To "grass up" this childminder to ofsted?

(134 Posts)
Bluemonkeyspots Tue 08-Jan-13 11:55:14

Now i know the general mumsnet opinion is to mind your own business but please hear me out first, then you can tell me to mind my own business if you want ;)

Friend has started using one of her friends for childminding, she has her 2dc during the week, she has also recommended cm friend to another friend and her 1dc will be starting soon.

Cm has 3dc of her own and also watches 2dc full time for another parent.

That will be 8dc overall and 5 off them
are preschoolers.

When I asked about ratios friend said she knew cm did not have a variation for ratios but her and her friend were happy enough to carry on with the arrangment and the other mum who user the cm full time will be none the wiser as she will drop off before the other mindees arrive and pick up after they have gone home.

My problem with this is that i am a mum who uses childcare and i would be really angry if this happened to me, I don't know this mum at all but she is paying the same rate as other parents do but her dc will get much less attention and I'm also not sure that cm's insurance will be valid (not to mention car sears etc)

What would you do?

Saltycopporn Tue 08-Jan-13 11:57:57

Probably mind my own business

That's ludicrous. Either find a way to tell other parent or report. Not fair on the kids.

mindosa Tue 08-Jan-13 11:59:38

This is an outrageous ratio and at the very least the other parents should be made aware of it but I would probably keep my nose out of it

I would mind your own business to be honest.......this has absolutely nothing to do with you.

Bluemonkeyspots Tue 08-Jan-13 12:02:56

I don't know the other parent at all though, have no idea who she is so can't have a quiet word.

She may be fine with this but I just feel if it was me who was paying hundreds of pounds a week for a cm I would want to know what was going on.

mindosa Tue 08-Jan-13 12:04:10

yes but it isn't you

Bluemonkeyspots Tue 08-Jan-13 12:05:10

BETTY- if she had a car crash one day with all those dc in the car would you still think I should have minded my own business?

Genuine question.

I know I could cause a lot of grief for a lot of parents who need childcare but would other parents really not want to know if this was happening with their dc?

Tee2072 Tue 08-Jan-13 12:07:51

I don't know anything about OFSTED as they aren't in NI, but I thought own children didn't count? Or something?

I would report either way, as it's not safe at all!

DeWe Tue 08-Jan-13 12:07:56

Wasn't there some discussion in raising the number of children a cm is allowed to 8 preschoolers? I don't know whether that went through or whether it was just a discussion.
You could phone the council and ask.

well to be honest, I am sure the other woman will find out out exactly who the minder is looking after. When my DS was with a childminder I knew all the kids she looked after, whether they were there or not.

I am sure she is not going to go out and put all the kids in the car at once. I assume your friend would not put her kids with a total idiot and has asked the CM about car seats etc. Have you asked your friend about what happens if they need to go out in the car.......surely she wouldn't put her kids in danger. Do you even know what car she has?? Maybe she has a massive people carrier and can fit 5 kids in safely.

Genuine answer!

Fairylea Tue 08-Jan-13 12:10:57

I'd have to report or say something. Very dangerous and I'd hate to be the other parent who had no idea!

Dahlen Tue 08-Jan-13 12:13:11

They are breaking guidelines and voiding insurance. Should an accident happen, there will be serious repercussions. Even without one, unless the CM is fraudulently completing her paperwork, she runs the risk of being struck off if her records are randomly checked.

Changes in OFSTED may allow this sort of set up if the Coalition goes ahead with proposed changes. You could make an argument that if everyone is aware of the situation and happy with it then no real harm is being done (though it would be interesting to see if the parents would still be of that attitude if there was an accident requiring some form of compensation for treatment that was no longer available because of voided insurance...).

However, there is a parent here who is being kept in the dark, paying for a service she is no longer getting and whose children are potentially being put at risk. The words fraud, negligence and professional misconduct spring to mind. Not to mention about the possibility of an accident with 8 children to look after by one person...

It shouldn't be ignored.

If you're not by nature the reporting behind someone's back type, try being a bit manipulative and saying that some other parents have worked out what's going on because of the children saying they've been playing with X at CM's house, and that you are worried the parent who doesn't know about this will find out and may report to OFSTED.

Bluemonkeyspots Tue 08-Jan-13 12:14:54

She has a 7 seater (so room for six kids) and as the school is only one mile away all dc will be piling in.

Friend is fine with this as she often has a carfull, I suppose you are either see car safety as a big risk or you don't (I'm pretty anal about it)

Drip feeding now but the 2 dc of the parent i don't know are really young so it's not like they can even tell their mum what's going on.

TroublesomeEx Tue 08-Jan-13 12:16:18

Tbh I would speak with the CM directly or tell Ofsted.

I know someone who was reported for similar. She was innocent and a bit upset by it but she also understood that people take the welfare of children seriously.

Ofsted sent someone out to check up and see what was happening and all was well.

I don't know what the limits are, but they exist for a reason and her insurance would be invalidated if she had over the number of children she was allowed to.

StuntGirl Tue 08-Jan-13 12:17:26

I just googled it and the maximum is 6. I would report her.

A) The maximum number is there for a reason.
B) Even if the other parent is happy with it it's still breaking the rules and the worst case consequence of that could be an injured or killed child.
C) If she's willing to ignore that rule what else is she ignoring?

I don't really care if it directly affects me or not. I'd still report her because if anything happened to the children I wouldn't forgive myself for not doing. If Ofsted are ok with it then no harm, no foul.

TroublesomeEx Tue 08-Jan-13 12:17:27

Car safety is a big deal for me all of the time, but should be especially so for someone who is being paid to care for other people's children.

CwtchesAndCuddles Tue 08-Jan-13 12:18:01

I would report, without a second thought. It would be terrible if something were to happen to a child in her care.

For all those saying "mind your own business" how would you feel if your child were at risk?

If the op came on here saying that something had happend to a child and that she had turned a blind eye she would be flamed.

I think if you do report her you should get all the facts first. You are going by hearsay and you don't really know what this CM's deal is do you??

MonaLotte Tue 08-Jan-13 12:19:02

I would want to know YANBU.

fudgesmummy Tue 08-Jan-13 12:22:48

I am a childminder and can tell you that she would only be allowed to have more than 3 children under school age if it was to cover continuity of care-ie a parent wanting to increase their days/hours,a baby sibling of an EXISTING child or the childminder herself having a NEW baby of her own. We can now grant our own variations with out asking permission from ofsted but only for the above reasons with existing children NOT to take on new ones.
Her insurance WILL NOT be valid if she has more children in her care that is permitted by law.
I would say yes you should contact ofsted but tread carefully and only do so if you are absolutely 100 percent certain that you have the facts right,I was on the receiving end of completely unfounded complaints from a malicious neighbour a few years ago and the resulting visits from ofsted were devastating to me.

fudgesmummy Tue 08-Jan-13 12:26:18

Also to add that a minder working on their own can not have more than 6 children under 8 years under any circumstances

InNeatCognac Tue 08-Jan-13 12:28:10

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 12:31:38

I am not sure I would not be able to keep quiet, it is children's safety at risk so pretty important IMO.

I agree with what others have asaid and you do need to make sure you know exactly what is happening. Are they actually all there at the same time or are some at school/pre-school.

If she is doing nothing wrong then Ofsted checking it out shouldn't be a problem. You may able to look her info up on the Ofsted website if she is registered, not sure what info it shows about childminders - I know the pre-school records show the number of children they are allowed to take etc.

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 12:33:35

Without knowing the ages of the children it is impossible to judge what she is doing.

I care for up to 10 children at any one time but 7 of them are over 8 so they effectively don't count in my numbers.

Also you do not know the other parent. How do you know what her arranement is with the minder? If none of the children are yours then its really none of your concern.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 12:38:40

Just report it and let Ofsted look into it/establish the facts. You won't have to give your name. If she's doing nothing wrong then she has nothing to worry about.

"If none of the children are yours then its really none of your concern", nokidshere? The welfare of children is everybody's concern, surely? It's attitudes like that that lead to tragedies like the Victoria Climbe case.

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 12:42:41

But the OP doesn't know anyone involved, her friend is using the minder and she is simply making assumptions. If she or anyone else has seen 8 children piling into a 6 seater, or a minder looking after 8 under 5's or similar then fair enough, definitly report - but not just based on an assumption.

If she was really concerned she would ask her friend the exact details of the children being minded and how many were in the car before reporting.

Reporting someone without facts (even second hand ones) to back it up is just malicious.

PaellaUmbrella Tue 08-Jan-13 12:43:09

If you're absolutely certain of the facts, then I'd report her.

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 12:44:28

Safeguarding is EVERYONE's responsibility!

Some outrageous comments on here!

BlingBubbles Tue 08-Jan-13 12:46:02

Is she a registered cm? If she is when ofsted come and inspect they will see that there are too many children and she will be shut down or told to get rid of some of the mindees.

Twinklestarstwinklestars Tue 08-Jan-13 12:46:56

Even if she granted her own variation she should consult with parents and have proof she has. I've seen a few posts from childminders thinking they can have 6 preschoolers now, maybe she's got confused?! Is her husband registered too and that's how she's getting numbers?

I think I would report to be on the safe side.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 12:47:23

It's not malicious nokidshere. Ofsted will look into it and if they find she's done nothing wrong that'll be the end of it. No harm done.

BlingBubbles Tue 08-Jan-13 12:47:40

Oh and to add I would find out the facts and report it, as someone said above safeguarding children is everyone's business!

Mrskbpw Tue 08-Jan-13 12:49:37

If you've got her Ofsted registration number you can look her up online and it will say how many children she's registered for. I'm registered for 3 under-5s, but as my own son is two, I'm only allowed an additional 2 children. It says this on my registration.

I don't think reporting her is malicious. If she's not doing it, then there's nothing for Ofsted to 'find out' is there?

hoodoo12345 Tue 08-Jan-13 12:50:13

You should definitely report it and let Ofsted decide.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 12:50:21

She won't be "suspended whilst Ofsted investigate", they'll make an unnounced visit.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 12:51:16

Sorry, unannounced visit.

Will the CM be driving 8 DC in a 7 seater car (i.e. without seats for 2 DC)? if this is the case then there is no "but she is a careful driver" about it. Children not properly restrained in cars die.

Twinklestarstwinklestars Tue 08-Jan-13 12:58:19

It may not say numbers on the ofsted website cos they're removing all the conditions on the new certificates.

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 13:05:33

But she doesnt know what she is reporting?

Does the OP really think her friend would let a cm transport her own children in a car with no restraints? Or even in a car when any child is not restrained? Surely it wouldn't be hard for her to find out the real facts from her friend before doing anything else?

Aside from the car (which is obviously a criminal offence and should be reported) the rest of it is woolly at best. How many children does she have at one time, how old are they, are some in school, does she have an assistant - there are so many factors that depend now on the individual childminders circumstances.

My own certificate said "6 children under 8, no more of whom can be under 5 and of those 5 only one could be under 1"

My new certificate that arrived on Friday says "can care for children in accordance with EYFS guidelines"

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 13:08:18

and how come the friend who is using the childminder isn't reporting her? Is she happy to have her childrens safety put at risk?

RyleDup Tue 08-Jan-13 13:13:47

I would probably contact ofsted with my concerns, as I would be worried her insuance wouldn't be valid if she is going over her numbers. If it turns out shes done nothing wrong, well theres not a problem is there.

hammyimo Tue 08-Jan-13 13:14:27

I think it's up to those using her services to complain if there are issues. It's up to them to check out their childminder's credentials/references. I doubt they'd leave their dc there if they thought it unsafe.

Don't really see why you would want to get involved with this.

DoodlesNoodles Tue 08-Jan-13 13:15:53

I would send an email to ofsted give them the facts, and let them decide whether or not to do anything.

OnwardBound Tue 08-Jan-13 13:16:56

If I had concerns I would query this arrangement with Ofsted and report if deemed necessary.

As so many of already said, child protection is EVERYONE'S issue.

If I was the parent of the original child i would be beyond angry if I discovered that my childminder was taking above the allowed number of mindees. The rules are there for the reason of the children's health, safety and best interests.

If Ofsted investigate and discover nothing untoward than no harm done. The childminder may be a little disconcerted by the investigation but as a professional person caring for vulnerable children must accept this safeguarding as part of their role [as nurses, doctors, teachers, etc also do].

However if Ofsted discover some discrepancy they will decide how to act.

And you will have done your civic duty OP!

FunnysInLaJardin Tue 08-Jan-13 13:20:36

I would be furious if this happened to me. DS2 is with a CM and I would hate to think of him being one of 5 children. I would report her on an anonymous basis

other mum who user the cm full time will be none the wiser as she will drop off before the other mindees arrive and pick up after they have gone home

^^ This is precisely why I think you should report it. I am also a parent who uses childcare (not a cm admittedly) but I would want to know if my children were being put at risk by someone's greed.

It may be that the cm's own children are above the limit and aren't counted. If so, the cm will be cleared by Ofsted and that's that. I couldn't in all conscience let something like this slide though, just in case.

Safeguarding is EVERYONE's responsibility! I wholeheartedly agree.

chocoluvva Tue 08-Jan-13 13:22:40

"the other mum who uses the cm will be none the wiser" shock.

Bluemonkeyspots Tue 08-Jan-13 13:22:46

Nokid, my friend is fine with this arrangement, she feels it's safe regarding the car as it's only a mile each way.

I agree it's up to them who use her service to complain but like I said in the op my concern is the parent who knows nothing about it.

I do know the childminder, i know she is only newly registered. Friend has confirmed that she will be over her ratios but is ok with this.

Childminder had said to friend that the car won't be a problem as like most large cars cm's has tinted windows in the back so nobody can see how many dc are in it.

Friend is fine with all this and that is up to her but it's the parent that knows nothing I was asking about.

My dc go to a nursery (one of the biggest reasons for this is I would not trust someone else driving them about, I would be a nervous wreck at work) but if my nursery were breaking ratio rules I would want to know.

Perhaps this parent will be like my friend and not care about ratios/car seats in which case if i did phone ofsted 1 person would be out a job and three parents would have no childcare confused

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 13:27:05

I think it is completely irrelevant whether the parents are ok with it or not!

You have every right to be concerned, it sounds more awful the more you write about it.

It is such a shame as there are so many amazing childminders out there but these stories are scary!

CanYouGetDownPlease Tue 08-Jan-13 13:27:11

Please report her - it is not your duty to establish the full facts, OFSTED are the regulating body and will investigate. If you are mistaken, then it's no big deal.
I'm really disappointed by some of the comments on this thread. Safeguarding young children is everybody's responsibility. A childminder is potentially abusing a families trust and it's not acceptable. Ratios stand for a valid reason.
OP don't worry about reporting, you can do it anonymously and can be rest assured you have done the right thing.

HopAndSkip Tue 08-Jan-13 13:34:00

by all means find out who the other mum is and let her know so she can choose if she'd like to go elsewhere. But no need to report her, what if you do and then all the parents have nowhere to send their children and can't work for a few weeks while they sort something else out on no notice, and then have to distrupt the children with a new setting. It's not really fair, and not for you to decide.
Also preschool staff:children ratios in a nursery are 1:8, so they are getting more "attention" than they would at a nursery.

MsVestibule Tue 08-Jan-13 13:35:05

It's completely irrelevant whether some, all, or none of the parents involved with this arrangement are happy with it. The ratio rules are there for a very good reason and as for driving a car with more children than seats... shock. Yes, I know 20 years ago this was perfectly acceptable, but it isn't now.

I've never reported anybody for anything since I was about 6, but I would report this and let Ofsted establish the facts.

caramelwaffle Tue 08-Jan-13 13:36:19

As Cognac pointed out - she may have an assistant.

Or consider this; a childminder that I previously interviewed as a potential childminder also let me know that her husband was a registered childminder (living together): this would impact on the numbers they could have, yes?

landofsoapandglory Tue 08-Jan-13 13:36:39

I'd report it. It's the safety of the children that is at risk here. I couldn't know what was going on and not do something about it, TBH.

FergusSingsTheBlues Tue 08-Jan-13 13:40:05

I wouldnt feel at all omfortable handling that many kids on my own. Id secretly call ofsted

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 13:40:49

Hop so you would ignore the fact that the children may not be safe in that time just so they aren't without a childminder. Would you say the same if the childminder was doing something hideous to the children because it would be so much worse if the parents had no one to look after their children!

The ratio for 1:8 is for 3+ so judging by the OPs post 1 or 2 are younger than this as they cannot talk so the ratio would be at most 1:4.

Also in a nursery there is never just 1 member of staff to 8 children, there has to be a minimum of 2 adults there so not really comparable. its not about 'attention' its about safety.

You are right though - it is not for the OP to decide it is for Ofsted as they are the governing body and if she is not doing anything wrong then its no big deal!

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 13:42:51

caramel it would influence the numbers but only if the husband was there at all times when they had more children of course.

If she had an assistant then the parent wouldn't have said that the childminder knew she was over her ratios (or did I misread that) but was ok with it.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 13:49:25

The childminder won't lose her job! If she is caring for more children than she is allowed to she'll be reprimanded by Ofsted and more closely monitored from now on to make sure she doesn't do it again. Like MsVestibule said, it doesn't matter whether or not the other parent is happy with this situation - this childminder is breaking the law and a child could be hurt as a result. How can she watch so many children effectively? To be honest, I'm shock your friend is ok with it.

teenagersmother Tue 08-Jan-13 13:51:13

The ratios for childminders are different than nursery so as Mrs Melons says they are not really comparable.

I was all set to defend the childminder as to be frank. its perfectly possible to manage those numbers and still provide a good experience and care for those children-depending on their ages that is.

However, when I read that she is squashing them in the car I lost any sympathy. That is disgraceful and just plain wrong. Any insurance would be invalid- car and childminders own public liability insurance. My understanding is that to work without valid insurance is illegal anyway.

It's not a situation I would be happy with as a parent using childcare but I don't know if Ofsted can act on 3rd party information. You could call the helpline to check it out. The number is 0300 123 1231.

Jelly15 Tue 08-Jan-13 13:53:39

She may have a registered assisstant and maybe she has a lot on her books but many off them are parttime. I have five under fives on my books but some only attend two days and a couple attend three days so I never go over my numbers.

If you are 100% sure of her being over then maybe you should report her as the children's sfety is at risk and insurance will be void.

caramelwaffle Tue 08-Jan-13 13:55:29

MrsMelons Yes, good point, and it was one reason amongst others why I employed someone else.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 13:55:34

Of course Ofsted can act on 3rd party information! If the children were being abused do you think the parents would have to to report it before Ofsted could take action?!

PatButchersEarring Tue 08-Jan-13 13:58:44

Absolutely report it.

If she is knowingly (or unknowingly) going over her ratios, then she is both thoroughly unprofessional and she is posing a risk to the children. Ratio's are there for a reason. Let Ofsted know your concerns and leave it to them to investigate.

Having recently registered as a CM myself, this sort of thing makes my blood boil! There is little wonder that the profession has such a lousy reputation when there seems to be a small but significant minority of so called childminders who show such a flagrant disregard for regulations and the welfare of their minde

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 14:01:19

I had to make a complaint to Ofsted once as a childminder was dropping a child off at my pre-school and she called him vile names in front of the staff. It was not the first time I had heard of her doing it.

When I spoke to the helpline they said they may visit the childminder and that all they would do is ask the childminder if it was true and if they said no then they would just keep the info on file!!!

I was shock

It may be nothing comes of it as they may ask her when she has the children or whether they all go in the car etc and she may lie or they may turn up and she has too many children there at that time.

teenagersmother Tue 08-Jan-13 14:05:24

AlexanderS
When I mentioned 3rd party information I meant " my friend says " as opposed to" I have seen/ heard". That's all . Don't be so rude !

Delayingtactic Tue 08-Jan-13 14:06:18

I would be mighty pissed if I found out my CM was doing this and would be finding a new one sharpish. I would report without a second thought, especially after that tinted windows comment. It's all grand until someone gets hurt.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 14:12:32

MrsMelons, in your case it was more difficult to prove that the childminder had done something wrong (the pre-school staff should have informed the mum). But this case is cut and dried. All Ofsted has to do is turn up unexpectedly and if she has too many children they'll catch her out.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 14:14:57

It doesn't matter where the OP has got her suspicions from teenagersmother. All suspicions concerning the welfare of children should be investigated. I think some very silly things have been said on this thread.

Proudnscary Tue 08-Jan-13 14:20:09

Mumsnet is notorious for being faux achingly laid back about anything like this and the poster is invariably branded hysterical or nosy.

Bullshit.

There are children that could be at risk - maybe they're not, maybe you don't have the full facts but you are acting genuinely and with concern - so I would report it yes.

TroublesomeEx Tue 08-Jan-13 14:20:15

I agree AlexanderS

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 14:22:41

*Nokid, my friend is fine with this arrangement, she feels it's safe regarding the car as it's only a mile each way.

I agree it's up to them who use her service to complain but like I said in the op my concern is the parent who knows nothing about it.

I do know the childminder, i know she is only newly registered. Friend has confirmed that she will be over her ratios but is ok with this.

Childminder had said to friend that the car won't be a problem as like most large cars cm's has tinted windows in the back so nobody can see how many dc are in it.

Friend is fine with all this and that is up to her but it's the parent that knows nothing I was asking about.*

Well in that case you actually know for a fact that she is transporting children without enough seats and restraints and regardless of anything else that should definately be reported.

CinnabarRed Tue 08-Jan-13 14:23:13

I'd report without a backward glance.

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 14:25:02

Alexander sorry should have said we informed the mum and she already had concerns anyway about the Cms behaviour but couldn't put her finger on it. Yes I understand that it would be hard to prove but I was surprised they were so open about what they would do.

We had already spoken to the parent before I called Ofsted but Ofsted told me not to tell the parent due to confidentiality. It was too late as I had already done it and didn't actually agree with them as it was before the child was signed into our care and was in front of all the parents as well so fairly publicly.

tinkletinklestar Tue 08-Jan-13 14:31:24

Under new eyfs for Childminders we can now approve our own variations, so if we have the space and are able to manage without jeopardise any of the children's interest we can look after more than 3 under 5.

DeWe Tue 08-Jan-13 14:35:33

People will notice the numbers of children she has getting in/out of the car. Round here, I'm sure it would get reported as I've know Cms be reported for smaller things.

A friend got reported for having 6 children-she didn't, but child she had before preschool came to the car with their mum to pick up something he'd left, and automatically got into the car while they were talking. Someone walked past, saw too many children in the car and reported. As she had no had any other complaints and had been doing it for ages, they came round, checked the car seats in the car, checked her car insurance, and looked at her records showing exactly which child came when. It was traumatic for her waiting, but she accepted that they had to check such things.

plantsitter Tue 08-Jan-13 14:36:11

I would tell the other parent. Even if it were fine by OFSTED, if I found out my child minder was actively keeping a secret from me I would be furious and wonder what else she was keeping quiet.

meboo Tue 08-Jan-13 14:43:20

You can now have no more that 6 kids under the age of 8 years.

I am on the fence here as their maybe a genuine confusion regarding ratios. The revised eyfs was not clear about circumstances that numbers could be altered and Ofsted told my friend who is also a childminder she could have six babies if she wanted. Luckily i know that was inaccurate and I was able to explain the circumstances that she could have more than three under five but there was and still is a lot of confusion regarding changing numbers. When the dfe wrote the framework they should have made it all crystal clear.

IF the childminder knows and understands the regulations then report her if she is deliberately breaching them. Be clear that all the children are cared for together though as some children may be part time.

Today I had three toddlers this morning and then another come at lunchtime. One goes home at lunchtime and another arrives ten minutes later. One child has been collected early and then the other is asleep.

I have a seven leader car and I have four toddler seats and two seats for older ones. I also carry a spare car seat incase i hand a child over at the school and need a different type of car seat.

Do not ignore but check you have correct details. Nobody should ignore child protection however establish the facts first Ofsted will investigate and will probably do a full inspection because of welfare concerns. In this circumstance they will establish facts.

If childminder is definitely over minding or over using the car her insurance and registration will be void.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 16:57:01

It is not the OP's job to check if the childminder knows and understands the regulations lesbianmummy1, it is Ofsted's.

vintagewarrior Tue 08-Jan-13 17:03:16

How can anyone say mind your own business?
For christs sake, if something happened, fire / accident, how would she cope? & you'd never forgive yourself.
I knew drug dealing childminder, had to report it!
Children need protection. This woman is putting £ infront of safety.
You lot are mental sometimes.

shewhowines Tue 08-Jan-13 17:09:27

I was on the fence but the car seat issue is the clincher for me. She is knowingly willing to put children into danger and is willing to lie and conceal this. What else is she willing to do that we don't know about?

Tell Ofstead.

Lilithmoon Tue 08-Jan-13 17:16:46

Report for sure.

Those saying butt out, are you serious? It's not about the CM, or the other parents and their need for childcare. It's about the safety and welfare of the children in her care, and if you don't think that's important then shame on you.

EnjoyResponsibly Tue 08-Jan-13 17:35:53

Report.

If she's all above board she's got no problems and won't mind Ofsted asking questions will she.

If she's not, we'll oh dear, but all the Parents have an absolute right to have 100% transparency on their Dcs care.

AlexanderS what i said is the childminder may be mistaken not that op must check childminder knows regulation

i also said report her if childminder does know so e.g. if she really told op friend she knew it was too many children report her or if she has too many in car.

It could be mix up though as she has not been seen with these children it is based on hearsay also what happened to asking question?

if it deliberate it's different to a new childminder making a mistake that she could correct there and then without endangering any children just by somebody asking if she knows she has too many children. Childminder may just tell new parent she made a mistake or pass her to another childminder.

JustFabulous Tue 08-Jan-13 17:49:06

I am puzzled as to why so many people are saying for you to MYOB. Wouldn't they want to know if their childminder was doing this? If it was their child not getting the care they deserved and the care you are paying for. Ratios are there for a reason and worse case a child could be injured or even die because the CM had too many children to be able to care for them safely.

Children's safety and well being should be everyones business.

MrsKeithRichards Tue 08-Jan-13 17:56:17

How does pick which child goes unrestrained?

Report.

JustFabulous Tue 08-Jan-13 17:57:10

"Childminder had said to friend that the car won't be a problem as like most large cars cm's has tinted windows in the back so nobody can see how many dc are in it."

shockshock Oh my God.

ravenAK Tue 08-Jan-13 18:01:03

I'm quite laid back about safety, really, but if I had two dc too young to tell me what was going on, & I found out that they were being piled 8 kids to 6 car seats for a daily school run AND that the other two mums had conspired with the CM to keep this from me...

...well, let's just say Ofsted would be the bloody least of her worries!

I'm no fan of Ofsted (my own CM had endless grief from them - in the end we employed her as a nanny to cut them out of the loop) - but I think this needs reporting.

If you have got your facts wrong, that's fine, isn't it? CM can just explain to Ofsted that the complaint made to them is incorrect.

The CM could have turned away the business or taken on a p/t assistant to watch the pre-schoolers whilst she does the school run. Presumably she did neither because this way is much more profitable for her.

It's really quite indefensible.

SantasENormaSnob Tue 08-Jan-13 18:06:03

I would report.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 18:52:22

Lesbianmummy, it doesn't matter if it is based on hearsay - as I said further up the thread any concern about child welfare must be investigated (it was a lack of willingness to investigate child protection concerns based on hearsay that allowed Jimmy Saville to get with away with what he did for a lifetime). The OP cannot be expected to investigate/"ask questions" herself, she should just pass her concern on to Ofsted and let their qualified inspectors do their job. I really don't see what the problem is - you can't help but wonder if the childminders on this thread who are reluctant for Ofsted to get involved have aspects of their own practice they'd rather Ofsted didn't know about. As somebody further up the thread said, real professionals accept that they need to be regulated.

MrsReiver Tue 08-Jan-13 18:53:57

I'm a childminder - report her. Please.

FutTheShuckUp Tue 08-Jan-13 18:56:19

Ratios exist for the safety of the children in the childminders/nurseries care.
It really really worries me how people say 'its none of your business' when it comes to the safety and welfare of children! Child protection is EVERYBODY'S business!

An unrestrained child in a car puts other children in the car at risk when they fly about the cabin in a collision. Even if it is her own children without belts, she is risking the other children.

AlexanderS I have no worries if Ofsted turn up at my door they are more than welcome to all I am saying is from a person who knows somebody

Who knows somebody perspective we don't have facts if this person knows its true then report but if its Chinese whispers then be careful. I am sure whatever your circumstances are if your boss at works receives a complaint every time somebody who knows somebody who overheard something complained you would find it hard.

If somebody phoned social services constantly because some bodies aunts neighbours best friend thought she saw you leave your child alone it would be awkward.

Nobody has said not to report any potential welfare concerns,

What has been said is to ensure it not based on hearsay

KellyElly Tue 08-Jan-13 20:19:14

nokidshere Are you a child minder? If so your comments are an absolute disgrace. I'm thankful I don't have someone like you looking after my children. Its like a social worker coming on here and saying someone is malicious to report possible child abuse unless they are absolutely sure of the facts and to mind their own business.

KellyElly Tue 08-Jan-13 20:27:27

Who knows somebody perspective we don't have facts if this person knows its true then report but if its Chinese whispers then be careful. I am sure whatever your circumstances are if your boss at works receives a complaint every time somebody who knows somebody who overheard something complained you would find it hard. This is involving the welfare of children, not an adult working environment. If its unfounded then she will be investigated and cleared of any wrongdoing. She's only going to get in trouble is she is going againt the guidelines she has as a registered child minder.

Bluemonkeyspots Tue 08-Jan-13 20:29:22

Lesbian- it's not someone's aunts neighbours bestfriend though.

I was told all this from someone who is involved smack bang in the middle off it, why would she make up her cm told her this is what she is planning to do?

She obviously thinks it's ok but like I said before it had been brought up about the original mum finding out but they had agreed between them she did not need to me.

My issues before reporting her was

1/ the original mum might be as lax as the other patents and just be happy her dc are settled.

2/ even though she is breaking the law she might still be a bloody good cm (it's possible even if not someone I would want watching my dc)

I was looking for advice and thank you to everyone who has posted

LadyWidmerpool Tue 08-Jan-13 20:34:28

Report it. If she isn't doing anything wrong she won't get in trouble.

Bluemonkeyspots you know the situation in answer to you

point 1 laxness does not make it ok to put children at risk deliberately

Point 2 that is why I was giving other opinion as maybe a MISTAKE and she may be very good at her job just misinformed

You know the situation you decide.

I can not tell from here if it is an accident or intentional I just know how Ofsted can make mistakes that can be critical.

Nothing to hide Ofsted won't find anything but it is still distressing for all involved.

realcoalfire Tue 08-Jan-13 20:49:58

I would stay out of it.Maybe some of the pre-schoolers are due to start school this term, maybe she is taking on an assistant.
I don't see whty the children are necessarily at risk.Plenty of mothers cope perfectly well with 8 or more DC of their own

Amytheflag Tue 08-Jan-13 20:51:24

I would report. It's a big thing to trust a stranger with your LO. I feel so sorry for the mum who doesn't know.

KellyElly Tue 08-Jan-13 20:53:44

Plenty of mothers cope perfectly well with 8 or more DC of their own but she isn't a mother is she. She's a professional accredited to look after children withing rules and guidelines which are there for a reason i.e. So children are not put at risk. If she's doing this she's breaking the law and possibly putting children at risk. Do you advocate this then?

MrsMelons Tue 08-Jan-13 20:54:10

Not many people have 8 DCs almost the same age, that is very different than having 8 children of varying ages - some of which would have to be older than 4 (in most cases).

Even if they are going to school soon or will employ an assistant - the point is she isn't at this moment so the children are not being cared for as they should be according to the 'rules' and the CM insurance would be invalid if anything happened.

hammyimo Tue 08-Jan-13 20:56:13

I am puzzled as to why so many people are saying for you to MYOB. Wouldn't they want to know if their childminder was doing this?

Because you would know. If your dc wasn't happy i just think you'd know. I've used nurseries and childminders and schools for years - you just know if your dc is not happy ime.

For all the people saying "it won't do her any harm to be reported to Ofsted if she's done nothing wrong". How would you feel to be suspended at work pending investigation? It's stressful, humiliating, extremely worrying and can damage your reputation for good. I've known people at work (used to work in public sector) who became clinically depressed following investigations following unfounded complaints.

By all means tell the other parent if you think the information really is correct. But it's really up to the users to report her if there's a problem.

I know my cm bends over backwards to accommodate people. So that might mean her mum comes round to take her own dc on occasion, or her dh does a late shift to account for her own 3 on occasion. She went down the road today with what seemed like a huge amount of dc. But her assistant was also there and her dh was also there.

I think you need to be very very sure of your facts before you report people.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Tue 08-Jan-13 20:59:04

I never understand why so many people say mind your own business when potentially the safety of a child could be at stake. They would probably also be the first to say that someone should have done something if anything were to happen. The rules are there for a reason!

NcNcNcNc Tue 08-Jan-13 21:04:07

i feel sick for the mother who doesn't know sad

Report.

KellyElly Tue 08-Jan-13 21:04:47

For all the people saying "it won't do her any harm to be reported to Ofsted if she's done nothing wrong". How would you feel to be suspended at work pending investigation? It's stressful, humiliating, extremely worrying and can damage your reputation for good. I've known people at work (used to work in public sector) who became clinically depressed following investigations following unfounded complaints. Again a work enviroment relating to adults. I would imagine any stress or humiliation would be nothing compared to what one of the parents would feel if something happened to their child. If you choose to work with children you absolutely must stick within the rules and guidelines. There is also the expectation that you will be on occasion scrutinised more closely than those in other professions and rightly so.

bigbluebus Tue 08-Jan-13 21:06:12

If I am reading this correctly, then the CM will be breaking the law regarding seatbelts if she carries more under 12s than she has seatbelts in her car - so she cannot carry more than 6 children in her 7 seater car and she will be looking after 8 chldren. I can't imagine she would be taking Secondary school age children 1 mile to school in the car, so am assuming they are all Primary school age She will be in trouble with the Police, never mind OFSTED if she gets caught.

thebody Tue 08-Jan-13 21:08:45

Hi op. as an ex cm who worked full time and kept to all the rules re Ofsted, insurance, planning, obs, healthy meals, and bloody well PAID TAX it pissed me off no end to be undercut by untrained,( yes cms are trained now at college) and undermining my legitimate business.

It's illegal and wrong and the children could come to harm and parents won't have a leg to stand on here in case if injury or worse.

Report please please....

My DC might not know to be unhappy about being allowed to travel unrestrained in a car. Safety decisions need to be made by informed adults working within the confines of the law.

thebody Tue 08-Jan-13 21:10:40

Er and the mother who doesn't know may well do so but turning a blind eye.

It's cheap child care and anyone sensible looks at the ofsted cert and insurances Certs.

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 21:12:58

nokidshere Are you a child minder? If so your comments are an absolute disgrace. I'm thankful I don't have someone like you looking after my children. Its like a social worker coming on here and saying someone is malicious to report possible child abuse unless they are absolutely sure of the facts and to mind their own business.

Firstly I have already said that the car situation is a criminal offence and a safeguarding issue and needs to be reported. The car situation wasn't mentioned in the original post.

Secondly I pointed out that the ratios are not necessarily wrong - it depends on the ages and times of the children - the OP doesn't give this information.

And Thirdly, apart from the situation with the car no-one has said that any child is being mistreated or abused. Just because some people feel that 8 is too many for them doesn't mean it is for someone else.

LemonBreeland Tue 08-Jan-13 21:14:56

You know for certain that she is going to be breaking the law regarding car seats. I would report purely for that.

Never mind the care in her house, and whether she might give good care there. Anyone who can willingly take those risks is not a good childcarer.

KellyElly Tue 08-Jan-13 21:22:37

Nokids your comment If none of the children are yours then its really none of your concern. is what I found the most shocking of all your posts. For someone who works in child care this does not exactly show someone who feels a duty of care to children. You seem a lone voice amongst the child minders on this thread who are saying to report her. I would have imagine as a child minder you would be aware that the rules and guidelines are there for a reason. Noone is talking about abuse but cetainly neglect would be a fitting word apart from the fact she is breaking the law! I would imagine any parents with children in your care would find your attitude utterly at odds with the job you do as well.

rainrainandmorerain Tue 08-Jan-13 21:32:56

Report. No question.

Car issue is a big deal - but she is also LYING TO THE PARENTS of at least one set of children about their care. About what they are getting when they pay her and the circumstances of the children's care.

That is totally unacceptable. I wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her.

AlexanderS Tue 08-Jan-13 21:39:12

"How would you feel to be suspended at work pending investigation?"

hammyimo, read the thread! She will not be suspended at work pending investigation. She will be subject to a unannounced visit by Ofsted, who will then give her a chance to get her shit together if she is doing something naughty.

nokidshere Tue 08-Jan-13 21:41:08

I already told her to report it immediately as soon as she said that the children would be in the car unrestrained.

The rest of it is neither here nor there without knowing the ages and times of the children involved. At no time was abuse or mistreatment mentioned by the OP.

It would take but a few seconds to clarify the details with her friend - so why not do that and then give ofsted (who frankly are a waste of space) more salient facts to work with?

The fact that you think I am a "lone voice" amongst childminders shows simply that I have my own mind and do not follow the pack thoughts of everyone else. Had the OP said originally that the children were at risk (in the car) then I certainly would have amended my first response as I did afterwards.

Nothing in the original thread threw up any concerns for the children - simply that one of the parents might have been lied to - but the OP has no idea what the arrangements with that parent and minder are or indeed whether she is over her numbers or not.

Someone not in childcare might well see me with hoardes of children and feel that they should report me for being over my numbers - I am often seen out and about with up to 8 or 9 children, occasionally more. In the 13 years that I have been minding I have never once been over my numbers but can see how someone else might think that I had.

So just to clarify - I amended my response to report immediately as soon as the OP said that 8 children would be in a 6 seater car with no restraints or even dedicated seats.

And any of my parents would tell you that I am overprotective of children rather than underprotective and I would be the first to report any abuse or neglect of any kind - even it was a close friend.

itsallinmyhead Tue 08-Jan-13 21:42:13

Am I missing something? It's not the OPs responsibility to investigate all the facts.

Where there are concerns for the safety of a child/ children she has a duty to report it.

PiccadillyCervix Tue 08-Jan-13 22:08:51

I'd grass

realcoalfire Tue 08-Jan-13 22:34:13

You don't know anything though! If I am reading your post correctly, this CM is a friend of a friend .You don't even know her,You are hearing everything second hand ! Does your friend really know what hours each of the 8 children are doing?
Maybe some of the children are mornings only and some are afternoons only.I think reporting someone on hearsay is bad form

hammyimo Tue 08-Jan-13 22:53:45

I think that's what I've been trying to say realcoal but you put so much better. hearsay.

thebody Tue 08-Jan-13 23:02:13

But if then she is within her ratios and all insurances are fine then Ofsted will see this and all will be ok.

Ofsted arnt a waste if time to he fair, as a cm I found them generally professional, approachable and fair.

If and I say if an unregistered cm is minding like this she is breaking the law and giving all of us excellent cms a bad name..

JustFabulous Wed 09-Jan-13 07:45:35

"even if she is breaking the law....." = no excuse to stay quiet.

Maybe the other mum told you because she isn't as cool as she makes out and actually wants things investigated.

Children are not being looked after as well as they deserve and that needs investigation. All saying keep quiet are a disgrace.

It might be annoying to be checked up on but decent CM will accept that the childrens wellfare is much more important than her embarrassment or annoyance.

Maybe if everyone looked out for each other more, and cared, we wouldn't have so much shit in the world.

JustFabulous Wed 09-Jan-13 07:47:24

"Plenty of mothers cope perfectly well with 8 or more DC of their own."

I just knew someone would trot this out. CM and mothers are not comparable for obvious reasons.

realcoalfire Wed 09-Jan-13 08:19:56

"Plenty of mothers cope perfectly well with 8 or more DC of their own."

that was purely in response to the claim that these children are in immediate danger purely because 8 is too many be safely looked after.

realcoalfire Wed 09-Jan-13 09:14:33

"Plenty of mothers cope perfectly well with 8 or more DC of their own."

that was purely in response to the claim that these children are in immediate danger because 8 is too many be safely looked after by one person.

chocoluvva Wed 09-Jan-13 11:03:00

I don't know anyone who has more than six children and in both the six-children families there's a big gap between the older ones and the younger ones.

I know one mum who had five children within 8 years and I consider her to be exceptionally energetic.

Who are the "plenty of mothers"?

realcoalfire Wed 09-Jan-13 11:33:30

Chocoluvva-but presumably they have friends over sometimes?

MrsReiver Wed 09-Jan-13 11:41:03

If I was the childminder and was genuinely doing nothing wrong, I would rather I was investigated and had my name cleared than have people speculating about me behind my back.

PiccadillyCervix Wed 09-Jan-13 15:54:28

How many parents have 8 preschool aged children? confused

I'd like to pin a badge on them.

chocoluvva Wed 09-Jan-13 18:27:03

realcoalfire, I couldn't say for certain but I'd bet she didn't used to have three children over to play for the whole day without another mum being in attendance.

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