16 kids and counting...

(379 Posts)
thatisall Fri 11-Jan-13 21:47:38

I genuinely don't know what I think, have no strong opinions about their lifestyle, life choices etc etc.....my first thoughts were that it was just too many but they seem very nice and happy lol

Am I being unreasonable to want to chat about the show on here anyway?

No I'm not a jour no trying to get a MN quote before someone suggests it....

....just sat at home alone thinking 16....? 16!? :-O

terilou87 Fri 11-Jan-13 21:57:06

i was just watching it, yeah i was also thinking 16!! how do they cope. they do seem like a happy familiy but how much of it is put on for cameras.
can u imagine all the sibling fights. im one of 4 and we used to always fight and argue
it must be a very stressful life for the parents. hats off to them though, id be in the looney bin by now with that many children.

Kayano Fri 11-Jan-13 21:58:08

probably get Galesburg I think it's pretty irresponsible to have 16 kids

KobayashiMaru Fri 11-Jan-13 21:58:22

there is a whole topic for tv, and a thread about this show, so YABU, go to the right place.

LuluMai Fri 11-Jan-13 21:58:38

They do seem such a lovely and chilled out family! The dad in particular is such a nice fella!

thatisall Fri 11-Jan-13 21:58:44

Hats off indeed. All beautiful children, well behaved, well turned out etc etc, but I was the oldest of five and us older ones ended up looking after the little ones all the time!

Kayano Fri 11-Jan-13 21:59:01

Galesburg? flamed!

thatisall Fri 11-Jan-13 21:59:57

haha! I did wonder what a galesburg was?

thatisall Fri 11-Jan-13 22:01:32

I'm not sure I'd carry on if I was told, my health was seriously at risk...not really fair on the children you already have? Then again I'm probably just projecting my own feelings about lots of children. i don't know. I didn't expect them to look that happy I think.

terilou87 Fri 11-Jan-13 22:02:20

kayano at the risk of sounding stupid, what does probably get galesburg mean??confused never heard that before.

terilou87 Fri 11-Jan-13 22:03:14

already ansered lol

MrsKeithRichards Fri 11-Jan-13 22:04:31

I'm just jealous I can't get one of to school without some tears from someone and they manage all that!

HoHoHoNoYouDont Fri 11-Jan-13 22:05:51

What a lovely family they are.

TraineeBabyCatcher Fri 11-Jan-13 22:11:00

I think they're mad to be fair. I literally couldnt imagine dealing with all that. I love kids and love the idea of one day having a big family but I don't know how they manage the needs of all 16- even if you purely consider there needs around the house, clothes, food, etc.
She does make it look easy to have that many, most people would be running round like headless chickens after about 6! But they do seem like a really nice, well rounded family.

carabos Fri 11-Jan-13 22:19:17

I dunno, I think they're bonkers, but in a lovely sort of way.

pinkoddballs Fri 11-Jan-13 23:00:02

hi all I'm new here.
I interviewed Sue for my blog before the show and she is really nice. I just couldn't believe how much love a couple could have for their children. I think they came across as very well behaved children.

magimedi88 Fri 11-Jan-13 23:04:34

DH & i both said that those kids will grow up & grab the world & have very few 'isshues'.

What a lovely family.

TinyDancingHoofer Fri 11-Jan-13 23:29:47

They seem really nice but i would hate to be one of 16. How often do you think the older kids get to go out for dinner with just mum or just dad? I dunno i guess i wouldn't feel special if my parents had had me and then been like nope, need 15 more this family is not enough. That sounds harsh and quite self important, i don't think i am saying what i mean. Their kids are probably a lot less selfish than me!

apostropheuse Fri 11-Jan-13 23:44:33

I thought they looked happy, loved and well looked after. It's of course entirely their choice how many children they have, provided they can care and provide for them. They obviously were doing this very well.

However, to be honest, I was a bit surprised that they're not ruling out having more, as it's now getting more dangerous for her to be pregnant. The increased chances of her haemorrhaging I would have thought would have put them off having any more.It would be so tragic for that lovely family to lose their mum when it could be avoided.

katiecubs Fri 11-Jan-13 23:58:25

I could not get my head around how they even afforded them all?!?!!

Naysa Sat 12-Jan-13 04:10:44

I'll probably get flamed for asking this but...

How do the parents nurture the older children when there is a constant stream of newborns?

A relative of mine has just had twins and has two much older children (the youngest being twelve years older than the twins) and she's found it hard to make time for the older two so how do hey manage it with 16?

And as for her having another when it is risking her health IMO says a lot about her priorities, I.e it's more important to have another newborn than stay healthy for the kids I already have.

Something about it just doesn't sit right for me ...

Naysa Sat 12-Jan-13 04:13:54

I'll probably get flamed for asking this but...

How do the parents nurture the older children when there is a constant stream of newborns?

A relative of mine has just had twins and has two much older children (the youngest being twelve years older than the twins) and she's found it hard to make time for the older two so how do hey manage it with 16?

And as for her having another when it is risking her health IMO says a lot about her priorities, I.e it's more important to have another newborn than stay healthy for the kids I already have.

Something about it just doesn't sit right for me ...

MrsKeithRichards Sat 12-Jan-13 08:29:42

They seemed very hands on with all of the kids.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 08:42:53

Only saw the trailer and not the programme.

They looked like a lovely family. But I can't get my head why anyone would keep on having baby after after baby after baby.

Something not quite right.

DancingRoundTheKitchen Sat 12-Jan-13 08:55:55

I thought they all stemmed very happy and loved. I think it must be very special to be one of 16 and the siblings all seemed really close. But, I agree with Naysa, there can not be enough hours on the day to give all the children the attention (I think) they need, to nurture the older ones while caring for the younger ones.

LividDil Sat 12-Jan-13 09:02:59

I'm with nayas on this one.
I'd love to see a documentary which talks in depth to the children of a very large family. How do they feel? What is the impact on their adult lives? And I'd like to know more about why parents have the need to have so many children.
While these parents were clearly devoted parents the whole set-up seemed to be based on a knife edge - it wouldn't take much to tip them into catastrophe and leave some of the children taking on the caring roles.

Madmum24 Sat 12-Jan-13 10:11:56

I watched the programme and it seems they are a lovely well adjusted family. I do believe that some people are able to look after lots of children (although 16 is alot!) while some think two kids are a real handful.

It did say that both Sue and Noel are adopted, which is one of the reasons they liked to have so many kids of their own. However it did say that they had their first child, a boy, when Sue was 14, but there was no mention of him in the programme. Did I miss something?

The dad seems very hands on, and my gosh when she came home from the hospital a day after giving birth to no 16 she looked fresher than I do and I only have 5

I would also love an indepth documentary following the family over an extended period of time. The Duggars are an American family with 19 (or 20?) children and they have a programme showing daily life etc.

AlwaysHoldingOnToStarbug Sat 12-Jan-13 10:21:15

I have 5 and my house is messy enough! I thought they seemed to cope very well, I guess they have worked out a routine they stick by, not like my chaotic life! Their kids all seemed lovely and well turned out.

I was surprised the daughter got pregnant, I put my stepdaughter off having babies for a long time by having 5! grin

I thought my house was loud, I bet theirs is very noisy. Though saying that I have a friend with 10 kids and hers make far less noise than mine!

charlottehere Sat 12-Jan-13 10:29:21

Did I hear right, she irons a 100 item s a day, why? I iron hardly anything, only have 4 dcs. grin

Both seem like lovley, devoted parents. However, I don't understand the fiances, they go one foreign holidays <eyes boggle>.

I don't understand how they cope with the housework, 9 loads of washing a day. shock

Some of the kids beds didnt have sheets on and they seemed to have a lot of dcs in one bed.

Yes judgy but thats what happens if you get paid appear on tv.

charlottehere Sat 12-Jan-13 10:32:04

I though it was very unfair on the grandparents to leave the childen with them for 3 days, the grandad just looked over whelmed. When Sue was in hospital Noel could of held the fort and not left it to the gps and the daughter who had a newborn.

Also suprised that Sue and Noel want more when the health risks are significant with so many pregnancies.

bedmonster Sat 12-Jan-13 10:38:26

I think they seem like a loving family.
But I cannot for the life of me understand how they afforded a 10 bed house, and also when the extra passport hassle cost them a grand it was like water off a ducks back to them - they were just so happy to be going away!
My favourite bit was when two of the kids were sat discussing the mums cleaning habits, and he was saying how she'd improved after they'd reached baby number 10, and how she seemed to have it down to a fine art now grin
But also thought the 2 girls were very sweet saying how they were going to be nannys. No, grannys. No, uncles.
Obviously Mum and Dad will be hard pushed to spend quality time with them one on one, but plenty of kids don't get that with only 2 or 3 siblings. To me, they seemed to be doing what most other parents strive to do, and that is their best. Mum clearlyt works hard at keeping the house running smoothly and dad goes to work and mucks in with the kids. They all seemed to be very close I though.
It wouldn't be many peoples choice but they obviously love their children and are enjoying having a large family. Would be interesting to see how many kids they each go on to have.

bedmonster Sat 12-Jan-13 10:43:40

charlotte think the kids all liked to share beds, the mum showed at one point that the kids had their own beds but regularly found them all piled into one bed in the mornings as they liked to be close to each other. And one night the kids pulled the sheets off the beds.
It's obviously a chaotic household!
But i think the Dad did go home as it only said it was the longest they hadn't seen their mum for, not parents, just mentioned the mum.
And as for them leaving their daughter at home alone with their new baby, well she is a grown up and has decided to have a baby. She is an adult. I was the same age when I had my DD. DP and I looked after ourselves.

Anyway, I am in awe and all it has made me do is want more children! I already have 3 and thought that was a large family!

UrsulaBuffay Sat 12-Jan-13 10:44:08

One thing that did strike me was the little boy saying that new babies came along to 'replace' them and that the older ones would still 'be around' he just seemed a little sad about it.

Amazing people overall though.

thatisall Sat 12-Jan-13 10:58:04

I think it was the priorities that worried me. If number 17 or 18 cause mum to be poorly or heaven forbid something worse, what happens to the children?
And what about the social responsibility of making so many new children especially when there are so many children in care?
I also started thinking about adult to child ratios in care settings like nurseries or with child minders: isn't it 4 children to one adult or is it 8? Of it deemed unsafe to have lots of children per adult, is mum looking after 16 whilst ad is at work really responsible?? Or is it that the older ones have responsibility for the younger ones (something that happens in smaller smilies too of course)
sigh

Madmum24 Sat 12-Jan-13 15:05:49

I'd love to have a break down of their finances not that it's my business but I like money saving trips! I can't see how £30k could stretch so far if they fork out £5k annually on a holiday, £3k on birthdays and £700 on school uniforms. I wonder do they own their house outright or do they have a mortgage?

I've been fantisizing all night about a massive family ;-)

I had two thoughts on it:

Fuck that
and
Fanjo like a Bucket.

Sorry.

They did look very happy but do you think they've ever forgotten one of their names?

Dp was horrified by the idea and he's Irish.

I haven't watched it yet but my Granddad was one of 19! I could never get my head around that. My great-nan had 21 pregnancies, two were sadly still-born. Bigger families were a bit more normal back then I think, but even so....19!!!!!

Good luck to 'em if they're happy.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 15:15:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lockets erm, I was being sarcastic.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 15:25:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kim147 Sat 12-Jan-13 15:29:46

That's going to be a lot of grandkids in the future - can you imagine sorting out the presents and cards?

Mylittlepuds Sat 12-Jan-13 16:00:34

I thought they were inspirational in terms of keeping it all together. It's certainly made me question how much I moan with 1 DC and one on the way blush

Not sure if its ideal in terms of attention and the children feeling special. But then again I was one of three and although very much loved by my parents I don't have any real stand out memories of being made a right fuss over.

Feminine Sat 12-Jan-13 16:03:20

At the end, Mum said they didn't think they were done.

Dad looked like this: envy

I think that says it all.

Pound shop for the grand kids!!

I think they seem like a really nice family, the kids are well turned out and their home is clean (cleaner than mine!)

lurcherlover Sat 12-Jan-13 16:28:32

I don't think it is a case of "it's their choice to have 16 kids, up to them". We live on an overcrowded planet as it is, and the impact that first-world families have is much greater than third-world ones. Tbh (go ahead and flame me) I think 16 kids is morally wrong for that reason.

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Happymum22 Sat 12-Jan-13 16:38:01

Thought they were a great family. Not sure about 16 kids and impact on each kid, but their choice and wow are they doing a good job.

I think the kids were great at caring for each other and knowing about risk and safety. Thought maybe the parents could do more spending time with the kdis in smaller groups and paying attention- but tbh can't critisise as I struggled with 4 just keeping everything ticking. The kids also didn't seem to miss out because of being such a large family, they seemed so proud and happy.
Because mum and dad couldn't watch all at once and they had a fair bit of freedom in playing unsupervised and with so many other children, they seemed good at knowing whats a bump and whats serious and how to keep safe when playing.

Happymum22 Sat 12-Jan-13 16:46:01

Also would love a documentary looking at the children in school, how they do, how their personalities are when not around 15 others.

juule Sat 12-Jan-13 16:51:02

How do you mean Happymum?

" how their personalities are when not around 15 others."

they will be around many more than 15 others when they are at school grin

Fellowship I giggled at your comment. Reading the thread title I thought Fuck that. I couldn't imagine anything worse. I live in a mad house with only 3 (and I often muddle up their names grin)

pigletpower Sat 12-Jan-13 17:01:39

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eggs11 Sat 12-Jan-13 17:04:56

I think she's totally selfish. I understand it's her choice to have a lot of children, but her enjoyment from having kids was seeing them all lined up in a row. My enjoyment from my one child is interacting with him and helping him learn, generally enjoying him as a person. There is no way she can enjoy and know her kids on the same level as someone who has 1-5max. I mean she got pregnant when her youngest was 2months old? That is so unfair on a baby not even one to have to share already!!!!

FamiliesShareGerms Sat 12-Jan-13 17:05:20

I reckon once you get past, say, 8 or 9 kids it doesn't really matter whether you have 10, 15 or 20, in that you have already given up on being able to have a normal family car, peace and quiet, one-to-one time with your kids etc etc

I did wonder whether there was some deep rooted issue driving them to create a huge family of siblings, given the fact both parents were adopted, but they did seem a more grounded family than an awful lot of others

(I do have a moral issue with quite so many children,though, the planet can't cope!)

Isityouorme Sat 12-Jan-13 17:05:52

Is this the American programme? Then you are watching an old series as it is now called 19 and counting!!!!!

Just spat out my tea at wizard sleeve gringringringringringringringringrin

RobinSparkles Sat 12-Jan-13 17:07:44

I loved that program! I liked the last one they did, 15 and Counting where they looked at other families but preferred this one because it just focused on them.

I think they seem like a lovely family. They seem so organised and hardworking.

Fair play to them. I find two difficult at times but they make it look easy!

I have to admit that I giggled at the Grandad forgetting one of them in the beginning.

RobinSparkles Sat 12-Jan-13 17:09:00

Not the American Program Isit. It's a program on Channel 4 last night about a family from Morecambe.

soverylucky Sat 12-Jan-13 17:09:07

You can't give 16 kids the same amount of attention as you can as 4, 5, 6 or whatever. I say this as someone who came from a big family. I was loved, happy and well cared for. I did well at school etc but I would have dearly loved to have had more one to one time with my parents.

Isit no, not the American family. Think they're past 19 now

eggs11 Sat 12-Jan-13 17:10:18

do you think they are that organised though? It was very staged. In the bowling they all took of their shoes one by one for a good camera shot, they all left the house one by one, like a montage everytime they did something, all in turns. I don't believe it.

Viviennemary Sat 12-Jan-13 17:13:02

I wouldn't watch it on principle. Having 16 children these days is massively irresponsible and selfish. That's my opinion.

LividDil Sat 12-Jan-13 17:14:06

I didn't get the impression that the children were that happy - lively and energetic and cute maybe - but happy? I'm thinking especially of the 12 year old boy.

orlakielylover Sat 12-Jan-13 17:14:24

No, this is the UK programme.

The Duggars show is 19 kids and counting

expatinscotland Sat 12-Jan-13 17:16:39

I think having that many kids is irresponsible and didn't watch the show because I think glorifiying having that many kids and having a baby when you're a teenager irresponsible, too.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 17:18:49

I thought they looked like a lovely happy, lots if love and the kids seem Happy. I loved the bit where she was trying to get the baby to turn and they were all copying her and when dad was doing baking with some of the little ones. They seemed very laid back but I guess you would gave to be and routine seemed key. She has/has a blog where she talks about family life,

The elder son has left home and one if the elder gurlks us planning to go to uni next year.

Much nicer than the duggars who get the kids to do all the work and who have 'interesting' discipline methods and awful views on women's place and education.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 17:21:02

I don't think it glorified it, it showed it was hard work and the 'irresponsible' teen that had a baby was working right up to the end of her preg and she said it wasn't planned or ideal.

expatinscotland Sat 12-Jan-13 17:23:23

Giving them shows, air time, that's glorifying it. And yes, accidents happen, but it's not ideal to have a baby as a teenager and giving it press doesn't help.

Oodhousekeeping Sat 12-Jan-13 17:24:53

Re financing the house- have you seen prices in morecambe? grin

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 17:25:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 17:28:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 17:28:40

I felt a bit sad for one of the little boys as his parents missed his birthday as they were in hospital. But I thought it was really sweet that they all snuck out of their rooms and into each others to share beds and be together. One bed had 5 children sleeping in it with lots of empty beds left in other rooms grin

One of my friends is from a big family like this, they've been on one of these programmes too. She hated it growing up and was always embarrassed whenever anyone mentioned it. The family put on a lot for the cameras but when they were alone the older ones looked after the younger children a lot. Her mum is also quite obsessed with little newborns and she told me that once a child gets to about 2yrs she loses interest and then wants another tiny baby again.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 17:30:21

Well blame the TV producers the expat they make it and decide what to show. There are far worse prig like jersey shore or whatever the fuck its called and a program about holidaying in kavis all about unprotected sex and itrespinsubke drinking but its all tens having a 'good time'-

This family are hard working and living an ordinary life tbh.

They come across as a lovely family.

StuckOnARollercoaster Sat 12-Jan-13 17:33:02

My judgey pants were well hoiked up when I saw the trailer and didn't intend to watch it last night - but there was bugger else on and ended up watching it and I was fascinated!

They came across as a lovely family - and for me it was nice to see that they weren't relying on the state to fund their lifestyle choices completely. Clearly their bakery must be doing well as he was still working there and the older daughter also worked there.

There house was a combination of chaotic, but you could tell it was clean and there was a level of order in there as to how they deal with life, the school run and getting everyone fed.

Yes the older kids don't get much one-to-one from each parent but given that there was so much love in that house, I'm not sure how essential that is to become a well rounded person if you are surrounded by so much family love. Sure they will argue and there will be tensions, but maybe I am naive to think that they are dealing with them well.

There were some really lovely moments captured on film (the kids baking with dad, the sister changing a siblings nappy, the kids copying mum trying to get the baby to turn and the sock with the big hole in it!) and I felt really uplifted at the end of the programme. Good luck to the family for the future. (Although I hope they don't get too much bigger and start chasing 20 because it seems like a round number and will get them in the record books...)

OwlLady Sat 12-Jan-13 17:33:04

I think they seemed a lovely family too but I do wonder how they cope if one of them is ill or if anything happened. I only have 3 but my eldest is severely disabled and I hurt my back a week a ago and have been really struggling and dh is finding it difficult to cope and work just with our 3

but anyway, it's none of my business it had just crossed my mind that it's a lot of children for one person to just cope with

expatinscotland Sat 12-Jan-13 17:33:26

'Well blame the TV producers the expat they make it and decide what to show.'

And the family decided to participate in it. I find it irresponsible to have that many kids and irresponsible to glorify it by giving it airtime in media, so I didn't watch it, or shows like the Duggars or those other people who had all those multiples (there are several of those out there), or others like Teen Mom or 16 and Pregnant.

Viviennemary Sat 12-Jan-13 17:34:57

No matter how lovely they are they are a drain on NHS and education services. Does this selfish and irresponsible woman stop to think for a moment that life is about more than just what she wants. I expect not. This has infuriated me! Glad I didn't watch it.

OwlLady Sat 12-Jan-13 17:35:49

oh god I watched teen mom today as well for the first time ever and there were lots of teen moms screaming at their own moms and acting like, erm teenagers. I have never watched it before. can you tell i am incapacitated? blush and I was a young mum fwiw though not a teen mum and my mum, well I never saw her because she was 43 and working full time so the only person i could scream at was myself grin

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 17:45:22

Yes they did decide to participate in it, they are not forcing anyone to watch it or to have the same lifestyle.

You may think its irresponsible on a global level but many European countries need birth rates to rise and help support an ageing population.

I assume they get some money from the prig? And from the publicity? They have a blog/website and if utv supplements their income why not. So many people do far worse things and they do genuinely work hard running their own bakery, the kids are loved and well looked after.

And as for blaming it all on the mother, it does take two to make a baby.

Ta very muchly verytelly and piglet.

Locket- overreaction? Says the poster who reported it a comment to MNHQ hmm

manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 17:53:49

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twinklestar2 Sat 12-Jan-13 17:54:01

When the VoiceOver said the labour was 20 mins, my OH said I'm not surprised!

I wonder when she found the time and energy to have sex!

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 17:57:31

fellowship, what you said was uncalled for and anyone could have reported that comment confused.

She accused me of overreacting. I'm merely pointing out she got my message deleted. Have seen lots of instances of posters telling other posters to fuck off and have not seen them deleted.

I'd tell you to do the same but then you'd probably do the same <yawn>

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 17:59:37

The lab our for baby 15 was quite long, she has had some short lab ours and some quick. It doesn't necessarily get easier.

My first was 3days, second 7 he's, third 3 he's, fourth under 1 hour and then no five took 3 hours and was actually my hardest labour yet my smallest baby.

She does seem to do pregnancy very well, I have had easy pregnancies but I couldnt imagine doing it another 11times!

I doubt it catching She thought she was being clever.

She wasn't.

Apparently its a crime to use sarcasm all of a sudden on MN.

Wonders where SP is when you need her

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:02:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 18:03:34

Fellowship you really seem to be spoiling for a fight, do calm down dear.

More like certain people are trying to goad me into one <yawn>

LadyBeagleEyes Sat 12-Jan-13 18:07:49

I agree with expat, whether or not they are a lovely family, it is still very irresponsible to have that many. I think the mum is just addicted to newborns and babies, and when they grow up, she needs another.

LineRunner Sat 12-Jan-13 18:08:20

Tbh, there's the 'fuck off' you say to another poster in clear and obvious jest and where the context is somehow witty; and there's the 'fuck off' that comes across as a bit pissy.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:10:36

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Oodhousekeeping Sat 12-Jan-13 18:12:22

I agree with expat on the 'glorifying' point. I usually avoid the reality type shows fit that reason. One that really winds me up with its trailer is 'Tool academy'

You clearly are lockets. Clearly. How many other "obvious" comments/jokes have others made on the thread? So why single my comment out?

Whatever.

And for the record Linerunner, I was being sarcastic not pissy. As a blogger I am used to people being all high and mighty for no reason against one person and not many others.

Just expected better here.

Sadly, I was misinformed about the nature of MN.

manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 18:16:02

<yawn>

Finney2 Sat 12-Jan-13 18:16:50

I am one of eight children. I don't really have anything negative to say about my childhood other than we didn't have all that much money. It was, and still is, amazing to have so much love and support around.

I didn't really get any one-on-one time with my parents but I don't think that is of all that much importance really. FWIW we are all (including my autistic brother) very happy, have good mental health, and have done very well academically. We all have degrees, good jobs and very healthy relationships with our husbands.

None of us live off benefits or are a drain on the economy. I think being part of a big family inspired us to be competitive, independent, scrupulously even-handed and motivated to help others.

I wouldn't change my childhood for all the tea in China.

juule Sat 12-Jan-13 18:17:59

"possibly as it was the sort of comment people do make about larger families. "

Very true, Lockets. And it can come across as sneery.
I can't see what Lockets said that upset Fellowship so badly.

MorrisZapp Sat 12-Jan-13 18:17:59

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hifi Sat 12-Jan-13 18:21:01

i wondered how they afforded them all,the business looked like a little sandwich shop. must have a huge turnover .

Morris your point?

There is a lot of bitching and nastiness (not with me I hasten to add but I see a lot of it, hence why I don't use Twitter anymore) in blogging circles. I'd not experienced it before here, and its saddens me.

Perhaps those who warned me that should someone decide they don't like you here, the rest jump on you like a bunch of vultures were right.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:21:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 18:25:39

fellowship you've been unfair to lockets imo and have overreacted. She is the one of the least offensive posters on MN and I don't like how you picked her out like this.

If you want a fight pick someone who is arsed.

Whatever everlong she has just admitted to singling me out, but apparently cos you know her thats fine.

Well, whatever.

HQ are happy for me to be bullied and I dont want to be a part of a site that allows that to go on. I've seen another poster be bullied in a witchhunt recently and that was bad enough.

LineRunner Sat 12-Jan-13 18:27:43

I agree lockets is a very nice poster and people are defending her because MN is at heart a decent forum.

manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 18:28:13

Ooh it's a flouncer

manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 18:28:48

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everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 18:32:14

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lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:32:17

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NcNcNcNc Sat 12-Jan-13 18:33:41

lockets grin

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manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 18:34:35

Ooooohh that's me told

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 18:35:11

<<drags lockets of this bonkers thread and offers wine>>

Jeez arse.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 18:36:20

Am guessing yours was pretty much the last post pockets read and with comments like 'bucket fanjo' etc it was inviting replies.

Its as sodding talk board's you post and people reply, thats the idea!

Really you are overreacting fellowship

MammaTJ Sat 12-Jan-13 18:36:58

I have three DC and was in intensive care after the third. I would have liked another but my view is that my children need their mum much more than I needed another baby.

The doctors didn't tell me I couldn't but after two EMCS and the experience of my girls being brought to the hospital potentially to say goodbye to me, I was not going to push it.

I think to continue to have babies even if it risks your health is selfish under those circumstamces. Different if you have no DC and risk it for one.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:37:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 18:38:35

Sorry lockets not pickets bloody auto correct.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:38:38

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manormuppet Sat 12-Jan-13 18:38:40

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everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 18:39:51

Cheers my dear wine and breathe wink

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everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 18:43:11

But that's what you do on a forum. You know, respond to people's posts. That's how it works.

You were in the wrong for telling her to fuck off. Can you not see that?

Are you new here or what?

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:44:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 18:46:37

But posters tend to respond to the most recent comments in a thread, and the comments most recent are fresh in your mind etc, she masy not have read all the posts. I don't always or I Weill just skim read.

Really you are over thinking this!

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 18:47:49

And helpful hint, if you wasn't posters to detect the 'tone' or sarcasm of a post it can help to use smilies smile

So its my fault you don't get sarcasm? Because you don't get a joke, I'm now subjected to abuse which HQ are allowing to carry on? Perhaps wen I then pointed that out to you, you should have said, oh sorry, didn't realise, rather than making some smarmy comment, supposedly clever comment about it being an obvious joke. You actually said you knew I was joking, so which is it?

I've now got the MN bitch brigade out in force. For what? You not getting a joke.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 18:54:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 18:54:49

Er there is no bitch brigade but if you do start another thread which is about an ongoing thread and also a dig/bitch about another poster it will attract attention.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 18:55:55

Who you calling a bitch?

Right Locket. Sure you didn't.

hmm

usualsuspect Sat 12-Jan-13 18:58:55

I think you should just drop it now Fellow, just walk away.

It's not worth all this argy bargy.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 18:59:08

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No usual I wont. I wont be hounded out. i wasn't in the wrong, and I wont back down. I know certain people have no lives and take every opportunity to kick people regardless, but I wont just walk away when I know I am in the right.

mumagain38 Sat 12-Jan-13 19:01:18

jesus actually had a genuine comment but last page was just a load of hair pulling! sad I thought we were allowed to comment on other comments on a thread as this was the nature of MN, a discussion forum? How easy is it to flare up on here?!

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 19:01:34

I wasn't sticking up for locket because I know her, I don't recognise either you or locket tbh so it's definitely not a case of favouritism etc.

Sorry you feel like you're being bullied but that's really not the case, I genuinely read your post and didn't detect the sarcasm (I read it a couple of times to be sure) and think you've been unfair towards locket.

When I'm being sarcastic here I try and use smileys to make it a bit more obvious, as I know posts can sometimes be misinterpreted.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:01:46

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usualsuspect Sat 12-Jan-13 19:02:09

Take some time out then , go have a cup of tea and calm down. People will just pile in else.

Sorry you feel hounded. Talk to MNHQ they will respond.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 19:02:11

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

But none of you have been nasty to me then?

Whatever.

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 19:03:06

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WelshMaenad Sat 12-Jan-13 19:03:11

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everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:04:34

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NoelHeadbands Sat 12-Jan-13 19:04:54

Oh come on. What you wanted was a thread full of 'yeah, miserable bastards aren't they?"

What you got was a thread full of "err actually no".

Your nose is out of joint because of that, hurt pride, pure and simple.

Suck it up. The other thread is going now anyway, so step away and forget about it.

Excuse me, Noel you don't know me. I am angry yeah, true enough, but because I hate bullies and I know I did nothing wrong to deserve the abuse and yes, bullying I've had.

My pride is intact. I know I'm right.

ILoveOnionRings Sat 12-Jan-13 19:09:12

Isn't this thread about 16 Kids and counting - if you have not got a comment to make about this topic why don't you just leave the thread instead of having an almighty row!

I feel sorry for the Op who has their thread derailed by a load of bickering - have some wine

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 19:09:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

NoelHeadbands Sat 12-Jan-13 19:10:07

And I know you're wrong smile

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:10:58

You're not right. Far from it. And there's only you thinking it.

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lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 19:12:30

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 19:13:09

I've just realised there was another thread about this, went to have a peek and it's been deleted already.

ILoveOnionRings Sat 12-Jan-13 19:13:16

Sadly Fellow and all other posters who have waded in - this has turned into a bun fight

lockets Sat 12-Jan-13 19:13:46

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WelshMaenad Sat 12-Jan-13 19:14:10

Lockets, I think you've been pretty graceful and dignified, considering.

hopkinette Sat 12-Jan-13 19:14:55

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hopkinette Sat 12-Jan-13 19:15:25

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Wow lockets for someone who doesn't get sarcasm, you seem to have suddenly looked up the dictionary definition of it. Well done.

LadyBeagleEyes Sat 12-Jan-13 19:15:54

Fellowship, you really need to give this a rest now.
You are over reacting.

HappyMummyOfOne Sat 12-Jan-13 19:16:15

I haven't seen the show and agree with Expat that by giving them air time is glorifying having a huge number of children and teen pregnancy.

Its hugely irresponsible, what happens if either of them should die,become seriously ill or they divorce? The cost to the state would be enourmous to care for them all. The cost to the state is already enough with all the hospital time for births, nhs treatment for all the children, schooling and CB.

Would anybody realistically like to be one of the many siblings? No privacy, one to one time virtually impossible, more chores than normal children and possibly feeling like you are not good enough as there is already another one on the way.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:16:24

Cute dog. Big bone

What and Lockets didn't I suppose? If you think you'll bully me into leaving it, you can give up, I stand by what I said. Others are too scared to say it but have messaged me to say they are really disgusted in both HQ and the attitudes of others tonight.

hopkinette Sat 12-Jan-13 19:17:20

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NoelHeadbands Sat 12-Jan-13 19:17:39

grin

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:18:02

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hop so now you know how long I've been blogging then. Actually, I've been blogging since well and truly before others got involved and turned it into a nastier hobby to be involved in.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:19:50

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everlong I think its the other way round actually.

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Londonista Sat 12-Jan-13 19:22:31

I want my Mum(snet)!

WelshMaenad Sat 12-Jan-13 19:22:31

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Londonista Sat 12-Jan-13 19:23:20

Actually, I just thought of something. If we all had 16 kids, none of us would have any time for this bullshit.
Just sayin!

can I get more wine over here???

What, people have been messaging you to back off?

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:24:02

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LineRunner Sat 12-Jan-13 19:24:29

Others are too scared to say it but have messaged me to say they are really disgusted in both HQ and the attitudes of others tonight.

Goodness me. How dramatic!

Your other thread has been deleted btw, for breaking talk guidelines. Although the one in Flouncers' Corner is still there.

Coconutty Sat 12-Jan-13 19:25:14

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Cathycomehome Sat 12-Jan-13 19:25:28

I thought the programme was really interesting, although just watching made me tired! ignores fellowship thing

I'm not sure i could be as restrained as lockets has been.

hopkinette Sat 12-Jan-13 19:28:08

grin WelshMaenad

hopkinette Sat 12-Jan-13 19:29:35

What do you blog about, Fellowship?

Tweasels Sat 12-Jan-13 19:30:17

I've just watched the bloody show so I could join in the thread........

Well that was a waste of time.

LineRunner Sat 12-Jan-13 19:31:13

Personally I don't think that the mother deserves misogynistic insults about the size of her vagina and suggestions that she can't remember the names of all her children.

Jokes of course will always be made about these matters, although it is surely up to recipient as to what 'humour quotient' they wish to attribute to comments they might personally feel to be a tad lazy or actually fairly unfunny.

Cathycomehome Sat 12-Jan-13 19:34:16

Interesting show, though ( the telly one rather than this one, I meant grin )

McBalls Sat 12-Jan-13 19:36:07

Exactly, Linerunner.

LineRunner Sat 12-Jan-13 19:37:42

Yes, the older children do a lot of looking after the younger ones.

Some people would say that's sad; others might say that's good life skills learned.

Hemlet Sat 12-Jan-13 19:38:58

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I'm not commenting until MNHQ contact me. Again, love how they ignore me yet delete a thread.

everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 19:42:07

What the jeff do you expect mnhq to say to you?

Lockets hasn't done anything wrong. It's you that's had two posts deleted for being nasty! Fucking hell.

TheSecondComing Sat 12-Jan-13 19:42:16

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

hopkinette Sat 12-Jan-13 19:43:25

MNHQ probably have no idea what to say to you, to be fair.

mumagain38 Sat 12-Jan-13 19:43:33

Yayyy back on course! Firstly i beleive that if u can FULLY support your children WITHOUT financial aid then its up to you to have as many as u want--I dont think they would be a drain to the NHS, my kids have never had a stay in hospital and never had more than chick pox cold sniffels ect - u could be a single adult who is obese and a smoker and will cost more than all these kids put together.
secondly if u dont work or indeed still need to claim benifits then yes there should be a limit to how many you can have ( wow watch the flaming i get now!) as that IS a massive drain but hey thats another thread ;)
thirdly - my friend was from 14 brothers and sisters and she said ultimatley the older siblings had to take responsiblity as mum just couldnt spread herself thin enough. just my opinion!

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 19:46:07

Mnhq will email you to say why they deleted your thread, but it obviously broke talk guidelines.

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 19:48:00

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5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 19:49:37

Snort grin

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 19:50:58

And I liked the way the older children mucked in and helped, it is good life skills (just to get the thread back on track! Being busy and having so many leaves little space for navel gazing glum teenagers. Learning to parent well (which those parents clearly do) is a skill worth passing on.

MrsGeologist Sat 12-Jan-13 19:51:51

Wow, just, wow. Bit of a mountain out of a molehill here. Calm down Fellowship, starting threads to bitch about someone is just not on.

Actually, they haven't emailed.

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 19:55:13

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thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 19:56:14

Oh fellow, you are back; you missed me didn't you?

fellowship... i do hope you aren't singling out bitchbrigade.

why have you answered her and no-one else??

poor bitch sad

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 20:01:58

Frankly I feel picked on... sad

usualsuspect Sat 12-Jan-13 20:02:06

Is there any need for all this bitching?

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 20:02:19

hounded even...... wink

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everlong Sat 12-Jan-13 20:03:54

' is there any need for all this bitching ' you mean from fellowship to lockets?

i'm not surprised. You don't come onto a chat board and expect someone to reply to a comment you post do you?
totally unnecessary IMO.

I'd complain to MN if I were you.

This is awful, can't you all stop now?

I do feel pretty clever actually yes. yes I do.

that's not to you btw fellowship. it's to everyone. just letting the whole world know

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fakebook Sat 12-Jan-13 20:06:23

Yes. That programme was quite interesting. That's what this thread is about right? The family with 16 children? grin

oh come on toughas... we're just being sarcastic.

Apparently its a crime to use sarcasm all of a sudden on MN.

i didn't even see the show! but I DO like buns

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 20:08:51

Would the parents get tax credits for the children?

Wrt the 'drain on the education and nhs' argument, they'd all grow up to hopefully be tax payers too which would balance it all out wouldn't it? Their parents are obviously hard working so the children have good role models.

According to lockets sarcasm is banned, not me.

depends how much they earn I suppose? was the dad in work?

don't remember her saying that?
she just said she didn't realise that you were being sarcastic that's all?

common problem on the internet isn't it? not getting how someone is saying something.

diaimchlo Sat 12-Jan-13 20:16:21

This family lives locally to me and they have a great reputation, the parents work hard for a living in a very successful business. Yes the older siblings help out but is that a really bad things? as said earlier on they are learning good life skillssmile.

As for being a drain on the NHS and education their parents are paying taxes on their earnings so what is the problem????

Now onto the Lockets and fellowships situation. I do not see any bullying going on here from Lockets at all the only guilty of bullying is you Fellowship I think you need to go back and read your posts... You seem to have an issue with anyone who does not agree with you, there is a saying "If you can't be part of the solution then you must be the problem"

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 20:22:04

Yes thisis, they have their own bakery business.

fellowship sometimes when the majority of posters are saying you are in the wrong it can be good to take a step back and reevaluate what you've said. There has been no bullying here, especially not from locket. You have been the one namecalling, calling us bitches and knuckle draggers.

olivo Sat 12-Jan-13 20:26:21

Can someone please tell me where I'll find the prog? Was it channel 4 or one of Sky's?

juule Sat 12-Jan-13 20:27:26

Channel 4 olivo

olivo Sat 12-Jan-13 20:28:31

Lovely, thank you. I will watch it on 4 OD In the bath!

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 20:28:40

Fellow, I am actually clever but not a bully. Now play nicely everyone and let's get back to the matter in hand. I like this family, I like them a lot. The parents seemed to be just so happy to be with their children , counting their blessings and doing as they please. I fail to see how they are a drain on resources, that is the point of being in a society, we all need to support one another. One day these children will grow up and pay taxes to keep us all (whether we have had our own children or not). We should not be thinking in terms of every man for himself, this is not America. Me and Mr BitchBrigade pay an awful lot of tax and have a large number of children. Is that ok then as we pay higher rate? Families like this are extremely rare and it is good for all sorts of people to be raised in all sorts of ways because this means we can all being something a little different to the table as parents and in the workplace/education etc.

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Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 20:36:40

That's a great way of looking at it bitch.

I sat down with a cats bum face prepared to pick holes in it. But i thought they seemed very happy.

She looked so young and freshfaced. And i thought she seemed a lovely mum and he a nice bloke.

Rather them than me though - and obviously a psychologist would have a field day with them knowing they were both adopted.

I do wonder what happens when the babies stop though - she will struggle immensely. I hope she makes the decision to stop before causing health problems etc

thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 20:40:52

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thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 20:43:22

And seriously I thought the Dad was amazing, working and running a business but so nurturing. really nice to see a Father like that on the telly as things can seem a little negative about blokes sometimes.

expatinscotland Sat 12-Jan-13 20:48:47

'She looked so young and freshfaced.'

Because she's only 37 and started having babies when she was 14.

MammaTJ Sat 12-Jan-13 20:49:20

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thebitchbrigade Sat 12-Jan-13 20:51:13

She can't do it Mamma, she would miss me wink

LadyBeagleEyes Sat 12-Jan-13 20:52:59

No one in this day and age needs 16 children, however lovely they are.

TwllBach Sat 12-Jan-13 20:54:32

I really
Enjoyed the programme - when I was little I wanted 13 children. It appears as though they are supporting themselves and they obviously love all their children. I do wonder how they all manage a peaceful nights sleep though

<purposefully ignores the fracas>

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 20:56:34

Yes she had her first at 14, but then didn't have any more until 19/20 by which time they were married and they do as others have said gave their own successful business and they work hard.

Its not everyone's cup of tea but couples can get together at a young age and stay together.

As for tern pregnancies the daughter is 18 I think and working, I had my first at 19 whilst at uni, again not for everyone but having a baby at 18/19 doesn't have to be the disaster that some make it out to be.

PuffPants Sat 12-Jan-13 21:01:54

Didn't see it but would be interested to know how much they rake in in child benefit and tax credits.

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 21:05:24

I think it's lovely that they've been together since they were 13, and are still happy together.

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 21:06:00

It would be easy to work out puff.

5madthings Sat 12-Jan-13 21:11:01

They said they get child benefit but not tax credits. It was £180? A week child benefit,they wont get it for the elder two? One has left home and the other is 18? And working,

Oodsigma Sat 12-Jan-13 21:19:14

Just posted on the other thread but if you look on right move at houses in morecambe there's 10 bed houses at under £200k so if they bought 10 years ago or more they could have paid a lot less

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 21:20:30

It was an ex care home they bought too.

EasilyBored Sat 12-Jan-13 21:27:35

I don't know about the resources etc, I think most of us live much too wasteful lifestyles to judge them. However, I just don't know how you could split your energy and time between 16 kids, give them all what they need, and fall apart. It must be so draining emotionally and physically.

EasilyBored Sat 12-Jan-13 21:28:12

And NOT fall apart.

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 21:32:55

And have the time and energy to make new babies too! grin

wonderstuff Sat 12-Jan-13 21:52:19

I started watching all judgy, but actually it really opened my eyes, it was a great programme. They seemed happy, well cared for, and dh and I both thought how wonderful to have so many siblings - there seemed so much joy in the house. I was struck when she said she didn't want any of them to ever leave home, because a) I wondered if they would all want to leave quite young, but the elder daughter was happy to stay with her baby and they did all seem very content, and b) we only have two and find them so draining that we do think about it not being forever and one day they will be grown and how nice that will be, but they seemed so happy to be raising children.

They weren't expecting the eldest to parent the youngest either - on holiday they could have split some of the younger ones into the caravan with the elder children, but they didn't, they made sure the older ones had a nice time. I would have been shitting myself on that beach though - very difficult to keep an eye on so many at once.

I did think she must never had had a proper job, and in 15 years what is she going to do with herself? I suppose there will be plenty of grandchildren! I wonder how the child benefit cap will affect them, I imagine that he earns over £50K - would be a big blow to lose all that CB.

Good luck to them though - they seemed to be doing a great job, raising lovely kids! A generation ago families this big weren't unusual, I imagine in Ireland and Catholic parts of Europe you still get families this big. Not often telly changes your opinion, and I genuinely see large families differently after watching that.

Catchingmockingbirds Sat 12-Jan-13 22:13:06

If all their children had as many dc as they did there would be 256 grandchildren - that's a lot of birthdays!

BsshBossh Sat 12-Jan-13 22:24:56

I have one child only, through choice, but I felt alot of unexpected warmth towards this family. The parents clearly love their children and have a routine and parenting style that works well for their large family. The children themselves seem lovely, well brought up and well-adjusted (as far as I could see, but agree they should have been interviewed more). It wouldn't be for me as I am too solitary and introverted to have a large family, but watching this I thought they are the perfect sort of parents to bring so many children into the world. Really enjoyed it.

BlackholesAndRevelations Sat 12-Jan-13 23:16:17

I haven't watched this yet but wonderstuff- I'm sure I read that they earn £30k from the business.

I have no issue with families raising as many children as they want- as long as they pay for them, which these parents somehow do.

Mia4 Sat 12-Jan-13 23:19:24

I thought it was a great programme and interesting, did feel sorry for the young one who felt that the kids got a bit pushed over when older.

Interestingly, I watched with one of my best friends (who was adopted at birth) when both parents gave that bit of information she turned to me and said that that was likely why they kept having kids- to replace and fill the hole that having no biological family who 'wanted them' felt. She admitted she had felt the same, hence why she'd wanted, but couldn't afford more than 5, a big family.

pigletmania Sat 12-Jan-13 23:44:58

They seem like a very nice family, but come on its time to tie a knot in it now and appreciate what you have. It's not only selfish on the other kids but Wth every pregnancy it carries a risk to her and makes it more likely she will have complications.

Dryjuice25 Sun 13-Jan-13 01:04:01

16Kids and no stretchmark!!! Wonder woman she is.
But I think its time to stop now. Enough is enough

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 01:07:25

She said that se has no plans to stop. I was watching the programme last year and a couple of te children sad ut was too many and she should stop. Really they should be thinking of the kids they do have, I don't think they get very much individual mummy or daddy time

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 13-Jan-13 01:07:56

I honestly think she doesn't know when to stop.
IMO she will continue to want babies, as each and every one of her children grow up.

thatisall Sun 13-Jan-13 02:12:35

I just want to make a comment about those saying the programme 'glorified' teenage pregnancies?
Shall we hide teenage pregnancy away instead? As a teenage parent I was shunned, reviled and belittled yet I know for a fact I am a enter other than many in their 20s 30s and 40s,
My dd is well rounded and I have worked hard to support her. She's how 10.
My midwife told me that in actual fact she wished that people had their children between the ages of 18 and 25. She felt it was the Kat responsible time to have them as children need a healthy energetic parent, whose body is able to recover from birth much more than they need money and a few extra years of experience.
The reason they were on tv was the Humber if children they had. The fact that one of their children, now an articulate, hard working woman was now a mother doesn't really come into it???

thatisall Sun 13-Jan-13 02:13:18

Bloomin predictive text!?!

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 02:29:36

They would be perfectly entitled to tax credits given his income and being self employed they will just split the money between the two parents to bring it under the threshold. By my basic calculations (ie my own circumstances when I claimed for 4, times by 4) they would be brining in 1000 a month in CB and over 800 a WEEK in tax credits.
Nobody should be taking that sort of money out of the public purse and that's aside of the NHS costs every time she has another newborn, any special needs the children have and their education.

cantspel Sun 13-Jan-13 02:42:25

The program did say they only claim Child benefit so unless someone gives some evidence to say the program was wrong i will accept that.

They did come across as a loving if some what large family. Not ideal as they are using more than their fair share of resources but as it is so unusual in this country to find such a large family i dont think one or 2 families like this are going to make a real difference to the public purse.

There are varies different types family who cost the state more than the average family but we dont tell them they shouldn't have a family.

HopAndSkip Sun 13-Jan-13 02:50:05

mosman, anyone having a baby costs the NHS. What makes one of her babies less important than someone elses baby? They arent claiming tax credits according to the show.

And as for the people saying it's glorifying teenage pregnancy... It shows an 18 year old who is working, in a 2 year relationship, and had an accidental pregnancy. What makes that any worse then a 32 year old who is working and in a 2 year relationship? Shes not a "teenager" in the sense of being under 18 and in education still.

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 03:16:26

I find that very difficult to believe that they aren't claiming 50,000 untaxed income, to be honest the figure's simply do not add up otherwise.
As for one baby being more important than any other - that wasn't what I said at all was it ? I do think she's had her quota of services now, don't you ?

cantspel Sun 13-Jan-13 03:32:31

Well even the daily mail says they dont receive state benefits and with the mails love of benefit bashing it must be true.

What a nice thread for the family to read! The relevant bits full of people saying how lovely a family they are....tbh when I clicked on the thread I wasn't expecting this, I thought there'd be many more environmentalists and lots of contrasting opinions. Am watching it alongside (alternately pausing/watching!) and isn't the dad great, and the mum, but I do not know how on earth they do it. There just seems to be something hidden. How do they not struggle? It can't just be that they're laidback.

Must say they should be proud of all their kids, they all seem v. well brought up.

CheerfulYank Sun 13-Jan-13 04:48:35

Good God, y'all! grin <waves to bitchbrigade>

I only saw the trailer...can't figure out where to watch the show. My impression was that they were doing a very good job.

It does seem like a lot, attention wise. It'd be hard to make them all feel special for who they were individually iyswim.

That being said, I want 5 myself (or maybe 7, just always wanted an odd number for some reason) and I get quite the cat's bums when I say that. I get a lot of "ooh, you don't want that, how could you care for them all", etc. So really who's to say how many are "enough"? I don't intend for them to all be biological though, and we have no NHS for me to strain. smile

EasilyBored Sun 13-Jan-13 08:38:13

There is no quota on services. Or shall we tell people with cancer that if they get it again they wont get treatment as they've already used their quota of services? Ffs.

I don't think it's particularly fair on the kids to have that many siblings, but they are all wanted, loved and taken.care of. That's a lot more than some children get. You only have to take a quick look at the relationship board to see that they are very lucky to have the loving family that they do

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 08:51:27

People with cancer can't help needing treatment - this lady can FFS

melbie Sun 13-Jan-13 09:45:48

I would rather a nice family had 16 children and looked after them well and showed them the value of working hard for a living and the importance of family and love of parents, than a couple had 1 child and brought them up badly in misery and abuse or setting them bad examples. That is much more irresponsible and unfair on the child and society. I know we are overcrowded as a planet and not everyone can do this but it is just one family and if they are all happy and loved then that is a wonderful thing. I did not see the program but the thread is making me long for babies!

Yes they will cost the country money but they sound like they are being brought up in a way which will make it much more likely they will financially (and personally in terms of their ethos) contribute in the future and pay that back. I think just sometimes it is really nice to celebrate love and happiness in a fairly miserable world!

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 10:10:43

The parents did not want to stop at 16, te mum is 37, so could still keep reproducing until the menopause in her 50s. So could have 12 more kids, it's ridiculous sometimesxp you have to say enough is enough. I am sure that having an extraordinary large family depleates the family finances. I remember seeing e programme last year and I your kids are saying its too much and to stop Mabey it's time to. Seems as f te children have got loads of common sense

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 10:13:46

They went on holiday, the dad had been awake for 36 hours and was supervising all those children in the pool, some of which can't swim, not safe really.

FutTheShuckUp Sun 13-Jan-13 10:41:19

Its very interesting how the teenage daughter has now become a parent herself. There seems to be an attitude amongst families with lots of children that having babies is the most important thing that you can do and this extends to their own children who tend to become young parents themselves perpetuating the cycle

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 10:52:47

I'm from a large family and saw first hand how crap it can be, most people I know who are 1 of 8, mainly Irish I'll be honest, have gone on to have 1 or 2 children themselves.

WaynettaSlobsLover Sun 13-Jan-13 11:02:22

Mosman why was it crap for you in particular? I must say I'm also very skeptical about these massive families and whilst they were lovely and hardworking, I couldn't get why the mum would keep risking her health.

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 11:07:51

That's right mossman, if your kids are bemused by it, and are saying its too many children and time to stop Mabey they have a point and they should listen to what their kids have to say, instead of doing as they please with no thought on the impact of their existing family. Yes it's better to be in a large loving family than a small abusive one, but this is two extremes, most people are in the middle

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 11:52:41

I don't think it did me any harm and I do have four children so I'm contradicting myself a bit however I made sure that I had lots of help, cleaners, a morning or two in nursery and was in a position financially to make sure nobody went without.
In my 20's I spent thousands and I mean thousands on new clothes, racked up a lot of debt because I'd never had anything that wasn't a hand me down before. My siblings apart from one did exactly the same. Harsh lesson to learn but we owned nothing and shared everything.

I know one lady who has eight and she is always there for each and every child, she's a bloody angel so I know it can be done but even though her children are in their thirties the lady literally does not sit down. That's not the life I would choose or want for my DC.

Madmum24 Sun 13-Jan-13 12:17:35

Mosman i can relate to the irish large family situation, but this family seemsw very different to me. They buy new clothes for all of the children, they all have their own beds (but choose to sleep together) and the children are all wanted (unlike irish siyuation where contraception was banned and many women got "caught out".

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 12:23:07

That's true Madmum (hopefully not of 24) grin

Madmum24 Sun 13-Jan-13 12:27:20

mosman i only have 5 but after this programme i feel that i want to reeeeeproooooduce. Off in search of a dirt cheap ex care home lol

expatinscotland Sun 13-Jan-13 12:38:00

I find it really hard to believe they are not claiming tax credits and able to feed everyone, provide £250 gifts for the teens, run the house and car(s) and go on holiday on £30K gross.

And she was not 18 when she had a baby, she was bloody 14!

Should teen mums be shamed and belittled? No, but nor should the media give air-time and press-time to people like this, who are a drain on the evironment and the world's resources (I also think CB should end for over 2 children for everyone. The solution to over-population, which is what we have in teh world, is net migration, not having more babies).

Sure, they're still together. How many other 14-year-old parents wind up otherwise?

I didn't watch it because I disagree with people having so many children, no matter how 'lovely'. I think there's something wrong with people who do this, tbh, and as stated don't watch shows like the Duggers, people who have loads of kids, polygs who have tons of kids, etc. There's nothing fuzzy or lovely about it, IMO.

GreenShadow Sun 13-Jan-13 12:41:49

Part of me would love a larger family (have 3 DC) but I felt genuinely guilty even choosing to have that many.

Every child will probably grow up to have its own car - that's 14 extra cars on the road (based on an average family of 2 children) using up valuable resources, 14 additional mobile phones, up to 14 extra houses needed. Sometimes we all have to think of the greater good of the country, not just what we want.

expatinscotland Sun 13-Jan-13 12:44:24

'Sometimes we all have to think of the greater good of the country, not just what we want.'

Exactly.

GreenShadow Sun 13-Jan-13 12:47:17

Thanks Expat. I know it sounds mean, but if we all did as we wished all the time, our standard of living for all would go down.

LadyBeagleEyes Sun 13-Jan-13 12:50:24

Agree with Expat again. There really must be something missing in her life to keep wanting to reproduce like that.

5madthings Sun 13-Jan-13 12:53:27

When we are saying she was 18 we are referring to the daughter who had a baby not the mum. Who yes had her first at 14 but then didnt have another child till 5 yrs later when they were married and he was working etc.

cantspel Sun 13-Jan-13 12:55:42

If we all though of the greater good for the country then
a disabled mother shouldn't have a child.
disabled children should be aborted.
no one should be able to have ivf and the money spent elsewhere in the nhs
old people refused treatment so that the nhs can save money to treat younger people who are more productive in society.
no one should have more than 2 children.

I could go on and on but it all paints a picture of a society i want no part of.
Such large families are rare. Overall it is the number of families with 3, 4 or 5 children who are more a drain due to the fact that there is a damm site more of them.

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 13:00:17

Well of course there's something missing, they were both adopted, they are creating their own biological family that they never had.
Now if the NHS spent as much money on counselling her through that as it has on maternity services she'd probably be a lot happier because 50 babies isn't going to fill that gap.

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 13:03:28

I agree expat, she does not want to stop at 16, but carry on, probably until she is biologically nott able to. She said she is not addicted, yes she is and they should be recieving professional help for teir chid addiction, like any other addict

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 13:05:15

Why has a hcp not flagged this up with them.

Thisisaname Sun 13-Jan-13 13:06:48

I feel like people are forgetting that she has given birth to 16 future tax payers who will pay back all the money they have 'drained' considering they don't probably need prescriptions often since their immune systems are that high and they are clearly a working family.

The world isn't overpopulated, just very greedy and unthoughtful. And wouldn't a childless or one child family selfish as they are not replacing themselves as tax payers to repay the countries debt? No.

Let people choose how many or how little children they have as long as they are happy and healthy!!!

janey68 Sun 13-Jan-13 13:07:55

The thing which doesn't sit comfortably with me is the exposure of the children in the media, which I imagine is done to top up the money he earns. The family have appeared at various times in the tabloids and some of the broadsheets. Most of the children are too young to be making a considered decision about whether they want to be photographer and have the minutiae of their days (and nights!) laid bare. It may come back to bite the parents later if the children react against that. It's one thing for a child to appear on telly or in the papers because of some achievement or story personal to them. But they are appearing simply because their parents had loads of kids. No particular achievement. It's just exposure. I imagine it would also be quite hard for any individual child to opt out of that, given the pressure of the interest being in the family as a unit

soverylucky Sun 13-Jan-13 13:11:29

When you consider how much a birth costs on the nhs (several thousand pounds) the education costs for 16 children, the child benefit and other gp services that this family use you are talking about a huge amount of money.
That doesn't bother me as much though as the fact that you can't spend enough time with your children if you have 16 of them. That is a simple statement of fact.

Whoever said that she needs some form of help in coming to terms with her past was spot on. I am sure they mean well, love their kids and have the best of intentions but I really don't think that this is a situation to be applauded or respected.

Catchingmockingbirds Sun 13-Jan-13 13:13:31

I completely agree cantspel.

The show did say (and on thismorning when they appeared too) that the only benefit they claim is child benefit, but surely based on their income they'd be entitled to it. If so then that's a lot of unclaimed tax credits they could have.

Mosman Sun 13-Jan-13 13:16:11

There was an Asian man in Oldham I think who was on one of these big family programs and the midwife was talking to his wife saying come on love your 45 and have 10 children enough is enough, they had number 11 though.
What can the HCP's do ? And a lot of midwives are "nice" I remember wanting to give out stop smoking posters to one surgery, it's got fag ends in a bottle and they wouldn't put it up as it was too harsh for the delicate little flowers that came to their surgeries with the babies stinking of ciggies.

pigletmania Sun 13-Jan-13 13:16:21

I disagree, they have to think about the existing children they have and the impact of More on their family. She doesnot plan to stop at 16 but carry on, which is an addiction, and trying like someone pointed out, to fill a void. They need help getting to the root of te issue and trying to resolve it. Someone pointed out that she would probably feel like this with 50 children.

expatinscotland Sun 13-Jan-13 15:25:05

'I feel like people are forgetting that she has given birth to 16 future tax payers who will pay back all the money they have 'drained' considering they don't probably need prescriptions often since their immune systems are that high and they are clearly a working family.

The world isn't overpopulated, just very greedy and unthoughtful. And wouldn't a childless or one child family selfish as they are not replacing themselves as tax payers to repay the countries debt? No.'

The world is becoming quite dangerously overpopulated. More migration is needed rather than more babies. The whole, 'Let's have as many as we want because they'll all be taxpayers,' is ridiculous, too. No one has a crystal ball - they could not be taxpayers but stay-at-home parents, move elsewhere, etc.

I think it's irresponsible and irresponsible of the media to give such people media attention and press, be it them or the Duggar or the Sister Wives, Kate+12, Octomum, whoever. A lot of polygamous families have this number or more of 'lovely' children, work and don't take money from the public purse, but people on MN are usually appalled at their lifestyle and having so many children.

There's something wrong with a person who has baby after baby no matter what with no plans to stop just for the sake of it and liking babies.

comingintomyown Sun 13-Jan-13 16:07:18

Agree expat

CheerfulYank Sun 13-Jan-13 18:32:43

The thing with Jon and Kate + 8 (though I disagree with them for many reasons on many levels, the way they exploited those children) is that they intended to have 3 children, not 8.

They wanted one more after their twins, but due to IMO dubious IVF practices they had 6.

CheerfulYank Sun 13-Jan-13 18:34:58

Also my aunt has 6 and makes it seem like not so many. They're all very loved, etc. She has two close together in their twenties, a gap, two close together in their mid to late teens, a gap, and then the "babies" who are now ten and eight. I don't know if the spacing has anything to do with it?

jellybeans Sun 13-Jan-13 18:41:20

I don't judge them but wonder how they give them all attention etc. I have 5DC and find it chaos at times. Also it is a massive expensive when the DC get older if they do paid activities. I pay hundreds a term for swimming lessons and cubs/guides etc. And then there is school trips etc.

thebitchbrigade Sun 13-Jan-13 23:52:59

Cantspel, yes yes absolutely

I say it again, in reality there are very few families this large and those children were all well cared for, loved and being raised very well.

All this talk about drains on society and using their NHS quote pff. You can tell we are under a Tory Government........

Mean just so mean. I worry for people who talk like this because frankly read want cantspel says and think your 'theory' through to it's natural conclusion and it is really disturbing. This sort of thing is knee jerky DM territory. These people do you no harm. At any point you/your children could become terribly ill, terminally ill even. Shall we just chuck you on the scrap heap with no treatment because we have nothing to gain from you. Society is made of all sorts and these people and their children seem to be good hard working sorts.

izzyishappilybusy Mon 14-Jan-13 00:05:44

I love it - my beautiful dcs are "a drain" are they?

There are 4 of them all nurtured and well loved and no we don't get benefit.

How offensive

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 00:14:18

I have 5 izzy and a disabled one, one that might never be able to earn for herself..... I hate all this talk it really upsets me

Mosman Mon 14-Jan-13 00:22:01

4 or 5 is not the same as16 now is it ?

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 00:25:53

no but i only have 4 or 5 to grow up and pay tax and she has 16

How many children they have does not affect us at all, there is no no need for judgement. It is ok to think it would not be for you but all the 'drains on society' thing is horrible. Typical Tory rhetoric about the worthy and unworthy poor etc.

This has no bearing on our lives so I cannot understand why people are so willing to vilify them

izzyishappilybusy Mon 14-Jan-13 00:34:40

Mosman fAmilies with 3/4/5 children are described as a drain a few posts up with lots of agreement

5madthings Mon 14-Jan-13 00:36:33

mosman there is a post by cantspell that refers to families with 4/5 children as a drain and then several.posters agree.

izzyishappilybusy Mon 14-Jan-13 00:37:18

thebitch my friends cerebral palsy - she will never earn but she enriches all our lives.

What would the world be if we were all uniform.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 00:40:47

izzy - I made that point earlier myself

I like this family, I like them a lot. The parents seemed to be just so happy to be with their children , counting their blessings and doing as they please. I fail to see how they are a drain on resources, that is the point of being in a society, we all need to support one another. One day these children will grow up and pay taxes to keep us all (whether we have had our own children or not). We should not be thinking in terms of every man for himself, this is not America. Me and Mr BitchBrigade pay an awful lot of tax and have a large number of children. Is that ok then as we pay higher rate? Families like this are extremely rare and it is good for all sorts of people to be raised in all sorts of ways because this means we can all being something a little different to the table as parents and in the workplace/education etc.

I stand by this. everyone has something to offer but it is not always financial. As soon as we reduce our values to this level we all become poorer people.

Tbf I think cantspel was just pointing out that large families are rare and as there are more 3/4/5 child families on the whole those with lots of dc are no more a drain then all the 3/4 child families.

If that makes any sense as I'm bloody sleep deprived.

It seems that usually her pg are fairly straight forward and she only spends 6 hours in hospital afterwards. I think my pg have probably been more of a drain on the nhs than hers.

The dm and the sun have quoted £30,000 wage but we don't know if that's after tax or even if it's a true figure. They work, own their own home and the dc all looked happy and well cared for. Good on them if that's what they want to do.

cantspel Mon 14-Jan-13 01:41:28

Moomin has it in one.

My point was if you are going to claim this family is a drain on society then you have to also accept that 3/4/5 child families are a bigger drain just because of the sheer number of them will far out weight the number of 16 child families.

I personal view is they came across as a lovely family and in particular Noel the dad seemed to be everything and more you could wish for in a father. It was a very interesting program and didn't glorify teen pregnancy or in anyway encourage large families. In fact i cant see anyone having watched that program who would be encouraged to then go and have 16 kids themselves.

As to how many children a woman should have well as long as you can aford them and they are loved, wanted, and all their material needs met i dont see why a woman shouldn't have as many as she wants be it 2 or 22.

expatinscotland Mon 14-Jan-13 03:30:25

My child has already become that terminally ill/disabled person. That drain on resources. She was disabled before she developed the cancer that killed her and then heaven only knows what it cost to treat her.

We are taxpayers, always were, I'd bet London to a brick our children will get the hell out of here and pay tax to other governments. I'd be completely shocked if they wound up staying here, tbh. There are two surviving. I expect them to fuck off to Australia, Canada, S. Africa, who knows?

There will not be more. DH had a vasectomy 2 years ago because of our personal beliefs. Reproducing kids into the double digits is not responsible.

So I still think having 16 kids is irresponsible, selfish and warped, no matter if it's them or the Duggars or polygs or Octomums or what have you. I don't buy the whole eugenics/taxpayer argument. These are people who will continue to reproduce because there's a screw loose up there.

I don't think there's a thing 'lovely' about having a kid when you're 14, no matter how it worked out, that's a good thing to laud in the media.

And I think CB should be limited to the first 2 children.

And honestly, I can't imagine this family doesn't claim CTC, for all they say to the Daily Fail.

thatisall Mon 14-Jan-13 03:35:43

Expat. I can't even consider your views, I'm reeling from. Reading what you've even through. I'm so sorry to hear about your dd x

janey68 Mon 14-Jan-13 06:53:03

people with 3 or 4 or 5 children don't generally drag them through the media though. The radfords appear in the national newspapers, breakfast telly- as well as the actual 16 children and counting. Most of those children are Far too young to decide whether they want that exposure. Even the ones who seemed happy to talk to the camera may regret this level of exposure in a few years time. And it would be very hard to be the one child who makes a stand against it when the media interest is in the family as a whole.

I suspect the main motivation for the exposure is money, to top up their income because there is no way they could afford the £3k a year on presents, the huge passport bill, even the bowling trip added up to £250 ...

I agree the family are loving and the parents seem to be doing a good Job generally, but I don't for a minute believe that particular aspect of parenting- agreeing on behalf of the whole family to lay their lives bare in the media, is right or fair to the children.

Sue is so addicted to having babies that (although she loves all her children) she is willing to compromise their feelings about this

Well what about obem, the whole world seeing you emerge from your mothers fanjo

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 08:38:47

thebitchbrigade

I like this family, I like them a lot. The parents seemed to be just so happy to be with their children , counting their blessings and doing as they please. I fail to see how they are a drain on resources, that is the point of being in a society, we all need to support one another. One day these children will grow up and pay taxes to keep us all (whether we have had our own children or not).

Unless your salary is over £30,000 a year, you'll never pay enough in taxes to contribute more than you cost in welfare.
And considering the first of their kids is, apparently, already pregnant with her first baby, they don't look like the type to be 'contributors'.

We should not be thinking in terms of every man for himself, this is not America. Me and Mr BitchBrigade pay an awful lot of tax and have a large number of children. Is that ok then as we pay higher rate? Families like this are extremely rare and it is good for all sorts of people to be raised in all sorts of ways because this means we can all being something a little different to the table as parents and in the workplace/education etc.

I seriously doubt many of these kids will end up in the workplace.

I stand by this. everyone has something to offer but it is not always financial. As soon as we reduce our values to this level we all become poorer people.

No, we become poorer people when government takes all our money and spends it on welfare. That's what is happening now.

You want to subsidise their lifestyle, then knock yourself out. I would limit child benefit to the first 2 pregnancies completed to term. But then, I'm not loaded like you are, so I have to think about what I spend my money on.

What? So because you come from a large family it means you won't work? The second child who has just had a baby works, as does her partner.

The parents both worked in the business they bought in the begining. There is no reason to think these children won't grow up and work.

If they are not claiming anything but cb why bring welfare into it

Posted too soon, they may cost alot in schooling but there is no reason to think they are a drain on the nhs . They don't have social housing and I doubt a cap on cb would stop them having children.

janey68 Mon 14-Jan-13 09:11:33

Moomin- I wouldn't want to appear on OBEM either - I don't really understand why some women want their birth on telly. BUT the big difference here is that on OBEM i dont think the families are identified by surname, and the focus is more on the different birth experiences whereas the whole point of this programme and all the accompanying media stuff, not to mention the website, is to publicise the whole family. At the end of the day, shes a woman who got up the duff at age 14, and then followed on by starting to have approx a child per year from age 19. Ok, this particular family were fortunate in that it seems her parents are generally supportive, coming and looking after the kids etc, and it also seems there was a family business which has enabled noel to work, despite being a teenage dad. But really, it's nothing to celebrate is it- teenage pregnancy and popping babies out Frequently. This isn't publicity about any great achievement. Yes, they're a loving family but so what- you could pick many families and say the same thing. I just think those kids are being exposed because of their something which is way beyond their control

It's wasn't a family business though, they bought it. They also said that usually the gp only helped out when she was giving birth.

I can't see what being teenage parents has to do with anything, they worked bought a business to support their family. Why should anyone care how many children they have or how old they were when they started to have them.

Justine202 Mon 14-Jan-13 09:25:10

I loved the programme, I love babies and would happily have lots and lots...except after paying our bills and clothing and feeding and paying for the 4 children we have already even as a 2 income family (with more than 30,000 a year coming in) I honestly don't know how they afford them? I looked at the child benefit and basic child tax credit rates and with 14 kids - the older ones are not applicable to the parents' claims - (assuming they claim those benefits) they would receive something in the region of £350 per week so I expect that helps! But the cost of a 10 bedroom home, just on council tax, gas and electric, repairs, the amount of washing powder, toilet roll and toothpaste they must go through...not to mention car insurance on the van they drive. I don't know how they can afford a £5000 foreign holiday every year!

janey68 Mon 14-Jan-13 09:31:06

Moomin- I missed the bit where it said they bought the business- I thought it just said it was a family business. Would be interesting to know how a pair of teenage parents managed to buy a business, I wonder if they had family help for that? Which is fine, but it's hardly real life for most teenagers who get pregnant. And while as i say I applaud the family for clearly being loving and caring and as financially independent as possible, it doesn't seem any cause of celebration for a 14 year old to be giving birth. 14 is still a child. And all the media exposure does not sit comfortably with me at all- those kids are not getting a choice in it, and may regret it. Ultimately, what's to stop them being a loving family living anonymously? I suspect they have created a situation where they need to expose their children to the media to fund their lives

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 09:39:36

I don't know what the alternative is though. I know someone who had a child at 14 in the 70s and was not allowed to keep it and has never gotten over that. is that a better way to behave? (I actually think it was incredibly cruel)

wordfactory Mon 14-Jan-13 09:54:05

I htought they seemed a nice family, but some of the middel DC, particularly the child who had his birthday party, looked glum. There is no way they are receiving enough attention and one-to-one.

Mum is just caught up in the day to day struggle of keeping the ship afloat (ironing 100 items of clothes each day) surely?

As for raising 16 future tax payers...well it is statistically unlikely that any/many of them will be net contributors rather than net takers...andif the eldest is anyhting to go on...

chocoluvva Mon 14-Jan-13 10:02:01

I'm quite envious of the way the adults both seem to know what they want from life and are very successfully achieving it, having the confidence to take risks and be apparently relaxed and having fun.

I suspect that many more people would have bigger families if they had more/energy/patience/confidence/money. Maybe the lady does have a psychological problem - don't many many other parents too?

There will obviously be disadvantages to being one of a large family, but singletons/middle children of any number more than 2/the only child of one gender with 2 or 3 siblings can feel disadvantaged too. No parent or family is perfect - and it's not for someone else to decide what this couple can or can't cope with. They're both exceptional people.

BlackholesAndRevelations Mon 14-Jan-13 10:09:32

Can't quote as on phone, but what janey said re having to publicise family to fund it. Got to be.

FWIW I don't think all of those children are genuinely happy either.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 10:12:44

OwlLady I know someone too that I went to school with (this was the 80's) and she was shamed into giving her baby up, she too has never got over it. I fail to see how showing a tv programme where the Mother originally had a baby so young is gloryfying it. It is stating the facts that is all. So it would be ok to see her grovelling in the dirt , drug addicted and homeless with numerous children in care, does that fit with the ideas of young single Mums better. Showing someone having been successful after a not so good start is not glorifying it, it is just how it is for some people. I cannot imagine that the Mother would like her own child to become a Mother at 14 but how long should she apologise for something that happened so long ago. My friend had a baby at 17 over 26 years ago and her family still look down on her for it now.

The thing that comes across from some posters on this thread is their absolute meanness towards other people. None of us knows what is around the corner, any of us could end up with a pregnant teenage daughter, it happens in naice homes too you know. If your own daughter wanted to keep that baby however ill advised that was in your mind, would you want to heap shame on her forever? The fucking same old Tory bollocks about every man for himself.

If we get into a place where it is every man for himself then we are fucked, completely fucked. Look at the United States and the absolute shame about their lack of health care for a start. They have huge infant and maternal mortality rates for a developed country, trying for force these bills through congress is very hard because people have the attitude that to help others is to take away from oneself. Even liberal people struggle with the concept of Universal healthcare. I believe the opposite. It is true that I am not on the breadline but I tell you I have been. I have sent my children to school in plimsolls for a few weeks until I could afford shoes, it was either that or no petrol to get them to school. I choose to participate in society as a whole, we all need one another.

cantspel Mon 14-Jan-13 10:47:20

My oldest son is in a special needs school and has been for most of his education. His school years have probably cost the public purse more than educating all of those 16 children.
Is my son not entitled to an education that suits his needs just because he uses more than his fair share? He is never likely to have ahigh flying career and pay back into the pot what he has already taken out but he will still live a useful and for-filling life and be an asset to any community he is in.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 11:05:45

canspel all your posts have struck such a chord with me. The sort of intolerance expressed throughout this thread is the thin end of the wedge. I have a dd who needs very specialist medial stuff for her healthcare, she would have to work for a 100 years to pay it all back. The whole concept of fair share is null here.

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 11:39:11

cantspel

My oldest son is in a special needs school and has been for most of his education. His school years have probably cost the public purse more than educating all of those 16 children.
Is my son not entitled to an education that suits his needs just because he uses more than his fair share? He is never likely to have ahigh flying career and pay back into the pot what he has already taken out but he will still live a useful and for-filling life and be an asset to any community he is in.

No, he is not 'entitled'. He is privileged to receive it. If he squandered it, it would be money badly spent and I would have a problem with it.

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 11:42:58

erm, how can a child squander an education at a special school when the only schools that are left are SLD/PMLD schools and the children there require an education and care so specialised that they cannot receive it in a mainstream environment? confused

are you for real? We are talking about the most vulnerable children within our society, not some free pass to disneyworld

Madmum24 Mon 14-Jan-13 11:43:34

The posters spouting on claiming that a couple of interviews and ONE tv one off documentary is a terrible violation of the childrens privacy, I mean come on, what about celebs with paparazzi following them every minute, are they not entitled to have kids because they haven't given informed consent? The Radfords aren't glory seekers FGS, they are telling their story as it is, probably to set straight many of the misgivings that the public may have about them just like this thread. I'd hardly say the kids are constantly under the spotlight........

I've also been thinking about the whole "individual attention" concept (something I previously thought was inportant) That is exclusively a western concept and a fairly new one too, and in terms of emotional/psychological/behavioural problems these are all on the rise so perhaps this "individual attention (IA)" is creating a generation of "me, me, me" and even counter productive? I spent time living in the middle east where families averaged 6 children, and the IA concept was non existent but I felt kids there were much better behaved, sibling rivalry wasn't an issue and everyone learned from an early age they are part of a family where everyone has their role but no one is better than anyone else IYKWIM?

The kids have a very stable, loving environment with both parents who are clearly very commited to them and to each other. You only have to read the relationships section on here to see that many single children don't have that priviledge.

The Radford children seemed very well balanced IMHO (I am a clinical psychology student), hats off to the pair of them!

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 11:43:34

thebitchbrigade

The thing that comes across from some posters on this thread is their absolute meanness towards other people. None of us knows what is around the corner, any of us could end up with a pregnant teenage daughter, it happens in naice homes too you know. If your own daughter wanted to keep that baby however ill advised that was in your mind, would you want to heap shame on her forever? The fucking same old Tory bollocks about every man for himself.

So your solution is "Everyone help themselves to free stuff from the taxpayer", isn't it? And what happens when the money runs out?

It's nothing to do with 'Tory bollocks', it's about fiscal probity and people treating the welfare state as their personal bank account. The safety net has become a hammock.

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 11:45:33

OwlLady
erm, how can a child squander an education at a special school when the only schools that are left are SLD/PMLD schools and the children there require an education and care so specialised that they cannot receive it in a mainstream environment? confused

What part of the word 'If' did you miss?

are you for real? We are talking about the most vulnerable children within our society, not some free pass to disneyworld

Oh yes, 'vulnerable'. That's the Left's latest "Buzzword", isn't it?

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 11:48:24

children at SLD/PMLD school ARE vulnerable, stop being so ignorant

also under the human rights act 1952, all children in Europe are entitled to a free education

janey68 Mon 14-Jan-13 11:49:08

Thebitchbrigade- how does stating that it's not great for a girl to give birth at 14 equate to wanting her to grovel in the dirt or give the baby up? You are taking what people are saying and running a mile (or three) with it.

I didn't even say I thought the programme was glorifying it. I was
Simply saying that selling the minutiae of your children's lives to the media, fuelled either by a simple desire to have public exposure, or by financial reward (and i suspect there's a bit of both at play here) does not sit comfortably with many of us

They could have had a large family, a dozen or more children and be living anonymously. There must be other very large families who do. The radfords are choosing not to. Or rather mum and dad are choosing not to- the kids don't have that choice

cantspel Mon 14-Jan-13 11:52:19

can someone please remind me to tell my son how privileged he is the next time someone taunts him with the fact he goes to the "retards school"

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 11:59:34

OwlLady
children at SLD/PMLD school ARE vulnerable, stop being so ignorant

No, my point was that the current fad from the left is to label everyone as 'vulnerable' so that when anyone proposes cutting expenditure a Great Wailing And Gnashing Of Teeth occurs over the 'vulnerables'.

also under the human rights act 1952, all children in Europe are entitled to a free education

The HRA doesn't define the scope of that free education. Access to specialist schooling is a privilege and it's good for the children that get that schooling. But never forget that it remains a privilege.

cantspel

can someone please remind me to tell my son how privileged he is the next time someone taunts him with the fact he goes to the "retards school"

A century ago he'd have been stuck in an institution for his entire life. Now he gets the education and support he needs. I don't see what the taunting has to do with it, apart from as a transparent attempt to emotionally blackmail me.

slad Mon 14-Jan-13 12:09:49

hello all,
I have watched the show and was impressed how well they manage to feed, bath and put to sleep everyone. I can't imagine me having that many lol but they seem happy so I guess that's what counts.

On the other hand there was something that one of the son's said that I feel was very sad:-/
He said that when he grows up and leave the house there will be new kid to replace him and he will be forgotten.
And sadly he is probably right they are just too busy with looking after other kids.

I personally would like to be able give my children my time, to know them well and be able to do things with them. But I can't see how you can do it with that many.

cantspel Mon 14-Jan-13 12:10:59

no emotional blackmail but the very fact that you seem to think that special needs children now being able access education is as some sort of privilege is a trifle worrying as a privilage and be withdrawn at any time.

I dont want to live in a society where children needs met is seen as a privilege and i should be grateful he is not going to be dumped in some sort of institution because it is cheaper on the public purse.

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 12:14:06

It isn't cheaper to institutionalise children with severe and complex special needs, it's actually a lot more expensive. Carers save the economy billions

5madthings Mon 14-Jan-13 12:16:20

Specialist schooling for children with sn's is not a privilidge its a basic right. In the UK education has to be tailored to the child and their needs. 'Every child matters' just because the hora doesn't define what type of education should be provided doesn't make it a privilege!!

You make it sound like those with sn's should be grateful they aren't still stuck away in an institute. Thank god we have moved on but we still have a long way to go when it comes to disabilist attitudes as some posters have shown.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 12:22:49

Janey - my comment about glorifying was not aimed at your post, apologies as I did not make that clear. There was an awful lot of mention of hat upthread to which I was alluding.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 12:24:20

And agreed - the notion of sn education being a privilege is dreadful. Wrong and dreadful.

LadyBeagleEyes Mon 14-Jan-13 13:32:28

Your posts are vile and disablist Flatpack, and nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

chocoluvva Mon 14-Jan-13 13:44:45

I can see how people can hold the opinion that having an average number of healthy children is a lovely thing for the parents, and also lucky so to have a very large family could seem greedy.

But greed comes in many forms, flatpack.

And there's more to having a well-functioning, fair society than can be measured. Contribution to the financial kitty is only one way of contributing to society.

WileyRoadRunner Mon 14-Jan-13 13:53:28

Won't get into the financial/social points that have been raised but I felt sorry for the children. There is absolutely no way you can give enough attention to 17 children. It's ridiculous. How often really does she play with each/any of them despite being at home? When she is doing 9 loads of washing, ironing 100 items daily and doing countless nursery runs all whilst tending to the newest baby.

What happens if the family bakery goes under? They said he had to come home to get the children to school, what happens if he has to go and work for somebody else?

I would be very interested to see a documentary in ten/fifteen years time to see how close they all are then/ where they are.

chocoluvva Mon 14-Jan-13 13:59:57

A follow-up documentary would be very interesting.

I used to wonder at how other people could blithely take the risks they do - eg, "if the family bakery goes under", but now I'm much slightly older I quite admire that approach to life. I sometimes wish I'd taken more risks...

flatpackhamster Mon 14-Jan-13 14:33:43

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 15:22:20

Not very keen on the notion of living in a civilised country then flatpack?

The description 'vulnerable' to describe children who are vulnerable is a factual statement, not emotional blackmail

chocoluvva Mon 14-Jan-13 15:35:25

Flatpack, the government isn't "taking all our money and spending it on welfare" - our income tax is lower than most of the scandinavian countries for example.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 16:55:02

How horrible for you flatpack, just to be you. You sound so bitter.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

zingally Mon 14-Jan-13 18:35:28

I watched this and just thought "each to their own". It certainly wouldn't be my choice, but if they are happy and the children are happy, then leave them to it.

I did think they were stupid over the passports though. Leaving them until 3 weeks before the holiday was pretty moronic and cost them a lot of money in the end!

Reminded me of the Duggar family in the UK. They have 19 kids (religious - don't use birth control, leave it up to god - types). Kid 19 was born extremely premature, nearly died a number of times. Mum got pregnant with number 20 but the baby sadly died inside around the 5-month mark if I remember correctly.

thebitchbrigade Mon 14-Jan-13 18:43:18

Lunatic that is a very good point I hadn't thought about it in those terms but yes of courseare right and this was the same for my Grandads family, there were 14 of them, all workers, several were soldiers in WW2.

I am very uncomfy with the idea that being in a big family means you will not be a productive member of society (whatever the fuck that means!)

Trust me I only have five and people always make comments about how do you have time, how they could never do it etc etc. It is hard work but I am in my element and if I weren't such an old bint and have met DH so late I would have had a lot more. I do struggle sometimes too, I am not Mary Poppins.... I take my hat off to her with the ironing, I pay someone to do mine!!! blush

The assumptions people make about this family are breathtaking. One of the problems I feel in modern parents (and take this as you will) is that we are trying to balance it all and have it all. I know that this is a kind of anti feminist and regressive stance but I do feel that women have been shot in the foot a lot of the time around Mothering and feel that 'just' being a Mother is not enough. I am not suggesting we all go back to the 40's/50's but honestly those parents were absolutely devoted to those children and I personally know a lot of children (even only children and two's) that do not have quality time with their parents. Their parents seem to want to rush them through their childhood, get past the hard work stage and cannot wait for the school holidays to end. I am not saying that this is a script for modern parenting but for me, seeing these parents just reveling in their children and loving each stage (even though we can cast aspersions on the psychological reasons for that...) was so refreshing. When so many people struggle with modern parenting they seemed to take it in their stride. I think a lot of Mothers find it hard to see someone so surrendered to parenting (and I do not mean that in a doormat context) - it does spawn a bit of spite in some. That Mother was confident in herself that she was doing the best she could, how nice to see that.

And this thing with children not having enough time etc etc again I don't really buy into it. That poor boy missed his birthday because his Mum was having a baby but one of my children had his birthday delayed too because we were all ill - do you know, he got over it, it was no biggie. We are all raising hugely mollycoddled children with no coping skills (again I know, generalisations) but I do think that their children will be well placed to go out into the world. Remember their 18 year old daughter was working until she had the baby not sat on her bum doing nought! Despite a poor start and a very young pregnancy at just 14, they have not let themselves be defined by that bad planning and run a business and provide for their children. And all this what if the business goes etc etc. Seriously, how many people really live in this place of continual disaster planning. It is sensible to work on the probable and not the possible.

Is there a phrase or something about it takes a village to raise a child? they literally have their own village.

wordfactory Mon 14-Jan-13 18:50:48

It's not really to do with the number of them. The fact is that the vast majority of people are net takers not contributors. So it is highly unlikely that any/many of these DC will be net contributors.

Not a judgement, just a fact in repsonse to those saying these parents were breeding the next generation of tax payers.

It is possible of course that this family buck the trend. Though the stats also show that the net contributors are likely to be highly educated and the highly educated statistically have highly educated Mothers. Not impossible though. Just unlikely.

pigletmania Mon 14-Jan-13 18:51:35

Flat pack specialist education s a rght not a privilege. Those accessing speicalist education have SPECIAL NEEDS And need acsoecalist environment and teaching which a mainstream school cannot provide. It's not my fault my dd has sn and needs that type if education

OwlLady Mon 14-Jan-13 18:54:37

I don't think you can prove a fact based on something that hasn't actually happened and even it has it would be based on a statistical 'fact' rather than on actual fact

diaimchlo Mon 14-Jan-13 19:05:57

For those of you that are commenting that this family is a drain on government resources please bear in mind that they are not a large family popping little ones out for the sake of getting more benefits, if this was the case I would fully empathise with your views.

So please stop being so judgemental, as has been said before the children appear to be in a good stable home with parents that have wanted each and every one of them and I think that they will be able to contribute to society in a good positive way.

wordfactory Mon 14-Jan-13 19:11:10

owl I agree.

I'm simply pointing out the liklihood of what will happen in answer to those implying the family are doing the world a favour by producing so many potential tax payers.

To be honest, I really can't see how any child with so little parental attention can reach their full potential. Kids need time, no?

chocoluvva Mon 14-Jan-13 19:56:35

It's awful to think that you're not contributing if you don't work - there are different ways of contributing.

The advent of mothers working was fairly recent. I bet there's many an unhappy, neglected child whose parents both have well-paid jobs.

wordfactory Mon 14-Jan-13 20:00:19

There are many ways to contribute - it was not I that brought up the issue of tax! I am simply answering that point. And I cannot see that saying other DC are neglected as being any defence. Are we in a race to the bottom?

chocoluvva Mon 14-Jan-13 20:08:24

Apologies wordfactory, that was directed at flatpack.

My point was that in "fiscal" terms the high-earning parents are contributing to society, but in SOME instances which will ususally go unmeasured and un-recorded they may also cause problems or offer nothing else to society (eg, if they're anti-social)

To put it more positively, a non-working parent who is a good role model, enriches the lives of other people by their behaviour and personality and brings up their children to be responsible is surely making a valuable contribution to society.

flatpackhamster Wed 16-Jan-13 08:48:07

chocoluvva

My point was that in "fiscal" terms the high-earning parents are contributing to society, but in SOME instances which will ususally go unmeasured and un-recorded they may also cause problems or offer nothing else to society (eg, if they're anti-social)

To put it more positively, a non-working parent who is a good role model, enriches the lives of other people by their behaviour and personality and brings up their children to be responsible is surely making a valuable contribution to society.

And how exactly do we quantify that? Are there values of loveliness and superness that we can use?

Perhaps we should have a "Mary Poppins Scale" where someone's loveliness can be measured?

soverylucky Wed 16-Jan-13 09:07:29

My kids come home from school at 4pm. They go to bed at 7.30. They are primary school age. I suspect that this is very similar to many on mn. In the time that they get in from school I have to do their reading books with them, help with any homework that needs doing, cook the tea, bath them and put them to bed. I also have to take them to after school activities such as brownies, swimming etc. I do not see how I could do this with 8,9 10 children etc. Not well anyway. I would have to rely on the older children helping the younger ones and there is just no way you can give that many children the same time that you can give 2. I also have housework to do as these parents must because they are at work in the day.

They DO cost the taxpayer money but as I said earlier it is the time issue that bothers me. I lived in a household that was very big - much bigger than what other posters are talking about on here. I was loved, wanted, my parents worked but as we were all close in age like the family in this programme it was impossible for my parents to give anything like the time to each of us that I give my two children. My friends thought it was brilliant when they came to stay - like the Waltons and we were something of a local talking point - "the family with all the kids" but living in it was not great really. I know that some people have a different experince to me when they come from a large family but 16 is just selfish in the extreme. I would not care if they were billionaires - it is all about time.

chocoluvva Wed 16-Jan-13 09:34:12

"How exactly do we quantify that?"

Why waste money on measuring?

Unmeasurable does not equal having no worth.

Mosman Wed 16-Jan-13 09:58:54

You can buy time, I saved so I could spend time off work with each baby. I worked from home in the evenings to spend faux with the toddlers and I get up at 5am to do chores so my weekends are free when I work full time.

Softlysoftly Wed 16-Jan-13 11:44:25

Was I watching a different programme confused.

Yes they generally seemed well cared for but we are making them sound like saints.

Consider the responses you would give to the following AIBU

I can't get my 4 little ones to sleep so I've stuck them all in an attic room and removed the handle to let them scream/beat each order/ destroy things in peace. That's Ok Yes?

My DD (3/4yrs) spends all day with her dummy or a bottle of juice in her mouth but I'm too busy to sort it out. AIBU?

I have to walk 4 DCs at once, I do have reins but forget to hold them and they have run along the roads few times, no ones perfect right?

Granted they did a far better job than I could but there is no way that there weren't cracks showing caused by the strain of too many kids for the time they have to give.

Im 17 and got my 13 year old gf pregnant WIU

Softlysoftly Wed 16-Jan-13 11:46:36

Last two paragraphs are oddly out of order!

flatpackhamster Wed 16-Jan-13 21:44:28

chocoluvva

Why waste money on measuring?

Unmeasurable does not equal having no worth.

I would have liked to continue this conversation. However, my previous, detailed post has been deleted. The reason for its deletion was that it offended the pompous morality of a self-appointed left-wing clique who consider themselves the arbiters of all that is decent. This might be tolerable if they weren't both pig-ignorant and quite, quite thick.

Obviously I recognise that their primary motive is to stifle all dissent but I really cannot be bothered to fight them today.

I advise you to read this quickly, because no doubt it will be deleted in jig time by The Thought Police. It's OK to accuse people of ThoughtCrime here, but not OK to tell people they're imbeciles.

AndrewJ Tue 05-Mar-13 23:56:25

16 Kids and Counting:

On watching this program, I was appalled at this pair of families. Their morals, standards, values and respect to their community as a whole are sorely lacking. Not to mention the utter disrespect for the over-crowded planet which we are living in.
It is absolutely and perfectly clear that having children is simply a game to these families - maybe not each partner involved, but definitely one of the two. It is so wrong, so deeply WRONG to bring more children into this world than is necessary for one to fullfil their own natural instinct of having a child.
These people are playing a game, and we are paying the price of it many-fold.
Firstly, these selfish jokers are reducing the NHS care available to other families over several lifetimes - by this I mean LIFETIME CARE by the NHS. This includes taking away money which could be otherwise used for IVF, for couples who can't pop a kid out on a Sunday afternoon. Secondly, they are reducing places in schools for other smaller families. These people are equating to over five average families in one. Thirdly, they are sucking away several families-worth of CHB and some are taking up huge amounts of government provided housing. On a final point, it's highly unlikely that they will have the strength, money, or ability to help their children into further education, or leave any inheritance of worth, and setting a bad example of to their children of a something-for-nothing lifestyle.

What stupid, deluded people they are. I wish them them the worst. I leave you with a quote from one of the families:

(The Father reacts to one of his children being bullied for neither of his parents working):

"They are very resilient because I've brainwashed them (his children) into believing that the other kids are jealous of our family."

Brainwashed. I don't need to say any more...

I think you missed where the family with 16 children have their own business. hmm

AndrewJ Fri 08-Mar-13 00:38:02

I did. He's a baker right? Well he'll have step-up his baking hours, expand his business radically and employ more people, or turn into Jesus to feed all the 5000 people he and his wife want to put on this planet.

AndrewJ Fri 08-Mar-13 00:38:47

I did. He's a baker right? Well he'll have step-up his baking hours, expand his business radically and employ more people, or turn into Jesus to feed all the 5000 people he and his wife want to put on this planet.

He seems to be providing enough for them just now.

juule Wed 13-Mar-13 12:43:50

"It is so wrong, so deeply WRONG to bring more children into this world than is necessary for one to fullfil their own natural instinct of having a child. "

How many children would you consider to be sufficient to fulfil natural instincts for having a child?
While 1 might be enough for some parents, it would appear not to be for others.

BlackMaryJanes Thu 14-Mar-13 10:48:37

If these mothers love tiny babies so much, why don't they breastfeed? Oh yeah, that would get in the way of their breeding prerogative.

There. I said it.

lougle Thu 14-Mar-13 11:31:15

Flatpackhamster you are entirely wrong that:

" Access to specialist schooling is a privilege and it's good for the children that get that schooling. But never forget that it remains a privilege."

The SEN Code of Practice says:

"Parents may express a preference for the maintained school ( but not a PRU or hospital special school) they wish their child to attend, or make representations for a placement in any other school. LEAs must comply with a parental preference unless the school is unsuitable to the child’s age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs, or the placement would be incompatible with the efficient education of the other children with whom the child would be educated, or with the efficient use of resources. LEAs must consider parental
representations and arrange any meeting(s) with LEA advisers or officers the
parents seek, before issuing the final statement.
See Schedule 27, Education Act 1996

AndrewJ Tue 19-Mar-13 21:39:14

One - that should fulfil the natural instincts of the parents to have a child, as they have had a child, no?. I think any couple who go beyond 2 are just selfish and a quite ignorant of the pressure they are putting on the planet. Wake up and smell the coffee (that will run out soon). If you think I'm being dramatic, you will think back to this message in about 10 years time and reconsider it, believe me.

CarnivorousPanda Tue 19-Mar-13 22:13:18

AndrewJ Completely agree with you.

I can't understand why programmes like this are shown. Publicising irresponsible, selfish behaviour.

juule Tue 19-Mar-13 22:22:37

And for those who the natural instinct for a child doesn't go away once they've had one child, what would you recommend for them Andrewj?

WafflyVersatile Tue 19-Mar-13 22:41:17

Oh there are so few families of this size in the UK and I doubt anyone is going to suddenly get the idea to have 15 kids cos some wifey on the telly did.

Their effect on overpopulation, which isn't the problem people make it out to be anyway, is imperceptible.

And it's hardly as if the reason everyone who doesn't have 15 kids doesn't is because they are curbing their selfish desire and so are better people. Most people would not want anything like that many.

AndrewJ Tue 19-Mar-13 23:46:32

David Attenborough has described humans as a "plague on Earth" that need to slow down breeding to stop the world's population being reduced by more brutal means.

Speaking to the Radio Times, the beloved naturalist said the impact of the rapidly increasing population "will come home to roost over the next 50 years or so."

Finding food for the human 'hordes' is as just big a threat to survival as global warming, he said.

“It’s not just climate change; it’s sheer space, places to grow food for this enormous horde," he told the magazine.

“Either we limit our population growth or the natural world will do it for us. The natural world is doing it for us right now.

I don't speak for David, but I think I have a very good idea of what he is trying to say:

Firstly: It is that overpopulation by this planet from human animals will lead to nature culling the unsustainable increase in human population through one or two certain ways: Nature will create a new, and as then, incurable disease new to man that will kill billions of people in a very fast, acute way, well before we even get even a small idea of the workings of the virus or bacteria that is our enemy.

Secondly: Day by day, we are taking up incredibly valuable space for a whole delicate ecosystem of wildlife, the world has been carefully balanced, but humans are tipping this great relationship into disaster. If ridiculous numbers of people are over-breeding, then it will tip this balance on earth, as 1 species alone cannot sustain the almost infinite natural interactions that go on within this great earth.

Think about it and your children's future, how ever many you have, and think hard, as Sir David Attenborough said his watch is counting down 50 years. Starting now.

I would set my watch to 10 years personally. I truly fear for my daughters future on this planet.

I hope this opens peoples eyes to unnecessary big families. If you love the children you already have, then don't have any more.

You will be doing so much more for their future by not overcrowding the planet.

KobayashiMaru Wed 20-Mar-13 01:15:21

Oh please. How will dropping below replacement levels in the developed world, leading to unsustainably aging populations, help with overcrowding and lack of resources in the developing world?
In ten years things will be no different for your western pampered only child.

AndrewJ has it occoured to you that advancement in medicine, which have dramatically reduced infant mortality and extended human life, may have had an effect on the population increase? Or that what David Attenborough is referring to is actually not as much of a problem in the developed western world?

Afaik the average family in the UK has 1.8 children. Having an opinion on whether its morally right to have 16 children is fine but your last post is scaremongering crap.

butterflybiddy Fri 23-May-14 11:40:47

David Attenborough is referring to us heavy consumers in the western world. Google 'carbon footprint' and see how many planets your own family need to sustain your current rate of consumption. We don't have infinate resources and we are poisoning our amazing planet. If you value generations to come, we should change our way of thinking. We are blessed with two children. We have replaced ourselves and now have the job of raising two more human beings (who themselves will likely go on to reproduce) in the most responsible, low impact way we can. Think how many humans those two parents are responsible in a couple of generations once their offspring reproduce! How many kids need fostering if you crave a housefull? They all seem like lovely warm people whose skills could be put to so much better use.

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