AIBU To think that ALL women...

(99 Posts)
DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:02:27

Should be able to dress however the hell they like without being accused of having issues, having only gotten a job because of the way they look, being brainwashed, trying to please men, damaging young girls....

I thought the idea of women having rights meant that they could make decisions for themselves, But it seems that instead of men dictating to us, Other women have taken the mens place in laying down the law over what we should and shouldn't wear.

I wouldn't sit here and criticise a woman in a baggy jumper and sweats, I wouldn't tell her she isn't sexy enough, i wouldn't tell her anything. I'd just assume that today, she feels best in her baggy jumper and sweats.

So why, why why can a large portion of todays women not do the same in reverse? Why do you see a woman wearing a tight, low cut dress and think she's got issues? What is the difference between the woman in the 'sexy' dress and the woman in the sweats? They both got up this morning and wore what they felt best in.

Am i missing some unwritten law that says 'Women have rights and choices - Unless they make another woman feel uneasy somehow?'

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:07:57

YANBU at all...I couldn't have put it better myself.

It never fails to amaze me, the hostility and criticism of some women's (usually celebrities) choice of clothing/make-up/cosmetic surgery (or lack of) on MN...and of course other internet sites.

How often do you read people blaming magazines, men and the patriarchy for women having body issues?

Yet, the criticism and abuse comes mostly from other females imo.

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 01:10:19

YANBU at all, its sad some women have to make themselves feel better by critisising others.

Booyhoo Tue 22-Jan-13 01:13:10

totally agree. YANBU at all.

critising other women comes so easy to some women.

SinisterSal Tue 22-Jan-13 01:13:24

Thread about a thread is generally seen as bad form dizzy zebra.
Fwiw the presenter wasn't being criticized about what she wears, society was being criticized for rewarding one and one only mode if dress for one and one only gender. Not a difficult concept

KC225 Tue 22-Jan-13 01:16:24

Ok I have and do continue to judge women who wear leggings. Very few women look good in leggings. Actually, not just women. Rod looked a knob in his 80's leggings, so did Steve Tyler and Max Wall. So, maybe it's just leggings in general

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:16:29

Sadly this is probably a thread about many, many threads....

It might have been inspired by a thread started here today but there are so many women who are willing to 'call stripper' on another woman's choice of clothing.

Sad.

SinisterSal Tue 22-Jan-13 01:21:08

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SinisterSal Tue 22-Jan-13 01:22:34

The choice of words wasn't great bit the phenomenon exists. Its worth talking about.

YANBU.

I sometimes thing that women are women's worst enemy.

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:24:35

Society doesn't reward one and one only mode of dress for one and one only gender...hence why lots of women on TV wear suits.

Booyhoo Tue 22-Jan-13 01:25:21

it's not even just women being criticised, it's little girls too now. apparently too much pink is a crime confused

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:29:36

Advanced search isn't working (again!) but there was a thread a few weeks ago about Helen Flanigan from Coronation Street, that linked to a photo of her with her hair scraped back, wearing a low cut top, thigh high boots and some admittedly unusual lipstick.

And oh my god the comments from some women slagging off her 'saggy boobs' were just fucking awful.

She's naturally big chested...her boobs were not saggy - gravity was simply doing it's job because her boobs are so large.

If men had posted half the comments on that thread they'd immediately be accused of being skewed by false images and breast implants...with a touch of misogyny thrown in for good measure.

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:30:12

*Thread about a thread is generally seen as bad form dizzy zebra.
Fwiw the presenter wasn't being criticized about what she wears, society was being criticized for rewarding one and one only mode if dress for one and one only gender. Not a difficult concept*

TBH, That thread was just the tipping point. I've been increasingly annoyed by comments, usually by women, over the last few months.
It's everywhere and it's bloody infuriating - It's no better than school yard bullying.

I'm sick of seeing women branded a slut, slag, whore, stripper because they dress in revealing clothes. It doesn't effect anybody else so why do people feel the need to make comments?

SinisterSal Tue 22-Jan-13 01:30:40

Really believe that worra? Ok then.
Booyhoo wearing pink is not a crime! But its not innate, something else is driving it. It's worth figuring out why is it happening ans does it matter.

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:32:39

it's not even just women being criticised, it's little girls too now. apparently too much pink is a crime

Oh i haven't even got time for those people. My daughter wears whatever colour she likes. Sometimes she is pink from head to toe. Sometimes she is blue. Sometimes purple. I have no idea why pink is any different to any other colour.

Pink happens to be my favourite colour. I have half of my hair pink at the moment. I have many pink clothes. I bloody love it. I'd laugh at someone who assumed this says anything about my personality, upbringing or anything else. It's just a colour.

CuriousMama Tue 22-Jan-13 01:38:02

YANBU and why the fuck do they care? There's much more to worry/think about than what people wear. If people smell then yes that's not good. But often that is linked to their mental well being. But what they wear is entirely up to them imo.

Of course there's always people's own insecurities and the green eyed monster. Sad really.

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:39:14

Yes I do believe it Sinsiter

Of course there is sexism (sadly) in the fact that old, wrinkled, grey haired men get to read the news and present the weather...unlike most of the young, pretty women etc....and that needs to change.

But for the most part now, I'd say people need to stop blaming 'society' and 'the patriarchy' so often for these issues...and start looking towards the bitchy, catty women who can't wait to claw at other women for how they choose (yes that's right I said it wink ) choose to look.

They are just as much to blame as anyone else for making women feel self conscious.

As I said, advanced search is buggered...but this thread with so many bitchy comments is still available on Google...

FFS and people still mainly blame men and men's magazines

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 01:39:59

Im not that keen on pink but do dress like a TOWIE extra.

I also have a first class degree and have had several academic articles published. I love telling women that and seeing the shock face. It is sad that the judgement usually comes from other women though, who seem to assume that I must be thick as I wear false eyelashes.

everlong Tue 22-Jan-13 01:44:24

Which presenter is the OP on about?

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:47:17

What makes me laugh about the Angelina episode is that theres nothing unusual about her pose. It's a pretty standard pose - That is really exaggerated by how that dress is cut and held to the side. I didn't see what the fuss was about.

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:47:47

Everlong - I'm not talking about a presenter. The other thread was and it pissed me off on top of a lot of other related things.

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:48:52

Does anyone remember the saying, "Dressed like a teacher?"

That was because when I was growing up (during the 70's) no professional person or any particularly brainy person was expected or allowed (in some professions) to dress as they pleased.

Reflecting your personality in your dress sense was a total no-no and those who did, were never viewed as professional or even particularly extremely intelligent.

Thank goodness that prejudice changed...though sadly in 2013 it would seem not completely.

Perhaps the countdown lady should dress in an ankle length brown courdroy skirt....even if she'd rather stick blunt needles in her eyes?

everlong Tue 22-Jan-13 01:50:01

Oh right. I didn't see the other thread, who were they on about?

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 01:51:55

IMO it's fair enough to make fun of the 'pose' as that's something she chose to do...but the slagging off of her 'ugly leg' etc...well all I can say is some women need to look closer to home if they think the media and men's mags are totally to blame for women's body issues.

No doubt the same women handing out the abuse would be the first to start a thread if their DD had been criticised for her looks alone.

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:52:26

The woman off Countdown. It is pretty silly really.

the other thing that annoys me is people moaning about air brushing and photoshop on models in magazines - As though it's completely changed how they look! Do they not think that if the model needed photoshopping to the point she was unrecognisable... she wouldn't be employed in the first place and they would just get a model that actually looks how they want her to look to save the expense of the editing?

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 01:53:50

Worra - No i see no problem thinking a pose is funny. It just made me laugh that everyone seemed to think it was something that no one ever does. Most of them do it - They just don't wear a dress like that at the same time. I don't think it was the best pose she could have done in that dress.

everlong Tue 22-Jan-13 01:54:49

Oh ok. I don't watch countdown so I'm still non the wiser!

I find the whole Angelina hate thing annoying and weird. As a woman myself I think she is beautiful and a bit intriguing. I like her.

Booyhoo Tue 22-Jan-13 01:55:52

" My daughter wears whatever colour she likes. Sometimes she is pink from head to toe. Sometimes she is blue. Sometimes purple. I have no idea why pink is any different to any other colour."

sinistersal this is exactly my point. how many times have you seen a little boy being criticised for wearing too much blue? or too much any colour for that matter?

i have two boys. i tell them to get dressed, they go and put clothes on. the only times i'll comment is if (as my 3 year old regularly does) they come down wearing shorts and a (my) bikini top in january. they have clothes of every colour, including pink and i have never ever thought "that's too much red/blue/green/purple". why should the parents of little girls have to think differently about what their DDs put on to what i think about my Dses. if they want to paint themselves a rainbow who cares? they are children. it doesn't matter if some random adult doesn't like it. it matters that the wearer is comfortable with what they are wearing.

EuroShopperEnergyDrink Tue 22-Jan-13 02:39:38

Who do you think runs the publishing houses which prints these magazines, tells them what to write and what to sell? It's not women.

Women can be the best sexists- but that's a secondary effect of living within a patriarchy. Women putting their own lipstick seal of approval on misogynistic attitudes.

If you think some of us not liking the fact that a woman has to be sexed up, not stylish or well groomed, but sexualised, and that intelligence is not enough on it's own- and we're all nasty sly bitches who don't want anyone to be prettier than us- rather than hating our culture, you're quite frankly stupid.

If I hear one more 'FEMINISM IS ABOUT CHOOSING TO WEAR WHAT YOU WANT YAY CHOICE' comment whilst you're at it, I'm going to slice my eyelids off with rusty razors

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 03:00:39

Euroshopper - I do not agree with you that women have to be sexedup to have a good career. I also dont think wearing clothes that show off my figure, which I have worked damn hard to acheive, means I am sexed up.

However by your logic I am stupid for disagreeing and my opinion is therefore worthless.

I better go bin my diplomas and quit my job hadnt I. Sigh.

YANBU OP, and I agree with Worra's posts. The thread on Helen Flanaghan was so nasty.

The problem is that choices about dress are not made in isolation from the world we live in, so girls and women's choices are influenced by the messages they are given by people around them. Then the choices they make go on to effect the choices of others.

I don't necessarily think that the op is BU but I don't think it's quite that simple. If we don't try to challenge some of the messages accepted in society about women's worth being connected to their sexual attractiveness then nothing will ever change, and that's not the message I want my daughters to grow up with.

discorabbit Tue 22-Jan-13 07:49:31

a man round here wears stripey tights and a rah rah skirt, though to be honest i think he has a few issues

MrsBucketxx Tue 22-Jan-13 07:55:34

YABU op,

Some on here can be really bitchy. Just shows themselves up really.

YANBU, but I give up, I'll carry on wearing what I want, if people want to call me a stripper because I wear something close fitting or a slob because I'm in sweats, that's up to them.

MrsBucketxx Tue 22-Jan-13 08:01:21

YANBU geeesh what wrong with my fat fingers today.

Hmmm. I'm not quite sure where I stand on this one.

On one hand, I agree that women should be able to wear whatever they feel comfortable wearing. On the other hand I think that a lot of our perceptions about what is attractive or looks good (exposed legs, cleavage etc) come from the masculine influence within our society.

MidnightMasquerader Tue 22-Jan-13 08:05:45

I really think a lot of people are missing the point of the other thread, which was maybe a bit badly worded and as a result, people have latched onto the wrong end of the stick...

I don't think the OP was saying the presenter is akin to a stripper due to her clothes choices, and judging her on this basis.

I think she lamenting the fact that women presenters, TV personalities, etc, are often channelled (thorough choice or conditioning, or more likely both) to dress in a way that their make counterparts do not. That women (generally speaking) are judged on their appearance and have to look, um, 'fuckable', in a way that men (generally speaking) do not.

And that this is the rather sad state of affairs. But happy to be corrected if this wasn't what the OP of the other thread meant.

MrsBucketxx Tue 22-Jan-13 08:07:51

Maybe its really from women, not men in the first place?

We have learned over centuries how to attract a man and use it to our advantage.

Do you always dress to attract a man though? Why should women have to dress a certain way in order to gain an advantage?

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy wearing tops that show off my cleavage but the fact is that we only think that is attractive because it is what appeals to men (generally speaking).

everlong for some reason, many women like Jennifer Aniston and seem to hate Angelina. Yes, there was the whole Brad thing, but if the other woman had looked like Jennifer, I don't think the vitriol would have been anywhere near the level Angelina receives. I personally think Angelina is beautiful and she puts her fame and wealth to good use. It is a good example for this thread of how some women treat other women though.

MrsBucketxx Tue 22-Jan-13 08:39:20

Not at all, I dress for me and other wonen mostly,

If it attracts dh then all the better

SigmundFraude Tue 22-Jan-13 08:42:37

'Who do you think runs the publishing houses which prints these magazines, tells them what to write and what to sell? It's not women.'

What? All of them?

'Women can be the best sexists- but that's a secondary effect of living within a patriarchy.'

Naturally. I'm feeling a little bad now for distancing myself from my hyper shallow ex friend. Instead of feeling affronted by her endless digs about my clothes, hair, lack of makeup etc, I should have found a way to let it go because, y'know, it wasn't really her fault.

I mean, she could have just not said those things and been a decent human being, but she had been socialised by the patriarchy to be unpleasant to me, and had absolutely no choice.

Or not.

drizzlecake Tue 22-Jan-13 08:51:53

But it's women who buy the magazines. So they are supporting the bitchfest encouraged by magazines and papers.

But women like to look at fashion and models/stars, to discuss, criticise, look for ideas before they shop for clothes.

Men don't, men want mags on fishing/ cars/ computers/ and any other hobby they have an interest in. Not many men want to look at men's fashion, though some younger ones prob do now, but not to the degree that women do.

So there will always be this problem with women criticising and men not caring.
I bet men ridicule stars who buy what they consider crap cars. It's just not as personal.

PessaryPam Tue 22-Jan-13 08:58:46

YANBU, it seems our sex is happiest putting others of our sex down. I expect it something to do with competing for the best males in evolutionary terms. Whatever, it's fucking tedious.

anewyear Tue 22-Jan-13 09:14:12

Intresting thread.
I wear what IM comfortable in full stop, and dont give a hoot what others think. Men or Women.

aderynlas Tue 22-Jan-13 09:50:23

I think my dd looks lovely whatever she wears, she was going to a party in a local hall last week, leaving just as her brother called in. Well, he was worse than my dad used to be. Do you think thats warm enough dsis, should you wear leggings as well, wont you fall in those heels. He was so funny, did tell her she looked gorgeous, then walked her to the dance, bless him. He came back home and said half way there he had to give her a piggyback because of the snow [big grin]

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Jan-13 10:15:56

you are missing the point of the other thread

and no one on here has ever dressed to attract attiontion of a potential mate? really??

the woman from countdown is very intelligent, she is presenting a day time tv programme yet she often looks like she about to go out for the evening why is there a need for women on tv to do this why do so many then go on to do photo shoots of them in skimpy outfits. this is what is often expected of them and they have to do what they can to keep their jobs this pressure is not put on men. this is the argument not about a young attractive women dressing in skimpy clothes

DizzyZebra You have made my day. YANBU, at all, in the slightest.

ShamyFarrahCooper Tue 22-Jan-13 10:39:57

The Angelina hate is interesting. Brad Pitt is the one who was married, not her, yet Ang is made out to be the scarlet woman.

the woman from countdown is very intelligent, she is presenting a day time tv programme yet she often looks like she about to go out for the evening why is there a need for women on tv to do this why do so many then go on to do photo shoots of them in skimpy outfits. this is what is often expected of them and they have to do what they can to keep their jobs this pressure is not put on men. this is the argument not about a young attractive women dressing in skimpy clothes

Ok, how much do you think she is paid, compared to the male presenter? The woman with the degrees/brains. Do you think she is paid comparatively?

Women end up doing these bloody shoots because THAT is what pays well for them. Men still get paid more, for the same/similar jobs. Men get the prime time presenting jobs, they are almost always the lead presenter - the woman being almost the back up.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Jan-13 10:41:31

feminisim is about women being equal. how many women who are over 50 are still presenting on tv not many, how many women who are overweight with grey hair their youthful looks have fadded still presenting not many yet there are plenty of men.

would it not be better for our society to have men and women on tv no matter what age, class (yes that comes in to it too), size and attractiveness on tv

women being cast aside when they get too old, to big, because they are not dressing up to present adds to the pressure on young women that they need to look a certain way. something is very wrong in our society if we place so much emphasis on how we look but what size we are. the media is still very male dominated women are a real struggle to stay in their jobs and sadly have to use their looks to stay how wrong is that

BupcakesAndCunting Tue 22-Jan-13 10:48:08

Worra, why did you choose to link to my thread, specifically? I thought that the way that AJ stood at the Oscars was pathetic. I don't give a crap about her dress or any other aspect of her appearance, tbh. She just looked ridiculous stood there with her leg poking out like a broke mannequin.

Anyhoo... I absolutely defend the right of any woman, or any man, to wear what the hell they like. But I also reserve the right of others to comment on it if it is featured in the paparazzi press, within reason i.e I don't much like the bitching about women not wearing make-up to go about their daily business and being photographed doing so. However, if you've invited the press to photograph you leaving a bar and you're wearing a dress that, ahem, doesn't shield your asets from glare then yes, you invite comment.

HoneyDragon Tue 22-Jan-13 10:48:54

Never self validate validate how you look

Never present credentials as a way of justifying your appearance.

Always dress for you not others.

Accept that whether you are male or female, old or young it is the right of the non orange to judge you for turning your self that colour voluntarily.

HoneyDragon Tue 22-Jan-13 10:49:38

I appear to have duplicated my validate validate confused

HoneyDragon Tue 22-Jan-13 10:49:50

Eh?

TooMuchRain Tue 22-Jan-13 10:59:48

The name-calling is totally unnecessary but that is something separate from being concerned about the way our society pushes women and girls to making certain 'choices' and that is what was being discussed in the other thread. My DN (aged 3) will tell everyone pink is her favourite colour but she is colour-blind and can't actually pick out a pink from some other colours - it's not 'just a colour'.

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 11:05:18

Who do you think runs the publishing houses which prints these magazines, tells them what to write and what to sell? It's not women.

Who do you think the majority are who buy gossip mags like Heat, Take a Break etc? It's not men.

Bupcakes sorry, I linked to your thread because Advanced search was still buggered so I couldn't get to the Helen Flanigan one.

However, I should have pointed out that my link was to prove how many nasty posts there were from other posters about women's appearance and wasn't aimed at you personally so I apologise.

BupcakesAndCunting Tue 22-Jan-13 11:07:13

Oh ok fair enough!

Although I do join in on the bitching threads (usually about Peter Andre though tbf) so I am not a complete innocent.

Was just wondering why you picked that thread specifically when there are much much worse wink

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 11:09:37

Cos the search is still fucked grin

And FWIW I think her pose was ridiculous too wink

flurp Tue 22-Jan-13 11:23:14

Actually I look good in leggings wink
I got told once that I got a job because I was the best looking applicant. And that was by a woman shock
In my job we can pretty much wear what we like so most of the girls wear jeans/hoodies/uggs etc. I always wear smart clothes because I don't feel professional otherwise, and I know a few of them think I'm 'posh' because I don't feel comfortable slobbing about in my 'Mum' clothes in the office.
Sad fact is that women bitch about other women everywhere. Whether on TV, at work, in the school playground, anywhere women gather there is a bitchfest sad

BupcakesAndCunting Tue 22-Jan-13 11:24:51

I wear leggings every day. Under a dress, mind. It just looks like I am wearing thick tights but they're warmer and don't sag at the crotch like tights.

RunsWithScissors Tue 22-Jan-13 11:25:14

Had posted this link in the feminism section a few days ago.

It's a photo done by an 18yr old Canadian art student addressing this very issue. Think it's great in message as well as showing that younger generations aren't as ignorant to the issue as they are made out to be.

SigmundFraude Tue 22-Jan-13 11:27:42

'I got told once that I got a job because I was the best looking applicant. And that was by a woman'

Yes, but only because she's been conditioned by the patriarchy and had no choice but to say that...

or she fancied you wink

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 11:49:44

Yes cos she couldn't just be a shallow person who judges people entirely on their looks could she?

I think sometimes women are credited with such little intelligence by other women who refuse to believe anyone who disagrees with them, know their own mind...it simply has to be down to brain washing by the patriarchy.

<< Sigh >>

flurp Tue 22-Jan-13 12:51:57

Sigmund - I don't think she fancied me shock
We were receiptionists for a big company and when interviewing a new receptionist she told me that looks were the deciding factor. I asked her if that was the deciding factor when she interviewed me and she said yes, I was the best looking candidate.
Made me feel great that did hmm
And there was me thinking it was the qualifications I'd slogged my arse off to achieve!!

The other mothers at my son's school rarely talk to me 'because you always have lipstick on and look so together, you show us up'. I'm not convinced. I'm nothing special. I'm just a little lipstick-wearing bear. sad

Agree with Shamy. Brad was the one who was married so why didn't he get the grief. I maintain that if he left Aniston for someone plain or equal in looks to her that there would not have been such a furore. Some women love to hate beautiful women.

I am one of those rare women that always compliments friends, acquaintances, or even strangers if their hair, clothes etc look nice, but only if warranted (I don't like false niceness either). If your friend looks fab why not tell them?

Fakebook Tue 22-Jan-13 13:03:25

Well, I get judgy about how women dress when I see so called role models like Rihanna posting half nude shots on twitter smoking weed. There is no need for constant nakedness IMO. People like Kim kardashian and Rihanna milk it with their lack of clothes. I don't want my dd thinking its normal to pose like that and wear clothes like that when she's an impressionable teen.

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 15:37:51

HoneyDragon - if it is ok to judge the orange people it is also ok to judge the hairy ones? The fat ones? Where do you draw the line?

RooneyMara Tue 22-Jan-13 15:45:54

I've only read the OP, sorry. But I think the only thing that bothers a lot of us about women wearing 'sexy' clothes in certain employment (thinking of the countdown thread?) is that they might have felt the had to dress this way to get there/please the men/ etc etc

that's what worries me about it
I don't give a stuff if she likes those sort of clothes and it's without pressure.

Lueji Tue 22-Jan-13 15:52:57

FWIW, I judge men too. grin

Luckily I can wear almost what I like (not bikinis) at work, but there are lots of jobs, including for men where there's a dress code. In some you wouldn't show up in a suit and in others, you wouldn't show up in baggy jumpers.

Wear what you wish. But if I decide to go out of the door dressed like a bag lady I defy most people to ignore me or not to judge. When women aren't made to feel inadequate for not shaving every bit of body hair they possess, wearing make-up all the time, looking 'groomed' as if they are a damned race horse, I will find time to worry about other issues.

HoneyDragon Tue 22-Jan-13 16:20:06

No. The line is drawn after orange.

Nothing against people using fake tan either. But not orange.

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 16:20:36

If you think some of us not liking the fact that a woman has to be sexed up, not stylish or well groomed, but sexualised, and that intelligence is not enough on it's own- and we're all nasty sly bitches who don't want anyone to be prettier than us- rather than hating our culture, you're quite frankly stupid.

Can you please point out where i have said this? I have said it is unfair for women to try to deprive other women of the very rights they have based on their opinion of 'decent' dress.

I have questioned if it has ever occurred to some people that some women want to dress this way, nothing to do with the male gender.

I have not once said anything about anyone being prettier than anyone or anyone being nasty sly bitches.

* she is presenting a day time tv programme yet she often looks like she about to go out for the evening why is there a need for women on tv to do this why do so many then go on to do photo shoots of them in skimpy outfits.*

ouldn't possibly be because they enjoy it and want to?!

DizzyZebra Tue 22-Jan-13 16:26:19

Ormiria - How are you made to feel inadequate? Do you get abuse hurled at you?

HoneyDragon Tue 22-Jan-13 16:26:48

this I will judge. There is freedom to go out however you want, and there is chemical insanity.

I want my ds to grow up happy with his skin colour.

Darksideofthe80s Tue 22-Jan-13 16:31:01

I am one of the pink haters, it's partly the stereotype of sugar and spice and all things nice, my girls have their tomboy days and their girlie days, they just don't need to be dressed head to toe in pink to do either.
To be fair I also have a strong aversion to yellow and orange, as my name suggests I am well and truely stuck in my 80's goth days and only tend to wear black with occasional splashes of purple and red.

No. Do you? Or do you simply object to people commenting on a forum or in newspapers etc. Same thing.

As it happens I don't dress like a bag lady (well not often!) and I keep myself in reasonably good nick.

But my SIL is very large and has often had comments yelled at her 'fat cow!' etc.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 22-Jan-13 16:48:50

I had a strong reaction to the sight of 16 year olds walking to their prom wearing dresses that only barely covered their crotches (they'd be unable to dance, walk or sit down in a relaxed way), and shoes that were like stripper shoes, and they hobbled in like women with bound feet.

Such beautiful girls, but so sad that "fashion" for their age is so porny and so inhibiting.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Jan-13 16:54:52

maybe she does enjoy it she seems to be but it should not be expected of female tv presenters. do you really think if she was not as attractive she would have that job? That is the issue and that more and more women are dressed up looking very glamarous while the male presenters no matter how old, grey, weight they gain, dress as long as they are smartish it does not matter they keep their jobs and get paid better

Remotecontrolduck Tue 22-Jan-13 17:09:53

I couldn't have put this better myself OP, bored of all this 'women do this because they a told they MUST. Or because they've been influenced.

Couldn't possibly just be that they know their own mind and like something eh.

IfNotNowThenWhen Tue 22-Jan-13 17:34:16

Yeah, I see girls dressed like that in town whenever I go out JamieandtheMagicTorch. I don't judge them for being like "strippers" but I do feel a bit sorry for them that they can't actually walk properly, let alone dance.
When I was a lass back in the stone age e.g the nineties we went out clubbing in tight shiny trousers or short dresses and trainers so we could dance all night. Remember those sparkly stack sole trainers?! Ha ha. But we were quite comfy most of the time at least.
The shoes they wear now were only available in very large sizes from "specialist" retailers and were for drag queens.

Other than not wanting any woman to feel she has to be uncomfortable to look good, I don't care what other women wear.
However, when you look at the cause of any trend in culture you can't say "women are their own worst enemies". The force that effects what women feel they need to do to be attractive and therefore valued, is such an insiduous and all pervasive one.
It is driven by commercial values, e.g lots of people have a vested interest in getting women to consume more (hair products, make up, spray tan, reality TV programmes, magazines etc) and where there is cash to be made there is a massive incentive to try and brainwash us into thinking it's all "our choice".
Some of it probably is, but by no means all, and we should be realistic about that.

ICBINEG Tue 22-Jan-13 17:37:08

I could never get a job in front of camera, no matter how good at it I might be, no matter how smart, no matter what I wore. Because I am ugly.

That is the price of NOT making a fuss about women dressing like strippers, of being all oh well it's their choice, it doesn't hurt anyone else...

WELL YES IT FUCKING DOES.

It hurts me big time when other women make it all about the looks, the glamour, the sex.

It stops me getting jobs I might want...me and millions like me.

WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 17:46:28

So sexy, good looking women should hide their bodies under ankle length victorian garments because it 'hurts' you ICBINEG?

Even if they really enjoy experimenting with certain fashions and wearing certain clothes?

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Jan-13 17:51:00

I do not think she is saying that I think what she is saying that it should not only be super slim sexy women who get certain jobs

sadly the not so super sexy slim women on tv are known more for that the funny fat bird that we can laugh at, the dyke, the ugly funny one when can they just be a presenter on tv who is good at their job and what about older women

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 17:56:03

HoneyDragon, you are being tango ist. Being tangoed is a serious issue and these people need exfoliating help. Seriously yes I absolutly agree with you thats an awful look, judge away grin

What does annoy me is people referring to clothes as stripper dresses or stripper shoes. Wearing a certain type of heel doesnt make a woman a stripper, declaring someone is like a stripper is cruel and derogatory.

I wear 6inch heels, and I can walk fine in them. I dont do it to please anyone else, or to look good, or because I am a stripper. I wear them as Im a shortarse and I like them. Dr Martins are also uncomfortable and inhibating but I dont see the same judgemant for people wearing them.

OwlLady Tue 22-Jan-13 17:56:51

Karl Largerfield is a man. I know he has a funny pony tail and it's hard to tell, but he is actually male

CuriousMama Tue 22-Jan-13 17:57:27

I know plenty of 'in their words' unattractive successful women. There are plenty on tv now too. Lots who don't wear much if any make up. Loads of presenters aren't what you'd call glam. But good at their jobs. Confidence has a lot to do with it.

CuriousMama Tue 22-Jan-13 17:59:44
WorraLiberty Tue 22-Jan-13 18:14:33

I think that's exactly what she seems to be saying Freud unless I've taken this the wrong way...

That is the price of NOT making a fuss about women dressing like strippers, of being all oh well it's their choice, it doesn't hurt anyone else

So we should take away women's choice of dress because some people feel they wouldn't be able to make the same clothing choices?

And I agree with MakeItLarge, declaring a woman looks like a 'stripper' is derogatory and judgemental imo.

It's just one woman's way of looking down upon another instead of accepting that we all like to dress differently.

IfNotNowThenWhen Tue 22-Jan-13 18:24:30

I like heels too MakeItaLarge, but there are heels and heels. Last time I was in office it was like being in a fetish shop. The shoes look like instruments of torture. I can't see whats attractive about that tbh.

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 18:26:56

I have only appeared on tv once as part of my job. I was wearing a hoodie, ripped combats and steel toe capped boots. No make up and I highly doubt I had looked in the mirror that morning when I brushed my hair (which was under a hat).

Icbineg are you actually qualified or trained to do anything in the media? Have you done any work or volunteered or auditioned/interviewed? Or is it easier to blame your looks?

chandellina Tue 22-Jan-13 18:44:21

I don't like the way some women dress, just like I don't like the way some men dress. I can't stand the slutty look but it's up to girls and women to find out for themselves if it's for them. I don't think it's crazy though for a provocative look to be seen as such, whether it's a spike in your forehead or a micro skirt.

flurp Tue 22-Jan-13 20:37:06

My DD wears the most amazing high heels. She has beautiful long legs and I think she looks wonderful in them (definitely NOT like a stripper at all!!!) She walks ok in them too.
I would take 2 steps and hit the pavement if I even tried to walk in them but her and her friends all prance about quite easily.
I remember my mum tutting about my 4 inch stilettoes and tight drainpipe jeans in the 80s - it's all the same.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 22-Jan-13 20:40:53

then I read it wrong

what most are questioning on here and not all have agreed witt the stripper comments is why women presenters need to look a certain way, why once they have lost their youthful looks and are not as glamorous are they pushed aside (Arlene Phillips) no matter what their experience is and knowledge they have. Mariella Frostrup wrote an interesting article questioning why news presenters have a similar look and why Penny Smith is no longer presenting she certainly has enough experience but she is past her prime in looks for men this is not a problem.

ICBINEG Tue 22-Jan-13 20:50:09

Nah FS you read it right. WL read it wrong.

MakeItALarge Tue 22-Jan-13 21:07:38

FreudiansSlipper I think that is a genuine and valid point and in that niche environment there is some discrimination, but the point of the op is that no matter WHAT anyone wears they should not be called insulting names such as a stripper.

Throwing derogatory terms at a woman because of her choice of clothes is just as discriminating.

Moistenedbint Tue 22-Jan-13 22:28:22

Feminists bang on about bodily autonomy when it comes to abortion but my, how the tables are turned when it comes to dress or presentation. Wearing heels, exposing a bit of cleavage etc then translates to self-objectification. Hilarious double standards.

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