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to feel that the Tories like foreign children more than British ones?

(106 Posts)
SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 09:55:10

They pay child benefit to Polish children who have never even been to Britain. They support children in the third world by maintaining the full value of the overseas aid budget, whilst at the same time saying they can't afford to raise income support, working tax credits or child tax credits in line with inflation. They will raise support for overseas children in line with inflation but not support for British children. British students have seen a 300% increase in their university tuition fees but overseas students have had a much smaller rise (in line with inflation). It seems, to me, that David Cameron and Ian Duncan Smith have it in for British children and young people or am I being unreasonable?

gordyslovesheep Thu 10-Jan-13 09:59:38

Yes YABU

Polish children get CB because their parents work and pay tax in the UK

Children receiving aid need it

Tax credit cuts, benefit cuts etc have nothing to do with affordability - it's purely a political anti poor decision

Tuition fees are paid by everyone

I am no fan of thie Gov (coalition btw not Tory) but you have lumped 7878794898 things together that are not linked

theykillhorses Thu 10-Jan-13 10:00:20

All children in this country have access to clean water and care.

In the third world many are starving and have to drink infected water, that is why we have overseas aid budget and rightly so.

Being poor here is extremely comfortable compared to being poor in the third world.

And I am from a poor family who had to struggle to buy food etc, we were still going to school and had free school dinners and had free medical care the whole time.

theykillhorses Thu 10-Jan-13 10:00:32

so yes YABU

Dawndonna Thu 10-Jan-13 10:00:36

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Greensleeves Thu 10-Jan-13 10:01:24

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gordyslovesheep Thu 10-Jan-13 10:02:21

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AutumnMadness Thu 10-Jan-13 10:05:46

YABU, Tories just a) hate everyone who threatens their wealth and dominance, b) are thick, c) both.

Polish children get child benefit because of the EU rules. Tories can't just brush the rules away. Foreign aid is maintained definitely not for the benefit of foreign children. Aid is notoriously ineffective, but it acts as a nice political shield that covers up the fact that Western trade policies are one of the major reasons for the third-word poverty. As long as we are feeding the money into the pockets of third-world dictators, we don't have to worry as much about their people having an uprising about Western subsidies and import tariff arrangements.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:07:03

AIBU to feel that Sindy is a racist bigot?

threesocksmorgan Thu 10-Jan-13 10:07:29

I do think that no way should we be sending money abroad, whilst be told we are in such dire straits that we are targeting the most vulnerable.

SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 10:10:30

Tuition fees might be paid by everyone but why do British children have to pay the same as foreign ones. We pay for the upkeep of the universities through the tax system already. Foreign parents do not make that contribution. Polish children with parents working in the UK are relatively wealthy. Why do they get child benefit whilst British children with one parent earning over 60k don't. It seems he has it in for British children to me.

SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 10:13:31

I'm not a racist at all or bigoted I just feel unfairly treated as a British mother of 5 British children who are trying to get an education. Sorry about that.

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:14:05

I agree with Greensleeves.

I hate the tories, with a passion. But your points are so stupid it's laughable. So, yes, YABU, but I suspect it's through ignorance rather than the nastiness it comes across as.

1. Not idea why you're focusing on Polish children (DM per chance?), but any UK taxpayers that fit the criteria can claim CB, regardless of whether the parents had to leave their children in another country to come here to work.

2. There is no 'third' world, but that aside, I think the points above explain why aid continues to be given.

3. University students aren't children for a start. Also, if they were to raise overseas fees as much as home ones, universities would all become bankrupt within a year or two. Universities rely on the huge overseas fees for much of their income, and rendering UK univeristy an unviable option for this group would be financially stupid.

hth. smile

showtunesgirl Thu 10-Jan-13 10:14:34

OP, I suggest you actually find out the truth before ranting incoherently.

I live in area of London with quite a few Polish people and many of them are far from wealthy so I have no idea where you got this idea from.

You also have it wrong. The Tory Government don't have it in for British Children but ALL of us.

Vagaceratops YANBU at all.

Sindy your views are very foolish/ridiculous/stupid/wrong/bigoted/racist/idiotic (choose your favourites)

Nancy66 Thu 10-Jan-13 10:17:29

Five kids that you can't afford? How very third world of you.....

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 10:17:38

I agree three clearly we're not in the dire straits they say we are.

Re CB I'd like to know exactly what is the situation re European nationals. Ifvfamilies are getting it for children not even here that is blatantly wrong as CB was for the additional costs of raising children in this country not in countries where child rearing costs are a fraction of the costs in GB. If those earning earning over 50- 60 k are still getting it because they're European that is utterly wrong but is that happening? There is very little info on this subject.

"Racist bigot"-god I hate the hysterical overuse of this phrase.Op is simply asking a question meant tax payers facing a massive amount of cuts are asking.

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CogitoErgoSometimes Thu 10-Jan-13 10:22:01

"I'm not a racist at all or bigoted "

Just because you say it, doesn't make it true. YABU

threesocksmorgan Thu 10-Jan-13 10:23:12

calling some one a loon because they ask a question is daft. and I don't think it is racist to question this,

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 10:23:23

How exactly is she a racist-enlighten us?

SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 10:23:23

I can afford my children. I'm not a racist, bigot or stupid. I feel unfairly treated because I have been unfairly treated. Not because of some problem with my thinking. I gave birth to my children under one system, then it changed.

Chopchopbusybusy Thu 10-Jan-13 10:25:28

Actually I'm sure the Tories hate paying child benefit to non resident children but EU rules mean they have to. I am not happy about student fees but fees for overseas students are already huge and if universities don't get a decent percentage (I think in some cases 30%) of students from overseas they just wouldn't have enough income. As for your comments about overseas aid they are just shocking.

Familyguyfan Thu 10-Jan-13 10:26:27

Just a quick point on tuition fees. Of memory serves, EU students are treated the same way as domestic students and pay the same fees. That applies in all EU universities to provide a level playing field (EU law) so if you child goes to Berlin, Vienna etc for university, they would pay the same as a German or Austrian student.

Overseas students (ie. not EU) pay enormous fees. They are real cash cows for universities. You do not want a compatible situation for domestic students!!

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 10:26:50

Chop chop what were the shocking comments re overseas aid?

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 10:27:52

AutumnMadness has pinned the tail on the donkey.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Thu 10-Jan-13 10:29:17

Your understanding of the politics behind the headlines is too weak for you to have feelings which have any real meaning attached to them so on that score YABU.

As for feeling 'unfairly treated', if we would deign to pay the parents of foreign children properly for the things they manufacture and the food they produce instead of giving them half of what they ask for and a tenth of what they deserve then that would go some way to improving their countries economies so they could feed/clothe/educate/vaccinate their children without us filling the bellies and pockets of the of the dictators that we have installed. But to do that we would no longer be able to buy a pair of jeans for £3. You're standing on their backs, so quit moaning about what is 'fair'.

Chopchopbusybusy Thu 10-Jan-13 10:30:50

Polkadot, we may be in the midst of a recession but we are still a relatively wealthy country and as such we should be making a contribution to less wealthy countries. I find the idea that we shouldn't shocking.

lovelyladuree Thu 10-Jan-13 10:31:15

Another thread started by a Daily Mail reader. Will just put the kettle on.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 10-Jan-13 10:32:00

Vagaceratops and MissyMoo - How exactly is it racist for the OP to suggest the overseas aid budget should be reduced because as a country we cannot afford it?! You may have a different opinion, and believe that the aid budget should be maintained because even in our worst position we are still far more fortunate than other countries, but how is the OP's opinion racist? How it it racist for her to question whether child benefit should be paid when the child does not live in the UK?

I agree that child benefit should only be paid for children who live in the UK. Whether you are British or Polish or any other nationality, you should not receive child benefit unless your children live in the UK too. As PolkadotCircus said CB is to assist parents with the additional costs of raising children in the UK, IMO; these costs are not the same in other countries.

If someone has a different opinion then please share this and offer an explanation - don't simply shout "racist."

nilbyname Thu 10-Jan-13 10:34:39

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DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 10-Jan-13 10:35:08

By the way, I understand that EU rules dictate that child benefit must be paid but it doesn't prevent me, or anyone else, having an opinion regarding that rule.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 10:37:00

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DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 10-Jan-13 10:37:25

Nilbyname who exactly was your rather rude post directed at?

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:38:13

Fine.

The OP's views are clouding her judgement, either that or she has little knowledge of what she speaks.

If universities raised the already high fees of foreign students, they would be priced out of the market, the domestic fees would have to increase, or universities would close.

nilbyname Thu 10-Jan-13 10:39:46

Polka

I stand by my comment as the op has presented a very limited view with a very poor understanding of the issues she has raised. So yes I think that is pretty thick. If you are going to come on AIBU with such strong and polarised views, at least be able to give them some sort of support beyond gutter press headlines.

I bet I get deleted. (((goes round behind bike sheds to smoke, but not inhale)

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:40:01

You can have an opinion about the rules, but you cannot then say that DC and IDS like foreign children more than they like British ones because they are following them, its just a ridiculous DM-esque hype.

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 10:43:49

Well at least OP has raised some interesting points otherwise we might all sit around moaning about the price of imported coffee or clothing.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 10-Jan-13 10:44:23

Vagaceratops - but how is the OP racist? You called her a racist; I think that warrants some explanation, as it is very easy to fling that sort of accusation.

Overseas (non-EU) students have been paying more than £10,000 a year for tuition for YEARS, effectively subsidising UK/EU students. I think that's perfectly fine, but you certainly can't say that foreign students are getting preferential treatment. They're also not eligible for much of the student aid that UK students get.

Why not take advantage of EU rules for your own children? There are universities in Holland, Germany, Sweden that offer courses taught in English for certain subjects. If your children are young they could even start learning a foreign language now and open up their options.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:50:18

She thinks tax paying parents should not be able to claim CB because they children are Foreign.

She thinks Foreign students should have their fees increased by much more.

She thinks that Foreign aid is a waste of time, and not because it may not actually reach those is meant to help, but because benefits in this country will not be rising by more than 1%.

Anyone that spends this much time and effort worrying about foreigners really has a problem.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:50:37

some benefits.

Yabu - the Tories don't like any children. grin

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:51:35

Her singling out of Poland could be construed as racist.

fluffyraggies Thu 10-Jan-13 10:52:13

Having a very poor understanding about something doesn't make a person thick.

Yelling insults and sarcasm around does make you look very thick.

Trying to express an opinion on something even if you don't understand it isn't a crime.

I find it educational to read the properly constructed explanations from posters about politics. They stop the knee jerk reactions to headlines.

Those posters crying 'thicko' and 'racist' however, just come across as prats IMO.

H that H grin

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 10:54:34

Sindy has a valid point regarding tuition fees. I think the overseas aid is actually overseas bribes to enable exports, they just dress it up with humanitarian bullshit.

OP don't worry, there are people on here who scream racist at the drop of a hat. And to them anyone to the right of Karl Marx is just evil grin

I extend a sincere welcome to you.

Vagaceratops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:55:18

Well I would rather be an educated prat than someone who believes everything that they read in the DM, not even thinking to question it but taking it as gospel.

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 10:55:51

What's the 'valid point' regarding tuition fees? It's not valid at all, it's downright idiotic.

nilbyname Thu 10-Jan-13 10:55:51

Well it was done in jest, so whatevs, I can see it has bombed.

sindy I apologise, I hold a different view from you and fail to see any merit in the points you make, however they are yours to hold and calling you thick was insulting, unecessary and I take it back.

fluffyraggies Thu 10-Jan-13 10:56:40

And calling that person a thicko or racist is really helping isn't it?

fluffyraggies Thu 10-Jan-13 10:57:20

X post nilby.

showtunesgirl Thu 10-Jan-13 10:57:22

The OP is not racist but xenophobic if she's singling out Polish people. Polish people make up a nation, NOT a race.

<strolls off to Pedants' Corner>

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 10:59:08

to the right of Karl Marx is just evil indeed they are!

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 10:59:15

Vag err no she raised the question because said children aren't even here,entirely valid to question the fairness.

Also if European children with a single parent earning 50-60 k are still getting CB when UK parents aren't then sorry the gov could actually make it the same for everybody pretty much like they could make it the same for families on a combined income of 50-60k but that's a whole other thread.

It's perfectly reasonable to question something that isn't fair and not that difficult to iron out.

RedToothbrush Thu 10-Jan-13 10:59:28

Would the OP care to comment on the recent cracking down on student visas and how a lot of universities have warned the government that restrictions will lead to them having funding problems and thus not be able to compete on a world level with other international institutions?

They pay larger fees than British students if they are not from the EU (EU students pay the same as locals --this could potentially cripple Scottish universities in time--). This would also affect the quality of education available in the UK to British students in this country.

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 11:00:24

Yes, I did consider that.

NumericalMum Thu 10-Jan-13 11:05:07

OP I think I have been treated unfairly. I have one DC that I can afford and not 5 that I can't. I want the same amount of support you are receiving as otherwise it isn't at all fair, just because you don't use contraception.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Thu 10-Jan-13 11:05:14

She thinks tax paying parents should not be able to claim CB because they children are Foreign. No, she doesn't. She thinks they should not be allowed to claim CB if their children are not living in the UK.

She thinks that Foreign aid is a waste of time, and not because it may not actually reach those is meant to help, but because benefits in this country will not be rising by more than 1%. No, she thinks that the foreign aid budget should not be maintained at the same level when the country claims not to be able to afford to maintain benefits at the same level.

Anyone that spends this much time and effort worrying about foreigners really has a problem. I don't believe she is really 'worrying about foreigners' - she is having an opinion on matters which affect everyone.

You may not agree with her opinion and maybe she doesn't have a very good understanding of the matters on which she is commenting but to call her racist (or thick nilbyname) for those opinions is really not on.

Why is it, in conversations like these, people always get so arsey about the Polish?

Everyone knows it's the Moldovakians who are the real problem.

SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 11:06:47

Thank you all for helping me with my poor reasoning. I don't have it in for Polish people (I like them, they are Catholic, like me and we share a somewhat common culture). I see that the consensus is that the coalition have it in for everybody apart from the bankers (who hopefully will give them a job one day). By the way I have always supported overseas aid. I still feel unfairly treated but now I understand that EU rules have protected EU nationals and we have no option but to pay child benefit to EU nationals working in the UK even if their children don't live here. I suppose we all have to make cuts so that the status quo is maintained.
At the mo I'm doing a OU course on international trade so your views are really interesting. Thanks to everybody who replied.

threesocksmorgan Thu 10-Jan-13 11:08:59

so if we are a wealthy country and can afford to send money abroad to help others.
why are the government closing day centres/respite places. cutting benefits for disabled people and sick people?

showtunesgirl Thu 10-Jan-13 11:09:33

OP, how is it you're doing a course on International Trade but don't know general international policies and politics? confused

SindyW Thu 10-Jan-13 11:12:29

showtunesgirl - I'm still learning lol. I think my Marxists tendencies are getting in the way. Sorry if I offended anybody.

strumpetpumpkin Thu 10-Jan-13 11:13:18

what an incredibly stupid point of view.

The tories hate all children not at eton. Everybody knows that.

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 11:13:56

"I don't have it in for Polish people (I like them, they are Catholic, like me"

Really? All of them? hmm

AutumnMadness Thu 10-Jan-13 11:15:39

One thing I always like MN for is reasonably civilised way people treated each other. No matter how much you may despite the views of the posters, the accusations of bigotry and lack of intelligence are not helpful and destroy the spirit of open debate. And there has been a lot of it this morning. Here and on the Northern Ireland flag thread. Come on people, be nice!

LoopInHoops I was just about to say pretty much the same thing. I know a few Polish people and none of them are Catholic....

I mean none of the people I know.....not NONE of all the Polish people (if that sentence even makes grammatical sense grin ).

RedToothbrush Thu 10-Jan-13 11:18:28

BTW, we are also allowed to go elsewhere in Europe to university and are entitled to free tuition or very cheap tuition as a result in some countries (Finland would be one, off the top of my head that has fees which are pretty much token). Many courses are taught in english not the native language too.

British students tend not to choose this option because of the worry of language (which many EU nationals don't worry about as they have English as such a strong second language), but also because many of our universities are so highly rated internationally in comparison with other EU countries. We are privileged in this respect. It basically means that university fees can not just be looked as something that is just about British citizens as its a global market. In order to protect out future, we need to take into consideration these factors.

IThinkOfHappyWhenIThinkOfYou Thu 10-Jan-13 11:19:09

OP, what do you think about the 9 million quid the government has just given to Cafod?

Do you seriously think that Cafod should stop its work in Haiti, congo, syria etc because its 'unfair' that people on the bones of their arse, who have literally lost everything should not be given a hand up. Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the prisoners. Do you think the gospel writers missed out 'but only if they are British nationals' off the end of that sentence?

OP, if I can give you some advice going forward with your studies -- any time you come across a policy or situation that seems crazy (as you definitely will in international trade!) don't just stop with your emotional reaction to it (i.e., this is crazy/stupid/unfair). Instead ask the obvious question: why are people putting this policy in place, if it's so crazy/stupid/unfair? That will lead you to answers similar to the ones given here (e.g., Brussels makes us).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you're going to study a subject then you need more than an opinion, you need facts and informed judgment.

Exactly, RedToothbrush

I just realised I didn't clarify in my earlier post that the whole point of going to other countries for university is that they often cost very, very little.

Grapesoda Thu 10-Jan-13 11:25:30

I think the op is getting a hard time. Her questions are not unreasonable. Btw, we are not a rich country anymore. Our grandchildren and beyond will be paying for the debts we've built up over the years. Poverty is a relative issue. It is not necessarily the case that all the money in the world should be even,y shared out so everyone has a tiny piece. There are many families and individuals in need in the UK who are suffering and will continue to suffer financially due to ongoing spending cuts. I don't believe it's bigoted or racist to raise the issue of spending overseas and it sounds a little hysterical to immediately jump in with that assumption. Sensible discussion is what's required surely.

Mumsyblouse Thu 10-Jan-13 11:25:52

Sindy, as others have said, perhaps you have misunderstood the tuition fees situation. If you are a UK student, your fees are not paid until years after you have done the course, and only if you are earning above a certain amount. So effectively you get a loan.

Overseas students do not get a loan, and they pay full fees. A Chinese undergraduate in our university is paying £9,000 a year upfront, plus bring probably about £10-15,000 into the local economy (unable to live at home). Your child, however, is paying NOTHING upfront and has the choice of living at home and attending the local university.

You are making yourself look foolish by trying to make out international students have a better deal.

Scrazy Thu 10-Jan-13 11:27:43

WRT tuition fees. Am I right in thinking that some of the non EU and EU fees are paid for by their own governments? Whereas ours won't help finance overseas courses, so limiting the students who can take advantage of them. I expect every country has it's own rules and it might be to do with the course not being offered via their own education system.

Hechan Thu 10-Jan-13 11:32:35

Re child benefit, YABU if you think this is a one-sided arrangement. If you went to work/pay your taxes in Poland leaving your partner and kids in the UK, you would be entitled to whatever Polish parents get, even if your kids had never even been to Poland. I live in Ireland with my kids and get my child benefit from the Netherlands. Them's the rules. It's not a soft-touch Britain issue at all, despite what the DM would have us believe.

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:35:49

Scrazy -- US students can use government loans (capped at a certain amount) to pay for university whether at home or abroad. Unfortunately, due to the exchange rate, it only covers about half the cost of attending uni in the UK, on top of which foreign students are limited in how many hours they can work, they can't go part-time, etc. The terms for repaying the loans are also much worse than the UK system.

In many German states, uni is free, so even if you can't get UK loans you may be better off going that route.

RedToothbrush Thu 10-Jan-13 11:38:14

Some stats about Overseas students (this isn't very clear here as MN doesn't format it, but if you click on the link its a lot more readable). It makes for interesting reading, especially if you are talking about funding.

EU students (non-UK domicile) in HE
FT PT Total
Postgraduate research 10,300 3,105 13,405
Postgraduate taught 24,685 7,000 31,685
Postgraduate other 1,900 2,805 4,705
First degree 66,450 3,210 69,770
Other undergraduate 2,800 7,750 10,550
Total non-UK EU 106,245 23,870 130,115

Non-EU students in HE
FT PT Total
Postgraduate research 25,505 3,505 29,010
Postgraduate taught 113,100 14,970 128,070
Postgraduate other 2,330 4,480 6,810
First degree 108,755 5,915 114,670
Other undergraduate 9,110 10,440 19,550
Total non-EU 258,800 39,3310 298,110

Top 10 non-EU senders 2010-11 2009-10
China (PRC) 67,325 56,990
India 39,090 38,500
Nigeria 17,585 16,680
United States of America 15,555 15,060
Malaysia 13,900 14,060
Hong Kong (Special Administrative Region) 10,440 9,945
Saudi Arabia 10,270 8,340
Pakistan 10,185 9,815
Thailand 5,945 5,505
Canada 5,905 5,575

Top 10 EU senders 2010-11 2009-10
Republic of Ireland 16,855 16,595
Germany 16,265 15,425
France 13,325 13,780
Greece 11,630 11,785
Cyprus 11,320 11,160
Poland 7,330 8,415
Italy 7,100 6,650
Spain 5,795 5,720
Romania 4,625 3,190
Bulgaria 4,615 3,395

Scrazy Thu 10-Jan-13 11:39:15

Thanks Pessary. I thought it was something like this. I know it's not the same but a friend of mine is from IOM and they don't pay a penny to study in England. She left uni with £150 debt to the bank.

Mumsyblouse Thu 10-Jan-13 11:40:13

Scrazy, nearly all our non-EU students are self-funded, i.e. their parents stump up nigh on £50,000 plus over 3 years for them to be educated in the UK (fees plus living expenses). There are a few on scholarships funded by their governments, but they are a small minority and the money is still placed into our economy.

EU, I am not so sure now, we are not deluged by fully funded by their government EU students, and now the £9k fees have come in, I cannot imagine there are many governments paying their students that to come here.

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:41:18

If we were doing the university education thing again with our kids I would strongly consider the University of Maastricht.

http://www.maastrichtuniversity.nl/

It would be considerably cheaper and has the benefit of learning about Dutch culture.

MakeItALarge Thu 10-Jan-13 11:41:29

When I started my msc in 2011 I paid £3700, a North American student doing the exact same course paid £11,000.

Foreign students do not always get it cheaper.

PessaryPam Thu 10-Jan-13 11:42:14

Scrazy, ah the IOM, we are considering moving there. Love the place.

LoopsInHoops Thu 10-Jan-13 11:42:51

But this is a problem of lack of consistency throughout the UK due to devolution, not that 'foreign children are liked better'. If Wales and Scotland had the same fees as us, or even better, if we had the same as them, this wouldn't be an issue.

Scrazy Thu 10-Jan-13 11:43:23

Mine has no choice except to study in England and take the full loans. It's OK saying study in Germany but they still need money to live on and student finance doesn't cover it.

Mumsyblouse Thu 10-Jan-13 11:49:28

That's right, you have to find living costs, but so do most EU and non-EU students, they pay the same rent, food etc as your children. That's also why there is a strong tradition on the continent of students attending their local university and living at home, to keep living costs down.

That's why international students are usually from very wealthy families, and why the same is becoming true of English students living away from home at uni, only the wealthy can afford it.

RedToothbrush Thu 10-Jan-13 11:58:08

On the other hand though, you'll perhaps get a better quality of education than elsewhere in the EU. I don't think there's a simple solution here.

Fees have to reflect what it costs to run the universities. What I do question more than anything is how much the universities themselves set the fees at - when they reviewed the upper limit on fees, the report thought that most university would set fees a lot lower. But they haven't. Why is that?

Its almost as if you've effectively now got a cartel set by the universities. What you might find, is that in two to three years time, if places aren't being filled that some universities are forced to drop fees to match supply and demand better.

Of course it doesn't help the first wave of students going through the process...

Scrazy, it still might be worth looking into -- there are scholarships offered to foreign students by German foundations, some student loans, etc.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 12:07:29

I'm just going to answer SindyW's OP.

The HMRC say if you live in a European Economic Area and work in the UK or claim a National Insurance based benefit. So if you were to move to France and you claimed a state pension but are the guardian of young children you can still claim child benefit.

Polish people who live here can claim the benefit, whether their children live here or not. But if they are already claiming a child benefit in Poland then they won't be eligible. Often if the parents are working in the UK then they cannot claim child benefit from their home country, just as if you went to work in France you could not claim from the UK. So whilst you were in France you may be able to claim their benefits for the children you have back home.

Overseas aid is very necessary. Why not concern yourself with the billions that could be saved if tax avoidance loopholes were closed? TopShop, Starbucks, Amazon, Google, the four main banks, BP, Shell and many more all have offshore based companies into which they share out their profits so that they don't have to pay any UK tax. That is something worth getting angry about, not giving money to fund medicine and food supplies for war torn and developing nations.

Welsh and Scottish students do not pay fees. Is that fair? Overseas students do pay hefty fees to study here and the Universities have actually been accused of turning away British students in place of foreign students from Asia who pay through the nose to study in the UK.

Cameron and Clegg have it in for poor people. Those of us who work in service industries that keep the country ticking over. Teachers, the police, refuse collectors, shop assistants, construction workers, nurses, etc. Those are the people chosen by the Tories to pay more than their fair share so that the banks can get away with not paying corporate tax, so that multi-national companies will see the UK as an attractive prospect for non-taxable business, so that the country can ease itself out of the debt caused by those very banks.

Your anger is misplaced.

One question for you: Why the focus on Polish people?

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 12:36:29

I'd also like to point out that the Daily Mail is owned by Lord Rothermere, a close pal of David Cameron who isn't above the odd tax avoidance scheme himself.

Don't you see SandyW? The government would far rather you blame immigrants, foreigners and those on welfare than their own policies. At times of recession it's easy to look at others and feel resentful and the media, Daily Mail especially, capitalise on this with ludicrous stories of how foreigners are coming over here for free NHS treatment, how people on benefits are sponging off the state, etc. Look a little closer and you'll see that the politicians themselves regularly fiddle their expenses, avoid all the tax they can and spend like there's no tomorrow whilst telling us all what we have to cut back.

By getting you to blame your Polish neighbours they are diverting you away from the real culprits.

You have to bear in mind that whatever EU nationals can do here, we can do in their country too. And we do. Thousands sail off to France and Spain each year and set up little colonies of their own. They claim that country's benefits, they take up jobs and some of them don't even bother to learn the local language. Sound familiar?

Don't fall for it. Take a closer look around you instead. And invest in a decent newspaper.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:36:35

Sorry those in the public service industries are now simply experiencing what those in the private sector have been experiencing for a long time.

Sooooo utterly fed up with this consistent view that only the public sector a having a tough time,you're not everybody in the middle is as the Tories only look after the rich because they are,pensioners because they need their votes and those at the very bottom because they have to.

Those in the middle are consistently taking the pain,having their kids shat on and funding mot of the cuts.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:37:56

And if people want to question that all power to them.

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 12:45:56

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_viNHVzadeM Susan George on the causes of world poverty.

The WTO, the federal bank and the IMF have enslaved third world countries to huge levels of debt. They dictate what these countries can produce and how it can be traded. Western nations do not profit from this but western states fund foreign aid from our taxes. Who profits? well the very same people and corporations that avoid paying tax in the west. (in UK, USA) When we talk about paying aid to war torn countries we should look closely into why those nations are torn apart. Sadam Hussein was sponsored by the west but he refused to privatise industries and in particular oil in Iraq. We are told we are waging war to democratise but in fact what is really meant is that we wage war to neo-liberalise their economy. Not because it is beneficial to us or our state but because of corporate interests in cheap, unregulated labour, few if any environmental controls to exploit natural resources. So if a dictator receives both aid and he is prepared to accept corporate exploitation and huge interest repayments to the banks (IMF and FED) then he gets to stay in power.....

How many times do you pay for that 1 cup of coffee at Costa? we subsidise Costa through tax avoidance, we subsidise their workers wages through tax cerdits and HB and we pay aid to developing countries, we also pay for wars through our taxes that benefit them and also we are shovelling money into the hands of the bankers through the IMF. We wage war with our tax money so they can get at cheaper labour in third world countries. All the time our nation state is being bankrupted.

If only Mr Clegg and Scameron acted in the interests of Britian and not in their own class interests. They would realise that right wing neo-lib policy is bankrupting the UK, has been for the past 30 years.

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 12:47:45

<<<Those in the middle are consistently taking the pain,having their kids shat on and funding mot of the cuts>>>

that's because you are working class darling. And I might add, no one is actually "funding" the cuts. That's a contradiction.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 12:48:01

Polka, my dh works in construction and I am self employed. I sympathise but having worked in the public sector myself and knowing quite a lot of nurses I can honestly say that they are often pushed to working harder and harder, accepting more hours and more changes for very little benefit.

Working in the public sector used to be a cushy deal but not anymore. I don't envy them at all now. At least in the private sector the goalposts are not constantly changing. I felt less pressure in the private sector.

We are ALL being shat on. We shouldn't let the Tory Party divide us as they currently are doing. Everyone from the pensioners to the middle class, middle income family are being shat on from a great height and it's got nothing to do with Polish people.

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 12:57:53

I've worked in the public sector and have seen how much harder it is first hand in the private sector having a Dp working in it and family members who have worked in both.

But you're right,we should all stick together and not hurl insults when people question unfairness.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 13:00:47

smile

seeker Thu 10-Jan-13 13:02:38

"Having a very poor understanding about something doesn't make a person thick."

No, but pontification about it without gaining a better understanding does!

realcoalfire Thu 10-Jan-13 13:32:44

Maybe you ask the thousands of Afghan and Iraqi children and their families, who have been maimed killed and orphaned whether the British Government likes foreign children?

MiniTheMinx Thu 10-Jan-13 13:41:27

"The US military is facing fresh questions over its targeting policy in Afghanistan after a senior army officer suggested that troops were on the lookout for "children with potential hostile intent".

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/07/us-military-targeting-strategy-afghanistan

www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=13518
article about how western corporations are "Steeling" aid money in Afghanistan. CorpWatch investigates and exposes corporate violations of human rights, environmental crimes, fraud and corruption around the world.

theodorakisses Thu 10-Jan-13 13:51:18

By all means question the governments policies on immigration both present and past but it is a bit rum to suggest that some children are not "entitled" to the basics in life. Should British people put their kids before immigrants? If so, how many generations do they have to be here (passport or not) before they are worthy. In Qatar, a small ME country, my kids have the same rights, protection and care as anyone else. Yes I appreciate they are a rich nation but we are talking morality here, not cash.

THERhubarb Thu 10-Jan-13 13:55:59

Just noticed that Sindy's profile says she doesn't have children.

First post too - well done Sindy!

PolkadotCircus Thu 10-Jan-13 13:58:48

Theodor they're not immigrants if they're not here,that is the shoe point.

ThursdayWillBeTheDay Thu 10-Jan-13 14:07:45

OP, yes, my Mum is a Tory and likes her Polish tennants a whole lot more than she likes her British ones.....d'ya know why? Because the Polish family work hard, are nice people and pay the rent on time. While the Brits haven't paid their rent in 6 mths and keep fridges in the backyard while producing another kid every 10mths or so.

Capeesh?

theodorakisses Thu 10-Jan-13 14:12:51

Fair enough, the inflammatory nature of this post must have burned my eyes. Seriously though, I kind of agree with the notion that the government should be looking after the people but, having lived in Bangladesh, Africa and, briefly Eastern Europe, I am loathe to compare aid with benefits. I do question the fees though, as a non tax paying, comparatively rich expat, my company will pay for my kids to go to a UK boarding school for 3 years so we don't have to pay fees for university. How is that ok? Same as all the women I know returning to the NHS for a month to give birth having been on £100k plus tax free for the last 10 years? Target the rich, not the poor.

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