Hating, really ?
What I do see quite a bit of, unfortunately, is women seemingly heavily invested in telling other women to accept being treated like shit by their men.
I know what OP is talking about and it is hard for people not used to MN who come on with a few niggles and doubts about their relationship and someone makes them immediately feel they are abused and downtrodden. But the vast majority of those discussions end up with some kind of conclusion, whether the OP goes off and renews her wedding vows or whether they go and find a shelter somewhere.
I think this is probably the only place where people feel they have the opportunity to tell an abused woman to leave their partner - it has probably saved many lives, of women and of children.
So I would say the good outweighs the bad on the whole.
i like honest, decent men. why should i like any others?
such a lot of men are horrible to their partners and the women are too down-trodden to leave without someone saying 'it's ok, go, he's being horrible'. they need mumsnet.
so, leave the bastard.
@OP you got that right. no wonder most of the population both men and women associate feminism with man hating
I don't know about that, yourname111. I'm a feminist and I've liked a lot of men <tries to breathe out cigarette smoke in a sexy, post-coital way> <makes horrible choking noise instead>
I don't like arseholes. That's fair enough isn't it?
I was much more surprised by how much some mumsnetters don't like other women.
My husband is a man, he's lovely. My DS is scrummy.
a twat U
OP YANBU, I am with you on this one, there are definately a significant number of women who shout 'leave the bastard' at the slightest hint of an imperfect man. They seem to have an over romanticised and idealised view of what a man should be. We are ALL flawed, we are all human, none of us is perfect and no single relationship is perfect. This is not a Holywood movie, this is real life! I say wise up ladies......
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