to be shocked that less than half of people in London are white

(412 Posts)
Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 18:11:13

I was reading the article below and was shocked to see how much this country especially London has changed over the last ten years and feel concerned that immigration is too high for what is an already overcrowded island especially in the south east!

www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/dec/11/census-2011-religion-race-education?intcmp=239

Just because someone isn't white doesn't mean they aren't British, you know? A lot of black people will have been born here, a lot of them will be as cockney as white cockneys.

I really don't see your point.

valiumredhead Tue 11-Dec-12 18:13:48

I was listening to this on the radio earlier.

BalthierBunansa Tue 11-Dec-12 18:14:18

A lot of POC in London are 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, therefore British born.

Roseformeplease Tue 11-Dec-12 18:14:18

And it is fewer, not less. Racist and doesn't have good ENGLISH grammar!

StuntGirl Tue 11-Dec-12 18:15:44

It also states that 86% of people are white. Hardly a minority is it?

Not all british people are white...

Also the news said this was on par with most of Europe. We can travel and settle at whim to most places in the world so everywhere is getting more
Diverse now and thats not a bad thing in my opinion.

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:17:29

I'm not shocked. We are a multi-cultural society and, as such, our ethnic make-up is constantly changing.

I am, however, a little surprised. I wouldn't have thought we were anywhere near caucasion being the minority ethnic group. I actually thought I had read that the proportion of black/asian people in London was actually surprisingly low. Maybe it was the countrywide statistics I am thinking of - I remember thinking "Really? That low?"

PeoniesPlease Tue 11-Dec-12 18:17:36

Oh, ffs. What everyone else said. You can be British without being white, you can be white without being British, blah blah blah.

What I'd like to be told is why there is an unwritten rule in some people's minds that you must stay in the country you are born in?

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:18:39

Oh. 86%.

Yes, OP. If you think that 86% is less than half then I can see how you would be shocked. You do know that there are one hundred percents, not two hundred, don't you?

DystopianReality Tue 11-Dec-12 18:18:46

My BIL is 2nd generation Sri Lankan. He went to cambridge and contributes to British society is a way that many, many 'white British' people don't.
Does that 'shock' you?
I am proud of our multi-cultural society and live and work amongst it.
I, too am struggling to see your point.

SantaWearsGreen Tue 11-Dec-12 18:19:02

I don't really see a problem with any of it.. 85% are white British in overall UK population.

Stuffingballs Tue 11-Dec-12 18:19:16

Do you only have a problem with non-white immigrants? OP

Goodness me there are some people with twatty, ill thought out opinions on here today.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Tue 11-Dec-12 18:19:49

On a related note - Can't link to it because I can't find it but I read this morning that mixed race couples are more accepted now than ever. I was shocked to read that only in 1987 50% of the population of this country were opposed to people marrying outside their ethnicity.

It went down to 40% in the 90s. The 19 90s and it's still at 40%!

Now it's apparently 15%.

I had no idea it was that high. 50% is something I would have expected to see in the 40s, not the 80s

laptopdancer Tue 11-Dec-12 18:19:59

I will be in London next week.

I am white.

Oops. I am an immigrant shock

StuntGirl Tue 11-Dec-12 18:20:31

I'm dying to leave England baubles. I hope other nations don't hold the same viewpoint!

BalthierBunansa Tue 11-Dec-12 18:21:26

Also OP, there is a lot more mixed race children being born, who also count as 'non white' and British

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:21:41

Stuffing - but non-white immigrants are different , don't you know?

My late gran got quite racist in her old age. When I pointed out that she was the daughter of an immigrant, she always claimed that was entirely different. When I pushed her on it one day, she admitted that it was because he was eastern european and white, and therefore not a real immigrant.

msrisotto Tue 11-Dec-12 18:21:44

My black Jamaican born colleague was saying how bad it was that whites could be a minority in a traditionally white country. I guess things change and that's not necessarily a bad thing!

"You do know that there are one hundred percents, not two hundred, don't you?"

She probs learned that off Jeremy Kyle, where people are always "200% POSITIVE" about things.

StuntGirl Tue 11-Dec-12 18:23:30

The 86% was for the whole of England and Wales, the figure for London is 45% white.

Skiffen Tue 11-Dec-12 18:23:33

I'm far more bothered that my children are growing up in an area where less than 2% of the population are anything other than white British - I miss the cultures and diversity of a more mixed area.

My first thought on reading your op was, "you don't have to be white to be British," and my second is that the ethnic make up of an area does not in any way indicate immigration levels are too high - sheer numbers of people may indicate overpopulation but there ethnic origin and skin tone has naff all to do with it.

Your post comes across as racist - if you didn't mean to be so rude you may wish to rethink it.

rainbowinthesky Tue 11-Dec-12 18:23:44

There are vast amounts of white immigrants living in London. What on eart is your point? It's clearly just a colour of skin issue for you.

Skiffen Tue 11-Dec-12 18:23:56

OMG - their blush

Lilithmoon Tue 11-Dec-12 18:23:58

OP can you point out where you have found that statement? hmm angry

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:24:33

Or the x-factor. Where they will give 1010% if selected.

plantsitter Tue 11-Dec-12 18:24:33

It says WHITE BRITISH, not white. Plenty of British but not white and white but not British. Read it properly before you start ridiculous posts. As if it's particularly shocking anyway. Hope you don't live in London as part of the reason I moved here was so I had to listen to proportionately less racist bollocks like this.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 11-Dec-12 18:25:44

"I am, however, a little surprised. I wouldn't have thought we were anywhere near caucasion being the minority ethnic group"

correct me if i'm wrong but less than half doesn't mean an ethnic minority unless the other group is all in the same ethnic group?

so it could be 46% white people, 54% non white people made up of all different ethnicities that indiviually make up less than 46% meaning there are still more white people that the people from other ethnic backgrounds. so white not being an ethnic minority. or do i have that all wrong confused

goralka Tue 11-Dec-12 18:25:49

you phrased it so much better than I could have plantsitter.....

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 18:27:13

London isn't somewhere I'd particularly want to live, unless I had a really well paid job in the city or something.

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 18:27:31

The rate of immigration is concerning due to limited space, according to the census 3.8 million people arrived here in the last ten years but 1.2 million between 1991 and 2000. The rate of immigration is rising fast, not sure when it will end as there is already a housing shortage.

I think it is surprising that fewer than half the people who live in London are white, i did not say 'not British'

TheCortanaThatStoleChristmas Tue 11-Dec-12 18:28:13

If you were only alerted to the changes when you read the article I would take that as you not noticing anything different for the last 10 years, no?

BitBewilderedChristmasTree Tue 11-Dec-12 18:28:28

I am first generation British, but am white. So ner!

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:28:29

I am confused.

OK, the 86% is for the whole country. I take back my comment about the OP's mathematical ability on that point.

However, that article says that 45% of Londoners are white British. So presumably there are also a fair number of non-British white people? Northern and easterm European presumably featuring quite heavily at the moment, as well as Antipodeans, Americans and Canadians.

So where does the OP get the less than 50% are white figure?

FivesGoldNorks Tue 11-Dec-12 18:28:35

Op not been back...
Fwiw I live in a small northern village and was quite surprised to find that many areas of London have white as the minority by a mile. I do not see the link to immigration however

Stuffingballs Tue 11-Dec-12 18:28:44

Are you ok about white immigrants coming over here then?

ErikNorseman Tue 11-Dec-12 18:29:14

I don't think that statistic is right - or it has been massaged. Only around 10-15% of uk pop are non white. So can over 50% of Londoners really be non white? I don't think it adds up. IIRC 35% of BME pop live in London, making around 3.5-5% of the entire population. I suppose it's possible that the pop of London is under 10% of the uk pop? In any case the numbers of BME people in the uk are really small, just concentrated in London, as you might expect. Shocking hmm

Personally, I think that ethnic, racial and cultural (yes they are all different things) diversity is fantastic for uk society and I welcome more of it. (Hence why I married and immigrant and spawned a BME baby I suppose...)

FivesGoldNorks Tue 11-Dec-12 18:29:18

Oh x post

FivesGoldNorks Tue 11-Dec-12 18:29:50

Erik there are areas of London where the figure is 90% non white

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 18:30:10

The ethnicity of immigrants is not relevant but 3.8 million over the last ten years is very high

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Tue 11-Dec-12 18:30:32

But it doesn't say that. It says 45% are white british. It does not indicate what the other 55% are. They could be non white british. or white immigrants. or non white immigrants.

Where do you get the idea that the other 55% are not white. It doesn't say that.

slambang Tue 11-Dec-12 18:30:42

My white-looking London-born British dcs are the children of a non white-looking non-British immigrant and have dual nationality with a non white, Muslim country. They could tick the white british box. They could tick the non white, asian. mixed or other box. All would be true.

The thing is if you walked past them in the street you wouldn't know. And why would you care?

maillotjaune Tue 11-Dec-12 18:31:44

I haven't read the detail yet, but the main article linked by the OP says fewer than half (45%) of people living in London are White British which is not what the thread title says.

OP presumably you have read it as you're shocked - what about White - Other? Like some of my family who 2/3 generations after coming over from Ireland would identify themselves as Irish not British, but are definitely White and wouldn't appear to be immigrants.

Does that bother you or is it just colour?

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:31:57

Santa - I phrased that badly. I didn't mean that I thought caucasions were an ethnic minority, just that I didn't think we were anywhere near a situation where they weren't the clear majority, ie, bigger than all other ethnic groups put together.

TheCortanaThatStoleChristmas Tue 11-Dec-12 18:32:02

"half the people who live in London are white, i did not say 'not British'"

Can you immigrate to the country you were born in? Are you saying that rate of British immigrants to Britain is too high?

<makes the most before the thread goes poof>

maillotjaune Tue 11-Dec-12 18:32:30

X post with Hec - slow typing here this evening.

xkittyx Tue 11-Dec-12 18:33:24

I find the OP quite blatantly racist, to be honest. Shocked because people aren't white? Seriously?

gazzalw Tue 11-Dec-12 18:33:51

I'm not! Only 6/29 in DS's primary school class were white English and 10/30 in DD's class. At secondary school 15/30 are white English..

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 18:34:49

AIBU to be shocked that only a 1 in 7 of the people in my house are white British?

What does this mean? What should I do?

I am being swamped, swamped I tells ya.....

maillotjaune Tue 11-Dec-12 18:35:20

Do you live in London OP?

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:35:21

"Are you saying that rate of British immigrants to Britain is too high?"

Clearly the rate of British immigration to Britain is too high. I might start spreading British-hating propaganda to see if I can get some really stupid people to be angry with themselves and campaign for themselves to be sent home.

TheCortanaThatStoleChristmas Tue 11-Dec-12 18:35:30

grin MrsDeVere

StuntGirl Tue 11-Dec-12 18:35:50

Yes OP but net migration has fallen too. Less people emigrating here and more people leaving to go elsewhere.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Tue 11-Dec-12 18:36:23

and two million britons have left in ten years

plus 1.58 million foreign nationals left.

so that's, erm, how many, roughly, leaving in the same period that these people arrived?

about 3.5 million going and 3.8 million coming

so a net gain of what? 300,000?

If my maths is right

OH DEAR GOD, WE'RE GOING TO SINK. SOMEONE PASS ME A LIFEJACKET, THE UK IS SINKING BENEATH THE WAVES UNDER THE WEIGHT OF 300,000 PEOPLE...

grin

Lilithmoon Tue 11-Dec-12 18:36:29

OP I see you are not letting the small matter of the actual facts get in the way of your dodgy attitudes?

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Tue 11-Dec-12 18:36:33

ah right. thanks for clarifying kungfu. i started to doubt myself there! grin

misscomanche Tue 11-Dec-12 18:36:50

What baubles said. People move. Maybe a thousand years ago, after the Norman Conquest, someone would be asking 'aibu to be shocked that less than half of people in Hastings are Anglo-Saxons?'
I was born in London to immigrant parents. I have a British passport. I like talking about the weather, queueing, and the odd box of M&S biscuits at Christmas. I can be British without having the bloodline.

Stuffingballs Tue 11-Dec-12 18:38:41

Are you white though?

No amount of queuing and morris dancing will convince the OP otherwise.

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:38:41

I'm staring at the DSs wondering whether they can really, truly be described as white, given the faint, olivey, not-quite-English tinge that has managed to survive three generations of inter-breeding with proper English people.

How long does it take to breed out not-quite-Britishness?

Is there hope for the next generation?

[clutches head in horror]

LynetteScavo Tue 11-Dec-12 18:39:26

Well, OP, just to wind you up some more, 20% of the pupils in my DC's school are from immigrant families from Eastern Europe. They are all white, and mostly blonde.

Blu Tue 11-Dec-12 18:39:29

Actually, unless you can point me to a more detailed statistic the only reference I can find to race re London is "45% describing themselves as white British. ". Which doesn't necessarily translate as "less than half the people in London are white" as there are loads of categories of white people in addition to 'British'. afaik the cencus asked about other white origins.

But the main point is that being 'not white' is hardly a cause for shock, is it? Really? Two thirds of my household are not white, and I'm not panicking!

You might have views on immigration, but why confude this with race?

NumericalMum Tue 11-Dec-12 18:39:38

I love multi cultural London. My DC is growing up oblivious to colour which is wonderful!

LadyClariceCannockMonty Tue 11-Dec-12 18:39:45

OP, I'm not sure whether your problem is with immigration or non-white people. Maybe it's with both?

Either way, have a biscuit.

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 18:40:01

Fer fucks sake llovecoffeeandchocolate (username clearly not indicating your taste in men)...

Just spit it out. What do you really want to say love? Gwan.

FivesGoldNorks Tue 11-Dec-12 18:40:08

Mrsdv are they coming over here and eating your cheese? It must be stopped!

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:40:11

"No amount of queuing and morris dancing will convince the OP otherwise. "

[snort]

What about some cheese-rolling or cow-tipping?

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 18:41:02

I am shocked that fewer than half of London residents would describe themselves as white British considering that the rest of the country it is 86% (91% in 2001), it would be interesting to see what it was 30/40 years ago. London has changed dramatically in my dd school English only 8 out of 30 pupils has English as a first language.

I don't feel that my post was racist at all, I'm also in the 55% who would not describe themselves as white British.

sweetkitty Tue 11-Dec-12 18:42:06

I used to live in an area of London I would say was 90% non white. Even in the four years I lived there there was a massive influx of people mostly from African countries such as Nigeria. It caused a lot of problems particularly in the NHS. There just weren't the resources in the area to cope with demand. At the GPs you had to queue from 7.30am to get an appointment even then you were lucky. The midwives and health visitors were stretched to breaking point as well. I believe the local schools were not coping well either and didn't have th extra support in place for a lot of children whose first language wasn't English.

I think a mass influx like this leads to resentment amongst the already settled population and many locals were moving from the area.

I do think we as a country need immigration but it needs to be controlled, if our
Public services are at breaking point and housing is in so short supply it seems mad to be encouraging more people to move here.

TandB Tue 11-Dec-12 18:42:28

And the prize for the most spectacular drip-feed in MN history goes to.....

I'm not surprised about the White British statistic for London. I live in a borough where around half of the population (inc DH) were born outside the UK. DH is North African and I never quite know what box we should tick for him.

We have thought twice about moving outside of London because in London being a mixed culture family is usual and easy I genuinely don't know about elsewhere.

LynetteScavo Tue 11-Dec-12 18:45:57

And although everyone in this house fills out "White British" on those form, I recently discovered (how I only recently discovered this I don't know - I always laughed at DH when he was unsure and told him of course he was White British) that not all of us are in fact White British. Or only white British. Four of us have dual nationality. confused

But we're all white (just) so that will statistically reassure the OP.

StuntGirl Tue 11-Dec-12 18:46:25

But why are you shocked OP, have you never visited London?

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 18:46:32

I went to school in Harringey in the 1970s.
I was one of 3 white children in my class. One of those was Irish.

Didn't do me any harm.

goralka Tue 11-Dec-12 18:48:25

Hornsey Girls Mrs DeVere?

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 11-Dec-12 18:48:33

But kitty...she isn't being racist. She has expressed surprise at a statistic not pronounced white people to be the best kind. Look up the definition of racist.

Bit telling that OP hasn't been back though. hmm

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 18:48:45

five the blighters are eating my cheese, drinking my milk and one of the little bleeders nicked my frazzles the other day.

It has to be stopped and soon!

CockyPants Tue 11-Dec-12 18:49:31

OP is obvs unaware that we all came from Africa.
Which makes us all immigrants.

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 18:49:35

Norf Haringey Mixed Infants goralka grin

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 18:50:10

I am a second gen immigrant - but white - so that's okay I guess hmm

it says 'describe themselves as white British' - somoe Brits are not white - OMGEE shock horror somebody tell the Daily Fail

seriously who gives a tiny rats wank

Purple2012 Tue 11-Dec-12 18:50:17

Just seen another article on this. It says more than 1 in 10 people in Britain are not British born. So that is probably just over one in 10, so just over 10% of people in Britain are non british born. It didn't say about white/black/Asian etc British born.

So hardly being over run are we?

Yes I think we are too soft in some cases on immigration. But I don't think being White makes you British, being black doesn't make you not British.

The way I see it, we are very lucky to live in a country so great that people from all over the works want to live here. And I don't blame people who may have horrific lives elsewhere coming here to try and make a nice life for them and their families.

OP I don't know if you meant your post to come across the way it has.

Purple2012 Tue 11-Dec-12 18:52:46

I meant all over the world not works.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 18:54:05

We are overpopulated. Immigration needs to halt until we can sort ourselves out.

Most of the people that go on about "vibrancy" etc don't live in normal working-class areas that feel the negative effects of mass immigration.

If we limited immigration to highly skilled people and their immediate families there wouldn't be a problem. There has never been any justification for immigration of low and semi-skilled people, other than to suppress wages and force up house prices.

OddBoots Tue 11-Dec-12 18:54:29

I wonder how long it will be before that question is a nonsense, when the majority are so mixed that unpicking a specific ethnicity is not possible.

JesusInTheCabbageVan Tue 11-Dec-12 18:54:53

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate

DO you love coffee and chocolate though, OP? Because I believe those things are both.... NOT WHITE! shock They're also not indigenous to this country. I believe that if you stop to take a moment to think about it, you might find you're a bit shocked by both coffee and chocolate.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 18:56:11

is Tyseley normal and working class enough - lived there for a long while smile

Cozy9 should all OUR immigrants from Spain, NZ, Aus and the world over come back here then?

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 18:57:14

OP needs a name change ...I love white bread and gravy ...and white people maybe

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 18:57:56

My post was clearly not judging people on race just that it was surprising that less than half of people in London would describe themselves as white British. As i said before I am not white British but mixed race with my dm from Jamaica.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 18:58:15

"Cozy9 should all OUR immigrants from Spain, NZ, Aus and the world over come back here then? "
If the countries live in want to kick them out, sure. But most British ex-pats contribute to their adopted countries. If they didn't. they wouldn't be there.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 18:58:41

cozy9 we have a MINIMUM wage in the uk - so that's rubbish - also how do semi skilled people force up house prices if they are one low wages?

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 18:59:40

most Immigrants contribute - many don't have recourse to public funds - many work and pay tax - facts - they do get in the way of bigotry

JamieandtheMagiTorch Tue 11-Dec-12 19:01:08

You might want to re-think your thread title if you don't want this to appear to be about race.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 19:01:37

Have you been to London OP?

Abra1d Tue 11-Dec-12 19:02:39

I have every reason to be grateful to immigrants (two doctors from India, in particular) but there is a downside: the lovely field across the road is being dug up to build new houses. Immigration has put great pressure on housing stock. So, in this village we are losing an ancient field, and view. We can never get them back again. That's a little bit of rural England your children and mine will never enjoy again.

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 19:02:45

Yes i do like coffee and chocolate and my dm brings back coffee from Jamaica (blue mountain, highly recommended) when she visits so clearly I know the raw ingredients are not grown in this country.

Purple
I think the effect is more noticeable in London because there is a higher proportion of non-UK born people. Some boroughs its over 50%. There are a lot French voters in the UK and there is a French MP for Northern Europe. Many of the French expats are in London.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17893296.

I love living in London but I can understand why people are surprised at just how diverse it is.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 19:07:23

but new housing i lovely rural locations unlikely to be purchased by poor immigrants - more like to be richer Brits I would have thought?

lack of social housing and affordable homes are an issue - but not due to immigration - more due to lack of investment and the selling off of council stock and bargain prices

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 19:08:08

cozy you have NO idea if that statement is true or not.
Its just something trotted out by people who like to say they are speaking on behalf of 'ordinary, decent working class folk'

I live in a vibrant mixed area and I am as working class as they come. Proper cor blimey credentials, the lot.

You are right about me not knowing about the negative affects of mass immigration though.

Kids all got in the schools and nurseries I wanted ,I got to have my babies where I wanted, I have a job and I have yet to be harassed by any swarthy knaves on my way to market.

dinkybinky Tue 11-Dec-12 19:09:59

I have noticed a massive increase in the population since 2001. We cant cope with all the people here and something needs to be done to stop the people flooding in. There are thousands of Filipinos, Polish etc here illegally on top of the people here legally.

Blu Tue 11-Dec-12 19:11:30

OP, I think you have expressed youself very badly in you title and OP, and have a slippery grasp on stats (for e.g no, the rest of the country is not 86% white british, that is the overall figure for the whole country), but it sounds as if it is a matter of not meaning things the way you make them sound.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 19:14:40

Sure it's been said but

So what?
Who cares?
Why are you shocked?

You do know not all British people are white and not all white people are British don't you?

I wasn't born here but I am white. Am I ok to stay?

Iggly Tue 11-Dec-12 19:15:47

What are you on about Cozy?!

JesusInTheCabbageVan Tue 11-Dec-12 19:16:58

OP - as well as addressing my joky point about coffee and chocolate, could you address the following:

1) The fact that nowhere in the article does it say that less than half of the people in London are white.
2) Your apparent assumption that all non-white people are immigrants.
3) The fact that you find your made-up statistic 'shocking' rather than, say, 'surprising' or 'interesting' or even, heaven forbid, 'positive' or 'encouraging'.

Abra1d Tue 11-Dec-12 19:17:59

There is a ripple effect, gordysloves. One population moves into urban areas and another population moves out. As you say, generally more affluent white people moving out. But they wouldn't be moving out in such numbers (even allowing for increased divorce, more single-person households, etc) if it hadn't been for such large immigration. People have to live somewhere. Sadly, in this case, it's on a pretty, grade two agricultural field formerly providing this country with food.

Delayingtactic Tue 11-Dec-12 19:18:00

Grrrr. I'm actually one of those statistics. What exactly so surprising about that statistic? Do you know what percentage are non white British? If it was 40% (so 85% being British) would you have made that comment? I'm guessing not.

Delayingtactic Tue 11-Dec-12 19:19:12

45% of New York City are white Americans. So we are pretty on par with them.

MardyArsedMidlander Tue 11-Dec-12 19:25:39

'People have to live somewhere. Sadly, in this case, it's on a pretty, grade two agricultural field formerly providing this country with food. '

If all the empty houses in this country were refurbished, then there would be even less of a housing problem. It has always been the case that when people make some money, they want to move out of the city. However, I believe that the rise in single person households make more of an impact than immigration.
And of course, rich people buying up all the cute little labourer's cottages as second homes so the actual villagers can only afford to buy two bed new builds on new estates.

Iwillorderthefood Tue 11-Dec-12 19:27:02

So how many people are leaving? Immigration enables us to function as a country, without immigrants Britain would be a whole lot worse off.

I hope the attitude towards various ethnic groups and in particular mixed marriages and mixed heritage children continues to be more positive. I am in such a marriage and have such children, and one of our main stumbling blocks to moving out of London is a concern over racism. DH background is however one of ethnic persecution and therefore we are always sensitive to this.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 19:30:17

Would be curious to know the percentage of white English speakers in say Benidorm OP.

Abra1d Tue 11-Dec-12 19:30:52

I entirely agree about the weekend home owners who visit perhaps one weekend in 20. They are a blight in our village and if we could force them to rent or sell their houses instead of leaving them empty, we wouldn't need all these new houses. Sometimes I walk through our village at night and see house after house empty, no car, curtains drawn.

But of course building these houses will make developers money. So that's OK. hmm

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 19:36:32

so it's snotty Brits refusing to integrate causing the housing issues !

and yes MONEY that is also a big factor ...Immigration I am afraid is a big white elephant way down the imagined list of reasons green belt land is being built on

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 19:36:54

Love advanced search.

OPs full of it IMO

Nancy66 Tue 11-Dec-12 19:37:09

Makes sense and, I'd say, pretty representative of the way it is in most capital/major cities of developed countries.

Strange to think two ends of a small country can be so different though.

I was in Harrogate recently. For ages I couldn't put my finger on what felt weird about it. Then I realised. Everyone was white. I think it's the whitest place in the UK actually.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 19:37:45

swarthy knaves on my way to market.

Mrsdevere me either sad

dinkybinky How are Polish in the UK illegally? confused

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 19:39:33

I love how someone can start a deliberately racist Op then wait pages to forget to mention that actually they are neither white nor British.

If you think immigration is a problem what do you think should be done aboutt it OP?

BoffinMum Tue 11-Dec-12 19:40:48

biscuit

God, who even cares?

Nancy66 Tue 11-Dec-12 19:42:59

I don't think the OP was being racist.

Alameda Tue 11-Dec-12 19:44:06

I LOVE that blue mountain coffee, it has something magical in it.

Only 4.7% of people in my post code were not born in the UK, which is not how the racists perceive things. Apparently we are overrun by that 4.7% of Polish nursery workers and taxi drivers etc

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 19:48:35

no Nancy66 - the OP getting a twist over the rising number of black people ...not at all racist! hmm

Nancy66 Tue 11-Dec-12 19:50:42

yes, that would be racist but she didn't say that.

StarOfLightMcKings3 Tue 11-Dec-12 19:52:49

So go and live somewhere less crowded then OP!

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 19:54:17

No you wouldn't nancy

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 19:54:34

no she's in a twist that 'over 50%' are not white - which is totally different ...not at all

AfterEightMintyy Tue 11-Dec-12 19:54:43

Haven't read whole thread. Does op actually live in London?

giveitago Tue 11-Dec-12 19:55:52

Ilove - your post says that less than half are white british. I guess that's right but the majority of people in london are white at the same time due to european immigration.

The world has opened up and many people can settle in different countries. That's what's happened and the figures reflect this.

Nancy66 Tue 11-Dec-12 19:58:38

she's not 'in a twist' about anything.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 20:02:59

okay then if we are going to be petty 'shocked and concerned' about the number of none white people ...but still not racist ...if you say so grin

Nancy66 Tue 11-Dec-12 20:07:14

It's a really interesting report. A shame it can't be discussed in a reasoned and intelligent manner. Predictable though.

bamboostalks Tue 11-Dec-12 20:07:34

I was surprised that was the case too. It does make one feel as if London is starting to become an entity separate from the rest of the UK. Its own fifedom really. The population there is no longer reflected around the country and I think that will have long term consequences.
I don't think op is racist, why does everyone have to jump on someone immediately when they express an ambiguous thought?

Zorayda Tue 11-Dec-12 20:11:03

This was being discussed in my office today, and I had to point out that I'm not "British-born" although I class myself as White British as I grew up in Hong Kong when it was a British colony, to British parents (who were born in Britain). However, I didn't emigrate until I was 19, sometime after then handover, so you could class me as an arrival from China. And further to that, my husband is "British-born" and our Polish surname (which causes raised-eyebrows from people who assume we're new arrivals) is a result of his grandfather moving to Britain after the war, when he was released from Auschwitz.

So, one immigrant, one non-British surname, and to meet us you'd assume we grew up locally. Stats are quite clunky.

I'm not sure if the OP was perhaps referring to her perceptions of London, when travelling in, which would include a high number of tourists and commuters who wouldn't be reflected in the survey. Working in London and living in London don't always correlate.

MrsKwaziipanFruits Tue 11-Dec-12 20:13:26

I heard the "minority of Londoners are white british" line on the radio on my way home, and it made me cross then as well as now on here. It doesn't automatically mean that the majority living in London are 'not white' - although the Daily Mail must be rubbing its thighs at the stories it will be able to produce off the back of this.

FWIW, I was born and grew up in London, however I always tick the 'White Irish' box because that is the ethnic background and culture that I grew up in and consider myself to be. There are many people like me who do the same. These things are not always as clear as they're simplisticly painted.

difficultpickle Tue 11-Dec-12 20:13:37

I was in Turkey this week. There the prime minister is actively encouraging the Turkish population to have at least 3 children in order to ensure that the population is not diluted by the growing Kurdish community. I was asked why the same wasn't being done in the UK to counter the influx of immigrants. I pointed out that this was a rather racist viewpoint. I was completely alone with my view of thinking it was racist.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 20:14:18

it's a shame people can't start from a position of listening and admitting they may be wrong I agree - sadly people who want to approach it in a none knee jerk pro bnp manner are dismissed by those who refuse to see disliking no white being here (even British ones) might be a bit racist sad

maillotjaune Tue 11-Dec-12 20:16:42

A reasoned discussion of this report would indeed be nice.

Unfortunately if you write an OP with the words shocked, immigration is too high and overcrowded island you are unlikely to be looking for get one.

MrsKwaziipanFruits Tue 11-Dec-12 20:21:13

As for the country being overcrowded, I don't think that is necessarily true either. People are concentrated in certain areas - that's true - and not enough has been done to keep up with the demand for housing, jobs and infrastructure. But we're not really bursting at the seams as far as I can see.

Also, people who decry the amount of people coming into the UK to work and/or settle, do you then think that people from the UK should be stopped moving to other countries to do the same? No more life in the sun or moving to pursue the Australian dream?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 20:23:12

Especially if you are also pretending to be an immigrant.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 20:26:06

and what maillotjaune said

peaceandlovebunny Tue 11-Dec-12 20:29:06

we are a strange nation. do you know of any other countries where it would be unacceptable to say 'i'm uncomfortable that the demographic of our capital city has changed'?

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 11-Dec-12 20:29:06

I think people forget how different London is to the rest of the UK,always has been. By population alone it could be it's own country (almost 3 times the population of Wales).

I love London because it is so diverse. I live in Cardiff which is fairly diverse (given it's size). I live in what is historically the most diverse area of the city. But London makes Cardiff seem like a backwater town waiting for the wheel to be invented. Feeling that is a surprise. Never fails to be. But it's not a negative surprise. I don't walk around in shock and horror that the residents of London aren't all white speaking RP or cockney.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 20:30:58

I'd be happy if we had an immigration system similar to that of Australia.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 20:33:51

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta wink

giveitago Tue 11-Dec-12 20:34:00

I think London is way overcrowded.

But London isn't really a UK city, it's an international one (as opposed to provincial like other european capitals) and you can't judge it against the rest of the country. You can't compare it to the rest of the UK for this reason. The statistics only really work for london and don't tell much of story for the UK as a whole.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 20:34:08

"cozy9 we have a MINIMUM wage in the uk - so that's rubbish"
How does a minimum wage prevent wage suppression?

"lso how do semi skilled people force up house prices if they are one low wages?"
Supply and demand, basic economics. Increase the demand and prices go up.

CoteDAzur Tue 11-Dec-12 20:34:30

bisjo - When I was growing up in Turkey, a Kurdish guy was our building's janitor. He had 8 children, most of them with less than a year of age difference. They lived in a single room, in poverty. My mum once asked why they kept having babies, and the answer was "Because we need soldiers".

There are long-running issues there that are not as easy to label as "racism", in other words.

The current PM is a religious fundamentalist and a bit of a fascist nutcase, but other than stuff he says, if Turkey was such a racist place, they wouldn't open the borders to let hundreds of thousands of Kurds in back when Saddam was gassing them, and again recently due to mass exodus from Syria.

jeanvaljean Tue 11-Dec-12 20:37:27

I'm not shocked because I live here and have seen the massive changes. When I was at primary school in East London there were about 6 ethnic minority kids out of 36. Now the same school is entirely ethnic "minority". That's in 20 years.

Now I live in North London and my area is quite "white" however when you walk around it's all Eastern Europeans and the local school is 90% English as a foreign language (mostly Polish).

Alisvolatpropiis - People think London has always been like this but it hasn't. And because the change has been so massive and so rapid it's clear that the same will be coming for everyone else outside of London, if it hasn't already. I honestly think that give it 10-20 years and "white British" will be a minority in the whole of the country.

goralka Tue 11-Dec-12 20:40:55

It does make one feel as if London is starting to become an entity separate from the rest of the UK. Its own fifedom really
I think that's always been the case. Personally I wish I was back in London away from nosy gossips and casual racism - our little family is all 'white other' btw and consider ourselves Londoners.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 20:41:23

I don't see why 'white British' being a minority is a problem though - black British, British Asian, mixed race are all perfectly reasonable alternatives to 'white'

suburbophobe Tue 11-Dec-12 20:42:51

The biggest demographic growth is bi-cultural children in UK.

Bring it on, I say!

It's the future, might as well get used to it....

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 20:44:30

I really worry for the future of this country. It seems we are being turned into an "international trading hub", and a lot of our indigenous people are surplus to requirement. British people are too servile and trusting IMO, we should be more prepared to speak up and fight back.

SaltedCaramels Tue 11-Dec-12 20:46:35

Reading that article made my day - as mixed white Asian Londoner, am surprisingly happy to be in the 'majority' for the first time in my life!

bamboostalks Tue 11-Dec-12 20:46:38

I love London and like the diversity but I do think the city is moving further and further away from the rest of the country and that cannot be a good thing. It should be a flagship and represent the nature of the the UK. It clearly doesn't. It feels like the whole of the country is bearing in on the south east in general and all our other cultural identity is getting lost whilst London's is just too diverse to be distinctive.

shock

You say 'international trading hub' like it's a terrible thing confused

giveitago Tue 11-Dec-12 20:49:55

London has been an international city for a while and for this reason it's not very british. I'm a mixed white asian person and I don't feel like I'm in a minority or a majority - never have. I think what's changed is the european immigration and it's increased massively.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 20:51:15

jeanvaljean Are you for real?

I don't know which London you were in 20 years ago but it doesn't fit the one I know and have lived in for nearly 40 years.

DontmindifIdo Tue 11-Dec-12 20:57:44

The rate of immigration is concerning due to limited space, according to the census 3.8 million people arrived here in the last ten years but 1.2 million between 1991 and 2000. - OP, you are making a large assumption here, that is that everyone who emigrates to the UK stays here. Of the people who are still here who were born overseas only 1.2 million arrived between 1991 2000 and 3.8million in the last ten years. This doesn't show if more than 1.2 million people moved to the UK between 1991 - 2000 and subsequently have left.

Not all immigrates are here to settle for a long term, for one example, the City is full of Americans, Canadians, Germans etc getting a couple of years of "London banking" experience on their CVs. Another example is the number of Aussies working in bars in London, I refuse to accept the majority will stay.

I personally would expect of those immigrates currently in the UK, the majority would have only been here for a couple of years, but then I know so many people who've worked abroad for 2-3 years (including DH), few people move for good.

DontmindifIdo Tue 11-Dec-12 21:01:26

Oh ignore me, I missed that HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly had got the stats to better make my point on page 3...

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:02:08

I really worry for the future of this country. It seems we are being turned into an "international trading hub", and a lot of our indigenous people are surplus to requirement. British people are too servile and trusting IMO, we should be more prepared to speak up and fight back.

wow. rivers of blood eh?

LaCiccolina Tue 11-Dec-12 21:04:32

Where are u from? Anyone in London could've told u this. Why shocking? I kinda like it. U been here recently? London is wonderful, always was and always will be whatever the narrow minded DM types think.

London is for every body. I'm proud of her.

HuwEdwards Tue 11-Dec-12 21:06:29

You see, I think we are a very overcrowded little island, however, this is a vast planet and no bit of it is anyone's to own. What gives any of us the right (as long as it's within the remit of law) to deny anyone?

I think it can only be a good thing that you could have a tube carriage full of people of all or any one colour yet have a host of languages, beliefs and cultures.

I recall in the 60s and 70s when it was completely normal amongst adults to talk about people of a different colour in a racist way (although often the perpetrators wouldn't class themselves as racist).

Of course it still happens. but it's much less common, simply because it's more commonplace to have people of different colour in our society.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:08:04

What is so "wonderful" about London? I'm sure it's a nice place to live if you have lots of money, but for those of us that don't, it's not. "Wonderful" places don't tend to have riots like London did last year.

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 11-Dec-12 21:08:18

jean I'm not denying there has been a massive influx of immigrants in recent years but London has always been where immigrants headed historically,the French Hugenots,Jews all went to London. It has always been a hub of industry,creativity etc apart from the other UK cities.

I don't think there's anything wrong expressing surprise,but we should all bear in mind that white people are and always have been a world minority. Always have been,always will be.

The biggest growth in terms ethnic groups is I think mixed race people. I watched a documentary on mixed race people on ch4 last year,it was amazing. It was just to do with how the very different genes affect physical health etc but it was truly amazing. Heterozygous genes I think was the term.

I also watched a documentary on elderly mixed races couples and what they went through is terrible. It can only be a good thing that Britain becoming more diverse and therefore that the skin colour of who you love is becoming less and less of an issue.

jeanvaljean Tue 11-Dec-12 21:09:34

Amber - which part of London are you from? I find it hard to believe you haven't seen the changes unless you're in an outlying or rarefied area. I stated the facts - my primary school is now entirely Indian/Pakistani. The area I now live in has 90% English as a foreign language at the local schools.

To those celebrating this level of immigration, I wonder if you would also advocate the same happening in Japan or India or Ghana. Would you be pleased about Japanese people comprising only 45% of the population in Tokyo? Or Delhi having a massive immigrant English population? If not, why not?

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 21:10:28

I havr only skim-read, so apologies if I repeat...but why are you 'shocked'? London is a huge, global city - a centre for immigration for reasons of business and commerce, as well as the 'immigration' people associate with refugees and asylum seekers.

There are many, many people here who a escaping war and genocide. There are also economic immgrants from the EU....and Aussies/Kiwis/South Africans bumming aroud doing bar work for a few years...and Indian doctors and Filipino nurses filling skills gaps...and Russian oligarchs / Saudi princes etc using London as a playground....oh, and many many hundreds of thousands of black British, Aasian-british, mixd race etc people who are BRITISH, just not white...etc etc

Is it just the non-white, visible and possibly poor 'non white Brits' you are worried about?

Whatever your issues....I dont understand why you are shocked, unless perhaps you are not from London or havent been here lately!

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 21:12:32

Perhaps the time will come for Delhi or Rio or some of the emerging world cities...but in a city like London, which has been a centre of commerce and economic propserity for centuries, it cant be a shock, surely? Baffling...

MrsDeVere Tue 11-Dec-12 21:18:52

cozy speak for yourself and stop making sweeping statements.

London is wonderful and I am not well off.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:19:30

Is it me or has it suddenly got a bit ukippy in here?

ouryve Tue 11-Dec-12 21:20:42

Have some biscuitbiscuit with your coffee and chocolate.

If you don't like it, emigrate.

Oh, wait.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:23:51

How is it "wonderful"?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:25:16

Learning new languages, learning about new cultures, new food, christ what would the British do with out curry

How isn't it wonderful ?confused

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 11-Dec-12 21:25:36

ouryve <snorts> surprised there have been no "Britain isn't like it was,I'm off to Cananda" style posts yet entirely lacking in irony!

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:26:15

you can not double biscuit ourve it always looks likes boobs to me..

dinkybinky Tue 11-Dec-12 21:26:54

Why is everyone so PC on here. I have read comments on this topic in the papers and news sites and most people are fed up with the amount of people flooding the UK.

Also whenever I've watched crimewatch most of the "most wanted" are from other countries.

thirdfromleft Tue 11-Dec-12 21:27:11

Here's the thing. I'm dark-skinned and my family is from a Middle Eastern, Muslim country - top of the shit list for a European country. However I actually come from a Christian minority in that country, and I've been exclusively educated in the West. So my religion, accent and beliefs are completely unacceptable "back home". There isn't anywhere people are willing to accept me as their own. Some people seem surprised at the conservative attitudes on parts of this thread but trust me, they're very common, probably as common in Europe as they are in Africa/Asia in my experience.

Fortunately most people won't read this far down a thread to discover my background, so hopefully I won't need a name change smile

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:27:38

They are my personal favourite alis

Spain it's lovely, full English fry up everyone speaks English.... not like England... .

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:28:28

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:28:51

I do not think Mumsnet is at all representitive of the majority of mums in Britain. It is overwhelmingly middle-class and PC, probably by design so as to maximise ad revenue.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:31:10

I do not think Mumsnet is at all representitive of the majority of mums in Britain. It is overwhelmingly middle-class and PC, probably by design so as to maximise ad revenue.

I am sure The Sun does alright for ad revenue hmm.Maybe MNHQ wanted to set up a safe heaven for intelligent thought amongst the rabid Daily Mail lot?

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 21:31:52

Cozy I am far from middle classed.

jean I am from SE London and have family from and living in the East end of London.

What im surprised about in your first post was your claim that it wasn't like that 20 years ago?

Alisvolatpropiis Tue 11-Dec-12 21:32:04

I read this with interest as DP and I are considering moving to Denmark at the moment. If I do go,I will be one of "those" immigrants who might "take" a Danish persons job. But I'm white so presumably the people getting bent out of shape about the changing demographic (read:colour) of the London population would think it outrageous if I wasn't welcomed with open arms by Danish people!

dinkybinky Tue 11-Dec-12 21:33:38

Fuck off you daft cunt

Mmmm classy

lovelyladuree Tue 11-Dec-12 21:34:22

Let's see if any of you loony liberals would be happy being the only white English family living in a road in Harlesden, North London, as mine were. Thankfully, we moved to north Norfolk. Lovely.

JoanByers Tue 11-Dec-12 21:34:36

I saw some photos of the East End of London in 1953 at the coronation, a sea of 'White British' people waving flags.

In the same areas now you could walk down the street and not find a single white person.

Obviously this is not a skin colour issue but all the things that change along with that. I believe the old East End community was destroyed by the Labour Party, the quote attributed to Herbert Morrison was that they would 'build the Tories out of London', by destroying the old Victorian housing and building council estates, which are now in very many cases ridden by crime and worklessness (e.g., in Islington more than half of all children grow up in households where nobody work - and there's no shortage of jobs).

manicinsomniac Tue 11-Dec-12 21:34:38

I'm actually quite surprised the statistics are that high too.

My children are mixed race and they are the ONLY non white people in our entire village. We have a few white South Africans and am American family but other than that I thinke verybody is white British. There are a few black, Asian and mixed race children in the school (I'm only talking around 25 children out of 450) but those are all either international boarders or children from our nearest city.

And I live less than an hour from London.

I know London is very multi cultural but I'm still surprised at the extent.

I don't think it's a good thing or a bad thing though. It just is.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:35:42

There's nothing intelligent about just repeating everything Labour/the Guardian/BBC say and taking it as gospel. No-one has been able to give a proper answer as to why the current level of immigration is a good thing other than spouting off about "diversity". A bit more joined up thinking is in need here, such as thinking about how we can have an NHS and a welfare state while at the same time advocating millions of unskilled and semi-skilled migrants having the right to live here.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:37:27

not as classy as the most wanted list is full of foreigners

Stuffingballs Tue 11-Dec-12 21:38:37

'Fuck off you daft cunt'

Is probably my favourite MN post ever grin

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:38:46

Thankfully, we moved to north Norfolk.

right lovely, and do you have pity for the only black family there? Or have you not got one yet?

ouryve Tue 11-Dec-12 21:38:47

Doingit - how do you know I wasn't flashing my pasty white boobs at her? apart from the fact that they're not that perky

I could be slightly concerned about the possibility of a mass influx of people like the OP into the Northeast and Cumbria, where all but 2% of us are White British. What's keeping us safe, I suspect, is the predominance of ginger people and Northerners.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:40:02

biscuit biscuit

[chest bump at ourve]

thirdfromleft Tue 11-Dec-12 21:40:03

Cozy, would you change your mind if you knew that virtually every study on the fiscal impact of immigration on the UK shows it is positive, i.e. immigrants substantially pay more tax and create more business and jobs than they take out in benefits?

JassyRadlett Tue 11-Dec-12 21:41:15

Cozy, I'm not sure you actually know much about the Australian system and how it compares to the British one. Would have been much easier for my husband (then partner) to emigrate to Australia than it was for me to stay here (even though I was already resident on a work visa - I'm a higher rate taxpayer, so am I ok to stay as I'm not depressing wages and there wasn't a qualified British person for my job?)

I do chuckle at those who deride different opinions as 'people being so PC!' rather than just allowing, maybe, for the fact that people might have looked at the evidence and their own life experiences and come to a different conclusion. A challenge to the Daily Mail orthodoxy just must be PC, right?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:41:53

grin stuffing

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:42:10

"Cozy, would you change your mind if you knew that virtually every study on the fiscal impact of immigration on the UK shows it is positive, i.e. immigrants substantially pay more tax and create more business and jobs than they take out in benefits? "
No, because that is utter bollocks! Seriously, do you really believe that?

In fact I seem to remember reading fairly recently that the opposite was true, and there was no financial benefit to immigration.

Cozy - can you clarify what you meant by 'indigenous' in one of your earlier posts?

A quick check on the legal definition of the term gives it as:
"The convention applies to members of a tribal population whose social and economic conditions are at a less advanced stage than other sections of the nation state and have their own customs and traditions. These tribal populations are people who are regarded as indigenous as they are the descendants of the original inhabitants of the region...at the time of conquest, or colonization..." and who live more in common with their historical traditions and tribal institutions, than with the institutions of the nation state to which they belong. (my emphasis)

Going on your posts I'm not sure that's the sense in which you're using it?

Wallison Tue 11-Dec-12 21:43:20

"Fuck off you daft cunt" is brilliant.

^ why the current level of immigration is a good thing

What is the current level of immigration? Nobody seems to know. They seem even less able to know what the current level of net migration (ie immigration minus emigration) is. Until there are any actual figures, it's not really worth talking about. If it's worth talking about at all, that is.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:44:43

"I do chuckle at those who deride different opinions as 'people being so PC!' rather than just allowing, maybe, for the fact that people might have looked at the evidence and their own life experiences and come to a different conclusion. A challenge to the Daily Mail orthodoxy just must be PC, right? "
Why would people be opposed to immigration if their lives were the better for it? Or is what you are talking about people taking more notice of "evidence" than what they can see with their own eyes? Like it or not, the Daily Mail represents genuine public opinion far more than the Guardian etc do.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 21:46:23

it's PC gorn mad

if it's PC not to behave like an ignorant twat then count me in grin

Hobbitation Tue 11-Dec-12 21:47:05

I'm for controlling immigration, but some of the posts about aren't about that, it's about controlling colour.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 21:47:47

tha Daily mail also supported Hitler ...just saying smile

jeanvaljean Tue 11-Dec-12 21:48:02

Amber - it wasn't like it is now 20 years ago, no way. As I said in primary school it was about 15% ethnic minority now the entire school is Indian/Pakistani (this is Ilford). And obviously Eastern Europeans were exotic (!) at the time. Post-2005 the change was absolutely lightening fast. This is why I think people are in for a rude awakening outside London. It's all very well celebrating diversity but when you're sending your kid to a school with 90% English as 2nd language perhaps things won't seem so jolly.

I went to Manchester recently and could not believe how many English people there were in the city centre, actually speaking English! Shop workers / cafe staff who were English! It felt very strange. And I thought "Gosh, these people have no idea how quickly they will lose this".

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 21:48:03

I've never had a spreadsheet before

But with this thread, it just fills itself in

Marvellous

drcrab Tue 11-Dec-12 21:48:08

Why is there this assumption that 'immigrants' are of a non-white colour and are somehow illegally here, up to no good, unemployed or not working, and scumming off the nhs etc?

In my household there are 3 non whites. The two mixed race children are British passport holders as is their white British father. Me, the immigrant pays a lot of taxes and have been supporting this household financially since my White British husband got made redundant.

He never claimed job seekers because he decided to set up his own business.

I haven't read the article but I wonder whether the stat about number of non British born people could actually be a stat based on the fact that there are so many British people who've lived overseas, had children overseas and have now returned. So they would be classed as foreign born but to British parents who happened to be overseas then!

Changeforthrday Tue 11-Dec-12 21:48:33

Does it really matter? My first thought was 'white AND british' so that cuts out big chunks of the community for starters. There are plenty of chinese, african, asian... British folk around, and white Irish, American, German, French (good god, try walking around South Ken - it's like little Paris there)...

I worked in the City and the vast majority of staff wouldn't fit into the 'white and british' category. OK so maybe City Folk aren't exactly 'the right sort' of people we want around! I dont think there are 'millions of foreign unskilled workers' over here and I think the NHS would fall over without staff from overseas.

When did the royal family change its name to Wimdsor again?

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:48:47

There's nothing ignorant about questioning what you are being told. I'm STILL waiting for someone to explain how mass immigration has benefited the normal working-class people of this country. Something tangible please, not ethereal bullshit about "diversity" and foreign food etc. We have had foreign foods in this country for centuries, without the kind of immigration we've had in the last decade.

thirdfromleft Tue 11-Dec-12 21:50:09

OK, financial impact of immigration to the UK:

University of Oxford says positive: http://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/fiscal-impact-immigration-uk

House of Lords says positive: http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2007/10/16/Economic.pdf

Institute of Public Policy Research says positive: http://www.ippr.org/publication/55/1352/paying-their-way-the-fiscal-contribution-of-immigrants-in-the-uk

Do you need more?

The only negative study I'm aware of is the one put out by MigrationWatch which uses highly dubious assertions to challenge all the other research.

JoanByers Tue 11-Dec-12 21:50:40

That's not really the whole story is it, thirdfromleft.

Fiscal studies are one thing, but there are other issues, such as employment, pressures on housing, schooling, and so on.

People in sectors facing competition from immigration (pretty much all low-paid jobs, plus IT, and others) will tell you that immigration depresses wages and reduces job opportunities.

Often immigrants doing low-paid work are objectively better at the job than native workers, because the immigrants may be more motivated, better qualified, more highly skilled, yet still happy with NMW as it would be a lot of money where they came from. Obviously that is good news for employers, but it's not great for those on the dole.

Wallison Tue 11-Dec-12 21:51:54

When you say 'mass immigration' what exactly do you mean? How many immigrants are we talking about?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:52:10

Does anyone keep hearing "what did the Romans ever do for us" when cozy tpes?

It's been answered several times over cozy.

Changeforthrday Tue 11-Dec-12 21:53:15

What type of immigration? West Indian in the 50s and 60s when unemployment was very low and we needed cheap labour? Or finacial whiz kids in the City? Regufees from war or Ghurkas? Or Romanians and Poles? French and German?

Stuffingballs Tue 11-Dec-12 21:53:24

I think cozy9 and dinky have taken a wrong turning somewhere on the internet and are meant to be on the BNP forum.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 21:54:46

Let's see if any of you loony liberals would be happy being the only white English family living in a road in Harlesden, North London, as mine were. Thankfully, we moved to north Norfolk. Lovely

OMFG! yes, you were right to run away fast from all of those scary black folk!

Have pity on me, Im the only white person in my house !

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 21:55:16

Ha!@Romans

As soon as the phrase 'PC' is mentioned my eyes glaze over, I'm afraid.

if we get 'PC Gawn Mad' I'll have a full house...bingoooo!

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:56:00

I haven't seen a single answer. How has mass immigration improved life for normal (working-class) people in Britain? I'm not talking about those working in the city or in other professional occupations that have benefitted from immigration. How has it benefitted people working in supermarkets, or in factories, or in agriculture, or in construction? Or those trying to buy their first home, or on council waiting lists, or waiting for NHS treatment?

It's all very well for the middle-classes to go on about having 8 different ethnic restaurants on their high street, or being able to have a nanny AND a cleaner, or being able to get a cheap extension on their house. But they are the minority, they shouldn't be able to run the country for their benefit.

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 21:56:36

Oh, I see 'loony liberals' has been used already...excellent!

JassyRadlett Tue 11-Dec-12 21:56:39

Cozy, seriously? I'm not saying others aren't entitled to their views or might have arguments to back them up - however much I may disagree with those arguments.

However by dismissing those with opposing views as 'just PC' you're dismissing the idea that they too may have a solid basis for their views.

However it's clear from some commenters on this thread that there are those who object to immigration because they fear living alongside people from a variety of other ethnicities. It's not an argument I think should shape public policy and one I think has a lot if logical holes, but I recognise it as one of the arguments in this discussion. There are also those concerned about economic impacts of migration based on what they've read, and those are valid concerns even though I don't agree based on the balance of evidence. But I again I don't contemptuously dismiss the argument with a cheap and easy label.

There's a recent NIESR report on the economic and employment impacts of immigration, as well as numerous pre-recession UK and more recent internationally-focused studies on the economic net benefits, if you're truly interested.

dinkybinky Tue 11-Dec-12 21:57:22

It makes me laugh when I read threads like this.
I’ve read numerous threads on MN about people not having enough money to feed their kids, having to wait hours at A&E, no hospital beds or care for OAPs, no school places for children and no jobs for graduates or school leavers, the UK is becoming more and more crowded (mainly in the SE) it’s not sustainable, especially when we are only letting in unskilled workers. Most of the educated middle class are leaving to live elsewhere and the wealthy won’t invest in the UK because of the high Taxes so where will it leave us in 10-20 years time?

Snapespeare Tue 11-Dec-12 21:58:04

As a white Londoner, I can't say that it has ever crossed my mind that I am in a minority, or that if I did trouble ,yself with that kind of thought, that it wouldn't actually matter. I am so proud that my wonderful city represents every nation on earth, no matter what percentage that equates to and that we do occasionally do amazing things where we're not ignorant or scared, but look out for each other. We're great.

sittinginthesun Tue 11-Dec-12 21:58:34

My favourite ever comment from the boyfriend of a friend of mine -

"too many immigrants in this country now. I'm not prepared to raise my family in these conditions. I'm emigrating"....

To another country...
Where they would be immigrants..

Changeforthrday Tue 11-Dec-12 21:59:10

I am just imaginimg the good people of Norfolk "those blody Londorners move in, pushing up house prices, taking school places amd demanding a Starbucks om every bloody corner."

thirdfromleft Tue 11-Dec-12 21:59:15

JoanByers, first you need to decide on the argument. Either immigrants are lazy welfare seeking leeches, or they are job-stealing slaves. It amazes me how many people argue both of these points simultaneously.

Second, if you actually read the studies you will see that factors such as housing costs and job displacement are factored in.

Third, job creation is not a zero-sum game. If all the foreign owned business in the UK closed tomorrow, the economy would collapse. Economies grow and shrink with their openness to talent.

Fourth, I am leaving the discussion since I am tired of having the same argument with under-informed, small-minded individuals who refuse to believe that people like me could be a positive force for their economy.

TalkinPeace2 Tue 11-Dec-12 21:59:23

"45% were white British"
That is because there are shed loads of rich (white) Americans working for the Hedge Funds, Merchant Banks and Accountants.

OP You are racist. Grow Up.

(white non British)

sittinginthesun Tue 11-Dec-12 21:59:37

Oh, closely followed by the classic:

"I mean, it's not as if we went round India building churches, is it?"

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:00:26

When you say immigration has benefitted the country, what exactly does that mean? If it has only benefitted those at the top, while at the same time negatively effected normal working-class people, can that be said to be a benefit? I honestly can't see any benefit to my life or the lives of people around me. Look at all the unemployment, underemployment, housing problems etc we have at the moment. Do you honestly think immigration has no part to play in this? Can you honestly say that wages in many professions have not been suppressed by immigration? There are many jobs that once paid enough to raise a family but now pay NMW (that then has to be topped up by tax credits). Is this really a good thing?

exexpat Tue 11-Dec-12 22:00:47

I am the only British-born person in my house. I live with two recent immigrants.

They happen to be my children, and are white and have British citizenship, but on the census form I had to tick the boxes for 'not born in the UK' and 'arrived in UK within last five years'.

Raw statistics can be quite misleading.

JassyRadlett Tue 11-Dec-12 22:01:58

Oh, I see thirdfromleft has been really kind and provided some links. I'm not sure how much they go into a answering your definition of 'normal working-class people', though. Can working-class people not live in big cities?

I'll give you an example cozy, it gives xenophobic racist fools something to moan about instead of accepting that england is changing. Maybe London is ahead of the game but it's happening whether you like it or not.

I'm in East London and love it, as someone else said, bring it on, bring more immigration so soon we won't be able to hear the bnp/ukip idiots because their voices will be drowned out.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:03:58

"I mean, it's not as if we went round India building churches, is it?"
There are more Indians in Britain now than there were British people in India at the height of the Raj. And the same people that are frothing at the mouth immigrationists tend to think the Raj was "terrible colonialism". It's ridiculous!

dinkybinky Tue 11-Dec-12 22:04:11

Stuffingballs, I dont have a problem with skin colour I have a problem with too many people flooding the country

"Often immigrants doing low-paid work are objectively better at the job than native workers, because the immigrants may be more motivated, better qualified, more highly skilled, yet still happy with NMW as it would be a lot of money where they came from. Obviously that is good news for employers, but it's not great for those on the dole."

Joan - so, based on your analysis above the actual issues are not caused by migrants but by certain workers being more highly motivated and therefore better at the job than those who are less motivated. How is this an immigration and not just a general employment issue?

The 'coming over here, taking our jobs' brigade - could one of you please explain how the immigrant 'takes' a job from a non-immigrant, when employees are 'chosen' by employers?

Oblomov Tue 11-Dec-12 22:04:32

What a wired thread. I think many people agree that immigration should be tightened. Are there are predictions for when this 'white british' will actually BE the minority, as one poster referred to?

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:05:10

"I'm in East London and love it, as someone else said, bring it on, bring more immigration so soon we won't be able to hear the bnp/ukip idiots because their voices will be drowned out. "
Are none of the immigrants racist then? I think you are in for a surprise at some point!

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 22:05:24

Dinky, dinky, dinky...oh dea

The NHS is held togetjer by international doctors who fill skills shortages in the UK...and nurses who will work for shitty agency conditions because British-trained nurses wont, or are off coining it in Oz or wherever.

The lack of care for OAPs and the vulnerable in this country is not the fault of immigrants or non-white Brits (which this thread was originally about, no?). Look at your British govt - this farcical coalition that can barely be arsed to hide its contempt for the NHS or social care system we should be so proud of in the UK.

The SE and London are 'crowded' because London is a global centre of commerce. Money isnt made in Norfolk, sorry about that. And far from 'flooding out of London', more people than ever chose to STAY here in the last 12 months. The figures bucked recent trends- perhaps because people NEED the jobs that London provides.

And as for 'only letting in unskilled workers'...what planet are you on? Put down your BNP manifesto and educate yourself.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:08:09

Who said "only letting in unskilled workers"?

The NHS could cope without mass immigration, skilled overseas workers such as Doctors and nurses have been coming to Britain for decades.

Changeforthrday Tue 11-Dec-12 22:08:39

Global recession - that is why the country is in the shits. You could also argue that wages for the men have beem supressed by women doing the jobs for less. Or that young people (lower minimum wage) are stealing the jobs from older people.

I find that most people who start the 'it would all be fine if it wasn't for these foreigners' comments just have their hamds out and want something for nothing which they perceive to be their "right".

JassyRadlett Tue 11-Dec-12 22:09:35

Cozy, that NIESR report I referenced discusses in some detail the effect (or lack of effect) of immigration on unemployment levels, particularly youth unemployment.

In the meantime, I don't think it makes a great deal of sense to draw parallels between immigrants to the UK you claim are dragging down wages with the monied and immensely powerful ruling class in India during the Raj. The ethnic diversity of Parliament may not support that particular thesis.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:10:38

My favourite bit a racism ever was someone complaining "they" were

"coming over here and stealing our names " grin

Based on overseas call centre working adopting western names for work.

I loved it. grin Because, they are right...........what happens when we use up "Kevin"? Then we'll be sorry............

fackinell Tue 11-Dec-12 22:10:50

As long as everyone plays by the rules, pays their taxes and abides the law, who cares if they're green with purple spots! Personally I find any generation of immigrants to be (by majority) hardworking and honest. I saw this on the news earlier and was waiting for some DMesque response to come along! hmm

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:12:13

It says something that CIF on the Guardian actually has a more balanced discussion than this site!

Right, seeing as no-one on the 'coming over here...' side can be bothered to answer my questions, I am just going to shout say one thing:

"WHAT ABOUT THE GOATS? WILL NO-ONE THINK OF THE GOATS?"

grin

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:14:43

Out of interest Cozy, if you woke up in charge tomorrow, what would be your criteria for chucking people out or stopping people come in?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 22:15:43

Money isnt made in Norfolk, sorry about that
ha!

JoanByers Tue 11-Dec-12 22:16:12

> JoanByers, first you need to decide on the argument. Either immigrants are lazy welfare seeking leeches, or they are job-stealing slaves. It amazes me how many people argue both of these points simultaneously.

Why is it amazing?

Immigrants from Pakistan have very little in common with immigrants from Poland, one set of immigrants will bring a different set of problems, and benefits, from another set.

> Second, if you actually read the studies you will see that factors such as housing costs and job displacement are factored in.

How does a study factor in that I can no longer earn as much as I could in my chosen trade, or that I can't afford to buy a house? It's nonsensical to say to somebody 'Your concerns about immigration are irrelevant, this study shows that it is fiscally positive', when faced with individual problems caused by immigration, such as a primary school where most children don't speak English, or are an in area plagued by a foreign gang.

> Third, job creation is not a zero-sum game. If all the foreign owned business in the UK closed tomorrow, the economy would collapse. Economies grow and shrink with their openness to talent.

We get lots of people coming from Eastern Europe, by chance of EU membership, and we get lots from South Asia based on family ties.

Neither is based on talent.

Things like the non-dom scheme, which attracts the very wealthy, and the highly-skilled migrant scheme are designed to attract talent, and job creators.

We were not festering a decade ago, our economy was not collapsing, on the countrary it was doing very well, so this idea that we needed 3 million immigrants is absurd. Post-war Britain was very possibly a different story, but we already had a large degree of diversity a decade ago.

TalkinPeace2 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:16:48

I agree with the Economist magazine.
No restriction on arrivals
But no benefits for the first two years
and zero tolerance of crime - instant deportation

means we'll get the dynamic immigrants who will add to our economy
excellent

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:17:30
gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:19:04

all my dentists have been EU nationals - our whole practice is made up of mainly Portuguese and Spanish newly qualified dentists - so no massive waiting lists for free dental care - that is one benefit

Changeforthrday Tue 11-Dec-12 22:19:32

Can't we just deport whingers? That would make the rest of is happy.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:19:57

British Goats - very good - they look a bit off white though - are they London Goats hmm

JoanByers Tue 11-Dec-12 22:20:31

"Joan - so, based on your analysis above the actual issues are not caused by migrants but by certain workers being more highly motivated and therefore better at the job than those who are less motivated. How is this an immigration and not just a general employment issue?"

Well obviously there are problems with people's attitude in this country. You only need to walk down the street or ago into some classrooms to see that.

But importing people because the native workers are too lazy is really not the solution to that problem.

You end up like Saudi Arabia then.

I would suggest that we ensure our existing population can turn up for work in the morning and sell a sandwich or two, rather than importing 3 million more to do it.

manicinsomniac Tue 11-Dec-12 22:21:09

I would actually care if people were green with purple spots. I think that's weird and I would avoid them. Sorry to be racist ... wink

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 22:24:01

It is a very lazy argument just to accuse someone of being racist rather than debating immigration in a proper manner, the fact that over 3 million people came to this country in the last 10 years compared to the previous ten years when it was just oner 1 million is interesting and of concern if we are not able to support such a large rise in population.

In ten years the population of England and Wales has risen by 7% to 56 million, that is clearly a large increase. if we don't have the infrastructure to cope, of course it is a big problem, this has been shown with the pressure put on schooling and the NHS.

As I have said before I am mixed race and my mother was born abroad and have enjoyed living in country that overall provides me with a great standard of living however as someone who lives in the SE i have seen how over crowed it is.

We need a sensible debate on immigration perhaps we are not strict enough, I could not just go and live in the USA or Australia as i would need to meet much stricter criteria. When do we say we cant house/educate/care for any more people when we have 60m, 70m, 80m there must be a limit!

cat - I am going to save that link for use in suitable threads!
gordy - with your NN - I hope you're not being 'caprist' as well as 'colourist' with that comment...

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:25:46

I've got really into UK Goats now grin

They are more expensive than I would have thought!

SnowProbs Tue 11-Dec-12 22:26:03

Is it lazy to call the OP racist? Confusing 'non white British' with 'immigrant' is fucking ignorant....

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:27:03

Not at all ...just saying, you know, it's shocking if goats start to out number indigenous British sheep ... we are way cuter

Joan - thanks for responding. Out of interest though, what additional measures would you propose to resolve the issue for those with UK citizenship?

I agree it is possible to help some people change, but, the problem is, they have to want to and unfortunately those that don't want to change are far higher in number than those that do.

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:28:56

Goats have been roaming Britain for 100,000 years. They have probably got a better UK pedigree than Cozy smile

I have got to come off the goat site grin

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:29:50

gordy you reckon? grin - and office based too!

catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:32:18

grin

These sites are amazing

I'm going to get full membership of one. Imagine the newsletter grin

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:32:31
catgirl1976geesealaying Tue 11-Dec-12 22:32:58

Ahhhhhh those sheep are super cute actually

GalaxyDisaStar Tue 11-Dec-12 22:35:19

"I could not just go and live in the USA or Australia as i would need to meet much stricter criteria. "

Would you? Assuming you were a non-EU immigrant, do you actually know enough about the immigration rules to compare how hard it would be? Is it really much harder for a Brit to go to the US than for an American to come here (I'll leave Aussies on one side as I suspect the Commonwealth may complicate it a bit).

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 22:37:13

What population level do you feel this country could sustain?

When there are not enough school places or housing we ned to be very concerned, we need to stricter and have a proper debate rather than just accusing everyone of being racist!

This site does seem to be very one sided it makes the Guardian or DM look balanced.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:40:32

Ilovecoffeeandchocoalte what is the issue with British no white people? Just out of interest

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 22:40:35

We are already far beyond sustainable levels. The ideal population IMO would be about 3 million. Obviously that isn't feasible at the moment.

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 22:42:55

no issue with British non white people as I am and so are my children

JassyRadlett Tue 11-Dec-12 22:49:38

Cozy and Ilove, do you have sources or reasoning for your preferred population levels?

One of Britain's big issues, compared with continental Europe, is that even many city-dwellers are obsessed with living in a 'house' with a garden etc, and living in a flat tends to be sneered at as second-rate. Which means the flats that are but tend to be small and second-rate, perpetuating the cycle, and placing ever more pressure on land and urban infrastructure. Take a look at urban residential accommodation in most major European cities and it's a much more sensible approach.

The actual population density figures in the Census are enlightening, particularly when you take out the London effect.

musicmadness Tue 11-Dec-12 22:53:08

I quite like that I live in a fairly mixed area. I'd be fairly hypocritical if I had a problem with immigration as I have lived outside the UK before and plan to do so again in the future.

Its quite sad to see where I grew up having one of the highest levels of people with no qualifications in the country though. It doesn't really surprise me but it's sad to have it confirmed.

gordyslovesheep Tue 11-Dec-12 22:57:08

so why the 'shock' and 'concern' about less than 50% of London being WHITE ?

I am confused - if you have no issue with non white people why are you so concerned?

dunno

cozy - 3 million? - for the entire UK? Are you thinking we should go back to being nomadic farmers with no access to modern food creation methods and will therefore require hundreds of thousands of acres each in order to sustain ourselves?

(Actually, don't know why I'm asking as you haven't deigned to reply to any of my other questions on the thread either...)

Pantofino Tue 11-Dec-12 23:03:23

I am white british - but I live in Brussels where 25% of the population is non Belgian/white/whatever...I love that my dd goes to a school that reflects the community and city in which she is growing up.

Pantofino Tue 11-Dec-12 23:06:17

Where SHE is an immigrant alongside those from Romania, Poland, Congo, France, Czech Republic etc etc

TuftyFinch Tue 11-Dec-12 23:06:57

We're all people though aren't we?
If you said over 50% of people in London are elephants I'd have been shocked.
I couldn't care less. Really. Why does it matter? What does it mean?

maillotjaune Tue 11-Dec-12 23:13:38

Ha ha 3m people to live in the UK? That's everyone out since the Conquest then is it?

exexpat Tue 11-Dec-12 23:21:28

The current government's knee-jerk response to 'too many immigrants' views (in the Daily Mail etc, but also illustrated on this thread) has been to tighten up the laws on family migration.

Rules changed in July, and now if you earn less than £18.6k, you have no right to a family life with a non-EU spouse in this country. See MN thread here: AIBU to believe that breaking up this family is unjustified.

The video in the first post is heartbreaking and shows just how inhumane the rules are. I very much hope that the law will be challenged under human rights legislation, as it seems absolutely unjustifiable.

I have several family members who may be affected in future - living overseas, married (for years, or nearly two decades in one case), with children, but if they ever want to return to live in the UK, unless they immediately have a job paying well over minimum wage, they won't be able to bring their partners with them. Even if their non-British partners could easily find work (it all depends on the British partner's income), even if they have family support, even if they own property here... Crazy.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 23:22:54

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate so your mother is an immigrant? Should she leave then? Or just the ones who aren't related to you?

NishiNoUsagi Tue 11-Dec-12 23:28:41

I can't speak for illegal immigration, but my husband is a very legal immigrant and a) the paperwork was incredibly strict, and cost of the visa (over £1000) is a nightmare, add to that he can't claim benefits but works his bum off in a very hard job and pays full taxes.. therefore putting more into the country than most white British (including me at the moment).

Also, this point made me laugh a bit - "in my dd school English only 8 out of 30 pupils has English as a first language." Absolutely does not mean that they can't/don't speak English. My son fitted in to this category when he started nursery, now him and the majority of his classmates are bilingual. Lucky them!

And I'm glad I'm not the only one who struggles with the ethnicity boxes - our family has one white British, one "other" and 2 "mixed other" The poor things don't even get a definition! confused

NishiNoUsagi Tue 11-Dec-12 23:33:01

Also to pick up on what exexpat said above. My 2 dcs are luckily considered British, but if they were still considered Japanese, we would be in huge trouble as my dh only earns around £19k. If he wanted to stay in the UK with us he would have to earn about £26k (from memory, may not be exact). These rules weren't in place when we moved here, so if we were unable to class our children as british, we would have no option but to either split up the family (heartbreaking and impossible) or go back to Japan, taking away the dcs from their much loved extended family, nursery, their main language - equally heartbreaking and impossible sad

My heart goes out to all the families who are struggling with this.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 23:35:31

Anyone else suspect that person who actually was of Jamaican decent wouldn't be horrified to live in an area that was suddenly looking less white? or just causally mention it after they had already set the trolling post in to motion?

cozy and dinky are sock puppets too right?

Ilovecoffeeandchocolate Tue 11-Dec-12 23:39:32

Doingitontheroof My mother does not live in this country anymore and at no stage have I ever said anyone should leave just that we should control immigration. Next..

flow4 Tue 11-Dec-12 23:40:22

The title of this thread is factually wrong. 45% of Londoners are 'White British', not just 'white'. 59% are 'white'. And if you really want some figures to mess with your head, only 38% identified themselves as 'British' but 63% were born in Britain... confused www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_290558.pdf
I particularly hate it when people use false statistics to reinforce prejudices. hmm

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 23:46:05

Your Mum is not a black Jamaican OP.

Stop lying.

peaceandlovebunny Tue 11-Dec-12 23:46:11

I do not think Mumsnet is at all representitive of the majority of mums in Britain. It is overwhelmingly middle-class and PC, probably by design so as to maximise ad revenue.
good grief, is it? i've always found it a bit...common...blush

I think the amount by which the population of London is out of sync with most of the rest of the UK is interesting. I can understand why it has happened but it does show how non-diverse other parts of the country are too.

I wouldn't want to live somewhere where the population was so heterogenous that my children were the only Muslims in their school or where DH was the foreign chap at No. 30. Yet by not moving because of the lack of diversity elsewhere we are maintaining that status quo.

I think one of the drivers for racism / bigotry is limited experience of people from other cultures which can lead people to believe the stereotypes because they have nothing to test them against. It would probably be better if diversity wasn't so concentrated in a limited number of areas.

exexpat Wed 12-Dec-12 00:01:21

London is obviously the most international city in the UK, but I don't think the divide is so huge; other big cities are also increasingly diverse, surely - I just haven't seen as detailed a break-down of the statistics for other places.

I'm in a well-off area of a biggish city and my DCs go to private schools (day schools, not boarding), but in DD's class, I would say at least 25 per cent of the children are not 'white British' - some are British but not white, some are white but not British, some are neither white nor British - but they can all afford the school fees. And fwiw, DD is white and British but was not born here so counted as a 'recent immigrant' as far as the census was concerned.

DD's previous state primary, in one of the most expensive areas of the city, was similarly diverse. Lots of nasty lazy immigrants doctors and academics amongst the parents in both schools.

exexpat
Across the UK as a whole the difference is noticable. These charts shows how London is clearly out of line with the rest of the UK
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-ethnicity.html#tab-Ethnicity-across-the-English-regions-and-Wales

www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-ethnicity.html#tab-Geographic-distribution-for-national-identity-

If you look at the foreign born stats too
www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/2011-census/key-statistics-for-local-authorities-in-england-and-wales/rpt-international-migrants.html#tab-Regional-geography-of-non-UK-born-and-non-UK-nationals

I was surprised by this. Partly because I regard level of diversity in London as the norm. I do think it is potentially problematic that there are parts of this country where you would be unlikely to have a BME or foreign born neighbour and there may only be a couple of children in the local school who were not white british and/or born in this country.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 00:24:19

A few observations:

1. I didn't know until I read dinky's post that the recent floods were due to the number of foreigners. I thought it was rain that was flooding the country. confused

2. I am the only white person in my household. I had not realised that this was a problem, but will start feeling marginalised from tomorrow.

3. I am genuinely surprised that so many people seem to think London is the only diverse place in the UK. 86% white British is a statistic for the whole country, but many places outside of the capital are very diverse. For example, my nearest city is just over 50% White according to the census results.

4. I live in a very diverse area with a lot of recently arrived immigrants. I see no greater pressure on public services or employment here than I did in the almost exclusively White British town where I lived previously.

5. About half of the children in dd's state school class have English as an additional language. Some arrive with no English at all. The school gets outstanding results in maths and English. Six of the eight children in the top ability group have English as a second language and dd is bilingual. Only one of the eight has English as her only language.

6. It would appear that the people complaining about immigration on this thread have little understanding of our existing immigration rules.

7. Anyone who is concerned about the skin colour of their neighbours is a cunt.

exexpat
My sons go to a private school in one of the London boroughs that are on the list for lowest proportion of white british and the school does reflect the local population. It always makes me a bit hmm when people talk about private schools being white middle class. Middle class - yes; but being middle class is not the preserve of white British people.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 00:36:11

Chaz, I think those charts are a bit misleading though. London is a city, so it doesn't make sense to compare it with whole regions. If you looked at the demographics of many cities outside London, the difference would not be so stark.

My nearest city is apparently 45% white British, and nearly 50% of residents are from non-white or mixed backgrounds. It is one of the more diverse cities undoubtedly, but I don't think my smaller town is far behind. However, if you looked at the figures for the region, you could be forgiven for thinking it was predominantly White British.

Jinsei
London is not the only diverse place in the UK but when you look at the figures it is by far and away the largest concentration of diversity and some regions of the country are really not very diverse at all.

exexpat Wed 12-Dec-12 00:42:22

Jinsei, I agree - I think it's an urban/rural divide . Obviously the stats for regions outside London cover wider areas including cities/towns/villages, and generally the lower the population density, the higher the proportion of white British residents, I think.

If you just looked at cities, the comparison with London wouldn't be so stark, though London is likely still to have the highest non-British-born population because it has so many international employers, as well as the capital-city-effect in attracting migration in general (from elsewhere in the UK as well as overseas).

x post
True London is a city but over 10% of the UK population live in London so it is comparable with regions. I take your point that within regions there are some very diverse cities and towns and I suspect that the level of diversity outside of urban areas is lower.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 00:44:39

I totally agree that some regions are not diverse, I have lived in them. But, according to the census, my local city has a similar percentage of White British residents as London, so I disagree that London is far and away the largest concentration. It is broadly comparable in my view.

I know that my area isn't typical of the whole country, but can't help getting irritated when people assume that London is the only place where this level of diversity is normal. It isn't. smile

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 00:45:57

X post again! grin

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 00:49:23

Oh, and the population of London may be comparable with that of whole regions, but the experience of the people living in those regions will differ hugely depending on where they live, so I think the comparison becomes a bit meaningless!

The detailed figures for my small town have not been published yet but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd estimate the White British population here being at around the 60% mark.

Jinsei
I meant largest concentration by number rather than %, sorry should have been clearer.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 00:54:59

Ah ok. Obviously that's true.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 01:03:04

Oh, and one more thing that I meant to add earlier.

I used to live (as an immigrant shock) in one of the most densely populated regions of a country that is more densely populated than the UK. There was lots of beautiful countryside and the quality of life there was better than it is here. Our island is not overcrowded, whatever the scaremongerers might want us to believe.

dinkybinky Wed 12-Dec-12 06:34:35

Jinsei, the UK is becoming overcrowded due to the 3 million people entering the UK. School spaces are limited as are hospitals and jobs where do you think we will be in another 10 years if another 3,4 or 5 million people arrive?

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 06:45:44

Dinky, what about the effect of the numbers leaving, already referred to a number of times in this thread? Surely net migration, not just incoming people, is the relevant figure?

BelleDameSousMistletoe Wed 12-Dec-12 07:07:20

This will add nothing to the discussion...

This country is changing. It has always been changing. I hope it always does. If you went back through history you'd be able to find people whinging about the same things again and again. "Those pesky Huguenots coming over here and taking all our textile jobs..." etc, etc.

If you can't or won't embrace change then you will stagnate.

fairylightsandtinsel Wed 12-Dec-12 07:15:15

sorry, haven't read whole thread but just one point - the island is not overcrowded. The SE feels congested, but outside London itself, something like 1-2% of the island is actually built on, that's all. The idea of immigrants taking jobs is also a red herring if you look at the stats (can't quote details, DH is economics MA and teacher but not here right now to give me the numbers but its something we have discussed many times).

Chandon Wed 12-Dec-12 07:17:14

I like the Hugenots analogy!

When I heard the census news, I thought: " but wait! I am an immigrant and my DC were born abroad, but but BUT we LOVE England and....we drink tea and eat scones and celebrated the Jubilee....I accidentally cheered on the British athletes and and and....stop, wait, we are NICE immigrants. I worked really hard on improving my English!

But I guess not all Brits see it like that.

My next door neighbour once told me he wished all immigrants would go back home. I said that was an odd ting to say to...an immigrant. He said :" you are alright Chandon, I know you. it is the other foreigners I mind about."

To be fair, I can see why people are worried about unlimited immigration, and being "overrun" by foreign culture. That is quite a big fear to have to live with (though maybe not rational, and actually based in racism).

But the whole census result and its focus on " white British" made me feel uncomfortable. To count British people, fine, but what does skin colour have to do with anything?

I always HATE filling out my ethnicity on those census forms. Whose business is it, and why do they want to know????

Abra1d Wed 12-Dec-12 07:48:54

'There was lots of beautiful countryside and the quality of life there was better than it is here. Our island is not overcrowded, whatever the scaremongerers might want us to believe'

According to the Campaign for Rural England much of SE england is more densely populated than pretty well anywhere else in Europe. Even Belgium. Fact. And it patently is an issue.

Nancy66 Wed 12-Dec-12 07:57:48

Our island as a whole isn't over crowded - parts of it are though.

I've been in London for 25 years now - irish by birth so an immigrant myself - but I do notice how much more crowded the capital feels.

JamNan Wed 12-Dec-12 08:06:48

All the immigrants I know are married to British-born men and women.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Dec-12 08:07:59

dinky have you not recently come back to the UK after living abroad?

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 08:12:45

Abra1d - cherry picked and potentially misleading fact. The population density of London (NOT including the SE) is 5199 people per sq km, of course that will skew the rest of the SE if lumped together. No other region has a population density of over 500 - roughly the same as the whole of the Netherlands.

Excluding London, the population density of England is 349 people per square km - lower than Belgium.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 08:28:21

Is it only the non-whites who make an island overcrowded then, OP? White immigrants like myself take up no physical space? But somebody whose ancestors have been living in this country since the 18th century adds to the crowding?

Tell me, is it the additional pigment that makes such a difference to the overcrowding or something else?

dinkybinky Wed 12-Dec-12 09:14:15

Net migration into Britain – the number of people arriving to settle here minus the number who leave permanently to set up home in a foreign country – is running at around 200,000 a year, which means we’re adding a million to the population every five years, even before the new arrivals have any children.
In terms of the UK’s net immigration, it isn’t just numbers that should concern us; it is the type of people leaving and the type of people arriving.
The people that are leaving are, in the main, literate, moderately well-off, educated and/ or skilled and speak English like natives.
The people that are arriving are, in the main, illiterate, indigent, uneducated and/ or unskilled and do not speak English. In addition, because of the dire state of the countries they have left, they are more or less totally amoral.
Net immigration accordingly represents a massive drain on and threat to our society, a society that has been painstakingly constructed by our ancestors over the last 1,000-odd years.
Yes, we have been invaded in the past and yes, we have had waves of immigration in the past, but times were different then and that argument is no longer valid.
Ever increasing population will only lead to increased racial tensions, ever expanding islamic ghettos, a collapsing social security and health care system, lower living standards, soaring house prices, urban sprawl, decreasing agricultural capacity, water shortages, energy shortages and soaring unemployment, especially amongst the young and less skilled/educated yet unskilled people will still keep coming because the UK will still be a better option than where they come from.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 12-Dec-12 09:20:17

that very interesting Dinky

now again have you not recently come back to the UK after living abroad? if so what led you to go and come back

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 09:23:17

Firstly, that net migration figure is an estimate. Nobody actually knows how many people are coming into the UK to live and how many are leaving to live abroad. Nobody's counting.

Secondly, most immigrants who come here are highly educated - they have to be in order to fulfil the visa requirements and also in order to have the funds to get here in the first place. This is true of all immigrants everywhere - it's the people at the top who tend to leave, because they have the means to do so.

The rest is just racist bullshit and I'm tempted to report you.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 09:23:20

"In addition, because of the dire state of the countries they have left, they are more or less totally amoral."

Really? If somebody has to flee their own country because they have been protesting against an oppressive regime, that makes them amoral?

Changeforthrday Wed 12-Dec-12 09:23:58

Everywhere is more crowded though - the earths population is increasing! I have photos or my grandparents in Rome in the late 50s - the streets are so empty! I have photos of them in front of famous monuments with only them in the shot. You can't swing a cat there now! London is more populated now - but it has been on the increase since it was a settlement in the side of the Thames!

Also crowded because of increase in tourism. Whem my grandparents did their globetrotting, they were very unusual because they chose to travel abroad. Even when I was a child, most children didn't go abroad for their summer holidays.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 09:28:22

I am of course interested to hear that I am illiterate, indigent, uneducated and/ or unskilled and more or less totally amoral. Oh, and I don't speak English either. Which might come as a bit of a blow to my undergraduates who rely on me for feedback on their essays. Oh well, more or less total amorality should be able to find a solution to that problem.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:33:11

Wallison - I don't think you can be right. When I did asylum work all my clients were desperately poor; the problem was they were in reality economic migrants seeking a better way of life and trying to shoe horn their histories into something that would fit the UN category of refugee. Hence a huge culture of suspicion has grown up between the UK Border Agency and those claiming asylum.

Didn't Blunkett grant an amnesty for 30,000 asylum claimants? I heard tha was because there was a flood at immigration offices in Croydon and rats ate the rest of the paperwork.

I agree there has not been adequate record keeping.

I don't think it is remotely racist to be worried that there is a large influx of people into our major cities who for whatever reasons are not integrating well. A lot of my clients had been in UK for years but could not speak English and needed interpreters at every court hearing, at vast public expense. I don't think this is a healthy or sustainable state of affairs for any country.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 09:36:51

Worrying about immigration and consequent overcrowding is one thing. Linking it to skin colour- as was done in the OP- is a totally different matter and absolutely indefensible.

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 09:38:03

Well now immigrants are amoral, are they Dinky?

What will you do if you need hospital treatment and the ward staff includes some of these amoral nurses?

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 09:39:42

^ In addition, because of the dire state of the countries they have left, they are more or less totally amoral.

I guess here you are talking about refugees. You do realise, don't you, that most refugees live in a country that borders the one they have left? In global terms, the countries with the most refugees are Pakistan and Iran. In the UK, refugees make up 0.3% of the population. Hardly the stuff of 'rivers of blood', is it?

Changeforthrday Wed 12-Dec-12 09:40:39

So how are we to judge the 'worthy immigrant' then? I met a lovely family yesterday. Parents both doctors, three of the brightest, most polite and friendly children I have met in a long time. OMG they were forrin'. Bloody cheek. Fleeing from a civil war, coming here, scrounging off the... Hang on, they had bought their house and kids were going private.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:43:23

As no adequate records have been kept, you can't state with confidence what percentage of the pop is made up of refugees. And it isn't helpful to talk about country as a whole. The problem is with the cities, where people (quite naturally and understandably) join with others of similar background and language. The proportion of recent immigrants in London will be much higher than 0.3%.

This is a debate that needs to happen. And shutting people down with cries of 'racism' will get us nowhere.

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 09:45:16

Spero - 47% of immigrants to the UK have completed tertiary education. This is actually a higher figure than the indigenous population.

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 09:47:06

The figures for refugees come from the UNHCR who monitors refugees and their movements worldwide and yes they do keep track of numbers.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:47:55

I don't ascribe to the completely amoral description but it was very clear to me that a large number of my clients did not tell the truth to people they perceived to be in authority as that had not benefitted them in their countries of origin where bribery and corruption were prevalent. Why do you think they were so keen to get out?

The trouble is, these attitudes do become internalized and it does have an impact on your willingness or ability to integrate into a different country. You can't just say multiculturalism is great, let's just all get along. I fear that we are simply encouraging parallel living with no integration. This causes tension for all. that is certainly what I noticed after two years loving just up from Brixton tube station.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:49:52

Walls ion - how on earth were the UN keeping records of the 30,000 who got an amnesty? They came to the Uk illegally, they had no status, then the Uk records got destroyed! The UN cannot track people who are trafficked, because they are trafficked by criminals. A lot then go under radar in UK and have no paperwork.

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 09:52:39

You do realise that there is a difference between an immigrant and a refugee, don't you? Only you appear to be conflating the two and using the terms interchangably, which makes your points hard to read and detracts from what you are saying.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:53:14

I wonder what proportion of my clients from Afghanistan completed tertiary education. Not many I guess as none spoke English and not many could read or write their own language.

I agree that immigration can benefit a country. But to refer back to the Hugenots for eg is jus not helpful. The world very different now. Global movement is massive, facilitated by criminal gangs of traffickers and I think the presents a serious problem for our major cities re integration and provision of basic services such as education.

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 09:53:28

Oh and now we're onto trafficking.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:56:18

Wallison - sorry, thought I had already made my point re immigration/refugee. I worked on asylum claims from 2000 - 2003 when applications were at their height. I would say 80% or more of my clients were not in fact refugees according to the UN definition. Escaping situations of war and grinding poverty, yes, but not groups subject to persecution.

I think a large part of the problem is that the Uk is the only country who gives asylum seekers indefinite leave to remain, rather than five years or so. That certainly encouraged a massive amount of applicants.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 09:57:06

So you don't think trafficking is an issue? I think the UN disagree with you there.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 09:59:51

Agree with Wallison that the conflation of terms is not helpful.

The OP started out with colour as somehow a problem - which would imply that white immigrants are not a problem or that coloured non-immigrants somehow are. Or that all immigrants are coloured. Or that all coloured people are immigrants.

Now we are onto refugees, with no sense of how we got there: does that mean refugees are a problem but other immigrants are not?

And that refugees make up the bulk of immigration (this I do not believe)?

I am still struggling to see exactly how illiterate, indigent and amoral I am supposed to be, because the goal posts keep changing all the time. confused

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 10:01:39

Spero a debate about the impact of immigration would be fine. But this thread started by referring specifically to colour.

And that's the problem isn't it? The large number of Portuguese or Polish immigrants in areas near me might draw comments, but not as many (or as negative) as the area with a lot of south Asian immigrants 5 miles down the road.

If a debate on immigration focuses only on immigrants who are not white then it is not a fair one.

The part of London I live in is very mixed in terms of country of birth, race, wealth, religion and culture. My experience is that race might be the most obvious difference between people, but it is not the most divisive.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 10:10:36

Cory - sorry if I am being confusing.

The problem as I see it, having experienced the legal system for asylum apps and lived in Brixton for two years, is there has been a large influx of people into the UK which has not for various reasons been monitored. A large proportion of those people have come from appalling situations of poverty and war. They are not well educated or skilled. Quite understandably they wish to make a home with people they can talk to.

So in the cities we are building up, effectively ghettos. People who can't speak english are massively disenfranchised. It is difficult to make plans for the education and health provision of a community when it isn't clear how many are coming and going and many members of that community have significant needs - for eg interpreters in schools, hospitals and courts.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 10:14:34

I agree that if you object to people because of their colour, you are a mindless plank. But I also object to the fact it seems difficult to discuss all these issues without being accused of racism. The majority of my clients were a slightly different colour to me. So what? I am much more concerned about how they are going to make a life for themselves in the UK when there was very little in place to help them integrate - in fact worse than that, the prevailing attitude seemed to be that to expect integration was somehow oppressive and racist.

Your culture and language are very important. But there has to be integration, and this can happen without losing either.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 10:18:35

But surely the largest element of non-white people in London - which is what this thread title was about- are not asylum sekers, but immigrants or the descendants of immigrants from former British colonies?

The OP itself was about immigration- of which, again, the asylum seekers form a relatively small portion.

I can't help thinking you are posting on the wrong thread here, Spero, and adding to the general implication that all immigrants and all coloured people belong to the same group, and that this group as a whole is morally questionable.

Kendodd Wed 12-Dec-12 10:26:37

We have never travelled so much and so easily before people all over the world are moving, here, there, and everywhere. I remember reading a while ago that some people don't like the way we are being 'swamped' so are moving to Spain. hmm

I expect a big chunk of the non whites living in London are born there anyway.

Although I do think you have a point about pressure on services from to many people, maybe the government should try to encourage people to have fewer children? Although I can imagine the outrage if the government expressed an opinion on this.

Surely the UK will know how many people have been granted Refugee status as they will have granted the status to them in the first place and issued a travel document in lieu of a passport.

Dinky - the vast majority of DH's friends are well educated and hard working (and <<whispers>> some of them came over here as Refugees from countries having civil wars etc).

ThinkAboutItOnBoxingDay Wed 12-Dec-12 10:31:16

Haven't read the thread, sorry. At 14 pages it's probably all been said already!

I am as boringly white British as they come. I live in London. On my way to work I can hear 10 different languages each morning. I LOVE this about london. It's why I live in London and not the quaint but dull provincial town I was born in!

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 10:33:43

I don't see what's so great about integration per se. Plenty of Brits abroad never integrate at all. And all of this talk about 'It's for their own good' and 'Really I'm just worried about them' smacks of something paternalistic to me - you know, how you can't possibly be happy unless you do things in a certain way. Everyone has their own way of living.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 10:38:02

Were the Jews escaping from Nazi Germany also all totally amoral? Surely a fair few of them must have told a few lies to the Nazi authorities- otherwise they would hardly have got away with their lives. So how much has the country suffered from this influx of amorality?

JassyRadlett Wed 12-Dec-12 10:45:09

I think cory is spot on - focusing on asylum seekers isn't going to give you a picture of the true immigration landscape so again can be misleading in terms of the wider debate (and also what can, legally, be done if people feel there is a problem.)

And Spero, with due respect to your experiences I'm wary of anectode as I'm unconvinced that an individual's case load is even a true representation of the full picture of asylum seekers, let alone immigrants, and I'm wary of conflating the two.

I'm an immigrant - white other, living in London. My son is one of those pesky children born to a mother born outside the UK. The fact that his father is British-born is apparently immaterial. I'm fairly literate, I pay my share of taxes and I like to think have a decent moral code.

It might like to help dinky, in making comments about how most immigrants are amoral and illiterate due to the strife-torn countries they left, to actually read the Census and learn where the majority of recent migrants have come from.

jjuice Wed 12-Dec-12 11:30:37

Amberleaf how bizarre you should call the OP a liar.

If she is lying for the sake of this thread then she must have a crystal ball as she clearly says on this thread in Marchwww.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1438950-Is-saying-half-caste-racist-if-so-why#30889166

that she is of mixed race and you yourself are on that thread. I didn't read it all so I may have missed something.

Nice to see everyone patting themselves on the back for outing a racist though. Well done.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 11:36:54

I contributed to the debate because people were making comments about numbers of people who enter the UK - whether as immigrants, refugees or economic migrants. And I am pointing out we just don't know because for a very long time the UK system of border control has not been fit for purpose.

If you maintain the position that it is ok for people to move countries and make no efforts to become part of the society in which they now live, I think that is a recipe for great tension as well as doing a great disservice to people who find themselves disenfranchised by their lack of ability to communicate.

I don't pretend t be some all knowing oracle of wisdom about everything. But nor do I accept you can dismiss my experience and knowledge as mere 'anecdote'. I worked specifically in the asylum/immigration field for 3 years ( and remain a member of the immigration law practitioners association, so keep up to date with my reading). I have also lived in Inner London on and off since 1989 and worked all over the city, mainly in it's most deprived areas (my specialism now is family). So I do have some idea what I am talking about from direct experience of issues in question.

FrothyOM Wed 12-Dec-12 11:38:35

Has mumsnet had a sudden influx of racists?

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 11:40:36

So what are your thoughts on the Jews fleeing Nazi persecution: did the lies they had to tell lead to chronic amorality? Or is this a modern phenomenon?:

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 11:41:32

That is exactly the kind of comment that pisses me off. I think people have quite genuine and reasonable concerns about uncontrolled and unmonitored entry of people into a country where there is already considerable pressure on the provision of basic services.

I do not understand why that makes someone a racist. It's not a colour issue. To shut down debate by crying 'racist' is both irritating and dangerous.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 11:45:32

Cory- I dealt with a lot of young men from Africa, Afghanistan etc. Countries where basic standards of living had broken down. Officials were uniformly corrupt, the rule of law was non existent or existed only if you could pay for it. T grow up in that kind of society does lead you to internalize certain ways of behaving. You learn not to be honest with people in power, because it gets you no where, would even harm you.

nazi Germany was a whole different problem. A functioning and well run state, poisoned by an evil ideology.

The world is different now. People are more aware of what they are missing out on due to the Internet. They want a better life, and who can blame them. But they are often not people who are persecuted for their race or religion, just people having a really shit time in their country of origin.

FellatioNelson Wed 12-Dec-12 11:47:32

Pah, trying being Qatari. In a country of 1.75 million people only 300,000 of them are indigenous. How's that for feeling swamped out by immigrants?

RebeccaTheHallsMumsnet (MNHQ) Wed 12-Dec-12 12:42:26

Hi all,

We don't want to censor discussion of this country's immigrants patterns (although it might be quieter day at MNHQ if we did!).

But we'd like to remind you all of our Talk Guidelines, please - in particular the rules about no personal attacks (feel free to attack the opinion but not the poster) and about making generalised, negative and discriminatory statements about a particular cultural or racial group.

dinkybinky Wed 12-Dec-12 12:45:34

Pah, trying being Qatari. In a country of 1.75 million people only 300,000 of them are indigenous. How's that for feeling swamped out by immigrants?

But expats in Qatar are only allowed to stay for as long as their visa allows, they're not allowed to use free schools or hospitals or be a drain on their society.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 13:32:44

"According to the Campaign for Rural England much of SE england is more densely populated than pretty well anywhere else in Europe. Even Belgium. Fact. And it patently is an issue."

I wasn't talking about anywhere in Europe, so your comparison is pretty irrelevant. I have lived in densely populated parts of SE England, and I have lived in even more densely populated areas overseas. I have seen no evidence to suggest overcrowding in either location, and I would suggest that your argument is being driven by another agenda entirely.

There is so much ignorance on this thread. It makes me so relieved to know that my neighbours are intelligent, well-informed and tolerant, regardless of their ethnic background/country of origin.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 13:39:09

Having struggled on the tube for about a decade, may I politely snort in derision at any suggestion that London is not massively overcrowded.

EldritchCleavage Wed 12-Dec-12 13:49:23

'In London in 2011, 45% (3.7 million) out of 8.2 million usual residents were White British'

This statement from the article tells you nothing about immigration, necessarily. It tells you about 'usual residents' of London, many of whom will be foreign students, temporary workers, and medium-term residents etc, who will return to their country of origin or move on to another country at some point.

London is the world's capital city, as New York was in the 80s and early 90s and somewhere else (probably Shanghai) will be in due course. People are being rather unreasonable to take all the benefits to the UK's economy/international standing etc of that while issuing coded and not so coded complaints about all the foreigners cluttering up the place.

They aren't all a burden by any means. Some of the foreign people of colour are educated and rich. Many of them keep the NHS going.

And bear in mind that a lot of migration is from EU citizens with an absolute right to freedom of movement within the EU. Not all EU migrants are white, by a long chalk. I know quite a few French migrants of North African ethnicity who've come here because it offers them far more opportunities than at home.

Of course, we have the same right, and I have never noticed a thread on Mumsnet suggesting all the British expats moving to Spain, Cyprus, Greece, Bulgaria or wherever to build new lives (generally without learning the language or about the host culture) were a blight on the countries they moved to.

By all means discuss immigration and whether there needs to be a limit and where but remember to take the rough with the smooth.

Jinsei Wed 12-Dec-12 13:50:51

And I might equally snort in derision at the suggestion that London is crowded only because of immigration. Immigrants tend to go where the jobs are. I would not dispute that a less centralised economy would have many benefits. However, that's a separate argument entirely.

Most major cities are crowded. Personally, I have seen much worse than London.

Abra1d Wed 12-Dec-12 14:07:38

'and I would suggest that your argument is being driven by another agenda entirely.

There is so much ignorance on this thread. It makes me so relieved to know that my neighbours are intelligent, well-informed and tolerant, regardless of their ethnic background/country of origin.'

jinsei I am in fact an immigrant's daughter. With a brother who migrated to another country. My argument is being led solely by the desire to preserve the scare commodity of countryside: the field outside my house, the village that has a poor water supply and no school places. And one bus a day to the town.

I could not give a fig who my neighbours are, in racial terms. My daughter's best friend is African, and if you had read further up the thread you would have seen me point to some excellent Indian doctors who have really helped some close family members.

I very much resent your implication that I am a racist and if you repeat it I will report your post to MN. Sorry to be heavy-handed but it is ridiculous that we cannot have a discussion without that accusation being bandied about.

melika Wed 12-Dec-12 14:18:41

My neice lives in London and she is really white!

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 14:19:40

'In London in 2011, 45% (3.7 million) out of 8.2 million usual residents were White British'

Let's also note that the category White British will exclude someone born in this country with one white European or American parent, as they will tick the White Mixed or White Other box.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 14:35:13

I have never suggested London is overcrowded because of immigration. Lomdon is overcrowded full stop. Thus it makes sense to be able to plan carefully for the needs of people living there. This is difficult to do when large numbers of people come to live in a city and clear records are not kept. It is even more difficult when large numbers of the people who arrive cannot speak English. Almost all of my asylum cases required interpreters and about 30% of my family cases. Almost all of those involve people who have lived here for years.

And I also think large communities of English speakers in other countries who make no attempt to integrate, speak the language etc are equally worthy of criticism. It does nothing but cause resentment as far as I can see.

motherinferior Wed 12-Dec-12 14:40:54

I live in London but I'm OK by you, I'm white. Very very very white. I look Celtic.

Oooh but but but, OP, I am in deep white cover because my mum is a Wicked Forriner with a brown skin, who moved here from India (to go to Oxford) in the 1950s.

We're everywhere. Just as you think you've got a naice white person to sympathise with about these Wicked Forriners, we emerge...Be afraid. Be very, very afraid.

Really afraid. Please. Go on.

EldritchCleavage Wed 12-Dec-12 14:43:37

Good point cory. I am in that category.

maillotjaune Wed 12-Dec-12 14:47:06

That the capacity of the Tube is insufficient at peak times, in many parts of London, is true.

That is not evidence of the ills of immigration though.

Wallison Wed 12-Dec-12 14:52:28

It's all the bladdy tourists. Wandering around stopping at the tops of escalators and taking the tube from Covent Garden to Leicester Square etc.

autumnlights12 Wed 12-Dec-12 14:56:54

most BNP types are fine with white immigrants. It's dark skinned immigrants they've an inexplicable disgusting dislike of

cornflowers Wed 12-Dec-12 14:57:12

Have you read the thread, mother inferior? Op is mixed race.

motherinferior Wed 12-Dec-12 15:14:37

And my point still stands that a naice white person can be mixed race too.

FellatioNelson Wed 12-Dec-12 15:15:46

dinky they are allowed to use the state schools and state healthcare actually, but most choose not to, as their Expat packages cover education and private healthcare.

But yes, we are here as guests for as long as it suits our sponsors and we have no right to remain, no chance of ever converting to full citizenship, or any recourse to public funds in the way of benefits.

And we ALL are only here by invitation, to do a specific job. No job, no sponsorship, no visa. No exceptions.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 15:52:00

My next door neighbour once told me he wished all immigrants would go back home. I said that was an odd ting to say to...an immigrant. He said :" you are alright Chandon, I know you. it is the other foreigners I mind about."

Chandon I used to get that all the time, people would genuinely forget! Or they would say oh not your kindsays it all angry (I am white and a native English speaker)

cory I am amoral too I guess grin

Santaandme Wed 12-Dec-12 15:52:49

"I used to live in an area of London I would say was 90% non white. Even in the four years I lived there there was a massive influx of people mostly from African countries such as Nigeria. It caused a lot of problems particularly in the NHS. There just weren't the resources in the area to cope with demand. At the GPs you had to queue from 7.30am to get an appointment even then you were lucky. The midwives and health visitors were stretched to breaking point as well. I believe the local schools were not coping well either and didn't have th extra support in place for a lot of children whose first language wasn't English."

sweetkitty, for your information, English is the first language for many many Nigerians. Also for people to continue living here, UK border agency makes them prove that they can speak and understand the English language to an intermediate level. So please get your facts right before posting.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 16:09:08

jjuice occasionally popping up on controversial threads or starting obviously trolly posts and qualifying with I can say that because I am black then disappearing off them does not mean that the the OP is NOT a troll.

Please genuinely, all of you crying and wringing your hands at the lost country side... what do you really want to happen? The UK is an island but you are also a citizen of EARTH. Earth and it's resources are being over run by the 7 billion inhabitants. These people need homes. Where do you propose they go? Where can they live while there children are being abused in war torn countries? When they can't feed or give clean water to their children? Where should they go so as to preserve the very paleness of Norfolk? The lovely rolling hills of the British country side?

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 16:10:15

There are many people in the UK who arrived clandestinely, of whom UKBA are unaware. They are not subject to English language testing.

SmellsLikeTeenStrop Wed 12-Dec-12 16:12:05

I like that Willy Wonka meme ''Oh, so you're afraid of whites becoming a minority. Why? Are minorities treated like second class citizens or something?''

That says it all really.

memegenerator.net/instance/26642605

^ the meme itself

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 16:18:56

cozy9 how is London wonderful?

Its interesting, exciting, loads to do, busy, full of history, culture, green space, fantastic buildings, working class history...a long, long list.

Why isn't it wonderful?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 16:20:14

I like that SLTS!

Abra1d Wed 12-Dec-12 16:26:24

I'll tell you exactly what I want to happen.

--No more houses in rural areas built until all unused housing stock is inhabited.
--No more houses built in fields until brownfield sites used

I'm baffled if I can see how this is making some kind of racist assertion. Given my background, I am doubly baffled.

And I am triply baffled by the idea of the 'rolling hills' of Norfolk.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 16:30:23

Well, London wasn't wonderful for me because I couldn't afford more than a two bed flat in an area where my car was smashed into twice in one week, where there were crack dealers at my gate - although they were always very polite and probably kept the teenage gangsters at bay as after the police chased them all over Windrush Square the numbers of teenage boys on bikes with guns went up quite a lot.

It wasn't wonderful to spend up to two hours a day crushed into a tube carriage or wait at Victoria for hours every time the tube went down.

I think London is great. I would move back instantly if I won Euromillions andcould afford a house. But there are lots of reasons it wasn't wonderful, especially if you don't have much money.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 18:32:26

Amberleaf how bizarre you should call the OP a liar

Not bizarre at all, because I think she/he is a liar

If she is lying for the sake of this thread then she must have a crystal ball as she clearly says on this thread in March that she is of mixed race and you yourself are on that thread

She also said she doesn't see the problem with being called half cast, then went onto say something about some people seeing racism in everything, spoken like a true racist

Not everyone is what they make out to be on the internet, you can say you are whatever takes your fancy, it doesn't make it true. what people say often gives them away

Doingitonarooftopwithsanta is right, have a look at the OPs posts.

I stand by my opinion that she/he is full of it.

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 19:04:02

What money?
where do you imagine I live confused

catgirl1976geesealaying Wed 12-Dec-12 20:38:41

this report is really a must read....

AuntLucyInTheNorthPole Wed 12-Dec-12 20:43:51

We love how multicultural London is. I even have a bee in my bonnet that my children's school doesn't employ enough non-Caucasian teachers (given how statistically unlikely it is in London that 95% of the best applicants are always white <quizzical face that I can't make the bloody iPhone do>.

jjuice Wed 12-Dec-12 21:07:17

Doingitontheroofwithsanta I didn't say the OP wasn't being troll. I merely stated that it was bizarre to call the op a liar about her ethnicity when she has mentioned it months ago.
Amberleaf
Your Mum is not a black Jamaican OP.Stop lying.

Is not quite the same as saying you think she is not telling the truth.

I also find your evidence to back this up bizarre, because she doesn't have a problem with being called half caste she must be a racist...I better go and tell my mate who when I asked him a few years ago what was the correct way to describe his ethnicity and he said quarter caste- bet he doesn't realise how many white people he is offending!

Quite a few people on here have tried to have a sensible debate about the report and have just been bashed down as racists...almost every single one of them. (there are some twatish comments too but not all of them are racist. No wonder nobody dares to talk about anything that might remotely be construed as racist)

hides under table and waits for the shout of racist! well I MUST be- I mentioned a mixed race friend and you only do this when you are proving how you aren't a racist. FFFFS

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 21:19:25

jjuice

I think the OP is not who they claim to be.

That is all.

Ive read the OPs posts before and I think it is clear that they have an agenda.

jjuice Wed 12-Dec-12 21:41:40

maybe I am just very naive I just read on another thread that people thought that the Zeebrugge poster was a troll...I thoroughly believed and cried over the story. I tend to just take people as they are. That's probably why I get shit on all the time

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 21:48:27

MrsdeVere - I don't know where you live. I lived in Brixton. I am glad I moved out, for my daughter's sake. We were half a mile away from the Stockwell newsagent where the little girl was shot and paralysed.

Yes, London is fantastic and vibrant and buzzing. But there is also a pretty big downside in terms of crime and violence. And it is difficult to insulate yourself from that unless you are wealthy and can afford to live in an area that reflects that. I think it is naive to claim otherwise.

MrsDeVere Wed 12-Dec-12 22:21:33

I am not naive.
And I am not well off.

I live in East London. Not the posh bit.

I do not feel the same way as you.

I am actually getting a bit fed up with this idea on MN that if you are not unhappy with living in London (or another big city) you are rich and/or deluded.
London is my home. It is where I am from and where I want to stay. We are a low income family living in a working class area in an unfashionable (so far) part of East London.

This is a thread about non-white people in London not crime.

Spero Wed 12-Dec-12 23:22:51

I don't expect you to feel the same as me. But when you responded with incredulity to one poster about what was NOT wonderful about London, I gave my view. London is not wonderful in many ways.

You can't expect everyone to think the same way as you either.

This thread I thought was about people's views about immigration, the good and the bad. I don't see I have strayed that far off topic, but if you don't find my contribution useful you are welcome to ignore it.

Cozy9 Wed 12-Dec-12 23:25:05

MrsDeVere, have you ever lived outside of London? What do you like about London that you wouldn't have elsewhere in Britain?

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 23:43:50

Ive lived outside London.

I don't feel my family is accepted outside of London. In London people can just be that is one of the reasons why I love my hometown and will never leave other than to go on holiday.

<Im not rich either not do I live in a 'fashionable' part of London>

jjuice, oh god yes, the Zebrugge one was deffo a troll/faker.

Pantofino Wed 12-Dec-12 23:44:45

What doe that have to do with anything? I grew up in South East Kent, which 30 years ago had NO ethic minorities beyond the Indian or Chinese restaurant. And 20 years ago had a HUGE influx of Eastern Europeans who then were blamed for everything and every crime going, whether it was them or not.

Now I am an EU immigrant myself. My dd is at school - a local state school - with a huge range of children from different backgrounds and countries. It reflects the place where she lives and the time in which she lives. It is totally different from my school experience which was nice white C of E stuff. Even I get to learn and grow. Like not to just give Haribo on birthdays,....

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 07:53:56

I don't expect everybody to agree with me.
I get pissed off when people assert you have to be rich or deluded to like being in London.

I wouldn't start talking about crime and being scared out of the blue on a thread about non whites. Not due to the fear of offending or because I am pc gone mad. It just wouldn't pop into my head.

But then my four boys are non white and will have to grow up dealing with people making those connections. Young black men are probably engender more fear than the Zombie Apocalypse hmm

I have lived out of London as a child and I didn't like it much. I came back to London ASAP.

My family all live in delightful Devon but it does not appeal to me as a place to live.

Why shouldnt I want to stay in London cozy ? What will I find elsewhere that I can't find in London?

I would like to live by the sea but there is Brighton for that if I ever win the lottery.

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 08:15:37

Mrsdevere - you seemed amazed tha someone could find London anything other than amazing. That annoyed me has I have plenty of reasons as to why it wasn't amazing.

But nice to see your suggestion that this makes me a closet racist. I have no idea the colour of the people who broke into my car as I didn't see them. But the group of workmen who helped me get the broken glass off my daughters car seat were a mix of black and white and I was very grateful to them all.

Yes the crack dealers seemed to be mostly black and their clients mostly white men in suits.

What I see with my eyes does not make me racist. It is the interpretations I put on what I see.

I am pissed off that allegations of racism appear to be made to shut down other people's arguments.

Mimishimi Thu 13-Dec-12 08:18:04

YABU to be shocked. It's not like it's a particularly sudden development. It's just now in the face of those who cheered it on and they hope that those pushed out by it come back to save the day ;)

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 08:52:28

Spero I deliberately did NOT call you a racist, closet or otherwise. So much for people being afraid of being called a racist. What about those of us who are being accused of calling others racist FFs?

You bought up crime and being scared. I am not going to second guess your motives.
Your other point is equally ridiculous. Me responding to others not liking London is hardly me being incredulous that other people would want to live elsewhere.

I like it. I am sure others don't but how should I respond to others telling me I shouldn't like it either?

I have not posted in here telling people they are stupid to not like London. I have objected to being told I must be rich or deluded to disagree with them.

Please do not try and shut me down with your accusations. It's annoying. The only person I have called racist on this thread is nick griffin. I am sick of the hysteria on this thread.

NumericalMum Thu 13-Dec-12 09:11:47

I live in quite a "dodgy" part of SE London. I have never seen the sort of things being referred to here? My neighbours come from all ethnic backgrounds and cultures. I have had my car burgled and house burgled, both times living in a naice part of town!

On the train today from SE London almost the entire train carriage was white! How does that work OP?

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 10:44:57

Sorry MrsDev, I thought the insinuation in your post was quite clear - only a racist would bring up fear of crime in London in a thread that talked about colours of skin. If I got the wrong end of the stick, I am sorry and glad you are not accusing me of racism.

But I haven't noticed much hysteria on this thread.

Like I say, I loved London and was heartbroken to leave. I spent nearly all my adult life there from college when i was 19. But it doesn't make me racist or hysterical to say I wouldn't go back unless I could afford to house myself and my daughter somewhere where she didn't have to witness drug deals and people falling over drunk on the way to school.

Not do I think I am racist to say I am worried about the implications of large groups of people living parallel lives to each other, with no or very little integration and huge differences in terms of for eg attitudes to woman. And that is the downside to the mass influx of people that certainly London has seen in last decade. It is nothing like the Jews or the Hugenots. This is global movement on an unprecedented scale and I think our politicians have mostly sleep walked into a potentially dangerous situation.

If you don't age with me, fine. But if you want to explain why I am wrong, you will get no where simply calling me a racist - I will just think you a fool. And that is a general 'you' not directed at anyone in particular.

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 12:49:30

I would have thought it clear that I don't go in for insinuating spero.

If I think someone is a racist I will tell them. Same as I would stand up to anyone calling me a racist to force me to back off.

Anyway I would be more likely to say 'that comment sounded racist' or 'I think you should think about why you look at things that way' instead of screaming racist at anyone who doesn't agree with me.

Because the most important thing to me is that those who are currently unable to challenge their perceptions, learn to do so.

If I can't get them to do that I will leave them to it but I reserve the right to think they are racist if they express racist views.

I genuinely do not see the connection with your fear of crime and this thread. You have said yourself that it wasn't about the black people etc. Immigration and lack of integration doesn't cause street crime. Poverty, lack of education and opportunity and lack of guidance cause street crime.

I happen to be of the opinion that people really SHOULD learn English as soon as they can. I think it appalling that many don't. It causes all kinds of issues for families if the parents cant. I hate to see children used as interpreters and women isolated. It is frustrating for professionals and can be dangerous for the families.

Not racist because I do not expect them to wipe out their own background and language in favour of mine.
I want them to be able to participate fully and yes, I do think integration is very important.

But it always strikes me as ironic that those who bang on about the lack of integration are the very ones who move out to Clacton to get away from the darkies confused

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 12:58:19

Sorry, I thought I had made it very clear I was responding to your particular comment that you could see nothing that wasn't amazing about London. I simply set out a number of things that are far from amazing. One was crime, the other was the insane overcrowding in public transport. It was probably the latter that had most impact on driving me out - crime happened every now and then but the sheer hell of tubes and buses was every working day and it was making me very unhappy.

I am glad you don't go in for insinuations, but I am rather struck by your last point which reads to me as if you are suggesting I am one of the Clacton refugees! I have moved to another city - Bristol - which still retains some diversity and buzz but let's me live in a house only a mile from the main station and my office. I could never dreamed of achieving that in London.

So I just don't accept that all those who 'bang on' about integration are doing it behind their net curtains in all white areas.

EldritchCleavage Thu 13-Dec-12 13:30:24

Disclaimer: the following comment is not aimed at any particular poster:

What I find interesting is how people talk about integration nowadays. It has become a stick to beat many immigrants with-you don't want to integrate. Yet when post-war immigration started, 'integration' was precisely what many many white people objected to. They were horrified at the idea of integration and determined not to do it. A lot of the separateness people now find so threatening has developed from that time. How is it that white racism has disappeared as a factor when people discuss integration, and only immigrant intransigence is mentioned?

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 14:03:29

I can only speak from my experience of seeing people massively disadvantaged and cut off because they can't speak English. In family cases,i have represented many wives (and some husbands) who have come over from Indian or Pakistan to marry people in UK. When marriage breaks down they are even more isolated and vulnerable. People struggle in court, interpreters either don't turn up or are rubbish, cases can't proceed.

I thnk that all who wish to settle here should have some degree of competencein speaking English, this should be the expectation. I really strongly disagree this is paternalistic or patronising.

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 16:14:57

No. I am not suggesting you are a Clacton refugee.

It was a separate point. You made several in your post. I made several in mine.

SantasBigBaubles Thu 13-Dec-12 16:22:54

<<we'ed myself a bit at Clacton refugee>>

Spero Thu 13-Dec-12 17:42:56

Good. Glad that is all cleared up. I am not sure where Clacton is but suspect near Essex.

I don't think integration is about one culture subsuming another, which is presumably what racists who want integration want. I think your culture and language of origin are very important to your sense of identity and add another dimension of interest to your life.

What I mean by integration is learning the language and respecting the legal and societal norms of your country of choice, as opposed to your country of origin. Which in this country I think would have to include commitment not to discriminate on grounds of race, gender, religion or sexual orientation.

With that in mind, I don't see how for eg inviting sharia courts to play a greater role (as Rowan Williams argued) is a happy idea. I think that quite understandably causes a lot of people anxiety, and that is another example of the negative consequences of increased immigration.

FellatioNelson Thu 13-Dec-12 17:53:57

Hahaha - so true about Clacton!

proofreader Thu 13-Dec-12 17:56:39

I am not sure where Clacton is but suspect near Essex - whaaaat??
you don't know the famous song 'The last train to clacton'?

SantasBigBaubles Thu 13-Dec-12 17:57:36

it's abroad- in east angular

FellatioNelson Thu 13-Dec-12 18:12:11

Clacton is crammed to the gills with working class people from Romford and Ilford and Dagenham, who have never quite got over the shock of having black people and Asians arriving in 1970. grin They are your classic 'white flight'.

proofreader Thu 13-Dec-12 18:13:15

full of asylum seekers too.

MrsDeVere Thu 13-Dec-12 18:19:09

spero I feel pretty strongly about the language issue. I work with children with complex needs. It is impossible for the parents to negotiate the social and medical services with a poor grasp of English.

Trying to explain medical issues, genetics, therapy, appointments etc is incredibly frustrating for HCP and other professionals when there is no adult in the family fluent in English.
Interpreters are not the answer. Interpreting services are often poor and not objective. Using relatives is not satisfactory and using children is obscene IMO.

Mothers particularly become isloated and depressed and vulnerable to influences from family and community. The influences are not always bad by any means but when they are they can be fucking catastrophic.

motherinferior Thu 13-Dec-12 22:16:14

Agree with MrsDV about language. Totally.

Santaandme Thu 13-Dec-12 23:35:30

"There are many people in the UK who arrived clandestinely, of whom UKBA are unaware. They are not subject to English language testing. " This is true spero but I was specifically addressing the wrong assertion by sweetkitty in alluding that Nigerian kids struggle at school as English is not their first language which is not true. Even for those who came here by clandestine means as you put it can speak English.

Nigeria is a former British colony and English is the most widely spoken language there.

Spero Fri 14-Dec-12 00:06:42

I am really confused about where Clacton is now, but I am not going to spoil the mystery by googling. I shall imagine it as my safe haven when I am old and doddery and turn into a complete racist, like my dear old dad.

Santandme - yes, I cannot think of a single African client who has needed an interpreter in a family court, it is mainly people from India, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Afghnistan. We have big problems because there is a very limited pool of Farsi interpreters and many are known to the communities and parties sometimes object because they say Mr so and so is a good friend of the other side. It can be a nightmare.

I agree with MrsDeV - I don't see how you can fight for your child if you can't speak English, and some children need fighting for.

There used to be free language classes in Lambeth but I am guessing that those will have been one of the first things to go in the austerity measures.

Spero Fri 14-Dec-12 08:05:20

Just heard very interesting interview with Sadiq Khan on the Today programme about Labour's one nation integration policy. It is interesting, if unnerving to find that for once I am entirely in agreement with the Labour party. The issue of racial segregation in primary schools is particularly worrying: if this were imposed by the State we would be world pariahs.

So if I am a racist, at least the Labour Party are keeping me company.

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