To think DD aged 16 isn't going to have any income when she leaves school because she doesn't fit neatly into one of the boxes?

(97 Posts)
MarthaEntwhistle Wed 09-Jan-13 00:13:29

DD will leave school in the summer. She doesn't want to do 6th form/college. She's clever but not academic. Instead she wants to work in an outdoor adventure centre - she sees this as a future career, not just a bit of fun -and has some voluntary work lined up at a local centre, but it seems they can't offer her a job until she's 18 as she'll be supervising chilldren so needs to be 18 for that. They don't do appenticeships.

So it looks like DD will be doing outdoorsy voluntary work until she's 18. There's no colleges near us that do any outdoor adventure BTECs or anything else remotely interesting to her.

A friend told me that my DD won't be allowed to "just do voluntary" as she has to be in some sort of education. Not sure how she'll be found out, perhaps the undercover zipwire police will spot her

I am concerned about her having no income as she's not conforming by staying on in education and I'm finding it hard to get any information about what entitlements she'll have, to benefits, if any. Bit of a worry really and school/careers haven't been that helpful - just wanting to pigeon hole her into 6th form or college which she has no interest in.

AIBU to hope there's someone around who knows about this stuff?

blueemerald Wed 09-Jan-13 00:18:15

From this summer teenagers have to stay in full time education, apprenticeship or employment with part time education until 17, I suspect all organisations will be training their staff towards helping with that and they may not be aware of/interested in 16 year old school leavers.

ebersneezer Wed 09-Jan-13 00:18:30

Are their any pursuits she can gain qualifications in like climbing, kayaking? I know that's not covering the formal qualifications and income parts of your post.

HenryCrun Wed 09-Jan-13 00:19:47

You probably already have, but have you contacted these guys? www.outwardbound.org.uk/

It's a stab in the dark but they might be able to offer more constructive advice on your situation than we can.

PandaOnAPushBike Wed 09-Jan-13 00:27:27

If she's serious then this is what she's looking for.

flow4 Wed 09-Jan-13 01:00:19

I'm afraid she isn't entitled to any benefits aged 16-17 (except in really exceptional circumstances - like you threw her out and refused to support her and social services became involved).

If she stays living at home and in full-time education in an approved accredited course at level 1-3, you can claim child benefit and tax credits (if you qualify) for her. You won't get anything if she isn't on this type of course - e.g. if she is doing voluntary work, or a p/t course, or an accredited sports training course at a different level.

I think she may be required to stay in FE education/training until she is 17 now: the compulsory school leaving age is rising - to 17 from this year, and 18 from 2015. However, I'm not certain whether the changes come into force in the school year ending or beginning 2013 - i.e. 2012-13 or 13-14, so that's worth checking.

The change in law means you have a legal duty to support her in education - though I guess you could 'officially' home educate her if there isn't a course she wants to do.

It's a really awkward in-between age... My 17 yo son came close to 'dropping out' last year, and I was really worried, because the financial implications for me would have been very serious, and a gap in a young person's CV at this age can cause problems. Lots of young people find themselves 'marking time' until they're 18, and I think lots of them lose confidence and motivation meanwhile.

I wish your DD luck. smile

TinyDancingHoofer Wed 09-Jan-13 01:09:18

She could volunteer part time and work part time surely? As a waitress or in retail. Not every job you have equals your future career and when you are unable to get a job in your desired market you have to go elsewhere to pay the bills. I understand that your DD probably has very few bills right now but there is still no reason she can't get a small job to give her some work experience and income.

Also could she spend a year doing a childcare course to give her a headstart over other applicants. If she is supervising children, a first aid certificate wouldn't hurt. I don't know how outdoorsy you mean but if she got a job in a gear shop she would pick up the names of climbing/surfing/sailing equipment and a lot of useful stuff too.

smilingismyfavourite Wed 09-Jan-13 01:11:21

There are definitely careers and further education courses in outdoor education. (We tease my DH that he has a degree in tying knots as this is what he did) but you are right in that those courses might not kick in until the age of 18. In the mean time DD needs to look at what qualifications the outdoor adventure centres are looking for in order for her to have an actual career there. They are likely to want some relavant qualifications regardless of whether she has voluteered there or not. Has she previously done DoE or any other organised outdoor things where qualified instructors could point her in the right direction?

With the introduction of the new rules that teenagers need to be in fulll time education for longer, lots of collages are responding with more vocational qualifications that, while not exactly tailored to your DDs needs might help her to get onto the courses she needs at 18 in order to do what she wants to do in the future. Try to get her to be open minded in what she is doing at the moment and look at it as a stepping stone. She could probably do a vocational college course and continue to do some voluteering work. With the right backing and determination she can get where she wants to be. I love when young people have a determination and know where they want to go (I work with so many who don't care sad)

achillea Wed 09-Jan-13 01:14:14

Have you asked her what areas within that sector she wants to work in? For example she could work towards getting childcare qualifications or do first aid training or sports / physio education.

Perhaps she could choose something like this with a view to using it at the outdoor centre?

KobayashiMaru Wed 09-Jan-13 01:30:04

16 is so young to leave education, and you don't need to be very academic to do a-levels or a btec or something. and its far too young to pick such a narrow "career" option with qualifications involved. Can't you convince her to sign up to something?

HystericalParoxysm Wed 09-Jan-13 01:40:23

I know about this industry <tries not to out self. Probably fails> but its an incredibly competitive one, where I live anyway. People are falling over themselves to work long long hours for minimum wage so employers can afford to be fussy. Many of us have degrees. As with most jobs these days the written records are very important so anything involving written English would be worth perusing.

sashh Wed 09-Jan-13 01:47:49

Not exactly what she wants but I keep seeing adverts for apprentice life guards - would give her some money and a qualification that would be relevant to her chosen field.

I do think you ABU, your daughter is choosing to do voluntry work rather than college or getting a job.

ihavenonameonhere Wed 09-Jan-13 03:37:56

Could she look at doing a qualification in tourism?

My sister didnt know what she wanted to do at 16 but my parents made her do an administration course so she would at least have those skills and qualification

ihearsounds Wed 09-Jan-13 03:52:32

It's all well and good to say the op is being unreasonable. However the implication is that her dd has to remain either working or in education. This doesnt include voluntary. This means no financial support, and possible legal action?

Op is she aware of the new rules? it is really astonishing how many are unaware, and I say this as a parent with someone in y11.. Until I mentioned it to her, becuae of a thread on here, she was unaware, so is now panicking in case she doesnt get offered a college place.

AmberSocks Wed 09-Jan-13 04:00:21

you could say you are home educating her and she could then do the volunteering,theres noset requirement for what home education.

AmberSocks Wed 09-Jan-13 04:01:10

alsodont panic,she has an actual interest which is a great thing!

madwomanintheattic Wed 09-Jan-13 04:19:22

If this is really what she wants to do, then she needs to suck it up and sort something educational out for the next two years whilst working towards gaining a degree place. I'm not sure who's doing it now, but in my day it was Liverpool for outdoor ed. she should already be pursuing d of e and expedition work (tick off gold, and get some service projects under her belt with kids - try cubs or similar) and getting as much experience, first aid certification (she's old enough to have adult certs) and building up as much in her log books as she possibly can.

Back in the day, YTS used to be a really good way to do this stuff, but unless you have a particular aptitude and are junior kayaking champ or whatever, these days the only way in is graft. If she wants a cheap way into this stuff, she's better off building her way towards a degree course anyway - tons of opportunities for rock quals, as well as ad hoc mountaineering stuff.

How does her log book look? She needs to have it ready so that at 18 she can book onto her ml summer and start working through those.

Either that or she just needs to join the military as a pti. grin

Unless she has some bloody good contacts, she's going to have to have a better plan than 'a bit of volunteering' with the hope it's going to lead to paid employment in the outdoor pursuits industry. If she gets to 18 in education, she can apply for bunch work permits and fetch up in ski in the winter/ climb in the summer/ hiking type resort as a student. But really, employers are going to want to see some effort towards qualifications.

madwomanintheattic Wed 09-Jan-13 04:21:36

(She'll need the swimming stuff anyway - I assumed she was already bronze medallion tbh. Later on, she'll need deep water rescue and instructional stuff. Not sure what it's like in the UK at the mo in terms of updated quals. We upped and left. To one of those ski in the winter, climb in the summer places. grin)

AmberSocks Wed 09-Jan-13 04:31:47

When i said say you are homeeducating her i didnt mean lie or anything i meant inform the school thatshe will be home educated from next year and then they will inform the lea.

She will have moretime toork on the practical skills needed for a career in outdoor sports (and to gain qualifications)if she is not at 6th form or college.

madwomanintheattic Wed 09-Jan-13 04:49:20

It will be more expensive though - loads of courses subsidised through colleges - I didn't pay for any of my mountain leadership stuff, and clocked up most of my log book through school/ uni/ youth groups various stuff... Cadets is also good for outward bound stuff - I ended up on a winter mountaineering course that way for two weeks in the Cairngorms, as well as numerous summer courses. They used to call me to be the 'plus one' girl on d of e expeds as well, as singles weren't allowed.

Loads of ways to get experience and qualifications, but she needs to have a much more concrete plan than avoiding college for two years and then trying to get a job.

WelshMaenad Wed 09-Jan-13 05:46:35

This us my husband's field and I agree with Hysterical - if she wants to get anywhere she needs to stay on for A levels or do some sort of BTEC then look at a degree or HND course, or she's going to be outshone for every job going.

HollyBerryBush Wed 09-Jan-13 06:05:02

A person begins to be of compulsory school age on the prescribed day which either falls on or follows a person's fifth birthday. The prescribed days are currently 31st August, 31st December and 31st March, ie the term following the person's fifth birthday. A person ceases to be of compulsory school age on the school leaving date in the academic year in which they turns 16. The school leaving date is currently set as the last Friday in June. Raising the participation age (RPA, as set out in Chapter 1 of the Education and Skills Act 2008) does not affect the compulsory school age. However, its effect is that a person who ceased to be of compulsory school age but has not yet reached the age of 18 (or attained a level 3 qualification), is under a duty to participate in education or training. Source: DfE lawyers 2011-10-17

from the DofEducation site

www.education.gov.uk/vocabularies/educationtermsandtags/1840

meditrina Wed 09-Jan-13 07:08:11

"Not sure how she'll be found out"

Well, easily, if she attempts to claim any benefits!

NamingOfParts Wed 09-Jan-13 07:18:18

Martha - has she looked at joining the Army? At 16/17 she would go to the Army training college. She would learn lots of skills and get paid (well) at the same time.

outtolunchagain Wed 09-Jan-13 07:19:53

But the OP doesn't seem to be planing to claim anything, so how will they find out?

OP I think she needs to find a college course in something vaguely relevant, GCSEs are just not enough . The thing is at 18 she will competing with others who have done courses and things and she will be at a disadvantage .

sashh Wed 09-Jan-13 07:20:05

OP

Another course she might look at is BTEC Level 3 'unifrmed public services' - it's designed as prep for the army or police, fire service etc, but there are units on expeditions, both on land and water, health and safety and quite a few other units that link to her chosen career.

It's run at most colleges.

teacherandguideleader Wed 09-Jan-13 07:23:17

I would say doing some kind of level 3 qualification would be really beneficial - what about something like BTEC sport? Also, she should try to get some qualifications such as kayaking.

Does she do Duke of Edinburgh? This may be good for her - it will also show future employers she is serious about outdoors stuff. She could then go on to do a BEL qualification allowing her to take kids on expeditions - she would then be able to work with local authorities /schools who run D of E.

EvenIfYouSeeAPoppy Wed 09-Jan-13 07:30:56

People have given some good suggestions re qualifications.

Tbh, I think the issue here is not so much fitting into boxes or not - she would be seriously unwise to leave school at 16 without continuing into education or training of some kind.

Is she disenchanted with the school setting and fears further education will just be more of the same? Perhaps some visits to some colleges which offer the kinds of qualifications others have suggested might be in order.

I think if you let her go down the no-education route you will both be kicking yourselves in 5 years' time at the latest. It's admirable that you respect and support her choices, but you need to issue some strong guidance at this stage, I think.

Good luck.

In terms of being found out the school should identify who is going where, and the colleges and apprenticeship providers will have lists of who arrived where. The lea will investigate the gap in the middle. It used to be done by connexions as part of their tracking for career guidance and to support , but that role has passed back to the local authority. She might slip through the net but that's not exactly a good thing although it might seem it.

There are loads of live in college courses for outdoor education, they atte expensive, but if it's what she wants to do it's worth it! Also, some centres may take unger 18 apprentices, most don't though. She is much better getting a few a levels or an nvq and trying to get at least one qualification before she's 18 to show that she is serious our the serious holiday companies won't take her seriously! And getting a job in a serious company after pgl or jca is very difficult! I got interviewed by six or seven companies who told me that is I was serious about it I'd go for an apprenticeship with a company big on training which is a good two or thee year commitment and I stupidly gave up that opportunity and still regret it! Pgl and jca aren't great for training mainly bevause they won't train you to the extent the serious companies will (you may get one actual qualification a season with them whereas the serious companies you qualify you in whatever they can!)
Paddlesports qualifications are usually good (she's need to find a club that canoed and kayaked though), archery is good too and climbing/walking qualifications are great! Sailing will get her into foreign centres more easily later on but she can learn that later for a hell of a lot cheaper.

Snog Wed 09-Jan-13 07:35:28

If an employer has 20 plus applications for each job they will probably interview around 6 people based on whose application form is best. Ask your dd why she would be chosen for interview based on what she can put on her application form.

This should help her to start thinking along the right lines. Also ask her what she wants to be doing age 25 and age 55, and if she should become physically unable to work at an outdoor centre.

ErikNorseman Wed 09-Jan-13 07:37:02

I have heard from someone who should know that there will be no enforcement of the new school leaving age, so in effect it will still only be compulsory until 16. No reason really why she shouldn't do unpaid work for a while if it will lead to a career, but IMO she should do this alongside a basic college course. She will be more employable with at least a level 2 as well as work experience.
If she really won't do college then she'll have to get a part time job to fund herself.

And mountain bike qualies, in fact that combined with summer mountain leader is an epic combo.

landofsoapandglory Wed 09-Jan-13 07:42:00

She has to stay in education or training until she is 17 so can't claim benefits, or go to work full time. I am surprises you didn't know this, tbh. I would look at the ideas that the other posters have given you.

FiveGoMadInDorset Wed 09-Jan-13 07:42:58

There are courses out there for her to do, our county agricultural college Kingston Maurward does them here and I am sure they can't be the only ones.

bruffin Wed 09-Jan-13 07:55:37

She can qualify as a lifeguard at 16.The NPLQ is a week long course and costs about £200.
Our local leisure centre takes on about 6_8 casual staff every autumn term when the older ones go off to uni.

cory Wed 09-Jan-13 07:57:16

Snog Wed 09-Jan-13 07:35:28
"If an employer has 20 plus applications for each job they will probably interview around 6 people based on whose application form is best. Ask your dd why she would be chosen for interview based on what she can put on her application form."

This.

Remind her that the fact that a centre tell her that they can't offer her a job until she's 18 is absolutely no guarantee that they will offer her a job when she's 18. She won't be the only 18yo around wanting that job, and the others may well have qualifications she doesn't.

ILoveTIFFANY Wed 09-Jan-13 08:00:08

She sounds the same as my dd!! Bear grylls has nothing on her!!

She went off the rails in final school year, left home refused her exams etc.

Luckily college accepted her on their sports course ( 1 year) and she loves it!

After this she plans public services course. She also did army cadets.

bruffin Wed 09-Jan-13 08:01:51

She has to stay in education or training until she is 17 so can't claim benefits, or go to work full time

This is incorrect you can work full time

AmberLeaf Wed 09-Jan-13 08:04:37

Is she in year 11 now?

Im pretty sure that current year 11s will not be affected by the changes in leaving age.

Under the present law, the school leaving age is 16. After 2013 the education leaving age will rise to 17

My son is in year 11 now and that is what we have been led to believe.

Find your local Scout Activity Centre and see if they have any paid jobs available. They usually do over the summer. They also take 16 yr olds. I did this for 3 years after i left school.

You can live onsite and gain qualifications in all sorts from Kayaking to Abseiling.

The pay is crap, but most vocational jobs are!

whois Wed 09-Jan-13 08:11:17

If she's clever enough to take A levels, and she doesn't have a decent alternative plan lined up, she'd be a fool not to take them. You can't say at 16 exectly where she will end up, but having three decent A levels will never hold her back where as NOT having A levels will be a barrier to many jobs/ courses.

landofsoapandglory Wed 09-Jan-13 08:16:48

But Bruffin she still has to do part time education with full time work.

landofsoapandglory Wed 09-Jan-13 08:20:41

Amberleaf DS2 is in year 11. He is affected by the changes. We were made aware that he was going to be when we went for his options meeting in year 9. We have a meeting next week to makesure they choose the right path for them. He is doing A levels, which he would have done any way.

spg1983 Wed 09-Jan-13 08:21:05

I think that the 'part-time education' with full-time work can also refer to on-the-job training; the only thing that the Government want to put a stop to with regard to full-time jobs is pupils getting a very menial job at 16 which has no training and no chance of progression. I'm not 100% but I'm pretty sure that a full time job which has an element of ongoing training counts as fulfilling the part-time education stipulation.

AmberLeaf Wed 09-Jan-13 08:23:14

landof

Bruffins link explains it better.

https://www.gov.uk/know-when-you-can-leave-school

Those in year 10 now will be the first to be affected.

landofsoapandglory Wed 09-Jan-13 08:24:53

here Amber.

landofsoapandglory Wed 09-Jan-13 08:26:40

No Amber, those in Year 10 have to sty till their 18th birthday!

JenaiMorris Wed 09-Jan-13 08:29:32

Are there any evening courses in something like yachting that she might be interested in? Got to be worth a look imo.

Naming's suggestion is pretty extreme but it's an idea - I always wish I'd considered the armed forces but it didn't even occur to me when I was young.

redexpat Wed 09-Jan-13 08:35:05

I was looking at outdoor education as an option when I finished univeristy. I was told by a careers advisor that UCLan university of central lancashire had some courses for postgrads. Might be worth a look to see what ele there is available.

I think the army might be a good way in. You get trained and paid, and they have colleges for 16-18 year olds dont they?

Frankly I think she needs to research this a lot more than she has done.

bruffin Wed 09-Jan-13 08:39:24

If its anything like the apprenticeships the training can be in-house and not involve any formal exams.

NumericalMum Wed 09-Jan-13 08:41:59

YABU not to encourage your child to get an education if she is able to. She will need to support herself one day and having a gaping hole in her CV could label her as lazy indefinitely. How about a language course? Learning a language cab never be a disadvantage?

JenaiMorris Wed 09-Jan-13 09:03:52

If she is volunteering she won't have a gaping hole in her CV. I second the language course idea though.

mrsjay Wed 09-Jan-13 09:08:01

From this summer teenagers have to stay in full time education, apprenticeship or employment with part time education until 17,

they have this in our area already (scotland) they need to stay on till 17 if they dont have anything to go too, there is exceptions though, anyway OP what about a lesure centre or something like that, are you prepared to keep her for 2 years, I would encourage her to stay in school or find part time work, I wouldn't be very happy with a 16 yr old just leaving school do do nothing,

badguider Wed 09-Jan-13 09:26:28

University of the Highlands and Islands have a degree course in Adventure Tourism management and a certificate in OUtdoor Adventure studies... www.whc.uhi.ac.uk/courses/adventure-studies/outdoor-adventure-certificate-scqf-5

Realistically for entry level jobs these graduates are the people she'll be competing against. THe cert. might be available to her to start as a 16yr old but you'd have to ask them.... (this is also based in ft william where there are many jobs in this sector too so worth spending some time there, if she wants to leave education at 16 she'll have to be up to movign around the country independently to stay at live-in centres)

mrsjay Wed 09-Jan-13 09:30:17

University of the Highlands and Islands have a degree course in Adventure Tourism management and a certificate in OUtdoor Adventure studie

my friends son is doing this course are you my friend grin

badguider Wed 09-Jan-13 09:34:23

No, i'm not your friend - but I did a different postgrad course with UHI part-time and the photos and updates from teh adventure tourism course made me really envy

mrsjay Wed 09-Jan-13 09:37:15

the photos and updates from teh adventure tourism course made me really

Before another friend moved from fort william her son was going to do it after he left school but they moved ,

you can also do a course on viking studies with UHI grin DD is doing her course at a UHI college , not outdoorsy though

SoggySummer Wed 09-Jan-13 09:39:32

How about she looks at colleges that offer short, 1 year or part time course that offer qualifications that may help her application to the adventure careers stand out when she applies or open up more opportunities. Stuff like a foreign language - so she could work abroad or at least have the option, First aid courses - employers have to pay for these is they require them - it may just help her future applications stand out from someone not already qualified, a child care qualification perhaps or even a travel course - I did a 1 year travel course - more so open up opportunities or a sports course.
None of these may be ideal or an exact match for what she wants to do but all of these will pass the time constructively, open up more opportunities that may take her in a different direction or contribute to making her more employable with extra strings to her bow.

Jins Wed 09-Jan-13 09:39:45

www.reaseheath.ac.uk/subjects/fe-adventure-sports/

Would this be any use? A relative was in a similar situation and looked at it briefly

acceptableinthe80s Wed 09-Jan-13 09:41:05

i have a few friends who are in this line of work and they all studied at college. Either sports science or teaching sport/PE. I would encourage your daughter to look into further education if you can. Could she maybe look into volunteering or paid employment in a local health club or similar. My local council club has a climbing arena though i realise you may not live near one. If she's adamant that she doesn't want to study then i would expect her to find paid employment of some kind to support herself until she's able to pursue her chosen career.

SoggySummer Wed 09-Jan-13 09:42:03

Ooops lost a bit of my post there. Meant to say when I did my 1 year travel course at college 2 years ago (as a mature student) alot of the young ones went on to work in adventure type places. Colleges get the heads up when companies are recruiting and colleges help the students get their applications right. The young ones went onto work at holiday ctrs in the UK to UK based holiday companies abroad and places things like Camp America.

specialsubject Wed 09-Jan-13 09:46:00

she needs to get into whatever sport or sports it is, as a participant or an assistant coach if she already knows how to do it. This is combined with a job of some sort to earn some cash.

outdoor sports can be a career (Although not forever, but what career is?) but she needs experience, enthusiasm and all the real-world skills too. It is very hard work so you need to love what you are doing, and if you are doing it in the UK, love it whatever the weather!

TeddyBare Wed 09-Jan-13 10:00:17

In your position I'd be telling her she has to do some kind of course for the next 2 years. GCSEs aren't enough. Could she train as a Forest School leader? You can start childcare courses at 16 so that might be the same. Otherwise, could she do a Venture Baccalaureate or something like that? I'm not sure if there are many state school which offer it, but I know someone who did the course at Windermere and loved it.

manicbmc Wed 09-Jan-13 10:01:20

There are NVQs available all over the place, which whilst they might not be directly about outdoor stuff, might be useful.

Things like health and safety, courses in play etc.

It might be an idea for her to ask what sort of qualifications would be useful so she can see continuing her education as a means to an ends.

Get her to have a look at PGL. Im.not sute what the age restriction is for staff, but no qualifications needed and it is live in.

I did a year of it, my now DH did two years there and we both went on to work for another outdoor centre which pays very well and gives nationally recognised qualifications and real transferable skills.

Oh and at PGL those with lifeguard qualifications were paid.more - I know you can lifeguard from 16.

Bramshott Wed 09-Jan-13 10:05:14

Loads of brilliant advice and information on this thread - Mumsnet at its best!

fraktion Wed 09-Jan-13 10:20:15

I would draw up a list of 10 or so qualifications that are available locally or you are prepared to fund and say these are her choices. She can't leave school, she has to do something, she can either do something she enjoys that won't necessarily be useful later on and pursue outdoor activities at 18 (although she might want to do some research on how competitive the industry is and the various uni courses - Swansea are another) or something that will be very transferable later on but she chooses it you will choose from that list for her.

bruffin Wed 09-Jan-13 10:23:03

You have to be 18 for PGL, they wont even take college placements for under 18s

soontobeburns Wed 09-Jan-13 10:30:25

I dont know abou the law but I would get her to do her youth work ocn level 2. I am a youth worker by trade and everyone who does the work your daughter wants needs to be qualified.

I dont think she should be forced into education though if she doesn't want to.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Wed 09-Jan-13 10:31:14

I would say childcare, tourism or sports would all be good, relevant post 16 qualifications which will stand her in good stead with her job application at 18. I would suggest your DD tries to do voluntary work for 1 day a week at the weekend leaving the other for study. In fact she could ask the centre where she will be volunteering what qualifications they would like to see and then work towards those.

whiteflame Wed 09-Jan-13 11:21:13

Besides reading on here, I'm not overly informed on the school leaver changes. So ignore me if I'm wrong, but isn't 16-18 year olds "just doing voluntary work" exactly one of the scenarios that the new rules are trying to avoid?

She should be in some kind of education, I would tell her to get on with some qualifications. There's plenty of time for pursuing voluntary work/outdoors career once she has her A levels or equivalent. And if (more likely when) she discovers she needs the qualifications, they will be harder to go back and get. So why not do them while she has the chance?

RubyGates Wed 09-Jan-13 11:52:38

I don't think the learning has to be in an institution as such,
would something like this be suitable?
adlhomestudy.co.uk/

flow4 Wed 09-Jan-13 23:38:49

Also just to say that the laws relating to employing school-age children are tight (i.e. including your DD, since the school leaving age is rising). Sch-age children can't be employed for more than 2 hours on a school day, and work can't be during school hours. This includes unpaid/voluntary work for any profit-making business or trade, and even (say) in a charity shop. So although your DD has sorted out some voluntary work, this can't be within normal school hours, because any company breaking the rules risks court and a fine of £1000 (or up to £20,000 if they breach H&S requirements for young people).

Full DfE info here.

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 07:47:35

This is a bit confusing.

The school leaving age hasn't been amended but the following has been added:

"From the summer of 2013, a young person must do some part-time education or training until they’re 17."

Does that mean that from the old school leaving age a person can still work up to 40 hours as long as they are they are doing some part-time ed or training?

RubyGates Thu 10-Jan-13 07:48:19

That's interesting flow4, how would that work for home-ed teenagers who don't have "normal school hours" or stage-school children who are contracted for matinee performances I wonder?

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 07:55:18

According to this

Op's dd could do volunteering as being her staying in education if she did more than 20 hours a week.

"part-time education or training or volunteering more than 20 hours a week"

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 08:02:35

Rubygates the "school day" employment rules apply to home-ed children the same as school ed children.

Child performers need performance licenses. Info here

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 13:10:28

Actually juule, the DfE guidance seems to say the rules do NOT apply to home ed kids. I agree it's confusing!

exbrummie Thu 10-Jan-13 13:22:18

This is all so confusing.DS leaves school this summer and even the school don't seem to know what the new rules are.
When I asked at his last parents evening I got a vague"oh I'm not sure"
If the teachers don't know what hope is there!

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 13:24:31

Really Flow? I'll have another look.
Maybe it's something to do with local authority licensing. My HE children's licenses only authorise the same hours for term time as school ed children. I'll be checking over them again too smile

Socy Thu 10-Jan-13 13:35:42

Your daughter can do an Adventure Sports BTEC. Even if your local college doesn't offer one other colleges offer accommodation from 16 for those living too far away to travel - Reaseheath in Cheshire is one but there will be others. The BTEC includes work experience as part of the course and this can lead to permanent work in the future, or there is still the option of university either straight from college or at a future date.

Whether or not your daughter is allowed to work/volunteer if she can be persuaded to take further qualifications to enable her to go to uni at some point if she chooses to this would give her the widest choice of career options. And doing a BTEC in Adventure Sports doesn't restrict you to studying Adventure Sports at uni, provided you get good enough grades you can do a more academic degree too.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 16:46:05

juule, the bit I'm looking at is on page 6 of this DfE guidance

"In the restrictions outlined above there are
references to the school day and any day on
which the child has to go to school. In the case
of a restriction which relates to the school day
or a day on which the child has to go to school
the Act does not deal with the position of home
educated children..."

I don't know about HE licences, but your suggestion sounds plausible... I think they're making it up as they go along! hmm

HollyBerryBush Thu 10-Jan-13 16:56:14

A person begins to be of compulsory school age on the prescribed day which either falls on or follows a person's fifth birthday. The prescribed days are currently 31st August, 31st December and 31st March, ie the term following the person's fifth birthday. A person ceases to be of compulsory school age on the school leaving date in the academic year in which they turns 16. The school leaving date is currently set as the last Friday in June. Raising the participation age (RPA, as set out in Chapter 1 of the Education and Skills Act 2008) does not affect the compulsory school age. However, its effect is that a person who ceased to be of compulsory school age but has not yet reached the age of 18 (or attained a level 3 qualification), is under a duty to participate in education or training. Source: DfE lawyers 2011-10-17

from the DofEducation site

[[www.education.gov.uk/vocabularies/educationtermsandtags/1840 ]]

I don't know how many limes I've linked to the DofE. The school leaving age has NOT been raised.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 17:12:01

I think it's a question of terminology, Holly. The fact is, a young person in y11 now cannot (legally) leave school this year and just volunteer - they must participate in some learning/training.

"Raising the participation age (RPA) does not mean young people must stay in school; they will able to choose one of the following options post-16:

- full-time education, such as school, college or home education
- an apprenticeship
- part-time education or training if they are employed, self-employed or volunteering full-time (which is defined as 20 hours or more a week)".

So if the OP's DD was working or volunteering for 20+ hours/week, she could just do a part-time course - she wouldn't have to study full-time.

But it's clear as mud hmm - the DfE guidance for participation seems to directly contradict the DfE guidance for employment!

The full DfE guidance about participation in education is here.

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 17:13:53

"From the summer of 2013, a young person must do some part-time education or training until they’re 17."

our school area has had this for 2 years a friend of dd went back to school as he had left to get a job then was fired so went back to school until he was 17

mrsjay Thu 10-Jan-13 17:14:38

im in scotland though so maybe it has come in here before the rest of the country my dd left school 2 years ago

juule Thu 10-Jan-13 18:02:10

flow4 it's not a HE license, it's the work permit that the LA issues if a school-aged child wants to work. Looking at it the wording is ambiguous. I took it that only being allowed to work 2 hours on a school day was a restriction for all children and took it to apply to my HE children during term-time. Perhaps I was wrong. I never had cause to query/challenge it as they were employed outside school hours.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:33:55

Who was it who said (upstream) that they'd heard these new regulations weren't going to be enforced? I'm not surprised!

ErikNorseman Thu 10-Jan-13 19:39:49

Me. I heard it from a post 16 intensive education support worker.

flow4 Thu 10-Jan-13 19:47:52

Thanks Erik smile It sounds like it's going to be unenforceable because no-one actually knows what the rules are...

quoteunquote Thu 10-Jan-13 19:52:20

Has she done her NICAS qualifications yet?

If not get started, you can work your way through the books quite fast, depending how much time you put in, she will need them.

Yfronts Thu 10-Jan-13 21:04:53

I think she needs to get a qualification under her belt - BTEC in tourism or sport. She can volunteer during her hols.

Yfronts Thu 10-Jan-13 21:06:16

Most of the out door ed people I know are from teaching backgrounds.

outdooradventurer Sat 23-Feb-13 11:05:06

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Montybojangles Sat 23-Feb-13 11:13:42

reviewing.co.uk/careers.htm

Might be something useful here.

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