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To think adults who can't drive are a nuisance

(664 Posts)
Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:07:10

Barring situations where an illness or financial circumstances proscribe it aibu to think adults who can't drive are a PITA. People have to constantly go out of their way to collect/drop them off places; arrange plans around the times that suit the non-driver who can't travel solo but has to tag along with you; always be the designated driver who can't have a drink while the non driver happily slurps a third glass of wine etc etc etc

Yes, I have been spending too much time with a non driving sibling over the family Christmas but AIBU to think that a perfectly functioning adult (who is extremely technically minded) in full time paid employment, should bloody well learn to drive.

OpheliasWeepingWillow Thu 27-Dec-12 14:08:07

Well I don't drive and I say poo to you grin

HerBigChance Thu 27-Dec-12 14:08:22

That depends on what the public transport is like where they live; some of us don't need to drive or to rely on others for lifts.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 14:08:41

Maybe he wants to save the environment.

Has he considered a pony and trap?

OTTMummA Thu 27-Dec-12 14:08:50

You don't have to give them lifts everywhere, do you?
So YABU.

onyx72 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:09:18

Book a cab?

FunnysFuckingFreezing Thu 27-Dec-12 14:09:48

I can't imagine not being able to drive and would think it a fairly essential life skill tbh. I am always a bit hmm about people who can't and wonder why they never learnt. Both BIL's only learned to drive later in life and I did wonder what was wrong with them. So YANBU

KatyPeril Thu 27-Dec-12 14:09:51

I don't drive and never mooch off other people. So there. blows raspberry grin

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:10:04

Most people I know who don't drive do it for financial reasons or because they live in central London where driving is really not needed. So, YABU.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:10:33

Oh get a grip.

Not everyone wants to drive, can afford to drive or has any desire to drive.

Just because your sibling is self entitled and clearly doesn't want to pay for a taxi, how does that make 'normal' adults who don't drive a nuisance?

This is about you and your sibling, no-one else.

BloominMisteltoeMarvellousWine Thu 27-Dec-12 14:10:38

It's horrible being the non driver!!!

It was so nice when I passed my test and I didn't have to rely on other people.

Now DP uses our car to commute to I am back to replying on public transport and it's shit.

My point is you might feel annoyed but it's also not very nice for the non-driver.

SantasHoHoHo Thu 27-Dec-12 14:10:53

I'm with you OP. I have a close relative who chooses not to drive. They don't want the expense of running a car etc and also feels too old now (53) to get behind the wheel again. (used to drive about 20 years ago). Meanwhile, I'm asked constantly for lifts. I know I could say no but sometimes it's just easier in life to go along with it and choose the battles carefully!!!

BunFagFreddie Thu 27-Dec-12 14:11:09

YAB a tad U. Why should people have to drive just because it's the societal norm? If everyone complied with that, life would be very dull indeed!

LalyRawr Thu 27-Dec-12 14:11:44

My parents and brother were killed in a car crash. I have never willingly set foot in a car since that day.

I walk or get public transport.

If I can't get somewhere via either of those, I don't go.

I once had to be sedated by paramedics for them to get me in an ambulance. I don't give a fuck if you think I'm a PITA, I ain't doing it.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:11:52

But that's the thing. Non drivers are always convinced they don't put other people out because they get the bus to work etc. But they don't realise how often they do impose without realising.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Thu 27-Dec-12 14:12:11

I don't drive and I'm quite happy to take a bus, if anyone wants to see me then they have to drive to see me or pick me up then take me home. I dont want to drive either, the bus to work is annoying but fine and I spend £16 pw on travel, no petrol mot service tax and emergency repairs. I also get to drink and my brother/sister/mum/sdad/nan have to take me home or I stay over, if they were not willing to do this I still wouldn't drive I just wouldn't see them.

lurkerspeaks Thu 27-Dec-12 14:12:31

Their choice not to drive. Their responsibility to arrange to get to places.

(I too have non driving relatives who try this one on.. I bear the cost of running my car, I suffer the inconvenience of not drinking so no I won't necessarily always go out of my way to pick you up..... If your choice not to drive (at least one of them has a licence but 'doesn't like driving') deprives you of social opportunities as you are too tight to pay for a taxi (well paid professional) then that isn't my fault.)

ChelseaSmiles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:12:54

Not everyone wants to drive. It's becoming a massive expense to own a car! Just say NO to giving people lifts.

I don't drive nor do I want to. Lots of buses, trains, metro's and walking for us and my daughter doesn't miss out on activities. I don't expect lifts either.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 27-Dec-12 14:13:02

It's fine to not be able to drive right up until you start expecting people who can drive to ferry you around at their complete and utter inconvenience without even offering (though I wouldn't take it) petrol money.

I have a couple of friends like that.

I don't however feel the same about taking my Nan places,because 1)she is my Nan 2) she's deaf and blind. I'd rather completely change my plans and give her a lift than let her get public transport on her own. I often do.

So it depends. It can be a pita but in other circumstances I don't give it a second thought.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 14:13:06

There's nothing "wrong" with people who don't drive! hmm

If they generally don't need to most of the year why the heck would they spend a fortune on learning, buying a car, getting insurance, paying the car tax etc?

Eralc Thu 27-Dec-12 14:13:44

I don't drive - I can drive, but I have severe OCD and am petrified of getting into a car. At the moment I am taking steps to rectify it (doing more driving lessons as exposure therapy). Sometimes people are kind enough to offer me lifts, sometimes I miss out. I find it very frustrating not being able to drive, but the psychological distress it causes me makes it very difficult to do it. I don't really appreciate being viewed as a pita because of it.

Tommy Thu 27-Dec-12 14:14:02

I agree with you!

I have a couple of friends whose DHs don't drive and it means they have to do everything - all the ferrying kids around etc. I think driving is a useful lifeskill.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:14:20

But that's the thing. Non drivers are always convinced they don't put other people out because they get the bus to work etc. But they don't realise how often they do impose without realising.

All black people look the same

All men are bastards

All women are weak

Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

Not everyone imposes on others because they don't drive. Some people actually use taxis and buses you know....

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 27-Dec-12 14:15:27

Eralc...if you were my friend I would offer you lifts.

I rarely even think about it but have had friends call me up asking if I can drive them home,to a different town to the one I live in, because they've missed their trains. No...wait for the next one!

SantasHoHoHo Thu 27-Dec-12 14:15:41

I also get to drink and my brother/sister/mum/sdad/nan have to take me home or I stay over, if they were not willing to do this I still wouldn't drive I just wouldn't see them.

Wow, really? I think that's a little bit selfish. So you wouldn't go out of your way to see them?

Purple2012 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:15:44

Yabu. Why does a non driver end up imposing on someone? I can drive but gave up my car a couple of years ago for financial reasons. I get the bus to work, I get the bus to meet friends etc. How is that imposing on them?

It's my choice to use public transport and I don't have to justify why I dont have a car. I would love to have a car again. But until we can afford a car and holidays I will stick with the bus.

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 14:15:54

lalyRawr, that's awful. My DB died in a car crash too. Which is why I have never learnt to drive.
Do you know what annoys me? People who bloody well judge and think that everyone should be like them. Well, Op, we fucking well are not. So wind your bloody neck in.
<< and breathe>>

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:16:24

WorrA

Bit over the top. What about situations where the driving sibling has to do all the ferrying around of an elderly parent; can't help out with lifts and stuff when a relative is in hospital and so on. It's not just about looking for lifts; it's about not being able to help out in a crisis.

SugaricePlumFairy Thu 27-Dec-12 14:16:33

Bit of a mean thread!

I was never confident or probably competent enough to be a good, safe driver. It's safer for others that I'm not on the road actually.

Hope that helps!

I don't drive and don't impose on anyone, ever. I walk to most places get the train or the bus if its too far, I get taxis after a night out. Thanks for the sweeping generalisation though.

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:17:47

But that's the thing. Non drivers are always convinced they don't put other people out because they get the bus to work etc. But they don't realise how often they do impose without realising.

How does someone getting the bus to work affect you?!

Purple2012 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:19:10

Also , my husband uses our only car for work. If I need the car to ferry around elderly relatives I can. I also use it for shopping. It is more inconvenient for me as I have to work around my husbands shifts.

SantasHoHoHo Thu 27-Dec-12 14:19:15

Harsh insacerre. The OP is getting at non drivers who impose on her, not just any non drivers.

MerylStrop Thu 27-Dec-12 14:19:15

I don't drive
I walk, or get the bus, or the train
It's very civilised
I occasionally accept a lift from someone if offered and they are going there anyway. I NEVER expect anyone to ferry me anywhere. EVER.
A lot of car drivers are a PITA because they can't seem to walk more than 5 metres in any direction.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 14:19:29

I don't think yabu

I have a friend that doesn't drive, and while she is lovely and tries not to put upon anyone else, she does. People feel obliged to ferry her around, or to pick her up from places. She has been invited over to people's houses for dinner parties and then turned up an hour early because that's what the train times dictated and because public transport is such a pain in the arse for her, she understandably doesn't want to hang around doing nothing for an hour. But I think it's very rude to turn up that early.

I know someone else who is lovely that doesn't drive so relies on other people to take her children to and from school. I don't mind helping out and offered to give her child lifts, but I don't like then being asked to do extras on top of what I've offered. I hate having to say no, and I resent being put out by doing favours that I haven't offered.

If these adults could drive themselves, this problem wouldn't exist.

Cortana Thu 27-Dec-12 14:19:29

YABU to lump everyone in together.

My DP doesn't drive. If I can't drive him, he walks or gets a bus. When we were first dating he didn't like being driven when I offered and insisted on petrol money being given. I remember being shocked that he once got a bus home that didn't stop near his house so he walked the remaining 5 miles after a date, rather than ask me.

My friend on the other hand used to ask for lifts all the time, never offered petrol money and never said thanks. Her problem wasn't that she didn't drive, it was that she was a twunt generally.

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:19:42

Bit over the top. What about situations where the driving sibling has to do all the ferrying around of an elderly parent; can't help out with lifts and stuff when a relative is in hospital and so on. It's not just about looking for lifts; it's about not being able to help out in a crisis.

So someone should get a car just incase an elderly relative needs 'ferring around'? FFS

coppertop Thu 27-Dec-12 14:20:21

" Non drivers are always convinced they don't put other people out because they get the bus to work etc. But they don't realise how often they do impose without realising."

Well unless I've somehow sleepwalked my way into someone else's passenger seat, I think it's fairly safe to say that I haven't imposed on anyone.

No doubt if everyone did drive, you'd be complaining about how there are too many cars on the roads and how inconsiderate everyone was for driving at the same time as you.

LalyRawr Thu 27-Dec-12 14:20:54

Atthewelles there are this mystical race of people that will drive you places if you ask nicely and give them money...

CatchTheFox Thu 27-Dec-12 14:21:05

i can't drive and it IS a pain in the arse. i can't wait to learn, but money is tight at the moment and we can't afford a car either. so pffffffffffffffff <flicks Vs>

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:21:12

What about situations where the driving sibling has to do all the ferrying around of an elderly parent; can't help out with lifts and stuff when a relative is in hospital and so on. It's not just about looking for lifts; it's about not being able to help out in a crisis.

Do taxis not run in a crisis? confused

I'm sorry but some people have an unhealthy obsession with cars...to the point where they think their whole life will crumble without one.

I'm 43yrs old and when I was growing up most families managed perfectly well with just one car between them all...and that's if they had a car at all.

No we seem to have got to a stage in the last 30 years where no bugger will walk anywhere or even consider using public transport.

It's ridiculous.

BunFagFreddie Thu 27-Dec-12 14:21:23

Also, how do all these people who think non-drivers are a PITA actually know that they don't have a good reason for not driving?

Fwiw, I have epilepsy and my bipolar and epilepsy meds can make me a bit spaced out, so not really safe to drive. The way people seem to feel entitled to quiz me about my non-driving is frankly very rude. Why tf should I have to disclose my medical history to them and explain myself, just because they think I "should" drive. It's getting to the point where I'm very tempted to tell the next person who quizzes me to mind their own business, it's really just a matter of time!

OP's sibling is obviously different, however, many people just don't want to advertise their personal circumstances to others.

RobinSucksInTheSnow Thu 27-Dec-12 14:22:00

I'm form a place where driving is pretty necessary, due to where we are and the crap public transport. When I learnt to drive I had an older cousin who didn't, we used to take the mick a little. Then my aunt pulled me aside and said he wasn't allowed to drive due to a medical condition but was ashamed to tell us, he'd told us it was because he didn't want to. So YABU if you just assume that people who don't drive tell the absolute truth about it.

Nowadays I'm a non-driver by choice, I moved to an area (greater London) with much better public transport. I've been in a car maybe 4 times in the whole year and I know I've never put anyone out!

Nancy66 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:22:05

I don't care if people drive or not.....but I do get pissed off with people that are very militant non-drivers but very quick to accept an offer of a lift and never offer any petrol money.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Thu 27-Dec-12 14:22:26

I wouldn't be able to help out in a crisis like taking elderly people to hospital even of I did drive, I have two young children and live half hours drive from elderly relatives.

And no Santa probably not, they could come to me but I wouldn't go trekking on a Sunday bus time in winter with two children because they want me to come round for coffee. Quite happy to make them a coffee at mine if they didn't feel like picking me up and taking me home again. Tbh apart from Sunday dinners (not very often) with family everyone comes to me anyway apart from my mum (and she only lives 5minutes down the road)

I'm not prepared to spend my spare money on a car when it would be sat on the drive more time then it's used.

Amytheflag Thu 27-Dec-12 14:22:47

YABU.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:22:52

Harsh insacerre. The OP is getting at non drivers who impose on her, not just any non drivers.

No she isn't

She's tarring everyone who doesn't drive with the same brush.

I moved out of 'home' at 17, worked 4 jobs to ,ale ends meet and didn't have enough money or time to learn whilst young, too busy keeping a roof over my head.
I just walked everywhere.

Now I'm learning at the grand old age of 33 as I now live in a rural location.

YABU as you don't know the circumstances as to why they don't drive.

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 14:23:33

YABU.

Our shopping is home delivered, we get taxies; buses do a lot of walking, biking.

I can't see how we put anyone out.

We always sort out how to get places at correct times and never ask for help.

We've had two lifts in last two years - as someone at a DC party couldn't believe our 3 year old would happily walk so far as home. They insisted – I accepted one lift with DC and DH another – next party she walked twice as far home with no lift and was happy.

It's people attitudes not the none driving.

My IL don’t drive – they get driven round a lot and do seem to be expectant of others driving them round. They are part of the reason – other being money- that we don’t drive.

FunnysFuckingFreezing Thu 27-Dec-12 14:23:43

So for the folk who don't drive, aren't you even a bit curious about learning? Don't you wish you could?

I learned to drive as soon as I realistically could ie 21 and really can't imagine not being able to. I would resent the lack of freedom. Mind you I do live out in the sticks and have always needed a car.

forgetmenots Thu 27-Dec-12 14:23:49

Only a nuisance if they expect others to drive them. Then it's not a driving problem it's an attitude problem.

I don't drive for medical reasons. I spend a fortune on taxis and public transport. Would never assume or expect a lift, YANBU to think that's a PITA but it's not about being a non-driver! smile

Tee2072 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:24:51

If an elderly relative needed my help, I would pay for a taxi. Probably less than using a car.

I don't drive. I never ask for lifts. I walk or bus or train or taxi.

How is that imposing on a driver.

YABU and mean.

FunnysFuckingFreezing Thu 27-Dec-12 14:25:00

so Sugarplum You don't drive because your IL's don't drive and if you did they would ask for lifts everywhere? that's mad that is grin

There are amazing inventions these days- things such as buses and cabs :D

How about this, instead of insisting that everyone in the world learns how to drive, you just say NO when you don't want to drive people?

Isn't that a bit more efficient?

Anyway it doesn't matter if people know how to drive if they don't have a car, which for many many people is just not a practical thing to own.

ifancyashandy Thu 27-Dec-12 14:26:37

I have failed my test 3 times and had a panic attack behind the wheel. Would you still prefer me to be a driver?

You probably think I'm weak. But up yours. With the greatest respect.

I don't ever ask for lifts, I expect to get public transport and pay for taxis. And if someone offers me a lift, I always offer to pay for petrol

Oh, and on that 'weakness' thing - I run multi million pound budgets and teams of up to 60 people in a very very stressful and public environment. But yeah, I'm weak hmm

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 14:26:41

santashohoho From the op, first line in fact- "Barring situations where an illness or financial circumstances proscribe it aibu to think adults who can't drive are a PITA"
That's a very thick tarring brush the op has there.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:27:05

Funnys I don't drive and nor does my DH but we both can.

The difference is we choose not to because we don't need to

And we certainly don't put upon anyone for lifts.

Actually I think with the stupid price of petrol and everything else, there'll be a lot more people giving up their cars in the future - if they live somewhere that means they don't actually need one.

monkeymamma Thu 27-Dec-12 14:27:17

Yanbu. And I say this as a non-driver (and self-confessed pita). Currently taking lessons and after nearly 15yrs of trying I hope to pass my test early next year. If everyone on this thread could please keep their fingers crossed for me I'd be very very grateful!

SofaKing Thu 27-Dec-12 14:27:52

What an upsetting post.

So not damaging the environment, contributing to congestion, obesity, and running the risk of killing yourself and other people every time you want to get somewhere fast is selfish behaviour?

Perhaps you should give up your car for a week and manage on public transport. Then maybe you'd realise how ignorant it is to organise meetings somewhere you can only drive to, and then moan if the non-driving person can't make it or asks for a lift?

Yabu. Driving cars causes more deaths than anything else. It really shouldn't be socially acceptable at all, but it is because it is so convenient. Posts like yours are frightening because you can't seem to see driving as the sadly necessary evil it is, not a dangerous pursuit that everyone should be happy to do.

And as and aside, do you realise if the 50% non driving adult population suddenly took to the road congestion would be so bad you couldn't travel anywhere?

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 14:28:20

I got the bus when DH was in hospital in a different city - I did need help then I admit someone to look after the DC as it was too late for them by bus.

TBH though they made it plain the DC weren't welcome on the ward anyway - despite Dh being desperate to see them so even driving I'd have needed help.

As soon as he was home - we hired a wheel chair and I pushed him with the DC in tow in various forms to GP then got him on the bus.

NotLinda Thu 27-Dec-12 14:29:08

I have three non driving relatives and we live in a small rural town. every xmas dh and I host, and there are up to 14 people who join us. On top of all the xmas prep and planning, we also end up having to co-ordinate transport for them.

it is very irritating, but also all bound up with other annoying relative issues.

Brandybutter, your attitude sucks. If the OP has even one friend or relative like you, then no wonder they feel as they do.

for me its non driving relatives that are the issue. i have no non driving friends and if i did, i know they'd be considerate as i dont tolerate free loading friends in any form! grin

as an aside, i think my lovely but self absorbed db is genuinely annoyed that my mum and i moved somewhere semi rural, as it makes his visits to see us more tricky transport wise!

fatlazymummy Thu 27-Dec-12 14:29:16

YABU. I don't drive, and it's got fuck all to do with you.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:30:00

I don't drive and I don't expect anyone to ferry me about either.

So shove your car where the sun don't shine.

MerylStrop Thu 27-Dec-12 14:30:38

"It's not a driving problem, it's an attitude problem"
^ this

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 14:30:43

I don't care about non-drivers.

Just as long as they're happy to catch the bus or get a cab.

Having said that. I always give lifts when I can. But I draw the line at a 5/10 min radius from where I'm going.

Otherwise, I tell the non-drivers that I'm leaving at x time and they'll be welcome to come if they want. I wouldn't rearrange plans to suit a non-driver who can pay for a cab.

Finally, about not drinking. If you were alone you would automatically be the designated driver. So, if you wanted to drink, you'd get a cab, right? So, why not with the non-driver - and share the bill as well?

I'm afraid YABU.

strumpetpumpkin Thu 27-Dec-12 14:30:52

i dont drive and dont ask people for lifts. well maybe occasionally my mum or my dp, but not often.

I am actually taking driving lessons now, but its hard because i suspect im dyspraxic although nothing diagnosed, but ive been taking lessons for nearly 3 years now and failed 7 times

DontmindifIdo Thu 27-Dec-12 14:31:02

Crashdoll - How does someone getting the bus to work affect you?!

because very few people only need to go to work and back. If you have to rely on public transport or lifts, then you are limiting group meet ups to places on the bus route or giving you a lift, it has to be factored in by everyone else. While you could get a taxi to/from the pub so you don't need a lift, you can also never "take it in turns" to do the driving. You can never be the one to take granny to the hospital, never be the one who gets called at 3am because how would you get there when the buses aren't running etc.

It's not that you have to ask for lifts, the assumption is that a driver will offer.

However, a lot of non-drivers do go out of their way to minimise the effect they have on others, sounds like the OPs siblings don't.

I will be teaching DS as soon as he's old enough to learn to drive, I do think it's an important life skill and even if he can't afford a car for a few years, as I couldn't when I first left home, it will be useful. Having a licence (when I couldn't afford a car) did mean that for example when my DB moved house and needed someone to drive his car when he drove the van he could add me on to his insurance for a couple of days to help out. I was able to take it in turns to drive a hire car on a holiday so someone else didn't always have to be the one driving and not having a drink with dinner etc.

SantasENormaSnob Thu 27-Dec-12 14:31:14

As long as it doesn't impact upon me I couldn't care less tbh.

Although the none drivers I do know seem to rely heavily on others for lifts. Fortunately it's not me they ask grin

DameMargotFountain Thu 27-Dec-12 14:31:45

i can drive, meaning i hold a current driving licence, but choose not too

<only added comment to piss OP off even more>

BunFagFreddie Thu 27-Dec-12 14:31:57

SofaKing, I must applaud you! People really should put the environment over convenience. The UN's Agenda 21 has already outlined that there are plans to get people off the roads, at some point giving up your car will be an inevitability. I'm willing to put money one that.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Thu 27-Dec-12 14:33:57

Could someone give me a really good reason to drive please?

I live in walking distance to shops and school

I get my asda shop done online, also clothes and such

I live in a city

I have 3 different bus routes and a stop right outside my house, I could wait by my window see the bus and run out my door to catch it I live that close to the bus stop

I don't have spare money 7days travel for me is £16

I go on holiday and still use trains and such and have never had a problem

Going out with friends we all catch buses so we can drink anyway, or one person is the driver and gets money off all of us for picking us up and taking us home

My elderly relatives are not that elderly yet and still drive

I am quite capable of walking, catching buses and trains if I want to take dc out and they walk miles and miles sometimes and enjoy it.

For family stuff I have a brother a sister a mum nana and stepdad, someone put of them will be driving and will pick me up. I always give petrol money. If I was driving I would still want a lift off of the nominated driver

I really can't see how a car would benefit my life.

FutTheShuckUp Thu 27-Dec-12 14:35:55

Ineedofbrandybutter- you sound just like the kind of non driver that irritates the OP and many others. Why should you not make any effort to see friends or family?

SugaricePlumFairy Thu 27-Dec-12 14:36:01

OP reserve your irritation for your annoying non driving sibling who's pissing you off grin.

Have another drink, or are you driving? wink

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:37:06

DontmindifIdo I don't expect anyone to go out of my way nor to organise my life. How patronising that you think us non-drivers need that! P.S. there are these wonderful inventions called taxis that I tend to utilise quite frequently.

I don't drive for medical reasons but I get a lot of stick for not doing so. It seems to be a topic of conversation in my family even though I organise myself 99.9% of the time.

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 27-Dec-12 14:37:21

InNeed sounds like you don't need one smile

In my day to day life I generally don't need my car,I live very close to the city centre. It is handy for visiting my family though as they don't live particularly close to me and currently driving my car is cheaper than getting the bus shock

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:37:32

because very few people only need to go to work and back. If you have to rely on public transport or lifts, then you are limiting group meet ups to places on the bus route or giving you a lift, it has to be factored in by everyone else. While you could get a taxi to/from the pub so you don't need a lift, you can also never "take it in turns" to do the driving. You can never be the one to take granny to the hospital, never be the one who gets called at 3am because how would you get there when the buses aren't running etc.

It's not that you have to ask for lifts, the assumption is that a driver will offer. [QUOTE]

Thank you Don'tmind

You have summed up exactly what I meant.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 14:38:12

I'm sure lots of people would be willing to give up their cars if public transport was better, more reliable and less expensive. But that's never going to happen, so people will understandably keep their cars.

I have to have a car because I work in the middle of nowhere and there is shite public transport where I live. On the occasions where I could use public transport, I choose not to because it is more expensive. I live about an hour outside London, and we frequently take the dc into London. It is much much cheaper to pay for the petrol and parking, even in central London, than it is for a family of four to take the train.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 14:39:23

Bit over the top. What about situations where the driving sibling has to do all the ferrying around of an elderly parent; can't help out with lifts and stuff when a relative is in hospital and so on. It's not just about looking for lifts; it's about not being able to help out in a crisis.

What about siblings and relatives who have moved away or who emigrated? Should they all return to the home town in case an elderly relative needs a lift?

BunFagFreddie Thu 27-Dec-12 14:40:08

I don't understand this designted driver for a night out. People I know usually all chip in for a taxi so everyone can drink.

SantasENormaSnob Thu 27-Dec-12 14:40:48

Brandybutter, so you expect your family to give you lifts or go to you or you won't see them? hmm

Nice.

DizzyHoneyBee Thu 27-Dec-12 14:40:49

I find it annoying when people choose not to drive for no good reason, for example somebody I used to know in their 30s who had passed their driving test and then decided that they didn't want to drive. I used to get asked a lot to give her lifts places.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:41:02

What if you can't afford to run a car?

Should you get into debt in case your old nan needs a lift to the hospital?

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 14:41:07

You can never be the one to take granny to the hospital, never be the one who gets called at 3am because how would you get there when the buses aren't running etc.

Cabs.

But there are other things that non-drivers can do for families, I'm sure. :-)
Like having granny at home while she recovers from hospital.

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 14:41:12

FunnysFuckingFreezing

We don't drive because of money.

However IL were PITA first few years of us being a parent - honestly it was horrible. We could of then started driving as we did had money in savings then and more time- but transport was good we were in a city and why have something else they could be demanding about.

Now I'd be happy to tell them no now - DH still doesn't want to drive - he cites money and his accident and a close call car accident as a DC but I suspect saying no to his parents wanting driving round is still a factor in there somewhere . Now however there isn’t the money for lessons, insurance and buying a car and we still manage well without.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:41:57

I walk to see my mum, you know, with my legs and everything.

wendybird77 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:42:12

I was that person that didn't drive until I needed to when I had DS1 and was no longer commuting to London. It was a giant PITA not to have a car when I was on maternity - couldn't get to NCT meet ups as no public transport to some places. Also mooched off a friend for lifts (she always offered, but I could never return the favour). Now have a friend who has given up her car for environmental reasons, but is always after rides for her and her kids or complains if people suggest a meet up somewhere she can't get to easily. PITA. IMHO having been on both sides YANBU. Obviously though, it doesn't make sense for everyone.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 14:42:14

YAB COMPLETELY bloody unreasonable. And to another poster, there is nothing "wrong" with people who learn later or not at all.

I'm an adult and plan to learn as and when I need to - which I don't at the moment!

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:42:38

Usualsuspect

There is a thread on here about people not reading the OP properly before posting. I suggest you read it.

Enigmosaurus Thu 27-Dec-12 14:43:07

YABU.

We cannot possibly afford driving lessons for me, the cost of theory and practical tests, the cost of a second car, insurance and fuel for it.

Much as I would LOVE to be able to drive, it is impossible at this point in time for me to be able to do so.

snowtunesgirl Thu 27-Dec-12 14:43:16

I don't drive because I live in London and it's too expensive and it would be quicker to take public transport.

OP, YOU are BU, if you're fed up, tell your sibling to take a taxi.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:43:21

I suggest you get off your high horse.

OddBoots Thu 27-Dec-12 14:43:36

It isn't the lack of driving that is a problem, it is the expectation of lifts or that arrangements should revolve around them because they don't drive.

Provided people who want a lift not a taxi/bus/train ask politely for lifts and accept a 'no' if it's given then pay fair petrol money or pay back the favour in another way then they're not being a nuisance.

As far as elderly relatives and the like go, there are other ways to help out so hopefully non-drivers can send food or deal with paperwork instead.

Ifyoulike Thu 27-Dec-12 14:43:39

I'm afraid of driving, had a very bizarre incident many years ago where my mother was trying to teach me, I was crawling alongside a kerb looking for a parking spot, and a child (about 8) suddenly stepped out in front of me. He looked at me and froze, I looked at him and froze, the car was still creeping/crawling forward.

I went into some weird head-space where it was like I was under water and couldn't move. My mum was yelling "Brakes, step on the brakes!", but I wasn't moving, and all I could see was this kid's eyes staring into mine, while the car was still moving forward until it bumped into him and began pushing him forward with his hands on the hood.

Luckily suddenly snapped out of it and hit the brakes, and the kid walked off just fine, but it triggered a very deep and real fear that I simply might not be capable enough of driving without being dangerous and hurting someone.

I live in an area where public transport can get me everywhere, and I do try very hard not to inconvenience anyone (never expect lifts etc and always make own arrangements), but just really not sure I have it in me to drive... I'm not sure it would be a good thing to try and pressure everyone into it either (some people just aren't safe, and know it).

MammaTJ Thu 27-Dec-12 14:43:56

I don't drive but the only person whos drinking it limits, which is a good thing it inconveniences is my DP!! grin

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:44:04

I still suggest you read the post properly.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:45:03

I did read it, you are saying us non drivers are a pain. I disagree,it's the way of AIBU.

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:45:50

There are some very patronising people on here making sweeping statements such as; non drivers expect arrangements to fit around them. Maybe you just have entitled, selfish friends and should consider looking for new ones?

Megan74 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:46:38

YANBU.

This is a real bug bear of mine. Fine if you don't expect lifts but otherwise very annoying. None of DHs family drive and all all live in the arse end of no where so on the rare occasion we visit, not only do we spend 6 hours getting to them by car but then have to ferry them about so we can all be in the same room. They never visit us as they "can't drive" or bother themselves to book a train. Grrrrr.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:46:45

Yes, Usual but I did specify I wasnt talking about people where financial circumstances proscribed it.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:47:11

OP you're really scraping the barrel now with your 'reasons' grin

'Group meetups' don't have to be on the bus route. Some of us use the legs and brains we were given and are quite capable of planning journeys without needing a lift.

I suspect your world would fall apart if you lost your licence tomorrow wouldn't it?

DontmindifIdo Thu 27-Dec-12 14:47:29

But Lueji - the thing is, if there are 2 siblings and neither drives, then cabs will be used, but if one drives and the other doesn't, the driver gets called. In the same way, if 2 siblings live an hour away, they might get called equally, if one lives an hour away and one is in the next street to an elderly relative, the one 5 minutes away is expected to deal with stuff a lot more frequently.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 14:47:33

I don't think that people who don't drive always realise that the nice, kind and thoughtful people in their lives that do drive will feel obliged to give lifts, especially when the weather is horrible, or it's late at night. Even if the non driver doesn't ask, always offers petrol money, they will still be making nice people feel obliged to do them favours, whether they intend to or not.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 14:48:18

The post is just moronic. I find some DRIVERS a PITA, parking in ridiculous places and blocking a route so a fire engine probably couldn't fit down it. But I would never be so rude as to suggest that all drivers are like that.

Seriously, get over it. Our culture has a bloody unhealthy dependency on cars.

MistletoeAndMerryChristmas Thu 27-Dec-12 14:48:27

DH and I don't drive.

We get on buses and trams, i find it much easier then being picked up and getting all the kids in the car.

We are saving for a car this year though as after years and 4 kids its starting to grate a little, for me anyways.

I feel restricted.

He will drive, I won't.

Jenny70 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:49:10

I don't drive, but can't recall the last time a friend drove me anywhere either - I always meet them there (and take public transport or cab)... I go to their house, they come to mine, we meet at a mutual convenient place etc.

Quite frankly I am no nuisance - and if your relatives and friends are then blame them, not EVERYONE who doesn't drive.

Selfish much?

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:49:28

In the same way, if 2 siblings live an hour away, they might get called equally, if one lives an hour away and one is in the next street to an elderly relative, the one 5 minutes away is expected to deal with stuff a lot more frequently

I think the solution is to ensure you all live equal distances from your parents and any other relatives who are either old or prone to illness. It seems like a totally workable situation.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Thu 27-Dec-12 14:50:11

Well my sister moved far away, I work with my mum so I do t need to go over and see her and my nan drives and pops in for a coffee every Tuesday while she's already in the area. Have no need to traipse on a bus with my dc after work to go and see them.

Seeing family is not a good enough reason for me to have no money when I see some of them every day and others at least once a week as they are passing anyway.

Also I don't wish to contribute any more pollution to the earth, I would say drivers are the selfish ones really.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 14:50:29

I can drive. Can't afford to run a car though. I never accept lifts from people and once walked 3 miles in the snow when heavily pregnant because I didn't want to ask a friend for a lift, I didn't ask for a lift because they had been slagging someone off because they were fed up of ferrying her around.

What does annoy me is when people arrange to meet at a lovely picturesque spot in the country that is not accessible by public transport and then they moan because they never see you anymore.

When I had a car I was always giving people lifts it never bothered me in the slightest.

CreamOfTomatoSoup Thu 27-Dec-12 14:51:40

I find people who expect everyone to drive and want to meet up in ridiculously far out shit places a PITA. They always assume everyone drives and then look at you like a freak because you don't. They also use driving as an excuse for not having a drink when actually they're really uptight and could easily have gotten the train, left the car at home and had a bit of fun.
YABU.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 14:52:10

I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one disagreeing vehemently with the OP here.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 14:52:14

OP - lots of people don't drive because they just don't want to for one reason or another.

I drive and if I want to offer people lifts I will. If I don't want to then I won't.

It's called free will.

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 14:52:17

I don't think that people who don't drive always realise that the nice, kind and thoughtful people in their lives that do drive will feel obliged to give lifts, especially when the weather is horrible, or it's late at night. Even if the non driver doesn't ask, always offers petrol money, they will still be making nice people feel obliged to do them favours, whether they intend to or not.

LOL

Non drivers, you are a burden on 'nice, kind and thoughtful' drivers.

Oooh I have one...

Disabled people, you are a burden on 'nice, kind and thoughtful' non-disabled people who just want to sit down in peace in any seat on the bus!

No? Not ok?!

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 14:52:41

I think the solution is to ensure you all live equal distances from your parents and any other relatives who are either old or prone to illness. It seems like a totally workable situation.
LOL

RyleDup Thu 27-Dec-12 14:53:24

YABU op. I have friends that don't drive, they have never put upon me to drive them around. If I do it, its because I want to. If you feel that strongly about it then I suggest you refuse to be the driver.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 14:54:06

And if I didn't have to drive due to work location then Id probably not bother.

I worry about greenhouses gases you see.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 14:54:28

I think you expanded on your thesis is a much less 'magnanimous' way in your subsequent posts, though, OP.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:55:23

I suspect if my sibling was reading this thread she would be on here fulminating 'it's my business if I don't drive. I don't expect lifts and am happy to use public transport' and so on. I don't think non drivers are knowingly or deliberately putting upon people; just that they don't realise how often people are gritting their teeth as they smilingly offer them a lift home in the lashing rain even though it's twenty minutes out of their way or sighing as, yet again, they sip a 7Up on Christmas day because they have to drive elderly mother home afterwards because the non driver can't offer to do it for a change.

Mind you I do live out in the sticks and have always needed a car

You can never be the one to take granny to the hospital, never be the one who gets called at 3am because how would you get there when the buses aren't running etc.

That depends on where you live. It is cheaper to get taxis than to pay for hospital parking, the parking is away from the hospital entrance, so you couldn't take a ill person by yourself anyway.

If it is the middle of the night, the ambulance service should be used, tbh.

We are well served in Liverpool for hospitals, though.

My mother is attending Clatterbridge, they prefer her to travel in hospital transport as the radiation treatment could break a rib, or make her feel very unsteady, so they like to see her home.

The meeting up senario doesn't happen in the circle that i mix in, because we are all drinkers and we always figure in taxi fares.

I have had cars in the past, at the moment i am not driving but have time to care for my mum, with my middle daughter. My sister (the car driver) works too long hours to be of any help.

I am lucky to be able to buy my DD (17) driving lessons until she passes her test, but most people who live around me cannot and there are little opportunities for teenagers, so it is easy to understand why people don't drive.

I live in one of the most expensive insurance areas in the UK, to run a car you have to need it for work, or to have lots of disposable income.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 14:56:24

Crashdoll, that comparison is absolutely ridiculous.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 14:56:25

That's the fault of the people "gritting their teeth" then. They should have some balls and not offer a lift. Don't be ridiculous.

DontmindifIdo Thu 27-Dec-12 14:56:32

Crashdoll - you missed the point, you say that you can get cabs in a crisis, but you'll not need to deal with the crisis if there's a driving sibling who gets called to deal with it instead. As much as people will say "I'll do my fair share just work round it" it's easy to say if you don't get asked as often (in the same way a relative living further away might not even realise how often the other one is being asked to do stuff).

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 14:57:07

Oh, and surprisingly, my life doesn't fall apart if someone doesn't offer me a lift! I'm capable of getting myself around without a car.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:57:57

So you begrudge someone a lift in the rain?

You sound a right charmer.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 14:58:01

Oh and just because someone can drive, it doesn't mean they're any good at it.

Some people are just an accident waiting to happen but they're too bloody self centered to use public transport.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 14:58:04

Oh and I love crashdolls solution of all siblings living equidistant lay from aged parents grin

Wouldn't want one person spending more on fuel than another now would we?

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 14:58:16

They also use driving as an excuse for not having a drink when actually they're really uptight and could easily have gotten the train, left the car at home and had a bit of fun.

People can enjoy themselves without drinking! hmm

If anything, it makes you uptight if you can't enjoy a night out without an alcoholic drink.

noddyholder Thu 27-Dec-12 14:58:40

I am a nuisance ten but never expect anyone to drive me

Again OP, that may be the case in your family, my mum lives within walking distance of those who are happy to have her for Christmas.

She also gets the higher rate attendance allowance, so can afford taxi's.

In my family, we are required to be on call, so often cannot drink, anyway.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 14:59:01

It's not about 'having balls'. It's about not wanting to appear rude or disobliging.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 14:59:47

Me and my non-driving sisters do more for my mum than my driving brother ever has.

Thats because we are nice and hes a bit of a twat though.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 14:59:58

OP you sound very bitter over something which really is a non issue.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:00:15

equidistantly even.

Stoopid iPad.

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 15:00:17

yet again, they sip a 7Up on Christmas day because they have to drive elderly mother home afterwards because the non driver can't offer to do it for a change.
Surely elderly mother can be taken home in a cab, so that you can drink.
Your choice to leave the car at home or not.
What if you were an only child? Would you blame your mother for not having more children?

Personally, I took DS home by car on Christmas day. So I didn't drink more than a glass of wine at lunch.
PITA DS?

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:00:20

Oh, behave Usual.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:00:54

Ah, I see then - we should all drive and have a car just so poor drivers don't feel obliged to offer lifts when it's raining.

hmm

ImperialSantaKnickers Thu 27-Dec-12 15:01:20

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who don't read OPs, and then respond to the wrong question. This thread's been a classic example - the very first sentence is 'Barring situations where an illness or financial circumstances proscribe it aibu to think adults who can't drive are a PITA.' And then a dozen posters write in all upset that the OP is calling them a PITA, because they are not able to drive for various medical reasons/can't afford to learn. Excuse me????

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 15:01:57

Of course my comparison was ridiculous, that was the bloody point! grin That post was ridiculous labelling drivers as 'kind'. It's stupid to label one group of people in a favourable light to suit your own agenda.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:02:04

What about the posters who don't drive for reasons other than illness and financial circumstances?

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 15:02:09

So you begrudge someone a lift in the rain?

If its well out of my way and going to make me get home even later than it would have been when it was already going to be a late night, yes, I do. As is my prerogative. I'd also begrudge it on behalf of my husband who doesn't drink so often gives people lifts, when he's been at work that day and already had to drive for two or more hours.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:02:15

Those poor put upon drivers with their painted on smiles. sad

MerylStrop Thu 27-Dec-12 15:02:47

Atthewelles, you are only talking about your own circumstances.

Most non-drivers take responsibility for themselves, as this thread attests. if your sibling treats you like a doormat that's your problem.

World would be a better place if owning a car became as socially inacceptable as smoking.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 15:03:47

Ah, I see then - we should all drive and have a car just so poor drivers don't feel obliged to offer lifts when it's raining

No, of course not. You just shouldn't believe that you never put anyone else out unless you are never offered lifts.

MerylStrop Thu 27-Dec-12 15:03:51

LOL at usual suspect

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 15:03:58

I have an umbrella- it's very useful when it's raining and unlike the wicked witch of the west, non-drivers do not melt when it rains.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:04:01

Usual grin

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:04:20

* I don't think non drivers are knowingly or deliberately putting upon people; just that they don't realise how often people are gritting their teeth as they smilingly offer them a lift home in the lashing rain even though it's twenty minutes out of their way or sighing as, yet again, they sip a 7Up on Christmas day because they have to drive elderly mother home afterwards because the non driver can't offer to do it for a change.*

And perhaps you don't realise the non driver is gritting their teeth wondering what sort of drama llama worries about rain? Is getting wet such a big deal? confused

And again, do you martyr on with your 7UP rather than phone a taxi? If so that's your problem.

You remind me of my DS's friend's Mum who insists on picking her son up from school when it rains. It's a 20 minute walk that's all and she seems to think he's going to dissolve.

That's her business but it pisses me off that she also insists on driving my DS home too...I mean to the point where he gets in the car just to keep her happy confused

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:04:30

I think the OP said she DID mind having the 7Up, though, FestiveElement.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:04:37

Do you not think your DH is capable of deciding for himself then Festive?

Surely that's his decision? confused

DontmindifIdo Thu 27-Dec-12 15:04:50

worra -
'Group meetups' don't have to be on the bus route. Some of us use the legs and brains we were given and are quite capable of planning journeys without needing a lift.

Whistlestopcafe -
What does annoy me is when people arrange to meet at a lovely picturesque spot in the country that is not accessible by public transport and then they moan because they never see you anymore.

see, in order to avoid Whistlestop's problem, you do have to factor in one person's non-driving in arranging meet ups. Personally, if it's someone I like, I'll factor it in or offer to give them a lift. The person having allowances made for them might never realise it's happening.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:07:07

OP YABU for drinking 7Up.

Could at least have splashed out on some Schloer.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:07:57

Do you only mind factoring in non-driving, though, where it's non-related to disability or financial reasons?

Do you make your friends take tests on this beforehand?

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 15:10:22

Salmotrutta, in theory, you are right. But some people don't like to say no and don't like to appear like they are being selfish if they don't offer. I'd have thought any decent bloke would feel obliged to offer a woman a lift home if its dark and the public transport is either non existent meaning she has to walk a fair distance alone, or is infrequent meaning that she would have to wait at the train station or bus stop alone.

It's just being gentlemanly, and I like that about my DH. I just feel for him when I know he's had enough of driving but then feels like the right thing to do would be to give a lift.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:10:31

Dontmind I see what you mean but it would have to be very remote to be unreachable by a taxi from the nearest train station.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 15:12:39

If I started a thread saying that all car owners are a pain in the arse the consensus would be that I am being unreasonable.

If you feel put upon leave your car at home and ask someone else for a lift for a change.

This thread struck a chord with me because two of my antenatal friends arranged a meet up next week with the children at a family friendly cafe. This morning I received a text saying that the venue has changed and the meet up will be at a museum 10 miles away which is not accessible by public transport. They know damn well that I can't get there. I replied saying I hope you have a nice time but I can't get there so won't be coming. One of them has replied saying "that's a real shame, ds was really looking forward to seeing your ds, you cancelled last time too!"

Yes I cancelled last time because you changed the venue to a remote country pub that I can't get to!

FunnysFuckingFreezing Thu 27-Dec-12 15:13:31

there's a whole lot of sad around today usual. I think it's the post Christmas come down.

FWIW I rarely offer anyone a lift because basically it's a PITA and I am too shellfish.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:13:37

Why did they change it whistlestopcafe? Seems pointless as well as unfair.

BunFagFreddie Thu 27-Dec-12 15:14:53

Whilst OP did write 'Barring situations where an illness or financial circumstances proscribe it aibu to think adults who can't drive are a PITA.'

A great many people only choose to disclose their health issues and financial issues to certain people. If you know a PITA non driver, they might just prefer it if you didn't know about their illness etc.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:15:18

I think I'd take the hint Whistle grin

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:15:42

Festive- my DH is a good sort too but he makes up his own mind about offering lifts and whatnot. If he offers I don't begrudge it.

Why would I?

It's his choice. What with him being a grown man and all.

FunnysFuckingFreezing Thu 27-Dec-12 15:16:16

Worra that's me then. There are no trains where I live, none at all. Not a rail in sight

Allergictoironing Thu 27-Dec-12 15:16:48

I was lectured by a non-driving friend a few years ago about how she didn't see the need for anyone to have their own car. This was while we were driving through the West Country on holiday together (in my car ofc), deciding where to visit while travelling & finding really obscure off the beaten path places - and I mean literally as we were driving along the lanes she was lecturing me!

I wouldn't say that all adult non-drivers are a pain, but some certainly don't really think about how they can inconvenience others. Also some who are able to live their lives easily e.g. live in a town with good transport & close to relatives, can be a PITA saying that because THEY don't need to drive, then why should anyone else need to.

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 15:18:02

Whistle, are cabs to those locations that expensive?

Although, I'd be questioning the friendship if they changed the location without consulting you first.

manicbmc Thu 27-Dec-12 15:19:40

I tried learning to drive and found (after rather a lot of lessons) that I am absolutely awful at it and have no road sense whatsoever - so would it be a good idea for me to drive?

I think it's a silly, sweeping generalisation. Not everyone who doesn't drive then puts upon others for lifts and the ones that do would probably continue to even if they could drive.

LettyAshton Thu 27-Dec-12 15:19:53

I can see both sides here and of course there are many differing situations.

But I do agree that there is a set of people (especially older women, I find) who have never learnt to drive and think they should be chauffered around at their convenience. My mother would never dream of getting a taxi because of the cost, but would quite happily have me drive hundreds of miles back and forth/here there and everywhere without a sniff of a petrol money contribution. And I remember at my wedding my mother's sole concern was the transportation of elderly relatives and what time they would want to leave etc.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 15:20:21

They changed it Cinnamonnut because they are a bit sick of eating and wanted to do something else which is fair enough. I get the impression sometimes that they think I should hire a car or ask dh to take the day off and take me there. Or perhaps they just don't realise that places that are round the corner in the car can take all day to get to by bus.

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 15:21:20

I was lectured by a non-driving friend a few years ago about how she didn't see the need for anyone to have their own car.
She does have a point.
If you don't have a car, you can still rent one to have those random drives up and down the country.

I do have a car, mostly because it is less hassle to go to and from places, than calling a cab, etc.
But I think it would be cheaper in the long run, probably, if you have shops close by and don't need to drive that much.

Anniegetyourgun Thu 27-Dec-12 15:21:51

In one of my more assertive moods I might well have pulled over and said cheerily "out you get, then", and watched her splutter.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 15:21:52

Yes, it is his choice, but sometimes people can be more selfless than they should be and they need someone else to point out to them that it's ok for them not to bend over backwards to suit everyone else.

My DH is a softy and will do anything for anyone, he makes it quite easy for others to take advantage of him.

So yes, while it is his choice, as someone who loves him I would prefer him to put himself first sometimes, rather then make a choice to do someone else a favour and then end up over tired because he's got to bed an hour later than he would have done if someone had refused his offer of a lift.

Thankfully he has stopped offering as much as he used to.

FestiveElement Thu 27-Dec-12 15:23:30

Whistle can't you take a taxi to the meet up? The other probably just wanted to go to the museum, there's nothing wrong with that.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:23:50

My Dsis only gets pissed off at me for not driving when she's actually pissed off at me for something else. (Given that she last gave me a lift in 1998.)

SantasHoHoHo Thu 27-Dec-12 15:23:51

I think your friends are inconsiderate Whistle. Even if the new venue had been accessible by car you may have not liked it. It's really not on to change the venue without agreement from ALL parties invited.

Celticlassie Thu 27-Dec-12 15:24:34

Why would you offer people lifts if you resent it so much?
I don't drive because I have no need it. My parents live far away, I walk a lot and live close to excellent public transport links. If someone arranges to meet up somewhere with no public transport links (and they never have) then I wouldn't go. I never take a lift unless the person offering is literally passing my door.
I also think Brits are too reliant on their cars - no wonder the environment's fucked and we're in the midst of an obesity crisis. I work with people who also live within 15 mins walk of their workplace (as I do) and yet drive every day.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:25:29

Well good on him for offering less nowadays.

[smil]

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:25:53

smile even!

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 15:26:24

grin Atthewellies you are probably right. The thing is I genuinely couldn't give a monkeys if they change the arrangements to my detriment, I'm quite laid back and don't fuss over stuff like that but I am mildly annoyed that they seem to think it's me who has decided not to meet up.

The taxi fare is about £20 each way, If I had that sort of money I could afford a cat.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:26:38

That was to Festive - slow typing and fast moving thread!

SantasHoHoHo Thu 27-Dec-12 15:27:25

Few of us really need a car but many of us want one. I could cope without it during the week as I can get good public transport to work. At the weekends it's nice to have a car to get to the more awkward places. I have a friend who also doesn't need a car but chooses not to have one because I can ferry her to the awkward places.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:27:30

I did say in my OP that I'd been spending too much time with my non driving sibling (who is great in every other way).

Okay, maybe a bit of a generalisation but there are a lot of non drivers who just seem to assume that there will always be someone around to give them a lift and there are a lot of drivers who just feel mean if they don't offer someone a lift in the lashing rain or late at night or when they've a lot of shopping to carry etc.
Also, a lot of elderly people see cabs as a huge extravagance and wouldn't dream of allowing one to be called to bring them to a hospital appointment or into town to do a lot of shopping insisting that "I'll just get the bus. It won't be any trouble". To pre-empt that, the driver has to offer to bring them.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 15:27:42

A car not a cat! grin

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 15:28:21

Carrying with you the number of a local cab company might be a good way of being nice without having to offer a lift. grin

The other day, I told a very good friend of mine that I could not give her a lift because I was in a rush to get somewhere. She could take a bus just outside where we were and wouldn't have to wait. We're still good friends, and I did give her a lift when it was pouring and I had time to do it.
It's all about boundaries.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:28:29

Well I have to say this is the first thread I've ever read where people are wishing there were more cars on the road.

Only on MN.... grin

Then ask those who don't let their kids play out in the street and 9 times out of 10 they'll say, "It's because there's far more traffic than there was when I was a child"...

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:29:06

Yes, not many cats cost you £20 each way! grin

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:29:55

My elderly mum catches the bus into town nearly everyday because she has a free bus pass.

Allergictoironing Thu 27-Dec-12 15:30:12

Annie you KNOW this particular woman - you would never have had her in the car in the first place!

Lueji I would also pick her up to go out for the day quite often (though she WAS good at offering petrol money), plus she had 2 other friends who she would go out with (in their cars) on a regular basis. Yes she had shops reasonably close, she was fit & healthy, and lived right by the bus stop. She dismissed my remarks about a farming family I know who had 3 busses each way per WEEK, bus stop about 3 miles from home, nearest shops of any kind by that same bus stop and a disabled family member.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:31:26

Also, a lot of elderly people see cabs as a huge extravagance and wouldn't dream of allowing one to be called to bring them to a hospital appointment or into town to do a lot of shopping insisting that "I'll just get the bus. It won't be any trouble". To pre-empt that, the driver has to offer to bring them.

But why does the driver have to 'pre-emt' that and offer to bring them?

Unless they're so arrogant they think elderly people don't know their own minds? hmm

qo Thu 27-Dec-12 15:31:53

I've failed my practical driving test no fewer than 5 times - I literally could not afford to keep going after that. I'm 40 and hate being a non-driver with a passion. When I do a late shift at work, I have to wait an hour and a half for the next bus home, as if doing a late finish isnt bad enough!!

I would rather struggle and put myself out than ask for a lift, I hate inconveniencing anyone for any reason (not just lifts)

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:32:50

Older people have a free bus pass, to give them independence.

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 15:33:36

or are too senile to get on the right bus and get off at the right bus stop

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:34:08

Because Worra a lot of the time they're saying it to 'not be a nuisance'. I would hate to make an elderly relative of mine feel that so would always offer a lift (especially to a hospital appointment) rather than let them set off on a bus. But sometimes I wish my sibling could do it - for instance if it's a day when it's awkward to take time off work.

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 15:35:16

But what is wrong with getting a bus to the hospital?

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:36:23

My bus is full of elderly people and shopping trolleys doing their own shopping. So not a lot of pre-empting going on in my neck of the woods.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:37:25

Then that's up to them isn't it?

They don't want to be a nuisance, they don't want to fork out for a taxi, they're perfectly capable of getting a bus.

Butt out like your brother has and stop with the ridiculous idea that everyone should buy a car just in case someone decides to get the bus to hospital.

Honestly, your brother must think you're being totally ridiculous.

Roseformeplease Thu 27-Dec-12 15:37:51

Am enjoying the number of people telling everyone that non-drivers can get cabs or the bus or walk. This is the metro-centric part of Mumsnet at work. Where I live, there is one taxi driver who is available as and when she wants to be. There is no one else when she is off and she will only drive between three local villages. There are two trains a day in each direction, one a day on Sundays. There is a morning and evening school bus and one other bus to the next town, each way.

The only other alternative, for the non-driver, is to cadge lifts. These are freely offered, and accepted as, in a small community, you will be repaid in other ways: jam, some fish or a helping hand with something.

I live 3 miles from a shop of any description. My children are 3 miles from school. Our nearest supermarket is 45 miles away and does not do home delivery.

But, I think the issue here is not lifts, or car ownership but the assumption (by soem people) that a car owner is really a taxi driver in disguise. The problem is in the relationship between driver and passenger. I too had to stay sober on Christmas Day to pick up and return a non-driving guest. But I offered, and wanted to. yANBU in your situation to say no but YABU to generalise about all non-drivers.

Those of you in cities ABU as well as you seem to forget that we don't all live there!

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:38:10

Well, in this LA elderly or non-driving patients can get hospital transport minibuses that pick them up and bring them home.

Admittedly the journey times are variable but the service is there to be used.

Anniegetyourgun Thu 27-Dec-12 15:38:22

You're quite right, Allergic. If she were ever in my car it would be in the boot after I'd strangled her for some equally annoying comment.

You should have taken a video camera with you on that holiday, it would have been an instant YouTube classic.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:38:24

It's ok to get the bus to the hospital you know. In fact it's such a PITA to park at our hospital it's preferable to catch the bus.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:38:25

Nothing in a lot of cases insancerre but I'm talking about situations where someone is very elderly, will be sitting around a waiting room for ages, will be a bit nervous or whatever and you just feel it would be much nicer if someone collected them than left them to walk down to the bus stop and possibly wait for ages. I dont mean elderly people should never get on a bus, just that there are times when it seems awful not to offer a lift, particularly if they're quite frail or not very well.

Allergictoironing Thu 27-Dec-12 15:38:27

insancerre there's no problem IF you are fit & healthy or there's a single bus you can get viryually door to door and be guaranteed a seat. As someone with an intermittant disability, I would be wrecked for a couple of days if I had to stand on a bus for ages, or walk long distances from bus stops, and I'm not what you would class as elderly either.

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 15:38:51

Tell your sibling you can't, because of work.
If he complains that he doesn't have a car, then tell him that's what cabs are for.

He CAN do it. He just won't.

I have a friend who doesn't drive, although she has a license (oh, well), and she takes either buses or cabs to hospital for her dad when her H can't.

flow4 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:40:00

I only passed my driving test last year, at the grand old age of forty-something... I raised two kids without a car, commuted, shopped, went to hospital appointments, etc...

At first, it was just an 'accident' that I couldn't drive: I started learning in my teens, but then my mum died and my dad had a nervous breakdown, and life got a bit messy for a while... Then I was a student and couldn't afford it... Then it suited my politics and beliefs about protecting the environment... Then I was a single parent and totally broke...

Finally, I had the spare money and the motivation to learn, basically because it became clear that my elderly father was going to need lifts and help. It still took me over a year to pass my test, which I finally did 2.5 months before he died.

I have very mixed feelings about being a driver now: on the one hand, it gives me much more flexibility and independence: I can go where I want, more-or-less when I want. smile Commuting is much less stressful, because a 5 minute delay means I'm 5 minutes late - not an hour late because I missed a train hmm. And it's satisfying to be able to give lifts to other people who are carless, as I was in until last year. smile

On the other hand, running a car is so expensive that we haven't been able to afford a holiday abroad for the past 3 years - my income allows us one or the other, not both. And my fitness levels have definitely got worse, and driving has made me lazier. sad

I might stop running a car again in a year or two... If I lose my job in the next round of public sector cuts, it will be inevitable. It won't be too much of a loss... Maybe I'll just take up driving again when I'm ready for my mid-life crisis round-the-world road trip?! grin

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:40:16

Can't believe the amount of people on here who wouldn't be bothered about elderly and frail parents having to bus or taxi themselves to hospitals. Nice sad

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 15:44:23

Atthewelles That is below the belt. What do you expect us to do, offer to carry them on our backs? Get a car in case an elderly relative needs a hosp appointment? What about those who work FT and cannot take time off work? Or live far away?

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:44:28

Look, my MIL is elderly and frail.

Me and DH work.

She gets the patient transport minibus.

It collects her and drops her off.

She also enjoys the companionship of the other elderly folk on it.

KristinaM Thu 27-Dec-12 15:44:32

I'm a driver and I blardy LOVE non drivers. They leave more space on the road for me.they never use disabled or parent and child places in the supermarket car park.they don't park dangerously on the pavement outside the school or nursery.

They keep the public transport system going. They walk or cycle more so are probably more healthy and save the NHS money. They don't pollute the environment or produce CO2. They notice all the potholes on the road and pavement and complain to the Council. They campaign for things like cycle ways and safe walking routes to school.

(((((( ))))))) and xxxxxxx to you all. Have a wine and biscuit on me. Cheers !

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 15:44:40

LettyAshton you could be talking about my MIL there. She can't believe my Mother drives.

FIL had more serious reasons – serious accident while he was learning and soon after a sibling killed in a traffic accident. He goes to pieces when he gets behind a wheel.

I was lectured by a non-driving friend a few years ago about how she didn't see the need for anyone to have their own car.

That is just rude. It's also wrong - some places are impossible to live if you don't drive.

We don't drive so we are walking distance to town, 3 + miles, and near a good bus route. I refused to live in a small hamlet with no school or GP and no buses and it was my IL who couldn't understand my reasoning even though we had young DC. We are more rural than we'd like - edge of rural town - but we cope.

whistlestopcafe :Or perhaps they just don't realise that places that are round the corner in the car can take all day to get to by bus.

That is not uncommon IME.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:45:01

Oh dear fucking God! grin

No-one's saying they're 'not bothered' about elderly and frail relatives getting to hospital.

Just that you're one nugget short of a Happy Meal if you think that's a good reason for any non driver to go to the expense of buying a car, if they're perfectly happy without one.

And not all elderly people are frail.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 15:45:06

It made me sad when my sister and mum had to get public transport to get to their hospital appointments. It makes me sad that my Dad has to do the same and he buys his shopping from an expensive 7-11 type shop because he can't get to the large supermarkets because of mobility issues. But what can I do? Get a loan to buy a car and drive 250 miles once a week to help him?

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 15:45:09

Atthewelles That's why it is nice for drivers to offer non-drivers lifts.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:45:18

Does your LA not do patient transport then OP?

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:46:49

My mum is elderly. yes.

But is more than capable of catching a bloody bus, which after all is free.

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 15:47:31

You're right, Roseforme

There are always exceptions to the rules.

But even where there's only one taxi driver, surely it can be booked in advance?

But also, as a driver, it doesn't bother me too much to offer lifts to non-drivers, particularly where there are more difficult circumstances.
They are usually reciprocated somehow.

Particularly elderly relatives, usually they are the kind that have done things for us when we were children. So, only fair to help them.
Regardless of siblings or not.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:48:15

Merry Christmas to you too KristinaM grin

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:48:59

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to step onto a bus, or other mode of public transport, without melting grin

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:49:10

I'm seeing my 80yr old Dad tomorrow, I might ask him if he thinks I should buy a car in case he has a dentist appointment next week or the cat needs a trip to the vets.

I can see his bemused face now...too polite to ask me if I've finally taken leave of my senses grin

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:49:15

No They don't Salmo. My mum would have to get public transport and would arrive home absolutely knackered. No way would I allow that and I know my sister wouldn't be happy about it either.

Worra Do you always pick 'n' mix the bits of posts you wish to argue with as opposed to taking in the entire point? grin

KristinaM Thu 27-Dec-12 15:50:22

< chinks glasses with cinnamon>

LuluMai Thu 27-Dec-12 15:50:35

Some of us simply are incapable of doing it! Why do you assume everyone is able to?

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 15:52:18

Atthewelles What if you and your sister both worked FT? Or lived far away? Or had other responsibilities e.g. disabled child? Shit happens. That's why there's hospital transport/taxis etc.

flow4 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:52:36

Salmo, hospital transport is very variable around the country and not reliable or pleasant in many places. My terminally ill dad had to use it once (before I had passed my driving test), and it (a) picked him up at 8:45 for an 11:30 appointment, (b) left him waiting for 2 hours after his appointment before collecting him to take him home, and (c) altogether meant he had a 6 hour round trip for a 15 minute appointment (and a journey that would have taken about 1.5 hrs by car, including waiting time) and missed his lunch. Not nice when you're dying. sad After that, my brother or I went with him in a taxi, until I passed my driving test...

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 15:53:28

Honestly OP I've taken the entire point but I don't see a single good reason here for any 'normal' (and by normal I mean non lift scrounging) non driver to buy themself a car, and add to the traffic and mayhem that's already out there! grin

I've lived here nearly 18yrs and there are neighbours who I have never seen walking...not even to the local shop which is a 4 minute walk.

They're all obsessed with cars and I think some of them unhealthily so.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:53:39

Oh, my apologies.

It was my understanding that hospital transport for elderly or disabled patients was a standard thing everywhere!

Sounds like we are very lucky here then.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:54:15

Yeah, that's right, OP, I don't give a shit about frail, elderly people. You know that about me by the miracle of petrol fume inhalation, I presume.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:55:39

crashdoll we do both work fulltime and, where possible, my mother will get to the hospital without needing a lift. But sometimes she's just not able to or the hospital stipulate that a particular test will require that she be driven home afterwards. There are lots and lots of situations, particularly as parents get older. where it is really helpful to have a few drivers around to help out.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:56:10

I don't drive and no one has to go out of their way to collect me or drop me off. I live on a regular bus route, and if, for whatever reason, I cannot get a bus to somewhere I need to be, I will get a taxi. I NEVER rely on people to give me lifts, and even when people offer (like a colleague who lives about 5 mins away from me and has offered me lifts home in the bad weather) I will usually say no, and still get the 2 buses home that I get every day! OR, if she does give me a lift, I will get her to drop me off on her way home, and make my own way from there, home.

It really winds me up when drivers tar all non-drivers with the same brush. We are not all entitled, demanding, self centred people who expect everyone else to run around after us! I don't care if you drive so why do you care that I don't?!
It is also not my problem that you choose to drive on a night out and therefore cannot drink... You have the choice to drive or not, either way I will choose to drink or not to drink and still get a taxi home, you driving does not have a bearing on my ride home, because I will still get a taxi. It is your choice, therefore your problem. If you don't want to be "designated driver" don't bloody drive on a night out! If you do choose to drive, and offer lifts, don't play the martyr all night, it is petty and pathetic!

ZenNudist Thu 27-Dec-12 15:56:30

Yanbu, my dsis and BIL can't drive as a result they almost never come and visit us, they are too tight to learn/run a car plus they are too tight to have any place in which we stay if we visit. At Christmas we dragged our dc over to where they live and had to go out for food as we couldn't stay in their house ( I digress). Anyway it's annoying as we not only have to run them about if we are visiting them but also when they visit us. She works for the nhs and has said before its better that they pay for her to get about by taxi as if she drive she would have to pay for her own transport! Cheeky.

MrsAmaretto Thu 27-Dec-12 15:56:32

Good post rosesformeplease there is an assumption that non drivers live in areas with excellent public transport links.

Op YAB a bit U , not all non drivers are a nuisance, but there are those (in my experience) that assume they will get lifts, etc. from driving friends, neighbours and relatives. I suggest you stop giving your brother a lift if it annoys you. I happily pass my colleague every morning as he walks a couple of miles on a single track road to our nearest bus stop. He chooses not to drive, whilst I choose the warmth, convienance and expense of running a car smile

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:56:36

Salmo hospital transport does exist around the country. Some people do have better experiences than others. I wish those experiencing a poor service would complain, so that's its kept up to standard. (Our local newspaper did a good campaign, and got improvements.)

DontmindifIdo Thu 27-Dec-12 15:56:41

Whistlestop - you are either goingto have to start arranging meet ups (and yes, once DCS get over a certain age, a cafe isn't always good for more than a short meet up, you are goingto have to find places you can get to/from easily that you can suggest) or accept you aren't going to be able to make a lot of the meet ups with this group.

HollaAtMeSanta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:56:49

YANBU. Non drivers are deeply annoying. Even if you don't want or need to drive in everyday life, you should be able to do so if required. It's a life skill!

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:57:03

Ah flow - now that's the thing. My MIL is old and frail but she rather enjoys the "day out*.

She isn't terminally ill though and that sounds miserable for what your dad had to go through.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:57:25

Life skill <snigger> please do fuck off, I really don't have to drive if I don't want to.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:58:04

I agree Worra some people over rely on cars and won't even walk to the local shops.. But driving can also be very very handy sometimes. Even if you don't actually own a car it can be handy to offer to share some of the driving from time to time - I just think it's almost a life skill nowadays and most of my friends, as soon as their children turn seventeen, insist on teaching them or getting them lessons.

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 15:58:54

You sound awfully defensive cinnamonnut. Apologies if I've touched a nerve.

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 15:59:06

I've lived here nearly 18yrs and there are neighbours who I have never seen walking...not even to the local shop which is a 4 minute walk.

Same here I wouldn’t mind but we get constant comments from local people about how far the DC walk always with a hint of disapproval. They do walk a long way - sometime they chose to at minute they like long country walks - but often they are just walking round the corner a few streets at most.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 15:59:34

Why would we want more 17 years olds on the roads?

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 15:59:37

life skill? does that mean I have to be able to do it in order to live my life? I must be dead then.
I can't bloody swim either, you might as well shoot me now.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 15:59:39

whistlestopcafe could you not help your dad by ordering a big shop online and have it delivered, so he just needs to buy things like milk, etc from a corner shop?
You don't need a car for that

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 15:59:41

No, atthewelles, I was talking to HollaAtMeSanta

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 15:59:46

Driving is not a fecking life skill.

It's just a skill. Or not, depending on how crap you are at it.

Life skill implies needing it to survive.

Which is patently not true for driving.

I don't drive. And I have survived to be nearly 50yo!

I did try a few lessons in my 20s, and found it reaaally boring tbh.

Living in London,I suppose, public transport links are good. And a car costs so much to run.

And...what are mini cabs for? For me..that's what wink

apostrophethesnowman Thu 27-Dec-12 16:00:05

Oh don't be so ridiculous. Not everyone needs to, or wants to, drive.

If I had a car it would be parked at my front door for 99 percent of the time as I would rarely use it. I commute by train daily. If I go into the city at weekends I use the train because it's quicker and if I drove there parking would be an issue.

I do my grocery shopping online, so have it delivered.

On the odd occasion that I need to go somewhere by car I phone a taxi. This still works out much cheaper than paying for a car I don't need, along with road tax, car insurance and petrol. It makes no economic sense for me to own a car.

I'm perfectly happy with my situation.

I suggest if your sibling was abusing your car-driving skills then you ought to take that up with her and not tar everyone with the same brush.

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 16:00:11

I knew we'd get to 'life skill' at some point. I can drive. I don't drive as I find it physically uncomfortable due to my disability. My family constantly nag me about it. I wish they'd fuck off to be honest.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:01:10

I can't swim either grin I've managed to get to 53 without the driving and swimming life skills.

BitofSparklingPerry Thu 27-Dec-12 16:01:23

The only time it is awkward not being able to drive is when dealing with drivers who think that meeting up in random obscure places is a good idea, which to me is more selfish than me choosing a cheaper and more conveinient method of transport that gets me to everywhere I choose to go to.

Meet in a major town and get a taxi home. i don't know why you would take your car unless you were disabled or going to the arse end of nowhere anyway.

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 16:02:07

YANBU. Non drivers are deeply annoying. Even if you don't want or need to drive in everyday life, you should be able to do so if required. It's a life skill!

Righto, I'm a non driver by choice who learned the 'life skill'.

I haven't been behind the wheel of a car for 11 years.

I'm able to 'do so if required'...but would you be happy to sit in the passenger seat if I did?

No, thought not....

Or should we all take yearly refresher lessons on the off chance we might be 'required' to drive someone somewhere who for some strange reason can't get a taxi...but happen to have a car available that's insured for me to drive?

RubyGates Thu 27-Dec-12 16:02:10

I don't drive anymore. The car has sat in the garage for 6 years and there, I suspect, it will stay.
I live in London. I use buses for work, a bicycle and trailer with a childseat for non-work.
I don't have a social life because I can't afford baby sitters.
I'm an only child and my parents divorced and moved away to different southern counties both over a hundred miles from me. They both drive. They either use their own cars or patient transport to get to appointments.
Do you expect me to move closer to one or other of them to ferry them around? Which one should I choose?
I hire a car if we go ona a long distance holiday, or use coaches and trains.

How in God's name do I inconvenience anybody? YABU
OH doesn't drive either. You should be very, very glad about it. wink

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 16:02:29

Oh dear usual - we are such incompetent bastards, not like we've survived perfectly fine so far is it grin

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:02:34

And seriously? "You should be able to do so if required".

.... That's just about the biggest piece of bs I've ever read on here!,,

Hahahaha!

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 16:03:37

usualsuspect I was too busy learning to breathe and to eat to learn to swim and drive

<<sniggers but can't help it>>

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 16:03:59

DontmindifIdo - I do suggest local venues and I'm not bothered about not making all the meet-ups. What bothers me is that they will organise events to out of the way places and then be annoyed that I can't come. The museum next week would take more than 2 hours each way and a total of 4 buses I could almost walk there in that time!

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 16:04:13

grin

Atthewelles Thu 27-Dec-12 16:04:13

I think some people should look up the definition of 'life skill'. It is not about being able to save your life.

Anyway, have to drive to visit someone now.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:04:14

I agree with apostrophethesnowman

a life skill?? Seriously?
I best go tell my 54 year old mother and my gran who made it to 84 without driving!
I have no interest or inclination to ever drive, but I'm pretty sure I'm still living my life, without this amazing life skill!

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:04:21

Usual* and cinnamount should technically be dead. grin

Crinkle77 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:04:57

I don't drive but would never expect someone to stay sober while I sit there knocking the ale back. I would suggest a taxi. I tried learning but hated every minute of it. Just did not feel confident and was a nervous wreck behind the wheel. Now it's gone so expensive and to run a car and all I hear people do who have cars is moan about how much they cost. I have had two lots of friends recently who have had to have their cars repaired recently and it has cost hundreds of pounds which has put me off even more

Roseformeplease Thu 27-Dec-12 16:05:24

Lueji - taxi can be booked in advance but she often says no, or doesn't pick up the phone, or has a holiday away. All very reasonable but these mean that we do not have a constant service. Many rural areas have no one at all so we are relatively lucky.

Mu1berryBush Thu 27-Dec-12 16:05:36

i can drive but i can't pass the test. i think it's too hard (the test) they need to make it easier. it's ridiculous. i'm giving up. i've spent 20 years on and off trying to pass that fucking test.

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 16:06:39

I did suggest that Tuppence but he wasn't having any of it, he doesn't want to be a nuisance.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:07:04

Actually, I'm in favour of it being even harder to pass.

And I learned when it was frighteningly easy.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 16:07:50

Maybe the ability to use transport is a life skill, but that can include using your own legs or using public transport. It doesn't have to mean driving.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:10:11

The only time it is awkward not being able to drive is when dealing with drivers who think that meeting up in random obscure places is a good idea, which to me is more selfish than me choosing a cheaper and more convenient method of transport that gets me to everywhere I choose to go to.

You say this is selfish of the drivers, but I think it's pretty entitled of you! So friends can only go to places that you find easy to get to? If friends of mine make arrangements to go somewhere "obscure" then I treat the same as going to town. If it is somewhere I want to go, I make the effort to go there, if not, I don't. It is your choice to get public transport like it is their choice to drive, suck it up!

LuluMai Thu 27-Dec-12 16:10:17

Holla,we should be able to do if required? How does one make oneself capable of doing something one cannot do? Magic. The op is ignoring the point about some adults who simply are incapable of driving, it is not always a choice!

I do think that driving is a fairly essential life skill tbh - my siblings and I all learned to drive whilst still living at home, with driving lessons given to us for our 17th birthdays. None of us could afford to run a car at 17, but we had the licence all ready for when we did.

I'll do the same for my dc.

I once dated a man in his 20's who couldn't drive or swim. I was always shock about it.

Agree cinnamonnut...to know the best bus routes and back streets for walking is indeed skillful wink...it takes more than shoving a stick with a knob on up and down.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 16:14:49

Shoving a stick with a knob on up and down grin

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 16:15:33

MrsAmaretto
Good post rosesformeplease there is an assumption that non drivers live in areas with excellent public transport links.

Not really - we knew there were places we couldn't live because we didn't drive.

The place we settled even though its edge of a rural town has good transport links – and it’s walkable to centre which has good train links. It was only a possibility because of its transport links.

It’s different if you’ve grown up somewhere rural with poor links as it’s not your choice. Once you’re an adult you usually have options – either drive or live somewhere where it’s less of an issue.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones
None of us could afford to run a car at 17, but we had the licence all ready for when we did.

That is great - my parents did that for me. I'm getting to late 30s and still haven't found a use for it and would need many lessons to be safe to drive again.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:15:33

I think it's a life skill to know how to get from A to B, doesn't matter how you get there.

blush

Lueji Thu 27-Dec-12 16:15:40

The only time it is awkward not being able to drive is when dealing with drivers who think that meeting up in random obscure places is a good idea

It can also be a PITA arranging a meeting somewhere central where drivers would have to pay for parking, or parking was limited to 2 hours, or they would have to spend hours in public transport instead if they lived further away, I suppose.
There's no pleasing everyone. smile

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 16:16:51

I literally passed my test and have never been behind a car wheel again - they didn't like me driving their car and I left home for poor student life shortly after.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:17:33

You wre shocked that someone couldn't drive or swim Sabrina?

Really?

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 16:18:01

I think that being able to get to where you want to go without a car is more of a life skill.

foreverondiet Thu 27-Dec-12 16:18:07

Their choice not to drive but PITA to expect or demand lifts.

And yes if if my DH couldn't drive it would be a PITA as I would have to drive around the DC etc - however YABU to moan about non drivers in general - eg my SIL doesn't drive, and I think the only person it impacts is her DH.

So on balance YABU - just don't offer lifts.

Nodecentnickname Thu 27-Dec-12 16:18:09

Non car drivers are not the nuisance. Your brother is.
In fact, you and every other car driver are far more of a massive nuisance and inconvenience to non-drivers and their children due to the vast number of pollutants you pump into the atmosphere, just because you are all far too lazy and disorganized to share public transport or walk.

WildWorld2004 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:18:33

If someone paid for me to pass my test and paid for a car i would quite happily drive.

However i do know many people who have become so lazy once they learnt to drive. Some people seem to forget that you can walk to the shop 2 minutes down the road. You dont need to drive there.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:19:04

Hey usual - Sabrina would be shocked by you!

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:20:31

Haha. maybe she doesn't care if women can't drive or swim?

ComposHat Thu 27-Dec-12 16:20:43

Oh Christ not this hot potato again.

I can drive but having lived in largish cities for years haven't had a car until a few months ago when I acquired one for peanuts from a friend of my sister. (it is a nice to have not an essential)

I got around fine on public transport and still use my bike for commuting as taking a car into the city centre is (quite rightly) a no no.

If I am going somewhere and someone needs a lift that way I am more than happy to offer, I wouldn't be so churlish as to demand money for that. If I don't want to give someone a lift I won't offer. I wouldn't be so two faced as to volunteer and then play the martyr when my offer was taken up.

What I do find slightly irritating is my non-driving fiancée's lack of understanding and empathy. Stuff like fiddling with the radio whilst I'm trying to pull off at a busy junction, shouting 'Oh my god' at the top of her voice at something trivial, leading to the odd impromptu emergency stop.

The time that took the biscuit was when I'd driven from Liverpool to Brighton in atrocious weather whilst she napped in the passanger seat. When we arrived I said I was exhausted. I mentioned this to her and her response was 'Don't be silly you've been sitting down and listening to the radio (Ie driving) for most of the day. I bit my tongue but Sshe came very close to being my ex-fiancée at that moment.

Housemum Thu 27-Dec-12 16:21:49

Reading some of the responses on here I now understand why my mother refuses lifts from anyone - she probably thinks they will whinge about her behind her back! She once had a couple of lessons that she hated 40+ years ago but now has absolutely no confidence and would never want to drive even though she could afford to run a car (and my FIL is a trained instructor and has always offered to teach her if she wanted). She won't go to any evening events as the buses stop at 9pm, and she'd hate to feel obliged to anyone for a lift. I offer to pick her up at whatever time of night (she only lives half a mile away), but she won't even accept that.

I have adult friends who don't drive, I have never even asked if they have chosen to or have medical reasons - it's not my business - if they leave in my direction I am always happy to give them lifts.

People are v judgeypants about "having" to learn to drive - since DD1 turned 17 people kept asking when she was going to learn, as she has epilepsy she had to be seizure free for a full year to get her provisional. If you have never seen her have a fit you wouldn't know she couldn't drive for medical reasons.

SugarPlumMary -I got my first car 4 years after passing my test - and I was very nervous, but it's amazing how it comes back to you. Bit like riding a bike.

I'm also so old I never had to do the written test.

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 27-Dec-12 16:23:17

Another happy non-driver here. I have always lived in greater London, and though my parents both drove, I have never owned a car. Technically I can drive. I have a valid driving licence. I haven't been behind the wheel for 25 years, do you really want me out on the roads? I stopped doing it because I was terrible at it; have a problem telling my left from my right and not great at judging distances, as well as being scared to death of every other vehicle.

So I decided a couple of decades ago that I didn't want or need a car and therefore would always live places with decent public transport. I don't feel deprived and I'm certainly not a burden on others: I have quite a lot of car-free friends and on the few occasions we go to a Morris weekend that's in the sticks, the drivers in the team are happy to transport a few non-drivers for a share of petrol money on a long-ish journey - or, quite often, it's feasible for the non-drivers to get a train and a cab to the location anyway.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:23:23

I'm not too clever on a bike either. I have no life skills sad

Oh dear - I've just realised this is a bunfighty thread. I didn't notice it stretched to 12 pages blush

<backs away>

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:28:00

Possibly usual

After all, some driving- swimmer man would come along and save the day if you fell into a river due to walking everywhere.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 16:28:49

Are you any good with a hoop and stick, usual?

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:29:02

How have you made it this far usual ... <snigger>

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 16:29:07

That good to hear SabrinaMulhollandJjones.

I think the sheer number of years between my non written test - just practical test for me too - and time I finally do need to drive may be more of an issue but you never know it might prove easier than I think smile.

I can see a point in our lives when driving will be necessary and not a luxury. It depends as we hope to be moving on another 12 months should be city location but transport may still be an issue especially as the DC get older.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:29:44

Or spinning top maybe Line?

MyLittleAprilSunshine Thu 27-Dec-12 16:30:26

I can't drive due to well illness I feel very awkward saying as I don't feel ill or anything, but I can't see well enough to drive (infact the sight is damn awful).

However my Mum can't drive but I honestly think it's a good thing. She'd be waaay too nervous on the roads and I think being able to admit you wouldn't make a good driver and making the sensible decison not to drive is a great thing!

whistlestopcafe Thu 27-Dec-12 16:32:29

After saying that I'm laid back and not bothered about missing things I'm now starting to think that I'm not so laid back as this thread has reminded me of a couple of incidents of car driver selfishness.

A few years ago when I only had one child we had agreed to take the children ice-skating. Ds and I caught two buses and had a journey of 90 minutes to travel 5 miles to get there (in a car it takes less than 10 minutes). When we arrived my friends said the ice rink was full of "chavs" and they wanted to go home to a local venue. They didn't get why I was annoyed and wanted to stay.

Incident two - When ds2 was 6 weeks old we were all going to catch the train to Brighton, it was a 2 hour journey although there was only one change and it was a summer special so wasn't hideously expensive. They then decided that they would not catch the train and would drive instead because the train was going to be a faff and take too long. So now I was expected to take the train and be a Billy no mates and cope with a newborn baby and a small child on my own. When everyone was going the train journey seemed like a good idea but on my own it wasn't very appealing. I decided not to go but of course it is another example of me not bothering to make an effort.

superstarheartbreaker Thu 27-Dec-12 16:32:32

I recently passed my test at the grand old age of 24 and wrote a car off in a week grin. It was only a minor accident and noone was hurt but the airbag popped out and as an airbag is about £1, 500 then it wasn't worth repairing it. Have a lovely VW polo. When anyone says to me; oh you must lov ethe freedom I say I don't feel any freer and certainly more scared and skint. I DO think that the prevailing car culture is far too unchallenged. We need to think of our impact on teh plant and I feel that car culture is NO 1 offender when it comes to environmental destruction and/or oil wars etc. What is wrong with public transport and why on earth are non-drivers made to feel bad? I am glad to have passed but I am hoping to move to London and one reason for doing so is better transport. Shall take car with but only use to travel out of London on day trips etc.

superstarheartbreaker Thu 27-Dec-12 16:32:51

grand old age of 34 I meant!

Floggingmolly Thu 27-Dec-12 16:33:13

Some people who don't drive use public transport, you know. If you're being plagued by someone looking for constant ferrying about, it says more about her personality than the incidental fact that she doesn't drive.
What a generalisation hmm

elah11 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:33:30

Its funny how many non drivers are so defensive about the subject, I think deep down they know the op has a valid point but don't want to admit it. I was a very nervous learner and I still don't like driving but I realise it's a necessary skill so i do it. I used to have to drag the kids out and walk miles when I couldn't drive which is no problem when the weather is dry but it's selfish and unfair when it's lashing rain and miserable. I know people always say the kids don't mind but they have no choice! I am sure the poor sods would much rather sit in a warm dry car then trudge along in the rain and wind, anyone who protests otherwise is deluded.

feelingdizzy Thu 27-Dec-12 16:35:20

I didn't learn to drive till I was 30 (took 5 tests)managed just fine and was a lot slimmer! had 2 kids by then and had to pass my test to get a job I really wanted/needed to get.

I have to drive now for work and live in a very rural isolated spot,but I still don't like it,its a chore to me.I would happily never drive again if I had alternative transport.To be honest don't understand people who do drive in cities.I know many people who live and work in cities who drive into work car remains there 8 hours and they return home again and they could do this on public transport.Why would you drive if you didn't have to?

Many people seen obsessed with their cars and the very act of driving it fascinates me.Many people fantasise sabout moving to the country when they retire I am going the other way and live in a city and never drive again.Brillant.

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:36:35

My poor children walked to school in the wind and rain, poor sods sad

DameMargotFountain Thu 27-Dec-12 16:36:57

elah

i think the defensiveness comes from the fact the OP has called us a nuisance and PITA

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:38:58

Do you make your poor children walk in the rain and wind, Dame?

WorraLorraTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 16:40:28

elah dont' be so ridiculous.

Deep down a lot of us think the OP is being entirely unreasonable and tarring a massive group of people with the same brush.

What is selfish and unfair imo is to raise children who think rain and bad weather, is a reason to stay home...or a reason to be driven everywhere.

I would consider myself deluded and selfish, if I packed them into a car every time the UK whether didn't suit them.

And while we're making wild assumptions, if you don't like driving I'm willing to bet you're not very good at it either. Not everyone is naturally good at driving and those are the selfish lot who should stay off the roads and stop convincing their children they'll dissolve in the rain.

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 16:40:32

I'm defensive because I've had people whittering in my ear about driving for years despite the fact that I say I find driving painful due to my condition. However, the irritants and their petrol guzzling machines don't seem to realise that I don't want their opinions!

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:41:13

I drive.

It is NOT a "necessary" skill if you can get public transport or manage without it.

I drive to work because its an inaccessible by bus.

And plenty of children walked to school for miles and didn't dissolve in the rain when I was at school. And still do.

I totally get why plenty of people don't drive even if they have no medical issues or money issues.

I would prefer not to have to drive to work when I am fighting with traffic and inconsiderate drivers.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 16:41:33

Oh goody, are we all going to get what we prefer all the time now?

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 16:42:05

i admit that some aspects of my life might be easier if i did drive- I would save time and it would be convenient if i had my own car. But then again, some aspects of my life would be easier if I was a foot taller or had bigger norks or if I was married to johnny Depp. I don't need those things, just the same as I don't need to drive.

DameMargotFountain Thu 27-Dec-12 16:42:28

i do

i'm a right cunt PITA though

but someone kindly invented coats and shoes, so we're not all that badly off

mostly i stand in the street, crying, until someone i know drives past and is guilted into giving me a lift, it's only right you know <entitles self out of thread. again>

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 16:42:37

(Not you Salmo)

(Poor timing) grin

usualsuspect3 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:43:07

My childrens secondary school was a good half hour walk away, TBH if I could drive I wouldn't have driven them every day.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 16:43:34

(kids preferring cars to walking in bad weather)

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 16:44:41

I think the cagoule was a fine invention.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:45:32

grin Line - children mustn't ever get wet.

mumofthemonsters808 Thu 27-Dec-12 16:45:38

I'm a non driver and have never asked anyone to drive me anywhere, I walk,use public transport and in an emergency take a taxi.I actually enjoy walking,driving is not for everyone.

Northernlebkuchen Thu 27-Dec-12 16:46:00

I passed my test a year and a half ago aged 34. I love driving now and wouldn't be without it but it's not an essential. YABU to be so grumpy.

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 16:46:06

I'm wondering if I have defective 'poor little ones' - as they often insist on dragging poor me out to parks or country walks in such weather.

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 16:47:06

The cagoule was a mighty fine invention and our children won't wear them today because of all the car-drivers driving their children around. Kids today don't realise that when it rains you get wet because they have spent their entire lives as passengers, watching the weather from inside a car.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:48:01

Oh I had a hideous lovely turquoise cagoule when I were nobbut a little bairny.

insancerre Thu 27-Dec-12 16:48:33

won't someone think of the chiiiiildren?
<<wails>>

ComposHat Thu 27-Dec-12 16:48:47

Yes Molly I suspect it does. I think the worst lift cadgers are women of a certain age who have never learned to drive but are used to the convenience of a spouse running them about. When they are divorced/widowed they expect all and sundry to fill the void. My MIL is very much of this ilk, I feign ignorance to her broad hints and watch her silently fume.

I get annoyed by the self centredness of her behaviour, she also expects people to come and perform DIY, sort out her computer at the drop of a hat, rather than the fact she can't drive per se.

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:49:28

But the water used to gather in dips and folds then pour out over my trousers in finest comedy tradition.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 16:49:58

I had a bright red cagoule and I wore it till I was 18, when I was allowed my own umbrella.

SneezySnatcher Thu 27-Dec-12 16:50:06

I don't mind people not driving.

I do mind people like my friend (lovely in all other respects) who asks me if I fancy shopping in a nearby town/cinema etc and then if I say 'yes' says 'Great! Will you drive then?' angry

Sometimes if she's made plans with another of our friends and invites me tooI wonder if she actually wants me to come or if it's easier than getting the train/bus!

Salmotrutta Thu 27-Dec-12 16:50:27

I coveted my friends umbrella.

acsec Thu 27-Dec-12 16:52:43

I don't drive and I never expect anyone to go out of their way for me. I walk or catch public transport. I will learn to drive, but not until I can afford to run a car.

everlong Thu 27-Dec-12 16:54:07

Some people find driving a no no. They are too scared ( I used to be ) to drive, they can't afford a car or to run one. It's not always simple.

I don't mind visiting friends/picking or dropping those who can't drive. It's not the end of my world.

However I would rather chop my little toe off than not be able to drive.

DizzyHoneyBee Thu 27-Dec-12 16:55:27

it's ok to choose not to drive but then to ask for weekly lifts to places that your neighbour is not going to anyway is what I find annoying.

digerd Thu 27-Dec-12 16:57:26

We all walked to school and back in the 50s and 60s, our children did too.
I had 55 driving lessons years later and after each I was exhausted as so tense. Wouldn't overtake anything, and remember once stopping in a 4 lane at traffic lights, saw on the otherside there were only 3 lanes with a bus in one, and was terrified. Instructor took over the controls while I shut my eyes expecting to be squashed in the middle. Decided it was a danger to my and everyone elses health and gave it up.
My 83 year-old neighbour drives like sterling moss, but has excellent eyesight and reactions . Has never offered a lift to me in 15 years, and I have never asked.

MotherOfTheBritishEmpire Thu 27-Dec-12 16:59:45

always be the designated driver who can't have a drink while the non driver happily slurps a third glass of wine etc etc etc

If you want to drink, take public transport or share a cab like the non-drivers do.

Why should arrangements be made to siot drivers? make arrangements close to public transport!

Either offer a lift with good grace or don't. Your general attitude is V passive aggressive.

(I am a driver)

nailak Thu 27-Dec-12 17:00:04

" I used to have to drag the kids out and walk miles when I couldn't drive which is no problem when the weather is dry but it's selfish and unfair when it's lashing rain and miserable"

why did you have to this? are there no mini cans in your area?

I dont drive, so if my friends are meeting up somewhere that takes ages on bus but is 10 mins by car, or somewhere obscure then i just get a cab. it is still cheaper then running a car. same as if i go out with friends or to families houses i take a cab there and back, if they offer a lift i accept, but i dont expect it.

i dont drive coz i never learnt, once my youngest is in nursery then i will have a few free hours to learn.

however my mum never drove, we did every thing by public transport.

I don't drive, sometimes I want to, others I don't. I love public transport. Me and dh get everywhere we need to go using PT. We never ask for lifts, if people offer we take it, but we never guilt or impose. It's our choice not to drive, even with ds we find PT absolutely fine

clitterclatter Thu 27-Dec-12 17:08:29

I'm surprised at the number of people on here who are convinced their decision not to drive doesn't impact on other people. Of course it does. As for saying 'take a cab if you want a drink', that's fine if you're going out with a group of friends but I took it that the OP had to ferry family (including elderly relatives) around over Christmas meaning they always had to be the one to not have wine while the sibling drank away.

Look, you can always take individual examples and nit pick at them, but if you look at the broader picture it is inconvenient for someone if a family member who lives nearby doesn't drive and this always has to be factored in when planning a family outing or arranging transport for an elderly parent. I think that's what the OP is saying and I agree with her.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 17:09:07

<serious note coming up> Actually I've just taken issue with DS's school for not accommodating pupils who do have to walk to school in bad weather. They are expected to carry round soaking wet raincoats all day with nowhere to hang them.

There's nowhere even to sit and change boots for shoes. And as they are not allowed to enter the school wearing boots, they're effectively not allowed to wear boots to walk to school in bad weather.

Yet it celebrates 'healthy schools' and 'walk to school week' and has a School Travel Plan which encourages walking.

But let's face it, the school assumes they all sit in cars to get from A to B.

MotherOfTheBritishEmpire Thu 27-Dec-12 17:11:34

Oh, the martyrdom of sipping 7Up - suggest that on one day you offer a lift to the elderly relative and the next day you will drink and the non-driving relative fund a cab!

It is possible to be calmly upfront, rather than whinging about people behind their backs hmm. Such a festive spirit hmm

SugarplumMary Thu 27-Dec-12 17:16:27

LineRunner I think that a very good point. My DC school a primary isn't to bad as they can change shoes and hang coats up.

I used to have to get the bus to Secondary school - no shelter we got soaked very freqeuntly then as there were no lockers has to carry wet stuff round all day - coats and umbrellas used to drip onto class room carpets. It was grim.

nailak Thu 27-Dec-12 17:17:45

linerunner what happens if you just send them in boots? and cant they just quietly find somewhere hidden to leave coats? medical room changing room, music rooms etc?

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 17:19:14

ClitterClatter then drivers should say, "I'm sorry, I will not be taking the car to that event, I'm sure we could share a taxi" or whatever.
There is nothing worse as a non-driver than to have a PA driver bang on all night about having to drink soft drinks while everyone else gets drunk. You have a choice, drink or drive. Plain and simple. Don't offer people lifts and then be pissy with them all night!
If I (a non-driver) cannot afford my taxi fare home after a night out, I then will not go out, or I will stay at a friend's house, where 3 friend's live, so we can all share the taxi fare and then I will get a bus home from there the next day. It's pretty straight forward to be honest.

clitterclatter Thu 27-Dec-12 17:20:32

Eh, isn't 'whingng about people behind their back' what AIBU is all about Mother. Wny log on if you're just going to 'whinge' and make moany faces about it? confused

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 17:22:11

I'm surprised at the number of people on here who are convinced their decision not to drive doesn't impact on other people. Of course it does. As for saying 'take a cab if you want a drink', that's fine if you're going out with a group of friends but I took it that the OP had to ferry family (including elderly relatives) around over Christmas meaning they always had to be the one to not have wine while the sibling drank away.

Is drinking really such a big deal for some people? A car is a huge expense, why should a person be forced to drive to ferry around elderly relatives?

clitterclatter Thu 27-Dec-12 17:22:17

But Tuppence some people are too polite and considerate to say that. And I don't think they usually 'bang on all night' about it - most of them act as if they don't mind (and post annonymously on forums to vent).

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 17:24:26

Look, you can always take individual examples and nit pick at them, but if you look at the broader picture it is inconvenient for someone if a family member who lives nearby doesn't drive and this always has to be factored in when planning a family outing or arranging transport for an elderly parent. I think that's what the OP is saying and I agree with her.

This annoys me, as all of my friends and family know I do not drive, and will never ask for a lift anywhere, even if they drive past my house to get wherever we are going. I will leave early to get the bus, and generally get there early as buses rarely get me there for the exact time I'm meeting my friends or whoever.
I will never ask people to change plans to suit me travelling there by public transport, I factor travel costs into plans, the same way a driver factors in petrol money, it's not difficult. The only people who seem to be bothered that I do not drive, are drivers, apparently! hmm

iwillsleepagainsomeday Thu 27-Dec-12 17:24:33

I don't get why "being able to drive" = "owning/running a car"?

I can drive since I was 18 but never owned a "personal car". When I lived at home I used my parents' one and with DH when we lived overseas I used our family car. I never used it for work/commuting as I used always public transport. We do not have a car at the moment as we currently live in London. This summer we rented a car for a week to have our "rural" holidays.

I think however driving is an essential skill in this time and society. Just as using a computer /internet is nowadays. Sure, you can live without it, but that means your are limiting yourself.

fatlazymummy Thu 27-Dec-12 17:26:20

clitterclatter no it doesn't impact on other people. You probably feel it does, because you probably rely on your car therefore you feel that a car is essential. It isn't.
There is nothing I need a car for. I never have lifts. I walk, use public transport or take a cab, and so do my children. I don't have any elderly relatives.

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 17:29:19

What fatlazy said. Neither dh or I drive. We live in a semi-rural location and manage perfectly well. We don't expect lifts, we don't need a car, dh works ft and we are never late.

Yabu

WildWorld2004 Thu 27-Dec-12 17:29:54

Just think if every adult who is able to drive did drive would that be more of an inconvience because there would be more cars on the road and less places to park.

Oh god just think how worse the parking threads on here would be.

digerd Thu 27-Dec-12 17:30:46

I go by taxi now that I'm retired. Go by bus in the summer dry weather . Have food delivered to the door.
But in my area the taxi firms do school runs during term time, and none is available until after 9am, which is usually fine for me.
My daughter drives me to relatives Xmas lunch as she is invited too. But am still terrified on the motorways especially in the dark when it's raining as it was coming back last evening.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 17:30:48

ClitterClatter I know drivers who have made little comments and digs on a night out about how "it must be nice to have drinks and not worry about driving" or the fact that they have offered people lifts home, but then complain that it's no fun not drinking around drunk people... Which is fine, I get that. I don't always drink when I go out, but I still get a taxi home at the end of the night, drunk or not.

I do not see the point in offering people lifts and then complaining about it. I never ask for lifts, but on the rare occasion I accept the offer of a lift, I do not expect to have it then complained about. Don't offer non-drivers lifts if you don't actually want to give them a lift... That's about as complicated as it gets surely. If you feel obliged or guilty or whatever, that is your issue, not the person accepting your offer!

Not going to dredge through 4 pages but YABU. Not all non drivers are selfish and entitled. I don't drive and I make my own travel arrangements either by walking/bus/ taxi. As I don't have the costs of running a car I don't mind paying for taxis now and then.

I do know non drivers like you describe though - the thing is they can only act like this if they are allowed to! Stop letting people take the piss.

I don't think your issue is a driving thing such much as a selfish people thing.

BoneyBackJefferson Thu 27-Dec-12 17:33:16

CreamOfTomatoSoup
"They also use driving as an excuse for not having a drink when actually they're really uptight and could easily have gotten the train, left the car at home and had a bit of fun.*

That is as ignorant as the op's generalisation.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 17:33:23

What both fatlazymummy and SantasWearingHisTrampyPants

The people who are usually late when meeting them are people who can't find a parking space or left a bit later as they didn't realise the traffic would be bad. It is rarely people travelling by public transport IME

MysteriousHamster Thu 27-Dec-12 17:35:16

There is an arrogance here in people who found it easy to drive, or easy to afford to learn, assuming it is the same for others.

I had lessons when I was 17 but struggled both with the lessons and financially until I gave up while doing my A levels. I went to uni in London where I didn't need to drive. After uni, my husband couldn't drive either and when we finally had some money we decided to learn one at a time and he went first. I passed last year at 32 after six months of lessons.

I'm on the side of the non-drivers on this thread. People don't drive for all sorts of reasons. Rarely is it because they can't be bothered. Most people know it's a hassle to give lifts and appreciate getting them, it's only people who are selfish generally who don't care.

When I was on maternity leave I felt terrible asking for lifts and it was in part what prompted me to learn. But I don't feel others should have to do the same. I mostly learnt in case I ever need to get my son to hospital and so I will be able to do the long drives to my parents as they get older - but everyone's circumstances and transport links are different.

Tbh I'm not a particularly confident driver - my actual driving is fine and seems confident on the surface - but I don't enjoy it unless there's sunshine and quiet roads. I hate the fact some would push under-confident drivers on to the road because it's 'an essential life-skill' in their view. It's a skill, which can come in handy, but you can still do without if necessary.

Not sure what my point is exactly, but I've typed this out now so you're getting it!

jessjessjess Thu 27-Dec-12 17:39:40

I don't drive. Or expect lifts. I have absolutely no sympathy for people who drive and then moan about it.

ihearsounds Thu 27-Dec-12 17:39:59

I stopped driving about 17 years ago. This was after I was assaulted over a parking space, and had panic attacks after that getting into the driving seat.
None of my children have melted from getting wet. They have still managed to get to school nursery and college. I manage to get to work.
I am not a drain on other drivers, ever. I walk, take the bus and taxi.
Old people getting to hospital appointments, well they have always managed in the past to get there. Even in areas where buses run once an hour, still get to appointments. Remember my nan going, no-one in the family drove, but in hindsight suppose the self people should have learned lol.

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 17:41:33

On the walking to school in bad weather issue - DS's school is is a biggish state secondary(c 1300 pupils) and they say they have no space for changing or storage. Coats should be 'hung on chairs' and school shoes should be black and 'robust enough to be waterproof'.

I think they are in cloud cuckoo Clarkson land.

DH doesn't drive. He just doesn't want to. He does have a provisional driving licence, but that's only because he wanted some ID.

If he wants to go somewhere he'll walk, or get the bus or train. No problem.

Mollydoggerson Thu 27-Dec-12 17:43:21

My MIL doesn't drive and it adds to her general unavailability. MIL will claim to be available to babysit etc, but the non-driving element makes her unavailable. It means step FIL would have to drive her here, possibly stay or else go away and then collect her or else dh would go and collect her and bring her back and then organise transport home. It just makes the simple act of babysitting quite complicated. Fine I know she doesn't have to do it, but she tentatively offers occassionally (maybe once a year), but it's hardly worth the hassle.

I suppose drivers tend to be more available to help out than non-drivers, but obviously the personalities of all involved have a huge impact on arrangements.

InNeedOfBrandyButter Thu 27-Dec-12 17:45:23

My primary aged dc have a cloak room where they can put their wellys and macs. Once they take them off they are probably dryer then a dc who was drove to school since everyone drives on rainy days and people have to park 2/3 streets away. In fact they have to park on my road then walk sometimes and they don't have wellys macs and umbrellas like my dc to keep them dry.

outtolunchagain Thu 27-Dec-12 18:09:08

Amazed at all these people talking about taxis etc . We live in a rural area and you can't get taxis at the weekend for love nor money , they need at least 24 hours notice , often a lot more

nailak Thu 27-Dec-12 18:16:15

well if you choose somewhere to live in which there is no public transport when you dont drive, it is a bit weird?

however it does look like a great business opportunity! get a pco license and advertise as a cab driver!

nailak Thu 27-Dec-12 18:19:37

"I suppose drivers tend to be more available to help out than non-drivers, but obviously the personalities of all involved have a huge impact on arrangements"

i am free to babysit at my house with my kids. I find it hard to arrange babysitters for my kids though as I have to go and drop them at others houses and isnt worth the effort imo

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 18:24:27

Outtolunch, that's a bummer. We live rurally there are taxi all over the nearest town and its only £6.70, cheaper than driving/parking. And I wouldn't live somewhere I couldn't get around without driving. Its no loss. After all, if you have 5 dc you wouldn't move to a 2 bed house, would you? It wouldn't be suitable. A house with no pt links wouldn't be suitable for us.

dementedma Thu 27-Dec-12 18:27:45

My dds don't drive because we can't afford lessons, insurance or another car.I wish we bloody could then wouldn't have to go out again late tonight to pick them up from the Park and Ride.

spoonsspoonsspoons Thu 27-Dec-12 18:28:48

YABU

Do you know how damaging these comments can be to those who cannot drive for medical reasons? I know you excepted them in your OP but it doesn't stop people with epilepsy feeling crap because they're not able to do things others take for granted. It doesn't stop people making comments like "real men can drive" because they don't know the medical history of your OH. It doesn't stop him feeling less guilty because I'm the one driving 7 hours to see his parents.

As a non-driver, I get really annoyed at colleagues who INSIST I have a lift home and no amount of me saying “no thanks, I’m fine” gets through to them.

How do I politely say that I do not want to....
- sit in your pine scented car
- listen to your taste of music,
- be the person that has to jump out and post the letters
- be covered with dog, cat, human hairs
- have my feet battered by empty cans & bottles
- wait whilst you just nip for petrol, the kids, the weekly shop
- listen to all your woes

I am tired, I want to go home, on the bus, where I can listen to my music or read my kindle in peace.

Thankyou.

EllenParsons Thu 27-Dec-12 18:33:00

YABU.

I don't have a driving licence. I live in London in quite a central area in zone 2 which has great public transport that I use to get around. There's no way I would drive where I live. It just would not make sense. I never need to get lifts from people as I can always easily get wherever I need by public transport or if not then I get a cab. The fact I don't drive does not put anyone else out and I hardly know anyone with a car. Before I lived in London I lived in another large European city where I had no need for a car either. That said, I have actually learned to drive but haven't taken my test yet. I do see the benefit of being able to drive for things like renting a car and going out to the country, but the fact I still haven't done my test really does not impact anyone else or make me a PITA confused

mummyonvalium Thu 27-Dec-12 18:36:41

People who don't drive don't bother me so long as they don't insult my driving whilst I am giving them a lift (one girl did and she has never been offered a lift again).

mummyonvalium Thu 27-Dec-12 18:38:51

Tess - this used to annoy me too when I didn't drive (only 4 years ago). No-one actually understood that I was actually capable of getting on a bus.

MamaChocoholic Thu 27-Dec-12 18:40:43

YABU.

I didn't learn to drive living in London, pre-kids, because I could cycle anywhere I needed to go. I did learn once we left London, so can drive according to my license (passed with two minors), but I don't enjoy it, don't feel confident at it, and have never driven on a motorway. You'd consider me technically minded in other ways, but I don't have the concentration to be a safe driver at anything over 30 mph for 20 minutes max.

Not everyone can be a good driver, those of us who recognise this are keeping the roads safer for everyone else. Plus I hate cars, would still much rather cycle, even with a trailer full of kids in tow!

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 18:41:25

Why would you choose to live in a rural area without good public transport links/easily available taxi services if you can't drive?

fatlazymummy Thu 27-Dec-12 18:43:26

mummyonvalium or that it is possible to, gasp, walk more than a few yards without collapsing.

BRANdishingMistletoe Thu 27-Dec-12 18:45:26

H refuses to learn to drive and it is a total nuisance, I wouldn't extrapolate that to include the entire non-driving adult population though.

What is especially annoying is that H will not accept that him refusing to drive affects me in any way, he thinks it's totally fine. In fact he called me a bully for reminding him that he promised to learn. He is an arse, hopefully soon to be a single arse. (God, I can't wait for Christmas to be over.)

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 27-Dec-12 18:47:54

I think that the selfish ones are people who live in a city with good public transport and insist on owning cars and driving everywhere (I will exempt those with mobility issues/several under-5s/a need to carry a lot of heavy items regularly). The car-obsessed city dwellers are the ones poisoning the air, clogging up the streets, making it unsafe for DC to play outside and it's actually mainly the fault of city-dwelling car owners who pave over their front gardens for parking spaces, that so many people are being flooded out at the moment.

ArthurPewty Thu 27-Dec-12 18:49:10

I have an american driving licence, since I was 17. I am 36. moved here in 2000, didn't take any lessons until 2 years ago, then started having 'episodes' so I quit trying to get my UK licence, since will likely have to give it up, its just wasted effort and money.

sometimes think my husband is resentful but if they really are seizures, I can't drive...

ArthurPewty Thu 27-Dec-12 18:56:36

oh and I walk 5-6 miles per day doing the school run, in all weather, and I never ask for a lift froma anyone, ever. occasionally I may get the bus, but as a day saver is now £4, its ouchy.

CountBapula Thu 27-Dec-12 19:01:00

Not everyone can be a good driver, those of us who recognise this are keeping the roads safer for everyone else.

YY. I'm a bloody awful driver. Failed my test despite the efforts of five different instructors. I genuinely don't think I'd be safe on the roads - I have no road sense, and appalling spatial awareness. Plus it petrifies me.

Some people just can't do it, just like some people can't sing, or ice skate, or paint.

BlingLoving Thu 27-Dec-12 19:04:54

Yabu to have a problem with all non drivers. YANBU to be annoyed with entitled non drivers who are happy to ask for lifts etc.

MmeGuillotine Thu 27-Dec-12 19:18:40

I really wish that I could drive but I have dyspraxia so dare not risk it. I'm always apologising to my husband because he has to do all the driving but he claims not to mind. It'd be nice to have the freedom of being able to drive myself though - I'd go on mad day trips all over the country if I could instead of having to harangue him into taking me to random stately homes etc.

However, we live in a large city and I like walking or using public transport or taxis although the DC's school is a few minutes walk from our house and we have two large supermarkets within walking distance as well so it's not really necessary. I actually go to some pains to avoid getting lifts from people as I also have Aspergers and lifts tend to involve awkward small talk, which is generally pretty hideous when I'm involved. None of our family live locally and none of my friends in this city drive either, mostly for environmental reasons as far as I can make out. I'd still quite like to have a driving license though but I'm not even sure that I'd be allowed one. sad

ElsieMc Thu 27-Dec-12 19:29:53

God yes, it drives me absolutely mad. My boss used to commandeer my car and because she was so absolutely vile, I just hated it. She had also just got rid of my parking permit to save money so that made it even worse.

My brother used to do it all the time. Asking me to pick him up from stations a three hour round trip away when I had very young children etc. If he wanted to visit, he would always expect me to collect him.

My late mum, who was very eccentric, not only expected me to always, always collect her but when she was selling her house she also expected her estate agent to collect her and take her to view any other houses she wished. She completely believed it was part of his role. It always made me laugh seeing his face with her sitting in the front with him!

Sunnywithachanceofjinglebells Thu 27-Dec-12 19:33:06

YABU. It's not a non-driver problem, it's a brother problem.

I don't drive. I'm crap at driving and have failed my test umpteen times. The roads are safer without me behind the wheel.

I don't need lifts - I use public transport or cabs.

FryOneFatChristmasTurkey Thu 27-Dec-12 19:33:21

Believe me, the roads are much safer because my mum doesn't drive. grin

But, she is always grateful if I'm able to drive her places, she never takes it for granted.

I am 51 and passed my driving test 10 weeks ago at the second attempt, after spending £3000 on 130+ hours of lessons over 16 months. The tests alone cost almost £200. We were lucky enough to be given a car, but it has still cost us nearly £1,500 to get it insured, taxed and MOT'd. The expense of getting mobile has been crippling. I am the only driver in the family. And I'm still shit scared every time I get behind the wheel.

We managed just fine in London for 25 years (without cadging lifts) using tube, buses and taxis and trains, even when DS was a toddler and I was a lone parent. I only bothered learning to drive because we have moved to the West Country where public transport is crap and we live with my very elderly mother who is losing her marbles mobility.

OP, YABVU.Running a car is a huge luxury for many people. The majority of my friends in London are not car owners. Some hired or used car-share schemes when necessary. Congestion charge and total absence of parking in the City/West End mean you cannot use a car for commuting into central London unless you're an insane petrol-head prepared to sit in traffic for 90 minutes each way when the tube only takes 25 minutes. When you have to spend £000s on an annual Oyster card just for work then keeping a car for use at weekends and holdays is ridiculous.

HollaAtMeSanta Thu 27-Dec-12 19:34:04

Can't believe the defensiveness of the non-drivers! grin Like swimming, cooking, and managing money, driving is a life skill - some people on this thread seem not to understand the difference between "life skill" and "survival skill". hmm

For the record, I live in central London. I don't have a car and walk/cycle/take public transport everywhere. Generally, I think people use cars far too much, particularly for short journeys.

But I can drive - I occasionally have to do it for my job, and if I need to go somewhere by car, I can rent one (I'm in a car club). It's something that allows me to be flexible when making arrangements with friends - drivers still have the option of not driving (e.g. if meeting in central London, or somewhere else where public transport is easier), but non-drivers don't have the option of driving if it suits them/the group better. Hence, things inevitably have to be arranged to suit them.

mrsjay Thu 27-Dec-12 19:37:22

I dont drive I was pretty rubbish at learning

i think your problem is you are a martyr you didnt have to drive anywhere or pick or drop anybody off did you, you chose too then moaned about it,

mum11970 Thu 27-Dec-12 19:41:20

Not half as annoying as being able to drive but not having my car for the last few weeks. Has been sending me nuts. Live in a semi rural location with only a couple of shops and a rubbish bus service (not that I'd get on a bus unless it was a dire emergency). If dh doesn't give my car back soon I think I may just flatten him, lol. Got to drive a couple of minutes ago but that was just to drop him at the golf club and dd to her mates.

HoneyMurcott Thu 27-Dec-12 19:49:45

YANBU. I went out with two men who had never passed their test - one had failed and given up, the other had never tried, and it was inconvenient not being able to share the driving ever. Being non drivers, they didn't really get this. One of them suggested me driving us to Scotland for a holiday. I don't think he realized that one person doing ALL the driving on a 20 hour plus round trip while he read/ enjoyed the scenery was unfair and exhausting for the driver. To me, being able to drive is part of being an adult. I understand that cost of lessons might be a deterrent to learning. I learned at 23 because I couldn't afford lessons while a student but not being able to drive effectively barred me from the jobs I wanted to do. So YANBU.

LadyWidmerpool Thu 27-Dec-12 19:50:12

YAB a bit ridiculous. If you don't want to give lifts don't offer them.

KatyPeril Thu 27-Dec-12 19:55:34

I'd be more than happy to learn to drive if you're willing to pay OP? I certainly can't afford it!

ChaoticforlifenotjustChristmas Thu 27-Dec-12 19:56:42

shoving a stick with a knob on up and down.

Haven't read all posts yet but had to post for this gringrin

So glad I'd just swallowed my mouthful of drink, it would have been a waste of southern comfort to have spat it out over my keyboard having read that grin

kickassmomma Thu 27-Dec-12 19:59:00

I cant drive, can't afford to learn or to own a car !!! if I ever find you I will b even more of a nuisance and stand in the middle of the road so you can't passgrin

pourmeanotherglass Thu 27-Dec-12 20:03:12

The roads are safer without me,

I eventually passed my test at the 5th attempt - and then moved to a larger city where I'm too nervous to drive everywhere. I drive once a week or so on routes I know well (supermarket etc), but am a bit dependent on /dh for other routes.

I'm happy cycling to work, the kids school is a minute walk away, they do local activities.

If I lived in a smaller town I'd be happy to drive, but not here.

pourmeanotherglass Thu 27-Dec-12 20:03:30

The roads are safer without me,

I eventually passed my test at the 5th attempt - and then moved to a larger city where I'm too nervous to drive everywhere. I drive once a week or so on routes I know well (supermarket etc), but am a bit dependent on /dh for other routes.

I'm happy cycling to work, the kids school is a minute walk away, they do local activities.

If I lived in a smaller town I'd be happy to drive, but not here.

fuckadoodlepoopoo Thu 27-Dec-12 20:05:17

The only time this really bothers me (as the driver) is Christmas day, when i have to spend 2 hours of it picking people up and taking them home again because there is no public transport. So its either that or the relatives in question have to spend it alone and i don't get to see them.

fatlazymummy Thu 27-Dec-12 20:07:09

I do think the financial side is a deciding factor for many people. If money was no object then I probably would learn to drive , [either that or hire my own chauffeur]. It just wouldn't be worth the money when I manage perfectly well without it ,without inconveniencing other people op. Plus I don't know how good or safe I would be at it anyway.

happyhorse Thu 27-Dec-12 20:07:51

YANBU. When a non-driver puts you on the spot asking for a lift it's not easy to say no without coming across as a bit harsh/unreasonable.

Most of the non-drivers I know expect people to go out of their way for them. You'll get to the end of the evening and find that they've done sod all about making arrangements to get home. The only one I would be happy to give a lift to regularly is a friend who can't drive for the moment due to her epilepsy, but she always gets her transport sorted in advance. If only all non-drivers were like her.

fatlazymummy Thu 27-Dec-12 20:09:21

Plus I avoid the countryside. I never stray too far from public transport, nor would ever want to.

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 20:10:01

Driving is absolutely not a life skill, it may be useful but its hardly essential and not driving doesn't make you any less of an adult. I am v resourceful and not driving has never held me back from doing anything. I don't rely on anyone.

pigletmania Thu 27-Dec-12 20:12:02

My goodness have a biscuit op. actually I gets taxs and buses or walk to where I want to go, I don't demand or expect

pigletmania Thu 27-Dec-12 20:13:14

I get my transport srted out in advance

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 20:14:52

Me too piglet. Some fab generalisations being made.

pigletmania Thu 27-Dec-12 20:14:54

Even if I had a licence we could only afford one car. Dh needs his fr wrk so that would be me all day withou a car

pigletmania Thu 27-Dec-12 20:17:40

I know, all non car driver are freeloading spongers hmm. I have failed numerous tests ad I can't afford and have no motivation at the moment to learn again. In the future once ds 11 months is at school and my nights are free agin. But at th moment I am happy to use alternative modes of transport

judefawley Thu 27-Dec-12 20:18:39

Am I unusual in that out of every adult I know, there is only one (colleague, 55) who doesn't drive?

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 20:26:28

I also think there are already far too many drivers on the roads. Too many multi-car houses. Too many people reliant on their cars. Too many cars blocking the roads.

I think I'm actually being responsible in not driving

ethelb Thu 27-Dec-12 20:28:11

I passed my test a few months ago but still dont understand the attitude of some drivers who do matyrish lifts. I have accepted lifts under duress when unable to drive only to have them complain about having to give me a lift

Did i apologise for not driving? No. They needed to learn to get over their martyr complex just like you do op.

ChaoticforlifenotjustChristmas Thu 27-Dec-12 20:30:19

I don't drive, I can't afford to drive. It's probably a good job that I can't afford to drive as I'm a lazy bitch who is already overweight. I don't expect people to give me lifts.

Your problem OP is not that your sibling cannot drive but that your sibling is entitled, plus the fact you have a martyr complex wrt elderly relatives and lifts.

hth but probably won't

zeeboo Thu 27-Dec-12 20:31:12

So the OP is going to pay for me to learn to drive? No? Thought not.

Stop being such a bloody selfish arsehole. I would love to drive but became a single parent very young and since then have never had the spare cash even now I'm married.
I'm so glad that my friends and family aren't as mean spirited as you and would choose a tiny bit of inconvenience over not being able to spend time with me.

pigletmania Thu 27-Dec-12 20:31:50

I know Santa. Along my road, I car for mum 1for dad, 1fr each teenager. Silly silly silly

nailak Thu 27-Dec-12 21:04:36

"drivers still have the option of not driving (e.g. if meeting in central London, or somewhere else where public transport is easier), but non-drivers don't have the option of driving if it suits them/the group better. Hence, things inevitably have to be arranged to suit them."

I dont understand, non drivers have the choice of getting a cab, which can go anywhere any other car can go, so how can it inconvenience a group? if my friends are meeting somewhere hard to get to, i would get a cab. or tak public transport half way and cab rest of the way.

and do you really make financial decisions in your household based on the convenience of your friends?

funkybuddah Thu 27-Dec-12 21:13:37

I dont drive, I have no need to drive in 99% of my life, I never expect things to be rearranged for me, I manage to get to most places further out on public transport.

This obsession with driving is baffling to me (same as owning your own home) I live & work in the centre of town, its near to school, public transport etc. If I had a ar I would become lazy and atmosphere clogging , my children would expect to be taxi'd everwhere....not for me at the mo.

If people insist on lifts I take them but rarely ask, if I need help I pay petrol.(rare)

We didnt have a car from when I was about 8 so that might also have something to do with it.

Tuppence2 Thu 27-Dec-12 21:14:13

YY nailak
As a non-driver I would never expect plans to be changed to suit me. I get buses everywhere, if that's not possible I will either get a taxi, or a combination of both.
I would never take a huff or make comments about people who are driving who do not offer me a lift, just I don't expect those who offer lifts to take a huff or make comments to those who accept their offer!

StackOverflow Thu 27-Dec-12 21:17:17

I've been a city dweller all my life - always relied on public transport. I have a license but have never owned a car and have not driven for about ten years. Good luck to anybody sitting in the car if I were to try again!

I don't ask people for lifts. If I need to get somewhere and I can't use public transport I take a cab. It's expensive, but still much cheaper than running a car because it's rare.

I really don't see the issue. confused

FutTheShuckUp Thu 27-Dec-12 21:18:36

I can drive but cant swim.
Where does this put me in the useless stakes?

I can't fly a plane Fut

Pilots are sick of me sad

crashdoll Thu 27-Dec-12 21:27:14

For me, the conclusion is that you narked drivers need to find less entitled and selfish friends or you need to bring out the MN fave "no is a complete sentence".

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Thu 27-Dec-12 21:45:51

I think it's the car-owners who are defensive. Car ownership in cities is basically selfish and lazy: more walking would improve your health and more people using public transport and campaigning for better public transport would improve things for everyone.

StackOverflow Thu 27-Dec-12 21:48:00

^^ this!

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 22:06:08

Sgb, yes! There seems a total inability to see past the car. And a disbelief that anyone can be happy living differently.

CrazyChristmasLady Thu 27-Dec-12 22:09:53

YANBU.

Haven't read the thread but I find it bloody annoying having to accommodate non drivers and always be the one to do the running around. Just bloody drive.

uptheamp Thu 27-Dec-12 22:10:50

agree with the op to a certain extent - people do expect the car owners to do the majority of the running about, especially when people get older and need ferrying about more

i find it weird that people still rely on buses and trains when driving is so easy too

But why do you have to accommodate the non drivers? confused I'm a non driver and perfectly capable of getting from A to B without putting anyone else out. Wouldn't ask for or even expect a lift.

amillionyears Thu 27-Dec-12 22:21:34

How often are you giving lifts per week op?

Do these people ever do anything for you in return?

Glossynotflossy Thu 27-Dec-12 22:22:29

YBU another non driver here. I don't rely on people with cars as I am perfectly capable going from a to b by public transport.

Tigresswoods Thu 27-Dec-12 22:27:27

YANBU

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Thu 27-Dec-12 22:30:05

Some of you need new friends! Or just bloody say no!

LineRunner Thu 27-Dec-12 22:32:20

I had a nice chat on another thread with the OP, and she says it was a relative she's fond of actually who ideally would have shared some driving over Christmas, but couldn't because she hadn't learned to drive the car she has; and the OP couldn't have a little festive drink.

And I said if she's posted that in the first place everyone would have sympathised with her! grin

pourmeanotherglass Thu 27-Dec-12 23:02:10

uptheamp - just because you find driving easy, doesn't mean that everyone does. I was one of those kids that couldn't do school sport because I had poor co-ordination. I also have quite slow reactions.
I did eventually pass my driving test, but find driving in busy city centres difficult and very stressful. I'm happy to drive routes I know, but if I need to go to a meeting for work in an unfamiliar city, I would much rather take a train and a bus, where I can relax with a book, than attempt to drive, and get myself all worked up and stressed, and not be able to concentrate on the meeting because I'm worried about the drive home. I also take the kids on the train to my parents house. Why would I risk the lives of my precious girls by taking them on a motorway with me behind the wheel? We enjoy the train journey - we can chat, play cards, draw - much more sociable and relaxing than taking them in a car.
I'm not going to pretend that it isn't occasionally inconvenient not being able to drive-when it was just me I was happy to cycle/train/bus/walk everywhere, but sometimes when the girls were little it was a nuisance not being able to drive them places. Not so much of a problem now they are 8 and 10 - and they are probably capable of walking/cycling much further than DC who are driven everywhere, which isn't a bad thing. They will both be walking to secondary school.

Festivedidi Thu 27-Dec-12 23:03:20

My dp doesn't drive and it only annoys me sometimes like he can't take the kids to visit his parents without me. I didn't drive til I was 27 and got my first job that wasn't accessible by public transport (well, I could have used taxis but £40 per day wasn't economically viable).

As long as you are able to get where you need to go the majority of the time without asking for lifts then I don't see why anyone would want to own a car. I would love to get rid of our car as I would walk far more often, but I would need another job first as I can't get to work by public transport and I would be relying on others to give me lifts.

cinnamonnut Thu 27-Dec-12 23:22:00

uptheamp, driving isn't always that easy! Add the stress of road rage, trying to find a parking space, idiot drivers on the road and the huge costs and just getting a bus or train is more convenient.

I remember reading about a study that showed taking a bus is significantly less stressful than driving.

poorpaws Thu 27-Dec-12 23:54:23

I learned to drive later than most of my friends. I hate driving but have to do it. I now have two friends who don't drive but like to go out so I end up taking them both home (in completely different directions) and find whilst they are warm toasting their toes by the fire, I am still in my car trying to get home. New Years resolution ~ still take people out but not so often and make subtle suggestions that their dh/dp could take them home and save my bloody petrol.

PurpleTinsel Fri 28-Dec-12 00:07:28

Haven't read all the thread, but I think the OP is being a bit harsh on non-drivers here. Not all non-drivers constantly scrounge lifts.

I drive, because we have rubbish public transport where I live and it'd be very awkward to get around without a car, but if you live and work in a city with good public transport, having a car is often unneccessary most of the time.

And if someone can get just about anywhere they need to go on public transport, I don't think it's unreasonable for them to not learn to drive and buy a car, given how expensive that can be.

BombayBlue Fri 28-Dec-12 02:09:09

I have no problem with non-drivers... As long as they make provision for getting to where they want/need to be.

I choose to spend money on running a car.
A colleague chooses to spend her money on drinking, smoking etc. and a bus pass.

We live in the same town, but around 10 miles apart. I could drive through town (vs mway) to give her a lift, but would take over an hour longer and cost twice as much in fuel.

She always asks for a lift home.
It always puts me in an awkward position.

I've even thought about leaving my job as it does make me feel awful to say no, and even though I've said it takes twice as long and cost twice as much she still asks.

When I lived closer to her I didn't begrudge it, though for about 4 years I didn't know where she lived as I always dropped her at the pub. biscuit

InNeed 'I don't drive and I'm quite happy to take a bus, if anyone wants to see me then they have to drive to see me or pick me up then take me home. I dont want to drive either, the bus to work is annoying but fine and I spend £16 pw on travel, no petrol mot service tax and emergency repairs. I also get to drink and my brother/sister/mum/sdad/nan have to take me home or I stay over, if they were not willing to do this I still wouldn't drive I just wouldn't see them.'

This is the exact reason I never see my IL's thank fuck! They are using bastards who in a family of 6 only 1 drives. If they want to see my daughter they can make the effort to get a bus or pay for a frickin' taxi for once in their lives.

Why should I be the one to give lifts just because I have worked my entire life and spent my money on my car, tax, MOT, insurance etc? Scrounging bastards.

misterwife Fri 28-Dec-12 07:05:42

In London I've been able to get away with not driving for 10 years. I don't ask for lifts, because the public transport is so great.

Now, I am in a place where the public transport is non-existent. It is massively disempowering to be unable to drive in a place like this. I have co-ordinational issues which may make it dangerous for me to drive - sometimes one limb doesn't know what the other three are doing - but I've got to try to learn, and soon. My issues have improved a lot since I last considered it. It's pretty scary!

greenbananas Fri 28-Dec-12 07:20:58

I'm a non-driver, although my DH has just passed his test (at the age of 47). Until recently, we couldn't afford to run a car. Also, I have dyspraxia, which means it would be very difficult for me to learn to drive, and I'm not sure I would ever be safe behind the wheel. I had a couple of lessons when I was younger, and I was truly hopeless.

I loathe not being able to drive. Many people (including family) think I should just get a grip and learn. We are excluded from lots of social events and family gatherings through being dependent on lifts, and being picked up and dropped off by another adult driver always makes me feel like a teenager.

So OP, I think YABU and harsh on non-drivers.

Salbertina Fri 28-Dec-12 07:33:38

I think its an essential life skill, definitely
However, i agree that we're way too car-centric and that there are often better means to get around esp in big cities with decent public transport
I am also mildly dyspraxic but managed to pass in a manual.. Find automatic much easier to drive tho.

Eeeeeowwwfftz Fri 28-Dec-12 07:55:40

We both have a licence but have never owned a car. Partly because neither of us is very confident behind the wheel, and partly because we live in a city with with excellent transport. We're resigned to getting a car though because as the fftzling gets older he'll need to get to see a wider variety of places (castles, seaside etc) which are more or less inaccessible by public transport. (One castle we visited before he came along was served by a bus once every four hours. The bus we waited for failed to show up. Don't want to be risking that with a bored and hungry child).

An observation about a group of mums and dads that we're part of is that those of us who don't own a car are generally on time at meet ups and those who do are often late. I'm sure it's not car ownership that's responsible for this, but its annoying when you've carefully planned around multiple bus timetables to make sure you arrive on time.

MoetEtPantsOn Fri 28-Dec-12 08:02:26

linerunner that's what I had inferred from her posts really. Everyone just being so madly defensive.

I agree with the OP anyway. In our group of friends a few of the DHs don't drive because they grew up in London. We all have kids so its much easier to drive to see each other because of all the paraphernalia/ needing car seats and taxis not having them/ public transport not so good where we live now.

I find it a pain because my girlfriends never get to have a drink at gatherings.

HollyMadison Fri 28-Dec-12 08:03:17

There's a difference between not being able to drive and choosing not to run a car. I think driving is an essential life skill but running a car is not a necessity.

You may not always live in a place with public transport and if life circumstances change you may need to start driving. You may also need to do it in an emergency (take sick child to hospital in rural area? - it could happen!).

myBOYSareBONKERS Fri 28-Dec-12 08:03:44

I actually agree with the OP. I am in a group of friends who all live around the country and meet up approx once a month.

Non driving friend has got snippy that we are not going to her area EVERYTIME as we all drive and she doesn't. I have no problem with travelling over an hour to see people who will then make the effort to return to my area next time.

I also do not drink out of choice but I get fed up being the one who has to do all the lifts with more local friends.

NumericalMum Fri 28-Dec-12 08:30:22

Sil doesn't drive which means lovely Bil is always designated driver when they visit, had to drive her an hour round trip to work on weekends when public transport was bad and will always be the kids' taxi. She has a license but hates driving. I wish I could just opt out of my responsibilities by pulling that card!

And whilst I do drive I always choose trains or buses but we live in central London. When we lived in "the country" we had a bus service every two hours that sometimes never turned up hmm

ByTheWay1 Fri 28-Dec-12 08:52:59

I have a license but hate driving..... I do not see it as "opting out of my responsibilities" strangely enough..... hmm - every time I get behind the wheel of a car I get an overriding fear that I may kill someone.... so I choose not to drive any more...

We live in the suburbs - on 3 bus routes, within walking distance of shops/pub/supermarket etc.. I CHOOSE to live there BECAUSE I don't want to have to drive.

If I had a car we would not be able to afford the holidays we take, my family prefer the holidays to being ferried about by mum... I meet friends in town - no one has suggested anywhere I, or anyone else can't get to... most people want a drink, so if we ALL get the bus that can happen.

oh - and hubby is happy with me not driving since we "traded"..... he does the driving - which he loves and is very, very good at, I iron which he hates and is spectacularly crap at......

flow4 Fri 28-Dec-12 09:02:39

Eeeow, I agree public transport users are often more reliable than drivers! On a related note, one hard winter before I could drive, when I was teaching at a college in a nearby town, only myself and the one other non-driver made it in... All the drivers in the department stayed at home - and it didn't even cross their petrol heads minds to catch a bus or train to work instead!

fuckadoodlepoopoo Fri 28-Dec-12 09:27:53

Bytheway. I once worked out on another thread how much it costs me to go by public transport vs by car including the maintenance. Public transport was actually more expensive. This included working out how much the extra time travelling cost me in loss of earnings seeing as i work by the hour. It meant i would spend 2 hours less at work a day which of course adds up!

crashdoll Fri 28-Dec-12 09:40:13

I get taxis most places (paid out of my DLA) and it still works out cheaper than running a car. However, if my condition improves, I'd like to be able to drive again. After reading this thread, I sure won't be offering lifts and then quietly seething when the person accepts.

pigletmania Fri 28-Dec-12 09:55:29

There are some really nasty comments. Not everyone can or has the aptitude to drive, it's not all about being able to make a car go but safety, other road users pedestrians to consider as well as driving the thing. Actually quite complex and high skills are needed. Some people on the roads should not be driving at all really. As long you are not entitled and expect, make independent plans to get there and back what's the problem

jamdonut Fri 28-Dec-12 10:43:09

My husband doesn't drive. He's 52 and failed his test when 17, and just didn't bother again! He walks most places. Or if I can't drop him somewhere , his dad is very amenable and will take him!
Don't see how that makes him a PITA though. I often wish he could drive, when its me going out into the cold to pick up my 16 year old daughter though!

ophelia275 Fri 28-Dec-12 11:08:36

I learnt to drive very late in life and I absolutely HATE driving in London, I find it terrifying because other drivers are so rude, aggressive and generally don't abide by the highway code, so I choose not to.

I don't depend on anyone for lifts, if they offer I accept but if not, I always make my own way. I do a lot of walking (to school and back for example) and I have lost a lot of weight and got fit in the process. My kids are not spoilt brats who expect to be driven everywhere (unlike a lot of the kids in my dc school who cry if they aren't going by car) and walk every day with me and never complain about it.

Driving is expensive in this country. Expensive to buy a car, expensive to learn to drive, petrol is expensive, road tax, MOT and insurance costs are crazy. And god forbid you are actually in an accident, your insurance costs will rocket!

pigletmania Fri 28-Dec-12 11:37:08

Exactly ophilia there are better ways I can spend or save that money on

gettingeasier Fri 28-Dec-12 11:39:50

Passed my test at 19

Got my first car at 30

Have no interest in car owning status of other people

Would not regularly offer lifts unless I wanted to and definitely wouldnt give a second lift to a piss taker

cinnamonnut Fri 28-Dec-12 11:42:35

Lots of drivers are wankers in this country anyway now. I swear it gets harder every year to get someone to let you out, even if they'd probably get home no later - it'd probably delay their journey by about a second!

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 11:43:21

I do think a lot of non drivers assume a driver will pick up the slack now and again.

Mil, I'm looking at you.

Oh and you over the road. Yes it's tipping down with rain but there's a reason I can get my son to school nice and dry. Please don't pretend you've slept in when you send your ds to my door at ten to 8 (when you've still got at least 40 minute before leaving) just be fucking honest. `it's wet and I can't be fucked walking to school in the rain, take ds for me' would be a lot more accurate.

lidlqueen Fri 28-Dec-12 11:45:08

i must say I was made to feel like a pITA on occasion mostly by my brother when i did not drive, although i think that was more to do with him than me.
I love having a licence and a car now, just so that certain other people cannot make me feel like shit.

ArthurPewty Fri 28-Dec-12 11:46:28

some of us have no choice sad

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 11:46:56

Oh and you up the road. How the fuck am I expected to say no, get a taxi you lazy fuck, when you turn up at my door at 8pm sayin you've been told to take your youngest to the childrens hospital, can one of us drive you up? I keep a car on the road for such occasions, maybe you should do the same.

lidlqueen Fri 28-Dec-12 11:48:16

we used buses and cabs mrskeith, tell her up the road to do the same.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 11:49:15

I get even more rage over non drinking dh who always has the car. Great for me, other people seem to think it's for their benefit too. 'oh well Keith is driving, he could run you home, save gettin a taxi'

Fuck you, we all have the option not to drink.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 11:50:18

When someone's on your doorstep with sick child? And I know their skint? I'm not a big enough bitch to turn them away, I will seethe about it though!

mrsjay Fri 28-Dec-12 11:52:36

When someone's on your doorstep with sick child? And I know their skint? I'm not a big enough bitch to turn them away, I will seethe about it though!

Does this happen often then ? because if a neighbour was sick and couldn't get to hospital im sure I wouldn't seethe about it

lidlqueen Fri 28-Dec-12 11:54:52

yes I would take them - bit annoying tho.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 11:55:01

But it's the assumption that pissed me off. I've yet to meet a non driver that hasn't relied on a driver at some point.

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 11:57:08

Her ds had swallowed a penny, they'd been waiting 3 days for it to come out and she got told to take them up for an x ray.

This same women barely acknowledges me in the street. She's chronically shy apparently.

lidlqueen Fri 28-Dec-12 11:57:15

you are right mrskeith - that is what pushed me to pass the test and buy a vehicle - the feeling like a child at the age of 40odd and asking people for lifts.
I feel like a proper grown-up now as I rattle my keys and fling the shopping into the boot!

mrsjay Fri 28-Dec-12 11:58:16

I can't say i have rellied on anybody tbh, but my husband drives I dont ask for lifts i get about on my own, and even when we were skint and didnt have a car we always managed to make do

MrsKeithRichards Fri 28-Dec-12 12:01:22

And the guilt I feel when I bump into someone on my street at Tesco balancing carrier bags on their pram whilst I hop in the car, watching them standing at the bus stop in the rain. I feel obliged to offers but I don't because I don't have the room or proper seats etc but I can almost feel the daggers!

GreatCongas Fri 28-Dec-12 12:08:25

You know why public transport is now crap, why beeching closed all the railways? Because of those pesky car drivers that's why
So it goes both ways. Maybe the non driver can't help with the elderly parent but the drivers of this world have made life harder for the non driver too grin

ivykaty44 Fri 28-Dec-12 12:08:32

if more and more people didn't drive then transport would get better -eventually

flippinada Fri 28-Dec-12 12:09:36

Oh, this old chestnut pops up on MN every so often.

I don't drive, although I've tried very hard to learn (lots of lessons). Unfortunately, I can't afford to now anyway.

I manage to hold down a job and look after my DS just fine (we live in a city and within walking distance of a good primary and secondary school) so I'm not bothered. Nor do I rely on lifts.

Surely the problem is selfish, entitled people who expect to be catered to - not non drivers.

I can quite appreciate how annoying it is if you have people in your life who expect to be ferried about though

VitoCorleone Fri 28-Dec-12 12:13:41

Im currently learning to drive (failed my first test in November, taking it again end of Jan) and i cant fucking wait til i can drive.

Im quite rural and buses are a nightmare with a toddler and baby in a pram. I absolutley HATE having to rely on public transport and lifts, to the point where i barely go anywhere.

Roll on January and fingers crossed i pass so that i can have some freedom and independance!

lidlqueen Fri 28-Dec-12 12:15:39

I wish you good luck vitocorleone!!

GreatCongas Fri 28-Dec-12 12:17:58

Vito
I should be taking mine around the same time too. smile Good luck

Even then though ill have to ask for lifts for those times when I currently have to such as after being sedated at the dentist or being injured. (Obviously don't want to get a taxi while woosey)

NumericalMum Fri 28-Dec-12 12:21:12

I think you are right flip but I think there are a lot of people I have met in my time who don't drive because they don't want to be the ones to be designated drivers or to have to go out in the cold to fetch their children etc. If you can't afford a car or never rely on lifts that is a whole other three. Perhaps non drivers by choice would be a better title?

Croccy1979 Fri 28-Dec-12 12:25:37

As a teenager my best friend's parents did not have a car and my Mum constantly used to ferry her around with me to dancing classes, horse riding lessons, parties etc etc

Not once did they say thank you to my Mum or offer her a couple of quid petrol money etc.

Fair enough if you don't want to drive (personal choice) but if you are regularly getting lifts from other people at least say thank you and offer them a couple of quid petrol money from time to time!

naomilpeb Fri 28-Dec-12 12:26:06

I think it's all a bit more complicated than 'adults who can't drive are a nuisance'. It's not just knowing how to drive, it's having the money to own and run a car. DP and I both work in London, but live in a town outside London. It would make absolutely no sense to drive to work, and would take longer than using public transport, and cost more. We can't justify the cost of a car that would sit outside our house five days a week - in fact I doubt we could actually afford it at the moment. So far, we and the children get by walking, cycling and using buses. Sometimes peoples offer us lifts places, and sometimes we accept them. And sometimes we can't do things, but such is life. We're not irresponsible because we don't have a car. I trust my friends to only offer us a lift if they don't mind doing it - and I make sure that I thank them when they do and never take them for granted. I might do something for them sometime, like take them some food when they're not well, look after one of their kids while they're at the doctors, or give them advice on a job they're applying for (just some random things I've recently done for friends). People help each other out, it's kind of the way the world goes round!

atthewelles Fri 28-Dec-12 12:26:13

Okay, okay, I was in a grumpy post cooped uptogether too long mood yesterday when I made that, admittedly rather sweeping, OP. I also called into my mother to discover that my non driving sibling (sister not brother by the way) had done trojan work in helping my mother to sort out a load of medical forms and paper work for reclaiming costs from her insurance (something I woudl be absolutely useless at.)

I do realise there are myriad reasons why people might not drive and that not all non drivers expect lifts here, there and everywhere. I do think, though, that a section of non drivers don't always appreciate how much drivers have to go out of their way sometimes to collect them, bring them home from somewhere, take on a lot of the ferrying around of elderly parents and so on and just take it for granted that 'someone' will bring them home. Of course I don't mind, in the general scheme of things, offering people lifts. Just sometimes, when someone is taking me miles out of my way and obviously thinks its just a minor detour on my way home from work or whatever, I feel a bit grrr. Also, it would considerably ease things sometimes if I could ring my sister and say 'hi, how are you fixed for taking time off work on Mon to bring mum to the hospital/train station or whatever.

Anyway, didn't mean to offend so many non drivers. blush

sparkina Fri 28-Dec-12 12:27:50

YANBU. I agree with you. Even if you don't need to drive in your day to day life why would you limit yourself by not learning to drive.

flippinada Fri 28-Dec-12 12:30:29

I think its the expectation that you should be happy to act as a free taxi service that people get pissed off about - which is entirely understandable!

flippinada Fri 28-Dec-12 12:31:25

Non driver over here, not offended atthewelles smile.

GreatCongas Fri 28-Dec-12 12:33:58

Spark because its hundred and hundreds of pounds

mrsjay Fri 28-Dec-12 12:34:34

I wasn't offended either just so much rage about non drivers grin it is fine to rant and I do agree driving is a life skill but it isn't essential, saying all that though we made sure dd had driving lessons for her 17th birthday and she now scoots about to college and work and has the freedom, I can just manage to get about not driving it is no biggie imo

VitoCorleone Fri 28-Dec-12 13:01:15

GreatCongas - good luck to you too, mine is 24th Jan

crashdoll Fri 28-Dec-12 13:13:32

You weren't offensive atthewelles, I just thought you were wrong! Everyone has an opinion and all that jazz. smile Seriously though, tell your freeloading sibling to take a hike.

orangerex Fri 28-Dec-12 13:18:47

YANBU. I have people close to me who don't drive and both make far too many assumptions about lifts (while pretending to be totally independent). Very frustrating having to work around them and being expected to make detours.

pigletmania Fri 28-Dec-12 13:25:57

There are rude car and non car drivers. I don't ask for lifts I book taxes or get bus , if someone offers me a lift I decline but if they insist I take. And offer money. Yes dh does drive now and again to places but that's dh, I don't exect him ypto go out his way if he sys no I get the bus if yes than I go with him

mathsconundrum Fri 28-Dec-12 13:36:05

YANBU but neither is it much to get het up about. I learnt at 39 and as I'd hoped its been one of the best things I've ever done. I hated cadging lifts, smelly busses and lugging buggies. I never told people I don't drive. I always said I can't. It wasn't a choice. I couldn't and now I can. Hurrah!

gettingeasier Fri 28-Dec-12 13:39:22

orangerex why do you allow this ? Bite the bullet and say" I'm afraid in the New Year I wont be able to do XY and Z "

Like anything once you have said no then its over with and so is the thing annoying you

Lending a hand or helping people out is nice to do but something becoming a routine expectation is not.

Sunnywithachanceofjinglebells Fri 28-Dec-12 13:45:52

atthewelles thanks for coming back. I do sympathise when people are being a PITA, it must be aggravating.

ouryve Fri 28-Dec-12 13:52:44

OP - the problem is your relationship with your sibling, not people who don't drive in general.

SoggySummer Fri 28-Dec-12 14:00:44

Its relative to your lifestyle and where you live.

If you live out in the sticks and away from family and familiar people on a country bus route with 3 buses a day (if you are lucky) and nothing else then I think you are stupid to not to learn to drive.

If you live in a city with excellent transport links then fine why bother.

I drive and have done since I was 17. I am currently finding the expense of running a car fairly difficult but am currently living 10 miles from a town and 3 miles from a village and 2 miles from a shop. Buses are infrequent. Not driving whilst living here would be daft imo.

My DH is in the forces and we have lived at various bases over the UK. Once or twice we have sold my car (the second family car) because the local transport links have been so fab - it cheaper to dump the car. That said, I still had use of DHs car so not 100% reliant on public transport.

I really dont get people who are married to people in the Forces not bothering to learn to drive. These people do piss me off tbh. They are likely to posted to places they have little say in. To parts of the UK that may be miles from relatives and initially they will know absolutely no one. There is no guarantee which street or estate you will be housed - so no guarantee how near or far you will be from your DCs school. No guarantee you will get your kids into the nearest school. No guarantee you can register with the camp med centre etc etc. The amount of wives (it is wives in the main) that dont drive but then moan like buggery because they have to rely in lifts or walk X distance to a crappy bus stop on a crappy narrow national speed limit country lane with no bus shelter in order to get their kids to school, Drs etc etc. Some rely on their husbands for lifts which is fab until they go on 6 to 8 week pre dep training prior to their 6/7 months in Afghan. These women - seem to rely heavily on the wives that do drive. Alot of these women do not either have an emergency or contingency fund in the house to cover the cost of an emergency taxi 10/15 miles away to the nearesr OOH emergency Drs - they prefer to reply on the kindness of those around who do drive.

Really I would never turn down a person knocking at my door 6pm on a dark wet February evening or 2am needing a crisis trip anywhere - but its the expectation that pisses me off . Recently - I have done 3 mercy missions to our local A&E/OOH (10 to 15 miles away making it a 20/30 mile round trip) to help out people and only 1 has offered me petrol money and even the parking costs. I would never ever leave them stranded but - some people do seem to have a certain expectancy in an emergency and do take the piss. Like I have said before running a car these days is not cheap and becoming a strain for us financially but living where we do - an absolute essential.

I do accept learning to drive is not cheap as well - but Forces Wives can get help and assistance these days because the welfare teams etc are beginning to realise in this lifetsyle - it pretty damn good life skill to have.

GreatCongas Fri 28-Dec-12 14:10:04

The average amount of lessons is 45 hours
Plus 22 private hours

That's about 1.5k without the private hours
I can't take private hours so have to pay for all my driving

It is not cheap in the slightest and I'm not even replacing fares with it as I rarely go anywhere I can't walk

I imagine I'm not the only one
And I know the op excluded cost as one of the reasons but cost probably covers a large quantity of people who haven't learned. Or is one of the reasons anyway

VitoCorleone Fri 28-Dec-12 14:28:05

My lessons cost £37 for 1.5 hours.

Test is £62 plus about £50 to use my instructors car for an hour before the test and then for the test

I got my car for £475

Insurance when i pass is about £100 a month

Then tax, MOTs, petrol etc

Alot of people simply cant afford it. Ive only managed because my DP has worked A LOT of overtime to help me out.

ReindeerBollocks Fri 28-Dec-12 14:37:04

For me personally it's about the attitude of the non driver.

My mum bussed us everywhere as children and we did a lot without relying on others. She still to this day would jump on a tram to our house if I asked her to visit us. Equally I have friends who are happy to get on a bus to visit me, as they know I do 80% of the driving for visits. As their attitude is not one of 'take, take, take' I regularly give them lifts as they appreciate it.

However I have friends who refuse to drive or take a bus. They think public transport is abhorrent and that if they have friends who can drive then those friends should give lifts. I have a friend who expects me to drive him to do his weekly shop FFS! Those friends are a bloody nuisance and quite annoying. I also have a sibling who refuses to get the bus but makes every other friend or relative run around after them, without even so much as a thank you, and they moan if the person giving lifts is late. This is the type of person I really dislike, and actually I think that they do a disservice to all other non drivers (who are always grateful for lifts in my experience).

clitterclatter Fri 28-Dec-12 14:48:35

I agree Reindeer.

There are, of course, lots of non drivers who are happy to get about under their own steam. But there are some who really are a PITA. Always jumping at even the most half hearted offer of a lift and constantly sitting in the backs of people's cars like lumps of useless lard oblivious to the fact that they're bringing someone miles out of their way in heavy rush hour traffic. Those non-drivers genuinely are a nuisance.

gettingeasier Fri 28-Dec-12 14:56:44

reindeer weekly shop ? Are you actually serious ?

clitterclatter "oh sorry I'm not going that way"

Jeez am I a bitch then that I simply wouldnt dream of doing half of what some of you get roped into ???

motherhennypenny Fri 28-Dec-12 15:03:23

Well I can't drive, and I'm in full-time, paid employment. We've never been able to afford all the costs involved in running a car, so there's very little point in investing our hard-pressed cash into getting either of us a license for now.

I do hope to pass in a few years time though. And I'm never a burden on friends and family, because we live literally opposite a very good, well connected train station that gets us into the center fairly quickly (not so cheaply these days, unfortunately) so... not a problem for us, for now.

usualsuspect3 Fri 28-Dec-12 15:05:42

Useless lumps of lard? nice.

And you were complaining about people being grumpy on MN yesterday.

SantasWearingHisTrampyPants Fri 28-Dec-12 15:16:09

I would never ask someone to take me to do my shopping.n I shop online, I have a trolley or I get a taxi. But I have manners.

OwlBabies Fri 28-Dec-12 15:20:00

Unusually for me, I can see all sides. I love driving, live in inner London, have a non-driving DH, lived for years without a car and now have one. I do think that being able to drive - in case you ever need to, for whatever reason - is a useful life skill. I don't mind doing all the driving when we go on holiday or whatever (on the grounds that whoever isn't driving has to be in charge of the DCs - ha), but it does occur to me that if something happened to me (broke wrist, say, and we were on holiday somewhere), we'd be a bit stuck with DH unable to do it.

I know lots of people say they don't like driving, or struggle with it - but I do take the view that there are things you just have to get over and get on with, if it makes life easier for your family. My PILs don't drive (note I didn't say can't drive) - and don't live in London, so don't have such easy access to public transport. This is fine for them - they don't mind walking, taking buses, etc, and I wouldn't think of criticising them for it, as it's up to them if they want to take half the day getting somewhere. But they have elderly parents of their own who are housebound, who would love to get out and about a bit more (let alone the need for hospital appointments etc) - having a car would be ideal in this situation, and I think everyone's quality of life is worse as a result.

So OP, I'm pretty much with you.

Floggingmolly Fri 28-Dec-12 15:23:36

Useless lumps of lard? Just say no hmm

Jins Fri 28-Dec-12 15:23:47

gettingeasier I agree with you. I find it very easy to say no to inappropriate lift requests

clitterclatter Fri 28-Dec-12 16:11:22

Yes, useless lumps of lard. I'm talking about the extreme cases of non drivers presuming all the time on drivers, not just your average non driver. But some people just genuinely can't be arsed to learn to drive and to do all the practise necessary but at the same time want the convenience of being driven around the place and just expect that there will always be someone around with the offer of a lift, always accept lifts even when they know its taking the driver well out of their way, never say 'oh just let me out at a bus stop' or whatever.

crashdoll Fri 28-Dec-12 16:28:25

clitterclatter You are rather hypocritical. Me thinks you are the grumpy one. Incidentally, I am not a lump of lard because I don't need a car to drive me everywhere.

AlreadyScone Fri 28-Dec-12 16:30:27

YANBU.

usualsuspect3 Fri 28-Dec-12 16:32:44

Why don't you sat no then?

usualsuspect3 Fri 28-Dec-12 16:33:21

say*

usualsuspect3 Fri 28-Dec-12 16:34:55

I rather think the drive everywhere people are more likely to be lumps of lard.

everlong Fri 28-Dec-12 16:37:59

Good observation usual you're probably right doesn't include myself though in the lump or lard category

crashdoll Fri 28-Dec-12 16:44:38

I might start a thread on the useless lumps of lards in their cars who toot their horn at me when I'm crossing the road in the right place at the right time.

Lueji Fri 28-Dec-12 16:46:11

Well, my 102 grandmother apparently would be happy to jump on a taxi and return to her (rather cold and uncomfortable) house, instead of staying with my parents.
If she can figure it out, so most non-drivers. grin

Yes, using a taxi can be expensive for longer distances, but factoring in for the costs of running a car (tax, service, petrol, cleaning, parking, depreciation, etc), it can be a lot cheaper per year.

Owl, I know what you mean. Ex once forgot his driving licence when we went on holiday. We had rented a car and had gone quite far away from the airport. I got food poisoning half way through and my dad ended up driving us to the airport, about 300 miles away. He and my mum returned by train.

My mum is one of those who has a valid driving licence but hasn't driven for ages, at least 35 years. Apparently because she's not very good and my dad was a very annoying back seat driver. True that he is, but I managed to get past it when I started driving at 18. It can be annoying because my dad is getting older and she needs to be ferried around, when she could easily just grab the car and go wherever she wants. I wonder if it's about control, as this way she always needs to have company instead of going about herself.
A friend of mine is going the same way, although she does get around a lot in public transport and taxis.

giveitago Fri 28-Dec-12 16:47:35

Lots of people I know don't have cars. I don't think they are PITA - I think they are hard up and they don't try and get lifts from us. So I offer anyway.

Lueji Fri 28-Dec-12 16:49:26

On the other hand, P took a 40 min round trip the other day just to take me home, instead of letting me go by public transport.
But that was for his benefit, of course. More time in my company. wink

Wheresmypopcorn Fri 28-Dec-12 19:47:52

as a driver, I think you are bu.

ChoccoPuddo Fri 28-Dec-12 21:14:48

Cor OP not surprised you have had a big response to your post YABVVVU
Unreasonable to expect everyone to even want to drive. Life is perfectly manageable without a car. If you don't want to offer lifts then don't. If you do then don't moan about it. I find some car drivers quite arrogant about the fact that they drive and I choose not to. What makes you better than me? Get out of your car and go for a walk to relax!!

bureni Fri 28-Dec-12 21:17:48

If every adult in the U.K drove a car the entire country would be in constant gridlock 24/7, it is bad enough already.

AlreadyScone Fri 28-Dec-12 21:19:36

It does annoy me when non-drivers sometimes imagine that my owning a car is a bit like having access to some sort of tardis-like, time-travelling matter transporter. The most recent one was someone 200 miles away who wanted to give me their old chest freezer and was most put out when I explained that it wouldn't fit in my hatchback.

Or sometimes one of them will offer to take my kids to an event in their home town that starts at 7pm on a Friday, but I finish work at 5pm 40 miles from home, and then need to travel 25 miles from home to their house... stressful...

I know that sounds mean but there are a lot of adult non-drivers in my family and it is hard (and expensive) work being one of the few with wheels.

upstart68 Fri 28-Dec-12 21:21:32

YABU some people for whatever reason do not have the capacity to drive. For some people it causes debilitating anxiety. It's more frustrating for them than it is for you. In the same way some people can't do maths, can't swim, can't play tennis. You must be incredibly adept at everything to be able to pass judgment like this.

They could of course, attempt to drive, and put other people's lives at risk - but most of us in this position choose not to. Neither do we ask for lifts, or expect them. We use public transport and walk a lot. That suits us just fine.

Any room for accepting differences in your life? No I thought not.

drizzlecake Fri 28-Dec-12 21:25:17

OP needs to tell the non-drive she can't be arsed to ferry him/her about. It's the OP who is in the wrong, not the non-driver.

Booblesonthetree Fri 28-Dec-12 21:27:45

I don't drive. I panic everytime I get behind the wheel of a car. However my NY resolution is to get over myself and bloody learn!!
Until then however I will carry on doing what I've been doing up to now, namely using public transport and walking, and not being a nuisance as I hardly ever accept lifts anywhere.
YABU.

ChoccoPuddo Fri 28-Dec-12 21:31:11

Scone- not all non- drivers see cars the way you describe, how patronising of you. I think it's quite the opposite SOME car drivers are rude, arrogant and wasteful not to mention lazy when it comes to getting from A to B. just because you drive it certainly doesn't automatically elevate you to a higher being, anything but actually.

DrCoconut Fri 28-Dec-12 21:36:27

I can't pass a test. The theory is easy and I have always got full marks (needed to do it twice as it expired, second one is now expired too). But the practical is just awful and even if I do an OK lesson before, I fluff the test. I concluded that it is just a hideous waste of money and with things being quite tight at the moment we can't justify paying out more money for more lessons and then another test which I will likely fail. Even if I got a licence we can't afford a second car so we manage with one (DH drives). It is inconvenient at times but usually we go places as a family so not as bed as if I was single I guess. I use buses, taxi's etc when alone and walk to work. DS1 (age 14) walks to school as it is 5 minutes away. It's good for him. I guess maybe people judge me for not driving but I have tried and just can't do it.

DrCoconut Fri 28-Dec-12 21:39:01

**not as bad!

AlreadyScone Fri 28-Dec-12 21:39:08

ChoccoPuddo - there are "sometimes" in my posts, it wasn't blanket.

I didn't drive until I was 28 due to severe driving anxiety and skintness so I know the issues well. I think you owe me an apology.

I don't drive, I don't want to drive. I tried, it is not a skill I am good at, no amount of practicing was improving things and quite frankly the world is a safer place without another shit driver on the road.

I am more than capable of getting buses (a whole £11.50 per week to get anywhere I want to), I like getting trains, I take a book with me if I am going to arrive somewhere early or take a taxi. I actually turn down more lifts than I accept because I am, you know, a grown up who is capable of getting where I want to go.

Quite frankly OP I think you sound like the one with a problem, if you don't want to give people lifts, then don't just don't generalise and be an arsehole to the millions of us who are actually able to behave like grownups.

Oh and I pay for taxis for friends when it is my turn to be 'designated driver', I am fantastic in a crisis. I can make calls and arrangements whilst waiting for taxi, on a train etc.

MummytoMog Fri 28-Dec-12 21:49:56

It's a PITA. I really resent having to ferry round people for family events, because they 'don't like driving'. No shit? Cos I love getting up three hours earlier to pick you up on the way to a funeral and then drop you back off again!

SolidGoldFrankensteinandmurgh Fri 28-Dec-12 21:58:38

I rather look down on people who won't use public transport. (Again, exemptions for those with mobility problems/other health problems/several small DC). People who go oo, eek, waa, couldn't possibly get on a night bus! So they won't come out to play because of parking issues...

inadreamworld Fri 28-Dec-12 22:09:59

We can only afford one car. DH is an excellent driver. I hated driving and failled my test twice. I would be a danger on the roads. And we live in a place with excellent public transport. I don't ask for lifts from people and only accept lifts now and then even when offered. I like walking and can walk miles pushing a heavy toddler in buggy even though I am 38 weeks pregnant! Walking is good for you. YABVVVVU OP!!!

NiniLegsInTheAir Fri 28-Dec-12 22:14:26

It took me 2 years and 6 attempts to pass my practical test, I was just so petrified on test days I could barely function. Got there in the end though but usually walk or use public transport unless driving is really needed.

Agree with solidgold about drivers who would never use public transport if its available. It's pathetic. The majority of my neighbours where I live drive 5-10 minutes to work rather than do a 20 minute walk. One neighbour (mid-30s in perfectly good health) refuses to go shopping in town because they charge for parking and she doesn't want to do the 10 minute walk. I don't get it - walking is free, good for the environment and good for your health.

As others have said, if every person had a car the roads would never move. And parking is bad enough as it is.

inadreamworld Fri 28-Dec-12 22:15:31

I will say that it is helpful having a DH who drives though! DrCoconut totally empathise - I am exactly the same, just fluff the test - not worth the money spent on lessons.

cinnamonnut Fri 28-Dec-12 22:27:21

Buses? Wait, an actual bus? With other people? Goodness, no.

^ That is the attitude of too many people.

inadreamworld Fri 28-Dec-12 22:36:33

I agree cinnamonnut

I love buses and chatting to random people on them.

VelvetSpoon Fri 28-Dec-12 22:47:54

I can't drive. I tried, I have had lessons. I might just about scrape the practical in an automatic, but I can't do the hazard perception bit of the theory. At all.

So I manage without a car. I very rarely get lifts anywhere - I get the bus, or the train, or a taxi, or I walk, to where I need to go. A car would be helpful sometimes (if we were going on a weekend away it would avoid cross London tube hell, so I could drive to Ikea my friends houses in Essex, for taking the DSs to football/cricket matches in the arse end of nowhere) BUT it's not an essential for me, nor for a lot of other people like me.

sue52 Fri 28-Dec-12 22:49:30

It really depends where you live. When I was in Maida Vale there was nowhere to park and taxis were readily available so it seemed silly to keep a car and I only drove when I was in the country. Now I live in the middle of nowhere and made my kids learn to drive (on my land) as soon as their feet could touch the pedals.

sue52 Fri 28-Dec-12 22:52:25

As for designated drivers, club together and use a taxi. Much fairer.

cumfy Fri 28-Dec-12 23:03:56

Oilcoholics.

babyphat Fri 28-Dec-12 23:05:29

YABU we are saving the environment and keeping cabbies in business <smug>

(I do have a licence but live in London, partly because I hate driving)

tangofan Fri 28-Dec-12 23:07:14

I understand that the OP is saying, I think, in that its not that non drivers are a pita, it's the piss taking ones that are - and I agree. Those self sufficient non drivers who don't inconvenience others -fab. I would happily go out of my way for you if need be but the ones that have you rearranging everything around them and treating immediate family like unpaid chauffeurs are not fucking on and yes, they should bloody well learn to drive. not talking about my mil at all, oh no

cinnamonnut Fri 28-Dec-12 23:08:08

^ That's true, but OP pretty much lumped all of us in together. Her only exceptions were medical/financial.

thunksheadontable Fri 28-Dec-12 23:10:36

I did four tests. I have anxiety issues about driving from having spent an awful lot of time as a child and young person being driven about by my severely alcoholic father who would fall asleep at the wheel, weave all over the place, had collisions with us in the car, would roar abuse at you if you tried to get him to stop. I still have nightmares about it. No one knows this is why I don`t drive. It always saddens me that people are hmm about me not driving. I hate not being able to drive but after spending 5k on learning and being in a state of panic in tests and failing by one major on three despite instructors telling me I am ready I feel I am not in a place to continue for now. It holds me back at work and it results in double commuting time and makes me feel like crap. It particularly annoys me when those judging had driving lessons at 17 paid for by the Bank of Mum and Dad.

Mu1berryBush Sat 29-Dec-12 13:38:08

the test is too hard on nervous drivers i think. i've failed a few times for that too, but yet i see 17 year old boys driving around, with four more school boys crammed into the back of the car and I think 'you are fucking kidding me? he passed and I didn't (again)'. I don't believe it. It would make you see red. It is a pain not being able to drive (legally) but I'm not the PITA. it's the money making racket of a system that is the driving school industry.

I get annoyed too when things are arranged for places that you can ONLY get to by car. I am usually very independent jumping off buses and trains and walking. But sometimes you've no choice but to ask for a lift.

flow4 Sat 29-Dec-12 13:55:25

I think the driving test should be continuous assessment - i.e. new drivers get assessed over several hours, perhaps by their instructor, like the Pass Plus.

I had the frustrating experience of having two different instructors tell me I was ready for the test, several years apart, and driving hundreds of miles and hours and hours, safely, with someone in the passenger seat... Yet failing my test five times because I get nervous under test conditions!

It cost me thousands of pounds... In the end, I reconciled myself to the expense by thinking "Ah well, £30/week is pretty much what insurance will cost me when I do eventually pass"!

Mu1berryBush Sat 29-Dec-12 13:59:46

I hear you flow4. The amount of money I've spent trying to be legal. If driving instructors had the power to do a continual assessment form of test then I think that would suit me better. Other people who suit the short sharp effort required to drive perfectly for just half an hour might not benefit from that system of course. I am only in my early forties but tbh I've given up on ever driving. It just doesn't seem worth it. I could sink hundreds into it (again) and only frustrate myself. And that's before you buy a car and run it.

GreatCongas Sat 29-Dec-12 14:03:15

Oh goodness
Don't make me think about the test
The reason I never did a levels was I couldn't face any more exams/tests. I hate them and crumble

drizzlecake Sat 29-Dec-12 14:21:50

thunksheadontable why don't you tell people why you don't drive, they would be v sympathetic.

It's possibly the humiliation YOU feel for your father's behaviour but it was nothing to do with you. (also had an alcy father)

MrsKeithRichards Sat 29-Dec-12 14:27:30

I fucking hate buses. They stink, they cost a fortune and take ages. £3.75 and 45 minutes for a ten mile trip that would take me no more than 15 minutes at my convenience, not once an hour.

Spuddybean Sat 29-Dec-12 14:30:23

I can't drive. I have failed my test numerous times and been learning on and off for 19 years. I have spent thousands on lessons. I am utterly shite at it, not to mention dangerous. I consider it my gift to humanity NOT to get behind a wheel.

I never ask for lifts, and now i live in a rural area, spend about £30 per week on taxis.

DP drives and we still get taxis out so he can have a drink. It just wouldn't be fair if he couldn't.

SomethingOnce Sat 29-Dec-12 15:03:49

Adults who can drive and choose to do so all the time when they could easily walk or take public transport ABU.

Their choice to clutter the roads with their personal metal boxes at every opportunity is a nuisance for public transport users.

MrsKeithRichards Sat 29-Dec-12 15:28:04

I'll walk to school but I'll be fucked if I'm spending time and money to go to work when I've got a car in the drive. Getting a bus would defeat the point!

ByTheWay1 Sat 29-Dec-12 16:56:41

Our car - which needs to be reliable for hubby's job is costing us £250 a month for 4 years to buy, road tax is another £11 a month and insurance another £30... tyres are about 1 new one per year on average so say another £10, servicing and MOT another £30, petrol for non-work use is around £60 a month....

So around £400 a month- would pay for a fair few bus trips..... or taxis... hence we have one car.. I walk and bus it anyhow since hubby has the car for work, if he didn't need it then we would get rid of it completely....

Mu1berryBush Sat 29-Dec-12 16:58:55

spuddybean, that's a good idea really. i should take a taxi next time i need to be somewhere not on transport route. still so much cheaper than getting a car.

Lueji Sat 29-Dec-12 17:04:26

But sometimes you've no choice but to ask for a lift.

You get a taxi.

GrrrArghZzzzYaayforall8nights Sat 29-Dec-12 17:14:56

OP - while it is reasonable to be angry at your brother, some people are very entitled and annoying and some of those people also do not drive. But to put us all like that is a bit harsh - you are used to life with a car, you arrange your life that way, those of us without them are used to it and arrange out lives that way.

Like socializing, yours seem centered on going out places to drink. In my circle of friends, only 2 have licenses that I know of and only one still has a car. In the rest, 4 are medically not allowed to drive (though you wouldn't know that by looking at them and they're not likely to bring it up), including my husband who will only say he doesn't drive and wasn't good at it, most don't know about his medical reasons. So our socializing is mostly about hanging out at each others houses, playing games, painting, and such. I open my house two evening a week at least for people to come over and do stuff together, typically more. One of my friends comes so regularly by cab that they know where he is going and who by his number and time of call. We don't drink anyways so always able to get people a taxi home.

As for caring for family, most people with disabilities and health problems that I know prefer to use their own support network other than their kids. My FIL and GMIL are very firm on this, the former won't even be a car passenger so any emergency would be by ambulance knocked out anyways (and for both we had to struggle to get them to do when they were obviously having heart problems). We no longer live close enough to give that kind of support (used to live with in-laws), and they travel less as there health deteriorates so we call them regularly, check that people are visiting them often and that their appointments and meds are going well, and set up electronics so they can do video calls now and see their grandkids more often if only by screen which has done more for their health than anything else I've seen recently. There are many ways to care other than driving.

I have 4 kids, a social life, and a business and run my general life without a car. Yes, they can be useful, but not having a car doesn't automatically equal someone who is an uncaring moocher. We just arrange our lives differently.

lockets Sat 29-Dec-12 17:21:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ChristmasIsAcumenin Sat 29-Dec-12 17:49:24

YABU and gosh these threads make me anxious. You just wonder how much people are hating you for these esoteric reasons like not having the right hairstyle or owning the right kit or so on. So much haterade.

Just for your files, I've managed innumerable 3am visits to hospital without a car.

You can't park near most hospitals anyway.

i dont drive, last time i checked i was an adult. i am certainly not a nuisance. i walk everywhere i need to go and enjoy it. people do not organise themselves around me and im normally the sober walking everyone else home type. i am however going to learn to drive this year but mostly for the.dc so we can go further afield.

poshfrock Sun 30-Dec-12 10:34:33

Out of interest those of you who have children how did you get to hospital when you went in to labour if your DP didn't drive? When I was expecting DC1 the midwife asked me how I would get to hospital and I told her I would call an ambulance. She said this wasn't allowed and that if I did I would be charged for it. She suggested a cab. On the day we called 3 cab companies but none of them would take me when DH told them I was in labour in case I "messed up" their seats. So I had to get a bus. Whilst I'm all for public transport ( although I can drive myself) I have to say I was extremely unhappy and uncomfortable all the way there. DH still cannot drive 14 years later despite promising numerous times to learn. He is now an ex-DH.

RubyGates Sun 30-Dec-12 11:04:08

With DS2 I got the bus I got the bus home too.

With DS1 I walked. botth ways. HTH.

GrrrArghZzzzYaayforall8nights Sun 30-Dec-12 11:08:34

Taxi firms here had no problem with it here, gentleman was lovely about it, though I'm not sure if DH had told them ahead of time or not (I doubt it though, don't really need to tell them just had the clean-up charge to hand just in case). Used a yellow cab company though so their taxis are all designed to be easy to clean and know us pretty well.

I did take an ambulance with my first (I was panicky...) no one mentioned anything about charges. I'm not even sure they could do that. I also went by ambulance with my third, though that was called by the midwife for an after home birth transfer due to midwife having yanked on the cord, causing the cord and a large chunk and lots of blood to come out problems with the placenta.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 11:15:21

Oh yes, people who don't drive are annoying. And they do want to learn, but are usually afraid to drive. They say they don't want to drive, but I don't believe them. Who would want to wait for a bus in the rain when they can jump in a car anytime of the day or night? Unless you live in central London and use the tube daily, I can't think of one reason not to want to drive. And even then, you'd want to drive out of London occasionally. Trains and buses nowhere near as convenient and cost the earth. Often more than petrol. For 100000% more hassle. Why not drive? Even people I know on tiny incomes manage to run and service a car. Why would anyone not drive? Is bizarre.

I would love to drive, but like previous poster says I am scared. I'm determined to do it this year!,

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 11:20:11

I admit that was the. One time I "relied" on a driver. I was happy to get taxi, but my dad wouldn't hear of it.

Fun fact, there. Are 8 houses in my cul de sac. 6 of those drive. There are 15 parking spaces. This morning all are full and there are 2 cars on the road right outside my windows. Why are so many cars necessary? Why can't drivers share responsibility?

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 11:22:31

Autumn, wow, how do you read mymind <eyeroll> have you read thethread?

SugarplumMary Sun 30-Dec-12 11:23:58

poshfrock taxi with first but we had to wait 45 minutes unusually long but we were coincidentally under a trial schemewhere MW came out to you before you went to hospital - so MW was there which I pleased with. MW couldn't get an ambulance despite me being 9 cm dilated and she couldn't take us in her car for insurance reasons. We just got there in time - whole thing was very short for a first pg.

Taxi driver wasn't thrilled as I was his second in labour lady that day- but took us and we weren't charged more.

DH wanted to get bus back from hospital - but one of his friends insisted on giving us a lift back and seeing baby which I was grateful for - we had baby seat as we had travel systems.

Next two home births. Many people insisted they'd be happy to take us to the hospital but we were happy to try HB for other reasons.

We did move house less than a week after second DC - removal frim had our stuff and we got on busses and trains and walked with toddler and baby to get there.

On few occasions we had to rush DC down to A & E - we've taken taxies which got here quickly.

GreatCongas Sun 30-Dec-12 11:25:02

Really autumn?
I never had the urge or the need to drive until recently.

SugarplumMary Sun 30-Dec-12 11:28:07

autumnlights12 - its not just petrol its the cost of the car and the cost of insurance.

However I think we are getting to the point with three DC, so five of us, that not driving and using public transport or taxies possibly isn't saving that much any more.

GrrrArghZzzzYaayforall8nights Sun 30-Dec-12 11:44:11

autumn - Is it that really bizarre that people have a different point of view? I don't live in London, I don't drive and neither does my DH and neither do the vast majority of our friends (only 1 has a car, he talks regularly of selling it as he doesn't like it or use it much). Nothing to do with fear, much to do with a different view of life and priorities. I'm just not bothered by walking or waiting for a bus or using a taxi, I just take it as part of life, I'm happy for the time cushion, and something that I choose to outsource to professionals when needed than deal with myself.

And the cost of cars is not just the petrol, buying a car, maintaining a car well, MOT, insurance...my BIL's insurance bill is equal to our transport budget for over 9 months and my friend's recent bill on a problem with his car would keep us going for months. My DB has gone through several cars (including one that blew up moments after he had left it due to a dodgy repair job). I just find them to be more of a problem and unreliability that I don't need and design my lifestyle accordingly to not use them. As not having it is my way of life, I don't find it a hassle at all.

GrrrArghZzzzYaayforall8nights Sun 30-Dec-12 11:47:29

Sugarplum - when my DD2 becomes 5 it will be cheaper for us to take a taxi to town than it will be to take a bus. Thankfully we can walk it most of the time but that does seem like madness to me. Longer distances are still fine but shorter distances certainly seem to go up quickly recently.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 11:49:49

Oh, yeah, non-drivers are a real nuisance to car drivers who might have to occasionally be considerate of other people whereas car drivers are never a nuisance at all(!)

krasnayaploshad Sun 30-Dec-12 12:32:49

I have no problem with non drivers. I do however take issue with non drivers who refuse to use public transport & insist on being driven everywhere. Yes, SIL & BIL I'm referring to you & demanding elderly FIL drives the 3hr round trip to collect you from the station when there's a perfectly good train service you could use.

I have found some non drivers can at times be unaware of the impact of their requests. For example, a friend didn't appreciate why I didn't want to drive an hour out of my way in bad weather conditions when they had the option of the train.

ivykaty44 Sun 30-Dec-12 12:57:03

i spend 60 pounds per month to just keep my car taxed and insured and for an mot cost.

mot repairs and tyres are extra

petrol I spend very little at around 50 per month

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 13:09:59

I think drivers are often pretty oblivious to the burden their driving places on others; breathing in their fumes, the physical risk their cars pose to non-drivers, the nuisance parked cars cause, the destruction of public transport etc.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 13:22:57

Offred, yep.

LadyMargolotta Sun 30-Dec-12 13:27:12

Very true offred.

I have a licence but don't drive. I wish more people were like me - then maybe our roads would be safer. Better a non driver then a dangerous driver.

I hardly ever ask people for a lift but I find that many people do offer me a lift, out of kindness. I try and offer then something in return - eg.babysitting or a meal.

hackmum Sun 30-Dec-12 14:54:43

I didn't learn to drive until my late 20s. I was just too anxious about it (am a v anxious person generally). But I felt guilty about constantly relying on lifts from people. Also got fed up with having to rely on public transport a lot of the time, as it's a pretty miserable experience. Since learning to drive I have given lots of lifts to non-drivers so at least I've paid that bit back!

BsshBossh Sun 30-Dec-12 16:44:48

It's certainly annoying when non-drivers (who can afford to drive and have no fears/medical conditions preventing them from driving) rely on drivers to take them places. One of my friends is like this. But not all non-drivers are the same OP. My non-driving DH never asks me for lifts.

So YANBU regarding your sister but YABU regarding your generalised opinion of non-drivers.

yousmell Sun 30-Dec-12 16:56:07

I think it's fine if people don't drive as long as they like public transport/bikes/using legs.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 16:59:03

Ok, should there be limits on amount of cars per household? My post earlier demonstrates how multi-car households affect the roads and parking etc. Our visiters can never park thanks to houses with 2 or 3 cars. They pay the same rent, council tax and service charge as us. Imagine all those cars in action at once.

EweBrokeMyManger Sun 30-Dec-12 17:08:32

I only drive when i absolutely have to and we were a non car owning household until recently and were not a burden on anyone with a car unless they had arranged a party or a holiday etc. somewhere completely inaccessible. If we had organised something then it would be easily reachable by public transport or walking but drivers wont consider that so you do end up having to have a lift.

We just got cabs when necessary though. Not that hard.

Autumn you must have a very small social circle of friends if you dont know any non drivers. It is very expensive to run a car. And in cities often completely pointless.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 17:22:47

Ewe, dh and I went to stay with sil and bil in rural spain a few years back. Dh and I had a huge row and I stormed off with my bag, a map, sunblock and a phrase book. I got the bus into granada, had lunch, got another bus to a tiny seaside town, walked around a bit. Got another bus into los yesos (where they were) in time for dinner. Sil was gobsmacked. I am far more resourceful than many of my driver friends.

Mintberry Sun 30-Dec-12 17:23:35

Yes, because those of us who don't drive just love dragging crying kids through the rain to the bus stop, waiting for it to inevitably arrive late and then not getting a seat. We do it just to spite you personally.

I would love to be able to drive, but a lot of us can't afford it. You sound very haughty and spoilt.

Takver Sun 30-Dec-12 17:36:02

I'm with solidgold above - the real PITA / crap people are those who can't possibly cope with public transport.

I know loads of non-drivers (and live in a rural area) and THEY never ask for lifts - its always the car owners, because their car's at the garage / their dp has it / they want to drink. Then they guilt trip ME into driving when otherwise I'd walk /go by bike or use the bus.

(Un)fortunately my car is very unreliable at starting so I can never guarantee you won't have to walk home, which I find works wonders at sorting out the people who really truly need a lift grin

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 17:41:08

I've gone through my list of friends and family and yes, there's one person who does not drive. And they feel totally restricted and hate it. And shell out shitloads of money on crap, unreliable public transport. Maybe I'm short sighted, but I have no idea why anyone who can afford to drive and run a car chooses not to. Driving makes life easier.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 17:50:00

I think driving makes people lazier. I love not driving. I love using the train or bus. Getting taxis and walking. What's more, ds loves it and hates using cars.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 18:05:08

I always find it incredible when people say they love not driving! I had so many incidents happen to me when I didn't drive, which left me cursing my lack of driving license. Like the time I had to run in the dark and the rain, whilst pushing a buggy and feeling I'll myself, to the doctors. Being heavily pregnant and forced to walk a 60 minute journey to have a blood test (no buses and unreliable taxis). Having to take 2 buses to work on what would've been a 30 min car journey. Took 1.5 hours on public transport. Etc..

ArthurPewty Sun 30-Dec-12 18:10:38

well i've been forced to stop trying to get a UK licence for medical reasons, despite having a US licence, and tbh, i dont miss it. I enjoy 5 stone less weight because i walk in the UK instead of sitting on my lard-ass and driving through banks and chemists and restaurants in the US...

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 18:23:07

Autumn - that really demonstrates the absolutely selfish attitude of some drivers, you aren't meant to drive when heavily pregnant and ill, you have to be fit to drive.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 18:24:08

But why would you live so far from the doctors if you couldn't drive. What if the car won't start/breaks down?I can understand why people drive, I accept everyone isd different. Why can't you?

ArthurPewty Sun 30-Dec-12 18:39:21

i dont miss scraping windscreens free of ice in -4C ...

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 18:58:15

Why can't I understand? Because I was an unhappy adult non driver for many many years and finally passed my test in my early thirties. It was an utter revelation. For the first time in my life, I had real freedom. The freedom to go where I wanted exactly when I wanted to. And no Ofrred, it's not absolutely selfish for a heavily pregnant woman who doesn't feel great (bad back, braxton hicks, probably caused by too much physical activity, ie.walking) to drive in a car. It's absolutely sensible My third pregnancy was the only one in which I could drive. And bloody hell, that made life far far easier. And to suggest that people should only live within close range of doctors/shops/schools etc is ridiculous. I didn't want to be restricted in that way. Most people don't want to be restricted in that way.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:00:00

and without a doubt, the overwhelming majority of non drivers are forced to rely on drivers at some point, so they might as well learn how to drive since they find people who can drive both handy and useful

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:03:03

We all choose homes that fulfil our requirents. Travel is one of them. Why is that ridiculous? Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean others ae the same. You are being v blinkered. Its almost like a former smoker denouncing the evils of nicotine, except the roles are reversed. Evangelical and ott.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:04:01

I never have. So that's that nonargument out the window.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:04:56

Apologies for spelling/grammar. Am on twatphone.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:06:50

Yes it is selfish autumn because you aren't allowed to drive when ill or heavily pregnant, especially if you are having braxton hicks, it is selfish because it is dangerous. It is pathetic to behave as though a pregnant woman can't walk and has to drive because frankly if you genuinely aren't fit to walk you aren't actually fit to drive either.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:09:05

I agree with offred. I have arthritis in my hands and legs. Driving wouldn't be safe because my hands and legs freeze. So I don't.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:12:18

Lol, Offred, what utter utter tosh you spout! I had regular Braxton Hicks when I was pregnant. Should I have hung up my car keys for 9 months?! I was perfectly fit to drive, but it was extremely bloody uncomfortable to walk. You can pretend that it's jolly good exercise and jolly good fun for a pregnant woman to walk here there and everywhere, but I found it completely grim, sorry!

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:13:32

and it's obvious you're not a driver, because if you were, you'd realize that no pregnant woman would ever get behind a wheel if she felt that she might be danger to herself or others.

cinnamonnut Sun 30-Dec-12 19:14:12

Couldn't possibly step onto one of those germ-ridden, weirdo-filled buses now, could we wink

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:15:00

You may have found it grim, but I loved it. It kept me fit and healthy and helped me lose weight again quickly.

I don't think driving when having contractions is safe either.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:15:07

I'm aware you clearly thought it was ok to drive.

nailak Sun 30-Dec-12 19:16:32

people factor in where the schools and parks are when buying/renting, it is no different factoring in where the bus stops are! lol

I would hate to live in a place where I had to drive to the nearest shops and doctors etc and couldnt just walk down the road! I like being able to quickly pop out to nearest shop. Recently I went to a country where you couldnt walk to nearest shops and parks for 2 weeks, I absolutely hated it, I could never live like that!

and when the kids get older it their teens i would like them to beable to do their stuff without me being a taxi driver!

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:16:32

And autumn, not everyone makes sweeping assumptions. Some people will drive when its not safe to. Many people, in fact.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:16:46

Trampy- braxton hicks are not contractions.
Offred, I don't expect you to get it. You don't drive. You don't know.

nailak Sun 30-Dec-12 19:17:30

and also in London and big cities it is not that big of a deal, I live in a big city because I like the convenience of everything close by!

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:17:37

Why is it important to be a driver? Jeez... I would have thought it was obvious before now that I'm not a driver... Duh...

This is exactly my problem with a lot of drivers... "But it's easier.... Waaaah!" No, people absolutely should not drive when they are not fit to drive, including when they are ill or having braxton hicks... Can you not understand that things being easier for the very first pregnant woman in the world is not a reason to drive irresponsibly?

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:18:46

Nailak, exactly. We won't move further out because its not practical. A family of 6 wouldn't move into a 2 bed house, why would a nondriver live an hour from the nearest dr/shop/school?

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:20:11

listen Offred, every single driver in the history of the world has driven when they have some sort of illness- a headache, a tummy upset, a cold, braxton hicks, bad back etc..drivers are perfectly capable of deciding whether they are fit enough to drive or not. It is NOT illegal to drive if you are unwell! If that was true, 100% of all drivers have broken the law.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:20:27

I'm sorry, my doc said that bh was the womb contracting... Maybe he was wrong. Mine certainly stopped me in my tracks.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:20:56

and Offred, I can guarantte you 100% that the poorly paid bus and train drivers you rely on have also driven when unwell.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:21:36

Ah, well that's alright then!

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:22:44

Not when heavily pregnant.

And what does pay have to do with the fish?

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:22:51

Trampy, do you really think I'd have driven a car if I was in distracting pain which made it difficult for me to pay attention to the road? No. Of course not.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:24:01

I don't rely on buses, I cycle but thanks anyway.

I am pretty glad I don't feel it is ok to put other people at risk for my convenience btw. Many people do feel that about cars to the point it is not socially acceptable to behave responsibly about cars and driving. I agree probably 99% of drivers have the same entitled attitude about the importance of their convenience.

It is illegal to drive when you are so ill you would not be able to walk which is what you were saying "waaaah I was ill/pregnant and couldn't walk" well if you can't walk, you aren't fit to drive. Full stop. Yes a lot of tummy bugs/braxton hicks/headaches make people unfit to drive and just because people commonly drive anyway it doesn't make it legal or safe...

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:24:18

but let's all turn this into a thread about how very scary and dangerous cars are, whilst we continue to rely on drivers, albeit train, plane and taxi drivers.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:25:07

That is such bollocks Offred. My cousin is disabled. She can't walk. But she is allowed to drive a car.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:27:34

We're not doing that. You are by justifying your decision to drive while having bh. And insisting that nondrivers are lying about not caring and missing out. I trust taxi drivers, bus driver and train drivers. They are professionals. You are not.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:27:39

What has disability got to do with anything? :/ weird...

I don't use planes or buses or rely on drivers. When my husband is home he often drives us all places but equally we often cycle, just because he is driving doesn't mean I'm relying on him anymore than he's relying on me when we cycle.

chris481 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:27:58

I used to be bemused at the concept of an adult who couldn't drive, or swim, or was a graduate but claimed they couldn't do maths.

In the country where I grew up, public transport and even taxis weren't an option. If you couldn't walk/bicycle/motorcycle/drive or get a lift to where you wanted to go, you didn't go. I don't recall ever coming across an adult who couldn't drive. (I guess those with epilepsy/whatever crossed their fingers and drove anyway. Officialdom probably wasn't organised enough to prevent them.)

Every school, both state and private, had at a minimum a half-Olympic size pool. I recall earning life-saving badges in the one at my free state primary. That was voluntary, and my parents paid for a handful of lessons at the municipal pool that were all I needed to make me drown-proof. There was compulsory swimming of lengths in both primary and secondary PE lessons. I am bemused whenever I hear news reports of someone in the UK drowning in a canal or river. I can understand drowning in the sea where the current can keep you away from the shore, but it requires a conscious effort to imagine how someone could drown in fresh water.

I hear educated and successful people in the UK not so much admit as boast that they can't do maths. The system where I grew up was that maths was a compulsory high school subject and I think that without a C in maths no university would admit you as a student. (My father, a working-class Englishman who left school at 14, passed the exams needed for divinity degree, but was awarded a diploma and not a degree because his school record didn't qualify him to be a university entrant. He would, among other things, have needed that C in maths.)

I now live in London, so can perfectly understand living without a car. I could easily do it myself.

As a relatively well-off adult, I don't have easy access to a swimming pool for doing lengths, and I've noticed that not only does not every school have one, but, having lived here for 30 years, the climate isn't exactly conducive to out-door pools. (Though having flown out of London City airport over North London a few times, I was shocked to find there are parts of the capital where every house seems to have an out-door pool. From the air it looks like lots of people think they are in Australia or California.) So, if I make a conscious effort, I can sort of grasp the concept of an adult who can't swim.

The maths thing is pure bollocks though. People don't do maths because the system (school and presumably university) allows them not to.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:30:21

It isn't me who is saying drivers are scary btw it is you when you insist all drivers drive when they aren't fit.

Fact is braxton hicks is not a disability and in that specific situation, or if you are ill, and those things mean you can't walk then you are too ill to drive. That's what you said, you were too ill to walk and your braxton hicks prevented you walking.

PenelopePipPop Sun 30-Dec-12 19:32:29

YABU because by definition you are only going to notice the non-drivers who impose on you. Nothing wrong with getting annoyed by people who impose on you, but the annoying behaviour they exhibit is imposing on you, not failing to drive. It would be just as annoying if they never took their turn to cook, clear the table or wash up.

I have epilepsy. Haven't driven for years. It is a point of honour for me not to accept lifts from people (mainly because of people with shitty horrible attitudes like yours putting me off - I get it a lot in real life too) and my 2 year old and I get around perfectly fine in our very rural area with our feet and the occasional bus or train thrown in. Much safer, better for our health and keeps us away from cunty car drivers with a chip on their shoulder.

Or perhaps some of you are not cunts? I'll make an exception for all the car drivers on this thread who have said nice things. The rest of you though...

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:32:45

it goes back to the old days, when husbands drove their wives everywhere and was often used as a form of control; knowing where the little woman was and when she'd be back. I don't know a single independent woman, with the means to afford a car, who would choose not to. Pushing that -'oooohhh, cars are so scary and dangerous and drivers are so nasty and horrid' argument doesn't convince anyone.

LineRunner Sun 30-Dec-12 19:32:46

The maths thing is pure bollocks though. People don't do maths because the system (school and presumably university) allows them not to.

I would love a thread on this! (Nearly went a bit crazy making sure DD got a C in Maths this year.)

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:33:37

Chris- people drown in rivers because of currents and canals because the sides are high and there is often no way to get out by yourself.

Today I took two trains and a taxi both ways to visit my sister for a couple of hours. My Dh is ill so I had my 3 children aged 4, 6 and 8 with me. He was meant to be driving I can't. I didn't want to let the children or my sister down, I didn't expect anyone else to drive us.

Am I still rubbish cos I have no medical reason for not being able to drive? I am capable of taking the children on daytrips and on holiday without a car as well. smile

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:35:38

Autumn, that's utter bollocks.

Why do you find it so hard to accept that other people feel differently to you? Its odd. Not to mention arrogant.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:35:46

And also because of alcohol!

If you've ever done any river swimming you'd understand how strong currents can be even in placid looking rivers. I'm quite a strong swimmer and also quite fit and it is extremely difficult to swim against a current/to a place where you can get out and you often get cut by hidden rocks without realising because of the temp of the water.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:36:16

that's fine bigmouth, if you're happy to do that.
I did similar journeys before I passed my driving test and they drove me absolutely mad. But if you don't mind it, there's no problem. I just struggle to understand how you wouldn't want something which would make life easier and better?

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:36:56

what is 'bollocks' Trampy?

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:37:15

Bigmouth, we go everywhere on the train, ds loves it. Our holiday/day out starts at the station.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:38:27

it goes back to the old days, when husbands drove their wives everywhere and was often used as a form of control; knowing where the little woman was and when she'd be back. I don't know a single independent woman, with the means to afford a car, who would choose not to.

Utter bollocks.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:39:16

we travel to the North frequently. Combined train fares for us all comes to roughly £200. The same trip costs about £80 in diesel, for a trip which is faster and door to door.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:39:24

Yep, I don't go out unless my husband drives me(!) that's because it is absolutely impossible to get around without a car(!) Nevermind that 99% of the journeys I make are by bike!

It is you autumn who is making driver out to be scary by insisting they all drive when they are medically unfit and this is ok because everyone does it...

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:41:19

Do you have a railcard? Return for 3 of us to london from shropshire is £30.

Just accept, some people are happy without cars. Cars are not necessary.

autumnlights12 Sun 30-Dec-12 19:41:22

*it goes back to the old days, when husbands drove their wives everywhere and was often used as a form of control; knowing where the little woman was and when she'd be back. I don't know a single independent woman, with the means to afford a car, who would choose not to.

Utter bollocks*

No.
Utterly true.
I had Aunts who behaved like this. I knew lots of non driving women in my childhood. Sadly it wasn't always seen as necessary for 'her indoors' to drive. You can call it bollocks, but doesn't make it any less true.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:41:40

And which is it? Drivers are terribly put upon by non-drivers OR non-drivers are women oppressed by the patriarchy? I'm putting on my dh or I'm controlled by him? Which?

You've never met me then autumn grin

I will admit that there was a time, when the DC were very little, that I thought that me being able to drive would make life easier. However, at that time, I could not afford to run a car.

We are now a two car family (DH & DS1). As the main earner in the household, you could say I have paid for both the cars yet I absolutely have no intention of learning to drive. I hate cars.

If I did learn to drive, we would need another car as both DH & DS need theirs for work. The car would then sit on the drive all week as I work in the city centre and I am not going to pay parking fees and sit in a traffic jam when there is public transport. I would not use the car if I was going out for a drink. I hate shopping. I'm just not convinced that I would make much use of a car at all.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:42:41

That's the thing btw autumn, not everyone sees their own convenience as the single most important factor in decisions they make about their lives.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:44:03

It may be true for you and some other women. Not for everyone though, not for me (dh doesn't drive) not for offred, nor the others on here who are happy to not drive. You really are so blinkered!

An abusive man is an abusive man. He will be abusive whether you can drive or not.

cantspel Sun 30-Dec-12 19:46:20

My husband has never driven and he is now in his 50's. When we met he was living in central london and had no need to drive.
I do drive and did when we met but he has still never learnt. i think it is 50% lazyness and 50% not having the confidence. But it is a pain that he can never do his share of the driving, offer me a lift or pick me up if i want to go on the lash without him. My son plays alot of sport and you always have 25% of players who would not be able to play if drivers like me were not willing to offer lifts as it is not possible to get a bus at 7.30 in the morning to some random field the otherside of the county.
Driving is a life skill and you do limit your choices and put yourself at the mercy of others generosity if you cant drive.

nailak Sun 30-Dec-12 19:47:33

trampy i dont think you know a wide range of people then!

my mum was a single parent, worked as a teacher, very much independent as who would she depend on! lol we managed without a car, for the past 25 years she has been taking the bus and train to work and it works out the same time as a car journey would anyway!

we did all shopping, going to activities, visiting etc by bus. I grew up used to this lifestyle and therefore dont find it weird.

Your experiences may be different, but it doesnt mean because you havent experienced something (like an independent women who doesnt drive even though she could) that it is not common, just you havent seen it or you havent realise you have seen it. Obviously you judge people's lifestyles and if they are "independent" or not and their choices. So your view is obviously not objective.

Brodicea Sun 30-Dec-12 19:50:03

I never learned to drive because my mum, and then I, could never afford it.

I think it's really narrow minded to assume you are some kind of lazy skank for not learning - it is like £20 a lesson where I live!

Anyway, I never ask for lifts, I always get the bus or the train - why not suggest that to your errant kin?

amillionyears Sun 30-Dec-12 19:50:24

A lot of these things even out in life.
When the children were littler, I used to be the main car driver of their friends groups. But they did more of the hostessing.
Worked out well.

TrampyPants Sun 30-Dec-12 19:50:57

Nail, I think you mean autumn grin

Cant I really don't think driving is a life skill. Being able to cook is a life skill. Being able to change a plug is a life skill. Driving is not. Imagine if driving was compulsary, imagine the mess, the roads, the parking, the accidents, the cost...

dickiedavisthunderthighs Sun 30-Dec-12 19:51:51

I can drive but I live in London so have no need for a car. I have the means but no desire to own my own, what would be the point?
But it is a very valuable life skill and I love the fact that I can use any number of 'car for a day' rental schemes when having a car is far easier than getting a train (and often cheaper).
For me it means freedom and I do feel a bit sorry for people who don't have that skill because it does make life a lot easier.

Offred Sun 30-Dec-12 19:54:24

I don't see why the sport thing is the non-driver's problem though, things should not be organised completely around cars because not everybody can drive, that is just a fact. It is pretty inconsiderate to the many many people who can't drive to make things only accessible by car. My ds used to play football and most of his fixtures were accessible by public transport though. In fact he played many more matches than lots of the team despite being totally crap because we always were available for matches unlike other people who for some reason never seemed to be able to commit to the matches.