To not like this Idea of a new multicultural Britain

(790 Posts)
monkeyfarm Wed 12-Dec-12 10:55:42

I suspect this probably won't go down too well but I'm just being honest as I'm interested to see if I'm the only one who feels this way?
I hate how things are changing, how I can be in a store feel like I'm in eastern europe, why are we one of the only countries that do this? why can't we take a leaf out of the book of Australia and open our doors to people who have something to contribute and not just all and sundry?
Am I on my own in feeling this way?

Yep - you are on your own feeling this way.

HTH

I wish it was just you but sadly, racist and intolerant bigots are a vocal minority.

If only they realised that British tolerance is one of our most loved characteristics round the world.

PickledInAPearTree Wed 12-Dec-12 10:57:16

No your not on your own sadly give the bnp a call.

Fakebook Wed 12-Dec-12 10:57:47

Probably yes. This is the world we live in now. Everyone is mixing up and the world is smaller than it was say 20 years ago thanks to the Internet. There are plenty of places in the uk where there are all things British. YABU.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Wed 12-Dec-12 10:58:21

Yes.

I would really rather keep my husband and children.

Ta though.

Australia?

You need to look up how they've treated the ORIGINAL natives of their country pet.

It's beyond cuntishness.

fairylightsandtinsel Wed 12-Dec-12 10:59:26

Not least because we are part of the EU which brings huge economic benefits to the UK in terms of trade. Part of membership involves signing up to allow entry to other EU nationals. Don't go into a Polish supermarket if you don't want to, but basically YABU.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Wed 12-Dec-12 10:59:32

yes, Laurie. Good point.

And america.

MardyBra Wed 12-Dec-12 11:00:35

Oh dear.

Have you been to Australia? At least in Sydney and Melbourne, it's a lot less white than the UK.

ZebraInHiding Wed 12-Dec-12 11:01:40

hmm

weegiemum Wed 12-Dec-12 11:01:56

I'm delighted to be living in a multicultural society. It makes life so much more interesting!

I'm married to an immigrant <hides yet another twattish thread>

MardyBra Wed 12-Dec-12 11:02:51

Are you one of those people who start sentences with "I'm not racist but..." OP?

If your beef is against white immigrants, then maybe it'll enlighten you to know that Melbourne is one of the largest greek communities in the world.

Rindercella Wed 12-Dec-12 11:04:42

I feel so fortunate that I rejoice in the diversity this country now has. Think back to the Olympics, how great that all those British athletes did so incredibly well, despite their gender, colour or religion. I loved that and it made me feel incredibly proud of my country - that people had the same opportunities to excel.

Open your heart to change and diversity Monkey. I promise, you will feel a better person for it.

PoppyAmex Wed 12-Dec-12 11:04:57

Tell you what, I'll go back home but my country will get rid of all the British immigrants in return.

Except you probably don't call them "immigrants", but "ex-pats".

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 11:05:26

Have any of the people who bang on about wanting to be like Australia actually spent any time in a residential part of an Australian city?

Because trust me, Sydney, Melbourne and even a good whack of Brisbane are a great deal more multicultural than most parts of the UK (London, as ever, excepted).

Also, OP, why do you assume in your post that those who are of a different race to you don't have something to contribute to society? Do only white Anglophones make an economic or social contribution?

You know that time when the British went and raped and pillaged in Australia and America and forced all of the natives from their burning homes? Ha ha ha!

Now they're strict on immigration.

Funny old world, innit?

MerryChristmasEverybody Wed 12-Dec-12 11:05:46

I agree 100% with you, OP.

What Rindercella said.

Whats with all the racism on here atm?

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 11:06:40

OneLittle - I think Melbourne has the largest Greek population outside Athens? I've always loved that statistic. And the culture that comes with it.

It's not NEW!
Britain has always been multicultural.

Mardy

Maybe she also uses "some of my best friends are..."

OP - tell you what, you leave and my forrin DH can stay, how does that sound?

It sounds as though you are saying that Eastern Europeons have nothing to contribute, so your opening statements don't make sense when comparing the UK to Australia.

We are in the EU so some movement is always going to happen.

If you were knowledgable about EU Law and Directives and where arguing that whilst such harsh benefit cuts are happening and we are in an economic crisis, then we should be using the available "opt out" leglislation, which other countries are using.

Our government (and the previous) chose not to use what was available to all EU Members, legal and fair, during tough economic times.

Which many educated/knowledgable people would like explanantions for.

WTF is going on here at the moment? Are we being invaded again? <tongue practically in ear>

ReallyTired Wed 12-Dec-12 11:07:27

I am sure you are not alone, but multiculturalism is here to stay.

Multiculturalism has benefits as well as a downside. We have fab doctors, outstanding computer programmers, [any other professional] that another country has paid for the costs of training. There are plenty of young people to financially support our aging population.

However it is extremely tough for thick people to get jobs as they have to compete with immigrants. Our children have to work harder to be the best. Being white british is no longer enough to secure a job.

I do think that uncontrolled immigration is an issue. Not so much that its bad for the UK, but the poor countries of Europe really suffer because they experience a major brain drain. Prehaps the european community needs to find ways of making countries like Poland prosperous so that their inhabitants want to stay in Poland/ Hungry etc.

The internet is creating a more level playing field for education around the world. Socially mobility is spreading to the poorer countries. The hard working bright people in poor countries are the winners, lazy think people in the UK are the losers. The affect is similar to when universal state education was introduced the the UK in victorian times.

iamapushymum Wed 12-Dec-12 11:08:18

'we are part of the EU which brings huge economic benefits to the UK in terms of trade.'

I am not doubting you, I am genuinely interested as to what?

EIizaDay Wed 12-Dec-12 11:08:27

I know exactly what you mean monkey and I agree (and I am married to a forriner) but it's just not fashionable to say it smile. I like multicultural however I do think it has gone too far in the UK.

Just to clarify my statement applies to "Econmic migration", we should never stop refugee's, under any circumstances.

SantaJaxx Wed 12-Dec-12 11:09:43

I think you may find that this "new" multicultural Britain is that new at all! We've been multicultural for a very long time.

SantaJaxx Wed 12-Dec-12 11:10:09

*isn't

PoppyAmex Wed 12-Dec-12 11:10:20

I lived in Sydney's city centre for 8 years and most shopkeepers/hairdressers/waiters didn't speak English fluently.

Anyway, OP I would like your views on the British immigrants - should they be sent packing from other countries? We have thousands living in South Portugal and since they retired there they don't even pay tax. Shall we get rid?

JassyRadlett yes I do mean it's outside of Greece. I can't imagine it's more Greek than Greece. But the Greekness if very very visible. And also other ethnic groups. It resembles more of London than most of the UK. I'm in Hampshire and it feels very white here. I'm from Auckland and it's much more multicultural. The university has a sushi bar, a noodle shop, etc when I went there in the 90s.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 11:10:26

New multicultural Britain?
Er.......

Celts...Romans...Vikings...Angles, Saxons and Jutes...Normans...Flemings...fast forward a bit...
Italians...Poles...Chinese...Jamaicans...Ugandans...Bangladeshis...Pakistanis...lots more of lots more. All British. We have been multicultural for millennia.

You just don't like them as not yer own kind. It's got fuck all to do with multiculturalism.

SnowProbs Wed 12-Dec-12 11:10:29

I find it sad that you feel this way, OP. it is such a miserable, fearful, backward-looking attitude to have.

Have you been to Australia, by the way? Melbourne is extremely multicultural; Sydney is teeming with Japanese and SE Asians. Last time I was in Sydney I was pleasantly surprised by how many white Aussies I heard speaking Japanese at business lunches.

Then, of course, there is the other side of good old Oz - rabid racism and the near annihilation of the Aborigines.

Ho hum.

Hopefully you are a dying breed....its either that, or the rise of Nazism again in Europe. Your call.

squeakytoy Wed 12-Dec-12 11:11:46

Not really a "new" idea is it.. just that we are now more welcoming of different cultures than in the past.

Surely it is better for people to get along and mix together than all be in their own little areas segregated from each other.

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 11:12:43

Can we have a new topic (which I can hide) for this kind of thread so I don't get sucked into another one?

Perhaps everyone should go back to where they came from. This means that my children will have to live on a ferry continuously crossing the Irish Sea. Or we'll all end up in the same square mile of desert in Africa. How far should we take it, do you think? <ponders the ridiculousness of people>

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 11:12:52

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Osmiornica Wed 12-Dec-12 11:13:38

What is with all these racist posts all of a sudden?

perceptionInaPearTree Wed 12-Dec-12 11:13:44

OP, I think you need to reflect upon why you feel this way. I like a more multicultural UK - I find it more interesting.

Why do you feel threatened by Eastern Europeans?

'*we are part of the EU which brings huge economic benefits to the UK in terms of trade*
I am not doubting you, I am genuinely interested as to what?

It isn't just trade. There is a "pooling" of money, which we benefit in terms of investment.

For every £1, the UK pays to the EU, we get at least £1.64, in return.

We have had investment in housing, health and regeneration.

If you realise that alot of the raising of living standards for many comes from the EU, then you understand what being in the EU has done for all of us.

There are continual reports and directives,in regards to poverty and Human Rights, that make life for all in the UK, a lot better.

All of the information in on the Web, you can just google the EU and click on the links.

DolomitesDonkey Wed 12-Dec-12 11:14:51

YANBU to harbour any feelings that you do. Your opinions are as valid as those of anyone else. It's a shame you're being called racists when you're not expressing racism - it's a ridiculous state of affairs to be in.

You are not alone in your feelings at all.

Not many of us wish to embrace the third world nor the middle ages. Idealogy on paper is all it is.

SolomanDaisy Wed 12-Dec-12 11:15:28

I love the fact that it's an Idea, with a capital I. Like a really big new Idea those loony lefties have just come up with together with their non-contributing eastern European chums. As opposed to a reality that's existed for centuries.

perceptionInaPearTree Wed 12-Dec-12 11:15:58

Also, when I was a child it was the Asian community who had to put up with the most racism. Now, because Polish are the newest immigrants they are being targeted instead and everyone has accepted the Asian community.

It doesn't make any sense - you must realise that racism needs to be challenged.

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 11:16:05

Is it worth popping into this debate the statistic that in 2010, 26% of the Australian population was born outside Australia?

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 11:17:02

If I had to go back where I came from, it would be here, as far back as I know. I'm still not a racist.
It's so bloody pathetic. We have a country run by idiots whose whole agenda is to line the pockets of big business (some of whom are white and British) at YOUR expense and a sizeable number of you think your woes are down to there being a few too many Poles coming over here and having babies or whatever.
No bloody imagination.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 11:18:13

Your post makes you sound incredibly thick, OP

Which is a shame.

Or not.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 11:18:14

Can anyone explain where these other countries are which are not multicultural and do not have immigrants and where everybody stays exactly the same as everybody else? I've been to most countries in Western Europe and none of them seem to fit the bill. The US? Hardly. India? I wouldn't have thought so.

Arthurfowlersallotment Wed 12-Dec-12 11:18:22

Uh fucking duh, Australia and north America are dominated by immigrants and descendants of them.

madonnawhore Wed 12-Dec-12 11:18:59

I feel a bit sorry for people who feel the way the OP does.

It belies a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the world works these days. Which must be confusing and scary for those who are ignorant of it.

This is the 21st century. People can get from one side of the world to the other within a day. Emerging markets in Latin America and China are propping up the limping Western economic model. People have the ways and the means to move freely all over Europe and even further afield. The planet is a global village these days. And the idea that we should be battening down the hatches of our island to keep the 'forriners' out is laughably parochial and old fashioned. It's as out of touch and outdated as the church refusing to allow women priests and bishops. Like a slightly senile old granddad stuck in a bygone age.

Not all immigrants are poor and looking to leech off the system. Economic migrants enrich the countries they settle in. And I include all working migrants in that definition - from corner shop owners to CEOs.

The world is changing and it'll happen with or without you OP. Up to you whether you want to get on board or go and hide behind your twitching net curtains in fear and mild confusion.

I suspect this OP has wandered off somewhere else, taking their spoon with them.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 11:19:35

Bhutan
Ladakh

sashh Wed 12-Dec-12 11:20:39

There is nothing 'new' about Britain being multicultural. The first black people in Britain were probably Roman soldiers.

Have a look at the buildings in Bristol for signs of slavery, what do you think happened to slaves after slavery was abolished?

All ports, Liverpool, London and Cardiff in particular have had generations of people from all over the world.

Yermina Wed 12-Dec-12 11:20:44

I'm white British and am in an ethnic minority in the area in which I live. My children's school is 85% non-white intake.

I can't afford to go out and see the world, so I'm very grateful that the citizens of the world come to me.

I don't understand what upsets you OP about other people's culture or differentness.

Nobody's forcing me to eat or buy 'forrin' food, wear 'forrin' clothes or listen to 'forrin' music. I can be as English as I like in relation to what I do, wear, eat and in relation to my values. Being surrounded by people from other cultures in no way restricts my lifestyle. How does living in a multi-cultural area impact on YOUR day to day lifestyle and choices?

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 11:21:56

Oh dear, scroll down to 'Ethnic discrimination'
Bhutan

They got rid of 1/5 of their population shock

(Well acc to Wikipedia)

Yermina Wed 12-Dec-12 11:22:40

"YANBU to harbour any feelings that you do. Your opinions are as valid as those of anyone else. It's a shame you're being called racists when you're not expressing racism - it's a ridiculous state of affairs to be in."

What - that you don't like people from other cultures?

happyinherts Wed 12-Dec-12 11:22:42

I dont think anyone 'feels threatened by Eastern Europeans' although I do think some people here are taking things too personally and bringing up a racism issue when I doubt that was the OP's primary thought or intention.

Multiculturism is having an effect on some communities. There are English children in primary schools who find it hard to interact effectively with classmates because of the differing languages spoken in the playground.

The old days of knowing your neighbours and being able to chat over the fence about family life, whatever are gone because of this communication issue

Above two points - fact - not stating as either good or bad but fact and I think that is what the OP was really getting at rather than inherrent racism or fear of any particular group.

Off the top of my head :

Picts
Celts
Vikings
Romans
Anglo-Saxons
Normans

You'd have to go a very long way back to this island not being multicultural, methinks.

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 11:25:02

Hi,

I am an immigrant. grin. I have never taken a penny of benefits and have been a UK taxpayer for 27 years.

I love Polish culture, and I love it here, and maybe you are too ignorant poorly informed to know about the poles in the RAF in World War II, and the Poles who fought against Nazism so you can enjoy your liberty, and how they held off the Soviet army in 1920, checking Sov expansion, and perhaps you also don't know how we utterly failed to help them in 1945? We owe them, not vice versa.

As for peoples of the former empire, I take it pretty kindly that they don't gob on us in the street.

Tolerance is the best reason to live here.

monkeyfarm Wed 12-Dec-12 11:25:26

Exactly happyinhearts

EIizaDay Wed 12-Dec-12 11:25:32

Snowprobs - I like the picture you paint of Australia however having lived in Australia for several years I've found it to be the most racist country I've ever lived in. In my experience Australians are completely fed up of Chinese (in particular) and Japanese immigrants.

I think a lot of this has to do with the facts that lots of Chinese have no interest at all in learning the national language of the country they choose to make their home. Doesn't really send out a very good message does it.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 12-Dec-12 11:25:34

YABU for all the reasons already mentioned. Its not 'new', its not something even slightly unique to the UK. A legacy of empire is doubtless that we've had somewhat more inflows and outflows in the past ...if you look back relatively few generations most of the population of Australia is immigrant-descended.

And finally, most of the UK is overwhelmingly still 'white british'.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 11:25:45

it's a free world op

humans are free to live in whatever country they choose!

we do not have to stay in one town, one city from birth until death - how miserable.

people move for work, family reasons, all sorts of reasons

I'm more worried about people in society with attitudes like yours rather than e balance of cultures in it. The world is changing - grow with it, accept it gracefully and interact with others who look or sound differently to you. You may goodness gracious even find you learn something new and exciting by doing so

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 11:28:03

Chickens I'll be on that ferry with your children (as long as it's between Scotland and Ireland) but mine will be on some constant round the world trip thanks to DH's family of properly exotic ancestors.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 11:28:05

and I wouldnt ever aspire to making the UK more like Oz OP

Have you ever been there? You do generalise somewhat.

Such bitter racist attitudes over there, ironic really, in one of the biggest continents in the workd with more than enough space for new immigrants.

madonnawhore Wed 12-Dec-12 11:28:14

I sort of see where you're coming from happyinherts. But my point is that pretty soon the whole world will be multi cultural. The concept of nationality will cease to exist as we know it in a few generations' time.

So how do you deal with that? Do you get scared by change and think if you shut your eyes and actively dislike it enough it'll go back to the way it was?

Or do you adapt and change to accommodate it. So that it works as well as it can for everyone?

Yorkpud Wed 12-Dec-12 11:29:45

YABU - we are already multicultural. Being in the EU means other EU members can live here and we can live elsewhere in the EU if we want to.

iwantanafternoonnap Wed 12-Dec-12 11:30:07

Yes you are. I feel quite sorry for my DS as my area is mainly white and it all feels rather boring to me.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 12-Dec-12 11:32:06

I've had a high regard for the Poles since first seeing 'The Battle of Britain' long ago, sieg. Nothing I've seen since has changed that view. If there has been an influx its much like post-war immigration from the Commonwealth - people willing to work hard at everything from leek-pulling to scientific research.

madonnawhore Wed 12-Dec-12 11:33:26

sieglind I'm reading the biography of Christine Glanville at the moment. What a woman!

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Wed 12-Dec-12 11:33:36

'we are part of the EU which brings huge economic benefits to the UK in terms of trade.'

I am not doubting you, I am genuinely interested as to what?

Currently our EU export market is around £12 billion (mainly nuclear components, petroleum, gas, industrial machinery, chemicals and medicines). Our EU import market is around £17 billion (mainly electrical goods, clothes, shoes, food, alcohol)

SnowProbs Wed 12-Dec-12 11:34:10

Eliza - I did point out that Australia is, imo, rabidly racist. Point is, as a sparsely populated island in that part of the world, there isnt much choice but to do business and trade with SE Asia....or for Aussies to come here and 'take our jobs'. Ha!

There is no country on earth that can afford to 'close its borders' or get overly uppity about 'forriners'.

Perhaps, rather than worrying about multiculturalism in Britain, the OP should be sending her children off to learn Mandarin or Hindi, or investing in some extra maths tuition or something, because as a nation, we are breeding generations of unskilled, piss-poor-at-languages young people that simply wont be able to compete with those from ountries with 'emerging' economies... Thats a real worry.

DDiggler Wed 12-Dec-12 11:35:05

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Snorbs Wed 12-Dec-12 11:35:24

I agree with you OP. Why, where I live in St Albans I know for a fact that there are people from Swansea, Lincoln, Bromley, Liverpool, Milton Keynes, Falmouth, Newcastle and loads of other places.

You can be in a shop here and the weegie accents can be so thick you could think you were in Scotland!!! The local shops even sell their special food down here. Haggis, I think they call it. I think they should all go back to the towns they came from unless they can prove that they're going to benefit St Albans by moving here.

...or are we only talking about moving between countries, and not between towns? If so then what, when it boils down to it, is the difference?

My DH is an immigrant. He also speaks fluent English as do all his friends and their wives. He will happily discuss the weather, politics and football.

My children are bilingual and native level English speakers (because they were born here). Current interests include Football, Dr Who, Harry Potter and Mike the Knight I'm sure they could find something to talk to the other children in the playground about and would do so in English.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 11:36:32

Furoshika - I didn't say they achieved that state in a happy and loving way...

Burma is taking a leaf from that book too.

FrothyOM Wed 12-Dec-12 11:36:44

Why do you say they don't contribute? Foreigners are not entitled to benefits.

biscuit And a big fat hmm fae at your user name.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 12-Dec-12 11:38:20

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Fecklessdizzy Wed 12-Dec-12 11:38:28

Humanity didn't evolve here so we're all immigrants! hmm Don't make me get my Dane Axe, now ... ( channelling berserk scandinavian forebearers emoticon )

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 11:38:58

Snowprobs, Australia isn't really sparsely populated; everyone is crammed into the small habitable bits. Yes, Australians can be really racist, but it's also multicultural, especially in the cities, and it's multiracial too. Much like here.

happyinherts Wed 12-Dec-12 11:39:10

madonnawhore - Life moves on whether we like it or not and as such yes we do have to embrace that.

No - not scared by change and things will never go back to the way it was. I do think communities were friendlier years ago and that is a combination of many things not just the fact that there are so many languages spoken in one street that people cant all communicate together properly. It's sad and I do not wish for any my comments to be construed as racism where I'm just stating facts.

Life moves on, not always for the good and things suffer but of course we all have to live side by side and make the best of things. I still don't overwhelmingly see that the OP was deliberately being racist as I'm not. I don't feel threatened by anyone. I admire the work ethic of a lot of minority sections of the community - its just that I think the OP thinks change IS difficult when you're an original English speaker and 'newcomer's who haven't seen the changing trends wouldn't know how she feels.

SantaWearsGreen Wed 12-Dec-12 11:39:44

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silvercup Wed 12-Dec-12 11:41:56

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NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Wed 12-Dec-12 11:46:00

It would be nice though if everyone who decided to live in the UK learned to speak English since it would make life easier...

It really shouldn't take 10 minutes for one person to pay for their petrol but of course if you don't understand what the person on the tills is saying and they in turn haven't a clue what you are trying to say everything will take longer. And will most likely involve pointing and gesturing... It took 15 minutes to pay for fuel this morning thanks to language barriers and the eventual help of someone who spoke both languages shock

Wouldn't it be nice if all the ex-pats learnt the language of the country they chose to live in.

Historical Mumsnet
Ye Olde AIBU

Danegeld - why do we have to subsidize our European neighbours? AIBU

Why can't the Normans learn our language and integrate properly?

The local market is full of Jutes WWYD?

If it wasn't for multiculturism, we wouldn't have Chinese, Italian, Indian foods. We wouldn't have Ikea or apple. We wouldn't have maserati, Nissan or Volkswagen. We wouldn't have mo Farah (that's right isn't it? Didn't he emigrate here as a child and get citizenship or am I way off the mark??)
We would have Mary portas, queen of shops...

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 12-Dec-12 11:48:31

Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 11:49:14

So what about those many countries in Africa and Asia which have been multilingual for a long time, happyinherts? Are they less inherently friendly? Can't children manage to play in the playground? Monolingualism is not actually the norm in most of the world.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 11:50:05

and 15 minutes patience was clearly something you just couldnt muster NothingIsAsBad...

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 11:50:53

Well I like Britain being multicultural. I'd prefer all our home grown BNP racist shitheads to fuck off somewhere else.

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 11:51:16

And if we are net importers form the Eu, then we should make ourselves more competitive as a manufacturer. IMHO, immigrants are likely to help with that.

Grimma, and others, glad some of you know about the First Ally (Poland). I was in Warsaw in August, and lots of Poles just assume no-one from England will be aware of what they did. And besides, I adore kielbasa.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 11:52:20

OP do you order takeaways at weekends? Do you use products made in China?
You are then full of double standards id you only realised the error of your post saying immigrants have no place in UK, or maybe you were trying to say something else? But like someone said upthread, you can stay behind your net curtains for your future years while society moves on, grows and provides a life exchange for other humans from different towns and countries. Embrace it! Dont be so afraid!

And in terms of the language barrier, I know someone who taught English in her native country, she speaks fluent English with a slight accent and she still gets abuse from people saying they don't understand her!

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 11:53:07

Maybe it's because I'm quite happy in my own company, but I genuinely don't mind if someone doesn't speak English and doesn't want to talk to me.
Admittedly you need English for most business transactions. Who is giving someone a job in a petrol station if they can't do the job? Where does the fault really lie?

LadyClariceCannockMonty Wed 12-Dec-12 11:55:46

OP, it's not an idea, it's a reality, and has been for a while already. Get over it.

happyinherts, 'The old days of knowing your neighbours and being able to chat over the fence about family life, whatever are gone because of this communication issue'.

No one's told me that, or my neighbours who include people who are from or have a family background from Turkey, Pakistan, eastern Europe, southeast Asia, Israel, central Europe, the Caribbean and Africa.

We must have not got that memo.

R2PeePoo Wed 12-Dec-12 11:56:56

It was friendlier in the past as long as you:

weren't black, Irish or a gypsy
weren't Jewish
weren't an unmarried mother or an illegitimate child
weren't divorced
weren't a slatternly housewife
didn't have SEN or any sort of physical disability
stayed in your social class/gender box and didn't get ideas out of your station
weren't homosexual, bisexual or transgender

I prefer what we have now.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 11:58:02

thing is, if someone was paying for their petrol and had say a speech impedient, or a hearing disability, or had trouble seeing their coins...would you offer patience to THEM, NothingIsAsBad?

I dont see how not having English as a first language is a reason to be angry with another customer at a petrol station - horrific attitude if it does make you so angry. Look into getting that fixed before you give yourself high blood pressure or worse

OscarPistoriusBitontheside Wed 12-Dec-12 11:59:37

Op do you ever eat that furrin' food? Like Chinese or Indian? hmm

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Wed 12-Dec-12 11:59:39

Well given that I made the effort to learn the language of the country I only lived in for a year I feel that others should also make the effort...

Unfortunately when your ds is desperate to 'go' but wont as there are too many people 15 minutes to pay for fuel is far too long

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:01:22

Oh please NothingIs. Take your DS to wee against the wheel of your car if he is so desparate, dont make it a pathetic excuse to barage someone who doesnt understand the language of the cashier

eugh

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Wed 12-Dec-12 12:01:53

Well given that I made the effort to learn the language of the country I only lived in for a year I feel that others should also make the effort...

You have no idea what effort people have put into learning the language. Different people have very different linguistic abilities.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:03:03

I'm sure this has been said but I've only so much time to spend on another bigotry thread before my blood pressure goes through the roof.

But ... did you mean to imply eastern europeans don't 'contribute' to society? Had I better tell my DH to bugger off with his good degree and his hard work and the taxes he pays, then? After all, then I could get the tax payer paying all my council tax! Excellent!

LittleTownofBethleHelenMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 12-Dec-12 12:03:18

Morning.

We don't want to censor discussion of this country's immigrants patterns (although it might be quieter day at MNHQ if we did!).

But we'd like to remind you all of our Talk Guidelines, please - in particular the rules about no personal attacks (feel free to attack the opinion but not the poster) and about making generalised, negative and discriminatory statements about a particular cultural or racial group.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Wed 12-Dec-12 12:04:16

I dont see how not having English as a first language is a reason to be angry with another customer at a petrol station - horrific attitude if it does make you so angry. Look into getting that fixed before you give yourself high blood pressure or worse

It wasn't the fact that english wasn't their first language that was the problem it was the fact that they didn't know a single word that the person on the tills could understand. How long would they have had to wait if they hadn't been rescued by someone who knew both languages? I'd have been so stressed if I couldn't communicate well enough for someone to know what I wanted

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Wed 12-Dec-12 12:05:44

Ooh yes. Let's send everyone back where they came from except for white people born in Britain.

So there go my DF and his family.... And the lady who runs the Oxfam branch I volunteer at... And an aunt and uncle on my DM's side... Oh, and DW and her family becase they're black. Except that would mean sending them to Romford and DD to Leicester. Hmm.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:06:20

you dont know the circumstances that the person was in the country for
- on holiday?
- fleeing a wartorn country? having lost many family members already?
- on a work trip or a language course?!!!!

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:08:07

I would prefer an intergrated Britain. Multicultural seems to be to divide more than unite.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:09:36

very close to asking MN HQ to pull each and every one of these threads with a strong undercurrent of racism disguised as 'I was only saying...'

it's as incendiary of the OPs who start such threads as going and taking part in a riot if you ask me. I mean, it is akin to going and starting a street riot by the OPs...except they are doing it behind their net curtains and their laptops while eating pot noodles most likely

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:11:49

nothing - how do you know? confused

Either you speak both languages (in which case I don't get why you didn't help out), or you're assuming she couldn't communicate but you don't actually know what she was trying to say, right?

My old boss had a thick Glasgow accent and regularly thought he was speaking perfectly clearly to the locals who spoke broad (flat!) Midlands. People often asked me why he didn't just say what he wanted. He was saying it, they just couldn't understand.

Maybe this person thought she was saying the right words, and was making an effort. Maybe she thought she'd got it down and she hadn't. Maybe she was used to pay-at-the-pump stations where you don't need to interact with someone.

You cannot possibly judge someone on seeing one tiny snapshot of their life.

My brother is getting on for fluent in German, but still occasionally it deserts him. His wife is fluent in English but very, very rarely there used to be situations where she was stumped. You might well judge them in those situations, but you don't know they are working on their languages and also contributing.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Wed 12-Dec-12 12:12:03

Or just having a bad day ifso

I live in another European country and went to book a table at a local restaurant the other day. Normally I can do this in the local lingo (I'm not fluent but speak enough to get by). On this occassion for unknown reasons I got into a complete panic and my brain emptied of every bit of language I'd learnt. Thankfully the receptionist spoke English so I was saved, although I did look like a complete numpty.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 12-Dec-12 12:12:06

I disagree strongly with the views on these threads ifso but I would never ask MN to pull them. And nor should they

People are entitled to their views and we are entitled to disagree with them.

Charliefarlie1192 Wed 12-Dec-12 12:12:31

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

monkeyfarm Wed 12-Dec-12 12:12:46

Cantspel
I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?

Corygal Wed 12-Dec-12 12:13:09

What people mean when they worry aloud against multiculturalism is money, specifically theirs. The fear is that new people will take the cash or services of the existing people. The facts are:

1. White working class people, specifically men, are being outclassed at school by everyone else. That's due to poverty of aspiration, not their poverty or the poverty of anyone else - if you're foreign-born, you tend to be less well off.

2. In what first appears to be a gift to the BNP, welfare claimants are miles more likely to be foreign-born than Brits of any size/colour. That's because UK welfare pays out to the eligible the moment you hit Dover, unlike most of the rest of Europe where you have to live there for a bit. But you can hardly blame someone who is skint & not working for claiming what's legally theirs. Anyway, UK welfare (for the unemployed) is very mean compared to the rest of Europe.

3. Still talking about people who haven't paid in but are taking out? The huge welfare burden is pensions, not immigrants.

4. The huge NHS burden is pensioners, not immigrants. Although the NHS refuses to give figures, apparently 90-95 per cent of NHS spending goes on OAPs. Heard anyone suggesting flying the contents of a geriatric ward overseas?

5. Housing. I live in Central London, and flats designed for 1 person are often inhabited by 4 or 5 people, or, in the case of the lads across my hall, 12 people. They all came over from Pakistan and all work in badly paid service jobs. Of course housing is a huge social problem now in England, but I don't think UK natives are the ones suffering most. Yep, 12 people = 1 bedroom.

The government won't deal with it because the inflated value of the housing stock is the only thing in this country that's worth money these days (no industry, big firms owned abroad etc) - UKplc is a property business.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:14:27

charlie - I'm sure you're lovely and delightful and ignorant of the meaning of 'cretin', but it is one of my bugbears because it's originally a nasty term for someone with severe congenital learning disabilities. It's up to you of course, but if by any chance you didn't know that, maybe you'd think about using something else?

As you were, folks.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 12:14:58

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:08:07
"I would prefer an intergrated Britain. Multicultural seems to be to divide more than unite."

So exactly how integrated would I have to be to avoid dividing this country?

Is it ok if I speak my own language in my own home with the door and windows closed? What about speaking it in my garden where the neighbours can overhear? What about when ds and I are walking down the road?

Does every meal I cook have to be British or can I get away with the same amount of foreign food as my English neighbours? And does it have to be the same kind of foreign food?

Can I watch foreign films on TV if they are not from my own culture?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:15:55

monkey, what's wrong with wanting the best of both worlds?

Do you really mean, you'd much prefer it if we all ignored all imports just to spite the nasty nasty immigrants?

I read somewhere that about the only edible thing that's properly native to Britain is kale.

Yep.

I think I like imports!!

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 12:16:52

monkeyfarm Wed 12-Dec-12 12:12:46
Cantspel
"I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?"

You mean like the Anglican church in my Swedish hometown?

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:16:58

monkey - they dont bring their places of worship etc with them, such buildings have existed for many many years, even before you were born

what is your ideal world? I can but guess...

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 12:17:22

Want their own shops????

You mean local shops that actually sell food? Rather than fags, spongy bread, pot noodles, baked beans and an awesome variety of confectionary?

How strange.

And are white British people not allowed in the shops that sell this food?

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:18:23

suggest Monkey boycotts using or consuming all imported products for a week

then kidnly gets back to us to let us know how she got on

was her daily life better or worse as a result? am sure Closer magazine or Bella would love to pay you for your story

jeanvaljean Wed 12-Dec-12 12:18:32

OP YANBU, but you'll not find much support on MN which is some way to the left of Marxism Today. The support for massive immigration is a symptom of the Left's self hatred and actually anti British racism. The people on this thread are not pro-diversity for all - they would not for instance argue that Japan should be more multicultural because those Japanese are such inward looking Little Japanlanders aren't they? All on their high horses keeping their borders tight, how dare they! Japanese culture could really do with a few million Poles to spice it up and make it more "global" and "diverse".

No it's only the British/English who really need a good shake up with massive immigration to improve us. The end game of this globalisation is of course that we all become one homogenous sludge rather than diverse and vibrant. And in the West this dislocation, lack of common history and culture will just result in more Capitalist exploitation and the worship of consumerism. Awful.

All that said it is is no way the fault of immigrants who are only doing their best to obtain a brighter future for themselves and their families. It's our glorious leaders hand in hand with big business who are to blame.

healstorturepeople Wed 12-Dec-12 12:18:57

I can't believe that in 2012 people still hold these views. It utterly disgusts me. Multicultural UK is not a new thing and is a massive benefit to a society. I used to teach at a very multicultural school and I learnt a huge amount about the beliefs, customs and lifestyle of different culltures. A great opportunity. The families brought skills to the area. Some owned successful restaurants, some were nurses, many ran successful businesses etc. All the children were wonderful, the British ones and the ones that came from Poland, China, Bangladesh, Lithuania and Germany.

Anyone who holds racist views needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. Does the colour of your skin make you any different or any better to anyone else? NO! Some people have clearly learnt nothing from World War 2. Think how many people died because a small minority thought a bland white, blonde race was the way forward.

I am appalled that people hold these views.

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 12:19:42

Wow. Just Wow

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:20:14

It is not a matter of having shops or places of worship. It is when you have areas which are over crowded with yet more people moving into them because that is seen as a muslim/polish/somali/or any other immigrant area.

Integration would mean moving into other areas and being part of the existing community rather than wanting to stay in their own.

I have worked and know a fair number of eastern europeans over the last few years and most do want to intergrate.

kerala Wed 12-Dec-12 12:20:30

Think OP must be confused - is there such a thing as a "pure" English person? We are all mixed race read your history books (Romans, French, Vikings) all settled and intermarried.

Fakebook Wed 12-Dec-12 12:20:43

morning thanks to language barriers and the eventual help of someone who spoke both languages

Really? 15 minutes? I think that's bullshit. I don't talk to people when paying for my petrol. I go in, say "number x" and pay and leave. What took them 15 mins to explain? confused.

jeanval, your post is embarrassing.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 12:21:46

jeanvaljean Wed 12-Dec-12 12:18:32

"The people on this thread are not pro-diversity for all - they would not for instance argue that Japan should be more multicultural because those Japanese are such inward looking Little Japanlanders aren't they? All on their high horses keeping their borders tight, how dare they! Japanese culture could really do with a few million Poles to spice it up and make it more "global" and "diverse".

No it's only the British/English who really need a good shake up with massive immigration to improve us."

Another one to think that immigration is unique to Britain. Do these people never travel? Do they really imagine that the rest of Europe is ethnically homogenous?

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:22:12

embarrassed for JenVal

healstorturepeople Wed 12-Dec-12 12:23:05

I don't think they do travel cory.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 12:24:06

Monkeyfarm, on the subject of 'their own shops and places of worship', I don't understand you.

If people come to live here and follow a religion, are you suggesting that it would be better if they did not have the freedom to build places of worship? Or are you suggesting that it would be better if they stopped practising their religion altogether (and possibly converted to CoE, as it is the state religion)?

It isn't unreasonable, given that we have complete freedom in this country to follow whatever religion we like, that we are all - any of us - allowed to build temples, synagogues, churches in which to worship. Forbidding this (as well as being a violation of a human right) would radically change our country.

As for shops: if I move to a country and find they don't stock food I'm familiar with, AND I know there's a market for those brands, I might reasonably see a business opportunity there. Are immigrants to be prevented from starting businesses, even where there is a proven market for the goods?

richardsimmonstanktop Wed 12-Dec-12 12:24:45

This thread depresses me. Especially the ignorant reference to Australia (where it was still legal to shoot an Aboriginal person until around 1970).

I love Britain's multicultural society. Can't believe there are those that would deny others their own places of worship and shops (wtf's that all about? GO HOME, KEBAB SHOPS).

I'm not racist but some white British people don't know how lucky they are to live in a tolerant society.

shriekingnora Wed 12-Dec-12 12:25:07

Monkeyfarm - interesting that you say 'when in Rome'. I heard on the radio yesterday that the ancient Romans were the minority in Rome.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Wed 12-Dec-12 12:25:38

I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?

Does that mean I'm not allowed to have Christmas dinner on the 25th, pull a cracker, wear a silly hat, and set fire to the Christmas pudding seeing as none of these are normal in the country I live in? sad

FatherReboolaConundrum Wed 12-Dec-12 12:25:43

"I would prefer an intergrated Britain"

And what would that be, exactly, cantspel? There's never been an integrated Britain - even if you excluded the immigrant populations of the last 200 years (and what sane person would want to do that?) you'd still have different nationalities and regions speaking dozens of different dialects or languages, remembering the good old days when they were trying to kill each other. My DM, who grew up in Lancashire, always regarded the populations of Yorkshire and Wales as peculiar and slightly suspect. So does DP's father, who comes from the same area.

Depressing thread. Still, at least it's reminded me to watch this again: www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QAvkFS_cgk&bpctr=1355316772

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:25:47

I think we're trying to reason with people who never travel, eat different foods, think expansivley, so in some ways this discussion could go on and on

sad to live such a self-limiting life really

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 12:26:34

jeanvaljean, have you read the Hugo novel, or is your name derived just from the musical travesty of it?

Actually, Japanese racialism has been critiqued often and by many liberals both here and on the Pacific rim. That said, perhaps it is wise to put our own house in order first, before helping other people do the same.

What exactly is your objection to Poles? Do you know about their help in WW2?

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:27:20

but people who wear imported clothes, made in foreign sweatshops but who religiously! want their weekend takeaway (delivered on time by someone who speaks perfect english and never has to delay proceedings by counting coins or trying to find the correct word -heaven forbid)

jeanvaljean Wed 12-Dec-12 12:27:24

For those embarrassed for me (my how condescending and oh so typical) perhaps you'd like to point out what I said that you disagree with?

Cozy9 Wed 12-Dec-12 12:28:00

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 12:28:01

Australian Aborigines were classified as fauna until 1967.
'part of the indigenous flora and fauna'

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:28:08

the irony is not unnoticed here

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:28:19

Ooh, I am thrilled we're to the left of Marxism Today. I shall go tell DH his roots in Soviet Russia mean nothing to me, I'm the real leftie in the family.

What a pity I actually know some British history so also know jean is talking bollocks. sad

Btw, there was a fantastic article in History Today last month about a new plan for teaching history to children, which is going to look at population change and movement from the Iron Age onwards - it looked amazing. The author ended by summing up where the powerful figures in the UK today come from (or, often, where their families come from) and it was fascinating: the Queen has German and Danish ancestry, her husband is Greek, the Mayor of London is a one-man melting pot with Turkish ancestry amongst other things, the deputy PM has a Spanish wife ... I forget all of them but she had masses of links showing how people we think of as part of 'British culture' are forming that culture by drawing on roots in other cultures too.

EIizaDay Wed 12-Dec-12 12:28:26

Monkeyfarm - I think you'd better give up. Posters are trying to put words into your mouth. Mob mentality springs to mind.

You do know that the Poles will allow you to shop in their shops don't you, OP? They're not Pole only zones.

Don't suppose you'd want to eat that furrin muck though?

I wonder what the Spanish think when shops pop up along the Costas selling baked beans/PG Tips/Daddies Brown Sauce hmm

Belmo Wed 12-Dec-12 12:29:10

I've struggled to order things in some parts of England because they can't understand my broad Scottish accent and I couldn't understand theirs. And have you ever heard a Welsh person try to take instructions down the phone from an Aberdonian? It's hilarious, promise.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 12:29:49

Ha ha CiF
Home of the rational and enlightened! grin

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:31:05

thing is Cozy, MN is full of people who have shock horro, TRAVELLED and seen for themselves other countries, including those of the nationalities others are trying to denigrate on this thread

if it werent for such educated minds trying to educate other posters, I dread what our future society may become

relieved that so many here are shooting down the OP and other racist opinions there should be no place for such disguised racism in our society

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:31:21

Btw, there was a fantastic article in History Today last month about a new plan for teaching history to children, which is going to look at population change and movement from the Iron Age onwards - it looked amazing. The author ended by summing up where the powerful figures in the UK today come from (or, often, where their families come from) and it was fascinating: the Queen has German and Danish ancestry, her husband is Greek, the Mayor of London is a one-man melting pot with Turkish ancestry amongst other things, the deputy PM has a Spanish wife ... I forget all of them but she had masses of links showing how people we think of as part of 'British culture' are forming that culture by drawing on roots in other cultures too.

^ is an example of an integrated britain

Peachy Wed 12-Dec-12 12:31:30

''Cantspel
I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?'

What, like Mosques and stuff?

Are you serious? Do you think that everyone who attends a Mosque is a recent immigrant? There's been a Mosque in my city for around a 100 years, my friend who is white British converted to Islam: presumably they are entitled to a place of worship, may as well let immigrants attend then eh?

Op I disagree with you, I don't think your views are at all unusual, but personally I wholeheartedly disagree with you; I can trace my family back to the 1600s in Somerset and am a Christian so presumably in the category of desirable but immigration has brought benefits to my life, indeed a key reason for moving here was a wider cultural mix for my children to grow up with.

Jean- what an odd way to look at it! Apart from the fact I know little of (modern day) Japanese immigration- why would I?- I don;t think immigration should improve us or anything else: I also don;t necessarily think mass immigration on a long term basis is economically sustainable, but if it were then I'd be well up for it: it definitely enhances ,my life now in this city over the rural county I grew up in, and on a very basic basis the wider the genetic pool of a species then the better it's chances of survival long term. So on a purely pragmatic basis......

LMAo at boycott anything not British: we run an internet sales company and occasionally get calls from people who wish to do exactly that. They are, frankly, out of luck. NOTHING in our particular type of electronics is made without labour or at least components from outside the UK. The amusing if anecdotal case was the ex pat living in Europe who wanted only the best UK made equipment because of all this 'immigration crap'. Ooh the irony!

musicismylife Wed 12-Dec-12 12:33:16

Take a leaf out of Australia's book, yep, pillage the Aboriginals and take over THEIR land.

Was it Griffin who went over to Australia to talk to the Australians about 'nationalism'.

Wonders will never cease.

RatherBeOnThePiste Wed 12-Dec-12 12:33:25

REALLY offended by your username.

Bumblequeen Wed 12-Dec-12 12:33:39

OP- I hope you never eat in Italian, Greek, Asian, Chinese and so on restaurants.

I hope you do not smile and socialise with your non white British colleagues whilst secretly wishing they would return from where they came from. I know many people do this.

Some immigrants do contribute to this country- as doctors, nurses and in many other professions.

The sad thing is many people will agree with you. Of course they would not admit this.

Months ago my non white but British friend overheard a woman at her local station discussing the increase of London gang crime. "Too many black boys in London causing trouble, why should I be scared to leave my house? Next election I am voting BNP". angry

My friend was in ear shot and the woman's friend looked uncomfortable

R2PeePoo Wed 12-Dec-12 12:33:43

MonkeyFarm-how do you feel about the rash of pubs, shops, English churches, fish and chip shops and restaurants offering English breakfasts and purely English food in Spain that cater for the immi....whoops sorry expats.

The ghettoising of immigrants is not a new thing. When the Huguenots came over from France in the 16th and 17th centuries they all clustered together, same with the Jews, same with the Italians, the Irish etc. Each time there were complaints for twenty years or so and then there was intermarrying, building of businesses, socialising, population movement to get employment and the new immigrants became accepted. No-one still complains about Irish immigrants or the Italians now, but I bet some of our grandparents and great-grandparents did.

Charliefarlie1192 Wed 12-Dec-12 12:34:20

No CLEARLY from my post I didn't know the original meaning of the word cretin

FatherReboolaConundrum Wed 12-Dec-12 12:34:29

Jeanvaljean (isn't that name a bit foreign?), what's with the reference to 'the West'? The USA, Britain, Spain, Poland, Estonia, Greece, and all those other states all lumped together under one lazy, catch-all term? Sounds like you're endorsing some form of multicultural homogenous sludge.

Didn't Marxism Today fold about 20 years ago? Do keep up, petal.

jeanvaljean Wed 12-Dec-12 12:35:28

Sieglinde - I have no objection to Poles. In fact I think they're a rather heroic nation. I used them as an example, I could have said Somalis or Bangladeshis or English!

I've spoken to Polish people who cannot believe what we have allowed to happen in the UK. Who have told me "we would never have let this [massive immigration] happen in Poland". It's true that more and more countries are experiencing this but the scale in the UK is unprecedented, and not desirable.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:35:46

Good point peachy.

Or, we could always do what we did in the twelfth century. York had a thriving Jewish population (as did other areas of the country) who had their own places of worship and even contributed to things like windows in the Minster.

Then the authorities decided to herd all the Jewish people, men, women and children, into Clifford's Tower then set it on fire.

So, we have a long British history of being intolerant bigots, too. And maybe the way to put this right is to learn from our fuck-ups and not let it happen again.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:35:46

Grrrrr OP, the racist views on your thread are even more irritating than the ASDA advert

Peachy Wed 12-Dec-12 12:36:55

hahaha Belmo- tell me about it! Am in Wales now and my Somerset accent- well yes.

Highly recommend the little strawberry jaffa type cakes they sell in the Polish section of supermarkets, and their sesame snaps- gorgeous!

My degree is in World Religions, I used to work in the charitable sector with struggling families of whichever nationality and race came my way. I have yet to encounter any excuse to be racist. I grew up on a council estate in a deprived town, not found any excuses. Dad is one of 3 employees amongst many Eastern European workers in his factory (cleaning out the machines used to produce MRM products)- he hasn't found an excuse to be racist, only to buy a Polish- English dictionary. He's 70, if he can cope so can most of us.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:37:19

Poor people will want to move to rich countries if there is a hope of a crust or two.

Rich people like to exploit poor countries (or of course rich if they can manage)

Most people tend to stick with what they know/knew and are comfortable with re language and culture (not all) and prefer to live in a community of similar people. Some of the worse offenders I know are the English in the Dordogne. (Go spend a Sunday in Riberac and listen to the screeching about cricket and sherry.)

musicismylife Wed 12-Dec-12 12:37:22

Sorry, Laurie, i didn't realise that you had already mentioned this.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:37:30

charlie - yes, it was clear! I hope I didn't offend you by saying it. As I say, it is a bugbear of mine but I am well aware many don't know the original meaning.

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:38:01

Peachy what you have posted was a reply by monkeyfarm to a post of mine please dont post making it look like i have made that comment

monkeyfarm Wed 12-Dec-12 12:12:46
Cantspel
I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 12:38:07

Poland, ahem, doesn't get off lightly when accusations of racism are being thrown around. According to Polish friends I have who are delighted to see that they are welcome here (we would not be in similar numbers, he insists, especially if not white.)

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:38:08

China has bought most of Ethiopia to grow food for itself.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:38:55

Poland is appalling (as are most of the Baltic states).

So is Austria.

NothingIsAsBadAsItSeems Wed 12-Dec-12 12:39:51

Really? 15 minutes? I think that's bullshit. I don't talk to people when paying for my petrol. I go in, say "number x" and pay and leave. What took them 15 mins to explain?

That's exactly what I do when paying but this is sort of who it went:

Cashier: Morning, any fuel?
Customer: ...
Cashier: No fuel?
Customer: ...
Cashier: [points to fuel pumps] Any fuel? What pump are you on? Do you know how much you put in?
Customer: Said something
Cashier: Did you put any fuel in your car?? hmm
Customer: confused

Since the customer had no other goods it was assumed that they had fuel since they had qued up and presented the cashier with a card so the above carried on with the other shop assistant joining in to ask the same questions with more gesturing. Massive que of people complaining about being made late for work but had to continue waiting since they had to pay for fuel. Eventually a lorry driver came in and helped the customer out. I'd have been happy to wait since I'm not working today but ds needed a poo and wont go in public so was getting increasingly stressy making me quite stressed blush.

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:40:10

Poland has a long antisemtic and racist history but thats ok as they helped us during the war

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:41:01

Mossad is making up stuff about Iran

amillionyears Wed 12-Dec-12 12:41:24

Love your neighbour as yourself.

Peachy Wed 12-Dec-12 12:41:37

'So, we have a long British history of being intolerant bigots, too. And maybe the way to put this right is to learn from our fuck-ups and not let it happen again.' Hear hear.

Interesting that Somalis and bangladeshis are being mentioned now, suggesting people have NO comprehension of how different it is to emigrate to the UK from outside the EU as from within it, and how different welfare laws and entitlements (often, sod all) apply to different groups.

People's views will differ from mine, so be it- as long as they are informed ones.

Peachy Wed 12-Dec-12 12:42:13

cantspel- sorry not intentional.

I look and sound very English - but I am not. I am a mixture of Irish, Scottish and English. Mainly Irish actually. When I think about the racist attitudes that I would have faced personally not that long ago, it makes me very aware of what others are facing now.

Many, probably most, immigrants make hugely positive contributions to society. One of the advantages of living in London is the variety of food and shops...

Yep OP, you are on your own.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:43:02

The Swedes aren't terribly keen on their immigrants.

The French don't love the Maghrebs

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:44:33

peachy - again, I agree: people don't often know the differences between the EU/outside the EU.

FWIW parts of Eastern Europe are outside the EU, and the part DH comes from is. He has no recourse to benefits or anything like that (which he feels is right), although he has never paid taxes anywhere else and works hard here. He's white with a posh English accent. It is a shedload harder if you are not. Before we even get onto people who're seeking asylum here and need all the support we can give them.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:44:38

it's QUEUE NothingIs

and does it really matter? the lack of patience of others was clearly more of an issue than the hearing issues or language issues of that customer. You have NO evidence if they had hearing impairments etc but you are choosing to make it a language/immigrant issue

as i already said, they could have been on holiday/just arrived/visiting..buying fuel for the driver waiting outside who may have injured their ankle, so they can drive but not walk inside to pay for the petrol

see what thinking widely does? it gives people LEEWAY and margin for error - HUMAN error in situation, regardless of the colour of nationality of that human.

if only we were all perfect robotic aliens who looked appropriate

grrrr

Peachy Wed 12-Dec-12 12:44:54

Se nothing, it happened to be an immigrant (or holiday maker?0 that time but plenty of people can hold people up- what if it was someone who had alzheimers, or was dazed after losing someone or any of a myriad of reasons...

compassion is ALWAYS a bonus. I get the whole child won't poo in public toilets(I have 3 kids on the spectrum, boy do I!) but there are so many reasons people can get held up.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:45:18

hully, you're beginning to sound like an up-market version of 'National Brotherhood Week'. grin

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 12:45:38

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Wed 12-Dec-12 12:46:21

The Swedes aren't terribly keen on their immigrants.

Some Swedes aren't. The vast majority are extremely welcoming and bend over backwards to help and include us.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:46:37

I'm just saying it's all very difficult and complicated.

ifso Wed 12-Dec-12 12:46:48

plus why not interrupt and ask pls could your son use the bathroom as it was urgent?

there is always a way

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:47:38

Are you white Flamin?

ArtfulAardvark Wed 12-Dec-12 12:47:43

I can see this from both sides really.

On one hand I was very uncomfortable in a queue the other day when we were all grumbling about the amount of time we had been waiting and the lady in front of me said "oh its that Eastern European girl again, ive had to put her right a few times" was a bit shock that she would say it to me and particularly be so racist when there was an asian girl standing behind me. I did think to myself "well the eastern european girl speaks one more language than I do"

On the other hand I am less than impressed by the large companies (yes im talking about you Costa) who seem to to employ staff who have only basic command of English, I can only assume these staff are cheaper. A few weeks ago I ended up ordering what the guy could understand rather than what I wanted.

In an ideal world we would all mix up and get on, I do have concerns perhaps that living so close but not in an integrated way is causing more resentment as we are close enough to see the differences but not near enough to grow to like each other and realise that in the scheme of things they are unimportant. Language is the major barrier to this (and before anyone says it I am equally scathing of Brits who move to Europe only socialise with other Brits and never learn the native language)

Jumping down someones throat and calling them a racist, rather than giving them examples of how immigration is of benefit to this country achieves nothing but unfortunately these days seems to be the mumsnet way.

LoopsInHoops Wed 12-Dec-12 12:49:34

"I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?"

Have you ever been to Rome, OP? Do you know much about Roman history? An interesting parallel.

The Romans went around the world raping and pillaging, much like we did with the Empire.

Rome itself is a hugely multicultural city. Even when the Romans decided to all of a sudden change their religion to Christianity, Judaism still existed. Today in Rome there are Synagogues, Temples, Mosques and a plethora of languages spoken.

You don't come across as having thought this through to be honest. "why are we one of the only countries that do this?" strikes me as a positively stupid thing to say. Have you travelled? Visited any other countries? Because you clearly have no idea. Bring Australia up as a prime example - their indigenous population are in a distinct minority and have been treated appallingly by generations of (mostly British) immigrants. What makes you give this as an example?

I love the thought that some incredibly dimwitted people have of 'sending them all back to their own country'. Imagine. Half of Australia, America, a lot of Africa, not to mention the rest of the world would have to come and live in the UK. The Brits love to procreate and spread their genes all over the world. Think about it.

DumSpiroSperHoHoHo Wed 12-Dec-12 12:50:51

I think a little more tolerance of everyone, by everyone would go a long way, and whilst I frankly have no clue about the whys and wherefores of Japanese immigration and certainly don't consider myself a Marxist, I am inclined to agree with jeanvaljean that the 'powers that be' cause a lot of the issues that lead to attitudes like those of the OP.

Overt political correctness and so-called 'positive discrimination' get a lot of people's backs up. A friend of mine is an ex-pat of about 20 years standing in a predominantly Muslim country. She thinks it's hilarious that whilst our government and local councils are getting their knickers in a twist about renaming Christmas 'Winter Festival', her neighbours are decking their houses with Christmas trees and fairly lights!

JesusInTheCabbageVan Wed 12-Dec-12 12:51:14

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 12:51:18

I live in a very white area but we still have a mosque with a 3 mile radius, indian shop, turkish barbers, polish shops, curry houses, kebab houses, chineses takeaways and any number of other non british rooted businesses.

You dont have to live in london to be able to buy bolst curry powder or get a wet shave.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:52:41

'whilst our government and local councils are getting their knickers in a twist about renaming Christmas 'Winter Festival''

dum, I thought this was a myth? Can you link to evidence that anyone is really proposing to do this?

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:53:04

You dont have to live in london to be able to buy bolst curry powder or get a wet shave.

There is something about this sentence I love.

LoopsInHoops Wed 12-Dec-12 12:53:10

Shockingly, for an atheist, I applaud Jesus.

But yes, you will be deleted.

dinkybinky Wed 12-Dec-12 12:53:30

I love multicultural Britain but I don’t like people coming over here with the intention of abusing the system and adding to crime rates. I love the fact that we are one of the most tolerant countries in the world but there are too many people living in confined areas such as the SE and London, extra tightening of the borders and immigration is needed before it becomes a massive problem.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Wed 12-Dec-12 12:54:12

Are you white Flamin?

I am, but the majority of immigrants in my very small close knit town are either Thai, Iraqi or Somali. We have 1 Swedish restaurant and 5 Thai ones.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 12:54:33

"I can only assume these staff are cheaper" What?! They don't have two rates of pay, one for Brits and one for immigrants.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 12:54:45

What I don't like, by anyone/group of people/religion, are practices that discriminate.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 12:55:52

dinky, do you know how 'tight' immigration rules are already?

What changes do you propose?

My issue is, you're talking about people who intend to abuse the system, and then you say the way to stop them is to tighten the rules. But, um ... people who're already breaking the rules won't care! You'll just penalize those who are law abiding.

I don't believe we are one of the most tolerant countries in the world, btw.

maddening Wed 12-Dec-12 12:57:32

My paternal gp were invited here after the war (in a displaced people camp in Germany from the Baltic states ) - they worked hard all their lives and their son's have both contributed a lot - my Df is a dentist and my uncle a professor at uni - more than a great many born and bred British folk do in several generations - all 5 of us gc have worked hard from finishing uni and have not been a burden on the state and indeed all paid tax.

So I find your op a bit offensive - how productive are your family op?

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Wed 12-Dec-12 12:57:51

My best friend is an immigrant. Love her American ass. And yesterday a Polish gentleman stopped in the street, put his bags down and helps disabled old me to get my bins in. I grew up in Germany, so I guess I was used to being in a foreign country and trying to get by, so I don't really see the problem here. I love the cultural shops, Indian/Chinese/Polish shops, because I can get some really nice food, you can communicate without words until someone comes along with a dictionary, it's quite fun. I advocate freedom to worship whatever you like, I don't believe Christianity was actually the first 'religion' here, and since I worship a Celtic God and an Egyptian Goddess, I guess that I'm an equal opportunities kind of 'gal'. I think people are always too busy hating when if we just tried to love and accept there would be less pain in the world any way.

The only thing to hate, is hate itself, that's what makes all the bad things happen. Racism, war, holocaust. sad

jeanvaljean Wed 12-Dec-12 12:58:53

Its sad how difficult it is to debate this issue without the mudslinging and the kneejerk accusations of racism. There really is - as Cozy says - much more intelligent debate over on the Guardian site about this issue.

Primarily it is not racist to like other cultures and to be deliriously happy with a certain assimilable level of immigration, but to be perturbed at massive immigration which has reduced your native population to 45% in your capital city. I would be worried about this if it was happening to any nation - French, or Russians, or Nigerians. Because you are losing an identity, a culture from our wonderfully diverse world.

ArtfulAardvark Wed 12-Dec-12 12:59:35

Furoshika, well where I am they dont seem to have amy British staff, I can only assume low pay or "positive" discrimination - draw your own conclusion, either is wrong.

I actually dont give a toss where their staff come from I just need them to understand my order, particularly as i'm dairy intolerant and ended up having a rough day as a result of that visit.

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 12-Dec-12 13:00:33

There really is - as Cozy says - much more intelligent debate over on the Guardian site about this issue.

Go over there then

You'd be happier, you prefer the culture and you like the language and there are more of your own "kind"

You'd love it on so many levels smile

DumSpiroSperHoHoHo Wed 12-Dec-12 13:00:58

That may be an overstatement LRD - I could tell you some of the stuff that goes on in my local council but it would be specific to my place of work and I would out myself.

I'm not for one minute saying there is anything wrong with our being a multicultural society - I have no issue with that at all, was born in London, and whilst I've been raised and now live in the South East I love the diversity of the city and would move back there like a shot given the opportunity.

I do think though, that there is an institutionalised oversensitivity and need to 'be seen to be doing' what is politically correct, rather than a genuine understanding of some of the issues involved and effort to effect real change.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 13:01:25

I can't stand the Guardian site, it always seems to be full of bigots. But if you're happier over there ...

What is our 'native population', exactly, jean? Please do feel free to explain that one.

HullyEastergully Wed 12-Dec-12 13:01:31

I would open all borders everywhere.

All the poor people would pour into the rich countries so people would have to spread out a bit more and fix the devastated lands of the poor countries etc and generally wealth and happiness would be a bit more fairly distributed.

A few years of chaos, but a happier outcome eventually.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:01:48

The problem is that measures taken to stop immigration are often cruel, arbitrary, flawed, driven by political gain, or downright murderous.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 13:03:07

dum - ok then. confused

Honestly ... I don't in the least want to out you but I think you may already have done so! If there's really a council this silly, they will soon be on the news. Everyone else gave up on this as a tired hoax around 2000, I thought. It has been very, very widely reported then revealed to be not true, you see. I don't disbelieve someone may be daft enough to think it's seriously a good idea, but they will very shortly have the piss ripped out of them for it.

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Wed 12-Dec-12 13:04:03

Fuck, am I a hippy?

richardsimmonstanktop Wed 12-Dec-12 13:04:25

"I love multicultural Britain but I don’t like people coming over here with the intention of abusing the system and adding to crime rates."

Any evidence for this? I'd be interested to see if any nationality commits crimes more than the other. And it's actually incredibly difficult to 'abuse the system'. But again, if you can provide evidence (statistics, not DM links) I would like to see them.

Fakebook Wed 12-Dec-12 13:04:43
FatherReboolaConundrum Wed 12-Dec-12 13:07:04

'What is our 'native population', exactly, jean?'

And since you mention the French and the Russians as 'nations', could you clarify whether ' the French' include the Basques, the Corsicans, the population of Alsace, the Bretons, and the Algerians (whose country was regarded as a region of France until the 1960s)? And you do know that Russia is a multiethnic state, don't you?

smacks self around head for getting sucked into this cretinous nonsense

DumSpiroSperHoHoHo Wed 12-Dec-12 13:07:50

LRD - I didn't mean literally the 'Winter Festival' thing - was just using that as an example of OTT political correctness.

Bonsoir Wed 12-Dec-12 13:08:22

It's called globalisation and it shakes up the sedentary.

dinkybinky Wed 12-Dec-12 13:08:57

Hully,All the poor people would pour into the rich countries so people would have to spread out a bit more

Its already happened!

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 13:09:13

Oh, I'm with you now. It did sound bizarre.

I think the reason it's OTT is it's not real, though. It gives a skewed picture because everyone knows that is a made-up story.

I'm sure there is real OTT political correctness somewhere, perhaps.

FergusSingsTheBlues Wed 12-Dec-12 13:09:31

I think it's unfair that there can be no rational debate on this subject without offence and accusations of racism being bandied about. I dont care much for the old "benefits stealing scrounging forriner" sterotypes. my mother was an immigrant forty odd years ago, ive also spent over half my life abroad. But realistically, there is a massive housing shortage in both sectors, much strain on already underfunded schooling and NHS, and I dont think such a massive influx of immigration is wise for that reason alone. It's common sense, not politics.

ArtfulAardvark Wed 12-Dec-12 13:10:31

Actually I dont agree with posters who disagree with the main mumsnet opinion being directed off to other sites how dull would this site be if we all agreed.

We are not 14 we can listen to other peoples opinion and say "I dont agree for x, y or z reason" or perhaps just not respond if its really a problem.

As far as I was aware we live in a democracy where on the whole we are allowed to express our opinions as long as you are not advocating doing any physical harm.

My son was rather shocked yesterday when he came home from school as his black and asian friends had been given detention for being racially abusive to each other, of course he was unaware (because it gets no publicity) that racism isnt only a white thing.

JesusInTheCabbageVan Wed 12-Dec-12 13:11:10

Thanks Loops

Jean can we at least get past this frankly idiotic misconception that only 45% of people in London are white? IT'S NOT TRUE. It was all a misunderstanding by another charming, articulate, literate bigot on another thread.

ArtfulAardvark Wed 12-Dec-12 13:11:38

I think the "winter festival" thing was the Eden Project wasnt it, I dont know if it was true or not.

FatherReboolaConundrum Wed 12-Dec-12 13:12:47

For there to be a rational debate, both sides have to be able to advance rational arguments though, Fergus. If you find anyone able to enter into a rational debate about why they don't like those shifty foreigners coming here and making us all talk Polish and celebrate Eid, send them over here.

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 13:14:36

That's right Dinky, all the poor people in the world have already poured into the rich countries. Every last one of them. hmm

maddening Wed 12-Dec-12 13:14:41

But Jean - all my time growing up in the wilds of Cheshire London has always been somewhere that was seen as multicultural - the UK's melting pot.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 13:14:53

DumSpiroSperHoHoHo Wed 12-Dec-12 12:50:51

"She thinks it's hilarious that whilst our government and local councils are getting their knickers in a twist about renaming Christmas 'Winter Festival', her neighbours are decking their houses with Christmas trees and fairly lights!"

Perhaps you could inform your friend that the winter festival story is exposed as an urban myth every year: it's one of the great British Christmas traditions.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:15:30

Again I am probably missing something, but what is wrong with Winter Festival?! You're celebrating things (not just Christmas and not just religious things)...in Winter. Job done.

StepAwayFromTheEcclesCakes Wed 12-Dec-12 13:15:31

how depressing that racism is alive and well and so active on MN at the moment... seasons greetings to all. sad

TandB Wed 12-Dec-12 13:16:15

Bloody hell. I hope we don't all have to go back where we came from - it's going to be one hell of a commute, not to mention a little expensive in rent/mortgages, if I have to split my time between Latvia, the Isle of Man, Scotland, Northumberland and Cornwall. It's bad enough trying to get to Douglas from City Airport - I bet there are no direct flights from Riga.

I'm highly entertained by the "take a leaf out of Australia's book" idea, bearing in mind the fact that we took over an entire country to act as a dumping ground for the people we wanted rid of and massacred the bulk of its native population in the process. In fact, as a country, we don't have that great a record for keeping ourselves to ourselves, so it's probably a bit late to start getting all "Go monoculturalism!"

TandB Wed 12-Dec-12 13:17:13

I'd love there to be a winter festival. I imagine it being all medieval and frost-fair-ish.

There would be sledges and chestnuts and rosy-cheeked children. It would be great

EIizaDay Wed 12-Dec-12 13:17:30

Gosh some of the posters on this thread have been so utterly childish and rude towards the OP. What happened to love thy neighbour. You lot have no chance of loving immigrants when you can't treat your fellow *country people decently.

Disclaimer: we don't actually know where OP is from.

TalkinPeace2 Wed 12-Dec-12 13:18:09

As a first generation economic migrant, I say BOO

Did you realise that a decent number of the people "born overseas" are Army kids?

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 13:18:49

Ooh, me too, kungfu. I woke up this morning and the fog from last night had all frozen onto the trees so you get that lovely, crystalline frost that outlines everything in white. Gorgeous. I'll have that for winterval, please!

eliza - I'm damn good at loving immigrants, or so DH tells me. <boom, tish>

seeker Wed 12-Dec-12 13:19:21

Eliza- so we're supposed to love the racist that is the OP?

GrimmaTheNome Wed 12-Dec-12 13:19:52

>can we at least get past this frankly idiotic misconception that only 45% of people in London are white? IT'S NOT TRUE. It was all a misunderstanding by another charming, articulate, literate bigot on another thread.

Its 45% who are both white and british, isn't it?. So there will be more than 45% white and more than 45% british - this number is the intersection of two larger sets. It doesn't include Poles, Australians etc etc etc on the one hand or second, third ...nth generation non white. Furthermore it presumably doesn't include mixed race so it will exclude many descendents of 'white britons'. There really isn't much grist for the racist mill there.

TandB Wed 12-Dec-12 13:20:59

I love my neighbours. All of them. They are lovely. But then again my neighbours don't tend to express bigoted, narrow-minded views.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 13:21:08

Somebody ought to do the figures: what exactly would it mean to the overcrowding situation if all the descendants of Brits were to come back from the US, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa etc? Not that it would be practically possible, of course; there would be too many people split in half between different European countries, but perhaps some kind of deal could be done (x no of white Americans of mixed descent go to the UK for every X percent that go to Holland or Sweden).

TandB Wed 12-Dec-12 13:22:33

LRD - we've got that down here too. It's the strongest frost I've ever seen. It almost looks like spring because all the tall, dead flowers at the side of the road are white again, just like when they are in bloom.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 13:23:13

I have a problem with the sheer number to be honest. This doesn't make me a racist, being working class it does limit my chances in the jobs market, which is a fact.

TalkinPeace2 Wed 12-Dec-12 13:23:24

cory
Indeed, parts of my family lived in Kent in the 1500's before heading abroad.
others were originally from Scotland, others Germany, some the Midlands.

Thing is, I don't look or sound like a foreigner (which is how I know that people who moan about it a racists).

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:23:29

kungfupanda, exactly. All snowy and trees bedecked in fairy lights and glühwein (are we allowed that cos it's foreign) and roaring fires and chestnuts roasting and hooray the days are getting longer at last.

TandB Wed 12-Dec-12 13:23:44

Maybe there should just be an annual lottery - everyone in the world gets assigned a country to live in for the rest of the year.

[Hopes and prays for the Maldives]

TalkinPeace2 Wed 12-Dec-12 13:24:21

Clippedphoenix
That may be your opinion, but it is NOT backed up by the data.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 12-Dec-12 13:24:50

>What happened to love thy neighbour

Its love thy neighbour as thyself... I'd guess many of us wouldn't love or respect ourselves too much if we realised we'd been racist.

extraterrestrial Wed 12-Dec-12 13:24:56

I'm Polish and I totally understand the OP and do not consider her a racist
at all.
If she was insulting Polish people in general , then she would be. But
she is not - she is just feeling increasingly alienated in her own
country, as the make up of it has been dramatically changing in the last
few years. I would feel the same if this was happening in Poland,
sometimes it is very difficult to accept change.

I am not of the new influx of Polish immigration, came here in 1994 to
marry my husband. Always wanted to go back but couldn't due to
circumstances or not being brave enough to just do it ( would have meant
starting own business there ). Now it is too late, my children are
teenagers, going through GCSEs and A-levels,planning to go to
universities.

I love Britain as well, but still desperately miss Poland as always.
Find it hard to be an immigrant, hate having an accent, don't like to be
a Catholic in Britain due to very obvious prejudice and because the
church is so much better over there ( eg. so many young people involved,
plenty for them to do).

I am not a great fan of European Union .

My opinion of it:

Good points:

We can move to Poland ( at least in theory, because I can't really see
it ever happening) any time we want, find work, buy property without
major bureaucratic upheavals.

My mum can visit without being interrogated on the borders.

My sister now lives here with her family, we can socialize and support
each other often.

I can get Polish products easily from local shops.

There is a lot more Catholics over here now.

Bad points:

I observe lots and lots of heartache. Families split up. Older parents left in
Poland without the regular support of their adult children and
basically missing them badly, seeing their grandchildren maybe once a
year - this is on a massive scale and often involves more then one adult
child . This is a very real pain people are experiencing every day - I
know families like this personally and read about them.
My mum has three children, all have emigrated, I'm here, my sister is
here, my other sibling is in yet another country( careful not to give
too much info here, not to be outed , sorry).She is left in Poland with
an alcoholic husband.
I think about it every single day.

A lot of people come here and suffer badly from homesickness but can't
easily go back, ie. one partner wants to, the other doesn't. Children
often suffer in such circumstances ( rows and break ups).

I am utterly sick of having to defend Poland to British people when they
spout totally ignorant opinions about it and equally sick of having to
defend Britain when I go to Poland and hear ' Is it as horrible as they
say?Is the food really so bland? ' etc. as, yes, many go back with bad
opinions, often because they did live in grotty places and ate Tesco
value ( not that it's all that bad, I have just discovered I quite like the
chocolate ! ).

I mentioned I like being able to buy Polish products here, but at the
same time it makes going to Poland that tiny bit less exciting, I used to love
the excitement of the past travels there, the anticipation of the food I
missed.Or when mum used to bring over the things I missed. It is gone
now, I can buy virtually everything over here.

It is SOOOO monumentally bad for the enviroment. All these people moving
to and from. A lot more air travel. Coaches full of grandmas visiting .
We go by car and on Dutch and German motorways we pass hundreds upon hundreds of Polish lorries. Some of them will be bringing things like Polish tomato puree for Polish shops- why,I don't know, it tastes exactly the same as the British .
Politicians are such hypocrites ! Banging on and on about climate
change, banning lightbulbs and at the same time opening borders like
this. I will never get it...

Most Polish people that I come across are decent folk but there is a lot
of 'underclass' around as well and I am sick of being forced to hear
their prolific swearing of the worst kind in supermarkets and on the
street - I come across this constantly. They think because it's in Polish
they are free to be loud with it but forget there is a lot of other
Poles about, some with children.

I will shut up now , apologies I've taken so much space already.

I am with OP as long as she doesn't blame Polish people for coming over
and become prejudiced, most of us are nice really , want best for our
families and actually have very similar culture to the British one.
Blame the politicians ! They created this mess !

Last thing I will mention is that not all people escape some dire
financial circumstances in Poland. Some - yes, usually from small towns
with high unemployment. Some come because they have things in Poland but
want more, eg they own a flat but want to come here, work a few years,
go back and build a house ( pound still worth more over there).
Some come because they want to improve their English or simply to have
an adventure.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 12-Dec-12 13:25:38

Yes, exactly that kungfu. It's beautiful but spooky.

TandB Wed 12-Dec-12 13:26:08

The thing about the level of immigration is that I'm pretty sure the population of western Europe is heading for a sharp decline based on current birthrates, and that a bit further down the line we might find that we actually need to encourage immigration.

Disclaimer: this was explained to me by DP after reading a complicated economics book and I was only half-listening.

LoopsInHoops Wed 12-Dec-12 13:26:19

I've tried to look it up cory, but there doesn't seem to be even any guesses.

PoppyAmex Wed 12-Dec-12 13:27:06

I don't agree, if multiculturalism unites then why do people come in to britain but want their own shops places of worship etc? I don't think that is what they want, I think they want the best of both worlds, to leave their own country and turns ours into a mini version of theirs but only with the bits that suit, what happened to when in Rome?

Funny, British people come to Portugal and Spain and demand Fish & Chips, kettles everywhere and mainly want British food. And they're just on holiday!

Abitwobblynow Wed 12-Dec-12 13:28:05

Monkeyfarm, give up. The mob mentality is in full flow. You are evil and wicked, because you do not have the same Good Intentions and moral superiority that they do!

Is there absolutely no acknowledgement at all, that the decision of New Labour to open the gates (for appalling reasons) has created some problems for social cohesion in Britain? No?

What happens, dear caring MN, when a community that DOES NOT aspire to the same things as you do, get to a critical mass and start running their own parties? Ooooh, like Tower Hamlets, for example. Wait, there is already that party. It's called Respect. Watch, and learn.

'The main shortcoming of democratic societies, is the tyranny of the majority - Alexis de Tocqueville.

I really don't like the party line that is being enforced here. We should be able to identify problems and articulate them, without those problems being denied as part of a wider issue ['multiculturalism is wonderful!!! The EU benefits us!!!!smile], being accused of racism, being a bigot, etc etc.

Lilithmoon Wed 12-Dec-12 13:28:23

Hoar Frost
Very pretty smile

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 13:31:29

I don't really take any notice of "data" which can read however.

All I know is what I see/hear first hand.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:33:13

If you choose to ignore data, all you get is a skewed view which will, quite naturally (because you are human), back up your own opinion.
But that's your choice, just don't expect anyone to take you seriously.

agaat Wed 12-Dec-12 13:33:16

I would guess that not many people in those countries that Britain colonised were that keen on being mult-culturised either - take a read of The Scramble for Africa,

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 13:34:12

I'm not Polish, but can some of the posters tell me why it matters that Poles can be racist? I mean, to how we treat them? Hully, are you saying we should be racist back? hmm

If they want to work and they do so, does it matter why they come?

richardsimmonstanktop Wed 12-Dec-12 13:34:59

"I don't really take any notice of "data" which can read however.

All I know is what I see/hear first hand."

That's called anecdotal evidence, and it doesn't really mean anything. For example - my experience is that I have found there is loads of work around at the moment. So who is right? You or me?

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 13:35:33

GrimmaTheNome Wed 12-Dec-12 13:19:52
">can we at least get past this frankly idiotic misconception that only 45% of people in London are white? IT'S NOT TRUE. It was all a misunderstanding by another charming, articulate, literate bigot on another thread.

Its 45% who are both white and british, isn't it?. So there will be more than 45% white and more than 45% british - this number is the intersection of two larger sets. It doesn't include Poles, Australians etc etc etc on the one hand or second, third ...nth generation non white. Furthermore it presumably doesn't include mixed race so it will exclude many descendents of 'white britons'. There really isn't much grist for the racist mill there."

So in the group of Others we have people like my own dc: born in this country, white (not that I think that is relevant), native speakers of English and thoroughly immersed in English culture, but not identified as White British because their mixed parentage means they tick Other on the questionnaires (there is usually no box for White Mixed). And what a threat to integration they are to be sure.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 13:38:27

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 13:34:12
"I'm not Polish, but can some of the posters tell me why it matters that Poles can be racist? I mean, to how we treat them? Hully, are you saying we should be racist back?"

I think these remarks have been made in the context of "my Polish friends can't believe we are so silly as to entertain this multiculturalism foolishness", which is an argument which has been made by several posters on this thread.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:40:29

Yes someone down the thread posted that her Polish friends couldn't believe we'd be so daft as to let so many people in.
My response to that is that Poland is kind of well known for being racist, so probably not an unbiased view from her hmm
(Nothing to do with wartime contributions, which were magnificent and we shafted Poland unforgivably.)

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:41:03

Sorry, from them.

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 13:42:28

To those of you who want open borders.

How does that work exactly? If we cannot provide jobs, housing medical care and schooling for everyone who want to come?

We cant just keep building more homes as we are already building on green belt and in areas where we shouldn't.our nhs cant cope now so how will it manage if we add a few more millon people and there are already children without school places and schools having to use temp class rooms. And that is before you bring in the issue of jobs paying a decent wage.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 13:47:11

I work in the construction business, as do many of my friends.

Our shop has just had to close due to the fact that we employed a team of very good floor fitters for 20 years and paid them a good wage which of course had to be reflected in our overall pricing.

A shop has just opened across the road and we just cannot match them, they employ all Polish workers, these Polish workers rent a house and live 4 maybe 5 to a room, therefore their living costs are nothing like any of our fitters with homes and families to feed.

This is what is going on everywhere and yes it is a problem.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 13:48:41

Sorry, forgot to add that they are able to work for much less, their money is not spent here helping the economy it's sent back to Poland.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 12-Dec-12 13:50:59

cory - yes, exactly.

can'tspel...but we don't seem to be able to provide medical care without immigrants. Or harvest our own food for that matter. If some combination of skills shortages and poor attitude to work has created a void then I'm rather glad to have people willing to fill it.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 13:54:58

What are these Polish shopfitters saving on, to allow them to undercut your business so much? It can't just be that they are paying their workers less - unless they are paying them illegally?

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 13:56:07

then maybe we need to change the attitude to work within this country rather than importing unskilled labour from the eu.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 13:57:15

The EU. Root of all evil if you talk to a lot of people. How dare people move freely and mix within it.

Yes, its flawed. Hugely flawed at times. But I don't think immigration is top of that list.

This week the EU got the Nobel Peace Prize. It was right to award it to the EU.

In the last few years I've visited Bosnia (several times) and Serbia. Every so often you'll seen signs up with the EU logo on construction programmes. And when we were in Mostar we saw a bunch of men in senior military uniform which various international flags all wearing the same uniform under the EU banner for some important meeting or other (I think they were EUFOR I think if memory serves me correctly).

It was a very good reminder of how and why free movement and cultural exchange between people is just so important, and I think its something to be proud of.

I generally take the view that, if people have something to contribute and participate - which can be both socially and financially - then thats great. But that can be applied to both 10th Generation British Born Whites or someone born abroad. The problems start when any group deliberately isolates themselves from another one way or another. Communication and inclusion is the key - and thats where multiculturalism is essential and should be encouraged.

The real mistake is believing that in order to do that you have to give something up about your cultural identity. You don't. It just means you should be tolerant of others and be willing to learn to understand them and how they are different from you.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 13:58:53

Yes, they are paying them much less and they work practically 24 hours a day. Are they doing things legally, I doubt it.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 14:03:41

In that case the immigration is not the problem but the failure to enforce legislation about minimum wages.

What I have heard about lots of manual jobs is that they like using Polish labour not because they are unskilled but because they are highly skilled.

narmada Wed 12-Dec-12 14:04:34

Clippedphoenix

Sorry your shop's closed - that's not nice, especially before Christmas.

However, do you ever buy goods made in China or cheap consumer durables made overseas?

Everyone seems to want the benefits of globalisation and free market capitalism without the downsides. It just doesn't work like that.

Furoshika Wed 12-Dec-12 14:05:25

Exactly cory.
Aside from the point about them paying people illegally - though to be fair it is a big point - what's the problem if they work 24h a day? It's one way of running a competitive business.

ImaginateMum Wed 12-Dec-12 14:05:48

"how I can be in a store feel like I'm in eastern Europe"

But isn't that a richness of experience? Why does it bother you? There are plenty of generic Tesco style shops, I think it is great to have other shops, churches, theatres, restaurants.

My son said to me recently, based on what we'd done that day, "Mum, I have been to France, China, Italy, Japan and Greece in one day and I didn't even have to leave town". I think it is wonderful and don't understand why it is threatening or a problem.

Yes, yes to tolerance. But an absolute no to forcing homogeneity.

MrsMuddyPuddles Wed 12-Dec-12 14:08:13

"I hate how things are changing, how I can be in a store feel like I'm in eastern europe, why are we one of the only countries that do this?"

Try visiting France or the US, luv. There's tons of "little Africa" areas in the larger towns and cities of France, and much of the US is slowly becoming bilingual with South American Spanish though your American counterparts have much to moan about that

biscuit

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 14:09:39

It is easy to get around minimum wage as they just work on a self employed basis.

My new bathroom was fitted by 2 polish brothers, their quote was less of everyone elses. Only one spoke english and he dropped his brother off each morning, told him in polish what needed doing and then collected him at the end of the day. Nice hard working fellas who did a great job and i will be giving them more work in the new year

narmada Wed 12-Dec-12 14:11:59

If you think that Britain is one of the only countries that does this, monkeyfarm you need a serious lesson in world geography. Most of the migration in the world is within and between very poor countries - e.g., in Africa. Some countries have huge, huge migrant populations which pale into comparison next to the UK's.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get into this country if you are not from the EEA? Well, it's very difficult indeed.

narmada Wed 12-Dec-12 14:12:56

Huge migrant populations against which the UK's pales in comparison blush

ImaginateMum Wed 12-Dec-12 14:13:12

Yes, lots and lots of "China towns" in the world too (e.g. in Japan). It happens everywhere! It is no big deal!!

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 14:14:00

As cantspel has just confirmed, this is what is happening, I find what you have just said to be rather sad.

How do you know they were proper qualified bathroom fitters, did you see any credentials or were you just bowled over by getting something done so cheaply?

richardsimmonstanktop Wed 12-Dec-12 14:15:22

"forgot to add that they are able to work for much less, their money is not spent here helping the economy it's sent back to Poland."

So are they not paying taxes then?

I saved as much as I could while living in the UK for a mortgage in my own country so I suppose I'm as guilty as these Poles.

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 14:22:22

yes the brother who spoke english was a qualified plumber running a legit business. His brother not so but i would expect a british plumber to have an unqualified mate was well.

It wasn't a cheap job but it was cheaper then the other quote plus they were ones who were keen to start and gave me a time scale for the works. The other was more up in the air about when he would start and finish. There whole approach was alot more professional than the british bloke.

suburbanmyth Wed 12-Dec-12 14:22:43

I've got a good idea OP - why don't YOU move to Australia, sounds like you would be much happier there.

Anniegetyourgun Wed 12-Dec-12 14:24:04

I can't begin to describe how much I despise the phrase "I'm just being honest". XH used to use it when he had just said something particularly cuntish.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 14:26:12

Once again I will repeat what I said in first post. It's the sheer number of immigrants that is very wrong.

monsterchild Wed 12-Dec-12 14:31:59

Where I live, whites/Anglos are the immigrants (though not the most recent). The underlying culture here is either Pueblo, Navajo or Spanish (though the Navajo and Spanish are immigrants too, just earlier than Anglos).

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 14:33:35

And you didn't mind having a worker in your house that you couldn't communicate with if anything went wrong? Or you need to ask something of?

You saw credentials from the brother as well did you? There's a shop front for instance? A chanel to go down if, say in 2 years things go wrong? I hope so for your sake.

richardsimmonstanktop Wed 12-Dec-12 14:34:16

ClippedPhoenix - Britain's population has grown by just 4 million over 20 years. Is it this growth that you think is unsustainable or just immigration?

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 14:37:16

ClippedPhoenix, what numbers would you be comfortable with then?

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 14:38:55

I didn't need to communicate with the brother and if i had to ask anything i would ring the mobile of the other brother.

He runs a small plumbing buisness and doesn't have a shop front. I can contact him at anytime as i know his number and yard address. Why assume just because he is polish and gives a better quote he must be a cowboy?

All the English tradesmen I've used haven't got a shop front. I've only got their mobile number. I think I'm screwed hmm.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 14:42:28

"how I can be in a store feel like I'm in eastern europe"

Should we ban Ikea then?

MyLittleAprilSunshine Wed 12-Dec-12 14:43:49

It's not that it's multicultural that bothers me, it's the overpopulation in general whether it be White British, Asian, Pakistani or American people who are taking up the space. We are a very small Island in comparison and we don't really have much more room for more people.

What does bug me though is another thing entirely - it's racist to say something to someone who is black or pakistani, for example - but when I have made a complaint about someone making a racist comment to me, it's looked over. I don't think that's right at all! I am not racist and have never made a racist joke or anything, yet I have had horrible comments made at me for being a 'white bitch' or something.

So it's double standards I don't like.

Plus the fact this little Island can only hold so many people.

Plus the fact there isn't enough nice weather going about at the moment.

But I do enjoy having friends from all different backgrounds, it makes the UK a lot more interesting.

cantspel Wed 12-Dec-12 14:44:14

now i would agree to banning Ikea

awful bland furniture and the worst shopping experience on this planet

MyLittleAprilSunshine Wed 12-Dec-12 14:44:23

cory :D but I do love Ikea.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 15:18:16

Both but mostly our immigration. It stands to reason more people more births doesn't it really.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 15:23:59

Both but mostly our immigration. It stands to reason more people more births doesn't it really.

Well that generally depends on what percentage of the immigrant population is
a) female
b) of childbearing age

Plenty of places in the world where immigrants are mainly men and the average age of the population in europe is rising rather than falling which you would expect in line with the a demographic where the population is ever expanding at the bottom end of the age range...

Bakingnovice Wed 12-Dec-12 15:35:22

Oh dear, MN racists seem to be out in force at the moment.

honeytea Wed 12-Dec-12 15:37:43

Ikea isn't from an eastern European contry.

I really hope we don't all have to "go back to where we came from" I don't want to have to move back to the UK.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Wed 12-Dec-12 15:38:51

Haven't read the thread but crikey, what a lot of racists there are on her at the moment.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 15:39:49

We are overpopulated in England now due to immigration. I'm not talking about the world here Red and you know it.

I'm off now because this will all just go round and round in circles and give me a migrane.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 15:41:44

If you haven't read the thread then how can you comment Jamie? It's people like you that incite just what you portray not to with stupid comments like that.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 15:47:09

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 15:49:26

Oops, sorry wrong thread sad I'll ask for it to be deleted.

FatherReboolaConundrum Wed 12-Dec-12 15:51:30

If the problem is overpopulation, then that's probably just as much to do with people living much longer than they used to. If people would do the decent thing and kick the bucket once they've stopped being economically active and contributing to our tax base, we'd have a lot more room and not have a load of people draining the country's resources with pensions, demands on the NHS, and free bus travel. Time for a Logan's Run-style policy where anyone over 65 is knocked off?

Foshizzle Wed 12-Dec-12 16:01:14

It's not really an "idea" is it? Nor is immigration particularly new. What depresses me more is the fact that some people remain utterly unenlightened in an age of advancing science, awareness of our ancestral roots and easy travel. Is the UK overpopulated? Is that down to immigration? Are people not living longer? Are we having too many children? Is that the main cause of our financial and social problems?

Actually I cannot be bothered to argue it. I'm assuming you're not happy with your lot - you wouldn't otherwise be looking for someone to blame. Sorry about that mate.

Nice name by the way. Not racist and deeply offensive at all.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 16:06:24

Clipped I'm well aware of that, but you are being deliberately difficult and making assumptions. What percentage of immigrants coming here are male versus female? And how many are permanent or temporary. Thats an important consideration that should not be wilfully ignored.

Just looking at Japan, which has very little immigration, we should be mindful of the effects of simply closing the door. If we have overpopulation problems then lets look at whether its confined to Europe, or whether its widerspread? And as soon as you start doing that, it does matter what the birth rate in the UK is, if overpopulation elsewhere in the world is far worse and places are unable to provide basis health care, sanitation and food. The biggest drivers of emigration are the same throughout the world. And the people who are most against immigration in this country have a tendency to also be the same people who are against economic aid to other countries (even if it is deliberately targeted at things which reduce pressures that force people to leave where they come from originally). The emphasis is about keeping people out rather than stopping the desire to leave in the first place.

If we have an expanding ageing population, we need a working age population to support that too. There will be an optimum population size in relation to its age, but as the population continues to age you need to continue a certain level of immigration to balance that until the age at which humans live to stablises.

As for overpopulation in the Uk. Have we reached it? No I don't believe we have. I think we often have poor allocation of resources and don't reuse what we have well enough because we have grown used to a wasteful society rather than adapting more quickly and effectively as the population continues to grow. To me over population is when you can no longer feed the population (and whilst we are a net importer of food we still have the means to feed the entire population well) and we could better use the existing land we have a lot better without encroaching on the countryside. Its more about our lack of willingness to look for solutions rather than there being a problem that is crippling. Crippling would be a situation like Japan with too few young to look after the ailing old.

EdgarAllanPond Wed 12-Dec-12 16:11:29

here's a thought OP

you are probably concerned because you fear that at some point in the future there will be no-one like you, and the Britain you know and love will have changed.

yet the one thing certain is change - Britain is going to be different. there will be people who are similar to you, but not the same.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 16:16:37

I'm not being difficult at all Red I have stated what I can see not about ratios concerning other countries. My livelihood has gone down the pan due to immigration and so have many other working class friends of mine.

This is what I have witnessed, I don't need to look at charts or statistics.

Blinding me with statistics is not going to change what I see with my own eyes.

Anniegetyourgun Wed 12-Dec-12 16:18:40

I was somewhat intrigued when someone (JeanValjean was it?) earlier referred to acceptance of multiculturalism as Marxist. Can't remember Marx having a lot to say about immigration, either for or against, can you? <disclaimer: haven't read a lot of Marx, hoping someone will save me the bother of researching.>

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 16:19:03

I also don't give a gnats arse about the good of global economy, I care about putting food on the table and clothing on the back of my child.

chipstick10 Wed 12-Dec-12 16:21:10

Op, you are not alone. No one I know feels cheerful and upbeat about multicultural Britain. We had no choice in the matter and now if you dare question it, or are not falling all over the idea them you are a nasty little racist. Cheep shot IMO and a trick labour has been using for years to stifle any form of debate.

TinselTwister Wed 12-Dec-12 16:21:44

Where should we send my dnieces back to then? Their great grandfather was Norweigan, Great Grandmother was Spanish, Grandmother is from Trinidad, Grandfather is Irish and Father is British. FFS.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 16:26:01

Well said chipstick10.

Some people are just not in the real world or in total denial.

PoppyAmex Wed 12-Dec-12 16:32:34

Clipped I asked before, but you won't answer:

What do you think about British immigrants in other countries? Because there's more British people in my country than vice-versa...

Should other countries close their borders to you?

Bakingnovice Wed 12-Dec-12 16:33:08

I do agree with someone further up thread who said that even immigrants can be racist. I used to work with a polish bloke who couldn't 'understand why England was allowing so many brown people in?'. The irony was lost on him. Another example, doing some voluntary work I came across an eastern European lady who was very upset that she had been housed near a black family. 'but why put them near us?' she screamed, ''we are all European and white and they are from abroad'.

Racism exists in many forms and across all cultures, and forums. It's sad that we seem to be regressing with our attitudes rather than making advancements with regard to this issue.

WhataSook Wed 12-Dec-12 16:34:12

Fuck off troll and fuck off Laurie

I read the first page, first few posts and thought here we go, don't drag Australia into this British shit.

Cuntish Laurie indeed.

MaMattoo Wed 12-Dec-12 16:35:12

You have nick griffin and co to join you.
I don't understand...not at all...how you and others like you think like this. How??
Do you really want to be like Australia. Either you are worryingly naive or amazingly like the BNP people..

notnagging Wed 12-Dec-12 16:37:49

Ethnic minorities make up 20% of the population, your not dcavtly iverrun op. Take a leaf out of Australia's book? What marginalise the population then repopulate through mass immigration?

apostrophethesnowman Wed 12-Dec-12 16:38:37

I'm second-generation British (on both my paternal and maternal line).

Am I allowed to stay in the UK?

Just wondering, because if I leave presumably I would need to leave my children and grandchildren here.

My families on both sides spoke about how they were hated and abused when they arrived in the UK too. I had rather hoped that was a thing of the past by now. Obviously it's not.

Don't know if Ireland could cope with the numbers that would be sent back though, if some people had their way and removed "the immigrants". The disapora is rather vast.

richardsimmonstanktop Wed 12-Dec-12 16:41:01

"This is what I have witnessed, I don't need to look at charts or statistics."

If you're not willing to look at facts and figures then your perception is only as good as mine - which sees the positive aspects of immigration and what it's done for the economy where I live. So who is right?

GreenEggsAndNichts Wed 12-Dec-12 16:41:04

sigh. If people aren't chatting over the garden fence anymore, it's likely to be down to the fact we have a different lifestyle now. More TVs, more computers, game systems, iPads, etc. Not as many children skipping hoops down the street and all that.

Also, more people work now. Even if I wanted a chat over the back fence, no one would be home for it.

I can't claim to truly understand the mysteries of UK society, though, as I've only lived here 5 years. My own country was invaded settled by British immigrants a couple hundred years ago. Some of them were my ancestors. Does that mean I've re-immigrated? Does it matter?

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 16:50:12

I only read the first and the last page.
But I see we are on to the 'you don't live in the real world' bollocks yet again on here.

Do fuck off with that old shite.

I live in the real world. I am not in denial. I am working class and you do NOT speak for me and nor does that arsewipe Griffin.

WTAF with all this racism on MN atm? I find it hugely offensive, massively and no I am no PO. I am simply OFFENDED. Not on anyone else's behalf either.

What really pisses me off about this rubbish is the way it makes no sense. People have been whinging about being swamped for generations and yet we still remain above water.
They say that people only come here for the benefits and then say they are stealing our jobs.

Why are racists so stupid?

Follow Griffin on twitter if you really want a laugh. The dumb fuck can't even work out how to send a tweet in 140 characters or less.

I like to think that people are free to go and live where ever they want. YABU.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 16:57:23

I said this earlier this afternoon on another thread in response to someone commenting that racists were dim:

dreaming, I do think its a bit of an assumption to say that racists are too dim to appreciate logic.

The worst racists in history have been the ones with the intelligence to actually use logic and science to try and back up what they believe. (Trying not to invoke Godwin's Law here)

In my experience, racists are more likely simply not to have been exposed to challenges put to them in a way that they don't find threatening and aren't directly confrontational. People tend to be less open to ideas, if they feel they are forced on them or they feel that it takes something away from them. They also tend to go along with everyone else they are around rather than question things themselves without others to also support those questions.

People are by their nature selfish, and often look to others for failings in their life. People look for targets, without logic and then build the logic around it, until it becomes 'fact'. The easy target is the one that everyone else in your community blames and its difficult to break that cycle. It takes time and is difficult because an attack on that idea becomes an attack on that community too.

And clipped comes out with these two gems^:
I'm not being difficult at all Red I have stated what I can see not about ratios concerning other countries. My livelihood has gone down the pan due to immigration and so have many other working class friends of mine.

This is what I have witnessed, I don't need to look at charts or statistics.

Blinding me with statistics is not going to change what I see with my own eyes.

Followed by:

I also don't give a gnats arse about the good of global economy, I care about putting food on the table and clothing on the back of my child.

I rest my case.

MrsDeVere maybe the racists here are refering to my in-laws? wink They went to NZ to steal kiwi jobs 30 years ago. FIL had an accident at work and have been on and off benefits most of their lives. They are now retired, drawing NZ superannuation, disability benefits and housing benefits. On top of that they are also using a lot of public healthcare as they are both on multiple long term medication.

In case you haven't clicked, they are both (white) British for as far back as they know.

Oh and they love their Britishness so much they never got a kiwi passport, and still hang around with other Brits.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 17:04:29

^why can't we take a leaf out of the book of Australia and open our doors to people who have something to contribute and not just all and sundry?
Am I on my own in feeling this way? ^

The aboriginals would probably disagree with you about Australia not letting in all and sundry.

EmpressOfTheNorthPole Wed 12-Dec-12 17:17:34

Yes, Australia's a perfect example of somewhere that should have had immigration control a LONG time ago! And the US for that matter.

tethersjinglebellend Wed 12-Dec-12 17:19:45

Arf at 'New multicultural Britain' grin

If you'll pardon the pun, that ship has sailed. Britain has been a multicultural country for decades now.

Anniegetyourgun Wed 12-Dec-12 17:30:25

Ah well, let's look on the bright side. At least it's immigrants getting the blame this time for, er, immigrating, instead of women being blamed for taking men's jobs/pushing up prices or people in wheelchairs being blamed for wilfully existing. Equal opportunities bashing. Whose turn is it tomorrow?

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 17:32:02

So are you calling me a racist Red? Because i have spoken about the sheer number of people flooding into England? Are you calling me a racist because I have lost my job due to people using cheap labour?

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 17:32:09

I have yet to meet a racist capable of critical thought.

That may not mean they have a low IQ. My DS has a low IQ but I wouldn't call him stupid.

There is a stupidity that expresses itself in an inability to think at any level deeper than the strapline in a tabloid.

It is a stupidity borne out selfishness and greed and unchallenged ignorance.

Nothing to do with spelling or education. Educated people can be racists. They simply ignore what they know in favour of what suits them.

For years and years I had to hear 'thing is with the BNP, its run by clever men. Nick Griffin is very intelligent, that's what makes him so dangerous'

I never believed NG was intelligent. As soon as he got an open stage I was proved right. Once bought out into the light it was painfully evident stupid he really is.
And he IS one of the clever ones in the BNP. Legions of keyboard warriors who can barely string a sentence together and who regurgitate 'facts'merely because they have been told them by someone else. No questioning, no figuring out, no challenges.

Just bluuuuuuuegggh and out it pours.

Yet those of us who refuse to give in to them and concede that Britain is going to hell in a handcart are accused of being in denial and/or not living in the real world.

The proof is there as far as I can see. 40 years ago the same idiots were predicting the same thing and it didn't happen. The Irish have not taken over the country and nor have the West Indians.

So excuse me if I am a little relax about the UK suddenly becoming an Islamic state our our children being forced to learn Polish.

Cha.

wordfactory Wed 12-Dec-12 17:32:44

Well I like multiculture. Its more interesting. And I don't feel it in any way impinges on my own life and culture. However to laud it unthinkingly is as facile as denigrating it outright. There are some problems that we ignore at our peril.

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 17:33:05

'So are you calling me a racist Red? Because i have spoken about the sheer number of people flooding into England? Are you calling me a racist because I have lost my job due to people using cheap labour?'

See my last post

HTH

Anniegetyourgun Wed 12-Dec-12 17:37:12

Well of course it brings its own problems, wordfactory . If it's got people in it, it's going to be complicated.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 17:43:01

I have stated what has happened to me and a lot of my working class friends. You are very welcome to come and see for yourselves and speak to these people.

Funny enough I live in an affluent area we have a fair few fee paying schools around here and I really don't see many different nationalities coming out of the gates.

Mass immigration is hitting the working class and low paid workers hard, it doesn't seem to be affecting middle and upper. I wonder why that is? Cheaper labour?

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 17:53:43

Mrs DV I agree with you to a point but I disagree with you on others. I do think that there are intelligent racists out there. Pride has a lot to answer for and never let the truth be the hinderance of a good argument. (And references can be found to this if I were to invoke Godwin's Law)

As for NG being intelligent. Na, never thought that. Plus he's always lacked any level of charisma and charm.

Not to mention I've actually read a BNP election leaflet and laughed not only at their inability to use the english language, but also at their inability to use spell check and get someone to proof read it if they were aware they struggled with english, before allowing it to go to press with errors in double figures.

When it comes to intelligence, you are better looking at elements of UKIP for racism (and not all UKIP members are racist before we go down that inevitable route).

sieglinde Wed 12-Dec-12 17:56:09

Clippedphoenix, did it ever strike you that you were put out of business by the workings of capitalism? Yep, that's how it is - some guy starts up a competitive business and undercuts you.

Did it ever occur to you to work longer hours for less and undercut them? Do more with less, as the private sector normally requires? Because if they provide as good a service at far lower cost, why on earth shouldn't people choose them? Why grumble?

Ok, I have to say here that Brit tradespeople are not exactly world-renowned for their diligence and expertise... and nor are our factory workers, alas. Globalisation is a wake-up call, and high time too. Nothing is forever. Get a move on.

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 18:02:48

I've got huge amounts of sympathy with people losing their jobs ClippedPhoenix but you are targeting the immigrant workers for blame rather than the shop owner who is probably in breach of all sorts of employment regulations.

I know of a few businesses that have been undercut and are either struggling or have gone to the wall and I really do sympathise but if a rival employer is not paying properly and not complying with working standards then it's the employer at fault and not the workers. That's nothing to do with immigration. It's entirely to do with someone seeing an opportunity to make money out of other people

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:05:34

I am not saying immigrants are at fault here I am saying it's our greedy system.

If I lived in a country and knew mine and my childrens lives would be made better by immigrating I would do just that.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 18:09:10

Immigration is the problem.

Not the education system.
Not employment legislation, regulation or enforcement.
Not the inability of some businesses to be able to react and response to change.
Not the attitude of some elements of British society.
Not the pressures of a global market and international business.
Not the decline of the trade unions and protected markets.

Nope its them damn foreigners coming over here and taking all our jobs.

No one talks about the brain drain from these countries and how that effects whether they come from and the opportunities available back home.
No one talks about the opportunities for Brits to go abroad and set up businesses there if they have the brains and wherewithal to do so.

Nope its those greedy scrounging foreigners.

Yawn. Make it as simple as you like from what you "see with your own eyes". I personally think we should find solutions to medical problems and conditions using the anecdotal approach rather than using boring old evidence and research.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:09:50

So please fuck to fuck off and beyond with the racist comments.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:10:38

"I've got huge amounts of sympathy with people losing their jobs ClippedPhoenix but you are targeting the immigrant workers for blame rather than the shop owner who is probably in breach of all sorts of employment regulations."

This is true. Where I live lots of jobs in areas such as fruit picking and warehouse work are now being done by immigrants. This is because the employers get around employment rights and the minimum wage by taking them on as self-employed. So, not only are they leaving huge numbers of local people on the dole, they're also exploiting the workforce they do have. It's the employers people should be angry with, they create this situation because they're only too happy to use loopholes to get around paying a decent wage.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:12:33

Our open door policy or whatever you choose to call it is the problem, the sheer number is the problem.

What's the saying, the rich get richer?

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:14:16

Yeah.
I wish people would fuck to fuck of and beyond with the racist comments.

Racist comments are getting on my fucking nerves.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:16:23

"Our open door policy or whatever you choose to call it is the problem, the sheer number is the problem. "

We don't have an open door policy; it's actually quite difficult for non-EU citizens to get permission to live and work here. Also, the number of immigrants isn't really the problem. Dodgy employers would still exist if we banned immigration tomorrow, and they'd just find ways to exploit the people who remained. The lack of unions, and the diminishing of employment rights is the problem.

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 18:17:00

As I've already said once today I'd prefer all our home grown BNP racist shitheads to fuck off somewhere else.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:18:37

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

tethersjinglebellend Wed 12-Dec-12 18:20:00

Just a small point regarding Godwin's Law:

Godwin's law applies [...] to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one's opponent) with Nazis. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate

So, mention away grin

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:20:51

You make a very interesting point there saskia and I agree with you but the sheer volume of EU immigrants has them rubbing their hands with glee.

MardyBra Wed 12-Dec-12 18:21:21

My family on my mother's side goes back to the Norman conquest. Would the OP have me booking the ferry to Le Havre? wink

ivykaty44 Wed 12-Dec-12 18:22:47

TBH I doubt you would find an English person in England from about 1700 onwards, everyone has always escaped to England - apart from when people were escaping from England smile

I think it is what makes England so special and I am proud to welcome other nationals to our shores

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:23:22

Nice comeback CP

Get a bit on the snarky side with people who refuse to agree with you don't you?

You can't always force people to collude with you by being nasty.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:26:03

ClippedPhoenix I would discuss what you've just said, but as you've been so rude to MrsDV, I don't think I'll bother.

ivykaty44 Wed 12-Dec-12 18:27:38

It always amazes me that people who don't like other nationals flooding in to England - well they would be happy to move on to another country confused so what exactly would that make them....?

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:27:57

Im forcing no-one to collude with me. I'd just like this to be a healthy debate for once without people throwing in the racist card or becoming all smug with their wordy put-downs.

And yes, what you and others have done does make me cross.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:28:13

ivykaty44 That's very true! I'm into genealogy - you don't have to spend much time studying English family history to realise just how many people are descended from immigrants and asylum seekers.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:30:30

I felt that MrsD was rude to me also, I was just far more plain speaking.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 18:32:10

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 18:17:00
As I've already said once today I'd prefer all our home grown BNP racist shitheads to fuck off somewhere else.

Interesting stat for you reported in Nov 2011

In 2010 emigration of British Citizens was at its lowest for 10 years with just 339,000 people leaving the UK.

Matt Cavanagh, of the Institute of Public Policy Research, said: "The figures remind us that it was a mistake for the Conservatives to choose 'net immigration' for their overall political target.

"The figures confirm that net immigration in 2010 was the highest on record. Not because immigration is rising – as the ONS makes clear, it has been stable since 2004 – but because emigration is falling.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/24/uk-net-migration-record-high

Ironically, as I've discovered when looking at moving abroad, ten years ago I would have been eligible to move abroad to several countries who have since changed their immigration policies making me not longer able to.

Damn all those foreigners coming over here taking all our jobs...

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:32:39

You tell everyone to fuck off to fuck and then get all PA about people being rude to you.

Grip needed.

Jins Wed 12-Dec-12 18:32:51

Racism needs to be challenged though. There have been examples of racism on this thread. It's not throwing the racist card to challenge behaviour or language that is racist.

MN is full of casual racism. Every week we get a thread that demonstrates how racist our society is.

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:33:29

What is a wordy put down?

More PA bollocks.

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:34:52

Once again everyone wafts off on history etc. I'm was actually talking about today, the problem of mass EU immigration in 2012 and what it is doing to the average joe bloggs. Unfortunately it can't be discussed due to the pressure aimed at anyone challenging this to be made to shut up.

sad

hides thread

gordyslovesheep Wed 12-Dec-12 18:35:06

wow how chippy are you Clipped?

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:37:03

Did you all enjoy the xmas bash by the way grin

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Dec-12 18:38:48

I don't know what makes me want to vomit more about threads like this, the casual reflex racism of one side or the nauseating "I rejoice in our wonderful diversity because I'm so fucking clever and marvellous" smuggery of the other.
There is indeed value in diversity. There are also problems, when some of the values and attitudes of the new communities we develop do not chime with beliefs of the indigenous population. As for example, the Dutch are finding with numbers of muslim immigrants being far less tolerant of homosexuality than Dutch society has been for some years.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:39:06

Bye Clipped - I see history is like facts - something you choose to ignore.

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 18:40:09

<Applauds MrsDV for her patience>

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:40:40

Off to a committee meeting at Sea Cadets actually.

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 18:41:23

History is damn important when looking at trends and patterns in migration and looking to the future to predict future patterns and set policy in immigration and foreign policy.

But lets ignore it in addition to doing research in the form of anecdotes.

face palm

ClippedPhoenix Wed 12-Dec-12 18:43:35

Oh before I go, i'd take my face out of MrsDeVeres backside mail, you may be able to see more clearly grin

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:45:52

Of course. If the 'you are all middle class and don't know what its like for real people' approach doesn't work

go for the 'you are all bestie friends and thats the only reason you don't agree with me' whinge.

Whatevah.

Foshizzle Wed 12-Dec-12 18:48:44

To be fair, a thread about immigration started by a poster called monkeyfarm was never going to be an intelligent debate...

Who is the average Joe Bloggs? Why attribute the pressure on jobs at a certain level to immigration? What about the employers - the companies who are shutting up shop and moving factories and production to other countries for taxation / economy reasons? This is why this discussion is flawed. Those arguing that it's all down to immigration don't want to think about "the wider world / economy" and so will never consider that there may be reasons linked to "the wider economy" which have very little to do with immigration.

And what about - at another level - people not born here who are getting jobs simply because they are better qualified / have more experience?

And none of that is historical!

And as for tolerance of homosexuality. Er... yes Nick Griffin is indeed fully embracing of this. Famously so. confused

In fact, why the fuck have I come back to argue social basics?!

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:48:52

"Oh before I go, i'd take my face out of MrsDeVeres backside mail, you may be able to see more clearly grin"

She has mail in her backside ... ooh you poor love Mrs DV, your post must be delivered by sadist shock

RedToothbrush Wed 12-Dec-12 18:49:32

MrsDV I actually disagree with your POV more than I agree with it on MN. Which really amuses me!

wordfactory Wed 12-Dec-12 18:50:01

karlos indeed.

I couldn't give a fanny's fart about forriners apparentlytaking all our jobs and social housing - pure daftness - but I do think we need to be very careful about allowing our hard fought equalities to be eroded. We need to stand very firm against sexism, homophobia etc and refuse to tolerate it even when it is part and parcel of someone's culture.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 18:52:45

The argument about furriners being sexist or homophobic would only work if every single person in Britain was neither. But, we have plenty of sexist homophobes who were born and bred here.

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:54:58

Do not assume that those of us who oppose a monoculture are in tolerant of all aspects of different cultures.

But as forshizzle pointed out - those who oppose multiculturalism are hardly well known for their progressive views on homosexuality and feminism.

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 18:57:35

Maillot is the name, Clipped, not Mail. It's another pesky foreign name though dear so don't worry about it.

And I am aware of MrsDV from other threads (sadly often on similar subjects) but we don't "know" each other. Perhaps we agree on some things because we are not racist twats.

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 18:59:00

red you disagree with me?! shock

Did you not get the memo? That is definatey NOT allowed..tsk tsk

grin

Oblomov Wed 12-Dec-12 19:02:29

Birdsgottafly
when you google the EU there are just any many articles saying that UK has put in more than they get out, listing as may cons as there are pro's, than there are articles listing the pro's of the EU. I found your oiginal post, misleading.

wordfactory Wed 12-Dec-12 19:02:42

I really do not consider it excusable for immigrant communities to be sexist/homophobic just because Nick Griffin is an arsehole. I mean WTAF?

The fact is that as a society the UK has decided upon and fought to defend equalities. And we must never back down from those equalities in the name of multiculture, somehting I think we've been guilty of to some extent.

I'm perfectly happy for people to come to the UK. In fact I actively want people from other cultures to come here. But anyone who does come had better toe the line vis a vis our equalities.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 19:03:02

Maybe should say that I don't know Mrs DV either. I see her on some threads, and sometimes agree with her, but we don't hang out discussing ways of annoying racists on MN.

wordfactory Wed 12-Dec-12 19:05:11

MrsDV I don't for a second assume those that embrace multiculture are all tolerant of intolerance.

But there has been a societal bending over backwards. Where the pursuit of multiculture has trumped our long held beliefs in equality. I think this has been a huge error.

brimfullofasha Wed 12-Dec-12 19:07:34

YABU

Foshizzle Wed 12-Dec-12 19:13:36

Trumped whose long held beliefs in equality? I'm not disagreeing that intolerance should be challenged, I just think it's HUGELY ironic that the party that stands for maintaining so-called British values is led by a homophobe, who I'm guessing (just a guess though) speaks for many of his followers... How is the pursuit of multiculture to blame in this instance I wonder?

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 19:14:05

That isnt the point I was making word.
Nick Griffin is an arsehole obviously but saying that isn't a tit for tat to excuse intolerance in others.

I think it is fair to point out that intolerance is not the preserve of fundemental muslims (for example) because the BNP have the brass neck to use it as a reason why we need to keep Britain white hmm

I refuse to put up with prejudice from anyone. I think this is becoming more of a common attitude tbh. 'Its my culture' doesn't get you very far with my LA's SS if you think its ok to beat your child (for example). It may well have done 10years ago.

OliviaPeaceOnMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 12-Dec-12 20:31:01

Ahem
Evening all

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 12-Dec-12 20:38:06

this report is really a must read....

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 21:34:41

Is it because I said Nick Griffin is an arsehole Olivia?

Technically I don't think he can sue for that. He does have an arsehole. He talks out of it frequently.....

La la la la la...

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 21:47:32

Don't think that's why mrsdevere. It would be the same as saying the eiffel tower is 1,063 feet.. You know, a fact.

Foshizzle Wed 12-Dec-12 22:03:16

Not a homophobe. Oh no no no no.

Allegedly.

doublemuvver Wed 12-Dec-12 22:33:34

Fascinating debate. Love our land's multicultural make-up, which includes my own family. I disagree with the OP's comments but they do have a right to air their views. Just grateful that the level of support for those views was minimal. Hip Hip Hooray!!!

Snorbs Wed 12-Dec-12 22:37:28

MrsDV, provided you sincerely believe that Nick Griffin talks out of his arsehole I think that's a valid defence against libel.

exoticfruits Wed 12-Dec-12 22:40:17

I think it is a good thing. It had always happened back to Vikings, Normans etc.and all immigrants since.

ivykaty44 Wed 12-Dec-12 22:46:31

Once again everyone wafts off on history etc. I'm was actually talking about today, the problem of mass EU immigration

It hasn't been a problem in the last 300 years this mass eu immigrantion - so why is it today 12 12 12 a problem?

Cozy9 Wed 12-Dec-12 22:48:03

We haven't had "mass EU immigration" for 300 years.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Dec-12 22:50:24

Of course there are sexist homophobes within the indigenous population, but braodly, as a society, we believe in (and protect by law) equality between people of different races, faiths, sexual orientations and ethnicity. Large numbers of people who do not support those beliefs, who are to be found in certain communities which have not integrated particularly well into the rest of british society, are a problem.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 22:51:55

Only because the EU hasn't existed for that long; we've had mass European migration for far more than the last 300 years.

Illgetmycoat Wed 12-Dec-12 22:57:13

Mais oui! Je deteste l'idee d'Angleterre Multicultural. Mes relatives ont arrived avec William le Conqueror et nous sommes alors tres posh. Tout les monde apres nos - piss off!

So daft. You don't see any 'Romans go home' these days, do you?

Illgetmycoat Wed 12-Dec-12 22:58:11

Zut alors! Je deteste auto correct. Apres nous (obviously)

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 22:58:12

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Yes, and as equality is protected by law and supported by most of society, anyone who moves here is bound to oblige by those conventions. I know some people choose not to, but they are not reason enough to argue against immigration on the whole.

KarlosKKrinkelbeim Wed 12-Dec-12 23:00:35

I wasn't saying they were, merely that the airy fairy smuggery about how marvellous diversity is is';t the whole story. It brings problems too, and we are not, in my view, as open as we should be in discussing them.

Illgetmycoat Wed 12-Dec-12 23:08:18

Ooh la la! J'ai tue le fil.

narmada Wed 12-Dec-12 23:21:10

I have never met a bright racist.

I wonder to what extent threads like this are linked on talkboards of single-issue pressure groups???

Mrs DV I luff you a little bit.

But I do hope you get that post out of your back passage soon, must be uncomfortable ;)

Cozy9 Wed 12-Dec-12 23:23:12

Patrick Moore was by all acounts a racist. David Starkey has been accused of being a racist. If being opposed to mass immigration, or thinking that British culture is superior to most other cultures in the world is racist, than there's a lost of racists in this country, including me.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 23:23:36

I find threads like this very useful. They help me to keep my spreadsheet up to date. Thanks OP. wink

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 23:49:28

British culture is superior to most other cultures in the world is racist,

You have based this assumption on a very vast knowledge of other cultures I guess? I think I have the most superior fanny. I have no personal knowledge of any other fannies, but I reckon mine is the best.

Pendeen Wed 12-Dec-12 23:52:18

OP, Britian is most certainly not multicultural, the very idea is nonsense.

It all depends where you live...

GB mix

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 23:57:14

KarlosKKrinkelbeim You may not have been making that point, but it has been used as an argument on this thread. I agree with you that when you get insular communities and people who practice moral relativism there is a problem. But that's very different to arguing against immigration per se as the OP and other seem to be doing.

Cozy9 You think British culture is "superior to most other cultures in the world"? Words fail me.

SaskiaRembrandtVampireHunter Wed 12-Dec-12 23:59:13

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta My DH insists I have the finest arse on the planet. Admittedly, he hasn't seen every single arse on the planet, but that's his opinion so it must be true.

Jinsei Thu 13-Dec-12 00:11:14

grin @ doingit.

There are so many things I'd like to say to cozy, but I don't like arguing with children so I will restrain myself.

monsterchild Thu 13-Dec-12 00:41:58

If British culture is so much more superior to other cultures, why the surprise about immigration? Isn't it just and fitting that everyone else in the world wants a piece of that superiority?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Thu 13-Dec-12 00:45:14

I am sure it saskia grin
You are better than me jinsei, I can't help but argue with children smile

sashh Thu 13-Dec-12 00:54:23

It would be nice though if everyone who decided to live in the UK learned to speak English since it would make life easier...

Not in certain areas of Wales or some Scottish Islands. Te 'life in the UK test' can be takin in 4 official languages of the UK.

Jahan Thu 13-Dec-12 00:56:58

I always dread reading threads like these but when I do, im so pleased to see that the majority of posters are decent and not racists. I hope its a reflection on society as a whole.

When I went to Turkey last year, some English immigrants had opened up a 'pub serving traditional English food like 'full English breakfast, sausage sandwich, fish and chips and chicken curry' smile

Pendeen Thu 13-Dec-12 00:59:46

"I will also repeat pendeen you come from an ivory tower perspective, I come from a mass inload. "

That's the point.

Your perspective is irrelevant.

Your view is of a tiny minority of the UK.

Here, 99% white, where you are probably less than 50% white.

Yes I agree I'm probably "ivory tower" so, Cornwall is not representative but neither is inner london.

Valdeeves Thu 13-Dec-12 01:07:30

Yep - britains always been multicultural - you have to accept that due to widespread migration the whole world is changing and that's that. For me personally I'm glad as I have a wonderful husband and now two "mixed" children due to migration - and he comes from a family that has provided three adults who have given much to the economy including working directly for the government.
You don't choose where you are born, so why shouldn't you be able to move to have a better life? There are people from all walks of life who take advantage and likewise those who don't. It's pointless getting het up about it. There's only one place where you'll find all the same people and you'd need a time machine to get back - Nazi Germany.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 13-Dec-12 01:21:59

monkey the doors are all but shut to people who have nothing to contribute. The only other thing would be to leave the EU and that would be an economic disaster. So YABU.

Cozy9 Thu 13-Dec-12 01:31:03

We don't HAVE to accept anything, we live in a democracy. Britain has not always had the amount of immigration we have had in the past 15 years, it was deliberately engineered by those on the left to "rub the rights nose in diversity", and to provide future votes for Labour. Do you think Labour politicians will be the ones to suffer when it all goes tits up in the not too distant future?

Mimishimi Thu 13-Dec-12 04:45:43

I'm from Australia and whilst it's true that we do favour skilled immigrants, a large proportion of those coming are from different cultures to the Anglo-Celtic one. The biggest source of illegal immigrants in Australia are British natives who've just assumed it's okay to overstay their visa, considering we were once your colony and all. LOL. With over 250 years of the glorious British Empire on which the sun never sets (ie taking control over other countries) some multiculturalism was bound to be the result. It was also right-wing governments who encouraged immigration to make up for all the numbers that they slaughtered in all those wars, also to encourage a 'flexible labour market' (ie slave wages). This is also true of Australia. It's also true that many of us, or our ancestors, within the Anglo-Celtic-European culture have got picked on from time to time for not being the 'right sort' (whether we be Irish, pikey, 'kikes' etc) so my sympathies for the nativist point of view are pretty thin because they wouldn't have half the population problems that they do if they hadn't spent so much time knocking us all off.

margarethamilton Thu 13-Dec-12 07:09:30

Britain has not always had the amount of immigration we have had in the past 15 years, it was deliberately engineered by those on the left to "rub the rights nose in diversity", and to provide future votes for Labour.

Cozy I'm interested to know your source for this assertion and where you're quoting from. I'm a member of the Labour Party and I'm not aware of this as a tactic for winning votes. hmm

PessaryPam Thu 13-Dec-12 07:15:47

1. Multiculturalism and Multiracialism are used interchangeably and they are completely different.

2. OP is a minority on MN but probably not in RL.

3. I am fine with any race, not fine with some cultures if I'm honest.

4. Think it's more important people participate and improve the general society for us all.

Abitwobblynow Thu 13-Dec-12 07:23:56

margaret, I am afraid it was. You have to remember the visceral hatred of the left, of the impact of Thatcher. I also happen to believe the intentions of the Gramski movement to be a real policy plan. No other ideleology makes the illogic of what has happened in our country in the last 15 years, have any sense.

In 2009 Andrew Neather, a former Labour Home Office and Downing Street adviser, revealed that mass immigration was a deliberate policy by the Left to change the social fabric of the country and to ‘rub the Right’s nose in diversity’.
This was never discussed publicly because Labour strategists feared it would upset the party’s traditional white working-class support. For self-interested political reasons, the public could not possibly be consulted.
Mass immigration gratified the Left in two ways that have inflicted enormous damage on our country. It furthered the notion of multiculturalism — undermining national identity and common values, and preventing the successful integration of immigrant communities into the British cultural mainstream.
Moreover, at a time of growing economic crisis, it added an enormous number of people to Labour’s client state.
Recent immigrants were grateful for their admission to the country, and for the costly safety net of the welfare state that was provided for them: a gratitude that, Labour hoped, would help it garner more votes at elections.
That aside, it is generally accepted that new arrivals to a country — who are often relatively impoverished — are more likely to vote for Leftish governments.

Also at this time Gordon 'I have ended boom and bust' Brown saw the immigration of low-skilled labour, as another way of keeping inflation down (remember we were in a boom). Immigrants undercut wages and therefore kept a lid on rising costs.

Instead of parrotting the self-hating mantra 'multiculti is marvellous and everyone luffs eachother' MN should try and raise the debate a little bit more and project what might happen in the future. What will happen in Tower Hamlets and Bradford in 10 year's time? It that OK?

Abitwobblynow Thu 13-Dec-12 07:27:53

Gramscianism: nicely proven by reams and reams of MN luffliness. Lots of Useful Idiots (Lenin) in these political discussions. Also showing how effective Progressive State Education has been!

The idea of a ‘third face of power’, or ‘invisible power’ has its roots partly, in Marxist thinking about the pervasive power of ideology, values and beliefs in reproducing class relations and concealing contradictions (Heywood, 1994: 100). Marx recognised that economic exploitation was not the only driver behind capitalism, and that the system was reinforced by a dominance of ruling class ideas and values – leading to Engels’s famous concern that ‘false consciousness’ would keep the working class from recognising and rejecting their oppression (Heywood, 1994: 85).

False consciousness, in relation to invisible power, is itself a ‘theory of power’ in the Marxist tradition. It is particularly evident in the thinking of Lenin, who ‘argued that the power of ‘bourgeois ideology’ was such that, left to its own devices, the proletariat would only be able to achieve ‘trade union consciousness’, the desire to improve their material conditions but within the capitalist system’ (Heywood 1994: 85). A famous analogy is made to workers accepting crumbs that fall off the table (or indeed are handed out to keep them quiet) rather than claiming a rightful place at the table.

The Italian communist Antonio Gramsci, imprisoned for much of his life by Mussolini, took these idea further in his Prison Notebooks with his widely influential notions of ‘hegemony’ and the ‘manufacture of consent’ (Gramsci 1971). Gramsci saw the capitalist state as being made up of two overlapping spheres, a ‘political society’ (which rules through force) and a ‘civil society’ (which rules through consent). This is a different meaning of civil society from the ‘associational’ view common today, which defines civil society as a ‘sector’ of voluntary organisations and NGOs. Gramsci saw civil society as the public sphere where trade unions and political parties gained concessions from the bourgeois state, and the sphere in which ideas and beliefs were shaped, where bourgeois ‘hegemony’ was reproduced in cultural life through the media, universities and religious institutions to ‘manufacture consent’ and legitimacy (Heywood 1994: 100-101).

The political and practical implications of Gramsci’s ideas were far-reaching because he warned of the limited possibilities of direct revolutionary struggle for control of the means of production; this ‘war of attack’ could only succeed with a prior ‘war of position’ in the form of struggle over ideas and beliefs, to create a new hegemony (Gramsci 1971). This idea of a ‘counter-hegemonic’ struggle – advancing alternatives to dominant ideas of what is normal and legitimate – has had broad appeal in social and political movements. It has also contributed to the idea that ‘knowledge’ is a social construct that serves to legitimate social structures (Heywood 1994: 101).

In practical terms, Gramsci’s insights about how power is constituted in the realm of ideas and knowledge – expressed through consent rather than force – have inspired the use of explicit strategies to contest hegemonic norms of legitimacy. Gramsci’s ideas have influenced popular education practices, including the adult literacy and consciousness-raising methods of Paulo Freire in his Pedagogy of the Oppressed (1970), liberation theology, methods of participatory action research (PAR), and many approaches to popular media, communication and cultural action.

The idea of power as ‘hegemony’ has also influenced debates about civil society. Critics of the way civil society is narrowly conceived in liberal democratic thought – reduced to an ‘associational’ domain in contrast to the state and market – have used Gramsci’s definition to remind us that civil society can also be a public sphere of political struggle and contestation over ideas and norms. The goal of ‘civil society strengthening’ in development policy can thus be pursued either in a neo-liberal sense of building civic institutions to complement (or hold to account) states and markets, or in a Gramscian sense of building civic capacities to think differently, to challenge assumptions and norms, and to articulate new ideas and visions.

Valdeeves Thu 13-Dec-12 07:28:39

IvyKatie - can you check the history section I've left you a post?

margarethamilton Thu 13-Dec-12 07:44:47

Thanks wobbly. Interesting reading.

thebody Thu 13-Dec-12 07:56:09

My dh lived in Sydney for 6 months, its incredibly ethnically diverse and fantastic.

As for us I couldn't give a shiny shite what colour or creed my neighbour is as long as they abide by the law, live productive, fulfilled and happy lives and spread good cheer all year.

seeker Thu 13-Dec-12 08:52:20

"My dh lived in Sydney for 6 months, its incredibly ethnically diverse and fantastic."

Apart from a noticeable absence of Australia's indigenous black population.........

NumericalMum Thu 13-Dec-12 08:57:39

There are some monumentally stupid statements on here.

My farming friends have been using migrant workers since the early 90s. That is a long time!
Immigrants cannot work until they are "legal".
Immigrants will have no access to benefits etc unless they have completed a lot of requirements including often being in full time employment for 5 years.
My mother, married to a person with a British passport, will not be allowed to move to the Uk unless she jumps through some pretty substantial hoops for a 60 year old!
And as for all immigrants being working class I can't think of more than 10% of my DC's school class who are "white British". This is a few paying school with like minded immigrants who have come to work hard and get the best for our children whilst paying immense amounts of tax! There are barristers, solicitors, doctors, dentists, accountants, actuaries... Yes a bunch of scroungers :-/

Valdeeves Thu 13-Dec-12 09:24:32

Ivy Katy can you find me in the family history section

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Thu 13-Dec-12 09:26:53

Hear hear numerical mum. A lot of this gets lost in the far right / daily fail rhetoric.

Abitwobblynow Thu 13-Dec-12 09:45:03

'There are some monumentally stupid statements on here. My farming friends have been using migrant workers since the early 90s. That is a long time!'

The person who is being momumentally stupid here is you, Numerical. Telling people they are monumentally stupid sadly for you, doesn't make them so. You are comparing apples (migratory labour pattens of the 90s) with oranges (uncontrolled immigration and the imposition of multicultural theory), for a start, but you are also overlooking something. Think that statement through! Think about it!

WHY, in the early 90s, were farmers required to import labour, when there was a large pool of unemployed in Britain? I also come from a farming family. The pickers used to be the women from the surrounding villagers, why did that change?

Remember the question is; WHY? Leave out the fall of the Berlin Wall. (the answer is not party political)

Answers (economic, not rhetorical, insulting or emotional) on a back of a post card. Think, Mumsnet, Think!

Click, grind whirrrrrr...

Anniegetyourgun Thu 13-Dec-12 10:30:30

Were farmers "required to" import labour, though, and if so, who required them to?

sieglinde Thu 13-Dec-12 10:34:21

seeker, there are urban indigenous people in Sydney, though unless you go to the wrong right bits you are not likely to meet them. i say this because one way for Australians and Americans/canadians not to deal with the problem of indigenousness is to say that only full-blooded tribal people 'count' as indigenous. But as a former land rights campaigner, I used to hang out in Redfern with a lot of people with the usual range of problems caused by poverty, and some of them were indigenous Australians. Redfern has now been gentrified, and so have the sites on the harbour headlands which also had a significant Koori population in my childhood, often living in the sandstone caves where the Iora saw the white sails in the sun.

All this points to the vicious ghettoisation of Sydney, of which most tourists remain blissfully unaware. get a train west, towards Campbelltown, and you will leave the prosperous harbourside - white-dominated - and move into areas where the majority of the population is Asian. The temperature rises, and the westerlies are grilling, and the pollution becomes noticeable, and so does the poverty. None of this is their fault, and they are all working like mad to get out. But it's not the pretty picture most tourists get, either.

WhataSook Thu 13-Dec-12 12:15:53

oh that's right seeker I've seen you on other threads...you backpacked around Australia for a month and that makes you able to get on this fucking soap box of yours about Australian Aboriginals...

seeker Thu 13-Dec-12 12:17:33

grin
Wrong person, I'm afraid. I've never actually been to Australia.

seeker Thu 13-Dec-12 12:19:30

And I can only remember mentioning Austalian aborigines once.

Biut I am hqppy to claim the soapbox- it's certainly one that needs to be brought out a bit more often.

WhataSook Thu 13-Dec-12 12:22:04

oh sorry seeker (then there is someone with a very similar name to yours who hates all Australians and thinks they're all a bunch of racist twats. If that's not you I do apologise!)

JassyRadlett Thu 13-Dec-12 12:25:11

Seeker, I don't disagree with the need for the soapbox but if it's not from an accurate and informed perspective you can hurt your case (and it's one I care deeply about).

The myth that indigenous people don't live in Australia's big cities is a fairly pervasive one, and it can be quite damaging in policy terms (or at least it was 8 years ago when I was involved in ATSI policy, before I became a filthy immigrant to these shores...)

seeker Thu 13-Dec-12 12:33:23

I did once get into trouble by saying I would take no lessons on racism from Australians- could that be what you are remembering?

NumericalMum Thu 13-Dec-12 12:40:04

But immigration is not uncontrolled? EU members are allowed to work here as we are allowed to work in the EU.
Most other countries are stopped from immigrating to the UK with very rigorous laws.

WhataSook Thu 13-Dec-12 12:45:32

no I don't think so - I agree that Australia has a long way to go, but the poster I was thinking of had travelled through Australia on a working holiday visa (for 5 months I think) and then thought they were an expert on it and came on here saying how all Australian's were racist. Which obviously is a massive generalisation and utter bollocks (some are some aren't...)

Jassy I have lived in Sydney and Brisbane and saw plenty of Aboriginals living in these cities. Where I didn't see them though was in my professional/corporate world in these cities which might be where the myth comes from? (no idea, just speculating!)

Cozy9 Thu 13-Dec-12 12:48:22

NumericalMum, how is being allowed to work in the EU beneficial to most British people?

NumericalMum Thu 13-Dec-12 13:08:34

I guess you should ask all of the "ex-pats" working in Europe?
I have seen many of those "escape to **" style programs with people heading to all sorts of countries setting up gites, hotels etc. I assume people prefer the warmer climate?

JassyRadlett Thu 13-Dec-12 13:12:31

WhataSook (love your username!) I think that's about right and your point earlier about ghettoisation resonates.

And seeker, while I won't deny that Australia has a racism problem that doesn't make every Australian a racist - surely you see that's pretty offensive?

Australia has a pretty dark history both with its indigenous population and when it comes to non-white immigrants. But some of the made-up rubbish I've seen spouted on these threads about when things became legal/illegal in Australia make me despair for people's ability to fact check (ie use Google properly).

Anniegetyourgun Thu 13-Dec-12 13:15:45
GreenEggsAndNichts Thu 13-Dec-12 13:16:12

The pickers used to be the women from the surrounding villagers, why did that change?

I don't know. Considering that pickers are paid the absolute minimum which farmers can get away with, I imagine some people did the sums and realised they were better off doing other work, or on benefits.

I realise that statement will cause people to get upset with me, but it is a fact. Jobs such as picking fruit/veg are tough, and the local population of most Western countries are loath to do them. See: Mexican immigrants in the US, or Polish summer workers in Germany (even before the EU Germany had special visas just for Polish people to come pick asparagus, the locals could live better off their generous benefit system than do the work themselves).

People think farmers aren't "forced" to take foreign labour, but it's a very slim profit margin when the population demands cheap fruit and veg.

Beveridge Thu 13-Dec-12 13:30:22

I picked grapes in Australia just over 10 years ago while on a Working Holiday Visa. The farmer relied on backpacker labour as the locals generally wouldn't do it as the pay was too low and the work pretty hard. For me it was the ideal job for a month and it was a way of continuing to fund my travels(swanned off to Bali for a month with the proceeds!). I don't think i would have been in a hurry to do it long term if I'd had rent/bills to pay.

The farmer was a decent guy, he even paid by the hour not the bucket but if the profit margin isn't there you can't bankrupt yourself. He reckoned he would have to move to mechanical picking withn a few years (wrecks your vines).

EdgarAllanPond Thu 13-Dec-12 15:15:36

most Austrailians i have met reaffirm seekers opinion though.

i have spent two weekends in Sydney, too smile

EdgarAllanPond Thu 13-Dec-12 15:19:20

and working abroad was one of the best experiences of my life. everyone thinking about giving it a go : go for it!

i hope for a borders-free world for everyone's benefit.

also: most employers will take UK over non-UK for a variety of reasons (xenophobia included) - if people employ foreigners it usually reflects a skillset shortage.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 13-Dec-12 15:20:19

bev i bloody loved Ubud. great little place.

Cozy9 Thu 13-Dec-12 16:26:38

A borders free world would be a nightmare for everyone except the ultra-rich.

PrincessScrumpy Thu 13-Dec-12 16:29:07

Not new! I have a problem with lazy scroungers - I don't care where people are from if happy to give to their community. Btw, not against benefits but just those who take advantage.

suzydelarosa Thu 13-Dec-12 17:03:19

Change is difficult and I understand it can be difficult for people to see their communities change. Where once people shared background, class, language and religion with their neighbours now the commonalities are much more about shared belief in democracy and probably capitalism.

I think the OPs comments are valid. Barking at people to accept multiculturalism doesn't always do the trick.

PessaryPam Thu 13-Dec-12 17:08:11

Abitwobblynow why are you being ignored. I understand what you are saying but you seem to have been rendered a non person. How very Soviet!

Beograde Thu 13-Dec-12 17:19:48

I think an issue that isn't addressed here is class. I'm very much of the opinion that immigration and multiculturalism is a good thing ... but, and here comes the but, I think one's experience of immigration and multiculturalism is linked to class.

I'm fairly well educated, and work in quite a multinational environment. My colleagues are Serbs and Indians and Chinese and French and Italians. We all have higher degrees, and I think importantly, we have shared opportunities for migration. I could get a job in Germany or France or Canada doing something similar to what I do here. When I interact with less skilled immigrants, it's typically in a restaurant setting, or I might be able to employ a polish plumber a bit more cheaply.

However, I think for many people with fewer qualifications and opportunities, your experience of immigration is the polish plumber or taxi driver, who will be prepared to work for less than you, and they present a threat to your livelihood. I have sympathy for those who are at least fearful of immigration, even if I think they're wrong.

PessaryPam Thu 13-Dec-12 17:30:53

Beo, for sure the influx of workers has been regarded differently according to your work type. I know many programmers who are very resentful of the cheap Indian programmers. I am not one of them I hasten to add as I work in a very niche area.

DolomitesDonkey Thu 13-Dec-12 17:36:17

beograde your experience is not multi-culturism. Your colleagues are all academic high-achievers striving for excellence and advancement. Your menus may differ, your values don't. Please don't tell me that it's because "we" have no class.

As someone so rightly pointed out up-thread, wanting similar cultural values is not the same as requiring similar skin tones.

Beograde Thu 13-Dec-12 17:53:29

Dolomites, I don't entirely disagree with you - I was just in Bangladesh this week, working with Bangladeshi engineers - and of the four I was working with, two had taken their masters in the US, one in Australia, and one in the UK - although the food we eat is different, and they have a different religions, we have a great deal in common.

I wasn't attacking the working class, just to clarify

FergusSingsTheBlues Thu 13-Dec-12 18:47:34

It's not about "no class" its the basic fact that the less skill a job requires, the easier it is to pitch directly against local people if you are immigrant because money is the driver. If you are specialised in a particular field, it is is easier to
Withstand economic competition from others as its less about undercutting the competition. Plus barriers to entry are higher where there is regulation or laws requiring that certificates are homolgated etc.

Brits often like to call themselves expats when going off to Spain etc to make a new life, but there is no difference between them and immigrants coming into the UK to do the same, and in both situations they end up in direct compeition with local workers. But of course, its exciting to go abroad a find a new life, not so acceptable when people come here to do just the same and often for more pressing reasons. These double standards are what i find totally depressing. My sympathies lie just as much with spanish bar staff as with british brickies. So, yes, class does come very much into it.

topsi Thu 13-Dec-12 18:58:43

Multi cultural is great when they come here to work and contribute. However this is not always the case.

Rindercella Thu 13-Dec-12 19:24:49

'They'. Who is this 'they' you speak of topsi? I find language like that terribly divisive. Takes me back to the us and them mentality of the 70s. I am sure no-one would like to live back in those times again.

PessaryPam Thu 13-Dec-12 20:56:06

Anyone topsi, we have enough of our own problems without importing other peoples.

EdgarAllanPond Thu 13-Dec-12 21:20:52

given one problem - skills shortage in the NHS - has been solved by immigration, why not look at immigration as something with plenty of advantages?

EdgarAllanPond Thu 13-Dec-12 21:22:28

a borders free world would get everyone to take very seriously the conditions people live in in other countries.

Cozy9 Thu 13-Dec-12 22:24:15

It would just lead to everyone living in 3rd world conditions except for a very small number of privileged people.

TwoFacedCows Thu 13-Dec-12 23:45:29

OP i whole heartedly agree with you. makes me bloody sick.

MyBaby1day Fri 14-Dec-12 01:07:25

YABU, I am a half Asian person and am proud to be so!. We are all equal, I only judge people on their behaviour NOT their race/ethnicity. There are still many English people about.

DolomitesDonkey Fri 14-Dec-12 06:38:23

Mybaby, but your point is exactly the same as those saying "enough with multiculturalism". You say you judge people on behaviour, which is not the same as race. I bet you are proud of your Asian heritage, but I bet there are some bits which make you want to bang your head against the table - that is culture, not race.

theplodder Fri 14-Dec-12 07:01:47

At least in Australia they make a fair go of actually running a system which by and large tries to take skilled immigrants and has an organised system for distributing them to areas where skills are in demand etc.

Unfortunately for the UK, it has taken in several million largely unskilled third world migrants in the last 15 years, and are about to open the door to potentially hundreds of thousands more when Romanians and Bulgarians are permitted access in the New Year.

The UK has, and continues to importing the bottom of the barrel from countries around the world, and losing many of it's skilled residents to countries which now offer a better quality of life and more prospects and which actually have proper immigration policies that attract skilled people who can add value in a real knowledge economy - not those who come to sell pound a bowl fruit for cash down the market, claim benefits, or send money from earnings back "home", leaving the UK economy entirely.

What the UK has done to itself is not normal, it's borne of total incompetence by those who govern and administrate.

Do the Brits want even more police resources tied up in tracking down overseas crime networks who come and go and operate in the UK as they please?

Some people who write here believe their own hype of the joys of unskilled mass immigration. Britain is not looked at as a "beacon of tolerance and multicultural peace" - it's well regarded to have in the last 15 years utterly failed in controlling it's borders, whilst allowing unfettered acesss to people from every corner of the world, regardless of ability, or worth, or honesty, or desire to to fit in.

Looking from the outside, other European countries are only too happy to funnel these people to the UK - they know the authorities are incompetent and often compliant.

Things have got to such a stage now that are now thousands upon thousands of illegal overcrowded shanties / sheds which people live in, being built in East London boroughs and other places, by migrants, legal and illegal, every single day due to this uncontrolled influx. Living conditions that have not existed for over 100 years.

All very well to look the other way and stick your fingers in your ears and say "we're all immigrants really" and pretend it's all great but reality will catch up.
There's big trouble ahead for the UK - it's a powder keg, and i can well see why many people are now getting to the point where they feel strangers in their own country.

drizzlecake Fri 14-Dec-12 07:47:09

I am not against immigrants because of their race or ethnicity but I am against immigrants who have profoundly different cultures to traditional British attitudes and are here not because they admire and want to emulate us but because they can follow their own entrenched and extreme beliefs in a more comfortable and wealthier lifestyle than in their own countries which are unsafe and corrupt.

And because of this they don't want to assimilate or change so I feel we are storing up infixable problems for future Britain. Perhaps their children or grandchildren will be more broad minded and accepting of other ways of life but, as their is no pressure in this country to do this as it is seen as racist, perhaps they won't.

cory Fri 14-Dec-12 07:57:54

What I have heard of Polish workers is that many employers are keen to have them because they are in fact highly skilled- in practical, manual skills, which is something that is undervalued here, but not in other countries. A culture which regards carpentry as unskilled is likely to find itself outcompeted in this area.

as EdgarAllanPond put it: "if people employ foreigners it usually reflects a skillset shortage"

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 14-Dec-12 08:08:26

drizzlecake I could not agree more. Very well put.

drizzlecake Fri 14-Dec-12 08:15:44

Wow, thanks Zombies. I expected a bashing from the multicultural luvvies. no doubt that will follow

EIizaDay Fri 14-Dec-12 08:17:13

Am listening to LBC radio on internet just now and this very subject has come up. Interesting listening!

topsi Fri 14-Dec-12 08:31:01

By 'they' I refered to imigrants of any nationality, race or colour. They are all welcome as far as I am concerned but as long as they have something to offer!
I know lots of people from a variety of different countries who have come here to work and contribute.
However I also hear lots of stories first hand of people born in this country going back to their parent's country of origin and marrying someone they have met once or twice before, bringing them back here to then have a zillion kids which the rest of the population is expected to look after!

Eliza22 Fri 14-Dec-12 08:43:59

Thing is, we're ALL immigrants, aren't we?

Being very pale and blonde, my guess is, I'm from Nordic (Viking) stock ancestry myself. The Romans brought my ex-husband's lot in (I think) as he's swarthy dark with black hair and only glances at the sun to go brown. My son has the auburn colouring of his (way back) Irish ancestors. William the Conqueror brought a load of French types here, in 1066. We're the culmination of hundreds and thousands of years of "immigration" aren't we?

And we "British" (in the way you mean, I think) did terrible things around the world, in the name of Empire.

smile

samandi Fri 14-Dec-12 08:46:20

drizzlecake makes a very good point. As far as I'm concerned immigrants should be prepared to integrate and respect general British attitudes if they are to be welcomed. Of course saying that makes you a target for people whose minds are so open it's a wonder they don't fall out.

The worst sexual harassment I've had in this country has all been from immigrants.

And we don't need unskilled workers who are prepared to work for £10 a day and live six to a room.

given one problem - skills shortage in the NHS - has been solved by immigration

It has also, sadly, lost several countries their own trained doctors leading to a lack of medical provision in those countries. It also staggers me that foreign doctors and nurses working in Britain are not currently required to be able to speak English.

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Fri 14-Dec-12 08:47:28

Without immigration, I would be out of a job, since I help all those nasty furriners get visas.

OP I don't understand why you are getting your knickers in a twist about this now - as many have said, our country has always been a melting pot. And I love it.

wildirishrose Fri 14-Dec-12 09:09:48

I brought over a Filipino housekeeper the process was very simple and easy and only took a few months to complete, in 5 years she can bring over her DD, DH or Mother and this is the problem. With every person entering the UK over the last 10 years we can expect most to bring extended family on top of all the new applications. I don’t have a problem with anyone coming here but I do think the process is too easy.

PessaryPam Fri 14-Dec-12 09:12:51

It's Filipina, as she's a woman. Can I ask why you could not recruit here instead?

BegoniaBampot Fri 14-Dec-12 09:17:30

I don't think it's wrong or surprising that people don't like to see a lot of change or the status quo of their country changing. Imagine most people all over the world feel the same whether it be Japan, India, Thailand or wherever. The UK has always had immigrants and emigrants. Always been a mish mash one way or another. We can't really moan too much given how we went out and populated and changed huge swathes of the world. Tis the way things are now and there's no going back.

wildirishrose Fri 14-Dec-12 09:19:49

Can I ask why you could not recruit here instead?

I did recruit from here first, the agency girls were dreadful and the other girls I interviewed, around 12 of them, were here illegally.

DolomitesDonkey Fri 14-Dec-12 09:30:23

Why do we need to import doctors? Do we not have adequate medical schools of our own? Are our own people "too stupid" to study medicine? No, of course not - but I believe there are problems within NHS recruitment itself (am not a doctor, but have read around the subject on thestudentroom). It's ludicrous to suggest that our own medical schools are not able to provide qualified staff.

Fwiw I work abroad in a country which is lorded worldwide as an epicentre of multicultural society and acceptance. However, they have now admitted that the fabric of their culture has been damaged over the last 15 years and are at a loss as how to "fix" it. Integration has not happened, instead there are vast swathes of cities which are no-go areas.

cherryjellow Fri 14-Dec-12 09:41:24

I have foreign friends who work speak english and intergrate.... They are amazing, and im sure the type of people the uk welcome.

But i get frustrated with those who come over just to use the nhs, ( i have met plenty that have), refuse to work, dont intergrate or commit crimes. Its just a shame they give the nice hard working immigrants a bad reputation.

I think immigration is fine, but it seems out of control at the moment and not enough power to quickly remove those who shouldnt be here.

Plus Skilled workers like doctors are probably more needed in their home nations than here.

cherryjellow Fri 14-Dec-12 09:43:18

When i applied for nursing there were not enough places to study for all the acceptable candidates.....

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Fri 14-Dec-12 09:57:33

Wild DH, obviously; DD, again obviously if she is under 18. If she is over 18 it is very very hard to get an adult child to the UK unless they qualify in their own right. There is, quite sensibly, no reason why an adult child needs to live in the same country as their parents unless there are exceptional circumstances.

Her DM? Again, if she's lucky. Very lucky. If her DM is 65+ it is easier but still not straightforward. If she is under 65 she would only be given a visa in the most exceptional circumstances.

DolomitesDonkey Fri 14-Dec-12 10:00:37

cherry I bet there were plenty of places on "lightweight subject" courses though. sad

GreenEggsAndNichts Fri 14-Dec-12 10:01:51

cory You're right. People go on about unskilled labour but the fact is, if someone has trained in Poland in a trade, that training was far more thorough than the process here. The education system in this country doesn't take trade seriously.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 14-Dec-12 10:37:51

wildirishrose you're factually mistaken. Only dependents can be brought across and that does not include parents or siblings, not anymore. And I don't believe in her category she could bring across any dependents any more or even get the right to remain permanently once her visa runs out.

wordfactory Fri 14-Dec-12 10:42:14

Ed Milliband is going to give a speech today saying that the last labour government made serious mistakes vis a vis immigration. In particular he will concede that no where near enough was done to ensure that all immigrants integrated well and accepted UK standards of equality and fairness.

He will say that the assumption that integration would take care of itself, was misplaced.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 14-Dec-12 10:42:52

drizzle I speak as an immigrant. Sadly it is people like me whose voice and intentions are not heard when people look at the immigration issue blindly and in a bigoted manner.
I want to integrate, I want to be part of the ethos, I do not want to stay in a little cultural bubble.
When I come up against people who club me as a "them" without reference to who I am as a person, it's very frustrating.

wildirishrose Fri 14-Dec-12 11:10:49

don't believe in her category she could bring across any dependents any more or even get the right to remain permanently once her visa runs out.

There are quite a few Filipino housekeepers I know who have brought their DH and children (over 18) over. Its easier for them to come if they have relatives in the UK.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 14-Dec-12 11:16:37

Wildirishrose I suspect that was before the laws were changed. Web highly skilled immigrants would find it difficult now to bring over a parent who had no other family except them.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 14-Dec-12 11:17:13

even not web!

TrazzleMISTLEtoes Fri 14-Dec-12 11:28:36

Wild it has become significantly more difficult to bring family members across as of this year.

alemci Fri 14-Dec-12 11:30:04

I think it was fine until New Labour took over in 1997 and there are just too many people now ( I live in greater london) and I agree with what plodder is saying especially about the shanty sheds - a sure way to have ill health for the residents. We are only a small island. Also the other European countries do seem to encourage people to come here.

It is also a shame that the young people already here haven't been trained up and given opportunities to do some of the jobs.

Both my grandparents on my paternal side were immigrants.

ReallyTired Fri 14-Dec-12 14:03:58

I thought the law was changing in that employers could not bring in people to do jobs that paid less than a certain amount. The Filipino housekeeper would have to be extremely well paid to be allowed in.

The issue is excessive immigration from EU nations rather than non eu immigration. Our young people with limited experience find it hard to compete for jobs. I am not sure what is the best way forward on this. This is an EU wide problem and needs discussion at EU level.

Shagmundfreud Fri 14-Dec-12 14:12:28

Now you see I believe that immigration improves the genetic 'stock' of a country in the sense that we are creaming off some of the most energetic, versatile and resilient people from other countries.

If immigrants come to this country and take jobs away from those people already living here it's often because employers may feel they get more for their money - in terms of intelligence and resourcefulness - when they employ an immigrant.

wordfactory Fri 14-Dec-12 14:15:35

shag and sometimes it's because employers can get away with a lot more with immigrants. Hard earned rights can be sidelined if you can get yourself a willing yet temporary work force (not to mention an illegal one).

ReallyTired Fri 14-Dec-12 15:09:29

"If immigrants come to this country and take jobs away from those people already living here it's often because employers may feel they get more for their money - in terms of intelligence and resourcefulness - when they employ an immigrant. "

I am sure what you are saying is true.

Immigrants do provide employers with more for their money. Employers have no incentive to train up inexperienced people to do a job when they can get someone with experience for peanuts.

The UK has a massive problems with NEETs. Many graduates do have skills but they have no experience. They find themselves in the trap that you need the experience to get the job and can only get experience by doing the job. Unless you have a rich daddy then doing unpaid internships is not an option.

I don't know what is the best way round this issue. In the long term not getting our long people into paid work will damage us as a nation.

lovetomoan Fri 14-Dec-12 15:32:56

my 1st ever biscuit

wordfactory Fri 14-Dec-12 15:46:27

reallytired it is quite usual now for factories to employ almost all their staff on short term contracts. That way they can avoid holiday pay, sickness pay, maternity pay, redundancy etc

Plenty of Eastern Europeans prepared to work that way.

PessaryPam Fri 14-Dec-12 16:12:44

Shagmundfreud Now you see I believe that immigration improves the genetic 'stock' of a country in the sense that we are creaming off some of the most energetic, versatile and resilient people from other countries.

Well maybe but then you get this....

news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9714000/9714582.stm

MrsDeVere Fri 14-Dec-12 16:37:36

No pessery, you get the opposite of that confused

PoppyAmex Fri 14-Dec-12 17:05:25

What really annoys me is the lack of honesty behind all these arguments.

The reality is you're not annoyed because immigrants come and take your jobs, you're not annoyed because it's changing the "cultural and social fabric" of this country... in fact you're not even annoyed about immigration!

What you're annoyed about is a certain type of immigrant and THAT'S what makes you a racist and a xenophobe.

I'm from Portugal and was an immigrant in Australia for 8 years and am now in this country because I married a Scottish man and my baby was born here.

I brought money earned abroad to buy my house, I employ British people (accountants, gardeners, cleaners etc.) and I have never heard a single complaint about my presence in Britain.

In fact, people like you even complain to ME about "immigrants" and when I protest (as I'm one myself) they say "it's different".

You have no issue with immigrants from Sweden, US, Canada, Germany or Holland. And WE KNOW WHY.

PessaryPam Fri 14-Dec-12 17:06:27

DeVere is the BBC wrong then? I think it's stupid to lump all immigration together. Different groups behave very differently in the host society.

I would agree that interbreeding immigrants do strengthen the general genetic pool of a society. Apparently Ireland has a very high incidence of genetic diseases because of being closed off over many generations so people were more likely to be marrying someone they were related to in some way. Hence recessive conditions are more likely to occur.

I do understand biology but in order to get the strengthening effect they have to actually interbreed in the 1st place!

Rindercella Fri 14-Dec-12 17:06:52

Poppy, you have it spot on!

PessaryPam Fri 14-Dec-12 17:12:00

Poppy I think people can have the right to be annoyed by more than one aspect of a situation. There are economic and cultural consequences to our society and it's a very complex issue. I may be extremely happy to have my Indonesian friend living and working here and then be less than thrilled at a Somalian family of 10 living off benefits and taking NHS resources. The former has integrated and has married a local guy, the latter will remain in their own community and carry on with 'cultural practices' which I as a feminist find morally repugnant.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Fri 14-Dec-12 17:19:52

poppy and pessary you're actually both right.
The truth is there are some people who don't care how much you integrate, if you don't look a certain way, they will always be resentful of you.
And not everyone can be tarred with the same brush. When I see other immigrants who insist on not integrating it sets my teeth on edge too. What's the point of living in a different country then- might as well go back. I wouldn't say marrying someone from here is the only way to integrate though.

Rindercella Fri 14-Dec-12 17:22:54

British 'expats' never do that do they Pessary? All gather together in the same community, don't integrate into the culture where they are living, don't learn the language...nope, I can't think of a single country where British expats live where that happens. Apart from Hong Kong. Oh, and Singapore. Crikey, Spain too. And Italy. Gosh, just about everywhere actually. You know Pessary, it's the nature of humans - we tend to gather where we feel most comfortable.

cory Fri 14-Dec-12 17:24:33

If you were right, Pam, an immigrant Swedish SAHM who speaks poor English and carries on an ex-pat pickled herrings and meatballs lifestyle would encounter far more prejudice and hostility than a degree educated Indian who pays high taxes and plays cricket in his spare time. And do we believe this to be the case? hmm

The one person who would never encounter any prejudice would be a black native speaker of English born in this country and with no exposure to foreign culture of any kind. And this is what we see around us? hmm

PessaryPam Fri 14-Dec-12 17:25:31

Zombies, I agree, I was just hi-lighting extremes.

My views are pretty liberal but I do think we can be a soft touch because it's easy to scream racist, it's like being accused of being a witch back in the dark ages. It shuts down discussion and leads to simmering resentment.

Some people just don't like people who are different from them, I think it's their loss.