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to not follow the 48 hour D&V rule, because no one cares?

(55 Posts)

Okay so I have been brainwashed advised by countless MN threads that it's incredibly selfish to take your DC to school or other things without waiting 48 hours after D&V.

I thought this would be universal advice, but now I find myself living in a place where people seem a lot less worried about it.

Last week DS had some mild D&V -- he threw up a few times and had some diarrhea but was not really sick otherwise, was still happy and bouncing around.

My DH thought he should still go to the childminder on the second day, when he didn't throw up at all, but I said no because it hadn't been 48 hours. She also looks after a baby and a little girl who seems to get ill a lot so I thought that was fair enough.

Except, then DH had to take DS to the doctor to get a sick note (so DH could take off work) and the doctor said no, there's no 48 hour rule. And it turns out our childminder would have been fine with having him.

So in future, AIBU to not follow the 48 hour rule, because it's not actually a rule here?

(I'm in France btw)

takataka Thu 13-Dec-12 10:58:37

i think it is a 'rule' impossed/not impossed by the child care setting

really interesting that you dont have it in France

(i tend to think its a bit bollocks, but follow it anyway)

EdithWeston Thu 13-Dec-12 10:58:52

If the CM has a 48 hour rule, then the rule is there.

GPs only provide sick notes for illnesses over one week; so that's a bit of a red herring. You self-certify for periods shorter than at, whatever the cause.

I saw a report today saying that this years norovirus outbreak is the worst for many years, and public health officials are saying that the 48 hours are vital in slowing the spread.

flowerytaleofNewYork Thu 13-Dec-12 11:01:59

How would your doctor know what rules your childminder has? confused If her terms are that she won't take children who've had D&V within 48 hours, then that's the rule, surely?

MarthasHarbour Thu 13-Dec-12 11:03:21

Follow the CM's rule. Our nursery say 24 hours after the last episode of vomiting. If your CM is happy with 24 hours then so be it.

But then i would also always respect another CM/nursery/schools rule if they say 48 hours. Its not worth it otherwise, how would you feel if you LO was constantly ill because other parents didnt respect the rule.

I am sitting on the fence here, as we always go for 24 hours as that is the nursery guide.

manicinsomniac Thu 13-Dec-12 11:05:02

It's usually 24 round here, 48 seems a little excessive

MarthasHarbour Thu 13-Dec-12 11:05:20

and i am speaking as a mama on day 3 of DS's vomiting bug, he still hasnt eaten and is still just sipping water, he is not well, so if other LOs are more vulnerable then - well i would say 48 hours. I think edithwestons advice about stopping the spread is spot on

Ephiny Thu 13-Dec-12 11:06:32

If the doctor says it's fine, and the CM is OK with it, then it doesn't sound like there is any 'rule' confused.

Maybe you could have phoned the CM to check?

Whatistodaysname Thu 13-Dec-12 11:07:52

I kept DS off - but then he hates school anyway and I love having him home!

School has a published policy of 48 hours.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Thu 13-Dec-12 11:12:06

My DS's nursery has a 48 hour rule. But DD's school has only a 24 hour rule. It's difficult to know what to do for the best so I'd just follow the rule of your CM. My DC's were in a creche in France while we were on holiday and they had a 24 hour rule (I know as my DS got sick while we were there).

Well, this is my dilemma really -- I do see that waiting 48 hours is a good idea to keep bugs from spreading, but if DS doesn't really seem sick at all, is it overkill? Should I still follow the rule if I don't have to?

To be clear, I wouldn't send DS if he were still obviously sick, but he was totally fine.

Edith -- we're not in the UK so the sick leave rules are different

Ephiny -- agree we would normally have checked with the CM but for various long and boring reasons we had to decide what to do when she wasn't reachable

Goldmandra Thu 13-Dec-12 11:12:38

The childcare setting generally follow the advice published by the Health Protection Agency which is probably the most reliable advice available as to how to reduce transmission of these horrible bugs.

I always follow the 49 hour rule and will also follow the 2 week swimming rule now I know about it.

I should add, I'm glad to hear some places just have 24 hour rules, I didn't know that.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Thu 13-Dec-12 11:16:29

I think it does depend how sick they were as well. My DD vomited once in bed last week and I kept her off school one day only as she was fine afterwards. She almost certainly didn't have a virus. If she'd had ongoing D and V I'd be more likely to err on the side of 48 hours, even though rule is 24.

hazeyjane Thu 13-Dec-12 11:18:56

It was a 48 hour rule when I was in hospital and there was a d+v bug going around the wards. So I always assumed it was advised by the nhs.

Is it different in France because it is standard to vaccinate against rotavirus?

bradywasmyfavouritewiseman Thu 13-Dec-12 11:20:20

Its not a law. Its a rule that CMS, nurseries and schools have. But not all.

Its the rule at our school as is the current medical advice (dd has had norovirus this winter) so I follow it.

If the rule isn't there at your cm don't follow it.

Goldmandra Thu 13-Dec-12 11:35:58

It's not just about whether the child will be sick again. It's also about the bugs remaining in their system being transmitted to others, especially in Early Years settings because children are not good at hand washing.

ToffeeCaramel Thu 13-Dec-12 11:54:22

The 48 hour rule is advised by the UK NHS. It's on their website. Are there no guidelines in France at all?

goldenlula Thu 13-Dec-12 12:00:05

Our school it is 24 hours from the last bout of sickness/ diarrhoea.

I don't know whether there's a national guideline for France (no NHS equivalent) -- I admit, my experience here is totally anecdotal.

It can be a lot more difficult to take off work here when your child is sick, so perhaps that's why they are more flexible about it?

Most people these days are hired on short-term contracts which often give you no provision for leave in case of child illness. You have to rely on your employer's goodwill (unless you are a single parent, in which case legally they have to give you leave).

zzzzz Thu 13-Dec-12 12:09:53

My dd is epileptic, the consequences for us of D&V bugs are that she doesn't absorb her meds. If she has seizures unmedicated the consequences can be death, brain damage, injury, this can lead to prolonged stays in hospital, which makes life very difficult for her siblings. sad

Obviously we can't live in a bubble, but the 48 hr rule does reduce the number of D&V bugs.

MrsKeithRichards Thu 13-Dec-12 12:14:14

I think you need to use a bit of common sense, one spew isn't a bug, 24 hours as a precaution is ample.

zzzzz, it's stories like yours that have me wondering whether I should do 48 hours even if I don't 'have' to.

As I said, I feel like the other two mindees are a bit vulnerable to bugs.

On the other hand, our childminder has been doing this for ages and is great, I don't think she would say it isn't a problem if she thought it could be.

Agreed, Mrskeith -- in this case, DS was sick one night, then twice the next day, and had a bit of diarrhea; then he was fine for two days, then he threw up again. So definitely had something or other.

It was tricky mostly because he was completely unbothered by it, except for not eating very much he was his usual happy self.

We felt a bit silly the second day he was off because he was obviously not sick at all, it was just precautionary.

bigbadbarry Thu 13-Dec-12 12:20:44

Our school imposes a 24 hour rule not 48, so i assume it is discretionary not set in stone.

hazeyjane Thu 13-Dec-12 12:25:57

Well I guess it is not set in stone, but it is an nhs guideline - from the nhs website.

'Vomiting and diarrhoea. Children with these conditions should be kept off school. They can return 48 hours after their symptoms disappear. Most cases of vomiting or diarrhoea get better without treatment, but if symptoms persist, consult your GP. Learn more in Rotavirus gastroenteritis'

LucyLui25 Thu 13-Dec-12 12:33:58

It's usually a case of 48 hrs in a nursery/cm etc as children are much younger and tend to put things in their mouth and cannot manage their own personal hygiene. For staff within these settings its usually 24hrs (as staff shouldnt be putting toys in their mouth, and always wash their hands) I believe schools and probably pre schools are 24 hr for the same reason, that the children should be better equiped to manage their hygiene, however i don't think there is an actual harda nd fast rule!

Tailtwister Thu 13-Dec-12 12:52:00

We have a 48h rule at ds1's school. There have been numerous notices up to remind people of it and several emails from the school nurse, so clearly the message still isn't getting through. Ds1 was off for a week to ensure we met the 48h exclusion. It really annoys me when others don't do the same. The rule is there for a reason and yet again some selfish parents think it doesn't apply to them. Consequently, it's spread through the place like wildfire.

Yanbu to think it op. I felt the same way.

BatCave Thu 13-Dec-12 12:52:32

I would follow it. From my own experience it's people in the community bringing in these bugs to hospital because they "feel fine" that is half the problem with vulnerable hospitalised people getting sick and ward closures that cost the NHS a lot of money each year. Our hospital advice is 48 hours after last symptoms, ad that is what infection control go by with regards to opening/ keeping wards closed/patients isolated. This costs so I don't think they'd do it if they didn't need to. It's not something solely seen in childcare

Hmm.

Do you think it matters what the setting is, i.e., childminder vs nursery vs school?

I wonder if it's not as bad sending him to a childminder within 48 hours, as she can keep a better eye on him, make sure he washes his hands a lot, etc. Also she will know if any of the other children are also sick or vulnerable.

zzzzz Thu 13-Dec-12 14:15:56

It's just Maths really, 48 hrs after the last time you vomit/poo you are far less likely to pass on the lurgy. The other thing that helps enormously is washing hands before food and after toileting, and changeing clothes after sickness.

I'm a little shock MrsKR, why do you think 24hrs is fine? You are not less infectious just because you feel well. hmm

I agree it is a total pain. I have a large family and it is infuriating how many days are wasted on this. But we sadly get to be the cautionary tale family.

On a more personal note, small children can be really knocked by D&V bugs and will undoubtably recover faster given space to rest.

hazeyjane Thu 13-Dec-12 14:50:27

I don't think it makes any difference if it cm, nursery, school, work or any other public place tbh.

As I said earlier, it is 48 hours in hospital, despite constant handwashing and use of handgels.

wheredidiputchristmas Thu 13-Dec-12 15:02:35

I go with either 48hr rule or until Dc have eaten properly as I don't see the point of sending them back to school until they are better.

Both my eldest and youngest have had D & V this week and neither were well enough to go to school after 24 h.

Jelly15 Thu 13-Dec-12 16:38:56

"Dreaming" What if the childminder then gets sick because you thought it was ok, as she can keep a better eye on him, then she gets sick beacuse of children coming back to soon after D&V, then you have no childcare and have to take even more time off. Really selfish attitude as the childminder probably has no income for those days she is ill and might have been avoidable.

OTTMummA Thu 13-Dec-12 17:05:30

Just because your child is fine with being sick, doesn't mean that everyone else they spread it to will cope just as well, you wouldn't or rather shouldn't think it's ok to spread chickenpox to vulnerable people just because your LO is coping with it just fine. IMVHO d&v stricken people should be on lock down until 48hrs. It is 24 hrs for one instance in the food industry, 48hrs after the last instance if sick more than once. I really dislike these selfish people who don't care who catches every bug that runs through them or their children.

zzzzz Thu 13-Dec-12 17:40:42

How will she "know if any other children are sick or vulnerable"? She doesn't know every cousin, friend, neighbour, pg Aunty her charges come in contact with.

Well, this is why I'm asking what people think, exactly because I don't want to be selfish.

zzzz I just meant at least the childminder will know if any the kids he comes into direct contact with are already sick (her kids and the other mindees).

It just feels a bit odd, if the childminder says she's happy to have him, and he hasn't been sick for a day, to insist he stay home, especially because sometimes that will mean losing a day's pay.

I would still do so, if people think that's really the right thing to do, that's why I'm soliciting thoughts.

rednailpolish Sat 15-Dec-12 20:24:56

i think you should observe the 48 h rule!
kids particulary are infectious for up to 72 hours after the last incidence of D&V, it also wipes them out and so sending them to school is a bit harsh. But mainly, its really not ok to spread it about! D&V is very serious for some people, you would not be aware if there were any vulnerable children your child is coming into contact with... for example, my friends child had leukemia and bugs and illness had very serious consequences for her and her treatment... some things are more important than losing a days pay or missing a day of school... just because some people dont observe the advice doesnt mean its not good advice to follow

Booboostoo Sat 15-Dec-12 21:24:01

French guidelines on return to school/creche for a variety of illnesses here:
www.nouvelon.ca/partenaires/documents/en_route_vers_la_maternelle.pdf

It's 48 hours for D&V.

(the French have an insane bureaucracy, it would be very surprising if they didn't have something like this in writing, although they do have poor internet access for all these documents).

Booboostoo Sat 15-Dec-12 21:24:21

Sorry should have said, it's on page 22.

BartletForTeamGB Sat 15-Dec-12 21:27:03
Startail Sat 15-Dec-12 21:46:22

48 is new, pointless in schools unless you are the first person to be ill as the bugs bounce round utterly regardless.

Clearly it makes sense to avoid taking bug to work or for my lot to go to Guides where everyone else goes to different schools to them, in a totally different town.

Ah thank you booboo, that's interesting

Yes don't get me started on French bureaucracy! grin

MsElleTow Sat 15-Dec-12 21:56:28

It's no wonder that Norovirus is rife when people don't follow the infection control guidance given out by the health protection agency!

If my DC's school, nursery, or childminder told me it was OK to send them back less that 48 hours after D&V I would find out who to report them do so they could be given the information on why it is dangerous to allow this!

ProudAS Sun 16-Dec-12 15:36:13

48 hour rule seems to be a British thing - in some parts of world they only advise adults to stay off work for this length of time if handling food or working in high risk environment such as a nursing home. Could be different for children who are much more tactile and not so good with hygiene though.

CakeInMyFace Sun 16-Dec-12 16:10:35

Norovirus can live on surfaces for up to two weeks and can be spread several days after the last bout of sickness. My friends with children usually allow 72 hours before coming into contact with anyone. It is highly contagious. We had it last year and every single member of my family got it one by one.

As others have said just because you or your child feels fine doesn't mean they are no longer contagious. If everyone was more diligent maybe these bugs would not be so bad. I personally think its incredibly selfish not to follow these guidelines.

CakeInMyFace Sun 16-Dec-12 16:12:53

Even the most diligent adult who is ott with hygiene can spread it because these bugs are very resistant...hand gels don't work either.

Enigmosaurus Sun 16-Dec-12 16:15:54

If more parents at my dc school had followed the 48 hour rule imposed by the school and recommended by the Health Protection Agency, my family probably wouldn't have caught norovirus twice within 3 weeks and the school probably wouldn't have had to close twice to deep clean to get rid of it.

YABU.

agedknees Sun 16-Dec-12 18:52:24

I work in the NHS. If I have d&v I cannot go back in until I have been free of symptoms for 48 hours.

GhoulWithADragonTattoo Sun 16-Dec-12 21:06:49

Booboo - those guidelines are Canadian not French!

Mia4 Sun 16-Dec-12 21:59:23

It's a good idea when dealing with Norovirus but not necessarily with others imo. Especially not food poisoning or if they seem perfectly fine during and 24 hours after. You are still infectious 2 days after with noro although some people can excrete the virus for up to 2 weeks after.

Mia4 Sun 16-Dec-12 22:01:48

Forgot to say that with the Noro, we can't go back to work for 2 days. I work for the NHS and when a whole department (almost) went off sick, two people only threw up once, so likely didn't have it and felt fine but they insisted they take 2 days off work.

upstart68 Sun 16-Dec-12 22:04:25

I'm still angry 3 years later - after another mum failed to observe the 48 hours and came round our house infecting us all for the whole of half term, which then spread to a family member having chemo. Why the hell couldn't she have just stayed in an extra day - particularly as it was half term i.e. no other commitments. She rang me up on the Thursday of the week, asking if I'd do a favour. No, I said. We're really unwell. Oh she said, yes we had that at the weekend. But yet she came round my house on the Monday and said nothing about it.

redwellybluewelly Sun 16-Dec-12 22:05:13

DD's nursery has a 48hour rule, they increased it from 24hours at the start of the September term in line with local education authority advice. We are UK.

I would not break that 48hrs rile simply because I have seen how much more effective it is. But your CM and your child.

OTTMummA Sun 16-Dec-12 22:44:31

My Hospital have the 48hr rule for visitors atm.
They also have a sign telling people not to smoke on the premises, but i still had to carry my baby through smoke into paediatric A&E this week sad there is a fucking piece of green land opposite the entrance, well away from the doors, why is it so hard to think about other people?

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