Mumsnet Talk

I have actually NC for this as not sure this thread is a wise idea, but want honest opinions.

We are just starting ttc number 1 after ages debating about it. One of DH big concerns is that the baby simply will not sleep, as this is what happens with SIL's children. They go to bed okay but are up and down all night, for example, waking up at 2 or 3am, getting into bed with their parents, refusing to sleep and wanting to play. SIL's children are 2 and 5.

DH is terrified of this as for financial reasons we will both have to WOH. He is prepared for a rough few months with a new baby but feels it will be a nightmare if we hit 2 years and are still surviving on < 4 hours/ night.

I think that SIL has naturally wakeful DC, but I also keep telling DH you can parent to minimise that. For ex, SIL will take the children into bed and not insist on them staying in their own beds. That is NOT a criticism, as she is a lovely mum and very child-centred. But I think we can be stricter, parent differently, and not encounter the same problems years down the line as she does.

Am I just a crazy optimist? Are there just some children who never sleep no matter what, and getting up with them is what you do? Or is it actually possible if you are a working parent to work out an okay routine with wakeful children?

Yes by the age of 2 children should be capable of sleeping through and the reason they don't is because it is not a parental issue for their parents whi believe, quite rightly, that it won't be for ever.

But just because that's their take on it it doesn't mean it has to happen. If your priority is a child who sleeps through then you will investigate and use one of the techniques that's right for you,

There are many techniques from controlled crying to pat to sleep to sharing beds that can help a child sleep through but they take commitment and generally a week of hell.

Well you are right about being able to parent as best as you can to minimise sleep problems however I am on number 5 and have parented them all in the same way but no 5 had severe reflux so didn't sleep well for ages and I couldn't do the same things I'd done with the other ones eg put them straight down after feeds.
I'm concerned though that if your dh is pre empting sleep issues rather than long for a child if his own that he may not be ready as sleep is just one major life change that comes with babies. There are many more.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Aha ha ha ha ha ha h aha hhaha hahahaha

It is SO easy to be a good parent - until you actually have children.

Yes, in an ideal world, children would sleep all night in their own beds. But you wait - try insisting that the little one returns to their bed at 3 a.m. when you've spent the last 3 nights cleaning up sick in the small hours, you've got an important work meeting tomorrow morning that you can't miss, your partner is away on a work trip, you've used up all your annual leave due to children's illness, and you are desperate for a couple of hours' sleep .....

I guarantee that you'll let that child get into bed with you quicker than you can say knife.

I do think there's an element of crazy optimist in you thinking that you could definitely parent your children in such a manner to guarantee peaceful sleep. Some children just Do Not sleep. There are various theories as to why and what to do about it, but until you meet your child you won't know what type of sleeper he or she is, or what kind of parent you are.

I wholly believed I was going to be firm and no-nonsense when pregnant. Read all the books, smugly planned out tactics for dealing with x,y and z. DS practically laughed in my face when he arrived and I morphed into a true lentil weaver by way of coping. I would never have predicted that pre-children!

I have three and they all sleep, I put it down to routine and sticking to your guns.
Don't get me wrong they have all had their moments over the years but mostly by establishing good strict bedtime routines and just telling them to stay in bed and go to sleep at silly o clock has meant we rarely have a problem.

You're at the TTC stage, and you're worrying about this already .

We followed the Gina Ford sleeping/feeding routines <outs self as detached parent>, and apart from the odd phase, both of my DCs have slept through the night since they were 5 or 6 months old. A lot of people aren't comfortable with strict routines for babies, but I believe it is still perfectly possible to stop a 2 year old from waking up through the night, although I would imagine it takes a bit of self discipline by the parents.

you will learn. you. will. learn.

also, it doesn't sound like you have considered the possibility of having a child with SN if your DH is terrified of a midnight waker. you do know children aren't programmeable robots right? they come in all forms with all sorts of different personalities and sleeping tendancies. never mind the fact that after a few months of broken nights you will be so desperate for a bit of sleep you'd climb into the cot and sleep with the baby.

there are no certainties when you have dcs, part of their personality is nature and this is something that some people find hard to accept.

If you are a go with the flow type person then it can be easier to handle the various stages they will go through rather than trying to exert firm control when things happen.

Does your dh really want children? They are a great joy but they do wear you out and at times you can feel really ragged!

I also know someone who went for a very strict routine with their dts and at 4 one sleeps through but the other sometimes still wakes!

You're not a crazy optimist but you are very obviously someone that does not have children

That's not a criticism, I was the same before I had kids, I was sure I would be one of the stricter parent who did this and did that differently to all the parents I knew at the time. Then I had my first son and came into the real world.

Of course you can do things to help/encourage your child to sleep but some children just don't sleep. I have one of each and they have been bought up pretty much the same, so I have learnt my lesson in spades

Also I would add that you would be surprised how little sleep you can get by on. I did the eulogy at my dad's funeral on two hours sleep thanks to my toddler and newborn but it was fine.

Good luck TTC.

I am offering you and your DH a , OP I know you're just trying to think ahead, but I find your naivety to be bordering on ignorance.

I might be flamed for saying that though.

My DS slept like a dream until he was 2.7 years and we had a 2nd DC. That came alongside a few big milestones in his life such as becoming toilet trained and starting playgroup... since his sibling was born there are many nights that I'm up feeding the baby while DH lies on DS's floor trying to settle him.

Also, what about if your child is ill, disabled, etc?

Just because you WOH and so does your DH, doesn't mean that everything needs to revolve around your sleep patterns, either imagined or desired.

my best advice for you and your DH would be to set no expectations and just deal with whatever probelms come along when they happen.

Agree with Mrs McEnroe

agree with wannabedreams

I've got 4 and boy at times was it hard to be strict - keep putting them back in bed etc. but it's worth it in the long run

the thing that helped me was imagining that this was the most difficult thing I'd ever have to do eg. I'll never be able to soothe him, know what's wrong with him, get him to sleep, know if he's had enough to eat etc etc

I was so well prepared mentally for how awful it was going to be that the reality wasn't actually half as bad

You might have a child who sleeps through without much hassle, you might have a child who you have to use "parenting techniques" with before they sleep through, or you might just get a child that wont sleep for long no matter what you do.
While it could be due to SIL's parenting, it could also just be due to her childrens personalities, or her not having the heart to leave them crying, which you may find you can't do either when it's you in the situation.
But at the end of the day once your child is here they will be worth it.

Good luck.

And actually - if you have children that do not sleep, what do you think is going to get you more rest: getting up and down constantly, or taking them in to your bed, so you can at least doze off?

Both you and your DH are deluded in a "I have no idea what I am talking about" way. Which is normal, because you are not parents. If you honestly think that children will sleep because you need them to, and are only prepared for a few rough months... Maybe get a cat instead.

You can have a wonderful routine planned out in your head. Children, however, haven't read the books, and have entirely different plans.

Also, I remember when my PFB was a week old and I was talking to a sage elderly lady who had 5 children and dozens of grandkids.

She gave me a piece of advice that has stuck with me, and I tell it to other new parents:

"It's a baby, it's not a doll, you can't make it do what you want all the time."

I think it depends - apart from a few occasions mostly when the kids were not well, we never had any sleep issues. I think a lot of that is just down to the fact that they liked their sleep and were generally laid back babies but we were also quite strict about bed and sleep and they just accepted that. Maybe it was more luck than good management, but certainly it is not the case that all children are up all night and in and out their parents bed. I could count on one hand the number of occasions they have slept in our bed (just when unwell) and now that they are 12 and 11, I think we are quite safe!!

also some parents put their dcs to bed really early and say they sleep through when they get up at stupid o clock (5am) - as a non morning person I would have hated this (and preferred my dcs to go to bed later and get up later).

So you are unlikely to have both ends of the day.

"He is prepared for a rough few months with a new baby"

Few months? I'd be prepared for no full night's sleep until they've finished teething if I were you <downs energy drinks>

And I say this while looking at 9mo DS whose first tooth hasn't actually appeared yet, but is already causing problems.

Yes we did Gina Ford too < outs self as fellow detached parent> <hello MsVestibule> and yes, my DCs are very good sleepers BUT I have seen first-hand that some kids just aren't. My nephew has never slept properly and he has been parented just the same as his siblings - he just doesn't need as much sleep as they do, and his sleep patterns get disturbed much more easily if he is ill or upset.

Also, leaving children to cry in their own beds is extremely distressing and the OP may not have the stomach for it when she's faced with inflicting it on her own child I think ....... I guess I'm just saying that some kids just won't sleep! I was one of them apparently!

Yabu. My dd still wakes up in the night and is nearly 5. Initially it was a severe allergy that kept her up but she is just not a fan of sleep. I woh from 9 months and easily survived on <4 hours sleep at least 3 or 4 nights a week.

I tried EVERYTHING including a sleep clinic at £300 which helped improve things but to think different parenting would have helped is a bit My dd always had a set bedtime routine and was never allowed in our bed except when I couldn't cope with standing upright in her room anymore. I tried controlled crying and shhh pat etc. essentially sleeping is down to luck. Some kids sleep well and some don't. Some sleep well as newborns and then grow up to sleep badly and vice versa!

Good luck with it all and I look forward to hearing about your superior parenting one day...

You're not being crazy, actually.

I mean, it's not going to be the same kind of sleep you would get as a childfree person, not at all, but 99% of difficult sleeping dc can be coaxed into one block of decent sleep if you are prepared to find the right technique for them and you, and to spend time on it.

My DD was a very easy sleeper, slept well from about 4mths, DS required more effort, but once we started tackling it at 10mths he was sleeping well by 11mths.

There are lots of gentle approaches as well, it's not controlled crying or nothing.

Some dc do have medical reasons for not sleeping well, but the child might have a disability/sn/health issues is the gamble everyone takes.

Good luck with that, sometimes you just get a child that doesn't sleep.

Maybe you will have a child with health issues, in my case a child with severe asthma who stops breathing, chokes and vomits in his sleep.

Me getting a goodnights sleep really isn't important.

Sometimes it is just easier to let them sleep in your bed rather than keep getting up and down all night.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think there's a lot you can do to increase the chances that your child will be a good sleeper. A good night-time routine from the earliest stages. Showing the baby from the start that night-time is different to day-time. Putting the baby in his/her own bed from the start and - crucially - putting them in awake, so they learn to fall asleep by themselves. Not making it exciting or even interesting when they do wake. Etc. There are lots of useful books on the subject - I found they gave me the confidence to believe that babies can and do sleep, and night-times don't need to involve the sort of shenanigans you're afraid of.

Obviously children vary. But still, I believe that they all need sleep, they all need routine, and they can be taught how to sleep in the same way we expect to teach them other things.

"You can have a wonderful routine planned out in your head. Children, however, haven't read the books"

This is exactly what I have to remind myself a zillion times a day

You sound like every prospective parent I've ever known. It's the modern equivalent of hanging charms over the cradle to avert the Evil Eye.
You will do your very best as a parent, try not to do all the wrong things that your parents and relatives do. However you will make entirely new and different mistakes.
Mine slept 8 hours a day from the age of 6 weeks. Nothing to do with my parenting I think, more that the planets were aligned right.
So, do your best as we all do and forgive yourselves and your children when things go pear-shaped.
Good Luck.

I realise I sound a bit smug, really didn't mean to. I just honestly think most dc will sleep ok given the right approach for them.

Before you have children you are a idealist and have set ideas on what it will be like. Then you have children and all your big ideas go out the window. However my children have always slept well, this is partly luck and partly down to them being in routines from the word go, I didn't need to resort to controlled crying because my children got themselves into a routine.

My nephew is 2.5 and he has never slept for longer than 2 hours, I could not tolerate that I am not capable of surviving on such little sleep if either of my children had been like this I think I would have had to leave them to cry out. Nephew has 2 hourly milk feeds throughout the night, he is often up at 3 a.m playing with his toys and has never had a proper bedtime, if you want them to sleep you have to give them a helping hand.

I know lots of people in RL who are smug about how well their children sleep and don't understand parents who make a rod for their own back by attending to their child's needs at nighttime.

The very, very vast majority of them (the people I know, I mean) have been leaving their child to cry alone at night since they were small babies (not all the time, but obviously when they won't sleep). So, you may find that yes, there are parenting techniques that 'solve' this but you might not actually want to use them.

FWIW - my 2 and a half year old was a dream baby and slept through from 6 weeks. At 6 months she started waking around 5 times a night and getting up for the day at 5AM. We muddled through with a combination of taking in turns to shush pat her back to sleep, co-sleeping and finally, finally she started sleeping through in her own bed at the age of 2 after I spent a week sleeping on the floor of her room.

We survived, though it's put me off having a third dc.

Oh dear.

I have parented my kids the same way, stuck to the same routines etc, DS needs lots of sleep he always has, DD1 doesn't need a lot of sleep at all, she maybe sleeps 6 hours a night, its just the way they are.

Children don't do exactly as you want because you parent a certain way I'm afraid.

(Fwiw I was an eternal optimist and an expert until I had children too)

when you haven't slept for weeks/months on end you will do anything that gets you a couple of hours kip regardless of whether they are 2 months or 2 years old and if that means you are all in one bed then so be it

i have two kids and i haven't slept through the night since October as DD has been pretty poorly since then - she is 3 years old

it's what happens with kids - I work FT as does DH

TBH, sleep deprivation is just one of the ways your life will irrevocably change

By all means do things differently to your SIL, but don't make the mistake of thinking that this will guarantee a sleeping child.

I have one child who falls asleep quickly and stays that way all night.

I have one child who stays asleep all night but sometimes takes a while to fall asleep.

I have one child who is regularly awake until 1am and beyond, sometimes even after taking (prescribed) medication that is supposed to make them feel sleepy.

I have one child who generally falls asleep late but is usually asleep by midnight.

I'm sure if someone had asked me pre-children, I would have been right there with you in thinking non-sleepers could be easily avoided. I soon learned my lesson.

TeWis the problem is the right approach for them may not seem the right approach for you (Eg. they may sleep perfectly when co-sleeping, but scream until they vomit each night if you try to put them alone) like my DD.

IMO once many babies reach a certain age, consistency and firm boundaries can make a big difference. However, I think done children are exceptions to this and are naturally not good sleepers.

In the case of my DC I did no 'sleep training' whatsoever until they were about 12m. Then we made a 'rule' that once they were in bed they had to stay there. We gently enforced this, and it worked for our DC. If they have needed one of us close by, we have used a blow up bed on their floor.

I've been lucky to have kids that sleep well, I do think we helped this to happen a bit. However, I'm under no illusion that had one of them been naturally wakeful, there may have been very little we could do about it.

i just think its a strange attitude on your dhs part which suggests to me that maybe he's not so keen to have kids..

Oh, I should say. I thought I knew what I was getting into with DD2 as when her sister was born we did the pick-up put-down thing from the baby whisperer when she was about 6 months old she started sleeping through 13 hours a night within a couple of days.

I was sure I could just do it again if I needed to with the second. No chance!!! It didn't work with her at all. All babies are different!

you might get lucky and have a naturally good sleeper. Truly, i wouldn't be worrying too much at this stage as you will get what you get and if you are prepared to go with the flow, it all works out.

However, a good routine does help, but be prepared to be flexible as lots of things can throw them out such as being ill, teething, christmas, summer nights (too much sunshine).

We had one really easy baby (DD1) and one that had reflux (DD2) and found settling into a routine tricky. With DD2 I co-slept for much longer as that just made more sense.

Wow lots of responses!! Going to try and respond.

MsVestibule and Booyho we are worried about this now basically the last 5 years of BIL's life (DH brother) have been dominated by child sleeping issues. BIL and SIL are amazing parents but they look like zombies, go to bed at 9, up again at 11 with one of them crying, up again at midnight, up again at 2 etc etc. DH has a 90-min commute and we both work long hours and we are just worried about this.

Yes I know our child might have SN, I grew up with a sick sibling and appreciate how physically tough it can be. You can't do anything about that, I suppose.

Yes, YABU and very naive. But you're allowed, because all of us were naive about what it would be like.

My DS is 5 and is, always has been, a brilliant sleeper. I would love to take credit for that (co-slept from birth, never woke to a crying baby once, I was consistent with napping), but the fact is I got lucky. Maybe what I did just worked with his personality, maybe I was lucky that I was very relaxed about the whole thing. Yes, there are things you can do to encourage healthy sleep habits but they may mean nothing and 'stricter' means nothing. Yes, you do need to sign up for years of tiredness and disturbed sleep. Although I think my son has been a brilliant sleeper, there have been plenty of sleepless nights - there are nights of illness, he has had all the textbook sleep regression periods. By the way, it is absolutely natural for children, as baby mammals, to want to sleep next to their parents. That isn't caused by parents not being strict enough and your SIL is probably smart enough to just be choosing to maximise sleep for everyone by taking them into bed when they wake.

Re: your OP - tbh, the way you describe your SIL she sounds like she might be practising attachment parenting. Which, you're right, you absolutely do not have to do.

If that's how they parent their kids though, that is fine and it sounds as though they are well responded to and looked after.

needles you said I am ignorant - I am - that's why I'm asking people who know!!! I don't think it's shameful to be ignorant, but only to be wilfully ignorant.

I know babies are not dolls and there will be hellish times, and wonderful times. But I am not talking about a few nights here and there, I am talking about every single night for 5 years. That is what I am wondering if we can avoid.

If you make the commitment to having a child, you make the commitment to accepting your life will change forever, and that their needs come over yours. And that includes responding to their needs in the night. Some people have utterly unrealistic expectations of children.

One more thing. My DD1 (age 4) creeps into bed with me sometimes in the middle of the night. I love it! Certainly don't insist on her going back to bed, it's nice to feel close to her.

"DH has a 90-min commute and we both work long hours "

You realise this ^^ is a choice, right? It may be a big life-changing choice to change this, but so is having children.

Well... There's no guarantee with children. They may not be able to produce melatonin like DS, and not sleep, they may be born with disabilities, SN. If you have a child you have to accept that they'll come first. Which I am sure you will. Not everything will be perfect no matter how you parent

Good luck with it all and I look forward to hearing about your superior parenting one day

Numerical honestly I don't think I would be superior, just different!!! SIL is a great mum, she really is. I am just not sure her methods would work for me.

Oh, and another thing.

Well, you'll get what you'll get. I don't think you should waste your breath trying to convince your DH that things will be different for you - you just don't know how it will be.

I'd be more concerned with working out how committed he is to the idea of having DC. What if you convince him you won't have long term sleep issues and then you do? He's an adult, he's expressed a valid concern. It might happen.

You will have no idea what temperament your child will have until they arrive. So you may have a child that sleeps through from two months old. Or you may have a child that wakes up at 3am for three years needing a cuddle.

Can you avoid your sleep pattern being forever changed, your energy levels being utterly depleted, and your life generally being turned upside down? Nope. No way. Not a chance. And that doesn't matter how they sleep, that is a condition of parenting.

Going You wont know if you can avoid it until it happens. Best bet is to prepare yourself for no sleep whatsoever, then anything more is bonus! I think that in all honesty you have very little control.

SirBoob "Can you avoid your sleep pattern being forever changed, your energy levels being utterly depleted, and your life generally being turned upside down? Nope. No way. Not a chance. And that doesn't matter how they sleep, that is a condition of parenting."

I might get this tattooed somewhere...

OP I hate having my sleep disturbed and I am completely rubbish when I've not slept well. Coping with sleepless and broken nights was something I worried about prior to having DC.

Yes the lack of sleep was very very tough, but I never for one moment regretted having DC. They are the light of my life. Parenthood is tough but it's a privilege that I wouldn't swap for any abound of zzzzzzzs.

A week before Christmas I did controlled crying with my 8 month old. It worked amazingly and she slept through on the 3rd night. On the 5th day she got a cold and she's been ill ever since. I'm now back at square 1. I'll do it again and then there'll be teething. My point is, regardless what you do, there's always a curveball. However, I think it's important to stress that you adjust to the sleep deprivation and it's worth it because you'll love your child more than you know.

I'm not going to offer you any advice or tell you you're wrong or any of those things about sleep because, who knows? You might be able to 'train' your child to sleep the way you want them to.

I am going to mention that I agree with those saying your husband isn't ready for kids yet. What is he going to do if it doesn't work? Send the kid back?

Ds2 is 7 and is generally up for the day at 4am, often earlier.

Dd is 4 and has erratic sleep patterns.

Both have SN and I believe anyone considering having children should be prepared for the possibility of their child having SN. I wasn't yet all three of mine do.

when you haven't slept for weeks/months on end you will do anything that gets you a couple of hours kip regardless of whether they are 2 months or 2 years old and if that means you are all in one bed then so be it

Ruby, thanks But just to be clear, SIL's DC don't sleep, eg she will bring them into bed and they will lie there singing or want to play with her. I am not knocking co sleeping, this is more like co waking!!!

Goths Can you follow me around MN and quote me regularly? Its doing wonders for my ego this afternoon

I'm inclined to think that those parents who think their parenting has made their children sleep through from an early age have never had a baby that just won't go to sleep. Same as those parents who have children who aren't fussy eaters - they have never had to deal with a very fussy eater.

In their minds these children don't exist, just useless parenting.

I found letting them in my bed meant I didn't get any sleep so that was counterproductive. Better to invest the effort in getting them to sleep in their own beds. I have 3, various problems between them I.e. Severe reflux, milk allergy, hyperactivity but they ALL slept through the night between 6-12 months from a combination of Gina Ford's routines(not methods) and Dr Richard Ferber's methods (Solve your child's sleep problems was my bible). Now they're all over 5 and cannot remember the last time one woke up in the night. So I'm a believer that you can influence this...

You can reassure dh, that getting up 3x a night, every night for 5 years is not normal.
You can certainly try different approaches, which are likely to contribute to their ability to sleep through.
However, there will always be the odd child - for all the reasons suggested above, or for no fathomable reason - who doesn't sleep well. You can't plan how you will handle it, because you don't know.
That said, there are some children not that I ever had one who sleep through for 12 hours really well from very young. You are just as likely to have one of those as one that wakes up 3x a night after the first few weeks/months. They are less usual, but both sorts exist.

I'm sure there's not a parent among us who "knew" exactly how they were going to handle every choice, every situation or circumstance that arose, and then stuck to it - we all do our best, and we all choose certain things we will not give in on, and other things that we realise aren't such a big deal as we thought they would be.
Try not to worry too much about ifs and buts and maybes. All sorts of things in your life will / can change in the next 2 - 3 years, so many of them for the better

Surviving on a small amount of sleep is hard, but it's definitely not the hardest part of parenting IMO. I think your DH is focusing unnecessarily on one thing, something that might not even be a problem which might just be because he's nervous. Some children are great sleepers, some are not, it's just luck of the draw IMO, but all children change your life massively and that's what you really need to be prepared for.

SirBoob Should I be carrying one of these?

OP I have a sleeper. But its pure chance: the first 8 weeks were hell and then he started sleeping through. But we still don't get much sleep when he's ill or teething.

Agree that the 90minute commute is a choice: its easier to change a job/house than to change a child's nature. And you will need to be able to cope with tough weeks even if you manage to have a child who generally sleeps though when your DC decide to grow a new tooth and have a cold whilst you're trying to meet an important deadline. But you will cope, because that is just what has to be done.

Finally consider that your BIL/SIL may be going through sleep hell but 2-3 years into it they decided to have another child. So they clearly thought the benefits outweighed the sleep deprivation too.

Thanks Owlfright

Yam that also helps, I hope I just learn to do more with less, as it were!

A couple of people have said about DH maybe not wanting chidlren. I think this is a tough one. We both do but DH is very - IMO too much so - anxious about disruption. I sort of think, what will happen will happen, we'll try to minimise sleep and eating problems and manage how we can etc, but I think DH is stressed about it. That said I think DH will make a fantastic father, he plays with his little nieces really well.

And just a word of warning... If your H is saying he's prepared for a few rough months only, I think you need to consider that he may well leave you doing all the night feeds / changes / settling. My ex certainly did. Breastfeeding gets your more sleep anyway (top on my list of reasons for breastfeeding when I was pregnant...) but ex never moved more than to roll over in the night when DS woke up, because he ''needed his sleep''.

OP

i think you and your DH really need to think about whether you want a child/children (you could have twins or more!)

i believe that when you decide to get pregnant you are deciding to have every possible outcome happen. so you need to accept that twins will be coming, SN will be coming, no sleeping will be coming, illness will be coming.

you need to be completely in acceptance of all those things before you decide to get pregnant.

I would think that children without SN who are not ill (illness is of course going to affect a child's sleep much as it would an adult's - you know how hard it is to sleep with a bunged-up nose etc) who wake every night at age 5 are fairly unusual. Not non-existent, but fairly unusual.

Same for 2 year olds. DD is 2y 7mo and probably sleeps through 70% of the time. On the occasions when she wakes, she is usually up for a short period and will go back to sleep (after one of us has been in to give her a drink/a cuddle/get the cat off her bed) after a few minutes. Very occasionally, she might have a bad dream and want to get in bed with us - which we do allow, but not more than once or twice a month generally. I would say this is fairly typical for most of the other children we know of her age. Most of the mums I know were getting a decent block of sleep from around 9 months. My DD woke frequently until 12 months.

DH and I both work full time. We are expecting DC2 in 4 weeks and we are dreading the newborn sleepless nights - although I hope it will be easier this time as I have a vague idea what to expect, and I know it isn't for ever. I will do what I did last time and have the baby with me, whilst DH sleeps in the spare room. He has a long drive to work and I would be terrified of him having an accident if he was up all night. He will get up early at weekends and take both children out so that I can catch up a bit though.

There are lots of coping mechanisms you can use if you have a child who is not a good sleeper - such as taking it in turns to have a full night, letting friends/grandparents/other relatives take the child for a night while you catch up a bit etc. Don't underestimate the power of one really bloody fantastic full night's sleep to stock up your energy tank when you're desperate.

You will also get used to having less sleep. I love sleep and lie-ins, but actually I find that I don't much mind getting up in the night. DH never lies in, but is useless at waking in the night. So generally I do the getting up at 3am to get DD a drink of water/get dolly from downstairs/remove the cat, and DH gets up with her and gets her dressed and breakfasted whilst I have an extra 20 minutes. So you do adapt.

"That said I think DH will make a fantastic father, he plays with his little nieces really well."

you are confusing, 'fantastic father' with 'fun uncle' there is a HUUUUUGE difference. you really do sound very very naive about all this.

Crossed posted with you OP. It sounds like you are already trying to tiptoe around him with things that are all part of normal parenting. People can be wonderful influences, and take care of children brilliantly, but still not be able to cope with the realities of becoming a parent.

Think maybe some more talks are in order, if I'm honest.

"We both do but DH is very - IMO too much so - anxious about disruption."

The definition of children is disruption, even if they sleep from day 1 and eat everything in front of them. If you're worried about disruption, or your husband is, then don't have children.

You will face lots of challenges as parents that don't meet your assumptions about how you'd handle them. Babies, toddlers and children like to trample all over your carefully-laid plans. They haven't read the books... oh, and just as you've got them figured out and found a way of dealing with whatever stage they are at, the little buggers grow and develop and present you with a whole new set of challenges.

But they are delightful, entertaining, gorgeous and worth it. And you will find a way of coping/muddling through with whatever you get given. Not least because you have found MN and can always post whatever is bugging you on here and get a whole range of responses. Some of which will be worth trying and some of which might even work!

"anxious about disruption"

I think that one of the definitions of being a parent is disruption. There's no avoiding it.

Tee X-post, great minds and all that!

PMSL at the OP.

Do you think people actively choose to have non sleeping children?

We actively try not to but it happens. However mine are not like your SILs. Ds at 3 is fine! Dd at 13 months has a way to go. But both of mine have had issues which has meant shit sleep.

Almost all children I know sleep through aged 2. Yes there might be the odd night they are sick or have a nightmare but most are very settled and stay in their own beds. Saying that babies aren't miniature robots and won't necessarily fit into the routine you already have in your mind

My DS was a fucking awful sleeper for well over a year, maybe 2. There were various issues that contributed to this (reflux, constipation) that didn't help but also he just needed a lot of help getting to sleep. I remember at a post natal group looking around in astonishment at babies falling asleep in mother's arms as they chatted when mine just got angrier as he got more tired and needed severe rocking for prolonged periods to go to sleep (put them down awake hah hah). I could have decided to parent differently but it wouldn't have helped as it wasn't the parenting causing his sleep issues. We did what we had to do to get any sleep at all.

He's 3.5 and a fab sleeper now. However, we worked through it, existing on very little sleep, both me and my DH. Even when I was on maternity, even though I only work part time, he got up in the night too, did early mornings, let me get some sleep. I would have gone insane if he hadn't. Honestly. I would worry that your DH would abdicate all responsibility for sleeping to you because of his commute, because he has to work, because we discussed this before the baby was born and you know I need my sleep. If you get a crap sleeper, you must be sure that he will pull his weight.

Booyho thanks. I maybe am naive. But I have thought about this for a long time. I actually once started a thread right when we first discussed ttc (long time lurker) asking about how people coped with children with SN and mostly got told I was overthinking it!!

I think DH wants children in principle but is also worried about the disruption. I guess my own take on this is that he only sees the negatives and will feel differently when he has a child of his own. He is a very caring, loving, and responsible person and I think he will deal well with fatherhood. But obviously this is just my judgement call. My own dad wanted children very much, but did bugger all when we were born and hardly changed a nappy in his life despite having 4.

"anxious about disruption".

Even if your children were perfect eaters and sleepers your life changes. If it doesn't then you must be a cop out hands off parent.

Tee this is not mention to be controversial, but as for this

The definition of children is disruption, even if they sleep from day 1 and eat everything in front of them. If you're worried about disruption, or your husband is, then don't have children

do you not think worrying about this stuff is normal then? Honestly? Before you had DC did you think 'Great, SN, sleep deprivation, picky eaters, I don't care!'

Or did you feel like 'gosh, it's going to be tough and being a childless person is fun, but I really want children long term and I'm going to try taking the plunge'?

I thought I was ready to gird up my loins and give it a shot but maybe I am wrong and most people just feel 100% certain about everything before they have DC - ??

" he only sees the negatives and will feel differently when he has a child of his own."

oh op! people's personalities dont change when they become parents. if he's a pessimist he will always be a pessimist! he will just start seeing more negatives after the baby is born, ones he hadn't even thought of and will be grumpy because it's having an effect on him that he didn't even think of.

if he's anxious aboyt disruption, he'll always be anxious about disruption. tbh i dont think he sounds like he can cope with the life changes a child brings. is he a bit of a control freak?

You also have to remember that sleep is just one part of it all.

My DS was a terrible night-time sleeper but otherwise was practically perfect -- very laidback and happy, took nice long daytime naps, never got sick, really a dream about everything but sleep. One of my friends on the other hand had a DC who slept through very early on, but was otherwise very difficult -- wanted constant attention, always grumpy, very difficult to wean, etc.

You really do have to go with the flow -- be grateful for the things that are good and muddle through on the things that aren't.

How much maternity leave will you take? Can you cut back on your hours/commute? What options do you have if things do get difficult?

I do get where the posters concerned with OP's DH's commitment to having DC are coming from. However, as an awful over thinker (and worrier), I worried about how life would change if we had DC, and how I would cope. But it didn't mean I didn't want DC, or that I wasn't committed to giving them 100%.

"do you not think worrying about this stuff is normal then? Honestly? Before you had DC did you think 'Great, SN, sleep deprivation, picky eaters, I don't care!' "

I think the best thought process is probably, "I know it's going to be damn hard but it'll be worth it, I'll just be prepared for the worst". Rather than, "I don't want it to disrupt things".

It's the disruption comment that got me.

I'm very anxious - I didn't realise just how much until the DCs arrived. But disruption - I knew that would happen.

x-post

I would be scared shitless of having a child with someone who was anxious about disruption. Children ARE disruption. And you do not want to share the newborn days with a committed pessimist because it can indeed be rough and having someone focus on all the worst bits will make it so much harder.

Of course no one looks forward to sleep deprivation and all the rest of it but most take your approach and hope for the best.

You really need to make sure he's on board with this. My fear for you is that if you do end up with a bad sleeper he will basically say 'I told you so!' and leave you to deal with it.

It's a total lottery. I parented my 3 DCs the same. 2 sleep with no problems. The other has been referred to a Sleep Clinic because he's so bad.

Awful. 8 years of broken nights and nothing works.

* is he a bit of a control freak?*

No Booy totally the opposite! Quite, chilled, and pretty independent. I actually think he will make an excellent father to a child, because he is interested in education, explaining things, taking walks, nature, and reading.

I think he will be less keen on the baby stage but he has a great sense of responsibility and although I think he will feel miffed at losing sleep, he is not one to let me get on with stuff while he puts his feet up. I sort of think there will be tough time but we will get through them, SIL's situation is extreme and there are ways to manage, and the rewards will compensate for the changes.

I guess I was just looking for reassurance but this thread has given me a lot to think about.

I surely can't be the only one who didn't think about disruption and lack of sleep before we decided to have kids?

I just thought about the nice stuff

Before you had DC did you think 'Great, SN, sleep deprivation, picky eaters, I don't care!'

Yes. That's what I thought. I found out I was pregnant and all I thought was 'WHOOT!! A BABY!!!'

And I have Anxiety Disorder and other assorted issues but I have never been one to fret about things I can't control. And you can't control children in many many ways.

Iggly I guess we know it will happen, it's just thinking how to manage it. That's why I started this in part, as I think there may be ways to manage.

I think DH's attitude is 'the child will be lovely but we will never sleep again' and I just think that's a bit ott...... that we can get on with it, people do......

think positive OP and it definitely doesn't have to be the same as your SILs situation - I think chilled parents have chilled babies. You may get kids that aren't great sleepers, but at the end of the day you will cope and will work out what is more important.

I think it's very random how well your babies sleep.

I was very baby led, and co-slept, and did not try any baby-training techniques whatsoever, and I didn't basically put my baby down for about 5 weeks and she fed every 1-2 hours in the day and night and demanded to be held always, and then suddenly she started sleeping through the night and now at 13 weeks old sleeps 11 hours straight a night. (and we are no longer co-sleeping even though I was happy to long term)

I don't take credit for it, I parented the way I wanted, my child's security and feeling of being loved being very important to me, and that's the way it ended up.

I was an excellent sleeper as a baby and so was boyfriend. maybe that has something to do with it.

I never judge parents with kids who don't sleep. Kids massively vary.

Tee maybe the difference is I am not pg yet. Hmmm.

.....on the other hand, you may get a baby that sleeps through in the hospital like me

I'm with you amck - I just presumed babies slept most of the time, woke and had a feed every 4 hours, then, gurgled happily a bit while people passed them round
I guess some of us are 'glass half full' people and some are 'glass half empty' people. Maybe Going's dh is a half empty person, or a natural worrier.
Honestly though, you can't understand the fierce love that kicks in for your own child, and the ability you have as parents to cope with all sorts of things that would have horrified you pre-children.
Don't worry so much! Get on with the ttc

A child will disrupt absolutely everything, but it will be wonderful.

TBH I'm kind of with you on the sleep. You can't make a child a good sleeper, but from 3/4 you can insist that they stay in bed and allow others to sleep.

No, I think the difference is overall attitude.

It took me nearly 2 years to conceive my son and we weren't sure it was going to happen at all (I'm very very old) so I had lots of time to think. And all I really thought about was how very badly I wanted a baby.

He's now 3.6 and playing with his cars.

Thanks squid - NOT judging SIL but both DH and BIL were poor sleepers, and now the DNs, and I am just hunkering down anticipating the worst.

But probably overthinking...........

he sounds the complete opposite of chilled TBh OP. i cant balance the thought of such a chilled person being so terrified of sleep loss and axious about disruption.

from reading your posts i dont think you as a couple are just there yet WRT having a baby. if i'm honest it doesn't sound like you know your DH that well, or if you do you are in denial. you need to know completely that he is 100% committed to being a father from the moment you are pregnant and not just when the fun parts kick in like playing football. he has to be in it from the start!

Tee actually that is kind of how I feel - I am mid 30s and for ages thought I would never meet someone to have dc with. We have spent ages saving up and planning for when we could afford dc. Now we are ready to get on with it but whilst I am desperate to have a baby suddenly DH has this grim 'we'll do it but it might be terrible' kind of attitude.

Tee - we were the same - i ended up with 2 13 months apart after that - that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been a good sleeper ;)

He also used to lay happily under a baby gym - drop of for a nap and then wake up and start playing again

Whatever they are like you learn to cope and you love them. You look back and wonder how you did it. I was a solicitor doing evening and night work in police stations and court work all day when mine were little, neither of them reliably slept through until they were 8 months old. I went back to work when they were 8 weeks old on both occasions. DH and I slept in separate rooms and took night duty with baby in turns. At least you get uninterupted sleep every other night that way. We did buy a book about the controlled crying technique with DS2 and it did seem to work.

My son was a terrible sleeper, amck. For years. He didn't really start sleeping well until he was nearly 3.

Sorry, OP, not what you want to hear.

And it had nothing to do with parenting, but with being ill a lot and having night terrors and lots of things like that that just can't be controlled.

OP please can you come back when you have your pfb and tell me how to parent so we don't have sleep problems?

My ds wakes in the night and gets in our bed, DH gets out so we all get a good nights sleep. DD has been treated exactly the same and is sleeping better at 3months than ds is at 2.3.

If you can spot what I have down different to make this happen, you're a better parent than me.

When you do have your own dc, you will realise they are unique... Not your dnieces and denephews. If you don't cuddle them when they cry in the night, nobody else will. That makes me which is why my ds is allowed to come in for a cuddle when he is sad in the dark. And my dd will if she wakes when she's older. And any other dc we have.

DC1 slept through from the age of 7 weeks. DC2 didn't sleep through until he was almost 3 years. Then we were blessed with Dc3 with SEN who only needed 5 hours sleep a night, and DC4 who would have slept 23 hours a day.

Currently having refusal-to-go-to-sleep and several wakings a night issues with our almost 6yo DC5.

Anyone who insists they never have problems due to their superior parenting skills is either lying or deluded.

If its a family trait to need less sleep, then I think you should be working on the basis of that, tbh.

Breastfeeding, co-sleeping and having a supportive partner who will not moan when you need a nap all come in handy.

Being anxious about specific things is completely normal; I was worried about bathing DS as a small baby! Being worried about the overall disruption is kind of an indicator that he isn't ready, I feel. Children are disruption, but they shouldn't feel like it when you're thinking of conceiving, IYKWIM. Think practically, yes, but if you are already saying, "It's going to disrupt everything!" as your conclusion from thinking about things, then that would really concern me.

We spent the first 4 months or so worn out and up every couple of hours

I think that's pretty standard unless you get blessed with a baby that sleeps through straight away (I have heard they exist but certainly don't have one)

Then we started co-sleeping which was great and saved my sanity

At 9 months we put him in his own room but were still up two or so times a night

At 12 months we did CC which worked like a dream and (fingers crossed) he now sleeps from 8pm to around 6am

The CC was the best thing we ever did and I think we could have done it from about 9 months but I really don't think he would have been ready for it any earlier than that

All babies are different so you might get lucky or you might get really unlucky

Either way you just have to find what works for you but don't rule anything out other than the fact you will be throwing your preconceptions out of the window faster than you get through nappies!

Tee, that's what I mean I think, there are things you can do to help with some little ones, others are just naturally good sleepers but sometimes you just get a poor sleeper for whatever reason but you cope with it, just don't presume that that is the norm and all babies are like that and there is nothing that can be done.

I don't have children yet OP and I worry about this stuff too. I speak to friends who have children and think 'how will I manage on a few hours sleep, I love my sleep'. But my friends with children all say it's worth all the rough times because of all the amazing times you'll have with your DCs too.

So what is he prepared to do if it is terrible?

I think that's the key question. It's not so bad to worry. But what is he prepared to do about it?

I would want an answer to this question before going any further. You don't want to find out later he's not ready to make any changes to his life or lifestyle (aka disruption).

True, amck. Also, things change.

My son was a baby who I actually woke up on our first night home because he had slept for nearly 6 hours!

Then he turned about 11 months and it all went to pot...

Please let's consider the possibility that OP's DH might adjust well to having DC and be a great Dad. I'm concerned that people are telling her this is not the case, and that to worry about how having DC will change your life is a sign of not really wanting or bring prepared for them- which is not necessarily true.

I think I've seen many threads from women who are considering the impact that havi g DC will have on their lives, and who are worried about it. Sometimes these women are already pregnant with longed for babies, but are having a wobble.

They get many responses along the lines of it being normal to worry but that it will be worth it, and that once DC arrive your fierce love for them overpower your concerns.....

Ds1 was not a great sleeper but I didn't return to work so didn't need him to be. Even so, I really struggled and eventually did sleep training at 7months. He's slept perfectly ever since.
I used a strict GF (sleep part only as BF) routine from day 1 with ds3 and he was a much better sleeper but still took 9months to sleep through.

It sounds like you're being realistic and your DH is putting obstacles in the way.

I think you're being a bit unfair saying the OP (or her husband) aren't ready to have children just because they don't think of it in a rosy everything-will-be-perfect tone. I understand the OP's husband, I think, as I'm a worrier an try to plan and expect everything as things don't feel so bad if you're prepared. So I went into my pregancy thinking I will never sleep again until my child is a teenager. It helped because the 5-6 hours of sleep I got over a 24h period felt like an absolute bonus in the beginning. And it got better around 3 months. We had to do some sleep training after I went back to work because I couldn't deal with 3 feeds a night but by that time it was fine because my husband and I had both learned how to deal with temporary disruptions to sleep.

I can sympathise with his 'grim it might be terrible attitude' because I'm 8 months pregnant with my second and I know from my first how awful it actually was.

But I know that I've done it once and am prepared to do it again as I want a sibling for DS. And I know that I've got a very supportive partner. This is really important.

And hey, this time it might be different, so there's always hope.

dreaming I think - think - he will be fantastic if things are tough.

I think this because of how he is now. I have a v tough job with long hours which I am already planning to scale down. Last year I did not have a day off from Oct-march other than 3 days at Christmas and one other random day.

DH cooked, shopped, got on with things, rubbed my neck when I was tired and understood when I was a total bitch bit tired in the evenings. He was amazing. We got through. I feel like, if we have children, he will fall in love, as he always takes to children, and if things are tough, he will cope.

I almost think he does not have enough confidence in himself but when things happen, he rises to the occasion.

I hope. But like I said, my dad supposedly wanted DC, never did a stitch, totally didn't cope with children well, and my parents got divorced. I feel like you just have to make an educated guess as I'm pretty sure my mum didn't see that coming.

Owl and riksti thank you those posts made me feel much better.

Hmmm. mine is not a good sleeper (he is 2.5 now). I wonder if its us or just how he is TBH. He never co-slept with us until I went back to work and couldn't handle being up for hours every night. He's always had a solid routine. We read lots of books....worked hard on self-settling, making sure his room was just right - temperature, light level, introduced comfort toy - on and on and on. He just goes through these cycles of sleep disruption....sometimes for weeks at a time. Could be teething, a cold coming, a growth spurt....most of the time we have no idea. Aside from leaving him to cry, we've tried it all. The leave to cry thing is not our cup of tea so we haven't gone down that road yet.

It's trying but we cope - we have no choice. Now I follow less rules and go with the flow. I'm sure we seem like we are making a rod for our own backs to some....but it's so different when they are yours.

There's no way to predict the future, Going. So your husband may absolutely step up and be a great dad. I hope so, in fact!

I did everything I could to maximise sleep for everyone, for various reasons including medical ones. For us this meant co-sleeping. My children are now 9 and 6 and sleep in their own beds all night, every night, and it has been this way for years. They are also excellent at sleeping in unfamiliar beds on holidays, sleepovers etc. So yes, I think how you parent does affect how your children end up as sleepers.

DS1 was waking every 2 hours when i went back to work, he was 8mo .CO sleeping was the best way for everyone to get rest, he was much more settled and I never had to leave my bed. He went to his own bed happily at 22mo - he didn't sleep through until 18months.
DS2 we had the same approach, at 5 mo he sleeps better than his brother at 16 mo.
When I was pregnant first time I planned to put him in his own room when he out grew his Moses basket. I claimed he was never going to be in my bed because I thought it was dangerous, I learned better. Parenting is one huge learning curve. It's ok to not know everything from the start, but please don't mention your ideas to SIL.

Oh I should add OP....our bad sleeper is a wonderful child and we love him more than breathing . if you want children I think you have to expect some difficulties but also expect that you will grow and stretch as people becoming capable of more than you imagined.

I think if before I'd had DS someone had told me how little sleep I would get, I would have thought 'how on earth will I cope???' but the thing is, when you have a baby, especially if you have a bad sleeper, it's an utter revelation how little sleep you can manage on. It's like a completely different world to the one where you're used to 8 solid hours and feel like crap if you go to bed an hour late or get woken early. Now that my DS sleeps, I'm back to feeling rubbish if my sleep is broken, but back then I had a whole year of not getting more than 2 hours sleep at any given time, and often getting less than that, and still managing to function. I drove long distances without the slightest worry that I'd fall asleep at the wheel, I visited friends, went for days out, went back to work. And it was doable. It wasn't great, but you just go into a different zone.

I really eodn't base your decision to have a child around this! Infact if you do I think you are not ready!

NannyOgg - oh God no, I have learnt one thing from MN it is never never criticise another mum's parenting esp when she is sleep deprived!!!! Actully one reason I NC is cos I think SIL may know I am on MN. Although not my name.

Molly yes I hope so

Ah, that does sound hopeful

I think the problem in the newborn days is that if things are tough, you both find yourself wanting support -- it's a lot harder than when just one of you is going through a tough time. What kind of famiy support do you have? Will you be able to afford a cleaner, babysitters, any other outsourced help?

You haven't answered my questions re maternity leave, whether you can both cut back hours, etc. I mean, obviously you don't have to! But just to say it's not all about the emotional issues, it's whether you have really planned out the practical options in a way that will be fair to both of you.

I'd be asking really specific questions, like: if things do get really hard, and you can't both continue working so much, who is going to make the sacrifice at work? Is it an option to move so his commute is shorter?

He must be a nice guy to do all that shopping and cooking, but children can require much deeper sacrifices -- is he willing to cut back at work, see friends less often, move house if necessary? These are the things you need to get a sense of now.

I like the innocence....

We treated all our dc the same way for sleeping. All were exclusively bf.

Dd1 slept through the night at 8 weeks. That's 12 hours through the night. If we went out she'd go to sleep later and still sleep 12 hours. She never slept less than 6 hours from birth, and never woke more than once (for about 30 minutes) even when ill. By about 9 months she slept 3 hours in the afternoon too.

Dd2 slept through from about 2 years. She typically woke twice during the night, although we did have the waking at 2am and going back to sleep at 7am. Never worked out why.

Ds slept through at 7 weeks, about 10 hours through the night. He then started on ear infections every 10 days or so and didn't sleep throuhg until he had grommets in at 20 months. Often the only way he'd sleep was being held upright in a chair with his ear egainst me, and even then he'd be moaning in pain while sleeping.

Dreaming sorry

I will cut back some hours, I am already planning this, and my dept has two other working mums with small DC who are allowed to leave early and make up time by working different patterns if their DC get sick etc.

DH company also quite family friendly. We have decided not to move as I am now very close to a good nursery and my work so thus I don't really have a commute to speak of and can be more flexible. If we moved we would likely be halfway between our jobs as we cannot afford to live near DH work (v pricey area) and we think it's better to be more 'grounded' near one person's work.

I will take 6 mos mat leave probably for financial reasons.

I think he will make sacrifices if they are really needed, as he already moved once a copule of years back to accommodate my job but I guess like most people I am hoping it doesn't get that extreme!!!

Oh also we have budgeted for a cleaner, as this is one luxury we can afford if we lose other things (no Sky etc) and we feel this will make life easier.

A cleaner is a godsend

Makes a massive difference to me as a working mother

You can try (and good luck to you), but however good the bedtime routine is, however well he goes to sleep you may still end up with a multiple waker like we did (yes DS, I'm looking at you!)
Some kids are good sleepers, and some very light sleepers - like adults really, and since both me and DH have sleep issues we can hardly expect DS to sleep 12 hours a night. Much as we may like him to

Yanbu. Very possible.

Don't underestimate how shattered you will be in the first few months though!

I'm also trying to persuade DH to get a cleaner but he keeps getting put off by his DM

I wouldn't worry too much in advance, honestly. You will deal with whatever is thrown at you because you have to, no plan this far in advance can know what kind of baby you are likely to have.

I have a 1yo, but don't know how to fix a sleep problem as she is a good sleeper, nor fix an eating problem as she eats like a horse. I do know better than some of my friends with 1yo's what it is like to have a very stubborn baby with opinions on things like gloves, shoes, people she takes a dislike to etc. and how to change a nappy standing up, sometimes whilst baby is walking. When I have number 2 I will start over learning how to deal with that baby and whichever bits are harder/easier than DD.

A lot of my friends had babies 6 months before me and I put together all the things they were finding hard and worried what I would do about them all. What a waste of energy, as useful as figuring out just now how I would get in and out of the bath if I broke my leg tomorrow. Take it as it comes and you will enjoy it so much more.

If you are not yet pregnant, I would suggest that you start saving like mad now so that you can afford more than 6 months maternity leave. You might find that you really don't want to go back to work that early, and would really appreciate the option of taking longer. Hormones are mad. I always assumed I would go back to work full time until 4 months into maternity leave when I realised that my priorities had changed entirely and I wanted to go part time. The more options you have open the better, and while people can and do go back to work full time after 6 months, the ones I've known to do it would have liked longer off and found it very difficult to leave their baby that young.

noble thanks, you may be right. Another issue BIL and SIL had is, they both worked before DN 1, and she was going to continue afterwards but then decided partway through mat leave she didn't want to after all.

I think it caused some pretty massive rows as he thought they could not afford for her to SAH. This may be another reason DH is antsy as he is on a limited income and my salary mostly pays the mortgage etc. I do save quite a bit so might work out how much it would cost to take 8 mos, 9 mos, 12 mos etc. Thanks.

I think there are lots of strategies you can use to help children sleep. I have concurred a very tricky sleeper by the age of about 2 1/2, having initially gone down a co sleeping route, just to get any sleep at all. As others have said it took absolute determination and dedication, followed up with rigid routine but with most kids the situation can be greatly improved.

I do think a small percentage of children are just very bad sleepers. Unlucky parents.

OP: you can certainly parent differently to your SIL / BIL.

You won't know what kind of effect it will have on your children. Or their sleep patterns.

The really important thing is : do you feel like you and DH will be facing having a child as a team, or do you feel you'll have to manage everything so as not to upset DH? You both seem to be second guessing each other - you wrt the sleep issues and him wrt being a SAHM. Why?

Some sleep. Some don't. In my opinion it makes no difference at all how you parent or what you do, you either have a sleeper or a non sleeper. They are babies, not robots.

It is possible to have children that sleep in their own beds all night. I have two, who both stayed in their own beds/bedrooms from the age of 6 months.

I am not smug enough to think that this is due to superior parenting and suspect I have just been lucky.

Don't worry too much about it all. The (massive) disruption that having children brings to your life is one of those things that look scary and terrible from the outside, but hardly noticeable once you are doing it. It is possible that your DP will stress even more when you get pregnant, but it will all work out when the baby arrives.

Some babies sleep no matter what you do, some improve with sleep training and some don't sleep at all, you'll cope (and that's my 19 months totally sleep deprived self talking! I was a 10 hours a night kind of person before!).

I guess it's the whole nature/nurture argument - and like with most things, it's both and sometimes more one than the other. Some kids naturally do sleep better than others - mine have certainly varied hugely, one slept through from 9 wks and one not til nearer 18months... But sometimes people set up habits that aren't particularly helpful, and i guess you can do what you can to avoid those - I can remember sometimes as a kid if I got up very early I'd get played with and sometimes not - and I can remember wondering which it would be on a particular day! Felt a bit bad about that once I had kids & knew about how some days my dad had to set off really really early for work & felt there was no point going back to bed after settling me so he'd play with me...).

With our dc1 I was very worried about lack of sleep and fully intended doing gina ford as I thought (naively and somewhat judgementally) that friends with babies that didn't sleep had, to some extent at least, 'caused' it (in a rod for their own backs type way). I then had a low birth weight baby and had no choice but to feed more frequently and for much longer than most! (I never did get her into the gf routine...).

I don't agree that your dh sounds like he's not ready for kids - unless that means I wasn't either- he just sounds like he's understandably worried by what he's seen other people experience.
I suppose my point is that, you may well have a dc that sleeps much better than your dns (they do sound much worse than average!), but if not you will (both) find ways of coping/dealing with whatever difficulties do arise in the ways that are best for you, which may well be different to your sil/bil in any case. I never thought I'd cope/put up with a dc that woke for several hrs a night and still commute for 1h15 to work - but surprisingly even I managed!

Yes you can parent so your children sleep, however anyone who says there children sleeps through 7-7 100% of the time is lying.
Kids get sick, or for a reason unknown to themselves decide to wake at 4 in the morning.
My DS slept really well until he was in a bed, then we had several years of extremely early waking - mostly after 5. Although we stressed it was "not getting up time" and put home back to bed.... Etc etc etc nothing worked - the. He just seemed to grow out of it, he's now 8 and sleeps in
Dd is 3 and has slept really well but is going through a patch of waking in the night- Shea a little unwell, really not sure if that's the reason or not.
So you can do everything possible - but still you will have disturbed nights sleep - it just goes with the territory

Why do you want children?
Why does he want children?

Do you actually, truly want them or just think "it's the right time" or "it's what people do"?

I honestly feel that you can make a difference to your childrens sleeping patterns.
I have 2 very different children - chalk and cheese, and have friends with a variety of personalities of children.
The consistent theme is that those who expected their children to sleep at night and made effort to make it happen - have children who generally sleep well.
Those who have a a gentler way of looking at it and being more understanding of what the child wants seem to have children with less predictable sleep patterns.
This is truly not judging either way of parenting, just that they are different and seem to have different outcomes.

Sometimes children wake up in night, but you can definitely mimimise the waking by teaching them that night time is sleep time. It can be hard though - my kids are good sleepers but we have been known to do controlled crying on occasion.

But as others say, sometimes the child is ill, or had a nightmare, and on these occasions sometimes easiest to take into your bed.

I dont think you ABU for thinking about things before you have children. The problem is that if the only experience you have of them is someone who does it differently than you want to it obviously gives you a limited knowledge.

I have one child who has always slept through the night with no trouble at all and one who goes to bed, falls asleep instantly and always sleeps through the night but has trouble actually falling asleep in the first place. Bedtime doesn't vary though - they are in bed wether they are asleep or not.

DH was late 40's when I fell pregnant for the first time. There is only him and his mum, he had no experience of children apart from my neices and nephews who we saw sporadically. He had his concerns also and ttc was more about me than him. He is a fantastic dad and has been from the moment he set eyes on them. Everything negative he might have felt went out of the window within hours. He needs 8 hours sleep but spent many hours walking around in the night with crying babies so I could sleep and was always the one who got up to them.

Try not to get too hung up on how you think it will be because chances are that it wont be anything like your thoughts.

I have one child who has always slept through the night with no trouble at all and one who goes to bed, falls asleep instantly and always sleeps through the night but has trouble actually falling asleep in the first place. Bedtime doesn't vary though - they are in bed wether they are asleep or not.

That should actually say:

I have one child who has goes to bed, falls alsleep instantly and always slept through the night with no trouble at all and one who goes to bed, sleeps through the night but has trouble actually falling asleep in the first place. Bedtime doesn't vary though - they are in bed wether they are asleep or not

I think it depends very much on the child.Having the child in the bed is a way for working parents to function!

Having children who sleep badly at night isn't just about poor parenting. Often it isn't and you do what you can to cope.

My DH was a bit worried about getting no sleep and never seeing each other because of our shift patterns before we had our DS. That didn't mean he wasn't ready for fatherhood, he's a brilliant dad and is going to be a SAHD as that makes the most sense for our situation. OP don't assume that he's not ready just because he's thinking about the potential negatives.

FWIW my DS is 8 months and still wakes once a night usually, but has a feed then goes back to sleep ok. I would just say go with the flow, don't get bogged down by a strict routine or you'll get stressed when it doesn't work! Good luck with ttc, maybe try and not worry too much about this stuff yet, you don't know what issues you'll face. Save your energy!

Like other posters, I think there are 'sleep hygiene habits' you can adopt to make an average baby a good sleeper.

Breastfeeding to sleep, co-sleeping, using a dummy etc are all things that I know contributed to my son's poor sleep (he was still waking 14 times a night at 1 year old). But my son was an unsettled baby and poor sleeper right from when he was born, so I had to adopt each of these strategies in order to survive. If I had been given a 'good' sleeper from the start, I wouldn't have needed to co-sleep, or bf to sleep, or use a dummy etc. So it's definitely a vicious circle. Yes, if your SIL returned her child to bed each time it woke, then she might eventually get a better sleeping child, but after the 15th time waking at 3 am, she is probably too knackered and emotionally fragile to cope with the child's distress. And so it continues.

OP I really hope you are successful as I wouldn't wish a non sleeping child on anyone.

I too WOH (as does DH). DD just doesn't seem to need sleep. Add in the fact I have chronic fatigue syndrome.... well you can guess.

But despite all that we survive, my body has adjusted (reluctantly) and whilst I do wish for more sleep DD is wonderful.

We do co sleep on the majority of nights but DD stays in her room (we moved her into a double bed)

Oh dear, I've been you, honestly, I had such firm ideas on other peoples slack parenting. Right up until the moment my son arrived. You may have to face a child with poor health, like us, or who doesn't need sleep or who hasnt read the manuals. Seriously if this is such an issue for DP and financially you couldn't survive without reduced hours or longer mat leave, just in case, then please do yourselves and your future child a favour- postpone ttc til you can.

I think it's strange how people think you can 'train' babies but nobody expects to be able to train adults.

Babies are people.

OP back briefly!
nightowl thanks, I think it is just that, he wants DC but he also loves our life together and feels we will never see one another and/or sleep again. I think he is exaggerating things as it's suddenly becoming very real after a couple of years of saving planning etc

fairee I do not think my Sil's parenting is slack!! Where did you get that? She is a lovely mum and her dc are very lucky, but I just don't think i could cope parenting the way she does and wanted to see if there is another way. i haven't read any manuals either! I don't think having worries before such a big change means we cannot have children or will be crap parents.

That is an interesting point Greythorne but I don't agree, adults are trained, I am 'trained' to respond to emails when I don't feel like it instead of reading MSN, and lots of other things. I think people are highly trained actually.

I am not talking about training like a dog btw, I am just wondering about the feasability of a routine/ structure. Maybe it won't work, who knows!

OP, I wasn't suggesting your SIL is slack, just that you are judging or measuring her methods, compared to your own ideal. I also didn't suggest you'd be a crap parent, and wish you all the very best when it happens. I did mean to infer though that you don't sound ready, if this is your main concern, and you couldnt cope with the unexpected. You will miss your old life, it won't ever be the same again. We are so lucky that we wouldn't swap our changed life for anything, regardless. It would be good if you knew you cou,d feel like that before ttc. Good luck when that time comes.

Lots of methods work for lots of people, you wait until you get the baby to see what will work for you, you prepare yourself for the worst, and hope for the best. I've got a non-sleeper who is now four and half years old, though this is being treated as a medical and behavioural issue and is being assessed for certain special needs.

It's not necessarily that simple.

I've not read the whole thread, but the thing I'd say is its amazing how little sleep you can get used to!
BC (before children) I was a 8+ solids hours of sleep a night kinda girl.

3.5 years in, with DC2 the sleeper, and DC1 most definitely not a sleeper, if I get a 4 hr block at some point in the night, and a couple more hours in there somewhere, I function to the point that I've got myself an internal new job, so they haven't seen me suffer.

Yes, you can parent differently to your SIL, and hope your kids learn to sleep, but nothing in this world is a given, but there are ways round things - if sleep has been tough, I go to bed really early, and DH stays up to deal with things up to midnight, and then sleeps in the spare room with earplugs to get sleep while I do the graveyard shift.

Go easy on the DH - I really do not cope with lack of sleep and it was the one thing that made me think I might decide never to have children. It genuinely terrified me. I did eventually bite the bullet though, because I wanted to be a mum so much. DS has not been a brilliant sleeper, but at 21 months now sleeps through 70% of the time. He's pretty much sorted himself out, we never did any CC or anything. Ironically cosleeping doesn't help as he is far less likely to sleep in with us. If he wakes in the night we give him milk and cuddle him back to sleep then put him in his cot. Sometimes I cry with the lack of sleep and I get very down but I do manage. And DS is such a joy.

To me you and your dh's concerns sound very very normal. Thinking about how you will cope with parenthood before trying for a baby is surely a very good idea, and shows commitment rather than immaturity or not readiness.

Many parents just feel a bit broody - I know that's why we decided to have our first. dh just had a vague sense that there was more to life than how things were and perhaps parenthood was the answer. Two weeks later we had a baby on the way

I would be really worried if my only close experience of parenthood was a family with children who didn't sleep. We had two years of very broken nights (16mths gap between our children) and it was fairly hellish, but I don't think I would have coped well at all with five. If that was what I thought having children would likely entail I probably would not have gone there. Ever!

In general thinking of the families I know I think on average most babies settle into relatively copable sleep patterns (i.e with a unbroken period of at least 6 hours) by about one. A small number struggle after that for a variety of reasons.

I'd look to see if you can socialise with a few more families so that you and your dh get more of a rounded picture. Some babies sleep through very early. Some are more settled than others. Parenting does come into that, especially with older children (ours learned that getting up in the night was unlikely to lead to much fun as dh sleeps through a fair bit of 'wake up Daddy' techniques and I'm like a bear with a sore head on waking).

There's that old adage about the biggest mistake going into marriage is thinking you will change your spouse. Yes, you can train someone to respond to emails or to run a marathon, but you can't change someone's nature. Nor can you change a baby's nature.

And I could not be trained to run a marathon!

I have three children. My boys came along first, and were good sleepers. My Daughter however is now 2yrs and still wakes up during the night, usually once or twice. I find myself lying beside her on the floor next to her cot for a good hour(maybe more) every night trying to get her back to sleep. I won't bring her into our bed, as she wouldn't go back to sleep, she would just want to play! So I just lie there until she drops off again, then I go back to bed and grab a couple more hours.

I have been a Mum for 15 yrs now, and I honestly can't think of another way of getting her back to sleep, so that's how it is for now, but it won't be forever. Like every phase they go through, you look back, and realise in the grand scheme of things , it really isn't for long.

I can totally understand why you are worrying about these sorts of things, as it's a massive decision when you decide to TTC, and lots of doubts and concerns creep in, it's only natural for you and your DH.

Life will change, and a new baby will bring lots of challenges for you both, but you WILL cope. You'll learn as you go, just like everyone does.

Everybody learns techniques that work for them, and don't forget your baby will be a little person with their own personality, and you'll love him/her so your instincts will kick in, and then you'll know what's right for you both.

I really hope you have a baby in 2013, as you sound like you will be a great Mum, and your DH sounds lovely too. Lucky baby

Lots of luck TTC

olive - eh? I was responding to faireenuff!

Greythorne you are right, you cannot change someone's nature - I am a worrier and always will be, my dsis is incredibly lively and that's just the way she is and so on. I guess I just meant, I hope my baby doesn't have a nature where they only want to sleep 3 hours per night!

nooka and fluffy, I was going to leave this thread, but just wanted to say bless you for your posts. They both mean a lot. I have been thinking about this for a long time, saving up to where i have my own house and have some money in the bank so my baby has security. I so badly want to watch my baby grow up and develop and say his or her first word and develop into their own little person. I don't want to control them, I just want to manage things right.

nooka you are quite right, I know several mums who have good sleepers so to me it seems like pot luck and you cope with what you get, DH only knows his BIL who has had 2 nightmare sleepers and I think deep down he thinks that is just what all children do.

Thank you both so much, those were lovely posts

Ime all dc sleep very differently and respond differently to different techniques. What works for one wont for others obviously. I do think though that in a family if they are all bad sleepers then it is parenting or extreme bad luck because mine are very different even though we have tried to do the same things.

People who parent in more of an attachment way sometimes have worse sleepers but my friends who are like this dont mind as they are happy with their choices and thats what its about. You just do what you feel is right and ignore what everyone else is doing.

You can tweak dc who dont naturally sleep well but you find yourself tweaking over and over again as everythings sets you back tostage one again, ie teething, illness, growing pains, night terrors and understandably some people just give it up as pointless and choose to wait it out.

I have one good sleeper, one not so good. I followed the baby whisperer to the letter with DS and he was a dream to put down to sleep and I thought I had it perfected. Along came DD and I tried exactly the same methods and she was having absolutely none of it, nothing that had worked with DS worked with her. She's 3.5 and still terrible to get to sleep and up once in the night.

I had a list of things I wouldn't do before I had kids that included no dummies and no kids in my bed. I did every single one of the things I had said I would not do. The reality was very different to how I had imagined it. I would refrain from making any assertions about what you will and won't do and definitely don't voice any to anyone!!

Mine is only 8 months old, but I knew what I wanted from him in terms of sleep way before he was born.

I am not happy with constant co-sleeping, and I want a consistent amouth of sleep. Our bed is for us, me and my OH, not for children. But I think that because I knew want I wanted from the beginning made it a lot easier. He may only be 8 months, but he knows what his room is for, he knows what 'night night daddy' means. Sure we've had (and are currently having) problems with sleep and teething/illness/growth spurts etc, but I've stuck to my guns and within a few days everything returns to normal.

Obviously, my LO can't walk yet, so I may be eating my words in a few months!!

Visualise you were blessed with a settled baby I bet.

Some babies have issues that make sleep tricky to say the least. It's not all down to the parent.

visualise whatever you do don't have another baby... you may realise how lucky you were first time round

I think you can only do the best you can and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. DD wasn't a great sleeper initially and I think she just took longer to get it than some other kids. On the other hand, she's always been brilliant at staying with other people, being left at childcare and generally being carted around with DH & I.

DD didn't sleep through the night (every night) until she was 18mo. Since then she's been really great though. However, she's now 3yo and starting to have bad dreams or things worrying her, so she sometimes wakes in the night for reassurance.

So... you can read all the books and have all the techniques in place but you can't guarantee anything

Haha, yes he is a very settled baby, and took to the GF routine like he'd read the book.

we were like you too once. we even did really well the first year or so.

resign yourself to bring permanently knackered for years to come, and hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised

Your dc will be unique, your parenting will be unique. They may sleep they may not but what they will do is be totally amazing so you'll suck it up and get on with it and hopefully love every minute. Like op said sleep is just one issue out of a thousand so don't stress.

I have 2. The eldest slept beautifully from an early age. The younger, parented in exactly the same way didn't sleep a full night until they started school, and still to this day doesn't need much sleep.

There are no guarantees and generally, babies haven't read the parenting manuals

I personally think bad sleepers after two years old are the exception rather than the norm. My (special needs) three year old has the odd night now and then where she's up (and bringing her into bed does not help in the slightest) but basically sleeps from eight thirty to seven thirty or so and then plays in her room untl we get her up. My typical nearly two year old has a rough night once or twice a month, but otherwise gives us twelve hours unbroken. We cosleep until they were five months old and then put them in their own room if you're interested, but I don't think it makes much of a difference how you parent them.

Hmm - well you're probably overthinking it...... but then again, I remember reading "the baby Whisperer" who advocated the "EASY" method of life with a newborn baby (Eat, activity, slepp.... YOU time, on a 3 hour repeat). Well, that sounds lovely I thought, a bit tiring maybe, but lovely!

6 years, 2 children later and many many many nights of 2/3 hours broken sleep later, tons of co-sleeping (I'd never really heard of THAT before, and remembering thinking it was really weird when a friend mentioned she did it!!!!)

My dh (now ex!) also spoke about how he didn't want his life to change..... actually his life didn't change! He rarely got up (didn't stop him pontificating at length about how bad sleep deprivation was to anyone who'd listen!), slept in the spare room while I got up/ coslept/ looked after my kids (both quite poorly as babies)

I guess I agree that you don't know what lies around the corner. My own sleep deprivation days are nearly over really. Do I regret co-sleeping/ going to my children in the night/ putting up with night after night of virtually no sleep while holding down a near full time job/ leaving my awful ex..... not a bit

My personal view is that you can certainly avoid common sleep problems by "training" your children in certain ways. For example, if you leave them to cry it out often enough, they will soon learn that nobody comes and it isn't worth it. However, I suspect that people who choose to parent in this way are merely storing up different problems for themselves in the years to come.

As a FT working parent, I found that the easiest way of dealing with my own poor sleeper was to co-sleep. To recognise that she needed parenting in the night as well as in the day, and that it wasn't all about me any more. It wasn't what I'd planned, but it worked and we coped. Do I regret responding to her needs in those early years? No, not at all. So much of parenting is about following your instincts, and it felt right at the time.

You can't know how you're going to do it, OP, until you meet your own child and start to understand their needs. However, best go in with your eyes wide open - serious disruption is inevitable!

Hey OP, I haven't slept for longer than four hours at a time since my DD was born in....April.

Yay!

I have two children who are/were bad sleepers, I was a bad sleeper. Presumably your sil gets more sleep by bringing them into her bed, keeping them in their room wont make them sleep.My MIL would have been stricter than I am, she didn't agree with co-sleeping, but she still talks about SIL being a terrible sleeper who wouldn't sleep well. I think it's mainly down to luck. One thing about mine, though, is that lthough they are hard to settle and would wake during the night, they never woke early. But some people have children who wake terrible early, no matter what they o.

If you have a long period of disturbed nights, you do get used to it and for me, co-sleeping did help as I was much less disturbed than I would have been. I was still getting a decent number of hours sleep, although it was interrupted. But tiredness is inevitable with babies nd young dc no matter how well they sleep.

I think, barring SN or disability/illness that by 2 and 5 it's not unreasonable to expect children to understand night is for sleeping and that getting up and wanting to play with Mum or Dad in the middle of the night is not on. So, I do think that is a parenting choice. But agree with PP that said until teething is over you have to expect broken nights. DD2 was a 'good' sleeper who had obviously read all the books but whenever she had a tooth coming in then we'd have a week of broken nights when all she wanted to do was nurse for hours and hours. Oh, and potty training gives you some broken nights as well but they tend to be of the 'get up and take to the loo then back to bed' or (at worst) get up, change all sheets on child's bed, shower child, then back to bed. That's not going to convince your OH though is it!

No one can prepare you for how awful the sleep deprivation is in the early days. It is horrific. Honestly, I do not wish to scare anyone but the sleep deprivation was way worse than the labour pain for me!

But Id say that in most cases it does get better as the months go on. My DD started to sleep all night from 8pm-5am from 11 months old. Now aged 2.8 she sleeps all night from 8pm-6am I'd say maybe 80/90% of the time.

And you do get used to surviving on 4-5 hours sleep at night. Even if you work. You just have to get on with it.

I do believe that there are some things that you can do to influence a childs sleep though - we have always had a great bedtime routine which we have stuck to almost every night for the past 2.8 years. There will be exceptios to this - some babies/toddlers just do not sleep well. However, most will respon well to good routines and boundaries.

Re. co-sleeping, Im not a huge fan as I dont sleep well when my DD is in bed with me (even though she was breastfed till she was 2.5, I preferred to get out of my bed during the night). However, there have been many nights when my DD has woken up upset and we have plonked her in beside us for a cuddle - when your tired you will do anything for a bit of sleep. If your SIL is allowing her children to come in to bed with her and play games/sing/chatter during the night then she is crazy!!! However, what works for some....

Jin I agree with your post - OP sleep training is an option and usually does work. I dont like controlled crying but have a lot of friends who used this and had success with it in terms of their DC sleeping better. We decided not to let my DD cry, we found it just caused us all to be upset (I tried it once for 23 minutes. I think by the end I was crying more than my DD). I loved Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solutions.

All children are different, you really can't pre-empt how they will sleep.

I have 2 dd's. Dd1 sort of fell into her own routine, slept through at 5 months and never looked back, even now as a 15 year old she can sleep through anything.

dd2 was actually settled into a routine quite early, purely because she had to fit in with all the routines that we had already with work and school. She slept brilliantly from about 4 months right up until she as about 18 months/2 years old, then she started waking through the night.

If she was up before I was in bed I'd take her back to her own bed but if it was the middle of the night I would just take her into bed with me. Life is too short for faffing about all night taking your child backwards and forwards to their own bed. If you have to get up in the morning and go to work you will take them into your own bed so you can all get some sleep.

dd2 is 8 now and sleeps through the night perfectly well, I look on it as a phase that she grew out of.

I can see where you are coming from, I stayed with my sister for a night whilst heavily pregnant and was horrified (and exhausted ahead of a long drive home) that her children, aged 5,6 and 9 didn't sleep much, they were running around, up and down the stairs at 0545 on a Sunday morning, the youngest woke my sister up at 3am to tell her that "teddy had fallen out of bed"! My sister and husband treated this as normal and didn't make any attempt whatsoever to get the children back to bed. I have spoke to friends and stayed with other families where that kind of behaviour wouldn't be tolerated, their children are taught when it is acceptable to get up and play, also when to go into their parents room, using light, heating or other methods of making the children aware of what time it is. When they are young, away from home/routine or poorly then of course things are different but as a parent you can do a lot to help yourself. My sister doesn't seem to care.

Her 9 year old didnt sleep through the night until he was 15 months old but my ten week old is sleeping 7-8 hours at night. Whilst I appreciate that every child if different I think that parenting techniques can make a huge difference. Being laid back (babies are very aware of anxiety) and following routines help (we woke baby if she slept through a feed time in the day but not at night). Good luck with TTC, it took me a year and I am loving every minute of it!

Another Gf-er (with dc1) and variations with Dc2 and Dc3...

Dc1 = 12 hours a night + 3 hours in the day from 11 weeks
Dc2 = hourly wake up calls (Gf abandoned) till 8 months when he was diagnosed with silent reflux. Medication+ routine saw him sleeping 12 hours straight from 11 months od.
Dc3 = 12 hours at night and a few hours in the day from 10 weeks old. She spent a month in hospital from 5 weeks old - where she was institutionalised on scheduled feeding pattern, so sleeping through was a natural progression. Shame that I couldn't sleep peacefully until she was 6 months old because I was terrified she would die in the night having been critically ill with respiratory failure/illness.....

Guess it shows that you deal with what you are given :-)

I think a lot of it is down to the baby tbh. DS is a good sleeper, he's just turned 1 and sleeps from 7pm-7am, if he's ill or teething he will take ages to settle at night and generally wake up earlier.

One thing we did from the start though is to do all night feeds in as much darkness as possible and minimal talking etc so he knew the difference between night and day. I think this helped.

Another thing I think helped was not getting up at the first cry, sometimes he would cry for a minute or two and then fall fast asleep by himself.

Anyway, you won know until the baby arrives, but personally I dont think there's anything wrong in having ideas and plans before the baby arrives, just be prepared to adapt.

I don't think you are being completely niave - you've seen some parenting around you and already decided that you don't want to emulate that. You just have to remember that you might have aims and goals, and it's not a bad idea to agree these ahead (i.e. you both agree a good sleep routine is important) but remember, the baby you get is the baby you get.

DH and I work full-time, have to drive etc. We've been absolutely religious about sleep routines. At 7.30 every night, it's bath then final feed in the near dark by the cot, down to bed. We don't talk much/speak softly when its night time, make every effort to demonstrate that night is different from day. If DS doesn't just nod off (which most the time he does now) then it's just a bit of patting and shushing. If he ever wakes in the night now, it's just some more patting and shushing without getting him up. We had a bed nest when he was little so between feeds he went back into his own cot and he's been in his own room since 6 months. We try to be very consistent through disturbed spells due to growth spurts /teething. This has worked for us -at 16 months he consistently sleeps for 12 hours at night and has a 2-3 hr nap each day. BUT, honestly I think our "success" has been 50% us and our routine and 50% the child he is -he likes to sleep. Sleep habits can be heritable -I like to sleep too and am a 9-10 hour person rather than the average 8 hours.

So I guess what I'm saying is have a plan, talk to your partner about how you'd do things but remember the hugely unpredictable factor that is your (potential) baby.

Oh, and the final thing is that having children is bloody exhausting. Even if they sleep 12 hours each night. Once you have one you are going to know tiredness like you've never known it before.

I can understand why the OP's DH is focusing on the sleep aspect. My BIL and SIL have a child who is difficult about sleeping, doesn't sound quite as bad as the OPs but not far off. It is something they talk about a lot as it impacts on their quality of life. If you don't have kids and your brother has one that doesn't sleep and talks about the downsides a lot, then that is the majority of what your DH hears about children. He will find it difficult to look at the positives.

I didn't know what I was getting into first time round, that is normal so don't feel bad about asking the question OP. I've always wondered about my DN, how much was him not being a good sleeper and how much down to not have a proper routine in place. Before anyone flames me, when he was little he didn't have a set bedtime, was up with the adults in the evening, every evening so why would he want to go to sleep? It has settled down now with a bedtime routine, but he still have bad nights / phases and he is now 4. I think that he is just a child who finds it difficult to sleep.

With DS1 we made the beginners mistake of always feeding him to sleep / rocking him to sleep and then at about 12 months we decided to try to sleep train and give him different cues to go to sleep, we did a mixture of the ssh / pat / crying routine. He is now a great sleeper and was from 18 months. We went on to have twins, they are now two, they are good sleepers, DTD1 is great, from 7.30 pm to 7.30 am. DTS a bit more tricky but both of them get themselves off to sleep. They learned to self settle from the word go, because there was no way I could rock two babies to sleep. However, I think that I am really lucky with them, they are good sleepers and I helped them along

Good luck, remember they are fun, everything is just a phase and pick your battles.

I think there are lots of wise words about choosing to prioritise sleep training; that's certainly possible, and knowing that it still might not work; also very possible.

But I'm also picking up, I think, that you're taking on the role of managing your dh's worries, looking for reassurances to present to him, etc? Id advise you not to take that on as a job for yourself, I think that could end up being as stressful as anything else, if (when) things are hard and there's a bit of 'I told you it would be like this, you said it would be ok,' iykwim?

I actually think you're being wise to think about how you want to do this ahead of time, and you sound as realistic as anyone can be who hasn't had dcs about how it might be. And quite lovely. But I think it would be a good idea to also say to your dh 'we can decide that we'd like to do it like this, and it might well help. but there will be huge disruption, we will lose sleep, sometimes it might feel like as much as we can bear. Knowing that, do you still want to do this?'. It just feels like it sets a bit of an equal intention between you, does that make sense? Rather than it being your job to make it manageable for him.

Bunbaker: I'm inclined to think that those parents who think their parenting has made their children sleep through from an early age have never had a baby that just won't go to sleep. Same as those parents who have children who aren't fussy eaters - they have never had to deal with a very fussy eater. In their minds these children don't exist, just useless parenting.

^^
This. With bells on.

living with your own children is nothing like looking at a family situation from the outside. i distinctly (sp?) remember telling my then-husband that the baby would fit in with us, there would be no need for things to change.

hmm.

after the baby was born, i learnt a lot.

I personally think its about teaching children to go back to sleep on their own when they wake in the night. If they can do that you have cracked it. But you do need to think about this from the beginning and it's probably an opposite method of parenting than co-sleeping. We went for own bedroom from early age and also the boys shared which has helped.

Blueberry, Glimmer, Sarah - yes, I think you are all right.

Basically DH had no contact with children really and like most blokes was a bit oblivious to them. Then DN1 came along and he thought she was the most amazing thing ever BUT then whenever he stayed with BIL it was all 'I only got 2.5 hours of sleep last night' and then the whole thing where SIL announced she was not returning to work and poor BIL felt like everything was on him.

It wasn't of course and they survived, and DH doesn't think I will do that. But I think it is his only model of being a parent and it does sort of scare him.

Actually post it is funny you say that, I had that very convo with him last night in bed after this thread, and he basically I won't lie, I am scared about aspects of it, but I committed to having children with you and I will do my level best to be a good father.

I don't think you can say fairer than that really. And in some ways I'd rather he go into it like that and be pleasantly surprised than be like my own dad who didn't even know what a nappy was.

Also lots of good tips here like Cheung's so thanks for that, I may save this thread for pointers if we get lucky

Also I should be clear, SIL doesn't co sleep, at least not as understand that term.

The girls have their own beds in their own room but they find it hard to settle and then one or other is up all the time which wakes the other up. So one will be talking and the other can't get to sleep, then one gets out of bed and starts peeping round the door, then the other gets up too, then SIL settles them again but at 1am it's 'Mummy I can't go sleep' again so she tucks them up for a cuddle with her.

But as often as not she just gets up with them as BIL wakes up then. So it is not uncommon for them to be downstairs playing, watching a DVD at 4am as they simply won't go back to bed.

SIL is a good mum, her girls are lovely and polite and ahead for their age, I think they just are not good sleepers and I wonder if it's possible to invest in making a child a better sleeper within their own 'sleep range' iyswim. Sounds in many but not all cases it is, which is heartening.

No, you can't really say fairer than that. I think more people should have those conversations!

I think it's normal to worry about babies' sleeping if you see another family struggling with it. But as a PP said, when you're in it, you just go with it.

I always needed 10 hours a night. Then along came DS. Who slept fairly well until he hit 4 months. Then it was awful. I often cried from exhaustion, but I did get through it.

Finally, at 12 months, he got officially diagnosed with reflux and was given meds which actually work. They have made a huge difference to his sleep and although he still wakes once a night, unless he is ill or teething, it's very easy to get him back down again.

However, you do need to find what works for you. I had few fixed ideas but did say that co-sleeping was not for me. At 8 months I caved in because I was back at work and really needed more sleep. We co-slept most nights (to help combat exhaustion) until DS was 11 months then he went back in his cot and stayed there except for the other night when he had a really high temperature and ended up in bed with me cos I wanted to keep an eye on him

Looking back over the last 15 months I honestly don't think I could have parented DS better for him to sleep better. He just isn't a good sleeper and with his reflux, he was often in pain so waking up. In fact, I'm glad I did parent him like I did (always going in to him, not doing CC etc.) because when we got the reflux diagnosis I knew that this is what was causing the sleep problems - not my parenting.

My DS doesn't wake up because he wants to play or to be naughty. He wants to sleep, he just can't for whatever reason.

Just one more thing to throw into the mix, OP, which is worth bearing in mind. As stated on here, some parents are very rigid about their bedtime routines etc, and that may well help them to establish good sleep patterns. However, from what I have observed, it also robs them of any flexibility or spontaneity, as they become slaves to their routines. We have been much more laid back about stuff like that, and while dd isn't the best sleeper ever, she is one of the most portable, adaptable kids I know.

Of course, there are always happy mediums, but it's worth bearing in mind that you have to prioritise what you want. If you make choices about one aspect of your parenting, chances are it will impact on something else as well, and not necessarily as intended. Ultimately, what it boils down to is the fact that there is no universal "right" way of doing things, just what is "right" for your family and for the kind of relationship that you want with your children.

oh and I think sleep is a very visible "problem" to outsiders. In my group of friends there have been a variety of problems:

unable to breastfeed,
diagnosed as failure to thrive,
refusing bottles/sippy cups/cups/spoons
refusing solids,
bad sleeping,
reflux,
late crawling/walking,

and I'm sure there'll be more as the babies get older. However, the most common question is "how does the baby sleep?" so that problem gets talked about a lot more than the other problems!

I remember my friend asking me how on earth I got DS to accept a spoon but I looked blankly at her because he just did. Whereas her DD refused point blank.

OP

not read the entire thread,but not all babies/kids waske up in the night all the time.

some do,some dont,could depend on parenting or maybe thats just the way somekids are.

I have 4 kids and i dont think any of them have ever woken in the night (except for feeds in the very early days and if they were ill which has also been rare)

I do/have breastfed on demand (lying down during thenight)and co slept with all of them though,which i think is a big part of it.Obviously there must be kids who were in cots from day one who did the same but for me personally i found co sleeping easier(and lovelier)

just thought I would say I didn't plan on a child with severe special needs and no routine would make her sleep through. In fact I have to be awake and give her close supervision when ever she is awake as she will harm herself. Being strict or controlled crying won't change that ( she doesn't actually cry just wanders quietly). But I will say whatever sort of person your child is you will manage even if it is on 2 hours sleep

I was lucky with my 3dc sleeping. They all slept through a short night, for example 11 to 6 at seven weeks and were sleeping 12 hours a night at 12 weeks. I did the night feeds in the early weeks in darkness apart from a plug in night light and only changed nappies if really essential. Day time sleeps were downstairs in noisy, busy, bright rooms. I also either did a double feed in the evening or for dc3 (who got sick a lot) a big gap between the last 2 feeds so he drank a lot before his big sleep.

Hiya, one thought - have you asked your mum or DH's mum what kind of a sleeper you were? If you or he were legendarily bad then I wouldn't hold my breath...

Well, I don't think you are being entirely unreasonable. I found, when pregnant with my eldest, that people were keen to tell me that I would not sleep for two years, the baby would cry all night, etc. I can happily say that sleep problems are NOT inevitable.

DS1 slept for twelve hours from 11 weeks on nothing but breastmilk (and was no trouble before that, just a quick night feed). He went down asleep and we didn't hear from him til morning, unless he was ill - which was rare. We were lucky, but we did do things that helped - good bedtime routine, put down awake, night feeds kept quiet and boring.

DS2, despite doing all the same things, is not so great. His usual wake up time is 4am, and it kills me to start my day then so we shush and pat and sometimes bring him into our bed so he will doze off. 70% of the time, he goes down awake and falls asleep alone, the other 30% we are shushing and patting for a while. There seems to be no reason why he will go to sleep alone some nights and not
others. Illness will really disturb his sleep and he's ill much more than DS1.

You can do things to help, but a lot of it is luck.

If your SIL's kids are up watching DVDs at 4am it's pretty obvious why they keep getting up then! WWYD aged 5?!

It's true what others have said that you get the children you're given, but you can definitely use techniques to get the best sleep out of your kids that they're capable of, if that's what you choose to prioritise as a parent. Sounds like BIL and SIL have lost their way a bit, probably through exhaustion.

We parented our 2 ds the same way as each other, and ds1was terrible as a baby while ds2 is quite good. Temperament matters hugely. We're probably at the stricter end of the spectrum and used sleep training on ds1 which mean he now consistently sleeps through until after 7am aged 2. But that was our choice because without sleep I turned out to be someone who couldn't stop crying and couldn't function and it was affecting how I could look after him.

From our experience I'd say that absent any illness or SN issues, you really shouldn't need to be up all night for years. But just be flexible and see what happens. Good luck TTC.

Just out of interest, how supportive is your BIL? Because its sounding like their issue is that not disturbing him is more important than the children learning to sleep though (or at least lie quietly in their beds). It just seems odd that he's the one complaining about sleep deprivation whilst she is up all night with the children.

Oh, and the 5 year old can use a TV remote. No reason for SIL to be up just because they are. I bet if she put a safety gate over the 2yo's door and left them to play they'd soon stop getting out of bed.

One other thing's for sure with kids though - your definition of a lie-in will change forever....

Jinsei Wed 02-Jan-13 14:21:21

"Of course, there are always happy mediums, but it's worth bearing in mind that you have to prioritise what you want. If you make choices about one aspect of your parenting, chances are it will impact on something else as well, and not necessarily as intended."

Very wise point here. We also prioritised portability- not much of a choice really as all relatives live a long way away and we had to be prepared to travel and stay in other people's houses. We had other friends whose children grew up so inflexible that they couldn't even stay out half an hour over teatime by the time the child was 3 as child had to have tea at exactly the same time in her own house. Would never have worked for us, but suited them.

Ds and ds1 sleep in their beds just fine, and have since about 10 months.

Ds2 (age3) sleeps fine in his bed until about 1am when he invariably gets in our bed. But he's stealthy, smells lovely and isn't much of a wriggler AND we have a huge bed. So that doesn't really interfere with our sleep. He co slept until he was about 14 months and my goodness, was bliss compared with ds1 and dd n terms of how rested I felt. Night feeds were a doodle. The older two just never really settled in our bed, strangely. They'd kick and wriggle and we'd wake them up and vice versa. Whereas ds2 has always settled best (in the bed he was born in too, which is spooky now I think about it).

Anyway - I suppose others would say ds2 is wakeful, in as much as he tends to arrive n our room at some point. But is only awake for as long as it takes him to get up the stairs. Ds1 is 7 and finds getting off to sleep tougher now he's older and more to think about. But he potters in his room and is no bother. Dd is 9 and similar, she reads and listens to Harry potter cd until she drops off.

I don't think that having a fixed bedtime routine means a lack of flexibility. All my children had a fixed bedtime when they were younger, TBH having the DTs both kicking off at the same time because they were tired was something I avoided, it just wasn't worth it. We have taken all three away and stayed with relatives. I found that once a good bedtime routine is established it stayed in place no matter where they were. As they have got older, they are now 2 1/2 and DS 6 we can flex it a lot, teatimes and bedtimes. As your child grows his / her routine will change anyway.

I have one very good sleeper who is always in their own bed and sleeps very soundly. And I have one appallingly bad sleeper who spends more time awake than asleep. Interstingly, it is the bad sleeper who is always bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at 6am when my alarm goes off.

So I'm not sure different parenting styles will provide all the answers to sleep issues.

I didn't sleep for more than a couple of hours at a time until I was over 2 yo...no matter what my parents tried. I also hit maximum at 6 hours per night unless I was ill, to this day I only need 6 hours sleep (I've never had issues with tiredness/concentration/etc because of it either) - although I don't do well when my sleep is disturbed.