To wish my father would SHUT THE FUCK UP

(76 Posts)
BalthierBunansa Tue 11-Dec-12 17:27:27

Watching the news at my parents house. News talking about how British whites are a minority in London for the first time. My father decides to make the lovely comment "What a shame. Wogs, wogs and more wogs." followed by me being all angry at him. Then the gay marriage issue comes up and yet again another comment "How disgusting". I finally have enough and shout "No-one wants to hear your disgusting opinions" and then I get a barrage of how he has freedom of speech etc

Some of his "opinions" make me want to cry (especially as a bisexual). AIBU to think he should SHUT UP and keep his nasty racist and homophobic opinions to himself, especially as they are HURTING PEOPLE

HumphreyCobbler Tue 11-Dec-12 17:28:17

I am sorry you have to sit and listen to that. Yes, he should shut up.

Pandemoniaa Tue 11-Dec-12 17:28:57

Well of course he should keep these wholly unacceptable views to himself. But people like him don't, do they? What would happen if you challenged him?

DeepPurple Tue 11-Dec-12 17:29:34

Is your dad my fil?

ihaverunoutofnicknameideas Tue 11-Dec-12 17:30:18

No YANBU to think he should keep his opinions to himself, but if this behaviour and these type of outdated and offensive comments are typical of him, then sadly you are probably being U to expect that he will ever change.

Narked Tue 11-Dec-12 17:31:36

Do you live with him?

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 11-Dec-12 17:32:24

Sorry, Balthier that's rotten. Mt DF used to make what he thought were funny comments. He has got better over the years, partly through me introducing him to my gay, Muslim, Black, lesbian friends (not all the same person). Now, when he says something, I can just say, "you know you're talking about Fred/Jeff/Aisha right now" quietly. It's worked, a little.

Spuddybean Tue 11-Dec-12 17:33:34

yanbu. My dad told me last night that if i was his wife and i served him a vegetable curry for dinner i'd 'get a smack in the mouth'...nice.

It's horrid when your parents say dreadful things.

Mutt Tue 11-Dec-12 17:33:38

He is entitled to his bigotted, small-minded, offensive opinions. And in his own home I guess he is entitled to voice them.

But you don't have to listen to and accept them, or be upset by them. You have tried challenging him but it apparently makes no difference.

So just leave. Tell him you find his beliefs "nasty, racist, homophobic" and unacceptable. And leave.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 17:33:44

HE is entitled to his opinion as much as you are. How would you feel if someone told you to shut up because they didn't like your opinions?

Ah, Balthier, sorry you have to deal with this.

My liberal, lovely, socialist, well-travelled almost-80 year old father is turning into an old bigot in his old age sad. He is not demented or anything, has all his marbles, but his opinions.... He has many friends from all walks of life, white/black/inbetween, heterosexual/proud gay and 'camp' and gay/not camp IYKWIM and all those he knows are of course 'different' and tolerated.
But all the other forriners and horrible queers and women who want to be bishops should not be allowed shock.
My heart breaks whenever he comes out with this racist/sexist/homophobic crap because I can remember him as a tolerant, accepting person.

Yes, your dad should shut up and voice his opinion to people who want to hear them.

Does he know about your sexual orientation?

BerryChristmas Tue 11-Dec-12 17:35:10

It's his opinion and he has a right to say it. If you don't like it, then leave.

Just don't ever come to the Westcountry!

cantspel Tue 11-Dec-12 17:35:19

He is voicing his opinion in his house. They might not be nice but no one is forcing you to stay and listen to them.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 11-Dec-12 17:38:32

Did people miss that the OP is bisexual? That does make his right to call gay people 'disgusting' in his own home different. He is calling his daughter 'disgusting' by extension. Not OK in my book.

Pipsytwos Tue 11-Dec-12 17:39:36

That's a shame, my Grand parents are like that. I learnt at a young age that there is no point arguing with them, it doesn't change their opinions and just makes it go on for longer. Now I just sit there and cringe. sad

BalthierBunansa Tue 11-Dec-12 17:39:55

PacificDogwood He does know yes, though I do think he is doing his best to try and forget

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Tue 11-Dec-12 17:40:17

When he starts, tell him he's revolting, get up, walk out and go home.

He may have the right to spout that crap, I suppose, but there's no reason you have to remain in his home when he does.

Or visit him again if he does.

Chubfuddler Tue 11-Dec-12 17:41:46

The first thing my mother said to me today, when we met up at my sons school for his nativity, was that white British are now an ethnic minority in London.

She never used to be a racist bigot, I'm sure of it.

Pandemoniaa Tue 11-Dec-12 17:41:50

I don't hold with this rubbish about anyone having the right to spout bigoted, discriminatory hatred just because they are doing so at home. It needs challenging.

Narked Tue 11-Dec-12 17:42:14

I would tell him, just once, that you find his opinions offensive and then in the future leave the room (and the house if necessary) when he starts off.

richardsimmonstanktop Tue 11-Dec-12 17:42:55

I hate it when people use the 'free speech' excuse to spout racist/homophobic drivel. Free speech means (broadly) that you can't be arrested/persecuted for voicing your opinions. It doesn't mean that we all have an excuse to go round saying vile hateful things.

Narked Tue 11-Dec-12 17:43:27

And I'm sure not everyone in the West Country is an ignorant bigot.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 17:44:28

Pamdemoniaa, why, and by who? Don't you find it a scary concept that people shouldn't be able to say what they want, even at home?

Anniegetyourgun Tue 11-Dec-12 17:44:50

XH used to come out with crap like that. It was one of the things I cited as unreasonable behaviour on the divorce petition.

BerryChristmas Tue 11-Dec-12 17:44:54

Chubfuddler - your mother was stating a fact, not an opinion. When did it become wrong to state a fact?

Chubfuddler Tue 11-Dec-12 17:46:20

Believe me, the way she said it her feelings were quite clear. first thing she said. Not hello dgd who was with me, not ooh awful weather, but that. We don't even live in London.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 17:47:04

Is she wrong for thinking that it is a bad thing?

Chubfuddler Tue 11-Dec-12 17:48:38

Yes I think she is. It is a completely morally neutral sociology-economic phenomenon that the make up of populations change.

richardsimmonstanktop Tue 11-Dec-12 17:50:22

"Don't you find it a scary concept that people shouldn't be able to say what they want, even at home?"

So if you came to my home I could call you all the vile names under the sun and that would be ok?

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 17:50:25

Did you tell her that?

OwlLady Tue 11-Dec-12 17:50:44

You shoudl feel proud of yourself that despite being brought up with those attitudes you are a normal, rounded person with good moral values smile

Chubfuddler Tue 11-Dec-12 17:50:56

Of course I did.

JoanByers Tue 11-Dec-12 17:52:24

OTOH, it is reasonable to note that there are too many people in and around London, and we are opening the door to even more, to go with the millions that have arrived in the last decade.

I also feel that perhaps if you have lived in, say, the East End for 50 years that it is reasonable to lament change of whatever kind. Though if you live in say Scunthorpe, probably less pertinent.

Cozy9 Tue 11-Dec-12 17:53:05

"So if you came to my home I could call you all the vile names under the sun and that would be ok? "

I wouldn't like it but that still doesn't make it a crime, does it? Censoring people and making people self-censor themselves is a bad thing and does not make anyone change their attitudes. The OP should explain to her parents why increased diversity is a good thing and how it has benefitted them and the country as a whole. Not just tell them to "SHUT UP".

richardsimmonstanktop Tue 11-Dec-12 17:56:14

No of course it's not a crime to say what you like. But this isn't about anyone coming to arrest the OP's dad for censorship. It's about general decency - why would you say something that you knew upset your daughter enough to make her want to cry?

Btw, the OP didn't say 'shut up'.

BalthierBunansa Tue 11-Dec-12 17:57:27

Cozy9 Yes, explaining would be a good idea, but I was just so angry! I will next time the subject comes up (which it inevitably will)

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 11-Dec-12 17:57:58

JoanByers I'll tell my Polish grandfather you think he and his Polish family should go home. Oh no, sorry I can't. He died over Europe fighting the Nazis. Less not forget the hard work, sacrifice and love that immigrants have brought to this country. I'm leaving the thread now.

PetiteRaleuse Tue 11-Dec-12 18:01:37

You should tell him how his freedom of speech is guaranteed by the European Convention on Human Rights. I'd bet he'd love that wink

fatfingers Tue 11-Dec-12 18:02:29

Given that he doesn't mind offending you with his opinions (which he has every right to voice btw), you shouldn't just wish he would STFU - you should have told him to STFU. After all, freedom of speech works both ways.

grimbletart Tue 11-Dec-12 18:04:09

I'm an older person. I do not share the views that OP is talking about and challenge them when I hear them.

But I wonder how much younger people (by that I mean under 55 or so) understand how much to elderly people their country has changed. Or rather how the pace of change means that for many of them they do not recognise the country they now live in. This is a neutral opinion (I am not saying it has changed for the better or worse) just that there have been enormous changes and as people reach their 60s and beyond it can be hard to adapt and the pace of change can frighten them. And for many, whatever character you had as a young person becomes more firmly fixed as you age.

Having said that, many of us over 60s have adapted. But not everyone.

olgaga Tue 11-Dec-12 18:07:50

Don't know if this is going to help but every elderly relative I have ever had would come out with similar comments! Some of them always had those attitudes, others seemed to morph into Alf Garnett as they got older.

Age is no excuse for it, but it's unlikely you're going to change views which have taken shape over decades. Plenty of people of all races get angry and despairing at changes in communities they have lived in for many years.

Plus as an adult you do get to choose who you spend your time with - in your own home!

JoanByers Tue 11-Dec-12 18:14:01

I think what now MrsTerrys?

Every country on earth has control on immigration, including the UK.

It's really stupid to say 'go home' to someone who is already here. Immigration control is something you do BEFORE three million arrive in a decade. Not afterwards. Nobody was consulted on this massive social change.

There was a referendum in 1975, but it certainly didn't involve immigration from low-income countries in Eastern Europe.

There are benefits of course to immigration from Eastern Europe. Wealthy home owners find it cheaper to get builders, gardeners and so on.

Unfortunately the existing builders, gardeners, and other low-paid/manual workers find lower wages and less employment.

There are also benefits for the wealthy in that their house prices go up, because more people, more immigrants means more demand for housing.

But again, the low-paid, the poor, who do not own housing, find it prohibitively expensive to buy and rent accommodation because of this same pressure.

Chubfuddler Tue 11-Dec-12 18:14:04

I take that point gimble but the world and this country have changed massively in my lifetime, and I'm only in my 30s.

mantlepiece Tue 11-Dec-12 18:29:44

There would have been an even bigger percentage in the south east if not for a policy to ship ethnic minorities to the north around the time of the Gulf War.

We have a very low percentage in the North East and there was chaos when this happened. The local authority housed the Shiites and Sunnis in the same area... boom! I think a lot of them fled to friendlier parts of the country.

Maybe the South East has more experience in dealing with asylum seekers and has the relevant agencies in place, so they head there. Certainly very few end up in the north.

The only constant in life is change though, isn't it? So we might as well make our peace with it grin.

I don't see how the argument that 'things have always been like this and now they are not' counts as a valid complaint. Yes, the rate of change can be frightening (I remember by late great-gran being absolutely terrified of the telephone, or rather not answering the ringing telephone - I think t'interweb would just make her head explode if she were still around) and seem threatening.

I don't feel that I have the right to anything just because I happen to be caucasion of skin colour. Or from a 'traditional' EU country (some Europeans are more equal than other Europeans).

Yes, anybody can express whatever views at home, but that does not mean they have to remain unchallenged. In fact they ought to be challenged - hard as that sometimes may be.

LRDtheFeministDude Tue 11-Dec-12 19:24:25

I think he's entitled to express his views, but the OP is entitled to say how she feels about them. And he ought to realize that if he keeps on expressing those views, he may see a whole lot less of her!

HullyEastergully Tue 11-Dec-12 19:25:40

oh just kill him and have done

Softlysoftly Tue 11-Dec-12 19:29:24

Oh thats why my Facebook finger is all ranty this evening, thanks for clearing it up.

I havent seen the news have only had to bollock otherwise sane people for their "wunder how mny imigrants r in x town Lolz, less houses for us innit".

Shame you can't have a RL delete button op.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 20:18:05

I hate it when people use the 'free speech' excuse to spout racist/homophobic drivel. Free speech means (broadly) that you can't be arrested/persecuted for voicing your opinions. It doesn't mean that we all have an excuse to go round saying vile hateful things.

Yes, that^ or if it does it grants you the right to call you dad a cunt.

great name btw!

ll31 Tue 11-Dec-12 20:44:41

think he's the right to express his opinions - also you've right to disagree.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 21:01:38

No matter who is hurt by it eh? 1131?

PessaryPam Tue 11-Dec-12 22:39:29

It was in his own house Doingit, what are you proposing she do about it? Shoot him?

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 23:19:39

Well the title says should she she tell him to shut the fuck up... So probably that confused

if he doesn't like it he can ask her to leave and she will be better off.

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Tue 11-Dec-12 23:20:27

Also why wold her options be

1. tell him to STFU


2. shoot him?

Honestly MN is being invaded by the daily mail

deleted203 Wed 12-Dec-12 02:49:10

You are not being unreasonable to WISH he would shut up- but you are being pretty unreasonable to EXPECT him to. People don't change. If he is racist and homophobic he has presumably made comments like this throughout your life and will not change now. I agree that they are unpleasant, but getting enraged by an older person commenting, 'how disgusting' about gay marriage is a bit pointless. It is a fairly controversial issue - you can't demand that everyone agrees with your own views. Your father is entitled to express his opinion about news items in his own home, whether you agree with these views or not. And yes, his language leaves a lot to be desired but I'm not sure what you think you can achieve with him. Is he aware that you are bisexual and that this is personally hurtful to you?

Kytti Wed 12-Dec-12 02:53:05

YABU - it's his house, it's not like he's trying to incite a mob in the streets. They're not very nice comments, but he is entitled to his opinion, especially in his own house.

PessaryPam Wed 12-Dec-12 07:04:24

No Doingit, you were replying to
1l31 think he's the right to express his opinions - also you've right to disagree.


DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta No matter who is hurt by it eh? 1131?

So the shoot him question was perfectly valid and not at all daily mail. Did you mean to be so condescending?

ll31 Wed 12-Dec-12 07:14:17

Doingit -yes, no matter who is hurt. I'm not saying that making those comments is nice or acceptable thing to do but people have right to their owm opinions. Or do you think people should only express opinions you agree with?
some people hold hugely offensive opinions, but why is their right to hold them less valid than yours?

PessaryPam Wed 12-Dec-12 07:40:29

II31 there are some people who have a natural authoritarian instinct who seek to control every aspect of other people. There is no reasoning with them.

ll31 Wed 12-Dec-12 07:46:58

I agree, am related to some! But still doesn't't justify refusing to let them express their unpleasant opinions I think

PessaryPam Wed 12-Dec-12 08:04:14

I quite agree.

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 09:50:40

The fact that something is legal does not make it morally right. And it certainly doesn't make it good manners.

Most things to do with manners are not prescribed in law: they are governed by social conventions. We still expect people to have them. Telling people that they are ugly, that their children are thick, that their disabled child shouldn't have been born- no law against any of those.

But you can expect to get into trouble with other people if you indulge.

The only sensible response for the OP would be to say calmly: "I am sorry but I cannot stay and listen to this hurtful nonsense" and walk out.

If he has a right to spout his opinions (which is debatable), he certainly doesn't have the right to an audience. No law can enforce that.

We had some pretty miserable times with an elderly relative who spouted oldfashioned racist ideas about my adopted db. Imo the correct response would be for my father (as the closest relative) to have said calmly "yes, you are entitled to your opinions, but I am afraid if you insist on voicing them, we will not visit you or invite you."

SugaricePlumFairy Wed 12-Dec-12 09:56:54

I have this with my Dad, he uses the P* word instead of Pakistani which drives me insane.

He had it with both barrels off me when he said it in front of the boys last week and got agitated, mine are teens and they even look at him with that shock face when he starts!

You'd think he'd get the message by now!

ByTheWay1 Wed 12-Dec-12 10:05:37

He's in his house voicing an opinion.... you can either let him know how you feel or leave.... personally I would just tell him he was "an old fashioned old duffer, people don't say that stuff out loud any more"

some folks think it - I know my grandad was one, but he "learned" not to say it.... which to be honest I found a bit sad.....

If anyone told me to "shut the F* up" in my own home they would be asked to leave and not invited back as I would find that extremely impolite and rude.....

cory Wed 12-Dec-12 10:10:47

ByTheWay1 Wed 12-Dec-12 10:05:37
"He's in his house voicing an opinion.... you can either let him know how you feel or leave.... personally I would just tell him he was "an old fashioned old duffer, people don't say that stuff out loud any more" "

Would that really be your response if you were bisexual and your own father who knew this kept treating you to homophobic rants?

olgaga Wed 12-Dec-12 10:33:59

Would that really be your response if you were bisexual and your own father who knew this kept treating you to homophobic rants?

The point is, it won't matter how the OP responds. He's obviously a rude, unpleasant and inconsiderate old fool, but he isn't going to change.

No doubt he feels that his views are as valid as hers - but if she doesn't want to hear them (understandable) then she needs to stop visiting.

As Mutt said, further upthread:

So just leave. Tell him you find his beliefs "nasty, racist, homophobic" and unacceptable. And leave.

Startail Wed 12-Dec-12 11:39:54

grimbletart has it exactly, as people age they hark more and more back to the world of their youth.

For people in their 80's that's still before and during WW2.

For worse and better a lot has changed.

The loss of decent industrial jobs and prospects for many men to find a way to support their families saddens my engineer father terribly.

The move to tolerance and women's rights is clearly an improvement and having two DDs my dad does his best with this, but he doesn't always succeed.

But what ever Londoners think, for many of us in rural, dare I say West country, areas Ethnic minorities are rare and keeping up with this weeks PC language is impossible.

Sadly even young adults and school children can behave badly. DDs friend and her sister were the only non whites at their primary. Even now in her large secondary there are very few. Nasty things have been saidangryangryangry, she is the nicest child imaginable.

Sadly if young people who should no better don't, I think the OPs father may be beyond hope.

However, that doesn't mean she shouldn't tell him to fucking shut up, it just means he won't hear hersad

Startail Wed 12-Dec-12 12:28:58

Know betterhmm

DoingitOnTheRoofTopWithSanta Wed 12-Dec-12 15:43:10

some folks think it - I know my grandad was one, but he "learned" not to say it.... which to be honest I found a bit sad.....

In what way is it sad? That he has learned not to offend people?

Surprised some people are saying opinions which are racist/sexist/homophobic are just as valid as others and we should calmly listen to people talk a load of shit.

NO we have to make a strand when someone is saying something that is wrong. When you just stand by and don't speak up you are enabling it you are allowing people to be hurt. You become a part of the problem.

ByTheWay1 Thu 13-Dec-12 09:57:44

I think it is sad that he feels he has to hide his opinions, that people in this country are becoming so "homogenised" that we have one view allowed and one view only - everyone who holds a controversial view must be pilloried and criminalised and made to feel or say sorry for holding an opinion which is not supportive to whichever oppressed minority is in vogue at the moment.

My grandad holds some strong views on employment for women for instance - (part time work has led to the devaluation of some roles and the low pay and poor working conditions experienced by many in this country, acceptance of these roles initially for convenience, increasingly out of need has led to multinational companies using them more and more to avoid paying into the pension/tax/NI pot etc etc.... ).

His arguments get lost in the general outrage of "you are wrong/sexist/misogynistic/blah..blah..blah..." when some of his arguments and opinions on the matter are bloomin valid - and I speak as a woman who works part time...

YouCanBe Thu 13-Dec-12 10:03:33

Tell him you don't want to listen to that sort of talk, and leave.

merlottits Thu 13-Dec-12 10:23:05

I do believe if you feel strongly enough you can make these old bigots either shut-up or reconsider their opinions.

My father is as described, racist, homophobic - think Nick Griffin's eccentric uncle.

Once I got to about 22 I just wouldn't listen. I would walk out the door. In the middle of a meal once. Then when I had children it became a bargaining chip. You EVER discuss those evil, pathetic views you will never see your grandchildren. It worked. My courage gave my 2 younger siblings courage and we have a no bigoted opinions policy in our family smile

My sister has even married a black man and my father has NEVER in my earshot made one negative comment. Because I would go. And he knows it.

ByTheWay1 Thu 13-Dec-12 10:41:45

"we have a no bigoted opinions policy in our family"

just a lack of tolerance of others' viewpoints, and a willingness to use access to your children to blackmail your own father into keeping quiet.

"Think as I do, or keep quiet about it"

merlottits Thu 13-Dec-12 12:36:18

bytheway1 that's correct! The more people that do this the better the planet.

Or should my children be raised listening to conversations about 'dirty faggots/queers' 'robbing bastard immigrants' and 'smelly pakis'?
How their lives will be ruined by 'turban-wearing terrorists' (I particularly like this one as it's factually incorrect and racist!)?

People with those opinions don't deserve access to my children.

SantasBigBaubles Thu 13-Dec-12 13:57:45

My sister has even married a black man and my father has NEVER in my earshot made one negative comment. Because I would go. And he knows it.

merlot and clearly you are the intolerant one for not letting your father spew hate. I guess your BIL is also an intolerant bastard for not wanting to listen to racist bullshit. <sigh>

BTW if your dad came to my house and I called him a stupid fucking cunt. You wouldn't get upset? You'd say ah well, it's only her opinion and she's welcome to it?

ByTheWay1 Thu 13-Dec-12 19:48:26

I would get upset, but it would ALSO just be your opinion and you would be welcome to it.

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