To be unsympathetic with pregnant friend

(498 Posts)
creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:13:35

Two people I know were in an on-off relationship which neither took very seriously. Last year, due to contraception failure, she became pregnant. From the beginning, he made it clear he was not interested in being a father and offered her money and support through an abortion. She decided she wanted the baby, and at which point he stated that he wanted nothing to do which the future child and ended all contact with her. This was at about 6 weeks in and she is now 36 weeks pregnant.

Throughout the pregnancy she has sent him constant updates and invitations to scans etc all of which have gone unanswered. She was still assuming he would change his mind, when this week she heard the news that he is moving abroad just after New Year.

She is now apparently devastated and wondering how she will cope. Yet it was her decision to continue with the pregnancy and she did so knowing that he had no intention of being involved.

I am trying to be sympathetic but given that he made his feelings very clear from the beginning, I really don’t think she has anything to complain about. She made the decision to continue with the pregnancy knowing that he was not going to be involved. AIBU.

whistlestopcafe Fri 28-Dec-12 14:15:17

YABU. You don't sound a great friend.

scrumpkin Fri 28-Dec-12 14:16:53

Your poor friend sad

valiumredhead Fri 28-Dec-12 14:17:35

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BigShinyBaubles Fri 28-Dec-12 14:18:38

Its understandable that shes scared but with supportive family and friends she'll manage.
Plenty of people dont want children but accidentally get pregnant and the men come around to the idea, maybe she thought it would be the same for him?
Maybe you need to be abit less judgemental and more supportive

quoteunquote Fri 28-Dec-12 14:19:39

He also knew she was pregnant and made a choice to walk away, just because he demanded she had an abortion, that she didn't have, doesn't mean he can pretend he isn't involved,

He is involved, his child has done nothing wrong and doesn't deserve to be abandoned, he needs to face that now, and do everything that is right for that child.

So does he want to be know forever as a person who abandoned his child?

Montybojangles Fri 28-Dec-12 14:20:13

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skullcandy Fri 28-Dec-12 14:20:21

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HappyJustToBe Fri 28-Dec-12 14:20:35

YABU.

skullcandy Fri 28-Dec-12 14:21:29

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Icelollycraving Fri 28-Dec-12 14:22:25

My dh was not particularly over the moon understatement when I got pregnant. I continued with the pregnancy & he had a change of heart a week before I was due. It was ridiculously stressful but I knew I wanted ds.
Perhaps she was hoping for the same secretly. She will need a lot of support.
Yabu.

MimiSunshine Fri 28-Dec-12 14:22:26

She's probably had other people in her ear telling her "that he'll come round once he meets the baby" she's probably been imagining a romantic reunion in the delivery room.
Yes she's been a bit of a fool, but go easy on her, she's delayed her heartbreak over their 'break up' and now is panicking.
Just remind her that she choose to go ahead and that took some strength so she'll be ok and she'll have plenty of support from friends and family

SayMama Fri 28-Dec-12 14:22:44

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2048 Fri 28-Dec-12 14:22:54

Hi creamtea
You ANBU, what does she expect you to do? I'm sure you will be around for her, has she thought of adoption? It's a bit late to wonder how she will cope.

FrancesBabyHouseman Fri 28-Dec-12 14:22:55

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peaceandlovebunny Fri 28-Dec-12 14:23:24

you are not being unreasonable at all.
she made this choice for herself.

you might want to be friends, you might not, but you can't pretend that the man didn't make himself clear. she's on her own and she chose it.

sorry. scary. but her choice.

NotAnotherPackedLunch Fri 28-Dec-12 14:24:24

YABU.
I hope she has some actual friends to support her as well as the type who slag her off.

YABU and not very nice. I can't imagine feeling this way about a real friend.

They are equally responsible for the pregnancy. No one can make him have a relationship with the mother but he is a real jerk for abandoning his child, who didnt' ask for any of this.

What a coincidence he's moving abroad just when he would have to start paying child support.

Go ahead and be a bit exasperated with her if you want, but unsympathetic? Really? wow.

Wishfulmakeupping Fri 28-Dec-12 14:25:40

Wow you sound lovely OP, can't you just be supportive to your 'friend'? If not then she is better off without you or the loser dad in here's and the child's life

MammaTJ Fri 28-Dec-12 14:26:17

I think 'friend' is a poor description of you tbh!!

Seriously, do you think she should have had an abortion then?

Will you expect to be allowed near the baby you wish dead?

She needs support and understanding and instead you are saying she should have had an abortion on his say so.

Womans rights? Heard of them? You know, where the woman gets to decide what to do?

Had she had an abortion and been traumatised by it, would you be supporting her through that?

kinkyfuckery Fri 28-Dec-12 14:26:53

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yougottaputmeon Fri 28-Dec-12 14:26:53

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YABU. She cannot help but feel devestated. So she got pregnant. So it was a mistake. His mistake too and it doesn't mean that she should be punished for it just because she decided (bravely I think) to go through with the pregnancy.

Maybe she did think he would come round to the idea, maybe she has feelings for him and hoped he would for both her and the baby.

She can cope (I did) with helpful friends and family. You should be supportive of her as she will need all the help she can get. Even just a shoulder to cry on.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:27:24

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Wishfulmakeupping Fri 28-Dec-12 14:28:02

Her's even

redexpat Fri 28-Dec-12 14:28:17

I understand where you are coming from, but really I think you should try and be a bit more charitable. It's much easier to see things in black and white when you are not directly involved. He should pay maintenance though. Perhaps you could help your friend by reading up on the rules and regulations? Having a baby is a major change in your life, adn it must be really tough to go through it alone.

atthewelles Fri 28-Dec-12 14:28:44

YABVVU. Not everyone agrees with abortion or feels it's the right decision for them. That does not mean the father can simply walk away from his responsibilities or refuse to support his child. He knew a pregnancy could be the result of the relationship and this child is now his responsibility just as much as your friend's. What a horrible attitude.

LikeAVirginMary Fri 28-Dec-12 14:28:54

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creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:29:10

Women have a right to go ahead with a pregnancy against a man's preference. Men can't have a say over abortion, it is definitely a women's right to choose. But if they do so, they should not respect the man's right not to be involved.

If it was the other way round and men were forcing pregnancy or abortions on women it would not be acceptable would it? So why should women be able to 'force' a decision on men?

Families come in all shapes and sizes, and just having a mother is perfectly fine in my book.

emeraldy Fri 28-Dec-12 14:29:43

YABU. If you consider yourself her friend you should keep your opinions to yourself and support her. We all make misjudgements when it comes to men.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 14:30:20

YANBU. If he wanted the child and she didn't, the "her body her choice" brigade would have been making clear how little it had to do with him. So her body, her choice, her responsibility.

He hasn't exactly tricked her.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:31:28

peaceandlove - it may have been her choice but abortion is never an easy choice to make. Why does this woman deserve mean minded judgement from the OP, who calls herself her friend?

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:32:25

Actually OP, you sound like a 'friend' I once had, who I binned because she wasn't really a friend.

Montybojangles Fri 28-Dec-12 14:32:35

I imagine (as most people would I'm sure) that she thought he might actually come around to the idea that he had created a life. The fact that he is leaving the country changes things for her massively.
I understand that she chose to continue this pregnancy, but one would hope the bloke could "man up" and face his responsibilities. Now I doubt she will even be able to get any financial support for the child from him. He is a louse and is clearly running away from his responsibilities, that's why she's so upset/panicked.

You are not being very nice or a friend, you are BVVU ( hope that's more acceptable MN)

Mosman Fri 28-Dec-12 14:32:36

I hope he's moving to a country where the CSA can still chase him, what a tosser.

Mosman Fri 28-Dec-12 14:32:51

I hope he's moving to a country where the CSA can still chase him, what a tosser.

EverybodysSnowyEyed Fri 28-Dec-12 14:33:05

if two people have sex, a risk is that a pregnancy may occur. the only way to ensure that doesn't happen is to not have sex.

by having sex your male friend ran that risk. it is not up to him to then lay down his conditions ie have an abortion or i'm off.

unlike your male friend, your female friend doesn't have that choice. unlike your male friend that little life is growing inside her and that makes the decision to abort or not much harder.

he may not have wanted the pregnancy to continue but he has a responsibility to that baby

Also, at 36 weeks pregnant I think most first tie mums are beginning to wonder how they will cope!

Cut her some slack

Viviennemary Fri 28-Dec-12 14:33:14

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Fakebook Fri 28-Dec-12 14:34:30

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creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:35:20

I'm happy to support her in being a new mum, and have being doing so. I would have equally supported he in an abortion. Her choice.

But she was always going to be doing this alone, and she should have accepted this from the beginning rather than imagine a fairy-tale ending

GlaikitFizzogTheChristmasElf Fri 28-Dec-12 14:36:25

He still has responsibilities. Just because he wanted her to have an abortion doesn't give him a get out of jail free card. I hope he will support his child. If not I hope she pursues him though every court in the land.

Support your friend, but never, ever show yr smugness and "I told you so attitude". Even in a relationship I had "how will I cope" thoughts when pregnant. It is a normal thing.

tabulahrasa Fri 28-Dec-12 14:36:38

'So why should women be able to 'force' a decision on men?'

Unless she forcibly extracted semen and inserted it herself she's not forcing any decision on him. He made the decision to have sex with her and pregnancy is the consequence of that.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 14:38:26

'So why should women be able to 'force' a decision on men?'

Unless she forcibly extracted semen and inserted it herself she's not forcing any decision on him. He made the decision to have sex with her and pregnancy is the consequence of that.

You could use the exact same argument where a man is trying force a woman to go term, as long as he didn't rape her.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:39:41

Creamteas - have you ever been in love with someone and failed to see things properly in perspective because of it?

Wow I have to say I'm pretty gob smacked with the amount of posters saying that she hoped he would come round to her way of thinking, or once she had the baby, he'd come round to it.

What a risky strategy that is, trying to manipulate a persons feelings.

She doesn't need "I told you so" advice though, op. She needs practical support. If you don't feel you can offer that then for her sake it's probably best that you break off contact, for both your sakes.

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:40:59

tabul That's rubbish. They used contraception (they both state this), so neither of them wanted a child. She made a decision not to have an abortion. He (rightly) has no say in this, which mean that it is her decision alone.

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 14:42:27

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FivesGoldNorks Fri 28-Dec-12 14:43:08

"If it was the other way round and men were forcing pregnancy or abortions on women it would not be acceptable would it? So why should women be able to 'force' a decision on men?"

Because it's her body, and it's women who bear most of the brunt of pregnancy, childbirth and childrearing. As is clear in this case.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:43:14

In any case, some people do change their mind and come around to the idea of a child sometimes.

ReindeerBollocks Fri 28-Dec-12 14:43:28

She clearly thought that this would save their relationship. Regardless of her views on abortion (do you even know what they are OP?) she has made her decision.

It's hard enough having a planned baby in a stable environment - but to do it alone, completely alone is terrifying. She is understandably upset that the father of her baby is moving away, even if he made it clear that he wants nothing to do with her - it's still a connection to a man she clearly has feelings for.

Personally I hope she has a great family round her who will support her and the baby.

So, are you a judgey family member or new girlfriend of the bloke? I seriously doubt you are her friend, you sound far too callous to genuinely be her friend.

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:44:32

I'm really amazed at the amount of people that truly believe that women should not take ownership of their decisions.

tabulahrasa Fri 28-Dec-12 14:45:00

They're both adults who chose to have sex knowing full well that no contraception works 100% of the time.

She gets another choice after conception because it is her body, but they both had the same original choices, to have sex or not. He chose then.

quoteunquote Fri 28-Dec-12 14:45:07

If it was the other way round and men were forcing pregnancy or abortions on women it would not be acceptable would it? So why should women be able to 'force' a decision on men?

OP, You do know the reason we have sex? (the bit where a male puts his penis in a female's vagina, and ejaculates),

We have the act of sex primarily for reproduction, yes it's fun, but that's just good packaging in order to encourage us to mate.

so the point that you opted in or out of the reproduction side of sex, is at the time it is happing, either you use contraception at that point or you don't,

Unless you can't read, have never spoken to another person everyone knows contraception is not 100% safe, so if you know this and still have sex, then you can't complain when sperm reaches an egg, that is the first fact of life.

This man must have no friends or family, or someone would of sat him down and told him how foolish he is being.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 14:45:48

"Because it's her body, and it's women who bear most of the brunt of pregnancy, childbirth and childrearing. As is clear in this case."

And if they want to bear that, they can make that choice. Doesn't mean they should be able to force it onto someone else.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:46:26

I wouldn't say she was manipulative - the OP thinks she knows what their relationship was like when they were together, but I don't see how. You don't know what he said to her - perhaps he was manipulative to get what he wanted out of it? He may have pretended to love her.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 14:46:32

Why is this even your problem, OP? What if we all said, yes, you're right, she's stupid - what would you do with that?

Fwiw in response to your question about why a woman decides whether or not to keep a baby, that's because it's inside her body and anything she chooses, abortion or pregnancy, is ultimately going to affect her far more than the bloke.

I think that's how it ought to be.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 14:46:42

"I'm really amazed at the amount of people that truly believe that women should not take ownership of their decisions"

That's the crux of the feminist movement, all of the rights, none of the responsibilities.

lunar1 Fri 28-Dec-12 14:47:38

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YANBU at all and I can't understand the majority here who think you are. You said the relationship wasn't serious. You said the ex made no bones about not wanting to be involved and has stuck to that. I think your friend was naive as hell to think he'd come running back.

You're obviously not casting her off or rubbing her dubious choices in her face so I don't see the problem.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 28-Dec-12 14:47:51

I thought it was common knowledge that contraception can and does fail?

Men should be taught this in schools. It seems to come as such a shock to them, poor wee things.

If you have sex you have to accept that this might result in unwanted pregnancy. If you are not ready to deal with the consequences of that then you need to not be having sex.

Your friend deserves better than you and this tosser. You can't just abandon your own child because it is inconvenient. What does he intend to do about financial support?

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 14:50:08

I think you're missing the point somewhat okaynow. The woman also has to be the one to go through a termination - the physical effects, the emotional effects. The man gets to walk away from the whole thing whatever the woman decides.

FrancesBabyHouseman Fri 28-Dec-12 14:51:10

okaynowitstheseason
"I'm really amazed at the amount of people that truly believe that women should not take ownership of their decisions"

"That's the crux of the feminist movement, all of the rights, none of the responsibilities."

WTAF? shock

So now he probably tricked her into having sex, by manipulating her feelings?

From the ops first post, I think it was pretty clear where he stood from the start.

I imagine there would be uproar if we insinuated that she had lied about taking contraception, purposefully sabotaged a condom and planned to have an "accidental pregnancy" so why are we fabricating stories about the man in the picture???

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 14:51:40

Elphaba, yes but imo that's not the entire point iyswim. I agree the friend has been a bit naive and unrealistic with her expectations. But my issue is, what is the OP going to do about it and why is she having a go about it on here?

That's why she's coming across as not very nice. She's being totally judgmental, and even if she is right, it's not an attitude I'd want in a friend I was confiding in.

mumagain33 Fri 28-Dec-12 14:52:21

YANBU. completly agree with oknowitstheseason. The her body her choice brigade are certainly up in force on here! They BOTH made a fuck up, he choose not to be apart of it SHE took the resposiblity to carry on regardless. Why should the bloke get the blame all the time? Why should he be forced to look after a child he dosnt want just because she thought they would all set up home together as i bet she did! Sick of girls pulling this stunt! Some one tried it on my brother putting stuff on facebook about him not caring and sending scan pics and it turns out DNA says it wasnt even his!! Your friend needs a reality check big time, tell her u will be there to support her with the baby night and day but she has to face facts, she chose to walk down this path 'alone' so she needs to get her head around it sharpish! Silly girl!

twentythirteen Fri 28-Dec-12 14:53:15

This child wasn't forced on him. He had sex, a known cause of children.

She's going through something tricky. Perhaps she had hoped beyond hope that it would all work out, but that's not a crime. I hope she has support around her.

CailinDana Fri 28-Dec-12 14:53:32

I'm not sure exactly what the problem is OP - are you saying you're against her feeling afraid and lonely? That she has to shut up to suit you?

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:53:47

No contraception is 100% safe, yep that is why we ave access to abortion.

She is not morally against abortions, but decided not to have one because of her age. I don't have a problem with that decision at all. I am happy with her about the pregnancy. But this decision was made in the full knowledge that her Ex wanted nothing to do with it. Again her choice, and I'm happy to support her.

But she needs to stop blaming him for the decisions she made.

MammaTJ Fri 28-Dec-12 14:53:59

Women have a right to go ahead with a pregnancy against a man's preference. Men can't have a say over abortion, it is definitely a women's right to choose. But if they do so, they should not respect the man's right not to be involved.

Are you serious?

So to steal a phrase from JK, a man gets to have sex, not put anything on the end of it and if a pregnancy results, take no responsibility?

Maybe you should wander over to the thread where the mum is worried her son has stopped using condoms because his GF is on the pill and tell her it is fine, if she gets pregnant it is not his problem. hmm

Montybojangles Fri 28-Dec-12 14:54:01

bin I think we mean that just as she has come to realise that ther is going to be a baby they BOTH created, so he hopefully would come to realise. No starry eyed, happy ever after, just a" I did the deed, I have to deal with the consequences" kind of change of thinking.
creamteas you still don't get it. The only 100% safe method of contraception is no sex. We all know this, so everytime anyone has sex, they accept this risk. Both are equally responsible for the life created, regardless of the abortion issue.

FrancesBabyHouseman Fri 28-Dec-12 14:54:50

mumagain33 Because he decided to stick his dick inside her fadge an ejaculate his sperm inside her that's why! hmm With sex should also come the emotional maturity to deal with the possible consequences in an adult fashion.

ImperialSantaKnickers Fri 28-Dec-12 14:55:50

OP if you had asked for help in supporting a friend who had been living in cloud cuckoo land for the last few months and is now landing with a big hard thump I think you'd have avoided the flames.

Too many of us still think Mills and Boon romances are true, sounds like she was one of them...

All you can do is avoid the subject when she starts on it and help her focus on the future, not wallow in the past and angst about the might-have-beens.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 14:56:48

Do we ban abortion for cases of consensual sex where there's no health risk, on the basis that the woman "chose" to have sex and risk a pregnancy so should lose all further decision making powers like the man does?

But she is taking ownership of her choice -- she's having the baby.

It's not like she's at 36 weeks and suddenly saying, oh no, I don't want it anymore. She is going through with it.

Her ex has decided he doesn't want to be in a relationship with her and that's fine, I don't think anyone is saying he should have to be.

But legally and morally, he does not have the choice to not be a father -- he is one. He chose to have sex knowing that contraception is not 100% reliable and his partner might get pregnant and choose to have it. Now he needs to take ownership of his decision.

mumagain33 Fri 28-Dec-12 14:57:05

Also i would like to add.. if this contraceptive mishap had happened why wasnt there a trip to chemist next day for a morning after pill??? sounds like she wanted the pregnancy... its not fair to trap!

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 14:57:06

I have had a baby by a man who said, Okay, we can have a baby - and then decided it wasn't the right time, which tbh it was a bit soon, and started behaving like a complete arse because he didn't want it. And he was miserable, and I could understand that.
And he walked away, and I told him to go. We've barely seen him since and our child is now 5.

I took all the responsibility. I asked the CSA not to chase him up. I didn't want reluctant involvement. I was, and still am, sorry that he has a child he doesn't know, and almost feel as if I stole this baby, but then he behaved so badly about it, after we had had unprotected sex, and I'd become pregnant, that it was kind of a two way issue.

I am very happy not to have him in our lives and hope that ds isn't missing out too much. But at no point did I force the bloke to do anything he didn't want to do - he OTOH marched me to the abortion clinic when I was barely able to walk and hadn't eaten for a few days, to try and make me get rid of the child. Among other things.

People react in differing ways to pregnancy. Cutting a bit of slack can be important but really, the woman takes the ultimate responsibility as she is carrying the child and cannot walk away.

Iamsparklyknickers Fri 28-Dec-12 14:57:23

Yabu.

Clearly she was in denial at the end of her relationship and has delayed her reaction till having to face the fact that he's off abroad.

Don't most people have a situation they've buried their head in the sand over at some point? Can you really not empathise?

Imho, this has nothing to do with termination and more to do with her realising she really is on her own with this. As her friend you should be able to but on a pair of non-judgey pants and comfort her over the break-up. That's what she's just realised. Unless she's started making noises about wanting to terminate when she had the chance, you've no right to presume that's what she would have done without her head in the clouds.

Even new mums with a husband rubbing their feet have wobbles about coping. Don't be so sanctimonious

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 28-Dec-12 14:57:25

'it turns out DNA says it wasnt even his!!'

You saw the DNA results then? Dd1 is not her father's either according to the DNA results. I guess they sent us different copies of the results because that's not what my copy says.

It is the woman's choice and yes, the man needs to suck it up and get on with it. It's not ideal, but it is the risk you take when you have sex. You can't just turn your back on your own child because "it's not fair". Well, you can, if you're male. You shouldn't be able to.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 14:59:28

Creamteas I do wonder if you have never been pregnant yourself or encountered, personally, the issue of whether to have a termination.

You don't have to answer that but unless/until you have, you cannot understand that it is not an easy option for most women.

If you have then well, that may be your experience of it. But it isn't everyone's by any means.

I booked about 5 and cancelled each one. I wanted to do what he wanted and yet I could not. To me, it felt like drowning a kitten.

BuggerLumpsAnnoyed Fri 28-Dec-12 14:59:38

life is not as black and white as you think it is. Its not as easy as just having an abortion. she may of been much worse off if she had one. and obviously she was hoping he would change his mind. a lot of decent men do. you sound quite cruel.

SantaKittenClaws Fri 28-Dec-12 15:00:20

Your friend got pregnant last year, and is still pregnant now?? Is your friend an elephant?!

If you are indeed for real then I'm glad you're not my friend op. A little empathy wouldn't go amiss....

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 15:00:27

"suck it up" "get on with it" "risk you take when you have sex".

Hope you don't post on any threads where a woman is contemplating an abortion, doin, or are you just incredibly exist in your attitude towards parental responsibility?

CailinDana Fri 28-Dec-12 15:00:35

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FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 15:00:48

As the sister of a disgusting excuse of a human being ( a 'man' that has helped to produce two children that he has abandoned) I find it utterly shameful that this man is not even considering a financial contribution to a life he helped create. You don't get to go around impregnating women and washing your hands of the bit of fun you leave behind. Every person should be responsible for their own ability to create babies. If you don't want a child then do your utmost to make sure you don't make one. "She told me she was on the pill etc etc..." is no excuse. In the words of Jezza "Put something on the end of it." There are some thoroughly stupid people out there. BOTH sexes.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that they should never have has sex. Just not realistic.

And in a fair world he would say "I support any decision you make" however in the real world he offered her cash to eliminate the "problem", however distasteful it sounds, from the outset it implies he wasn't interested.

That she thought she could win him round - completely delusional.

Does she have practical and financial support,op? Are you cutting her off now?

SarahWarahWoo Fri 28-Dec-12 15:02:27

Yabu and not supportive. Your poor friend, I wish her luck and hope that she has some good friends around her and enjoys motherhood.

skullcandy Fri 28-Dec-12 15:02:39

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BuggerLumpsAnnoyed Fri 28-Dec-12 15:03:09

and they both made the decision to have sex and she is taking responsibility for their actions. she just sounds upset about the way it's worked out.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 28-Dec-12 15:03:50

If expecting a man to parent his own child is sexist, then yes I am.

The woman is the one who has to go through the procedure, she gets to chose.

If a man is determined to not become a father, then he shouldn't have sex. He cannot rely on a woman having an abortion if pregnancy occurs and you cannot just decide to walk away either.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:03:51

My own sister did something like this the other day...expressing her disdain and anger that I kept my baby, when I 'could have had an abortion' - she's never been pregnant, never had an abortion. Or a child.

She just doesn't get it.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 15:04:23

'The her body her choice brigade are certainly up in force on here!'

No, but women colluding in misogyny against others certainly is. hmm

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 15:06:05

rooney I have 4 DCs, have had a termination and 2 miscarriages, oh and I am adopted so experienced quite a lot of the reproductive possibilities.

I really don't understand the assertions that providing sperm is the same thing as being a father. Mothers and fathers are the people that raise and care for you, and to me this does not necessarily have to mean biological connection. This is probably because I am adopted.

The man here has no intention of being involved, he made it very clear, so he is not going to ever be a father.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:06:14

If not her body, her choice, then wtf is the alternative? Strapping down women and removing their babies forcibly? Really?

If men were the ones who had to carry the pregnancy or have the termination, I'd support their right to choose as well. But they're not.

It's basic physiology and human rights.

samandi Fri 28-Dec-12 15:06:53

YANBU. You're trying to be sympathetic but it's difficult when she's wanting something that was stated very clearly was never going to happen.

FivesGoldNorks Fri 28-Dec-12 15:07:36

'The her body her choice brigade are certainly up in force on here!'

and?

TheFallenMadonna Fri 28-Dec-12 15:07:46

Thing is, owing to biology, men only get a choice in one part of the reproductive decision making - whether to have sex or not. After that, it's not a decision they get to make.

You make the decision to do something that might lead to a baby, you follow through on it if the baby comes along. You don't get to opt out on being a father because it isn"t what you wanted.

And it might seem unfair that men only have one decision point, and women get two, but then it seemed unfair that I had to be the one to take the risk of pregnancy if DH and I wanted children. But that's how it works.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 15:08:08

"If expecting a man to parent his own child is sexist, then yes I am.

The woman is the one who has to go through the procedure, she gets to chose.

If a man is determined to not become a father, then he shouldn't have sex. He cannot rely on a woman having an abortion if pregnancy occurs and you cannot just decide to walk away either."

Applying double standards to the choice is, so you are.

If a woman is determined not to become a single mother, then she shouldn't have sex outside a committed long term relationship. She can't rely on him having a change of hear if pregnancy occurs, and you cannot just tie him up in the living room either,

CailinDana Fri 28-Dec-12 15:08:28

Creamteas - the point is not that he made himself clear, the point is that your friend is upset and needs support. If you can't provide that then you need to let her know and walk away, not judge her and expect her to behave according to how you feel.

everlong Fri 28-Dec-12 15:08:33

She shouldn't have presumed he'd change his mind. He said from the off he didn't want the baby. Her choice to keep it. Financially I don't know where he stands.

But if this were my friend I would be doing all I could to help her now. She's having a baby in 4 weeks and could do with support I'd be guessing.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:08:39

Ok Creamteas, then you have an understanding of the issue of abortion and perhaps more than I do.

But I thought you were implying that your friend should have had one, which isn't a very valid answer imo to what she is currently experiencing. I hope that makes sense.

Yes she could have. It would have been an entirely different outcome in every way and perhaps she did not want one.

It doesn't mean she deserves no sympathy now for what she is going through. So on that basis, yabu.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 15:08:49

*change of heart

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 15:09:08

'The man here has no intention of being involved, he made it very clear, so he is not going to ever be a father.'

Well he is a father, whether he likes it or not and should make financial contributions for his child. He should stop having sex altogether if he is not prepared to face the possible consequences of his actions.

TheFallenMadonna Fri 28-Dec-12 15:10:08

I should say that morally you don't get a choice. Men do of course make that choice all the time. And as long as they said they wanted the woman to have a termination, then that seems to give them a get out clause.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:10:29

There will always be double standards in this debate as women and men take differing roles in the creation of children.

It's completely inevitable.

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 28-Dec-12 15:11:22

No one is saying that he needs to continue the relationship with her but he should take financial responsibility for his own child, at least.

No OP's friend shouldn't have banked on him coming back to her but there is a middle way between getting married and staying with a woman you don't love and abandoning your own child, isn't there?

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 15:12:07

Actually OP its sod all to do with you. You obviously can't make peace with your "friends" decision (not that she needs you to). Was your friend supportive of you throughout your terminations? Did her concern come with judginess? Would you have cared about her opinions and what she thought you should do with your own body?

I actually think it's quite telling the OP has said 'yes contraception fails and that's why we have abortion'

I imagine her friend's ex has the same attitude -- if you get accidentally pregnant, that's what abortion is for. And if you decide not to have one, then it's all on you and you can't complain because you didn't get rid of it.

But for many women, abortion is not an easy thing to do. It can be awful, heartbreaking, really traumatic. It's not an easy solution.

The real backup plan for failed contraception is the morning after pill -- not abortion, which not every woman will want to go through.

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 15:13:19

Sorry that should say termination.

VitoCorleone Fri 28-Dec-12 15:14:02

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VitoCorleone Fri 28-Dec-12 15:14:29

*situation

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:15:36

'I imagine her friend's ex has the same attitude -- if you get accidentally pregnant, that's what abortion is for. And if you decide not to have one, then it's all on you and you can't complain because you didn't get rid of it.'

Exactly. It's not as simple as that. Once you're pregnant the hormonal changes it causes are often enough on their own to make the idea of termination unthinkable. And that's before you even go into religious ideas, the physical impact both at the time and in the future, the repercussions to your mental health, the sense of loss and grief.

Not all women encounter these things but an awful lot do. It can take away the actual baby but it can't take away the fact the baby was there in the first place.

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 15:15:38

Rooney I have never stated or implied she should have had an abortion.

I believe that having made the decision to go ahead with the pregnancy in spite of her Ex's clear intentions of not being involved, she should accept that she has full responsibility for the child.

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:16:40

Well thanks for clarifying - but she has no choice but to accept that now, really, does she?

I don't get what you are asking - I think she deserves sympathy however irrational her thoughts/decisions may have been. Your title asks about that, and I've answered it.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 15:17:29

I do wonder what the hell would happen if all of the women who knuckle down and bring up their children suddenly started acting like men and fucking off and abandoning them. What on earth would people say if it was mothers who were leaving their children? "Oh well, it's her choice and as long as she made herself clear to the father then you can hardly blame her and it's his fault"? Somehow, I suspect not.

And I'm sure she will take full responsibility -- she won't have a choice, after all.

That doesn't mean she's not allowed to be upset about it and think her ex is a prize twat.

As Dooin said, there's a huge middle ground he could take between shacking up with a woman he doesn't love and completely abandoning his child.

CailinDana Fri 28-Dec-12 15:18:11

Yes she should creamtea, I agree, but she's 36 weeks pregnant and scared. Can't you have a tiny bit of sympathy for her?

Do you definitely know he won't financially support his child op?

RooneyMara Fri 28-Dec-12 15:19:01

Yes Wallison, quite.

Montybojangles Fri 28-Dec-12 15:19:57

Umm how do you know your pill failed in time for the morning after pill?? It doesn't state condom failure, just contraceptive failure. Maybe he was just relying on the withdrawal method for all we know.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 15:20:21

Wallison

The woman who does what OP's friend's ex have done simply get abortions and the majority on here would be fully behind them in abdicating their responsibility. Coz they ain't evil menz.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 15:22:56

YANBU to wish she had accepted the situation really was going to her doing it alone earlier. But she can't help that she hoped it would be different can she? She decided to keep the baby regardless of his stance but it doesn't make her a bad person to hope that he would come round to the idea.

He's an epic knob for moving away,presumably he thinks he can avoid CSA payments?

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 15:23:42

Thanks, RooneyMara. The world would bloody grind to a halt if women acted the way that this man and others like him do.

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 15:24:51

I don't know about any financial arrangements, nor their exact income. But my guess would be that she earns a lot more than him.

From the conversations we have had, it is not financial support she wanted, but assumed that he would participate in everything from the birth to shared care arrangements. For months, her family, other friends and I have been saying that this is not going to happen.

FivesGoldNorks Fri 28-Dec-12 15:25:14

You know what, life isn't fair
Some men end up paying for children they'd prefer to have been aborted
Some women die in childhood

FivesGoldNorks Fri 28-Dec-12 15:25:39

childbirth that should ahve read
fingers on auto pilot

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 15:25:54

"Thanks, RooneyMara. The world would bloody grind to a halt if women acted the way that this man and others like him do."

A lot of woman do act in this way though. They decide early on they are not ready for parenthood, and they take the decision not to have that responsibility. And they're not crucified on here for that.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 15:27:02

Anyway, OP, you don't sound like a very nice friend, if you can't be sympathetic to a woman who is facing labour and parenthood alone, with the added bonus that her child's father is not just absent but has chosen to move to another country rather than have anything to do with raising his child. He sounds like a twat.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

iwantanafternoonnap Fri 28-Dec-12 15:27:51

Op I don't believe you have said she should have had an abortion. Aren't you just saying your friend needs to realise that the father does not want any involvement and has made that clear right from the very start. That constantly trying to involve him is just going to continue to cause heartache and that is what is hard to carry on being sympathetic about.

I am with you in that she needs to stop trying to involve him and yes it is hard to continue to be sympathetic when she continues to get no response 30 weeks on.

However, my ex has decided to have no further contact with our DS. It is painful and extremely hard to understand why the person who helped you make a child can just fuck off and unless you have been their you can't understand because not only is it hurting you but it will hurt your child too. I am damn sure my friends are getting bored of me ranting about my ex being such a selfish bastard.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 15:27:59

Having an abortion is not the same as upping sticks and moving to another country and refusing to support a child that you have created, nowits.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 15:29:23

There are many many posters on mumsnet who would disagree with a woman having an abortion as she didn't want to take responsibility for the child. They might not 'crucify' her for this, but it's wrong to thing mumsnet as a whole only has a one-way view about parental responsibility.

okaynowitstheseason Fri 28-Dec-12 15:30:53

Would they call her half the things the ex in the OP has been called?

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 15:31:36

'From the conversations we have had, it is not financial support she wanted, but assumed that he would participate in everything from the birth to shared care arrangements. For months, her family, other friends and I have been saying that this is not going to happen.'

Yes, it's easy for you to see that when you were never emotionally involved though isn't it? And what you're effectively saying is that your friend therefore isn't entitled to her own feelings - an odd and rather toxic approach.

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 15:32:38

Having an abortion is not the same as upping sticks and moving to another country and refusing to support a child that you have created, nowits. Too bloody right its not. I hope this lady does a stellar job of raising her baby and should this arsehole ever try to get in contact when the years have gone by he gets told where to go.

Iamsparklyknickers Fri 28-Dec-12 15:36:29

So for the months everyone has been telling her that it isn't going to happen it's been pretty clear she's not really believed any of you?

Now she's finally faced facts and is panicking you've no sympathy? Despite knowing for months she's heading for a nasty crash back to reality.....

Again this has nothing to do with termination, and everything to do with reality smacking your poor friend in the chops along with the nerves every imminent parent feels... Glad you're not my friend.

Maybe you should leave her alone till you can control your 'told you so' attitude. It's the last thing she needs right now.

mumagain33 Fri 28-Dec-12 15:43:11

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FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 15:46:52

Wow. Mumagain what exemplary psychic skills you have... HA!

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 15:47:07

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splashymcsplash Fri 28-Dec-12 15:47:10

Yabvu

2 adults created this baby and both bear responsibility for it.

I hate hearing this misogynist claptrap of fathers being less responsible because the mother could have had an abortion.

It's disgusting.

IkissedSanta Fri 28-Dec-12 15:49:49

they have had an on off relationship in the past

so I don't think it was unreasonable for her to have held out a small amount of hope that he would change his mind.

also as others have said the last few weeks of pregnancy is extremely stressful many mums new and old wonder how a baby will fit into their lives the responsibility is huge and frightening.

op you said they are both your friends is he more of a friend than her as you seem to be on his side a little more than her.

she doesn't want someone there who says well I did tell you so it doesn't matter if you did a hundred times

she wants someone to hold her hand and say I know you thought he would change his mind and I am truly sorry that didn't happen for you both (her and baby).

that's what real friends do if you cant do that for her I would rethink the title of friend and call it a day someone who isn't going to support her is going to make her life harder. that's not what a friend does

splashymcsplash Fri 28-Dec-12 15:52:20

Also I was in this situation 3 years ago:
Of course you hold out hope, even if it is irrational, pregnancy hormones can make you somewhat emotional!

I never saw abortion as an option. You may do, but your friend clearly doesn't.

WeAreEternal Fri 28-Dec-12 15:52:39

FWIW I totally agree with your opinions OP.

I have a friend who got pregnant from a casual sexual partner, he told her he wasnt ready/had no interest in having a child and wanted her to have an abortion.
She chose to keep the baby and never spoke to him again.

Her son is now 8 and has never met his 'father' and my friend has never heard from him nor tried to contact him, he clearly has no interest in having a child and she has never had any interest in having him in her sons life. And IMO they are better off for it. (I see from Facebook that he is now married with a young son of his own so clearly he is not regretting not being a father to my friends child)

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Fri 28-Dec-12 15:53:11

He helped to create that child, why does he get off scott free?

What would you have said if the man wanted to keep and raise the baby but the GF wanted an abortion? What if the man said he'd support her through the pregnancy and then raise the child with no input from her since she didn't want it. Then the GF went and had the abortion anyway. <- happened to a very good friend sad

If you say that's completely acceptable for her to abort even though the aby was very much wanted by one of its parents then it's completely acceptable for the man the OP is talking about to walk away after he made it clear he wanted nothing to do with having a baby. She could have also walked away from the pregnancy...

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 16:02:14

Nothingis - no she couldn't just walk away from the pregnancy whether she decided to have the baby or a termination.

Abortion is not a form of contraception - why do you think it's as simple as that?

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 16:07:33

Why do people struggle so much with the concept that the woman is the one emotionally and physically attached to the pregnancy from the outset? The same is simply not applicable to the man whatever happens even though I agree it is very sad for a man who wanted their child and could never have it.

I would never have a termination, because I know I couldn't do it. I thought about it once, but it is not for me. I guess your friend is the same. Support her, she needs friends right now.

AlwayswinterneverXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 16:12:01

NothingIsAsBad - it's acceptable because the OP is having to carry the baby currently and would have had to have a procedure on her own body to abort it, so she gets the say, not because of the impact on the baby but because of the impact on her/her body, THAT'S the difference. As far as the baby goes both parents have no (moral) right to walk away from it if one parent needs/wants support and that applies to the mother as well as the father. It would be just as bad imo if the mother gave birth to the baby then walked off leaving the father to do all the parenting himself.

The reality is BOTH parents agreed to the pregnancy when they had sex (however small the risk is of contraception failing it still is a risk and if you don't accept it you abstain) so both owe the baby and the other parent a duty of care and should stick around. An abortion should be a joint decision but the mother gets a veto purely because it's her body that is involved - but that DOESN'T mean that if she uses that veto the father can ignore his responsibilities. He made his choice when he slept with her, if she'd have chosen an abortion he'd have been relieved of parenting duties but he has no right to expect that to happen just because he's changed his mind about his own decision.

FellatioNelson Fri 28-Dec-12 16:13:43

Flippin' heck. confused Who is on duty at MNHQ tonight? There are sparks flying out of that delete button.

I suspect this thread was created to cause angst and nothing else [cynic emoticon]

jessjessjess Fri 28-Dec-12 17:40:30

YABVU. With friends like you, who needs enemies? She needs you to be her friend and support her. You can be sad for her and sympathetic despite having seen the situation coming, surely? I take it none of your other friends ever make mistakes, ever?

Fakebook Fri 28-Dec-12 17:44:45

Baah Baaah.

Fakebook Fri 28-Dec-12 17:46:20

Hobnob, I thought that. In my first post that was deleted I asked the OP how her friend got pregnant last year, yet she's 36 weeks pregnant. Hmm.

yaimee Fri 28-Dec-12 17:47:35

After being in an almost identical situation to this a couple of years ago, I can understand why she is upset, but I think her feelings will probably change once her baby is born, mine did!
It's him who will be missing out and she should remember that.
I hope that she has supportive friends and family who will help her out, particularly in the difficult first few months!
The thing about the man opting out is that he can't just opt in again, if he has made the decision to have nothing to do with his child then she shouldn't force him into it (for the sake of her child, not the man, as the child should only have people in its life that want to be there) as for the man, he's opted out, so lets hope he stays away now, because the last thing the child needs is him waltzing back in when he feels like it!

Megan74 Fri 28-Dec-12 17:54:28

YABU.She is just hoping for a father for her baby. I think you should focus your displeasure on the man who has shirked his responsibilities. No he doesn't have to be a father in the true sense but he does owe it to show some care towards his child and financial assistance at least. He shouldn't have had sex if he wasn't prepared for the possible consequences.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 18:05:32

'I'm really amazed at the amount of people that truly believe that women should not take ownership of their decisions.'.

I'm not.

OP YANBU. Your friend gave this man no options, now he is giving her no options. It really is tough. Although I probably wouldn't spell it out to her quite so starkly.

As always, bad news for the child either way.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 18:09:55

OP you sound like a cowbag. This happened to me and I have a lovely 4 year old dd. Thanks to the support of my friends and family I have enjoyed single motherhood. Yes; the situation is far from ideal but it is not your friend's fault that he ex is a looser. Why on earth should she have an abortion. Judgy pants much?

mumagain38 Fri 28-Dec-12 18:10:28

Yes of course we all seen results , pride of place Hung up on wall !

maddening Fri 28-Dec-12 18:10:42

He took the decision to potentially have a baby but hopefully decrease the chances by having protected sex - if he definitely did not want a baby he should have not had sex.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 18:11:08

Oh yes; and my dd is very happy. Your friend has every right to be scared and devastated. I was; didn't stop me from being a good mum and even if she had a doting dp she has every right to be anxious about motherhood.

peaceandlovebunny Fri 28-Dec-12 18:13:12

i am shocked at how many mners think a woman who conceives irresponsibly is right to try to drag the man into acting as father when he does not want to do it. and how unsympathetic they are to your position, o p. just goes to show that you can't always rely on mners to show common sense.

AlwayswinterneverXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 18:15:12

peaceandlove - did the man not conceive irresponsibly too?

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 18:16:26

BTWW; my ex moved abroad and is stuck there...praise the Lord! I sent him some photos of dd and he was very remorseful of his decision to leave but he is 'stuck' there apparently. TBH I don't give a toss what his excuse is. Your friend will be better off; woithout him and friends like you.

Pochemuchka Fri 28-Dec-12 18:16:42

Apologies if I've missed something - havent time to read whole thread.

YAB completely U
Your friend needs support not your judgementalness about how she should have responded and dealt with things.
I would imagine it has been a really hard road for her, regardless of whether he 'made his feelings clear'.
If you don't feel you can support her then walk away and let her real friends and her family pick up the pieces.
The last thing she needs is someone like you as a friend.

Oh and I hope you're never put into a situation like this.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 18:18:15

peaceandlove I think the man in question might have had something to do with the pregnancy. They usually do.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 18:18:39

This woman is not actually your friend is she.
If she is, I have to say I think it is unreasonable to not have sympathy for her. Just because her bf made his views clear doesn't mean she would't hope he'd change his mind or be upset when it was clear he was moving away. She'll be needing lots of support I would have thought. Wtf are friends actually for? I have sympathy for her and I've never met the girl.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 18:20:16

Your op sounds as though it might have been written by one of HIS friends rather than HERS.
Is that the case?

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 18:22:09

Yes PeaceandLove because the poor poor man is such a paragon of virtue...

The OP clearly views her "friends" circumstances with contempt and yet its obvious to see just what a shirker of responsibility this man really is.

My brother tried to pull the "I was tricked..." line out of the bag too. This girl is facing up to her actions and their consequences. Any decent adult would do the same.

yaimee Fri 28-Dec-12 18:23:46

peaceandlove not everyone who conceives accidentally has conceived irresponsibly. Unless I have missed something further down the thread the op said that they conceived due to a contraception failure. And even if they didn't, the man was just as irresponsible as the woman.

WildWorld2004 Fri 28-Dec-12 18:29:20

I think the guy has a right to say that he doesnt want the baby. The reason contraception is used is to prevent pregnancy and infections. Neither wanted to have a baby.

If i fell pregnant through contraceptive failure and the guy said he didnt want to be involved i wouldnt force him. I would get on with my life and not give him a second thought. And no way would i want money from him.

He made his wishes clear and she made her wishes clear. I think it is better if he isnt involved, i mean is it fair on the child having someone there who isnt interested.

The woman needs support and help and no 'i told you so's'.

HairyGrotter Fri 28-Dec-12 18:31:15

YABVU...I was in your friends position, however, I was accepting of the father not having any contact or involvement, his choice. DD is now 4 and we are very happy, my friends and family supported me through out, you'd have got a new arsehole ripped had you been a friend of mine.

It's a very emotional time for her, and she is allowed hope that he may change his mind, naive or not.

kickassangel Fri 28-Dec-12 18:34:47

Any adult who has sex should be aware that they could become a parent. Unless they are willing to accept that, they shouldn't have sex. Somehow people think that using contraceptive or just positive thinking will keep them immune from this.

manicinsomniac Fri 28-Dec-12 18:44:11

She made a decision. He made a decision. Neither of them did anything wrong, they just, sadly, had different opinions on what they wanted.

YABU though, your friend needs your support regardless of what you think of her decision.

Very few people thought I should keep my first baby.

Absolutely nobody thought I should keep my second.

Luckily, everybody supported me when I decided not to listen to any of them and to keep both and they have been wonderful ever since (children now 5 and 10).

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 18:48:34

manic I've never said she shouldn't have the baby, and have been supporting her. But she should accept that he did not want this and will not have any contact with the child.

HairyGrotter Fri 28-Dec-12 18:51:54

There will come a time when she will accept that, remember how hormonal one can be during pregnancy?! Once the baby is here, she may a few wobbles about the father, but she'll gain acceptance in her own time

drizzlecake Fri 28-Dec-12 18:57:04

Yeah, she's made her decision to have baby. But wrong to expect the bloke to step up because she has decided to have a baby. Huge decision imo. Not a great idea if support is not around to offer the best outcome for baby and she is expecting others to help out which hopefully they will.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 28-Dec-12 19:00:56

YANBU. If he wanted the child and she didn't, the "her body her choice" brigade would have been making clear how little it had to do with him. So her body, her choice, her responsibility.

He hasn't exactly tricked her.

Tried to think of a way to put my views about this situation across. This explains everything I was thinking perfectly.

bevelino Fri 28-Dec-12 19:10:32

I would support a friend in this situation no matter what. Life is going to be tough enough for her.

Aspiemum2 Fri 28-Dec-12 19:18:09

Yabu. Worse than that you are being rather heartless.
We all panic at the end of the pregnancy (well most of us do). It's natural and to be expected. Of course she's upset, just because he told her he wasn't going to be a father to the baby doesn't mean she was going to accept it straight off.

She was perhaps a little naive, foolish even but this hardly makes her deserving of your cold comments.

The harsh reality is sinking in and she's scared. For gods sake have a heart. She needs to hear what every new mum needs to hear - that she'll be an amazing mum and she'll cope perfectly well because you'll be there every step of the way. If you can't say that to her then you aren't really a true friend.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 19:25:20

'i am shocked at how many mners think a woman who conceives irresponsibly is right to try to drag the man into acting as father when he does not want to do it. and how unsympathetic they are to your position, o p. just goes to show that you can't always rely on mners to show common sense.'

shock what a misogynistic post. Drag the man into it? Oh yes he was happy to be involved during the conception though wasn't he? Suddenly it's nothing to do with him. WTAF?

Pochemuchka Fri 28-Dec-12 19:32:58

What perception said ^^

I can't believe that there are so many people who think that the man's responsibility ends at conception.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 28-Dec-12 19:36:59

D0oinMeCleanin

"Men should be taught this in schools. It seems to come as such a shock to them, poor wee things"

Wow, generalizing and patronising in the same sentence, Well done.

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 19:39:08

I think there is a big difference between a a pregnancy resulting from contraceptive failure and someone who planned to have children walking away.

In the first case, clearly it the women's right to choose what to do. She can decide to either have the child alone or have a abortion. But if she chooses to go ahead, then she should accept that it is her responsibility alone.

This is not the same as a father walking out on children he has chosen to have.

Narked Fri 28-Dec-12 19:39:37

He had a choice. To not have sex with her. He chose to do so.

Hopefully wherever he goes will have a legal system that enables her to get financial support from him for his child.

Wheresmypopcorn Fri 28-Dec-12 19:40:48

So her choice was abortion or him. what a wanker. I am glad she had the strength to love her baby despite him. She sounds amazing. Are you sure you are her friend?

Narked Fri 28-Dec-12 19:41:42

So basically you think if a man uses contraception it absolves him of any responsibility for what happens if that contraception fails?

Really?

EverybodysSnowyEyed Fri 28-Dec-12 19:42:53

You make it sound like having an abortion is an easy choice to make.

Would you be more supportive of your friend if she lived in Ireland so abortion wasn't an option? Or if she had found out she was pregnant at 16 weeks?

Using a condom/the pill is a black and white issue. Abortion is not.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 19:44:09

Why is it the woman's responsibility alone when the man has done just as much as her to create this life? I am actually flabbergasted that you would think this way, especially about someone who you say is a friend. I just hope she has some better friends than you around her, because she'll need them.

Narked Fri 28-Dec-12 19:44:13

'if she chooses to go ahead, then she should accept that it is her responsibility alone.'

That's one of the most ludicrous, idiotic and misogynistic comments I've ever read on here.

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 19:46:54

In the first case, clearly it the women's right to choose what to do. She can decide to either have the child alone or have a abortion. But if she chooses to go ahead, then she should accept that it is her responsibility alone. You are joking right? That is one of the most despicable things I have read on here. What utter bullshit.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 19:47:13

It sounds like this friend would be getting criticised by you whatever she did.

Gets unexpectedly pregnant,decided to keep baby,hopes on/off bloke will stop being a wanker,gets a bit upset very close to end of pregnancy - you criticise her for it

Gets unexpectedly pregnant,has an abortion because she feels she'll get no support from on/off bloke,is upset about for it quite some time - you would be criticising her saying she should have kept it then.

Top friend. Sincerely hope none of mine are secretly like you.

YerMaw1989 Fri 28-Dec-12 19:47:19

Oh FFS people like you are the reason so many men shag anything that rubs against them and feel free in taking no responsibility.

unless you have spent your life under a rock, or in a bizarre cult with no access to education EVERYBODY knows sex has a risk of pregnancy, He doesn't get to completely walk away , i.e not even financial support , I don't even necessarily mean staying together...just take some responsibility. if you are not mature enough to deal with the consequences of sex, don't have sex/ end.

the fact people try to dance round that fact is frankly disturbing.

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 19:50:09

I don't think believing that women are strong and good enough to raise kids alone is misogynistic at all.

I think misogyny is believing women should remain dependent on men if they have a child, which is what most people seem to be advocating!

JustFabulous Fri 28-Dec-12 19:53:09

I do feel sorry that men have no rights whether their child is born or not - and I am talking about men who use condoms - but OP, YABU and not a friend at all. She was hoping for a happy ending. I am sure a lot of women would. It doesn't mean they don't deserve sympathy when they don't get what they wanted.

YABU. The man is a heartless bastard, who didn't think about the life long consequences of a shag and you're a very nasty friend. I hope that at this late on in her pregnancy your 'friend' doesn't see this as it's not a common occurance and she would know who you are and how you're no longer a friend.

Saltytomato Fri 28-Dec-12 19:54:26

You are being a complete bitch. The same thing happened to my mum and I have never met my dad. The father should take some responsibility and not leave your friend to deal with it all.

Narked Fri 28-Dec-12 19:54:29

To say that a man has no responsibility for supporting the child he helped to conceive and putting it all onto the mother because eg a condom broke is deeply misogynistic.

I think the child deserves a father- don't you OP?

Varya Fri 28-Dec-12 19:57:18

What a sad situation for her to deal with, without the father around. Just hope her family and most friends are supportive. XX

Narked Fri 28-Dec-12 19:57:20

And who's suggesting she be 'dependent on men.' We're saying that a parent should contribute financially to the cost of raising their child.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 19:58:01

Creamteas it's not about the woman being dependant on the man though is it, it's abou the child being able to depend on both his/her parents. If not emotionally, then at least financially.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 19:58:07

creamteas - what a disingenuous post. It takes two people to make a baby. That's a fact. You are blaming your friend for a situation that was of two people's making and judging her harshly and saving all your sympathy for the man. That is misogynistic.

FreePeaceSweet Fri 28-Dec-12 20:03:05

I think misogyny is believing women should remain dependent on men if they have a child, which is what most people seem to be advocating!

I don't see anyone endorsing this. Where have you got that from? I'm sure your friend is perfectly capable of raising her child alone but any decent man (well the one doing the ejaculating of his own free will) would at least step up and GIVE HER SOME FUCKING CHILD SUPPORT MONEY! Babies do not begin spontaneously.

I really hope his pecker shrivels and rolls back into his sack never to darken the entrance to any willing lady's bits ever again. Oh and have you ever heard of Elizabeth Bathory? Better friend than you. Humph.

yaimee Fri 28-Dec-12 20:06:38

wewereherefirst not sure if the father deserves a child though.
Having been in this position myself, my overwhelming feeling is that the father of my son does not deserve to be in his life and my son does not need anyone around who doesn't want to be there 100%, he has plenty of people who absolutely adore him, and he certainly doesn't need a man who didn't feel that he had to face up to his responsibilities as a role model.
Not that I think a man should be able to opt out, but if he does, she's better off without the fool!

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 20:10:00

I'm not blaming her in any way, I just think she needs to accept the responsibility she chose to taken on.

I don't think a child needs two parents. I am adopted and so I know first hand that biology is not the key to parenthood, raising and caring for a child is.

You can't make someone be a father, it is an emotional attachment, not a financial arrangement.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 20:18:01

Continuing with an unplanned pregnancy is only a 'choice' for some women, not sure if you've posted about your friend's attitude toward abortion. It's not the same as choosing to get pregnant, which I think you think it is.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 20:19:08

But your thread title says 'AIBU to be unsympathetic with pregnant friend'

Your posts to date lack empathy entirely. If you are her friend your sympathy would be with her, not the guy who has chosen to bugger off.

dickiedavisthunderthighs Fri 28-Dec-12 20:25:17

Exactly this happened to a very close friend of mine. She spent the whole pregnancy miserable; couldn't face an abortion but couldn't understand someone who was 50% responsible for the pregnancy walking away.
The difference is that I, and her other friends, supported her 100% all the way, held her up when she was at her lowest ebb, because nobody can truly judge anyone's choices until they've been in that person's shoes. All she wanted was for her baby to have a dad.
You are not a friend if you see things so black and white.

FutTheShuckUp Fri 28-Dec-12 20:26:36

Urghh- I read the OP a bit too quick and got 'pregnant with unsympathetic friend' and simply had no words!

creamteas Fri 28-Dec-12 20:42:18

So most of the MN jury believe that women should have a choice about whether or not to have a child, as do I.

But men should never have a choice. I think this is grossly unfair.

I have and will support my pregnant friend, but still have no sympathy with this position.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 20:48:14

It is grossly unfair, and I applaud you for saying it despite the judgement of the MN jury.

yaimee Fri 28-Dec-12 20:50:08

creamteas I think the point that you have not yet addressed, which has been mentioned multiple times, is that abortion is not a choice for some. Some women may not feel able to consider it, which leaves these women in a position where they really have no choice but to continue with their pregnancy. And they should be able to rely on the support of the man who is equally responsible for the pregnancy.
If I were you, I'd tell her that any man who will not face up to his responsibilities is not a suitable role model for her child and that she is better off without him anyway!

D0oinMeCleanin Fri 28-Dec-12 20:50:28

The man has the choice not to engage in PIV sex if he is not ready to deal with the possible consequences. No one forced him to have sex with your friend.

EverybodysSnowyEyed Fri 28-Dec-12 20:51:57

Neither of them chose to have this baby. If she had planned a 'mistake' i could see your point, but this was an accident that neither wanted. sometimes when shit happens you have to grow up and deal with it.

in this case that mistake happened at the moment of conception, not at the moment she turned down the abortion. Abortion is a hugely emotive issue and ultimately will have a greater impact on her than him.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 20:53:56

Who is saying men don't have a choice? What are you reading?
You asked if YWBU to not be sympathetic to your friend in this situation, not if she should force him to stay and be a father.
It's a bit depressing now really, this woman is clearly not a friend of yours or you wouldn't even be asking the question.
Would you not have sympathy for a friend who contracted emphysema because they were a smoker or lost their legs because they failed to follow strict advice about managing their diabetes? Actually, don't answer that, I think I already know the answer.

yousmell Fri 28-Dec-12 20:54:01

he is still the father and he is still responsible for the child.

secondly, making a decision about aborting/not aborting a baby isn't like choosing which meal to have in a pub. Emotionally it's huge and has the potential to create serious depression in the future.

If I was accidentally pregnant, I certainly wouldn't feel that I had any 'choice' as I just couldn't abort. I would certainly respect and support my friends in what ever road they took though.

"creamteasFri 28-Dec-12 20:42:18

So most of the MN jury believe that women should have a choice about whether or not to have a child, as do I.

But men should never have a choice. I think this is grossly unfair."

Life is unfair, but the unfairmess is shared out. Only women can die in childbirth - is that fair? Only women can suffer the after effects, is that fair?

(was FivesGoldNorks btw, not sock puppeting)

TheWalkingDead Fri 28-Dec-12 21:01:39

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IncognitoIsMyFavouriteWord Fri 28-Dec-12 21:01:40

shock I am sorry I haven't read the whole thread your first post was enough for me.

I really hope you've had it from both barrels OP.

I also hope your friend gets you out of her life before her PFB comes along.

Your post really disgusted me.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 21:05:10

And why say she is "apparently devastated". I am becoming more convinced that you are a friend or relative of the ex bf rather than of the pregnant woman.

yousmell Fri 28-Dec-12 21:08:50

At the end of the day, the man chose to have sex with your friend. He made that choice and used condoms which have a known risk of contraception failure. He will have know the 1% contraceptive failure risk but had sex anyway. He cannot force a woman to have an abortion to make his life easier. Her body is her body. He should be man enough to respect her decision and take responsibility for his actions.

What you are saying is that the man shouldn't have to live with the consequences of his behavior. He has had sex with a woman and she aborts the baby. The small problem has disappeared for his and he moves on with this life with no baggage in tow. This might be totally different for the woman. She aborts the baby and might feel OK about it but then again she might not. Studies show that she is more likely to have issues with drink, mental health and depression.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 28-Dec-12 21:09:19

D0oinMeCleanin

"The man has the choice not to engage in PIV sex if he is not ready to deal with the possible consequences. No one forced him to have sex with your friend."

So (playing devil's advocate) if a man and a woman are in a relationship where they have both said that they both don't want kids. The man is wrong to think that if a woman has said she doesn't want kids she will abort as part of the relationship?

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:09:56

"Only women can die in childbirth - is that fair? Only women can suffer the after effects, is that fair?"

Bizarre. And, as far as I can see, pretty fair. As only women can give birth.

TheWalkingDead Fri 28-Dec-12 21:11:57

And yes, she has made the decision not to abort but why the fuck shouldn't she have some sympathy for facing a situation that was created with the help of the man who walked away? WomeN have autonomy over their own bodies, thank goodness, but why should they be castigated by people like you for daring to exercise that autonomy? Why has this man escaped your scorn? Because he didn't have a choice ultimately? Well, he had the choice of being responsible for contraception or not having PIV sex and chose not to, but he can walk away, so he won't have 'accept the responsibility' will he?

Point being, the baby that two make effects each in different ways. People are wingeing about the possible ill effects to the poor men, but women are expected to shut up and bear the brunt in the usual course of things.
Don't really see the bizarreness but will attempt to explain further if you need to.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Fri 28-Dec-12 21:12:57

Using the abortion option your friend had as a way to justify and endorse this child's father's decision to fuck off and ignore their existence says as much about you OP as it does about a 'man' who thinks running away is a reasonable/justified response to an unplanned pregnancy. I think the acceptance and normalisation of this kind if action from the STBF is what I find repulsive - not some poor woman devastated that the father of her child doesn't have the guts and backbone she has to face up to their joint responsibility. So YABVVVU.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 21:14:29

You are the guy aren't you?

Or his new girlfriend?

Sister?

Mum?

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 21:15:30

SF - the point is quite logical. Only women can carry pregnancies and give birth. And it follows that they therefore (not the man) have to endure all the possible effects of pregnancy, whether planned or unplanned and also the effects of a termination in a way that will not affect the man in the same way.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:16:27

'but women are expected to shut up and bear the brunt in the usual course of things.'

Really? I don't believe they do. This woman made her choice when she had options, she now needs to get on with her life, the one she chose.

EverybodysSnowyEyed Fri 28-Dec-12 21:17:22

perhaps an abortion isn't an option for her

affects each, not effects each
I'm not saying this situation is 100% fair but that's not the woman's fault any more than it's his. So he needs to just get on with it.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:18:30

'Only women can carry pregnancies and give birth.'

But that is the hand nature gave us, gave me. It wouldn't cross my mind that the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth were unfair. It's not unfair. Seriously.

Ditto fior him. He made his choice when he chose to have sex. She won't have an abortion. Hey, life's a bitch.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 21:19:26

Abortion is not a choice for some women SF (bangs head against brick wall)

JustFabulous Fri 28-Dec-12 21:20:30

Who has said men shouldn't have a choice?
20 years ago I wrote for a magazine how unfair it is that women get to choose 100% if they have an abortion or not but men don't get a say but are expected to cough up. Nothing's changed.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:20:34

Yes, he has made his choice. He's emigrating and wants nothing to do with the child. Life's a bitch.

Yes, that is the hand nature dealt. I don't really see the relevance. Point is, pregnancy, childbirth and parenting do not affect the man and the woman equally. Some bits disproportianately affect the woman. Fewer, the man. This is one of them.

festivelyfocussed Fri 28-Dec-12 21:21:24

Alisvo. Agree.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:21:53

"Abortion is not a choice for some women SF"

Well it sort of is. They just choose not to, which is fair enough.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 21:25:37

No, SF it is not a choice for those who don't feel it was ever an option for them in the first place. They don't 'just choose not to'. They feel it's wrong - since the child has 50% their DNA anyway. And a woman who had a termination feeling it was wrong may end up with mental health issues as a result.

Why don't you think that matters?

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 21:28:13

Let's not forget that abortion itself can also result in complications for women sometimes.

mrslaughan Fri 28-Dec-12 21:28:16

Yes but if they feel abortion is not a choice for them - perhaps they should shut the door before the horse bolts and abstain

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 21:29:44

Mrslaughan - yes and that applies just as much to men as to women.

Male responsibility does not end at ejaculation.

and if men do not want a family and accept the basic premise that they cannot enforce a medical procedure on another human adult...

perception ah but that's OK because they brought it on themselves and it doesn't affect the poor men
hmm

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:33:24

Even if you 'feel' it's not a choice, it still is. They absolutely have made a choice, I'm sorry, but they have. You are veering towards saying that I think abortion was the route she should have taken, I'm not.

I'm saying, she continued with the pregnancy, knowing her BF at the time didn't want it. Now she has to get on with it, just like anyone else in the same situation.

And he has impregnated a woman who has chosen not to have a medical/surgivcal procedure to get rid. And he has to get on with that.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:37:56

Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you! He is getting on with it, but being lambasted for his choice whilst she isn't.

WEll it seems as though his choice is to bear as little responsibility - financial or otherwise - for the baby. Which i disagree with.
That said, we on;y have the OP's POV on this

maddening Fri 28-Dec-12 21:43:16

If you choose to have sex there is always the potential of creating a baby - if it is important to you that any baby created was aborted then he should have discussed that with her first - he didn't and had sex so the consequences are that the woman he impregnated does have the choice.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 21:45:29

'WEll it seems as though his choice is to bear as little responsibility - financial or otherwise - for the baby'

Exactly. This thread is about whether the woman in question deserves hmm the compassion of her friend. Given that the man has shown himself up to be an irresponsible twat.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 21:50:00

I'm sorry, but forced parenthood is not on. I would not be forced into it and neither should anyone else. People who try to force people into parenthood do not deserve compassion.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 21:52:31

How onearth has anyone been forced into parenthood here? The man has OPTED OUT. Personally I am more against forced abortion. My dds father tried to force me into an abortion I refused and he opted out. He does no parenting at all. For me that was better than getting an abortion. Some people might disagree but each to their own.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 21:54:23

^ He is getting on with it

No he fucking isn't. He's fucked off because things didn't go his way and so he's acting like a spoilt little child by refusing to take any responsibility for his child and fucking off to live in another country just to make sure that he doesn't have anything to do with a person he created.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 21:54:49

Sigmund Freud; so people shou;ld abort rather than 'forcing men into parenthood' WTF? Parenting is not always carried out by BIOLOGICAL parents you know. If someone dosn't want their child then they have the option to fuck off but why on earth should willing mum/dad and/or baby/feotus have to suffer for it?

Pozzled Fri 28-Dec-12 21:56:54

" People who try to force people into parenthood do not deserve compassion."

Well, I agree with you there. But I don't remember reading in the OP that the woman drugged the man and forced him to have sex with her. Or somehow stole his sperm, or sabotaged their contraception. I was under the impression that they had consensual sex and their contraception failed- which is a known, possible consequence of consensual sex.

The man chose to have sex, he was not forced into anything. The woman has made her choice to have the baby- she is absolutely within her rights to do this and he has to accept this because at the point that she became pregnant it was no longer his choice to make.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 21:57:47

Boney he would be wrong to think that unless they had discussed it and she said that's what she'd do. There is a massive difference between not wanting something to happen and choosing to terminate if it does happen.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 22:00:18

I personally think that people who try to force their partner into an abortion are the lowest of the low. I was told that if I kept my baby he would leave to which I replied "bye bye then; fine with me." When he realised that I wasn't going to go down his route then he ytried to pressure me in other ways. Scumbag. I'm not after his money; I don't want his maintenance. he is not on the birth certificate ; he can stay fucked off. And my dd is the most georgeous, happy wonderful little girl ever. Would you rather I had aborted her Sigmusnd. And I work so you can't bang on about benefit scroungers either.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 22:01:28

"Sigmund Freud; so people shou;ld abort rather than 'forcing men into parenthood' WTF"

Did I say that? No I didn't.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 22:01:36

I notice the OP has not answered the question of whether she is in fact related to the man in the OP rather than actually a friend of the woman.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 28-Dec-12 22:01:51

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FergusSingsTheBlues Fri 28-Dec-12 22:03:34

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Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 22:04:11

I'd put money on her being the new girlfriend.

I reckon mum or sister would think he wasn't behaving correctly.

Of course he doesn't have to be an active part of the babies life...but he should shoulder financial responsibility for the baby he helped create.

OP also hasn't explained how her "friend" got pregnant last year and is still only 36 weeks pregnant hmm

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 22:04:38

"Would you rather I had aborted her Sigmusnd"

Do you want to take a breather and cease with the emotive bullshit. I get more than a little peeved with people twisting my words. Get a grip and read my words properly, assuming you can.

Well done for working.

Guessing op thinks its 2013, I always get muddled up after vhristmas
And sig is really getting a bit of a bashing here

Nanny0gg Fri 28-Dec-12 22:10:31

But men should never have a choice. I think this is grossly unfair.
They do have a choice.
Take care of contraception or don't have sex.

In the case of contraception failure, you have to step up. If you can't do it emotionally you have to do it financially.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 28-Dec-12 22:11:11

Sigmund - your posts suggest that you feel abortion should be an easy choice to make and that if it's not it's the woman's problem. I think that's unfair.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 28-Dec-12 22:14:13

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas

I think that we are on the same wavelength in that there is a big different between not wanting children and will have them if accidents happen.

superstarheartbreaker Fri 28-Dec-12 22:17:25

I don't think men should be forced to step up except for the CSA. Noone can force a man to be an emotional parent just as noone can force a woman into an abortion. What I would like to see change is the stigmatisation of such women and more social disgust at men who run away in such a cowardly way.

SigmundFraude Fri 28-Dec-12 22:21:43

If my post suggests that I think abortion is an easy choice then I haven't posted clearly. I do not think it is an easy choice, I think it is a choice.

"it was her decision to continue with the pregnancy and she did so knowing that he had no intention of being involved" this was her ultimate choice, so she now has to get on with it. That's all.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 28-Dec-12 22:24:31

Was wondering how long it would be before someone mentioned the words "new girlfriend". How predictable.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 22:26:46

sowhat I said it ages ago!

Could set your watch by me grin

I only said it because the OP's stance really doesn't add up to that of a true friend.

I also suggested she might actually be the bloke,or maybe his sister/mum.

I also mentioned their maths wasn't great.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 28-Dec-12 22:33:08

Ah my bad.

But still, new girlfriends always get mentioned in these sorts of threads.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 22:40:27

^I reckon mum or sister would think he wasn't behaving correctly.

I wouldn't bet on it. My son's father is a total dead loss pretty much all of the time. I still keep things going with his side of the family because they are my son's family and that's the right thing to do. Still, it does rankle rather when his mother says things like "Oh, it's such a shame that [my son's father] can't see his school play" etc - yes, it is a fucking shame, and it's a shame because the only reason he can't see these things is because he can't be arsed. You would think that being a woman and a mother herself she would see that, but no.

iwantbeer Fri 28-Dec-12 22:41:29

"So most of the MN jury believe that women should have a choice about whether or not to have a child, as do I.

But men should never have a choice. I think this is grossly unfair.

I have and will support my pregnant friend, but still have no sympathy with this position."

Why bother to post then OP? You don't care if YABU or not.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 22:44:57

Wallison that's awful! I guess I always assume people will behave as my family would. And how the majority of nice people would.

Your boy doesn't sound like he's missing out on much there. Better the dad not be involved than be a half arsed disappointment to your son. I bet your son thinks the absolute world of you though!

WildWorld2004 Fri 28-Dec-12 22:51:00

I dont think anyone can be slated in this situation.

The guy made his choice to not be involved, the pregnant friend chose to keep the baby, OP sounds like they just want their friend to wake up, realise he isnt interested & get on with her life and not dwell on it.

WildWorld2004 Fri 28-Dec-12 22:53:45

What i think is worse is my DDs dad saying he wanted to be a family & have kids & then 3 years later fuck off & not bother. Id rather my dd hadnt known her arse of a dad than having to deal with the rejection like she has done something wrong.

This guy said he didnt want the child & OPs friend knew this from very early on.

CrazyChristmasLady Fri 28-Dec-12 22:57:52

YANBU.

She made her choice based on an assumption that he would change his mind. He made his feelings clear and now she is panicking because it has finally dawned on her that he meant what he said.

I wouldn't be overly sympathetic either.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 23:03:59

Thanks, Alisvolatpropiis. I have learnt to bite my tongue!

Just saying that not even mothers or sisters would necessarily think there is anything wrong with their son/sibling heading for the hills.

As indeed the OP doesn't seem to think there is anything wrong with her friend buggering off to live in another country and not having anything to do with his child.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Fri 28-Dec-12 23:04:04

Crazychristmaslady you don't know on what basis she "made her choice" (if she even felt there was a choice). All OP has said is she decided she wanted the baby.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 23:06:43

Wallison I realised where you were coming from as soon as I read it,no worries. smile

I have really turned into a glass half full,see the best in everyone type recently! Which is most unlike me generally speaking! grin

CrazyChristmasLady Fri 28-Dec-12 23:26:16

Yes but she decided she wanted the baby even when the dad said he didn't want her to and he wanted no part in it. It can't come as a surprise to her that he is following through on what he told her.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 23:26:25

Ach, it's probably better to be like that - means you are happier.

And I figure my ex's mum probably has her reasons for saying the things she does; maybe doesn't want to admit to herself that her son is a heel, feels awkward with me because of it etc. I know that I would find it difficult if my son ever behaved in such a way towards any children he had.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 28-Dec-12 23:31:54

Maybe she doesn't want to admit it to you because she would feel disloyal? One would hope she can see he is a bellend!

I think I made a deliberate effort to change my mindset after losing my job a couple of months ago. If I wasn't I think I could be in a bad way by now. This is not a forgiving time to be unemployed. It's taught me to appreciate small things more. And to make the best of things.

Wallison Fri 28-Dec-12 23:37:51

Arf @ "bellend"! He is!

Sorry to hear you have lost your job; this is not a good time to be in that situation and I hope that things get better for you very soon. Kudos to you for not being ground down by it.

Narked Fri 28-Dec-12 23:45:08

*'So most of the MN jury believe that women should have a choice about whether or not to have a child, as do I.

But men should never have a choice. I think this is grossly unfair.'*

Men have choice. They can choose not to ejaculate in a woman's vagina if they don't want any risk of impregnating the woman.

'Forced parenthood is not on.'

How is it forced? If you have ejaculate into a vagina there is a chance of pregnancy. You can use protection lo lower the odds of that, but no contraceptive is 100%.

Some of you seem to think that any woman who becomes pregnant in these circumstances suddenly takes on sole responsibility for any child that results, whereas the man has done his bit by using protection, and it's 'unfair' to expect him to do any more. That is truly ridiculous. And misogynist.

I've seen again and again on here many of the same posters arguing that if a woman doesn't want more children it's terribly unfair and wrong to expect a DP/H to get a vasectomy, as if they don't want more DC it's their responsibility to do something about it. Also that refusing to have sex and assume the risk of pregnancy with a fertile male partner is 'blackmail'.

Where is the male responsibility?

FestiveElement Fri 28-Dec-12 23:56:10

The male took as much responsibility as biology allowed him to when he used contraception and was honest with her.

I don't think he should be forced to pay because of a choice the woman made.

It would have been reasonable for him to believe that as his partner wanted to use contraception, then she didn't want a baby either and would prevent that from happening. Obviously she chose not to prevent it from happening, as it her right, but she did so knowing that she would be raising the child alone.

This man is doing the right thing by moving as far away as possible.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Fri 28-Dec-12 23:59:00

So if a woman is pressured in to having an abortion it is wrong (and I agree)....

But yet if a man was pressured in to having a vasectomy that is okay? What if he didn't want that procedure on his body?

I think both of these neither person should be pressured in to doing for SOMEONE ELSE.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:04:15

FestiveElement

Seriously? So you think the mans responsibility ends at ejacualtion then?

I'm really shocked you think like that.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:06:16

I'm talking about the attitude often expressed on here that women are responsible for contraception if they don't want DC and shouldn't expect men to do anything - like have a operation - if they don't want to, particularly if it's the woman who doesn't want more DC.

When the same posters that say that ^ suggest that women who don't have an abortion when contraception fails are in it alone and it's not fair to expect the man to be involved and that - to paraphrase - even a choice not to do something (have an abortion) is making a choice, I pray they don't pass this crap on to their DC.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:07:25

Yes SWIIWC, exactly.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 00:07:45

FestiveElement, are you for real?
The fact of using contraception does not equate to being willing to have an abortion if the contraception fails. Dh and I use contraception. We have agreed not to have any more dcs. However if I became pg and he told me I had to 'choose' an abortion or expect to go it alone, he would quite rightly be viewed as an utter knob.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:09:32

Narked - I am so with you here.

Wtf is with the "well they used contraception but it failed so it is ALL ON THE WOMAN if she choses not to abort" attitude. Less than 100 years ago these men would have been expected to marry said woman never mind support their child.

Why should any woman abort their baby just because the man has decided to abdicate responsibility. Wtf is that about?

Cerealqueen Sat 29-Dec-12 00:10:21

YABU, you can't absolve responsibility aften the deed is done! He has made somebody pregnant and he has a child on the way.
The only way to never 100% avoid the risk of having children is to never have penetrative sex. He is responsible and needs to man up.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:17:32

Apparently if you're male and use a condom all your responsibility ends there. And as a woman you either have an abortion or accept that, as you chose not to, the child won't get any financial support from it's father.

Who knew that condoms abdicated you from any financial or moral obligations! They should really put that on the box next to the kite mark.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:19:38

Yes I'm for real.

I didn't say that using contraception is the same as being willing to have an abortion, I said that it is understandable that the man thought he was having sex with someone who didn't want a baby.

The woman had a choice and she has to live with that choice. The man made a choice to have sex, and he will have to live with the knowledge that he has a child that he didn't want despite doing what he could to prevent that happening. That's not going to be easy for him either.

Yes, he could have avoided having sex, but so could she. She could have taken the MAP, but she didn't. She could have had an abortion, but she didn't. She had more choices, so she deserves more responsibility for the consequences.

TheNameisNOTZiggy Sat 29-Dec-12 00:23:26

If a man & woman have sex they could have a baby. No contraception is 100%, So if the man in this tale was not able to accept that gamble he should not have had sex.... Thus he should support the child he has made.
It is neither here nor there that the mother decided to not terminate, despite knowing he wanted her too. He lost the gamble & created a child so he should grow up & face his responsibilities.
No male should have sex if he can't do that. Simples.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 00:24:54

FE - He was having sex with someone who didn't want to have a baby. But then the baby showed up anyway. Big difference between not wanting a baby and not wanting the one that's already growing inside you.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:26:22

Ribbed, for extra pleasure.*

* Use of this product also provides a justification for not providing emotional or financial support to any offspring that may result from the failure of said product

Also available in Ultra Thin, for the ultimate sensation.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:26:43

In that case, no woman should ever have sex unless she is willing to take a pregnancy to full term then NOTZiggy.

Until a man can force a woman to have a child she doesn't want, it's not right that a woman can force a man to have a child he doesn't want.

If a woman has the right to choose over her body, then a man has a right to choose over his bank balance.

Disappearing Sat 29-Dec-12 00:27:29

YANBU, I don't understand women who hold onto disinterested asshole baby fathers, why would you want someone like that in your lives? It is surely much better situation to go it alone, than to have the spectre of a selfish, resentful man along the way. Any man who can show so little interest in their offspring, can go fuck off right away. I wouldn't want any of his money either.

It's complicated enough having separated parents, when everyone is trying to do their best and get along, for the sake of the children. I can't imagine this situation ever working well.

Cerealqueen Sat 29-Dec-12 00:27:50

Festive, they both made the baby, the baby exists here and now, they both must take responsibilty.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:29:02

Perhaps there should be some kind of legal document that men can apply for in the event that they create a baby despite using contraception.

They could apply to the court and legally state that they do not wish to have a child, and then if at that point the woman wants to continue with the pregnancy, then she is legally obliged to accept full financial responsibility.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:30:52

'Any man who can show so little interest in their offspring, can go fuck off right away. I wouldn't want any of his money either'

Personally I agree with you, but it's not about what the adults think. It's about a child that is entitled to financial support from its father. And who may well seek out that father.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:32:12

Or they could accept that vaginal intercourse carries the risk of pregnancy.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:32:40

Festive I do see where you are coming from. But every adult participating in consensual sex knows pregnancy is a possible outcome. Regardless of precautions taken.

He doesn't have to be an active Dad,nobody is saying that. But he surely must take responsibility for his own actions?

Many women find themselves pregnant and for them an abortion is the right choice, for whatever personal reason. For many it is not. Both times the man has a part to play.

This friend the OP writes about seems damned of she does,damned if she doesn't. Ignoring the odd maths,she is very late in pregnancy and likely to be having a bit of a last minute panic. She probably has ^always* known she would be doing it alone,but this late on is a bit upset about what could have been. About what would be her ideal.

I can fully imagine being in OP's shoes with a friend. It's the way she has written her OP that makes me think she isn't a good friend. In her shoes I would be talking about worrying for my friend,not that she should make her bed and lay in it.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:32:44

The baby only exists here and now because of a choice the woman made.

It is very easy for women in the UK to have an abortion if they want to, right up until 24 weeks. The law gives women plenty of time to decide consider their options. (Personally, I disagree with that, but that's the way it is right now so that is what I base my opinion on)

As a woman has more rights and options than a man, it is only right that she has more responsibility than a man.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:33:48

Or they could accept that vaginal intercourse carries the risk of pregnancy.

Then a woman should do the same and abortion should be illegal after consensual sex.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:34:52

Legally women have more rights.

Emotionally I think women are the same whether they come from the UK,Peru or indeed any country in the world.

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 00:35:34

I will need to rethink my pro-choice stance if this is the bullshit it ultimately leads to - that women are blamed for not terminating.
What people want in the abstract is nothing to do with what they should or will do faced with an actual pregnancy. How would the legal document mentioned be fair to the child in question, when it is born and acquires rights of its own? I don't see how a mother can sign away rights that belong to the offspring rather than to the mother.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:36:18

A woman has more options once pregnant because of biology. Prior to conception I think you'll find they both have equal options. The option of not having sex with someone, the option of using contraception, the option of sexual acts that carry no risk of pregnancy etc

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:38:16

You are anti choice? You surprise me. See my shocked face shock

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 00:39:41

"The baby only exists here and now because of a choice the woman made". I see you are saying that to get round the fact that the baby exists because both of them had sex.
But it's like saying the baby I have next door who's going to keep me up much of the night only exists because I didn't kill it last night. Factually true, but meaningless.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:40:23

It would be no different to a woman using a sperm bank in legal terms.

A woman can choose to conceive a child without a man even being in the room, a woman could, in theory, choose to have a child without ever telling a man he was about to become a Father. A woman could have a child and lie to the child about who the father is.

A woman has a lot of power in this whole thing, whereas a man has none. As long as the law allows women way more rights than a man has, then the extra legal responsibility a woman has should reflect that.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:42:59

A woman has more options once pregnant because of biology

Right. So she can have more of the responsibility as well.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:43:55

Oh no! A woman has more rights than a man about something?

<rends garments>

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 00:45:46

Oh Festive. There's just a whole army of rights-infested single mothers out there aren't there, laughing at how they got one over on all the absent fathers who contribute nothing financially or who let the kids down emotionally. They sit mumsnetting and laughing about how they planned it all.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:46:22

Wtf Festive

I am truly shocked.

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 00:48:49

Whilst we insist on having rights over our bodies old Festive thinks we should be punished for our wickedness by letting fathers walk away.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 00:50:44

Yes, you are right. Because women are the ones who carry babies and give birth to them, devious creatures that they are for engineering things to be this way, it is only correct and proper that they should then for the rest of their lives have sole responsibility for another person. And men, the poor little loves, should be able to walk away from the children they have fathered.

Actually, you know what? Can it. That is already what happens, and it's depressing enough that it does without some fool on the internet pontificating about pre-sex agreements and the like in a ham-fisted attempt to justify the act of an adult person refusing to play any part in a life that he has created.

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 00:50:55

The morning after pill doesn't work - that's what my GP said. She advised me not to rely on it when I asked for it once.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:51:00

There aren't words for how unsettled I feel about what Festive is saying.

Hope none of my friends think like you do.

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 00:54:00

I just think this thread and the fact it was started in the first place shows how people, generally are conditioned to blame women and say 'they had it coming' as is the case in any situation.

I see some of the same people sneering at the concept of feminism. It's a real shame.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:54:35

When a man and a woman are equal in creating a baby, I do believe they should have equal responsibility, both practically and financially.

But in a situation like the OP describes, where contraception was used, they found out early enough for abortion, and the man made it clear he didn't want a child, then it's fine for the woman to decide she wants to keep her baby, but it's not fine for her to expect someone with no option to go along with that.

Obviously, there is no way to prove in every case whether contraception was used and whether a man said he did or didn't want the child, but then that's why we have a benefits system that disregards how much money a mother gets from a father.

I just don't think it's fair that one persons choices can have such a drastic effect on another persons life, especially when that other person has done all they reasonably can to avoid the situation and has made their position clear.

Of course a woman should have the right to say what happens to their own body. That much should go without saying. But a man has just as much right to say what happens to his own life, and I think it's massively unfair that a woman can inflict 18 years of financial responsibility on a man because of the choices she makes for her own body.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 00:56:06

I doubt that Festive has many friends, so you're probably safe on that score.

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 00:57:23

Yes, I really hate hate this attitude that a woman going ahead with an unplanned pregnancy is trying to trap the man.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 00:58:55

ham-fisted attempt to justify the act of an adult person refusing to play any part in a life that he has created.

But this is exactly what already happens because we allow abortion.

It's the double standards that piss me off.

Make abortion illegal and make every father pay for their children. That would be fair.

Or allow women to have abortions but then with that, expect them to take responsibility for the children they have. That would be fair too.

I just don't see why women should have it all set up to suit them, and that's the way things are at the moment.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 00:59:10

perception being of an awkward age feminism has got a bad name.

Particularly after the Germaine Greer announcing Cheryl Cole was "too thin" to be a feminist. A feminist judging another woman on how she looks? Surely wrong? As a naturally small person I was incensed by it.

But recently I have realised that many of my views are feminist and than I am a feminist.

Threads like these make me realise how passionately I feel about certain issues.

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 01:00:55

Inflict 18 years of responsibility?

Words fail me, honestly. It would actually be funny except it wasn't meant as a joke

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:02:29

I don't think a woman going ahead with an unplanned pregnancy means she is trying to trap a man. Not at all.

I think a woman going ahead with an unplanned pregnancy knowing that a man doesn't want to be a father, and then going to the CSA to demand money is trying to force a man into something she would never be forced to do. And that's unfair.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 01:03:10

*not because I like Cheryl Cole especially just because it was a feminist judging another woman purely on she looked.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:03:13

But Festive, it isn't just 'her' baby. They both of them created a child, together. Whether or not the baby was planned, that is what happened. So why in the name of all things holy fuck should the woman be the one to devote herself to raising the child with all that that entails - the sleepless nights, the nappies, the school run, the quandries and difficulties, the refereeing over squabbles with schoolfriends, the dilemmas about boyfriends or girlfriends, the need to be an emotional guiding hand for the rest of her life - and the man swan off to another country? Just because 'she had a choice'? Tbh you sound as though you think that women should be punished in some way just because they have agency over their bodies and the life they carry in them - your posts really do smack of the worst kind of 'serves you right' attitude, as in 'serves you right for having a womb'.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:04:12

What else is it then perception?

If words fail you, then it may be because I have a valid point that you don't know how to respond to.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:06:42

But Festive, it isn't just 'her' baby. They both of them created a child, together. Whether or not the baby was planned, that is what happened

I completely agree with you. 100%. So why is it only the woman that gets to decide whether that baby gets to be born or not. They both created it, so they should both have a say on whether it gets to be born.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 01:07:33

Festive

I had a friend at uni get pregnant. She had an abortion. The boyfriend was desperate for her to keep the baby and let him bring it up. Utterly desperate.

She refused. She considered adoption, that was her first choice but on hearing her boyfriend would willingly have it, she decised on an abortion because she didn't want to have to pay for a child she never wanted.

Sometes men are more for responsibility than women are.

ChippingInLovesChristmasLights Sat 29-Dec-12 01:08:02

If you aren't prepared to be a single mum, you shouldn't have casual sex unless you are prepared to have a termination if your contraception fails. As a woman she was the one taking that risk. It's not rocket science is it?

He was also taking a risk and should pay CSA.

As far as the child is concerned, it is sad that the father doesn't want to be a part of its life, but there's nothing you can do about that.

She is being ridiculous to think that a guy who was in a on/off relationship with her, who wanted her to have a termination, was going to change his mind. He made it more than clear he did not want to play happy families.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:13:39

^So why is it only the woman that gets to decide whether that baby gets to be born or not.

Because the baby is inside the woman and cannot survive without her.

You really should have had this chat with your parents when you were ten or so. It's just biology.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 01:13:51

Chipping I've read it as OP's friend (who inexplicably got pregnant last year and has not given birth) is having a last minute panic but in all seriousness is fully aware she will be raising this child without the father.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:16:22

^ you shouldn't have casual sex unless you are prepared to have a termination if your contraception fails.

Yes, yes, it's all the woman's fault.

And now abortion has, for some people, just become another stick with which to beat women up.

Stuff like this just makes me despair.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:16:26

I agree Chipping, I just don't think it's fair that the woman has more options than the man.

She took a risk of being a single Mum, but she knows that if she does she will be be housed and her life will be paid for.

A man has none of that security, even if he wants to be a good dad, he won't be given the same sized home as the Mum to have his children in, and he will be expected to pay where the woman will just be given money.

It's double standards.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:18:14

Where are these free houses for single parents and all of this money that we are supposed to get and please can I have some of it? I would bloody love a free house.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:23:21

Because the baby is inside the woman and cannot survive without her

Fine, but what about when the baby is no longer inside her? Why does she then get to choose to go to a government agency that will take money out of the mans bank account for the next 18 years? Why should she have that power when it's no longer about her body?

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:24:24

I didn't say anything about a free house, and the free money I'm talking about is called child tax credits.

ChippingInLovesChristmasLights Sat 29-Dec-12 01:30:06

Wallison - how about not cutting and pasting parts of my thread out of context? Thank you.

What I said was If you aren't prepared to be a single mum, you shouldn't have casual sex unless you are prepared to have a termination if your contraception fails

Why would you expect to play happy families with a man who you are only in a casual sexual relationship with?

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:31:51

^Why does she then get to choose to go to a government agency that will take money out of the mans bank account for the next 18 years? Why should she have that power when it's no longer about her body?

Because a father should support his child. Do you really think that is so very wrong?

And you said 'she will be housed'. What exactly did you mean by that? I am a single parent and I fucking well pay for the house that me and my son live in. Is there some kind of loophole that I'm not aware of whereby you pop out a baby and get a house in return?

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:33:14

Chipping, quoting the rest of your post doesn't make it any less repellent.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 01:39:22

We really haven't moved very far from the ducking stool and magadeliwne laundries have we ?
If men want casual unprotected sex they should think themselves lucky if they ONLY get 18 years of financial burden - usually a pathetic amount in the grand scheme of things, reduced further when he decides to have his REAL children.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:39:40

When I said they will be housed, I mean they will be offered a secure tenancy and offered a home. I didn't say they wouldn't have to pay for it.

And no, I don't think it's wrong that a father should support his child. It's absolutely right that a father should support his child. I just don't think a man should have to support a child that both partners actively tried to avoid having, when at the same time a man has to just lump it if a woman wants to prevent his baby from being born.

It should be one way or the other, instead of being weighted so very heavily in favour of the woman.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 01:41:26

Festive if she decided to give the baby to the dad and walk away he could also claim the same things she could inc csa and tax credits.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 01:42:44

Where do these secure tenancies come from please ?

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 01:43:05

So do you think they should be able to force the woman to abort?

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:44:45

Sock, yes, if she decided. He gets no say at all.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:46:16

I don't have a secure tenancy. Most single parents don't because, contrary to what you read in the Daily Mail, you do not get bumped up the list just because you are a single parent. That is a myth.

And I don't know what you mean by 'it should be one way or the other'. Are you railing against biology again?

Mosman, quite. The most that the CSA can take from an absent father, if they can track him down and if he plays ball and declares all of his earnings, is 15% of his net income. 15 fucking percent? Of his net income? That doesn't even cover the cost of renting a place with two bedrooms rather than one.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:46:45

No, I don't think a man should be able to force an abortion. But I do think he should be able to prevent one, and I do think that a man who has used contraception should be able to absolve himself of financial responsibility in the same way a woman is able to.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 01:49:25

Why on earth should a man be able to absolve himself of financial responsibility? You were quite big on responsibility earlier on in the thread. Does the word have a different meaning for people who possess a penis?

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 01:50:28

I reckon in the 12 months I was a single mum and the 9 months of pregnancy I lost about $200,000 in loss of earnings, having to move to a bigger house, getting a safer car, buying baby equipment etc etc. the piddling amount the CSA had to force the dickhead to pay doesn't touch the sides, didn't cover the cost of her nappies. Oh and on my case he just didn't use any contraception at all, not sure what he thought would prevent a baby especially as he was 33 at the time, ignorance could hardly be used as an excuse.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 01:55:39

Add message | Report | Message poster FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:44:45
Sock, yes, if she decided. He gets no say at all.

That's not true, he can say no don't leave the baby here with me and swan off I would rather you didn't, he can then shut the door and not let her leave the baby.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 01:59:17

Yes, and then she will legally be able to take some of his money, whether he wanted the unplanned child or not. He doesn't have any say in that.

He doesn't get any say if he wants to be the resident parent and make her be the non resident one.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 02:00:40

Why on earth should a man be able to absolve himself of financial responsibility? You were quite big on responsibility earlier on in the thread.

Because if a woman can, then a man should have the same right.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 02:08:27

And then why, pray, should pay for the child's upkeep? Magic fairies?

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 02:10:01

The woman who chose to bring it into the world on her own.

Wallison Sat 29-Dec-12 02:10:13

Actually, fuck it, I'm not getting into this any more because so much of what you are saying makes no sense at all that there's no point in arguing with you.

Yes, you are completely right in your little la-la-land of fathers who can create a life and have no responsibility for it whatsoever and actually you do win in in the sense that this is often what happens so bully for you eh.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 02:12:07

I'm it trying to win anything confused And being female, I'm already a winner in this whole thing.

Don't you see that women can create a life and have no responsibility for it more than men can?

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 02:18:11

No. I don't see that at all. You've only got to meet a single father who's wife has had the audacity to die to see the difference in the way he is treated like an absolute hero v's a woman who is treated even by other women as a slapper until somebody points put she's a widow, been dumped or whatever.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 29-Dec-12 02:19:50

what a depressing thread

a woman choosing not to have a termination because a man asked her to is not about a power struggle it's because she has control thankfully over her own body.

my ex tried to force me to have a termination bullied me it was a terrible way to behave much to his shame thankfully he took on his responsibilities like envying should do

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 02:22:58

A woman who keeps her child and cares for the child and meets that child's needs is not having no responsibility for that child,

The minimum responsibility a parent who walks away has is to pay 15% of there income in maintenance

Just because one parent pays csa it does not mean the pwc is taking no responsibility.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 02:23:07

Your example about widows is completely irrelevant to the point I made, but I do realise that single Fathers get hero worshipped.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 02:25:33

I didn't say that a PWC is taking no responsibility, I meant that a woman is free to absolve herself of responsibility if she chooses to by having an abortion, or even by giving the child up for adoption.

A man doesn't have those choices, and cannot absolve themselves of responsibility.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 29-Dec-12 02:27:44

why do you see it as power struggle

do you know any men who have become fathers and really did not want to be

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 02:33:44

To be perfectly honest your coming out with so many bizarre and bigoted statements that its getting very hard to actually follow.

Are you now saying that a man should be able to force a adoption?

Or that because he can't either force a abortion or adoption he should be able to just walk away

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sat 29-Dec-12 02:38:37

Pregnant women have the right to bodily integrity.

Nobody has the right to wallet integrity.

If you think paying the CSA minimum is equivalent to gestating a baby you are a misogynistic simpleton.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 29-Dec-12 02:39:14

I wonder what gender your children are Festive? Just curious as to why you think it's a reasonable stance to take for a man to walk away without a backward glance and do all he can to avoid any responsbility towards their own child, despite willingly engaging in sex that can result in pregnancy.

When a man and a woman create a child (intentionally or unintentionally)
the decision to have the child will always rest entirely with the woman in any civilised society. To advocate otherwise is to advocate that women should have enforced abortions or enforced continuation of pregnancies.

Every child is entitled to financial support from their father and mother.
(Whether that child was conceived unintentionally is irrelevant to the child's needs)

Of course, there are several possible outcomes to an unintentional pregnancy, some of which may result in no child:no responsibility, or even child:mother waives father's obligations.

But the default position every man should take is that sex DOES create babies regardless of intention or contraceptive precautions, it is a very possible outcome. And IF you have sex and happen to create a pregnancy you ARE financially responsible for any child born as a result.

Simples.

Perhaps they should teach this in schools.

McChristmasPants2012 Sat 29-Dec-12 03:54:09

he should of used a condom if he didn't want to be a father, he is nothing but a waste of space.

AlwayswinterneverXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 06:38:03

Stunned by the amount of people on here who think abortion is some form of 'last line of defence' contraception - it's not! Depending on your views you may see it as something never to do or a potentially necessary but difficult decision to make but it's not a procedure you just go and have because 'bugger, that sex DID result in a baby that time'. And abortion only becomes a possibility after conception, where both parties have already made their choice by having sex, taken the risk and the consequences have occured - neither one gets to just back out because they don't like the consequences.

The woman has a choice left about what happens to her body - if she chooses not to keep on carrying the baby then yes the father's responsibilities naturally end, same as they would if the baby sadly died after birth. However if she chooses to keep carrying the baby she is not taking on all responsibility for it - it already existed because of the choice of both parties, she's just not changing anything!

Would anyone who says the baby should be the woman's complete responsibility as she hasn't chosen abortion support her asking the man for years of emotional and financial support if she DID choose abortion? There may be physical or psychological effects that run on for years after all - even a couple of years of counselling could cost £1000's. If not then basically the man should take on no responsibility at all whatever happens?

There is such an obsession on this thread with making life 'fair' for the poor little men. No one cares when it's the other way round I tend to find.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 07:29:39

'Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 01:07:33

I had a friend at uni get pregnant. She had an abortion. The boyfriend was desperate for her to keep the baby and let him bring it up. Utterly desperate.

She refused. She considered adoption, that was her first choice but on hearing her boyfriend would willingly have it, she decised on an abortion because she didn't want to have to pay for a child she never wanted.'

Alis, a similar thing happened to a male friend of mine, but the ending differs.
He bargained with her, and she accepted a large payment to have the baby. It wasn't an easy option for him and he didn't have the money to spare, but he wanted the child and scraped together the cash because he really wanted the child.
Then after the birth, she left and his daughter hasn't seen her mother for 20 years, entirely the mother's choice.
But she loves her father and his new partner. He still thinks it's the best deal he ever made.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 07:31:15

OP, your friend is delusional, but telling her 'I told you so' won't help so why bother?
Either be there for her or not, but the fact that you were right is irrelevant to the situation now.

festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 07:43:29

Wondering if there's a "dads net" site available. Looks like it's needed here.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 08:10:39

They could always go and join FFJ and all the bitter she stole my sperm dickheads over there I suppose

Aspiemum2 Sat 29-Dec-12 08:13:40

Festive, you said that you think a man should be able to prevent an abortion. Can you please tell me under which circumstances you see this as acceptable?

festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 08:15:21

I hope you aren't referring to me. There's another festive right?

splashymcsplash Sat 29-Dec-12 08:21:22

Festive are you a man? I find it hard to believe a woman could be so misogynistic.

Single mothers do not automatically get given secure tenancies. I am one and I did not receive one.

I also don't see abortion being freely available has anything to do with paternal responsibility. You are making a rather tenuous link.

Aspiemum2 Sat 29-Dec-12 08:33:02

No not you, sorry for the mix up

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 11:08:36

I'm female, and the mother of sons.

I realise that many disagree with me, but I won't be changing my opinion any time soon. It is not misogyny to want things to be fairer for both a man and a woman.

SPB, you are saying no one cares when it's the other way round, ie that no one cares when we want things to be made fairer for the woman, but this thread proves that that's not true. It's all about rights for the woman and none for the man.

I just think that if a woman has the right to choose whether she wants to be a parent or not, then a man should be afforded the same courtesy.

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 11:13:59

I agree festiveelement! I raised my child by

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 11:14:35

He can choose whether to parent or not, my DD's father pissed off, but it was never up for question that he would provide for her, however little that contribution might be. I don't worry about your boys being forced into father hood by some wanton woman, i've told them the only fool proof method is abstaining and fingers crossed they take that on board.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 11:15:22

My boy not your boys. Typo.

specialsubject Sat 29-Dec-12 11:21:43

he made his position very clear and she chose to ignore it. The idea that he would 'come round' was pure fantasy. It would have been helpful to try to get her to see this earlier - doesn't mean she should have had an abortion, but she should have made plans for being a single parent.

she is now going to be a single parent. She needs to grow up and get real, and make those plans.

YANBU. Sperm donor is evidently off out of reach of the CSA but it might be worth one last try to get him to provide some financial support.

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 11:23:45

I agree festiveelement! I raised my child by myself and yes there was times when I dispised my child's father for not wanting to know but ultimatley I chose to go ahead with the pregnancy so it was a path I had to walk alone. At least he is not gonna be in and out child's life which does more harm. And if u need finacal help to raise a child only YOU want u shouldn't be having it at all. The state is crippled as it is .

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 11:27:30

That's what I will be telling my boys when the time comes too, and I will hope that if they create a child by accident that they will be willing to be a part of that child's life practically, emotionally and financially.

But I can instil all of those good values in my sons, and if the time ever comes that they need to put those things to use and be responsible for a child they have created, the female can tell them not to bother because she is going to abort his child no matter how much he wants it.

So realistically, what I have to tell my sons is that because they were born with a penis, they have to take full responsibility in caring for an providing for a child they create, but that a woman doesn't have to do that if she doesn't want to.

And at the same time, I want them to value and respect women. But if I can't respect a woman that would abort a child that had a loving father, why should I expect my sons to?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 29-Dec-12 11:58:26

I suspected as much festive. There is a weird twisted logic in your argument - equating a woman's right to autonomy over her own body as an unfair advantage over a man's lack of right to either force pregnancy or abortion. And to suggest a man has no right to walk away yet a woman does is laughable. What is the father in the OP's scenario doing if not completely severing all ties to a child he willingly created with his ex? As for the woman's 'fantasy' of what she hoped from him? OP hasn't stated it was a relationship she was looking for, just some interest from the father. I think I'd have similar expectations in her shoes, because the idea of walking away from my own child is abhorrent to me, and I would not naturally have such a low opinion of someone no matter what they said. She's not 'deluded' about him, just a decent person who took responsibility for the failed contraception, and took that responsibility wholly on her shoulders, while the other person equally responsible runs off as far as he can to avoid any responsibility. Yup, I can almost see why you think this poor man has been so unfairly disadvantaged compared to the woman.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 29-Dec-12 12:43:28

verylittlecarrot

"Perhaps they should teach this in schools."

Its funny that on a thread about parental responsibility posters are avocating giving that responsibility to schools.

FYI, it is already taught in schools.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 12:51:41

Yup, it is already taught in schools.
And we don't let them have sex on the premises either.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 13:23:18

So festive if the woman wants a termination but the dad wants the baby, how exactly would you want this dealt with?

Try and remember up thread you said she should have rights over her own body.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 13:35:43

I do think she should have rights over her own body.

It's the double standards that pisses me off.

A woman can choose to have an abortion or a baby. Therefore a man should be able to choose whether he becomes an involved father or one that is completely uninvolved, both emotionally and financially, provided he has used contraception.

I realise that there would be no way to ever police this, but I do think there should be some legal provision in cases like the OP describes so that the man can apply to court to be legally absolved of financial responsibility. After all, a woman can absolve herself of all responsibility if she chooses to have an abortion, so I believe a man should have the same right.

The mother would then bring the child into the world in exactly the same way she would have done had she chosen to use a sperm donor.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 13:45:28

Are you really that silly?

A abortion means the child does not exist, it is never born. No child is born that requires any responsibility at all.

A live birth means there is a child two adults made that child

If the sperm was in a penis just before it entered the vagina then nobody used a sperm donor two people had sex.

Aspiemum2 Sat 29-Dec-12 13:50:18

Festive I would still like to know what you mean when you said you think a man should be able to prevent an abortion?

Also, I totally disagree that a man should be able to go to court to terminate his financial responsibility, what a terrible mess that would create

Poor woman hanging onto a little hope in her situation and you being a so called friend. Hold her hand and make sympathetic noises whilst her hormones roller coaster FFS!

splashymcsplash Sat 29-Dec-12 13:52:48

Festive do you not realise how full of contradictions your posts are?

Also, in all your babble about 'men's rights' I have not seen you once think about the rights of the child.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 13:54:43

How would you prove you'd used contraception, does every condom need to be kept and catalogued ?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 29-Dec-12 14:00:47

I just find the whole idea of taking legal steps to sever all ties of responsibility for your own child such an abhorrent suggestion. I can't understand the logic behind that at all.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 14:02:39

I'm actually quite concerned about the messages some people are passing on to there children with regard to decent conduct.

I would be ashamed of my sons if they thought it was acceptable to not financially support there child.

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 14:04:23

If we were thinking about the rights of the child, then we wouldn't allow abortion.

It's about the parents.

I'm sure my posts are contradictory, because the whole situation is. People want women to have the right to choose, and men to take responsibility for that choice.

What you are all basically saying is that a man has no rights and a woman has all the rights. I just happen to believe that shouldn't be the case.

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 29-Dec-12 14:06:20

Festive you are missing one very important point that has been made again and again on this thread.

The man does have a choice. He has the choice to not have vaginal intercourse, thereby not risking accidental pregnancy.

If he chooses to take the risk, then he needs to do so knowing that any accidental pregnancy is out of his control. It is the woman's choice to continue with or terminate a pregnancy but the man still has a legal obligation to pay for any child, wanted or not and a moral obligation to be practically and emotionally involved in the child's life. This is the right of the child.

If the man is not willing to take this risk, knowing that it is then out of his control, he should not be having vaginal intercourse, there are plenty of other options available to him that carry no risk.

This is fair. It is fair for the child and fair for the woman whose body and hormones are the ones being effected by the pregnancy and/or termination and who has to live with the risks that child birth or termination incur. This is why the woman gets the last say.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 29-Dec-12 14:07:39

Yeah,us women have all the rights. Poor men,had to struggle for years for equality... Oh wait...no,that's not right is it?

Have a biscuit Festive.

Your sons wives will be writing about you on here one day. I guarantee it.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 14:10:14

Festive have a little sit down to try and absorb this information.

Up until a the time that a baby is born it is inside its mother.

When it is actually born it is a mini human with rights of its own.

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 14:13:39

I have met a surprising number of men who don't realise that they can be made to pay for a baby conceived from a one night stand or casual relationship. I soon put them right on that score - one said 'oh I had better start being careful then' tosser I wonder why and where during the course of their lives learning to take responsibility escaped them? Perhaps because of people in society who have an attitude similar to that of festive...

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 29-Dec-12 14:14:37

The thing I find most bizarre festive is your insistence that a woman has an advantage over a man in this situation. As thought he choice to abort is easy. As though the choice to continue with a pregnancy is easy. They are both incredibly difficult, life altering decisions that I cannot see as being in any way something to be envious of, or somehow equal to a man deciding to take responsibility or not, for a child they help create. There are massive risks to either option for a woman, yet the risks for a man are what exactly?

DumSpiroSperHoHoHo Sat 29-Dec-12 14:29:33

YABVU to be so unsympathetic, which I believe was the question you asked originally.

Regardless of any 'moral issues' regarding contraceptive responsibility, termination, single mothers, and fathers choosing whether or no to be involved this woman is supposed to be your friend.

Regardless of your personal feelings and opinions (and in theory I can see where you are coming from) she needs your support.

As far as I am concerned if a friend of mine is having a rough time, my priority is to support and care for them to the best of my ability - my personal feelings/judgements take a back seat, otherwise I wouldn't consider myself a very good friend.

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 14:45:30

EQUALITY....jeez. If its a woman RIGHT to CHOOSE to be a mother is mans RIGHT to choose if he wants to be a father. YES 2 people were there at the conception so 2 people need to decide if that embreo is gonna get the chance to grow. If said 2 people cant come to an agreement then if mother CHOOSES to keep baby then its a path she has decided to go alone. Why should the man automatically have to go with what the woman said..after all it IS half his?? would there be a court in the land that would FORCE a pregnancy be kept OR aborted???? It they were in an established relationship with no birth control used then it would be a different story, but it was used and that implies that this baby wasnt wanted by either. I read a story about a couple that had frozen embreos and when they split up the woman took him to court to still use them! THUS entitling mum to a life time of child support! i bet all the man haters on here think she had every right too! p.s im a woman too and have a son who i will make sure he FEEDS his GF the pill or what ever to make sure this dosnt happen! NO SEX BEFORE MARRAGE LOL

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 29-Dec-12 14:48:01

He can choose. He can choose not to have sex if he is not happy with the risks it carries. No one has a right to have sex.

What fucking century have I wandered into?

<backs away slowly>

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 14:49:51

also this looks like a womans right issue here?? fought for years to have equal pay, benifits, laws ect but after bleating on about its woman right to have a baby if she wants too---still expects the bloke to pay LOL give me abreak!

ItsIgginningToLookALotLikeXmas Sat 29-Dec-12 14:50:08

Cut down on the sherry, mumagain.
Oh and the woman in the OP did not want to fall pregnant, but certainly looks like she wants the baby so you are incorrect to say it is an unwanted baby. As for the rest of your post, I don't have the energy biscuit

HopAndSkip Sat 29-Dec-12 14:53:19

mumagain It's not "having a baby if she want's to" when it's not a planned baby is it.
It's deciding she can't go through with killing her unborn baby just because the dad doesn't want to step up.
Or should a woman have to go through the medical procedure and emotional distress of an abortion just because a man says so?

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 14:54:25

YEP just like she CHOSE to jump in to bed with him too! 'no one has the right to have sex'? sex is between two consenting adults. So basically ur saying every woman has the right to entrapment. jesus christ no man is SAFE !!!!!!!!!! scary!!

what fucking century have I walked in to ???

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 14:55:31

morning after pill????????????

splashymcsplash Sat 29-Dec-12 14:58:06

Mum again you are actually spot on: two adults have sex, therefore they both need to take responsibility for the possible consequences!

It's hardly entrapment when the man chooses to have sex.

splashymcsplash Sat 29-Dec-12 15:00:45

Mum again your posts are deeply disturbing. You want your son to force his gf to take the pill. Don't get me started on the no sex before marriage.

HopAndSkip Sat 29-Dec-12 15:01:41

You aren't going to always notice when contraception fails... otherwise there would be no unplanned pregnancy's.

And if we're taking away men's responsibility to pay for a child they've fathered, then we should also not be allowing them to see that child if they change their mind at any point in the future then?

Narked Sat 29-Dec-12 15:06:37

Nice of you to join MN to add to our little discussion Mumagain

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 15:06:58

I'll break BOTH the arms of any bloke who tries to feed my daughter the pill.

D0oinMeCleanin Sat 29-Dec-12 15:08:51

I'll be teaching my daughters not to have sex with self entitled tossers, which should keep them safe from MILs like Mumagain anyway.

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 15:10:24

Hopand skip hell no! if he walked away at the beginging then he shouldnt get a sniff for the rest of his life even if he changes his mind!
splash again 'they both need to take responsiblity' SO why is it the bloke has to go along with what the woman wants??? hipocritical.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 15:12:44

He shouldn't get a sniff for the rest of his life ? So somebody can't change between 20 years old and 30 ? Life just isn't that black and white, circumstances and people change for the better sometimes too.

okaynowitstheseason Sat 29-Dec-12 15:13:50

I could accept the premise that once conception has happened, it's tough and the man has to step up to fatherhood since he chose to have sex, knew the risks, etc, IF the same applied to the woman.

However more often than not it's the same vocal crowd baying for a woman's right to choose to avoid responsibility after conception who would have a complete shitfit if a man tried to choose not to have that responsibility.

As an example, can you imagine David Cameron saying the same thing about mothers who offer newborns up for adoption as he said about absent fathers?

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 15:16:21

'I'll be teaching my daughters not to have sex with self entitled tossers'

Fantastic idea DOoin, you could practise on half of the adults on Mumsnet first. It seems to happen a lot.

ZenNudist Sat 29-Dec-12 15:17:14

YABU to be unsympathetic. What does it cost you to be supportive of her. Also she might not have wanted an abortion. The guy sounds like a heel. If he moves abroad she won't be able to pursue him for child maintenance. What a shit. At the end if the day many people would be morally or emotionally unable to abort a child. That doesn't mean he is right to walk away. I am angry for your friend.

HopAndSkip Sat 29-Dec-12 15:17:57

a mother putting a newborn up to adoption isn't going to wander in and out of the childs life and use the child to control the mother as some "absent" fathers do.

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 15:20:26

'He shouldn't get a sniff for the rest of his life'

What if the child wants a relationship with the father? It's no longer about two people once the birth has occurred.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 29-Dec-12 15:20:52

D0oinMeCleanin
"I'll be teaching my daughters not to have sex with self entitled tossers,"

I agree with the sentiment but in all honesty, best of luck with that.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 15:22:23

You do understand that a child is only entitled to receive child support whilst he/ she is still a child, don't you?

For Christ sakes both parents have to take responsibility after the point of birth up until that point if a dad has no desire to be one and the woman elects to abort then he has had a lucky escape.

His choice is having sex,as is hers but because the baby grows inside her after conception, because its her body she gets an additional choice but nobody gets a choice after birth.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 29-Dec-12 15:22:45

ZenNudist
"YABU to be unsympathetic. What does it cost you to be supportive of her."

two completely different things, the OP has said time and agian on this thread that she supports her and will continue to do so.

HopAndSkip Sat 29-Dec-12 15:23:51

TheNebulousBoojum Good for you. Glad to know you've never misjudged anyone in your life.
I'm sure all us stupid women would love to know how you avoid getting into a relationship with anyone who has the potenital to change?

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 15:24:11

OP didn't say why he was moving, possibly a job?

FestiveElement Sat 29-Dec-12 15:34:44

* If he moves abroad she won't be able to pursue him for child maintenance. What a shit.*

So he should be forced into turning down a job opportunity that he desperately wants because of the choice that someone else has made?

How is that any better than forcing a woman to have an abortion, or to carry a child she doesn't want?

TheNebulousBoojum Sat 29-Dec-12 15:35:36

'TheNebulousBoojum Good for you. Glad to know you've never misjudged anyone in your life.
I'm sure all us stupid women would love to know how you avoid getting into a relationship with anyone who has the potenital to change?'

Do you mean doesn't have the potential to change? I've misjudged a lot of people, just not shagged them and regretted it. Shagged yes.

Mosman Sat 29-Dec-12 15:43:55

My DDs biological father lived 12,000 miles away and still paid child support. Probably so that he could look himself in the mirror but I don't see why an absent parent wouldn't tbh. And I wouldn't marry a bloke who had z child put there somewhere he took no responsibility for I'd constantly be worried he'd screw me over too.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 29-Dec-12 15:46:21

I was going to post something similar to Mosman In that alot of posters are assuming that he won't be paying money towards the child.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 29-Dec-12 16:07:34

That's because it kind of moved on and a few posters said he shouldn't have to.

On a side note some people are just thick bigots.

whois Sat 29-Dec-12 17:01:47

I do kind of feel sorry for men who have sex but the woman gets pg through contraception failure. I don see why it's ok for a woman to have the child against the express wishes of the father, or conversely for her to abort when the father wants a child.

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 17:11:22

Well, perhaps because it is only the woman who has to deal with the physical and emotional effects of pregnancy, whois.

You 'feel sorry' for the man? As if it's the woman's fault there was a contraception failure??

perceptionInaPearTree Sat 29-Dec-12 17:11:44

pregnancy and abortion*

5madthings Sat 29-Dec-12 17:23:37

Fuck me this thread has some depressing posts on it.

He had sex, therefore he knew a child was a possibility, any man can wear a condom or havea vasectomy if they dont want to risk a pregnancy, aomen can use birth control (more choice for women but also more crappy side effects) ultimately other than no penetrative sex nothing is 100% so both parties mean they are risking a pregnancy. Ultimately its the woman who chooses once pregnant because its HER body that has to go through the preg/birth or the abortion, bith can have negative health consequences. So the man having to pay up.for his own child is a bloody mimimal input, he may not want to be a father and he can choose to walk away from that relationship, he cant walk away from the financial responsibility.

It would be great if everytime there was an unplanned preg both people involved could agree together what to do but it doesnt work like that and men have sex KNOWING this fact!! So they know that if the sex results in a pregnancy they are responsible for that child.

And yes abortion is a choice but until you are in that position its impossible to say what you will do. I had a nice life plan that included my first baby ay age 27, i got pregnant at 19, not in my life plan! but i couldnt have an abortion. I dont judge anyone that does and in different time and circumstances i may well have had one myself and i would never rule it out, but at the time i couldnt do it.

This woman for whatever reason has made her choice. I think most women would hope the father would come round to the idea, they may not want to play happy families but its not unreasonable to hope a father would want to be involved intheir childs life or that they would support the child financially. she is realising this wont happen, she will cope and she will move on, in the mean time she needs support from friends and you op dont sound much of a friend.

festivelyfocussed Sat 29-Dec-12 18:46:20

^^perfect sense from 5madthings

5madthings Sat 29-Dec-12 18:57:57

Apart from the typos blush seriously tho i am shocked at some of the attitudes on this thread. If he didnt want a baby he shouldnt have sex. He chose to take the risk so he needs to step.up to his responsibilities.

A woman who has an abortion is stepping up and accepting the consequences as well, its not a bloody get out of jail free card. Abortion or pregnancy and birth are both serious things for the woman to have to deal with so yes the man shoukd step up and pay for the child,thats a fucking trifling thing to do given the options the woman has.

mumagain38 Sat 29-Dec-12 19:22:10

Maybe all men need to sign a disclaimer that if be participates in sexual activity he is libel for any child/childen that may result! Wow now that would be the best contraceptive ever@!!!!

oldpeculiar Sat 29-Dec-12 20:42:21

'She made the decision to continue with the pregnancy'

WFT??? That is not an active 'decision' .It is the normal, natural train of events. Abortion, especially to someone with even mildly pro-life views is pretty much unthinkable!

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 29-Dec-12 20:42:26

Maybe all men need to sign a disclaimer that if be participates in sexual activity he is libel for any child/childen that may result!

I don't think 'libel' is the right word but, the sentiment of what you are saying is already the case i.e. you father a child, you are liable for a % of the cost of it's upkeep no matter how 'unfair' you think that is - it's not an unknown consequence of having sex. I guess you could suggest the disclaimer to the terminally thick who still don't get the whole sex = baby thing, but would they even have the ability to read or understand what they were signing, if the basic facts of life still haven't sunk in yet?

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Sat 29-Dec-12 22:51:29

I think I may have solved the problem smile

Fanjo sex should only every occur when trying to conceive is the aim.

Bum sex and oral should be used at all other times - Lets see any unplanned pregnancies happen now - The man doesn't have to worry about being forced to be a father or about the girlfriend aborting if he would like to keep it. The woman doesn't have to make any difficult decisions about abortion, whether the father will step up etc

<Bow down to my superior wine induced intelligence> wink

suburbophobe Sat 29-Dec-12 23:23:49

I do kind of feel sorry for men who have sex but the woman gets pg through contraception failure.

Of FFS!

Of course! Always the woman's fault, eh?!

Remind that man when he ain't got a condom on it to hold THAT dick in HIS HAND!!!

suburbophobe Sat 29-Dec-12 23:25:00

Which does not abscond him from stepping up to the plate as a father if he doesn't by the way.

Wherever he is in the world.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sat 29-Dec-12 23:51:53

I do kind of feel sorry for men who have sex but the woman gets pg through contraception failure.

That's understandable. I mean, he has to agonise on what to do about the pregnancy, either consider abortion, or continue with the pregnancy, which ever way he goes there is risk to his health/well being. His life won't be the same, the effect the pregnancy would have on him physically and mentally would be pretty tough to go through especially if he's on his own. He'll have to take time off to actually give birth, and then look after the child, with the massive impact it'll have on his earnings and future career prospects. Then go through arranging childcare to return to work, or consider living an existence on state benefits if he can't quite get the balance of work/childcare/home life right. All that responsibility on his shoulders alone, it's hard for him eh? As for the mother? It's clearly harder having to stand back and let someone else do it all alone, worrying about that 15% of your income disappearing when she's got no way to protest against that especially if she made it clear from the start she didn't actually want to be a mother. I mean, she vaguely knew that sex might cause a pregnancy, but she never really gave it much thought, and the man is just a selfish arsehole who wants to trap her, and cause her untold misrey by forcing parenthood on her. On balance, I think it's only fair that she can opt to fuck off and live her life, unaffected by the existence of a child she played only a tiny part in creating. That's just evening up the imbalance of this situation isn't it? Isn't it? Oh, wait a minute...

samandi Sun 30-Dec-12 01:11:23

Some pretty hysterical rants here. Seriously, if you want a baby then find a man who wants one too. Trying to play happy families with someone who clearly doesn't want to just sounds desperate and weird. If you don't think you can handle taking the morning after pill or having an abortion then don't have sex.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 30-Dec-12 01:26:42

Men and women HAVE equal rights with regard to pregnancy.

Both parties can terminate their involvement in creating and growing a child as long as they are physically involved in that process.

That's why a lesbian can't force her partner, gestating her own biological child, to terminate. That's why biological parents can't stop a surrogate from terminating if she wished to. That's why a frozen embryo can't be implanted without both parents' consent.

If you want to make the reproductive process more egalitarian get to work designing an artificial womb. Trying to remove women's rights to abortion, or young children's rights to financial support, would do fuck all for equality.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 30-Dec-12 01:56:59

Samadi-

The same could be said of men.

nooka Sun 30-Dec-12 02:16:17

This thread makes me wonder what some parents are teaching their sons and daughters when it comes to the potential consequences of sex.

I've told both my children to be very careful about sex. To make sure that the other person really wants to have sex with them, to only have sex when you really really want to. To take precautions against both pregnancy and STDs and recognise that however careful you are things can and do go wrong sometimes.

I've told dd that we will support her if she gets pregnant, and although she also knows I am pro-choice I've made it very clear that it will be totally her choice as to what course of action she follows.

I've told ds that if he gets a girlfriend pregnant we will support them, but it will be totally her choice as to what course of action she follows. If he does end up being a father (whether it is his choice or not) then we will expect him to step up to the plate (as will we, any potential child being our grandchild too). For me that involves a great deal more than coughing up 15% of his income.

Life comes with consequences, whether they are fair or not is ultimately immaterial.

Mosman Sun 30-Dec-12 03:15:03

Too many assumptions about contraception failure too if you ask me. The truth is a ridiculous number of people domg use any at all and are then shocked that their bits do indeed work and there is s pregnancy.

Mosman Sun 30-Dec-12 03:15:46

*domg ???? DON'T

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Sun 30-Dec-12 08:11:53

This thread makes me wonder what some parents are teaching their sons and daughters when it comes to the potential consequences of sex.

I shall be without a shadow of a doubt teaching my sons that if they don't want children then always always use protection before you get in to a situation where you really are stuck. Using the "don't have sex at all if you don't want children" line to a young person is pretty pointless and people are naive in thinking that their sons or daughters will live by that.

I will also tell them to be very wary. Just as people with daughters will be warning them of the men that get a woman pregnant and abdicate their responsibilities, I will be warning my sons of the possible heartache they could go through if they met the wrong person. Do they really want to get a woman pregnant who doesn't want the baby and aborts the baby leaving them as the dad thinking "what if?" for the rest of their lives. Or in another possible scenario, having a baby with a woman, them splitting up and then she stops him from seeing the child. I'll also warn them about the CSA. That might be enough altogether to make them think twice about having unprotected sex.

All I want for my DSs is for them to meet someone who loves them and who he loves just as much, they have respect for each other and neither of them are going to hurt each other. But all that is very rosy indeed.

Nooka that's exactly what I've been trying to say about life's unfairness. And yet people seem obsessed that it must be fair, if not the unfairness must only affect the woman.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Sun 30-Dec-12 08:19:37

Of course I forgot to mention, tell them to make sure if they are going to be responsible and use protection, then the woman they are having sex with should equally so. If the condom splits, the pill is there as well. If she forgets to take her pill, then the condom is there as well. Again, all very well telling them this but I can't control them.

There's always the morning after pill as well. If he has done his bit and it splits, then that's her bit there. It's an equal responsibility. Men AND women.

McKayz Sun 30-Dec-12 08:24:12

YABU! You come across as really quite horrible.

But I want to know how she got pregnant last year and is still pregnant? confused

ClairesTravellingCircus Sun 30-Dec-12 09:44:43

Great posts by bunchamuch and 5madthings.

How can anyone not see this is beyond me!

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sun 30-Dec-12 15:19:45

Sowhat, the message 'don't have sex if you don't want a baby' isn't just about persuading people to not have sex, but to make sure they understand there are consequences that are foreseeable and that requires acknowledgement of their own responsibility in creating a pregnancy. Have sex by all means but don't act like an arsehole if the inevitable happens when you should know it can still happen even if you don't want it to. Having a tantrum and running away from said pregnancy isn't taking responsibility. Ranting about how unfair it is you have no say after the pregnancy happens is just such a cowardly response, and illustrates that the message sex=baby seems to have eluded the more intellectually challenged who seem unable to process the basic facts of life with the stats on the success rates of contraception.

HopAndSkip Sun 30-Dec-12 16:56:06

bunchamunch has it spot on in both posts.

samandi If you don't think you can handle taking the morning after pill or having an abortion then don't have sex. that is the most rediculous statement i have ever heard. So anyone who doesn't want an invasive medical procedure and to have to live with killing their own baby just because of who it's biological father is, should be banned from having sex?
Goodbye human rights.

jeneregretrien Sun 30-Dec-12 17:37:34

the biggest question here for me is was it really an accident or did she trick him and hope he'd be happy and stick around? I know so many women who have done this, sometimes they get lucky, sometimes they don't. If it was a genuine accident, they are both responsible and I think he should show greater support and interest. if she whoops forgot the pill, stuck a pin in the condom packet etc etc, then well she can't be angry that he isn't interested. try and be kind, she's probably pretty scared and having a baby is daunting at the best of times. you will probably mess something up in your life one day and expect her sympathy and support. cuts both ways.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sun 30-Dec-12 18:05:02

jeneregretrien I can only surmise that you are possibly one of the more, ahem, intellectually challenged group who seem unable to comprehend the fact the no contraception is 100% fail-safe, if you genuinely believe the biggest question here is 'was the pregnancy really an accident?'. If that's your 1st thought, then maybe you should spend a bit of time reading the small print on any contraception you use, 'cos unplanned pregnancies don't just happen because a woman is devious and therefore sabotages the contraception used. Ignoring of course the fact that no one should rely on someone else to protect against STDs or pregnancy, if they are willingly having sex with someone. Personally, I think the biggest question is why, even now, society still absolves men of responsibility for their own actions while vilifying women for the same actions, when only one of them actually takes responsibility for the consequences. Maybe dwell on that a bit, instead of all those 'devious' women out there trying to trap poor, unsuspecting thick as fuck men who still don't get the rather simple fact that sex can = baby.

ChippingInLovesChristmasLights Sun 30-Dec-12 18:21:10

Wallison - why on earth is that repellant??

SarahWarahWoo Sun 30-Dec-12 18:24:12

I love just how many messages have been deleted on this, probably saying what a lot of us think about your "friendship"..........

perceptionInaPearTree Sun 30-Dec-12 18:37:08

I've heard this before about men being the 'victim' of a contraception sabotage. It's a view which doesn't really stand up to scrutiny as the man is perfectly able to make sure he uses his own condoms.

AnitaManeater Sun 30-Dec-12 18:47:04

YANBU

I do feel sorry for your friend, but she hasn't been mislead at any point.

^what Sarah said^

Gingerbreadpixie Sun 30-Dec-12 19:14:32

It sounds like she could do with a supportive friend who could show her a little kindness.

peaceandlovebunny Sun 30-Dec-12 19:20:08

i think the intellectually challenged are those who think that a woman should not take responsibility for her own fertility.

she chose to have sex.
the contraception was unreliable.
she chose not to use a morning after pill.
she found herself 'accidentally' pregnant.
her choice was to keep the baby.
the man didn't want to know.
she tried to convince him.
he was having none of it.
she was surprised when he decided to exit the vicinity.
mumsnetters think he is doing the wrong thing.
because she isn't responsible for her choices - to have sex, to have sex with unreliable contraception, not to use a morning after pill, to have a baby on her own when she could have had an abortion, not to believe him when he said he wasn't interested - no, that's the man's responsibility.

i'm not the one who is 'intellectually challenged'.

mumagain38 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:37:27

Agreed peaceandlovebunny!

Writehand Sun 30-Dec-12 19:41:35

I don't think YABU for feeling exasperated, she's been pretty silly, but I think unless you can be loving & supportive to her as a single mum she'd be better off without you. Sometimes as friends we just have to bit our tongues. If she's constantly wanting you to agree that he's going to change his mind that's hard, when you've felt she was being so unrealistic. Perhaps you can gently show her that she can do it alone, and both she and her baby can be happy without him.

I can't think of anything more this bloke could've done to show he didn't want to be involved. He's financially responsible (if he ever returns) but there's nothing anyone can do to make him emotionally involved, and frankly I don't think it's reasonable to expect it.

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Sun 30-Dec-12 19:42:34

Bunchamunch, I am sure most people are fully aware of what sex could result in, even if protection is used. Don't just blame the man if a pregnancy is created though, as the woman is just as aware of the foreseeable consequences.

My ex once said to me that if I fell pregnant I would have to consider having an abortion. I was like, "yeah okay." All I said to him was don't come knocking on the door in ten years time wanting to make a go I it with your child. Basically I would not have forced him to take responsibility for a child he didn't want.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sun 30-Dec-12 19:47:32

Ah, that old reliable 'morning after pill' argument too. 'Cos that's just as 100% fail-safe as any other form of contraception isn't it? Not intellectually challenged? The woman involved in the OP's scenario has absolutely taken responsibility for her choices. She is having a baby, on her own, and is having a wobble because of the somewhat drastic action of the child's father moving to another country to completely avoid having to even breath the same fucking air as their own child, a child he has contributed towards creating. Being upset that the father of her child has decided to fuck off abroad does not indicate any lack of responsibility on her part. Again, what is with all the bullshit on here about any woman not taking responsibility for her actions when she is fucking carrying that responsibility on her own, for 9 mths 'til the child is born and will then be solely responsible for everything that child needs thereafter?

Aye, right enough, clearly not intellectually challenged at all to miss that glaringly obvious fact. This woman is taking full responsibility. That much is pretty fucking clear to all but the intellectually challenged.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sun 30-Dec-12 19:49:47

Sowhat, where have I said it's all the man's fault? Nowhere. The woman here is equally responsible, and has taken full responsibility for the consequences of failed contraception.

mumagain38 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:53:53

Jesus ,hysterical much bunch lol? U talking from personal experience here?

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sun 30-Dec-12 20:03:38

Nope, my DD's dad is very much a part of her life thanks smile. Hysterical? Is that the best response you can muster?

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Sun 30-Dec-12 20:08:13

You called men thick as fuck. That says it all.

There are responsible men and women out there. But if we're going to call men thick as fuck when it comes to not realising that sex = baby, then women should be equally called in the same manner.

The old, "oh it was in the moment thing and we didn't use anything." Shows that they knew the risks but didn't do anything to reduce that risk. And yes the woman is then left with the pregnancy, but you cannot just blame the man for causing that to happen, because she knew full well the risks. This has happened with our 2nd child. Momentary and very silly, we've created a baby, but we BOTH knew what we were doing. Granted its a bit different because we're together, but the point is he never wore a condom and I didn't take a morning after pill. Both at fault.

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots Sun 30-Dec-12 20:34:22

Actually, I called men who don't get the whole sex = baby thing and take responsibility, thick as fuck - in response to those pouring out sympathy for those poor unsuspecting men who really, really don't want a baby yet happily take that chance every time they have sex. That is a pretty stupid way to conduct your life IMO, especially if they lack the maturity to actually take on board the responsibility for a possible pregnancy that inevitably wll happen for quite a few of them. So, yes, those men are as thick as fuck, and I make no apologies for saying so. The woman here has been slated for actually taking responsibility while being accused of being irresponsible - so many here saying she deserves what she gets, what did she expect, she chose this knowing he didn't want anything to do with a child while her friend is congratulated for having no sympathy for her situation. While the man has understanding and approval for just fucking off to another country so as to avoid any responsiblity whatsoever, 'cos he really, really didn't want to be a father and said so. That's just a fucked up way of looking at this situation IMO.

I have zero tolerance for anyone who thinks it's in any way a reasonable or justified option to walk away from a child they helped create. Nothing justifies that IMO, and it amazes me that so many seem to think it normal and will happily offer understanding or approval for anyone who does that. If that makes me hysterical then so be it. grin

anonacfr Sun 30-Dec-12 20:49:45

She might not even have realised the condom hadn't worked. By then it would have been too late for the morning after pill anyway.

Three of my closest friends had contraception failures that resulted in pregnancies.
One female friend was in a relationship, condom broke and MIP didn't work. They had the baby and got married.

Two of my male friends, both in not-really relationships, found themselves 'forced' into fatherhood right after leaving uni. One had actually broken it off with the girl (met in a foreign work placement, he'd moved back to the UK when she called him to let him know she was pregnant). They were both in their early 20s and weren't even considering the thought of babies and parenthood. Not only did they take responsibility, they ended up married and with more kids.

I can totally understand why the OP's friend was hoping her partner would change his mind when he saw scan pictures, updates etc. After all it is a baby we're talking about.

mumagain38 Sun 30-Dec-12 20:51:25

Lmao !

Afrodizzywonders Sun 30-Dec-12 21:00:47

I completely agree with 5madthings & bunchamunch, all I will add is thank fuck this is a totally hypothetical debate and men are deemed responsible for children they have fathered.....

End of grin

maraisfrance Mon 31-Dec-12 22:04:01

Haven't read whole thread, doubtless this been said previously: your friend, and HER child (say that quite deliberately) is better off without an unwilling, deadweight 'dad' in her life, not really interested in her, the child or family life. And I say that as someone who was married to such a dad for years! She's free to build a really nice life for herself and the baby, and be an attractive proposition, should her thoughts tend that way, for someone, further down the line, who really does want to make a family life with her and the baby. Good luck to both of them - and if you can get over being critical of how she's feeling right now, maybe you can help her focus on this much more exciting future ahead of her.

peaceandlovebunny Wed 02-Jan-13 02:42:58

a child he has contributed towards creating
i'm old, but there has never been a time in my lifetime where a woman could not avoid pregnancy by saying no/using contraception/ terminating a pregnancy. if all else fails, she could have the child and give it up for adoption.

would i have done that? no. i would probably have done as the friend in the o p and kept the baby. but i'd take the hint that the father did not want to know.

having sex with someone does not equal agreeing to bring up a child together. if that was the contract, we'd all have to get it in writing before opening our legs. there'd be far less sex. what a good idea.

if everyone (male AND female) accepted that sex - even with protection- could potentially result in a baby & had sex on the basis that they are willing to raise, look after & be financially responsible for any resultant child, the world would be a much better place.

op i think you're being a wee bit hard on your friend, she's having this guy's baby, her hormones will be all over the place & i think he's being a total cock-end about the situation. i get you're probably sick of hearing it but come on, your friend is stuck with this situation for the rest of her life- wee bit of empathy, no?

peaceandlovebunny Wed 02-Jan-13 03:56:04

if everyone (male AND female) accepted that sex - even with protection- could potentially result in a baby & had sex on the basis that they are willing to raise, look after & be financially responsible for any resultant child, the world would be a much better place.
yes, i'd agree with that.

midori1999 Wed 02-Jan-13 04:54:34

Well, the law thinks that arseholes men that behave like this do ave to take responsibility for their actions. Presumably why he is leaving the country.

It sounds, OP, like your 'friend' and her baby are better off without this man as well as better off without you as a 'friend'.

To not have sympathy for a woman you call a friend who is 36 weeks pregnant and scared, even if she has been deluding herself, is dreadful.

i've read more of the thread op * it seems like you really want your "friend" to have had aN Abortion- it just reads really weird to me.

seriously, what's your motivation? you are coming across as the new- jealous- bitch of - a- girlfriend, not as the pregnant-woman's friend- what's the issue? <genuinely asking, btw?>

in fact, please pm me your friends details,i'll be so much nicer & much more sympathetic to her predicament situation than you are apparently capable of being.

HilaryClinton Wed 02-Jan-13 07:55:24

I don't think this has been mentioned, but the CSA has reciprocal arrangements with many/most countries. Even though he has physically opted out , it will be possible to get the money you are owed from him.

mrsL1984 Wed 02-Jan-13 09:02:37

Cream tea- you seem quite hung up on her choice? What bout his abandoning a child that he did make? What's your opinion on that??? Sometimes you only get one chance at being a mummy and maybe this is hers? Yes he walked away yes she chose to have baby... SeeMs to me ure more bothered about the ex choices than ure friends

mrsL1984 Wed 02-Jan-13 09:24:49

How would this have worked out if she wanted abortion n he didn't????

5madthings Wed 02-Jan-13 09:51:58

If she had wanted an abortion and he didnt it would be her choice as biology dictates.

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