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to ask you why you would vote Tory?

(213 Posts)
Dromedary Fri 21-Dec-12 00:04:15

I have a nasty feeling that if an election were held now the Tories might get in again.
Lots of you out there support the Tories.
Some of the rest of us find that very hard to understand.
Can you explain your reasoning for us? I for one promise not to bash you for your views on this thread (but may do so on other threads).

WildThongonthesparklytree Fri 21-Dec-12 00:07:58

Gordon Brown
Tony Blair
Ed Miliband

Anonymumous Fri 21-Dec-12 00:09:20

I can assure you that lots of us who vote Tory find it very hard to understand why anybody would ever support Labour. hmm

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 21-Dec-12 00:12:57

^^ This

smilingismyfavourite Fri 21-Dec-12 00:13:30

YANBU and I have not a single idea either so looking forward to reading some proper reasoned responses.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 21-Dec-12 00:14:01

They're negative reasons. What are the positive reasons for supporting the Tories?

Well mainly because I agree with most if their policies and what they are trying to achieve

And I fancy David Cameron

<< ok the last bits a lie>>>

AloeSailor Fri 21-Dec-12 00:20:32

Because you were a selfish bastard who thinks the workhouse is too good for the poor?

larks35 Fri 21-Dec-12 00:20:37

Never have, never will but often do find it hard to argue with some of my tory voting friends. For me, it is more about ideology, for them it seems to be about financial policy, even though most of us are worse off under our current government.

I actually have a lot of respect for Gordon Brown but his face didn't fit and he was handed a very poisened chalice. I never had much faith in Blair and think he was probably the worse thing that has happened to the Labour party. Such a shame that John Smith died when he did, things could have been so different if he hadn't sad.

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Fri 21-Dec-12 00:22:03

I wouldn't. But but but: I can't vote Labour after the war. I can't vote lib dem because they are principle-dumping lap-dogs. And I can't vote SNP (am in Scotland) because I'm not a Nat. So I'm really not sure what I'm going to do at the next election.

Or aloe maybe you are sick of working your bollocks off and having no time with your kids when there are a large amount of work shy bastards who have everything handed to them on a plate ?

I know not everyone on benefits Is on the fiddle but I know many people who simply have just never seen work as an option

Income support for years and churning out just enough kids to avoid having to seek or god forbid actually do some work

And they have no worries, they aren't cold and unable to afford to put the heating on , they aren't meeting themselves coming back somewhere between a 12 hour shift, school runs , cooking, cleaning, shopping etc

Cus they can sit in their lazy fucking arses all day as still get ' their money'

AudrinaWhiteChristmasAdare Fri 21-Dec-12 00:47:25

I might vote for them if they weren't the biggest scroungers and entitled wankers going. And if they didn't continually go on about people striving not skiving when their obscenely privileged existence is due to inherited wealth and historical tax-dodging

I've never voted Tory before for this reason.

Anonymumous Fri 21-Dec-12 00:48:56

1. They're not sanctimonious little bastards who resent anybody who dares to work hard and makes more money than they do.

Hang on, is that a negative reason? I'll try again...

2. They're not completely shit at running the economy and don't tend to bankrupt the country every time they get into power.

Is that a negative reason? Hmmm... not sure...

3. They tend not to try to buy the electorate with pointless, expensive bribes like EMA and Child Trust Funds.

Oh no, hang on, that's another negative reason, isn't it?

4. How about the fact that they at least pay lip service to the idea of personal responsibility, hard work, morals and the importance of family, and these things are important to those of us who were brought up with those values?

5. How about not wanting every aspect of our lives to be controlled by the State?

6. How about wanting to preserve our country's ancient traditions instead of seeing them torn apart in the name of 'progress'?

7. How about not being a gullible prat who falls for all the bollocks about the Tories being the "Nasty Party" and assuming that voting for a left-wing party will therefore automatically make us "Nice"?

Jinsei Fri 21-Dec-12 00:49:33

Yes, YABU to ask because I would never dream of voting Tory. YANBU to wonder why anyone else would!

SomersetONeil Fri 21-Dec-12 00:52:29

Well, Labour have all the answers, don't they? hmm

I thought I was a dyed-in-the-wool leftie... Until the last election, when I couldn't bring useful to vote Labour again. Actually, that happened the election before as well so I voted Lib Dem. That seemed pointless this time around (and was!) so I voted Tory.

OP - do you think Labour was the best option at the last election? If so, care to elucidate why?

Nice post anon

youngermother1 Fri 21-Dec-12 00:57:19

Because the Labour party always promises and spends money that isn't available - ie borrowed and the debt passed onto the next generation. This is what is coming home to roost.
This happened in the 1970's, when the Labour government went to the IMF because no-one else would lend to us and the alternative was complete social breakdown like what is happening in Greece. The country then was a disaster and there had been a policy of managed decline for 20 years (admittedly both Labour and Conservative).
I know this is unpopular, but the Thatcher government turned this country around and her policy of free market economics changed the game and was copied around the world.
Blair's government took a well functioning economy and, because of their 1997 election pledge, copied Conservative spending policies for 5 years and all was ok, then in 2001, they went mad and decided to deliberately make everyone a recipient of state benefits so they would never vote against them.
During the biggest boom in recent history, directly linked to cheap Chinese goods, they borrowed massively and beggared the country, with the result that some parts of the country have over 70% of the earnings from the public sector, which is more than the Russian communists managed.
The Labour party runs based on what they want to be the truth, ie people don't mind sharing wealth and everyone does their best for the country. The Conservatives govern as is, ie we are all reasonable selfish and will do what is best for us. Thus if you tax rich people too much, they will work less and earn less, so overall less tax (the laffer curve.
As Arnie said, Father Christmas is where your children ask for presents and make the parents pay, the deficit is where the parents ask the government for presents and make the children pay.

HollyBerryBush Fri 21-Dec-12 00:59:53

My vote is between me and the ballot box, seeing as we live in a democracy I don't have to justify my vote.

EuroShagmore Fri 21-Dec-12 01:04:35

Because labour put Britain into this economic mess (it's a global recession but Britain is in more trouble than most) and I don't trust them to get us out of it in a sustainable way. The Tories inherited a pile of shit and are doing something to try to dig us out of it (they are not always getting it right but they are moving things in the right direction).

Startail Fri 21-Dec-12 01:09:17

shear self interest,

As a middle class, SAHM with a DH who works for a large multi national, I'd be fucking stupid not to.

JustCallMeDavesHorse Fri 21-Dec-12 01:11:46

Itching to post.... . Startail I think I'm with you!

JustCallMeDavesHorse Fri 21-Dec-12 01:12:25

And euroshagmore

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 01:14:43

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JustCallMeDavesHorse Fri 21-Dec-12 01:15:27

Youngermother, it's a long postsmile think I'm there

JoanByers Fri 21-Dec-12 01:16:57

To piss off all the lefty scum.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 01:17:05

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AudrinaWhiteChristmasAdare Fri 21-Dec-12 01:18:03

Sheer self-interest?

If you have a solid insurance policy which would prevent DH fucking off and leaving you and the DC reliant on benefits if he moves in with a potential OW and quits his job then fair play to you. Not many SAHMs do.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 01:19:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LadyBeagleBaublesandBells Fri 21-Dec-12 01:29:12

If you don't understand why any caring people, who believe that we all have to look out for each other will never vote for you, then that's your choice.
I'm out of here though. I'm Scottish, and as the saying goes, we've more pandas up here than Tory Mps.
And long may it continue.

youngermother1 Fri 21-Dec-12 01:35:32

Lady

Scottish independence may scare you then.

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 05:49:27

This is a bit trolly, just an excuse to patronise the poor little thickos who don't agree with left wing views. I don't believe the op is remotely interested in anything other than a hand rubbing, gleeful piss take fest and you lot are mad to fuel it. This thread is no more genuine than the "everyone hates me cos I'm rich" thread.

letsgomaths Fri 21-Dec-12 06:58:31

Why would I vote Tory? There's a difference between conservative values (small c) and The Conservatives.

When we go into the ballot box, we have to choose between:
1. Self-interested professional liars
2. Self-interested professional liars
3. Self-interested professional liars

And sadly by not voting, we move a step closer to: Self-interested professional liars with even less chance of being kicked out.

wildirishrose Fri 21-Dec-12 07:24:46

Why on earth would anyone vote Labour?

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 07:50:06

Why would you vote for any of them? There is so little in it, only the extremists on each side think there is.
Why wouldn't I vote Labour? I come from an extreme hard left family. My parents only believe something if they read it in the Guardian and spout the same old things (Anne Widdicombe hates women etc) and genuinely believe that anyone who isn't a socialist is in need of education and support for their"ignorance". They have a cleaner and a gardener who they pay cash in hand, have a lovely country home complete with paddock and horses and a holiday home in Italy and BUPA. I am not saying that all socialists are hypocrites but I think a lot of the wealthy ones are.

Startail Fri 21-Dec-12 08:54:47

Honestly I doubt the benefits for single mothers would be much better under labour.

The country has no money!

I'm hardly going to make my and DCs present worse (by voting for a party of high taxes) on the exceptionally tiny chance that another woman put up with my eccentric geek.

Anyhow, I'm old fashioned enough to believe marriage means something!

WeWilsonAMerryChristmas Fri 21-Dec-12 08:55:44

decided to deliberately make everyone a recipient of state benefits

I must have missed that memo younger. I'm not in receipt of benefits and apart from Child Benefit I don't know that many people who are.

AudrinaWhiteChristmasAdare Fri 21-Dec-12 08:57:27

"exceptionally tiny chance" grin

I've got one like that but I think he's wonderful as well

<waves Christmas cheer around thread>

Lonecatwithkitten Fri 21-Dec-12 08:59:43

I can be not as straightforward as just voting Tory.
Our previous MP was a liberal he was useless he didn't reply to letters or e-mails. He spent a lot of time in Europe though he wasn't and MEP.
Our Current Tory MP is Fab he always replys to letters or e-mails even if it is just to direct you to the correct person. He has become active in the part of government that directly affects our area.
I will vote for him even if he joins the monster raving looney party as he is the right man for us.

wordfactory Fri 21-Dec-12 09:00:30

I would never vote tory, butI think the left's lack of imagination to understand why anyone might, is one of their major major failings...

KnittingChristmas Fri 21-Dec-12 09:05:23

Sheer self interest is the reason the vast majority of Tory voters vote the way they do.

wordfactory Fri 21-Dec-12 09:06:47

knitting it really really isnt.

If you'd done any door step campaigning, you'd understand this.

wildirishrose Fri 21-Dec-12 09:07:31

The poor vote labour and the rich vote Tory, isn't that how it works?

Ephiny Fri 21-Dec-12 09:07:55

I suppose because my personal political views tend towards the economically right-wing/libertarian, and of the mainstream parties in the UK the Conservatives seem the most aligned with that viewpoint (which is not to say I agree 100% with all of their policies).

Isn't that basically why anyone votes for any party, because they seem like the best match for their views and values?

I'm not sure why that is difficult to understand confused.

BridgetBidet Fri 21-Dec-12 09:08:25

I really, really want to vote for Labour. But if they get in they will let immigration go bonkers again to push up house prices and suppress wages. I think immigration has been brilliant for this country but I really think we need to chill out about it for a bit. I don't think Labour get that. If they would get it together on that issue I think they would piss all over the competition.

BridgetBidet Fri 21-Dec-12 09:11:08

WildIrishRose - I am 'working poor'. I think the Tories are twats apart from Ian Duncan Smith. He does actually have ideas about making the working poor better off but the rest of the tories are just c**

TheSecondComing Fri 21-Dec-12 09:12:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

I'm with Anon - Labour buggered up the economy in the 1970s and did the same in the 2000s. Labour's close ties with the unions who caused enormous problems in the 1970s also screwed them in 1979. At the end of the day, the economy is a HUGE issue when it comes to elections.

Now, I am not saying that the Tories have the answer for everything. There have been 4 general elections since I was 18 and I have voted for them once, but my vote has always been based on local issues.

I find it astonishing that Millipede has been leader for as long as he has yet we still don't seem to hear any genuine policies from Labour. It's all "wait for the next election". No, we're in a mess and we need to hear from you now about what you think and believe in and would do.

wordfactory Fri 21-Dec-12 09:16:37

voice I think the Labour Party took the view that they would sit back and let the Tories make themselves unpopular...but I htink it's been a stupid and arrogant strategy.

They should be out there putting forward cogent alternatives.

JennyPiccolo Fri 21-Dec-12 09:16:50

I wouldn't vote Tory. Don't really like labour either. Thank god there's a credible alternative in Scotland.

WinkyWinkola Fri 21-Dec-12 09:17:26

Voice, triple dip recession means a pretty good buggering up of the economy to my mind.

wordfactory Fri 21-Dec-12 09:19:37

bridget I think the Labour Party have finally understood the mistakes they've made vis a vis immigration and how strongly people feel.

It's easy to be all inclusive and multi-culti in Primorose Hill. When the only real experience you have of multi-culture is positive and you've been brought up to believe that all and any nay sayers are racist...

I do think Labour are finally stepping out of their bubble on this. Milliband gave a good speech on it and theparty faithful seem to be going along with him.

cinnamonnut Fri 21-Dec-12 09:20:42

This is stupid - as if everyone who votes Conservative is some kind of evil bastard and all Labour voters are angels sent from above.

Give me strength.

cinnamonnut Fri 21-Dec-12 09:22:18

No, wildirishrose, it isn't any more.

TeamBacon Fri 21-Dec-12 09:23:22

Well I used to vote for them because I thought that you could get by in life as long as you work hard and aren't a skiving scrounger. (Views very much influenced by my parents growing up).

I've since learned a lot more about politics, my views have changed (for the better I think!), and they simply aren't compatible with Tory politics.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 09:24:16

Because they waste less of my money than the only other viable alternative.

SantaWearsGreen Fri 21-Dec-12 09:25:49

What is funny is people feel they have no other choice but to vote for one of the big 3. There are other parties you know.. PLEASE not UKIP or BNP. Green party though, I vote them. If more people stopped viewing the more independent parties as a 'wasted vote' and voted for them they might have a chance.

If I ever stooped to vote tory I would know my life was over and would expect DH to shoot me. Extreme but I am NOT a righty.. Just no (doesn't seem correct to go into reasons why..but just no).

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 09:27:43

Because... negatively.... I've seen quite a few governments come and go and the one thing every left-wing government has had in common is that their well-meant ideologies leave the place in a massive mess that the incoming administration has to then clean up. Puts the new team in the role of the publican telling everyone the party's over and it's time to go home... not popular but necessary.

And... positively... because I'm from a working class background and I believe everyone should be given the opportunities to advance through a secure society with a good education system and a lively commercial environment rather than be trapped by heavy-handed state intervention into staying put where they start out. The left is far too keen to keep everyone down.

standsonshiftingsands Fri 21-Dec-12 09:30:34

I had lot of respect for Gordon Brown too. He just couldn't handle that politics is now a media circus. He's better off out of it.

Lots of voters feel disenfranchised now. Those of the right of the Tory party and those of the left of the Labour party - its all a bit of mish mash now.

Startail said it all in one on the first page.

Self Interest.

That's why people vote for Tories.

I'm hardly going to vote for them when i work for a council they hate, and having just come out of a lot of massive Cuts where many had to reapply for their own jobs, we now face a 1 in 8 chance of losing our jobs in the new year.
But never mind Osbourne has a magic wand and is going to miraculously find all the 'scroungers' full time work along with all the people being made redundant.

'How about the fact that they at least pay lip service to the idea of personal responsibility, hard work, morals and the importance of family, and these things are important to those of us who were brought up with those values? ' - what a load of bloody bollocks. And Socialists don't acre about any of those things then? Of course they do. I was brought up with all those things. How incredibly sneery and patronising.
Tories just don't give a shit about anyone else. If you work your arse off for low pay and struggle to keep your head above water or you've fallen on hard times sod you. I'm alright Jack.

I sincerely hope some of you W.I. women in your leafy idyllic villages in middle England who vote Tory don't suddenly have a husband who loses his well paid job and have to face the prospect of finding a job yourself! Then maybe you'll face reality.

I'm ranting now grin

Ephiny Fri 21-Dec-12 09:35:01

I agree with Cogito.

This is the sort of thing I've tried to explain on similar threads in the past -- that things are complicated, well-intentioned initiatives can often have unintended effects, and the nice fluffy lets-help-the-poor-people policies are not necessarily always the best thing for society (or indeed for the people they're intended to help) in the long term. Even if they make the left-wing voter feel better about themselves.

And voting Conservative or having right-wing leanings does not mean that a person is selfish, or that they don't care about others, or about the importance of a fair and just society for all. It just means they disagree with the leftist/socialist ways of getting there.

Scottish independence may scare you then.

Scottish independence scares me ... fractionally less than remaining under Tory rule though.

dreamingofsun Fri 21-Dec-12 09:35:09

i look at greece and other countries where the gov has spent beyond its means and shudder at what they are now having to put up with. And i thank the fact that we now have a government thats trying to sort our finances out and live within our means.

i think if people can work they should try and work and find a job. Not expect me to cough up money so they can do nothing (I know all unemployed people aren't workshy - but some are)

i disliked the hypocracy of the last gov - encouraging imigration because it meant more votes. buying votes with handouts and making people reliant on the state.

i disliked the fact that schools didn't improve during the last gov.

juneau Fri 21-Dec-12 09:35:54

Anyone who thinks voting Labour next time will roll back any of the changes the Conservatives have implemented are sadly deluded. Labour have made it quite clear that they're delighted the Conservatives are doing all the hard work and getting the country back on track. They've made no commitment to reinstate benefits or change the policies back, because they know as well as anyone that this country cannot afford to have a whole section of society who believe that a life lived on benefits is their right.

Fortunately, there are many people out there who believe that the vast majority of people of working age and able body should be self-supporting most of the time. The welfare state should be there to catch people if they fall, but it should be a bridge back into work and self-sufficiency, not a lifestyle choice to opt out and be supported by other, working people.

Nancy66 Fri 21-Dec-12 09:36:53

No idea who I would vote for.

Some of the Tory policies terrify me, some i think are harsh but necessary.

Lib Dems seem totally ineffective and clueless and i have no confidence in Labour.

RubberDuck Fri 21-Dec-12 09:37:32

Because all the parties are shitheads, but our local MP is actually pretty good, works hard for the community and always makes time to listen and respond (even if sometimes he doesn't agree with your point of view). He just happens to be Tory.

Our old Labour MP was a complete waste of space.

'I believe everyone should be given the opportunities to advance through a secure society with a good education system ' - so do I.

But they are making it increasingly hard for bright working class kids to do that aren't they? Many are now scared off by the prospect of crippling debt before they have even stepped a rung on the Housing ladder.

I could never vote Tory on Education, even if i could be persuaded on other policies.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 09:39:50

The tories have brainwashed people to think that everyone on benefits is lazy and leaves the curtains shut while the strivers go out to work. And it's worked - some people believe this and there is evidence of it upthread.

In reality nobody on benefits is getting enough money to cover more than they really need. And some people have had rubbish opportunities and therefore cannot get a job even if they wanted to.

The propaganda they peddle is shameful. And people like David Cameron have no idea what it is like to really strive for something, I'll bet. Ironic really.

LimeLeafLizard Fri 21-Dec-12 09:41:10

I think letsgomaths has it about right! Politicians generally are self serving and short sighted.

I don't feel any political party in the UK represents my views. I have voted labour 3x and tory 1x and each time it was mainly a negative vote - i.e. because I disliked the others more. I have considered voting green but after reading their blurb it struck me as wildly unrealistic.

The main thing that puts me off labour is their inability to run the economy without going bankrupt.
The main thing that puts me off the tories are their right wing social policies.

I wonder if the US democrats are closer to where I would be?

MorrisZapp Fri 21-Dec-12 09:41:13

I'm not a fan of any of them these days. But I think the main problem is that people expect too much of government in general. It's so easy to point out what any gvt is doing wrong, but considerably harder to say exactly how it could be done better.

Is there any time or place, geographically or historically, where the government were really good, and the citizens were all happy with their lot?

Vagaceratops Fri 21-Dec-12 09:41:13

I have no idea who I will vote for as I have no confidence in Labour.

All I know is I would not vote for UKIP/BNP

Nancy66 Fri 21-Dec-12 09:42:08

Here is the current state affairs:

This country hands out more in benefits than it collects in taxes.

....so something has to give right?

niceguy2 Fri 21-Dec-12 09:42:26

I agree with Cogito. The Tories end up as the nasty party because every time Labour get into power they spend all the money and leave behind them a huge mess. Kind of like the dad who spends all the family's money then vanishes leaving mum to pick up the pieces.

Those who are now moaning should really be asking themselves how after 13 years of Labour rule, most of which was a big economic boom that all they left us with was a small note saying there was no money left?

As I've said before, this is akin to the kids blaming mum for trying to fix the financial mess that dad got them all into by overspending on the credit cards. And crying because they no longer can have xbox games each month and have to eat Tesco value instead of Waitrose.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 09:45:20

Labour have said they would not be able to reverse the changes.I don't think that is the point. The main difference is that the labour party have never tried to be divisive and peddle a notion that poor and disabled people are scroungers.

foreverondiet Fri 21-Dec-12 09:46:40

Because Labour have shown they aren't responsible enough to run the country as each time in power they spent more than there was.

As I agree with Conservative concept of personal responsibility.

cinnamonnut Fri 21-Dec-12 09:46:47

Ephiny is right.

LittleFrieda Fri 21-Dec-12 09:48:08

I also get the impression the Tories are growing in popularity.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 09:48:53

'Bright working class kids' are mostly hampered these days by the catchment system which means their education is only as good as their local school. It's why the old grammar system was so popular with the working class... you could get out of the area. Social mobility went down under Labour rather than up which is a betrayal. Not advocating a return to selective grammars but I'm more confident that Tory policies can elevate standards across the board. `

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Fri 21-Dec-12 09:49:27

Labour are a shambles who took us into an illegal war to appease a crazy American president. Lib-Dems are a shambles who wouldn't know a principle if it bit them on the arse. Tories are using the economy as an excuse to dismantle the NHS and the welfare state for ideological reasons and entrench privilege. Not sure how anyone on the liberal left decides who to vote for.

I cannot see myself voting Lib-Dem ever again as main reason I used to was that they would be good in a coalition in the event of a hung parliament (how wrong I was). I am not ready to vote Labour either; I find Ed Miliband an unconvincing leader and many of the henchmen of New Labour are still in prominent roles. I also dislike some of Miliband's rhetoric on immigration. I won't vote conservative as they are self-serving bastards who are wrecking what was great about the country since the Second World War. At the same time they are entrenching privilege. I believe in strong public services and social mobility this isn't the Tories. So what to do...?

pugsandseals Fri 21-Dec-12 09:49:32

because unlike the left, they believe that there is not a bottomless pit of money to delve in to. They are also able to provide a bit of social mobility (& I wish they would have the balls to go back to a grammar system which would help more than anything). I don't think they have all the answers, but their policies tend to be for the long term good of the country rather than just to win the next election.

EnjoyResponsibly Fri 21-Dec-12 09:50:09

Cinnamonut I think you'll find it's usually "evil bastard cunts" because that's the level this sort of debate usualy sinks to within 3 pages.

There are many reasons I am a Conservative voter. In addition I don't lash out with abuse at people who disagree with me and vote Labour or LibDem.

Having said that, as a Conservative voter I expect results and the party must, must realise they have to address the significant trouble the country is in if they expect re-election.

It isn't enough to investigate long term benefit recipients to reduce welfare costs without also addressing the massive loopholes that enable the Starbucks etc and anyone that can afford a wily accountant to avoid paying tax. These companies will not stop trading in the UK if they are made to pay so get some balls although not Ed and sort it out.

WinkyWinkola Fri 21-Dec-12 09:50:39

The Tories also voted for the war.

There is apparently a bottomless pit of money to lob at Comet, spend on Libya etc.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 09:54:54

"the labour party have never tried to be divisive and peddle a notion that poor and disabled people are scroungers."

The Labour party created an overblown welfare system that led to others seeing claimants - rightly or wrongly - as being on a good touch. Resentment and accusations of scrounging was therefore created at grass roots level without any intervention.

Vagaceratops Fri 21-Dec-12 09:58:14

You begrudge the hard working people at Comet their redundancy pay?

WinkyWinkola Fri 21-Dec-12 10:00:28

I don't begrudge them redundancy pay at all. Comet does! The glorious private sector needs bailing out YET AGAIN.

Ephiny Fri 21-Dec-12 10:05:13

Indeed, and a lot of the resentment towards supposed benefit scroungers and perceived unfair advantages for immigrants, comes from poorer and working-class people. I think Labour lost a lot of votes in the last election by not addressing these concerns (which were grievances that people genuinely felt, rightly or wrongly) and engaging with them properly, rather than just assuming they must be the views of ignorant racist bigots.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:07:55

I disagree Cogito - lots of disabled people have always been incapable of working - how thick would anyone have to be 'at grass roots level' not to be able to comprehend that?? There has been a very obvious campaign by the Tories ever since the start of this coalition to divide and segregate people and to spread lies about poor and disabled people.

Since when was it ever acceptable to call disabled people and their carers scroungers?

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 21-Dec-12 10:11:08

YANBU

I think they respond to a very primitive instinct to protect yourself and your own. The problem is we have since developed language skills, social responsibility, and empathy. Voting tory gives you licence to ignore any feelings of guilt if you see anyone in a worse position than yourself, because they put themselves in that position due to lazy feckless behavior. That way you can resent being taxed enough to create a culture of acceptability for tax evasion for those high earners who happen to be great friends of the Tories.

Although I underastand why people vote Tory I'm suprised those who do aren't embarassed to admit it.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 10:11:56

That isn't acceptable perception. But no one with an ounce of common sense thinks that disabled people and their carers are scroungers.

It seems to be those on the left assume that everyone else has the same opinion of disabled people as they do of people who are unemployable for other reasons, and I just don't think that's true.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 10:12:42

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

juneau Fri 21-Dec-12 10:16:03

I think we should go back to the grammar school system because it was the one system that allowed bright, but poor kids to excel and have a chance to compete with privately-educated, wealthier kids. Doing away with grammar schools and lumping everyone into a one-size-fits-all system has been a disaster for educational attainment in this country. It also doesn't, IMO, help the less academic kids (I'm not suggesting that we return to the choice between a grammar or a crappy comprehensive). If David Cameron finds a way to deliver on his ambition to give every child the kind of education he had (i.e. every state school providing something modelled on the private system), he would be one of the great PMs of all time.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Fri 21-Dec-12 10:16:12

Sinister - I once heard a judge say "Voting Conservative is a lot like masturbation. Lots of people do it but not many admit to it!"

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:18:00

Outraged - the Tories have recently had to concede that their benefits cap will be used on carers who have to look after disabled adult children when they previously stated the benefits cap (designed to encourage people who can to work) would not affect households where anyone was disabled.

That is very unfair and means people will be forced to put their disabled relatives into care homes, which cost the tax payer far more.

KnittingChristmas Fri 21-Dec-12 10:19:43

Word factory, I've done years of door step campaigning thanks!

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 10:20:28

"Since when was it ever acceptable to call disabled people and their carers scroungers?"

When people suspect they are swinging the lead.

KnittingChristmas Fri 21-Dec-12 10:21:11

And I agree with Ghoul grin!

This was demonstrated in '92 when a labour victory was predicted because so many Tory voters lied to the pollsters about which way they were going to vote!

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 10:21:15

Maybe, but the benefit cap is only a cap. As long as its capped at a level that enables a reasonable standard of living, then there isn't a problem with it being applied to anyone who has to claim benefits.

TeamBacon Fri 21-Dec-12 10:21:25

"The tories have brainwashed people to think that everyone on benefits is lazy and leaves the curtains shut while the strivers go out to work. And it's worked - some people believe this and there is evidence of it upthread.

In reality nobody on benefits is getting enough money to cover more than they really need. And some people have had rubbish opportunities and therefore cannot get a job even if they wanted to.

The propaganda they peddle is shameful. And people like David Cameron have no idea what it is like to really strive for something, I'll bet. Ironic really."

perception - this exactly.

Mamf74 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:21:49

I was very tempted to vote Tory at the last election; given that I come from a staunch Labour family that was a huge admission to make!

I also think that had a Tory government got in then the changes that have been made would have been more cohesive. Sadly I think the Coalition is a mess and a lot of the chaos that it arising from the Government is stemming from kneejerk reactions to each party's demands on the other without seeing the whole picture. Not exactly tit for tat but certainly point scoring, which helps no-one.

If I were a dyed in the wool, paid up member of the Tory party I would also be despairing at having Cameron and Osborne so high up in the party. They have a very "Let Them Eat Cake" mentaility and seem unable to articulate their own policies which isn't very inspiring. Cameron is very clumsy at publicly defending policies, eg saying that Food Banks were part of the Big Society and a good thing when in fact it could be argued it is the opposite.

Finally, I think it is outrageous that a company like Atos have been given contracts with no penalty clauses for those claims upheld at appeal. Outsourcing any service like those with Atos and A4E will always come back to bite them unless watertight confidence applies and this is why I would struggle with who to vote for, given a lot of these companies were approached during the Labour government.

EnjoyResponsibly Fri 21-Dec-12 10:24:02

It's not tax evasion, it's tax avoidance.

I'm no expert but I'll bet my Pret latte that the same tax rules that are currently being exploited were around throughout the Labour governments tenure.

I'd like to see the Tory government just get on and fix that.

And really you need to stop it if you think that Tory voters look down on people who are without work, or are disabled or carers.

Viviennemary Fri 21-Dec-12 10:25:10

I don't think Labour has any answers to this country's problems. I have realised this. I did vote Labour at the last general election and the one before that and the one before that. But don't think I will be again unless they get some new people with new ideas.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 10:25:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

niceguy2 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:26:30

I have to add that whilst I have mainly Tory principles, I do also think that Osbourne & Cameron are out of touch and don't have the experience they need.

I'd like to see someone with principles and the backbone to see through the tough changes needed. I get the sense that the dynamic duo are concerned more with spin & headlines than focusing on the long term good of the country. It was something I hated about Tony Blair and see this trend continuing.

That said I hate Miliband & Balls even more. After nearly two years out of power they've still seemingly only got one policy. Tax the bankers and use that money to pay for <insert well meaning cause>. And they oppose EVERY cut but at the same time say they'd have to make cuts too. Seriously....

theleanandhungrytype Fri 21-Dec-12 10:26:38

Milliband shouldn't have stood against his brother, Ed Balls is a bully and borrowing more money will not get us out of this mess

Iraq, Afghanistan, Mass Immigration and screwing up the economy are not rectified by saying 'Oh yeah, sorry about that'

KnittingChristmas Fri 21-Dec-12 10:27:22

Enjoy, it's not about "abusing" Tory voters - I totally understand why the (selfish) rich vote Tory, why on earth wouldn't they?!

I am bemused as to why anyone else does as the Tory hierarchy hold anyone not as wealthy as them in utter contempt and is always been taught turkeys don't vote for Christmas. But maybe some turkeys do?

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 10:29:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 21-Dec-12 10:30:57

Yes the grammar school argument. As if there wasnt enough segregation going on now with the remergence of the deserving and undeserving poor currently peddled out by the Tories. Giving a golden ticket to a minority at the expense of the majority of children being effectively written off before they reach their teens. Classic Tory.

My mum failed her 11+
She later went on to get a BEd and MA

Catriona100 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:31:11

Partly anti-Labour/ anti-Liberal and partly pro-conservative (small c) management of the country. There are definitely things and people I don't like about the Conservative party (boorish behaviour, Nadine Dorries and David Cameron are all examples) but I think they have some good ideas. If only they could sort out what they all think about the EU...!

FelicityWasSanta Fri 21-Dec-12 10:31:35

I have voted for all three major parties in my time.

I make a decision based on the policies being presented at the election. I know this is stupid because they are liars, however the alternative is to try and guess what they will actually do in power which is pretty much impossible to do.

I don't like the Ohhh nasty Tory fallacy. It's too easy and just rubbish really.

It is possible to hate the lib dems for being spineless.
hate the Tories for their education and disability policies
And hate Labour for the wars and the economy.

However, we're all going down with the ineffectual in power, we're all going down if we go to war again and/or really run out of money. Which leaves the Tories as the only party who probably won't ruin us all.

Rather a depressing choice though.

cinnamonnut Fri 21-Dec-12 10:32:05

Knitting, some people are happy to vote for a party that supports good opportunities for social mobility, even if they are currently poor themselves.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 10:32:56

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EnjoyResponsibly Fri 21-Dec-12 10:34:13

Knitting and yet there you go. I am neither (I hope) selfish, rich or a turkey.

I support the Conservative party, reserve the right to criticise them and not vote for them if I choose. Additionally i respect your right to disagree and vote for whomever you choose.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 21-Dec-12 10:34:13

TSC glad to see you engaging with the intelligent side of this debate, as usual.

Winky tax credits are benefits. You may not receive them, but far too many people do. Under Gordon Brown's administration, a family earning £55K a year was eligible to receive tax credits - ie. state benefits - if they had two or more children and used childcare.
That is just insane, and it was all about developing a large part of the population into clients of the state, so that people felt they had no choice but the continue voting Labour.

I believe in small government, and minimal state interference in people's lives. If government was more discriminating about who it handed out cash to, then there would be more for the disabled, the carers, the sick - who really are in need, rather than only being able to provide the insufficient level of support that we do at the moment.

Catriona100 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:34:15

Also, I really hate snobbery, both the traditional type and the inverted type aka "you went to private school" as if makes you a lesser person.

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 10:34:29

Those of you who vote tory because of the personal responsibility/freedom from control by the state type of shtick, does it not strike you that those who lead the tories are coming from a position of extreme privilege? If you have grown up with the benefits of a wealthy family and door-opening private education then this philosophy is supremely sensible. What it ignores is the influence of initial conditions on the less fortunate. Asking people who are struggling and come from a disadvantaged background to take personal responsibility is fine, but you have to accept that there are limits to what people can achieve and that in order to prevent the next generation from similarly struggling there needs to be help from the more privileged (in the form of good education, healthcare and, yes, benefits).

I speak as a non-supporter of any of the major parties (so not pushing the labour agenda at all). I am a socialist and believe that as a society we all should have a responsibility for one another and that the privileges bestowed upon those in power as a right of birth, religion or through their education and networking ought to be completely wiped out through parliamentary and educational reform and abolition of the monarchy.

If you just take a step back for a minute the whole thing is absurd. Power is bought or born into in this country and it needs to change.

(Disclaimer: I really wish I had the solution but I don't, so I try not to think about it most of the time)

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 10:35:45

" the Tory hierarchy hold anyone not as wealthy as them in utter contempt"

I don't know about contempt but I'm far happier to have a government that encourages us to create or accumulate wealth rather than one that despises people just for having a few quid and plots to part them from it. Or worse, hypocritically pretends... like Blair, Milliband, Balls and others... that they are down with the po' folk in order to ingratiate themselves.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:35:48

'Maybe, but the benefit cap is only a cap. As long as its capped at a level that enables a reasonable standard of living, then there isn't a problem with it being applied to anyone who has to claim benefits.'

That depends on where you live, though doesn't it. If in the East where rent prices are high you f*ed frankly.

FelicityWasSanta Fri 21-Dec-12 10:36:17

Fork do you not think the leaders of all three parties come from a position of extreme privilege?

niceguy2 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:36:40

Catriona, It's just jealousy & politics of envy. How many of us would send our kids to private school if we could? I know I certainly would.

So to then bash someone for having had the education we wish our kids could have had is jealousy pure & simple.

larrygrylls Fri 21-Dec-12 10:38:26

A lot of people with aspirations for their children like Gove's approach of making qualifications worth having again, rather than the annual "best results ever, aren't children getting cleverer" charade we had under labour, when every uni and employer continued to insist people were less and less qualified.

Many people believe in equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome and want to be rewarded for their efforts rather than for merely existing.

Many people believe that living on one's income is far more sensible than to let borrowing spiral out of control and allow our children to pay the price.

Many people believe that Labour are generally hypocritical and, whilst claiming to be the "fair" party, actually show far more patronage than the Tories ever will, with Tony Blair et al being the ultimate exemplars. I think T.B is possibly the only PM we have ever had who was in politics purely for personal gain.

I cannot say that I love the Tories, far from it. They are also immensely hypocritical and also have not shown the competence that they promised. Having said that, I think that they are far more competent than Labour and their principles are far closer to mine (see above). They will therefore be once again getting my vote at the next election.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:38:30

Cogito - the DWP themselves have said that fraudulent claims for DLA are very low. There are very few people who are 'swinging the lead' actually.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 10:38:32

"Those of you who vote tory because of the personal responsibility/freedom from control by the state type of shtick, does it not strike you that those who lead the tories are coming from a position of extreme privilege?"

Not at all because I don't think it follows that someone has to be poor to help poor people any more than someone rich will only help rich people. We judge performance on outcomes... not incomes.

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 10:38:45

Yes felicity, they are. I focused on the tories because it's the topic of the thread but the problem with our political system is much bigger than them IMO.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:40:16

The Tories bleat about 'strivers' but actually crush opportunities for social mobility. They are indeed hypocrites.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 10:40:53

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 10:41:04

Cogito - I don't really understand your reply. I didn't really mean that rich people will only help rich people, rather that as a wealthy, privileged person taking "personal responsibility" is a bit different to someone starting from the bottom.

HelpOneAnother Fri 21-Dec-12 10:41:57

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Crinkle77 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:42:10

Why should anyone have to justify who they vote for?

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 10:42:25

Fork, you make a valid point in your first paragraph and I agree with you to an extent.

But everyone does have basic education and healthcare and money to live on available to them, there is only so much that the privileged can do to support the disadvantaged. That's where personal responsibility comes into it.

Our children are never going to make the best of the education they are offered if their parents don't take responsibility to support it and enable their children to reach their potential. We are never going to make the most of the healthcare we have available if we don't make healthy choices in our personal lives.

I agree that wealth distribution is a problem, and I believe that in society we have a responsibility to one another, but I also believe it is up to every individual to do their best in the circumstances they have, and it's up to every parent to ensure their child has better or equal opportunities than they themselves had.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 10:42:55

"There are very few people who are 'swinging the lead' actually."

I'm sure they are a minority. However, ask about and everyone seems to know someone - a friend, a cousin, a friend of a friend - who is not as disabled as he's cracking on. Only last week a friend told me about one of her in-laws, a 38 year-old man that has not worked in 20 years, who claims disability for chronic incontinence and yet can be regularly found propping up the local bar with seemingly no bladder control difficulties at all. Could be idle gossip, could be genuinely incapacitated, could be a total shirker but these stories circulate without any intervention and they gather pace in the community.

almapudden Fri 21-Dec-12 10:44:55

I have always voted Lib Dem but since they had a sniff of power and abandoned all their principles, I won't be doing so next time. I don't know who I'll vote for yet as I am worried that Labour will (further) bugger the economy but the Tories are dismantling the NHS.

I don't see that one party is intrinsically 'better' or more moral than the other. Milliband is as much a twat as Cameron.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 10:45:12

Cogito, if government policies did not allow stories like this to be a real and valid and believable possibility, then these stories would not continue to circulate.

That's why benefits need to be better targeted and less generous.

Crinkle77 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:45:32

Anonymumous, excellent post

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 10:47:46

Outraged
<I agree that wealth distribution is a problem, and I believe that in society we have a responsibility to one another, but I also believe it is up to every individual to do their best in the circumstances they have, and it's up to every parent to ensure their child has better or equal opportunities than they themselves had. >

I can't really disagree with this, I guess I just feel that the circumstances that people find themselves in are far too variable, so that even if a parent does do their best their child will inevitably have far fewer opportunities coming from a lower SES family than a high SES family.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:49:46

niceguy - I don't think you are right about private schools, ie everyone wants their child to go there and everyone who can't is just jealous. I know people who can well afford it but don't agree with the concept. (have a child in a prep school myself so no axe to grind.)

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 21-Dec-12 10:49:56

Fork that is exactly the point. We need a good, free education system that all children can access regardless of background - and then people can achieve whatever they wish.

The current charade of 'choice', is the most divisive, socially stagnant thing imaginable, because you have to have money to buy a house in a decent catchment otherwise your children run the risk of being failed utterly by the education system.
Also, the idea that one-size-fits-all is ludicrous. The grammar system worked, but what didn't happen was the third option of technical/vocational colleges taking kids from 11/12. Everyone else was lumped into a comprehensive and teachers were left trying to teach academic subjects to children whose talents lay elsewhere. A total mess.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 10:51:00

What's SES?

I agree that people will not always have the same opportunities, but I don't think that healthy people are so disadvantaged at the bottom end of the scale that they can't become successful in life.

autumnlights12 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:51:44

The Labour Party always bankrupts the country and uses bribes to win votes. It's easy to throw more and more borrowed debt at problems. It's far far harder to ask what those problems are and prevent them from happening. It's not about taking from the poor and giving to the rich. Most Labour politicians come from the same public school, Oxbridge backgrounds as their Tory counterparts and have as little personal knowledge of living on the breadline as a privileged Tory does. If they really understood poverty and the cause of poverty, they'd not just throw more benefits at it like Blair and Brown did.

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 10:52:11

Socio-economic status

Yes, they can be successful, of course they can, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

perceptionInaPearTree Fri 21-Dec-12 10:52:52

'everyone seems to know someone - a friend, a cousin, a friend of a friend - who is not as disabled as he's cracking on.'

No, everyone thinks they know everyone else's circumstances when in fact they couldn't possibly. And those people who come out with comments like this tend not to be very nice ime. I never gossip about anyone I know or presume to understand their circumstances.

In practice DLA is very difficult to claim - you have to jump through a lot of hoops. And a lot of people have to go to tribunal with a genuine claim before it is agreed.

larrygrylls Fri 21-Dec-12 10:54:58

Wealth inequality probably increased the most ever under New Labour. They were the one's who encouraged the banks to overvalue their assets and give huge bonuses as they could then use the taxes paid to splash the cash on their favourite projects. They were the one's who allowed top level public sector workers to have increases many times that of inflation whilst penalising the old and savers. They gave enormous public service contracts to their pet companies who paid their executives basic salaries of hundreds of thousands (and sometimes millions) to achieve nothing positive. Gordon Brown was pretty much the inventor of PFI as it allowed him to cook the books.

Aside from that, TB and GB both went to top Scottish schools and the cabinet was mainly Scots guaranteed to toe the line. I think people (certainly a fair few English people) don't realise that those top Scottish schools are pretty much the equivalent of Eton.

How people can forget all the above and think of the Tories as the "nasty" or "posh" party, I don't know.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 10:56:14

Thanks Fork.

almapudden Fri 21-Dec-12 10:57:29

I genuinely know someone who has five kids, doesn't work, and spends every weekend posting photos of herself (pregnant!) out on the lash. Not saying this person is in the majority but she does exist!

niceguy2 Fri 21-Dec-12 10:57:56

Thatcher & Major both led the Conservative party from very humble beginnings. So it doesn't follow that only rich privileged folk get to be Tory leader.

What does make me laugh is the feeble attempt at trying to position Ed Miliband as a man of the people because he went to a comp school.

Ephiny Fri 21-Dec-12 10:59:08

It's only an anecdote (and probably one I've told before), but both my parents came from the kind of properly dirt-poor background that doesn't really exist any more in the UK. Thanks to the grammar school system, supportive (though poor and uneducated) parents, and a lot of hard work, they both got PhDs from top universities, and while they were never wealthy, they did well enough in their professional lives to buy a home, support their family, and be comfortably retired now.

Yes it probably was a longer and harder slog for them than for someone who had it all handed to them on a plate. But I guess that's just how life is, and sometimes we need to look at what we have (free education for every child until age 18, free healthcare etc) instead of despairing because some have more than others. And it seems to me a very patronising attitude to suggest that there are 'limits' to what someone can achieve because they come from a disadvantaged background. The culture of low expectations created by that sort of attitude is potentially more limiting than the poverty/disadvantage itself.

almapudden Fri 21-Dec-12 11:02:24

Ephiny - absolutely. And I don't feel that Labour did anything to challenge the culture of low aspirations that is prevalent in some areas. By chucking money at the problem indiscriminately, they created a sense of entitlement that actually lowered people's aspirations: why should you work for something that is being given out for free?

FushiaFernica Fri 21-Dec-12 11:03:21

I can't vote Labour anymore so I would probably end up letting the Tories back in, by not voting. All major parties as bad as each other now.

niceguy2 Fri 21-Dec-12 11:05:48

it seems to me a very patronising attitude to suggest that there are 'limits' to what someone can achieve because they come from a disadvantaged background.

Exactly. There are plenty of people who have 'made it' despite not having a penny to rub together when they were younger. John Caudwell grew up on a council estate and Richard Branson is dyslexic.

Whilst the US has many problems of their own, one thing I love is their absolute belief that anyone regardless of background can achieve. The American Dream. They look up to those who have achieved, have been successful and aspire to emulate them. Unlike the UK where we seem to sneer at those who are successful and imply they have only been so by treading on the backs of others.

heidihole Fri 21-Dec-12 11:06:09

Havent read the thread but I vote Tory because:

They support Grammar schools which is TRUE social mobility.

They don't seethe and scowl at people who have worked hard and earnt their own money.

They don't want to squish everyone down to the lowest common denominator like labour, they'd rather everyone was rich whereas labour seem to only like poor people and would be happy if all the rich were culled.

People HAVE to stand on their own two feet. The handout culture, whilst heartwarming, is unsustainable as we're now seeing.

So many reasons but I can't think of ONE reason i'd vote labour. ever.

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 11:13:09

I don't think it is patronising Ephiny, I think it's realism.
For every person like your parents (who were obviously very intelligent and hard-working people) there are others who were unable to achieve that potential due to circumstances beyond their control.
For all labour's faults their policies did result in a huge increase in uptake in higher education. Although this has its own problems, with the devaluing of degrees etc., it does suggest that there was a positive impact on the aspirations of young people.

niceguy
Does the fact that the people who did make it against the odds are well-known for that not tell you something about the chances of the majority from that background? Just because some people make it doesn't mean that everyone can. The US don't have the same kind of class system as we do in the UK, hence the lack of sneering.

LaCiccolina Fri 21-Dec-12 11:17:45

I grew up in a conservative gov. I went to Uni work in a labour one. I'm now a mother and its blue again.

On the whole I did not get great impressions of labour at the point I was planning/able to think about voting. Parents/locality informs my opinion prior to this. My area was blue and it worked well. It still does. So the area nearest my house greatly influences my thoughts for the country (doesn't everyone do that?).

This is now the first time in questioning this, simply as there's a few recent changes I don't agree with; child bens axed, employment law altered, suggestions of nursery places axing etc. these affect my life as it is now, and whilst my locality is just as good I don't know if I can give them the country again, so to speak.

I'm now completely undecided. Dreading it as ill hAve to actually research the next one. Ugh....

ethelb Fri 21-Dec-12 11:21:48

I will never vote Tory but the smug 'out of touch' manner of the OP is another reason why it will take a long, long, long time before I ever consider voting Labour.

I can completely understand why some people will vote Tory, even if I don't agree with them.

alli1968 Fri 21-Dec-12 11:23:13

Ephiny - spot on

my father was adopted from a childrens home, my grandfather in a spurgeons orphanage until the age of 18, my husband and I both went to state comprehensives. I now work in the city (not fat cat - back office) my husband is teacher. I find it exceptionally depressing that milliband balls cooper blair et al with their oxbridge privileged backgound try to pretend that they understand any better what a family would need / want / aspire to. Everyone agrees that a real and effective safety net is essential to support us when times are tough but institutionalising a lifestyle is just patronising and lazy.

Upthread there were many answers that suggested that tory voters were the only group that voted on the basis of self interest - REALLY????

Viviennemary Fri 21-Dec-12 11:25:27

Smug, out of touch, knowing what's best for everyone. Try Harriet Harman. What a pain that woman is.

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 11:32:56

Harman is a twat and a corrupt twat of the highest order. I don't care who she represents, she should be locked up.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 11:33:44

"I never gossip about anyone I know or presume to understand their circumstances."

Never? smile Then you're a saintly creature indeed and your place in heaven is assured. But gossip goes on, people compare themselves with their neighbours and, if the deck seems to be stacked against them and for others - rightly or wrongly - that's how resentment starts. I'm not arguing that newspapers or politicians haven't picked up the baton ... even Milliband's conference speech referenced the something for nothing culture created by his predecessor... but I think it's capitalising on an prevailing sentiment and is not exclusively tory.

ethelb Fri 21-Dec-12 11:35:35

I'm not a Labour or Tory voter but I have never understood the Harman hate.

What's wrong with her?

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 11:36:21

My Iraqi friend who is in my house right now said he can give you 4reasons. His parents and 2 sisters.

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 11:38:01

She is corrupt scum. From car accidents to expenses, she is a champagne socialist of the worst extreme. I do hate her, she is the labour thatcher figure. I voted for those scumbags as well. Even if I could, I would never ever vote again.

RedHelenB Fri 21-Dec-12 11:39:36

They had a lot of time under Thatcher to get people off benefits but this didn't happen did it? Ultimately we are not going to have full employment again under capitalism.

HappyMummyOfOne Fri 21-Dec-12 11:44:42

Not all Tory voters are rich, many will be normally earners who just agree more with the Tory party stance than other parties.

Labour borrowed money to throw at people. How many dropped to part time hours knowing that tax credits would top up their salary, chose to have just one earner at the expense of other working tax payers, how many had children knowing the state would be paying for them or living in areas that working people cant afford to.

We need better than that for the future so that children have better lives. Working and supporting yourself should be the norm and benefits should be lower by a good percentage to ensure people dont see benefits as a lifestyle choice. Stop paying out everytime somebody has a child and put the emphasis back on the parents to ensure children are accomodated in the household budget not the states. Childcare costs could be subsidised and more money could be ploughed into schools if we abolished CB.

Encouraging people to stand in their own two feet is a policy that can only be good for the country.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Fri 21-Dec-12 11:46:13

I thought 'employment' as a construct went rather hand in hand with capitalism? confused

juneau Fri 21-Dec-12 11:56:06

Ultimately we are not going to have full employment again under capitalism.

So what do you suggest - communism?

And this is a ridiculous comment:
*Yes the grammar school argument. As if there wasnt enough segregation going on now with the remergence of the deserving and undeserving poor currently peddled out by the Tories. Giving a golden ticket to a minority at the expense of the majority of children being effectively written off before they reach their teens. Classic Tory.

My mum failed her 11+
She later went on to get a BEd and MA*

The only way to level the professional playing field and give those from poor backgrounds the chance for social mobility is the allow the brightest to rise to the top early and be pushed academically. What do you think happens in a private school? I'll tell you. Children are streamed and taught according to ability. So the brightest get to be taught at a faster pace and get pushed further. The less able are taught more slowly, but also to a high standard, thereby allowing each child to fulfil his/her potential. There are no 'prizes for all'. The bright are encouraged to excel - and they do. Labour's policy of lumping everyone in together may be egalitarian, but it does a huge disservice to everyone as it's very hard for one teacher to teach to the various abilities all sitting together in one classroom.

pmcblonde Fri 21-Dec-12 11:58:51

I loathe and detest political tribalism. The mud slinging and adherence to completely outdated left/right tropes to galvanise the unthinking into knee jerk electoral responses has been horribly destructive in politics since the 1970s onwards. Negative campaigning is destroying public debate in this country.

All parties are stuffed to the gills with professional politicians with little experience of life outside of politics from their teens onwards which gives them lots of experience of politicking and no experience of management, governance or policy making. The professionalisation of politics has been a bad, bad thing. There are fewer independent voices, fewer politicians with other interests that they have been able to continue once elected and this is highly detrimental to effective governance.

I firmly believe that the state should be as small as possible. I believe that people should be responsible for themselves and their dependants to the greatest extent possible. I believe in civil liberties and the freedom to do as I please within a sensible legal framework providing I do no harm to others. I would describe myself as a classic liberal - I'm economically conservative and socially liberal (permissive). I believe in public service and taking a socially responsible approach to how I live my life - and I believe that is my choice and shouldn't be inflicted on others. All of this is classic Toryism however poorly articulated in recent years.

I'm not sure I can easily forgive the Labour Party for ID cards and their curtailment of civil liberties under Blair and Brown. I don't think I can forgive them for forcing their choice and morality on other people. I find elements of the Conservative Party deeply unpleasant but at least current leadership is challenging that.

I wish that David Davies and David Miliband had won their respective leadership elections - politics would be a more intellectually rigorous place

EdgarAllanPond Fri 21-Dec-12 11:59:19

there is still little difference between in real policy terms between labour and and the conservatives.

you could go through Gordon Browns manifesto with a pen and check off virtually everything as having been also proposed by the Condems

i think it is ridiculous to claim the 'scroungers' stories emanate from the government - if they were that powerful they'd have got an outright majority!
stories like that have been commonplaces of work lunchtime conversation my whole working life - so throughout the previous government.

anyone know what Ed Milliband stands for?

buggered if i know.

EdgarAllanPond Fri 21-Dec-12 12:04:29

and whilst we're on the topic

if labour are so nice, and didn't want to promote the idea that people on benefits were cheats

one wonders why they brought out that expensive tv ad.

and this one

and this one

boschy Fri 21-Dec-12 12:22:33

The single biggest problem, it seems to me, is short-term-ism.

Every politician probably goes into the job 'to help people' but they all end up putting self/party interest first, because of course having ridden the gravy train who would want to get off it?

If we could do away with political parties, and have a thinktank of the best brains I think we could do an awful lot better in every sector of govt - health, education, social services, economy and so on.

Every time these type of conversations come up and benefits etc are mentioned, everyone talks about the fact that some children grow up with poor role models (non-working, disinterested, failing parents etc etc). If the best brains in Britain, from whatever party/background would actually put their minds to it and ensure that all children were given the best start in life from birth onwards then I think we'd start to see a difference within 10 years.

But that won't happen will it? And I cant see how it could be done democratically anyway.

autumnlights12 Fri 21-Dec-12 12:22:47

Socialism is for the young and foolish idealistic
Conservatism is for grownups.

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 21-Dec-12 12:41:02

By Grownups surely you mean the old and the rich.

EdgarAllanPond Fri 21-Dec-12 12:43:33

so in my area, the 63% that vote conservative are all old and rich?

no wonder the shops are busy on pension day.

autumnlights12 Fri 21-Dec-12 12:45:20

No, I don't mean old and rich. I mean older, realistic, wise.

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 12:49:40

Just so you know, it isn't actually illegal to be rich. Do you think all those old ladies who work in charity shops and out with collection tins are members of the socialist workers party and paid up members of the sixth form magazine?
It is people that do good and bad, not apparently intelligent educated people in a so called civilised democratic society. I have lived in several dictatorships with more politically realistic people than some of these lefties, honestly. I don't even vote and am not affiliated to any party but I hate the hypocrisy.

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 12:50:58

Labour sang and danced the night they won the election. For that reason and that reason only, they should all have been imprisoned for gross public indecency.

DadOnIce Fri 21-Dec-12 12:52:08

The Left like to put about the fallacy that the Right is nasty, self-interested, "posh" and uncaring.

The Right like to put about the fallacy that the Left is stupid, naive, woolly and profligate.

I'm 42 and it's been the same throughout my adult life.

Not sure where the slightly-left-of-centre is any more, which is where I used to feel I belonged. The Lib Dems used to aspire to it, but they've kind of blown that one... Greens?

theodorakisses Fri 21-Dec-12 12:56:37

Greens are a bit wimpy though. Why can't there just be a party ran by normal people?

theroseofwait Fri 21-Dec-12 13:01:34

I vote Tory, my dh has been the Tory candidate in our local elections for the last 6 years and my elder son did his first street surgery at 12 weeks.

I do so because I believe in hard work and personal responsibility. Many adults today act like overgrown teenagers and it is a national disgrace. Drinking in ridiculous amounts, sleeping with God knows who without a thought for safe sex, having numerous children to unknown fathers, being unable to communicate or hold down a job and this is what 13 years of the Labour 'it's all right we'll look after you whatever' mentality has brought.

Of course I think those genuinely unable to work should be looked after, it's those who think they can choose not to I have issue with.

And some of you W.I. women in your leafy idyllic villages in middle England who vote Tory. could well apply to me, although I'm more seaside than leafy and earn as much if not more than dh, and I would really rather be thought of as such than some silly, silly woman who has made an utter fool of herself and wasted her life on benefits.

Viviennemary Fri 21-Dec-12 13:02:36

I keep wishing that too theodorakisses. We live in hope. Perhaps a new party will replace the LD because I think they're finished.

DadOnIce Fri 21-Dec-12 13:24:25

The Lib Dems will possibly split, with a new left-leaning, genuinely liberal party emerging from the ashes and leaving the Orange Bookers behind?...

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 21-Dec-12 13:26:47

theroseofwait I find your sweeping generalisation of what you assume the majority of people in this country to be utterly disgusting. If you stopped assuming anyone earning less with you is fodder for Jeremy Kyle you might just see how wrong and offensive you are.i

picketywick Fri 21-Dec-12 13:28:51

If I was absolutely drunk and had lost my reason; I might just accidentally vote Tory and then volunteer to be sectioned. Putting a full page apology in all the national papers/

RedToothbrush Fri 21-Dec-12 13:29:59

I've voted Lib Dem, Tory and Labour in the past.

I've had reasons for all three and reasons against all three. I don't 'support' any of them.

Currently I find myself in a position, where I find Miliband weak beyond belief, and his key members of staff just utterly clueless. Three words out of the mouth of Ed Balls and I develop the urge to punch him in the face. The party has a hell of a lot of work to do before I can see them as credible and frankly intelligent enough to run the country.

In terms of Clegg and Cameron, I see an interesting thing. I actually think both are very close in personal belief and this is pretty much the only reason why the coalition was possible in the first place. The difference is purely the party they belong to and what they have to do to appease the rest of their party. I think its better to describe both as more libertarians with slightly different approaches rather than 'liberal' or 'conservative' in the traditional sense.

The fact that the more right wing elements of the conservative party are upset and UKIP is growing is telling. Whether you believe it or not, the political position of the Conservatives is shifting and its not the same as previously and it is Cameron who is driving that. And the Lib Dems are inevitably, as they always were going to be, being swallowed up in that process.

As for all this stuff about The Nasty Party. I do find it funny given that Alistair Darling has said since the election that he thinks the all the cuts have been the right thing to do, and that people have a pop at Cameron over his admiration for Thatcher, when Brown said exactly the same thing in 2007... The truth is, that I do believe we'd be in exactly the same situation right now, regardless of who won the election. but its easy to draw on the old stereotypes and cliches to demonise the current government rather than reflect on the reality of what our options really were back in 2010 and whether we ever had a chance to choose a different direction at all anyway.

At the last election I had the luxury of being in a rare area where all three main parties had a realistic opportunity of being elected. It wasn't an easy decision, and in the end I voted tactically. From what I understand, thats what a hell of a lot of people did, rather than vote FOR a party. They tended to vote AGAINST another. It was about the lesser of all the evils available. Personally I wanted elements of both the Lib Dems and the Conservatives, but not the looney tunes at either end of the party. Amazingly I got that. And I still believe that given all the scenarios available, its was probably the best one, though still hugely flawed.

So what will I vote in the next election? Again, it'll be tactical I suspect and something I decide on the day. I fear UKIP being a realistic prospect at the next election, especially in my constituency. And that scares the life out of me.

In truth, right wing elements fucking off to UKIP, actually make the Conservatives more electable to me, but that doesn't mean I actually WANT to still vote for them.

TBH I'm hoping that there will be a rise of a bunch of independent candidates that pop up in time for the election and raise a whole bunch of issues and do some agenda setting as a result. I think people are dissatisfied enough for this to be a possibility, I think that social media means its a greater possibility to be able to run an effective campaign and this is coupled with a public desire to look for alternatives.

Heres to hoping.

picketywick Fri 21-Dec-12 13:30:55

Jeremy Kyle mentioned. Cameron and Nadine are not getting on. They should go on the Kyle show and give us all a laugh.

AudrinaWhiteChristmasAdare Fri 21-Dec-12 13:35:00

I think I'd go berserk and take a sledgehammer to the television if all three of them were on my screen at once.

picketywick Fri 21-Dec-12 13:52:06

Yes, Audrina. It would be a challenge. Kyle chasing Cameron an Nadine down the corridor shouting. "Come back the detector tests are coming through . You cud be related."

Ephiny Fri 21-Dec-12 14:18:11

So does any of this help answer your question, OP?

diabolo Fri 21-Dec-12 14:37:38

I vote Tory because:

- I agree with the principles of moderate Conservatism (capitalism, no "state" telling us what we can and can't do down to the last minutiae, the idea that by working hard you can make a good life for your family, property ownership, aspiration, state benefits when needed, not as a way of life).

- I think the welfare system in this country needs an even more dramatic overhaul than it is currently undergoing. I work in a school in a rough area and frequently see some parents of kids on FSM buying booze and scratchcards at the local shop at 9.30am. I know not everyone on benefits does this, but people on MN in the past have been overly quick to call me a liar about this. I am not lying. I see it, on at least a weekly basis.

- I don't want everything dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

- I like competition.

- I want a choice of schools and healthcare.

- Many public sector departments need a whole new ethos. This would never even be suggested under a Labour government.

So there you have it.

chris481 Fri 21-Dec-12 15:11:00

British politics is very simple. The poorer half of the population tries to use the power of the ballot box to put its hand in the pocket of the other half, and the other half tries to resist.

(When I looked at the ONS figures, half of households were net contributors to the state and half net takers. The figure was so precise that it was presumably by design.)

Each half has a party that represents its interest.

The left uses morality as cover for redistribution. This is nonsense, if morality were the main driver, the money raised would be spent in the third world.

Many people believe this cover story though, and as a logical consequence believe that people who oppose them must be immoral, they therefore feel justified in expressing hatred and abuse towards them. (Some may call the right the "nasty party" because of their policies, but the left is where the personally nasty people are.)

Because of the (false) perception of the moral high-ground, some people like to publically express their left-wing views. I think they are similar to people who go around expressing anti-peadophile views. It's a way of building up self-esteem by finding someone else to despise.

SmileyPenguin Fri 21-Dec-12 15:43:19

I like the Tories as they tend to be the party of lower taxes.

autumnlights12 Fri 21-Dec-12 17:20:50

brilliant post Chris.

LittleFrieda Fri 21-Dec-12 17:26:49

I really resent the lazy assumption that Tory voters are selfish, greedy and uncaring members of society.

I like the post earlier in this thread where the poster asserts that selfish people vote Tory. He'She then goes on to explain that she will certainly not vote Tory as due to Tory cutbacks she might lose her job. <<laughs up sleeve>>

I quite like the idea of the benefit card, so long as it's discreet. Perhaps M&S Money could issue and run the cards?

ForkInTheForeheid Fri 21-Dec-12 17:32:03

chris481
That is a gross over-simplifiication of people's voting tendencies and political views. Do you really think only net "takers" believe in wealth redistribution? I agree that there is a moral problem with the reliance on the poor in other countries for our own wealth, but I don't think that's particularly a problem of the left. My BIL is a case in point, a very high earner in a big company who wishes he paid more tax, he is a contributor who wishes to contribute more.

I don't express my left-wing views to increase my self-esteem, I feel deeply guilty about the set-up of this country and the advantages I have (despite not being a wealthy person myself) and think we need to seek a more egalitarian way of doing things.

To say that half the population (the "takers") are trying to put their hands in the pockets of the net contributors ignores the fact that the rich can only remain so on the backs of the poor, of this country and of others.

Nancy66 Fri 21-Dec-12 17:39:48

ForkInTheForeheid - your brother can contribute more via charitable donations. He can contribute as much as he wants. Saying he wants to do more but he isn't taxed enough is daft.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 21-Dec-12 17:40:07

The left uses morality as cover for redistribution but what do you think is their 'real' reason then?

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 17:44:33

The real reason is the same as the reason the rich want to stay rich. Greed. Except when you earn the riches yourself, it's ok. When you want to take other people's, it's not.

There is a massive problem with wealth distribution, but Robin Hood tactics aren't going to solve it.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 21-Dec-12 17:48:15

I don't get it: why is it greedy? Or do you mean everyone in favour of any redistribution is, him/herself, poor and hoping to receive some of it?

Iggly Fri 21-Dec-12 17:50:09

Those who talk about a small state under the Tories, they don't push the localism agenda in practice. It's bollocks.

Local authorities have no power to increase council tax for example because they've been bribed into not doing it - they lose money from central government (which makes up the higher chunk of their funding). That is not localism.
Education - academies are freed from local authority control and under central gov control. That is not localism.
Planning permission etc - the right of local people to say no to developments is being taken away. That is not localism.

It's a load of rubbish.

The Tories represent the interest of the individual - its all about self interest and "me". Inherently selfish IMO.

Iggly Fri 21-Dec-12 17:51:54

Speak in plain English chris. You make no sense.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Fri 21-Dec-12 17:52:56

I don't mean that everyone who is in favour of redistribution wants more for themselves, but I do think that wanting more for yourself and those you care about is part of it.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that though.

LittleFrieda Fri 21-Dec-12 18:01:29

Chris is making perfectly legible sense. Iggly, you are just being rude.

Startail Fri 21-Dec-12 18:02:59

Actually there is a less than exceptionally small chance that anyone would else would have put up with DH this morning as he was in a fowl mood.

Startail Fri 21-Dec-12 18:03:40

Christmas cheer was seriously lacking

PessaryPam Fri 21-Dec-12 18:05:18

I have conservative principles so I will vote UKIP next election.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 21-Dec-12 18:16:45

Iggly - chris made perfect sense. Again, a construct of the Left to choose to wilfully misunderstand any argument made against it.

And someone can want to contribute more personally, without believing that the government should have greater powers of interference.
Better to hand a cheque directly to a local school or hospital for them to spend on needed equipment or services, rather than pay it to the government who will spend Xp in the pound administering it and deciding where it should be spent - on carpets in Whitehall!

Startail Fri 21-Dec-12 18:29:15

Truth is neither party helps the seriously disadvantaged.

The dear lad next doors hearts in the right place, but he's never had any family support. He needs a mentor as much as he needs money.

He needs a benefits system that recognises the difficulties of having temporary jobs in a transport free rural area.

He needs imaginative policies that are flexible and recognise that traveling 16 miles to the job centre isn't feasible.

The amount of time he spends on my phone sorting out the benefits office and desperately trying to insure his ancient car is huge.

He doesn't necessarily need more money, but reliable money. Constantly signing on and off is a nightmare. Having no savings and no way of borrowing money means when the car dies he loses his job.

It's a vicious circle that needs imagination as much as cash to solve.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 21-Dec-12 18:33:16

Startail that is a brilliant post.

EdgarAllanPond Fri 21-Dec-12 18:41:43

"
Planning permission etc - the right of local people to say no to developments is being taken away. That is not localism."

it is a sensible deviation from localism, as locals almost always oppose development even when it can be seen to be very necessary on a regional/national level.

there is a housing shortage, so this is needed

Iggly Fri 21-Dec-12 19:08:20

Again, a construct of the Left to choose to wilfully misunderstand any argument made against it how so? Where did I proclaims to be of "the left"? It was not coherent to me. I will read again but not hopeful.

Edgar, my point wasn't that it was a bad thing, just that the idea of localism isn't really cut out to be what some think it is.

Iggly Fri 21-Dec-12 19:12:11

Read chris's post again. I'm not getting how the voting population can be split into two. That's stupid.

I'm a net contributor I assume. I don't vote to keep my money away from net takers. I don't see the world that way. Children, for example, are generally net takers - where do they fit in?

It's a simplistic and therefore silly argument.

Roseformeplease Fri 21-Dec-12 19:33:49

Am a Tory voter who might just have to do the unthinkable and vote Labour in the next Scottish elections as a way of keeping the very, very scary Salmond out. He has people in his party advocating "social audits" of English people in positions of power in Scotland in order to find out if they are "colonists or settlers". Scary stuff. He is using the education system to push a pro-independence agenda (Scottish Studies anyone) and, after years of banging the independence drum, hasn't even got his policies sorted out or a coherent line on the pound or Eurpoe.

As you were.

dreamingofsun Fri 21-Dec-12 20:11:02

roseform - don't really think its salmond's decision ref pound surely? if scotland is independant surely its the euro and he has no say in that - despite maybe wishful thinking on his part

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 21-Dec-12 20:13:59

Dreaming it depends whether the EU accept Scotland as an independent nation immediately, or whether they need to apply and meet conditions.

It is a very interesting debate and process.

dreamingofsun Fri 21-Dec-12 20:16:25

outraged - could you explain to me why people like my husband - who has worked hard at school, has a very responsible job with lots of stress, works very long hours away from home in a job he dislikes, should redistribute his large income to his brother who is much poorer and who has never worked hard in his life, or accepted any form of promotion offered to him because he doesn't like responsibility and refuses any jobs that are less than about a 15 min commute?

dreamingofsun Fri 21-Dec-12 20:18:14

alib - so if they are accepted immediately they join the euro; but if they need to apply and meet conditions they won't have euro immediately and so will have to have something else in the interim, probably sterling? I hadn't realised that. I learn so much through MN!

ForkInTheForeheid Sat 22-Dec-12 13:33:57

Nancy66
<ForkInTheForeheid - your brother can contribute more via charitable donations. He can contribute as much as he wants. Saying he wants to do more but he isn't taxed enough is daft.

Of course he can, and he does. However, he believes that people in his position who are earning a great deal of money should be putting more into the pot in the form of tax - this is not the extent of his political philosophy, it would be in the context of other changes too. (He's a lot more eloquent and informed on these matters than me so I won't try to explain on his behalf!!)

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