to be concerned by how much support Nigel Farage

(128 Posts)
FreudiansSlipper Thu 17-Jan-13 23:20:30

Seems to be getting on Question Time

It's worrying how much support UKIP are getting

polkadotsrock Thu 17-Jan-13 23:21:56

DH just said this to me! But I don't find UKIP worth worrying about really

manicbmc Thu 17-Jan-13 23:24:48

Yes. But no one really worried about Hitler's party in 1933 either and that didn't end well.

They are dangerous people, with nasty views who make some of the Tories seem reasonable.

Beware.

carlajean Thu 17-Jan-13 23:25:53

I'm watching it now, and find him the only politician in the panel that I don't find really annoying. Couldn't believe it when Mary Beard basically told a woman from Boston that she was lying about what was going on in her area as she (MB) had read a report on the area and knew better.

Whoknowswhocares Thu 17-Jan-13 23:28:36

Well with the calibre of all the other parties, who have all proved that they are quite happy to lie about what they will do when in power, cheat and fiddle their expenses and only care about scoring pathetic points over each other with scant regard for the good of the country, then is it really that surprising?

manicbmc Thu 17-Jan-13 23:28:59

Mary Beard is not a politician though. She's not even really a people person, she's an historian.

Don't trust anyone who seems too good to be true. Seriously they will have the disabled and old euthanised in the name of caring. hmm Nasty and vile.

carlajean Thu 17-Jan-13 23:31:46

no, I just meant she was just as annoying as them, and have no idea why she's on the panel.

colleysmill Thu 17-Jan-13 23:38:02

If I remember correctly I think Robert Kilroy Silk was UKIP MEP for a while for Lincolnshire.

manicbmc Thu 17-Jan-13 23:39:40

There you go then. Can't get much more slimy than that.

colleysmill Thu 17-Jan-13 23:49:54

Quick Google and I was right! MEP for east midlands until he left UKIP for Veritas.

How I remembered that I don't know, if I could only remember more important things ......

Whoknowswhocares Thu 17-Jan-13 23:52:55

I'm struggling to think of a single politician of any persuasion who isn't slimey!

If only there was a 'none of the above' option on a ballot paper angry

AloeSailor Thu 17-Jan-13 23:54:39

It's Lincolnshire though, it's to be expected.

SashaSashays Thu 17-Jan-13 23:55:02

I was surprised to find myself even paying attention to him and I vote Green! Personally I would like an EU referendum just because I can't stand the endless bloody debate. I think Europe is an issue that is always used as Spin to cover lots of other things that happen in government and so the general public becomes very aware of it. Then that means UKIP get a lot of attention and Nigel Farage says lots of things that sound like good common sense so people trust him. Also as they're a newish/less established party I think that for lots of people there is more trust in them. Majority of people I know feel disenfranchised with the other big parties, UKIP is filling the gap.

Jinsei Fri 18-Jan-13 00:13:09

I thought it was quite depressing to see how much support there was for him. Scary stuff.

MB was very good.

BunFagFreddie Fri 18-Jan-13 00:49:17

Robert Kilroy Silk was also a Labour MP.

Are the UKIP any worse than Labour or the Conservatives (Libdems don't count)? Labour were quite happy for us to invade Iran and kill brown people, and the Conservatives don't even attempt to disguise their contempt for the disadvantaged and vulnerable. I'm deeply concerned that people would vote for either of them.

I don't like Nigel Farage, but I think he has some good points about Europe. The UKIP wouldn't be growing in popularity if people didn't agree with some of their policies.

thebody Fri 18-Jan-13 00:53:18

Why is it worrying? Because you don't agree? Neither do I chik!!!not sure how old you are but it's like the Michael foot years. Embarrassing to be a socialist.

Other parties need to up game. That's it really.

I keep reading Veritas as Dignitas and thinking, "blimey didn't know Kilroy-Silk was dead" blush

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 01:11:22

I loathe Farage with a passion..

Thankfully there is a limit to their appeal. The thing with Europe as an issue, is that a small percentage of people are obsessed with it, mostly middle aged provincial sad sacks, swivel eyed Daily Mail reading nutters and closet racists who can't quite bring themselves to vote BNP.

For most it is a side issue way behind jobs, the economy, education and law and order. When the Tories have tried to make political capital out of Europe, it has mostly fallen flat on its face. William Hague tried the '24 hours to save the pound' trick before the 2001 election and he lost by a landslide.

At the next election they will be exactly the same number of UKIP MPs as there were at the last one: none.

tuonela Fri 18-Jan-13 11:47:00

I don't see Europe as a single issue, given it's impact on so many areas of our lives, some good, some bad. Though sometimes even the case for the good is either vague scaremongering or pretty week. All Mary Beard, a Camridge Professor, could offer on Question Time last night were 'benefits' such as clean beaches. Our beaches aren't actually that great, and are increasingly losing their Blue Flags, not helped by the privatised water companies opening the sluice gate whenever they feel like it. We're a sensible society, we're not suddenly going to start smearing excrement into the sand the second we're out of the EU. The private water companies will take care of that.

This brings me onto privatisation of our utilities in general. Were the utilities not sold off to private companies, invariable foreign owned, perhaps water companies might invest more in their plants, rather than being driven by profit for their shareholders. France's EDF has it's energy bills capped by the French government, though now they supply much of our power, they can increase our energy bills with impunity. Or how about when Gordon Brown, in all his glorious wisdom, just as we're being ushered in to a new age of reliance on nuclear power, sold BNFL-owned Westinghouse to Japan. Then there's our trains, etc, etc. Privatisation has been not been good for the British public. Any hope of renationalising will be fettered by the EU.

It is very clear what big business gets out of the EU, but has the case been clearly made at a level that benefits us commoners? I respect Ken Clarke, a decent politician of probity and integrity, of which there are few, and is the staunchest of all pro Europen tories. Of anyone, surely this intelligent man, an ex-chancellor of the exchequer, should be able to put a convincing case for the benefits, but I've yet to hear it.

Yes, there are pros and cons, the single market, etc, but the erosion of democracy is a huge concern.

The poster above mentions being 'frightening' by Nigel Farage, and yet seems unfazed by the fact that the democratically elected leaders of Italy and Greece were removed from office and replaced by faceless technocrats selected from a faceless cabal in Brussels.

An erosion of what little democracy we have, with a charter for big business to ride roughshod over the little people, and yet those who rightly question the EU are accused of being 'right wingers'. Or the trite phrase often peddled out, 'swivel-eyed'. Really, is it right wing to question the EU, it's power, influence or it's impact on our lives, because I don't feel right-wing?

Perhaps you can illuminate me?

EuroShagmore Fri 18-Jan-13 11:49:48

I didn't see the show but am aware of UKIP's policies. I'm not sure why you find it frightening? Surely it is a good sign of a healthy democracy that there are politicians with different view points, discussing them openly?

Dawndonna Fri 18-Jan-13 12:02:23

Would be great if they did discuss them openly, but they don't. They don't discuss putting the disabled into communes openly, do they. They don't discuss the fact that they want to bring back the death penalty openly.
They don't discuss the fact that they're racist bigots openly.
They are the polite version of the BNP. Thugs in suits, just the same, the only difference is the quality of the suit.

MoreBeta Fri 18-Jan-13 12:13:34

I want a referendum too but I got the distinct impression from a few things Grant Shapps said that the 'referendum' we will eventually get is not going to be IN/OUT but one where we are asked if we the people would like the UK to 'Renegotiate our realtionship with the EU'. This will be meaningless and pushed off until after the next election. We already know most people will say yes to a renegotiation but in fact nothing will change as our EU partners will just tell us to get lost.

To get any concessions we need a proper renegotation with the explicit threat of an IN/OUT referendum if we dont get what we want.

Cameron has thrown away his negotiating position already. No wonder Farage is popular. If the Tory party got a leader who called an IN/OUT referendum tomorrow and delivered an ultimatum to Brussels then UKIP support would melt away.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 18-Jan-13 12:46:25

I find it worrying how much support they are getting because I have read their policies, on a programme such as question time I would expect many of the audience have too

they hide behind the anti Europe stance there is far more to their core beliefs than being anti Europe

and their are many Tory party members who are not happy what other right wing party is there to support

Horsemad Fri 18-Jan-13 13:01:25

I found MB's comments amusing as everything the lady from Boston said was true!

I live fairly close to Boston and the impact of immigration has been enormous.

carlajean Fri 18-Jan-13 13:11:43

I found her attitude to the Boston woman insulting. But hey, she'd read the report so Obviously knew best.

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 13:18:21

I am not in BOston but I know a MW at local hospital has almost been drive to a nervous breakdown due to the unbearable pressure - lack of resources in hospital purley down to sharp rise in birth numbers from immigrants in a place of low resources. I think what MB said about that local hospital was hideous when women and babies loose lives - can be scarred for life etc etc through a process of childbirth.
also she didnt state what the resources where there to begin with - for instance - only a rise of 1% - well was that particular resource able to cope with that 1% rise?

also she didnt mention the noitourisly bad record keeping of the government - so all records are not accurate.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 18-Jan-13 13:24:10

I agree she did not handle it well but the point she was making was she was trying to get away from is pesky foreigners come here steal our jobs and homes David Dimbleby pointed out that these jobs could be done by locals but those who run the businesses choose to pay less and not look after their staff and who is willing to work for little money migrant workers then of course Nigel Farafe agreed but far better and easi to point the finger at the migrant workers to get people worked up

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 13:25:21

Boston hospital was always well crap before there were so many immigrants. They are just using them as an excuse for their shoddy care standards.

My mother died due to lack of after care following a minor routine procedure at that hospital. Not because of any underlying health issues. Not because she didn't follow what she should do. But because they failed to look after her post-operatively. This was quite a number of years ago.

Horsemad Fri 18-Jan-13 13:40:27

Yes manic the hospital has had a poor reputation for years.
I've always been happy with the level of treatment and care received though. smile

tuonela Fri 18-Jan-13 14:05:10

It really doesn't wash that questioning EU or mass immigration automatically equates to being racist. Have you read any of the comments on say German papers. Many actually respect the stance we're taking on the EU edifice and it's role.

The racist tag is a great way of closing down debate though...

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 14:09:49

but you have a crap - or rather - life threatening hospital - and you have no resources to make that hospital better - so you flood it with even more people?

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 14:11:57

Unfortunlaty I think MB is a classic case of " Ivory Towers", I would say her and her attitude is the exact reason why parties like UK are doing well. She is totally divorced from the reality - the daily reality - that alot of people all over the UK are facing.

Certianly it seemed her report was a direct contradiction from the living experience of the lady from Boston.

Orwellian Fri 18-Jan-13 14:15:54

Why would you be concerned? How many people has Nigel Farage killed? How many illegal wars has he entered the country into? How many terrorists has he allowed to settle and claim benefits in this country? He is just a politician ffs, don't be so dramatic. People are thankfully still allowed to hold opinions in this country, even if they aren't to the liking of the liberal/left 'intelligensia' (but for how much longer?).

MoreBeta Fri 18-Jan-13 14:20:00

<stands shoulder to shoulder with Orwellian>

Branding someone a racist is very much a well worn tactic of the left to shut down debate.

bringnbuy Fri 18-Jan-13 14:22:21

i saw watched it too. very interesting. i agreed with alot of what Nigel said, made more sense than the boring crap coming out of the others

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 14:23:07

Hitler was just a politician to begin with. hmm

MoreBeta Fri 18-Jan-13 14:23:29

Oh look what I found. The BBc is reporting that Farage should not take part in TV election debates, says PM http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21066558.

UKIP are running ahead of the LibDems in some polls.

MoreBeta Fri 18-Jan-13 14:24:37
wouldulikeit Fri 18-Jan-13 14:29:05

I'm tired of hearing anybody questioning our role in Europe, especially facing the austerity measures that we are labeled as racists.

People have genuine and valid concerns and do not feel like they're being listened to by this government.

This is why ukip are picking up the votes.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 18-Jan-13 14:34:59

I am concerned as I have read up on UKIP's policies

should I not be when they are gaining support, Nigel Farage seem to have quite a lot of support from the audience last night and I feel UKIP's policies would be damaging to many

have you read the UKIP manifesto have you not read in the news the crap that many of their senior members come out with

FreudiansSlipper Fri 18-Jan-13 14:36:42

UKIP are not just about being anti Europe though

carlajean Fri 18-Jan-13 14:38:18

why are you so surprised, when the other members clearly didn't give a damn about what residents of the area thought?

Busyoldfool Fri 18-Jan-13 14:38:45

Agree wouldu. Sick of debate being shut down with the ultimate insult, regardless of what the point might be.

TheSecondComing Fri 18-Jan-13 14:44:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bringnbuy Fri 18-Jan-13 15:00:17

i know of a fair few immigrants who also worry about the impact of so many immigrants coming over. it isn't just british people that are worrying about it.

lljkk Fri 18-Jan-13 15:15:33

I don't like his opinions but I think I like Farage personally, he is very entertaining. His wife is German, which U probably all knew, he's more charming & socially liberal than most of his party.

UKIP is big where we are, scary. Important local business owner is one of their candidates, they are well organised on parish councils and make their feelings known on many local planning issues (eg, can't get a single wind turbine built around here for love or money). I picked up one of their newsletters (14 page thing in cottage hospital magazine reading pile). "It's all middle aged white men!" shrieked DH in disgust (he is a middle aged white man himself). But monoculture is their preference. The only foreign-born people I know locally ( Polish ) are trained teachers working long hours doing care work, and volunteering actively at their kids' clubs. Such parasites, honestly! ( ironic smiley )

I was quite pleased with Radio 5 phone in the other day, when a lot of people were endorsing the idea of a referendum on EU membership just to get the anti-Europeans to STFU. I'm tired of the shit-stirring. I'll probably plan to leave the country soon after Britain leaves EU.

lljkk Fri 18-Jan-13 15:17:11

Listen to detailed results of next elections:

the anti-Europe pro-xenophobic bias parties, if all their votes were pooled, they easily come 2nd and even first in many elections. It's very scary.

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Jan-13 15:31:03

UKIP are big in Lincolnshire, so Nigel Farage would have got a good reception. Farage is a very talented 'performer' but I don't find him credible as a serious politician. I don't see him as a man who could really build a consensus or find creative solutions for intractable problems. The rest of UKIP is very much less impressive than him-like a lot of fringe parties, the calibre of candidates varies wildly and I think that is why they don't win in Westminster elections. And what are their policies on other things? The trouble with (almost) single issue parties is that they don't have developed agendas on the great mass of stuff that any government has to deal with. That is why even if I were anti-Europe I couldn't vote for UKIP. What on earth would we do if they actually got in?

tuonela Fri 18-Jan-13 15:39:37

I'm still struggling with this. Can the posters who continue to claim they are 'scared' or 'frightened' by Nigel Farage please explain why they are not 'scared' or 'frightened' by the fact that the democratically elected leaders of Italy and Greece were removed from office and replaced by faceless technocrats selected from a faceless cabal in Brussels?

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Jan-13 15:47:36

I agree tuonela. Democracy deficit in the Eu is glossed over to an astonishing degree. Farage is a bit scary, as a demagogue, but the Christine LaGranges of this world are more scary, to my mind.

tuonela Fri 18-Jan-13 16:17:18

Yes, EldritchCleavage, I agree, assume you mean Christine Lagarde though.

I find it scary that Lagarde earns hundreds of thousands and does not pay a penny in tax and yet, cushioned from reality within the EU elite bubble, accuses the Greek people of dodging tax. The Greeks really are in trouble, many are genuinely destitute and impoverished, and yet Lagarde fails to see the sickening hypocrisy of her comments.

EldritchCleavage Fri 18-Jan-13 16:40:35

Oh sorry, she annoys me so much I always get her name wrong.

Lottie13 Fri 18-Jan-13 17:33:42

Christine Lagarde has nothing to do with the EU. She works for the IMF - a UN institution. Or would you like to withdraw from the UN too?

ConferencePear Fri 18-Jan-13 17:42:22

If you had tried to find a school for your children when you had recently changed your job to one in a northern town or city you might find Farage's views a little less frightening.

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 18:07:33

Yes, because finding a school is soooo important compared to protecting the disabled from this evil party's ideals. hmm

Also euthanising the over 80s - is that okay?

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.

tuonela Fri 18-Jan-13 18:12:49

Christine Lagarde has nothing to do with the EU? Have you heard of the European Central Bank (ECB) and the European Commission (EC). Are you aware of the austerity measures drawn up by these three bodies, designed to prop up the superstate you're under the delusion Lagarde has nothing to do with?

tuonela Fri 18-Jan-13 18:21:31

Protecting the disabled and euthanising the over 80s?

Maybe you can support this baseless propaganda?

Do you mean giving those who are suffering terminal illness the right to die? If so, please...

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 18:25:36

No, general euthanasia policy for the over 80s.

Putting the disabled into commune type things but really it's about 'containing' them.

Sterilising the disabled.

They are not nice people. The middle class version of the BNP.

And yes, I do agree about there being a proper policy/law on the right to die but it shouldn't be a blanket over 80 law. That is just wrong.

hazeyjane Fri 18-Jan-13 18:41:31

"· Re-examine community care and support congregate communities for people with learning
disabilities......

........· Abandon the policy of ‘inclusion’ and allow
parents to chose special schools for children with
learning disabilities"

Both quotes from the UKIP manifesto - 'communities' for disabled people and discouraging disabled children from attending mainstream schools. Great party (heavy on the sarcasm)

ConferencePear Fri 18-Jan-13 19:29:55

I was not suggesting that we all rush out and vote UKIP. It is difficult not to worry about immigrtion when you are desperate to find a child a new school i a new town because the schools are already full to overflowing.
Manicbmc if you are going to quote Neimoller you might at least quote him correctly. To expect that ordinary UK citizens should not find it almost impossibily difficult to find a school in no way advicates euthanasia for the elderly or any of the other things you suggest.

Lottie13 Fri 18-Jan-13 19:33:53

Dear Tuonela - I'm aware of both the ECB and the Commission - both are EU Institutions. My point was simply that the IMF is not an EU Institution. I'm not aware of all the details of the UKIP policy manifesto. If it really opposes membership of the IMF - an international body to which all UN members are party - then that's taking nationalism to a new high. Are you aware that the IMF is generally involved in all instances where States risk defaulting on loans. Like Argentina - which has nothing to do with the EU. And as for austerity, isn't that also the policy of our current government. That income and outgoings need to correlate?

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 19:51:36

It's one of the versions of that poem attributed to Neimoller.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 20:25:13

That Mary Beard is Professor of Classics at the University of Cambridge. She is the Classics editor of the Times Literary Supplement and I cannot believe how the hell she is able to hold a job like that down. Did you see her? Did you listen to her?As for Nigel well I don't like politicians at all, every one of them out for themselves but he has hit on a worry for me , how will we cope with the influx of Bulgarians and Romanians in December? I know we don't own Britain but when they are cutting services in the nhs and ppl are waiting for a bed on a trolley in an ac/em corridor for 23 hours before being shunted off to an 'assessment ward' to manipulate the govt figures then it is worrying AND SOMETHING EVERYONE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

determinedma Fri 18-Jan-13 20:32:56

UKIP are picking up votes because people are sick to death of the alternatives. At least UKIP say what the policies are and you can like it or lump it. However they won't gain many seats, as they will just split the main party vote.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 20:39:54

Do you think so well what will that mean another bloody coalition?

ConferencePear Fri 18-Jan-13 21:03:56

Sukysue you have explained what I wanted to say more clearly than I did.
I don't agree with your general remarks about Mary though;I usually like her. I think that report she had read (good girl done her homework) has written by a load of Boston bureaucrats who didn't want to admit they had not handle the influx of immigrants into their town very well.
I think they will pick up votes next time and we'll get another coalition Possible even worse than this one.

BunFagFreddie Fri 18-Jan-13 21:40:33

Careful Sukysue. Anyone who dares to question our immigration policy is now a massive racist.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 21:48:51

Is it possible to get a worse coalition than this one ?
As for Mary well yes she may have done her homework but..... as a professer at Cambridge I would have expected her to have a more rounded and better researched opinion on the topic, I felt she was made to look stupid, after all when you write an assignment for uni you have to give the world and his wife's opinion except for your own!
I am genuinely worried about the influx of more ppl. I really don't know how we as a country are going to cope. I want to help everyone but realistically we can't. I just feel helpless ,our worries are not being listened to, we are branded as racists for expressing a real worry. What is going to happen? What can we do?

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 21:53:44

I'm not a racist Freddie just a worried wife and mum who doesn't know which way to turn. It looks like we are a rudderless country.

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 21:56:15

Careful Sukysue. Anyone who dares to question our immigration policy is now a massive racist

Funny thing is, they usually are.

They normall start conversations along the lines of...

I'm not a racist BUT...
I've got Black friends BUT...

Say what you like about the BNP/EDL at least they have the courage of their convictions and don't pretend to be anything but racist, homophobic, mysognostic shitstains and don't cloak their inherent bigotry in meely mouthed -wink wink- language.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 18-Jan-13 21:57:59

YANBU.
I can see so many similarities with Germany in the 1930s that it's frightening.

Right down to entire groups of people being demonised due to their nationality, faith or disability.

mumzy Fri 18-Jan-13 21:59:10

Farage seems more in touch with the experiences of a lot of Britons who have had to live with the consequences of the mass uncontrolled immigration over the past 10 years. I doubt Millibrand / Cameron have even been touched by this issue and I find their reassurances loathsome.

mumzy Fri 18-Jan-13 22:07:16

I don't think questioning immigration policy is racist (speaking as a first generation immigrant myself). IMO controlled immigration and a robust asylum system are good things for a country but uncontrolled immigration usually results in inadequate integration which is bad for both the immigrants and the indigenious population.

ConferencePear Fri 18-Jan-13 22:10:01

Another thing that worries me is the effect of the lack of housing. Not too far away from where I live they are proposing to build on Grade 1 agricultural land. At a time when we are almost entirely dependent on the rest of the world for our energy supplies with all the effect that has had on our bills, I think it's madness to go further down that road with regard to our food supplies. No-one seems to be doing any joined up thinking.

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 22:13:17

Farage 'man of the people' act is utter bullshit. He is a privately educated ex stockbroker, who has pocketed two million pounds from the EU an institution he claims to dispise.

Ed Milliband has never been touched by issues related to immigration? Really? You do know that his parents are refugees from the Holocaust don't you.

Why not head over to the Daily Mail boards mumzy? You'd like it there, along with the unthinking ill-informed spiteful bullshit there are also pictures of WAGs 'flaunting their enviable curves.'

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 22:18:09

Me too Penelope. Me too. And Hitler started with a coalition and then all hell broke loose. I don't think for one minute his initial policies that he made public mentioned anything like killing 6 million Jews and others but that is what he did.

If UKIP get any foothold in government, no matter how small, I shall be very very frightened for my severely disabled ds.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 22:34:24

So Composhat are you happy with the nhs, school and housing provision of services we have in the UK at the moment?

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 22:36:15

Give the tories and ukip a chance and there will be no nhs, free schools and housing.

Housing was always at a premium anyway, even in areas where they have a low immigrant population.

I hate UKIP and everything they stand for. I think they are the thin end of the wedge. Ufortunately they currently have a carismatic leader (unlike several other parties) who glosses over some of their more dodgy members' opinions and who plays to quite frankly the lowest common denominator, i.e. the Daily Mail / Express target reader. I hope beyond home that the Mail doesn't decide to back them during the next election, but feel it is a dangerous possibility.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 18-Jan-13 22:42:16

It's very strange how the UKIP manifesto stating that disabled people would be moved into 'congregate communities' is still google-able yet the document has disappeared...

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 22:44:57

I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children.

allgoingtoshitnow Fri 18-Jan-13 22:45:09

Posters invoking Hitler or Nazis in their arguments about UKIP clearly know fuck all about what UKIP stand for.

And they are generally silly PC twats whos parties of choice are going to be voted out because they dont listen to the country, and more often than not those parties are responsible for the fucked up state the UK is in. The UK doesn't want more immigration and it doesn't want further integration with the EU.

Not all posters invoking Nazis are like this of course. Just some of them.

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 22:49:17

May be, but it doesn't want to euthanise the old either or put the disabled into congregate communities either.

I'm not calling UKIP Nazis btw. Just pointing out the horribly similar way that the Nazis came to power.

sukysue The current government aren't doing much to help disabled children.... Plenty of people voted for them

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 22:55:11

So Composhat are you happy with the nhs, school and housing provision of services we have in the UK at the moment?

No, but then UKIP's Policies - such as they are - seem like re-hashed sub Thathcherite nonsense that would be an absolute disaster for the provision of public services.

Thankfully, there is not a hope in hell they will win a seat at the next election under first past the post. All they'll do is carve a few thousand votes off sitting Tory MPs, which is brillinat news for all of us who want the Tories out.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 22:57:15

Well isn't this coalition govt killing old people 'legally' by the use of the 'Liverpool Pathway'. You cannot tell me they don't know what goes on in the NHS they spend enough money on endless bloody surveys.

No. The Liverpool Pathway is a care system for people who are already dying, for whom nothing can be done other than make their end as comfortable as possible. It might be worth you reading up on it.

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 23:02:31

This government takes the biscuit for the worst in my lifetime and I lived through Heath.

But would you want that coalition to include a party that wants to take away parental choice and put all disabled children (regardless of ability) into special schools? Do you want a party that wants to put all disabled adults into completely underfunded and inappropriate institutions?

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 23:06:50

I work with disabled children and we have just moved into a new school shared with able bodied children. It is a wonderful job and place, really inspiring. The children are unbelievable they make my day week month year. I absolutely love them. It is partly because I work with them ,that I worry about their continued funding if the resources are spread even more. They need so much. I am fighting now for them to have a wheelchair scales , they can't even get weighed, something so simple that we able bodied persons take for granted. Life is so unfair. Prapps you can see where I am coming from now. It's all so hopeless. Is there really no one who cares anymore in politics?

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 23:09:48

In fact, has anyone ever really cared since Aneurin Bevan?

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 23:12:05

Oh Mr Bevan. Brilliant man. I see where you're coming from, Suky.

Is there really no one who cares anymore in politics?

Tough question. As much as I abhor some of the choices Labour made last time round, if I had a vote in the UK (which I don't) I would give them it next time. They seem to not care the least.

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 23:13:22

This is what I dont understand Suky, where anyone expects these extra resources to come from and they have to be pulled from somewhere.

On Question time they said other countries borders would be open this time - so the 29 million will not all head straight for us.

Fair enough - but what benefits do the other countries with open borders offer?
Didnt that guy on QT say after three months you can claim?

This is what I cant get my head round - you have the most vulnerable in our society being funded and protected by the public purse - their benefits are already be hit and housing etc - how is this going to improve , if you put more strain on the public purse?

What has happened in this country has punished the poorest the most.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 18-Jan-13 23:16:20

The problem is that the three major players offer very little difference between them, so voters opt for ever more extreme parties based on one key issue, in this case immigration, without looking into further policies.

Ie no state education or healthcare, euthanasia for the elderly, congregate communities for disabled people.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 18-Jan-13 23:20:11

I think there should be more immigration until the Little Englander, Daily Mail reading UKIP voters are strongly outnumbered.

The alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 23:20:36

Nigel said 'if you declare yourself self employed you can claim benefits from day 1' is this right ? I don't know what benefits other countries give to fellow EU migrants either. It seems to me we, (the British public) are ill informed on all things political. There is no education in schools as far as I can see I feel like I need to take a crash course in it to be able to vote in the next election.

moondog Fri 18-Jan-13 23:20:39

"· Re-examine community care and support congregate communities for people with learning
disabilities......

........· Abandon the policy of ‘inclusion’ and allow
parents to chose special schools for children with
learning disabilities"

Hazy whatever your right on sensibilities would lead you to believe, the obsession with 'inclusion' and community care has led to a lot of damage. Many children and adults with learning disabilities (and their families) would be happier to see them in close communities where they are accepted for who they are.

Believe me 'inclusion' is not all it is cracked up to be.
Consider the rise in community living for older people. It has status and is increasing in popularity because, quite naturally, many people like to be with others in the same situation

wouldulikeit Fri 18-Jan-13 23:22:46

I was wondering the exact same thing eliza but surely all being part of the EU they must also offer benefits or are there benefit systems not as generous as ours and why our country is seen as the more attractive option?

GothAnneGeddes Fri 18-Jan-13 23:24:44

The widespread, horrific abuse that happened in the "communities" where people with disabilities were is well known.

WTAF, would you want people with disabilities to be kept away from society?

UKIP are evil for even suggesting such a thing.

Also, Private Eye has been covering UKIP's links with the far right for many years - they have plenty.

Actually benefits in most EU countries are similar. The whole benefit scrounging immigrant welcoming freaking catastrophe is being built up by the press. Or lovely free press.

our lovely free press free to lie but wouldn
.t have it any other way

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 18-Jan-13 23:26:10

Generalisations like that are largely bollocks.

I know nobody with disabilities who would like to give up the life and home they currently have to move to a ghetto.

Inclusion isn't always the best option, and parents should have more recourse to special provision if required, but those desiring inclusion for their child should not be denied this.

Oh and wanting to be with their own kind... If you said that based on someone's race would that be acceptable?

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 23:26:27

But then Penelopee I really think Ed Milliband has very quietly and slowly started to capture the public mood, he was ahead of the curve on tax arrangements for big business, phone hacking and te policy of manically cutting the deficit at all costs. He's not a charisma politician, but I think he's on the right tracks.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 23:28:00

'Ie no state education or healthcare, euthanasia for the elderly, congregate communities for disabled people.' Is this really what UKIP have said? Why didn't the other members of the panel discuss this with him last night? How can they let it go? Why do they ? Is it because they are not strong enough to challenge him?

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 18-Jan-13 23:28:09

Still supports welfare reform... Still leader of the party that gave this country ATOS...

elizaregina Fri 18-Jan-13 23:28:27

Goth

horrific abuse of people with LD is also alive and kicking in the inclusion community as well. I dont know anything of UKIPS policies - or anything about thier stance on the disbaled.

HOwever - inlcusion in the comminty for some people with LD is failing horrifically.

Ed Miliband is not blessed with charisma but the more I see of him, the more I like him.

PeneloPeePitstop Fri 18-Jan-13 23:30:36

Suky many purely perceive UKIP to be Tories with immigration policies. When you read in depth, as I have done, as I am genuinely trying to find a party I can ally myself with (will never forgive Labour for ATOS and Miliband's comments on Welfare Reform) it's frightening.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 23:31:47

It's not failing in my wonderful school thank god.

"I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children."

Awww.. you are so sweet and innocent.

manicbmc Fri 18-Jan-13 23:33:18

My ds is not included within the community (for everyone's safety and his) - though he does have limited contact in a very controlled way.

What UKIP want is the return to institutions where people are medicated to be least trouble. Under UKIP, due to stomach problems that lead to him being sick in the night, my ds would probably be so drugged up that he would choke on his own vomit. But I don't think they'd care. Keep all these troublesome disabled people together - they won't care if you have CP and your needs are different from someone with autism. All in together.

I worry. I really do.

sukysue Fri 18-Jan-13 23:38:49

I can see why you are worrying Manicbmc, I am too. There doesn't seem to be anything we can do does there ? It's all so frustrating and hopeless. I am going to do something about it though, even if it's just to get my kids a bloody scales.
I must go now I need more education on all this. Goodnight everyone.

austenozzy Fri 18-Jan-13 23:41:36

farage went to my school. so did lord haw-haw. probably all you need to know!

ComposHat Fri 18-Jan-13 23:43:37

I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children

Jesus wept.

I feel like I need to take a crash course in it to be able to vote in the next election

Yes you do.

It isn't hard, we can access vast swathes of information from anywhere in the world in seconds! This would have blown people's minds even 20 years ago. It is like standing on top of a pile of gold nuggets and saying 'I'm poor'

There are TV channels devoted to parliament, the proceedings are covered on the radio every night, there are newspapers and mangazines that cover politics from a variety of standpoints. There is absolutely no excuse for being ill-informed on what a political party stands for before advocating support for them or casting a vote.

hazeyjane Sat 19-Jan-13 08:04:11

Hazy whatever your right on sensibilities would lead you to believe

Moondog, I put those quotes in, because someone had questioned the idea that ukip were aiming to put an end to inclusion in schools, and bring back ideas that a lot of people believe would lead to the segregation of people with disabilities.

Yes I am aware that there have been a lot of failings in the way inclusion has been implemented in mainstream, and for some children and in some schools it does not work. But surely there are many different children with many different disabilities, and where special school may be the best option for some, in other cases a mainstream setting with the right support, would be the best option.

The same goes for adult 'communities'. I just think these sort of policies appeal to the idea that a lot of people have of children and adults with disabilities as being 'other' to the rest of society. That doesn't mean I don't think special schools and adult communities aren't positive things that are the best choice for some, but in lots of cases inclusion can work.

I know you are very experienced in this field, and my own experience is limited to the experience of trying to navigate my way through the world of special needs provision. My son is only 2.6, so I have dipped less than my little toe in, and yet I have already filled out endless forms, had many meetings with lots of professionals, spent hours on the phone trying to work out who is supposed to provide what for my child. We are in the middle of the statementing process now, I have just filled out an 18 page form, and am trying to arrange a meeting between 12 people to discuss what support there will be for my son, and that is just for preschool! Thoughts of the future terrify me, at the moment I think special school will be the best option for primary, but we also have a local primary with very good sen provision - I am glad we have that choice. As for further down the line, well I can't look that far ahead, but I hope we have options that will suit ds.

It is very easy to me write off as having 'right on sensibilities', and maybe I do, but I also have very real fears for the future, so it hurts when you write about those fears in such a blithe way. I know I need to grow a thicker skin.

PolkadotCircus Sat 19-Jan-13 08:18:16

Ukip seem to be the only lot left that actually care about those of us stuck in the middle,there is no other party that has anything for the squeezed middle as far as I'm concerned.

An awful lot of ignorant hysteria over Ukip.

I've gone from labour
(wasted a stack load of money and Miliband is too weak to libdem(will never,ever vote for them again after their lies),considered Tory but after their blatant unfairness over CB which they still refuse to acknowledge,consistent looking after of their own ie the rich and the grey vote,consistent ill thought out policies,consistent shafting of the middle they can take a running jump too.

Sooooo that leaves Ukip who have some really good stuff in their a manifesto if anybody cares to actually look.They'd get rid off tuition fees,wind farms(which are pretty crap and we're all paying for in our hiked up bills),the Europe question....

Anybody like to make another possible suggestion for those of us in the middle?No I thought not,there isn't anybody!!!

moondog Sat 19-Jan-13 09:48:57

I do apologise Hazey. I misunderstood the tone and purpose of your post.
I agree with all that you say and know how complex and exhausting the whole process is. Like wading through waist high cold porridge.

Choice is paramount at every stage and transparency about what each placement can offer. At present I do think that transparency is not there and as a result, in schools for example, mainstream schools are valiantly attempting to educate children with very complex needs who are falling further nad further behind. They are too scared to voice their complete lack of ability to help the child for fear of being seen as discriminatory so all stay silent.

Looks great on paper but in fact, itmeans precious time has been wasted during a window when the child could really have been helped.

Do you post on the SN board? Yor name is not familiar to me but if not, please hurry over and join us. smile

lljkk Sat 19-Jan-13 10:49:38

Sometimes I would love to see UKIP in power. Lots of homeless legal residents and their children on the streets and suffering for lack of medical care. An extra tier of elected government sort of running parallel with many other tiers of local government and extra messy lines of responsibility for everything. Lots of gridlock on the roads, NIMBYism left to run riot, employers grumbling louder than ever that they can't find any British people willing to do menial low paid jobs. Hospital carparks overflowing with random cars left there since parking would now be free. NHS grinding to a halt due to low staffing levels, as it can't afford the private medical insurance bill for a third of its staff and as foreigners they wouldn't be eligible for care on the NHS, either.

elizaregina Sat 19-Jan-13 11:41:52

AND moondog -

going off topic of the thread here - there is something to be said for people with LD being placed alone - in poor housing - being very vulnerable. They are sadly not only vulnerable to those around them - but also thier own " support workers".

I know there is some success - but the current system is very far from perfect and you dont need to scratch to far below the surface to discover its a chaotic free for all out there....

hazeyjane Sat 19-Jan-13 12:55:31

Thankyou Moondog.

I agree about the transparency. When we found out ds had disabilities, we sat around a table at a TAC meeting, overwhelmed that all these professionals were there to support ds. And then as time went on we discovered that actually being part of the sn nursery we attend,prevented us from accessing help we needed (different districts), and that the sn preschool were completely inflexible regarding ds (and his chronic separation anxiety), meaning we had spent a year and a half trying to build a relationship between ds and his keyworker only to realise he would have to go to a different preschool, and I am still waiting for a meeting with the SALT who recommended a gastrostomy tube for ds, following a videofluoroscopy a year ago - because she is from a different district to ds's SALT......etc etc.

As you say it is like trying to wade through porridge, or something slightly less wholesome...

I have been going on the sn boards since realising ds had problems at about 7 months old. I have had more advice and support there than anywheresmile

carlajean Sat 19-Jan-13 12:57:17

referring to the original point, the main reason why UKIP is popular,and Nigel Farage did well on QT, is their stance on immigration. Whether you agree with them or not, all the other parties are effectively ignoring the problem, as are all the posters on here who come on condemning people who are concerned as racist (and closing down the subject). So - if the major parties were prepared to listen to the electorate,and acknowledge their opinions, UKIP would lose alot of popularity, end of problem.

wouldulikeit Sat 19-Jan-13 13:10:38

I agree Carla. I watched question time and agreed with Nigel Farage regarding immigration - would I vote for Ukip? No. But does this make me racist for agreeing with him? and more importantly where does this leave me? I have no faith in this government or Labour or believe any of them are truly listening or representing me.

How would this country operate if we weren't part of the EU? Who the hell really knows but I do know that I'd like the opportunity to have my say and a vote.

colleysmill Sat 19-Jan-13 20:17:09

I think there have been some very salient points raised around inclusion on this thread. I have seen inclusion work brilliantly and fail miserably for different people. I think things only work when decisions are made jointly with the person (and their specific needs) at the centre of them. The problem I guess is that most political policies are generalised and so they will never work for everyone.

I worked with a service for adults with LD for some years and I recall reading a paper (which sadly i have mislaid since) about a brief history of LD. Institutions (or what became the asylums) originally were set up to protect people with additional needs from the persecution from the rest of society, to keep them safe and nuture them. It was only later the emphasis changed to protection of mainstream society from "the inmates". Likewise parents in the very very early days (i think BC) were considered special if their child was born with a disability as they were thought to have been identified and blessed by the fairies or the Gods.

Anyway I digress from the OP. Farage, I find, is an eloquent speaker. He has, what my granny would say, the gift of the gab. I think UKIP appeal in a way the Libdems did in the last election, lots of sound bites which appeal to people who find the main 2 parties don't speak for them anymore. Whether there is substance to their policies is another matter entirely.

tuonela Mon 21-Jan-13 18:11:10

ComposHat, are you prepared to tolerate any view other than your own? It seems not, and any dissenters are curtly told get off the forum. That's right, we're all unthinking, ill-informed, spiteful and simply too thick to grasp the benefits of unfettered immigration. Could you please explain why you believe an open-door immigration policy should not be questioned?

GothAnneGeddes, I understand you can not bear the thought of anything other than the complete destruction of those who wish to maintain an identity with a British culture. Does your genocidal fervor also extend to other cultures – for instance, would you like to see Italian or Japanese culture subsumed and destroyed, or is it just the British way of life you hate?

PessaryPam Mon 21-Jan-13 18:33:08

I am confused about the euthanising (sp?) of the over 80s that manicbmc mentions. I looked at the 2012 manifesto (http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/UKIPlocalManifesto2012.pdf) and it said this:-

To keep the health service safe and protect our
elderly and disabled people
We will
&#159; Let the people elect county boards to oversee vital
services.
&#159; Halt all cuts in front-line NHS doctors, surgeons,
dentists and nurses’.
&#159; Axe failing, surplus NHS management.
&#159; Reintroduce proper matrons to run clean hospitals.
&#159; Return nurses training back to hospitals rather than
University class rooms.
&#159; Make specialist care available as needed, to save
lives now lost through delay.
&#159; Cut waiting lists to European levels - Poland treats
cancer patients faster than we do.
To pay for these commitments
We will
&#159; Restrict free health care only to UK Citizens.
&#159; Require all visitors to exhibit adequate health
insurance at the port of entry.
Introduce lifelong private insurance against the
costs of long-term care.

Perhaps manicbmc could post links to her allegations?

PessaryPam Mon 21-Jan-13 18:37:22

austenozzy Fri 18-Jan-13 23:41:36 farage went to my school. so did lord haw-haw. probably all you need to know!

But what does this say about you austenozzy?

tuonela Tue 22-Jan-13 19:03:05

Would be interested to hear any kind of response from ComposHat or GothAnneGeddes regarding my previously posed questions...

ComposHat, are you prepared to tolerate any view other than your own? It seems not, and any dissenters are curtly told get off the forum. That's right, we're all unthinking, ill-informed, spiteful and simply too thick to grasp the benefits of unfettered immigration. Could you please explain why you believe an open-door immigration policy should not be questioned?

GothAnneGeddes, I understand you can not bear the thought of anything other than the complete destruction of those who wish to maintain an identity with a British culture. Does your genocidal fervor also extend to other cultures – for instance, would you like to see Italian or Japanese culture subsumed and destroyed, or is it just the British way of life you hate?

Mrcrumpswife Tue 22-Jan-13 19:16:56

sukysue I don't know what they stand for, are you seriously saying that disabled children will be at risk? No one in their right mind would vote for a party who would hurt these children

Thats the most ironic thing i have read on Mumsnet in ages. Have you googled Operation Fernbridge. I'd be more worried about the shower of shit that are voted in now than UKIP.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-launch-criminal-investigation-into-mps-child-sex-ring-8456434.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2265371/Names-politicians-royal-aides-famous-pop-star-list-seized-police-investigating-child-paedophile-ring-suburban-B-amp-B-guest-house.html

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