to think that this should not be happening in this country, regardless of which religion it is

(89 Posts)
BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 09:17:52
ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 18-Jan-13 09:20:24

YANBU.

delboysfileofax Fri 18-Jan-13 09:21:16

Its going to be an issue because penny-to a pound of shit, the EDL types will see this as a challenge and arrive there en masse at the weekend.

But also it shouldnt be happening- what other people do is none of their (the muslims) business

discorabbit Fri 18-Jan-13 09:23:11

seems to be to be an invitation for violence. just pisses me off that extremists have the time to get so worked up. they need to grow up and try being reasonable human beings

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 18-Jan-13 09:25:39

If they don't like it, they can piss off back to the countries they come from and good riddance. I am Muslim for that matter.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 18-Jan-13 09:26:13

Of course it is wrong using religion to try to control people is always wrong

but of course right wing groups are going to jump on this and will use it to justify their beliefs

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 18-Jan-13 09:29:24

Never met these types in my years of being Muslim but I would enjoy having choice words with them. I would also be asking whether they have jobs, claim uk benefits, about the state of their own countries.... It's people such as this that make my life difficult personally, because unfortunately this is how society starts to view us. Thankfully mumsnet is cultured and educated generally so it's taken with a pinching salt on here, but the reality of what the public thinks I dread to wonder. sad

ReallyTired Fri 18-Jan-13 09:32:03

If this is for real then I have every confidence that the police will deal with it. These people are not representive of British Muslims. Unfortunately muslims do have their fair share of idiots like every other section of society.

"If they don't like it, they can piss off back to the countries they come from and good riddance"

What do we do with them if they the are british born?

GrimmaTheNome Fri 18-Jan-13 09:35:48

Waynetta - I'm sure most Muslims take the view below - at least even the DM included this:

'Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a Muslim organisation which campaigns for a peaceful co-existence among communities, has condemned the group's behaviour.

He said: 'We live in the UK and we are governed by UK law, there should be no mob rule. If people are involved in this behaviour then it is worrying '

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 18-Jan-13 10:00:12

True grimma, but it still bothers me a lot. There's a lot of impressionable young guys getting really strong views from local religious centres. I know of two men that have been banned from the local mosques because of hardline views.

Sallyingforth Fri 18-Jan-13 10:08:04

If you look at the video, it's just a couple of yobs mucking about in the street to cause trouble. The Mail has swallowed the bait of course.
But there is a more serious general problem as evidenced by the Muslim march in Luton.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Fri 18-Jan-13 10:12:51

Religious extremists do no end of damage to their religions image. Do I have more respect/interest in their religion as a result? No, in reality I think less of that religion and the people who allow these idiots to damage their religion and its image.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Fri 18-Jan-13 10:14:16

* That's not the same group who shoved a load of homophobic bullshit in peoples letter boxes is it? confused

Twattybollocks Fri 18-Jan-13 10:18:54

Has no one ever been accosted by a God botherer in the street and been harangued about judgement day/the state of their soul? I know I have, and people standing on street corners preaching etc etc. not saying its right, but it's certainly not restricted to Islam!
I am a practising christian for the record, but I don't think making personal comments in this way ever converted anyone!

wherestheblinkingsnow Fri 18-Jan-13 10:19:45

Ah this is where this came from. A relative kindly "shared" this on his FB page and it came on my Newsfeed. As someone said, just a pair of thick, aggressive numpties who stuck a homevideo on YouTube. Why someone just didn't call the police I don't know (maybe they did but that didn't make the video?)

Yes, outrageous behaviour. Surely the police can trace the video-makers and do them for incitement? The comments afterwards are sick and it grieves me that this will incite a lot of trouble in that area as the EDL types jump on board for a ruck.

The fact that my relative chose to "share" this with me made me feel very uncomfortable. What can be the motivation I wonder??

I detest the idea of no-go areas in any city for whatever reason. Hopefully the police can work with people like the Ramadhan Foundation and work something out. There must be Muslim police officers - I wonder what the figures are?

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Fri 18-Jan-13 10:23:19

Yep been accosted by god botherers etc That does not mean I should have to put up with it. Do not force your views on to others and for the love of 'god' grab my arm as I walk away from you and your insane rant again and I will not be held responsible angry

Yes, I will burn in hell, if I did in fact believe in hell hmm but so will you, so see you there smile

Crinkle77 Fri 18-Jan-13 10:26:13

I would just laugh at them. Although is drinking on the streets not illegal anyway?

sad whatever beliefs a person has are their own. They may act according to their own set of beliefs and values. People need to accept that others think and feel in a different way to them and that's their right and whether they agree or disagree it is not right whatever religion you are to forcibly inflict it on others!

No one has the right to hound people!!

A few idiots like this give all those Christians Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs etc a bad name, when the majority just want to live in peace alongside everyone else.

crescentmoon Fri 18-Jan-13 10:33:18

"As someone said, just a pair of thick, aggressive numpties who stuck a homevideo on YouTube."

and yet this made it onto a major british daily. half the problem is these random extremists get media exposure but peaceful moderates get no exposure even if they are in the majority. i bet these 2 idiots are Al Muhajiroun - they get attention for every little thing they do i swear they have a symbiotic relationship with the media. guardian/ daily mail gets lots of clicks and advertising from drawing in readers who are outraged and the muhajiroun get the ego boost that they are 'big men'.
peaceful moderates even if they issue press releases and make statements its hard for it to get out into the mainstream because it doesnt suit the narrative thats told about Islam. so these stories frustrate me for those reasons. men in beards gave out 3500 roses in marble arch london in october and that was also posted on youtube. along with loads of other similar projects across the UK and western europe, even canada. but iv searched and searched online for any news stories and not a single article or mention anywhere.

Birmingham rose protest

the above video is just the birmingham muslim community's rose protest. at least those 1000 people will go home and say 'you know what these muslims are not all bad' even if no minor or major media outlet covered any of them.

BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 10:54:58

TwattyBollocks that's why I made it explicit in my thread title that this is wrong regardless of which religion it is.

It's almost akin to religious police.

Its absolutely disgusting. But its not a muslim issue. All religions have extremists who feel it is their job to tell the rest of us how to live.

If they dont like it then perhaps they should go to the muslim countries where these views are law. Even the British born. People from those countries come here, why shouldnt they migrate there?

If they arent British born then they really should fuck off back home. Its ridiculous to move to another country and then criticise the laws of that country.

KoalaTale Fri 18-Jan-13 11:10:53

Yanbu. However I do think the state of the streets on a Saturday night is pretty appalling.

Veritate Fri 18-Jan-13 11:14:28

"If they don't like it, they can piss off back to the countries they come from and good riddance"

For all you know, this is the country they come from. Unfortunately we've got plenty of home-grown idiots - why assume they're immigrants?

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 11:18:23

I feel really sorry for normal muslims who just want to keep themselves to themselves and do thier thing and not have this constant big spotlight shon on them ALL THE TIME - its always Muslims in the news - thats all we predominalty here about.

Seeks, Hindus, scientologists - catholics here and there more so - COfe occasionally- but in the uk and worldwide its always muslim extremists....

It must drive the everyday people MAD.

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 11:20:27

Brave girl on video for standing up to them.

ReallyTired Fri 18-Jan-13 11:20:49

"If they dont like it then perhaps they should go to the muslim countries where these views are law. Even the British born. People from those countries come here, why shouldnt they migrate there?"

I agree, but I would be surprised with any extreme muslim country being prepared to accept such idiots. I suppose that they consider what they are doing is "Jihad" and they have the best of intentions.

As shakesphere said "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I fear its young naive people like this who get radicalised into suicide bombers by the taliban, even if we could persaude them to emmigrate.

I agree eliza.

I have similar feelings about being from NI. The actions of a few casting a shadow on the many others who live and let live.

Nancy66 Fri 18-Jan-13 11:26:58

it's just one mad bloke and a mate with a mobile phone.

I think it's quite funny (and so typically British) that a couple of people they approach just so 'oh right. sorry' - as if they guy doing the shouting has some kind of authority.

crescentmoon Fri 18-Jan-13 11:28:54

Thank you eliza that's how I feel sometimes. We're damned 5 ways till Sunday.

TidyDancer Fri 18-Jan-13 11:30:23

I saw this reported elsewhere, and yes it is horrifying. It would be horrifying regardless of which religion it was and at their most pointed, all religions are scary and at odds with normality.

I suspect this is being hyped up because of extremists wanting to impose ridiculous misinterpretations of sharia law on the UK.

It worries me that there are swathes of people in this country who really don't know what it actually means to be a muslim, they only see an interpretation of it in the media and therefore could easily be left with the impression that being a muslim equals being an abusive insane extremist.

FFS that could apply to anyone, of a religious nature or otherwise.

If you're a good person, you will be good regardless of what religion you affiliate with. If you're bad, well then religion is just another thing you can twist to your own agenda. This extreme kind of behaviour has jackshit to do with actually being a muslim.

alemci Fri 18-Jan-13 11:31:21

Yes perhaps it would be better if the men didn't rant and had a chat with people about things rather than being judgemental. I don't think they are going about it in a very good way and it will just scare and alienate people.

also I would question if they have a day job. They seem to have alot of time and energy to pursue this agenda. Definitely a chat from the police should be the way forward.

I think it is a disgrace the way young people get intoxicated and then they are vulnerable

For example in a local town some christians go out on a Friday night and walk the streets. I think they are called Street Angels. They don't preach but sometimes talk to people who are drunk and my friend took a man to hospital who was very ill. I applaud her giving up her time to go out on a freezing night.

I don't agree with people pushing religion onto others in an aggressive way.

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 11:31:42

The girl took them on though Nancy.

Yes I am sure lots of extremist arms of other religons do things in the uk but its just the muslims we here about.

It shines a constant spotlight on them, I can't persoanlly recall any problems with sikhs - hindus - a bit of out cry when the vatican says things occasionally - it just seems to be muslim muslim muslim...The Media loves them.

I am sick of hearing about Muslims myself - they must be too! I dont want any religions thrust on me.

Also whilst its clearly a couple of prats - almost having a laugh to see what they can get away with - telling women to cover up?

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 11:34:12

BTW Alemci -

"Yes perhaps it would be better if the men didn't rant and had a chat with people about things rather than being judgemental."

If a man came to me to have a " chat" about covering up I think I would be calling the police non emergency number and pressing charges!

Nancy66 Fri 18-Jan-13 11:35:01

Yes, the girl was great!

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 11:38:34

They are twats. Can't we lock them in a room with the EDL and let them get on with it?

Trust the good old Daily Mail to pick up on this, after all they don't have an agenda do they.

My DH is muslim from a country where 99% of the population are muslim and he wouldn't condone this sort of behaviour at all. He would welcome people being interested in his religion and to try to underdstand what he believes and I doubt he'd think that these two are doing anything to promote understanding between different groups. On one level they are failing as muslims as they are alienating people from the religion instead of offering people an insight.

littleducks Fri 18-Jan-13 11:39:15

If this is real, it looks like a pair of (young) idiots messing about. I disagree with the other posters that the girl was brave, I think the couple did the most sensible think to ignore and walk away. It should then be reported to the police, we really don't need vigilantes whatever their beliefs.

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 11:40:39

It reminds me of when I see the press abroad. One relative said to me 'this David Ike fellow...' I almost wet myself laughing that he was being reported abroad with much gravity and shaking of up heads.

alemci Fri 18-Jan-13 11:42:52

Yes totally agree Eliza but was trying to compare it with the Street Angel approach and how they are going about things in the wrong way. I don't agree with them doing this at all. They don't seem very open to debate.

I don't like the way they state this is a Muslim area. That is quite worrying. Will some parts of London become no go. I hope the police crack down on them.

NameGotLostInCyberspace Fri 18-Jan-13 11:46:24

I feel sick, shocked and angry!
How intimidating and scary for those who were harrassed. These people can well do "hijra" and go about their business elsewhere.

And I too am a Muslim.

NameGotLostInCyberspace Fri 18-Jan-13 11:48:07

I can see that others find this funny. If I was going about my business and some man was ordering me to move away or stop what I was doing I would not laughing at all.

Fakebook Fri 18-Jan-13 11:48:17

grin That man's face when they tell him no alcohol allowed grin.

But on a serious note, I think they're just two twatty, uneducated buffoons with too much time on their hands. Like the EDL, but Muslim.

ophelia275 Fri 18-Jan-13 11:51:00

I find this really scary. Who the hell do they think they are. Bloody cheek!

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 11:56:00

Sadly, these silly wee boys will be just a couple of idiots making fools of themselves. Equally silly wee boys with the opposite opinion will now go out looking for them, yelling at women in headscarves to take them off, etc etc etc.

Some of my family love in Iran where you get idiots like this (sadly with a uniform and badge) telling some to cover their hair, zip their coat etc. Recently, however (snigger) one of them was grabbed by a group of women, beaten up, told exactly where to go, and had his trousers stolen.

Orwellian Fri 18-Jan-13 12:11:05

This is becoming a real problem in the East End. There are openly homophobic groups of Muslim men prowling about threatening gay people and putting up stickers and posters about it being a "Muslim area". They also spit at women who are not covered up and generally don't like white people in "their area". And yes, I have had personal experience of it and really really unpleasant. People are sticking their heads in the sand if they think this is not happening. The police don't seem to give much of a shit, in fact they seem to have tried to cover up the Islamicisation of Tower Hamlets; see here www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8570506/Police-covered-up-violent-campaign-to-turn-London-area-Islamic.html

alemci Fri 18-Jan-13 12:30:54

yes I think this is quite scary Orwellian. Not much fun for those who are not of that religion. I think the police and politicians need to stamp down on this.

peacefuloptimist Fri 18-Jan-13 13:01:19

I couldnt even watch the whole video it was so cringe-worthy. However I agree with you Crescent. Why on earth would a bunch of 'children' with nothing better to do then hang out on the street bothering people they dont know make the news? The way they dress, the way they speak, what they are doing and even the background track to their video shows they are more influenced by the gang-culture adopted by some young people rather then Islam. Even their name 'Muslim patrol'? That sounds like a name my teenage brother would have come up with. I always find it baffling why these people get so much airtime (and that they even exist). However, as much as I would like to think people would know better than to tarnish all muslims with the same brush I know there will already be right-wing muslim-bashing websites who will already be preparing their headlines 'Muslims want to enforce sharia in UK' or some such other nonsense. Its like going to the most deprived white areas and asking people living there what their views are on homosexuality or immigration then saying that is a commonely held view amongst most British White people.

BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 13:59:44

Orwellian, that is shocking.

sashh Fri 18-Jan-13 14:52:34

A couple of idiots film a video and it's on the news.

We have laws limmiting trading on certain days imposed by one sect of one religeon and no one seems to care.

Latara Fri 18-Jan-13 14:54:35

This video has given me ideas:

I could go out in a hoodie & shout at random people -

''YOU, cover up! - leggings aren't meant to show your bum!!''

''YOU SLOB! Get a shirt over that flabby belly''

''YOU gross yucky person; don't spit in the street!! And give me your Stella -for later- because it's just wrong!!''

Nancy66 Fri 18-Jan-13 15:04:07

Good idea Latra

YOU - stop putting Coke in your baby's bottle this is MIDDLE CLASS area !

YOU - put a bloody coat on - it's JANUARY and you will catch your death

Latara Fri 18-Jan-13 15:37:04

''YOU - GIVE me your MONEY it's unclean and bad for you!!''

''YOU - give me that bottle of wine & i'll drink it cos it's bad for you!!''

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Jan-13 15:55:14

Oooh, Mumsnet vigilantes, can I join?

"Navy tights with a black skirt and shoes, ARE YOU MAD?"

"Don't you dare pick your nose on public transport, ugh!"

I could go on.

But actually, serious point: these kids are no more or less representative of their faith community than anyone on here is. You can't judge any group, minority or majority, by the actions of a couple of its members. When an ordinary white British person does something idiotic, they're judged to be an idiotic individual. When a British Muslim does something idiotic, too often the reaction is about idiotic Muslims. It is wrong and v depressing.

peacefuloptimist Fri 18-Jan-13 15:57:21

Hehe Latara. You could call yourself the mums patrol. MP for short. [Grin]

"You - onesies are for children. Dress like an adult for god's sake"

(Going off to think of more)

thesnootyfox Fri 18-Jan-13 16:01:34

"Like the EDL but Muslim."

Exactly.

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 16:02:27

I would personally wedgie all the 'yoot' who think its ok to wear trousers hanging off their arses, doing their pimp roll. Ditto MC white kids yelling on the bus "Oh Hugo! Yah, blood! How ahhr yew, bro? Are you going to Cressida's house party this weekend?".

And many, many other things...

MadamFolly Fri 18-Jan-13 16:38:07

YOU THERE WITH THE SKATEBOARD... careful now, that thing looks unsteady.

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 17:17:33

You! Yes, you Potty Mouth! Don't you know that swearing just indicates a limited volcabulary?

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 18-Jan-13 17:20:52

Moomin you are funny lmfao!! "Cressidas house party"

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 17:27:08

We get a lot if them in Trendy Notting Hill. They'd piss themselves on the night bus through Brixton.

WaynettaSlobsLover Fri 18-Jan-13 17:31:43

I would rather shoot myself in the foot than go on the Brixton night bus. I'm Blackheath and even now I'm still scared when out late blush

Moominsarehippos Fri 18-Jan-13 18:00:17

SIL used to live there (got a lot of racism and mugged a lot) and wouldn't go back if you paid her!

andtheycalleditbunnylove Fri 18-Jan-13 18:42:21

the only part i'm unhappy with is the 'this is a Muslim area' comment, and that i'm only bothered about if they mean it as 'we're Muslim and most of us are asian, you're white, so don't come round here, we own this place, we have the power here and you aren't allowed in this area'. if they mean 'we are respectable people with religious commitments. we don't want to see your naked, drunken behaviour. go away,' i'm right with them.

Nancy66 Fri 18-Jan-13 19:21:06

the people they were confronting weren't behaving badly though - one poor couple were just walking home!

BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 19:27:40

andtheycalleditbunnylove - yes, walking home and minding your own business is really so awful. it's none of their bloody business!

alemci Fri 18-Jan-13 21:19:20

The irony is that the vigalantees behaviour is far from exemplary. Bullying and harrassing others is a great way to be a good witness for your religion not. I think one lady stood up to them and they didn't like it.

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 21:45:11

From the Daily Heil article I expected to see 100 strong gangs in balaclavas weilding baseball bats, but all it looked like was a handful of teenage bellsniffs in hoodies. It is hardly 9/11 redux, more like Carry On Jihad, trying to destroy decadent western society by snatching beer cans from drunks on a Saturday night. The voice over at the end is piss funny too, if I hadn't known better I'd have thought it was an unseen extra from Brass Eye or the film Four Lions.

I speculate that before too long they'll get smacked in the chops when they try taking a can of booze off the wrong drunk and they'll slink away.

BeanJuice Fri 18-Jan-13 22:45:25

alemci I bet they especially didn't like the fact that a woman was standing up to them!

GothAnneGeddes Fri 18-Jan-13 23:04:42

YANBU, they are arses and yes, I'm Muslim.

Someone needs to have a firm word with them about ways to make a positive contribution to society.

But yes, I do wonder how these people have a hotline to the Daily Mail.

I remember on one Muslim discussion board some said "That Anjem Choudary (main Al Majirouhn tossarse) needs a good kicking, unfortunately his antics will lead to some uncle or auntie getting a kicking instead.

These people love publicity and the media would do everyone a favour by not people so quick to trumpet their attention-seeking behaviour.

Moominsarehippos Sat 19-Jan-13 07:36:00

I'd pay good money to see a film of their mums giving them a clip around the ear.

BunFagFreddie Sat 19-Jan-13 07:54:21

Its absolutely disgusting. But its not a muslim issue. All religions have extremists who feel it is their job to tell the rest of us how to live.

Yes, like Mit Romney.

peacefuloptimist Sat 19-Jan-13 08:11:56

'Someone needs to have a firm word with them about ways to make a positive contribution to society'.

Why would they want to make a positive contribution when negative acts and anti-social behaviour is what gets muslim people attention?

In my local area a group of about 10 muslim men, all educated, all professionals, tax-payers, family men etc are going out to clear the snow from roads around the mosque, from the driveways of care homes and their elderly neighbours homes out of their own accord. They are not being paid for their work. The council is giving them shovels and high-visibility jackets that is about it and quite frankly they are not doing it to get the recognition from the council or for any financial benefits since all of them are hard-working citizens. Yet I bet you these men like the majority of UK muslims who are law-abiding, who are integrated and who like them give their free time to contribute to society will be totally ignored. A National Muslim charity recently recruited volunteers to pack food which had been donated by local Muslim food outlets in to parcels for homeless people in London. They had so many volunteers that they had to turn people away. However that was never publicised in the news.

Instead TWO idiots with a camera phone who are having a laugh will be held up as some sort of example or standard of what 'British muslims' are like. It is an absolute disgrace and in fact very disheartening to a person who has grown up here that there is such a determined effort to demonise muslims in the media so that every crack-pot, layabout and time waster is dregged up as an example of what Islam produces and not the kindness, charity and tolerance that Islam acutally promotes and that the majority of muslims try to embody. What is sadder then that is that there are many people including some on this thread who fall for it hook line and sinker and are unwilling to look beyond the headlines of the national news.

Sorry for the rant but got an email this morning asking for more volunteers to clear out the roads in our area and I just felt that it is so unfair that these kind of people are ignored.

alemci Sat 19-Jan-13 11:48:27

Good point Peace about the guys clearing the snow and helping with charity.

However, what worries me is the way that the out of order factions seem to get away with it. Where were the police? Just really don't like this no area thing because won't most people not go there anymore if this sort of behaviour becomes more common place and then it does become a no go area.

I read a comment on another forum that these vigilante also harrass moderate Muslims and tell them what to do. They are quite intimidating and again the police don't help.

In Bradford aren't there areas where the police will not go

andtheycalleditbunnylove Sat 19-Jan-13 16:52:17

i used to work in blackburn and there were areas where the police wouldn't go and buses wouldn't run - 'white' areas.
the 'you can't walk in our area' aspect is unacceptable no matter which group is doing it. you get it in some jewish areas round manchester - just walk up the road going from a to b and curtains twitch, men appear on their drives...and i've been told myself 'you don't walk here' by asian youths in other areas of manchester, and suffered all kinds of abuse from white and mixed teenagers in the area where i live.
[lovebunny, there's a pattern appearing - nobody likes you - this is mumsnet, they don't like you here, either. ah well]

but we do need a moral revival in this country and if some Muslims are willing to stand up and be counted, some Christians should be right with them, and members of other religions or none.

Moominsarehippos Sat 19-Jan-13 17:04:17

The Anti-Tosser Brigade?
Where do I sign up?

Abitwobblynow Sat 19-Jan-13 17:07:23

Waynetta, can you campaign for parliament?! We need good Brits like you! (I too am from another continent and I HATE right-on left wing twats people apologising for British values and British institutions, and I hate them even more pretending that other cultures are of equal value - they aren't. If they were we wouldn't be here, would we???????

Abitwobblynow Sat 19-Jan-13 17:08:52

Oh, and you very much are NBU. This is bullying and intimidation and the perpetrators need arresting and charging, with an invitation to return to whichever islamic paradise they originated from.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 17:33:47

Lol I would love to campaign for parliament because as a British (I prefer English actually) Muslim, I'm sick and tired of all the PC bollocks that goes on, as are the majority of Muslims in this country. Furthermore, there needs to be some sort of guidelines in Islamic and other religious centres that prohibits extremist views and has a strict policy on people who try and radicalise or push hardline attitudes. One of the most disgusting things is the attitude of people with faith towards people who don't have faith, that kind of contempt is unislamic and is arrogance at its worst. I've slowly distanced myself from friends who think anjem choudhary is acceptable, who have extreme views on every tiny thing, who judge other people for choices that they don't agree with, and who berate female Muslims (like me) who don't wear a billowing tent dress and headcover in public. Thank god in general the majority of Muslims like dh's family, my sis in law's family and many others are religious yet moderate and have integrated well/speak perfect English whilst bringing their kids up to be decent and contribute to the economy.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 17:43:59

Integration is what pisses me off the most actually. How you can be in England for 30 years, not speak the language fluently, and not have any native friends or cultural awareness just staggers me. Yet unbelievably I've met people, of different faiths, that are like this. My kids are Muslim and half Arab, but they are English/British white and a few other European nationalities to boot. My son dances to Arabic music and asks me when I'm going to put on Afternoon Tea and scones lol. My dh loves his native dishes but adores the countryside and winters and if course a full English (wink). Sorry for the rant guys but this is personally what I think everyone should be doing really, cultural awareness is great but we have to remember where we live and the social norms around us. The prats on the Fail Online are a perfect example of possibly bad upbringing and limited intelligence and social skills.

BeanJuice Sat 19-Jan-13 18:47:46

Ah, I love people like you Waynetta grin

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 19:00:56

Haha grin I'm almost BNP with some of my views...according to the PC brigade ;)

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sat 19-Jan-13 20:21:01

waynetta completely with you. And I'm of a minority ethnicity too.
I don't understand how people can live in a society and not even want to integrate.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 20:34:56

Zombies I'd love to know the answer too because the irony is that all of us can benefit and learn from different cultures and backgrounds, whilst still knowing our own roots and respecting where we live. Rant aside, the majority of non-whites/English are very educated, integrated and decent people, just like anyone else. My problem is literally with those who slag Britain off, drain the nhs (tons of kids and diabetes/high cholesterol due to their high fat/sugar diets) and refuse to make friends with anyone beyond their own nationality. I think living in London maybe problems such as these are more prevalent? Not sure

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sat 19-Jan-13 20:55:00

No plenty of ghettoes in places around the country where people are just so content to stay in their own holes.
They won't meet people outside their own narrow comfort zones and somehow it's become a matter of pride.
Along with all that comes the cultural baggage of expecting the children to not integrate. What pressure that must put on these poor kids I can only imagine.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sat 19-Jan-13 20:55:36

Not these kids in the video because clearly they are in their own parallel universe!

ReallyTired Sat 19-Jan-13 22:17:14

WaynettaSlobsLover,

I completely agree with your posts. I believe that a Muslim parliment/council/commitee would help to disinguish what are real religous rights and when a muslim is taking the piss. (Ie. exhibitionist behaviour of wanting to wear the jihab in class rather than the simpler hijab) or wanting to cover the face completely. (The rights of Deaf people to be able to lip read are as important as religious rights.)

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/mar/23/schools.religion

I feel that this school girl's family should have paid for the costs of the court case. The whole point of a school uniform is that children can't pick and choose what they wear. The shalwar kameez meets the Islamic needs for modesty perfectly well.

alemci Sat 19-Jan-13 22:29:39

yes, I wonder if this would have made the courts if the legal costs hadn't been paid. I totally agree about the lip reading issue. It was also a health and safety concern.

I always felt that school girl was being manipulated by her family.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sat 19-Jan-13 23:15:55

I didn't even know about that case until I just read it Really!! That's a real pisstake and I completely agree with the shalwar kameez being sufficient. Those jilbabs can be a safety issue, I for one have tripped up stairs whilst wearing one and carrying my ds. They are impractical particularly for the school environment. Lip reading like you said is the priority here, without any shadow of a doubt.

peacefuloptimist Sun 20-Jan-13 09:27:51

'That the out of order factions seem to get away with it.'

Really? Through the whole video you never saw the faces of the two making the video once and it seemed quite deliberate (i.e. hoody, back to camera). Seems like they are not so cocky that they will risk showing their faces to the public. Wonder why? Probably because they know that they will get in trouble and face consquences for their anti-social behaviour. There have been prosecutions against this type of radical behaviour (for example their leaders have been imprisoned and in some cases deported, the men who were handing out the homophobic literature were sent to prison) so I disagree that they are not being dealt with.

'Where were the police?'

I think a lot of people who ever have reason to call the police find themselves asking that question. That question the police alone can answer.

'Just really don't like this no area thing because won't most people not go there anymore if this sort of behaviour becomes more common place and then it does become a no go area.'

This type of behaviour is certainly not new. You will find it in any major city where there are gangs. For example in South, North and East London (not familiar with West) there are gangs who engage in postcode feuds where if you come from a certain area (e.g. Hackney - no offence to those in Hackney I just know of a particular example of someone from Hackney experiencing this) you will be beaten up if you go in to another area where there is another gang 'ruling' even if you yourself are not part of the gang in your area. I know definitely in South London you have this sort of thing where some people from Peckham, Woolich or Brixton are afraid to go in to neighbouring areas for fear of being subjected to gang violence. Weren't there cases in the news a few years ago about young people being killed for this same reason. Arent there some parts of your local area which you will avoid because of crime, drugs, anti-social behaviour etc? My point is this happens already but it doesnt effect the majority of society (in the cases Ive mentioned normally just young men) and it is not linked to religion. It seems probable that these men are from a similar background and are still engaged in the same behaviour though they have left the gangs (and made their own it seems). This type of behaviour is very difficult to eradicate completely from urban areas but it can be controlled and the perpetrators punished which Im sure will happen to these two if they are identified.

The media fixate on these sort of Radical groups because they like scare-mongering because thats what sells papers. However there is nothing to be afraid of because these groups are a minority within a minority. A tiny fraction of the total population. In my earlier post I mentioned that 10 men were engaged in doing charitable, helpful work in my local area. Compare that to the two who made this video. It would be worrying if all sections of the muslim community behaved like this but the fact is they dont. You will find the type of people mentioned in these articles who engage in this sort of vigilante behaviour fit a certain profile. They are young (normally under 30), they are not well-educated, they come from deprived backgrounds, they are unemployed or work in low-skilled jobs. In fact they fit the profile of other factions of UK society who also feel alienated and similarly create problems and engage in anti-social behaviour.

The way to deal with Radicals like this is the same way you deal with the far-right white extremists. Firstly, monitor them to make sure they abide by the law and there views do not cause them to harm others in society, acting if they do break the law (which is largely what happens with these people). Secondly marginalise them. There was a huge storm a few years ago when the BNP leader was invited on to Question Time. People rightly objected because they didnt want him to get a platform to express his extreme views and possibly garner more supporters. That is how the Muslim community deals with Radicals like these. We do not allow them to speak/preach at mosques (normally you will find them hovering outside the mosque premises because they are not allowed inside), their views are challenged ferociously if they enter in to debate with mainstream muslims (which they tend to avoid), young people are educated and warned against this type of fanatical, radical views. The Muslim community does not give them a platform on which to stand. Its time the UK media followed suit.

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