Foxes

(265 Posts)
LatteLady Sat 19-Jan-13 23:08:30

Just before I went out to supper tonight, found my next door neighbour in tears coming up her front path... her cat had been savaged by foxes. From the sounds of it, Ralph a sleek cream cat with a ginger tinge will need to be put down as the fox has ripped open his under belly.

This is the third incident in our area over the last week, another lady was walking her dog and had to get between the fox and her dog and then got attacked too.

Am I unreasonable to think that there should be a method of culling this urban menace?

Bluestocking Sat 19-Jan-13 23:10:17

Please have my very first biscuit to go with your latte.

ThatVikRinA22 Sat 19-Jan-13 23:12:21

the foxes around her are all very shy and ive only ever heard of one genuine fox "attack"

are you certain this is genuine? and definitely a fox?

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:12:47

Does that mean we can start culling other things which are urban menaces?

Hunt down Peter Andre maybe?

Possibly 4 x 4 drivers?

WorraLiberty Sat 19-Jan-13 23:13:00

We're overun with foxes in this area and there have been no reports of them attacking cats. How do you know it was a fox that attacked it?

Also, they run like the clappers when they see my little JRT

So it's weird.

highly unlikely to be a fox IMO

more likely someone's Been At The Cheese <taps nose>

Bluestocking Sat 19-Jan-13 23:15:01

Lads with their undercrackers hanging out over their jeans? That's a right menace around here.

LatteLady Sat 19-Jan-13 23:15:50

Sadly, yes I am certain, the foxes here are not in the least bit shy and have been becoming more and more emboldened to say nothing of the mange which many of them carry.

Bluestocking Sat 19-Jan-13 23:15:53

Been at the cheese?
Foxes do like cheese. Ham goes down well too.

LST Sat 19-Jan-13 23:16:30

Can't see it being a fox tbh. My timid tabby chases foxes twice the size of him out of the garden...

Bluestocking Sat 19-Jan-13 23:16:41

Sounds more like the work of a wolef to me.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:17:02

Hunt down Peter Andre maybe?

PMSL.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 19-Jan-13 23:17:23

I watched my very elderly cat seeing off a fox once. Teas very funny. A cat can easily see off a fox. I'm hoping we get more cubs in the garden this year as they are ridiculously cute...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Sat 19-Jan-13 23:17:45

Teas = Twas

LatteLady Sat 19-Jan-13 23:18:23

The fox set off a security light in the garden, her husband saw it go for the cat, but unfortunately was not quick enough to get out there... so yes, I am sure.

gotthemoononastick Sat 19-Jan-13 23:18:28

Our foxes would never ever hurt a cat or baby.....

lurcherlover Sat 19-Jan-13 23:18:55

The fox is native to this country. The cat and dog aren't. Sorry, but I think the fox has more right to be here.

WorraLiberty Sat 19-Jan-13 23:18:59

I get the occasional fox wander into my conservatory but as soon as it spots us through the glass door, it's off like a rocket.

confused

LineRunner Sat 19-Jan-13 23:19:15

Very, very unlikely to be foxes doing this.

No, there is no way that city councils will 'cull' foxes because the problem is the carrying capacity of the land - i.e. as long as there is food the foxes will breed to fill the territories; and as long as there is territory they will breed to fill it.

If people stopped leaving food lying around it would help to naturally decrease fox, pigeon and rat populations.

Narked Sat 19-Jan-13 23:19:19

Bollocks.

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:19:25

Could just do it anyway StickEmUp? grin

Just for the craic of it.

ThatVikRinA22 Sat 19-Jan-13 23:19:31

i suspect this is a case of a fox fit up...

and yabu.

Narked Sat 19-Jan-13 23:21:36

I think I might be lactose intolerant.

steppemum Sat 19-Jan-13 23:21:52

sounds like you have a problem fox, I can't imagine that healthy cats are normally prey for foxes. I would try phoning council etc to see if they can do anything if there is a problem fox

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:22:03

I like the way your expressive exploration of the English language has shaped the form of your post Narked.

Tweasels Sat 19-Jan-13 23:22:33

"Ralph a sleek cream cat with a ginger tinge"

Relevant?

But YY to culling Peter Andre

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 19-Jan-13 23:22:43

YABU.
biscuit
We have built our homes on their habitats. Tough tit if it hunts your cat/bins.

Britain goes mad when we hear about a man killing tiger being shot in India because they're endangered and man has built on their habitats. Same argument applies to foxes (maybe not endangered yet).

That's animals for you.

Where I live I'm more concerned about the dodgy kebab shop down the road than foxes re my cats.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:23:10

Agent everyone I know in RL loves him, I've hated him since Mysterious girl and honestly I feel so alone in my hatred.

He even opened a shop in my home town JUST TO PISS ME OFF

Oh, and DH saw him get out of a ferarri in a petrol station, revving it.
Attention Seeking TWAT

I#d love to meet him just to tell him he's a poo.

In the upside, despite his Short fingers he's not so short and dumpy in RL.

<Goes to call my Therapist>

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:23:57

I'd like to see a fox try and take on our DCat2, she'd fucking have 'em.

usualsuspect Sat 19-Jan-13 23:24:16

I don't believe you,because no one would call a cat Ralph.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:25:43

Seriously though every time someone says Peter Andre a fairy in Neverland dies.
Dont.

grin

WorraLiberty Sat 19-Jan-13 23:25:55

I read that as Ralph was sleek with a ginger minge confused

Narked Sat 19-Jan-13 23:26:01

I love MN.

So we need to start lurking near the bins with humane traps and bottles of St Tropez? I may have gotten confused.

LineRunner Sat 19-Jan-13 23:26:31

Is it pronounced Rafe, though?

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:26:54

You've been wronged StickEmUp, wronged!

He's harassing you.

And to be surrounded by such people must be difficult, you poor thing sad

Bluestocking Sat 19-Jan-13 23:27:19

Does a fairy die if you type Peter Andre or only if you say it out loud?
What happens if you say it five times - is it like Candyman?

LineRunner Sat 19-Jan-13 23:27:27

Peter Andre really loves his fox cubs.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:28:52

Agent I know, He's from halfway across the world and I'm his biggest hater and he came to my town.
<outs self>

I'm just glad I've not bumped into him.

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:29:27

I shared a photo yesterday on fb that said 'Every time you share this, a Justin Bieber fan dies'.

It's true isn't it?

Or I wasted my fucking time otherwise.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:29:40

Blue I think I killed a couple.

If you THINK his FACE one dies.

Best avoid, from now on.

neveronamonday Sat 19-Jan-13 23:30:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:30:46

What was it off? JB's only face pube up close?

Bluestocking Sat 19-Jan-13 23:32:13

Oh dear, StickEmUp, I just went and googled the DM link about P*t*r A*d*e's coffee shop in Brighton - I can hear the fairies falling out of the sky like the rain of toads in Magnolia. sad

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 19-Jan-13 23:33:02

Can I just join in to say I too hate PA? I thought I was alone!

the foxes in my back garden are vicious, have went for me, DH, and my dog. (and my other dog who has since passed on).

there's a man 2 streets away from me who's turned his back garden into a sort of sanctuary for stray cats- he's done his shed up with warm blankets, water & food bowls, cat beds, scratching posts, all sorts, for years all the strays hung about there, a few even had their litters there. two years ago the foxes from his street mauled almost all of them sad . (when i was a teenager, i found the dog fox from his street, the vixen & their litter at the time surrounding & attacking my mums cat, and when i saved her they went for me at first until i frightened them away.) however, last year the man had an abandoned fox cub (poor thing got pts in the end) and he had another cub which sort of adopted him, went to the shops with him following him to heel like a dog etc.

the ones from my mums street (inbetween mine & the man's) used to chap my mums door for her cat to come out to play (seriously) so i don't think you can say either way whether they're dangerous or not. i certainly don't think they should be culled, that's horrible.

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:34:37

The piccy is of a grumpy old cat (cat's words, not mine) SEU, so that'd tie in nicely with the imagined poor cat who was mauled by the foxes.

Do I get extra points for sharing it with MN?

LilQueenie Sat 19-Jan-13 23:34:47

yabu animals have as much right to be here as we do. Would you cull cats if one ate a mouse?

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:35:08

blue that made me laugh OUT loud for real.

Ive never seen him round here. I await the Sighting <growls>

I thought when he split up from KP he'd fuck off out of sussex.

No Such cunty Luck

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:36:04

Poor Cat!

He's not grumpy, he's seen a fairy die from all this JB and PA mentioning.

oh dear, took so long the threads moved on blush

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:37:58

I'm quite upset now, it's bed time and I have PA on the brain.

<brain bleach>

Fanks.

TinyDancingHoofer Sat 19-Jan-13 23:38:15

I don't believe you! My cat is scared of worms and yet it chases foxes. They aren't shy though, one got in my neighbour's van.

AgentZigzag Sat 19-Jan-13 23:38:26

I think Peter Andre hating was a big thing somewhere on MN Alisvola?

Can't remember which thread it started on, possibly had a spinoff clique thread/group of posters?

Foxes can and do kill cats, we lost one to this just 3 weeks ago. No doubt it was them, they have a den in the neighbours garden.

StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:41:53
StickEmUp Sat 19-Jan-13 23:57:08

SEE MY LINK TO PA KILLED THE THREAD
<outed my link>

stopgap Sun 20-Jan-13 00:08:03

Different canid, I know, but the typically timid coyote had become more emboldened over the years, as the urban sprawl encroaches onto its territory. People have become sloppy, leaving food out etc. and it's definitely had an impact.

http://articles.courant.com/2012-03-09/news/hc-ct-coyotes-killing-dogs-0312-20120309_1_large-coyote-coyote-population-small-dogs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans

TinyDancingHoofer Sun 20-Jan-13 00:10:53

There is no question foxes have got bolder over the years. I do wonder if the hunting ban made a difference. When hunting was around they were chased and so had reason to hide whereas now they don't. Any thoughts?

I don't know TDH but the ones in my MIL's garden, where our poor cat got killed, are bold as brass. I was out looking for her, shouting at the top of my lungs in broad daylight and they just carried on wandering around the garden. They are fearless here.

Today in the snow there were 2 sets of paw prints. Too big to be cat. More like dog prints but I don't have a dog.
The garden bloody stinks of fox piss.
And in the summer there were 2 adults+ 2 cubs on the neighbours garages at the bottom of my garden.
I threw pears (from my tree) at my wooden fence to scare them.
They just glare at me with their spooky yellow eyes.

I know they would love my 2 guinea-pigs (who have a Fort Knox style house). Which is why they prowl round.
I'm a mild mannered vegetarian type and I make sure they can't get my guineas.
But I would shred one if it tried.

TinyDancing possibly the ban on hunting has made it easier for the weaker ones to survive too.
They only dead ones now are run over.

And people like my neighbour who feeds them hmm.

Narked Sun 20-Jan-13 00:28:15

How many birds do you think a hunting cat kills in it's lifetime?

No idea Narked, I don't and never have had a hunting cat.

Narked Sun 20-Jan-13 00:33:00

My SIL has one that hunts. It's prey of choice is mice/voles/frogs. It manages about 5 a week during the summer.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 20-Jan-13 00:33:32

I would get behind a shoot pidgeons and seagulls cull, foxes around here are like others have said very timid and run away as soon as they hear you coming.

Should clarify - my cat was a house cat. Never ever been outside. My MIL accidentally let her escape.

Judging by how she was found, she was killed for sport rather than food. Both her breeder and our vet were unsurprised to hear of a cat being killed by a fox, both having seen it numerous times before.

IncognitoIsMyFavouriteWord Sun 20-Jan-13 00:37:36

is it just city foxes that are like this because my country cats practically live outside all summer and they've come to no harm from a fox.

(ps I know the thread kind of moved on but I refuse to give attention seeking pricks any attention grin )

BunFagFreddie Sun 20-Jan-13 02:28:58

It sounds very unlikely that a fox would attack a cat or dog.

Even if it did, we can't just kill of our native fauna because a few pets get bitten.

recall Sun 20-Jan-13 02:33:30

Ha ha haaaaaaaa @ Bluestocking grin....wolf HA ! You share my humour.

recall Sun 20-Jan-13 02:36:34

70isalimitnotatarget that is just bonkers !

TinyDancingHoofer Sun 20-Jan-13 02:37:52

One of my cats gets maybe 3 birds a week and 2 mice/voles a day. The other will catch one mouse a month but doesn't kill it, just gives it to mehmm

I guess the only thing that kills them are cars, other foxes and diseases, so yeah, the weaker ones aren't getting weeded out. Don't badgers hurt more pets? They can be quite feisty beasts.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 20-Jan-13 02:42:20

My cats hunt. One of them is very outdoorsy and I think mostly lives on the animals he catches.

I think keeping cats indoors their entire lives is cruel.

Animals eat other animals,as do we (a lot of us). Circle of life and all that.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 09:07:44

There is no question foxes have got bolder over the years. I do wonder if the hunting ban made a difference. When hunting was around they were chased and so had reason to hide whereas now they don't. Any thoughts?

I wouldn't have thought it had time to have much effect on urban fox behaviour. Anyway I think most people would agree that it's a good thing that we don't still chase an animal to a very violent death in the name of sport any more.

chickydoo Sun 20-Jan-13 09:16:54

I had a fox wander in to my kitchen last year, I shouted at it, it ignored me then threw up on the kitchen floor, it then wandered off...I was really shocked.... Worst bit..... The vomit was crawling with worms, which I had to clear up....yuck...

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 20-Jan-13 09:21:19

YANBU. Urban fox population is way out of control, councils will not deal with it the way they will other kinds of pest and, when food is short, foxes are perfectly capable of killing something like a cat. Horrible creatures.

Montybojangles Sun 20-Jan-13 09:25:03

Used to live in north London. Had one big, grumpy Tom cat. Foxes often used to come through the garden at night. Watched one attack him once...it soon learnt a lesson- don't mess with a big grumpy Tom. If it had been my other scaredy cat though it would have been a very different ending sad

redexpat Sun 20-Jan-13 09:25:30

I believe you. YANBU.

loveschocolate Sun 20-Jan-13 09:26:19

They can be really aggressive , particularly if their cubs are about. We had one growling in the garden and threatening to attack a person yesterday as it's cub was nearby. Not surprised domestic pets are being attacked and suspect won't be too long before a child is injured.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Sun 20-Jan-13 09:29:59

Oh gosh how awful. Poor kitty
It's very rare but it does happen.
My cat and fox had a stand off on my drive recently I was shitting it. Luckily the fox ran off.

Loquace Sun 20-Jan-13 09:39:10

won't be too long before a child is injured

Didn't that already happen? A year or so ago, no? A pair of twins got scratched and bitten in bed or something.

I live in the middle of the Italian countryside and have seen exactly ONE fox in 9 years. And that one was dead. Chicken owners are more afriad of these evil buggers than foxes these days.

Have all the foxes moved into British towns or are there still good numbers in the countryside ?

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 09:53:33

Will foxes kill my cat :-https://www.sutton.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=

This is very rare; a survey in north-west Bristol, where foxes were particularly common, showed that they had killed 0.7% of the cats each year, and these were predominantly young kittens. This suggests that your cat is far more likely to be run over, stray or die from a variety of other causes.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 09:55:28

I messed the link up it should have been https://www.sutton.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=11504

FogClearing Sun 20-Jan-13 10:12:42

Peter Andre loves a fox, he needs a new angle for his show.

local Fox chased my dd and I suspect it is the same one who tries to get in the catflap after the cat.

Groovee Sun 20-Jan-13 10:25:23

I felt threatened by a fox too. My neighbour told me her eldest dd was chased home from the corner by a fox. We reckon we have a family living in the trees nearby and some are braver than others :-(

They regularly tried to get our rabbit but the hutch was fox proof. Then one night a guinea pig went missing further along the street and we saw the fox with something which looked like a guinea pig :-(

andtheycalleditbunnylove Sun 20-Jan-13 10:55:03

foxes are cheeky. they will come into your house to get your rabbits. they rip the heads off the rabbits. they don't want the rabbits for food, they leave all the remains behind, they just like to kill. not my rabbits, by the way, other people's.

they'll do it to babies too, if they can. but so would your dog and any passing dog, so think on it.

i don't mind the local fox when its strolling past or looking down from the top of a wall. i don't like it so much when it comes up to the back door to try to find a way in, the rabbit-murdering bastard.

CogitoErgoSometimes Sun 20-Jan-13 11:00:16

"Have all the foxes moved into British towns or are there still good numbers in the countryside ?"

They haven't moved into the towns as such but, because the food supply is better where you have lots of dustbins, small pets, litter from takeaways and stupid idiots that actually feed the buggers ... hmm... their urban population is exploding unchecked and they are not timid in the slightest. Rural foxes don't have the same access to food and they are generally more timid.

Councils will send people out if you have problems with rats and mice. Foxes are not on the list.

Loquace Sun 20-Jan-13 11:20:50

stupid idiots that actually feed the buggers

Won't that "unlearn" them their natural skills and make them dependant on humans...who have a tendency to get bored or got off creatures rapidly when they show their not so cute wild nature ? Leaving foxes vulnerable to lost skills, hunger etc.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 12:06:33

OK. I am a conservationist (wolves) and I work with a number of scientists, anthropologists and biologists.

Foxes are not evil. They kill to eat and the reason why they may kill and not take the bodies is two-fold:

They react to species-specific behaviour (new phrase for instinct) when animals (such as chickens in a coop) make a noise. They kill.

They often bury the bodies - a cache - so that they can return to eat.

They very rarely attack anyone unless threatened...stories (like this fiction attempt from our OP) are ridiculous.


Foxes are not considered vermin but yes, if you feed them their populations will grow. So will the rat population.

I have chickens. It is MY responsibility to keep them safe and I am amazed how many people say 'Oh the fox got my chickens - I must have forgotten to put them to bed last night.'

How to deter a fox:

Get a male to pee around the garden - it has to be a male, dear feminists and yes, it annoys me too! This effectively scent-marks the garden.

Get a dog. They really don't like coming in a garden with a dog.

Get a sonic Foxwatch device. Not proven but I have two and have seen foxes avoiding it.

Never shoot a fox. Another will simply move into their territory...very quickly.

Foxes are not the devil and I really get tired of people with their hysteria. If there genuinely is a problem - not hearsay - then there are people who can help. I think a company called Fox Solutions are good.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 12:13:07

Oh and people use all sorts of emotive language about wolves too. I actually had a chat about it to the Arctic wolf who was sniffing my bottom and licking my shoes some time ago. He looked hurt.

These are animals. People are a lot more brutal/evil/sly.

maddening Sun 20-Jan-13 12:32:09

My parents livw rurally and now their cat is getting old she keeps him in at night - in the night you can hear lots of foxes - I think there must be quite a few living close.

But they should be protected - our wildlife is v important and should be preserved - we need to learn to live with them. Also in this weather they will get more brave - maybe put food out for them?

Longdistance Sun 20-Jan-13 12:46:49

I believe you too.

We used to live in a very large town, north of London, and where we lived, there were lots of 'urban' foxes. They would be out during the day shock I kid you not. My db took a photo of an old mangey fox roaming in a huge back garden.

My cat went missing, so I don't know if they had him sad

I'm with you on the cull.

<ducks with hard hat>

MrsTomHardy Sun 20-Jan-13 12:48:52

I have a problem with foxes here too.
I too have dogs, chickens and cats.

The foxes are not bothered by my 2 dogs sad

A few years ago one of my cats was found in pieces under a neighbours caravan (tail and head not attached, body all mangled) sad

The foxes live across the road in the local allotments.....occasionally you can see them during the day wandering around the school field!

LatteLady Sun 20-Jan-13 12:52:37

Just to let you know, Ralph had to be put down... injuries he sustained were just too much. The family are really upset as he was a much loved pet.

The vet also confirmed that this was not the first or only case he had seen and that in our area it is sadly becoming much more common. sad

andtheycalleditbunnylove Sun 20-Jan-13 12:55:23

punkatheart: I am a conservationist (wolves)
fucking hell. i always knew there was something about you.

i still don't like foxes though.

Bluestocking Sun 20-Jan-13 12:57:39

<now slightly in love with punkatheart>
See, you lot? All this fox-phobia is just stupid. And they do not kill cats.

Dawndonna Sun 20-Jan-13 13:01:10

I'm rural. I have a tiny (Cavalier King Charles) dog that chases off foxes.

Such a shame LatteLady.

LaurieBlueBell Sun 20-Jan-13 13:04:10

We have a fox that we feed. It comes to our garden gate at around 6pm every night and waits for me. I take out some eggs and any left over meat. It is very timid but knows me so will come close.
Several years ago we had a young cub that used to come and eat from my hand . We had several cats at that time. I would often see the cub playing in the garden with the cats if I looked out late at night.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 13:22:03

That would be the smell of wolves, andtheycalled.

www.ukwolf.org

Certainly an emotive subject and interesting (from an anthropological point of view) - the words that are used for Mr Fox..he is always sly, cunning, stealthy. A friend of mine, in a deep discussion, blurted out 'Well they are ginger!'

Not the best concluding statement.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 13:23:36

Wolfy apologies:

www.ukwolf.org

Narked Sun 20-Jan-13 13:33:04

PLEASE don't feed them. It is not good for them - it's much safer for them to stay shy and run away from humans.

<joins the Punkatheart fan club>

Punk why do you have to be so far away from where I live, I'm going to bookmark that site and drop hints at DH. smile

D0oinMeCleanin Sun 20-Jan-13 13:39:05

I'm sorry I don't believe it.

Where we walk our dogs there are loads of foxes. Judging by the amount of poo my dog finds, there are bloody hundreds of the things. We rarely see them and when we do they are running away from us. They're horrified of even our smallest dog.

One particularly brave fox approaches the flying whippet from time to time, they play with each other, then the fox scarpers when we approach.

I've seen one once without my dogs. I putting rubbish out at the fast food place I worked at as a teenager and spotted one approaching the bins as I was, it froze in fear, stood staring at me for a few seconds and bolted when I moved. It was certainly in no way aggressive.

There is a fox charity that gives out medication for mange or worms ( like the poor old thing that threw up in someone's kitchen).

If anyone is interested in keeping mange down.
I hate the vilification of foxes, I am sure that cats killing birds doesn't entitle people to shoot them.

I am in the middle of the country and brought up with hunting, I hate it.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 13:57:45

I like foxes, but they are wild animals, not pets, and I find are very keen to stay at a reasonable distance. They will retreat from dogs, people and even territorial cats.

It is a bad idea to try to feed or pet them as they will learn to approach people, some of whom may not like it.

Some are horribly ill due to mange, and will be driven insane by the pain and irritation, will behave very oddly, may steal food, run into traffic.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 13:59:58

p.s.

beware of the websites. At least one offers a homepathic (FFS) remedy for mange, and presumably some people who don't read too carefully will think it actually works.

It's the national fox welfare society based in northants- that one is genuine, my vet rec them for mange treatment.
Homeopathy for foxes?! I hadn't thought of that.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 14:20:33

they're the homeopath people.

FFS

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 20-Jan-13 14:21:20

Toughasoldboots

I agree with you.

Britain fetishises every type of wildlife except it's bloody own.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 14:33:46

Some people REALLY love foxes:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkY7w8u6uEw

I would be deeply reluctant to cull if the need came....but I would rather that than hunting, which I deplore for many reasons. One good book is Fox by Martin Wallen - or anything by Professor Garry Marvin, who talks about our relationship with wildlife - through folklore, legend and our emotions.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 14:36:29

I must go and make some badges for my fan club...I have never had a fan club before. Signed photos? Gigs? Naked pictures in FHM? My head is swelling.

But I love having a passion and being able to work with the animals and people I do. Also meeting one very sexy author...sigh...and going walking in the woods with him and two wolves. That was......paradise.

grin oh dear, you are right piglet john. Must tell my vet that.

Cosmosim Sun 20-Jan-13 14:45:57

I leave leftovers in my garden for foxes. Fox leaves a few undesired poos staking its now even more precious territory at the very start. Then will protect my garden all the more from other foxes and definitely has no interest in my cats (one of whom thinks he's doug the dog from movie up and tries to befriend anything fluffy and mobile) If a fox went for a cat, I suspect they were fighting for food rather than fox was trying to eat the cat. (Luckily cats around here are well fed)

Doin, they may not do it to every cat see but some foxes do kill cats. I have the dead cat to prove it. My vet is a cat specialist and has seem several cases

TinyDancingHoofer Sun 20-Jan-13 14:50:39

Can i join the fan club punk?

coldinthesun Sun 20-Jan-13 14:51:45

My guinea pigs have been mauled by cats on my property.

Cats also are responsible for destroying a lot of British wildlife.

I actually think that if you allow your cat to roam outside, then foxes are simply a consequence and a risk you take.

I think that there should be a method of controlling the urban menace known as a 'cat', but there you go. Controversial, but we have far too many cats in this country and the rules about allowing them to wander freely are crap, especially compared with a lot of other places around the world, where it is actually illegal for them to do that.

I would quite like cat owners to take responsibility for their animals rather than thinking that have this royal untouchable status and that every other creature is inferior and clear the cat shit up that regularly end up in my garden

Absoluteeightiesgirl Sun 20-Jan-13 15:26:14

I can think of plenty other 'urban menaces'
I always find it amusing when people bleat on about foxes being vermin etc etc. The arrogance of being part of the human race I guess.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 15:40:28

Great point, Absolute. We are the cockiest animal of all.

Otheregos Sun 20-Jan-13 15:56:50

Usualsuspect my old cat was called Ralph! So I believe the op

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 16:18:34

Sometimes sadly a cat may be killed in a road traffic accident - which is very common and yes, a fox or other predator will take the body. So then foxes are accused of killing the animal. But unless you have actually seen the incident, it is not proof.

In the States, farmers have loved to get compensation for wolf kills. When experts come in, the truth is often very different.

somewheresomehow Sun 20-Jan-13 16:43:29

one of our foxes would come running if i called her didn't bother with my cats either also used the homeopathic stuff on her years ago and it cured her mange sadly she got killed on the road
if people know there are foxes in the area why keep animals like g-pigs and rabbits outside its asking for trouble, they may not get eaten but may get scared to death

Certainly in my case that would be pretty unlikely Punkatheart. My cat was a 14lb Maine Coon and was found in the garden hundreds of yards and several fences away from the roads. It would have been a serious challenge for them to drag her there.

Even the report linked to upthread admits that foxes do kill some cats, so I am not sure why even when people say they have witnessed it happen people are so determined that they are lying. Mine was not used to being outside, and had been missing for days so was probably weakened and an easy target.

And coldinthesun - cat owners can't win. If we let them out, we deserve for them to die apparently. Another poster upthread claimed it is cruel to keep cats inside (as I do).

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 16:50:52

Sign me up, Punkaheart.

You are abolsutely right. If you cull foxes, the population will just breed more in order to be able to 'supply' foxes to move into the available territory. Then you get more fox territory-fighting and the noise etc that goes with it.

To keeping the breeding of animals such as foxes, rats and pigeons to a minimum, people should simply stop leaving so much food available (often in cheap thin bin bags that an ant could rip open).

Foxes will take dead animals so if you see one with a dead cat in its jaws it's likely taking unfortunate roadkill.

freetoanyhome Sun 20-Jan-13 17:04:35

Cats are far far far more likely to be hurt or killed by cars. Do we see cat owners banning cars? No.

5hounds Sun 20-Jan-13 17:05:53

The only problem I have with foxes is when we walk my basset hound, it don't matter what you do she always hunts down and roles in fox shit!

bringnbuy Sun 20-Jan-13 17:09:14

i love foxes as well as cats. i live by a forest and have literally only ever seen CATS bullying local foxes. don't believe everything you read in the paper.

ConferencePear Sun 20-Jan-13 17:09:23

I wonder if this might be connected with the cold weather ? I live in the countryside and my house backs on to open fields. I know there are foxes about but since the cold weather they have been much braver about coming close to the houses in their search for food.

bringnbuy Sun 20-Jan-13 17:10:31

eggs, raw eggs, and cheese, they love cheese blue :-D

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 17:17:52

I am sorry that you lost your cat though, Stat. I love all animals and want to protect them all. Now I must go and tuck my chickens up. Don't worry they are already in their aviary...but they need to be locked into their coop to keep lovely and warm.

ThatVikRinA22 Sun 20-Jan-13 17:27:49

punk that you tube footage was shocking - again it says thats from 2012 - hunting with dogs is illegal and yet that clearly showed a hunt setting a pack of dogs onto that fox

its inhumane - the fox was tiny and very outnumbered - that woman was so brave to grab it like she idid. good on her. i hope she showed the footage to police.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 17:29:50
Millais Sun 20-Jan-13 17:36:10

Loquace do the Nutria eat chickens? I thought they only ate vegetation and insects. We have them in France and I've always seem them as cute but annoying rather than potential chicken eaters.

PessaryPam Sun 20-Jan-13 17:42:36

Urban foxes are a pet, rural ones are are and little problem. Blustocking should shove her biscuit where the sun don't shine.

PessaryPam Sun 20-Jan-13 17:44:12

lurcherlover The fox is native to this country. The cat and dog aren't. Sorry, but I think the fox has more right to be here.

Hahaha so you are the BNP of the fox lovers!!!

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 17:44:16

Nutria are most definitely veggie.

Paiviaso Sun 20-Jan-13 17:45:37

Haven't read the rest of the thread but:

Why is your first thought, "We need to kill the wildlife" rather than "We need to watch our pets?"

I think it's quite sad that any species of animal that manages to survive amongst our suffocating urban sprawl is considered vermin that should be exterminated sad

ThatVikRinA22 Sun 20-Jan-13 18:21:52

astounded at someone thinking nutria eat chickens! blimey. they are a type of water vole arent they?

a rare sight now in this country so lets just propigate rumours that they should be trapped and killed then hmm

some people.....

chickensarmpit Sun 20-Jan-13 18:27:01

We're over run with cats, can we have them culled? I haver never heard of foxes attacking and I live in the country.

PessaryPam Sun 20-Jan-13 18:33:00

I would give my first born child up to The Foxes if I had to,

signed the The Fox Huggers

MrsCampbellBlack Sun 20-Jan-13 18:36:10

I'm rural and hardly ever see a fox - deer much more common.

Punk - do you work where they filmed some of Wolfblood - my eldest is obsessed with that and wants to do one of the Wolf Walks.

thewhistler Sun 20-Jan-13 18:36:47

Latte, will clearly get flamed, but we are over run with foxes too and one of them sits on the other side of the road and just waits for our jrt pup to notice him and go mad. Fox completely unperturbed. You might say he was grinning if you were that way inclined.

Two nights ago it sounded as though jrt got seriously the worst of fox and jrt confrontation..am hoping that as jrt grows up fox population will give us a wide berth.

I hate: the bins being scattered, the guinea pigs being terrorized, the stinky poo, the fox fleas. The cubs are sweet to look at, most of the foxes are themselves handsome save where they have got mange, but they are a complete nuisance and I can't keep hens. We have with difficulty got rid of them from their den under the shed but they still have places they like to lie and sun.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 18:41:59

The fox is sick and needs killing. Normal foxes don't do that.

You are perfectly within the law to get a couple of hounds to get it too - You just have to shoot it yourself.

Loquace Sun 20-Jan-13 18:42:53

they are a type of water vole arent they

They are massive rat like things.

<shudders>

They do run off with chickens, according to neighbours who are often waving a shotgun about when the chickens start yelling and a rather sheepish looking nutria bumbles off going "what? what!"

Scare the shit at me when ai come accross them with the dogs. They bare their (MASSIVE) teeth, andnthen change their mind, shooting off into the rice fields while the dogs go all "don't you flash your teeth at my mum!?!" defensive and bristly.

The babies are cute. See them tumbling and boshing into each other in the field by the stream behind my bathroom window. Parents...not so cute.

<more shuddering>

It's the tail! Can't stand that rat tail on steriods.

thewhistler Sun 20-Jan-13 18:43:36

And I am originally from the country, and used to rural foxes. Who are much less obtrusive,imv, although when they get into the hen run that is it. No sense of restraint.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 18:43:40

Also, No the hunting ban doesnt affect urban foxes.
And anyway people still hunt. It's not totally illegal if you're clever about it.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 18:43:45

I think they filmed that oop North, Mrs C.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 18:45:08

And can we not start on hunters? Theres nothing wrong with it and the arseholes videoing people partaking are the ones that need locking up since they know jack all about the law.

MrsCampbellBlack Sun 20-Jan-13 18:47:43

Just checked Punk and they filmed a bit at your place with some of the wolves - DS is obsessed so I had to email and ask.

LynetteScavo Sun 20-Jan-13 18:53:56

Foxes are the feeble excuse reasons I don't have chickens.

I have seen one trotting down our road at midnight, and DS1 recently saw one in our back garden. Apparently our half blind cat, who usually paws pathetically at the cat flap as if it won't open properly, shot though it at 100mph. grin.

So, if they really are shy, and we've seen two recently, we must be riddled with them. DS2 tells me a neighbour knows they have a den (is that the right word?) in their garden. My Dsis, who lives near the center of a large town happily watches the fox in her garden (especially when it had cubs). She's scared of the badger, though.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 18:57:53

I stand corrected! There are lots of activities for children, especially during half term times....writing workshops, zookeeper days. Michelle Paver comes up quite a lot - she is absolutely lovely and I have never seen someone with such an astonishing affinity with animals.

Is your son aged 12 or over? I believe that is the min age for a walk. Walking with them...it's a real wow.

On the contrary, hunting with dogs is illegal, Dizzy. Dressing up in silly clothes, blowing horns and watching with glee while an animal is ripped to pieces is not hunting. It is well-heeled cowardice. A person who can shoot straight and kill humanely is a hunter.

coldinthesun Sun 20-Jan-13 19:01:43

Estimated number of foxes in Uk: 258,000
Estimated number of cats in Uk: 8,000,000

Hmmm.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 19:03:14

Punk - I didn't say hunting with dogs isn't illegal. I said hunting is legal if you are clever about it.

Drag hunting is legal, And if a fox 'crosses your path' and the dogs get it thats fine. This in itself makes the law ridiculous because it's nigh on impossible to prove the intentions of the hunt.

You can hunt as long as a bird of prey does the killing (worse than the dogs) and i think you can take as many dogs out as you like.

You can use 2 or 3 hounds to flush to guns. Again, worse. If you have to flush it out IMO theres no need to hunt in the first place as the place clearly isn't 'over run'.

I also find it hypocritical when anti hunt people sit there whining about laws while advocating the activities of groups such as the hunt sabateurs.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 19:04:57

Also, a healthy fox has a good chance of getting away from the hounds. It has no chance against a gun. Guns are worse than the hounds. I wouldn't turn a gun on a fox if i had a dog capable of doing the job.

LynetteScavo Sun 20-Jan-13 19:09:34

Really? If I were going to be killed, I would rather be shot than savaged by dogs.

I'm very sorry to hear the cat didn't survive. That's nature for you.

My cat was killed by a car a few days before Christmas day. That's man for you.

Let's cull the cars - they kill far more cats and people than foxes do.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 19:15:37

Lynette - Not if you were a fox.

Foxes are very fast for a start - If you do manage to get a hit it isn't going to be a one hit kill. It's going to limp off, get infected and die very slowly and painfully.

If a dog gets it its probably unhealthy so already going to die slowly anyway and the dogs will be done in moments.

The hounds are the better option here. If it's healthy it will get away. If it's sick it was going to die anyway, slowly and painfully.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 19:24:00

There has got to be something wrong with enjoying chasing an animal for miles until it is exhausted so that a pack of dogs can tear it apart. I wouldn't go as far as to say there is something wrong with the people who do it because mostly they have been brought up to think it's acceptable. As far as I'm concerned though I agree with the ban. It brought fox hunting into line with other laws against animal cruelty. If fox hunters respect the law of the land they should stay within this law just as much as any other law.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 19:27:41

Inde - But it didn't. It made it worse. The legal alternatives cause far more suffering for the foxes.

Personally, I have no strong feelings either way, I'm not out lobbying for it to be legalised again, But i don't like hypocrites.

I also don't like the idea of random vigilante groups out spying on members of the public (A la hunt sabs).

You'd tell me to fuck off if i came round your house now and said 'I'm going to check your computer because you could be breaking the law*.

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 19:34:37

Or people could just leave the fuckers alone Dizzy?

There's a thought eh?

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 19:39:09

Maybe we could leave rats and mice and cockroaches alone too then. Same thing. They cause us a problem, we get rid of them.

I dont agree with it where there is no problem though.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 19:42:51

I understand there's a lot of pleasure to be found in dressing up and killing wild animals for fun. You might like to try a hammer on a hedgehog if you can't afford a pink coat and the fees.

You could grumble about anyone following you, if you had a reputation for hedgehogging, and they saw you walking into the woods with your hammer and a bunch of chums.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 19:46:49

I don't think everyone here is against all hunting. I don't like it, but I am a realist. It's the methods used. A fox who is chased, then exhausted, then killed - no I disagree that there is something wrong with the fox. Trust me, they are TERRIFIED.

Don't get me started on the wonky science behind badger culling.

It is man's fault that foxes have come into urban environments. We are sloppy, wasteful.

There are other ways of controlling animal populations - contraceptive implants. Foxes can be caught in live traps and humanely killed.

I will never hear any reason for dressing up like pillocks and making a game of death. Sorry.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 19:48:20

If the people killing them are doing it cruelly then they should be criticised not supported. They should be working with the government to find the most humane way of doing it.
I'm very suspicious of all the propaganda put out by the likes of the Countryside Alliance and Daily Telegraph etc. anyway. Before the act came into force they said it would destroy thousands of jobs and all the dogs would have to be put down. It didn't did it.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 19:48:21

I would happily sabotage the bastards who go badger hunting in woods. Watch my blood boil at that.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 19:56:44

If the people killing them are doing it cruelly then they should be criticised not supported. They should be working with the government to find the most humane way of doing it.

Cruel is open to debate though. IMO hunting was fine the way it was, as it incorporated natural selection (When done traditionally and without dirty tactics just to ensure a kill).

You may disagree with that but niether of us can be 100% right because they are just opinions. You generally give up after a bit BTW if the fox isn't caught. You can't just go off chasing it willy nilly either.

The other thing about 'cruelty' is the people who cry it at the hunts, Yet support vigilante groups such as the hunt sabs who employ tactics such as;

Stalking hunt members (If i stalked randomers around a shop to make sure they weren't stealing id be arrested) to 'make sure' they aren't breaking any laws

Thinking they are above the law - Sorry but if someone is hunting illegally inform the police. You are not the police. You do not do the policing.

Attacking child hunt followers - They are not there to hunt, they are there to have a jolly good day out on their pony, they probably dont even realise a fox is being killed. It is not acceptable to drag children from their ponies to try to discourage parents from letting them go. It is highly dangerous to actively try to spook a pony to throw the child off. This should be classed as attempted murder IMO. It is disgustiong.

Netting hedges, throwing fireworks at horses, setting traps for horses - Oh you're concerned about animal safety? Yeah, but horses aren't animals are they so lets maim them, thats ok.

I could go on...

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 19:57:21

I understand there's a lot of pleasure to be found in dressing up and killing wild animals for fun. You might like to try a hammer on a hedgehog if you can't afford a pink coat and the fees.

If people did that then everyone would be up in arms. If you are against fox hunting though you are a class warrior apparently. I love the way the press loves to give false motives to people they disagree with.

Nicola80 Sun 20-Jan-13 19:58:52

Cats can be classed as an urban menace too! Cats can be quite evil towards small lovely little animals, such as birds. Does this mean we should cull them?
I am a huge cat lover I have one and back in her younger days she used to torture baby birds, for fun. It used to drive me mad how she could be so terrible, but she is classed as a wild animal by law and is doing what WILD animals will do. But because cats are pets people would be mortified to think of their beloved tiddles being pursued by the local lynch mob.
Foxes are probably just adapting to their environment to survive, the answer is not to go around killing them all. I am surprised though because foxes are usually so shy. These foxes sound like they are so used to humans and the urban environment that they are no longer afraid. I don't know the answers at all, all I do know is that killing them is NOT the answer. If its such a problem maybe the local community could club together to employ the services of a fox expert to help educate everyone on their behaviour and possible solutions.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:04:09

You can be against the excesses of fox hunting and the excesses of the saboteurs you know.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:06:12

If people did that then everyone would be up in arms. If you are against fox hunting though you are a class warrior apparently. I love the way the press loves to give false motives to people they disagree with.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My opinion is nothing to do with class. It's abuot not being hypocritical with your opinions.

I would be against someone hammering a hedgehog to death because it is unnecessary. Same as i am against someone flushing out a fox, or maiming a fox to ensure a kill or any other tactics that make it clear there is no real reason to be doing away with the animal in any way at all.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 20:07:17

Yes, Nicola - more science and intelligent solutions. And trust me, some of the stories about hunt saboteurs are not true. I would not of course advocate fireworks at horses - if that is true. Many many years ago, in my very wild and political active youth, I was involved in certain activities. So I know little bit about the inner workings of both sides.

As for children going along for a jolly ride - not entirely true. When you go for your first hunt, you are blooded on the forehead. Children will know very well what is going on. I also don't agree with dressing up bloomin' children to kill things for fun. It's repugnant.

There are many traditional country activities that are not desirable - cock-fighting, dogfights, harecoursing. We cannot keep hold of things because they are traditional. So was wifebeating, once upon a time. The world moves on and we reassess things - thank God for that.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:07:36

Inde - I'm against the sabateurs all together, on the basis that they are no more than vigilantes who think they are above the law. Anyone who says that fox hunters are wrong while supporting them in any way is a hypocrite. That's all there is to it. Be against fox hunting for all i care - But don't support actions that are essentially the same, if not worse.

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 20:08:24

'I understand there's a lot of pleasure to be found in dressing up and killing wild animals for fun. You might like to try a hammer on a hedgehog if you can't afford a pink coat and the fees.'

That did make me laugh grin

Hunting is in the same league as cock and dog fighting, badger and bear baiting, crucifying people and trial by ordeal.

All the same, and all totally and utterly unreasonable in the extreme.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:09:30

Punk - It doesn't matter what your group took part in. It is still nothing more than a vigilante group. As i said, I couldn't come round to your house now and demand to perform 'survelance' just incase you are comitting crime with your PC.

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 20:11:03

I take great satisfaction seeing vids of hunt saboteurs plying their trade, gives me a nice warm feeling that there are people out there prepared to put their money where their mouth is and do something about things they care about.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:11:16

I would be against someone hammering a hedgehog to death because it is unnecessary. Same as i am against someone flushing out a fox, or maiming a fox to ensure a kill or any other tactics that make it clear there is no real reason to be doing away with the animal in any way at all.

So you are trying to say that they chase a fox to death because it's the most humane way of killing them and nothing to do with enjoying it as a sport. But it's me who is being hypocritical.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:13:06

Agent - So can i follow you around with a group of balaclava clad, baseball carrying blokes, To make sure you're not breaking any laws? Only fair after all.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 20:13:57

I think that computer fraud and hurting animals are entirely different things, Dizzy. If I saw anyone hurting man or beast - I WOULD do something.

I agree with Inde that there is something sadistic and unpleasant about enjoying a creature's death. It should be a necessary evil, not a game to make you ruddy-cheeked and excited.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:16:22

So you are trying to say that they chase a fox to death because it's the most humane way of killing them and nothing to do with enjoying it as a sport. But it's me who is being hypocritical.

I didn't say anything about it being enjoyable as a sport. I said i think it's the best way. You don't 'chase it to death'. It won't die from being chased, It will die if the dogs get it.

I agree with this being done where there is a problem with foxes as i think it's preferable to trying to shoot them.

If they aren't causing a problem, then leave them alone.

How is that anything like hammering a random animal thats not causing a problem to death?

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 20:17:03

I've not got a blood thirst to kill wild animals Dizzy, if I did, you'd be very welcome to follow me round making sure I didn't 'accidentally' hunt any foxes.

If you don't want to encounter any hunt saboteurs, don't fucking hunt.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:19:27

Punk - But you could be downloading child pornography, that hurts people. You might not be, but you COULD be because you have a PC. So if you're not a hypocrite - Then that gives me the right to come and set up a surveilence team to make sure you're not breaking the law.

You have children. You might be comitting crimes against them - I have no evidence to prove this but you COULD be, so again, i should be able to follow you around to make sure you're not.

Thats the point i'm making - It is wrong for groups of people to stalk other people because they COULD be breaking the law. If you suspect someone is going to break the law, inform the relevant authorities. You do not go playing policeman yourself. If you SEE a crime being comitted and decide to interfere AS IT IS BEING COMITTED then ok, Stop it if you can. But don't stalk people just because they COULD be.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 20:20:43

Dizzy

If I had reason to believe that you were in the habit of breaking the law by driving your car home from the pub while tanked up, I would be within my rights to keep an eye on you and if appropriate call the police. In some circumstances I might have a duty to do that.

The police are not sympathetic to drunk drivers so I would probably have no need to video you, but I might feel the need to have witnesses and evidence if I thought you would otherwise get away with your crime.

As you say, I would not have the right to demand entry to your house in order to watch you, even if you had a history of child abuse.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:20:45

They chase it until it's exhausted and then the dogs kill it. Not really any better is it? I think you know as well DizzyZebra that fox hunting is a sport and even where the foxes are not a problem they will still hunt them.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:21:13

Agent - So, If i go out drag hunting (I don't hunt foxes BTW) and a group of sabs target me, By your comment there, If they don't want me to get off and cave their skull in, they 'shouldn't fucking follow me' when i'm doing jack all wrong?

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:22:54

Piglet - Yes, That is fair. Absolutely.

But you wouldn't just follow someone because they 'have' a car.

Yet the hunt sabs are allowed to do it because people have horses and are riding across country side following a rag thats been dragged across the ground. Because they 'might' be lying. Despite having no ecidence or reason to suggest they are.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:23:59

I think the hunt saboteurs encourage drag hunting don't they?

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:24:41

Inde - Yes i do know that. But it doesn't change my opinion on the best way of killing them. Which i think is traditional hunting. I don't hunt because i don't think there is much traditional about it. My points are that anti hunt people such as the hunt sabs are no better and are glorified thugs and it is damned hypocritical to support them if you are against cruelty to animals, Or think that you should have a right to go about your business without being followed.

Hear hear AgentZigZag!

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:13:06
"Agent - So can i follow you around with a group of balaclava clad, baseball carrying blokes, To make sure you're not breaking any laws? Only fair after all."

Dizzy, if she's out breaking laws that are there to protect other living creatures then I'll don a balaclava and join you. I doubt I'll need to start knitting one any time soon though.

How do those that deliberately cause harm to animals that have just as much right to inhabit this planet they do sleep at night?

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:25:23

Inde - They say they do, But they still target drag hunts on the basis that they 'could' be a cover for an actual hunt.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:27:33

Oldbag - Drag hunting is harming no body - Yet participants are still targetted because they 'could' be lying.

It is not fair to apply that without applying it to absolutely everybody who 'could' be comitting a crime or hurting somebody else.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:28:40

Inde - Yes i do know that. But it doesn't change my opinion on the best way of killing them. Which i think is traditional hunting. I don't hunt because i don't think there is much traditional about it. My points are that anti hunt people such as the hunt sabs are no better and are glorified thugs and it is damned hypocritical to support them if you are against cruelty to animals, Or think that you should have a right to go about your business without being followed.

Which comes back to my point that you can be against cruelty to foxes and against the saboteurs when they overstep the mark as well. I'm not arguing in favour of the saboteurs. I'm arguing against fox hunting.

Mintyy Sun 20-Jan-13 20:29:37

Would love to see a cull of urban foxes. They are an absolute pest and utter vermin. Hate them.

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 20:32:32

'Drag hunting is legal, And if a fox 'crosses your path' and the dogs get it thats fine. This in itself makes the law ridiculous because it's nigh on impossible to prove the intentions of the hunt.'

You've said it yourself Dizzy, you just can't trust hunters to not kill foxes.

They should be spied on, and followed, and people should notice what they get up to, they should publicize it so everyone knows what's going on.

It's creepy knowing some people get a kick out of watching an animal being ripped apart by dogs, whatever bollocks justification they try to palm people off with.

Wanting to hurt animals can be a good indicator of severely disturbed mental health.

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 20:36:27

Yes, there are many scientific studies to show that many vicious dictators and murderers got their kicks from animal cruelty...including Mussolini and Ivan the Terrible. So I agree with Agent. Often, when they discover they get kicks from it, they move on to human violence.

Empathy and compassion are important. Much more so than silly folk braying across the countryside.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:38:44

Agent - They should be monitored by the police. Not random members of the public.

You can't trust a lot of people - Doesn't give the public the right to follow them around when they are doing nothing wrong.

As i said, If you have evidence that a hunt is to go out with the intention of hunting an animal in a way that would break the hunting laws, intervene to stop it, And inform the police.

They're soon on to the police when their idiocy gets them a smack in the mouth. Why can't they just act like the rest of the population and report crimes to the police?

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 20:41:54

...when their idiocy gets them a smack in the mouth...

Pathetic post.

One of the reasons I respect MN is that it doesn't tolerate victim blaming.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:46:33

They're soon on to the police when their idiocy gets them a smack in the mouth. Why can't they just act like the rest of the population and report crimes to the police?

And with that post you have shown your true colours Dizzy and shown that Punkathearts point about violence to animals going hand in hand with violence to humans is perfectly true.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:46:51

Linerunner - Umm, hardly victim blaming? They attack people physically and then go complaining when they get one back? I'm sorry but if someone approached me wearing a balaclava, carrying a baseball bat, or brandishing anything to hurt my horse with and i had a whip yes i'd hit them with it, i'm not gonig to stand there while they beat me!

And can i direct you to the comment earlier 'Dont want sabs to get you dont hunt'? So if i don't want to be attacked by hooligans i have to obey the rules set by sme random group of thugs?

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 20:47:39

Dizzy

I don't keep an eye on people just because they have cars.

When I see a bunch of people staggering out of the pub on a Friday nioght, singing noisily, and wearing "beer is best" yellow jackets, I might pay more attention.

Similarly if I saw you walking into the woods with a bunch of chums carrying hammers and wearing your "Peckham Hedgehog Bashers" scarf.

If you were in fact just bashing fluffy knitted hedgehogs, then you might think it wasn't fair. Especially if you had already explained to me that you were going into a wood where live hedgehogs were to be found, and you only bashed them when, as sometimes happens, they unavoidably ran out under your hammer.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:47:48

Yes, showing my true colours. Fuck me i'm a terrible person for admitting i'd defend myself against criminals.

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 20:48:50

Because they know the police chiefs are on the hunt wouldn't be able to do anything?

I know of a few modern examples Punk, but the worst by a long shot is someone who used to know Peter Connellys murderer saying what he used to do to animals when he was younger (don't ask what it was, and don't google it (if it's on google that is) you're really better off not knowing).

Yes, when that compassion switch is in the off position, there has to be implications.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 20:54:58

I don't care about Peter Connelly. He has fuck all to do with the hunt sabs. Like i said, agree or disagree with fox hunting. I don't give a shit. There are more important things, But you cannot advocate a group of criminal vigilantes without being a total hypocrite.

There are ways of doing these things without resorting to the HSAs tactics. They are a disgusting, pathetic little group of low life cowards - They're no better than the hunts. If one should be banned the other should be. They have no purpose other than to terroize and attention seek. They cause more fucking suffering than they prevent.

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 20:55:11

It's not for you to decide who are criminals, Dizzy unless you are a magistrate.

Oh wait a minute ...

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 20:56:10

Yes, showing my true colours. Fuck me i'm a terrible person for admitting i'd defend myself against criminals.

I don't support the saboteurs but I've seen loads of cases of unprovoked attacks on them. Not the other way round. And yes your post did sound like you were glorifying the fact that they get assaulted.

Bluestocking Sun 20-Jan-13 20:56:23

Calm down, calm down. Can we all try and remember what this thread was about? You all seem to have forgotten that it's about how much Peter Andre loves his cubs.
Punk, you are so right about foxes being the focus of a lot of anthropologically interesting beliefs and behaviour in the UK. As this thread so clearly shows ...

Punkatheart Sun 20-Jan-13 21:03:38

'The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated

~ Mahatma Gandhi'

(1869-1948. Spiritual leader of India)

Bluestocking Sun 20-Jan-13 21:04:08

I like to bash woolly knitted hedgehogs with this. Unfortunately, I'm quite shortsighted, and often end up mutilating a real hedgehog, completely by mistake, of course.

inde Sun 20-Jan-13 21:04:12

AIBU to not really know who Peter Andre is and to not have any interest in him either. smile

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 21:06:25

He is orange, inde and he really loves his cubs.

A bit like Raynaud, I expect.

Bluestocking Sun 20-Jan-13 21:06:34

Not so much unreasonable, inde, more just lucky!

AgentZigzag Sun 20-Jan-13 21:06:48

Love your posts Piglet grin

Knitted hedgehogs accidentally getting under hammers has real media potential.

I presume you don't care about Peter Connelly in relation to this thread Dizzy, rather than you don't care what happened to him in a general way?

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 21:08:23

PigletJ, I just watched your youtube link. That 'fox and cat' [with two lucky magpies] is hilarious. The cat really doesn't give a shit.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 21:10:32

Inde - There are wrong doings on both sides for sure. I won't deny that - I'm not glorifying it, But i do think the sabs bring a lot of it on themselves - Especially in the cases where they have no reason to be there.

If i'm going about my perfectly legal activities and some idiot comes legging it over in a balaclava and full camo, brandishing a potential weapon, yes i will react first and they will not come off better. Why would i stand there and wait to see what they're going to do with that weapon? Who would?

If they had honourable intentions they'd be dressed normally for a start and wouldn't be brandishing weapons.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 21:11:11

Linerunner - Sorry, Did they make assault legal? If not, then i don't need to be assault to know they are criminals.

DizzyZebra Sun 20-Jan-13 21:13:15

I'm going anyway before this gets personal, Bluestocking there was no need for that comment. I don't hunt or hurt anything. Drag hunting is completely different.

It's not my fault the law is pathetically written and was just a ploy to get votes from the slightly less intelligent among us. If it weren't they'd have at least written it properly and closed the gaping loopholes!

Samu2 Sun 20-Jan-13 21:14:56

My friend heard this horrible noise in her garden last year and went to investigate.. a fox was mauling her cat and the cat died.

It is very rare, but it does happen.

LineRunner Sun 20-Jan-13 21:23:48

Am I unreasonable to think that there should be a method of culling this urban menace?

This was the original OP.

Yes, you are being unreasonable. For all the reasons given and attitudes revealed above.

NumericalMum Sun 20-Jan-13 21:42:31

Yabu. Our cats and foxes all live happily together with squirrels, pigeons and all sorts of urban wildlife. Now I might feel less annoyed by this post if we could cull squirrels...

PessaryPam Sun 20-Jan-13 22:31:41

DizzyZebra a minority view I am sure but I am on your side.

PigletJohn Sun 20-Jan-13 22:40:01

you mean in favour of drag-hunting?

Springdiva Mon 21-Jan-13 06:52:36

Sorry haven't read all the posts.

I can't see the difference between keeping a cat which maims and kills dozens of small birds and mammals in a year and keeping a pack of hounds which kills a fox every week for the winter months.

Just how is one right and the other wrong. Either both wrong or both right.

Or is it that townies keep cats and country folk keep hounds. And, sadly for the countryfolk, there are more townies than country folk.

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Mon 21-Jan-13 07:09:33

They do cull them in Hammersmith and Fulham. There was an article in one of the Sunday papers a few years ago about Fox squads who go round at night and pick them off with a rifle

Punkatheart Mon 21-Jan-13 08:34:36

Presumably illegal squads. Totally irresponsible to go shooting in a built-up area.

PigletJohn Mon 21-Jan-13 09:47:43

Most unlikely to be illegal squads.

Punkatheart Mon 21-Jan-13 10:23:01

The reason I say that is I can find no information about legal fox squads. I know that the council have no power to act.

Here are some interesting stats:

John Bryant, of the British Humane Wildlife Deterrence Association, has had a particularly busy few days, telling any newspaper that will listen that, in his 40 years’ experience, he has heard of only two cases of supposed fox attacks on humans: one of the perpetrators turned out to be a cat, another a German shepherd (a dog, presumably, not a Teutonic herdsman).Others have pointed out that last year 5,221 people, including 1,250 children, were treated in hospital in England after being mauled by man’s best friend: the dog.

PigletJohn Mon 21-Jan-13 12:34:08

in the parts of England where I've lived, anyone seen carrying or using a firearm in public is likely to be approached by police. Anyone who appears to be carrying or using one illegally is likely to be shot by police.

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Mon 21-Jan-13 12:35:16

Punk to be honest, I cant remember the article that well as it was some years ago (was around the time the fox savaged the baby in the cot) but I'm pretty sure they were in some way official-contracted by the council or similar because I remember being quite surprised. I think the council have the power to control vermin, so why not foxes- perhaps there is an official definition of vermin and foxes are included?

However, as I say, it was some time ago.

Punkatheart Mon 21-Jan-13 12:43:31

Councils don't have the right...actually they are opting out of many pest control services - giving it to private contractors...

RichManPoorManBeggarmanThief Mon 21-Jan-13 13:04:04

Yes but presumably they're still paying the private contractor so they're still effectively ordering the code red on rattus rattus. Could be the same with foxes.

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 13:15:51

Oh goody, a poor likkle persecuted foxy thread. My favourite.
In towns they are a parasite. They are becoming more and more troublesome, and just because people love them, doesnt mean that they dont attack dogs, cats and humans. Ive seen one worrying my foal. Its mother soon saw it off!
As for hunt sabs, they are no more than obnoxious paid rent a crowds, who are happy to injure people and horses in order to protect a fox. How is that moral?

gotthemoononastick Mon 21-Jan-13 13:52:40

Oh goody!..a stuipid idiot fox feeder thread! We even buy them free range eggs..love wildlife..missing the badboy Hyenas!

gotthemoononastick Mon 21-Jan-13 13:54:08

Rats chew babies at night,not foxes!!

Bluestocking Mon 21-Jan-13 14:04:52

More anthropology. "Vermin" is a term like "weeds", which just means plants somewhere they're not wanted. "Vermin" means a species in a place they're not wanted, by the person who's speaking. Some species are more generally agreed to be "vermin" than others, like rats. Foxes, however, are not regarded as "vermin" by many people, as this thread demonstrates, and there is little point in the "foxes are vermin" brigade trying to persuade these other people of the validity of their point of view. Or vice versa.

Punkatheart Mon 21-Jan-13 14:15:00

Councils don't pay private contractors. We the public pay them - it's a private agreement. Councils are washing their hands of the whole business.

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 14:24:38

*1. Various small animals or insects, such as rats or cockroaches, that are destructive, annoying, or injurious to health.
2. Animals that prey on game, such as foxes or weasels.*

^Wild mammals and birds that are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or that carry disease, e.g., foxes, rodents, and...
Parasitic worms or insects.
Synonyms
pest^

wild animals which are believed to be harmful to crops, farm animals, or game, or which carry disease, e.g. rodents:

1 a : small common harmful or objectionable animals (as lice or fleas) that are difficult to control b : birds and mammals that prey on game c : animals that at a particular time and place compete (as for food) with humans or domestic animals.

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 14:25:50

That was the definition of "vermin" btw. One of which was taken from the Oxford English Dictionary.

Punkatheart Mon 21-Jan-13 14:56:50

Mankind is harmful to crops (genetically modified crops, bad farming methods. They are also harmful to farm animals - battery hens, pigs that cannot turn around in their own pens, cameras catching inhumane slaughter methods. As for game - well you have lots of poachers killing hares. So man is technically vermin? As for carrying disease - man is ripe with that too...

This is not a stupid fox feeder thread gotthe...there has been a discussion here encompassing anthropology - namely the emotive response and historical/mythical context of our wildlife, proportional response and media hysteria.

Dogs attack people but no one calls for a ban or cull on all dogs. Cows kill people in farm situations - no one takes up a gun and strides around killing cows.

Personally I don't feed foxes as I feel animal populations, unless there are certain circumstances - need to grow to their natural size. But that is one small issue. More importantly we are talking about hating creatures who are deemed evil, sly etc. They are animals, trying to breed, eat and live in the world.

PigletJohn Mon 21-Jan-13 15:01:43

Saggy

your preferred definition of the word "vermin" encompasses hawks, squirrels and eagles, as well as field mice.

Where do you stand on the extermination of all wildlife?

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 16:20:45

I never said mankind wasn't vermin, and I never said vermin should be eradicated. Controlled when they get out of control and become dangerous is more my line.
Those were also the top 4 definitions of vermin when I entered it I to my search engine not MY preferred anything.
Just because you have a sentimental about an animal doesn't mean you can excuse its behaviour or make it something it isn't.
Fox are a pest when they are outside their natural environment, aka towns, and a nuisance when it is in its own environment. People who sentimentalise them make it worse. Mankind is a parasite on this planet, most animals are a parasite on some other species to some extent.

PigletJohn Mon 21-Jan-13 16:57:12

so what did you intend to convey by pasting in a definition of "vermin?"

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 17:45:26

It was in answer to BlueStocking definition.

PigletJohn Mon 21-Jan-13 19:37:24

Bluestocking said:

"there is little point in the "foxes are vermin" brigade trying to persuade these other people of the validity of their point of view. Or vice versa."

which I think is true.

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 19:43:01

So basically you is saying 'I am right and I dont care what you say'?

AgentZigzag Mon 21-Jan-13 19:56:01

'I am right and I dont care what you say'

That statement works for me smile

PigletJohn Mon 21-Jan-13 19:57:15

that's a very strange, and inaccurate, interpretation.

Is that they way you feel?

SaggyOldPregnantCatpuss Mon 21-Jan-13 20:21:06

Not at all.

LineRunner Mon 21-Jan-13 20:41:48

Councils and pest control - apparently they only have a statutory duty to control rats on their own land.

They have powers to control other 'pests' but more and more are not providing these services or are asking for contributions or are signposting residents to private contractors.

ThatVikRinA22 Tue 22-Jan-13 01:11:43

punk
ill join your fanclub.
<3

i love people with compassion for animals.
im all for humane traps. i kill nothing. yep. nothing, and i think foxes have as much right to exist as cats. (i have cats - i love them but i keep them in at night)

i think foxes are beautiful and i can see no justification for killing them in a barbaric way with dogs in which they have no chance of escape. hunting is barbaric as is badger baiting, cock fighting, hare coursing, blood "sports" should be banned - they are not sport. they are stacked in the hunters favour. i have long argued the case against hunting.

yes if they need culling then do it in a non barbaric way. but i believe most wild animals are self limiting - they will only breed based on the conditions.

i hated seeing that hunt video where the woman grabbed the fox from the hounds - it looked so small among those dogs and so outnumbered. its wrong. in no society should that be allowed. we call our selves dignified and humane - that shows the worst of human behaviour - to make a sport out of an animals suffering and eventual killing.

do that to a dog or cat and you would be prosecuted.
and rightly so.
so why is it ok to do it to a wild animal?
cats are pests to some people. if you rip a cat apart with a pack of dogs you will find yourself in court. (hopefully)

killing anything for sport is wrong in a civilised society.

Mimishimi Tue 22-Jan-13 01:24:23

Did you know that foxes are actually related to cats and not to dogs? I've never heard of foxes going for cats before.

PigletJohn Tue 22-Jan-13 01:43:09

related to cats and not to dogs

hmm

Abitwobblynow Tue 22-Jan-13 07:44:04

Repeating David Bellamy and Chris Packham's plea,

cat owners PLEASE don't let your cat out from dusk onwards. They are crepescular hunters (ie at night) and if every owner in Britain did this we could live with cats and birds in our gardens smile.

Bluestocking Tue 22-Jan-13 08:18:24

Crepuscular = dawn and dusk, actually. But yes, keeping cats in at their peak hunting times (dawn and dusk) is a good idea.

MrsTomHardy Tue 22-Jan-13 08:18:37

Easier said than done tho....in winter months my cats do tend to be in at night but during the rest of the year I hardly see them...how do you get them to come indoors when they are out and about??

LineRunner Tue 22-Jan-13 18:40:42

You feed them.

MrsTomHardy Tue 22-Jan-13 21:11:39

Mine don't eat indoors, they eat on the doorstep...they always have.
I've tried shaking the biscuit box when I want them in but that doesn't work....

ThatVikRinA22 Tue 22-Jan-13 21:35:56
maninawomansworld Thu 24-Jan-13 08:56:11

There is a great method, which I use frequently. It's called a rifle!
Seriously though, you'd get in trouble letting one off in a town (assuming you even know someone who posesses one) so I'd get together with the neighbours and call in a pest controller who can set a trap / trap for it.
After that, you can help yourselves by not leaving bins open, double bagging food waste so that they can't smell it as easily. They love thick cover to hide in so prune any overgrown areas in your gardens / near your houses so they can't use them for concealment.

Punkatheart Thu 24-Jan-13 09:27:30

I have already said this but killing a fox is useless. Another one will move into its territory almost straight away. The best way is by deterring it or, as maninawomansworld says, not leaving out any waste. Being frequently in your garden helps too...

theplodder Thu 24-Jan-13 10:17:59

foxes should be culled in urban areas. they are a menace.

Sallyingforth Thu 24-Jan-13 10:23:25

That would be pointless and ineffective. You clearly haven't read the previous comments.

maninawomansworld Fri 25-Jan-13 09:58:36

I tend to find that shooting a fox (out here in the sticks anyway) 'buys' you about 3 - 6 months before another moves in, unless it's in the spring then you might only get a matter of weeks.

ThatVikRinA22 Fri 25-Jan-13 21:43:48

so - whats the point in shooting it then man ? not being funny just seems to be a fairly pointless exercise if another moves in soon after....why bother to shoot them? For what reason do you shoot them?

PeachActiviaMinge Fri 25-Jan-13 22:24:44

Lots of twats about recently, god fucking forbid anything has a right to live if it does something we don't like and isn't a pet.

P.S Punkatheart - Marry me? The wolf walks - how amazing. My favourite animals.

ThatVikRinA22 Fri 25-Jan-13 22:33:55

also have a crush on punkatheart
does a brill job, talks sense, shows intelligence and compassion....i would. grin

Punkatheart Fri 25-Jan-13 23:22:46

You two are making me giggle.

In my worst times, I close my eyes and imagine wolves. I can't imagine a life without animals....

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