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to ask for 2 bits of baby advice as there is more traffic?

(153 Posts)
catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 19:57:10

Thank you thanks

DS is 13 months old

Issue 1: About 6 weeks ago we did CC with great sucess, he got it after 2 nights and was going down without a whimper and sleeping through.

For the last week he has been hysterical when we put him down again and it's been like night one all over again. We go in to re-assure at 5 min, 10 min and 15 min intervals. It's heartbreaking sad

I don't think it's separation anxiety starting to show (but could be wrong) He goes to nursery 2 days a week and is happy there. He spends 1 day a week with my DM and again is fine and happy. He sleeps over at DMs occasionally (and did so in the midst of this upset) and goes down with no issue there

Is there anything I can do? This is horrible.

Issue 2:

He thinks "no" is a game. Is that just normal for his age? My main concern is him playing with the TV which he could pull down and it scares me (wall bracket ordered)

If I say "no" he grins, shakes his head, giggles and does whatever got him the "no" again and again and thinks it's great fun

Any tips for re-inforcing "no" or do I just have to wait for him to get a bit older?

Thanks for any advice.....

SarahWarahWoo Tue 01-Jan-13 20:02:01


skatebauble Tue 01-Jan-13 20:02:20

Cant help with one as never tried cc with any of mine. Probably the reason dc3 has yet to do a full night sleep at 2.9...

B) definately an age thing. Just confident with mobility and realising he can do lots of things.
Continue saying no, remove him from the tv area, distract him. It can be exhausting.

SirBoobAlot Tue 01-Jan-13 20:02:34

He's crying because he is frightened. He has learnt that you are not going to comfort him in the way he needs. And considering this age is always terrible for separation anxiety, all you are doing is reinforcing his fears.

There is also so much evidence to show that both CIO and CC are not only harmless, but offer no long term sleep improvement.

What can you do? Pick him up. Children who are secure and confident they will be responded to learn to settle better.

''Issue 2'' is completely normal. Save ''no'' for the occasions you absolutely have to, like the TV, so that it doesn't become a casual word for him.

MargeySimpson Tue 01-Jan-13 20:04:17

My DS is 18months and is the worst sleeper ever despite co-sleeping/contorlledcrying/nocrysleepsloution/ginaford etc etc so no advice there.

In terms of 'NO'. We try not to use that word unless it's serious. Eg. if he's lifting the toilet seat up when i'm running a bath, then I say, "dirty". Or if he's banging the mirror in a hallway I say "dangerous" so if he's about to put his finger in a plug socket or run in the road, when i say 'NO' I mean it. You could spend all day saying no to them otherwise. Explain why. It helps!

Oreocrumbs Tue 01-Jan-13 20:04:34

Not sure about one, I didn't cc.

Think two is just normal for his age! DD was is like that!

You can get straps that you attach to the back of the tv and to the wall so the tv can't fall on them, if that would be any help. Think you can get them in mothercare etc.

sittinginthesun Tue 01-Jan-13 20:07:57

I think no. 2 is easiest to deal with. He's after attention, so do give him any. Say "no, you must not pull the television", then turn it off, pick him up, move him away, and pretend to ignore him. If you're doing something more interesting, and appear engrossed in it, then he'll potter over to join in.

As for no.1, I think he needs attention, at least for now. Why not try a new bedtime routine, and break the habit that way? Not personally a fan of CC, although I did let mine whinge a bit, but not cry.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:08:46

Thank you

DH is convinced the controlled crying is the way forward (we both got exhausted and I ended up with pneumonia) and it did seem to be going really well with no issues, but I don't think I can take another night of him crying for 40 minutes (not that we leave him for 40 minutes, I don't even get to the 15, more like 8 tops).

On the other hand I don't think I can go back to him taking an hour to get down for each nap and night sleep and him waking every 2 hours either sad

Good to know at least issue 2 is just normal and not something I am doing wrong

He's just fallen asleep now. Took 28 minutes of horrible tears and 5 visits to re-assure him sad

twinklesparkles Tue 01-Jan-13 20:09:15

I've used cc for my ds (now 5) it was the worse thing EVER! But it worked! It worked and we were both much better of for it. Its the hardest thing I've never felt so cruel. But once he accepted it, it was the best thing. Both of us got the sleep we needed and it confirmed to him the bond that I would still be there in the morning when he woke up.
I did it a lot earlier than 13 months though (6 month)

I think the no thing is just an age thing. Its just a stage he's going to have to get through, my sons still pushing my buttons when it comes to the word no .. And he's 5 lol!!

You sound like you are doing a great job smile

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:10:27

I'll start saying "dangerous" as well as "no" sitting - sounds like a good idea to give him some context and I've ordered the wall strap thingies oreo

oldpeculiar Tue 01-Jan-13 20:10:57

he's developing a mind of his own and beginning to assert himself!

Does the tone of his crying sound like serious distress or annoyance?

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:12:19

Thank you twinkles that's really nice to hear

This parenting thing is hard! I have zero friends or family with babies so MN is a lifeline! (Although DM is great but it's nice to get a wider view)

SirBoobAlot Tue 01-Jan-13 20:12:30

You left him to cry for 28 minutes at thirteen months old? Fucking hell. He's crying because he needs you!! I know what its like to feel so tired your bones ache, I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. But your little baby needs you.

The separation anxiety and night times will just get worse the more you send him the message that you are not there for him.

Leaving this thread now, comments like that make me feel sick, frankly.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:13:28

It's an angry cry I think oldpeculiar

DH takes the view that it is anger rather than anything else and he has got to learn he can't always get his own way and he knows we are there due to the 5min checks etc

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 20:14:15

DD is 20 months and for the last couple has been an angel going to bed for DH, her grandparents and auntie, but screams blue murder if I dare put her into the cot. I'm hoping it is a phase...

I work full time and tortured myself this was the reason (illogical I know) but she is just as bad when she spends all day with me at weekends and over the holidays!

Sorry, no help at all but wanted to add to te reassurance that you're not alone!

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:14:52

No Sirboob

As I said, we go in at 5 - 10 minute intervals to re-assure him

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:16:08

I do that too coco

I think,,,,,oh it's because I leave him in the day or now "oh it's because he's got used to me being there all the time at Christmas"

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 20:16:47

Parent of the year award to SirBoob who hasn't actually read the thread properly

Ignore that OP!

MushroomSoup Tue 01-Jan-13 20:18:49

I did CC. It worked for me.

Chottie Tue 01-Jan-13 20:18:49

I couldn't do CC so no help there, if my baby cried I picked him up. I am finding this post very difficult to read.......

trudolphtherednosedreindeer Tue 01-Jan-13 20:21:23

No help with 1 I'm afraid. I have criers sad.

No.2 <schoolboy giggle> I always used distraction with ds. I would say no, that's dangerous, and remove him 3 times. If he persisted I would try to distract him (often by pretending I had something in my hand then tickling him). It usually worked. Dd isn't so compliant though, and much more bold so interested to hear others ideas too.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:22:48

Did your DC have any sort of "relapse" Mushroom?

zzzzz Tue 01-Jan-13 20:24:22

Hungry? Cold?
Not tired enough?
Something scratchy/noisey?

I didn't do CC with mine, but if you cover the above, you'll get some joy eventually.

The " no" will only mean "no" if you provide a consequence. So if you say " no" about touching the tv and he does it anyway you must remove him. If he does what you want you tell him how good he is.

FestiveFiggy Tue 01-Jan-13 20:25:14

Jog on with your simpering sirboob not constructive!!!

NumTum7 Tue 01-Jan-13 20:25:54

We did CC a few months with DD (now 14 months) All went fine but every now and then we get a few nights where she doesn't want to settle - usually followed by a new tooth! Could there maybe be some other issue like that?

As for number 2, can't help you there - DD also thinks it's hilarious! Just keep reinforcing it, be consistent, and hopefully he will get the message eventually!

Nancy66 Tue 01-Jan-13 20:27:02

The 'no' thing doesn't matter - he'll grow out of it.

On the other matter - i think he's not sleeping because he is confused an unsettled. 2 days at nursery, the occasional overnight at grandmas and then being left to cry, uncomforted when he is at home....please don't do it. I think it's cruel and unnecessary.

corkgirlindublin Tue 01-Jan-13 20:29:38

I have never done cc so no help.

However I think with the No thing you need to back it up with a physical movement. So i would go over and gently move your son away from the tv and repeat no so he learns what you mean by it.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:29:48

zzzzz and numtum

It could be a new tooth.....

He's not hungry, we check his nappy when we go in to re-assure and his room is 23 degrees so I don't think he's cold

Maybe a later bedtime might help but he's pulling his ears and doing his other "tired signals" before we put him down

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:30:55


I do back up the "no" by moving him away from the area

He thinks it's hillarious..........that one sounds like I'm far from alone and he'll grow out of it

KindnessofStrangers Tue 01-Jan-13 20:31:11

Chottie, Sirboob and Nancy66 I think your reactions to the OP are unfair, as parents we all make choices and do the best we can do. I am sure there are things you do with your DC that the OP would not agree with. Sleep deprivation is difficult, the OP is just trying to do the best for HER family.

OP the no thing is perfectly normal my DD has sort of grown out of it at 17 months. It's just them stamping their independence.

Perhaps get this moved to 'sleep?' I found lots of helpful answers there when DD was waking every two hours!

Nancy66 Tue 01-Jan-13 20:33:16

kindness - the OP said herself that she posted in this section to garner more opinions. We can't all have the same one.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:33:24

Thanks kindness

I'll ask MN to move it as I might get some more constructive advice on there

(Really appreciate the advice that has been given on here....less so the comments about being cruel. I'm at my wits end as it is so those comments are not really helpful......)

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:34:44

I did think I might open myself up to some CC is evil comments posting on here to be fair and I wanted the extra traffic so I guess I can't really complain, but I don't want to start a bunfight, so maybe I should get it moved

Have you tried giving him a comforter? DS uses a muslin/cloth bunny thingy and it made a massive difference. We use it for daytime naps too and it's literally changed our lives.

nickelbabylyinginamanger Tue 01-Jan-13 20:38:01

iit's likely to be dollars.

I'm with sirboob on this. i think cc is pretty cruel.

another miner advised saying "stop!" instead of no when they're doing something they shouldn't be. it seems to work.
rather that laugh, dd (12m) stops and looks at me for further confirmation.
you have to have a serious face and if he does it again be firm, say stop again and remove him
they're testing their boundaries and need reinforcement.

Zimbah Tue 01-Jan-13 20:38:16

Controlled crying is one of the harsher methods of sleep training, there are quite a few others that are a lot kinder to the baby, have you tried them? Leaving a baby screaming for five minutes, then ten, then fifteen is really horrible, even five minutes of crying alone seems like forever for young children, they don't have the same concept of time.

The baby whisperer has some good methods if you want to go down that route, either "gradual withdrawal" or "walk in/walk out". I'm not a fan of her techniques on very young babies but for older ones they seem to be pretty good.

PS if your DH thinks your baby needs to learn he can't get his own way by leaving him to cry then I think he needs to read a bit about baby development.

NumTum7 Tue 01-Jan-13 20:38:29

People will always have different opinions and are free to voice them, but you are also free to ignore them grin hope things settle down for you in a couple days OP

nickelbabylyinginamanger Tue 01-Jan-13 20:38:41

Molars !

KindnessofStrangers Tue 01-Jan-13 20:39:34

Nancy I agree, tbf my post was less aimed at you. Totally agree that there are lots of different views on sleep/sleep training and every child will have different responses/needs. But posts saying the OP makes them feel sick and that they can't read it, are unfair and are just going to make a Mother trying to do her best feel shit.

Primafacie Tue 01-Jan-13 20:39:53

Sirboob, have my first ever biscuit

nickelbabylyinginamanger Tue 01-Jan-13 20:40:14

23degrees is far too warm.
his room needs to be 16-20

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:41:25

He does have a comforter

I like the "stop" idea
I;m not posting an running but I'm off line for a bit

Thank you all for the advice

KindnessofStrangers Tue 01-Jan-13 20:42:15

OP there is a good thread in 'sleep' titled 'What worked for us' ( Or something along those lines!) that gives a structure for a gradual retreat method that I tried with DD around 12 months, if you did want to try something different.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:42:25

I know Nickel - it's a really warm house....that's with no heating on since early this morning

It cools to about 20 by 10 pm

nickelbabylyinginamanger Tue 01-Jan-13 20:45:14

it might help a bit to have the windoe open then for a bit before he goes to bed?
cool it down a bit. and a room thermometer.

what's his wind down routine?
we co-sleep with dd, but wr change her into her jimmies and turn down volumes at half 8/9o'clock and let her dose a bit before we go up.
maybe read a story or okay a soft record?

chandellina Tue 01-Jan-13 20:46:31

On sleep, I'd just try to prepare him well for sleep with the exact same rituals, songs, etc. before bed. You want him relaxed and ready to sleep. If he is crying immediately, he is clearly distressed at the transition from day to night and needs more prepping.

I am blessed though with an amazingly good sleeper of the same age, she goes down without a peep for 13 hours. My son was more of a challenge at that age but ultimately the child needs sleep and at some stage has to be able to settle themselves and not expect a parent to keep turning up. (yeah flame me but I have two fantastic sleepers. )

My daughter has the opposite reaction to no and usually cries. I think it's all about the tone of voice, so your ds understands it's for real and not a game.

zzzzz Tue 01-Jan-13 20:49:06

Hell sleep better, if you can drop the temperature a bit.

slhilly Tue 01-Jan-13 20:49:41

You might try the kissing game technique rather than controlled crying. CC has the problem that the child really can be unsure you're ever going to come back. The kissing game avoids that. You basically put the baby down, potter around for a few seconds in the bedroom, go over and pat or kiss the baby, potter off again for a few seconds, go over and pat again, and then do the same but go out of the room, and then start stretching the time out of the room to be 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 secs, 1 min, etc etc.

The baby knows you'll keep on coming back in, but also knows you're not going to pick them up. So if they cry it's because they're cross you won't pick them up, not frightened. Eventually they fall asleep. After a few days of this very exhausting procedure, you can start dramatically abbreviating, and they start to properly go to sleep by themselves, secure in the knowledge you're around, but also convinced that nothing they do will persuade you to pick them up or get them to sleep.

This technique was developed by a health professional, and I wish I had the research paper to hand to reference properly. It worked very well for us.

Here's a link to a description of the technique.

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 20:51:34

OP, I hope you have donned your hard hat, cc threads don't tend to end well.
I did Cc with DD, it worked brilliantly. The first few nights, I did what you do, and went back every 10 min. To be honest it just seemed to anger her even more, so around the 3rd night we decided to go back once to check she wasn't hot/cold/needing a change, etc. Then we left her, she cried for about 40 min then went to sleep.

The next night she cried for 5 min, and every night now she just goes straight to sleep.

That was 9 months ago and although it was very tough at the time, we haven't looked back.

The crucial thing for us was that we knew already that DD was quick to adapt, and we had a feeling that sticking with Cc would pay off quickly.

We also felt that we had to give it a serious go, as I was about to go back to work after ML; both DH and me operate vehicles at work, and being sleep deprived could be fatal. So it HAD to work, and it did.

It was horrible listening to her cry though, DH and me were in the next room, in tears, holding hands.

Good luck OP, you will get there eventually, just stick with it smile

TeWisBeenNargledByTheMistletoe Tue 01-Jan-13 20:53:49

What's his bedtime routine like?

It's not pick them up vs cc (thankfully, though no one ever believes me when I explain that my DD became hysterical if we attempted any kind of rapid return)

I found the 'no cry sleep solution' book quite helpful, for eg it recommends a very regular bedtime routine at least 1hr long. Also ideas like talking through everything with your dc - your baby doesn't sleep much, but will understand you pretty well. "right DS, let's start getting ready for bed, first it's bathtime, then your cream, then PJs, then teeth... (etc) ...then bedtime" then "we've finished putting your cream on DS, now it's time for PJs.... ...then bed"

Also introducing a comforter of some kind might work around now.

If it is teeth, I think you will just have to accept that it will take longer to get him to bed and be kind to him.

bobby1989 Tue 01-Jan-13 20:55:18

As awful as it sounds I just left my son to cry himself to sleep. After messing around for 3 years with my first son trying to get him to sleep I decided to be more firm. My second slept through from 6 week to 16 months then started been a nightmare. Now I get him ready for Ned snuggle him while he has a bottle then put him in his cot. More often than not within 5 mins he's asleep some times goes on for 20. He's totally unaffected in the morning and as happy as normal.
And yes he''ll just think NO is a game try doing a loud clap to shock him while u say no he might cry but at least he''ll know. I must sound awful but I have 2 very happy little boys I promise lol

TeWisBeenNargledByTheMistletoe Tue 01-Jan-13 20:57:16

Bloody typos, I meant your baby doesn't say much but can understand you.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 20:59:06

Thanks 50

I will open his window a bit

His bedtime routine is bath, cuddle, story, bottle and cuddle

One thing this has made me think is that I do the cuddle, bottle and story downstairs whereas if I did it in his room maybe he would be a bit more prepared for the transistion to sleep

chandellina Tue 01-Jan-13 21:03:02

I sometimes start the bedtime routine downstairs but always finish the bottle upstairs with the lights out. I sing the same song every night and for naps (when I'm there) and she immediately knows it's sleep time. Sometimes she'd start whimpering as I carried her up the stairs, singing the song, but it meant she always knows it's time to get ready to sleep.

SmileyPenguin Tue 01-Jan-13 21:05:23

Yabu. He's crying because he needs you and your comfort, he's a baby, you're all he has sad do you have a friend or relative or someone else who would be able to comfort him in the night if you don't want to?

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 21:06:13

We do bath, then bottle and cuddle in DD's room too.

We keep the light off in her room during bedtime, and we just keep the hallway light on so we can navigate safely smile

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 21:07:26

I agree with sirboob.

I also don't see how you can describe cc as a success when it clearly hasn't 'worked'.

Agree with PP that gradual retreat may be worth a try. Took 3 nights to get my cwtch-to-sleep co-sleeper to happily self settle in his own room.

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 21:07:33

smiley you are being awful, and really not helpful

nickelbabylyinginamanger Tue 01-Jan-13 21:10:20

yes, it probably will help to do the routine upstairs smile

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 21:10:37

She isn't being 'awful', she's stating fact and showing awareness if the principles of attachment.

Babies cry because they need something.

HardHittingLeafletCampaign Tue 01-Jan-13 21:12:01

I'm with Sirboob too. But I do understand how soul destroying lack of sleep is.

MsElleTow Tue 01-Jan-13 21:16:55

I did CC with my 2 who are 18 &16 now. It worked a treat at the time, and they have suffered no lasting effects. They never cried when they started school, they were happy to go on trips etc. They have always been confident and safe in the knowledge that if DH or I have had to go away, we will always come back for them.

He might be feeling a bit under the weather Catgirl. Hopefully he will be back to sleeping through soon.

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 21:21:21

Catgirl, may just be the disruption of Christmas etc.? All very tiring/exciting etc.

The comment suggesting the OP doesn't want to comfort her child so could ask a friend or relative is, in my opinion, spiteful and wholly uncalled for from what has been said. 'For parents, by parents', unless you dare to post in AIBU.

Kalisi Tue 01-Jan-13 21:21:48

Can't help on 1 I'm afraid as I didn't consider CC. There are many options for you though OP, hopefully you will find a technique that suits your family, you need to do what feels right and don't worry about losing the 'game' by trying lots of different things.
I found 2. Was quite easy to solve with blind consistency and repetitiveness. You feel ridiculous saying 'No' over and over whilst your little darling giggles at you but as long as in the end they DONT get to play with the plug socket the message does sink in. I also find that being physical helps greatly. If they are touching something they shouldn't, don't just bark orders across the room, MOVE their hand. Pick them up and move them away. Get down to their level and say No .....over and over hmm Clapping is also quite effective

theowlworrier Tue 01-Jan-13 21:21:55

Catgirl, dd just cries when she is tired. Starting from 2 months she wpuld just scream... nearly ended up in a&e the first time, scared the crap out of us! After 3 months of her screaming at bedtime, we tried CC. Our thinking was that she was screaming whatever- whether we were holding her, feeding her, it made no difference. Cc worked- she slept through but we still have the odd night where she will scream a bit when she goes down. It seems it is just how she lets us know shr is tired. Perhaps that is what your ds is doing. Not great, and the only thing we have found helps is identifting the window where she is most tired and being pretty rigid about her going down then. Most nights we get nothing, some nights a few minutes. If she starts crying before she goes in her cot, it seems to be the quickest way to resolve is to just kiss her and put her down. I think it is over stimulation at that point.

ellee Tue 01-Jan-13 21:23:21

Tbh sounds like the cc is going ok. You have to be very persistent with children really. while we didn't cc we would always have made a huge ewffort to keep a child in their room at least once bedtime had come. So lots of popping in and out, offering comfort and then saying it's bedtime, how comfy their bed was etc etc. Ds might only have needed a head in the door, but dd occssionally still wants a bit of handholding and chat (21m).

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 21:24:06

welsh I agree that babies cry because they need something. But at 13 months they have also learnt that crying gets you attention.

It is mostly a good thing, because parents need to know when their baby is hungry, in pain, etc.

However, 13 months is old enough for a baby to learn that they can fall asleep alone in their cot, and that their parents don't have to be in the room at all times to keep them safe.

A baby soon understands that their parents do always come back...

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 21:25:34

Is a need for attention not a valid need, then?

ellee Tue 01-Jan-13 21:28:38

Not always, no!

HDee Tue 01-Jan-13 21:29:57

I'd leave him to cry, and in fact go one step further and not be going in every 5, 10, 15 minutes. I'd put him to bed and leave him til morning. Unless he is poorly, it will do you both the world of good for him to learn that bed = sleep.

With regards to 'no', I would just use distraction. If you see him making a bee-line for something he shouldn't, grab a toy, or start singing and clapping.

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 21:31:16

As I said, it is mostly a good thing. Just not always.

It is not possible, or healthy, for anyone to get people's attention 100% of the time.

Learning to go to sleep on your own is also I think, an essential life skill and a step towards independence.

bobby1989 Tue 01-Jan-13 21:35:26

It doesnt mean they need anything if they've been changed and fed before bed then they are fine. Babies love attention they get it all day there used to it. There not happy that there in a cot alone. If you keep going to them when they cry they won't stop. If they know that you'll go in every 5 minutes they just keep screaming. Its hard to listen to your baby cry but it's even harder to function the next day after been up all night....leave them to scream after 2 or 3 nights they'll realise that it's easier to just lay down and sleep

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 21:38:55

Attention is not a slid need if it is actually preventing them getting the sleep they need, in other words they are straining to stay awake to enjoy the attention as opposed to grumbling a little then eealisinh that they're not missing out if they go to sleep.

BertieBotts Tue 01-Jan-13 21:39:15

Not going to get into the sleep thing, but re No/stop, you have to show them what the word means. They don't instinctually know - it probably is a fun game to him "Ooh look, when I do this, Mummy makes a funny sound. I wonder if I can get her to do it again?"

Instead of just saying no, every time you say no/stop/leave that alone etc, you need to remove or distract him or remove the item. You need to do this for a good long while before he gets the idea that "no" means "stop doing that".

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 21:39:26

slid = valid

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 21:39:26

Thank you for all the advice

Im going to do his wind down upstairs and keep his room a little cooler and see how things go

Thank you

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 21:39:34

How lovely, bobby. sad

What actually happens is that they give up crying for their parents because they realise nobody will come. I fail to see how that can be viewed positively.

timidviper Tue 01-Jan-13 21:40:11

My DS is now 24 but, as a baby, was an absolute monster when it came to sleeping. We did CC under the supervision of a "sleep clinic" the health visitor referred him to and it worked brilliantly. We did have the odd blip but persevered and each time the "relapse" settled quicker. Ignore those posters who think they are entitled to make you feel bad.

As to your second question I am afraid I am no use at all as the advice, back then, was a tap on the back of the hand which is not approved of now at all.

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 21:42:15

Welsh - therein lies the difference between cc and crying it out. OP is returning.

TeWisBeenNargledByTheMistletoe Tue 01-Jan-13 21:42:36

If that was true Welsh cc babies would never cry ever. Which is not the case, and you know it isn't.

OpheliasWeepingWillow Tue 01-Jan-13 21:43:41

I did cc but at 60 second intervals then 120 second intervals with stroking and patting when I went in. After 8 minutes it would be Hysterics! Don't know how you cope with that TBH. 60 and 120 worked after a week.

No 2 no idea aside from be consistent and don't engage

Zimbah Tue 01-Jan-13 21:45:24

To a baby there's not a huge difference between "5 minutes" and "never". They do not understand time in that way. TBH I see very little difference between CC and cry it out, essentially the baby cries on its own without being comforted, and learns that at night no-one will come when it cries so just gives up. This can indeed result in good sleepers, if that's your main aim in parenting then wonderful. There are other much much kinder ways of sleep training, it really is not necessary at all.

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 21:45:42

It's the case for all these babies that cc allegedly 'works' for.

CoteDAzur Tue 01-Jan-13 21:47:11

"so much evidence to show that both CIO and CC are not only harmless, but offer no long term sleep improvement"

That is complete rubbish.

Both of my DC slept through after a few nights of CC, and have always slept through since then, except the occasional teething or illness. Everyone I know who have done CC has had the same result.

And there is no proof that CC is harmful, especially in the long term.

If you have babies who cried only when they had a problem, I'm happy for you. DD cried through every day and every night for four months. Then we did CC, she slept through on the third night, and also became a much happier baby around this time.

Correlation isn't causation, and I'm not claiming she stopped crying 24/7 because she slept through, but I can safely say that it hasn't made her more agitated or unhappy.

And she has slept through ever since. That is 7 years. How is that for "long term sleep improvement"?

CoteDAzur Tue 01-Jan-13 21:50:11

"To a baby there's not a huge difference between "5 minutes" and "never". They do not understand time in that way. TBH I see very little difference between CC and cry it out, essentially the baby cries on its own without being comforted, and learns that at night no-one will come when it cries so just gives up."

How on earth can you possibly know something like that? hmm

How can you possibly be so sure that what the baby learns isn't something like "My parents are really slow to come to me when lights go out, but I know they love me because they are all over me in the daytime, so maybe I'll just go to sleep"?

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 21:51:39

welsh please tell me you are not about to wheel out this study carried out in Romanian orphanages?

cocoachannel Tue 01-Jan-13 21:52:16

We are talking about a 13 month old not a 13 week old.

bobby1989 Tue 01-Jan-13 21:52:22

No-one can actually prove why they stop thank you for your comment!!! All I know from personal experience is running in and out of their room all night leaves you both tired and fed up and after 3 years of doing that with my first a change in tatic with the second was needed. When he gets up in the morning he shouts mummy gives me the biggest smile and cuddle and we start the day both happy and wide awake.

bobby1989 Tue 01-Jan-13 21:53:58

I'd also like to clarify that if he was screaming for more than 20 mins I'd go check there wasnt a problem. But he never goes longer than 15-20 mins and that's only happened 2 or 3 times

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 21:54:08

Well, god forbid parenting require effort and sacrifice from you. What a farking liberty that would be.

bobby1989 Tue 01-Jan-13 21:59:46

Everyone does things differently that's what where all talking about on here it's good to see how other people do things and be able to try different things as some1 who has done it both ways just explaining what works for me and my need for personal attack we can't all be mother earth as u clearly think you are

chandellina Tue 01-Jan-13 22:04:49

Babies need sleep, and they need to be able to soothe themselves. I consider it my job as a parent to teach my children how to do this. There are a lot of things children aren't going to like and will let you know by crying, parents are in charge and must use their judgement.

wigglesrock Tue 01-Jan-13 22:04:53

If it helps I always used "aaah aaaah" with my dds, all 3 of them think No is an invitation grin I also use it with my niece who I mind a lot and I think it works.

Dd2 was the incredible non sleeping baby so I can't help with sleep at all grin.

50ShadesOfGreggs Tue 01-Jan-13 22:06:48

Right, ladies, I am leaving this bunfight healthy debate as I am off to bed.

OP, good luck! Whatever you choose there will be someone out there trying to make you feel bad about it. Stick to what YOU feel is best and you'll be fine.

BigBabyBoots Tue 01-Jan-13 22:07:43

Not sure if it's been suggested already, but you said he's giving all his tired cues already when you put him down, could he be over tired and crying in frustration? DS does this sometimes. He also started needing to go to bed earlier around this age. Had always been 19:30, then suddenly changed to 18:00. Can you bring the routine forward and see if that helps?

Ds3 is 21 months and allthough he usually settles well at night there are still the odd occasions when he wakes up and I have to sit in his room for a while and gradually retreat.

If cc worked in the begining maybe something else is going on such as teething, starting to come down with something. We find ds can be like this for a few days before he comes down with a bug, or if the room is too hot.

I haven't tried cc with ds3 but did with 1&2. They are 18 and 10 now and it doesn't seem to have damaged them, although they were abit older when I did it.

pointedlynoresolutions Tue 01-Jan-13 22:19:15

I'd second earlier bedtime, actually. By the time a baby is giving 'tired' cues you're already risking 'overtired'. My DDs at that age were going to bed at 18.30, having dropped back from 19.30. That and a cooler bedroom might make all the difference.

I prefer gentler sleep training methods, btw - I did pickup/put down with DD2 when I was weaning her off night feeds, took 3 nights and she slept through. However, that method does not allow for you to leave the room when baby is crying, the whole point is not to let them get to the upset stage. The first night I think I picked her up about 40 times and thought 'this will never work'.

The second night it was 5 or 6 times, the third night she slept through. No tears, no distress from anyone, just a bit of investment of time on my part.

chickenyummychicken Tue 01-Jan-13 22:19:34

another advocate of cc
4 dc
used it with 2
horrible for me i hated myself at the time
It worked though! stick to it and a few days - bingo - they settled themselves. (i was sitting outside the door on pins though!)
happier mummy happier dc
just my opinion

And what big says, maybe he is over tired

Zimbah Tue 01-Jan-13 22:36:01

What I don't understand is why most people who do CC say how much they hated it, but that it was worth it because then their DC slept. They don't seem to realise/care that there are other methods that can also result in DC sleeping well that wouldn't necessitate all the crying. Why on earth do something that people often describe leaving themselves, the parent, in tears, when there may be another option that still works but is emotionally less wrenching??

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 22:36:45

I hadn't considered the over tired possibilty

That's worth thinking about

I really probably should move him to one nap as well as he is still on two

midori1999 Tue 01-Jan-13 22:37:02

OP, you might find this link regarding what is normal infant sleep development and also has some info on sleep training both reassuring that your baby is displaying normal sleep behaviour and informative re sleep training.

All babies will learn to sleep 'all night' (no one actually sleeps all night without waking up at all) and by themselves in their own time. No one needs to train them to or teach them anything.

CoteDAzur Tue 01-Jan-13 22:38:42

If you don't understand, ask.

Then you can learn that some of us have actually tried those methods and they have not worked.

Do you think loving parents come to making their babies cry on purpose because they feel like it?

chandellina Tue 01-Jan-13 22:39:00

Most people try different methods, probably cc is not the first port of call for many.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 22:41:28

I tried gradual retreat Zimabah

And pick up / put down

And a few other things besides.

I also read dozens of books and articles on different sleep training methods and searched for evidence of CC being harmful

Thing is with "all the crying" is that DS cried just as much through gradual retreat, pick up / put down and all the others

Only difference with the CC is that

a) I felt shitty because I wasn't doing anything (even though what I was doing on the other techniques only soothed me, not DS,

and b) he actually went to sleep and slept through.

chickenyummychicken Tue 01-Jan-13 22:43:56

absolutely not first port of call
at the end of my tether
but after weeks and weeks of other options - it worked FOR ME
each to their own

CoteDAzur Tue 01-Jan-13 22:44:16

"All babies will learn to sleep 'all night' and by themselves in their own time."

That would be why sleep threads are full of delirious parents tearing their hair out about how their 2-3 year olds are still not sleeping through the night.

I cannot explain with words just how happy I am that is not our DC.

Some of us have preferred to actively encourage our DC to sleep through the night. Speaking for DH & me, I have to say that it is the best decision we have ever made re DC. They both sleep through, every night. Nobody is sleep deprived, everyone starts the day happy and refreshed.

chickenyummychicken Tue 01-Jan-13 22:46:29

amen cote

3smellysocks Tue 01-Jan-13 22:46:57

Try 'stop' instead of 'no'. It will be awful if he starts to use the word tons too.

Try distraction also and lots of fun. Make him keen to please you and stay on your right side.

Rather then leaving him, can you sit next to him and hold his hand?

LadyKinbote Tue 01-Jan-13 22:52:52

I think it depends on the quality of the cry. A tired, whimpering cry could mean he just wants to be left alone to settle himself to sleep, but a sharp frightened cry is more likely to mean he's teething or something. I know that CC would have been torture to DS while teething but doing it when he was well came as a blessed relief to him, let alone us!

Yes im sure at some point they all learn to sleep on their own, you may have to wait untill they are bloody 5 or 6 before they learn to self sooth and sleep though.

slatternlymother Tue 01-Jan-13 22:54:55

What time are you putting him down? He could be overtired. DS (2.3) is in bed for 6pm every night; he cannot stay up later without having a meltdown like you described.

Also, some children need a period of fussing before they sleep. DS used to do it sometimes; he now sings songs or chats to his toys grin

Oh, and the 'no' thing is normal. Infuriating, I know. I find a sharp 'ah!' In a low tone (ever noticed they take Daddy's telling's off more seriously?) followed by 'Don't do that DS, because you could get hurt' and remove him from the area without eye contact. I always try to give a brief explanation of why they can't do something. I think they understand more than we know, and it seems fairer.

Rhubarbgarden Tue 01-Jan-13 22:55:05

Well said, Cote.

slatternlymother Tue 01-Jan-13 22:56:28

And I don't think the OP is asking for alternatives to CC.

<checks OP>

Nope. She's not.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 22:57:44

He goes down between 7:30 and 8

I think I do need to move him to 1 nap and an earlier bedtime as well as doing his wind down upstairs and getting his room a bit cooler

slattern he does take more notice of DH...........hadn't thought about the pitch either. I will explain more too in terms of why he can't touch the TV etc

slatternlymother Tue 01-Jan-13 23:00:55

When does he usually get up in the morning and nap during the day?

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 23:02:18

He wakes about 6 am

Has a 1 - 2 hour nap from about 9:30 (varies but ususally about 1.5 hours)

and then has a 45 min to 1 hour nap at about 15:30

PurpleCrazyHorse Tue 01-Jan-13 23:02:35

We didn't use CC but I did use pick-up/put-down, shush-pat and also gradual withdrawl. Therefore can't offer you any advice on CC but you might find something that works for all of you that is still moving in the right direction. We found shush-pat good as it did mean that DD fell back to sleep lying down in her cot and I made the shush-pat shorter and shorter. Finally just shushing through the door. I felt better comforting DD but not doing a picking her up and rocking her back to sleep in my arms approach which wasn't really helping her learn.

The no thing is par for the course. At that age, I'd remove the object or child. Everything in the world is new and exciting, and of course they want to explore it and they also love attention! Distraction with something else is definitely your friend.

slatternlymother Tue 01-Jan-13 23:05:14

Can he have and hour and a half at lunchtime and start his bedtime routine (bath etc) at 6:30 to be in bed for 7?

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 01-Jan-13 23:09:50

I could try that slatternly although I don't get home with him till 6 on the 3 days he's at nursery or DMs so could be a little rushed

If he's really tired on these days though I sometimes drop his bath to get him to bed a little earlier although I try to keep the routine as a rule

I have to go to bed myself now as he will be raring to go at 6am smile

Thank you for all the advice

midori1999 Tue 01-Jan-13 23:24:27

Vote, funny that. All my older three sleep through all night every night too and have done from a young age. DD, the youngest, who is 18 months sleeps through most nights too, sometimes wakes up during teething etc and admittedly is not always the easiest to get to sleep, but she's different to the others and she's gone from never being put down at all to sleeping in her own cot most nights. (not when teething/ill) no sleep training involved and so far no 2 or 3 year olds awake all night.

I understand what it's like to be tired, I posted the link for information for the OP, who has said she gets distressed with the crying.

midori1999 Tue 01-Jan-13 23:25:05

Cote even.... See, sleep deprived..... Although due to jet lag...

WelshMaenad Tue 01-Jan-13 23:53:33

Mine too, midori. Odd!

HopAndSkip Wed 02-Jan-13 01:00:23

I co sleep so no personal advice, but my sister got her ds to start settling by doing his routine, then sitting in the chair in his room with only the night light on until he stopped crying, but not responding to him. Personally i couldn't do any type of cc, i'm way too soft! But maybe thats worth a try if you're still struggling with being too tired to keep going in.

bellabelly Wed 02-Jan-13 01:14:51

Number 1 - I had some great advice from a mate (ex-childminder) when I mentioned that my DTs had recently started crying and crying each night when put down in their cots - we'd recently been on holiday and the crying had started then, they'd previously been v happy at bedtime. The advice really worked for me, straight away, might be worth a try?

All you do is do your normal bedtime routine then put them down in cot, say goodnight/kiss then turn off light as normal. But instead of leaving straight away, stay in room for one minute. Don't "engage" with dc - don't make eye contact or speak but just be there as a reassuring presence. After one minute, leave. Stand outside door for one full minute. If your dc is crying, go back in and repeat as necessary. Still no talking/ssshhhing, no picking up/physical soothing but just being there in the room for a minute. Then leave. Repeat until crying has stopped.

I can't tell you how skeptical I was about this approach but it really worked for us. The first night, I had to go back in twice, the second night, not at all. For some reason, my DTs got into the habit of properly screaming in their cots while we were on hols and carried on when we got home. I was at my wits' end with it, to be honest and I'd have tried just about anything! Hope things improve for you soon. x

chandellina Wed 02-Jan-13 07:37:56

My 13 month old is in bed around 7, up at 8am and one nap between 1230 and 1430. Good luck.

marriedandwreathedinholly Wed 02-Jan-13 07:51:02

Our dc are much older: 18 and 14 but controlled crying was very much the mantra back then. DS was a very poor sleeper and stll needs very little. The cc got him off at 8pm with no problems but for us it was counterproductive because he would be up after 6 or seven hours sleep ready to play and learn - he was at his most receptive at 2am or 3am - i wasn't and eventually we went with the flow and put him to bed at about 11pm when we went and that bought a full night of sleep DD was a more ordinary poor sleeper and much more needy and cc wouldn't have worked with her - she just wanted body contact. All babies are different and what works for one will not work for another.

If cc was working though and now isn't, please don't discount teething pain or ear pain which are both worse when lying down. Might be an idea to get him checked out if you are going to continue.

As far as no goes all you can do is constantly supervise and set very defined boundaries.

CoteDAzur Wed 02-Jan-13 10:55:39

midori - I'm sure your children sleep through, too. I don't claim to have exclusive rights to good sleep habits.

What I am saying is that "they sleep through in their own time" isn't much joy when everyone here knows that some don't. Not until they are 2 or even 3 years old. That is too long to persist in a sleep-deprived daze, and it is entirely unreasonable to expect parents to wait for years for a good night's sleep. And all for what? So baby doesn't cry for a few hours over several nights hmm

midori1999 ...funny that. All my older three sleep through all night every night too and have done from a young age.
WelshMaenad Mine too, midori. Odd!

No wonder you don't believe in sleep training - you've never had to consider it if that's the case! And don't believe for a second it's your exemplary parenting that's achieved that. You got lucky, pure and simple. I tried every gentle method going with DS from birth to encourage good sleep - he still wakes every 1.5 to 2 hours throughout the night, just like his dad and grandad did as babies.

Zimbah What I don't understand is why most people who do CC say how much they hated it, but that it was worth it because then their DC slept. They don't seem to realise/care that there are other methods that can also result in DC sleeping well that wouldn't necessitate all the crying.

What I don't understand is that every time we have a CC brawl, the anti-CC brigade come out assuming that those using CC 'don't seem to realise/care that there are other methods'. I haven't come across a single - not a single - MNetter using CC who hasn't considered and exhausted every gentle sleep training method going before using CC as a final resort. Do you really think that those using CC get some kind of perverse pleasure out of hearing their babies upset? Do you really, really not think that any thinking, caring mother would try everything else first when she doesn't feel that waiting it out is an option?

I've said this before, I'll say it again - I do not understand the vitriol that's directed at those that say they use CC. It's a parenting choice like everything else. When someone comes on here saying that they don't want to breastfeed because they just think it's a bit weird/creepy/odd/don't know anyone else who breastfeeds/can't be arsed with the difficulty of it, they get nothing but friendly support. If anyone came on telling them they were 'selfish', weren't 'sucking it up for the good of their child', 'cruel', 'neglectful' or any other of the many comments that have been made about CC, they'd be absolutely and universally shot down in flames (and rightly so). I just don't get why sleep training attracts such unpleasantness.

PessaryPam Wed 02-Jan-13 15:06:55

SirBoobAlot There is also so much evidence to show that both CIO and CC are not only harmless, but offer no long term sleep improvement.

Well CC worked for my twins, thank God! They've turned out OK and they can sleep for Britain now at 21.

PessaryPam Wed 02-Jan-13 15:15:53

BTW our CC with the twins was done under advice from the Sleep clinic when they were 13 months old. They did not sleep properly for 4 months before that and I nearly went insane with lack of sleep.

elphaba you must go on different ff/bf threads to me, everyone has ended in a bun fight with ff being told they're selfish etc. Don't know why I always get sucked in!

Some people are lucky, their dc sleep from sn early age with not much difficulty. Mine have all been awful, but so am I. After trying everything else at the age of 2. Ds2 I did it at 20 months.

We haven't tried it yet with ds3 21 months. Untill 2 weeks ago he had slept through a hand full of times since birth and woke up every night ever couple of hours.

Suddenly he has started sleeping through allthough I've still had a couple of times when he's woken at 3.30 and not gone back to sleep. We've tried everything except cc.

We tried cc with ds1 after trying everything else at the age of 2. Ds2 I did it at 20 months.

That should be!

FunnysInLaJardin Wed 02-Jan-13 16:47:53

Good post Elphaba

AmberSocks Wed 02-Jan-13 16:55:00

if its luck then ive been lucky 4 times,co sleepimg and falling asleep in your arms when they are tired is the way forward.

Ds3 would never fall asleep in my arms, even as a newborn and won't come into bed with us. Not that it was an option as he was prem

thegreylady Wed 02-Jan-13 17:10:48

My ds was born in 1970 and when we had sleep problems I sat right by the cot with my back to it and just stayed there playing lullabies very quietly on a cassette player.
If he screamed I just spoke to him and sometimes stroked his head but never picked him up unless he was wet or uncomfortable.
It did work-he knew I was there.
It took a couple of weeks.Sometimes I would say 'Mummy's going to the toilet' and would go for a couple of minutes-never more.I couldn't just leave him distressed but felt he had to learn that he wouldn't be held or played with-it was sleeping time.

NessunDorma Wed 02-Jan-13 17:26:47

I have a 14mo DS, he shares a room with his sister so couldn't be left to cry for more than 5 mins or she would wake up.

What worked for us was really wearing him out. So we put DD in bed,come back down and play hide and seek, playing with a ball etc. Just for half an hour. Then all the toys go away, we get his special blanket and a bottle of warm cows milk and have a cuddle on the sofa while he drinks it.

Then straight up to bed. I usually have to go in once or twice because he rolls around a lot when he is dropping off and gets tangled.

There have been times when he just wouldn't sleep so we popped him in the pram in the living room and rocked him til he slept, not often tho.

midori1999 Wed 02-Jan-13 18:09:42

elphaba nonsense. In fact, if you looked back through my threads over the last 18 months you'd see that I haven't just 'got lucky', there have been times I have been utterly exhausted and at the end of my tether and actually, the first time DD wears even able to go for a walk in her pram was when she was about three months old, she wouldn't nap or sleep during the day (and often at night) unless she was held until about 7 months old and it was hit and miss for a while after that. However, I believe CC is damaging (even in the short term, studies have shown that when babies stop crying their cortisol levels remain the same as when they were crying, which backs up the theory they have just learnt crying is pointless, they aren't 'settled') and so I won't leave my child to cry, it's simply not an option for me. It doesn't make me a perfect parent, but please don't think that anyone who refuses to do CC just 'got lucky'.

If others want to do CC and feel the potential problems or harm it may do are outweighed by the problems caused by lack of sleep for their family, that's their decision. However, most people seem to justify it by saying there are no negatives, no proven evidence etc. the fact is, we just don't know for sure.

Yes, AmberSocks you have been incredibly lucky. I co-sleep and feed/cuddle to sleep and I haven't had a block of sleep longer than 2.5 hours in months. 'Gentle' methods just do not work for some babies.

'...please don't think that anyone who refuses to do CC just got lucky.'

Sorry...struggling to see where I said that. Oh, I didn't.

I was inferring that anyone who has beautifully sleeping babies from early on, and then go on to use that as an illustration as to why CC is Evil and Unnecessary, has got lucky. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whatever techniques they may or may not have employed from early infancy.

PS Babies also get raised cortisol levels, which remain high for several hours, when they go to a different house (e.g. grandparents, friends or other family) or when they get taken out in the pram. Should we stop doing those things too? This excellent blog goes exhaustively into the research that has been done - both for and against. There hasn't been any study which has proven conclusively that CC/CIO causes lasting damage. Temporarily stresses the baby, yes. Permanently damages them, no.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 19:29:10

I did look at the studies around raised cortisol

Unfortuantly the 2 main ones making headlines recently were very flawed for a number of reasons.

I really hate bad science

There was a study by Oliver James recently that caused great headlines around childcare raising cortisol and therefore damaging children.

That study was hugely flawed (no control group for a start) and showed very slight increases in cortisol when children were at nursery than when they were at home. Which isn't really a surprise - everything we do produces cortisol. Waking up provides a nice big peak, as does excercise.

Cortisol is also potrayed in the media a A Bad Thing. It isn't - we need it. High levels over a sustained period will cause problems, yes (as will low levels, in fact you'll get Addison's disease for starters) but not over a short period. Some studies have found that higher cortisol levels result in improved mental performance, but those studies don't make the press as they don't make as good scare-mongering, mother-guilt-inducing headlines.

If anyone on here would say "Well I wouldn't do something to my child if a study showed it would raise thier cortisol levels by 40%. I wouldn't risk that." I would be very interested to hear them.

Because studies show breastfeeding as oppossed to formula feeding does just that. Which didn't stop me breastfeeding and I doubt it would have stopped a lot of people on here. But take a much smaller increase of cortisol that may be caused by CC and people jump on it as a Terrible Thing that will damage a child and must be avoided at all costs.

Knowing there is no conclusive evidence that it does not harm is of course, not as good as if there was conclusive evidence that CC does no harm. I agree we don't know for sure either way, but the cortisolstudies bandied about are very flawed.

TeWiSavesTheDay Wed 02-Jan-13 19:45:35

I completely agree with you OP. I also hate bad science, particularly when it's used as a stick to beat exhausted parents with.

This won't help specifically but I signed up to be the earth mother type - my DD has never slept in a co-sleeping situation. From birth she would stay awake if co-sleeping, (except oddly on the sofa, but that isn't safe)
Any kind of being in the room but not holding her, or rapid return made her completely and utterly inconsolable and hysterical to the extent that she wouldn't settle when you picked her up but just kept screaming.
So we tried CC. Except we never had to get to the controlled part because within 5mins she'd gone to sleep on her own. If she ever didn't I could guarantee she was ill.

My DS is completely different, has no trouble going to sleep but likes to wake up frequently to breastfeed. The thing that solved that was a month of DH sat with him and a bottle of water in the middle of the night and nerves of steel.

A massive part of being a parent is recognising that what works for your child might not be the thing you read a book about and being opened minded enough to try something else.

I hope the ideas you've been given on this thread help, OP.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 19:57:46

Thank you TeWi

I wish I had had a baby who just went to sleep of his own accord, or could be rocked asleep for ten minutes and then would stay asleep. Or who responded to pick up / put down or a different method, but like yours all these things made him more distressed and resulted in him not sleeping. I loved the co-sleeping we did until he was 9 months and wish it had been pratical for him and for us to continue.

I would never tell another parent CC is the right answer for them. It has (up until the last week) been the only thing that worked for us and DS. I wouldn't even expect it to be the thing that works for any subsequent babies. They are all different.

There has been some really helpful advice on this thread which I have appreciated. T
he unhelpful...well I suppose it is AIBU and people have strong views. It must be nice to be so certain about your own parenting you feel entitled to use it to try to hurt others who are just trying to do thier best. Although I can't imagine getting any sort of satisfaction from doing that myself and wonder why someone would feel the need to do so.................

Zara1984 Wed 02-Jan-13 20:09:57

Have read this post with interest OP!

Arrrgh will people just quit it with the sniffy CC is evil bollocks? There's no good science to prove it causes any harm. There is an infinite spectrum of children's personalities and sleep habits, just as there is an infinite spectrum of adult personalities and sleep habits. Do what works!

People that slavishly say a particular parenting technique is wrong or cruel need a hard dose of reality. I was like this before I had DS. BF was the best, FF was poison and for lazy parents! What a fool I was. Fast forward to DS refusing to latch and I now have a very happy health FF boy wink

I believe the applicable saying here is: pride comes before a fall!

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 02-Jan-13 20:13:56

grin Zara

I had so many rules and hard opinions before I had DS

Bless my DM, she never said a word, she just smiled and nodded grin

The slow retreat method worked with us in regards to getting ds3 to drop of on his own when first put to bed. We just never found anything that worked if he woke up in the middle of the night!

He was 16 months before retreating worked though so you may find in a couple of months things that haven't worked for you in the past start to work once he is a little older.

I know it doesn't help right now though and constant wakings and not going down to sleep are bloody awful. I'm hoping that our 2 weeks of all night sleeping last as we have another baby due in 5 weeks

marriedandwreathedinholly Wed 02-Jan-13 21:28:29

Different. Abies need different methods and you are all doing the hard yards. If it's any consolation our ds didn't sleep, had formula from 8 weeks, a dummy, a mum with pnd, a daily sweetie ration from far too young, was yelled at and once or twice even smacked.

None of that stopped him reaching 6'2", playing for the firt XV and bringing us home 11 A*s - might explain his A I suppose.

But what they need is love, nurture, a bit of security and buckets of encouragement - the rest of it are theories sometimes written by mothers; sometimes not and they all ebb and flow with fashion and the latest mantra.

One thing I do promise - by the time they are older teenagers you will be awake for half the night wondering where they are or rudely awoken at 2 or 3am as they stumble in slamming the door with or without two mates. Cherish the days when they wake you and you know where they are. Wd wink but haven't worked it out on phone smile.

Agree married ds1 is 18 in five weeks, and yep to the worrying and being woken up at 2.

Unfortunately he also wakes the toddler up some nights too!

marriedandwreathedinholly Wed 02-Jan-13 22:05:58

Oh moomins - a double whammy - do you find the two year old easier with extra years of experience. I had mine quite late and can't imagine having a two year old now - or coping with the exhaustion of a wee one.

BasicallySFB Wed 02-Jan-13 22:14:03

This thread like so many others has made me incredibly grateful that, while 2 year old DS has never napped properly, he does sleep at night and has since @ 10 months. Those first 10 months, with a tiny DS hanging off me on 5 hours broken sleep ALL DAY were trying. But - and here's the big but - it has Nothing at all to do with me or DH or any methods - it's just his nature and we're very very lucky and grateful.

He does have a very solid bedtime routine including our Night Night time - so after bath / creams (v bad infantile psoriasis) / PJ's / story, he gets in his cot, finds his Ted Ted (comforter - Bettine Bear from Mothercare, every child I've ever met loves them), snuggled down, nightlight on, lamp off, then we have 3 rounds of 'Love You' 'Byebyeeee'. We never deviate from this, BuT don't have a set time as he's in nursery 2 days a week and later home.

On the 'no' issue - DS did exactly the same. Using different words (hot / dangerous / arghhhhh that's my clean washing stop drawing on it with my sharpie) worked well. NO is for dire life or death things like running toward road and he stops straight away.

I really really hope you get a solution that works FOR YOU ALL. I frigging hate the way parenting decisions get polarised. Surely we're all at the mercy of our DC - their not robots who all work to the same routine / style / technique.

Good luck OP.

Zimbah Wed 02-Jan-13 22:25:53

Quick response to some of the people who replied to me:

Yes I do think there are some people who use CC before trying other methods. I've met people in real life who have merrily discussed using CC as essentially the 'go-to' sleep training method, rather than as an absolute last resort, and my HV recommended it to me without suggesting anything else first. I've also seen many threads on the sleep board where people discuss using CC as a first/second option who then seem surprised to learn about other ways of doing this. When I first posted there was nothing from the OP to say she'd tried other methods first so it's hardly surprising I suggested them is it. I don't think parents using CC get pleasure from hearing their babies cry but I know that lots of people attribute adult mindsets to babies/children and therefore have totally unreasonable expectations. I'm not saying any of the posters responding here do this but it's not uncommon at all.

Also, I'm not saying every baby should be snuggled to sleep while its mum sings lullabies and rocks it for three hours a night till the age of 15. I know some babies do that whimpering "I'm trying to fall asleep" cry and are best left on their own to get on with it, they're not actually upset.

married I had ds1 very young, I'm 34 now and sometimes think I had more patience with the younger two. Ds2 is nearly 10 and I had him at 24. I struggle more with pg now and lack of sleep!

I think having such big age gaps helps you not to worry about the fazes they go through, you look at the older 1 and remember they were the same but grew out of it. I'm probably more strict now than I was with the 1st.

Only down side is after 18 years of dc i have no idea what it's like having two close together so not sure how things will be when the new baby arrives.

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