Note: Please bear in mind that whilst this topic does canvass opinions, it is not a fight club. You may disagree with other posters but we do ask you please to stick to our Talk Guidelines and to be civil. We don't allow personal attacks or troll-hunting. Do please report any. Thanks, MNHQ.

to think MN shouldn't support boots co-advertising newborn bottle sets and "follow on" milk

(902 Posts)
ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:30:00

when there's a national campaign on to promote BF?

Presumably this advert passes the letter of the law regarding the non-advertising/non-special offers on formula for new born's but it defies the spirit in every way possible.

AIBU to expect a little more social responsibility from MN?

flatpackhamster Thu 10-Jan-13 12:31:38

What's "socially irresponsible" about bottle feeding?

Fancydrawers Thu 10-Jan-13 12:31:52

Oh get a grip. Some women formula feed. Deal with it and perhaps worry a bit more about what's going on in your own life.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:33:28

social responsibility what so what you mean is formula is not a choice and MN shouldn't be supporting choice.

it is not advertising formula it is advertising bottles and follow on milk which isn't in the advertising ban yabu and ignorant,

Longdistance Thu 10-Jan-13 12:33:34

I'll hand you my very first biscuit

LaCiccolina Thu 10-Jan-13 12:34:14

MN does. It promotes both extensively. Maybe pay more attention?

YABU

MummytoMog Thu 10-Jan-13 12:35:07

YABU.

Follow on milk is awesome stuff - when I had to go back to work and couldnt' BF any more both my kids found it incredibly soothing and I found it very reassuring that they were still getting lots of calcium. Neither of the little buggers will drink cows milk.

LegoAcupuncture Thu 10-Jan-13 12:35:23

So you want MN to decline membership to those who bottle feed as well?

Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:37:06

YABU. Many women can't breastfeed for whatever reason and should have easy access to other options available.

Not everyone can physically do it, you know.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:37:48

it doesnt say formula has to go int he bottles some women express milk

AnyaKnowIt Thu 10-Jan-13 12:38:48

Bloody hell, don't go near the bottle and breastfeed topic then hmm

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:39:06

fair enough...AIBU to expect social responsibility from MN. Won't do it again....

fairylightsandtinsel Thu 10-Jan-13 12:39:07

Oh this is going to go well hmm. Have a biscuit and a grip.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:39:11

YABU

If your going to be passionate about something let it be for something not against something. In this case be for choice not for censorship.

Why do you care how other women choose to feed their babies and why does mumsnet need to show preference to a side?

CheCazzo Thu 10-Jan-13 12:39:48

Horribly presumptuous of you to infer that those who cannot or CHOOSE not to bf are 'socially irresponsible'. Actually - how fucking dare you?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:40:21

mrsjay there are lots of choices....not all of them are social responsible.

BigShinyBaubles Thu 10-Jan-13 12:40:32

YABU. I bottle fed all my 3 ds.. was I being socially unresponsible?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:40:41

che I didn't...but you apparently did.....

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:41:10

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sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:41:11

Honest question OP, why do you care so much how others choose to feed their babies? What does it matter to you confused

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:41:32

big likewise. I haven't said choosing to FF is irresponsible. In many cases it saves your babies life.

ADVERTISING FF is socially irresponsible.

Fancydrawers Thu 10-Jan-13 12:41:36

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ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:41:57

I dont care how you feed your baby, I care that companies advertise about how you should feed your baby

AnyaKnowIt Thu 10-Jan-13 12:42:02

ADVERTISING FF is socially irresponsible.

How?

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 12:42:11

What CheCazzo said

Ridiculous

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 12:42:28

Oh ffs I have no tits should I be locked on prison?
My baby had a cleft palate so couldn't have bf anyway so do I not have the right to peruse the options for ff?
Get off your high horse op.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:42:56

but it isn't showing formula it is showing bottles is their a law against bottles then should baby bottles be banned and put under the counter maybe beside the poison cabinet in the chemist under lock and key so nobody is offended by a baby bottle ,

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:43:06

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Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:43:31

So....how are people supposed to be made aware of FF if you don't think they should advertise, Icbineg?

CheCazzo Thu 10-Jan-13 12:44:20

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weeper Thu 10-Jan-13 12:44:31

I expressed milk for the first nine weeks of my daughter's life while trying to establish bf. Don't know what I'd have expressed into or fed her from if bottles weren't available!

Not everyone can BF. I gave up in the end because it just wasn't working and it was so upsetting and spoiling my enjoyment of the first stage of my daughter's life. I still feel massively sad and guilty about it, almost every day, and she's nearly five months old now.

So give yourself a massive pat on the back for being able to do it and thank your lucky stars that you don't always feel like you're giving your child the second best option. I was massively pro-BF, I just couldn't get it to work, so I think your argument is a bit over-simplified.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 12:44:53

Why is advertising FF socially irresponsible?

Do you honestly think that people come on MN, see an advert for follow on milk and then decide that they are not going to breast feed/quite breastfeeding.

MN caters for different parents with different views and choices. I keep getting the MN homeswap advert. Should I get my knickers in a twist because I dont want to homeswap or because no-one would come here

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:00

Yes mrsjay, baby bottles should be locked in metal cabinets...away from public view just like cigarettes are wink

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:01

How is advertising FF irresponsible? Because you are trying to persuade someone to make a choice that is less healthy. If it isn't a choice you do it anyway...so why advertise?

People who need to use FF will and do and of course should.

People who are making a free choice may be influenced by advertising to make a choice that is less healthy for their child.

Hence the advertising is irresponsible.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:04

So are you saying that women are so stupid they are swayed into FF due to advertising OP?

You don't hold other women in particularly high regard in that case.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:08

but it is follow on milk it isn't formula it is a drink for children who are or have been weaned it isn't promoting anything it shouldn't.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:32

If people don't see adverts and make decisions based on them then WTAF would companies spend money on them?

MrsMcEnroe Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:41

How the Jeff is choosing to formula feed socially acceptable, but advertising it socially unacceptable??

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:51

Maybe it should just go underground alongside illicit drugs. Sold on street corners by dealers who are lacking morals as they were ff.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:58

Mums net advertises McDonalds big time something actually worth getting your knickers in a twist about given they shite they sell,their selling strategies and the masseeeeeve impact they have on children's health globally.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:46:22

Why would the BF rate in countries that ban all FF advertising by 99% as opposed to our what 50%?

biscuit

Get over it.

Fancydrawers Thu 10-Jan-13 12:46:33

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ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:47:33

fancy do you have anything at all to contribute other than personal attacks?

Anything at all?

Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:47:57

I don't think they're trying to persuade anyone to FF, I think they're promoting it to help those who choose not to or are unable to BF. Why is that wrong? They don't say 'This is the better way to feed your child!!', they just make women aware that the other option is there and shouldn't be something to be ashamed of.

It is not irresponsible.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:47:59

so a new mum or mum to be sees bottles on offer in boots and thinks Oh bargain I will now make my whole feeding choice of my baby o n a special offer in a high street chemist formula all the way for me hmm, itv show me adverts for fast places doesn't mean I think yep big mac every night for dinner it is then

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:01

Op I see you managed to ignore my post. Can I ask you what women in my position should do?

MrsMcEnroe Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:04

I didn't base my decision to formula feed on an advert, FGS!!!! And I think you are deluded if you honestly think that adverts for formula sway new mothers away from breast feeding. I had never noticed a formula advert in my life; I just knew that I didn't want to breastfed. So shoot me.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:21

fast food places*

Fancydrawers Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:36

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MrsMcEnroe Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:53

Yes basically I mean what Hemlet said, only s/he said it much more eloquently and charmingly than I did!

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:49:26

OP

Sometimes advertiser spend money on advert for an already decided market to sell their product rather than a competitor don't you know.

I couldn't breast feed I don't unfortunately have the parts any more, I like to have choice even if it's through advertising.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:50:00

hemlet Then why ban newborn milk offers/advertising? If people think it's cheap they are more like to FF. Any amount of data shows that.

It makes no sense to have a national campaign to promote BF rates while simultaneously allowing formula companies to promote FF.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 12:50:14

The adverts are to encourage people to pick their brand of formula if they so wish,not to stop them breastfeeding.

I havent met anyone who has said "I decided not to breastfeed because of the cute toddlers on the cow and gate advert"

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:50:42

fancy yes I do.

Do you?

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:51:13

OP

I really hope you don't put your kids in a car. Do you? Because that vehicle is probably a million more time detrimental to your children that FF.

And don't say a car is a necessity because it's not. However, for some women FF is a necessity. Are you opposed to ads on Kids car seats?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:51:38

sirzy well they do exist even if you don't know them personally. The NHS know that because they collect data. Hence the restrictions on advertising.

Fancydrawers Thu 10-Jan-13 12:52:01

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Trousers99 Thu 10-Jan-13 12:52:18

OP - I agree entirely with you

Won't enter into the debate though other than to offer my support/agreement

These boards make me shudder at times

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:52:25

And many of us want formula,want formula advertising and have children who have benefited massively from it.It's a food which is massively healthier than many,many foods advertised.

Actually I worry waaaay more about the additives,fat,salt,sugar in most foods advertised,screen time,the sedentary lifestyle kids lead,the lack of books many kids have access to etc,etc.

Lets berate the advertising of screen toys,games,most convenience food and anything that keeps kids sedentary and not reading in their spare time.Surely MN should have more social responsibility?

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 12:52:30

OP, that's daft, a special offer is more expensive than breastfeeding, which is, y'know, free...

I couldn't breastfeed. And I will choose to FF any future children, because it was sooo much easier.

And FF children grow up just as strong as BF children. I'm living proof of that.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:53:04

sock lots of things are irresponsible in the advertising world...are you saying that until the big ones are cleared up we can't discuss the smaller ones?

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 12:53:25

hese boards make me shudder at times

why shudder ?

ohdoone Thu 10-Jan-13 12:53:31

Militant attitudes such as the OP's only serve to put women off breast feeding IMO. I breast fed my first for a year, and on currently combination feeding the second. I love both ways. Socially irresponsible!!! Mind you don't fall off that horse of yours!

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 12:53:50

Of course they do! The country is full of people who ff because of an advert - your comments are getting dafter and dafter!!

I know, let's lock formula behind doors like they do with cigarettes. Make sure everyone knows that it's not acceptable to feed your child formula even if that is the only/best thing for them.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:54:29

OP

So you put your kids in a car then? You didn't answer?

nokidshere Thu 10-Jan-13 12:54:30

Of course you are being unreasonable.

You are assuming that women are too stupid to make up their own minds.

None of my 5 sisters BF and I can assure you not one of their reasons was because of advertising bottles or formula.

katzen Thu 10-Jan-13 12:54:36

<hollow laugh> at OP

FF is the unhealthy choice? eh?

No, actually you are right I've just realised I'm pureeing a big mac and putting it in a bottle.

Yawn!

weeper Thu 10-Jan-13 12:54:38

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Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 12:55:14

Exactly polka

Woolfey Thu 10-Jan-13 12:55:18

Oh the old debate again...sigh
What's wrong with giving women choice?
And what about those of us who could not BF because their bodies wouldn't allow it?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 12:55:25

grumpy it may be daft but it really happens. People are more likely to FF if they are exposed to adverts and special offers than if they are not.

Lots of people see the adverts and BF anyway. Lots of people have no choice in the matter or FF for reasons that are unaffected by advertising. But some fraction of pregnant women are swayed by the adverts (and even admit it when asked by HCPs).

Weird but true.

Not every mother wants to breastfeed. Not every mother wants to have a natural birth. Not every mother wants to co-sleep with their child. Get over it OP.

wannabedreams Thu 10-Jan-13 12:56:05

Really???
Can you not advertise pizza, chocolate, biscuits, alcohol, CARS????
biscuit

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 12:56:29

OP

Can you at least admit that militant opinions on FF like your OP could cause mothers who physically can't to feel bad?

CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 10-Jan-13 12:56:44

YABU because you seem to think that, just because something is advertised on MN, women are so easily led that they can't make a decision for themselves.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 12:57:14

I am sure you can provide a link to the evidence to back up this claim.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 10-Jan-13 12:57:25

I didn't base my decision to switch to formula on adverts. I based it on hating breastfeeding ( no pb with others doing it, just loathed doing it myself). I can't believe that anyone would choose to ff based on adverts, and that ff companies should be allowed to advertise responsibly.

fairylightsandtinsel Thu 10-Jan-13 12:57:36

Op you seem to be suggesting that there is something wrong with FF. It is food for babies, it isn't bad for them, just maybe not as perfect as the naturally available alternative (which isn't always available). Why would it be irresponsible to inform consumers that a product exists in various brands which will allow them to give nutrients to their newborn when for whatever reason they cannot or do not wish to BF or exclusively BF.

Whatnameforme Thu 10-Jan-13 12:57:56

I agree with ICB, I was going to bf my children but then tescos had a special offer on SMA. £1.00 off, I thought it would be cheaper than free breast milk so I went with that!
With my second child the baby in the cow and gate advert was so cute I had to ff!
ICB you sound a bit weak if you are unable to see an advert and yet still make an educated decision.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 12:58:08

sock op doesn't address any questions which don't support her theory sorry.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 12:58:21

Advertising newborn formula is illegal. Advertising newborn bottles alongside follow-on formula is cutting that line very fine IMO.

There is a reason it is illegal to advertise newborn formula, because as a general rule longterm health outcomes are better for BF babies than babies who have only been FF.

It is obviously up to individuals what to do, but IMO MN shouldn't be sailing so close to the law.

littleladyindoors Thu 10-Jan-13 12:59:45

I am pregnant with my first baby, I am obviously weighing up the advantages and disadvantages of feeding, and of course I want to try to BF and give that a go, because I feel that is the best for my baby.
I am however, a bit scared and unsure because I havent done this before and I dont know what it will be like. The fact that Boots have an offer on doesnt make me think-dya know what? Ill just FF.
Its people like you who make us new mums feel like if we cannot BF or choose not to then we are the scum of the earth and we should just ring SS now and get it over with.
BTW I have bought bottles, because they came with my breast pump. And actually, I appreciate the adverts because this baby thing can be pretty expensive and its good to know what is out there.
As I can figure, most women who have babies are ADULTS and therefore really should be able to make a decision based on knowledge not on Boots latest offer

katzen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:00:18

Yawn, so everyone at university has been exclusively breast fed then.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:00:27

I am sorry that some people are insecure/unhappy about the feeding method they chose/were forced into by circumstance. That is indeed a massive issue with the BF campaign.

But it is also important that pregnant women are given every opportunity to opt for BF (if they are able).

Actually removing FF adverts would be a kinder way of moving people (who have the choice) towards BF than the current guilt tripping done in antenatal classes.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:01:32

There is also a staggering degree of naivety on this thread about the effects of advertising on our decisions. It is not so simple as 'see Cow&Gate advert, decide to switch to formula'.

And actually, in Britain or any other Western country with a clean water supply it isn't a huge issue.
What is a huge issue is the massive revenues from Western markets being ploughed into the advertising and distribution of formula in the developing world where it kills babies because bottles are made up with filthy, disease-carrying water.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 13:01:36

How do you know that people who want to express milk wont be buying the bottle sets?

katzen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:01:41

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DolomitesDonkey Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:08

YAB quite crackers to expect MN not to support feeding children.

AnyaKnowIt Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:32

So you really think that women are that stupid, they would rather spend £££ on formula then bf because they have seen an ad?

Do you buy EVERYTHING you see an ad for then?

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:41

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sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:45

Op

Who on here has said they were unhappy with their choice of feeding?

I think the ONLY person upset with feeding ways is you about other people.

I'll ask again,

1) Do you put your kids a car?
2) Why do you care so much how others feed their children?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:48

katzen the data is very convincing that BF results in healthier babies on average than FF.

I am sure that you are also smart enough to realise the difference isn't large enough to be detectable to individuals.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 13:03:02

I am sorry that some people are insecure/unhappy about the feeding method they chose/were forced into by circumstance. That is indeed a massive issue with the BF campaign.

Oh that old chestnut you now feel sorry for FF babies and mothers you think they have been coerced into formula feeding and they should be sympathised as the system has failed them some what, hmm

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:03:14

Worra grin well spotted

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:03:18

I have yet to meet a woman who FF because of an advert. They are advertising a choice. Which they are well within their rights to do.

We are not so weak-minded that we are swayed by advertising. Knowing what is best for your baby is a personal thing. All babies are different, as are all mothers.

Follow-on milk is for weaning, so not relevant.

Links to evidence? Prove to me women were swayed by advertising.

OP I haven't seen it as I've got an adblocker, but it sounds like it comes very close to breaking the Code on formula advertising and so YANBU.

Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:03:47

It's not banned, I've had quite a few leaflets advertising new born formula etc. I can understand that you feel strongly about it, but I have to disagree that the formula companies are advertising formula as a better alternative to breastmilk. It simply isn't the case. And as grumpy said, breastfeeding is free so no matter how cheap they advertise that's unlikely to be a factor.

I agree breast is best, I'm pregnant with my first, I have no idea if I'll be able to feed my baby naturally or not. But if there were a problem I would appreciate knowing how to progress the best way for my child, which is why it's useful for these companies to advertise their wares.

You seem stuck on the assumption that because they're advertising formula they're denouncing breastfeeding in the process. It's not a typical product where they say 'this is better than anything else', apart from competing against other formulas.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 13:04:20

Op I started bf, after 6 weeks I switched to ff because bf was shit and made me and all 3 of my dc miserable.

I was so worn out and rarely left the house(thanks to my bf purgatory) so wouldn't have noticed a ff advert if it slapped me round the face.As it was my first f purchase was a midnight mercy dash made by Dp upon which no influence was made by any f adverts ie if it was clean, a decent food for my babies,went in a bottle I didn't give a stuff who made it.

addictedismoving Thu 10-Jan-13 13:04:26

I didn't/couldn't bf either of my dc. When it came to buying bottles, i had no idea where to start, where to go for advice or where to find information.

I would have been greatful for an advert or 2 explaining the diffrences and what to use (I'm intelligent enough to pick my way through propaganda!)

And criticising formula companies for their tactics isn't the same thing as criticising women who use formula.

Of course people are swayed by advertising. That's why it exists and why so much money goes into it!

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 13:05:42

please dont give the op failed breastfeeding stories

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:05:45

I don't actually agree that advertising newborn formula should be illegal. As a mother who wanted to ff I want to be able to make a choice about which brand is best etc. you can only make an informed choice like that if you know what is out there.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:05:49

Sock I will answer again then.

I don't care how people feed their babies. I care about irresponsible advertising.

I do care about car safety and do find adverts that promote unnecessary travel socially irresponsible.

I don't find these things mutually exclusive.

Lots and lots of people on this thread have implied that one should not criticize FF feeding (not that I have - I have criticized FF advertising) because one may upset people who are insecure. I haven't really found people in RL that are massively insecure but I accept other posters premise that they exist.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 13:06:30

QueenOfFarkingEverything

Its advertising bottles (allowed) and Follow on milk (allowed).

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 10-Jan-13 13:07:05

biscuit

katzen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:07:08

Right I'm off, theres a tv bingo advert on and the a KFC advert. So thats my afternoon planned out for me.

Looking forward to watching tea time adverts later to tell me what to do then.

Well said FairyJen

OlivetheotherReindeer Thu 10-Jan-13 13:07:34

OP, it's people like you that give breat feeding, a reputation for being self righteous......I'm bloody grateful to the formula company for feeding my baby when I couldn't. The alternative is unthinkable. If they wish to advertise, crack on. Here you go biscuit

Hemlet it IS banned. If you are in the UK then you have not had leaflets advertising newborn formula.

The fact that you think you have, just goes to show how close to the wind these companies are sailing with their advertising tactics.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:07:53

OP

But you do care how people feed their babies because otherwise you wouldn't care if they were swayed by the advertising would you confused

WillSucceed Thu 10-Jan-13 13:08:17

Actually I can see the Op's pov.
If adverts about FF for newborns aren't legal, there is a reason about it. The reason is that some women (but of course, none of the MNtters!) have been influenced in their decision to BF/FF depending on the ads. Quite often unconsciously so.
One of the reason is simply that FF ends up looking like something 'natural' to do, even more natural than BFing that isn't promoted/no adverts etc... (I for one didn't even question whether I should or not FF for my first baby. It's reading MN after I had dc1 that made me rethink about the whole BFing, feeding after 4 months old etc... issue).

So here we are in a position where we say 'Breast is best' and take steps to ensure women know about it and to try and increase bfing rates.

From that point on, yes you can wonder if it is then appropriate to accept any advert on formula milk at all. After all, whether it is a follow on formula or a newborn formula, it is still formula milk.

So I can the issue the OP raises. I can also see that FF isn't the work of the devil. It doesn't kill children (or rather it doesn't in our country. It does in other countries) and be a real help in all the situations other posters have raised.

Perhaps the question should be reframed to:
Is there ever a need to advertise formula milk?

hoodoo12345 Thu 10-Jan-13 13:08:42

YABU, their are so many reasons why a mother chose not to BB, and being made to feel like a irresponsible parent is not exactly helpful.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:08:58

Why is it irresponsible advertising though? I am still waiting for your evidence of all these women who decided to formula feed because of an advert.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:09:04

*grumpy" The data is compelling in showing that some people are swayed by advertising. Again just because the people on this thread aren't swayed doesn't mean that everyone isn't. The legislation is there for a reason.

This add doesn't break it...quite but I didn't think it was unreasonable to ask MN to go further than the government set minimum requirements...

Now I see that it is.

DolomitesDonkey Thu 10-Jan-13 13:09:06

Right - I'm going to get deleted for this but fuck it - I'm going to tell you something I've just seen OP write on another thread:

*On the fatties in Lanzarote thread she states :
"Is anyone going to read this thread and think "oh shit - I was in Lanzarotte maybe I'm obese! Oh god I am!!!! I will give up my life of cake and eat lettuce forever! Thank you sooo much....etc. etc."

Or is it more likely that someone who is already down on themselves and their weight will see YET ANOTHER thread expressing shock and horror at how terrible fat people are and will sink just a little bit further into the darkness?"

and yet she sees nothing ironic AT ALL in slating formula feeders - oh, I forgot - those with legitimate reasons for FF. hmm

Do people really think that seeing an ad for botles, will make someone suddenly decide to bottle feed instead of breastfeed ??

Ridiculous

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:09:57

OP

But you do care how people feed their babies because otherwise you wouldn't care if they were swayed by the advertising would you confused

Where is the advert anyway? Is it on a microsite or is it a banner? I'd like to see it before engaging in specifics about it - I was talking more generally and did say I hadn't seen it.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:10:52

sirzy there is very good correlation between countries banning advertising and BF levels increasing. The NHS have data on why women (who had the choice) chose to FF and some fraction cite advertising.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:10:58

I'd rather there be advertising so mothers know the options, instead of muddling through blindly.

We're intelligent people, who can ignore ads that we want to ignore. If you don't like that they promote FF, then don't pay attention.

Who are you to decide what is socially irresponsible? Others may (and obv do) feel differently.

I have yet to see the figures and evidence about the effectiveness of advertising.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:12:30

Provide a link to proper peer reviews evidence then. Until then I will continue to think your talking bollocks

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:12:35

nutcracker well I agree...it is ridiculous. And I would never make a decision of this nature based on advertising (Nb. don't have a TV so don't get exposed much). But some people do.

Otherwise advertising wouldn't be worth the money you spend on it....

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 13:12:44

I don't know why you are getting so worked up OP. I mean it's only for 6 weeks anyway and then it's onto baby rice and jars.

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 13:12:47

I was thinking the same thing Dolomites

I wonder if everyone including MNHQ should run everything past the OP before it appears on screen...

ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee Thu 10-Jan-13 13:12:53

What on earth is wrong with giving people information? It is up to them what they do with it. People who formula feed or express have every right to know what options are out there for bottles and follow on milk.

You'll want the internet banned next in case people go getting daft ideas...

There are other countries out there which might suit you more than the UK if you believe in dictatorship.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 10-Jan-13 13:13:36

I think the law goes far enough.

WillSucceed Thu 10-Jan-13 13:13:46

@ all the posters who think they need adverts to help them decide which brand of formula to use.

My premise is that the last way you should use to decide if a product is the right one for you is to rely on advertising. I wouldn't use adverts to decide if x washing machine id better than y. I look at technical characteristics to see which one will for my use of a washing machine.
The day where I buy a product because of the advert, I know I have bough a 'myth', an 'image' that the manufacturer wanted to sell me and that is unlikely to exists at all. Because that's the whole point of advertising. Just have a look at all the adverts for facial cream that 'visibly reduce wrinkles' that have been done on 15 people etc....

Viviennemary Thu 10-Jan-13 13:14:42

I don't like Boots anyway and avoid them whenever they can't. I hate their silly points cards which never work and there three for two offers which are a total con.

If you don't care about how people feed their babies, then why do you care about the advertising and it's affect? Your arguement is not logical.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:14:54

Exactly chipping.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:15:13

OP

Can you admit that you do actually care about how other women feed their children? You must care or you wouldn't be so upset about a small advert for follow on milk would you now!

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:15:43

willsuceed it's important (IMO) to advertise formula so that I, as a ff mother can make an informed choice about which product to buy based on what I think would be best for my baby.

If you remove all the advertising I lose any informed choice.

Also bottles are not just for ff babies they are also for expressing breast milk and so again it's helpful to have them advertised

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:16:47

And then tell us why you care about something that more than often has no detrimental effect for the child whatsoever and in some cases is a life saver?

Why does it bother you?

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 13:17:50

Can you admit that you do actually care about how other women feed their children? You must care or you wouldn't be so upset about a small advert for follow on milk would you now!

Exactly of course they care how babies are fed or she wouldn't have started the debate in the first place, by saying Mn is socially irresponsible about bottles then she thinks formula feeding is irresponsible ( and i am not going to buy into the tosh of I didnt say that because you didn't have to

willsuceed has it. OP, I think you worded it badly smile
FWIW, I agree with what I think you a trying to say.

Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:18:25

Queen - fair enough to be honest I have only saved the leaflets and not looked at them extensively so it's likely that they're just advertising the bottles rather than the formula.

In that case, I can understand where the OP is coming from with regard to 'why isn't newborn formula advertised if it's ok to advertise later on formula'. I don't know. I think that mothers should be able to be made aware of all the options in case there is a problem with feeding. It is, of course, essential that babies are fed so they should have all the information available. I still disagree that special offers or adverts will persuade mothers to FF rather than BF for the sake of it though.

Trousers99 Thu 10-Jan-13 13:18:56

I guess Lambert & Butler can start marketing their own range of children's toys, after all, children need something to play with and nobody in their right mind is going to link the two and be influenced by it!

WillSucceed Thu 10-Jan-13 13:19:04

Can all the posters who think it's OK to have an advert on follow on milk because it won't increase the chances of FFing/people are intelligent etc... explain me why there is now a legislation banning advert for newborn formula?

And why if this is not OK to advertise formula for a newborn, it's OK for a toddler?

Where/what is the difference?
Is there not a risk that by advertising formula for a toddler you end up with the same issue than when advertising for a newborn/baby?

Genuine questions....

They are allowed to advertise follow on milk!!! What is it with you constantly trying to put down formula feeders and their choices. First the tommy tippee bottles now this. You worry about your own children and we will look after ours. It's formula ffs not heroin !!!

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:19:57

Sirzy - advertising is about creating a background climate where a product is seen as acceptable, safe, possibly an aspirational choice.

It is impossible to 'prove' in the way that you are demanding, I'm sure you know this - if you don't...

I don't care if an individual person chooses to FF. I do care that women in the developing world are being persuaded into FFing their babies with the result that they die, and I care that the revenue that allows that to happen is in part generated in Britain.

MulledWineAndScully Thu 10-Jan-13 13:20:07

Sorry what's wrong with follow-on milk?? I bf to 9 months and then switched to formula when I returned to work (my work couldn't supply a fridge hmm).

I didn't know I was being socially irresponsible confused

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:20:07

Comparing smoking to formula. I have seen it all now!

Tee2072 Thu 10-Jan-13 13:20:13

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:20:38

dolomites worra yes it would be ironic indeed if I had in fact slated any decision made by anyone. But I haven't have I?

I have suggested that an advert is socially irresponsible. No-ones choices have been impugned AT ALL.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:20:43

ICBINEG Show us proof. Figures, studies. Show us some real evidence to back up your opinion.

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 13:21:04

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:21:15

It is also impossible for the op to say that is why people feed like she insists is the case. She has said their is evidence yet she (obviously!) won't link to it!

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 13:21:19

because formula is seen as a replacement for breastmilk and follow on milk is a supplement drink for older babies and toddlers "hemlet" It was a government and BF campaign to encourage women to breastfeed

DolomitesDonkey Thu 10-Jan-13 13:22:45

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

OP, if you think it's socially irresponsible to advertise a product, then you must inherently think that product is bad, or that people shouldn't use it.

If you can't admit to this, then there is no point taking anything else you say seriously.

MaryPoppinsBag Thu 10-Jan-13 13:22:55

Personally I am glad that some women choose to formula feed, it meant that when I had no choice to FF due to next to no milk production, the formula I chose was as close to breast milk as possible. Due to the Formula companies having the money to spend on research and improving formula.

If I had a third baby I would try to breast feed again. So obviously all that marketing of bottles and follow on milk has had no effect on my principles and choices.

But I have formula to thank for my happy and and healthy DS's. Without they'd be dead.

Do you think advertising offers enough accurate and unbiased information to make an informed choice on the back of, though?

I don't.

I'd rather formula wasn't advertised at all, and instead the companies passed the savings onto parents in the form of permanently reduced prices. Formula is disgustingly overpriced for what it is, which is dried milk with some vitamins and oils added - that's because those who need to use it are paying for all that advertising and cuddly cows through the inflated prices they pay for the product.

And they should make a contribution to a independently run information resource for those who need it, that gives accurate information on ingredients of each brand and how they are tested etc, correct ways to mix/store formula, details on mixed feeding and so on.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:22:55

Sirzy - read a book called The Politics of Breastfeeding. Pretty much covers it.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 13:23:05

I guess Lambert & Butler can start marketing their own range of children's toys, after all, children need something to play with and nobody in their right mind is going to link the two and be influenced by it!

oh fgs shock please stop it you look like an idiot

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 13:24:11

OP you are maybe coming over a tad self-righteous here.

Yes formula advertising is banned, so they cant publish adverts and make false claims regarding the merits of FF over BF as they used to which quite possibly in the past did sway people.

I havent seen this advert I have to say but if its along the lines of the aptimil one which clearly states We Know BreastMilk is best for your Baby but if you DO decide to move on heres a Fluffy Polar Bear, then I cant see what there is to get worked up about.

From what I have been reading lately and hearing are people not moving away from the "Breast is best" stick beating and more towards education and help, which is a much better approach in my opinion.

Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:24:13

WillSucceed - Honestly, I don't know. I think it should be advertised so that mothers have the options available for their own reasons. It seems a bit hysterical to ban those adverts, it does nothing but put a bigger stigma on formula feeding, forcing mothers who are unable to breastfeed to keep trying through guilt manipulation and end up with very unhealthy and underfed babies. That's taking it to extremes but it could happen.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:24:18

The government has determined that formula adds for newborns are socially irresponsible.

Formula companies side step that by advertising follow on etc. which side steps the letter of the law but is obviously equally irresponsible.

I thought MN might like to take a spirit of the law stand rather than the letter of the law.

That is all.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:26:17

hemlet if you could swap advertising on TV for having to sit through guilt trips in antenatal appointments wouldn't that be better though?

You don't miss adverts that you don't see. You can't help noticing the agenda during antenatal classes.

If we could preserve or improve our BF rate and at the same time reduce the guilt tripping of new mums, wouldn't that be a good thing?

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:27:06

OP

You have still not admitted that you do care how others feed their babies. You say you don't but how could you be so anti the advertising if you truly don't care how others feed their children.

Do you not think that worrying how others feed their babies when in most cases it makes not one jot of difference and in some cases saves lives is a tad ridiculous when you probably think nothing of putting your kid/s in the back of a car?

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 13:27:24

Why is it equally irresponsible to advertise follow on milk.

Not everyone wants to BF forever. In fact many people who are struggling with breast feeding, or who have to go back to work see 6 months as an achievement and want to use follow on milk.

Why should they be stopped from making those choices because on your say so?

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:27:58

Not all formula is "the same". My ds had terrible reflux and colic on SMS gold. On the advice of the hv we switched to aptimil an he was fine!

According to my hv aptimil is supposed to be the closest substitute to breast milk. It's information like that which is helpful to myself as a ff mother

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 13:28:40

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I think the formula ad ban is pretty ridiculous tbh. It's pretty drastic for a product that actually does not do any harm (I stress: in the UK).

I can't be the only one who's received store coupons that say 'can't be used for tobacco, alcohol or formula', and thought, WTF?

You can advertise beer, McDonalds and all the other crap that actually does massively affect people's health. The fact that out of all that, they choose to ban formula ads, strikes me as massively patronising toward women, guided by this idea that we're too stupid to know what's best for us.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:29:35

queen absolutely! Information is fine...advertising is not. It is very hard to unpick the concious info from an advert (the words) from the unconsious (the whole vibe of the thing).

A FF advert will say "breast is best" and then pump a megawatt of "but look who easy loving and fantastic FF is" into the images/music etc.

It would be better for the NHS to give out info on the formula brands and ban the advertising, MASSIVELY.

theodorakisses Thu 10-Jan-13 13:29:50

But why shouldn't the criminal fraternity amongst us, me included, be advertised to? If you are a BFer, good for you. Lots of us didn't choose to or couldn't. If you can promote the positive image of one side of it, isn't it a bit arrogant to say we should censor the other side?

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 13:30:24

Why is it equally irresponsible to advertise follow on milk.

because anything other than breastmilk is poison according to some and babies and toddlers should only have breastmilk it is probably an advertisers dream not to promote extended breastfeeding too

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 13:31:02

Or it helps to make people who cannot BF less of a failure, knowing that there is an alternative.

JumpHerWho Thu 10-Jan-13 13:31:16

What do you think the spirit of the law is OP? To not advertise formula at all? Do you think MN is being socially irresponsible for running adverts for baby products which many of us buy and use?

Laws are laws, there was no doubt plenty of pontificating done at the time.

And fwiw posts like yours on MN do far more to influence my feelings about how I feed my baby than any advertising. Peer-to-peer you see. So I feed my baby formula and feel constantly guilty about it, even though I tried and failed to bf. I plan to ff my second as its such a black and white decision for people like you, you probably think I'm a bad mother. Or a victim of socially irresponsible advertising.

Anyway - I'm pretty sure different health outcomes for bf and ff babies have been shown to be down to income, education, parenting and nutrition through solids anyway.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:31:48

dreaming You can read any number of articles/headlines/ anything really and see that FF costs the NHS millions every year. The idea that it does no harm (on average) is not correct. It is a tiny difference in risk for each individual baby and you could NEVER know if you own personal feeding method made any difference (positive or negative) but added up over the millions of babies in the country is DOES make a difference.

vladthedisorganised Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:11

Oh dear. I think YABU.
There's 'a national campaign to promote BF', ergo all advertising of formula and bottles should be banned?

Meh. Personally I'd love to live in a world without adverts, but I don't.

Advertising is basically lies. This or that brand of formula will not make my baby healthier, any more than a bowl of Special K in the morning will magically make me taller, thinner and wearing a red dress everywhere.

By the same token, I would really love to live in a world where the 'campaign to promote BF' stopped at medically proven facts, rather than bleating on about "It makes you feel wonderful and gives you a closer bond with your baby", which in my case was complete crap on both counts. One particular DVD issued with the Bounty pack a couple of years ago was especially bad on that count.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:24

You have to click this to even ENTER Aptimil site.

Breastfeeding is best for babies and provides many benefits. It is important that, in preparation for and during breastfeeding, you eat a healthy, balanced diet. Combined breast and bottle feeding in the first weeks of life may reduce the supply of your own breastmilk, and reversing the decision not to breastfeed is difficult. The social and financial implications of using an infant milk should be considered. Improper use of an infant milk or inappropriate foods or feeding methods may present a health hazard. If you use an infant milk, you should follow manufacturer’s instructions for use carefully – failure to follow the instructions may make your baby ill. Always consult your doctor, midwife or health visitor for advice about feeding your baby.

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:25

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hemlet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:28

Icbineg, yes I do think it would be a great thing. Unfortunately things aren't as black and white as that. So many women can't BF, or won't for their own reasons. I don't think anyone should be made to feel guilty for their decisions.

I understand (from mrsjay) that the ban is to promote BF rather than FF, but I think it's going too far, there should be strict guidelines along the lines of not being allowed to promote it above BF rather than banning it altogether.

But as I say, I'm only pregnant with my first and perhaps am not 'qualified' enough to have any real standing in this debate. It's just what I think really. That's not being snipey by the way smile

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:36

I wasn't convinced by a formula advert not to bf. with dd bein honest I just didn't want to, I find whole idea quite creepy for me personally. With ds I wanted to try given the abuse I suffered from bf mothers with dd but I wasn't able. I was apart from him for over 24hrs after his birth and he was in scbu. When I was able to attemp to bf him he didn't want to and was well established as a ff. I chose to continue that as it was critical that he gain weight.

FairyJen your HV is wrong.

Your son may well have done better on Aptamil - different formulas suit different babies - but it is not the closest to breastmilk. Aptamil invest heavily in advertising to HVs/midwives/doctors to try and give that impression, and they market as a premium product - hence the scientific claims, medical looking packaging, and higher price point. Its an effective strategy but doesn't make their claims true.

Some way of finding out exactly what is in each formula, what it does, what side effects it might have, how different formulas compare, and so on, would be far more useful to anyone looking to make a choice than the wooly and unscientific claims in adverts.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:33:23

OP
I see you are unable to retract your statement that you don't care how others feed their babies.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 13:33:32

strikes me as massively patronising toward women, guided by this idea that we're too stupid to know what's best for us.

yy to this. As choosing how to feed is 99% of the time down to the woman, I sometimes ponder if we would have the ban on advertising infant milk if it was something that men tended to decide on.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:33:45

jump you don't seem like the sort of person who would make their personal feeding choice in order to spite someone on the internet to be honest. I think you aren't being entirely honest there.

Proudnscary Thu 10-Jan-13 13:34:44

Oh my actual God OP.

Formula isn't:

a) Illegal
b) Poison

And

c) adults can do what the fuck they want - they can listen or ignore advertising and they can use their breasts to feed their children or use formula milk from bottles without having to feel guilty or judged or looked down upon.

JumpHerWho Thu 10-Jan-13 13:34:55

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 13:35:20

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

What's next? Attacking the nhs for prescribing formula?

BelaLugosisShed Thu 10-Jan-13 13:36:42

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:37:03

sock I don't care on an individual level at all. I don't think of you any differently if you tell me your feeding choice. I am not interested in whether you made a choice or if it was forced on you.

Actually that is a lie. Something I care about far more than this little thread is how many women are not given the right support in hospital to follow their feeding choice. Makes me bonkers mad that people who want to BF and could BF if given the right support are forced out of their choice.

So fine I do care, in that specific case.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:37:27

bela indeed - thank god noone here is doing that!

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 13:37:28

Fgs there is nothing wrong with ff, not all of us can or want to bf.
Feeding is a choice, everyone has their own mind-Advertising either ff or bf is never going to change a womans mind!

I've tried with 3 out of 4 of my dc to give them the best start, but my nipples just weren't up to it, they were cracked and sore & bf tbh wasn't for me. I bonded with all my babies & i don't think ff them was a crime & yes ff should be advertised so us that choose it can make a more informed choice in which milk is better.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:38:59

Pickled - do you not see this part?

'It is important that, in preparation for and during breastfeeding, you eat a healthy, balanced diet.'

This is bullshit, and a subtle, subliminal message to make women think 'oh FFS I still can't have a glass of wine and a tub of brie'. And also to think that if they do have wine and brie, that their milk will be of reduced quality - and therefore why not just FF because then your baby will get lovely formula, you can have wine and shovel crisps and it won't affect your baby at all.

It is all advertising, and I cannot believe that people are so blind that they can't see it.

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Thu 10-Jan-13 13:39:10

I found the lack of formula information incredibly frustrating at making an informed decision. The information should be available, not suppressed.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:40:48

Jump it does. In increased ear infections, gastro problems that BFing is shown to help prevent.

Again, I have no issue with people choosing to FF, but be clear on your reasons.

According to Unicef (who reference their figures as coming from the DoH), a 'moderate increase' in BF rates would save the NHS £40 million every year.

SolomanDaisy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:40:52

I agree OP. Advertising newborn formula is illegal for a very good reason and MN should be careful not to take part in formula companies' attempts to make formula the default option for newborns. I think MN posters generally lean towards agreeing with that, so I am surprised at this thread.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:41:01

Cognac and given how easy it was to pick up on, I doubt it's a massive influence.

"FF costs the NHS millions every year". How exactly? DS was started on formula by a nurse in an NHS hospital. Because he wouldn't take to BF and I was exhausted and upset.

And I didn;t want to get into posting a lot of figures as I know it annoys people, but if posters are going to be reported for stating a fact then its only fair to give a reference for it.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:42:31

So what if it is subliminal messaging tho. I'm sick of hearing "breast is best" I don't believe that true and no matter how many times I hear it I will not change my mind on the matter.

It should be down to the choice of the mother/parents how they feed their babies and that's that as far as I'm concerned!

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:42:34

jump feel free to report but it is a fact widely reported in the media and the basis of the whole campaign to increase BF rates.

The NHS don't fund campaigns for the fun of it, they do it because it will save them money in the long run.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:43:00

grumpy - the formula companies advertise heavily to HCPs, especially neonatal ones. Who better to be the introducer of formula that someone that the parents will trust?

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 13:43:45

Why does it cost the NHS anything?
They don't even give out formula in hospitals anymore, you have to bring in your own!

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:43:47

cant couldnt agree more.

More information about FF should be supplied by the NHS. But advertising should be banned.

Yes I agree can'tbelieve but in what way does advertising disseminate correct unbiased factual information?

The information parents need to be able to make informed decisions about formula is actually pretty hard to come by and that's not right. It should be widely available from a trusted source.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:44:21

Queen nobody gets annoyed when figures are posted to back up a claim. In this case, if we saw the figures and the OP was correct, we would admit that. As we have not seen these figures, after repeated requests by several posters, we must assume they don't exist.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:44:36

pumpkin it costs them in the treatment of illness that are more common in FF babies.

It is a tiny difference in risk for each baby but added up over millions of babies it is significant.

The cost to the NHS is in the increased incidence of gastro-enteritis and other conditions in formula fed babies.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 13:45:14

Its important to eat a healthy balanced diet, whatever. No that wouldnt guilt trip me.

Id be more likely to be wallowing in a pit of guilt and thinking of the social implications of FF my baby TBH as I was when I had to last time, though I realise this to be my issue.

We need to stop picking holes in each other over this issue, I am regularly aghast by some of the comments I see on here about formula feeding and it makes everyone touchy I suppose.

As far as advertising goes, yes that would be no loss, as long as health care professionals are equipped and able to provide information instead, however when I was in hospital the mere mention of formula had them shitting their pants and running off. Im not even exaggerating.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:45:31

pumpkin are you serious?

It costs, because in general people who have been FF are more unhealthy than those who have been BF. This is a general trend and observed over whole lifetimes.

I don't know what figures you mean grumpy but I was talking about the poster who was reporting the OP for saying formula feeding costs the NHS millions every year.

It does. That's fact and can be backed up with figures and research.

SolomanDaisy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:46:25

Pumpkin, it costs the NHS money because at a population level breasted babies are healthier than formula fed babies.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:46:31

Alibaba I couldn't breastfeed. I wasn't pressured to use formula. My child physically refused to be BF. Given the choice between FF and letting my son starve, I'll take FF.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:46:37

I think if you looked at how much the nhs spends treating alcohol related illness and injury or obesity you would find it adds up to far more and yet advertising cheap alcohol and unhealthy foods is still legal....

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:47:48

I can't actually believe I am being asked to provide evidence that advertising has an affect on people's decisions.

I mean really? Its a fecking multi-billion pound industry.

There are lots of proper primary research papers on this but I can't access them from home.

From non-proprietary sources you could look at the countries that banned advertising and see how their BF rates jump up to like 99% afterwards...

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 13:48:02

Well i didn't know that as all my dc were healthy as am i and my sister.
Whereas my dbro died of cancer aged 16-he was bf, we were not.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 13:48:33

The cost to the NHS is in the increased incidence of gastro-enteritis and other conditions in formula fed babies.

Queen - the incidence of gastro-enteritis could be reduced with better education in hospital for those that need it in terms of making up bottles. Its still quite apparent from the feeding boards that some people are not aware of the new guidelines of making bottles.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:48:38

Queen so post the links. Proof, evidence. We have yet to see anything but opinion.

Flobbadobs Thu 10-Jan-13 13:49:20

There is an awful lot of talk about how formula is pushed onto new mothers but very little about how breast feeding is pushed despite it not always being the best option for that child or mother.
I have personally experienced a 'breast feeding counsellor' employed in a hospital which banned the use of formula in the hospital unless the baby was in SCBU. This woman barged into my room, grabbed hold of my breast without my permission and forced it into my DD's mouth while I was trying to latch her on. She gave me an unwanted lecture about the evils of formula, despite me making it known to her that DD was my second child and I was fully capable of making my own decision. In the end I had to have her removed from my room. My daughter came very close to ending up in SCBU because her blood sugar wouldn't stabilise due to her not getting anything from me. I had to get a family member to smuggle in formula and bottles in order to get DD fed and us discharged from hospital.
Let formula be advertised. Let mothers make their own informed choices without being subjected to self righteous shite like this.

I don't think 'breast is best'

I think breastmilk is the normal food for a human baby and that advertising (and thus idealising) anything different should not be allowed.

I also think that formula is a life saver and we are extremely lucky to live in a country where it is available and we have the resources to prepare it correctly.

I think parents deserve accurate unbiased information about feeding their baby.

I don't think formula companies are best placed to provide this.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:49:27

fairy yes indeed. But legislation on that has and will continue to come out. Junk food can't be advertised while children are watching etc.

Minimum alcohol price per unit etc. and of course the ban on fag adverts.

Generally when the NHS can save money by early intervention it happens....eventually.

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 13:49:28

It's a question of ethics. Women who use formula milk, for whatever reason, should be able to select the brand and formulation based on good information - their babies' health depends on getting this right.

Instead they get marketing, 'free' fluffy toys and other bits of tat, sky-high prices, with each brand trying to tell you they are the 'best' or 'better' or 'better than ever' or 'new and improved' or 'now with [insert technical sounding ingredient]'. With infant formula, the brands are pretty identical nutritionally in terms of quality, though the exact ingredients may vary - they have to be like that, otherwise they don't meet international and national regulations. Speciality formulas, follow ons and toddler milks are not subject to same regs, and may well differ....though you would find it hard to know, because full information is not easily accessible to the public - they'd rather you went with fluff and marketing, because that is, apparently, what sells product.

That's what's insulting to parents - that unless they hunt very hard, that's all they can get. Do you think Brand X causes more wind or colic or constipation or reflux than Brand Y? Is there published research on this to help you work out if changing the formula you use is worth doing? No - you have to experiment.

I know that MNetters are a special breed and they, uniquely among the human race, are impervious to marketing, but the rest of the world is not. I'd ask this though: those of you who use formula, how did you choose which brand to pick? Marketing will have played some small role in that - even if it was the marketing that worked on your mother smile (like soap powders, consumers are strongly drawn to the brand they remember from childhood).

Ethical marketing would be making all formula widely available at a consistently low price, with minimal branding and no advertising. Information about preparation and storage, and different ingredients, would be easily and clearly available.

The same goes for bottles and teats.

None of this stuff needs to be advertised to tell people bottle/formula feeding is an option for them - I think everyone knows that babies can use bottles, without seeing advertisements. A lack of advertising does not imply judgement on the people who use the product - I have never seen an ad for a coat hanger, or a pencil, or a washing up bowl but I use all these products daily without feeling people are judging me smile

ThedementedPenguin Thu 10-Jan-13 13:50:07

Op YABVU.

I decided to FF my child. I never considered BF as I didn't want to do this. I made the decision myself. Even though the whole way through my pregnancy all midwives talked about was breast feeding.

Formula companies do not advertise first stage milk as it is illegal. They are allowed to advertise follow on milk.

From what I've read on this Op you've basically said that people who bottle feed are socially irresponsible, makes their children unhealthy.

To me you are basically telling me that my son is worse off as I've formula fed him.

Maybe it's time you wise up a bit Op. Woman are as stupid as you make us out to be.

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 13:50:10

Advertising never swayed me either way with any of my dc.
It was through personal choice that i ff fed them and due to not being able to carry on with it.

I don't think a woman watches an advertisment and bases her decision on it.

Link to UNICEF report - you have to follow a further link for the full text.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:51:59

pumpkin I used the phrase "on average" for a reason. You can't tell the difference between a BF child and FF child, but you can tell the difference between 1000 BF children and 1000 FF children.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 13:52:32

pumpkin I have no issue with how you fed your child, I have no issue with how any individual in this country feeds their child. You are looking for censure where there is none.

And in relation to your dbro, I am very sorry for your loss. Obviously though anecdote does not equal data. There will be many healthy people who have been FF, and many unhealthy who have been BF. The trend is on a population level, not individual.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:53:08

pumpkin I am glad you don't base important decisions on advertising. Neither do I. But advertising would not be the major player in our society that it is if everyone was like you and me....

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 13:53:40

I think bf is more forced onto women.
It shouldn't be as it is a personal choice.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 13:54:16

OP

BF v FF stats IMO are so unreliable because they never factor in mitigating factors that skew results. For example. The fact far more FF feed babies come from different socio economic backgrounds.

No-one can know for sure what he actual difference are for FF to BF.

I am interested to know OP do you have any stats that show FF v BF for children from similar backgrounds, locations and genetic disposition?

Where I live I do not see ANY obese children, some have been FF some BF but the influence is socio economic factors not feeding methods.

Maybe instead of getting so worked up about FF you could channel your energy into helping under privileged children mothers and campaigning for them.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 13:54:39

Thank you, Queen.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 13:55:05

I think both options should be promoted equally all this rubbish about "normal" way to feed children etc. so am I / my dc abnormal?

I think what is important is that both mother and child are happy and healthy. Causing stress, guilt pressure etc etc etc over how to feed does not help the situation. It should be an informed choice

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:55:45

Anyway we have strayed massively off course now. The fact that FF costs the NHS millions is true. The fact that countries see increases in BF when they ban advertising of FF is also true. Debating these things is pointless.

In this country we have a partial ban on advertising but that doesn't mean that MN couldn't hold itself to a higher standard than that mandated in law.

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 13:56:00

Pickled you say, "when I was in hospital the mere mention of formula had them shitting their pants and running off. Im not even exaggerating. "

Er, yes. Yes you are.

Until the debate can move on from 'funny' exaggerations like this, we can't get anywhere.

Flobbadobs what you experienced is excrutiatingly bad care from someone who should not be in a position to 'help' mothers. What happened when you made a complaint about this person?

ThedementedPenguin Thu 10-Jan-13 13:56:21

pumpkin I completely agree. I felt more forced to breastfed my ds than to FF. even when I came to the decision to FF all HCP kept going on at me to breastfed even after I told them I wasn't going to bf

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 13:56:45

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 13:57:37

sock most large scale trials control for confounding factors. i can pm you some if you like?

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 13:59:02

tiktok with all due respect you were not there. We have had this conversation before as well.

One of the staff told me in the middle of the night when I had to ask for FF to top up DS who refused to latch & feed that they were "not supposed to talk about it" and she was bloody nervous.

The approach Breast is best, BF not working out for you? Erm shit here is some formula (but its not very good) was what I got.

I have no earthly reason to fib about it, its not even that relevant to what we are talking about.

ThedementedPenguin Thu 10-Jan-13 13:59:39

In this country we have a partial ban on advertising but that doesn't mean that MN couldn't hold itself to a higher standard than that mandated in law.

Therefore saying that anyone who FF their child are the worst.

iseenodust Thu 10-Jan-13 14:00:11

OP YABU It's an ad among a sea of ads. It's clearly an ad and we can ignore it.

The unhealthy FF babies theory tends to correlate more to other co-existent (sp?) factors eg poverty.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 14:00:28

a step that you need to take for your baby's development I should have said - clearly formula is a step you need to take if you're going out to work full time and don't fancy pissing about with expressing, for example.

FairyJen about 10 times more is spent annually on formula advertising than on promoting/supporting breastfeeding.

I'd say there is inequality there but possibly not in the way you think.

iseenodust Thu 10-Jan-13 14:00:54

x post with sock.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 14:01:43

"It costs, because in general people who have been FF are more unhealthy than those who have been BF. This is a general trend and observed over whole lifetimes."

But this may or may not be because they are BF or FF. So it's misleading to state it in this way. The healthy BF children are most coming form a different background than the unhealthy FF child. It is influenced by socio group ad no research has been done that separates this out as far as I know.

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 14:01:56

Fairy, why be so annoyed that breastfeeding is described as the normal way to feed?

This is physiologically true. Just as breathing is the normal way to take in oxygen, chewing and swallowing is the normal way to send food down the digestive tract, sweating is the normal way to regulate your body temperature.

Proudnscary Thu 10-Jan-13 14:03:16

It so horribly unsisterly, unhelpful, judgemental and full of faux concern and snobbishness all this anti formula feeding bullshit.

Flobbadobs Thu 10-Jan-13 14:05:44

tiktok she didn't come back to me and I received an apology from the doctor who discharged me. The hospital changed it's policy shortly afterwards. It was a huge factor in my decision to home birth for my third though.
A friend of mine had her son there not long after I was discharged and as far as I know the counsellor was only available on request rather than just showing up so maybe my complaint was taken into account.

TheCraicDealer Thu 10-Jan-13 14:06:02

Maybe increased rates of FF'ing do cost the NHS more in terms of treating issues that BF'ing may have prevented/helped. However, you can't measure that cost in any meaningful way.

What you could measure, if the NHS had a blanket ban on prescribing FF in hospital, is the cost of treating mothers for exhaustion, mental health issues, or physical problems with mastitis etc as a direct result of not receiving appropriate help and support when finding they were unable to BF. And that's before you even consider what harm you could cause to a newborn by not feeding them!

Which bits are 'bullshit'?

Genuine question.

Even if FF costs the NHS money on a population level, it is a DROP in the bucket compared to the money spent on illnesses and accidents related to alcohol, tobacco and unhealthy food.

I would take the formula ad ban more seriously if it were part of a broader ban to encourage health. I think it's pretty ridiculous in a country that, until last year, featured the Carling Cup.

wannaBe Thu 10-Jan-13 14:08:12

"How is advertising FF irresponsible? Because you are trying to persuade someone to make a choice that is less healthy. If it isn't a choice you do it anyway...so why advertise?" So where do we draw the line at these choice-making adverts then? Let's see....

Any advert for any kind of Alcohol, because, alcohol is bad for you...

Any advert for any kind of fast food restaurant, ready meal, sauce in a jar/packet,

Adverts for sweets, crisps, biscuits, chocolate, desserts, icecream.... shall I go on?

And that's before we get to the adverts for the gambling sites and bingo sites where people will be making unhealthy choices to lose all their money.

No no, only adverts for the best salads plus free range meat/organic vegetables will suffice. Only the healthiest products will suffice, choices need not apply.

Personally I have no idea why anyone actually cares about how other people feed their babies.

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 14:09:08

Spot on WannaBe-where will it end.

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 14:09:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 14:10:30

queen I'm not disputing that at all. I'm saying it should be equal. Increase advertising bf by all means but then increase information and support for ff mothers. Fairs fair right?

ouryve Thu 10-Jan-13 14:11:09

Quit the guilt tripping, OP. I breastfed DS2 for 2.5 years. I was very ill after having DS1, though - in hospital until he was almost 2 weeks old because i had fluid on my lungs and i wasn't even allowed to hold him for a short period because I was radioactive while it was being investigated. I'm lucky to have established breastfeeding with him at all - in the end, we settled for combination feeding because that was all I could manage while I was recovering. I managed to keep on nursing him until he was 18 months old.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Ok FairyJen it sounds like we agree then grin

I think there should be far more information available about formula. I just don't think advertising fulfills that need.

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 14:15:24

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 14:15:52

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 14:16:36

Sockmuppet- plenty of studies have been controlled for socio-economic background, actually.

Op - YANBU. I was shocked to see 2 pages of people disagreeing with you - I thought I'd stepped into a parallel universe (or maybe net mums?!)
Sadly some people can't help but see these types of posts as a personal attack. I can understand - its a sensitive topic. But it's really not personal.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 14:18:26

Cat

Op - YANBU. I was shocked to see 2 pages of people disagreeing with you - I thought I'd stepped into a parallel universe (or maybe net mums?!)

There you are for an example of snobbish bullshit.

You could be the healthiest breast fed toddler in the world. Doesn't for one second mean that you won't get hit by a car thirty years from now break your leg and require thousands upon thousands of pounds worth of surgery and physio. Won't stop someone from getting depressed after smart image break up requiring medication for years and it won't stop people getting drink or taking drugs. All of which cost the nhs millions a year. And you won't ever know that being breasted or formula fed woulda made any difference by that point. Stop attacking people's choices we do not need your approval!!!

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 14:18:57

Joke, sorry. Misplaced.

theodorakisses Thu 10-Jan-13 14:19:18

Obviously advertising is not information but why only expose people to one side of it? The BF adverts are able to advertise, if you CENSOR the rest then surely you are at risk of belittling or judging people. I had a statutory 11 days leave and then I had to go back to work. Not ideal but the bills must be paid. My choice for working abroad but i felt that the quality of life and opportunity outweighed the guilt. Healthy reasonably well adjusted brood and I absolutely stand by my right to choose without being sighed at and assumed to be a bit thick.

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 14:20:23

I didn't mean because of people Ffing, by the way. That would have been snobbish bullshit! I just meant because mn has a reputation for being a bit lentil-weavery, it was just a silly joke. Sorry.
The rest of my post still stands though...

My ideas for information that should be available from one trusted and independent source would include.... exactly what all the ingredients in formula are for, what they are derived from, how they are tested, what side effects they might have, comparisons of different formulas so you can choose between brands, step by step printable photo instructions on safe handling/preparation, information about why that is important, just for starters.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 14:20:41

Op I don't have an issue as such with your view on advertising its more the fact that you are using formula as the platform to prove your point.

We all k ow there are pitfalls to advertising but you never hear men go "carlsberg probably the best beer" er no "becks is best" " you don't get a hangover thus saving the nhs millions On paracetamol every year....

Instead it seems to be always about how ff are awful mothers. Surely the fact that we feed our children regardless of how is the important issue.

There are other advertising areas you can attack if you feel that strongly. Why pick this one?

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 14:22:30

OK thanks for clarifying there Cat.

There is a really good website which compares the brands Queen and as far as I was aware they are all pretty homogeneous.

I went to Tesco and manually compared all the boxes, my HV told me they couldn't comment on which brand any more - which I suppose makes sense but it would have been good if she said they are all the blardy same. Saved me a lot of work.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 14:23:15

Cat98

"Sockmuppet- plenty of studies have been controlled for socio-economic background, actually."

Please could you link one as I am genuinely interested.

marriage break up fat thumbs sorry blush

DumSpiroSperHoHoHo Thu 10-Jan-13 14:24:16

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 14:24:19

Caffeine drip - but you could say that about anything! I might as well stuff my face with burgers and chips, not worry about veg, who cares - I might get hit by a bus tomorrow!
(not comparing ff to burger and chips before anyone shouts - just saying that trying to make a healthy/ier choice isn't pointless because something randomly unlucky may happen in the future, surely?

But... who said women who choose to formula feed are awful mothers? Nobody on this thread has said that (from what I can see, anyway) and if they did they would be called out on it pretty damn fast.

And I think the main reason formula advertising gets focussed on is that the people whose sole source of nutrition is being decided are not able to make that decision for themselves (being babies and all that grin) and so there needs to be very stringent control on the factors that influence the decision making process.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 14:27:34

Even without any adverts babies are not going to be making the choice tho so surely it's better that parents are informed WELL about ALL the feeding choices

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 14:27:54

FairyJEn - because formula marketing does huge damage worldwide. Women in developing countries who are perfectly able to BF, are handed 'free' formula, which they make up with water that carries disease.
The free samples run out, the woman's own milk supply has dried up and her family are left trying to find the money to pay for expensive formula - which they will make up with disease-ridden water.

These are the same companies that hand out cows, and bears and all the other gubbins to new mothers here - and everyone says 'what's the harm?'.

It's ok cat I was just replying to the point that it costs nhs millions apparently. That there r far more things that cost far more and that advertising or no advertising it's it the sole drain on the nhs smile

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 14:28:32

I agree with OP

Because she has objected to the advertising, not to women using formula (classic MN straw man scenario)

The TV adverts for formula milk are appalling. Particularly the Aptimil ones. They may be sneaking under the wire by only advertising "follow-on milk" but they are disingenuous.

"Breastmilk is the best protection for your baby" No, it's FOOD. It IS "normal", it is not some medical precaution.

"If you decide to move on" - well, I agree with a previous poster who pointed out that this implies a progression of steps which is unnecessary.

Several of the adverts for follow-on milk show babies far too young to be drinking it.

I would ban advertising of all formula products personally.

It's not

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 14:30:34

I've been Googling and can't find a link about FF babies costing the NHS more money due to illness than BF babies?

Does anyone have a link please?

Absolutely FairyJen

Information is crucial.

Advertising isn't information though, its idealising guff with the sole intention of getting you to buy a product.

I mean for example Aptamil go on about 'immunofortis' on their packaging and in their adverts. What is it? Where does it come from? What does it do? What side effects might it have? What other formulas include it under a different name? Is it vegetarian?

You don't get that, fairly important, information from an advert.

I posted it worra but here it is again - link

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 14:32:07

ali if that's the case then with all respect that's the area that should be targeted. More education for those women and free birth control etc etc

Instead my choice to see ifs formula is on offer which milk next etc etc is being taken away.

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 14:32:31

Sockmuppet - I can't link as I'm on phone, but for example on the UNICEF site there is a list of Differences in health outcome associated with infant feeding method, and it says above 'the studies have all been controlled for social and economic variables'.
It's google-able - I can post direct link later from computer.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 14:33:11

but by objecting to the legal advertising you are objecting to formula feeding AND CHOICE this is baby bottles that somebody might buy to feed their baby formula because if they are in boots buying bottles they may wander over and buy a tin of sma or whatever, this is what the OP is objecting to this is what she thinks is the spirit of the law, or whatever she said, but tbh she thinks that anything to do with formula shouldn't be advertised

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 14:33:25

Breastfeeders have to worry about supply, intake, quality at every feed

I know that a lot of women struggle with BF and do need support, but ime "supply, intake and quality" barely featured. It's one of the joys - lots of wet nappies, baby growing - you're fine.

Maybe people over-complicate BF sometimes. If it's going well (and I appreciate that it doesn't for everyone) then you don't need any paraphenalia (beyond pads I suppose) and you don't need to monitor anything beyond nappies.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 14:34:45

I agree advertising is not information but you can pair the two, get information about what ingredient is what and what purpose it has then you can understand the advert and make a better informed choice about the product.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 14:35:10

Formula advertising is not about infant feeding or babies' health and welfare, they are about getting women to become consumers - if you begin using it, you are then "hooked" until you wean your baby. Very lucrative.

In an ideal world we could have a non-profit-making NHS-run system of producing cheap, good-quality formula for women who want or need to use it, and hospital staff properly trained to help, inform and support women whatever their choices are. Rather than greedy amoral companies (like Nestle for example) cashing in on poor breastfeeding support and lack of information and confidence in new parents.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 14:35:58

FairyJen - these companies are huge though, and have enormous revenues. The whole promotion of infant formula should be banned IMO, in favour of the kind of centralised distribution and information that Queen is talking about.

And infant formula shouldn't be on offer, that is also illegal. Follow on milk for over 1's can be promoted, but by then cow's milk is perfectly adequate so no need to spend ££s on formula.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 14:36:14

bottles are irrelevant, lots of mothers need those whether they bf or not

LovesBeingAtHomeForChristmas Thu 10-Jan-13 14:37:12

Have you never looked at the mn logo? Or the strap line?

I still want to see the advert thats started this though! Where is it?

With regards to the link- no one knows what causes SIDS they can only offer advice in what MAY help prevent it. They can't possibly ever know! I mean it mentioned about most stopping at six weeks and it could contribute but isn't that just another unproven coincidence. They can't ever know. Babies are only exclusively breasted for a Maxof six months before food is introduced and it's their only source of nutrition. After then it could be any number of things that then go on to contribute to the progression of other complaints. What about environmental causes , life style choices the. Mum made etc. u can't say for sure your baby will be healthier if u feed a certain way cos u won't ever know what that child woulda been like if u had made a different decision

HopAndSkip Thu 10-Jan-13 14:38:21

I agree with OP here. There's a reason advertising formula isn't allowed. It makes breastfeeding seem less of the norm. It could discourage some women who are already feeling unsure about being able to feed in public so on, by making them feel that "everyone" or a large proportion are FF and it is what they should do too.

Everyone should promote breast feeding as the priority, as it is best for the baby. Anyone advertising formula is doing it for profit, not the best for the baby.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:39:16

sock I have PMed you a trial that states in a nice way how the data is controlled for confounding variables. I would rather discuss it via PM than here for reasons stated in the PM.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 14:40:03

JenaiMorris - the over complication of BF is part of the whole thing IMO. Yes it is tough to gets things started, sometimes, but once it is going then it is so easy.
I have never worried about supply, intake and quality beyond DS1 being about 2 weeks old.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:41:01

Good god you certainly DO NOT need to worry about supply and quality at every breast feed! That just works. No worry required.

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 14:42:17

Thanks Queen, that's a long report so I admit to having speed read it

But I can't see that they're taking other important factors into account...like the baby's home environment, whether the mother smoked/drank during pregnancy or whether she was overweight or obese.

These are all important factors regarding childhood illness.

So for example, if 100 FF or BF babies were admitted to hospital with certain conditions/illnesses, they may have something in common ie they were born to smokers or overweight obese mums.

I've saved it though so will read it properly later.

HelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 10-Jan-13 14:44:02

Hello. What advert? Where? Can you please let us know?

That's just what I said worra smile

Fairylea Thu 10-Jan-13 14:45:47

If bf promotion is so strong right now (and it is believe me) then that doesn't explain why people still choose to ff.... all it proves is advertising doesn't work!!

So by proxy advertising a few bottles and or milk isn't going to make much of a difference to people choosing not to bf.

I chose to ff both mine. My reasons were nothing related to health or advertising. It was simply because I didn't like the idea of a baby on my breast ( again that is my choice) and also I wanted to share feeding with my dh. I wanted to be able tosshare night feeds completely without expressing or breastfeeding.

I also chose to have an elective section. (Which ironically it turned out I needed anyway).

I'm a truly awful mother.

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 14:45:52

Great minds caffeine smile

IloveJudgeJudy Thu 10-Jan-13 14:45:54

Didn't have time to read the whole thread (300 posts), but I would add this. When I had DC1, I had not considered that I would have to have an EMCS. So I had not researched it. I had not considered that I would have to FF, either. DH had to go and buy bottles, etc while I was still in hospital. Neither he nor I had any idea about what he was buying. The staff in Boots were very helpful, but if I'm completely honest I would not have bought the brand that he did (they didn't push him towards the most expensive, either) for various reasons.

I think you, OP, AB completely U. You seem to be a person who looks down on those of us who were physically incapable of breastfeeding. Fwiw I did try very hard to breastfeed DC2, but made both the rest of the family and me very miserable whilst trying. That is the kind of pressure that your attitude puts on new mothers. Despicable.

I think MN are doing nothing wrong at all. Only wish I'd discovered the site much earlier.

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 14:46:32

Cat98 I have searched but not found it. Please link later if you do find it. I did find this on unicef though

It is always important to bear in mind the following when considering the strength of any evidence:

Carrying out randomised controlled trials which are clearly recognised as the “gold standard” is not always possible as it is not ethical to randomly allocate mothers in a way which arbitrarily may decide that half of the group will bottle feed.
Many studies are flawed by staff or mothers deviating from the protocol as this may seem counter-intuitive or too hard to follow in the situation in which they are being cared for or living.
Sample sizes, particularly for older infants, become very small, particularly in countries such as the UK with low breastfeeding continuation rates/exclusivity. It is therefore difficult to accurately infer statistics.
In specialist areas such as caring for preterm infants, it is difficult to recruit mothers at such difficult times and again, small numbers are reflected in a lack of solid evidence about many aspects of care.
Breastfeeding may be documented as having a “small protective effect” against certain illnesses. Whilst it is clearly accurate to say that that the risk of not breastfeeding is greater with some conditions than others, what is a small protective effect in one child is likely to have a much more dramatic effect across a whole population.

And this omits the socio demographic question.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 14:46:56

tbh I agree with what worra said ( she is always right hmm ) BF is only beneficial when it is included in a healthy lifestyle same as formula, you can breast feed your child till they are 7 but if their lifestyle is unhealthy their enviroment is chaotic then what chance has a child got same for FF

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 14:48:16

Icbineg try telling that to all 3 of my 3 who get desperately underweight whilst bf in particular my dd who was rushed into scbu malnourished and underweight thanks to bfing.

Try telling that to the consultant who treated my dd who said they'd treated countless babies in a similar situation who had suffered from over zealous and incorrect midwives saying what you just posted.

Supply and quality doesn't "just work" for every mother.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:49:52

sock were does that quote come from? Also did you have a look at the PM?

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Thu 10-Jan-13 14:50:01

When I had my ds I spent a long time researching the hell out of feeding, and different formulas but the information just isn't there. Yes advertising isn't information, but where is the information??!

FloatyBeatie Thu 10-Jan-13 14:50:09

I agree with the OP. So many adverts for follow-on milk are doing their damnedest to use the legality of advertising follow-on as a Trojan horse for images designed to promote formula feeding at all stages including new-born, and it seems that the Boots offer is not innocent of this.

Not sure what the point of MN boycotting Nestle is unless they take a principled stand across the board in relation to such adverts (except of course that boycotting Nestle is a shortcut to looking committed without actually being committed).

Mind you, MN are flogging those "breakfast biscuits" on a talk thread right now, so they clearly don't go to great lengths anymore to restrict themselves to promoting good products.

So more breastfeeding could potentially maybe save £40 million/year.

Alcohol costs the NHS around £3 billion a year. And unlike with BF, the links between alcohol and bad outcomes are extremely obvious, even at the individual level.

So why not push for bans on alcohol adverts?

If you drive, I suspect there is a greater chance of your baby being injured by a drunk driver than by formula. <rampant speculation emoticon>

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:51:02

polka Apologies, I meant once BF is established you can stop worrying. Obviously with either BF or FF you have to monitor that weight is being gained initially and check for allergic reactions etc.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 14:51:12

So if MN dont know about the advert, where is it?

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 14:51:14

So MN advertising McDonalds is ok?

Cantbelieveitsnotbutter Thu 10-Jan-13 14:51:39

Polkadot it didn't work for my mum, sister or grandmother.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 14:51:55

mumsnet promote everything from nappies to houseswaps maybe they should stop all advertising but tbh that is how the site is run and keeps going

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 14:52:01

mrsjay! grin

FellatioNels0n Thu 10-Jan-13 14:52:17

Socailly irresponsible? Are you serious?

I cannot even be bothered to engage further on this thread.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:52:45

dreaming unfortunately you are wrong about the driving and formula thing. An inspection of the numbers shows that car accidents are way down the list of causes of death for babies under a year old.

I absolutely would join anyone pushing for a ban on alcohol advertising.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 14:52:48

mrsjay!

you are though there is posts all over with me saying what worra said what worra said envy grin

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 14:53:19

McDonalds isn't crack cocaine

There's not reason why it can't be given now and then as a treat to someone who otherwise has a perfectly healthy diet and takes the right amount of exercise.

JustineMumsnet (MNHQ) Thu 10-Jan-13 14:53:36

Hi all,
Thanks for the heads up on this. We do disallow formula milk adverts - not because we are anti-formula feeding per se - we believe in supporting mothers' choices but because follow-on milk is just a cynical way of getting round the ban on advertising of formula milk for babies under six months. So we will look into it and block these ads now. Apologies for the oversight and thanks for the heads up.

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 14:54:13

I just assumed you were a lazy typer! grin

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 14:54:59

I kind of agree that there is no point in boycotting Nestle unless it is part of a wider philosophy

but on the other hand, isn't "not enough" better than "nothing at all"?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:55:01

MNHQ - it is appearing under the most active/ discussions of the day bit for me.

It's a rotation of different adverts but every so often it is an advert for boots that is promoting a baby bundle including a bottle set for newborns and follow milk (and other stuff too).

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 14:55:32

Justine, you kick ass grin

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 14:56:25

Oh! Thanks Justine.

Can I just put in a massive apology for putting this in AIBU

It was really really dumb. I had totally forgotten about site stuff etc.

<never EVER makes it out of chat / AIBU>

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 14:56:42

Justine - grin

I said injured, not killed.

But at any rate, I'm sure formula ranks even lower than car accidents as a cause of death for infants (in the UK).

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 14:58:01

<sigh of relief that MN is still MN>

InNeatCognac Thu 10-Jan-13 14:58:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Forgetfulmog Thu 10-Jan-13 14:59:28

Well I have a question for you lot. Why is there no BF advertising? All we see on tv are Formula adverts of happy babies, but nothing to promote bf & it makes me mad. Ff is big business in the UK, all baby medicine is geared towards ff (those bf mums who have tried to give their baby gaviscon will testify to that!)

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 14:59:35

McDonalds is not crack coccaine grin

Forgetfulmog Thu 10-Jan-13 14:59:43

Op YANBU

sockmuppet Thu 10-Jan-13 14:59:50

The quote came from UNICEF

ENSMUM Thu 10-Jan-13 15:00:41

Totally agree with you OP and please MN HQ appear to support your view too smile

OP was no way suggesting women shouldn't have a choice to formula feed - if no formula companies had adverts for their products people would still know the product exists and be able to look at which brands etc are available in the appropriate areas of the shops.

Follow on milk is not necessary at all, only produced so the companies can get around the advertising ban.

Apologies if this has all been said already above. I have to admit I haven't read through the whole thread, but was astonished by how much criticism and little support the OP was coming under!

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:00:47

But if you go by the op's logic advertising causes one to throw all logic out the window.If one sees an advert from Boots one will instantly reach for the bottle.

Given the fact that the horrendous numbers of children leaving primary school obese are rocketing and children are obviously not just stopping at an odd treat when consuming Mcdonalds( probably not helped by the pushing of the products with free toys) then clearly the above fear of Boots advertising should kind of extend to McDonald's advertising.

Obviously if we go by the logic that we all use our common sense when parenting then the op might seem a little unreasonable particularly when you consider the immense bigger longer lasting damage unhealthy food such as Mcdonalds does to children in this country.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 15:01:31

There may not be any on TV, but there are loads in other places - GP's, hospitals, surestart centres.

Why are there no FF support groups?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:01:40

Dreaming I am pretty confident that FF ranks higher than car crashes. The stats are horrible and I don't think we should go there. I could PM you if you like?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:02:23

sock thanks I will follow that up

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:02:44

Absolute rubbish op.

Forgetfulmog Thu 10-Jan-13 15:03:42

Yes but let's face it, a TV campaign is far more influential than a couple of posters. As for ff support groups, bf can be fucking hard. & you need the support if you're going to succeed

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:04:08

Perhaps the distinction between formula and alcohol advertising is that in one instance you are making a decision for yourself, while on the other you are making it on behalf of someone else? And possibly also because alcohol adverts tend not to claim that their products are super-healthy and offer medical protections?

So Mumsnet is not anti-formula feeding per se

Eh?

If you really support choice, you should not be anti-FF at all

I actually think pulling the ads is not very MN at all. We're not a bunch of idiots needing protecting from the big bad cynical formula companies.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:04:39

I for one would like to see the horrendous stats directly linking formula as a cause of death in infants.

I can't believe people peddle this shit.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:04:46

forget oh we had buses with BF "adverts" on them around here a while back!

But to be honest I am not sure an arms race is the way forward.

As many have said on here it would be better for the people who are already locked into their feeding mode to be left in peace to get on with being parents.

I would prefer no adverts at all....just info at antenatal classes.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 15:04:46

Oh I couldn't agree more, Cognac. They shouldn't have to.

My MWs drummed that into me. The MW running our NHS antenatal classes did too - out of about a dozen of us I think maybe one or two FF (one of whom had twins - I know it's doable but moving to FF after the colustrum stage is pretty understandable if you have more than one). The rest BF for at least a couple of months.

This was 12 years ago.

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 15:05:29

http://www.unicef.org.uk/BabyFriendly/News-and-Research/Research/Breastfeeding-research---An-overview/

Here is the link, which also contains to quote sock mentions, but if you read further it clearly says these studies have been controlled:

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 15:06:45

Also this quote (c&p's from unicef) clearly summarises what meny of us have been saying on this thread:

Breastfeeding may be documented as having a “small protective effect” against certain illnesses. Whilst it is clearly accurate to say that that the risk of not breastfeeding is greater with some conditions than others, what is a small protective effect in one child is likely to have a much more dramatic effect across a whole population.

OP -- thanks but you're right, we don't need to go there with stats. We are probably not going to agree anyway.

Cat98 Thu 10-Jan-13 15:06:57

Sorry for typos

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 15:07:53

BF mothers shouldn't have to worry about intake etc I meant. I'm tired, sorry.

I'm quite certain that knowing this contributed to such a good uptake of BF among my little group.

Fakebook Thu 10-Jan-13 15:08:06

It's FOLLOW ON milk. Normally a child will start cows milk at age 1 as part of their diet.

378 Thu 10-Jan-13 15:08:58

Hey OP didn't want to join the bunfight but Justine just summed up exactly the point of what you were trying to say in your OP I think so you can be relieved that not everyone misinterpreted your OP in the way a lot of pages following did I think.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:09:28

see Justine's post Fakebook

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:11:35

Haven't bothered to read the replies.

Has formula been compared to crack yet? hmm
Don't forget that a bottle of coke is cheaper and babies love it. grin

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:12:08

If you follow guidelines there is no risk what so ever. I want to see respected concrete scientific evidence that directly links formula (and formula only )prepared correctly following guidelines to illnesses.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:12:32

polka and dreaming The rate of deaths from RTA for under 1s is around less than 1/25,000
The rate of deaths from sids for under 1s is around 1/2500.

So child under 1 is 10 times more likely to die from SIDS than an RTA.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:13:57

See the fsid website for evidence that FF increases the risk of SIDS.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:14:45

areyou yes FF has been compared to crack...by the pro-FFers obvs.

Chunkymumma Thu 10-Jan-13 15:15:04

I chose not to BF, it was nothing to do with formula advertising though. It was my NCT groups bf class, totally put me off with all the talk of mastitis, engorgement, leaking nips etc... Yuk! However, I truly do think other people bf is quite lovely.
The support for ff mothers is shit in this country, I think that's awful. The problems caused by ff are sometimes to do with preparing it incorrectly - so why not educate women on how to do this. It's the parents choice how to feed their baby, nobody else's so they should be given as much support as bf mothers, not made to feel like lepers because of their choice.

OlivetheotherReindeer Thu 10-Jan-13 15:16:16

Seriously, MN isn't anti formula feeding , per se..........how about no adds for any breast pumps, breast pads, nipple shields etc.....just to give a balanced view?

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:16:42

Where does the research say SIDS deaths are attributed directly to correctly prepared formula following guidelines and only correctly prepared formula?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:19:18

Sids is uncorrelated with gastroenteritis so I can't imagine that the way you prepare the formula makes any odds...

What fraction of people do you think are NOT following the guidelines?

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:19:43

Oh so we are past that point,OK. Of course it was by those who formula feed,they should have their children taken away from them,because by feeding their babies in public they ate socially irresponsible.

Now if I give my 6month old 8oz of coke will that keep her awake til 9pm cause I hate leaving the pub early?

You can't attribute all SIDS deaths to formula FFS.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:22:37

No-one else has suggested any of that...at least certainly not the people complaining about the advertising.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:22:44

So what exactly is the immense risk from correctly prepared formula in relation to SIDS ie what part of formula causes SIDS?

Also where is the research that directly links formula as a cause of SIDS?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:22:55

indeed not and I haven't dreaming

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:23:19

polka I pmed it to you

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:24:04

Do you give your children soothers ICB?

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:25:06

So what are you saying in relation to correctly prepared formula and SIDS?

TheBrideofMucky Thu 10-Jan-13 15:25:53

I'm sure all new mothers know that formula and bottles exist. Lets not hide them away like they are something to be ashamed of.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:27:20

polka BM and FM are different. They contain different chemicals. The gut of a baby responds differently to them and they are digested at different rates.

Sids is highly correlated with sleeping more deeply and hence anything that causes that. Including being in a smoke filled room or sleeping on your front. FF is also correlated with sleeping more deeply possibly because of the differences listed above.

Most babies are not at all susceptible to SIDS. But for the ones that are susceptible it is important to minimise the things that lead to deeper sleep.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:28:44

Yes one could give formula and a soother to counteract that.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:28:55

areyou erm nope. Why do you ask? Should we be banning them being advertised also?

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:30:07

No soothers are now considered to help in the prevention of SIDS.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:30:42

ahh soothers are preventative for SIDS? Not so much if they are used as projectiles I imagine....

Thanks for the comment about FF being 'less healthy' OP that made me feel great as I feed a bottle of formula to my 16 week old. hmm

And hmm at anyone choosing to FF because of special offers, spend money on formula & bottles or feed breast milk which I'm pretty sure is free?

If MN was heavily advertising gambling I would say it was possibly socially irresponsible but baby milk? Really?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:32:13

I am not suggesting by any stretch that people should make feeding decisions based solely on SIDS stats. There are going to be far more critical personally relevant factors in most cases.

But people were asking for proof that FF can cause illness and hence I provided it.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:33:21

It is on balance less healthy than bf though. Why should that be a secret? confused

threesocksmorgan Thu 10-Jan-13 15:33:29

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

LookBehindYou Thu 10-Jan-13 15:33:55

Yes you are being unreasonable. Formula feeding is an alternative and one that lots of parents need.

lizzieangelbug Thu 10-Jan-13 15:34:16

As a first time mum I wanted nothing more than to breastfeed my dd. But unfortunately it didn't work out due to several reasons. I tried for six weeks and ended up very reluctantly stopping. The guilt I felt and still do is sometimes unbearable. I desperately tried to make it work but didn't get the help I needed in hospital right from the start. I felt totally let down by the NHS. On first night dd wouldn't latch no mater what I did so mw said " well do you just want to give her formula?" I was so exhusted after not sleeping for nearly 3 days I felt I had no choice. After coming home a mw came to check me and dd and I still couldn't get her to latch on mw said "I'd try her with a bottle." after trying to help dd latch on for half an hour. Dd is now 6 months healthy, happy and bright little girl. I'm glad I had formula to feed her because I didn't get help I needed to bf. The mw's are so over streched in my area that they don't have the time to help. And yes I know now theres bf cafes and I even got a nct bf coucillor out but she had to travel so far I felt i couldn't ask her to keep coming out. while its great theres a breastfeeding campaign some of us slip through the net as there isn't the help to back it up.
So please don't let people like me feel like shit with your statistics on how dangerous formula is. It really doesn't help.
Sorry rant over.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:34:22

which bits has OP made up three socks?

ENSMUM Thu 10-Jan-13 15:34:51

olovetheothetreindeer - advertising breast shields etc is likely to sway people more towards Ff than Bf by suggesting they are likely to encounter probems

I suggested that children are more at risk from drunk drivers than from formula.

You said no, because children are more likely to die from SIDS than car accidents.

So presumably, you are attributing SIDS deaths to formula.

According to government figures, nearly 10,000 people a year are killed or injured in road accidents involving alcohol.

Now, I'm sure you have some study showing that maybe possibly potentially there could be 10,000 people a year who suffer some medical harm because they were fed formula during their first six months. But this is much more speculative than the evidence of harm caused by drink driving.

I only raise this comparison because people like the OP tend to always cite 'public health' as their reason for caring so much about this, and yet compared to many other things the public health effects of FF are minimal and/or indirect and don't really justify the hysteria.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:38:51

mrshels presumably the other option was not feeding your 16 week old? I would say you went for the healthy option!!

I can't really imagine after the barrage you get at antenatal appointments that anyone with a baby is actually surprised to read that BF is healthier than FF...or that FF is massively healthier than starving/coke/cocaine/mcD's or even mashed potato...

surely none of this is news to anyone on this thread?

Because it makes out its less healthy in the same way a burger is less healthy than a salad whereas I'm sure the difference isn't as marked.

A lot of FF mothers feel bad enough for not BF without the implication that formula is unhealthy & being told their baby is at higher risk from SIDS. It may be true but I don't think MN is the place to discuss it.

How many of those babies who die of sids also fall into other at risk categories?

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:42:56

"It may be true but I don't think MN is the place to discuss it"

I disagree. I think MN is the perfect place to discuss it. Why on earth wouldn't it be? You can always not click on feeding threads, if you favour the fingers-in-ears approach.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 15:43:03

In my opinion as the SIDS issue is so awful and unproven it's best not spoken about in discussions such as this.

There are guidelines on the FSID website on the myriad of factors which is currently believed to have an influence.

DolomitesDonkey Thu 10-Jan-13 15:44:21

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:44:33

dreaming the study states that FFing doubles the rate of SIDS. So if children under 1 are far more likely to die from sids than a car crash, then those extra cases caused by FF are going to exceed the number that die due to rtas. In part this is because the number of under 1 year olds that die in crashes is very very small.

Once you look at 18 year old boys there is massively more chance that they die due to an RTA than due to anything that happened in their first year of life.

If you make it out of the first year in one piece then the chances of your feeding method making any serious difference to your life is very low.

In other news you are far more likely to have problem in later life if you were exposed to lead as a baby than due to any difference in feeding mode.

Lead is an absolute fucker. In fact it is way more important that you not let your kids play in a room with lead paint than any sort of anti-sids advice.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:44:38

I bf three exclusively and fed the fourth for a week and switched to formula. She is rude with health compared to the others. Bright,inquisitive, happy. I doubt very much this is down to a week of bf.
What is the socio economic breakdown of your SIDS stats?

KoalaTale Thu 10-Jan-13 15:45:46

Yanbu. I dislike the formula companies and all their follow on milk advertising, brand promotion etc. Before dd was born I thought at six months all babies had follow on milk, as its so heavily advertised. It came as a surprise to me that WHO recommend two years of bf, I never see that promoted, just bloody follow on milk on every baby magazine, website etc.

We'll have to agree to disagree then Greensleeves, but I resent the implication that I have my fingers in my ears...I had a choice of FF or starve my child...I don't then want to be told my child is suffering because I couldn't sort BF out. I certainly don't want to hear about SIDS.

StrawberriesTasteLikeLipsDo Thu 10-Jan-13 15:47:05

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:47:21

dol enough with the personal abuse. I have supported several people to move to formula and would never EVER advise or apply pressure to anyone about ANY feeding choice.

I have complained about formula advertising not formula feeding.

I have provided facts to back up why the ban on advertising newborn milk exists as and when it has been demanded by others.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:48:31

areyou I pmed the data. You can see what they did to control for socio economic influences.

Well I still don't agree with your reasoning on this issue, but I agree with you on lead. Terrifying impact and lots of people aren't aware of it.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:49:24

I switched to formula and felt like shit about it too. But it doesn't mean I don't want to know about risk factors, for SIDS or anything else - I'm an adult, I want all the relevant information I can get, even if it worries me.

Interesting that some of those who squawk about not infantilising women by banning formula advertising are those who want us to shut up about the health implications of FF in case we upset someone. Are we big girls or not? You can't have it both ways.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:50:08

If you don't want to know the facts then stop asking for "proof".

This thread should have been very simple.....

And is now going around in circles.

I will leave you all to it.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 15:50:22

Id like to see the study that shows it doubles the risk of SIDS.

And if that's starting to get discussed please ask mn to put a warning in the title as seriously I saw a lot if very upset people on a previous thread on this issue.

It's not fair if people think this is a debate on advertising to walk into this .

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:50:30

and you'll have to do a bit better than shouting "fuck" and "cunt" I'm afraid hmm

Tailtwister Thu 10-Jan-13 15:51:13

From what I understand, the rules on advertising formula are very strict. If you think they are being broken in this case OP, then you should report it.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 15:51:19

I certainly don't put my fingers in my ears. I get it from a reputable source.

I never complained about the advertising.

In my opinion if the choice is between FF or starving your child how does finding out how supposedly 'bad' formula is help at all?

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:52:08

dreaming oh god yes! My DH has been on about this for ages and I have been labelling him a crank....but he is right. When toys get painted in china with whatever is cheapest (lead) then how can you even try and protect yourself?

Twas on the radio the other day that they should consider replacing the soil in nurseries and schools....

It's like asbestos all over again.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:52:54

green grin good luck with that!

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:54:03

I get information from a wide range of sources and am capable of evaluating its reliability, as are most people. MN is a discussion forum - so it is an ideal venue for discussions about all aspects of infant feeding, including the relative health implications of different feeding methods. Trying to suppress that in case people's feelings are hurt is ridiculous.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 15:54:16

Come on its not a MN debate without ending on a fuck or cunt!

KoalaTale Thu 10-Jan-13 15:54:41

How do I know if lead paint has been used?!

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:55:44

Yes,it factors basic s/e. It is still circumstancial.
I will believe it when it says 100% formula will cause xyz.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 15:56:29

okay really last one.

Mrshels There is no point whatsoever worrying about feeding choices after you made them.

The problem is that you cannot have a thread, or an advert, or even a point of information that uniquely addresses only people who have yet to make their choice. I think it is unfair to leave a thread when people have stated it makes no difference how you feed, in case someone is misled by that incorrect information. The unfortunate side effect is that people who have already made the choice / had no choice are also re-exposed to the facts.

If I could find a way to only speak these facts to the pregnant people I would use it - I promise.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 15:56:33

I am sensitised to "fuck" and "cunt" grin

We need to create some new, really shocking obscenities!

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 15:57:30

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 15:57:48

Kaola you can't seriously have believed all babies have to switch at six months. Where did you grow up?

Ariel24 Thu 10-Jan-13 15:58:07

OP I agree with you 100% about the advertising of formula. I don't know why so many people seem to think you were criticising parents who choose to ff, your complaint was about advertising.

Boggler Thu 10-Jan-13 15:58:15

Something that's never pointed out about bf is the high numbers of malnourished and dehydrated newborns readmitted to hospital within 2-3 weeks of being born - my poor dn bring one. My ds was bf and as midwives don't like weighing babies anymore it wasn't spotted that he was basically dying from lack of nutrition. He was blue lighted to hospital at 3 weeks thanks to a locum doctor and was worked on for 4 hours until he was out of danger but it was very close and consultant said 1 hour longer and it would have been too late. The reason for recounting this tale is that shockingly on average one bf baby is readmitted to each hospital in the uk roughly once a week although admittedly most are not quite as sick as my dn. This is never publicised and is proof that bf is not always best and alternative feeding a healthy baby is better than bf when there's not enough supply.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 15:58:32

If your desensitised to cunt we are in trouble. That's the worse word I know!

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 16:00:15

koala you can send off paint samples for testing - google to find people who do that.

If it is a toy, you can kinda rely on anything that is made solely in america/europe etc. but if it says made in china, or parts made in china you cannot be sure. It is the toy seller that has responsibility to check but they don't check every batch and when bits come from 15 sources you can bet they haven't checked them all.

Every so often a toy gets recalled because a part supplier was found to be using paint that had more than the legal max amount of lead.

If you live in an old house with peeling paint I would get it checked out. It is like asbestos in that stripping it is the most dangerious thing to do. So test pain before you redecorate if you have small children around.

There government issues guidelines on this sort of thing if you are worried about how to proceed safely with renovations etc.

Boggler Thu 10-Jan-13 16:00:54

Before I get flamed heres the link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7867686.stm

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:02:26

Yes ICB,in my health clinic their are only bf support posters. You should remove them at once.

ICBINEG Thu 10-Jan-13 16:02:48

ariel thanks...but I honestly do get why people feel that way and I am fucking furious on behalf of every single person who got bombarded with the antenatal guilt barrage and then got dumped to get on with it with inadequate support after the birth.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:02:49

Green sleeves there is nothing we need to know re formula that we don't already know,you'd have to be living on Mars not to know that bf has slight benefits for babies in this country.Considering that most women that do it only do it for 6 months out of a whole childhood the benefits in this country with great formula,equipment and clean water are minuscule.

If parents really want to worry about their dc's health look at what they eat once weaned,their screen time and exercise.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:03:50

Boggled I agree the consultant that treated my daughter said it's nigh on scandalous that it isn't more widely reported.

tompuss Thu 10-Jan-13 16:05:29

Cunt? pah, how about cluntch??

LookBehindYou Thu 10-Jan-13 16:05:41

I am confused as to why you feel able to evaluate information intelligently, yet apparently the rest of us can't so the advertisment shouldn't be shown.

bigkidsdidit Thu 10-Jan-13 16:06:45

This thread is just bizarre

Firstly the straw men being built; criticising formula advertising is no criticising mothers who ff

And secondly for the astonishing number of mumsnetters who alone of all the world are impervious to advertising grin

I agree with you OP

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 16:07:36

ICBINEG you say you have stated facts in response to requests for proof. That isn't what we asked for. We asked for links to studies and statistics so that we can look at them too, and form our own conclusions. I have seen a few posts where you say you've PMd information, which is fine, but you haven't given the rest of us a chance to look at your sources. Stating fact/opinion is not the same as providing proof.

Please provide links to the studies, figures and other information relevant to your arguments to the thread as a whole.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:09:07

I have explained my objection to the adverts below LookBehindYou (appropriate name btw)

The motives and tactics of big commercial formula producers don't bear much relation to those of parents posting information and opinions for discussion with other parents on a parenting forum hmm

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:11:06

Big criticising McDonald's,leapfrog advertising isn't criticising mums who give their kids HappyMeals,screen time then.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 16:11:24

It's weird though. People generally don't seem to care half as much about older children getting fed an awful diet as bf v ff gubbins.

Just a musing there.

LookBehindYou Thu 10-Jan-13 16:12:20

bigskidsdidit to state that ff is less healthy (one of the OP's earlier posts) is a pretty big criticism of parents who ff. To suggest otherwise is messing with semantics.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:14:54

I dunno Pickles I've seen some real humdingers on here about older children's diets too, and some heartbreaking ones by parents of children who won't eat

feeding is so deeply rooted, it's the first things we do for our children and it's incredibly emotive.

Personally I don't think that's a good reason to steer clear of discussing feeding/eating and health though. It needs to be out in the open.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:15:00

Pickled I actually know mothers who feed their kids utter shite that think because they were bf they are healthy.

I actually think the Breast milk as an elixir of life thing has gone too far in this country,I also read somewhere that the cost of malnourished babies from bfing goes widely unreported.

bigkidsdidit Thu 10-Jan-13 16:16:04

But it is less healthy on a population level

It just is

That's why advertising is banned for newborn formula.

Anyway I must cook Tea and not get sucked into this fascinating though it is

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:16:46

But it IS less healthy. It's a fact, not a suggestion. That doesn't mean there aren't particular circumstances in which it's the best or only option

but for those making the choice, it's insane to suggest that we should hush up discussion of the known facts and the range of views for fear of making people feel bad.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:17:57

and LOL at Polkadot scraping the barrell for spurious claims about the evils of BF

must try harder

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:18:21

Not if you stick to guidelines when preparing formula and raise your kids with a healthy diet,non screen stimulation and plenty of exercise.

It's a marathon not a sprint.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 16:19:39

Why i am on here I don't know I'm 35 weeks pregnant! I should be thinking peaceful thoughts grin

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:20:20

There you go it isn't spurious.

My daughter was in scbu for a week we got to know her consultant and other staff well,heard the same old story ie that they were inundated with malnourished breast fed babies.

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 16:20:43

It's weird though. People generally don't seem to care half as much about older children getting fed an awful diet as bf v ff gubbins.

Exactly Pickles

And look how many women are putting their babies and themselves at risk of death and medical conditions, because they choose to conceive while overweight/obese?

I've known people like that who have given birth and then banged on endlessly about 'giving baby the best start in life' because they chose to BF.

Well the baby's life starts in the womb so it's more than a tad hypocritical.

grumpyinthemorning Thu 10-Jan-13 16:21:40

Oh, Pickled, it only gets worse!

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:22:59

"inundated with malnourished bf babies"

are you seriously suggesting that this is common enough to indicate that breastfeeding is less safe than formula feeding? I don't believe even you believe that.

And you know women who stuff their kids with crap safe in the knowledge that their children are mystically protected from harm by their infant breastfeeding?

Bullshit, and you know it. Not even terribly good bullshit.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:23:55

Just as a side point there have been a few threads of late about not enjoying sex or decreased libido and quite a few posters saying they felt that way whilst breastfeeding. Now I'm well aware a thread on mn is not an in depth study but it got me thinking of the downside of bf and how none of it was ever discussed.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 16:24:02

"inundated with malnourished breast fed babies"

Bollocks.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:24:18

Anyhow my kids have nearly had their hour of screen time,off to make them get some exercise and more mentally stimulating.Also gotcto prepare a healthy homemade tea with several of their 5 a day-do I get a medal or is that only reserved for mothers of babies exclusively breast fed until they are 6 months old?

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:24:52

And it wasn't bollocks,I wish it was.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 16:25:50

greensleeves there was a link posted a few pages back regarding malnourished bf babies....

I do agree that some mothers thing breast milk is the magical cute for everything and think it offers life long protection. I've met numptys like this!

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:25:52

Do you want a medal? Why? Do you think that is why women breastfeed?

That post had said more about you than all the other rubbish put together.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:26:08

"to state that ff is less healthy (one of the OP's earlier posts) is a pretty big criticism of parents who ff."

- but it is less healthy hmm

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:26:34

Certainly not saying it's less safe but simply that in this country the risks that do exist aren't discussed or reported enough.If they were my daughter for one wouldn't have ended up in scbu- so said my consultant.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:28:26

PolkaDot I don't think they understand our sense of humour. They obvs weren't breastfed.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:28:43

"inundated with malnourished breast fed babies"

That's just the kind of boobie-trapped tripe that scares would-be breastfeeders.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:29:38

Whilst it may be less healthy,its not unhealthy or wrong.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:29:40

"so said my consultant"

Herin lies the problem. Not every so-called 'health professional' is uber clued up on breastfeeding. In fact, most aren't.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:30:37

"Whilst it may be less healthy,its not unhealthy"

As BF is the biological norm, and formula is 'less healthy' than BF, surely that would make formula 'unhealthy'?

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:33:14

relatively, it is unhealthy

there's no other way to slice it, other than lying

if I let my ds have a milky bar, I know it is higher in fat and sugar than a carrot. I can cope with this knowledge. I don't feel the need to disguise it, twist it or bleat about how unfair it is.

If you FF by choice and are well-informed, then the fact that it is the less healthy option will not come as news to you. If it does - then clearly better information was needed.

Ariel24 Thu 10-Jan-13 16:33:21

oh come on so reduced sex drive is a reason not to breastfeed? I have had no sex drive whilst breastfeeding, doesn't make me want to stop breastfeeding though hmm

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 16:33:24

I didn't want to get drawn into this gunfight, but polka that's the biggest load of rubbish ever.
Malnutrition can occur in breastfed babies aft 6 months when the weening stage is taking place. Before six months it is incredibly rare.

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:33:27

Mashed potato is obvs not as healthy as broccoli but its not unhealthy.

AreYouADirtBurd - in an evolutionary sense that would not be a downside, it would contribute to family spacing which would increase the life chances of the existing children.

Boggler Thu 10-Jan-13 16:33:47

Actually yes more babies are currently admitted to hospital I'll from bf than are due to ff- thats not to say ff is healthier per se but there are risks and they are just not publicised. The reason being that health professionals would rather have an ill baby or two than mums choosing to ff.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7867686.stm

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:34:51

Ariel where did I say that it was a reason to stop?

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:35:01

Exactly far too many midwives are pushing bfing at all costs who really don't understand or keep vigilant enough when there are bfing problems.They have stats and a campaign to keep to.

I was told repeatedly that breast fed babies lose weight,that it's normal and there wasn't a problem- there was,she was dehydrated and malnourished.

Our lovely consultant told us that they had far too many babies admitted due to this and she was angry.

Boggler Thu 10-Jan-13 16:35:07

Girloutnumbered unfortunately it is far from rare it's fairly routine.

Locketjuice Thu 10-Jan-13 16:36:46

What difference does it make, if you cant or don't want to bf which I know plenty of mums that didn't like it I didn't, I hated not knowing what he was getting. I'm no way ashamed of it..either way your going to Be buying formula whether its advertised or not

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 16:36:55

Infants should be exclusively breastfed – i.e. receive only breast milk – for the first six months of life to achieve optimal growth, development and health. "Exclusive breastfeeding" is defined as giving no other food or drink – not even water – except breast milk

www.who.int/features/qa/21/en/index.html

AreYouADurtBirdOrALadyBird Thu 10-Jan-13 16:37:55

Why is it not discussed in ante natal classes then?

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:38:12

Hey ignore all you want,I'm aware my consultants views don't fit into the pro bfing lobby as was she but would just like to point out that pretending it doesn't happen is as hypocritical as getting in a lather over a Boots ad and not a McDonald's ad.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:39:38

but not as hypocritical as trying to stop people discussing the health implications of FF on a parenting forum because it might make you feel guilty hmm

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 16:39:48

Girl what happens when that can't happen though?
There are many other things one should do in life but not everybody does.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:40:19

Errrr because the idea is to get as many mums bfing as possible.You don't exactly get an awful lot of info re fling either-it's utter madness and as a mother of a baby that could easily have been brain damaged because of some crappy right on midwife desperate to push the gov stance on feeding it makes my blood boil.

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 16:43:05

When it can't happen ledkr than ff is a great replacement. All I am trying to point out is that those people on here who seem to think ff is as good as, are wrong. I absolutely know that it's not possible for some mums and I do respect the fact that women have the right to choose. I just dislike it when people suggest that it's the sAme as giving breast milk, it's not.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 16:43:32

Who does that Greensleeves,why on earth would any mother feel guilty re ffing,I certainly don't.I've got 3 über bright kids leading a very healthy,stimulating childhood. The first 6 months is diddly squat out of their 18 years of childhood.

I do many things that aren't the reported ideal daily in parenting and believe me 6 months of formula comes waaaaaay down on the list of things I worry or feel guilty about.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 16:47:00

Two malnourished babies admitted to an average sized hospital a year would be "far too many babies." It's not quite the same as "inundated" though, is it?

If BF (or indeed FF) babies are getting so malnourished and dehydrated that they require hospitalisation then it's down to ignorance, and not down to the method of feeding.

Aren't people told to expect x-number of wet nappies, to keep an eye on their baby's fontanelles etc?

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:47:53

"Mashed potato is obvs not as healthy as broccoli but its not unhealthy."

Depends on the type of mashed potato. If it's powdered, artificial mashed potato then yes it's unhealthy ;)

pigletmania Thu 10-Jan-13 16:48:00

Yabvvvu. Why should mn not do the hmm. Some women express so need bottles

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 16:49:05

Has anyone ever gone into labour in the middle of a bf v ff bunfight?

I'm going for the spot if not!

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 16:49:13

I just assumed you were a lazy typer!

and that too grin

pigletmania Thu 10-Jan-13 16:49:19

Bitters does not mean you are ff our baby

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:51:51

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 16:52:29

pickled I've got towels and hot water wink

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 16:53:27

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

WorraLiberty Thu 10-Jan-13 16:56:28

pickled I've got towels and hot water wink

Excellent, so you can have a long leisurely bath and a cup of tea while she's screaming grin

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 16:57:09

uber bright" kids

spose it is different from gifted grin ach ive an uberbright kid she is 19 and was never BF god she would be a genuis if I did eh

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 16:57:14

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FairyJen Thu 10-Jan-13 16:58:04

Exactly worra grin

What did you think I meant? confused

Absoluteeightiesgirl Thu 10-Jan-13 16:58:56

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 17:03:26

I won't be screaming, apparently I've been hypno birthing!

Now isnt intelligence one of those debatable things that is very definatly influenced by so many things its hard to prove?

Dawndonna Thu 10-Jan-13 17:05:08

As BF is the biological norm, and formula is 'less healthy' than BF, surely that would make formula 'unhealthy'?
Composition/Division logical fallacy.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 17:05:35

It's perfectly possible to acknowledge that there are far greater influences on a child's health and wellbeing over the years than BF or FF in those first six months and still accept that BF is preferable for most babies.

I am still intrigued to know just how many babies are admitted to hospital with malnutrition and dehydration as a result of breastfeeding.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 17:05:46

Aren't we allowed to have bright healthy kids?

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 17:07:35

Aren't people told to expect x-number of wet nappies, to keep an eye on their baby's fontanelles etc?

I was never told that, although support from post natal was poor to say the least.

That said surely common sense comes into it? when DS was ill and struggling to feed dry nappies was one of the alarm bells which led us to A and E

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 17:09:00

I don't think it helps to split hairs over the healthy term.

It's indisputable really that there are additional health benefits. Even if its just a reduction in gastro.

I do think the intelligence side is not as easy to establish?

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:09:44

Some calming smile facts:

* babies who are not breastfed need formula milk. Babies need clean, nourishing, high quality formula (the reason we have regulations about its content and means of production)
* babies who are not getting sufficient breastmilk need i) the breastfeeding fixed or ii) formula
* no one sensible disagrees with this
* no mother, and no mother's mothering, should be judged positively or negatively in the context of breastfeeding/formula feeding
* this issue is separate to the marketing issue, which is primarily an ethical one

If women are so intelligent and savvy and perfectly able to see through advertising and remain unaffected by it, why are they unable to separate these 2 issues?

I think the answer is some are not able to see through advertising (or not in sufficiently huge numbers for it to cease because it's not shifting product) and some are not able to separate the 2 issues too well, either. They see a viewpoint on advertising as some sort of coded comment on them.

Here's another fact:

* it isn't. Honest. It really isn't about you, your children, the life-saving properties of formula, your right to choose how to feed your babies.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 17:10:57

I'd like to know that jenai too.

Also re brain development childhood stimulation was supposed to have the biggest long term impact.

Re powdered mash,it's only unhealthy if it's loaded with salt,fat and sugar. Compared to many foods young kids both bf and ff eat nowadays methinks formula would be one of the healthiest.

TarkaTheOtter Thu 10-Jan-13 17:11:53

YANBU

I am pro ff if that's what the mum wants.

I am very anti ff advertising because it commercialises something that I think should be free from profit motive.

I am also anti the unethical behaviour of formula companies in countries where bf/ff is a life or death decision.

I would prefer that formula was free on prescription. The unnecessary branding of what, nutritionally, is a homogeneous product just increases the price of formula.

Doesn't mean I think ff is poison or ff mothers are bad mothers. Those straw man arguments always come up when this is discussed.. Studies have shown marginal population effects of bf v ff. As a statistician I can't see why social class and education levels are particularly hard to control for, but I haven't read the actual studies themselves. At an individual level it's one of millions of choices we make for our children. At a population level maybe it costs the nhs enough money to make promoting bfing worthwhile.

TarkaTheOtter Thu 10-Jan-13 17:15:25

Also, I think there should be more information available from the nhs on ff. although very few people seem interested in the information they do provide on how to make bottles up correctly if the threads on here are anything to go by

pickled don't you go giving birth before me!

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 17:17:49

grin I feel really peculiar today.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 17:18:04

Tanka a reasonable post,refreshing to see on this subject when you so often see stat twisting and scaremongering.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 17:18:16

Dawndonna - nope. As formula puts a child at increased risk of several negative health implications, it is unhealthy. How could it be anything other than unhealthy?

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 17:20:15

"additional health benefits"

Additional?? hmm But that would assume that FFing is the norm and BFing is just a great optional extra? A bonus.

This is biologically not the case.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 17:21:01

Oh stop splitting hairs man. grin

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:21:25

Jenai, I don't think there are any collected figures about readmissions for dehydration, but there are studies which estimate it. One paper looked at figures from 1998 (quite old now, I know) and says it was 2.5 per 10,000 live births in the UK - yes, probably 1 or 2 times a year for a large hospital with 5000 births.

It might well be higher now, because there is more breastfeeding these days and because babies are discharged after birth sooner.

Whatever....the babies who are readmitted are not breastfeeding well, and this has been missed by the maternity care staff who should be looking out for the signs before readmission is necessary. Breastfeeding that's not going well should be addressed on day 1 or 2, to make sure the baby gets sufficient hydration - usually by hand expressing colostrum if support with positioning and attachment does not fix it.

Jenai I googled the doctor in the BBC article, there are no results published from the latest study but there is an article about a study he did 12 years ago.

adc.bmj.com/content/85/4/318.full

They looked at one region of the UK for the year 1998, and out of 32,015 live births, there were eight readmissions for a type of severe dehydration in exclusively BF infants (or an estimated rate of 22.3 per 10,000 breast-feeding, first-time mothers).

It would be interesting to see the more recent results, given how many more women BF now.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 10-Jan-13 17:22:21

Polkadot - and that is precisely why more support needs to be available for BFing mothers.
Many people these days are trying to BF in isolation, without the support that would have been there historically - mother, aunts, sisters, cousins and friends who had all breastfed and knew how to help a mother get it established successfully.

What is not needed is a misguided HCP or friend rushing up with a bottle in their hand as the solution to all the problems.

Dint you dare! My stitch comes out tomorrow, I should be first grin

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 17:23:42

"I would prefer that formula was free on prescription."

So breastfeeders subsidize formula feeders?

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:24:52

Tarka - NO!! to formula being available on prescription! Mothers should decide without having to persuade a GP (not known for their detailed assessment of infant feeding) they actually need it!

Just have it available, minimal branding, consistently low prices, with easy to follow instructions on making it up, if it is powder.

Some FF mothers seem to see advertising and marketing as validating their decision to use it, and removal of advertising and marketing as some sort of invalidation.

Ah x-post with tiktok smile

It was a rate of 2.5/10,000 for live births in one region of the UK, but the rate goes up to 22.3/10,000 for first-time, breastfeeding mothers.

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:27:00

dreaming are we looking at the same paper? Oddie et all? It's 2.5 per 10,000, not 22.3, isn;t it?

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 17:27:47

"Some FF mothers seem to see advertising and marketing as validating their decision to use it, and removal of advertising and marketing as some sort of invalidation."

Very interesting observation. So along the lines of, "If it were so bad, they wouldn't be allowed to advertise it?"

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:28:11

Ah x posted again! - I see your figures are for 1st bf mothers!

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 17:30:07

I would like formula to be manufactured and controlled by a NFP NHS-run organisation. Free on prescription where there is a demonstrated need, and sold at a reasonable price for those who simply choose it.

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:31:46

I think the validation thing is more subtle than that though I have seen the very words you use written here on MN.

I always say that lack of advertising does not mean something is 'bad' which is why I hate comparisons with guns and alcohol!

Lack of advertising can mean 'the effect of advertising has unintended consequences for people we prefer to protect from its effects'.

It can also mean 'no need to advertise this - everyone knows it exists and where to find it' eg safety pins; coat hangers; washing lines.

specialsubject Thu 10-Jan-13 17:32:36

what advert? I have long since learnt not to notice adverts on web pages, even when they pop up I just close them without registering what they are for.

Formula feeding is a perfectly viable option in a country with drinkable tap water.

tiktok Thu 10-Jan-13 17:33:19

No, greensleeves, I don't like that either! You are still asking GPs or HVs to decide which babies 'deserve' to have it, with the risk that distressed mothers have to beg sad

Leave it up to mothers to decide.

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 17:33:50

How is a "demonstrated need" established though? at what point is it deemed they NEED formula?

I think that one low cost formula is a much better idea (although it will never happen) but you can't get into a system where medics are trying to decide who NEEDS it as that need could fall on many levels. The only time it should be free is if a baby needs a hypoallergenic formula.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 17:44:27

tiktok and dreaming - it would be interesting to have more uptodate figures, wouldn't it. I had my one and only 12 years ago; I had plenty of support, I was told about fontanelles and wet nappies, I was really, really well looked after.

It seems that these days postnatal care is sadly lacking, and antenatal education too, if babies are indeed being admitted sp often for malnutriion/dehydration.

I've been told that new mothers don't even get the Birth - Five book any more - is that true? I thought that was a fantastic resource and probably worth its weight in gold.

tiktok I've been on threads with you before and I'm always the one saying "it's only food" ("to which you respond "no it's not!" wink ) but this time, I'm quite taken aback by some of the arguments against breastfeeding.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 17:47:33

Alibi nobody has disagreed with the need for support- a hcp rushing up with a bottle,I wish,I had to beg for formula on my ward(although interestingly it was free flowing once she was on scbu and then moved onto a ward). My midwife suggested just about everything bar the one thing my dd needed which was a bottle of formula at regular intervals alongside her paltry amounts of bm.

Ironic thing is if she hadn't been so formula phobic I might have bf for longer.Ill babies,periods in hospital and severe stress and worry don't exactly lead to successful bfing.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 17:51:42

OK tiktok, you don't like it!

I still think it makes sense though, nutritionally and economically. There is a difference between a choice and a medical necessity.

LookBehindYou Thu 10-Jan-13 17:51:50

Jenai babies being submitted for dehydration and malnutrition is nothing new.

Greensleeves that's a terrible idea. And not of benefit to babies.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 17:53:40

Nobody would have to "beg", because decent quality, cheap formula would be available to everyone at considerably lower prices than it currently is.

Well it's free for those on income support anyway

TarkaTheOtter Thu 10-Jan-13 17:58:32

Yes, actually I didn't think about GPs/hv being gatekeepers if it were prescription only. Yy to mothers choosing and not having to persuade or explain why.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 18:00:40

I got soya formula on prescription when ds2 was ill. If I had wanted to feed him soya milk as a lifestyle choice I would have had to buy my own.

Only difference is that I had to buy ridiculously overpriced commercially produced stuff.

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 18:01:58

Its free if you are on nome support?! I never knew that.....

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 18:02:34

Income support! Not nome support!

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 18:02:54

Agree would be better low cost. Some GPs would be arses over it if you had to "prove" medical need.

Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 18:03:22

Yes, I am on gnome support [steiner emoticon] grin

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 18:03:52

I just got birth to five btw.

Yep they stock it at the gp practice where I used to work. People just hand over their milk tokens. I'm not sure if you can hand them in to supermarkets now though?

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 18:06:10

Plus if I get the same appalling level of help with bf this time I'm getting video evidence for you tiktok.

As well as making a complaint.

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 18:10:17

Arf, Green grin

I found the support wasn't bad at all last time, except for one of the hcps on nicu. I think she was just crap full stop though

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 18:11:49

With my first son, there we loads of staff in the maternity ward to help with breastfeeding.... So I would just keep buzzing and they would come and help. With DS2 there was no one, in my little cubicle of four I was the only one till breastfeeding in the morning. No support at all. Very sad. Cut backs again I suppose.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 18:12:51

Mine was incredible, for all the wrong reasons. I did get a three cocking week stay though so they all had plenty of time to be crap.

Hope it's changed for the better now!

Sirzy Thu 10-Jan-13 18:13:06

If your on income support (or working tax credits I think?) you get £7 ish a week in healthy start vouchers for under 1s and half that for 1-5 year olds.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 18:18:20

I think maternity services have been cut dramatically I have a nearly 20 yr old and even though I didnt BF in the end I did try and there was loads of support in the ward now mums are turfed out straight after I didnt BF dd2 at all she was in scbu I couldve expressed the offered , but now new mums are turfed out as soon as they give birth, Im not saying women should stay in hospital but i do think a day or so for some support would do them good

MammytoM Thu 10-Jan-13 18:18:37

Breast feeding isn't for everyone - some cannot do it and some do not want to. Breast feeding is promoted so formula feeding should also be allowed to be promoted - it does say on all formula tubs that basically breast is best. I switched to formula feeding because I couldn't breast feed not because I saw a formula advert. I've never heard of formula feeding doing a baby any harm

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 18:19:49

When my mil was on hospital they stayed a week and the midwives leg them all sunbathe outside and gave them a shout if the baby woke up.

grin

I was in for 3 weeks last time, it was the most miserable time I've ever had

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 18:27:23

Why should formula be promoted, Mammy? It's not like an election with sides*, and where each has the right to the same amount of airspace for their party political broadcasts confused

*Although you'd think it was sometimes on boards link MN grin

JenaiMorris Thu 10-Jan-13 18:29:13

There is a cottage hospital in my area where women didn't have to leave until BF had been established (I assume there was some kind of limit - 6 months would be pushing it!). This was going on 12 years ago, but I have no idea what the situation is now.

WinkyWinkola Thu 10-Jan-13 18:29:16

MammytoM, formula feed is associated with risks that are not associated with breast feeding.

Formula milk has been promoted with a lot of truth stretching in the past. Formula companies have vast advertising budgets. Breast feeding has declined a lot.

But as you say, each to their own as long as we get the chance to be educated about both ways of feeding our babies.

MarianneM Thu 10-Jan-13 18:48:03

I don't think they're trying to persuade anyone to FF, I think they're promoting it to help those who choose not to or are unable to BF. Why is that wrong? They don't say 'This is the better way to feed your child!!', they just make women aware that the other option is there and shouldn't be something to be ashamed of.

Are you serious? You think Nestle & co are advertising just for those who are unable to BF, "just to make women aware that the other option is there"?

How unbelievably naive people are about advertising! Do you think advertising would be one of the most lucrative industries around if it didn't affect people's choices?

Advertising creates needs that were not there before (not referring to formula milk). Advertising formula, even while calling it "follow-on milk" is bad IMO - why do you think the vast majority of mothers in Britain FF? Because of effective formula advertising since the 1960s, that's why.

And for the poster who said that their children like follow-on milk "but won't drink cow's milk", formula milk is cow's milk.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 18:52:48

But the initial thread was about advertising promoting ff and having done both ff and bf I can't imagine that has any impact whatsoever on a woman's decision how to feed and can only be beneficial for those who have to or choose to ff.
I bf all my eldest but then unfortunately couldn't the two youngest.
I felt a bit lost trying to find out about ff because of lack of information and even the feeding specialist I saw for dd2 couldn't give much guidance due to breast is best policies.
Nobody disputes that breast milk is the best for a baby but that doesn't mean formula is bad or harmful just not as good.
If you do formula feed then surely an educated informed approach is the best thing and not knowing sod all because there is so little information or choice widely available.

MarianneM Thu 10-Jan-13 18:55:30

an educated informed approach

Given to you by a company that is trying to sell you a product?

But ledkr that is what people are saying.

Information - real, factual, unbiased information - on formula should be widely available so that parents can make informed decisions.

Advertising does not provide much in the way of facts or comparisons, and is not exactly unbiased.

Parents in the position you were in deserve better than promotion of various very similar products with pseudo-scientific claims. That doesn't help anyone make an informed choice.

SirBoobAlot Thu 10-Jan-13 19:00:32

Formula companies should not be allowed to advertise full stop.

Everyone knows there is an alternative to breastfeeding, seeing as the majority of babies in the UK are formula fed.

Follow-on milk is also an utter con, and only exists for these bloody companies to get around the WHO guidelines prohibiting them from advertising first stage formula.

Pigsmummy Thu 10-Jan-13 19:01:52

YABU, midwives, hv's and GP's are being encouraged to be more understanding towards new Mums who can't/won't breastfeed as such negative pressure on non breast feeding mothers has been cited to contribute to PND. We all know that these products exsist so why can't they advertise just like any other product?

Take for example what I said upthread about Aptamil and their much-trumpeted 'IMMUNOFORTIS'.

What exactly is it? Where is it derived from? What does it do? What other effects might it have? Is it vegetarian? Does it contain allergens? is it genetically modified? Is it in other formulas under a different made up name? How was it tested and did those tests prove a measurable benefit?

I'd want to know all of that and more before choosing to feed something to a tiny baby, but as things stands, all you get from the company is a hazy blue glow around a few babies and some psuedo-science about internal defences. That's not much to go on and it certainly isn't very factual or helpful when trying to make a choice.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 19:05:26

marrisnne re read my post. I could get no info on it even from non advertisements and I would like to read advertisements on the different bottles and sterilisers the same as when I breast fed I looked at ads for pumps pads and nursing bras.
Did you all buy your prams based on non promotional material?

NolittleBuddahsorTigerMomshere Thu 10-Jan-13 19:07:22

YABU- MN is for all parents/ future parents BF or not!

MarianneM Thu 10-Jan-13 19:08:13

I didn't have a pram grin

I had a hand-me-down BabyBjorn.

FWIW I see very little advertising, we don't have a TV.

MammytoM Thu 10-Jan-13 19:09:21

Why shouldn't formula be advertised? Yes we all know that breast is best but some people can't or just don't want to...if formula was harmful then I would see why it shouldn't be advertised but loads of babies are formula fed and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them at all. Just because 'breast is best' it doesn't mean that formula shouldn't be seen on tv or other forms of advertising. Breast feeding is not for everyone, each to their own smile

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 19:17:27

Broccoli is better than crisps but you can still advertise crisps. It's not a stupid comparison because the food children and adults eat later has a far greater bearing on their lifelong health.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 19:19:13

marrianne sorry the whole post wasn't aimed at you but my point is a lot of what we purchase in life we learn about from ads so why shouldn't someone who cannot feed be able to see ads about something that they need to purchase.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 10-Jan-13 19:41:08

I don't like or agree about the way formula is described as close to breastmilk as it is not. I see what the op is saying. Formula is not like Breast milk and shouldn't be advertised as such. I'm not sure about the advertising of formula - not the way it is done.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 19:51:14

Infant formula advertising was banned because it was decided that women shouldn't be exposed to commercial pressure about such an important topic as feeding their baby.

So the companies invented follow on formula in order to maintain the high public profile of their brand.

If mumsnet doesn't support the advertising of newborn formula they shouldn't support the advertising of follow on formula.

"Broccoli is better than crisps but you can still advertise crisps.

If crisps were the sole food of the majority of UK children (like formula is of children under 6 months) then I would fully support a ban on advertising them.

I am FULLY for all mothers having information about bottlefeeding and formula.

But this information should come from an impartial source.

IE - they shouldn't be reliant on COMMERCIAL MARKETING in making a choice as important as their child's sole nutritional intake for the first six months of life.

IceNoSlice Thu 10-Jan-13 19:52:17

Sorry if I'm jumping in, only made it to page 6! But thought I'd throw my hat in...

I am EBF DC1 at the moment. I express so that my co-parent, DH, can feed DS when I'm not there. If bottles are so bad (and a ban on advertising bottles implies this) then how can we possibly have anything close to gender equality when it comes to caring for little babies?

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 19:55:54

Oh, and the country with the highest rates of breastfeeding in the developed world? Norway.

98% of mums leave hospital breastfeeding in Norway.

And Norway has only two companies who are allowed to market baby milk - these companies do not freely promote their products as they do in the UK. This has been the case since the 1980's.

I think that's a red herring tbh IceNoSlice.

I don't think my partner needed to bottle feed our DC to be an equal parent. By all means do so if it is what suits you, but really, its not essential for gender equality.

cocoachannel Thu 10-Jan-13 19:59:37

Please take this post in the manner it was intended TikTok but how do you get alerted to all bf/ff threads? It's great that you are here and come and talk facts and experience but I've often wondered if a siren goes off or if MNHQ send you a carrier pigeon wink ?

Sorry, unnecessary diversion. As you were.

'Equal' doesn't have to mean 'the same'.

I've got the breasts, I do the breastfeeding. My partner supported me in every way he could and he is very much an equal parent despite having never given our 2.4 yr old a bottle. He'd probably be rather annoyed at an insinuation that he isn't!

Of course, if you want to express or use formula so that another adult can share the feeding of your baby that is a perfectly valid choice. But its absolutely not an essential part of being an equal parent.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:00:40

Ice - bottles are not 'bad'.

Breastfeeding is very low profile in the UK except within the NHS. In commercial materials aimed at parents it's pretty much invisible. It's invisible in in mainstream media and in public life.

For the welfare of babies we need to stop thrusting bottles and formula in people's faces. For some women that's all they know. They see bottles and formula everywhere - including page after page after page of advertising in magazines.

As for equality - the majority of breastfeeding mothers around the world don't have paid maternity leave and have to work and share the care of their children. This has been the case since the dawn of time. I went back to work when my first was 5 weeks old, and worked after having both my last two children. Somehow they thrived without bottles and formula. It is possible. It is possible to be a wonderful, committed dad without having to be involved in bottle feeding your child.

IceNoSlice Thu 10-Jan-13 20:03:34

But I have to be on hand. He couldn't have DS in his sole care for longer than 2.5 hours, whereas I could have him for days and days (well, forever really).

But where does that leave women at the moment?

If you ask for help with FF at the hospital or from other HCPs, you're told that they're not allowed to discuss formula specifics with you, because breast is best.

If you don't agree with formula adverts, where do you think women should get this information?

And if you think it should be okay for midwives and HVs to explain all about formula, isn't this just as undermining of BF as adverts would be? Perhaps even more, given it's midwives, not big corporations giving the information?

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:04:21

I was totes going to breast feed, but Aptamil sent me the sweetest cuddly polar bear through the post, so after that I thought, "ahhh fuck it. it's formula for you DS. My tits never sent me a bear"

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:04:29

I love the weird assumption here that adverts tell you what you need to know about a product.

This idea that adverts help parents make informed decisions about how they feed their babies. hmm

I bet most people who bottlefeed spend more time researching what buggy to buy than they do their child's sole source of nutrition for the first six months of life.

I think it shows just how in thrall people are to branded products that they're so uncynical, and so TRUSTING of these companies.

catwomanlikesmeatballs Thu 10-Jan-13 20:06:03

Why are you so obsessed with banning everything related to ff? Nobody's stopping you from shoving bf propaganda down women's throats. Mothers who ff need information on the products available, their needs (and their babies) are more important than your personal ideology. All the preaching in the world won't feed a starving baby whose mother can't breastfeed them for whatever reason.

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:06:08

I bet most people who bottlefeed spend more time researching what buggy to buy than they do their child's sole source of nutrition for the first six months of life.

Did you mean to sound so twuntish?

catgirl grin

cocoachannel Thu 10-Jan-13 20:09:30

Shag I may be misreading your post but are you saying that you did not use bottles but were able to return to work when your babies were weeks old. How did this work in practice? Not sure my boss or clients would appreciate me nipping home and the hour long round trip would make it tricky. Also as I breastfed on demand I may have had to have the equivalent of a bat signal when DD needed feeding.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:09:39

loads of babies are formula fed and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them at all

Source?

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:10:37

I was totes going to breast feed, but Aptamil sent me the sweetest cuddly polar bear through the post, so after that I thought, "ahhh fuck it. it's formula for you DS. My tits never sent me a bear"

I bloody love you cat grin

MorrisZapp Thu 10-Jan-13 20:10:47

Twunt-tastic.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:11:44

I bet most people who bottlefeed spend more time researching what buggy to buy than they do their child's sole source of nutrition for the first six months of life.

Eh what are you saying confused

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:12:10

I rather love you too MrsJay smile

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:13:23

"I was totes going to breast feed, but Aptamil sent me the sweetest cuddly polar bear through the post, so after that I thought, "ahhh fuck it. it's formula for you DS. My tits never sent me a bear"

I suspect it actually goes like this: people want to breastfeed but find it emotionally and sometimes physically challenging. But hey, ho - everywhere they look they see advertising for formula and babies being bottlefed. They can sign up for clubs run by baby milk companies, phone helplines run by these companies, watch programmes on tv sponsored by these companies, and it makes the decision to stop breastfeeding seem absolutely emotionally safe and logical and normal. Babies and bottles go together like a horse and cart. Like bread and butter. And it's not enough that you rarely see babies being breastfed (even on programs like OBEM). The companies have to make sure that they SATURATE parenting magazines with advertising for their products.

Bottlefeeding is completely normalised in the UK in terms of being highly visible in cultural terms (outside of NHS health promotion campaigns). Breastfeeding is largely invisible and is marginalised in a social sense. Formula companies would like to keep things this way.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:13:33

Bit patronising and massively judgey shagmund
I cannot breast feed due to having my breasts removed for cancer at aged 27.
I can assure you it broke my heart not to bf but in the absence of tits I did in fact need to research different formulas, bottles and sterilisers which I found very difficult a dc when dd2 was born with a cleft palate looking at different types of bottles was highly important.
What a very rude thing to say. Shame on you.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:14:28

"I bet most people who bottlefeed spend more time researching what buggy to buy than they do their child's sole source of nutrition for the first six months of life.

Eh what are you saying"

I'm saying that people spend more time researching what buggy to buy than how to feed their baby.

FutTheShuckUp Thu 10-Jan-13 20:14:42

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catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:15:25

and it makes the decision to stop breastfeeding seem absolutely emotionally safe and logical and normal

Good.

Although I've met a lot of women who found the "decision" to stop breast feeding extremely hard and distressing.

Which is a fucking shame IMO.

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 20:15:39

Shagmund for gods sake why have you got to come out with bollarks like that comment about pram research?

I don't even bother reading your posts after that to be honest.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:16:01

"looking at different types of bottles was highly important.
What a very rude thing to say. Shame on you."

If you can't breastfeed you shouldn't be reliant on biased information about the products you need to use to feed your baby.

Adverting is advertising. Not impartial information.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:17:20

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PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:09:39

loads of babies are formula fed and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them at all

Source?

^THIS totally sums up the ridiculousness of these threads.

Source! Are you for real? Um, the millions of people who were FF and are totally fine? Jayzus.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:19:01

What should I rely on then because the professionals won't talk Bout it either. I will deem my information from where I see fit. That I'd none of your bloody business.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:19:09

Pickled - don't read my posts.

I don't care.

It's true that most people don't do much research into what products to buy to feed their baby on.

And they can't do it because the information doesn't exist. There is no impartial, independent research which compares the different brands of milk to see which ones are best tolerated by babies.

So you are reliant on anecdotal information and advertising.

I suspect that most people wouldn't buy a buggy without reading multiple reviews, possibly looking at a WHICH guide on buggy performance, safety, comfort and durability.

How did you choose which brand of formula to buy?

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:21:11

There is no impartial, independent research which compares the different brands of milk to see which ones are best tolerated by babies.

What I did (and I suspect this is so left field and crazy that no one out there will have thought of it) was see which one my baby tolerated best

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 20:22:31

I guess people have to be passionate about something but it amazes me that some are so offended by women having to or deciding to formula feed. It's really not a big deal, the health outcomes are virtually identical, and it's a free society to make such choices.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:22:49

any time I read these sorts of debates i always think the breastfeeding dictators advocates think that all formula fed children are snotty nosed and feeble little waifs grin

JingleUpTheHighway Thu 10-Jan-13 20:22:58

Women are not stupid ....

If you have decided to breast feed , a picture of a few bottles is hardly going to change your mind ? hmm

Formula feeding isn't some dirty little taboo !

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 20:23:20

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ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:23:33

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MammytoM Thu 10-Jan-13 20:23:33

Agree that all the ff babies who are fine are evidence enough.
If only our tits really did give us bears lol

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:24:10

What I did (and I suspect this is so left field and crazy that no one out there will have thought of it) was see which one my baby tolerated best

thats a bit thinking out the box that trying on your own to see what works you should market that idea wink

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:26:00

bear

biscuit biscuit

FirstTimeForEverything Thu 10-Jan-13 20:27:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:27:15

aww the boobie bear

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:27:41

Please take this post in the manner it was intended TikTok but how do you get alerted to all bf/ff threads? It's great that you are here and come and talk facts and experience but I've often wondered if a siren goes off or if MNHQ send you a carrier pigeon

Tell me too.

mrsj grin ditto!!!

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:28:39

"What I did (and I suspect this is so left field and crazy that no one out there will have thought of it) was see which one my baby tolerated best"

Luckily for your baby then the first one you tried didn't result in vomiting or constipation. I'm glad I breastfed and didn't have to embark on that sort of experiment with a newborn.

And given that some of these formulas have novel ingredients which are supposed to promote immunity, and brain and eye development - it's quite important surely to have some idea about whether these claims have scientific validity isn't it? Wouldn't you want to optimise your baby's development in these areas?

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 20:29:46

I think some of you are missing the massive difference between those mums who want to breastfeed and can't and those who don't try, just buy bottles and don't think anything of it.

Arthurfowlersallotment Thu 10-Jan-13 20:30:04

YABU to park your 4x4 in a disabled bay to bottle feed fruit shoot to your DC while DH earns £8m a year.

Oh sorry, my Mumsnet-o-matic went crazy there.

TwoIfBySea Thu 10-Jan-13 20:30:07

It is socially irresponsible not to inform people of their options and if, like me, breast feeding fails for whatever reason why should we not be able to make a choice.

The fact that breastfeeding is so heavily promoted to the point where bottle feeding is seen as a pariah is what the problem is. Yes breast is best but dictating to people is not.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:31:04

"I'm glad I breastfed" yes we can tell grin

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 20:31:16

The research shows more ff babies go to hospital with tummy trouble and that's about it. It's a small number of babies either way.

The rest of the research is pretty piss poor but I'm sure there was already a research war upthread.

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:31:24

Luckily for your baby then the first one you tried didn't result in vomiting or constipation

It did actually

So we tried another one

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 20:31:42

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mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:31:56

The fact that breastfeeding is so heavily promoted to the point where bottle feeding is seen as a pariah is what the problem is. Yes breast is best but dictating to people is not.

^ ^ this

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:33:37

i think some of you are missing the massive difference between those mums who want to breastfeed and can't and those who don't try, just buy bottles and don't think anything of it.

Not missing it no just not bothered because its none of my business.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:34:41

"It is socially irresponsible not to inform people of their options and if, like me, breast feeding fails for whatever reason why should we not be able to make a choice."

It's not socially responsible to allow a situation where women are reliant on ADVERTISING when it comes to making a decision as important as this.

"The fact that breastfeeding is so heavily promoted to the point where bottle feeding is seen as a pariah is what the problem is"

OFFS - 98% of UK babies have formula by the end of their first year!

Formula feeding is the way the majority of babies over 6 weeks in the UK are fed.

Millions and millions and millions of pounds is spent on formula marketing. VASTLY more than is spent on breastfeeding promotion.

Stop squealing about ff mothers being victimised. They're not. They're in the majority and NOBODY puts any barriers in the way of them choosing to ff their baby if this is what they want to do. If only we could say the same for breastfeeding.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:35:21

How come if Breast milk is so good for the tummy loads of bf babies stil have reflux?

AngryGnome Thu 10-Jan-13 20:37:03

I haven't managed to read all the pages of this thread, so apologies if I am repeating something that has been said before, but in my experience it is HCPs who have Far greater influence than advertising in women's decisions to bf or ff.

Hospitals usually encourage bf, and quite rightly so. However, what they frequently seem to lack are the resources to support women to bf. I have heard a lot of women, in real life and here on mn, say that they really wanted to bf, were told that they they should by midwives/HV etc, but then there is no follow up. I was able to bf my ds because I had a lot of help from a community nursery nurse that my HV arranged for me. My SIL desperately wanted to bf, but was told at the hospital that although breast is best, they didnt have time to help every new mother learn to breastfeed so she just had to get on with it. Unsurprisingly, she ran into difficulties and ended up ff. She got no support at all from the hospital on how to do this safely.

Advertising helped her to choose which brand which formula she used, but it was the lack of breastfeeding support that led her to ff in the first place.

So rather than attack advertising - which going by the evidence on this thread is not helpful or supportive to women making difficult choices about how to feed their children- would it not be better to actively work together to call for more resources to support women who bf?

JingleUpTheHighway Thu 10-Jan-13 20:37:09

For the welfare of babies we need to stop thrusting bottles and formula in people's faces. For some women that's all they know. They see bottles and formula everywhere - including page after page after page of advertising in magazines.

Gees! How patronising to all woman kind !

I'm sure all women know they have a choice to bottle or breast feed whether advertising is in their face or not ! hmm

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:37:15

I never found society put any barriers in the way of me breastfeeding.

No, I don't want to optimise my baby. He's not an iphone.

This delusion that each individual decision we make will somehow determine our child's fate is the curse of modern parenting.

TarkaTheOtter Thu 10-Jan-13 20:38:58

In real life I see no one breastfeeding on tv, no one breastfeeding in films, none of my friends or family breastfed past a few months if at all. They regularly ask me when I am going to quit. Told me that my baby couldnt possibly be getting enough milk because she couldn't go three hours between feeds.

Before I got pregnant I had never seen someone breast feeding their baby except a baby sized shape under a cover or scarf. Now I breastfeed my 11 month old I'm told its weird and that she needs to be on bottles or she'll still want to feed at 5.

But on MN it's breastfeeding that's forced down everyone's throats?

I don't care how anyone else feeds their babies, I'd just like breastfeeding to be a little more normalised so people stop giving me grief about how I feed mine. Not judgy looks, or tuts but actual comments.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:39:28

My baby may not be nutritionally superior

No baby is 'nutritionally superior'. Breastfeeding is just the normal way to feed a baby. So what's your point?

Source! Are you for real? Um, the millions of people who were FF and are totally fine? Jayzus.

Not really. The long-term effects of not being breastfed are only beginning to be understood. Blood pressure, cholesterol levels, obesity, allergies, diabetes and academic performance are all starting to be linked with how we were fed as babies. We have more vision problems, intestinal problems, colds and flu, dental problems, heart problems, and cancer than we need to.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:40:22

Because reflux is caused by a weak valve at the inlet to the stomach.

However, breastfed babies with GER tend to have it less severely than had they been bottlefed, because breastmilk empties from the stomach quicker than formula (which is less easily digested).

CheeseStrawWars Thu 10-Jan-13 20:42:03

I think, rather than banning FF advertising, banning "breasts are funbags for men" style advertising would be more useful.

FirstTimeForEverything Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:02

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MorrisZapp Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:02

Shagmund, that is simply untrue. I live in a posh part of town, am university educated, older first time mum. Not one mother in my family or peer group ff. I felt absolutely awful when I made the choice to FF at 12 weeks - not for my ds who thrived on ff, but because it just isn't the done thing round here.

You could say that nobody stopped me from ff,you'd be right. But nobody is stopping anyone from bf either, and where I live anyway, it's promoted and supported exclusively. I felt huge pressure to bf.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:37

Yawn

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:55

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PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 20:43:56

That's my experience Morris.

Totally.

Depends on where you live I would imagine.

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 20:44:33

I like your thinking cheese!

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:45:00

"I'm sure all women know they have a choice to bottle or breast feed whether advertising is in their face or not"

Of course they do.

Advertising changes the way people FEEL about those choices.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:45:15

There is very little difference between them

So the WHO must be smacked off its face to suggest massive differences between breast milk (nature made) and formula (artificial). Whatevs.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:45:58

prettuhairclips my point was relevant to my whole post so quoting little snippets won't make sense.

Picture this. My first me appointment.
"How are you planning to feed?"
"We'll I've had a mastectomy so formula I guess"
MW looks uncomfortable.
"Maybe ill refer you to the bf counsellor just in case"
Dh " what? In case they grow back"
That is how extreme things have become.
When dd was born with a cleft I had to wait for the cleft team to come as the mw "couldn't advise on ff"
No barriers eh?

pumpkinsweetieMasPudding Thu 10-Jan-13 20:47:07

Cheesegrinnow that should be up for debate

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 20:47:23

Pretty hair clips that might settle the matter over health, if it were true but the vast bulk of that research shows statistically insignificant differences, has been contradicted by other studies or has been found to be inconclusive.

Meanwhile we actually know for a fact that people get fat because they eat too much and don't exercise, not because they were ff. Next we'll have global warming blamed on formula.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:48:07

How come if Breast milk is so good for the tummy loads of bf babies stil have reflux?

That reflux is statistically likely to have been more severe if the baby was FF. Think about it, not smoking doesn't guarantee that you won't get lung cancer, but it's a great place to start.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 10-Jan-13 20:48:16

Morris

Me too

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:49:40

"Shagmund, that is simply untrue. I live in a posh part of town, am university educated, older first time mum. Not one mother in my family or peer group ff. I felt absolutely awful when I made the choice to FF at 12 weeks - not for my ds who thrived on ff, but because it just isn't the done thing round here. "

Why did you feel awful if you knew you were making the right choice for your child?

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 20:50:59

The WHO focuses it's concern on areas where an upset stomach can be a major factor in infant mortality. Where clean water and sterile conditions are rare. Where people cannot readily afford or access sufficient formula to ensure required levels of nutrition and where the contraceptive protection it offers is the only avaliable source to women who may be harmed by yet another pregancy

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 20:51:32

If you do have a reflux baby, it's a sight easier to treat it with gaviscon or ranitidine in their bottles!

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:51:50

"Meanwhile we actually know for a fact that people get fat because they eat too much and don't exercise, not because they were ff."

Do we?

Thank you for that simple simplistic summary of hundreds of research papers on this complex subject. hmm

JamieandtheMagicTorch Thu 10-Jan-13 20:52:47

Shag

Why did she feel awful?

Probably because of all the pro bf advertising. Ironically.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 20:54:33

And obsessed health professionals as described in my previous post.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 20:54:55

oh for fuck sake ledkr shock the breastfeed councillor !

MarianneM Thu 10-Jan-13 20:56:25

pro bf advertising

Can someone point out where this can be found?

smilesmile

Pigsmummy Thu 10-Jan-13 20:57:14

Shagmund I also like the Polar bear

DexterAddict Thu 10-Jan-13 20:57:16

ledkr in my dc3s case reflux was caused by the valve at the top of his stomach being immature so it didn't work properly and milk was regurgitated as a result. I thought this was the case generally with reflux but dont know for sure smile

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 20:57:25

Shagmund, you clearly have looked at some of the research. The proof that health is significantly affected by either form of feeding simply isn't there. I think it's great you want to promote breastfeeding, but I don't think you need to overstate the risks if someone doesn't want to or can't.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 20:57:58

catgirl - I'm sitting here looking at a midwifery journal (Practicing Midwife - 2012), which puts the cost of babies in the UK not being breastfed at many, many millions of pounds.

Just one example:

If half of those mothers who don't currently breastfeed, were to do a total of 18 months of lifetime breastfeeding (so about 6 - 9 months per child) then there would be 865 fewer cases of breast cancer every year.

If 45% of babies were breastfed for four months, and if 75% of babies were dischared from neonatal units breastfeeding each year there would be
3,285 fewer babies hospitals with gastric illness, and 10, 637 fewer GP consultations. 5,916 fewer babies hospitalised with respitory illness and 22,248 fewer GP constulations, 21,045 fewer ear infection GP visits, 361 fewer cases of the potentially fatal disease NEC.

These are UNICEF figures from the UK.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 20:58:32
IShallCallYouSquishy Thu 10-Jan-13 20:59:25

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PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 20:59:39

Errr well Who certainly think so Shag.

You might want to read their 10 facts on obesity the key one being the cause which is dietary intake in relation to activity.

<do people still not know what causes obesity> grin

On a serious not this blatant scaremongering and stat twisting is just utterly pitiful and rather unpleasant tbf.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 21:00:17

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chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 21:01:48

Those projections are a joke, based on very weak data.

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 21:01:55

Thanks shag and hairclips thats interesting.

ledkr Thu 10-Jan-13 21:02:55

Haha I bf three of mine for over a year each from 17-24 then had aggressive breast cancer at 27 so forgive me for not taking much notice of statistics grin
If you have underlying breast ca then bf can actually accelerate it as well.

Shagmundfreud Thu 10-Jan-13 21:03:31

Chandelina - I'm reasonably happy to go with UNICEF and NHS evidence on this subject.

I like it that bodies of experts in these organisations - midwives, doctors, scientists, who have specific training in assessing and understanding research across a broad field, review evidence from a wide range of sources and come to a conclusion.

I think it's much more reasonable to do this than pick individual papers, hastily read the abstracts and present them as concrete FACTS in threads like this.

MarianneM Thu 10-Jan-13 21:06:15

Oh PrettyHairClips - none of the "adverts" are from the UK!

Bless you!

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 21:06:59

Your lovely rather paltry American link by somebody I've never heard of acknowledged the need for caution re obesity due to lifestyle(no shit Sherlock),said sids weren't directly attributed to ff and I lost the will to live re the rest of it because most of it has been challenged by other studies.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 21:07:25

do people still not know what causes obesity

As overeating is the main cause, have you ever researched how formula feeding encourages over-eating in later life both psychologically and physiologically

flower11 Thu 10-Jan-13 21:08:40

Aware thread has probably moved on, just been skim reading but in response to jenaimorris and in support of boggler the same happened to me dd ended up in neo natal at 5 days old dehydrated and really ill I was devestated and the paediatrician said that it happens regularly they see a few babies a week, who have lost lots of weight or because of complications of breast feeding. I was breast feeding my baby as I thought this was best for her, only problem was that I had been/was so poorly that i was bearly producing any milk and wasnt aware she was not getting any as you cant see how much milk they are getting with brest feeding. So as someone else said up thread dd was introduced to formula by neo natal nurse and it saved her life! not as part of some conspiricy theory where nurses peddle ff.

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 21:09:36

*Oh PrettyHairClips - none of the "adverts" are from the UK!

Bless you!*

Erm...the one rated as #1 hmm

But where r the stats for more babies were breast fed then HIV transition would go up by --- as there's a chance it could get thru the milk.
--% of babies would be mal nourished as mum
Didn't produce enough milk
----would suffer from
Narcotic addiction as mum had to be on pain killers.

There are negatives too if formula feeders have to hear about the negatives then fairs fair.

I just hate this formula feeder bashing there's no need. We all love our children!!! We read bed time stories take them out, cuddle them, sing to them. Breastmilk is great bit it takes more than that to raise all these happy healthy children!

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 21:12:52

Good lord I have heard it all now. I have to go and lie down.

WinkyWinkola Thu 10-Jan-13 21:13:53

I think most bash the producers of formula rather than the end user.

MorrisZapp Thu 10-Jan-13 21:15:37

Shag, I switched to ff mainly because it was the best choice for me. Yes, me. Not a baby. A woman. I fucking hated bf, and my mind was slowly unravelling. I felt trapped, claustrophobic (colostrophobic? I can laugh now smile ) and utterly lost as a person. So I committed the worst crime of womanhood. I put my needs first.

Everybody knows that breast feeding is ace for babies. But I chose to stop at 12 weeks, for me. Do I need to explain to you why that might make me feel a tad shit?

And I had tons of support. An army of hcps. A wonderful dp, a fab family. But I still lost my mind and I'm still on the fucking tablets so if you think it's all about making the best choice for the baby then you might want to open that mind of yours and accept that we all count, even us mothers. This is the real world.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 21:17:28

Do enlighten us Pretty.

Actually obesity is often caused by kids being err fed too much shit food during their entire childhood,being set poor nutritional standards and lack of access to healthy food oh and err rather crucially not enough exercise and too much inactivity such as long periods in front of screens.

In the 60s mothers were encouraged to produce chubby babies so many mothers bottle fed formula which was often laced with rusk and raw egg. The obesity epidemic didn't exist.

I was one of those babies,have always been a slim healthy size due to my good fortune in having a mother who produced a balanced healthy diet with very little junk and plenty of exercise throughout my childhood.

Your scaremongering and stat twisting is getting boring.

GirlOutNumbered Thu 10-Jan-13 21:18:37

This thread is getting boring.

What's the actual point in it? Agree to disagree?

biscuit

PrettyHairClips Thu 10-Jan-13 21:20:24

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chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 21:20:52

Shagmund, I've spent a lot of time reviewing the research because I genuinely want to understand how important or not it is to breastfeed. I had a hell of a time breastfeeding my first Rosin's 2009 article in the Atlantic Monthly was a big influence in convincing me the benefits had been vastly overstated.

I think it's important not to rely on meta analysis being spun in one direction or another and actually take a look at the individual findings some of these wild health claims are based on, because they are really not compelling.

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 21:21:41

Shag I don't think anyone is arguing against breast being best in general. Just pointing out that

It isn't best for everyone individually

It isn't possible for everyone

Advertisements of follow on milk are not the main contributing factor to low bf rates

and that where other women ff feed for whatever reason, it's really none of your business

PickledInAPearTree Thu 10-Jan-13 21:22:27

With cat.

MarianneM Thu 10-Jan-13 21:22:51

I agree HairClips, it seems that MY RIGHT TO CHOOSE (never mind what, as long as I get to choose) is the most important thing!

catgirl1976 Thu 10-Jan-13 21:24:00

Pretty

I combi fed DS for a number of reasons, one of which was DH really wanted to be involved in feeding him and I couldn't express

I put a mans needs before my baby shock

May I join Morris in the terrible mummy corner? grin

chandellina Thu 10-Jan-13 21:24:40

One of the top foods found to promote weight gain, by a truly comprehensive study, is juice.