To be a traditional sahm ??

(864 Posts)
ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:16:39

I personal have never been flamed for my choice in life, however I see many people who continuously get some sort of insult for their life choices. So here I thought I would share all for the first time.
I am 34 years old I got married at 18 straight from college. I am happily married with five wonderful children who I adore and do everything for. I have NEVER worked (outside the family home) my DH has always worked. He works traditional hours leaves about 8:10 mon-fri and is home for around 5:30. I do everything in the home cleaning, cooking, bathing the younger children, ironing and so on. I dote on my children and my husband. I love it they do not need to help me in the house I look after them and that is what I am good at.

Euphemia Wed 02-Jan-13 22:17:58

Are you looking to provoke a bunfight?

DeafLeopard Wed 02-Jan-13 22:18:42

Not sure I see the point of the thread tbh

CheCazzo Wed 02-Jan-13 22:18:47

Spiffing. Good for you.

You do understand that your choices are yours alone and don't apply to anyone else right?

Gumby Wed 02-Jan-13 22:19:06

Good for you

squeakytoy Wed 02-Jan-13 22:19:43

well jolly good for you..

OpenToPersuasion Wed 02-Jan-13 22:19:52

Totally your family's choice.

My twopenneth id you are doing your DC a major disservice by doing everything for them.

AfterEightMintyy Wed 02-Jan-13 22:19:54

... and your point is?

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 02-Jan-13 22:20:27

If it makes you happy, knock yourself out. I say that as a committed feminist. I would go to the barricades for any woman's freely chosen life. I would just say that studies have shown that children who do chores do 'better' in life. Maybe see your role more as how to bring them up to be successful adults than how to look after them now. Do they have jobs in the house at all?

PearlyWhites Wed 02-Jan-13 22:20:53

No Yanbu

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 22:20:55

I'm pleased for you

Snazzynewyear Wed 02-Jan-13 22:21:01

There are posters here (as on every website) who look for reasons to insult people. I'm not one. I'm glad you're happy with your life and if that's all you wanted to say then no further discussion is needed. If you posted wanting to provoke disagreement, then that's on the same level as the people who throw gratuituous personal insults around really. But I always think the best of people grin so thanks for sharing!

Sparklingbrook Wed 02-Jan-13 22:21:10

YANBU. Whatever works for you. But why are you seeking opinions? confused

FreudianLisp Wed 02-Jan-13 22:21:33

YABU for having text-speak in your username.

[Oops, did I type that thought out loud?]

RyleDup Wed 02-Jan-13 22:21:57

Do whatever is good for you and your family. Its not unreasonable to stay at home if you can afford to do so, and its not unreasonable to go to work either.

PilotRochester Wed 02-Jan-13 22:22:14

And?

If I was feeling REALLY rude I'd post 4

ahem

4

there ya go

PilotRochester Wed 02-Jan-13 22:22:50

And?

LarkinSky Wed 02-Jan-13 22:23:37

Great! Good for you.
But dont forget to teach your sons all the domestic tasks they need to know as its highly unlikely they'll find a woman (or man) to love who will do it all for them, like their mother...

SanityClause Wed 02-Jan-13 22:24:46

Ooh, Freudian I love the way the style of your post goes with your name.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:26:02

No I was not aiming for a "bun fight" I was just reading through some threads and saw a lot of advice for Working mums so was reaching out to other SAHMs to talk about it that was all nothing else meant by it.

TheSecondComing Wed 02-Jan-13 22:26:13

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kilmuir Wed 02-Jan-13 22:26:25

I am a sahm, but rubbish at housework and no way do I do everything for my children!

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:28:08

Although I can now see why SAHM's do not post a lot shock

StuntGirl Wed 02-Jan-13 22:28:31

"I don't think anyone else gives a fuck tbh.".

^^This.

FreudianLisp Wed 02-Jan-13 22:28:55

SanityClause, grin

AmandaPayne Wed 02-Jan-13 22:29:03

Not being rude, but if you want to talk about being a SAHM, why not start a thread about some aspect of being a SAHM. The threads for working mums are normally about some specific aspect of their lives.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 22:29:08

OP lots of us are SAHMs, we just don't feel the need to post about it I suppose unless a certain subject arises.

What makes you think SAHMs don't post a lot?

StuntGirl Wed 02-Jan-13 22:29:19

Are you new here? SAHM's post ALL the time. You just wouldn't know because they don't announce it unless its relevant to the post.

Cerealqueen Wed 02-Jan-13 22:30:19

Fine for you maybe but by doing everything for your children you are hardly enabling them to fend for themselves, as some stage they will have to cut the apron strings and learn about life themselves. Just saying.

FabulousFreaks Wed 02-Jan-13 22:30:42

This subject has become an obsession on MN

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 02-Jan-13 22:30:49

I don't see why you would say that, the responses haven't been rude at all. Pretty much everyone is saying,

a) that you can do what you like
b) that they don't care
c) that it is possible you are trying to provoke people

A few including me are saying that
d) saying that your children might benefit from chores.

Boringly polite IMO.

sweetkitty Wed 02-Jan-13 22:31:42

Good for you if your both happy about it.

I'm a SAHM too, I do not do everything for my DC though, I'm their mum not their servant. I'm glad I had a career preDC though, I enjoyed living somewhere completely different and doing different things.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 22:31:43

Oh and I look after my children the same as WOHMs do, except I wouldn't do everything for them as that wouldn't turn them into particularly useful adults.

Each to their own though.

kilmuir Wed 02-Jan-13 22:32:33

Blimey, nasty people. why the attack on the OP?
Nothing she said was aimed at anyone, or slagging those off who chose a different life to hers.
bitchynet strikes again

DeafLeopard Wed 02-Jan-13 22:33:07

"I was just reading through some threads and saw a lot of advice for Working mums so was reaching out to other SAHMs to talk about it"

So what aspect do you want to talk about?

I've spent 8 years as a SAHM - my career chances are fucked now, I've been out of my profession too long so things have moved on and by the time my youngest has left f/t education I will be too old to retrain.

AmandaPayne Wed 02-Jan-13 22:33:21

What do you mean SAHM's don't post a lot? They do, all the time. I am currently a SAHM (name change a lot though). Various other people I remember mentioning it when relevant.

Do you have something you actually want to discuss?

kilmuir Wed 02-Jan-13 22:34:14

saying " i don't think anyone else gives a fuck tbh' is rude

lovelyladuree Wed 02-Jan-13 22:34:43

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Pascha Wed 02-Jan-13 22:35:09

I am a M. Whether I WOH or SAH is irrelevant.

StuntGirl Wed 02-Jan-13 22:35:32

Yes OP what aspect of being a SAHM do you want to discuss? There are lots of ladies in the same position, I'm sure they'd be happy to talk.

Fakebook Wed 02-Jan-13 22:35:55

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

saying " i don't think anyone else gives a fuck tbh' is rude

But true, probably.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 02-Jan-13 22:36:06

kilmuir I think that is on response to the idea that we all sit around waiting to slag off SAHM. That is insulting too. BTW, I've done both and didn't feel half as judged on here as a SAHM. There are people who do that, "I don't know why people have children to let other people bring them up" crap.

camgirl Wed 02-Jan-13 22:36:10

There's nothing traditional about sahm at all! Traditionally,poor families all worked, mums included, and rich families paid others to do everything you describe, from cooking to cleaning to child care. So it's lovely that you are happy with your role, but it's the life equivalent of a 1950s 'little box.' (Nothing wrong with these of course, I live in one myself..)

ZebraInHiding Wed 02-Jan-13 22:36:46

If it works for you guys, that's great smile

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:37:12

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange - No my children do not have any jobs in our home. I believe children are only children for a short time and should be able to be free and enjoy it. smile

StuntGirl Wed 02-Jan-13 22:37:17

It's not rude Kilmuir, it's a fact. Do you give a toss how I spend my hours? Thought not. It's just not relevant really is it?

Sparklingbrook Wed 02-Jan-13 22:37:28

I have never given the subject much thought. Each to their own etc. But it does seem like an obsession on MN, together with State v Private education.

We are all grown ups and should do whatever we like......

FabulousFreaks Wed 02-Jan-13 22:37:31

Aren't you all bored of repeating the same tired bullshit?

OrangeLily Wed 02-Jan-13 22:37:47

What's the point in this post?

firawla Wed 02-Jan-13 22:38:02

OP of course there is nothing wrong with it, its your choice and does not concern anyone else. I am the same as you married at 18 and as soon as I finished studying have had one child after the other (only got 3 though), dh works lot of hours so i end up doing most of it. Sure a lot of people are in the same position.
However if others prefer or need to work then each to their own.
There are people who will judge you for never working and just being a sahm but who cares really - if you are happy with it then let them think what they want

AmandaPayne Wed 02-Jan-13 22:38:51

How old are your children? I think all children should have responsibilities in the family - even if it is only my 3 year old helping put her cutlery on the table or tidying up her toys with me.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 22:39:08

Why can't kids be 'free' and enjoy helping their parents?

Traditionally this is how young people learn those skills.

I take it they're learning to read and write and yet they're still free to enjoy their childhoods?

OpenToPersuasion Wed 02-Jan-13 22:39:32

kilmuir, do you not think it was a very strange first post?

I'be seen posts similar to this before, and I'd heard, anecdoetally, that one of the plethora of reasons that some of those had posted was to cause a bunfight.

Obvis, it's not the case this time, but some posters may put 2 and 2 together and get hiusemaid's knee.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Wed 02-Jan-13 22:39:53

That's great ProudMum4Eva except that one of their roles as children is to learn how to live in the world. That includes laundry, cleaning, cooking. How do they learn this if not from you? IMO it is the same as saying, "they are only children, why should they have to learn maths?". Because it is useful and a life skill. I will try to Google the studies that show that chores are good for kids... Unless the genius of MN knows where they live...

Busyoldfool Wed 02-Jan-13 22:40:26

And....? Are you asking to be flamed becasue you haven't been yet? Don't get what you are trying to do with this/

akaemmafrost Wed 02-Jan-13 22:40:36
dearcathyandclare Wed 02-Jan-13 22:42:45

Carry on enjoying being a SAHM but, and it is big but, do not do everything for your children as they need life skills like they need to be potty trained and also actively plan your return to work strategy. This may mean a return to education or volunteering.
Your time at home will go so fast you really should start thinking about your future now.

Pascha Wed 02-Jan-13 22:43:08

You ask if you are being unreasonable to be a SAHM? YANBU of course but in asking the question you sound insecure in your life choice. Can we help in any way?

::tilts head::

OliviaPeaceOnMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 02-Jan-13 22:43:10
garlicbaubles Wed 02-Jan-13 22:44:02

It would drive me fucking insane but, if that's the kind of challenge you enjoy, go for it. I'm not sure it's that clever to raise children who don't know how to look after themselves so, as you've made parenting your full-time job, perhaps you'll consider preparing them for life by dishing a few household responsibilities.

I hope your finances are independently secure smile

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:44:06

Do you have your hair in a bun - erm sometimes wear a pinny not often go around the house holding a rolling pin nope not round the house grin.
I used the words traditional as that is how I see it but sorry if you found it incorrect.

ErikNorseman Wed 02-Jan-13 22:44:18

Kilmuir? Are you reading the thread? are you the op?
Nobody has attacked the OP. Nobody really cares, except the OP. dull thread.

BartletForTeamGB Wed 02-Jan-13 22:44:30

I am generally a SAHM at the moment and I even get my 2yo to 'help' (I use the word in its very loosest sense as I am sure it takes me longer to do things as a result!) me with chores. He thinks it is great fun at the moment, but he'll still have to do them when he realises they are not!

I also think it is really important for DH to have time to bond with his children. Yes, I am home during the day and consider keeping the house generally in order mainly my job (although I always vomit impressively when I am pregnant so most of it has fallen to DH of late), but bathtime is always DH's job when he gets home. I love that DH and DS have their own special time without me, both for my sanity at the end of a busy day and for their relationship.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Wed 02-Jan-13 22:44:51

my children do not have any jobs in our home. I believe children are only children for a short time and should be able to be free and enjoy it.

Doing chores and having responsibility around the home doesn't spoil childhood though, in fact learning to be independent enhances enjoyment IMO.

BartletForTeamGB Wed 02-Jan-13 22:45:31

Gosh, I did have my hair in a bun today.

AND DS and I wore aprons when we were cooking our dinner. He tells me off if we don't wear them!

But there were no rolling pins involved!

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:46:34

Why will my children not be able to look after themselves?

Dinglebert Wed 02-Jan-13 22:47:52

lovelyladuree you sound delightful.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 22:48:01

Why will my children not be able to look after themselves?

Because you're not passing on the skills for them to do so.

Kids need (and mostly enjoy) responsibility...age appropriate of course.

Euphemia Wed 02-Jan-13 22:48:31

Who's going to teach them, if you do everything for them?

Fakebook Wed 02-Jan-13 22:48:38

Pah. And you call yourself a "traditional" sahm. You are a joke. A JOKE. wink.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Wed 02-Jan-13 22:49:26

Why do you think they will be able to look after themselves, if you don't teach them how to do it? I was pretty much left to bring myself up, but still made horrendous mistakes with money, cooking, boil washing all my pants etc when I left home. Looking after yourself is a taught skill, you don't learn it by osmosis.

archilles Wed 02-Jan-13 22:49:31

Some of us don't actually get to choose. Lucky you for getting a choice.

Just don't be too smug.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:49:57

BartletForTeamGB
Thank you for your honest input. My DC get lots of time with DH weekends and in the evening. It is just more games , story telling stuff rather than routine stuff like bath time and so on. smile

TheSecondComing Wed 02-Jan-13 22:51:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Megan74 Wed 02-Jan-13 22:52:12

YANBU. It's horses for courses.

I have been a sahm and wohm. Each has their pros and cons. If it works for you and your family that's all that matters. Happy New Year.

Why will your children not be able to look after themselves? well if you do it all for them they won't be easily able to take care of personal hygiene, work household appliances, take care of clothing, feed themselves to a budget, manage money, all skills that one would not expect in a preschooler but to encourage in the primary years and develop in a teen, great prep for adult life.

ErikNorseman Wed 02-Jan-13 22:53:01

Looking after yourself, housework, cooking etc are life skills. We teach our children life skills in order that they can become effective adults. If you don't teach them how to take care of themselves then how do you expect them to learn? Serious question, not rhetorical, by the way!

showtunesgirl Wed 02-Jan-13 22:53:31

OP, do your other kids feel left out as your favourite appears to be your DD Eva?

Permanentlyexhausted Wed 02-Jan-13 22:53:40

In response to the OP, I also see many people being insulted for their life choices, particularly on MN. Sometimes it is because they have chosen to be a SAHM, just as often it is because they have chosen to be a WOHM, even more often it is because they have chosen to add to their family whilst in receipt of benefits. It is lovely that you are so happy with your choices. I assume you are equally happy about everyone else's.

Feel the Lurve!

Are you a Proud Mum For Ever, or do you have a DD called Eva?
Not really interested in all the rest of it, but I would like to know that.

DeafLeopard Wed 02-Jan-13 22:54:00

Despite me having been a SAHM for a long time, both my DCs can prepare a simple meal, put on a load of washing, load/unload dishwasher operate the hoover; DS is much older so can do stuff like ironing, simple DIY, car maintenance. These are important skills for their adult life, and being a lackey doing everything for them is doing them no favours - nor for whoever they chose to live with / marry.

ummmmm what stuff do you get to do whilst daddy is busy with the children in the evenings/on weekends? <peers from behind fingers>

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 22:56:20

I clean up after them yes , I do the washing and ironing yes , I do the cooking yes.
They can all wash themselves , do their teeth , dress themselves and what ever else they need to do. I do not understand the comment that they will not be able to look after themselves. sad
My eldest two (both teenagers) can cook/clean/iron they just do not have to.

OpenToPersuasion Wed 02-Jan-13 22:58:08

They need to know that these jobs need doing, learn initiative abd that it's not some fairy that does it.

And they all needto kniw that women aren't martyrs to the home.

Seriously.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Wed 02-Jan-13 22:58:57

I agree deaf. It's their home too. They should contribute towards it (in an age appropriate way of course). Otherwise want message does that send? That there will always be someone else to pick up the dirty pants? That's disrespecting the role of a SAHM - the M stands for mother, not maid.

OpenToPersuasion Wed 02-Jan-13 22:59:05

BALD, have you enough spreadage in those fibgers for my eyes, too?

Euphemia Wed 02-Jan-13 23:00:18

And your DDs need to know that they have choices about living their lives differently to you, and that not every family sees it as the mother's role to stay at home and do everything for everyone.

I look after one of my DC's completely- he's 11months and he's really fucking sloppy with taking his cereal bowl to the kitchen wink the oldest DC can do simple tasks and I make him do them, even though I am a SAHM I am not a skivvy.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:02:05

Difference of opinion I see myself as a mother not a maid. Is there really no one else on here tonight who shares my thoughts blush

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:04:25

What thoughts do you have OP?

YANBU to be a SAHM if it makes you happy

I'm a SAHM just like 1000's of others and it makes me happy.

MatureUniStudent Wed 02-Jan-13 23:04:35

My teens would love to stay at yours, they have to wash up the dishes and sling washing in the tumble dryer. They would jump at the chance of watching another do it.

Euphemia Wed 02-Jan-13 23:04:47

No, they're blacking the grate and polishing the shoes. wink grin

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Wed 02-Jan-13 23:05:38

You may see yourself as a mother but you are actually acting like a maid too.

And what are your thoughts? That SAHM is good? It's completely up to you and your family - that's what feminism is. You have a choice. Not sure why you need us to validate that for you though?

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:06:08

WorraLiberty

smile

MatureUniStudent Wed 02-Jan-13 23:06:42

darned finger - wanted to finish saying that I think there is a SAHM that MN hasn't covered and that you brought up in your OP. If there is the traditional SAHM, then there should be the Volunteer SAHM (volunteers outside the home) and the Student SAHM. Any other breeds of SAHM's? As I don't think SAHM accurately reflects our varied rolls.

Gay40 Wed 02-Jan-13 23:06:56

I wouldn't want my daughter growing up thinking this is OK. I want her to get more out of life than being a servant.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:07:08

I know it is up to me.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:07:46

I do not see myself as a servant at all.

Gay40 Wed 02-Jan-13 23:08:51

That's your choice, but I see you as a skivvy with no aspirations. It's not what I want for my DD.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:09:03

Fuck that makes me a Volunteer out of home mum

Or VOHM

That sounds far too much like Vom

I'll have to stop volunteering now sad grin

Fakebook Wed 02-Jan-13 23:09:39

Proudmum, I feel sorry for you, because in your OP you say " I love it they do not need to help me in the house I look after them and that is what I am good at."

What about when you're ill? Or if anything happens to you and it leaves you unable to do everything? My mother was like this. Always did everything like a control freak and never let anyone do anything without nitpicking and she died at the age of 52. She wore herself out and didn't bother going to the doctor for aches that turned out to be cancer. And what did she spend her life on? Cleaning, cooking and sewing. What a waste of a life. Absolute waste.

You're still an individual, not just a mother. Seriously, get a life.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Wed 02-Jan-13 23:09:49

Some interesting responses to your post so far OP.

Not sure if I understand your use of the word 'traditional'. I've known traditional mums, mums who like cooking, baking etc but they do it with their children and pass on their skills. That's how many women prepared for their own families, from the cooking, sewing etc skills passed down from mother to daughter. By doing it for them all the time it doesn't really do them any favours, as others have already said.

I think if your lifestyle works for you then great. Personally it makes me feel quite suffocated thinking about it.

Also, do you ever consider what you might do regarding work should your circumstances suddenly change. Do you feel you would be able to transfer your skills to the workplace. If yes then that's great too.

Do you have interests outside the home?

KobayashiMaru Wed 02-Jan-13 23:11:19

Did you have an AIBU at all or are you just waffling?

MatureUniStudent Wed 02-Jan-13 23:11:21

Oh VOHM sounds sexy like va va voom.

I'd be a Stud SAHM wink

What I am getting at is what about you? how do you spend your down-time? Do you have time to study the stars, can you tell a mistle thrush from a song thrush by sound alone, do you devour books greedily and in one sitting?

What about YOU? You matter, you really do.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:14:39

HoHoHoNoYouDont

To answer as honest as I can to you work wise I would not have a clue as never had to do it. Outside the home I only really go to the gym and do the shopping. However I have great friends who I meet up with during the week.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Wed 02-Jan-13 23:14:48

I don't think calling the op a skivvy is going to be productive even though I see what you're saying

OP I think home is a beautiful thing. A place where we all pull together according to our talents and abilities. A place where everyone contributes and values each others' input both in and out of the home. That means my DS puts into the metaphorical pot, because we're teaching him that good things happen when families pull together. We role-model not just how our family works, but how his future family works too. And I'm presuming in his future family, his P will expect him to know how to cook a meal, deal with the nitty-gritty of childcare, wash clothes and floors, and just contribute.

So anyway. A bit woo but fake Baileys has been taken.

Gay40 Wed 02-Jan-13 23:17:21

You are going to have a massive shock if you ever find yourself not married, for whatever reason.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:17:52

What would you do if (God forbid) you split up with your Husband OP or if for any reason you had to take over the 'bread winning'?

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:19:15

Maybe yet I intend my marriage to last forever. I do not like living the whole what if way. That can be said about anything.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Wed 02-Jan-13 23:19:34

This may sound harsh but what if one day that husband you dote on tells you he's found himself a new bright thing at the office and leaves you. What would you do? How would you support yourself financially?

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:20:19

If I had to. I would get on with it can not do anything else really. smile

Snazzynewyear Wed 02-Jan-13 23:21:07

<sigh> I see this has gone the way I expected. Don't bite.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:21:56

I have more faith in my DH than that. Although anything can happen I guess. Like I said I would have to do something.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:22:18

Well anyway it's nice that you're happy OP

Log may it continue

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:22:45

FFS 'Long!!' blush

HoHoHoNoYouDont Wed 02-Jan-13 23:22:58

That's quite a relaxed attitude you have their. I could use a bit of that myself. Unfortunately the real world scares me too much to take a back seat.

Viviennemary Wed 02-Jan-13 23:23:28

Well if you're happy what's the problem.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:24:04

People lose jobs all the time it is just the same things really. An income can go in a flash but it is not worth fretting every hour of the day about.

Sianilaa Wed 02-Jan-13 23:24:06

If you're genuinely happy and it works for you, then great and it's nobody else's business really. I'm a SAHM but running a small business from home a couple of days a week. I would hate to run around and do everything for everyone 24/7. I love that my husband is in charge of all the dirty laundry and my kids argue over who gets to use the Hoover smile

I also quite envy WOHMs ;)

3smellysocks Wed 02-Jan-13 23:24:54

It's great you are a SAHM.

I just wanted to add that my own mother did everything for her four boys and they are all thoroughly useless as grown men in their 30's. They don't know how to cook at all and don't clean. All are married with kids and all of their wives utterly despair with their poor level of domesticity! My mum did them all a huge disservice by waiting on them hand and foot.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:26:09

Sianilaa That's great I am interested in how other families run. It is nice to hear about. smile

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:26:10

Why are we feeding this one?

Have we promised MNHQ that we'll walk it every single day, honestly we will and brush it's shiney coat and please can we keep it, pleeeeeease?

Or something.

HiggsBoson Wed 02-Jan-13 23:26:33

OP you are very, VERY lucky to have the choice - I hope you know that.

Personally I can't imagine never having worked and never intending to work. What will you do when all your children have left home? What will you do that is YOU?

HoHoHoNoYouDont Wed 02-Jan-13 23:26:58

grin catgirl

MatureUniStudent Wed 02-Jan-13 23:27:20

Well we have worked out that there is more than one variety of SAHM. So I guess we have got a learning objective out of this. And a warm happy fuzzy glow...

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:27:49

catgirl1976geesealaying

Sorry ? confused

whiteandyelloworchid Wed 02-Jan-13 23:30:01

i've come to the conclusion, whatever you do in life, some fucker wants a pop at you
so you might aswell just do exactley what you want and what makes you happy

i love being a sahm

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:33:01

HiggsBoson
Thank you I know I am lucky. I understand some mums do not want to SAH and some do yet are not able to.

When all my children have grown I intend to relax still looking after our home and caring for my DH. Then one day DH and me shall move to a sunny climate and enjoy our golden years grin.
Although plans may never work out. sad

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:33:38

DH and I should I say sorry smile

JugglingMeYorkiesAndNutRoast Wed 02-Jan-13 23:33:53

If you've found ways to juggle things to everyone's satisfaction and happiness, including your own, then good for you !

Do agree slightly though that it might be best as your children get older to think more in terms of raising them to be good and capable adults (like you !) than in terms of looking after everyone. Just a thought smile

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:33:57

DH and I.

3smellysocks Wed 02-Jan-13 23:34:21

My own kids are totally different, they enjoy helping cook, they clean their rooms with music blaring out, they carry shopping in knowing that it really makes a difference to me when I'm exhausted, they make breakfast for eachother while playing horses, they get thier own clothes out the night before so they have more time to play in the morning, they help load the dishwasheer after I spent ages cooking. We are a team

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:35:11

O and of course get to pamper my my future grandchildren smile

OpenToPersuasion Wed 02-Jan-13 23:35:39

Make youself too indisoensible and you'll never be able to move from the Apron String Zone.

Please have a ponder.

smile

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:36:15

I'm only pedanty when I'm drunk. Good for you op. Marvellous. May your retirement be sunny with n'err a bridge to cloud your horizons.

Old northern saying that.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:36:35

3smellysocks
That is great are you a sahm ??

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:38:15

catgirl1976geesealaying

Thank you I know you were probably trying to be funny but thanks smile

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:40:59

Yes I am already very indispensable and very proud to be. smile Best feeling in the world feeling needed.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:40:59

No. Genuinely. Happy for anyone who is making life work for them. It's all any of us are aiming for.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:42:07

But I would disagree with your last point.

I'd much rather be wanted than needed.

Still. Whatever works for you op. Whatever works.

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:42:27

The graveyards are bursting with indispensable people

As my old Grandad would say.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:43:45

Ah you see I know I am always wanted. Yet I will be very sad the day I am no longer needed. sad

DevaDiva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:43:49

Got about half way through this thread and all I can say without being rude is grrrrrrr that's how it makes me feel

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:44:55

lol that's very strange unfortunately the graveyards are full of all kinds of people. smile

OpenToPersuasion Wed 02-Jan-13 23:45:09

Honestly, ProudMum, whatever makes you happy, but I do believe that "needed" is not too neat the top of many people's Best Feeling Ever List.

Enjoy what you do, and remember that you've only got to justify your lifestyle to yourslef.

smile

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:45:53

Who is Eva BTW? Is she your dd?

A lovely name

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:45:57

DevaDiva aw nooo why?? I hope I have not said anything to upset you sad

MatureUniStudent Wed 02-Jan-13 23:46:36

so need a like button

dearcathyandclare Wed 02-Jan-13 23:46:39

Feed your own brain and life even if you are SAHM. Learn the language of your future sunny clime and teach your children by example that you are more than the sum of your
parts.

HiggsBoson Wed 02-Jan-13 23:47:33

I'm not sure what your point is though OP. Is it to make people who have to work feel bad? There seems to be an element of smuggery there, for sure.

Whilst I could never be a kept woman I do envy those who don't have to worry about bringing money into the household envy

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:49:11

It's not strange at all OP

It's a very poignant way of pointing out that no-one in this life is indispensable.

When you die, life goes on...that's why passing on life skills and teaching people to be independent is so important.

I remember being a kid and my Aunts going into hospital. Their Husbands were so totally useless that various women in the family had to rally round to feed them and their children.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:50:18

catgirl

Eva was my first DD yes however she was very poorly at birth and sadly we lost her at 3 weeks old.
I always use her name on email names and stuff just habit I guess.

smile

HoHoHoNoYouDont Wed 02-Jan-13 23:51:24

Even if I had money I couldn't stay home all day, I'd have to volunteer or something. Shopping and lunching would become monotonous eventually. It would be like the Real Housewives of NY/Orange County/Beverley Hills. Ooh I love bitching at those programes grin

MatureUniStudent Wed 02-Jan-13 23:51:46

Darn - shows how little I know - I thought it was a play on words - as in "ever".

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:51:55

Oh I'm sorry to hear that OP

I assumed 'Eva' for text speak for 'Ever', otherwise I thought it would be ProudMum*of*Eva if that makes sense?

StuntGirl Wed 02-Jan-13 23:52:17

Catgirl grin

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:52:50

HiggsBoson

Not at all. I am sorry if that is how you saw it. I totally respect working mums. I was just talking about myself and looking for other family ways. no disrespect meant to anyone.

ProudMum4Eva Wed 02-Jan-13 23:55:21

I am actually feeling bad now. I did not want to offend anyone. sad

Do you have to ask to get threads deleted or do they go of in time? I do not want any other working mums to be offended.

HoHoHoNoYouDont Wed 02-Jan-13 23:56:57

Don't worry about it, it takes a lot more than that to upset this nest of vipers grin

WorraLiberty Wed 02-Jan-13 23:57:03

Don't worry about it OP

Anyone happy with their choice won't be offended

Anyone unhappy with their circumstance will understand that no everyone's life is the same.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 23:58:31

Yes. I assumed you meant "ever" too and was trying to have a little fun with your text speak. I apologise.

judefawley Thu 03-Jan-13 00:00:48

I don't understand the point of threads like this, especially when posted in AIBU.

Seems like the intention is to be inflammatory.

Great if you're happy to be a SAHM and have never had a career. But, really, you haven't made any useful observations on your lifestyle choice that might provoke a considered debate, so why bother sharing?

peaceandlovebunny Thu 03-Jan-13 00:02:57

amazing, op. you win. my daughter's grown up, my husband's flown the nest (well, i kicked him out as soon as the opportunity arose) and i have to go to work. your lifestyle definitely has the edge...do you have a nice big house and a 4x4?

NotMostPeople Thu 03-Jan-13 00:05:24

I am a Sahm mt dc's tidy up after themselves, help with mealtimes and do one household job per week ie. hoovering. My DH would kill to work the hours yours does, if he's home at 7.30 pm we consider this early and there are many weeks when he's away all week. That said when he is home he does all the cooking (by choice) and pitches in with the housework. If we assume that I'm working in the home while he is working away from the home it is only fair that we both take on the jobs that need to be done once he is home. Otherwise I'd be working more hours than him. We have never discussed this its just what a fair minded person who assumes we are equal does.

I would feel downtrodden and like a second class citizen if I lived like you describe.

Avuncular Thu 03-Jan-13 00:05:37

Excellent model - there are financial choices to be made though.

And I agree with others that the DCs need to learn about dust, washing, cooking, DIY etc as essential life skills. Though I think my parents made sure that school and studies had a high priority during the critical years.

As my DW got into her 40s though I began to encourage her into suitable training partly to help with the 'tapering' off as fledglings flee the nest, and to enable her to explore new potential (plus to help the exchequer with holidays etc).

So maybe you need to think about that for later on ...

Arisbottle Thu 03-Jan-13 00:18:07

I am happy that you have been able to make that choice and a little envious if I am being honest

Biting my tounge because I just can't be nice ....

LuluMai Thu 03-Jan-13 03:58:27

In some ways you sound like you have it quite easy... time to potter about, go shopping, go to the gym, meet friends, no work pressure, no commute? I'm a single parent (full time, no weekends off) who works full time so I have all the housework to do myself like you, but to fit around full time work and baring the financial responsibility and bread winning status too. But then I think about it and I really couldn't lead your life. Fair play though, whatever makes you happy.

NeedlesCuties Thu 03-Jan-13 06:22:53

OP, you seem a bit naive to the ways of MN AIBU section.

However, you are far from being the only SAHM here.

I gave up work when my PFB was born, now have 2 children and only intend to return to work part-time when the youngest starts school (if at all).

Taking pride in your role as a woman in the house is a great thing, as is having a responsible DH who takes on the ££ earnings.

Theres dozens of websites and blogs by women who enjoy being SAHMs, some are interesting.

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 03-Jan-13 07:37:22

How can you all afford to live with your dh doing a traditional job that finishes at half 5 and no weekends?

I couldn't stay at home and depend on a man. I don't think never working your whole life is a good thing, I think it's really sad you'll never feel independence. You won't btw ever feel independent living off someone else's money picking up their dirty pants for a roof over your head.

But anyway I hope your life plan pans out smile

grobagsforever Thu 03-Jan-13 08:11:13

Good luck op. Personally I think you're nuts to have no financial independence at all. Or qualifications with which to acquire some should the shit hit the fan.

NeedlesCuties Thu 03-Jan-13 08:20:24

InNeed sadly my DH works longer hours, including some of the weekend. That's not just cuz he needs to support myself and the DCs, it's just the nature of his work.

I also don't think never working ever ever is a good thing, but each to their own!

Doingakatereddy Thu 03-Jan-13 08:23:35

Can't we all just accept that we're different & get on with it?

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 03-Jan-13 08:31:31

I meant with a decent job bringing in a decent wage I don't see how it could be where you don't ever work late and no weekends.

HecatePropolos Thu 03-Jan-13 08:32:21

Wouldn't that be lovely, Doing? grin
OP - live the life that makes you and your family happy.

That's your right. And I don't think anyone has the right to mock you for making that choice. Just as you would not have the right to mock anyone for making a different choice.

however. You (jointly with your husband) also have a responsibility to your children and that responsibility is this -

To release into the world, fully functioning, capable, independent adults.

Now. Can you honestly say that your children, when grown, would be able to walk out of your home, rent/buy a place of their own and throw themselves without struggle into the washing, ironing, cleaning, cooking, bill paying, budgeting 'fun' that is adulthood?

Is their upbringing equipping them with those independent living skills?

OP I'm happy you're doing what works for you, but do you feel you dedicate your life to your family? Most SAHMs (and WOHMs) get a chance to do something that is not, for want of a better word, drudgery (and I'm including day to day WOH in that too).

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 08:52:51

You have teenagers who don't do anything???? I don't think you are doing them any favours by not giving them some chores. No wonder so many kids of today are so bloody lazy and irresponsible (I know, a generalisation - you know what I mean). I had chores from an early age and it was one of the best things my parents did for me. When my kids are older they will to and even now they have to tidy their toys away etc.

NumericalMum Thu 03-Jan-13 08:54:43

Being devil's advocate OP but have you got a contingency plan for if something like illness or death strikes your partner. I know it isn't a nice thought but with a lot of kids and only one breadwinner it could be tricky if you don't.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 08:57:28

There is nothing wrong with being a sahm - I'm a freelance designer so am around for my kids in the day so I am sort of a sahm too and love it. You are not insulting anyone or working mums - if this is your first aibu you'll soon get I to it! But you should give your kids some chores/responsibility as it is good for them to help you and it is respectful to you to do so and will teach them more - you don't want any boys you have to think they should leave it all to their wives do you?!

Badvoc Thu 03-Jan-13 09:05:27

Hmmm...
I have been sahm for the last decade through choice.
However, I really don't see how you can be so happy when you don't have any experience of the alternative?
I know for example, that I never want to work in an office again, or in retail.
I do know that I want to go back to learning so have restarted my degree course with the OU.
I also do voluntary work.
My kids won't always need me as much as they do now...they will grow you and have their own lives.
And I am going to make sure I have one too.

Beaverfeaver Thu 03-Jan-13 09:12:15

I don't understand the negativity towards SAHM's on here.

My mum has never worked. There were 4 of us. We are all in our 20's now.
Even though she was always at home we all still learned how to look after ourselves from a young age. I moved out at 20 and there were o problems.
We all had skills and talents that had been nurtured well and were also very social people.

I also saw friends growing up without mothers being there all the time and they weren't the happiest of people.

The family has gained 4 nieces/nephews in the past year, 2 out if 4 of the mothers will be SAHM'S.

I think good for them. I still don't know how it will work out for us as I think I would need the work element to have a bit of independence, not that it's ever been a problem so far

ivykaty44 Thu 03-Jan-13 09:14:00

Op can I ask - have you ever had a pay check? I can remember getting my first job and being given a little brown envelope at the end of the first week and being so pleased as punch with it.

I think I am just in awe that you have possibly never had a pay check shock

peaceandlovebunny Thu 03-Jan-13 09:14:36

i think the negativity is down to envy - a lot of people go to work because they have to, not because they find it soooo wonderrrfullly fulfilling.

also mumsnetters are pack animals - 'different' scares them and makes them gang up and attack.

Badvoc Thu 03-Jan-13 09:39:36

Well, you have to remember that MN isn't real life.
It's an online forum with predominantly south east/London membership.
I don't look to others to validate my life choices.
And certainly not MN but I do find the huge pool of experience And knowledge in MN invaluable.
Just dont ever post in Aibu! smile

janey68 Thu 03-Jan-13 09:48:38

What an utterly pointless first post.
You enjoy never having had a job, staying at home and doing all the housework and child related chores. Well- good for you! It wouldn't suit a lot of us, and personally I wouldn't want to raise my children with the expectation that mum does every little chore for them and that dads role is just to earn. Many couples want more balance between their roles. And the idea of being 34 and never having worked would worry me as personally I think that's very limiting

But if it floats your boat (and your husband and kids who are just as important) then good for you.
But I still fail to see why you started the thread ... Maybe boredom? Wanting to provoke a bunfight?

Arisbottle Thu 03-Jan-13 10:07:25

I find by job wonderfully fulfilling , I would still rather be at home looking after my family .

I am happy to admit to envying the OP

Avuncular Thu 03-Jan-13 10:25:35

predominantly south east/London membership

Show of hands, anyone?

Euphemia Thu 03-Jan-13 10:26:36

Envy? No way!

Arisbottle Thu 03-Jan-13 10:31:17

Well we are all different , I don't see any need to he unpleasant or disparaging to the OP because she has made different choices.

charlottehere Thu 03-Jan-13 10:36:14

All well and good if you are all happy however by doing everything for your dcs you are not teaching them anything tbh.

Arisbottle Thu 03-Jan-13 10:39:22

I agree , although to be honest when I am not working the children tend to do more because we all have more time and I am less stressed . In term time it is often quicker to just do it myself .

PessaryPam Thu 03-Jan-13 10:47:42

Giving up your career to stay home and full time parent is a high risk strategy. I was advised against it by my Mum as she had seen too many of her friends left high and dry after their husbands left. My DH and I both work and we are happy that if either of us had an accident or illness the other could support the family. But that's just our decision. I have always been independent and hate not earning my own money although all we have goes into a joint account.

allnewtaketwo Thu 03-Jan-13 10:49:31

"Then one day DH and me shall move to a sunny climate and enjoy our golden years"

But won't you be on tap to help out your children with their own children? Won't they expect mum to help them out as always? wink They're going to feel terribly let down to be expected to do it all themselves (unless you have all boys and off course they will expect their wives to take over where you left off).

PessaryPam Thu 03-Jan-13 10:49:38

When I say my own money I mean contributing money. I am happy with the joint account and we both freely use it but discuss big items as and when.

JugglingMeYorkiesAndNutRoast Thu 03-Jan-13 10:51:49

I'm so sorry to hear that you lost your Eva ProudMum - I think your NN is lovely - always remembering her.

I can't really understand why some people have given you a bit of a hard time on here. I think those of us who are happier with our own choices can accept more easily when someone else has made a different choice. Whatever works for you all is the way I see it !

I guess I can understand people wondering what the point of your initial post was - (though I think you've said you were just hoping to hear from other SAHM's on MN for one thing), and others who just wanted to advice you that you might need to work one day, or that it would be good for your older children to learn to contribute to family life more.

I hope you don't regret starting the thread but have found it interesting and/or helpful. I think you have to be brave to post in AIBU ! It might have gone differently if posted elsewhere - such as in Chat ? smile

Viviennemary Thu 03-Jan-13 10:58:00

It's up to the individual. And it depends on what their life is like. I wouldn't have minded being an SAHM if I had plenty of money to swan around lunching and buying clothes. And afforded help in the house. Also getting up at the crack of dawn to travel a long way to work and then treck home again and hardly see the DC's wouldn't be great either. So a lot of people compromise. What works for some doesn't work for others.

PrettyHairClips Thu 03-Jan-13 11:10:37

OP you sound like my mum (who I no longer talk to). She did nothing to equip me for the adult world, and consequently I've spent most of my adult life struggling and feeling confused and intimidated by responsibilities. You are doing your children a great disservice by doing everything for them, and I say this as one of those kids.

concreteskies Thu 03-Jan-13 11:15:58

I don't think it's necessarily true that children will grow up to be dependent and lack life skills if they aren't given chores. My siblings and I were never given chores and that was quite a common experience amongst my schoolfriends, but we've all grown up to be fully functioning adults capable of running our homes! They were part of the skills you pick up during your student years.

I was a sahm for many years and I have never had a conventional job either, except p/t work as a student, and now I do some work for DH's company. It's a valid choice as far as I'm concerned. My DSis hated being a sahm, although they could afford it - she liked being in the office and returned to work after three months, which of course is fine too.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:16:53

I was a stay-at-home-mum. I gave up work and did all the traditional wife things. It worked for us. I was happy, he was happy, kids were happy, dogs were happy, everybody happy. (although the kids did have chores to do). Then the younger skinnier prettier flashier model came along and after 20 years I was out on my ownio. It isn't good. It isn't easy. I would never ever ever recommend my daughters to be a stay-at-home-mum. I have nothing. No life. No friends. A minimum wage job which is awful and depressing because I never had the 20years that he had to build a career. It is soul destroying.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 11:21:06

recharge thas awful for you and i sympathise but its not like that for everyone,i would never tell my daughter not to sahm,i would tell them to do what makes them happy.

Avuncular Thu 03-Jan-13 11:21:49

Something seems to be missing from all this -

marriage as a mutual lifelong covenant (i.e. stronger than a contract). This can give a different perspective and a lot more security than many seem to enjoy in UK today.

[Dons hard hat and runs for cover in nuclear bunker ....]

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:24:22

Amber - if it makes them happy then at the very least I would express my reservations very strongly and I'd tell them to put in place protection for themselves, a separate pot of money that is theirs alone. A "wage" and a "pension" for being a SAHM, if that makes sense.

As far as a lifelong covenant, Avuncular, what do you mean? In my case we were together a long time and I never imagined we would split.

Arisbottle Thu 03-Jan-13 11:24:55

I don't think that having a SAHM affects whether you can run your own home in the future . My mother mostly worked , I am naturally bone idle. I am good at running a home but naturally lazy. My siblings are all, with one exception , utterly useles at running their own home . My DH mother was always at home , he runs a home with military precision and makes up for my sloth like ways .

Many dual income families have cleaners etc, which could result in their children doing very little .

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 11:27:37

"I wouldn't have minded being an SAHM if I had plenty of money to swan around lunching and buying clothes. And afforded help in the house. Also getting up at the crack of dawn to travel a long way to work and then treck home again and hardly see the DC's wouldn't be great either."

Absolutely!

Absoluteeightiesgirl Thu 03-Jan-13 11:29:32

What Secondcoming said.

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 11:29:40

"Many dual income families have cleaners etc, which could result in their children doing very little."

I know an awful lot of DCs whose parents have masses of help in the house. I just hope that those DCs will grow up to earn as much as their parents do and can afford the same lifestyle, of paid work and expensive play and no chores to get in the way.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:36:05

And proudmum - you are 34. When I was 34 I would have written exactly what you did. I wouldn't write it now. Life has a habit of not working out exactly how you plan it.

kim147 Thu 03-Jan-13 11:37:57

"Life has a habit of not working out exactly how you plan it. "

YY to that. You never know what's round the corner and starting from scratch is difficult.

Permanentlyexhausted Thu 03-Jan-13 11:39:04

Beaverfeaver Has there been very much negativity towards SAHMs on this thread? I've seen some people pointing out some of the practical issues that may or may not affect SAHMs but the only real negativity has been to do with the concept of 'doing everything' for your DCs rather than being a SAHM per se.

Combatting negativity towards SAHMs by being negative about WOHM's choices (^I also saw friends growing up without mothers being there all the time and they weren't the happiest of people.^) doesn't really help though, does it? Two wrongs don't make a right.

In fact I actually find that comment offensive and insensitive. But then I have seen first-hand the effect that the death of a parent can have on a small child.

bickie Thu 03-Jan-13 11:42:02

OP Great you have faith in your DH. I am sure he deserves it. I think what some of the posters are getting at, is the problem with the 'traditional' lens of looking at being a mother and a wife can collide with the 'modern' world. i.e - to expect just the DH to be the one that has to worry about putting food on the table, keep his job, ensure your joint future is ok - can be dangerous and naive. Many of us love cooking, ensuring we are providing our children with great memories of their childhood etc.(behaving in what I think you are saying is a traditional way) but we also want to help provide the income that makes their lives possible, not just clean up after them.

recharge your experience is also part of being a traditional SAHM, sadly. Just look into history. Men has always wanted to trade for a younger model.

I don't buy the 'whatever makes you happy' life motto. That's what my MIL is like and she really really irritates me with her justification on her stupidity with money. (She's a lovely woman otherwise). She would remortgage the house for a foreign holiday, took on hire purchases, buy double glazing with a high interest loan, because it 'makes her happy'. They are now retired and they don't even own half of their house. DH and I are worried she'll lose the house if FIL dies because they can't afford the mortgage with one state pension.

But if money is no objection, then yes, I think many would like to SAH. I think my DH wants to too. He talks about how he'd quit work if he won the lottery.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:42:55

Kim147 - yes, I had no worthwhile qualifications (I'm working on that now but it's hard) I had no job experience all I had done was volunteering at playgroup. My friends were all intertwined with my husband my best friend was his sister. It's hard. I wish I had worked during my marriage, at least part time to be honest. And even now it's expected that I will do all the doctor appointments, all the days off if they are sick, all the run of the mill day to day stuff and sometimes it's hard for me to get the time off and he just doesn't expect ever to have to take time off because he never ever did and he's not used to it.

It made, with hindsight, for a very unequal marriage, it certainly didn't make for a partnership.

kim147 Thu 03-Jan-13 11:45:52

" And even now it's expected that I will do all the doctor appointments, all the days off if they are sick, all the run of the mill day to day stuff and sometimes it's hard for me to get the time off and he just doesn't expect ever to have to take time off because he never ever did and he's not used to it."

Which is a whole debate and a separate thread that lies at the heart of so many issues about being a parent, a mum and a partner in an equal relationship.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:47:11

Oh I type so slowly blush. OneLittleToddlingTerror yes I agree. All too typical of the traditional SAHM set up.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:48:33

And so slow again!

Kim147 - I agree totally. That's what I'm trying to say, that being a SAHM doesn't make for an equal relationship. It doesn't make for an equal partnership.

janey68 Thu 03-Jan-13 11:48:50

I totally agree permanentlyexhausted.

It's a really cheap jibe to start throwing around comments like 'mothers not being there all the time'.

The situation where a parent (either mother or father) genuinely isn't there, either through death or genuine estrangement is extremely sad. Having parents who work is not remotely comparable. Working is a normal fact of life for most adults. The op is the exception in having left school and never ever had a paid job in her entire life (and it's an exception many of us wouldn't choose)

Parents who work are still the primary carers for their children. They are still the most central people in their children's lives. They remain the biggest influence. And hey- their children grow up perfectly well adjusted and happy and successful.

So stay at home if it makes you happy and fulfilled and your partner is happy to work to enable you that lifestyle. But dont try to make any claim that it will make your children happier OP. Do it because it suits you and you don't want to work and because youve found a partner who is willing to do the stuff you don't want to and vice versa

Permanently
I agree about that comment
I wasn't so happy about my mum not being there all the time during my teenage years because she inconveniently got cancer and died.

OP - glad you're happy. I hope you have protected yourself financially, see the thread linked to earlier on being a SAHM for some ideas, if you haven't already made provisions. DH is a SAHD (now starting a business) and I protected our family income so if something happens to me, he and the children will be OK.

My view on children doing jobs around the house etc is that it is good for the child to take responsibility and also I wouldn't want my sons growing up thinking that it is a woman's role to tidy up after a bloke. (Hopefully, when my sons grow up, they will have partners who will secretly appreciate that!).

Whatever makes you happy. I worked for the first 15 years of ds1s life and until ds2 was 7. I became a sahm when ds3 was born.

They do help around the house because I think it's important but they probably do more now I'm at home than when I was working as I have more time to teach them to cook and they're in the house more than they were when I worked.

My mum was a sahm, it didn't do us any harm. Both me and my dsis trained as nurses, worked and are able to cook/clean etc even though our mum did everything for us. Being a sahm to daughters doesn't mean they won't work and have careers.

My mum went back to work when we were 14 and 10

Unfortunatlyanxious Thu 03-Jan-13 12:07:10

Children leave home at some point, my elder sis was like you. Her eldest dd is about to leave our home town her youngest left a few years ago. She is distraught and realises she has never done anything for herself and feels redundant. We were neglected as dc so I think she over compensated. What was your childhood like?

I have been a SAHM in the past and it was fine and it was nice to be able to do for a while but I make my dc help and also do have an outside hobby, though that is currently on hold.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 12:07:16

i really hate this whole working mum vs sahm.My mil is always goingon about it,my dhs sil has 6 kids and is a headteacher,number 6 is a few days old and shes going back to workin march,not really what i would want to do but from what i can see they are all happy,the kids are lovely,well behaved,responsible and kind.

I am sahm of 4 and i do so because i like it,my dearns plenty for us both and if he ever ditched me for a "younger shinier model" i would be minted anywayso that side of it doesnt worry me.

I think there is no right or wrong way,years ago women HAD to sahm and i imagine a lot of them really hated it,and their kids probably didnt benefit from that,at least now the ones who dont want a career too can do so and surely a happy mother is better than an unhappy resentful one?(and vice cersa,dont go to work if you really want to be at home!)

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 12:07:51

sorry that should of been dh earns

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 12:11:46

Amber I would advise you to check your figures very very carefully. I seriously doubt if your DP ditched you for a younger shinier model you'd be minted.

kim147 Thu 03-Jan-13 12:14:16

You've only got to read the threads on here about maintainance. Or lack of it.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 12:14:48

And there is much much more to having a life than being minted. Seriously. All the money in the world wouldn't have replaced my friends or got me a fulfilling job. Or made me happy.

cory Thu 03-Jan-13 12:19:25

Seeing that I'm going in for an op in January, it is a relief to reflect that I am loved by my family, that I am wanted by them, but that I am not indispensable; if anything were to go wrong, or if my problem was more serious (which it is not), it is reassuring to reflect that they would cope well on their own. In the same way, when dh was handed his redundancy letter before Christmas it was a relief to him to know that I am qualified and would be able to help support the family.

It doesn't imply any lack of faith in marriage as an institution to realise that one of you may fall ill or otherwise unable to perform their usual role. Dh is a thoroughly reliable person, but not so reliable he can't get cancer or be run over by a bus. I'm reliable too, but not to the point of being able to guarantee I will always be in good health.

Wanksock Thu 03-Jan-13 12:20:30

My MIL is like the OP (has to feel needed) and now with grown up children, she is always trying to 'help' in order to feel 'needed'. It's a pain in the arse. She also did everything for them and as a result my DH left home completely clueless about cooking, cleaning etc etc. It's not good. I will teach DS how to clean things properly and how to cook basic meals and so on and hopefully my future DIL will thank me for it ;) I also encourage DH to do stuff around the house as I don't want DS growing up watching me do all the chores while DH sits on his backside!

janey68 Thu 03-Jan-13 12:21:40

I agree with that point recharge. A fulfilling life comes about in all sorts of ways- often its a mix of things, being a parent, friendships, interesting career, hobbies. There's a hell of a lot more to life than thinking 'I'll be minted if my husband leaves me!!' And anyway, it's also absolutely correct that many women seriously over estimate how well off they would be financially anyway. Even when it comes to their own pension provision the stats show that a scary number of women have made inadequate provision and just assume erroneously that they'll get their husbands if he dies first. And that's without even starting on women who are left high and dry when their husband leaves them

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 12:28:22

Janey68 I agree. In my case my exH is self-employed in his family business which has a very very good accountant. This gave us a good standard of living when we were together. However, the assets of the business are well protected and on paper he owned very little and drew a very small salary. I receive very little maintenance, although he does pay it, which I realise is better than many. And yes I could take it to court and fight it out but the only winners then would be the solicitors and I might lose and it would damage the relationship we have now where we can work together fairly well for the children.

feelingdizzy Thu 03-Jan-13 12:37:06

Am constantly baffled by these threads,what is the issue here?

The OP seems happy doing it her way,Its definitely not my way,but the OP would most likely hate my life being a single parent,working as a Teacher and studying for my masters.

I don't want her life she doesn't want mine,sorted we can both stay where we are.

Joiningthegang Thu 03-Jan-13 12:42:42

What does your dh do to support 7 people on such short hours? (genuinely curious, I would like such a job)

My dp works 8-4.30 in construction and this supports 6 of us.

Adversecamber Thu 03-Jan-13 12:53:21

I do agree about the maintenance issues, have a relative whose other half went to Canada and she did not receive maintenance. Also another dsis of mines ex worked cash in hand. I know some NRP's pay decent amounts of maintenance but there seems an awful lot who don't.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 13:00:10

The other thing I wanted to say was that once your "D"H starts to have an affair or meets someone else or decides to leave because you're too grumpy or too fat or too old - they aren't your DH anymore. That person you are in a marriage with, they don't exist anymore. They are a different person and they won't behave in the way you have come to expect. Because they aren't that person any more. So all the guarantees and stuff they've said in the past - it's out the window it's gone it doesn't mean anything anymore- because the person who said it isn't that person in front of you not anymore.

So the how you think it'll be or the how you and him discussed it would be if you ever split - it won't happen like that because the "D"H you're dealing with isn't the DH that was in your bed for 20 years.

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 13:04:50

I'm a SAHM, quite comfortably so.

I have always been in paid employment since the age 14. I stopped working at 34 after 11 working in a profession to middle management level.

I found it hard to relax actually not working the first year. I've since had my second dc, which was and is completely different to the very stressful time I had with dc1 when working. TBH I don't think I would have conceived even.

I'm happy traditional roles at the moment, it works for us I feel I emable my DH to go out every day and work long hours in demanding job. He had the opportunities and greater earning potential, he could not do his job if I did not do his share of parenting.

I'm happy with this as DH used to be primary parent as he worked less hours than me previously and did more domestically on a daily basis. For us it has been a case of interchanging when needed to do so in response to circumstances.

Sadly I also had the benefit of a temporary separation, things got pretty bad, so I know how vulnerable the lower/non earner can be financially speaking. I don't think I could hop back in to a middle management role but I could do some consultancy and earn decent money to support myself and kids, though probably not to the level we live at now.

Throughout this I have been studying a part time degree which I feel is an investment in my future and will offer broader port unities when I return to work. I have also found it very nourishing to do this aside from the baby groups etc.

So in all I've been on both sides of the fence ft/pt and I found each to have its benefits and drawbacks for your chilld, family, yourself. It just think its important to do what's best for all three based on what choices you have available,a d I know some have few or none.

I do intend to return to work and will earn less than what I would be had I not had the career break and I know my pension is reduced and currently dormant. So there still lies the inequalities as I see it, but I'm pleased I have something behind. Having said! that, like many in my generation have had babies later, I will need to work longer and know I might not be in as good health when my grandchildren are born.

I don't think a best way exists.

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 13:08:12

That's true recharge a good does of reality there. This is. What happened to me for the short time was painful beyond belief, stressful and yes shocking at who my DH became. We recovered and are happy now, but by god I had my eyes opened and learnt some lessons.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 13:13:00

Feelinggood I'm much happier now than I was I am doing qualifications and hope to have a better job by the end of the year, financially I'm not stoney broke but I am nowhere near as well off as I was when I was married, the kids are great, the exH and me communicate and work together for the kids (and I even babysat for him and his partner only once though in an emergency) and life is getting better for me. But it wasn't easy it's been a hard road and a hard series of lessons to learn. I would just hate anyone else to make the same mistakes I did.

Mosman Thu 03-Jan-13 13:14:23

If you have one or two children you have options of walking out, supporting yourself yadda yadda. I honestly don't think anyone has number 4 or 5 unless they are damned sure their DH is a keeper because the thought of doing that alone would turn me grey over night. I worked full time whilst DH was working away and DC4 was between 12-18 months old and I am not exaggerating when I say it nearly killed me.

cory Thu 03-Jan-13 13:17:28

So does being a "keeoer" mean you can't fall ill or be made redundant, Mosman?

After 30 years I certainly thought of dh as a keeper, but the council has just decided to close the department he has been working in for those 30 years.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 13:18:29

Mosman. I thought mine was a keeper. I was damn sure. I was wrong.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 13:18:59

what kind of role model are you that you're children never seen mum in employment,or study?
would you be Happy to reverse roles for a son to be dependent adult the househusband?
can you envisage you will ever work?or pursue activity other than housewife when kids go

Its certainly something that has to be considered, ds1s dad decided to go se everytime the csa got hold of him. I've had less than £2000 in maintenance in the last 18 years, and agree that the person you were with isn't always the same as the person they become after you break up.

As for what happens if your partner has an illness/accident we have insurances as dps work can be quite dangerous.

AmandaPayne Thu 03-Jan-13 13:42:58

I understand that, to some people, it can feel disloyal to plan as if their DH might leave them. A bit like a pre-nup, which can arose similar feelings. But I am painfully aware that DH could go under a bus, which amounts to much the same thing. I am a SAHM at the moment, and have been for a year, but I am already planning a career reboot at some point (if I can figure out what I want to do!) and returning to work is a serious factor in whether we have a third.

It doesn't mean I think everyone should work, and certainly not all the time, but I think you need to realise the risk you are taking if you never work.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Thu 03-Jan-13 13:47:58

1. What Scottishmummy said

2. Your life sounds a bit sucky to me

3. But overall..meh

jellybeans Thu 03-Jan-13 13:48:51

YANBU. My life is simelar in a way although DH does equal childcare when he is off and I do go to uni/tutorials as study with OU. I also used to work until had DC2. Also I don't do everything for DC they have to do their share of chores etc (not loads but make beds, clean up after tea etc) and DH does some house/garden stuff also. I am happy and don't feel I need to WOH at this point but probably might when they are grown. Also you never know if you may become single, could happy to anyone and then you may have to work like it or not.

Mosman Thu 03-Jan-13 13:52:41

Being ill or redundant isn't the same as walking out the door though is it ?

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 13:54:40

"what kind of role model are you that you're children never seen mum in employment,or study?"

My children don't need to "see me" leave for work or study in the morning (what exactly would they be seeing me do?) to know that I am my family's think tank and to see my negotiation skills in action at home on everyone's behalf smile. I am not silently washing socks and serving hot meals. They all know that the person who keeps their lives moving forward (the ideas and the execution) and harmonious is me. And I happily applaud when I see them acquiring those skills because they are role-modelled daily.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 13:58:12

Mosman. I have more than 4 children and my exH still left me for his secretary. It can and does happen. Having a multitude of children is no protection.

Mosman Thu 03-Jan-13 14:03:24

I'm not suggesting it's some sort of forcefield but you'd think the OP would be pretty confident in her position before having 5 children with the man. Of course there are no guarantee's.

Mosman Thu 03-Jan-13 14:04:56

I'd also say the role model I am presenting to my children when I work isn't the best advertisement for going out to work if i'm honest.
Knackered, harassed and did I mention knackered.

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 14:06:52

Indeed, Mosman sad.

The role model my DSSs' mother is currently providing is: each person fends for himself. No-one is ever home, no family meals, no conversation. Home is a badly run hotel where the guests never talk to one another.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 14:13:15

Mosman. I was very very confident in my position. Smugly confident to be honest. I was damn sure that DH was a keeper. We had been together a million years, we loved each other, he came home every night never went out other than to play football with his mates on a Tuesday night, we were having sex often, he told me how good a mother I was, how lucky he was to have me, the business wouldn't be doing as well if it wasn't for me supporting him, you name it I thought we had it. I was WRONG.

But it's not just about the career aspect of being a SAHM. There's all the other bits around it, the lack of identity other than as a wife and mother, the fact that my money came from him totally - it went into a joint account I could access freely, but the amount was totally and utterly up to him to decide I had no control. And for me that's the biggest thing about a traditional sahm set up you give so much control to the other partner and it just isn't equal. I couldn't go out if he wasn't home from work to babysit, it wasn't my money it was money he gave so once we split up he didn't have to give it any more, I didn't have many friends, not because he was abusive and drove them away like I read on the boards here but simply because my friends were his family. I have read on here about people having equal leisure time and equal left over money and I think that is a fantastic idea but a traditional sahm set up just does not give the sahm that level of equality.

Cabrinha Thu 03-Jan-13 14:17:28

Knock yourself out OP - your choice.
Has anyone asked in the 11 pages so far whether you have a pension equal to your husband's, in your own name?

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 14:20:23

I was brought up I a single parent household, my mother. We had v little but she always worked and studies part time to get a better job. I think this I Implicitly instilled a study/work ethic in me.

I am definitely I charge of the house so to speak, I know what you mean Bonsoir, my ds sees me making decision, planning and doing 'my jobs'. We have shared cooking and child are at the weekends. Over Christmas he has seen us both cooking, washing doing laundry etc and he knows I study and about where I used to work. He has his jobs for pocket money and sometime es he's just expected to pitch in.

<sticks neck out> you could argue that if a child is brought up with traditional role models and they are happen educated etc then they will either chose mate based on their expectations accordingly there maybe a mate outthere who is also interested in sticking to so called traditional roles.

I think we need to remember also that school, peers and life after leaving home also influence choices, role models do not end with us the parents. I know I was heavily influenced by a an ex bf's family as I lived there for a little while.

Whatever way women still are at a disadvantage as we give birth. I don't know what the ideological arguments are underpinning overcoming this, I just make sure we have the same allowance every month grin

Mosman Thu 03-Jan-13 14:23:36

Having worked for at least 6 of my 12 years of motherhood, I haven't got a pension worth getting excited about either and when my DH gets paid I transfer what I know is left for him to spend into his account and the same amount into mine, the bills are covered from a joint one so it's not about SAHM v's WOHM it's about being in a caring equal partnership and people from both camps can discover they aren't in one to their great surprise.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 14:25:44

my housewife friend,her dd was doing the people who help us topic at school
girl listed jobs and drew pictures.all of men undertaking the jobs.only teacher was female
her mum asked what jobs do mums do,she replied teacher.limited direct experience of women doing anything else

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 14:30:54

recahrge yes you right it's not just the career aspects you have restrictions on being able to do stuff,I always feel I. Waiti g for him to come home, I can't commit to gym classes due to his job. BUT I do what the bloody heel I like during the day, albeit with a baby in tow now and during school run.

But he too can't just go out for lunch and catch up with friends like I can as he is at work. At weekends he's knackered and I seem him stressed a lot of the time like I used to get, even before kids. I'm just pleased that there is one of us grounded to maintain the day to day stuff.

Re 3+ families, absolutely as so done said up threading just can't and wouldn't want to contemplate being on my own with so many littlies.

It is true due to my experience and seeing what has happened to friends that you should always have a back up plan and some running away money as people put it. This sounds mistrustful, no I'm mother responsible for all eventualities.

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 14:33:50

scottishmummy - if a child doesn't think women work outside the home, that is not because her mother is a SAHM, it is because, in the community she lives in, she doesn't encounter female bankers, lawyers, doctors, management consultants etc.

cocoachannel Thu 03-Jan-13 14:35:41

Once again the thing that irritates me as a WOHM is the statement about not having to work, along with head tilting and lucky me I dont have to work. Some of us do, but many of us don't but love having a career and are not cut out for staying at home. Others may not want to work but have to and gloating posts about how wonderful staying at home is must be upsetting.

Either way OPs like this either irritate or upset.

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 14:37:16

Very true mosman it's how you cut your cloth...actually we always did that when we both worked full time. I do all financial planning check utilities etc and he often asks, where do I out this transfer etc. he will occasionally want to check something but we are quite transparent. Our attitude to mo ey changed a lot when we reconciled generally though too, but thats another story.

sm that's so sad, but would that still be limited even if her own mum worked anyway re immediate environment. Thinking about it where I grew up everyone did work, all friends mums etc. Now type of jobs a different issue.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 14:40:09

yes exactly it's the mileu her mum inhabits.housewife central,with a skewed representation
the other mums dont work,and in p1 her daughter has limited experience of encountering working mums
it has certainly been thought provoking for her mum

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 14:41:15

That's ridiculous, you can't go through life not talki g about your own life and set up etc for fear of upsetting others. I read OP as she was challenging some views about her own choice.

Really not helpful when we are berated for our choices and there is so etching called freedom of speech (within talk guidelines that is) <salutes MNHQ>

Mosman Thu 03-Jan-13 14:47:40

It's also ridiculous that a child would grow up not knowing their are female Dr's, solicitors etc, what about her immediate family, her aunts, cousins, her GP, if it matters to you you can always find strong role models of either sex.

ivykaty44 Thu 03-Jan-13 14:49:39

kim147, I do agree with you that at face value people post on here about the lack of maintenance - but..

I doubt many RP would start a post saying - oh my ex NRP pays maintenance, it is really only the complaints we hear on here and not the good NRP and how they pay up, usually pay up and over pay up

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 14:56:03

recharge iown half of everything,prpoerty and savings so yes i would be.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 14:58:50

by the way i agree theres more to life than money,i was just pickingup on what someone said about being left high and dry,it doesnt have tobe that way.

i wasnt talking about maintanance i was thinking more of assets.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 15:02:58

my daughter is 3 and firmly believes that mummys have babies and daddies go to work,thats what she sees so its not surprising.we dont live near family so she doesnt see them regularly enough to know they work,most dont actually except one who is a headteacher,and allthe mums iknow at the school are sahm,theres one sahd.

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 15:03:22

AmberSocks - sorry if I took you up wrong. In my case (which is admittedly unusual) the assets are tied up well and truly.

AmandaPayne Thu 03-Jan-13 15:04:04

Amber - Presumably you have a high earning DH though? For most people, one salary simply will not provide enough (either in assets or in maintence) for two households to be maintained without a major drop in living style. Particularly if the earner goes on to have a second family.

HazleNutt Thu 03-Jan-13 15:06:23

If you were married to Berlusconi then indeed you'd probably be quite well off after the divorce, SAHM or not. But an average family who only has the family home and some savings to share? You'd end up with half the assets, less income (if you were the non-working parent) and extra costs, as now 2 homes are needed.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 15:06:33

more to life than money,yes I expect so,when you don't work to earn the said money
if you don't work and contribute to family finances,then one can glibly say more than money
personally I'm immensely proud that I'm solvent,have own money,and have career

LuluMai Thu 03-Jan-13 15:07:00

Amber- you must live in quite an affluent area! I don't actually know a single SAHM- all of my female friends with children work. I don't know any on benefits either though.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 15:08:12

Yes he is a high earner,i guess i can see how difficult it must be if money was tight,would cause all sorts of problems.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 15:10:11

amber are you ok with dd assumption that mummys have babies,daddies work?
where I live its predominately housewives and at school it's rare to work
yes I know kids who think only daddies work,see mummy as home only.v sad

Fluffybumblebee Thu 03-Jan-13 15:13:47

Dear OP, I am sure you and your DH are happy and might stay happy for a long time.

But I want to tell you about very different experiences of me and my DH and how we look at it now.

I come from a line of working mothers: my maternal grandmother was the first one (and the only one) of her family to go into higher education (which has resulted into being the first one to get a professional career). My paternal grandmother lost her husband in a Soviet concentration camp and upon returning home had to train herself and get a job, so she could support herself and her two children (both of whom went onto studying in universities and being successful in their careers).

As a result, both of my parents worked full time since I was few months old. I remember few occasions when I felt sad that my parents could not attend my school concerts during the day, but I don't remember thinking that my parents did not love me. I did not got a day without a hot meal and we had family breakfast instead of family dinners (as my parents used to work until very late hours and I was asleep by the time they used to get home).

My DMIL has worked before she got married to my DFIL and had lovely career prospects in the future, but gave it all up to stay at home with children. It was her own decision, which was fully supported by DFIL. My DH says that when he was a child he enjoyed her being a SAHM, but as he and his siblings got older they just did not find time spent with her very interesting as they would have very little to talk about.

DMIL has recently started working again (after ~20 years of being a SAHM), but was not able to get a similar type of job that she was good at, as the type of job that she was doing has been greatly computerised. And if you want to do this type of job now you need a lot of knowledge, training and specialist qualifications. At the moment she is doing unqualified work that she enjoys, but there is no prospect of furthering her career or getting a pay rise. DPIL are still happily married, but I sometimes feel really sad for my MIL as she hasn't got many friends and her children don't talk to her very often.

I can't force my DH (and his siblings) to talk to his mother more often, but he feels that they have very little to talk about. On the other hand he likes talking to my DM, who works ~50 hour a week, travels to conferences, attend courses, seminars, belongs to various professional bodies and does other job related things. They spend hours talking about politics, law, job prospects, conferences and other things, even though we all do completely different jobs. It is like learning from each other.

You know, OP, job does not only bring you financial security, but also broader understanding of the world, meeting new interesting people, learning about politics, law and economics, and other intellectual things. I am not saying that SAHM have no interests. They do. My DMIL reads a lot and you can discuss some books with her, but its impossible to discuss any professional literature (of any sorts) with her, as she only reads fiction.

I truly hope that your kinds would not find you boring when they get older, as I can see how upsetting this is for my DMIL.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 15:14:10

i dont think its v sad,not at 3 anyway!

It doesnt bother me,simply because,its not true!Most mums work these days or so im told,so its something she will realise when she needs to,and as far as im aware,there is nothing,sad,strange,or wrong about staying at homelooking after your children and having babies?

She says she wants to be aidwife when shes older anyway so i guess she knwos in some way that women do work!plus she knows grandmas a teacher.

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 15:17:52

fluffy its wrong to assume sahm cant be any of the things you mentioned,if anything they have more time to persue interests than if they were working,once the children are at school anyway.Im not saying that a lot of sahm arent like that,and again it comes down to money,because that givesyou the freedom to do things like travel,have hobbies,see friends and family.

and i read non fiction too!

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 15:22:49

ok so if it's not sad at 3 to have such views is it still ok at 12,16 to think only dad work?
at what point do you introduce working hard, something for self,career,own money
or is marrying well a good enough aspiration,is that something you're happy to endorse

everlong Thu 03-Jan-13 15:26:47

Trust me to pick today to 'bottom' the house and miss this little gem.

Only read the OP's first post and a few others. <ponders on how it's panned out>>

One question. Why tell us? 4eva <does that arms crossing peace out sign>

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 15:27:48

scottishmummy - but not all SAHMs only know SAHMs and never consult male doctors or lawyers or anything. My DD knows that lots of her friends' mothers work outside the home (she has no idea what they do because banking and international arbitration and mining are fairly obscure to her still) and those friends know that lots of mothers do not work outside the home. I admit that I only ever take my DD to female doctors, dentists etc - I very much doubt she knows men can be doctors.

iismum Thu 03-Jan-13 15:29:40

My mum was just like you - I never did a thing for myself till I left home. I kind of liked it growing up, but now I'm an adult with a family of my own I find the domestic side of life pretty tough. The house is often messy, I'm often behind on the laundry, etc. I know this is my fault and my responsibility, but I do feel annoyed with my mother for not making it part of my life from an early age. It's not that any of the skills are at all hard to master, it's more that I always feel a bit resentful of doing it and feel like it should be someone else's job, and I think this comes from my upbringing. DH's mother worked when he was young and he is much better at it than I am.

iismum Thu 03-Jan-13 15:30:42

To clarify - by 'you', I mean OP.

Fluffybumblebee Thu 03-Jan-13 15:30:47

Amber, I am not generalising, just telling how it is in our family. I am sory if I have insulted you, I definitely did not mean it.

I know that not every SAHM has no interests, but it was the case for my DMIL. It is not that she did not have any interests, she just had no time for them as she worked very hard at home making sure that kids and husband were happy, fed, house was clean and children did all their homework and extra curricular activities. Big age gaps between children (and some children being at home, while others went to school) meant that she had very little time for her own interests, immersing herself into children's activities.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 15:31:33

as you said,dd can live in a community where women don't work,and not encounter working women

janey68 Thu 03-Jan-13 15:35:13

For me (and I'm sure it's true of many others) it really boils down to the very simple fact that most of us partner someone of similar ability, educational achievement and outlook, values etc. This was less true in the past - girls were simply denied the educational and career opportunities which boys had, and the social structures of the past pushed men and women into polarised positions: housewife and earner. Now that those societal restrictions no longer exist, many couples want 'a bit of both'. I am as capable of earning and having an interesting career as my dh is. He is as capable of changing a nappy or cooking dinner as I am. It therefore makes sense to us to both have a good balance in our lives- neither of us feeling we have to stay home full time or work stupid hours chasing endless promotions as sole earner.

I think if it suits you as a couple to have polarised roles then fine, it's your choice, but i find it completely natural in the 21st century that many couples find it more fulfilling and a great role model for the family to have more of a balance

Itsjustmeanon Thu 03-Jan-13 15:44:42

YANBU. Whatever works for you.

We cannot afford for me to be a traditional SAHM. I've always been envious of SAHMs.

ThreeTomatoes Thu 03-Jan-13 15:45:18

You know what, I often think of my grandma who was very much housewife, and threw herself into it (she also worked P/T in her younger days tho). She seemed to love taking care of the family and spent much of her time in the kitchen cooking (I LOVED her food). She was also very much in control and wore the trousers, bigtime. Just before she died she asked my mum (her DIL) to "Look after them" (my grandad and aunt who still lived there due to disability) and explained where the blankets & so on were kept!! In a way I envy her absolute devotion to her role, I couldn't do it, not without seething resentment or martyr-dom, or worry about the fate of my DC and DP; & sometimes I think life would be simpler if i could just get on with it.

Forget the children for a minute, with any luck they'll grow up and be able to learn all that stuff regardless (assuming the boys don't just marry someone like their mum when they're 18 wink) - do you ever wonder what could become of your DH?

I watched my grandad fall apart after my grandma died. He didn't know how to cook, clean, do laundry, any of that stuff, and was too old to start learning or changing his ways; my aunt did what she could until she too died; he then fell into deep depression and alcoholism, hardly ate. He eventually had to go into a home and is now thriving in his late 80s - because he's being looked after again, as he was his whole life by his wife, and daughter.

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 15:45:41

"as you said,dd can live in a community where women don't work,and not encounter working women"

Sure, but it is not (as you implied in your first post) an inevitability for children of SAHMs and a reason not to SAHM.

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Thu 03-Jan-13 15:50:30

YANBU. You are allowed to live your life the way you want.

From a personal point of view, it would not be my choice, however the way i live my life would probably not be your choice.

My main concern with being a SAHM permanently is what happens when you children leave home? And what happens if, god forbid, your DH had an affair and left you? Do you have any qualifications or work experience you could fall back on? Do you have any money of your own to support yourself with?

Startail Thu 03-Jan-13 15:52:06

YANBU
I'm a SAHM, I'm just a bit bad at the house wife bit, so I do get DH to Hoover and clean sometimes.

No one irons, I do washing and most cooking.

DH can cook, he did Christmas dinner.

DH can look after DCs even if I generally did when they were small.

Nothing wrong in whatever works for you.

So long as your DH does know how to look after himself and the children if you are I'll or fancy a night off.

My DDad is absolutely hopeless and now DMum isn't very mobile my DSIS ends up picking up the pieces.

ThreeTomatoes Thu 03-Jan-13 15:55:14

BTW, a little anecdote from a 3 yo me (at the time my dad WOHM'd, my mum SAHM'd till i was 8/9) in answer to the question "What do you want to be when you grow up?"

"A Daddy - because they don't have to do anything"

grin

<<Disclaimer: my parents ultimately stopped having traditional roles, I think because my mum's quite a feminist and did not allow it to happen!! My dad cooks and does his share of housework and has done for many years.>>

EllenJaneisstillnotmyname Thu 03-Jan-13 15:57:24

I was a SAHM for 10 years, until my youngest went to school when I took a part time job in a school to fit around the DC. I loved it, my DS2 has SN and needed me and I never enjoyed my career.

But, my 'keeper' of a 'D' H left me for an OW after being together for 22 years. I am not minted, I still can only work P/T due to DS2's needs. Not what I had planned. If I had known exH was a dick, I might have made different choices, but I truly though he was forever.

So, it benefitted my DS2 especially, being a SAHM. It benefitted me at the time, and exH, who knew his DC were being looked after and his career would never have to take second place. Ill DC, hospital appointments, school holidays can be a juggling act for WOH parents. I would never begrudge anyone who worked because they wanted something other than being a mum in their lives, who felt more valued with a job, or who simply needed a job to have a decent standard of living, or even any standard of living. I was lucky that I could choose to be a SAHM, I thought.

It's shit, now, though.

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 03-Jan-13 16:16:39

I think it's quite controlling to make yourself be needed. Nothing to do with staying at home or working but to make validate yourself and control others by making them need you is strange.

I feel sorry for your daughter in laws already.

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 16:19:21

LOL, ThreeTomatoes - my DSS1 said of his father once "I want to be a CEO like Daddy when I grow up - he earns a lot of money and doesn't have to do much." This was at a time when DP spent all his spare time with the DSSs, worried that their mother wasn't doing enough. He did realise he was giving them a false view of what his life entailed...

AmberSocks Thu 03-Jan-13 16:19:32

the thing that makes me sad about this debate is that feminism was supposed to mean that women had equality with men,like choosing whether to stay at home or work.

Men/media/general public dont seem to care if we stay athome or work these days,its just women that seem to care,so its gone from men telling us what we cant do to other women?

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 16:21:29

"I think it's quite controlling to make yourself be needed. Nothing to do with staying at home or working but to make validate yourself and control others by making them need you is strange."

I agree. But I think that it is one (I agree, bad way) that women have traditionally used in order to ensure their role is recognised. Bringing children up to be independent and managing their experiences so that they don't feel they need you (even when they still do) can be quite difficult - they feel you aren't doing anything!

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 16:22:46

men don't do anything?well some maintain housewife to do even less
hoho,a aren't men silly quip.bet they can't even fluff and fold
well that doesn't do anything man maintains housewife and her no can do attitude

BunFagFreddie Thu 03-Jan-13 16:23:56

I think it's nice that OP is happy and enjoys what she does. blush

ChristmasKnackers Thu 03-Jan-13 16:31:35

I would just find it soooo boring! But that's just me.

ThreeTomatoes Thu 03-Jan-13 16:33:06

oh i never said whether i thought you were BU or not. I think YANBU, because you're happy with it and presumably the rest of your family are. There are just consequences of it that would worry me if i were you, that's all.

BigSpork Thu 03-Jan-13 16:39:32

OP - I'm glad you are happy, it's great you have the options that make your family happy and run smoothly, I just don't get your use of the word 'traditional'. It's only been traditional for the very wealthy classes until fairly recently.

Women have always worked and provided for their families since the butt crack of time. It's been historically ignored, often from the home or in the homes of others, but women have traditionally been economically active alongside their partners and the rest of the family. The staying at home being completely provided for woman is a fairly new for most groups and has no traditions in it. The idea that women working is something new/modern erases the continued efforts of women across time and space.

sugarandspiced Thu 03-Jan-13 16:53:00

If it works for you, fine.

I think you should maybe rethink the fact that you do everything in the house and are not teaching your children important life skills.

I agree with the comment about it being a little controlling.

Remember, DC do grow up one day and relationships and needs change.

I say this as the child of a mother rather like you (although she was qualified with a good career before becoming a mother).

Feminine Thu 03-Jan-13 17:02:39

I think its really silly to assume/worry that if a woman hasn't worked outside the home she will have nothing to talk about confused

I've done both. Right now I'm at home...soon I guess I'll need to find outside work.

Either way I'm just as interesting! grin

janey68 Thu 03-Jan-13 17:04:27

YY to the comments about making oneself needed being a very controlling and fairly Unattractive tactic. That applies with any relationship- husband/ wife, parent/child, friendships...

People who seek validation through trying to make other people need them are actually being quite selfish, and thinking about their own needs

This is of course very different to being generous and kind spirited and seeking to help others when they have a genuine need arise. I hope I would always be ready to step up and meet a friends need if I could- but actually wanting them to need me would be really self centred. Ditto with husband and children... I would prefer they spend time with me because they want to rather than because I've created a dependency.

CockyPants Thu 03-Jan-13 17:12:36

Wow.
Some really bitter people/posts on this thread.
Jealous, maybe?
I'm a SAHM too,1 child.
Always have things to do, cleaning, food shopping. Now DD is at school I've gone back to college to study Spanish. Educated to degree. More than happy to 'run' the home and look after my DD. My mum was SAHM, didn't make me do chores either. I haven't turned out so badly, thanks for asking.
And I am a feminist too, kind regards henceforth....

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 17:23:54

Fluffy - your MIL's kids don't have little to do with her because she was a sahm! And that's not the reason she didn't have much to say. There is some right daft stuff being said about sahm. I'll never regret being home for my kids and kids benefitz from having their mum/main carer at home when they are small.

KobayashiMaru Thu 03-Jan-13 17:26:04

<yawn> how typical, we're not all giving a round of applause so we must be jeaous?

Be a sahm, well for you, nobody cares either way. But boasting about never having worked, never planning to, never contributing to society, it's not really something to be proud of, is it? And its not something to be jealous of, to be sure!

Amothersruin Thu 03-Jan-13 17:29:47

Some of us believe that by providing a stable home life for our children that we are "contributing" to society though kobaya-and btw your posts fairly screams green eyed monstergrin

KobayashiMaru Thu 03-Jan-13 17:31:58

not sure how, since I am a contented SAHM and have been for several years. Did you actually read it? hmm

CockyPants Thu 03-Jan-13 17:33:12

I'm not looking for anyone's approval thanks for asking. More than happy with my choice. Just asking for women to respect each others choices and not bitch about it. WAHMvSAHM, BFvFF, Kids v no kids....when will the infighting stop??
Women are their own worst enemies.

Amothersruin Thu 03-Jan-13 17:33:48

So you dont value your own contribution to society as a sahm then kobaya?-or does only financial contribution count in your eyes?...

KobayashiMaru Thu 03-Jan-13 17:38:15

Um, again, read. I do thanks, but life is longer than these years with young children. Most SAHM have worked at some point, and/or will do after their children grow. At the least they might do some volunteer work, unlike OP who plans on sah long after her children are gone.
Your children are not such immense gifts to the world that you need do nothing else your entire life.

It's not about fighting, in reality, no-one cares which is why the bemusement at the OP starting this thread merely to inform us all how wonderful her life is. Very nice, but why the fuck are you telling us this?

kim147 Thu 03-Jan-13 17:38:29

<Wonders where Xenia is - she'd love this thread smile >

sugarandspiced Thu 03-Jan-13 17:41:55

No jealousy here cockypants. That assumption makes you sound v over sensitive to be honest.

Good for you if you like being a SAHM but it isn't the right choice for everyone nor is it necessarily the best choice/ the one that produces the happiest children/ the best relationships with adult children.

amothersruin- I have to admit that I giggled at your post. You do know that working parents can provide a stable home too right?

A typical working life could be 45 years give or take. It doesn't take that long to raise a family so it is reasonable to expect a 'contribution to society' in addition to raising a family.

CockyPants Thu 03-Jan-13 17:44:56

I'm one of the few SAHM in DDs class, there are GPs, oncologists, 2 lawyers, business women etc. Their mums(ie the grandmas) have often said 'good' and 'well done' when I answer their question as to what I do for a living. Interesting how social attitudes have changed.!
I enjoyed reading your post, fluffy. Thought provoking.

CockyPants Thu 03-Jan-13 17:46:26

Over sensitive? No just sick of being regarded as an anti feminist uneducated gold digger layabout who does fuck all!!grin

sugarandspiced Thu 03-Jan-13 17:48:40

Do you really get a lot of comments to that effect cocky?

I have never had anyone comment to my face about my choices- not that I would care if they did!

KobayashiMaru Thu 03-Jan-13 17:49:12

Unless anyone has actually said that to you (and I highly doubt it), you've just proved the oversensitive comment true.
And well done for being a sahm? I'd find that patronising personally.

WilsonFrickett Thu 03-Jan-13 17:49:40

I too am longing for some Xenia action Kim. She needs a call button...

Permanentlyexhausted Thu 03-Jan-13 17:50:52

Cockypants But what do you think it means when the grandmothers say 'good' and 'well done'? Is it because they think you have made a more valid choice than their own daughters and DILs? Would you expect them to say "Well, what a waste of space you are!" if they didn't agree with your choice?

Xenia will be at work smile

CockyPants Thu 03-Jan-13 17:55:15

Frankly I'm more bored of the in fighting.
Didn't feel patronised by the girls grandmas at all.
I'm happy with my choice, and I hope that all the other posters on here are happy with theirs, too. I haven't got anything else useful to add to the discussion, and I don't want to be drawn into daft point scoring!

janey68 Thu 03-Jan-13 17:55:17

Lol at the comment which tries to make a correlation between 'stable home life' and not working. Since when has having parents who worked meant that children aren't provided with stability?

And to take that to it's logical conclusion, you would expect to never have family breakdown or lack of harmony in families where one or both parents aren't working!

What utter nonsense.

I wonder where the op has gone? I also wonder why she started this thread. Boredom I reckon grin

Permanentlyexhausted Thu 03-Jan-13 17:59:57

Which was exactly my point Cockypants. If you're bored of the infighting (I know I am) then why perpetuate it?

Since you are bored of the infighting that is a rhetorical question. You don't have to answer it!

smile

CockyPants Thu 03-Jan-13 18:00:28

Permanently, I posted what grandmas etc said just to show how attitudes about working mums have changed. Not to do an oooh get me pat on the back!! I get the impression that my fellow mums thinks I'm a bit nuts to stay at home. A few have said they couldn't do it, and prefer working. I don't think I could remain sane juggling child and a job. But that's just me.

Permanentlyexhausted Thu 03-Jan-13 18:04:12

OK.

thebody Thu 03-Jan-13 18:41:55

What works for you works for you. Personally I was a very happy sahm until my dh was unemployed and then I had to get work. I did and managed and enjoyed it.

Now I work and feel its quite good for my self esteem and love earning my own money.

BUT each to their own aye..

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 19:42:26

when working mum says she likes working,mn armchair psychiatrist says jealous
how so?it's wholly possible to not want to do something whilst not denying or projecting
hard as it us for some of you to believe,not everyone wants be a housewife

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 20:10:43

God it tough being a sahm and keeping up with these threads.

everlong you can round and ' bottom' here if you like, I could pay you in cake n chocolates, sorry booze in garge grin

OxfordBags Thu 03-Jan-13 20:32:30

I am a SAHM but not a housewife. If that's what you mean by traditional, then I am most definitely non-traditional. Not letting your children do anything around the home is really bad for them, for different reasons for either sex. At its most basic, it actually works to stop them truly being part of the family; being a family is about everyone pitching in and supporting one another, be that in trad roles like breadwinner + housewife, or otherwise, and children need to learn about that sort of reciprocity. They won't suddenly magically learn to pull their weight or not view future partners as the ones who should be responsible for domestic matters at some random point in their adult future, you know.

Above all, not doing any sort of chore is actively depriving them of some very positive things; feeling helpful and useful, being able to do things for their parents, showing their appreciation and understanding of what their parents do for them, taking pride in small achievements, and so on. There's nothing wrong with being a trad SAHM, but you're not actually being traditional if you do everything for them - in the past, when nearly all families worked along your model of domesticity, children most certainly had to pitch in, boys and girls!

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 03-Jan-13 20:40:11

I do wonder why it always seems to be SAHMs who start these kind of passive-aggressive threads. Perhaps it's because they are aware that they are not respected by parts of society for their lifestyle. I don't blame them for being fed up with this but I do wish they'd find another outlet for it, these threads are most tiresome, as are assumptions that stable home life cannot be provided by working parents etc.

KobayashiMaru Thu 03-Jan-13 20:40:54

Because we have so much more time to kill?

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Thu 03-Jan-13 20:44:06

I studiously avoided advancing that theory. Personally, I can see quite well how SAHM-ing activitiis could easily expand to fill a day. it's just not the sort of day I enjoy spending, not on a regular basis, anyway.

kim147 Thu 03-Jan-13 20:44:51

I think my Ex SIL who has 2 teenage girls who pretty much take care of themselves, orders food online and has a cleaner seems to have time for herself. In between lunching with friends, gym, swimming and shopping.

But that's just her. I know many SAHMs don't have much time to kill. Especially with younger children.

Personally, I'd hate to put myself and my family in such a vulnerable position. If something happened to your DH so that he could no longer work, you'd be screwed - all of you. Not to mention if he ran off with a younger model. Being SAHM mum is a valid choice, but never to have worked, to have no qualifications, no skills to fall back on? Very dangerous.

I also think everyone should contribute positively and practically to society outside of their families, be that in part-time paid or voluntary work like running a toddler group, being on the school board of governors, volunteering for a local charity etc. To focus all your time and energy solely on your family is selfish and teaches your children that they are the centre of the universe. Not healthy and a nightmare for their future spouses.

So I'm baffled as you why you'd start a thread like this. Are you bragging? You say you want to start conversation but don't actually say what you want to converse about.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 20:57:53

mn is awash with posts from those whose dp do sweet fa chores at home as never did
consequently they then expect their own dp to skivvy about like their own mum
you're not setting good example or developing autonomous adult by doing everything

bickie Thu 03-Jan-13 22:19:54

I admit I was very jealous of two SAHM's I spotted in local Nero after school drop off. They looked so cozy and contented with their big milky latte's and their woolly jumpers and comfy ugg boots. It was cold and raining and I could have wept I was so wanting to be them rather than facing commuters on a crowded tube and facing up to a day of difficult meetings. I went over to say hello - and was about to tell them how lucky they were - when they told me they were discussing whether or not facial hair suited the new P.E teacher. 'What did I think'?!!! Mmm could't say really. Not saying all SAHMS have fuck all to talk about ... just saying ...

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:22:26

I dunno karlos, I find biccie's post far more passive aggressive.

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 22:23:36

heehee the ugg boots alone would have discouraged me approaching
never mind the inane conversation
but then I have bigger fish to fry than whether the pe teacher has mustache

Bonsoir Thu 03-Jan-13 22:29:47

bickie - it's not that they have nothing to talk about - it's just early morning chit chat.

There are WOHMs that sneak along to post drop-off coffee with SAHMs at our school in search of a bit of light relief too.

KobayashiMaru Thu 03-Jan-13 22:33:49

What should they have been talking about? Chinese censorship? German economics in the interwar years? Seriously, what the fuck? hmm

bickie Thu 03-Jan-13 22:34:19

Gimmecake - It is terrible I know - because actually I am in total agreement that each to their own - I really do get why women would choose to be SAHMs. I just get so depressed when grown women seem to have nothing other than their children and the school or the PTA to talk about. It may just be my area - where there are a lot of wealthy SAHM with a truckload of staff - so they don't have bigger fish to fry. I am sorry to be passive aggressive. It's why I don't come on MN often - brings out the worst in me. blush

blueshoes Thu 03-Jan-13 23:42:21

Koba, no one expects SAHMs to be discussing the fiscal cliff after the morning drop off. It is just the inanity of making light and banal conversation more often than once in a while that will do my head in. Hence I am at the school gate very occasionally but prefer to trot off to work on most days.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 23:42:27

It must be where you live bickie... Is it somewhere posh grin

I freelance on projects and do them in the evening so am sort of a sahm and I deliberately chose this route to be home with my young children but each to their own. I do find a lot of snidey comments seem to get directed at sahm on threads like these which is unpleasant.

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 23:43:44

Scottishmummy - yes we know as you always love to tell us how you think working mums are soooooo much better... <yawnnnnn>

scottishmummy Thu 03-Jan-13 23:47:10

wonder if the pe teacher with mustache male or female?
wonder if it dead noticeable
folk in ugg boots have no reason to admonish anyone else,given how minging uggs are

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 23:52:31

you know when i worked full time and it was coffee or lunchtime i still talked about tv, shopping etc and not eu referendums and such like. equally i got into a discussion with a school gate mum about middle east and was shocked at their views to point ive sistanced myself

u cant be serious about generalising content of convos

gimmecakeandcandy Thu 03-Jan-13 23:58:09

I like uggs and am glad I do especially as you don't Scottish!

Feelingood Thu 03-Jan-13 23:59:46

i look at uggs then think nah, im too tight to oay out esp for suede

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 00:08:01

Where is OP? Still washing up??!

Mosman Fri 04-Jan-13 05:13:55

Meow

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 08:05:59

Well, i haven't yet seen a thread which starts:

'I work. I am a parent and I have a job too. Don't really need to tell you that and I don't wish to discuss any aspect of it. I just wanted to start a thread telling you all'

Until that happens, I'm sticking with the facts, which are that WOHM will (quite rightly ) vigorously defend themselves when they encounter some of the bullshit flung around, but they don't start threads to deliberately shit stir and attack how other people do things.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 04-Jan-13 08:13:14

I'm happy for you. I'd love that opportunity I really would.

Your family, your choice.

I am, and suspect I will always remain, completely baffled by anyone, male or female, rich or poor, whose life's ambition is never to work. And no, once your children are in school, being a SAHP isn't work, it's a lifestyle choice. Your choice, sure, but not one I'll ever understand.

NumericalMum Fri 04-Jan-13 08:40:18

I wohm, I have a job with big responsibilities etc but if I was sitting in a coffee shop I would be talking about something inane. Who really takes themselves that seriously that they talk about work with people in a coffee shop?

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 08:58:38

You sound very happy and content with your lot OP and if you have that happy positive attitude with the rest of your life, working or not, you will probably be busy and fulfilled.

Ime the twenty somethings today who are WOHM don't seem to have the guilt chip on their shoulder that previous generations have, they have to work to pay the mortgage so the SAHM is not an option and their DCs will be fine there's not a problem.

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 09:00:55

being a SAHP isn't work, it's a lifestyle choice

Jeesh, there certainly used to be many jobs which involved pushing paper around or being in charge, with little evidence of results from either.

Arisbottle Fri 04-Jan-13 09:07:50

I have been a SAHP for different lengths of time , four times. Even with a pre schooler or a few pre schoolers I would not really call it work .

It was however the most rewarding time in my life.

bickie Fri 04-Jan-13 09:25:43

Numerical - I was more trying to make the point that as wonderful as it looked, when I got a bit closer to it - it was fun but pretty boring and I was happy to be going into work rather than waste time on yet another inane conversations. I spend a lot of time with SAHM as that is the majority of our school population - so there is a lot of dinner parties, sports watching, coffee mornings etc that of course I attend when I can. Many were lawyers, bankers, consultants - and many were PA's. For many different reasons they decided not to work - all can afford not to because most of their DH's are in the city. But I can tell you, very honestly and not trying to be passive aggressive - the conversations whether at a coffee morning or a cocktail party, are rarely more profound than the immediacy of their lives. So no I am not looking for a drop off - dropping off the fiscal ledge conversation, but I also think the education that went into many of these women is being severely wasted. Aristotle is right - being a mother to young children is the most rewarding time of your life - so why not make sure the rest of your life is just as rewarding.

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 09:32:53

I can honestly say hand on heart that I find being a parent just as rewarding now that my children are older (12 and 9) than when they were very small. And for all I know it will carry on being just as rewarding when they grow up even more. I work with a number of colleagues who have adult children and they often talk about things they've done at weekends and it's clear they adore their children's company.

Having a child is for life- not just the pre school years- and it always seems a bit sad if people think its all downhill once they start school. So i totally agree with that last sentiment about making sure every phase of life is fulfilling

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 09:42:05

When I was a WOH person, I and most of my female colleagues were pretty desperate for light relief. Since there wasn't much time for it, we would often shop in our lunch hour - we worked dangerously close to the rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré and would spend silly amounts of money on shoes and bags in order to cheer ourselves up. The rest of our long days was very serious (and dull). TBH it would have been better to spend 30 minutes having a coffee and chit chat at 9am.

Light relief is a normal and healthy part of life smile.

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 09:44:46

Arisbottle, I wonder if your appreciation of the job (SAHM) was partly due to the fact you knew it was temporary.

Also there is a difference if eg your DH works away from home for days/weeks at a time, or Dh gets home at 8.30 (OP has a DH doing 9-5 (v unusual nowadays)), you have close friends or family helping out so you get the occasional day off, you have adult friends to socialise with during the day etc

Mayisout - I see you neglected to copy the point about "once your children are in school". Yes, some jobs don't involve doing much. So? That doesn't make having coffee mornings while you wait for the afternoon school run any more intellectually challenging or beneficial to society. It's hard to have respect for anyone whose life involves only themselves and their family. It's not about earning money etc, it's about contributing more to society than paying VAT on muffins and a latte. And like I said, I don't aim this just at SAHP, but anyone who doesn't work or volunteer their time.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 09:51:38

"It's hard to have respect for anyone whose life involves only themselves and their family. It's not about earning money etc, it's about contributing more to society than paying VAT on muffins and a latte."

If all adults took proper care of and responsibility for their families, there wouldn't be nearly as many societal problems, AnnieLobseder. Your attitude is reductive and inaccurate.

But Bonsoir, you can take adequate care of your family and also add a little more to your broader community. I would counter your argument with my opinion that people becoming more and more insular and inward-looking, and that less community spirit and mutual help is contributing to many of society's problems. It's the "I'm alright Jack" attitude. No matter how well families look after themselves, there will be people whose circumstances have left them in need of help, and who may not have their own family nearby to provide that help.

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 09:57:02

I see your point AnnieL but don't agree unless the non-worker is taking alot from society as well as not contributing and bringing up children, caring for disabled family etc must surely be contributing.

Of course caring for disables family counts!! I just think everyone should be trying to make a positive contribution, rather than being a negative drain. Why wouldn't you want to leave the world better than you found it?

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 09:59:34

Most people who genuinely help others do so in their own time and without making a song and dance about it. Those who feel the need to "volunteer" within an institutional or organisational context are not necessarily the most helpful - in fact, they are sadly only too often glory-hunters or people with few friends looking for social contact. Many SAHMs have added and continue to add a great deal to the community they are in in a quiet way. Do not overlook this.

But no, bringing up children doesn't count because pretty much everyone does that, and most also manage to work in some form as well.

What does the "noise" anyone makes about their community help matter? I said that running toddler groups, helping at school etc, as many SAHMs do, is a positive contribution. It's the people who do nothing outside of their own family I'm taking about.

MsVestibule Fri 04-Jan-13 10:05:19

Bickie - genuine question - if you had sat down for a coffee with the Ugg wearing, latte wearing SAHMs, what would you have talked to them about?

Just because somebody goes out to work really, really does not make them a more interesting conversationalist. I went out to work for 20 years before having children, working my way up to a relatively senior level. I am now SAHM. However, the chit chat among my former colleagues/current friends has not changed at all - it can/could either be about world politics or which control garments are most effective, and everything in between.

I understand people's concerns about lack of financial autonomy, pension arrangements etc, but I do resent the implication that SAHMs are less interesting because they don't WOH.

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 10:07:24

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. AnnieL.

bringing up children doesn't count because pretty much everyone does that

DN is a social worker and was talking about the thousands in the local town who are heroin addicts, part of that problem I would put down to their parents thinking that bringing up children doesn't count.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:08:38

But the point is, Annie, that you don't know who is making a valuable contribution and who is not. I see SAHMs around me who spend a lot of time on the PTA, toddlers' groups etc (and seek applause for doing so...) and, at the end of the day, they are actually busy filling their own empty days, not helping anyone but themselves. Often their children are not particularly well brought-up or doing very well at school - they get less attention than the children of parents who actually concentrate on their children's needs. Other, quieter but more focused parents, help out people in a quiet way, don't seek the limelight and are actually making a genuine contribution to others' lives.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:10:27

Agree with MayIsOut.

Conceiving and giving birth makes you a parent. It doesn't mean you will take parenting seriously.

FairyJen Fri 04-Jan-13 10:10:48

Not to be the twat on this thread but what exactly are you teaching your children? Are you dd's never going to work or aspire to anything other than washing up? Are your ds's going to solely financially support their families and take that burden on their own?

I have no issue with sahm I'm one at the moment as on may leave however I will be returning to work so my partner is under less pressure, to stimulate my mind and so my dc know and understand the importance of a good education and contributing to society etc.

However secure you think you are I suspect if something did happen to your partner you would struggle immensely to fill that gap. Who the hell would employ you having never worked before? Professional pot washer??? Benefits would be your only option or do you rely on them already?

sugarandspiced Fri 04-Jan-13 10:12:02

Bonsoir- I think the point that AL is making is that you can take proper care of and responsibility for your family and contribute in other ways, whether as a volunteer for an organisation of helping within a preschool/ school setting, etc. I wholeheartedly agree with her about the positive contribution to society and how insular we have become.

I haven't noticed any correlation between whether someone is a SAHM/WOHM and how well their family is taken care of. Once the DC are in school, SAHM is hardly a full time occupation.

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 10:13:11

I agree with aanieL's point.

It's not about making a song and dance about volunteering or helping people out. She's making the point that bringing children up in a healthy balanced way is about embracing the fact that they are part of a wider society rather than focusing 100% of your energy onto your own biological offspring. Obviously when a child has particular needs or disability there may be less time and energy to spend looking outwards but I think what annieL is referring to is more an attitude of mind. I have to say that the most Unattractive and self serving mums I've encountered are a local clique who spend their time obsessing over whether their child is in the top set, where they 'rank' in relation to other children and whether they'll get into a top university. Really, life is bigger than that.

Bonsoir - Of course I don't know who is doing what in their private time. That's why I don't form judgments about people I don't know. hmm

Matisout - I think you're deliberately missing my point, or we're looking at this from two very different angles. This discussion has not at any stage been about dysfunctional families. The point I was trying to make is that some people are so far up their own arses that they think their little ray of sunshine children are so amazing and wonderful that just having squeezed then out of their fanjos was all the positive contribution they ever need to make to the world.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:14:35

I fully understand the point AL is making and I am saying that it is not necessarily those who make a song-and-dance about volunteering that are actually contributing the most to others.

Is it a greater contribution to society to dress up as a witch with the other members of your PTA, hand out sweets for Halloween at the school gate and seek the applause of other school parents (visible) or to quietly support your friend who has cancer and is desperately worried about ensuring her children's future?

bickie Fri 04-Jan-13 10:15:02

Hi MsVestibule, you are right - I would have had the conversation about the school, our children, the PTA rep - as I often do with these Mums. I am not against trivia - just against narrow lives, when in this day and age it is not necessary. I know you resent the implication that SAHM's are less interesting - as would I. I also resent, on behalf of these women when at dinner parties their DH's who are often a big factor in the fact they are now at home, try not to sit next to SAHM's. I have on numerous occasions had the 'oh thank God I got next to you, we can talk about something other than children'. I know this will anger SAHM - it should!!!

I'm pleased to see some people understanding what I'm trying to say, and even agreeing with me! grin

chandellina Fri 04-Jan-13 10:16:46

Someone has to be there for children in the day or to do school runs. I don't think it matters that much who it is, children like having their parents around but also benefit from having hard working parents making the most of their abilities and educations.

sieglinde Fri 04-Jan-13 10:19:09

I think what's hacked off some is the sense in which your OP contains an implicit boast... 'You don't think SAHM can work, but see, look at me!'

Yes, SAHM is all fine if you like it - and not everyone does.... All fine, until it isn't. What if your breadwinner leaves? You will be unemployable. What if he gets sick or dies? Do you have lots of insurance? What happens when your children grow up - as in what happens to you? These are the fears we all harbour, and they restrain us - rightly, I think, but your life belongs to you, and what is any life without some risk?

Chandellina - well, yes, there does need to be someone there for the children once they start school, but it doesn't need to be a parent. There are such things as childminders and before/after school clubs. Also, there are 6 hours between 9 and 3 that need filling up....

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:21:29

"I have to say that the most Unattractive and self serving mums I've encountered are a local clique who spend their time obsessing over whether their child is in the top set, where they 'rank' in relation to other children and whether they'll get into a top university. Really, life is bigger than that."

I think those mothers are taking their children's future seriously and that if you haven't the time or inclination to do so yourself, their attitude makes you anxious.

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 10:22:24

I do see your point but I still think you are wrong.
I am approaching retirement age and DH is past retirement age so what we will do after retirement has been discussed and it was a bit of an eyeopener to realise that people like me, still fit enough to work (part time if not full time) are sitting at home. (though many, in fact, i would guess at, most, are doing some voluntary work). But finding something you are good at, or is available in your area, or you have time for, or that you have the confidence to put yourself forward for is not that easy.

And in the end it is everyone's own choice. We live in a free country and I would wonder what your issues are that make you so anti SAHP, why shouldn't we do what we want - perhaps its v sensible to do what you want that makes you happy rather than martyr yourself because someone else says you should.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:24:30

I think that celebrity culture now unfortunately informs much of people's perception of the worth of others. If people haven't got a publicly validated label attached to their identity, they are "worthless".

bickie Fri 04-Jan-13 10:26:55

"I think those mothers are taking their children's future seriously and that if you haven't the time or inclination to do so yourself, their attitude makes you anxious."

Disagree!!! I think this has become their one and only role - to ensure their children succeed and they support their husband's careers. As women we should have moved on from that role of just being about the future success of our children. It is important of course - but should it be our raison d'être?

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 10:27:42

Do you think so bonsoir?
I take parenting very seriously and so does my dh. We don't believe good parenting equates with frantic obsessing over whether our dd or ds are 'outperforming' little johnny in end of term test. Neither do we spend hours in a state of high anxiety about what career our children might end up in. Perhaps the fact that we both have interesting careers ourselves helps us to not transfer any unfulfilled ambitions onto them!!

sugarandspiced Fri 04-Jan-13 10:30:27

I'm sure you are right that volunteering/ contribution can take many forms and perhaps some people have mixed motives.

It is perfectly possible to take your children's future seriously and put time and effort into raising them as well as working outside the home.
Chatting about a PE teacher's moustache in a coffee shop after doing the school run is not 'taking your children's future seriously'. It is enjoying some leisure time.

There are both SAHM and WOHM who do and don't raise their children in a responsible and caring way. I can't see any correlation between the two things.

You still misunderstand me, Mayisout. I'm not anti-SAHP, though it's not a choice I'd make. I'm anti people who think that society owes them rather than that they owe society. If you have free time, there is always some way you could be using it to contribute positively, from spending time with the elderly, to joining a conservation group looking after local woodland, to picking up litter, to volunteering at your library. To say people don't have the confidence or don't think they're good enough or that nothing might be available locally are all just excuses, IMO.

Of course we live in a free society and people have choices. But I really genuinely wonder why some people choose to do nothing but indulge themselves. Human nature? I hope not, and that most of us are made of more than that.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:33:21

Personally I see about me two sorts of parents in our economically and socially advantaged environment: complacent ones where both parents work, did fine and think that if they provide their children with similar opportunities they had themselves, they will be fine. And realistic ones, who know the world has moved on, that the competition is really frightening and that their children will need 3x or 4x the skills they had at the same age to go to the same universities and have a similar lifestyle.

Jinsei Fri 04-Jan-13 10:34:19

OP, if you are still around, I think it's great that you're happy with your choice to stay at home and look after your children. It wouldn't be my choice but if it works for you and your family, that's fantastic.

The only thing I would advise is that you plan ahead very carefully to ensure that you have a full and fulfilling life of your own when your children eventually leave home. My own mother suffered with serious depression when I moved out of the family home - a classic case of "empty nest" syndrome. She genuinely didn't see this coming, and the sudden feeling that she no longer had a purpose in life came as a real shock to her. I don't think this is inevitable for mums who stay at home by any means, but it is a significant risk and you need to plan ahead to minimise that risk.

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 10:36:39

'it is perfectly possible to take your children's future seriously and put time and effort into raising them as well as working outside the home'

- hear hear sugarandspiced. That encapsulates it all really.

Jinsei Fri 04-Jan-13 10:37:35

bonsoir, I don't think the working status of a child's parents has any impact on how involved and "ambitious" those parents are on behalf of their kids. Pushy parents can be found equally among SAHMs and WOHMs in my experience! grin

Mosman Fri 04-Jan-13 10:37:37

6 hours go in a flash mumsnetting and you are tied to the school day.

catgirl1976geesealaying Fri 04-Jan-13 10:38:07

Bonsoir, genuine question

If, when they grow up, your DCs decide the most valuable thing they can do with their future is to stay at home working to equip their own children with the skills required to maximise their futures, will you feel that you staying at home trying to maximise thier futures will have been a worthwhile sucess?

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:39:07

Of course, catgirl.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 04-Jan-13 10:39:44

Don't know if you are still around op but i had a mum like you.

She loved feeling useful as she had a condition which meant she couldn't work out of the home. So she would do everything for everyone. My dad and brothers never had to do a thing although my dad could iron occasionally. My three brothers and dad were never allowed to help in the kitchen (i was taught very few basic things like how to peel a potato). Even if the door bell went everyone would look at my mum!

I told her i didn't think it was in their best interests to do everything for them but she didn't listen.

Then she died. My dad can still only do the ironing and literally doesn't know how to clean the house or cook a simple meal. As a result of that he has become ill through a terrible diet. My three brothers are lazy and entitled and think they shouldn't have to do anything for themselves. They don't clean at all, cook or anything. They even smell as their home smells and they don't seem to realise that their clothes get musty. As a result of all this they can't get girlfriends. Who wants a smelly man who can't even heat pasta and lives in a dirty home.

Generally all four of us children were left unequiped to deal with life.

Im not saying this to get at you op. Im a sahm too. The difference is that i see my job as to teach my children how to function as adults, whereas you seem to see it as to make your kids lives as easy as possible. That's lovely in the short term but damaging in the long term.

I would imagine it is as you say a nice feeling to look after everyone, but actually when you are doing any job you need to look at the long term goals not just the short term feelings it gives you. I don't know of any job where you could just go in and choose what to do based on how that thing makes you feel rather than what is best for the company or whatever. You'd probably get sacked!

So this isn't about sahms at all for me. Just about how misguided i think your intentions are.

bickie Fri 04-Jan-13 10:40:24

That's an interesting way of looking at it Bonsoir, my experience as an employer of many 20 something's - who are probably the first lot to come through the 'helicopter parenting' phase. Is the ones who had more hands off - but still caring motivated parents, learnt to self motivate. tTey are the ones who do better in the workplace.

catgirl1976geesealaying Fri 04-Jan-13 10:41:12

Fair enough then smile

But I do honestly believe you can still work and work towards giving them the skills and advantages they need to suceed in life. I don't that working is mutually exclusive with being a focused parent with ambitions for your DCs in anyway.

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 10:44:33

I agree with that as a general rule jinsei. I do think though that often that pushiness and being ambitious on the children's behalf is often a sign of something being misplaced. People should be ambition for themself not on anyone else's behalf. And after all, children learn best by example, not by being told to achieve or do something. Of course, it's absolutely right as a parent to want your children to have their own aspirations and achieve their potential and good parents support their children in this. But that's an entirely different thing from investing your entire energy in putting your own ambitions onto your children which is a really Unattractive trait and likely to backfire long term

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:44:34

I am anything but a helicopter parent, bickie, though I do know plenty of those (they tend to find me very mystifying).

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 10:45:53

No, I don't think I misunderstand you.
I just think you are a bit naive and others don't get the great satisfaction that you get from volunteering and some SAHMs don't like to leave their DCs with paid minders but you won't countenance that, all this MUST be wrong as it is not what you believe.
Also others do not feel they are scrounging from society they are living their life.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 10:47:43

catgirl - whether one or two parents work very much depends on an individual family's circumstances, eg on a single earner's income, on taxation (in the particular tax régime you live), on how much time away from home and flexibility one earner requires, on availability of quality outsourcing for children (childcare and education)...

Jinsei Fri 04-Jan-13 10:50:16

Oh, I agree janey, totally. But I have seen this kind of parenting just as much (if not slightly more!) among parents who are employed outside the home as among those who stay at home.

Personally, I think there is a very fine balance between encouraging, supporting and inspiring your children to be the best that they can be, and pushing them so hard that they lose all intrinsic motivation. I imagine it's a balance that many of us get wrong from time to time.

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 10:50:16

Bickie- i agree with your observation about graduates and young people in early 20s in the workplace

catgirl1976geesealaying Fri 04-Jan-13 10:50:18

It depends on lots of things Bonsoir

But it doesn't mean working parents can't be every bit as focused and committed to their childrens learning and development as non-working parents

Pagwatch Fri 04-Jan-13 10:50:27

The number of parents, both wohm and sahm, who send their children off to university with no life skills it completely shocking.

Rising your child with no independent skills is not a gift to them.

I love my children. I am a sahm. We have cleaners. I could give them all a huge allowance each.
They still learn to clean, cook, and tidy. Ds1 knows how to budget shop and cook and is having to teach his housemates at uni most of whom were struggling and living on take aways, convenience foods and couldn't even cook rice or mash.

I don't volunteer, Mayisout, I work full time. But when I did briefly SAH I helped run the local toddler group. And who said SAHPs should to leave their children with minders? I certainly didn't. I would imagine the reason people SAH is to avoid that very thing. But parents of school-aged children have 6 hours, 5 days a week to themselves. That's 30 hours. Surely people could spend a couple of those hours doing something useful to someone other than themselves of their families?

Perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that lots of people are very selfish to just be 'living their lives' with no concern for anyone else, and that's the root of a lot of what is wrong with society.

bickie Fri 04-Jan-13 10:55:56

Pagwatch - you'll be helping him with his love life too! My niece at Oxford this year said the girls are quickly finding our who the eligible guys are - not down to their looks and charms but their ability to cook, clean and iron!!! Not all girls have the same aspirations as our long gone OP.

Badvoc Fri 04-Jan-13 10:56:57

I am a sahm.
I am also a voluntary worker, am on the b of gov at my sons school and am starting a degree course next month.
I don't see why that suddenly makes it "ok" to be a sahm??
I volunteer because I have skills that are needed by the organisation I help.
I am on the b of gov because I think it's important.
I am re starting my degree because I need to retrain to get back into the workplace and for personal fulfilment.
I am not doing any of it for maybe else or because anyone thinks I should.
If the op is happy then that's great.
Horses for courses etc....l

Llareggub Fri 04-Jan-13 10:59:00

Well, I have read most of the post and thought I would add my experience. I worked until my youngest turned 2 and I resigned from work. Fast forward 2 years and my husband and I are separated due to his alcoholism and he is in a psychiatric hospital.

Luckily I was able to find a well paid job and now that I have moved, I am able to support my children without a financial contribution from my ex husband.

I tell you this because 2 years ago I did not see it coming and I stupidly placed my own financial future in the hands of someone else. I won't ever make that mistake again and I certainly would never advise anyone else to do so unless they had an independent income.

My story so easily could have been so different with severe financial hardship.

HappyMummyOfOne Fri 04-Jan-13 11:00:34

What a depressing thread OP. The daughters will believe they should not aspire to being anything other than a mother and the sons will have enourmous pressure thinking that their sole purpose in life is to work to ensure their wife doesnt have too.

Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, being the only earner is an enourmous burden to put on a person and healthy adults should work. Being a SAHM isnt a job, in terms of employment status you are unemployed for all intents and purpose. If your husband should leave, then who would employ you? Its very likely you would end up on benefits for a long time. Every penny you have spent during your life has been earned by somebody else, do you never have the desire to earn your own money?

We have lots of pushy parents at our school, 90% of the ones that spring to mind work. Its the working parents that always volunteer or help on the pta too.

Mayisout Fri 04-Jan-13 11:01:13

AnnieL.
Well that's probably why we dont' agree - I don't really think there is anything wrong with our society (or at least ours is better than most)
And if you volunteered you would find it often requires v regular commitment so what would happen in the school hols? Oh, and can take weeks of training and a criminal records check. And as I have seen all my elderly rellies shuffle off this mortal coil over the last decade I have NO wish to pop in to visit any lonely elderly and won't have for many a year.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:02:53

"Perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that lots of people are very selfish to just be 'living their lives' with no concern for anyone else, and that's the root of a lot of what is wrong with society."

That has absolutely nothing to do with whether parents work or not. Frankly, the absolutely most selfish parents I ever meet are those that work in entirely commercially/marketing focused jobs whose whole lives revolve around pushing useless consumer goods to people. They rarely pay any attention to anything but making a lot of money and having a good time - their concept of responsibility to others was probably limited to start with (or they wouldn't have chosen the career path they did) and by the time they hit their mid-40s it is severely warped.

Pagwatch Fri 04-Jan-13 11:03:22

I agree with every single thing you say Annie, right up to the point where you tell people who should be volunteering and who doesn't have to because they work full time.
Dh helped out or years at a rugby club on a Saturday morning while working 12 hours a day mon to Friday . My friend does shifts at Samaritans around her work.
Telling sahms that they should be volunteering when you don't is a bit off really.

But I agree with everything else.

Pagwatch Fri 04-Jan-13 11:05:42

Bickie

grin yes I know. Apparently making really good chocolates scores quite high too

FergusSingsTheBlues Fri 04-Jan-13 11:07:43

sAHMs get a shockingly bad time on here. I dont really understand the defensive/ aggressive attitude tbh. I work but probably wont go back after my second child because two parents working high pressure jobs has put a lot of strain on our family. I enjoy looking after my husband and child and want to get involved with local politics, start my own business etc. I am no less valuable to society or my family for that.

All this assumption that the sahm raises indulged children while leaving herself vulnerable financially and of course brain dead and ambiton-free really irritates me. Sahm is what you make it but there should be no shame in wanting to be totally hands on in caring for your family, and that is not a criticism of wohm either.

sugarandspiced Fri 04-Jan-13 11:09:49

It appears that your personal experience, Bonsoir, seems to be that the more 'complacent' parents happen to both work and the more 'realistic' ones have a SAHP- think I've understood your post correctly.

That is certainly not my experience at all, far from it.

There are many different ways of raising happy, functional children. There isn't one perfect recipe.

Mayisout:
'Also others do not feel they are scrounging from society they are living their life.'
I think you have proven AL's point entirely with this sentence.
That is the whole point. These women (generally women) are so insular and concerned only with living THEIR life that they do not see the bigger picture and consider others at all. Of course they do not see themselves as scrounging because they simply do not think!

catgirl1976geesealaying Fri 04-Jan-13 11:09:55

Everyone gets a shockingly bad time grin

SAHMS
WOHMS
People on benefits
People who drive 4x4s
People who FF
People who BF
People who co-sleep
People who don't
People who CC
People who pick them up when they cry
People who wax their pubes
People who let it grow free
People who say "what"
People who say "pardon"

and so on........

janey68 Fri 04-Jan-13 11:09:59

I am reading AnnieL's posts more about being an attitude of mind rather than exactly how many hours voluntary work someone does per week (because as people rightly say, volunteering nowadays is quite a beaurocratic business whereby you need to commit to certain hours, perhaps be CRB checked etc) .

It's about viewing the world as bigger than just your biological offspring, where everyone elses children are some sort of threatening competition.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:11:26

No, I didn't say that, sugarandspiced. Where did you get that from?

Fair enough, pag and may. It probably doesn't come across that way, but I'm not really trying to tell people who should volunteer and who shouldn't. But I genuinely, honestly and truly am baffled by people who aren't actively trying to make the world better for having been alive. And I will concede that many people who work certainly fall into this category too. I just suppose it to be easier for folk who don't work to help out, since they have more free time. I will label myself naive and shush now.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:14:16

Many people are not trying to make the world a better place, Annie. Using WOHM as a shorthand for trying and SAHM as a shorthand for not is very lazy and naïve and not a representation of the world.

And many people who actively try to make the world a better place are not looking for fame, fortune or recognition...

FergusSingsTheBlues "want to get involved with local politics, start my own business etc". Exactly, you have plans and ambitions, so why would anyone think that means you have less to society?

Oh FFS, I have not at any point said WOHPs are trying and SAHPs are lazy. You are putting words in my mouth and that is somewhat lazy and misrepresentative of my argument. Why do you keep harping on about recognition?

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:20:26

Because you seem unable to recognise the contribution that people make to the lives of others unless it has some kind of organisation or label to it.

I am not anti-SAHP. I am anti selfish people who don't care about anything beyond themselves. It doesn't make any difference whether they work or not. But at least people who don't care with jobs are still contributing to the economy, so are being helpful by default.

I will stop now - there's not point arguing with people who are determined to misunderstand me.

sugarandspiced Fri 04-Jan-13 11:22:03

Bonsoir- it was this quote:
'Personally I see about me two sorts of parents in our economically and socially advantaged environment: complacent ones where both parents work, did fine and think that if they provide their children with similar opportunities they had themselves, they will be fine. And realistic ones, who know the world has moved on, that the competition is really frightening and that their children will need 3x or 4x the skills they had at the same age to go to the same universities and have a similar lifestyle.'

Perhaps I interpreted it incorrectly.

I think AL was suggesting that SAHMs usually have more time/ flexibility to contribute, especially once the DC are at school than someone working full time. I think she was referring to the attitude that some have (a minority) that raising a family is enough of a contribution and that once this is done or the DC are fairly independent, they should just amuse themselves.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:23:17

The fact of working and paying taxes does not a contribution to society make per se, AnnieLobeseder. Many dual-working families are net beneficiaries of the tax system and many families with one SAHP and one WOHP are net contributors to the tax system.

"I think AL was suggesting that SAHMs usually have more time/ flexibility to contribute, especially once the DC are at school than someone working full time. I think she was referring to the attitude that some have (a minority) that raising a family is enough of a contribution and that once this is done or the DC are fairly independent, they should just amuse themselves."

^^ this

You appear fixated on outward appearances, Bonsoir. I am talking about attitudes.

Amothersruin Fri 04-Jan-13 11:25:37

"amuse myelf"-yes that is exactly what I plan to dogrin

curryeater Fri 04-Jan-13 11:25:49

ProudMum, please can you let me know what your husband does which supports your whole family on those hours? I wouldn't mind doing that or getting DP to do it. If only one of us works (which I would love) I doubt the other would spend the whole time doing housework. but it's your time, whatever floats your boat. Anyway what is it that your husband does, and it is hard to get into?

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:26:24

I think people are allowed to amuse themselves once all their responsibilities have been fulfilled, yes.

I am much angrier about people who use work as a trump card to avoid any kind of domestic or childcare responsibility than about mothers who spend half an hour having a coffee and chat in the morning before getting on with their often quite lonely days.

Bonsoir Fri 04-Jan-13 11:27:34