PIL dog - advice please

(267 Posts)
MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:19:03

We're currently visiting the in laws for Xmas an their dog has just gone for me, u bent downto give him a sausage and he went for my face - punctured my eyelid and caused a blood blister and a lot of bruising - I'll be getting one of them to take me to the doctor tomorrow morning, they're very rural, and everyone has had a bit too much to drink, so cannot drive.

This in itself is bad enough, but the dog shortly after snapped at dd and hurt her hand - he did not draw blood, but obviously scared her.

My question is how do I handle this - in laws are brushing it under the carpet - I've not been able to speak to DP alone since it happened. But I just want to leave, I am worried about going to the doctor, will I have to report the dog? It's not the first time he's had a go at me, but it is the first time he's made contact.

I'm kind of scared of the dog an can't stand being around it or even have DD in the same room - and I'm normally a massive dog person.

Aside from a banging headache I'm ok, I've cleaned it up and taken some ibuprofen, it's a bit swollen and bruised but I think it'll be ok.

Any ideas on how to handle this?

kinkyfuckery Fri 28-Dec-12 20:20:26

Oh my goodness, I wouldn't be happy at all, two attacks in one go - has the dog ever been aggressive before that you know of? What is your partner saying about it?

Chottie Fri 28-Dec-12 20:24:02

I would be out of there by now with DD. I don't have any dog experience, but I would not be giving that dog another opportunity to have a go at either myself or DD.

I would go to the doctor and get checked out. Tell him what happened too.

LittleMissNorty Fri 28-Dec-12 20:24:34

I would not be in the same room as the dog without one of them being present to control it hmm and I would openly, in front of them, tell any of my DC's they are not allowed anywhere near it.

DontmindifIdo Fri 28-Dec-12 20:27:05

Report the dog! If it had done the same thing to your DD how would you feel?

Tell your DH you want to leave after seeing the Doctor (take DD with you to the doctors, do not leave her with that dog) and refuse to return when that dangerous dog is there. How DH tells his parents this is his problem.

WelshMaenad Fri 28-Dec-12 20:27:38

The dog needs to be locked away. I would be making plans to leave ASAP and not be returning unless the issue is properly dealt with.

Can you get a taxi to a minor injuries or a&e? I really think any injury to the eye needs to be seen ASAP.

PartridgeInASpicyPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 20:27:43

I'm a doggy person and if they were not prepared to separate the dog I would be leaving. I don't understand their approach at all - the dog is clearly not happy either!

SantasENormaSnob Fri 28-Dec-12 20:28:05

What dontmind said.

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:28:06

He's been aggressive towards me - but more posturing than actual aggression - he's never bitten before as far as I know.

DP is avoiding being alone with me, and I dont want to raise it in front of everyone as te relationship with the PIL's is strained enough already

eltsihT Fri 28-Dec-12 20:29:31

My granny's dog bit my son on the side of his head when he was 9 months old. Granny and dog are old and a bit crabby, we had been watching my son and dog v carefully and it just happened, luckily no scaring but needless to say dog and son were not and have not been in the same room since. I didn't feel I could report her or the dog, i love her and she love the dog it's really all that keeps her going.

the incident happened over a year ago and I still keep dog and son very much apart, my granny has also not had the dog in the same room as a toddler/baby since so I don't feel I was wrong not reporting it.

Dog bite don't tend to lead to infections so I am sure you will be ok, just do what you feel is right in your heart.

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:30:17

Sadly the hospital is over an hour away and I don't drive, I really want to leave - but I dont think DP will want to leave.

May look at catching a train home with DD tomorrow.

cathpip Fri 28-Dec-12 20:33:57

The dog should be put away in another room and not allowed near people it is not that familiar with. With xmas and lots of people drinking its safer that the dog be somewhere quiet. I would have stern words with your pil's about the dog and esp your dd, this dog is capable of doing a lot of damage and if they make no efforts to control it tell them you will report it and you will not be visiting till dog is controlled safely, am furious for you, seriously bad dog ownership on your pil's part.

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:34:15

That's the problem if he'd done this to DD - it would be no question, I would demand we went to A&E and left, as its me, I just feel I have to turn a blind eye for the sake of the in laws

FWIW - dd was not Lone with dog when it happened, FiL was in the room and I was across the room. DD was throwing the ball for the other dog, and this dog just snapped at her empty hand, it covered about a metre in a fraction of a second

WelshMaenad Fri 28-Dec-12 20:34:42

Fuck what he wants, you and your child have both been attacked by their dog! Is there not a friend or neighbour who can take you tonight to be seen? I'm concerned about the risk if infection in your eye. Where are you?

I would get out if there as soon as you can by whatever means possible if they are not taking this seriously.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 20:35:18

Poor thing. I agree with dontmindifido. How bloody annoying that no one is takIng this seriously. Get out, keepdc away from dog (avoid being on the news as the family who's dog had never attacked a child before now...) and have dh talk to your PILs.

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:36:29

Entirely agree on the bad ownership - dogs have had no training and on a previous visit to us, when I kicked dog to remove it from my cat who it ha pinned on the ground and taken a bite out of, I was told the dog was just playing and not to overact.

Definitely will not be returning or having them over with dogs until this is resolved
Just so cross

Sargesaweyes Fri 28-Dec-12 20:37:41

This happened to me yesterday! I love dp's family but they have blind love for their fox terrier. The dog was excited when we arrived and bit my bloody lip as I bent down to take my shoes off! I started crying as it fecking hurt but nobody seemed that concerned. I am very reluctant to let ds stay over because of the dog which is a shame but I won't risk it. I have 2 dogs of my own and I watch both of them like hawks even though they are absolutely gorgeous and soft.

BoerWarKids Fri 28-Dec-12 20:38:38

I love dogs and I'm horrified by this, OP!

I can't believe your PIL are pushing it under the carpet, it could be your DD with a bleeding, punctured eyelid shock

I think you should leave with your DD as soon as you possibly can.

At some point you need to raise this issue with PIL, but right now, get medical attention.

Hope you're ok x

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:39:32

DD is in bed, and I'm in the room next door - on my phone (hence the awful typing) my eye is a bit sore, but mainly just have a headache which means I can't stand the noise Of the telly.

Dogs are unable to get into the rooms - although tempted to stay with DD tonight just to be sure

phantomnamechanger Fri 28-Dec-12 20:40:04

children should not be left alone with dogs, NOT EVER, especially visiting children who are invading a dogs territory when they are not used to kids.

I saw a story about a bay being killed by a terrier, family pet, a few weeks ago, bloody awful.

you cannot risk anything else happening for the sake of not wanting to hurt these peoples feelings about their dog - it is a pet and yes they love it, but they have to put people first.

My parents have a year old dog - shes a softie and loves the DC - but we would NEVER leave them alone with the dog even for a minute, and if she ever went for one of us, that would be it - i would just say we were not preared to visit unless the dog was locked in another room or the garden for the duration.

How are the owners reacting to all this - are they trying to play it down and make excuses for the dog, or are they horrified and dealing responsibly with this unacceptable behaviour??

dwagdays Fri 28-Dec-12 20:40:06

The dog can do what it wants in its own home, you won't be asked to report it. I can see you might not want to as things are fraught.

However, don't leave your dd in the same room as the dog. Don't leave her with the grandparents or dp if you think they will. I love dogs but this is a dangerous situation. Any vet or behaviourist would say the same.

Sorry you haven't got your dp as a support. Sounds horrid.

peaceandlovebunny Fri 28-Dec-12 20:41:45

keep out of the dog's way. it needs puttting down but that probably won't happen.

WelshMaenad Fri 28-Dec-12 20:42:00

Please promise you will be at a hospital or walk in type centre first thing? I'm worried about that eye. I don't suppose you're in the south-to-mid Wales area? If you are I will come and get you!!

mrslaughan Fri 28-Dec-12 20:42:02

I am a dog lover - but that is agressive behaviour and completely unacceptable. This not a case of dog being teased.

Dog needs to be either PTS (I am sure that suggestion would go down like a cup of cold sick) or out of house for duration of your visit, no contact with DD, and I would say you.

If they weren't prepared to accept that I would leave....actually I would not stay in a house with a dog like that - and I grew up on farms with dogs, my whole life. That dog see's itself further up the pecking order of the "pack" (family) than you and DD - and that is dangerous.

Scars from dog bites/attacks can be horrendous.

your DP is being an arse - not so dear.......

I don't know what the laws are in UK, but in NZ if you complained to authorities about a dog doing that to you it would be PTS - PIL wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

BoerWarKids Fri 28-Dec-12 20:42:15

Why is your DP avoiding you?

In my family a dog that bit (broke skin) unprovoked would be put down (or at a push rehomed). Obviously you can't make them put the dog down, but I would make it clear that none of you will be in the room/house again with the dog there.

For tonight I would get a cab to A&E to have the dog bite looked at (it is likely to get infected as dog saliva is full of bacteria) and close to the eye is a massive risk. Call a cab and if you don't have cash then you can check that they will take a card. Take DD with you.

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:47:09

So sorry to hear that Sarge - it hurts like hell doesn't it - think I'm going to try and get some sleep. This headache is just getting worse

Thanks so much for all the advice have bee putting bits in bags and will speak to DP tomorrow morning and explain either we all leave, or DD and I will be going on our own.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 20:47:39

Yes, defo get some medical advice/ attention for your poor eye.
Cannot understand the protectiveness ppl have towards offending dog!!!

MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour Fri 28-Dec-12 20:48:04

You need to leave ASAP and you need to tell your 'D'P to man up and stop being such a twat

The entire time your DP and pils are sweeping this under the carpet your dd is in danger from the dog, they are all behaving like a bunch of selfish arseholes

I hope you feel better soon, what an awful thing to happen

WelshMaenad Fri 28-Dec-12 20:48:52

Good for you. Please stick to your guns.

If you find time please cone back and update so we know you're ok.

DontmindifIdo Fri 28-Dec-12 20:51:36

i think you should get it looked at. Can you call a taxi? Go downstairs, say to DP infront of PIL that your eye is bad and you need ot go to A&E. Get DD out of bed and take her too - tell your DP you don't trust the dog in the same house as her. Then make it clear you are leaving in the morning, and not coming back.

I can't believe they'd let their dog bite their DGD. They obviously don't care/are used to it snapping.

Sargesaweyes Fri 28-Dec-12 20:53:57

I was quite lucky compared to youMTB but yes it did hurt. Still does a bit. DP's dad is totally smitten with the bloody thing and it is put down as 'playing' as it's quite young!!! It makes me feel sick when I think of all of the children killed by dogs and will be showing dp some articles about them tomorrow to try and make him understand the seriousness of it. I can't stand the way people pussy foot around stuff like this!

MTBMummy Fri 28-Dec-12 20:54:30

Thanks all - I'm in north England, about an hour on from Newcastle, right on the Penines. So proper middle of no where.

I think DP is avoiding me as he knows I'll say I want to leave and he'll have to drive the 8 hours home, and deal with the fall out from his folks.

I promise I'll be at the hospital first thing tomorrow,I've done first aid and it's cleaned and dressed well at the moment. If it gets worse over night I'll kick up a big stink, but right now it's beat to leave it to morning.

I seriously doubt it'll be PTS and I'd never wish that on a dog, but hopefully they'll now take my concerns about lack of training seriously

Just to reiterate DD is never left alone with any dog, but will now nt be in the same room as a dog anymore.

DontmindifIdo Fri 28-Dec-12 20:56:37

Simply put, DD leaves in the morning, your PIL are welcome to visit you without the dog or you'll visit there if the dog is in kennels/staying with others but you won't let DD be in the same house as a dog that has attacked her and you. Your DP can explain that to his parents however he likes.

His DD's safety can't be lower down his priorities than his parent's feelings.

Whocansay Fri 28-Dec-12 20:58:25

Call an ambulance or get a taxi to A&E. Eye injuries are serious and you have a headache. Do not sleep on it. Call someone you trust to come and get your children. Your husband is an idiot who is not prioritising his wife and children. It is NOT your fault.

And yes, report the fucking dog before it injures someone else. And personally, I wouldn't give a shit about the feelings of people who are minimising my feelings and injuries, and who are willing to put their grandchildren at risk over a pet.

I hope you're OK, but I bet you're in shock.

Lovethesea Fri 28-Dec-12 21:03:27

You poor thing.

I'm a big dog lover but aggression shows an unhappy or scared dog as well as being dangerous for all concerned. Doesn't matter what breed, all dogs can get ill and turn vicious or see themselves as pack leader and act aggressively. Definitely look after your eye sight and your DD needs to know she is safe too.

I would also never trust the dog again - with no clear reason for the attack there is no predicting when the next bite will be.

Sounds really awkward with PIL, sympathies. Perhaps a calm No to any future requests to bring the dogs to you - ie find kennels or a friend to dogsit instead, and when you visit next time either never in the same room or a B&B??

ChristmasIsForPlutocrats Fri 28-Dec-12 21:20:29

You can call NHS Direct on 0845 4647. Someone will ring back to assess you and either reassure you enough that you can sleep or give you the professionsl backing to demand the A&E/ urgent care walkin tonight.

maddening Fri 28-Dec-12 21:26:52

At least call nhs direct - they can get a nurse to call you back to at least confirm if you are ok to wait till morning at least.

charlearose Fri 28-Dec-12 23:33:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mrslaughan Fri 28-Dec-12 23:37:11

are you up to date with your tetnus jabs?

Do seek medical advice. My SIL is a police officer and was bitten by a dog on duty and has been very ill. Dog mouths are full of germs.

CoolaYuleA Sat 29-Dec-12 00:48:30

Am I the only person who noted that the OP says she previously kicked the dog.....

Dogs who are afraid as they tend to be when they have been kicked by a person are not able to reason, they react and can do so long after the fact.

I am not saying that the dog should have done what it did - but dogs have memories, and one of this dogs memories is the OP kicking it. This will have had an impact.

I have dogs, I also have a DD - I never allow my older dog in the same room as my DD, she is going blind and just wants a quiet life. She has never done anything to DD, but I won't risk it. Likewise I don't let DD play with balls and the dogs, especially one ball with two dogs, it sets up potential jealousy. But again, that doesn't in any way make what the dog did to the DD acceptable.

My SM has a dog that is massively jealous of my DD - and went for her. I told my DF that I would not be visiting with DD again unless the dog was put in another room. This happened for a while, SM is once again trying to push the boundaries and started to let the dog in by "accident" so I have started to only visit when DF is there as he puts the dog out.

I would be asking that the dog be kept in a seperate room or I would be leaving with DD.... But I also think the OP needs to be aware that her kicking the dog also has a part to play in how the dog reacts to her as dogs rarely react aggressively with no trigger. The dog feels threatened by the OP for good reason and that will have informed the reaction.

WelshMaenad Sat 29-Dec-12 00:53:38

I'd kick a dog that was attacking my pet. Don't be sanctimonious.

CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sat 29-Dec-12 01:00:09

Cool, she kicked the dog because it had her cat pinned to the floor and had taken a chunk from it. This dog is obviously not agressive because she kicked it. It went for OPs DD too. So that is a cat, an adult and a child. It is an agressive dog.

BoerWarKids Sat 29-Dec-12 01:06:03

I can't believe what a dickhead your DP is being! shock

Who cares about the fallout with his parents when you, his wife, has been attacked.

forgetmenots Sat 29-Dec-12 01:06:22

I'm terrified of any dogs. This would completely freak me out.

I respect all animals but I would be finding it very difficult to have any respect for this dog and more importantly its owners. Get your dd out until they are willing to separate her and the dog at all times. Your DH needs to support you on this, it's about your child's safety.

CoolaYuleA Sat 29-Dec-12 01:09:59

Dogs are animals and hunting animals at that.... It is natural behaviour for them to see smaller animals as prey. To a dog a cat is prey. To some breeds more so than others.

I am in no way excusing what the dog did to her DD - but I don't think that a dog can be wholly to blame for being aggressive to a person who has previously been violent towards it. That isn't being sanctimonious - that's understanding animal behaviour.

Would I ever kick a dog? No. If I did would I expect the dog to react aggressively and to continue to react to me aggressively? Yes. Dogs react aggressively out of two things - anxiety and fear..... What do you think the OP kicking the dog for following a natural instinct caused? Anxiety and fear.

The dog is not solely to blame here.

WelshMaenad Sat 29-Dec-12 01:16:00

No, the dogs owners are mostly to blame. They sound like my PIL, who also gave a snappy bitey dog whose behaviour they excuse.

The OP is the VICTIM. The dog has snapped at her in multiple occasions as well as attacking her pet. She is not to blame.

forgetmenots Sat 29-Dec-12 01:17:43

I hear you cool but it is the owner's responsibility to keep their dog away from people when it is clearly aggressive, regardless of what caused the dog to bite. Understanding human behaviour is important too and it sounds like OPs in laws haven't trained the dog at all if it still behaves like a hunting animal in the home with a cat and a child.

IAmNotAReindeer Sat 29-Dec-12 01:23:13

Nobody has said the dog is solely to blame. They have said the PILs continued blindness to its behaviour and unwillingness to do anything to mitigate it which is making for a dangerous situation.

They need training, the dog needs training as well as behaviourist and vets visits to get to the bottom of this if they want a happy well adjusted dog. They just continue to behave as if nothing is happening and lets face it happy, well adjusted dogs don't react like this to people. The whole kicking thing is just adding to it. Yes dogs hunt but well trained dogs will only do so when commanded to or the whole gun dog and hunting industry would have fallen flat on its face long ago as said dogs wouldn't be able to be trusted to do their job properly.

The dog is clearly letting everyone know it isn't happy with the situation. Whether that is through anxiety agression or pain induced steps need to be taken now to ensure it doesn't happen again. The OP has said she is perfectly willing to remove herself and her child as she knows the PILs won't remove the dog but her DH doesn't want her to to avoid making a scene.

ComposHat Sat 29-Dec-12 01:24:37

Why not offer to take the dog for a little walk....somewhere near a canal? You could always say it ran away.*

*I am not being wholly serious.

CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sat 29-Dec-12 01:25:43

Oh please! Not every dog sees cats like that, many dogs have had the hunter bred well and truly out. You are making excuses. There are more than 2 reasons for a dogs agressive behaviour, and training and upbringing is one of them. The dog was reacting agressively to the cat, it behaved agressively to the OP and her DD. Its an agressive dog.
I am a dog owner and would have done the same in the OPs position. No one is going to stand by and watch a dog rip a cat to shreds! And a dog who is in the process of attempting to rip a cat to shreds is highly unlikely to notice being kicked and file the perpetrators details away for the future!
I do agree though, the dog isnt entirely to blame. Its owners bear the responsibility and blame for its behaviour. It should be adequately restrained when in the presence of other people and animals!

festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 07:46:58

MTB. Please update when able. A bit worried about your eye.
And let us know whether ht that wretched dog has been. Dealt with.
Hope all is ok for you.

yousmell Sat 29-Dec-12 07:59:39

CoolaYuleA - the kick was done to stop dog attacking/mauling the cat. It's OK to use force to protect another animal. It's not like the OP was just randomly kicking the dog!

The dog is obviously very aggressive and dangerous.

Leave ASAP. Go to the GP and get the wound looked at/reported. Has the dog hurt anyone else? I strongly suspect this dog could easily kill a child.

Explain that you/kids are never going to be in the same room/house as dog. There is no discussion to be had. That is what is happening.

Report the dog. Imagine how you will feel if the dog actually does seriously injure a neighbor/child and you have done nothing.

How are you this morning, MTB?

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 08:08:51

Morning all, the fall out has started, in that I've refused to let DD into PiL's room where te dogs sleep this morning, something I'm normally happy with. So have had to do a lot of explaining to DD as to why, and because I said so sadly doesn't work in this case. DD will not be out of my sight today. DP thinks I'm over reacting.

We'll be heading out this morning to the nearest town so I'll make sure I go to the walkin clinic there. My eye is less swollen but vision is quite blurry in that eye, and I'd be lying if I sai I wasn't concerned about it.

Just to clarify a point, the dog I kicked was PiL's other dog, and since that incident has not gone for my cats again. I'd also like to stress that kicking it was a last resort, I'd tried pulling it off the cat, but it was not responding. I grew up with dogs and have always loved them, an would never hurt a dog unless it was an absolute last resort. Just to add one more point, they did not have this dog that bit me when the cat incident occurred so did not see me hurting it's friend.

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 08:12:58

It did come to light last night that the dog has bitten FiL in the past, again unprovoked and put a couple of holes in FiLs cheek.

Why they didn't tell me this before hand I dot know, I would never have even let DD anywhere near the dog

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 08:19:37

Sorry to drip feed just reading last nights and this mornings posts...

I would feel awful if the dog hurt a child and I could have stopped it by reporting the dog.

After a lot of thinking dogs will not be welcome in our house ever again. It makes me so sad as I'd finally got DP roun to the idea of having a dog, but now I just wouldn't risk it.

MIL has just been through to try and convince me I don't need to get it checked out. I just don't understand why she's being like this - thing aren't great between us but why risk her DGD?

If your tetanus is not up to date you'll need a vaccination, so go to the doctor asap a there is a time limit after the bite for this. The doctor will ask if it was your dog or someone else's, so you can report this if you want to without telling either your PIL or your DH. (I was bitten when separating a dog fight recently so am fairly up to date on this)

PessaryPam Sat 29-Dec-12 08:28:37

You need to get to the A&E asap you could have damage to your eye that is not apparent yet. Please.

WynkenBlynkenandNod Sat 29-Dec-12 08:29:30

Oh dear, you poor thing. Glad you are getting your eye looked at this morning' you do definitely need to. Personally there is no way I would be staying in the house With DD any longer. Your PIL are clearly not taking this seriously and I wouldn't trust them to make sure the dog stays separated during your visit.

Given that the dog has already caused a facial injury I find it amazing they let it near your DD in the first place. It's now caused two facial injuries and bitten your DD. that would be the end for me, there is no way I would be visiting them again or having the dog in my house, I wouldn't accept any contact between the dog and DD again. Your DH and PIL aren't taking this seriously so that only leaves you to. I say that as owner of large brown mutt currently snoring on my bedroom floor.

BlueberryHill Sat 29-Dec-12 08:34:42

Everyone who should be supporting you isn't and is undermining your correct thoughts, feelings and instincts. The PIL and your DH are trying to minimise the incident, it is just a small bit to your eye, it hardly scratched your DD, it doesn't need checking out, we don't need to do anything about the dog, your DH doesn't have to deal with the fall out from his parents over a bloody dog.

What about you, your eye and your DD. I cannot believe how blind these people are to the danger to your DD, your DH is seriously out of order and should be taking you to a clinic and going home. Good luck with this, trust your instincts and don't let them make it out to be your fault, it is theirs for not training and controlling their dogs.

BlueberryHill Sat 29-Dec-12 08:36:20

Agree with WynkenBlynkenandNob completely. They should be making sure that their DGD is safe not the bloody dog.

Inertia Sat 29-Dec-12 08:36:32

My advice :

Get your injury checked out urgently. Take DD along to double check that there is no unseen injury to her hand.

Tell DH that you and DD are leaving as you will not be spending any more time in a house with dangerous dogs.

Look into reporting the dog - perhaps the hospital staff will know how this is done or can do it as part of their recording process ?

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 08:45:56

Get your eye checked out and go home with DD. Leave the PIL with their dogs, don't worry about the fallout, that's for your DP to handle however he can.
many dog owners are irrational about their animals, so an extended discussion to explain how and why and what and who is pointless.
Stay calm, state your reasons for leaving and never coming back and stick to them.
Despite any frothing, justifications or insistence that you are being over-protective and worrying about nothing. You aren't. You are being sensible.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 08:48:58

'Dog bite don't tend to lead to infections so I am sure you will be ok, just do what you feel is right in your heart.'

eltsih, are you for real? Dog bites usually lead to infections, including deadly ones like blood poisoning. Where did you obtain this misconception from?

Footface Sat 29-Dec-12 08:49:20

Please report the dog. It has bitten three times. Imagine it was a child.

There was a link the other day on mn about a family dog who bit their child, it caught an artery in the child's neck. The little boy died.

The dog had never bitten before, your pils has. It really needs to be PTS.

Ill see if I can find the link.

I think the reason your mil doesn't want you to go to a and e is she knows there will be awkward questions asked

DontmindifIdo Sat 29-Dec-12 08:51:14

Please go to a&e, insist on it now. This is serious, why is pils feelings more important to your dh than your sight?!?!?

Footface Sat 29-Dec-12 08:51:35
fuzzypicklehead Sat 29-Dec-12 08:56:25

Not to worry you OP, but if a dog bite breaks the skin it needs to be seen by a doctor as soon as possible. The risk of infection is huge and your eye isn't really an area you want to mess with. Check out the NHS choices website for confirmation if your IL's are trying to fob you off.

PartridgeInASpicyPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 08:57:31

Do please go and get checked if your vision is blurred but don't get hung up on the issue of reporting it. The law on dangerous dogs only applies in public places so there is nothing anyone can do about a bite on private property. There have been campaigns about this but that's how it stands so they have not committed any offence and the dog can't be seized.

tiffinbaker Sat 29-Dec-12 09:01:35

You really really need medical attention for yourself, to keep your DD away from this dangerous dog and to report the dog as it is a danger to other people too. Your PILs are clearly very irresponsible people so you have to be the responsible one.

CheeryCherry Sat 29-Dec-12 09:14:52

Huge dog lover here, I am shocked how your Pil are treating this. Surely their DGD comes first?? Your MIL seems to be trying to brush the issue away...but I have a feeling they know more and are desperately trying to protect their dogs. Anyone with common sense would suggest a Dr visit asap...she obviously thinks her dog is in danger. I would go to drs, get checked out, feign/exaggerate illness (to allow DH a get-out clause) and get home. And don't visit again for a very very long time. Keep us posted OP and good luck.

BlatherskitedaboutChristmas Sat 29-Dec-12 09:32:11

Blurry vision in the injured eye sounds very worrying. You definitely need to get that checked out ASAP - no matter what MIL says!

ChestyNutsRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sat 29-Dec-12 09:46:12

Also a huge dog lover here.

You must get the wound seen ASAP (also a HCP)
Dog bites carry huge risk due to bacteria in dogs mouth and you should never delay where eyes are concerned.

Would also tell them I wouldn't be visiting again unless dog was away in a separate room but they are welcome to visit, minus dog.

They need to acknowledge their dog needs some serious training, their apparent denial is dangerous and doing the dog no favours.

I could make excuses for dog, excitement, change to routine but I won't as why it bit is less important than ensuring you and DD are not at risk again.

please get your eye seen.........

4boysthatilove Sat 29-Dec-12 09:53:12

OK apologies I haven't read all the replies, just the first couple so sorry if someone else has already said this. As a qualified dog behaviouralist I would want the dog to have a full vet check to ensure there were no underlying health problems that might have caused this - assuming its out of character. An undiagnosed ear infection in a dog can cause it excruciating pain and can lead to aggression totally out of normal character. You must get your bite looked out - not sure who said dog bites don't get infected but they do and I speak from personal experience as bitten a couple of times in my work - dog's mouths are teeming with bacteria (just think about where that tongue goes!), and it goes without saying that the dog is kept well away from your DD. Can I ask what breed of dog? How old it is? Any food guarding issues previously?? Talk of putting the dog to sleep if this is the first such instance is over the top imo. Hope your wound heals up soon x

MadamFolly Sat 29-Dec-12 09:53:42

Please g to A&E, I'm concerned about your blurred vision, you could have serious damage and eyes can deteriorate quickly.

Fuck the dig, report and get it put down, its bitten 3 times unprovoked. Its a menace.

MadamFolly Sat 29-Dec-12 09:53:56


festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 09:54:55

Echo footface's comments.
shock at your DP's attitude though. If that were my DH the dog would be on the way to the vet.

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 09:57:20

Just wanted to say thank you for all your support and comments, about to go into a signal dead zone and no wifi. But will update you all ASAP.

Your support has given me the strength to stand my ground and I will report te dog, I really don't want it biting someone else knowing I could have done something to stop it.

On the plus side DP has come round to seeing my side.

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 09:59:10

It's a collie dog, that was rescued from a working farm as it was afraid of sheep, and their other dog is also a collie. Both have had no training.

Right off line for a while now while I get this checked out

Thank you all so much

festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 10:03:53

Get medical attention for that eye. Hurrah for DP now he's on board.
Tetanus jab today for anyone who's skin was punctured.

Arithmeticulous Sat 29-Dec-12 10:07:12

Have you got medical attention yet?

I'm not sure the police could do anything with the dog as the attack was in a house- people have been killed by dogs on private land and the police couldn't prosecute. However I would be phoning 101 and doing my best to get it on record.

SecretSantaFix Sat 29-Dec-12 10:16:21

Collies are one breed that, with proper and consistent training and tasks to do, are usually brilliant dogs. My old girl was PTS because of cancer 2 years ago and I have always said that until I have the time and space to have another Border Collie, I wouldn't have one. They need lots of stimulation or they become bored. Bored sheepdogs become nippy and destructive and drive everyone around them potty.

Sounds like your PIL have failed in their responsibility to the dog and you are bearing the fruits of that failure.

Bobyan Sat 29-Dec-12 10:18:45

The dog has already bitten three people, how many is an acceptable number before it is put down?

Bitchplease Sat 29-Dec-12 10:19:46

I hope you're alright OP, I've read this thread in disbelief. How dare they not put you first! Had that been my dog that bit you I would have you in a taxi straight to a&e.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 10:24:07

You've read this thread in disbelief?
There are a lot of people whose attitudes would reflect the PIL's response, which is why dog bites will continue to be a problem.

MrsTomHardy Sat 29-Dec-12 10:41:21

Hope you do get your face looked at OP.

How can your InLaws be so unbothered by these events especially when you have a DD!!!!

FestiveWench Sat 29-Dec-12 10:52:26

We had similar problems with a collie snapping at people and occasionally hurting them. We were terrified that we'd have got have her put down but after a few months of proper training she was a different lovely dog.
Collies have a real pack mentality IME and have to be firmly taught that they are not 'top dog'.

Good luck.

jessjessjess Sat 29-Dec-12 10:52:37

OP I really hope you are okay. I am in shock after reading your thread. I am horrified that you were made to feel you had to wait until today to check it out, and frankly also horrified that your DP had to "come round".

My in-laws have dogs. I don't drive. If one of them bit me and my DH refused to help me get it looked at right then, it would be game over. Nobody's hurt feelings - not the dog, or the in-laws - should have trumped your need for urgent medical attention. It's great that he has come round but why the actual feck did he need to? You don't drive, you needed his help and support, and he wanted to deny you medical attention you should have had immediately? He should have been calling a taxi or an ambulance. I find it disturbing that he didn't.

Astelia Sat 29-Dec-12 11:44:59

I hope you have had your eye checked out now OP and your DD has had her hand looked at. You can't be too careful as infections can easily result from bites. A friend of mine's daughter was bitten and ended up in hospital for four days due to infections.

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 11:52:34

I'm at the hospital at the moment waiting to be seen, PIL's tried to insist in waiting with me, but have told them to leave me alone while DD and I get checked out.

Signal is ropey at best, so I'm hoping this will post.

Some very stern words will be had with PIL's and they will be for ed to finally chose between their dogs and their DGD, especially as we're trying for #2 I'm not prepared to risk this again, not put anyone else at risk.

I will be making a complaint about this dog, even if it just means its on record, as it was at their house.

Can't thank you all enough - was definitely in shock last night, and I'm used to being bullied by them, so you have all helped so much.

For the person that asked the dog is about 2 years old, maybe 3 at a push. Have taken a photo of it too so I can show what it looked like at the time of the bite

And lastly DD's skin not broken, but don't trust anyone else with her right now.

festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 11:56:17


hermioneweasley Sat 29-Dec-12 12:06:56

Well done MTB. Your PIL sound in denial and you have done the right thing. Hope your eye is ok.

CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sat 29-Dec-12 12:12:29

The fact that this is an untrained collie is no suprise! Really, collies are dogs that need serious training and stimulation. A collie without these is a recipe for disaster. They have very strong instincts, have been bred for centuries for a very specific job. IMO they are one dog which should come with serious controls and regulations about ownership.

Footface Sat 29-Dec-12 12:27:31

Glad your getting medical help finally, fingers crossed for you that everything is fine.

Fwiw my mil has a dog, it is a lovely dog, she'd had a few years when one day it was sitting on the sofa next to me and got very loud , snarling barking, really out if character. I asked her what was wrong with him.

She went on to explain that he didn't like people walking past windows, and that he had been rehomed through the dog trust because he had bitten a little girl of the family he used to live with.

The psychologist who had accessed him said he was not to be placed in a family home as it didn't suit him. ( she has 5 grandchildren) but from then I have said we will only visit if he's not there.

It causes fiction, but to me and my dc's it's not worth the risk.

yousmell Sat 29-Dec-12 12:49:53

Well done, you are doing all the right things to protect your family and possibly other people too. At hospital can you mention that the dog has bitten your FIL's face previously?

Just wanted to add that my IL's have a couple of rescue dogs too and we find it impossible when we have visited with our three children (including a toddler and a baby). The dogs have free access to all rooms and wander everywhere. My IL's blindly trust their dogs and believe they can never do any wrong. Also I can't trust MIL to watch the kids while I nip to the loo, load the car or to get a nappy as she will just leave kids alone with the dogs. My IL's also have a habbit of doing little experiments with behavior. I just can't relax and spend any visit on edge so much so, we haven't visited in over a year. Despite being with the kids constantly last time my eldest got nipped calmly walking down the drive.

PartridgeInASpicyPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 13:05:19

I hope you're being checked over and it's not too serious. People like your PIL make me furious for two reasons. Firstly and most importantly because they put you and your DD at risk. But also because they give all dog owners a bad name by behaving so irresponsibly. We had a family bust up over a visit that could have been completely avoided with a discussion about how to manage our dogs, but a family member assumed that because our dogs are very important to us, we wouldn't consider anything but having them loose all over the house with unrestricted access to children. Very frustrating as we are not like that at all and had many ideas about how to make sure the DS never even saw the dogs if they didn't want him to! I like to think most people are responsible, but I mighy be wrong. Unfortunately you only ever hear the bad, not "I went to so and so's and they were very careful with their dogs and no one got hurt"!

Bakingtins Sat 29-Dec-12 13:21:14

"dog bites don't tend to lead to infections" sorry but this is dangerous nonsense. Dog have horrible bacteria in their mouth and any bite injury that has broken the skin, quite apart from the fact that your eye is involved, should have immediate medical attention and be treated with antibiotics.
I hope you have got yourself and your DD out of there and made it clear you are not going back unless the dog is crated or otherwise kept out of the room for the duration of your visit.
I'm a dog owner and dog lover and if my dog bit someone unprovoked I would be seriously considering having her PTS.

Cortana Sat 29-Dec-12 13:29:32

Not sure if this has been said, have read all OP's posts but not whole thread. No harm in saying it again.

Can you and DP put pressure on PIL to take the dog to the vets? It might just be bad training but biting unprovoked can be a sign the dog is unwell or in pain.

Glad your DP is on side now and I hope all goes well for you at the hospital.

Chottie Sat 29-Dec-12 13:35:31

OP please post again, I hope all is well with your eye. I logged back in to check you had gone to A&E and am really pleased to know you have.

yousmell Sat 29-Dec-12 13:43:45

If only my IL's were more considerate like you PartridgeInASpicyPearTree. They would never consider restricting the dogs movements round the house.

eltsihT Sat 29-Dec-12 14:03:57

Just to clarify when I said earlier dog bites don't tend lead to infection, I was told this by a nurse who was treating a dog bite on my sons head. I know all bites can, it is just less likely dog bites will than cat or human bites. Hope everything is ok after your trip to get checked out MTB.

You do realise that unless you report this dog when it actually harms someone seriously you will be partly responsible don't you? What if it attacks a child in the street and that child is seriously hurt, will you be able to live with yourself? I sure as hell couldn't! What would people think of you if someone got seriously hurt and it was found out that you knew this dog was dangerous?

As for your injuries, I'd get down to the hospital and get checked out and ask them to report the incident. That way you won't have the heat on you but the issue will be addressed. And as for your eye, seriously you are not worried about permanent damage to your sight due to infection. My DH would be shoes on and in that car faster than he could blink no matter how much trouble it would cause with anyone.

Sargesaweyes Sat 29-Dec-12 14:51:15

How are you OP?

HansieMom Sat 29-Dec-12 15:24:28

Are you going back to PIL?? I do not understand why they went to hospital with you? I would just go home after medical care.

mrslaughan Sat 29-Dec-12 15:35:53

Maybe this dog has done this to more than FIL, yourself and DD - and it is being "watched" so to speak.... and thats why MIL wants to minimise it. It is fucking outrageous.
Hope you have had eye checked, blurry vision very concerning.....you need to get that properly checked ASAP.
Let us know how you are

TeamSledward Sat 29-Dec-12 15:44:29

I hope we haven't heard back from OP because she is on her way home with DD, and not because she's still in the hospital sad

StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes Sat 29-Dec-12 15:50:22

my mum had a dog, a borzoi who was absolutely beautiful and very soft, when it died she got another, equally beautiful but it bit my dad one day, then on another occasion I reached over his basket to get a cloth off the radiator behind him and he bit me. It was excused as being terratorial about his own space then on xmas day morning it bit my mum quite badly, she had to go to A&E and have stitches and her wedding band cut off. when she got back she rang the vet and took him straight there to be put to sleep. said she would never trust him again and he would not be safe around her grandchildren. we were all sad I cried all day, we had no presents and ate sausages for xmas dinner instead of the full turkey set up that had been planned. I know they did the right thing but looking back I cant help blaming my dad and brother for being too brutal with him to 'train' him. they used to shout to get him in his basket and I saw brother kick his basket when he was in it, tbh I think they made him nervous and he just reacted. very sad but some dogs just cannot be around many people, and some just have misguided owners. sad

MTBMummy Sat 29-Dec-12 15:58:25

Hi all - sorry for not responding sooner. We took DD to the beach after I got checked out, so she could let off some steam. We'll be staying tonight at PIL's but they have agreed to lock te dog away. And we'll be leaving first thing tomorrow morning.

Saw the doctor and I have a hole in my eyelid which he has suggested is better to heal naturally as closing it may not allow infection to be spotted. My eye itself is scratched, so I have cream for my eye and anti-biotics for the infection. I've lost a little vision, but they hope it's down to swelling and not permanent.

The only reason for staying tonight I so we can have an adult conversation about the dogs and what they plan to do with regards to managing the dogs while maintaining a relationship with DD.

I have reported the dog and mentioned it snapped at DD and has bitten FiL. The hospital have said they'll make the complaint and keep me in the loop.

Thanks so much everyone and sorry for not coming back sooner

Bobyan Sat 29-Dec-12 16:04:30

Glad you're OK (sort of)...

EuphemiaInExcelsis Sat 29-Dec-12 16:22:31

Fucking hell you could so easily have lost an eye!

Your PILs need a big dose of getting their priorities right!

Montybojangles Sat 29-Dec-12 16:26:47

Hope your vision gets better quickly.
I'm a dog lover, but would have to take mine to the vets to be PTS if she ever attacked people the way this dog has done. I think your ILs need to face up to the fact that this dog has a nasty habit and next time it could cost a child a life.

clam Sat 29-Dec-12 16:27:06

You have a hole in your eyelid and have lost some vision, yet they say you were over-reacting?????


Inertia Sat 29-Dec-12 18:10:58

Perhaps seeing you again with the report from the hospital will make PIL think about their priorities. I think you and DH might want to go into the meeting with a united front - personally I would not visit again unless the dog was put to sleep, given that it has now bitten three people including your DD ; I'd insist that other dogs were locked away when visitors were there.

Chottie Sat 29-Dec-12 19:37:04

I am so pleased you have received some medical attention. I hope your eye fully recovers, please go to any follow-up visits to ensure all is well.

I am shocked beyond words about your PiL and their attitude to a dog. I hope you manage to work things out and find a solution which suits you all.

yousmell Sat 29-Dec-12 20:53:55

Well done.

Whocansay Sat 29-Dec-12 20:59:48

I hope you're ok and the conversation goes well. I'm still utterly shocked at their lack of concern for your welfare. And I hope that your DH is now giving you his full support.

nannyl Sat 29-Dec-12 22:38:15

I am very much a dog person too.... I love dogs and even many dogs who seem aggressive seem to like band trust me, as I'm really not afraid....

There is no way I or my children would be in the vicinity of the dog you describe.

I hope you get medical attention and home soon.

Perhaps it would be better for this aggressive dog to be reported etc

Could you live with yourself if the next person was even more seriously hurt?

CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sun 30-Dec-12 00:02:30

Good luck talking to your inlaws OP.

MTBMummy Sun 30-Dec-12 10:09:43

Thanks all - just to update you last night really didn't go well, their view is that we just have to accept that the dog bites, they also mentioned their other dog frequently bites people - I was shocked, it's the first I've heard of this.

I've told them we won't be visiting again, and while they're welcome to visit their dogs will not be allowed on our property.

So once again I'm the bad guy keeping them from their son and DGD.

They just don't get it at all and think its acceptable behaviour. They did say they'd speak to a behaviourist, but I'm not holding out any hope as they spoke the same woman about issues with their first dog but never took her advice or attended the training she recommended.

bigbuttons Sun 30-Dec-12 10:13:29

Thank you for updating. Somehow I thought that would be their reaction angry Some people are absolutely arses when it comes to their dogs. Glad your dh is backing you up and I hope your eye makes a full recovery.

ChristmasJubilee Sun 30-Dec-12 10:24:41

Well, if you just have to accept that their dogs bite, they will just have to accept that they will only be having supervised access to dd in your home and they will have to make arrangements to have the dogs looked after when visiting.

Are your dh and yourself now in agreement?

Have a safe journey home.

DontmindifIdo Sun 30-Dec-12 10:33:28

Jesus - your eye sight could be permanently damaged (with all the fall out included in that, is it bad enough that you would have to stop driving?), and they still don't think it's a big deal? I would be going balistic at your DH and refusing to see them at all until you got a full apology and the dog was put down. It's not safe and they don't seem to give a shit about other people's safety. I assume your DH has apologised for putting you and your DD in such a dangerous position?

DontmindifIdo Sun 30-Dec-12 10:34:31

also, people who take safety of others so slackly and are so selfish aren't good people to ever be left in sole charge of your DD regardless of the dog being there or not.

Would they still say that people have to accept the dog bites if they ever get hauled up into court because the dog bit someone outside the home? Doubt the court would accept that.

forgetmenots Sun 30-Dec-12 10:44:23

Hope your DH is on side and will not give in to any pressure to have dd around the dogs. They should be very thankful they gave a second chance with the dogs at all, if they both have history of attacking people.

Pippinintherain Sun 30-Dec-12 10:53:10

Just read all this and am [ that they're acting this way.

I'm a massive dog lover but they are treating the dogs as top of the pack which is very dangerous.

Well done on making a stand, hope your DH is supporting you?

Pippinintherain Sun 30-Dec-12 10:53:43

That should be a shock shock

CatPussRoastingOnAnOpenFire Sun 30-Dec-12 11:25:49

Well it a matter of time before someone outside the home is injured! Then they will have to put the dogs down. I'm sorry you have been put in this position by your PILs, but you have totally done the right thing.

Inertia Sun 30-Dec-12 11:39:07

Am appalled but not surprised by their reaction. Nobody has to accept that dogs bite people - let's just hope that their dogs don't bite any innocent visitors or passers-by .
Glad to hear you won't be going back . Are there any other family members, particularly with children, who need to be warned about the dogs ?

Hope your eye is better soon.

ProphetOfDoom Sun 30-Dec-12 11:43:15

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsTomHardy Sun 30-Dec-12 11:43:59

I take it your DP agrees with you now??

Chottie Sun 30-Dec-12 11:57:38

I just find it unbelievable that PiL put a dog before their son, DiL and GD. Please do not let them make you feel guilty, they have made that decision. I hope your eye is feeling ok today...

Safe journey home.

mrslaughan Sun 30-Dec-12 12:50:40

I can't believe there attitude. They deserve to be prosecuted....
They are idiots and should be banned from owning dogs.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 30-Dec-12 13:02:10

Their attitude is disgusting. No,you do not have to accept the dog bites!

It might not deserve to be put down,it definitely deserves to be rehomed again with people who can fucking train it properly! It will end up being put down if they continue to own it. It is an inevitability. Maybe it is too late now for someone else to step in.

Dogs need to be trained,for their own well being as well as other animals and people's!

Utterly stunned that they thought you were overreacting. There aren't words. Utterly stupid,selfish people.

Hope you and DD are doing ok.

HazleNutt Sun 30-Dec-12 14:10:22

Sure I can acknowledge that their dog bites. they will have to accept that me and my family will not be in the same house as that biting dog though. They're nuts if they think otherwise.

yousmell Sun 30-Dec-12 16:53:25

Sorry to heart they haven't been more supportive. It's shocking to think they have two dangerous dogs and don't care about the safety of their family.

Percephone Sun 30-Dec-12 16:58:25

Err dog bites DO tend to lead to infections. Unless it's a superficial graze it needs washing out and antibiotics.

TeaOneSugar Mon 31-Dec-12 10:00:03

Persephone The OP has seen a doctor.

MTBMummy Wed 02-Jan-13 10:03:18

Hi All,

I just wanted to jump on and update you all and thank you all for your advice and support.

My eye is healing well, and although my vision is still iffy in my right eye the swelling has gone down and a good dollop of make up has made me presentable for work. the wounds are healing well and the smaller of the two seems to almost be healed completely and the other is clean and looking good.

With regards to PiL's - well, they're due to visit us on Thursday with dogs - but have been told that the dogs will not be allowed in my house or garden and DD will not be joining them on any dog walks. I'm at work (although desperately trying to arrange to work from home so that I can supervise - more on why later)

They have admitted themselves that they can't leave the dogs with anyone else because the dogs will not walk with anyone else, and will bite other people if they try to put a lead on them, they also refuse to put the dogs in kennels because they say it's too distressing for the dogs. I can see the kennel thing, but surely the fact that they can't let anyone else look after their dogs should be a massive flashing sign that there is a problem?

DP sees my side, but admits he also see's his Parents side too - so is pretty much sitting on the fence. His view is we should let them take the dog to a behaviorist and see if that helps, but my view is that I'm not prepared to let DD and I be the guinnea pigs, if they do see this person, and follow up on all the training then I may be willing to meet them (without DD) and assess how the dog is, but this process I expect to take at least a year.

One thing DP keeps throwing back at me, is we wouldn't have our cat put down because he bites me, so why should we insist the same is done for the dog. My defence is that the cat only bites me when I'm playing with him, and he's only bitten DD twice - once when she pulled his tail and another when she tried to lift him off the couch (both ages ago when DD was coming up to 2 and was still learning how to treat animals - neither of which she would now do) and he's never drawn blood, just a warning nip - I know DP is ferd up of this cat in particular and would love to rehome him, but does he maybe have a point?

The funny thing is now that I look at the situation with a different perspective, I don't think I have ever seen that dog with a happy relaxed tail - it's always tucked between his legs, when we have visited in the passed he spends his time glued to FiL's legs and always sits under his legs tucked away from everyone else. This obviously now is a massive alarm bell and I wish I'd taken notice of it sooner.

I spoke to my sister and she shares my view - but that's to be expected, she was bitten as a child so has a slight fear of dogs. The only other person I could speak to would be SiL, who is a dog nut (has 5 currently) but does ensure all her dogs are trained incredibly well, although we'd of course never leave DD alone with any dog, but I digress. I could tell SiL, but she already has frequent clashes with her parents on how they treat their dogs and the lack of training, so if I did tell her, it would appear I'm shit stirring, which I don't want to do, but I just want someone to try and get PIL's to see that it's not me being unreasonable.

Thanks again, and sorry this has turned into a bit of an essay - just wanted to get it all out now that I've had a few days to thin about things

ddubsgirl Wed 02-Jan-13 10:10:13

what breed is the dog?

bigbuttons Wed 02-Jan-13 10:10:46

Thanks for updating. I think you are right to be worried that you il's will try and get the dogs in your house/garden. I would not be prepared to let them come with the dogs in tow unless you were there. I would say they had to wait until you could take time off work.
I think you il's are deceitful people who will, without a shadow of a doubt' bring those very dangerous animals into your house, as soon as your back is turned. I'm shocked that your dh is being so weak about this.
I would be bloody fuming and it would be a deal breaker for me.

ddubsgirl Wed 02-Jan-13 10:13:23

i wouldnt have the dog in the house,at all,dogs stay at home or in a kennel-and i would be talking to sil,the dog bit you-yes your cat bites and they can be nasty as in infection-i am a dog person and own a dog-and cat isnt going to kill you-their dog is giving off massive warning signs-it can not be around any child/ren,you & dh are putting your child in harms way,could you ever forgive yourself?

PartridgeInASpicyPearTree Wed 02-Jan-13 10:31:01

Well done for standing your ground on visits. I am not one of the automatic "put it down" crowd. If PILs wanted to work with the dog and rehabilitate it that would be great, but it would need extremely careful management while that work was happening to ensure it did not put anyone at risk. Unfortunately they do not seem interested in putting in the hard work to rehabilitate the dog and are burying their heads in the sand regarding the risk it poses to you and DD. This makes my blood boil and it certainly is not even doing the dog any favours. Stick to your guns and don't allow them to make you out to be the bad guy. And you DP can't honestly think a collie can be compared to a cat!

WelshMaenad Wed 02-Jan-13 10:35:16

From experience - you need to say NO, the dogs don't come at all.

My PIL used to bring their grumpy, bitey, cat chasing child hating devil dog when they visited (they stay in a hotel). I will not allow it in my house/garden to protect my pets and children. They started bringing it on walks when toddler dd was in the carrier. Then they wanted to tie it next to where she was playing at an outdoor cafe and got stroppy when I told them no, put it in the car. Then we would be at hone and they'd be running to the car to check in it every five minutes giving it "oh POOR DDog, mean Mummy wont let us bring him inside!". Then one day when I was busy in the kitchen they took toddler dd out to 'meet' him in the car 'because its good for him to meet children'. At this point I snapped and said it would be good for me never to see him again and he is now kennelled for visits, which us far fairer on everyone including the dog.

They will not respect boundaries. Dog stays away or they do not come. You HAVE to be firm in this, you have to, your child's safety is at stake.

MTBMummy Wed 02-Jan-13 10:44:23

ddubsgirl - it's a collie, was bread to work with sheep but has a fear of sheep, so was about to be put down when MiL heard about it and took it home without telling FiL (fear extends to people, cars, other dogs, even those dog tug toys - I can't help but wonder what actually was done to him as a puppy) it's a shame as he is such a handsome dog, but there's definitely something not right about him

I'm definitely not one of the put it down crowd, and have in the past rescued a dog that was due to be put down for biting a child (back story was that it had been encouraged to rip apart fluffy toys, they then got a new kitten, and well, it did what it had been taught to do when they left the 2 locked in the house alone, The mother came home first and beat it, then the father beat it and fractured its back leg, then when the girl went to hit it, it bit back. I found it in a rescue centre and was told of it's fate, and told it would likely die anyway as it wouldn't eat, I asked if I could sit with it (it just looked so sad) and they let me in and within 30 minutes it was curled up on my lap and eating from my hand, needless to say he came home with me, he was a collie terrier cross, and such an amazing dog, and once we'd worked through his fear of people and not killing small furries (eventually spent every evening cuddled on the sofa with our little black cat) he was superb, never bit, growled and was probably one of the best behaved dogs I've ever owned but it was a lot of constant work with him - this was long before we had DD and he passed away 2 years ago aged 13 after I had him for 11 years.

I just don't believe PIL's will put in the work - I'm not sure if I mentioned this previously, but the other collie (yes they have 2) was sold to them with free puppy classes they took her to one, and then decided not to do anymore as the dog didn't like it - WTAF?
Oddly enough - they were some of the strictest parents to the DC's

MTBMummy Wed 02-Jan-13 10:47:34

And good news - I'm working from home tomorrow - so the dogs will definitely no be going anywhere near DD :-)

bigbuttons Wed 02-Jan-13 10:54:17

Thank God for that!

ddubsgirl Wed 02-Jan-13 10:54:24

collies are very hard work,they need alot of training & exercise-we use to have collies growing up,this dog needs to be in a home with no children around,the fact it has bitten more than once your pil need to really think about the harm they are causing,a collie & small child it can cause a lot of damage or worse,this isnt a small breed dog sad i would report the dog-as much as i hate to say that-something needs to be done,they are putting a pet before a granchild and as much as i love my dog,he is my baby,my kids & anyone else comes first.

BlueberryHill Wed 02-Jan-13 10:59:46

Just read the bit about your DH and the cat. He has a point, if he can find cases where a domestic cat has mauled a small child and left it with seroius injuries, never mind killed a child.

Seeesh, I'm sorry to be blunt but he is being an idiot about this, what is there to see about his parents side? They have dangerous dogs and are in denial about it?

ChristmasIsForPlutocrats Wed 02-Jan-13 11:00:18

How are they going to visit on Thursday if there is no-one home?! Or is it your DH "on duty"?

MTBMummy Wed 02-Jan-13 11:09:39

DP is a SAHP, so he and DD will be there and I would have been a 2 hour commute away - plenty of time to clean up after dogs have been in the house
sorry call me a skeptic, but I really don't believe DP would stop them bringing the dogs in, which just creates a me versus them situation, which we've already had.

Before they got dogs they were baby sitting two dogs (from the breeder they got the first collie from) and arrived at our house (not having told me they were bringing dogs) and as soon as they arrived they let the dogs out the car, both of whom immediately went for our cat who went missing for 6 days. After that, when they got their dog I said I didn't want dogs at my house, but as they're so far away it was made out that I was stopping them seeing their son.

Blueberry his mom in particular is a very "strong" character, where as DP is more laid back and will do anything to avoid an argument, I used to be like this too, but realised if I didn't stand up to MiL she would over ride everything. But yes- I'm shocked that he'd risk his own daughter never mind the fact that I've already been bitten

ddubsgirl Wed 02-Jan-13 11:10:33

op said she is working from home tomorrow so she will be in and wont let the dog in the house

ChristmasIsForPlutocrats Wed 02-Jan-13 11:25:55

Good luck for tomorrow. You shouldn't be doing a huge commute if your eye is still iffy: do you drive?

Forget fear of "shit-stirring"- share as much info with your SIL as possible!

MTBMummy Wed 02-Jan-13 11:35:02

Thanks - My commute is all by public transport, if I needed to drive I wouldn't risk it, but as I just have to walk to the train station and then rely on good old public transport I didn't consider it a problem.

MTBMummy Wed 02-Jan-13 11:36:06

About to email SiL - will start the email by stating it's a awkward situation and I understand if she doesn't wish to be involved, do really want someone who may be able to persuade PIL's on side

FestiveWench Wed 02-Jan-13 11:42:45

I would do the email in terms of asking her advice on how to deal with the dogs on the basis that she had more experience than you with dogs in general and with with her parents' dogs in particular.

BlueberryHill Wed 02-Jan-13 11:49:50

MTBGMummy, I'm sorry you aren't getting any support, he should be the one to manage this but if he isn't you need to. The dogs and the restrictions that they place on your PIL life are not your problem, you haven't caused them, they have but they are making it out to be your problem.

I just want to shake people like this, how can they be so blind (excuse the reference, I hope your eye heals) and selfish not to see the danger that they are putting your and their DGD in.

elizaregina Wed 02-Jan-13 11:49:51

mtb, you poor poor thing!

So glad your eye is ok now - and that you have put your foot down etc....

It sounds like your PILS need the behavirousit therapist - urgenlty.

Shocked at your DH attitude.

CalamityKate Wed 02-Jan-13 11:58:31

Right. I speak as a hugely doggy person with 2 dogs and a husband who isn't doggy at all. Your DH is being a twat. I'm fuming on your behalf. How DARE he put his idiotic parents and their dog above your daughter?? I'm all for giving dogs a chance but in this case the risk is too high.

God I'd go nuts if he even suggested that this bloody dog came anywhere near my children. Idiot.

HansieMom Wed 02-Jan-13 14:28:49

Your DP is not only an idiot, he is a weak idiot.

PurpleRayne Wed 02-Jan-13 15:19:32

Your OH is being a total dick. He is saying that he is prepared to risk your child being bitten. Believe him.

xkittyx Wed 02-Jan-13 18:23:25

He's also a total idiot comparing that dog to your cat. It's not cats that are periodically in the news after tragically killing a child. And I say this as a lover of both dogs and cats.
That dog sounds like a serious potential threat to children.

festivelyfocussed Wed 02-Jan-13 20:41:32

thanks for updating. It's good to hear that your eye is starting to heal.
shock at your DP's attitude. I'm sure he's lovely but he's really got this one wrong. Maybe he needs directing towards news articles reporting the seriousness of attacks by family dogs on young children. Not really sure what to suggest really.
I hope you get some support from your SIL?
Well done for sticking to your guns.

ChasedByBees Wed 02-Jan-13 21:21:30

Just found this thread. Hugely shocked at your DH's attitude. What an arse he's being.

Chottie Wed 02-Jan-13 21:36:02

Thanks for letting us know what happened. It is really good to hear that your eye is healing.

I also think your DP is wrong too, well done for standing firm.

mrslaughan Wed 02-Jan-13 22:04:39

Cats don't and can't do anywhere sort of the damage a dog will do - esp a largish dog ike a collie. Sorry your partner is and ejit - if that dog went for your DD, it could leave her with permanent life long scars, damage to her eyesight, or worse kill her...I am sorry, but there is sitting on the fence and then there is just being a spineless twat at the potential expense of his daughter. I hope you get him to read this.

myBOYSareBONKERS Wed 02-Jan-13 22:17:31

I am absolutely astounded by this. Asked my DH what he would do and he, without hesitation said that the dog would not be allowed any where near us.

I have seen some horrific dog bites due to my work - most of them were unpreventable (as in your case).

Maybe you should google dog bite photos and ask your DH if he really wants to risk his family and it would be COMPLETELY his fault if any harm came to any of you

NaturalBaby Wed 02-Jan-13 22:34:46

How badly does the dog have to injure you or your DD for someone to take this seriously?!? Even a small amount of blood loss in a young child can be life threatening.
If they refuse to visit without the dog then they are choosing the dog over their grandchild. What on earth are they thinking saying you should just accept the dog bites? They are putting the welfare of your child at risk.

Your DH is being a selfish idiot.

MTBMummy Thu 03-Jan-13 09:46:51

Morning All,

I will say DP is normally lovely and very good at this sort of thing, but his mom is a very erm forceful woman, and I can see why he wouldn't want to get in the middle of this - I am not however excusing his behavior in this instance, i agree he needs to man up and stand his ground for his daughter, this is the first time we've had this sort of thing, so I'm hoping with a bit of gentle nudging from his sister and I we'll get him to see how serious this actually is.

SiL is completely on board, and we both don't want MiL to have the dog PTS - but we also both query the PiL's ability to actually take advice and stick with it. We're hoping that their plans to move closer to family and more populated areas will make them realise that this is a necessity and that they can no longer just turn a blind eye (excuse the pun) at the dogs bad behavior, as we both keep stressing that if this were to happen outside the home, they wouldn't have the choice, and the dog would just be PTS. I'm hoping that approach will make them sit up and pay attention, as it's pretty obvious that the safety of their grandchild is not important. It's so sad as these are the last Grandparents my DD has.

PiL due later today, and I'm just going to stay in the study when they arrive (as they don't know I'm at home) and see if they try to bring the dogs in the house - or is that just playing games?

Arithmeticulous Thu 03-Jan-13 10:18:53

I think you have a cunning plan the right idea about staying in the study. Can you set up CCTV hear the front door from there? As you say, it'd be interesting to see if they get the dogs out of the car, and/or get as far as the door before your DH says no tells them you are in the house.

festivelyfocussed Thu 03-Jan-13 10:30:09

Just be strong with the. Greet them cheerfully (delighted to see you bla bla) and be very very clear about the dogs being shut away from humans.
This might help your DP see how it's done.

MrsTomHardy Thu 03-Jan-13 10:35:39

Good idea
Stay in the study and see what happens, but if they bring the dogs in and your DP doesn't say anything then go out and confront them all guns blazing!!
It's your house and your rules!!
Good luck

bigbuttons Thu 03-Jan-13 10:48:03

Please do update once they've gone. I'd really like to know how things 'went' smile

rechargemybatteries Thu 03-Jan-13 11:00:28

I am a dog lover I have two and I adore them they are spoilt rotten. But if they ever ever ever left as much as a mark never mind broke then skin or made as if they were going for someone they would be on their way to the vet for the big jag. I wouldn't allow it. I wouldn't take the chance. People first dogs second.

Although I have to say if they're collies they'll take a wild power of walking and stimulation and I would have my doubts they're getting that. And your PIL sound very blinkered and naive and I cannot believe they are putting a dog before their grandchild.

Inertia Thu 03-Jan-13 11:11:26

Hope all goes well today. I agree that it would be better if you greet PIL at the door - much easier to not let dogs in than to get them out afterwards. You can be equally forceful - either they don't bring the dogs or they go straight back home again.

Sorry to say that I agree with your DH about the cat - a cat can't savage a child in the way a dog can, but cat bites are just as unhygienic and it's now bitten 4 times. I think you need a solution to this.

OP, I have been following your thread but haven't posted until now.

My PILs have an aggressive dog too, it has never bit me though but it does growl and has snapped at me and DS. Your PIls dog seems far worse.

I was told the dog would be kept away from DS and he wasn't, we had an agreement that if DS would be there he would always be in a different room but when he was brought back I was told they had been 'playing' together. I even tried to clicker train him myself but even though it was working it was useless as noone else would keep it up.
They are ok together now he is older but in your situation I wouldn't take a chance and if there was no way you could have them seperated I would report and have the dog put to sleep. Horrible, I know but you can't take the chance with your childs life and if there is no other way to ensure her safety then...

Smellslikecatspee Thu 03-Jan-13 12:27:12

I am a total dog nutter, which is why I don't have one at the moment, I don't have the time that any dog big or small needs.

I'm sorry there is no on the fence here for your DH, it is simply your childs safety or the dog, the fact that it even needs thinking about after the dog bit you is, to me anyway, unforgivable.

Hope it all goes well & the dogs stay out of your home.

Have been lurking, but wanted to say hope it goes well for today.

Just on someone else's suggestion re showing DH the damage a collie could do to a small child - would it have any impact if you showed PILs the damage instead with the phrase "this could be your grand-child - think about it?"

Also, the cat is a completely different case for two reasons:

1) Cats are smaller so will generally cause less injury and, more importantly;
2) Going by what you said, the cat needs active, and known, triggers to attack (playing/tail-pulling) but the dog has unknown triggers that cause an attack

NaturalBaby Thu 03-Jan-13 15:26:38

If I were you I wouldn't be able to resist hiding in the study!

sleepsforwimps2010 Thu 03-Jan-13 16:25:55


Op read this site and get your husband and pil to read it too.
this was posted in here a few weeks ago, but it doesnt sound like youve seen it.

~the site was set up to educate people about the warning signs of a stressed dog who will bite. it was set up my the parents of a 2 year old boy who was killed by a single dog bite.
they hadnt recognised the warning signs that this dog was a potential problem.... and their child died, having been bitten ONCE.
Op you HAVE seen the signs; show your husband this site and ask him is he really prepared to risk his dds life to avoid upsetting his parents?

LadyMercy Thu 03-Jan-13 16:53:09

I hope your PIL are prepared to put the work into this dog, collies can be so lovely, but they are so clever they need proper training, regular exercise and sometimes more activity to occupy their brains.

If it's past the point of retraining then it has to stay away or be PTS. A collie can do a huge amount of damage in a matter of seconds. They can be so fast you don't have time to defend yourself, or your child.

SoYo Thu 03-Jan-13 20:44:03

How did it go MTB? Hope you're ok and they've seen some sense!

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 08:14:28

Morning all, sorry about not responding last night PIL's arrived much than expected and then I had to catch up on the work I needed to do.

They arrived, and immediately took the dogs out for a walk, on their return MiL came to the door, I greeted her, as DP was busy with DD, and she just said "So dogs, in or out?" I very politely said I didn't want them in so could they keep them in the car please. She really looked so upset, they only stayed for a quick cup of tea (which they didn't even finish) and loo breaks and then left.

They were rather off-ish, and the conversation was brief and very strained. We didn't discuss the dogs, but did say to FiL we'd chat in a few weeks as they're supposed to be meeting us at the end of Jan when we go on holiday, and I really don't want to be around their dogs, especially if nothing has been done.

I know they were going on to SIL's house and that she had said she also wanted a word with them about their dogs.

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 08:31:52

sleepsforwimps2010 - thanks for that link, it's very interesting, the dog definitely displays many of the signs for an anxious dog, actually come to think of it both dogs do, the one just removes herself from the situation, which can be a PITA as she tends to remove herself to the corridor, and you then have to move past her to get to another room - this is how she snapped at me and DD when DD was 2 months - I was walking past to change a nappy and she snapped at me, at the time I was just told she didn't like people invading her space and I had to accept it was her house (god looking back, why didn't I do more then) She's snapped at me in the past, but they've always taken the dogs side and said I must have misinterpreted her actions - yes they take the dogs "word" over mine - I can't believe it took a bite for me to have all of this click into place.

The dog that bit me is a very big barker, we've always joked that he has no memory as he'll bark on your arrival, and if he ever comes across you in the house unexpectedly, by the end of each day he seems to relax and stop barking, but the next morning it's back to square one, this goes on for an entire visit, sometimes a week.

I feel so stupid, I know dogs, I have had many "dangerous" breeds, GSD's, rottweilers, dobermans and I just didn't recognise the signs in these two dogs.

I will say the PIL's are great at exercising the dogs, they get 2 very long walks a day, but no other stimulation.

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 08:38:12

Just wanted to add, that after DP's comment about my cat, I did some research and I've found some techniques to help with him being less aggressive, as pointed out he is only aggressive as a response to either pain (DD not being as gentle as she could - but she's grown out of that now) or as a result of over stimulation, but to make sure we all play by the same rules, I have agreed to try these techniques with the cat and see if it helps.

I think it's a bit of a cycle with the cat, DP gets annoyed at him, so ignores him, so when I get home and play with him, he goes a bit loopy, I've told DP that he needs to make an effort to be nice to the cat (as he is with his own cat - but she's a complete softy and lap cat, where as mine is a young tom) and I'll make sure I give my cat some one to one, play and cuddle time so he feels less ignored.

LoopsInHoops Fri 04-Jan-13 09:09:22

The point seems to be missed that they need to protect the dogs by getting them properly trained and secured. They are risking them being put down after causing a horrible injury to someone else. If that happens, it will be their fault for their lazy, careless and cavalier attitude.

fluffyraggies Fri 04-Jan-13 09:09:35

Well done yesterday OP. You're doing the right thing.

Remember though - it's not your responsibility to convince them you are doing the right thing re: dog arrangements.

Of course you want them to understand and agree with you, because that will make the relationship smoother between you, your DP, the ILs and your DC.

Just saying though - you're right, they're wrong, and if they can't see that after your initial attempts to explain, then don't feel responsible if the relationship stays strained for a long time. Maybe forever sad

They're choosing their dogs over their family. That is their choice. Tough titty if that means they don't get to see their GCs. Harsh, but true.

Whocansay Fri 04-Jan-13 09:33:47

Every time I come to this thread, I keep thinking, "oh they must have got it by now"! They haven't and I don't think they ever will. They are utter morons who shouldn't own animals. Well done for standing your ground. I think all you can do is not allow the dogs in your home and stop visiting PIL when the dogs are present. PIL are not going to do anything about it and still don't appear to be remotely sorry for what has happened.

smornintime Fri 04-Jan-13 09:45:05

Well done on not letting them in. Also can't believe the penny hasn't dropped yet!

SpicyPear Fri 04-Jan-13 09:55:56

Loops exactly. Obviously their DGD should be the priority, but even trying to see it from their perspective, they are not being kind or good owners to their dogs. I have a nervous dog. Even though she has never shown any sign of aggression, snapping etc, I still strongly see it as in her best interests to make sure she is never put in a position where she could hurt someone. Sometimes that means we arrange care for her when we are going to be around children. I would also never ever expect my dogs to be allowed in someone's home, even close family. I thanked my own DM massively when she offered to have ours to stay because she is very house proud and I understand it is a big deal for her.

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 10:48:24

I'm just as amazed as the rest of you - I can't see why anyone would put pets before their own grandchildren, but that seems to be the case. It's their call to make, and while it makes me sad that DD will now see less of her only grandparents, it's their choice and I can't change that.

The dogs at house thing winds me up no end, it's always just expected that they will be allowed to stay in the house. One year we arranged to have my whole family and them over for DD's birthday, our neighbours were away and had offered their house for PIL's to stay in as they already have dogs, the one proviso was that the dogs were not allowed upstairs into the bedrooms. MiL refused this option so the dogs slept in the car instead, just seems so odd to me.

We have plenty other friends and relatives with dogs, but they've never even asked if the dogs would be welcome, even though we have offered to have the dogs stay, they just say it's our house and it would upset the cats too much.

As I said previously the fact that they just turned up with dogs unannounced when they were pet sitting these two other collies just illustrates what they're like.

I wonder if the tables were turned and I said to MiL that they'd have to lock the dogs out all night because we were bringing our cats up to stay, how they'd feel about that?

I'm so curious to see what they do about the behaviorist, I sent them a link for a local lady (an hours drive - remember they are extremely rural) as they said their nearest was 3 hours away.

I'm concerned as much for our family, as for the dogs, if something happens out and about that really will be game over. And I'm very worried that while the bite may be a nervous response, it may become the standard response to any situation.

clam Fri 04-Jan-13 11:00:40

This is insane! I cannot believe that your mil stood on your doorstep, looking at your damaged face and eye and, after everything you've clearly said on the subject, STILL asked if the dogs could come in.

bigbuttons Fri 04-Jan-13 12:13:14

They will not change. They will not take their dogs to see a behaviourist either.

festivelyfocussed Fri 04-Jan-13 12:45:30

MTB I admire your assertiveness with keeping the dogs out of your home. I hope DP was supportive.
angry at your MIL's attitude.
I wil need regualr updates now for the next few months at least grin

ProphetOfDoom Fri 04-Jan-13 13:09:17

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 13:28:09

I really don't expect them to take the dogs to a behaviorist, as even basic puppy training was met with "she (dog) didn't like it, so we stopped going". But I will give them the chance to see if they do decide to take those steps, but I won't nag, and if they chose not to it's their choice of dog over GD and there's nothing I can do about it.

BTW - money is not a problem to them at all - but I have just deleted a paragraph rant of what MiL is like with money - another thread, another time, maybe

DP is supporting me in this, but if I weren't there I can't say hand on heart that he wouldn't have let the dogs in, I will just have to see how the next few months go.

We won't be seeing them now until the w/c the 28th Jan, so by then they should have at least one training session under their belts, but if nothings been done, I;m going to tell them not to bother coming down as DD and I will not be meeting them (because of course the dogs will be coming too)

But I will keep you all updated and we can hop (against hope) that they will actually do something about it.

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 13:31:00

One thing that does keep going through my head - when I first spoke to MiL about this - she said she couldn't have the dog PTS, out of the blue, I;d been saying that I wanted him to have a proper assessment and to see if some behavioral therapy would help.

The first thing SiL said when I spoke to her was "I don't think he needs putting down, but..."

I can't help but wonder if MiL told SiL that I had said the dog needed to be PTS? and if so, why? she's played games before, but I really just cannot be bothered anymore and haven't risen to them for at least the last year (and trust me I wanted to sometimes)

fubbsy Fri 04-Jan-13 13:39:14

It's a way of avoiding talking about the real issue. You want to talk about DD's safety and dog training, they divert the conversation by bringing up this big scarey thing.

MTBMummy Fri 04-Jan-13 13:40:44

I hadn't seen it like that - very good point

DontmindifIdo Fri 04-Jan-13 17:49:09

yep, you then have to say "I don't want the dog put to sleep either" and now the conversation is about that, not about how they have allowed their pet to badly hurt their DIL and their DGD.

If she starts on about not wanting the dog put to sleep just answer with "Well, if you really mean that they you either have to keep the dogs on your property at all times with no visitors, or you're going to have to deal with the bad behaviour, because if it bites someone outside the home and family it's not going to be your choice."

MTBMummy Tue 15-Jan-13 10:05:49

Just wanted to pop on and give you all a small update, I heard via SIL, that the PIL's have been in touch with a behaviorist that SIL recommended, she knows her stuff so I trust SIL's judgement on this.

They haven't been to see her or had any classes, but have picked up the phone and spoken to the behaviorist. We're supposed to be meeting them at the end of this month (with dogs of course) but I don't see how they expect that to go ahead when they only have 2 weeks to sort their dogs out.

Just to add it came up in conversation with DP that he "couldn't believe his mom had actually come to the door with the dogs expecting them to be let in" I think he now gets it, and sees that I'm not BU. He's actually suggested that there's no point in meeting the PIL's as they wont have had time to do anything to alter the dogs behavior.

One thing I wanted to ask for advice on, if anyone is still following this thread, a friend suggested muzzling the dogs when we're around, I've never had to muzzle a dog (well over 10 years ago) are they distressing for the dogs, if it's one that still allows them to eat and drink?

oldraver Tue 15-Jan-13 10:15:51

My parents used to use a soft muzzle on their dog in the past...Its a long time ago and I cant remember why as I hadn't seen the dog show any signs of being bitey but DS was very young and the dog excitable and untrained.

It didnt seem to do him any harm. I'm no expert

DontmindifIdo Tue 15-Jan-13 11:58:49

I think you need to refuse to go and refuse to take DD to this meeting if the dogs will be there. Could you compromise of meeting for lunch somewhere (ideally a restaurant where it's clear the dogs won't be allowed in!) - they can leave the dogs for a few hours at least, can't they?

notfarmingatthemo Tue 15-Jan-13 12:12:54

My friend has one of these her dog can drink with it on. She uses it when she has people round that the dog doesn't know it stops him nippy people/kids. Her dog can get over excited. The dogs seams happy with it on. In fact I think he is happier with it on than not on

SpicyPear Tue 15-Jan-13 12:46:36

A muzzle need not be distressing if the dog is slowly introduced to it and trained to accept it. Just shoving one onto a dog that has never worn one before could, depending on the dog, be very stressful for them though. It would stop someone getting hurt, but might actually make the dog's behaviour worse if it is not introduced very carefully.

MTBMummy Tue 15-Jan-13 14:00:23

I think as with all dog related things, slow and steady is the way to go, I'm going to suggest a muzzle and see what they think.

I'm really not keen on meeting up with them, and no they don't go any where without their dogs, they just expect people to be happy with the fact that their dogs go where ever they do.

They'll be traveling a good few hours to meet us, we'll be staying at a Centre Parc and although we've said that dogs are allowed in the park, they have to be on lead, which was viewed as unacceptable, so we're now going to have to traipse off somewhere to meet them for lunch, and interrupt our holiday, which is for my side of the family as my mom passed away at the end of last year and this is a break we're doing because we had planned to do it with her, and we all need some down time to relax.

There is a part of me that just wants to rant about them and their dogs, but I know it's not going to achieve anything, so I'm desperately trying to remain calm and reasonable.

NaturalBaby Tue 15-Jan-13 14:54:54

If you're going on holiday for your side of the family then I wouldn't meet up with your IL's at all. It sounds like you need a holiday!

SpicyPear Tue 15-Jan-13 15:21:57

They won't even put leads on them? Oh for goodness sake.

Stop being nice about it and bending over backwards to accommodate this madness! They chose to have dogs and restrict their access to people and places. You really have made more than enough effort for them.

MTBMummy Tue 15-Jan-13 16:51:19

I really do need a break, it was a crap end to the year last year, and this year hasn't been much better so far. But anytime I take for myself is seen as being selfish. (but that's another long post in itself)

They will use leads mainly when walking on roads because the dogs are terrified of cars, but as soon as they're in a field they're off teh lead, even though they have no recall at all.

A few years ago, we went for a walk with them locally, but explained the dogs couldn't go off lead due to all the young sheep, MIL had such a moan about it, but we couldn't take them to the meadow as the one dog has a real thing for balls, and will just chase off after one, no matter what, it's embarrassing really to be out with them and the dogs.

5Foot5 Tue 15-Jan-13 17:03:49

Yikes! What sort of dog owner thinks it is OK to let their pets off the lead when there are young sheep around shock

metimeatlast Tue 15-Jan-13 17:44:26

MTB, wow, having read your post, WTF are your inlaws playing at?????
To cut a long story short, in november of last year, my 11 year old dog, who was of the nicest nature ever, very well behaved, much loved and had been a part of the family since she was 6/8 weeks old...Unprovoked attacked and bit my daughter in the face. On the advice of the doctor who treated my daughter, and the vets who had always treated and dealt with our dog, she was very sadly PTS that same evening. The vets advice was that once a dog bites somebody in the face, they mean to harm. Some 10 weeks on, my 3.3 DD still has the scares of the 5 teeth marks one her cheek which was extremely close to the eye. DD is un-phazed by what happened, yet every time i walk past any dog, on a leash or not my heart goes into my mouth. Bobby dogs is very sadly missed, and we have yet to scatter her ashes, but its just to hard and raw to face at the moment. I totally agree with your stance on not being near these dogs, nor would i allow them into my home!! and to think that your PIL are even considering taking them to centre parcs?? where there will be people happily going about their business? noisey excited children playing?? that is just a pure sin and a disaster waiting to happen!!! Im so sorry that both you and your DD were attacked by these dogs, but please please for the safety of yourselves and all of the people going on their holidays do not allow PIL to enter the centre parc!

We are a very doggy friendly family, and always have been, but the safety of humans MUST come first

MTBMummy Wed 16-Jan-13 09:22:11

MeTime I'm so sorry to hear about your dog, it's the saddest thing ever when you have to put a dog down.

I definitely will not be allowing them into CP with us, just need to figure out how to get out of meeting them for lunch, if I kick up a fuss I'll be accused of stopping them from seeing DP and DD.

MTBMummy, it sounds to me as if you are being backed into a corner here by manipulative people.

"They'll be traveling a good few hours to meet us" - well so fucking what angry. You are ON HOLIDAY, why do they get to interrupt that? Because that is what they are doing.

" if I kick up a fuss I'll be accused of stopping them from seeing DP and DD."
Who is going to accuse you? Them? They've shown themselves to be fuckwits, their opinions and accusations count for nothing. Your DP? Tell him to get a grip. The only person stopping them from seeing DP/DD are THEM! angry

metimeatlast Wed 16-Jan-13 10:18:52

to be honest i think that no matter what you suggest you will be on a loser, unless they can leave their dogs in a car whilst you eat, it would mean that you and DD are in theirs and the dogs company, would it be possible that you could all meet up at SIL at some time in the future for a family gathering instead? ( surley they would also insist that the dogs stay in the car as their house is full aswel)
You are in much need of a holiday, and you dont want anybody else to spoil that!
Also, personally, i think i would make sure that i looked into skype for you and them (if they are pc literate) to try and make them feel like they are intouch and it would make sure id have to be near those dogs less good luck, its not a position id like to be in hmm

mistlethrush Wed 16-Jan-13 10:29:30

Muzzles: I have a muzzle for my dog. I only use it when she's racing with other lurchers - because lurchers have a tendency to be mouthy, and are very thin skinned, and its much better to avoid any issues. She really doesn't notice it (because she's too busy wanting to chase the lure!). Its not a fabric one - those can constrict the mouth and stop panting (and is the sort the vets used to have to use on another of our past dogs)(although she managed to get it off on occasions) but a basket that sits on top of her nose and gives her plenty of room to pant - if water was deep enough she would be able to drink with it on. Other lurcher and greyhound owners put muzzles on their dogs not because their dogs are vicious, but they are prey driven and some of the small dogs look incredibly similar to the sorts of things they might hunt, and who wants an accident to occur?

I have also seen people with muzzled dogs where the dogs eat anything and everything - to stop them eating disgusting things when out on walks. Again, not because they are vicious.

However, a muzzle will not necessarily stop biting - I know of some people whose dogs have caught a rabbit despite the muzzle. And some dogs are very good at getting them off. A muzzle would make you safer - but it wouldn't mean that you were safe.

BabsAndTheRu Wed 16-Jan-13 10:43:46

I can't believe your PIL's attitude, that is awful. We have a wee border terrier, the kids adore it, but kids being kids give him a hard time through the years. They are disciplined for it and don't do it anymore, but once my eldest fell on him, dog thought he was under attack and tried to bite him. I was distraught and phoned the vet in tears to ask advice about rehoming, the vet was fantastic, really caring. Suggested a muzzle, which we tried and it worked a treat, could you suggest to your PIL's that they use a muzzle or you won't be back with DD. They have to step up and take responsibility for their dog, you'd think they'd want to protect their grandchild. Good luck, also this is one of those situations where you don't have to worry about hurting their feelings, its unacceptable and they need to know.

Yfronts Wed 16-Jan-13 11:05:02

Put your foot down. Say you don't trust the dogs so want them on a lead - so center parks is a great location. Refuse to entertain meeting them elsewhere.

DontmindifIdo Wed 16-Jan-13 11:24:24

You need to get your DH to tell them that actually you can't interupt your holiday to see them and that until they deal with the dog issues he does'nt want his DD anywhere near the dogs, which if that means he doesn't get to see them, then so be it.

You need to stand firm on this, how much more evidence do you need that these dogs are dangerous? They can chose to put their dogs above their relationship with their DS and DGD, it doesn't follow that you and yoru DH have to make the dogs a priority at all. They might want to take the dogs everywhere, but they don't have to, so you can point blankly refuse to have anything to do with them when the dogs are around. The way they live their lives is their choice.

Grapesoda Wed 16-Jan-13 11:32:01

Your ILs are being ridiculous.
You've offered to meet them at CP. if that's not good enough then they don't get to meet up.
It will be good practice for you and DP being assertive and for ILs toeing the line.

Bibs123 Wed 16-Jan-13 12:42:58

I had this issue with my SIL's dog the other day, we were only visiting for the day but the dog was snarling everytime my DD aged 15 months walked past. SIL did NOTHING and made comments that her dog would never bite, despite the noise. I believe that a dog is growling as a warning and was not prepared to risk letting the dog bite my DD. As SIL did not react, I sat down in front of the dog to stop my daughter going anywhere near it. I also cut the visit short as I felt uncomfortable with the dog being there and annoyed that she didn't put it in another room. The doctors will not ask about reprting the dog, in fact no action could be taken without the owners consent as the dog is in its own house/on private land. I think dog owners should take more responsibility for their dogs behaviour, if it is aggresive, it should be locked away from visitors.

CalamityKate Wed 16-Jan-13 14:04:23

I taught my dog to accept a muzzle because when she was young she would steal grooming brushes when we visited my mates yard. I used a clicker and she would quite happily dive her nose into it after a few sessions, and after that putting the muzzle on became a signal that she was going to get to go out and play with my mates dog.

I hate the soft ones but the basket ones that they can pant/drink while wearing are ok. You just need to check for rubbing frequently.

Honestly you're far too nice. These people are away with the fairies!

CalamityKate Wed 16-Jan-13 14:15:50


No idea if that will work, trying to post a link to great article...

CalamityKate Wed 16-Jan-13 14:21:46

Ooh wonder if I can make it clickable?! (Playing on iPad)

CalamityKate Wed 16-Jan-13 14:23:11
CalamityKate Wed 16-Jan-13 14:24:28

Bibs123 you need to get your sis to read that! Not that it sounds as if her dog is particularly tolerant anyway.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Wed 16-Jan-13 20:35:11

How about a dog gate or child gate separating you and your child from the dog at all times?

MTBMummy Thu 17-Jan-13 08:19:50

Thanks for the replies everyone, just going to read the link.

Well I have planted the seed of having muzzles, but no great surprise PIL's are not keen, they worry that it will oppress the dog (I mean seriously? WTAF)

DP is trying to convince them not to come to meet us, but they're every stubborn.

The thing that I find so funny, is that they are the strictest parents I have ever met, and I know the first dog was bought as a child substitute, but they have not disciplined them at all.

MTBMummy Thu 17-Jan-13 08:22:47

The dog gate thing sadly won't work, we already have to keep the gate up in the kitchen so the cats can come in and eat - but our kitchen in miniscule so we can't spend time in there, and we only have our living room downstairs, and the bedrooms upstairs, so there's really nowhere to put the dogs.

At PIL's house, we'd need probably 3 gates, to cordon off an area, as they're in a bungalow, which is very open plan, and I suspect PIL's would object to the dogs not being able to go into their favorite spots (and if we let the dogs have those, we'd all be shut our in the hall or bedrooms, but it's worth a try and I'll see what they think.

MTBMummy Thu 17-Jan-13 08:27:52

That's an interesting article, because I grew up with dogs, I've always taught DD to be wary/respectful of them, to never just approach them, always ask if you can pet them, and even then, still let the dog sniff and approach you first, and she's really good, even with the neighbours dogs that she see several times a week.

I'm trying to keep this up with DD and trying not to let my concern cloud her view of dogs, I still want a dog for our family, and I don't want DD to be afraid, but I really want to make sure she knows how to treat animals, and that as a human it's her responsibility to look after animals.

mistlethrush Thu 17-Jan-13 09:20:16

Interesting article - and we did that with our last dog and DS. Our last dog was absolutely wonderful with him - but she knew that we were on her side and DS would be prevented from (or immediately told off if he did something, even if accidental) doing anything that wasn't in her best interests. We were also very careful to make sure that he learned how to approach other people's dogs and asked them first before going to stroke them (not easy when you have a very good dog yourself). It has worked, and people now comment on how good he is, which is very positive.

ProphetOfDoom Thu 17-Jan-13 09:39:49

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2rebecca Thu 17-Jan-13 10:14:28

I don't understand why you agreed to meet the inlaws when you are on holiday with your mum, unless your mum really likes their company. I would have stuck to staying within centre parks for lunch if you feel you had to invite them and if they don't want to bring the dogs because they would have to put them on a lead then they don't come. There are very few places you would go for lunch with young kids where they'd allow dogs bouncing around.
Why are you arranging part of your holiday around your inlaws? They are the ones putting their dogs before everyone else. Leave them to their dogs.
Why is your husband finding it so hard to tell his parents that you won't want to leave centre parks as you'll have paid alot of money for it and you'll see them another time when they've trained their dogs but not that week as you'll be busy at centre parks doing stuff. Do your inlaws try and gatecrash all your holidays? I'd stop telling them what you are doing.

MTBMummy Fri 25-Jan-13 11:04:43

Well - DP has tried to talk them out of it, but they're just not listening, so it looks like we'll be seeing them :-( One plus is that I'm hoping there'll be no mobile signal so we won't be able to firm up any plans - and I won't be chasing DP to do it this weekend.

Just to clarify, it's my mums partner and my sister who are joining us as it was my mum who passed away late last year, not my mum who is a widow.

PS does anyone know what the mobile signal is like near Keswick?

MTBMummy Fri 25-Jan-13 11:08:42

Oh and just to add, for those of you who believe in luck - can I ask you to hold thumbs for me on Saturday as I'm going to have various images taken of my eye and have tests done to see if the damage is permanent or if it's still healing (still very fuzzy in that eye)

Cornsyilk99 Fri 25-Jan-13 11:09:40

do not go leave centre parcs to meet them - that's just ridiculous shock

really OP if you weren't so used to their entitled behaviour you would see this demand for what it was.
If they insist on gatecrashing your holiday they should go to you.

Cornsyilk99 Fri 25-Jan-13 11:10:56

Just text them.
We are at centerparcs. There is a starbucks (or whatever). We will meet you there at xxX time and then turn off your mobile.

BlueberryHill Fri 25-Jan-13 11:21:38

Good luck with your eye, hope it is OK. Do your ILs know that you are having tests on it this weekend to see if the damage is permanent. Have you actually had a proper apology from them about this?

Oodsigma Fri 25-Jan-13 15:26:09

Mobile signal v patchy in the area!

Whocansay Fri 25-Jan-13 15:41:25

I don't really understand this 'trying to to talk them out of it' business. Just say no. If your dh is that desperate to see them in the middle of his holiday, he can go on his own. It is unreasonable of them to demand a visit in the middle of your holiday even without the dangerous dog saga.

I'm really sorry about your eye. The fact that their dog may have caused you prolonged damage / pain, makes it all the more shocking. Your dh really needs to relocate his spine and protect his family.

DontmindifIdo Fri 25-Jan-13 16:15:36

I would refuse point blank to go. You are having tests to see if their dog has perminately damaged your eyesight and they still don't give a shit?These people don't actually like you - why would your DH put up with his parents making it clear how little respect for his own DW they have???

If your eyesight is perminately damaged make sure they know - andI'd be telling them you won't be seeing them with the dogs regardless of what training those dogs have ever again. Spell it out to them if that means they will not see their DGD until their dog is dead, so be it, it's their choice. Stand firm, stop compromising, imagine it was your DD who was having tests to see if her eyesight was damaged by this dangerous animal?

Inertia Fri 25-Jan-13 16:42:18

"They're just not listening so it looks like we'll have to meet them".

No. That isn't how it works in families- at least not in families that aren't controlled by selfish gits and their vicious, over- indulged dogs.

You DO NOT have to meet them. Why on earth would you - you are going away with your family. How do you think your mum's partner and your sister are going to feel when you vanish for the day ? FFS, you and DP have to stop giving in to your in-laws. Realistically, what are they going to do ? Comb the whole of Centre Parcs and drag you all to the nearest pub which welcomes savage dogs ? Cut contact ? Fine - you don't want to place yourself or your child in further danger anyway.

Please stop pandering to these people. They are not your only family. And bowing to their demands is not fair on your family who want to spend time with you all after the loss of your mum.

If inlaws were that bothered about seeing you , they'd kennel the dogs for visits, or put them on leads to call in to CP. But it isn't about wanting to spend time with you; it's all about them and the dogs calling the shots and keeping you in your place (i.e. some way below the dog basket, in their view).

I'm sorry for the loss of your mum, and I hope your eye is not permanently damaged - that sounds worrying. But please don't think that a grandmother willing to take risks with your family's safety to avoid inconvenience to her dogs is better than none.

Flisspaps Fri 25-Jan-13 17:09:22

You don't need to meet them.

DP has told them not to come up. Not your fault if they don't listen and make an unnecessary journey.

And if they say you are withholding 'access' to DD and DP(!) then point out that the option to put the dogs on the lead and enter the park to see you was given to them but they declined it.

Bobyan Fri 25-Jan-13 17:20:01

Your Pil and the dogs aren't the problem, your Dh is. He clearly puts them above you or your dd...

MousyMouse Fri 25-Jan-13 17:25:28

don't meet them.
you need your holiday. and they need to get a grip and a trip to the vets for some serious business.

good luck for tomorrow, I hope your eye is fine and there is no permanent damage.

BlueberryHill Sat 26-Jan-13 20:56:29

OP, how is your eye? Hope it has gone well for you today.

Arithmeticulous Sat 26-Jan-13 21:04:35

Shame you left your mobile charger behind when you left for CP, wasn't it.

How did the test go?

I hope your eye is ok.

CoffeeandDunkingBiscuits Sat 26-Jan-13 22:06:13

How is your eye, op?

Lindsay321 Sat 26-Jan-13 22:16:18

If a dog went for my eye ball and did damage there would be no f*cking question about me making a complaint to the police. It will go for someone else (you again). It tried to attack your DD.

Your in-laws sound like utter imbeciles. Just tell them to f*ck of wither their f*cking horrible dog, you never want to see it again (with your good eye).

I really hope you've not sustained any lasting damage but why on earth are you being so f*ing pleasant to them? I don't even know you and I care more about your eye than they do!

Next time they're round "accidentally" cut or burn them then show no f*cking notice of what your done whatsoever. No apologies, no lift to the A&E, no further mention of it.

Newyearoldmum Sat 02-Feb-13 13:08:58

How's your eye op?

lunar1 Mon 04-Feb-13 10:47:08

Have been thinking of you, how is your eye?

MTBMummy Mon 04-Feb-13 14:47:28

Hi all, sorry for the lack of update, I got so busy prepping for holiday I didn't get a chance to update you all, and thankfully I genuinely did have no mobile signal while at CP (although DP did, which is how we got the news that "sadly" PIL's would not be coming to meeting us due to damaging their car by hitting a pot hole in the dark and wrecking 2 wheels - such a shame)

My eye is ok, no serious damage, although I still have some bruising, but they reckon it should clear up with time, I do need to go back in 3 months to make sure it's still all doing well, but they say it was a close call, if it had been fractionally deeper we could be talking glasses for the rest of my life or worst case blindness - so a massive sigh of relief from me :-)

PIL haven't even asked how the test went, even though I made a point of mentioning it to them.

I may be repeating this, so I do apologise, but what I have discovered is that beside the initial phone call, PIL's have done nothing about actually arranging training for the dogs, or taking any steps to improve their behavior. I did have a bit of an argument with DP over this, and it actually brought me to tears, not something that happens often, but he just doesn't seem to get it, he understands why I'm upset, but he seems to be suggesting (without saying as much) that we just have to accept that the dogs are a liability. I'm really not sure where to go from here with him, and I explained that I was shocked that he wasn't supporting me more, but he feels he is.

fubbsy Mon 04-Feb-13 15:53:39

Glad to hear your eye should be ok in the end MTBMummy

Actions speak louder than words. Your pil are clearly have no interest in training their dogs and are not worried about the way they behave. They have shown that the dogs are more important to them than you are sad

Is your dp saying that he wants you/dd to go anywhere near those dogs? If so, he is being massively unreasonable. You were seriously injured and nearly lost your sight. If I were you, I would not go anywhere near those dogs ever again.

How does dp think he is supporting you?

BlueberryHill Mon 04-Feb-13 16:02:25

Glad your eye is healing.

Your PIL are showing quite clearly that the dogs are higher in the pecking order than you and your DD.

It is very likely that someone else will be harmed by these dogs, including your DD. Ask your DH to imgaine looking his daughter in the eye in the future and apologising to her for the scars / damage to her eyesight because he didn't protect her when she was young and instead decided to appease his parents.

I think that you have to go it alone and protect your daughter if he isn't going to support you, you cannot let those dogs, or any dogs your ILs have, anywhere near her.

Inertia Mon 04-Feb-13 16:15:47

Good to hear that your eye is getting better. And while I wouldn't wish any kind of car accident or damage on anyone, I bet it was a relief not to have to deal with PIL on your weekend away.

Lack of support from your DH is worrying. Clearly PIL are not going to train the dogs. He says that you have to accept that the dogs are a liability- my response to that is that yes, they are, and for that reason I wouldn't be putting myself or my children at risk by visiting PIL with the dogs at any time. Don't back down here- you've had a very traumatic injury and were lucky to avoid permanent damage. The next injury the dogs cause might be more permanent.

oldraver Mon 04-Feb-13 16:26:15

Does your DH realise that had it been a general member of the public the dog attacked and injured it could of been very serious for the dogs ? No-one would then accept the dogs are 'a liability'

5Foot5 Mon 04-Feb-13 17:02:32

but he seems to be suggesting (without saying as much) that we just have to accept that the dogs are a liability.

I think that you have to make it clear that while he may be prepared to accept it then you will do no such thing. Therefore, while he may choose to be around his parents dogs when they are unrestrained you will categorically refuse to be or let your DD be near them.

DontmindifIdo Tue 05-Feb-13 10:05:27

I think that you need to say that you accept it is his parent's choice if they want to train the dogs or not, and you also accept he is right, they are a liability, but as parents you have a duty to DD above all else, as if you are accepting those dogs are a liability, then she can never be in the same house as those dogs until they stop being a liability. If that means you can't see PIL until the dogs die because they won't visit without them, then so be it.

It's your PIL choice what they do with their dogs, but your DH has to make it clear to them what the consequences of that choice are. If he's not prepared to do it, then you will, but you will not allow him to put your DD or you in danger.

Then refuse to discuss it further, or back down.

MTBMummy Mon 18-Feb-13 15:18:14

I know I've not been on here a while, but we've had a break through, they're actually having the dog assessed, by a professional. I don't know what will happen after that if anything, but I'm so pleased they've actually done something, even if it is a small step, at least it's in the right direction.

Hopeforever Tue 19-Feb-13 07:54:03

Great news! It's a start
How is your eye?

MTBMummy Tue 19-Feb-13 12:04:20

Thanks Hope - I'm slightly amazed they are actually doing something

My eye is doing ok, vision is still a bit blurry and I'm going to probably have to use drops in it for a while still, but overall it looks like it's going to go back to normal - which makes me so very happy

BlueberryHill Wed 06-Mar-13 13:03:15

MTB, I'm so glad your eye is healing, I'm shocked at how little they seem to consider other people.

NotSoNervous Wed 06-Mar-13 16:07:21

How's your eye op?

MTBMummy Fri 08-Mar-13 08:13:58

My eye is getting there slowly thanks for asking, I'm still using the drops, and it doesn't get blurry now, unless I've had a heavy day of spreadsheets, then my vision starts to decline in that eye.

On the good note, I believe the behaviorist is coming round next week to assess the dogs - so we'll see how it goes.

I've avoided having to deal with MiL since this happened, but she emailed me to let me know. I do hope they can work things out with the dog, but won't be rushing up to see them or inviting them over any time soon.

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