Possibly unreasonable but a bit uncomfortable

(93 Posts)
Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 15:14:40

Early next year we are taking DP's brother away overseas to a drug rehabilitation clinic. We will be on a plane for 11 hours. To travel he needs to have not taken drugs for about 36 hours. He has come off drugs (heroin) for this amount of time before so I'm pretty sure he can do it. DP wants him to come here to us to go withdraw which I know involves a lot of vomiting and sweating.

AIBU not to want this to happen in our house? We have DS who is 3 and DN lives with us, he's 14 (but has been around his uncle in this state before and is now very anti-drugs as a result). Of course he will promise not to bring drugs into the house, or needles etc. (important, as he has hepatitis and possibly more) but can I be sure? We live somewhere he could reasonably get drugs if he wanted to.

He could go to his mum's but she lives 3 hours away and anyway I don't really trust her to be in control of the situation, and then we would have to get him over to us to get to the airport etc. and I don't want to risk wasting his ticket, treatment etc.

catgirl1976geesealaying Thu 13-Dec-12 15:17:16

Eeek

YANBU

Can you and/ or the children go anywhere else for the 3 days?

PippinWoo Thu 13-Dec-12 15:19:28

Where does he live at the moment?

Could your DP spend the 36 hours with him either at his place or their mum's place and then you could either go to the airport together or meet there ready to set off?

I'd agree that it's not something I'd want happening at home around DC, even if it's a member of the family. Quite a tricky situation when family are involved though so my sympathies. YANBU.

I hope the rehab works.

DonkeysInTheStableAtMidnight Thu 13-Dec-12 15:20:13

Unless you live in a very big house I don't know if I could consider this, sorry.

ImAlpharius Thu 13-Dec-12 15:20:19

YANBU can you go somewher with the children or could DP go with DB to his mums?

Can't he go to detox, people can be detoxed from heroin using other medication so they don't have to suffer all the side effects. Or get meds from the doctor so he doesn't go through withdrawal.

I wouldn't do this with a child in the house. Can someone stay with him in a hotel?

HappyJustToBe Thu 13-Dec-12 15:26:13

YANBU. Dependent on how supportive his DM it sounds like DB and DH going there may be the best idea. You sound brilliant for sticking by him but you're definitely right to protect your children from him.

NatashaBee Thu 13-Dec-12 15:26:46

God, no, i don't think you should have to use your house as a makeshift detox centre. 'Vomiting and sweating' is a pretty gentle description of what's actually involved. Can he take methadone or other medication, or is that also not allowed?

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 15:27:17

Moomin I will look into those drugs. I didn't know anything about that.

DP has to be here to work.

THe clinic is going to do the treatment but it's just for the flight that he needs to be clean. We are saving money by not doing this part of the treatment in the UK. He's getting implants here when he gets back though.

FreeButtonChristmasTree Thu 13-Dec-12 15:34:09

I probably wouldn't want my kids around when this was happening but I would arrange for them to be away for the time. It's key that your BIL is fit to fly and probably best for your DH to be on hand to really enforce and deal with this. Do you have your family near by or friends you could get to help out with the kids? Or someone you could go visit for that time?

Not really sure it would be appropriate to take your BIL to a hotel...

waltermittymistletoe Thu 13-Dec-12 15:34:29

Not with children in the house I'm afraid!

Can you take the children somewhere else for a few days? Is there nobody else who could do it?

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 15:44:35

Heroin detox can be dangerous. Is there a medical detox near you? I cannot stress this enough having worked in a rehab, YOU CANNOT TRUST HIM not to bring drugs or needles into your house. Absolutely not. Addicts lie. I would try to get him into a medical detox if there is one available. They will search him properly, which you will not.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 15:49:47

Hm, perhaps I'm being a bit naive. It's just that the clinics charge a fortune for this bit which is why we decided to do it abroad. He usually goes to his mum's for a few days which has always worked, but I can't risk him not being fit to fly. Also worried about 11 hours on a plane with him (and DS).

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease Thu 13-Dec-12 15:51:49

Shouldn't it be under medical supervision? I've been around people detoxing from severe alcoholism and had to call an ambulance before. Its always been with detox meds etc. No idea about heroin but can stopping suddenly be dangerous. Even if the clinic elsewhere are helping rehab him I'd be tempted to get help with the initial detox.

I take it he wants to come off?

TwitchyTail Thu 13-Dec-12 15:52:07

Can you get in touch with your local community drugs service for advice? It may be more sensible for him to organise a transfer onto methadone to prevent acute withdrawal and manage the plane journey, without having to go through extremely unpleasant "cold turkey" withdrawal beforehand. It is taken as a once-daily dose so once stable he could take it before he leaves for the airport and it will see him through the journey.

And no, I definitely would not want heroin withdrawal in my house with children around.

He shouldn't detox alone if he is taking it daily, he needs medication to wean himself off it, his body could go into shock. He needs to seek medical advice before he tries this.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 15:55:00

This is really making me think. I suppose I just assumed as I know he has done it lots of times before (and stayed clean for a week or two) that it would be ok.

As far as I know he has never even been to his GP to find out what's available.

THe methadone sounds a very good idea. He is vehemently anti-methadone because he does not see it as an improvement, but for this purpose it seems ideal.

omaoma Thu 13-Dec-12 15:57:45

Hey mamateur, no wise words but just wanted to send my appreciation for your generosity of spirit in wanting to help your BIL get better. thanks

ENormaSnob Thu 13-Dec-12 15:58:59

Yanbu at all.

No way would I have this in my home with children there.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 15:59:09

Thanks Omaoma smile and everyone. Very useful advice. I will talk to DP in a bit.

lightrain Thu 13-Dec-12 16:00:33

Frankly, there's no way on earth I would let him in the house with my young child. Yanbu in any way, shape or form. I wouldn't be that keen on taking a long plane journey with him either, to be honest.

You're great to support and stick by him but don't feel uncomfortable or bad for putting your children first in this situation.

I was going to ask about the flight. Will they let a sweating, agitated, vomitting man on a flight? (No direct experience so I don't know how long that stage lasts)

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease Thu 13-Dec-12 16:04:58

Why is he going abroad if he's never been to the Dr about it? I'd be tempted to see what provision is available through the drugs and alcohol teams here.

I'd also be slightly wary of him being abroad. Are you sure you will be able to get him back? Rather sadly my mother had to be sedated to fly home from a holiday once. I'm not sure how legal it was but there was no way they would have let her on the plane otherwise.

DonkeysInTheStableAtMidnight Thu 13-Dec-12 16:08:05

Shall PM you.

waltermittymistletoe Thu 13-Dec-12 16:16:45

He's never been to his GP about it? That's what he needs to do.

I've never met a heroin addict yet who is 'anti methadone'. A trip to the GP for a methadone prescription is usually par for the course with a serious heroin addiction, quite early on too.

Are you sure you are being given the full picture?

mam I worked in an nhs run inpatient detox centre a few years ago. Patients came in for 2 weeks usually methadone was used and slowly withdrawn over the 2 weeks, also other meds to stop the withdrawal symptoms.

I will try to post some details for you later when I have more time

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 16:32:02

Yes, getting him in a state to get on the flight is the problem we are facing. I just spoke to a brilliant drug counsellor who has opened my eyes a bit to the enormity of getting him off drugs. He definitely needs to start at his GP or a walk-in service of some description.

Donkeys, thanks will PM you back!

ledkr Thu 13-Dec-12 16:36:58

He should be able to detox in hospital with meds. He needs to talk to his worker. I also used to work for the drug service and I certainly wouldn't want anyone detoxing in my home and around children.
Medication can be used to make this less stressful for him.

ledkr Thu 13-Dec-12 16:39:20

You can take a tablet which detoxes him more quickly. It's naltrexone but needs to be used as an in patient.

PolterGoose Thu 13-Dec-12 16:48:00

MissKeithLemon, I've met lots of heroin users who are very anti Methadone hmm

Mamateur, glad you are seeking advice.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 17:03:51

He may have detoxed alone before but that doesn't make it 'safe'. Alcohol withdrawal is about the most dangerous, followed by heroin (IM not medical O). Sorry to scare you but people can die in detox/withdrawal without medical supervision. It is very physically addictive (unlike something like cocaine) so your body 'needs' it.

Also, if he has hepatitis, I wouldn't be very happy dealing with bodily fluids in my home. There may well be something like bloody vomit to cope with. Are you relatively happy with universal precautions and infection control? Hepatitis is actually the one that scared me working in addictions. HIV/AIDS is a pathetically weak bug that can't live o/s the body for very long. It is also well controlled with medication now in otherwise healthy people. Not so Hepatitis. Very robust transmission and nasty to treat.

Get as much medical advice as you can.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 17:21:38

Thanks all. Well, I've spoken to DP and he's quite dismissive of my fears. He does agree though that he can detox with his DM rather than here. I do have fears about infection control particularly because I'm rubbish at that sort of stuff anyway. He may well have HIV too, we don't know and he certainly hasn't been tested or had any treatment. He's pretty much outside the system.

DP says that he has detoxed with his DM loads of times at his has always been fine, also that this time will be very important to him because he is desperate for this trip and this chance we're giving him so wouldn't mess up. I don't agree.

He does agree, a bit, about getting him some treatment before he goes but there's only a month now with xmas in-between. The drug clinic here have said they will prescribe him naltrexone (thanks Ledkr) or we can buy it to make the journey safer. I'm going to call his brother but don't hold out much hope.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 17:44:10

he is desperate for this trip and this chance we're giving him so wouldn't mess up Nope. You are right. It is not because he is a bad person, but because drugs are far more important right now than you, your children, your husband, his mother, anything.

I don't want to scare you actually I want to scare your DH but the worst case scenario... He comes to your house, hides a needle because that is what people do, your DC gets a needle stick and has to have a course of HIV/AIDS meds or gets hepititis, SS get involved because you allowed this to happen.

I worked in addictions for a long time. The people are wonderful when they are in healthy recovery. However, when they are in the grip of addiction, they cannot be trusted, their word means nothing. Be careful because BIL will not have the same priorities you do.

If he is really against methadone subutex can be used, lots of people slowly decrease the dose of this and then go on to naltrexone Which is used to block the effects of heroin.

He really needs to see a gp or you could phone your local drug and alcohol team, there should be one in your area that sees people as out patients

Sorry ex post with you, yes that's a good start.

I'd be very weary of having him in the house, it's surprising what lengths people go to to smuggle drugs into detox even when they want to be there.

No it doesn't mean he's a bad person, drugs take hold and become the most important thing. At the time nothing else matters

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 18:30:01

MrsTerry, I know. He is consumed by his addiction, no-one else really matters. He was visiting once and offered to go out to get milk for DS late at night because we had run out, took a fiver and came back with a pack of tenants super. He had forgotten the milk of course!

He is definitely not withdrawing here, DP agrees.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 18:36:00

Fantastic. I'm glad he will be somewhere else. Is he also withdrawing from alcohol? That can be even more dangerous.

The other thing to think about is getting some counselling for the other people in the family. The rehab may offer this. Your DH sounds torn, his DM will be as well. Very important if this is the moment for him to get into recovery that everyone is ready. The dynamic of the family may be very unhealthy if it has been distorted by his addiction for a long time.

The fiver story is untypical, in that he actually came back, not that he spent the money on something else...

StuntGirl Thu 13-Dec-12 18:37:16

I think your partner is being a bit blind to the practicalities of what you're attempting to undertake. That said I think you're both being wonderful to try and help your brother in law. But please put yourselves and your children first.

waltermittymistletoe Thu 13-Dec-12 18:39:41

Oh that's good news mamateur

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease Thu 13-Dec-12 19:16:39

I'm still unsure why you're saying for him to go abroad when you've not looked for medical help here? I'd really be anxious about an addict lo a different country myself.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 19:26:50

CanI, well the plan (not mine, mine would have been much better) was that we could save on the overall cost of the treatment by taking him abroad for the withdrawal, which is the 'easy' bit. He has only left the country once and we thought it would make a bit impression, help him change direction.

We are taking him here.

The detox in the UK costs thousands, this way it only costs the flights, a donation and we get a holiday (it's our honeymoon actually blush). THen we will pay for proper rehab in the UK with the blocker implants and counselling.

DonkeysInTheStableAtMidnight Thu 13-Dec-12 19:40:17

Amazing area for a honeymoon!

Is BIL quite a spiritual person?

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 19:55:59

I wouldn't say he was spiritual. I'm trying to think what I would say. He is very intelligent, was academic, loves film, reads, etc. To look at him, when he's had a shower, you would never know. He is strong and good looking. He doesn't do crime, works in a manual job and lives on his money. Arrogant, he feels he's better the your average junkie, and I think that's what took us to this place in Thailand. I hope he might respect them. And have an 'experience' that will change his life.

He (and DP actually) had a very traumatic event when they were in their twenties. I also think he has lived in DP's shadow (year older, much cleverer, sportier, etc.) and is sick of falling short. He needs faith in himself.

To be frank, I put our chances at 50/50. THere's no more, if this fails. I'm doing this because I just can't bear the thought of his mother losing another child (we are already bringing up her daughter's son sad).

Rudolphstolemycarrots Thu 13-Dec-12 19:59:14

Can you lay the problem at the GP's door?

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 20:05:20

Well, I am going to try to get him to see his GP before we leave. It's frustrating because I am a step away - DP is organising it. My way of doing it would be to frog march him to a clinic, oversee the whole thing, summon all the troops. But I don't have that mandate. I talked to DP tonight about phoning his DB to talk to him about getting in the uk system and seeing what's available = brick wall. The two weeks will finish, and he will still live on a crack-soaked estate where everyone he knows is part of his 'old' life. Pointless! I don't think he'll listen though.

He did manage to get a passport organised though (old one roached!)

MyLittleAprilSunshine Thu 13-Dec-12 20:21:41

My Dad works with people on a number of different drugs in different stages of their addiction and I hate to be cynical, but you cannot trust a heroin addict 1.) not to take drugs themselves 2.) not to bring needles or other para into the house 3.) to not act aggressive or threatening. Withdrawal is one of the worst things to watch someone go through and I would be extremely distressed as a 22 year old, I can't imagine how a young child and teenager would handle it.

Is there any possibility your DH could be with him in your house and you could stay with another family member or a friend for a few days? I know it's not ideal, but the way someone in that situation can behave can be very frightening, unpredictable and they may not always tell the truth or stick to their limitations.

I hope things get sorted for him. Does he actually want to come off heroin? After all, if he doesn't want to come off himself he wont. He needs to get to the stage he hates being on it, absolutely hates it.

I wish you good luck smile

MyLittleAprilSunshine Thu 13-Dec-12 20:28:56

DP sorry, not DH.

^ Although looks like you will be soon.

Sorry to hear about your DMILs loss of her daughter and some other horrible stuff that has happened to partner and his brother.

IWishIWasSheRa Thu 13-Dec-12 20:32:10

Just read all this and wanted to wish you all the best, you've had so much to deal with, hope things get easier soon

suburbophobe Thu 13-Dec-12 20:32:19

Why are you taking it on yourself actually to be responsible for this when you have 2 DCs to take care of?

No way I would want this in my home, my first responsibility is to my DC. (they cannot chose what happens to them, I can).

Why does he need to "run away" for this on an 11 hour flight? (and yes, he may not be let on board if he is not "clean" beforehand).

Thing about "running away" for treatment, you still have to come home to the same-old, same-old when you get back.

Why waste all that money?

There must be places closer to home where he can get this treatment. By starting at his GP.

And yes, from what I've heard of methodone as a treatment for heroin addiction, it is replacing one addiction with the other, it's common knowledge really.
(neighbour a doctor who works in that).

Thing is, if your DH wants to help his brother, he should go ahead <and not involve you and your DC in it!>

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 21:16:44

Why are you taking it on yourself actually to be responsible for this when you have 2 DCs to take care of?

Easy. Because I am/we are capable of doing it and can afford it. I take it upon myself to do all I can. I have taken in one extra child already and will take in another one if it's needed and I'm in a position to do it well.

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease Thu 13-Dec-12 21:25:38

But shouldn't working with doctors here in the UK be the first port of call? Honestly its unlikely that a 2 week trip would have made any difference to those addicts I'm aware of. They'd need a whole package of care in the here and now. (for example mum had detox drugs then a residential then Mon to Fri full days in a centre. Also given a support worker etc) its a long term huge life issue to deal with. This is all on the nhs.

I think addiction and the lifestyle is a whole complex mess and needs quite a complex package to manage in many cases.

The person has to want to change. They could be going to their gp, getting refered to drugs and alcohol team etc. With your support.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 21:27:19

One of the issues to think about is if he decides to leave the Monastery, Thailand is a bloody dangerous place for an addict.

I used to work in an NHS rehab, unfortunately closed now. We saw lots of people from private rehabs, people who had done fancy rehab time. What they needed was boundaries and no bullshit. Supplied in large amounts by the NHS.

It might be worth asking your BIL why is comparing himself favourably with other addicts/'junkies' rather than with other people who don't use. I always used to wonder about the people I worked with who were dismissive of the other clients. I used to ask them, "so, you think you're better than everyone here? Why are you here then, not somewhere better?"

WeAreSix Thu 13-Dec-12 21:32:16

I can't offer any better advice, but wanted to wish you all well. You sound strong and determined stubborn like me I really hope this works for you and your extended family b

WeAreSix Thu 13-Dec-12 21:32:50

No idea where the extra b came from, sorry!!

crochetfish Thu 13-Dec-12 21:32:58

I work in with drug users and I think you've been given some sound advice already but I would strongly suggest you establish a relationship with the local drug team prior to rehab and put together a clear package of support ready for after rehab.
Also in the area I work funding for several months in rehab is accessible to our clients as is after care. You might find you can get something like this too.
I wish you all every success with your plans and your DPs brother's recovery.

crochetfish Thu 13-Dec-12 21:34:33

No idea where the extra 'in' came from!

Smithson6 Thu 13-Dec-12 21:48:13

Another one here who has worked extensively with addicts and i strongly second MrsT's comments about hepatitis- its very infectious and the treatment is awful awful awful. Be mindful of that and take precautions when you are with him.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 21:52:17

I have had some very good advice, and will follow it as far as I can, although I'm not calling all the shots. I spoke to several drug workers this evening who have suggested possible treatments. My plan is to get him to his GP and get him signed up on a programme.

MrsTerry, you are right of course. I suppose ultimately he knows he low, but comforts himself by thinking he is not the lowest of the low! Actually he is decent person and he has been through some bad stuff. I also know, from bringing up DN, how much of this is down to poor parenting. I believe he can be fixed, but if it doesn't work, at least we tried.

I'm sure they'll let him leave the monastery if he wants to - you have to be there of your own free will for it to work. He's a grown man after all, and can make his own decisions.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 21:52:50

What precautions should I take? He definitely has Hep, and we can't rule out HIV.

DorsetKnobwithJingleBellsOn Thu 13-Dec-12 21:57:00

Lofexodine also helps with the symptoms of withdrawal.

Good luck.

Smithson6 Thu 13-Dec-12 22:22:22

Just be wary of vomit, blood, saliva and other bodily fluids. Be careful of and keep separate his toothbrushes, razors and so on. If you find yourself in a situation where he has puked or is bleeding etc. clean up very well and very carefully. Use gloves. Personally i would be much more wary of hepatitis than HIV -as MrsT says the HIV virus doesn't last long outside the body but Hepatitis is a persistent little fucker.

Smithson6 Thu 13-Dec-12 22:25:07

and addicts are always looking down on each other in my experience. The crack smokers look down on the heroin smokers who look down on the heroin injectors who look down on the chronic junkies. very common behavior.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 22:25:13

As I said earlier, HIV/AIDS is not the issue. Essentially, if you are protecting yourself from hepatitis, you are also protecting yourself from HIV. No contact at all with bodily fluids without non-porous gloves. Don't share anything with the potential for blood (toothbrushes, razors etc.). Bleach mixed with water 1:9 at least to clean up bodily fluids. I would be very aware of laundry because I used to see a lot of blood doing that. Also, watch for needles hidden (picture rail, in sheets, pillow cases. Don't search, even with gloves for them without visually doing it first. Then a shake out. A needle will easily go through those gloves. Hep C can live in blood on a non-porous surface for DAYS. HIV is dead by the time it hits the surface.

Little things. Sweet food can be comforting for people coming off opiates. He may get some very bad bowel stuff happening because opiates are constipating. He will need to manage this. Flu-like symptoms. It is worse than it sounds because most opiate addicts have tried to 'feel no pain' for years so suffer much worse than someone who wasn't in this addiction.

Family stuff. His parenting might have been awful, he may have had trauma, there are reasons for his addiction. However, he chooses to use. Reasons are not excuses and your DH and MIL have been trained for years to feel love, guilt, worry, concern. This has helped him stay in addiction and them staying assisting him. None of this is healthy and they will all need to relearn habits. Your DH may have real issues with things like not being the golden child (just an example). They will all need to learn healthy patterns. Have any of them had groups or counselling?

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 22:25:47

x-posted with Smithson

ISpyDingDongMerrilyOnHigh Thu 13-Dec-12 22:27:08

Nothing I can add to the excellent advice you've had, but just wanted to say that I think you and your DP are doing a really generous thing. I wish you all the best and hope that your BIL gets the help he needs to recover.

Mamateur Thu 13-Dec-12 22:45:34

MrsTerry, thanks for that info. He will be at his DM's to withdraw, but will have to come to us at least the day before we travel. I hope to avoid the sweat and vomit phase. The reason I started this thread is because I don't want DS around that.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Thu 13-Dec-12 22:58:11

What about travel jabs for Thailand and anti-malarial medication? Travel insurance? I don't know why I'm so worried. I did get hospitalised in Thailand so I know it can happen.

Just be careful and take care of yourself. Also, I know I sound paranoid... on the way home pack your own bags and don't let him near them for any time at all. Get rose ties on the zips so you know if the bag has been opened.

quoteunquote Thu 13-Dec-12 23:46:16

I can see many many things that can go wrong with all stages of your plan,

no part of the plan replicates successful recovery programs,

Which would be fine, because you could then try again with different methods,

Except you are locating the vital part of the plan in a country that has a death penalty for drugs, because drugs are so readily available.

the place you have chosen, has had people flee and get into serious difficulties, there problems that come afterwards when returning to home environment,

please get some specialist advice, and I recommend that you find a funded program here that provides ongoing support which will insure it is a permeant solution, where medical support is available,

any travel insurance you try to take out will be invalid as if you don't declare the addiction, it won't be valid should you go to claim,

I understand the desperation, and the lure of what appeals as solution,

Sometimes when a love one is endless hopeless addled addicted life, it's easy to latch on to what seems one stop wonder to end something that dominates the whole of family life.

please please get specialist advice, you may not like what you hear, it's frustrating, but you all need to go and really listen to how best to help your BiL.

Yes see if you can get him to see someone who can prescribe something to help with the detox.

If he's on meds it will be easier on him and those around him and if you can control the symptoms of withdrawral mil will be less likely to come into contact with any bodily fluids which will help with the hep risk

I second all of the above ^^

It sounds like a mad plan, ill thought through and potentially fraught with danger.

TinyDancingHoofer Fri 14-Dec-12 00:15:06

OP you sound really lovely. I don't have any advice but a friend's mother went to a rehab in thailand and has been clean for a couple of years now so have hope it may all end well. Good luck.

ilovesooty Fri 14-Dec-12 00:28:23

I work in the drug intervention programme and I second all the comments about the risks and danger associated with this course of action.

I simply can't understand why he isn't in treatment with your local, funded community drug team who would offer detox and rehab options within a planned recovery journey.

And I honestly think mixing your honeymoon in a country like Thailand with someone addicted to Class A substances is so dangerous it's unbelievable that you're even considering it.

sugarandspite Fri 14-Dec-12 01:50:47

Mamateur - please forgive me, I may have you totally confused with another poster but your name rings a bell. Is it your DPs mother who used to have DN living with her until it became clear that she couldn't maintain appropriate routines / boundaries / healthy discipline etc?

If this is the case, are you truly confident that she will be able to apply such behaviours to managing your BILs short term detox? Can she be trusted to stand strong in the face of begging / lying / manipulating?

And just one final thought - your honeymoon should be a time for laughing, loving, dreaming up your future and focusing totally on your little family unit. Following your current plan will not allow you to do this - you will be constantly thinking and worrying about what BIL is up to.

Please don't allow your kindness and generosity to make you miss out on what should be such a special time.

I believe there is a reason most newlywed couples do not choose to take a drug-addicted sibling on honeymoon with them.

TenPercenter Fri 14-Dec-12 02:51:02

Sugarandspite your last sentence really made me giggle. You do sound like a lovely person Mamateur, I hate the attitude of "I have procreated, therefore no bugger else matters".

If you are planning on paying for treatment/implants/counselling when he comes back, would it not be more sensible to this beforehand? Obviously it would be too late for much now, but could he not withdraw before xmas and maybe get the implant?

Much sympathies for your whole family dealing with this. My sister was a heroin addict for a few years, I didn't have much contact because I was young, but She did manage to beat it and is fine now smile.

Mamateur Fri 14-Dec-12 07:35:54

I realise the plan is unconventional. It is combined with a proper plan at a rehab unit in London where he will have counselling and blockers etc. We are just outsourcing the first bit to Thailand. If we did this bit with the clinic we are using here it would cost thousands. For several reasons, it specifically appeals to D choice.

If he runs off, gets caught with drugs and ends up in the Bangkok Hilton, that will be that. I mean, as I said, earlier,he is a grown man. I have to say I am not emotionally involved here as we are not close at all. We want to help and we can afford it, so we're prepared to give him one shot. I don't think it's dangerous for us.

However, I am not an idiot, I am getting advice from people directly involved in these programmes here, so I will not ignore them. I started this thread yesterday because DP booked the flights so it has become more real. We had to defer our wedding till when we get back. We don't do too badly for holiday so there will be other times.

The insurance is a VERY good point. I will look into that today. Jabs no problem though, surely we just get them.

Tiny, that's great! This place has a good success rate, but wherever you go there are always a lot of fails.

sugar yes that's me! DN is now a thriving, happy, confident teen. Well, he has his moments, but he's doing well at school and has a really good circle of friends. DP's DM is not to be relied on, of course, but he has withdrawn at her house many times before, without problem. It's just that I don't want him here.

I'm now thinking of booking him in a unit where we live here, then picking him up on the way to the airport. Will look at costs. The thing is, this is a chance we're giving him, but the rest is entirely up to him, if he wants to mess it up then he knows what's at stake.

I am not ignoring advice. I'll be working on some options today and will update. Thanks.

Mamateur Fri 14-Dec-12 07:41:36

Tenpercenter, thanks. I agree! I'm glad your sister recovered.

I hate to think people are worrying about me or us. We are all very seasoned travellers and know the area. We are travelling with DS so everything will be safe, we're not exactly roughing it either. I will though, let DP guide his db through the airport etc. while I look after DS.

I suppose some of you are concerned that his DB will bring drugs with him. I won't leave this to chance.

I think if you can booking him in a unit to detox before you go would be a really good idea. The more support he ha the better his chances are. I hope it works out for you all.

Mamateur Fri 14-Dec-12 11:30:44

We've been talking about that this morning, Moomins. I obviously have doubts about how successful this can be, but as with all DP's family, it is hard to help people who are so convinced they are right about everything.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Fri 14-Dec-12 16:02:33

I'm feeling a bit less worried now because you seem to have accepted that, should the worst happen, he is on his own. Keep in mind that the Thai Police will know that you are all travelling together. I'm sure you've heard the horror stories, knowing the area.

I mentioned the travel jobs because your BIL may not think about it and you don't want him going to Thailand and getting the other hepatitis. Insureance is a worry.

FWIW, try to research (actually get BIL or DH to) housing after treatment. People have a massively higher success rate if they are in appropriate, supported housing after treatment.

acceptableinthe80s Fri 14-Dec-12 16:51:21

Op I think you need to look into vaccinations asap if you're traveling in the new year. I'm no expert but think they have to be given x weeks in advance along with the malaria course. A friend of mine is currently in a coma with malaria and the outcome does'nt look good. Please don't take any chances.

cory Fri 14-Dec-12 18:47:07

Don't go anywhere if you haven't got insurance sorted. My BIL and his wife had a horrible time in Florida when they realised MIL hadn't declared her cancer to the insurance company: they were stuck with this sick woman who was suddenly completely paralysed and in pain and had no money to either bring her home early or pay for hospital treatment. I accept you are saying that he's on is own if he runs away or commits a crime- but what if he simply falls very ill and the insurance company refuse to cough up- could you shrug your shoulders and declare that he's on his own?

quoteunquote Sat 15-Dec-12 16:44:51

www.12steptreatmentcentres.com/Centres/Broadway_Lodge_44505.asp

ring them and have a chat, they also know about funding,and provide support for all the family.

faustina Sat 15-Dec-12 18:53:02

please be careful. I have direct experience of someone who did something very similar - at least that was the plan, except he came here to the uk to do the detox. I think he'd been clean about 36 hours. It was a long flight for him too. The clinic said it wasn't usually dangerous to quit suddenly like that - not dangerous like it is for alcoholics for instance. He was dozing, waiting for the taxi at Heathrow, and then suddenly he wasn't dozing anymore. The paramedics arrived. then he went into cardiac arrest. That was 18 months ago. He has a profound brain injury now. A full recovery is not expected. He had quit before, like your BIL, with no problems. They don't know if it was the long long flight, plus the withdrawal, but they suspect it might have been. Please think again

Footface Sat 15-Dec-12 19:45:06

I just wanted to add a bit about my bil, he's been an addict ( heroin and crack) for the best part of 20 years.

He is currently not welcome I'm our home as he came round once drugged up to the eye balls. Drugs have consumed the best part of his life so far. He has lost a lot through taking drugs

So far I think he's been in six rehab places, some outreach some residential in the last three years alone. This time he's been clean for about 6 months. It's only in the last 4 months that he has slightly become aware that others have feelings or emotions. Because the drugs are all consuming he really hasn't cared about anyone else.

He will say now that he wasn't ready previously to give up drugs because he couldn't, he used to blame the rehab programes but is now honest enough to say that actually he really enjoyed taking drugs particularly heroin and even through he told everyone he desperately wanted to give up, he didn't really and was just biding him time to get his next hit

I suppose my point is he's had so many fails to get where he is now, I really hope rehab works for your bil but in my experience they need a variety of support on their doorstep

Mamateur Sun 16-Dec-12 14:53:13

Thanks for all the advice on this thread. We are going up to see his DB this week and talk to him about organising a controlled withdrawal. We have never suggested rehab to him, I don't think anyone else has either. This is the first and only time he has ever asked for help but my concern is that this answer is a bit of a Disney answer for him.

My biggest worry is his behaviour on the plane as he won't have his tenants or fags let alone anything stronger, but ultimately he will be on his own if he decides to make life difficult for himself. I won't be wringing my hands over him, and I'm also prepared to just stay home with DS if I'm not happy with the way things are planned.

cantreachmytoes Sun 16-Dec-12 15:13:42

I have no experience with addicts so have nothing to add on that front, but I have travelled a lot and there is something screaming out of all of this: travelling with an addict to Thailand.

You need to be absolutely certain that he has no access to your, or DS's bags at any time, or coat pockets etc.: there is a reason people entering treatment centres are searched. Never mind what he gets up to when he's there and you're honeymooning, you need to be sure to get on the honeymoon and that it's not you or DP in the Bangkok Hilton.

Please be very, very careful.

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease Sun 16-Dec-12 15:26:42

I would be having serious second thoughts about this. I think its quite dangerous for him to be in Thailand for all the reasons above (and its not "real" life could be escapism etc) and really if he's serious about wanting to stop you can go full speed ahead with all the UK NHS provision and working on a long term plan with rehab etc.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles Thu 24-Jan-13 02:57:05

Wondering how you got on, Mamateur, is DP now DH? Were you able to enjoy your honeymoon? How's BIL?

Best wishes.

Astelia Thu 24-Jan-13 03:13:58

I have just come across this thread Mamateur. I do hope it is working out for all of you.

mamateur Wed 13-Feb-13 21:13:04

Thanks for checking in on me!

Well, actually, things have gone well. DP's brother was at our house for two nights before we left for our holiday. He had a pill to take to deal with the withdrawal (just one, nothing to take with him). I made him scrub himself pink and bought him nail clippers, razors and a new set of clothes. He was in a bad way on the flight but he stayed quiet and coped. He told me he was devastated he had wasted 13 years of his life and didn't intend to waste a single day more.

We took him to the monastery who were incredibly efficient and knowledgable about addiction.

We had a lovely holiday then picked him up two weeks later and he had one night in a five star hotel which he loved - before returning to his life in London. We talked to him a lot, but our expectations were low, since he was returning to his old scene.

Since then he has called us a lot. He is still clean (we know this) and about to start a TEFL. He has a very long way to go.

Thanks to all the poster who gave us great advice, M

Corygal Wed 13-Feb-13 21:15:54

Well done all of you - what great news.

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