to feel worried about my child at school

(158 Posts)
boobymama Sun 20-Jan-13 21:16:18

am i being unreasonable to be so upset on collecting my 4 year old son from school last tuesday,to find that they had let him play out in his trainers morning and afternoon in the snow (-4) and sat all day in SOAKING trainers and socks. Why in the worst conditions we have had for ages, do they have to play outside? Why cant the teachers help the children to dress appropriately? My son developed a fever the next day and was off his food and sick! 5 more parnets have said exactly the same. The head says bring wellies!!!

missmapp Sun 20-Jan-13 21:18:04

I sent my two in snow boots last week- I like them to play outside whenever possible. Having said that, as a teacher I do stick my kids shoes and socks on the radiator to dry them off during lessons.

HollyBerryBush Sun 20-Jan-13 21:19:21

You dont get fevers from wet feet, neither do wet feet make you vomit

Let me think about this - take wellies - thats what we used to do

Patchouli Sun 20-Jan-13 21:19:59

Wellies sound a good idea.

boobymama Sun 20-Jan-13 21:21:25

The head says its not appropriate to wear snow boots in class, my son cant put them on without help as they are difficult to fasten and the teachers wont help them.

Euphemia Sun 20-Jan-13 21:21:29

Why is it the teacher's responsibility to dress your child for the weather? Why did you send him in trainers if it was snowy?

LaurieBlueBell Sun 20-Jan-13 21:22:14

What HollyBerryBush said.

It's part of the curriculum that they play outside.
DD goes to nursery with snow boots and snowsuit, hat, scarf and gloves.
She also has wellies that we leave there along with clean socks and slippers.
That way she can go outside and play and still be nice and cosy.

lisad123everybodydancenow Sun 20-Jan-13 21:22:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Euphemia Sun 20-Jan-13 21:22:34

the teachers wont help them

Don't believe this, sorry.

LynetteScavo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:24:28

Get him a cheep pair of snow boots (wellies + cold but dry toes). Four year olds tend to play outside these days. Which is why schools ask you send in wellies and waterproof coats. Personally I go for warm and waterproof.

Why was he wearing trainers at all? confused

But yes, if his feet were wet, school staff should have sorted him out.

If the head says bring wellies, then bring wellies/snow boots. And a hat and gloves. And a warm coat/waterproof coat. And here's an idea; name them.

KenLeeeeeee Sun 20-Jan-13 21:24:33

Do you honestly think that a teacher has the time to help 20 - 30 children put on snow boots? YABU to expect this. Wellies are simple for a 4 year old to slip on and it is not difficult to send them into school in their bag for play time. That's what all the children at our school have done and nobody has gotten hysterical over soggy shoes.

Hassled Sun 20-Jan-13 21:24:45

The fever and the sickness would have been caused by a virus rather than wet feet.

I don't understand - the head says bring wellies and you didn't, or you did and the staff didn't suggest he put them on?

boobymama Sun 20-Jan-13 21:25:21

I didnt send him in trainers, i changed him when got to school. We cant leave them as their clothes and shoes are going missing and they are expensive. HE IS 4,surely part of being a good teacher is being responsible!!!!

12ylnon Sun 20-Jan-13 21:25:45

I agree with euphemia it's your responsibility to make sure he has appropriate footwear with him, just like it's your responsibility to make sure he has a coat/hat/gloves with him. Wellies aren't hard to put on, surely a four year old is capable of doing it himself?
It's great for them to play in the snow! It doesn't happen very often, they should be able to make the most of it.

boobymama Sun 20-Jan-13 21:27:33


LynetteScavo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:27:52

School shoes indoors/ snow boots outside. I'm pretty sure the head isn't saying wellies are a good idea indoors all day.

If the teacher won't help them, then how about the TA? Yes, if 30 DC can't change thier footwear, then it will take ages, so independence will be encouraged. And average 4 year old will be able to put on their own snow boots (with a bit of reminding which foot they need to go on). There will always be a few children who genuinely struggle - in which case the TA should help.

Both Asda and Matalan do cheap pull on snow boots £11.

wonderstuff Sun 20-Jan-13 21:29:57

At my dd's school - she is in year R too the school ask for wellies to be kept at school - they have a big rack of them outside the classroom for playing out in.

Diddydollydo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:31:00

I'm sure he can put wellies on at 4 can't he? Then put his trainers on indoors?

LynetteScavo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:31:04

Part of being a parent is responsible and providing adequate clothing.

I spend £££ equpiping my DC in appropriate clothing. It would be nice to spend that money on something for myself, but I can't because I'm a responsible parent.

Were the items which went missing clearly named?

boobymama Sun 20-Jan-13 21:31:47

My god what is wrong with the people today. we are told not to leave snow boots. previous day he didnt play out as too cold, colder that day and they send him out with trainers on. He is 4, they are proper snow boots with hard pull fastners.I despair

addictedtolatte Sun 20-Jan-13 21:32:58

Definitely don't get temp through wet feet. Think you need to chill a bit to be honest. My ds teacher and assistant were out enjoying the snow with them I thought that was lovely smile

manicbmc Sun 20-Jan-13 21:34:16

Wellies are cheap. You can write the kid's name inside in black marker.

So wellies for getting to school/playtime and take a pair of trainers for through the day.

Diddydollydo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:34:33

So get him wellies then for crying out loud. Jeez, stroppy or what?

Diddydollydo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:36:04

I don't get why you're so stroppy with everyone to be honest. Can your ⁴ year old put a pair of wellies on for outdoor play or not?

crashdoll Sun 20-Jan-13 21:36:09

He didn't get ill due to having wet feet! Goodness me.....

Mutt Sun 20-Jan-13 21:36:12

Send cheap wellies in

Which part of that do you not understand?

ShipwreckedAndComatose Sun 20-Jan-13 21:36:25

What's wrong with Cheap Welles?

WorraLiberty Sun 20-Jan-13 21:36:49

Just get him slip on wellies...not snow boots with fasteners that he can't fasten.

It's not rocket science and Asda sell wellies for a couple of quid.

HollyBerryBush Sun 20-Jan-13 21:38:22

Pair of wellies is 4 quid in Primark - marker pen his name on them

"I didnt send him in trainers, i changed him when got to school. We cant leave them as their clothes and shoes are going missing"

So you took him to school in appropriate footwear - and then you changed him out of them when he arrived at school and took the appropriate footwear home?

You didn't leave him appropriate footwear to put on for playtime and you think it's the SCHOOLS fault your child had wet feet?!

It is YOUR fault your son was sat in wet shoes and socks. As the parent you are responsible for providing your child with appropriate clothing and footwear for the school day including outdoor playtimes. You didn't do this.

Outdoor play is part of the curriculum and unless it is absolutely tipping it down with rain or there is a thunderstorm or gales children go outside. As they should. Cold is not a reason to keep children in.

Did you expect the school to keep your child in because you didn't leave him appropriate footwear? They would have had to assign a member of staff to watch him, on his own, because you failed to provide appropriate footwear.

YABU - massively so. And slightly hysterical - having wet feet does not cause illness.

littleducks Sun 20-Jan-13 21:42:40

Ds is in reception and has a pair of school wellies left on the rack all year. Dd is in yr 2 and they don't keep wellies at school. So I have to predict weather and send them which 9/10 is fine, if she doesn't have wellies and her shoes get wet she puts them on radiator to dry and wears plimsoles til they do.

Honestly cheap wellies named in big black marker will be fine.

MrsKeithRichards Sun 20-Jan-13 21:43:17

You let him wear trainers because he can't manage his snow boots? It's January, why have you not bought wellies before now?

FWIW my 16 month old DD can put her wellies on - not always on the right feet granted, but she can get them on. As can most children from toddler age.

I am sure your 4 year old will be able to manage it just fine - you just need to actually leave them AT the school. Problem solved.

larks35 Sun 20-Jan-13 21:46:26

Trainers, snow boots and wellies aside, your son did not get a fever and be sick due to wet feet. If he was already ailing it wouldn't have helped but it wouldn't have caused it. I'm guessing that if, as you say, 5 more children have the same symptoms then it is most probably a virus.

NumericalMum Sun 20-Jan-13 21:47:05

My 4yo can put her wellies, trainers, school shoes and snow boots on.i had no idea this was such an achievement. shock

missmapp Sun 20-Jan-13 21:47:13

Ds2 has just turned 5 and he can pull his snow boots on and change into school shoes. Teachers can't change 30 kids and if he didn't have boots they couldn't change him anyway.

I was reading recently that the increase in bugs is due to children and adults having too warm homes and too little time outside-i tend to agree.

12ylnon Sun 20-Jan-13 21:49:07

Wellies are £6 in mothercare. A pair for school would be a great idea.

hugoagogo Sun 20-Jan-13 21:51:36

In very wet or snowy weather dd wears boots and takes school shoes in a bag, then she has dry shoes for indoors and boots for playtime/walk home. (I put some socks in too)

Although I'm sure teachers do try to help, it's best to send them in things they can manage for themselves.

I wouldn't be happy if my dc was in wet socks all day, but it really won't do them any harm in the long run.

SirBoobAlot Sun 20-Jan-13 21:52:12

YABU. This whole situation is your responsibility. Worried about snow boots getting taken, buy a cheap pair of wellies and write his name on in permanent marker.

Teachers can't help children dress more appropriately if you don't provide the items.

And if five other kids were off as well, it is more likely to have been a virus.

It is winter. They will get a bit wet.

gordyslovesheep Sun 20-Jan-13 21:55:33

trainers are not good for little feet - buy some decent winter boots - problem solved

fevers are caused by infection or by a virus - not the cold

FrustratedSycamoresRocks Sun 20-Jan-13 21:56:26

I can't see how any of this is the schools fault. You were advised to awnd wellys but you didnt. Although I am slightly hmm about the idea that you put trainers on him at school instead of school shoes.

My 4yo SN child can put wellys on, and despite being non-verbal she can also take off wet shoes and socks and give them to an adult. If the child doesn't say they have wet feet then how is the teacher supposed to know? Your child is nolonger at nursery, and it is not the teachers job to go around checking 20-30 children's socks.

At this age I have always supplied a change of clothes, including socks, in a bag that stays on the peg all year. and replaced when needed

HollaAtMeBaby Sun 20-Jan-13 21:59:41

Can't he just wear snow boots and keep them on all day? A bloke in my office did that on Friday (with his suit).

letseatgrandma Sun 20-Jan-13 21:59:46

This whole situation is entirely of your own making. I bet the school think you are being ridiculous.

Go and buy some wellies ASAP.

DonderandBlitzen Sun 20-Jan-13 22:02:07

YABU. Yes the Head is right, you need to make sure he has a pair of wellies to change into on days when it is snowing. It is your job to provide appropriate footwear for your son.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sun 20-Jan-13 22:02:37

You are all being unkind. I know for a fact you can get TB off wet feet. IN EIGHTEEN FIFTY FUCKING THREE

BollyGood Sun 20-Jan-13 22:03:12

I felt sorry for your little boy OP it's horrible to feel wet all day. And you know not all children are as able as others and are at very different developmental levels. My dd has always struggled with physical things no matter how much we have helped her to be independent over the years. She is 6.5 and only just managing some things which her peers have been doing for years. She is very academic and was reading at 3 and is a bright little button, just not up to the same level with motor skills and things.

Our school insist on parents bringing Wellies and a change of socks etc, I bring a bag for dd with everything in it. But, they are not allowed outside if we forget so wouldn't have been in the same position as your little one even if I had forgotten or taken the boots home. It's partly the schools fault and partly the fact he needed Wellies at school. They could have dried his socks for him or got his PE plimsolls for him to wear and put the trainers on a radiator. You are not entirely wrong to feel upset. It's just a lesson learnt. Dd's feet still got soaked last year in the snow, even with boots on,so this year I got the wellies with ties. She likes to go out sometimes but not all. I wouldn't either personally it's bloody cold at times!

And our school are not very forthcoming with help for the very young children either, they do it if they can,but as someone said up thread they don't have the time to help all of them. My issue with this is the massive gap between the ages of children starting reception, a whole year almost between some. Dd isn't 7 for ages and most of her friends were before Xmas. They have had more time in nursery or preschool many of them and longer to learn things.

Just bring everything next time OP, but as I said YANBEU! Whatever everyone else says. grin

needtogetoffsofa Sun 20-Jan-13 22:05:47

They are not going to stay inside if the snow lasts for the next three weeks. Get him some wellies (£4 asda) and teach him how to put them on

EnjoyResponsibly Sun 20-Jan-13 22:05:59

Or trench foot. You get that off wet feet.

Seriously OP, stop being a stroppy drama llama. Buy poor DS a pair of wellies and good socks. He walks to school in wellies and can change into his shoes, then put on the wellies at playtime.

BTW this is AIBU (and you ARE) grin

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 20-Jan-13 22:06:50


It's your responsibility to ensure your child has the correct clothing


kim147 Sun 20-Jan-13 22:09:24

Most teachers would help children put on outdoor shoes - but let me tell you. 30 children is a lot to deal with. I've helped reception and year 1 put on wellies. snow shoes and then do their coats up. Takes a long time.

yousankmybattleship Sun 20-Jan-13 22:10:48

Wet feet would not cause fever and sickness.

GET HIM SOME WELLIES. Not poncy snow boots, just a cheap pair of wellies so his feet will be dry.

qualitytoffee Sun 20-Jan-13 22:13:35

Sorry, boobymama, it is your responsibility to make sure that your LO has appropriate clothing for the conditions, so please don't blame it on the school. From my experience, 4 year olds would rather be outside anyway than couped up all day in a stuffy classroom.

bollywoodfan Sun 20-Jan-13 22:15:52

Well our school are really good then. My Ds is in R and they help them with getting changed/footwear if required. Also when it snowed last mon any children who didn't have wellies with them did not play outside. Only a few children did have their boots with them that day as there had not been much snow - only a couple of cm, so most had come with their normal school shoes on.
I have sent him with his wellies everyday after that but they have not played outside since due to it being too icy/slippery.

Ineedmorepatience Sun 20-Jan-13 22:19:24

If this is the most worrying part of your Ds being at school then you are very lucky!!

Aspiemum2 Sun 20-Jan-13 22:21:08

Not a reverse then? No? confused

Bonkers! get some snow boots for heavens sake. Plenty in the shops just now, take him with you and buy a pair that he can slip on and off.
Wellies can be a bit slippy in snow but better than trainers

CloudsAndTrees Sun 20-Jan-13 22:25:58

Why is he wearing trainers at school anyway? School shoes and wellies are your answer.

You teach him how to put on wellies, you teach him how to take them off an put them straight into a carrier bag with his name on, then hang them on his peg. If you are there to collect him at the end of the day, his wellies won't go far, and if they do you can go in and find them.

stealthsquiggle Sun 20-Jan-13 22:39:57

DD has wellies & welly socks at school, as well as over trousers, coat, gloves and hat. They all do. When they had property snow, they were all instructed to put wet hats, gloves, etc on the radiator when they came in. If everything is well named, nothing goes missing other than the odd glove.

Of course snow boots are not suitable for class hmm

stealthsquiggle Sun 20-Jan-13 22:40:47

Proper, not property.

withgreatpower Sun 20-Jan-13 22:41:11

OP, I agree with you. I wouldn't be happy to play outside in this cold weather, and I wouldn't be happy to have wet clothes/shoes on. I understand it's hard for teachers to keep the children in at break time, but when the weather is cold or wet, the children shiuld be allowed to choose if they want to stay indoors.

I so agree with you.

And little children, especially the skinny ones, like my DD, get cold very quickly (DD gets bluey lips from being cold after being in the swimming pool for 20 minutes, even though she moves around).

Yfronts Sun 20-Jan-13 22:42:20

I think you should have ensured you child was prepared for outdoor play while the school shouldn't have let your son sit in wet clothes all day

makemineapinot Sun 20-Jan-13 22:49:34

And just add that to the complaints from parents when a head decides not to let the children out to play in the snow for 'health and safety' - teachers can't win. But yeah, totally agree with other posters - your child = your responsibility to send him with appropriate clothing/footwear. Buy him some wellies and send in spare socks, not rocket science! Let him experience the joy of playing outside in the snow with his friends.

VenusRising Sun 20-Jan-13 22:54:33

Omg can't believe the bashing the OP has got on this thread.

Op I hope your DS is getting better. Of course you can exacerbate a chill, and reduce your immunity to a virus if you're freezing cold - I got pneumonia from going out with wet hair.

It's difficult to leave willies or boots for the children to change into if things are going missing - even with the best will in the world labelled uniforms and shoes DO go missing, and not everyone can afford to replace ad nauseum.
Had your DS got a cubby to at least put a dry pair of socks in.

Maybe a cheap pair of boots or even slippers might be an option, and teach your DS how to put them on and take off.

It's important also to teach your DS to speak up and tell the teacher that his feet are wet and cold. She may suggest he takes off his shoes and gets his dry socks to put on.

I feel for you actually op, and don't think you deserved the bashing.

NaturalBaby Sun 20-Jan-13 22:59:16

My 4yr old needed wellies last week for a winter walk so they all went out for a snowball fight (in their wellies), other than that they stayed in at playtime when the snow was bad.

I would be having words with the teacher if my child came home in that state.

seeker Sun 20-Jan-13 23:00:46

"I got pneumonia from going out with wet hair."

No you didn't.

VenusRising Sun 20-Jan-13 23:01:07

Willies, Wellies, duh

VenusRising Sun 20-Jan-13 23:02:16

Yes I did seeker.
Thank you for you opinion all the same, but no thanks, not biting.

manicbmc Sun 20-Jan-13 23:03:12

You cannot get pneumonia from going out with wet hair.

qualitytoffee Sun 20-Jan-13 23:03:44

Venus, she's not getting a bashing, of course a LO shouldn't be ill, and i sympathise completely, but bless him, it wasn't caused by going outside, it may have exasperated it, but surely the most sensible thing was to ensure for any eventualities? That means hat, scarf and wellies (thermals if necessary)
It is not the schools responsibility to police that,its up to Mum to ensure it.

Sympathies OP, but it really isn't the schools fault. Hope he gets better soon x

Salmotrutta Sun 20-Jan-13 23:03:45

Children should be out playing in the snow.

And they should have the appropriate gear.

I have relatives in Norway and Canada. Their kids never stayed inside during school lunchtimes and in Norway the children are out every week doing forest school type stuff. Even in winter.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sun 20-Jan-13 23:03:49

It's difficult to leave willies or boots for the children to change into if things are going missing

He he he grin

seeker Sun 20-Jan-13 23:04:56

I'm really sorry, but you didn't.

You went out with wet hair, and at a later stage developed pneumonia, but the two were not connected. Honestly, they weren't. Whatever your granny told you.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sun 20-Jan-13 23:05:18

Things go missing in schools all the time, although often they show up in the lost property.

No excuse not to send in wellies though.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Sun 20-Jan-13 23:05:48

The wet hair thing is an old wives tale.

Salmotrutta Sun 20-Jan-13 23:06:47

Well, in fairness, they did show that being cold did, in fact, make you more susceptible to viruses in a research project a while back.

Haven't worked out how to do iPad links yet but it will be google able I should imagine.

But dress your child properly and it isn't an issue fgs!!

BarredfromhavingStella Sun 20-Jan-13 23:07:51

My 3 year old DD has been wearing snow boots all week & has taken trainers in rucksack to nursery so unsure why you couldn't send your 4 year old with the same? confused (yes she puts them on herself £6.50 from Aldi, pull on ones)

VenusRising Sun 20-Jan-13 23:09:32

Look, I don't care how evolved you think you are from grannies or old wives or whatever, but I was there with my respiratory consultant, and he and my GP agreed it was the wet hair that reduced my immunity to give me pneumonia, so go and teach someone else to suck eggs will ya?

OP hope your little fella is getting better from his fever.

WorraLiberty Sun 20-Jan-13 23:10:08

Op I hope your DS is getting better. Of course you can exacerbate a chill, and reduce your immunity to a virus if you're freezing cold - I got pneumonia from going out with wet hair.

No really you didn't.

Even if you caught a cold after your chill...that would have been because you were already carrying the cold just weren't showing any symptoms.

No-one unless they are psychic could tell you how you caught the lung infection.

Narked Sun 20-Jan-13 23:11:26

We've had some Very Odd Threads in the past day or two.

seeker Sun 20-Jan-13 23:11:48

Bloody hell, the NHS is in a worse state than I thought it was! Honestly, just think for a moment. What possible connection could there be between having wet hair and having pneumonia?

TheFallenMadonna Sun 20-Jan-13 23:14:05

When I had penumonia, nobody asked me about wet hair...

At my DC's school, childrne have a choice to go out and play in the snow, or stay inside. The playground is divided into an area where snowballs are allowed, and an area where they are not. No child is allowed out in inadequate clothing. That seems sensible to me, merely from a comfort POV.

Salmotrutta Sun 20-Jan-13 23:16:32

Ok, I found a report about the Cardiff University common cold research centre but I can't do links.

They showed that cold noses reduce the ability to fight viral infections.

It was reported back in 2005.

hettie Sun 20-Jan-13 23:18:36

Pneumonia through wet hair.... you made me snort wine up my nose hold my head in my hands and bemoan our collective failure to give a basic scientific education in this country.....

manicbmc Sun 20-Jan-13 23:19:19

So nothing to do with wet hair then?

I believe the research wasn't fully conclusive and everyone in their sample would have had to be totally free of any viruses or other factors to make the research valid to begin with.

Fakebook Sun 20-Jan-13 23:19:33

OP, teach your dc to change his shoes. Problem sorted. My dd is in foundation stage too, but they're not allowed to play in the snow or in sub zero temperatures. They all go into the gym at lunch time if its too cold.

When I was 13 I went and stood outside at night after washing my hair for about an hour waving my hair around so I'd catch a cold because I had ice skating as my chosen Wednesday afternoon activity at school and I hated it.
Guess what? I never bloody got a cold! It's all lies!

ProphetOfDoom Sun 20-Jan-13 23:20:26

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DonderandBlitzen Sun 20-Jan-13 23:20:38

We all need knitted nose warmers.

hettie Sun 20-Jan-13 23:22:07

Mmme, well I did a post-doc at Cardiff and am fairly confident that that research was not about cold causing pneumonia

Aspiemum2 Sun 20-Jan-13 23:22:22

Yes narked, there's been a few that have made me go eh?? I must be getting old!

WorraLiberty Sun 20-Jan-13 23:22:59

SchmaltzingMatilda that's exactly it.

stealthsquiggle Sun 20-Jan-13 23:27:52

You again, Venus [sigh]

Salmotrutta Sun 20-Jan-13 23:29:12

I never said the research showed that cold caused pneumonia!

Just that they thought their might be a link between cold noses and being more susceptible to viruses.

The epithelium of the nose presumably becomes more accessible to viruses ... Or summat.

Jeez, I was only sayin' ... hmm

Salmotrutta Sun 20-Jan-13 23:30:14

There, not their. Oh the shame.

IsabelleRinging Sun 20-Jan-13 23:32:24

A lowering of body temperature for a prolonged period does indeed reduce the ability of your body to fight an infection. Therefore, if you have been in contact with a virus and you are warm there is more chance that your immune system will readily attack the virus and kill it and you will not succumb to symptoms. However, if your body is fighting to keep warm and you are cold, your bodies resources will not be focused on fighting the virus and it will have more chance of invading your body and causing an infection.

Being cold does not cause a cold, but it can make you more likely to catch one.

Make sure your child has wellies. And what did the rest of the class do?

qualitytoffee Sun 20-Jan-13 23:33:14

Well if booby is reading this, i really hope your son gets better soon xxx

Thats all x

Fakebook did you go to my school? I used to have ice skating as my chosen Wednesday afternoon activity lol!

TheNebulousBoojum Sun 20-Jan-13 23:41:00

He's 4, of course the adults in school will help him put on his stuff. If there are a lot of children who need help and he has to wait instead of instant mummy service, then he may feel that no one is helping him.
But they are.

MerryCouthyMows Sun 20-Jan-13 23:50:17

Pair of Wellies, £1.50 in Home Bargains. There is NO excuse for your DC's not being properly equipped for school.

I do have to say, though, to the naysayers, that my DC's Primary school will not help any DC's with 'self care' skills like zipping up coats, putting on gloves, putting on wellies or snow boots, or changing for PE, unless the have a full statement of SEN for a physical disability.

Which is a PITA if you have a DC with a physical disability that is on SA+. I used to have to go in twice a week to get DS2 changed for PE and back into his uniform, right up until he was halfway through Y2.

So no, not all schools will help. I DO believe the OP on that one, having had experience of a school like that myself.

However, my DS2 has a physical disability that DOES make any fine or gross motor control skills like dressing take longer to acquire, and I have had to find 'cheats' for PE days to enable him to change without my help. He still cannot do up buttons and he is 9yo.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Mon 21-Jan-13 09:21:14

Merry. That is despicable! angry

Fakebook Mon 21-Jan-13 09:28:11

Coolaschmoola, was your school single sex?

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 09:37:31

I went to school in Sweden. We had swimming at the local swimming baths every Wednesday before lunchtime and then walked through town back to school- yes, with our hair wet- for lessons. As far as I remember it, we were a healthy bunch.

There are outdoor nurseries in both Scotland and Sweden where the children simply never go indoors.

LynetteScavo Mon 21-Jan-13 11:12:46

Never go indoors cory? Not even if they want to?

Sounds interesting. Off to Google.

Lovestosing Mon 21-Jan-13 11:15:44

My two year old is capable of putting on wellie socks over her normal
Socks and then her wellies on, she just needs a bit of help taking wellies off. My four year old wears wellies and thick socks to school then changes into normal shoes when she goes inside. It would take up a lot of break time putting wellies on each and every child, I think teachers kind of presume children are able to put their own shoes on by the time they start school.

valiumredhead Mon 21-Jan-13 11:25:05

I agree, you need to send ds in with wells he can put on and take off himself.

Sadly it completely depends on the school/teachers as to weather the kids get any help dressing appropriately for the snow ime.

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 11:28:29

Just googled the Malmö pre-school Stock och sten; most of their activities are centered around the local park, where apparently they have two windbreaks. They do have some kind of building elsewhere for the drying of clothes and eating meals in inclement weather, but activities are all outside unless the weather is exceptionally inclement (we are probably talking temperatures below -15 here).

MoominmammasHandbag Mon 21-Jan-13 11:31:41

With the best will in the world I think a certain proportion of perfectly healthy, neurotypical 4 year olds will struggle a bit with changing wet socks and shoes. Mine didn't but I've seen plenty of little kids that did. Kids that struggle, whether through poor skills or idle parents who haven't bothered to teach them, shouldn't just be left with cold feet. How can you learn if you are uncomfortable?

valiumredhead Mon 21-Jan-13 11:32:40

I bet part of the norm though cory is that kids are well wrapped up and warm and don't have soaking wet trainers all day.

snowybrrr Mon 21-Jan-13 11:33:42

My Ds had his willies nicked while he was doing judo on saturday and there are no more in the shops!

snowybrrr Mon 21-Jan-13 11:33:57

ha ha wellies!!

ShamyFarrahCooper Mon 21-Jan-13 11:35:08

OP can they not use pumps for indoor? Ds' school have a rule they must change out of outdoor school shoes/wellies/snow boots and in to pumps for indoors. Snowboots & pumps are easy to slip on/off

ShamyFarrahCooper Mon 21-Jan-13 11:36:07

Oh and I got snow boots in aldi for £8 for him! Was so pleased as last year we paid £26 blush for a pair in Next and he wore them twice. This year we've had loads of use, even when raining hard rather than snowing.

MoominmammasHandbag Mon 21-Jan-13 11:37:17

And nurseries where kids never go inside are frankly bizarre. How do kids develope their fine motor skills? How do the play with blocks, look at books, mess around with water and paint when they are presumably bundled up the ginnells?

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Mon 21-Jan-13 11:37:26

At my DD's school they won't help them with their coats. DD came home one day and said the teacher had said she couldn't wear her snow suit to school anymore as she struggles to do the zip herself.

She is 4 angry I still send her in it though as it keeps her warm. They still haven't said anything to me about it, and i'm pretty fucking peed off that they would tell her she couldn't wear something that keeps her warm!

seeker Mon 21-Jan-13 11:40:44

Has a teacher actually said they won't help with coats? Because I have never come across this in any of the schools I have been associated with.

MrsMelons Mon 21-Jan-13 11:41:55

I don't think there is any need for people to be so harsh on the OP (but she was quite rude back).

I am surprised that a 4 year old (I didn't see that any issues were mentioned regarding this) cannot put wellies on and then change back into shoes. When I went to school 20-odd years ago we could only buy lace ups or buckles and many of the children could do it by 4. I have always been told by pre-schools/schools that being able to dress themselves and go to the toilet alone are the things they should be able to do when starting school (if nothing else). There are always children who will help others if they are struggling also.

I also wouldn't send my DCs to a school where they didn't help YR children to make sure they are in appropriate stuff to go outside as I think it sounds a bit ridiculous. However this would not be possible for them to do if parents don't take the correct (labelled) clothing in for them.

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Mon 21-Jan-13 11:44:33

seeker this is just what I have heard from my DD. They haven't said anything to me yet, but maybe they were hoping she would. Personally I think its ridiculous not to help them.

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 11:45:09

MoominmammasHandbag Mon 21-Jan-13 11:37:17
"And nurseries where kids never go inside are frankly bizarre. How do kids develope their fine motor skills?"

I assume they develop them by building things out of doors, painting out of doors when the weather isn't wet, sandpits are very popular; there is no reason you can't use e.g. lego out of doors; it's plastic, so comes to no harm. We used to make animals out of fir cones, that would also be good for developing fine motor skills. Ime Scandinavian children usually start out learning DIY at a very early age, so a 4yo would be quite likely to be good at using a hammer and screwdriver. Again, no reason you have to be indoors to do DIY. They could even have cooking classes out of doors if they have the right equipment.

I never went to an outdoor nursery (or indeed any nursery), but I do seem to remember a lot of time spent doing crafts out of doors.

MoominmammasHandbag Mon 21-Jan-13 11:45:18

Hmmm I was in school forty years ago and we all had laces and buckles. As I remember we just slid our shoes on and off without undoing them. Not ideal I don't think.

acsec Mon 21-Jan-13 11:45:30

As a Reception teacher I am forever putting shoes/ socks/ gloves/ jumpers sometimes every item of clothing a child is wearing on the radiators, so long as the child has told me they have wet feet, or I can see they are wet. I also help children put their boots on, when I know they have boots - again they have to tel me. Teachers are not psychic, but we will help when we know it is needed. I've told my class to always tell me when they need my help, so even the children with very little English can let me know.

My class keep their named wellies in a carrier bag on their coat pegs, sometimes they have them on the wrong feet but for the most part all children are capable of putting the wellies on, it's the changing back into shoes they need help with, and my TA and I always do.

MoominmammasHandbag Mon 21-Jan-13 11:53:49

Cory But don't they need to have gloves a lot of the time? I agree that its great for kids to spend a lot of time outdoors and I sent my kids to a nursery where they could go for a tramp round the woods every day if they chose to. I just think to be completely outside all day is quite extreme.

cory Mon 21-Jan-13 12:40:14

I don't actually know, Moominmamma, it's not as if I had any real experience of my own, but from what I remember of my own childhood you can do a fair bit of craft with gloves on. Might even be good for motor skills, on the principle of Demosthenes declaiming with pebbles in his mouth.

Anyway, only brought these outdoor places up as an argument that it is probably possible for young children to play out of doors in winter without catching their death.

If I had to be absolutely honest- I probably wouldn't send a child of my own. Not because I think they're dangerous, but because I also have such fond memories of indoor pursuits. A mix sounds good to me.

perceptionreality Mon 21-Jan-13 12:45:51

I've sent mine to school in wellies, with school shoes/trainers in the case of the 3 year old so that they can change into their normal shoes when they get into school.

On the point of teachers not helping them - I certainly believe you that this does happen, especially in a class of 30.

DonderandBlitzen Mon 21-Jan-13 12:58:39

Yes really important to have willies. grin [childish]

BitOutOfPractice Mon 21-Jan-13 13:00:44

Kids playing outdoors?! Having fun?! I am scandalised!!

OP send wellies. Like every other sane person does

FeistyLass Mon 21-Jan-13 13:02:35

I can't believe the hard time you'be had but then I think YANBU. You have a responsibility to provide appropriate clothing but the school also has a responsibility to assess the weather and decide if it's appropriate or not to send children outside.
Since you are not the only parent who has complained, it seems the school made the wrong judgement.
A few weeks ago nursery kept my ds in rather than sending him out to play because he felt cold. (He did have appropriate clothing including wellies that we keep at school but he was obviously coming down with something). My point is that teachers can use their discretion on whether or not to send a child outdoors and sending someone into the snow with trainers is inappropriate. Leaving them sitting with wet feet for the rest of the day is also inappropriate.
Yes, in future it would help if you left wellies at school but you'd still be relying on the teaching staff to realise the children needed time to change into wellies. You have to be able to trust their judgement and they have to use it. A blanket 'oh the children have to go outside' regardless is plain stupid.

valiumredhead Mon 21-Jan-13 14:52:57

I think most people in RL would be pretty miffed their 4 year old was in soaking wet trainers all day. At my ds's school they wouldn't be allowed out without wellies and that is a middle school.

MrsMelons Mon 21-Jan-13 14:55:15

the issue with 1 child having to stay in is the staff that need to stay with them I guess. Teachers still need to have lunch breaks and the lunch time staff are usually outside. There are ways round it I am sure but its not really the point.

I do agree the school should make sure the children are dressed properly but not sure whether I agree with them keeping a child in because the parent has not given them the correct clothes.

MrsMelons Mon 21-Jan-13 14:57:53

definitely Valium school sounds very heartless - we were always sticking wet clothes on radiators at my pre-school (and using spares if necessary)

I think the problem is that the OP complained that the school don't help them dress appropriately but it turns out he had nothing to dress appropriately in.

LIZS Mon 21-Jan-13 15:01:26

It was snowy and he only had trainers on ! Even my dyspraxic 3yr old was able to manage snow boots. We lived abroad and not playing out in all weathers was not an option !

valiumredhead Mon 21-Jan-13 15:06:07

If a child doesn't have wellies or suitable clothing than they shouldn't be allowed outside, the teacher shouldn't just think 'Oh fuck it' and let them out anyway! They should be kept inside and at home time parents should be told to bring in spare clothes.

Lots of schools are fab but dear God the more I have to do with them the more I wonder if teachers/school workers know anything about small kids at all!

Sazzle41 Mon 21-Jan-13 15:17:55

In the 1970's when I was primary age, no school would take a 4yr old unless they were toilet trained, knew their colours (not sure re significance of that one as that had died out when I qualified to teach) and could dress themselves. I know things have changed, but I taught in the late 80's and I didn't have time to help 30kids dress every play time & lunchtime ... What concerns me more is a friend still in teaching has 12year olds who can't tie their own shoe laces .. WTF ??

Trainers in the snow? Recipe for disaster. Wellies. Cheap as chips either from Amazon/Matalan/local shoe stall on the market.. easy to mark w. perm marker. And you dont get ill from the cold/wet - that old wives tale got disproved years ago ... Why do some parents today think teachers have time to 'parent' .. on top of providing academic and social skills? The basics should be covered and/or provided at home ... and that means food/shelter/ clothes/hygiene/manners and moral compass (awaits flaming ..) ...

MardyArsedMidlander Mon 21-Jan-13 16:41:53

'A blanket 'oh the children have to go outside' regardless is plain stupid.'

Blimey, good job you didn't grow up with my grandmother- if there'd been an outside school in South Wales she'd have sent us there.
Children NEED to run around outside a) it's good for them and b) they concentrate on lessons much better.

RooneyMara Mon 21-Jan-13 16:45:29

I'm confused about all the different footwear tbh having just read the OP< but fwiw I've kept mine off because I don't want them sent out to play in the snow at school with nothing dry to change into.

They can play out here, and come in and put on dry clothes - they are older than yours as well.

I think keep him off for a few days till the snow has gone. Children in reception always struggle with clothes and a lot of other issues, and I think it's fine to just stay at home when circumstances make it trickier than normal.

ElenorRigby Mon 21-Jan-13 17:46:27

Clarks Goretex Shoes are your friend.
DD wears Clarks Goretex boots from October to April, they look smart and she never gets wet or cold.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 21-Jan-13 18:04:20

I work in a school, and it is surprising how many parents send their children in to school with clothes they simply can't manage

Shoes with laces when they can't tie laces
Gloves when they can't put them on
Coats with fiddly buttons

Teach them how to do it, or put mittens on string and velcro fastened shoes if they can't yet.

I can't swear my DC sdidn't need any help when they first wwent to school, but I think they could do their own shoes and coats. Teachers and CA sdo their best to help, but a whole playtime could be taken up sorting out every child.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 21-Jan-13 18:11:57

Saw a child in reception today with wellies on, and her right wellie had a big smiley face drawn on it. To help her put them in the right feet. smile

DIYapprentice Mon 21-Jan-13 18:29:17

Aaah, I'm getting so exasperated reading this thread! Can you lot please stop the 'wet feet won't make you ill' crap????!!!!!!

Yes, it is germs and bugs that make you ill, but getting chilled will make you EXTREMELY susceptible to the germs and bugs that are around.

In a test during the flu season, they sat 90 people with their feet in bowl of ice water for 90 minutes, and 90 people with their feet in an empty bowl. 29% of the people with their feet in the ice water developed cold symptoms over the next 5 days, and only 9% of the control group did.

So if the OP's DS did develop an illness, then it is quite likely that being soaking wet and cold played a very big role in that!!!

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 21-Jan-13 18:50:12

When i was a girl, in the 70 s, we all had these plimsolls that were brightly coloured and had left and right written on them

Easy answer to the wellies-on-the-wrong feet problem

Either take the insoles out if they come with insoles, and draw on the insoles, or otherwise take a big black marker pen and draw half a smiley face on the left boot, half a smiley on the right boot, inside, at the bottom of the boot

Then teach your dc that when you put your wellies together and they are smiling at you, then you've got them on the right feet. My 3 year old has got this sorted, and can do wellies herself

shame mummy didn't check that the wellies were smiling when I put them on the wrong feet this morning

LtEveDallas Mon 21-Jan-13 19:42:40

In a test during the flu season, they sat 90 people with their feet in bowl of ice water for 90 minutes, and 90 people with their feet in an empty bowl. 29% of the people with their feet in the ice water developed cold symptoms over the next 5 days, and only 9% of the control group did

Can you find this study please.

Unless the people doing the study could be sure that the 180 people they tested had exactly the same level of fitness, exactly the same immune systems, exactly the same diet and so on, then the test is meaningless. Some people are more susceptible to colds and flu, some are never ill, some smoke, some drink, some take vitamins.

Plus, where did these tests take place? Were all 180 in the same room? Did anyone admit to already feeling ropey? Were the 29% sitting close to each other?

Too many variables. Too many questions. No 'proof' that being cold was the deciding factor at all

LynetteScavo Mon 21-Jan-13 19:43:19 it's not just me who thinks being cold and wet makes you ill if bugs are flying around. I speak from personal experience as someone who got croup if I ever went out with wet hair, even as a teenager. My mother would tell me I would get croup, I didn't listen and I got croup. (And I didn't grow out of it until I was 20, so so much for it being a child hood illness grin)

But knowing this, I ensure my DC have dry feet/take a change of socks to school - there is a limit to how many spare pairs of socks a school has.

withgreatpower Mon 21-Jan-13 20:07:38

Somebody asked for references...

The researchers randomized 180 healthy participants to 20 minutes of water at 10 degrees C or an empty bowl. In the current issue of the journal Family Practice, they reported:

There was no difference in acute cold symptoms immediately after the experiment.
After a few days, 13 of the 90 participants who were chilled reported they were suffering from the symptoms of a cold, compared with five of the 90 controls. The result was statistically significant at p = 0.047.
The 18 participants who came down with symptoms of a cold also reported that they were more likely to suffer colds during the year than did the 162 who remained healthy. The result was statistically significant at p = 0.007.

Results. 13/90 subjects who were chilled reported they were suffering from a cold in the 4/5 days after the procedure compared to 5/90 control subjects (P = 0.047). There was no evidence that chilling caused any acute change in symptom scores (P = 0.62). Mean total symptom score for days 1–4 following chilling was 5.16 (±5.63 s.d. n = 87) compared to a score of 2.89 (±3.39 s.d. n = 88) in the control group (P = 0.013). The subjects who reported that they developed a cold (n = 18) reported that they suffered from significantly more colds each year (P = 0.007) compared to those subjects who did not develop a cold (n = 162).

Hypothermia in animals and humans can induced pancytopenia (4) and impair the functional activity of leukocytes (3). In animal models, cold temperatures may adversely affect many infectious diseases. Lillie and colleagues (5) in studying St Louis encephalitis in mice and typhus in guinea pigs observed that infectious morbidity was highest in the winter and lowest in the summer – corresponding to environmental temperature. Moreover, the incubation period (i.e. subclinical phase) for both infections was significantly shorter in the wintertime than in summer. Thus, if colder temperatures impair the ability of the host to overcome an overt infection, one could expect that the same would be true in combating subclinical infections. The fact that animals reallocate energy resources from reproduction and growth to the immune system during winter (6) further supports the concept that cold exposure impairs immunity.

simpson Mon 21-Jan-13 20:15:54

I felt bad today as I had to send DS (yr3) in his normal school shoes as he had left his wellie boots at my mums after going sledging yesterday ( but did put a spare pair of socks in his bag) but he had wet play anyway...

DD is in reception and when I went into the school this afternoon to read with yr2 kids, she was in the playground with her teacher (and about 6 kids) making the most enormous snowman and having a fab time (she had her wellie boots on).

I do think it's the parents responsibility to make sure their children have the correct clothes on.

However I would be fuming if a teacher would not help my DD do up her coat (she cannot do zips but her coat does have Velcro fastening too but it can come undone) or ask her to change her tights if she had fallen in the snow (she had a spare pair in her book bag just incase)...

Timetoask Mon 21-Jan-13 20:27:42

At ds's school, parents are asked at the beginning of the year to bring wellies that are to be kept at school. I love the fact that children are encouraged to play outside in all weather.

seeker Mon 21-Jan-13 22:43:00

Well, you can't really do a double blind trial if some of the participants have to sit with their feet in icy water, now, can you!!!!!!!!!!

steph2412 Mon 21-Jan-13 23:50:50

My ds is 4 and in nursery in wet snowy weather i send him to school in snow suit wellys hat scarf and gloves and school shoes in a carrier bag. his teacher commented on thursday that 5 children in her group needed help getting snow suits on which is why they were runnibg late. He puts everyrhing on himself struggles with snowsuit and glove which the teacher helps with i know hes always warm for outdoor play which kids love!

LtEveDallas Tue 22-Jan-13 06:32:21

Thankyou withgreatpower, appreciate it smile I wouldn't know how to google for something like that!

So: The 18 participants who came down with symptoms of a cold also reported that they were more likely to suffer colds during the year than did the 162 who remained healthy The result was statistically significant at p = 0.007.

And: There was no evidence that chilling caused any acute change in symptom scores (P = 0.62)

And: It's those people who are prone to developing a common cold when they are chilled -- they've already got the virus, but the chilling is actually reducing their respiratory defense."

Seems to say to me that if you are already prone to getting cold etc (low immune system maybe) then the cold could make you more likely, but if you are generally healthy then it won't.

DD hardly ever gets colds/illnesses, and when she does seems to shrug them off really quickly (Swine Flu for eg, she was climbing the walls as was I by day 3, but our neighbours children were out of it for a full week). So her being cold/wet wouldn't necessarily mean she'd get a cold, because she isn't prone to colds under normal circumstances.

Some people are 'sickly' I suppose, so it makes sense to keep them wrapped up.

DIYapprentice Tue 22-Jan-13 09:57:32

They also believe (have a look at the Cardiff University Cold Centre website) the iceberg concept for viral infection. Hadn't really considered that but it does make sense to me. The pointy tip is those with severe symptoms, you then move down to a greater number with mild symptoms, then futher down to an even larger number of those infected without symptoms, and then the greatest number of those exposed but no infection. So those infected without symtoms would quite likely get ill if they got wet/cold for an extended period of time. Those exposed could also become infected if they get wet/cold.

An interesting site, actually. (And if you live in Cardiff you can apparently becomem a volunteer and get paid to go in at the first sign of a cold and take new medications that they are testing!)

BitOutOfPractice Tue 22-Jan-13 10:04:14

RooneyMara did youreally keep your kids off school just in case they got wet when playing out?! Really?

Why not just send wellies in?

I've heard it allnow!

RooneyMara Tue 22-Jan-13 11:47:55

I didn't keep him off. I took him out of school, not just for this issue but several others. He was too little to cope.

He went back in y1 and was fine.

FeistyLass Tue 22-Jan-13 12:13:58

MardyArsed I was out every day when I was a child and my ds is out every day too. I bet your granny made sure you were dressed appropriately. That's the point.

seeker Tue 22-Jan-13 13:00:30

But the fact remains that going out with wet hair does not, under any circumstances, give you pneumonia.

PavlovtheCat Tue 22-Jan-13 13:05:40

I send DD to school with wellies on her feet, her school shoes in her bag, and a spare pair of tights. If she gets wet/forgets to put her wellies on etc, she can change them.

DS aged 3 has spare wellies at nursery and goes with a full change of clothes.

it's common sense to do that?

PavlovtheCat Tue 22-Jan-13 13:09:03

although to give much credit to the nursery, and foundation/reception year they provide spare wellies, and waterproofs for all children, so if they don't come with any, they can still play outside in wet weather.

At DS nursery, they recently had them all in full waterproofs and wellies doing 'commando training' in the mud in their little 'forest' grin. I bet the OP would have been shock at that...they didn't even ask us.

RooneyMara Tue 22-Jan-13 13:14:24

Sounds like fun Pavlov.

The thing is though not all kids are capable of putting on a spare pair of trousers/tights/etc or will remember to do so and not all schools will remind them or help them to do this either.

I'm talking about very little children, like the OP's son. Mine is 5 and he can just about dress himself now - but the school was useless when he needed medication last term. Two days running he didn't have it at lunch because people forgot to remind him/send him to the office. So I kept him at home for the rest of the course.

RooneyMara Tue 22-Jan-13 13:15:21

and I realise that's a different situation but just wanted to illustrate that schools can be really hit and miss on this sort of stuff.

PavlovtheCat Tue 22-Jan-13 22:50:01

i guess so, surprises me that some teachers don't help, but, DDs school is very into helping nurturing, caring, that is a huge part of them, and it is small. so, where teachers don't/can't help, other children do/are encouraged to. DD often has her hair put back up by a teacher when it has fallen out, had her wellies put in her bag today (she would not remember to do that!). they are encouraged to do it all themselves of course.

And if she had soaking tights, and a spare pair, she would definitely be offeres some assistance changing, if she was a year younger (6 now).

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