to feel even less sympathy for the Australian DJs after watching their interview?

(247 Posts)
miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 16:15:56

Especially the guy.

The woman said she hopes the public respect the privacy of the nurses family.

Shame she didn't show the same respect of Kate's privacy.

scarletforyaOfficialXmasGRINCH Mon 10-Dec-12 16:19:49

Linky?

laptopdancer Mon 10-Dec-12 16:22:19

I found it uncomfortable viewing as he did seem a tad insincere. He avoided questions and I got the impression the two were very much "it wasnt us". A bit like "we were just following orders".

And then there was the bit where Tracey Grimshaw asked them if they had felt like they had a massive coup after it was first aired and they he said NO. Er, did anyone else see his tweets and facebook comments at the time???

And the whole "our funny accents" thing ...hmmm

diddl Mon 10-Dec-12 16:22:55

It did all seem very staged to me.

And all about how they´re feeling.

And excuses.

myBOYSareBONKERS Mon 10-Dec-12 16:24:06

I didn't feel he came across as very remorseful. She appeared more upset but so would I be if my career was in tatters.

I think they were out of order in what they did (ie hoax call) but I do not hold them responsible for the nurses death. That was a decision that she took upon her self and ultimately she did nothing wrong as she only transferred the call to the ward.

I also suspect that even though the hospital said they were supporting their employees they were more concerned with the public image and loosing money - or is that my warped view of management shining through there!

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 16:24:15
millie30 Mon 10-Dec-12 16:28:37

I'm quite an emotional person, I cry very easily and I'd felt sad at reading what a state they were both supposedly in. But when I saw their interview it just left me cold. Seemed scripted and insincere, especially from the man.

I thought he came across terribly to be honest , she seemed to be in bits, he seemed awful.

laptopdancer Mon 10-Dec-12 16:29:43

I think the "pleading dumb" didnt pay off for them tbh

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 16:30:11

I'm glad they have finally spoken out.

But yes he came across terribly. Very much trying to shift blame.

Personally I don't think they should have been giving interview until the police had spoken to them.

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 16:32:51

www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VHmZNdrKgU

Another interview (haven't watched this one yet)

Also sorry I'm not sure how to convert links on here yet.

I've only seen snippets so far, didn't really want to watch it at all. She at least has to grace to appear upset and I think it's a little unfair to say it's because her career is in tatters. She does seem genuinely shaken by what's happened. He comes across as the arrogant tosser that all the photos and everything i read about him previously led me to believe he was.

But neither of them were falling over themselves to accept any responsibility. I don't want to see them tried for manslaughter or nonsense like that but they have to take a share of the blame.

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 16:34:08

Whistlingwaves that is a good point.

But I think if they hadn't spoken out soon the situation would have been made worse (if thats even possible)

soundevenfruity Mon 10-Dec-12 16:34:42

I just don't understand why all the media storm is about the DJs. The nurse commited suicide when she was due to have a meeting with her management about her mishap. The hospital was super quick to put the blame on the DJs without saying anything about their part. Her immediate family lives in Bristol, her mother is very ill in India. It looks like they really needed the money and I just don't think that well supported staff in a culture of admitting and rectifying mistakes would take their life just before having an official meeting about it.

carocaro Mon 10-Dec-12 16:34:47

I feel less sorry too, theses people need to take responsibility for their actions, of course they did not want what happened to happen, but they did not think AT ALL beyond ratings and getting themselves known more. Pranks are designed to hurt and humiliate, they are not funny, why does no one get that? If no one takes any responsibility for their own actions we could all just do what we like and to hell with it.

Not in the same league at all, but I was once phoned by a radio DJ who asked me out on behalf of a secondary school classmate (segment on Piccadilly radio in the 80's) I said no and the DJ called me boring and snooty. School was unbearable for weeks, people laughing, pointing and shouting things, one day I left school and walked home in tears. I felt so humiliated and exposed, total laughing stock.

So times that by several trillion on a global scale to even begin to think how that nurse was feeling. 'Previous fragile mental state' is utter tripe. It would have shaken most if us.

I posted a calm response on a fb page over this stating while they couldn't know it would result in her death they could have reasonably known it would affect the nurses careers while.

I received a LOT of abuse towards English people and basically told us whinging poms just didnt like the Aussies getting one other them and we should toughen the fuck up hmm

soundevenfruity Mon 10-Dec-12 16:37:52

carocaro, excactly my point: the DJ was the catalyst but your school teachers obviously didn't handle it terribly well.

I did feel their insistence that the accents were really daft and with the dogs etc they didn't think anyone would fool for it was disingenuous - it shifted the onus back on the nurse for fooling for it.
If DS tried an apology like that I would make him do it again.

They seemed very sorry for themselves , full of self pity .
Not much remorse shown .

carocaro Mon 10-Dec-12 16:45:41

The school were great, held an assembly, suspended some pupils, but it was out of the schools control, week night radio. School could hardly stop the jibes as I walked to school. My parents wrote to the radio station and never got a response eg: they could not care less. I even got pranks calls from pupils at home, my parents had to change number and go x directory.

specialsubject Mon 10-Dec-12 16:46:35

they came across like the school bullies being finally told off and getting a taste of what it is like to be on the receiving end. That's what 'prankers' are.

They obtained details about a patient's medical condition by deception.

I also agree that they could not have expected what happened, and should not be tried/sued/whatever, but the whole thing needs to stop. I believe we outgrew Beadle-type nonsense some years ago (at least I hope so) and it is time everyone else did.

TheCrackFox Mon 10-Dec-12 16:49:35

They really should have just issued a heartfelt apology and a request that the nurse's family's privacy is respected.

HoolioHallio Mon 10-Dec-12 16:52:18

Pathetic 'show.' Victim blaming and their endless shifting of responsibility away from themselves made me feel sick. WHEN will all of those who played a part in this tragedy, beginning with those DJs and ending with the 'nobodies' of internet forums just bloody well say sorry ? And mean it ? sad

Solola Mon 10-Dec-12 16:56:05

They clearly felt most sorry for themselves!

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 16:57:53

I want to know who these 100 of people who made this call were that they keep mentioning.

And apparently the joke was 100% on them and their 'silly accents' hmm

KatherinaMinola Mon 10-Dec-12 16:59:46

soundevenfruity I think your post of 16:34 is spot on, especially the last sentence. My first thought on reading about the case was that the hospital were protesting too much and pre-empting any criticism with their line about 'supporting their staff'. Something not right there.

(I still think the DJs behaved twattishly though).

diddl Mon 10-Dec-12 17:01:27

Yes-they never meant it to go that far-how far is acceptable, then??

Sallyingforth Mon 10-Dec-12 17:06:22

I'm glad to see that here at least there are people who weren't taken in by this performance, even though it was given by professionals who are used to putting on a public face. Naturally they were trying to gain sympathy in the hope that they won't have to suffer any further penalty.

I also think it strange that the management claimed they had tried many times to contact the nurses to get permission to broadcast the recording. By saying this they are admitting that they should have got that permission - but they went ahead anyway.

OnwardBound Mon 10-Dec-12 17:16:52

Have just watched the clip.

I think he did come across badly [looked arrogant and defensive] and they both seemed focused on alleviating any blame on them by continually stating they didn't expect it to go so far, prank calls are done every day, no-one could have anticipated this tragedy...

That said however I think their emotion was real and that they truly felt gutted and shocked - probably due to both their prank being the catalyst event which led someone to commit suicide and also the implosion of their careers...

However I also had the sense that they had been briefed and probably had a team of lawyers and producers breathing down their necks.

Tracey Grimshaw kept asking about filters and process and the pair kept stating their ignorance and obfuscating.

I felt this was disingenuous as it seems unbelievable that the pair would record something to go to air but truly had no idea, apparently, of who made the decisions re editing, etc.

I do though feel sorry for them because I think they are two young and generally glib radio DJs who are used to presenting a light entertainment yoof orientated show and have probably never thought through the consequences of their actions and behaviour before.

They have a producer and legal team to do this for them [no need to bother their pretty little heads with it].

The producer and legal team however do not have to face the media shitstorm while these two do.

It must be a very hard lesson to learn in accountability and humility in front of a hostile press and social media.

Before someone jumps in and says it, I do think you can have some sympathy for the DJs whilst also feeling desperately sorry for the poor nurse and her family.

One does not cancel out the other.

Tailtwister Mon 10-Dec-12 17:17:18

It was a very odd interview and imo did them no favours. I'm not sure if they were insincere or if they were very limited in what they had been told they could say. It seemed to me that it was very scripted and when the interviewer's questions weren't answered, she didn't push them at all.

OnwardBound Mon 10-Dec-12 17:27:27

And yes, I agree with what others have said here.

I think King Edward VII should also be answering some questions re their behaviour and accountability in this tragedy.

I used to work as a nurse in London and there was one thing I learned which was that nurses are not supported by management, either as a whistleblower or if they have made an error themselves.

Have seen it happen countless times [one of the reasons I left nursing tbh]

Nurses are treated with great disrespect generally in UK.

They are not treated this way in Aus [where I originally trained] so may be that the DJs could not have anticipated a staff member potentially feeling so blamed and shamed that she would feel her only recourse was suicide.

I am not saying that to excuse them. But I just feel it might be somewhat relevant.

laptopdancer Mon 10-Dec-12 17:28:31

I dont know.
I saw someone hung out to dry dreadfully while working in Australia.

That male DJ was dripping in smarm.

The female DJ looked upset but I reckon it's more for the fact that she is internationally detested and probably going to have no career left at the end of this than because she is remorseful.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Mon 10-Dec-12 17:29:22

He came across as arrogant and she Hedge came across as though people would feel sorry for her.
Badly staged. Imo they spent the entire time say "we are so sorry but its not our fault because....'

Which is a crap apology.

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 17:32:38

I'm getting sick of UK bashing to be honest OnwardBound

Whether the call was made from Australia, France, Russia to me it doesn't make a difference.

LikeAVirginMary Mon 10-Dec-12 17:38:14

I agree that he came across as totally insincere and was constantly aware of "how he'd look". He seems to be very, very full of himself.

I thought she came across reasonably well and quite contrite.

Suspect the guy will go out for a beer in a few months with his mates and have a bit of a laugh about the whole thing - going on about whinging poms etc.

Osmiornica Mon 10-Dec-12 17:45:25

Have they even said 'sorry, we shouldn't have done it' yet?

I feel no pity for them, they feel enough pity for themselves.

They did nothing but talk about how they feel, how it wasn't their fault, and how everyone else was doing it. They only threw in the odd sypathetic comment when pushed about it.

AuntieMaggie Mon 10-Dec-12 17:49:02

Everything I've seen from them and the radio station since the prank has been about them making excuses so no I don't have any sympathy for them as they have not once shown any real understanding of the line they crossed with this prank even before the sad death of the nurse.

Pretending to be someone else to get confidential medical information about someone is not a joke its deception and they should be punished for it - why are they any better than some of the reporters involved in the leveson enquiry that have done similar things?

No they didn't directly cause the death of the nurse involved.

My sympathy is with Kate, who now has to live with the knowledge that people she has never met have personal information about her and her treatment and the family of the nurse.

LaCiccolina Mon 10-Dec-12 17:52:00

Prankers? A right couple of (cockney rhyming) prankers after watching the interview shown on sky news.

It wasn't them. They weren't proud of actions, didn't expect to get thru, management aired it.... All very distasteful.

Had they started with "we are so sorry! It's dreadful here's how it happened..." I'd have gone for it. No remorse at all. Apart from self pity. Doesn't count.

they came across like the school bullies being finally told off and getting a taste of what it is like to be on the receiving end. That's what 'prankers' are.

Yes, absolutely. It reminds me of the sickening farces we sat through with my DS, with the teachers at school insisting that his sniggering tormentors sitting across the table all had "issues", that their bullying of DS was the result of 'low self esteem' and amounted to no more than 'attention seeking behaviour'.

Was it FUCK. They weren't victims, they were confident alpha-males with grossly over-inflated senses of entitlement, not weird rejects whom nobody liked. Their popularity amongst their peers made them feel invincible. They behaved the way they did to get a LAUGH from the other kids, because it boosted their sense of importance and influence.

Just like these moronic bits of garbage in Australia. Why on EARTH should anyone feel the slightest bit sorry for them? They are adults FFS! Have we internalised this culture of cruelty to such an extent that repeated public humiliation of innocent individuals is "just a prank" to most people? A sick pregnant women and the busy hospital staff caring for her were just treated as THINGS, as OBJECTS for our amusement by these unspeakable pricks. Just a fucking prank indeed angry.

OnwardBound Mon 10-Dec-12 18:10:02

miami how is it UK bashing to be talking of my experience of nursing in the UK?

I have heard UK nurses says the same thing.

Why do you think you have a nursing shortage here?

I am not saying that Australia is utopia in regard to this issue but I didn't feel as unsupported and disrespected as a professional person there.

You know what, not all Australians are UK bashing.

Some of us have actually chosen to live here permanently and quite enjoy many aspects of life here.

I am sorry that this tragic story seems to have reignited some Australia/UK rivalry and antipathy - on both sides seemingly.

NetworkGuy Mon 10-Dec-12 18:10:42

"I don't want to see them tried for manslaughter or nonsense like that but they have to take a share of the blame." - BBC The World at One (radio 4) spoke to the editor of "The Punch" an online paper, who said she thought the interview with the DJs (presumably on local TV) was unsatisfactory.

She thought they had been fed some phrases and were confused about what to say and were still 'shell shocked' and like 'deer in the headlights'. Also that the male DJ seemed to want to divert it - 'we did the interview but it went to other departments'.

Muminwestlondon Mon 10-Dec-12 18:14:26

I came to a similar conclusion to many posters after having first viewed their interview this morning. To me they came across as nasty pathetic bullies, and they were very careful not to accept responsibility for their actions. If you look at the bloke's eyes you can tell he is not sorry at all. I felt the women was slightly more sincere, but as others have pointed out, probably more worried about her job than contrite for what she did.

While saying that, however stupid they are they could not foresee the consequences of a suicide. In my opinion, if the hospital had properly briefed staff about how to deal with calls to celeb/royal visitors this whole awful episode could have been avoided. Presumably the hospital could also have provided more support to the nurses affected in the hours or days after the story broke.

cornishsue Mon 10-Dec-12 18:15:58

I thought it was all about "me, me, me" and a carefully scripted interview deisgned to make us feel sorry for them. Their only real concern was for themselves and their own lives and (despite appearances to try to convince us otherwise) had no real sense of guilt or wanting to take responsibility for their actions. Before the interview I felt somewhat sorry for them but the interview convinced me they were 100% selfish individuals with no empathy at all!

"me, me, me, me, me, me, me"....horrible people!

MoreBeta Mon 10-Dec-12 18:20:12

I watched the 'interview' for about 30 seconds this morning and turned it off in disgust.

Viviennemary Mon 10-Dec-12 18:22:30

I did feel sorry for them before the interview. But they seemed to think it was nothing to do with them that the decision was made to put it on air. And they were just 'following orders'. I don't hold them responsible for the nurse's death.

MoreBeta Mon 10-Dec-12 18:22:42

I don't think it has ignited Australian - UK antipathy either.

hattymattie Mon 10-Dec-12 18:26:05

I think I was bits of two different interviews - in the one the guy was insincere and in the second he was sobbing away - still felt he didn't quite ring true though. I did feel the woman was more apologetic and upset but agree that there didn't seem to be an acceptance of blame - a stepping up and taking responsibilty which I would have respected more.

GreatUncleEddie Mon 10-Dec-12 18:31:24

They didn't apologise did they, just passed the buck. Kept repeating phrases they had scripted. Nasty.

Wanttowrite Mon 10-Dec-12 18:37:20

LapsedPacifist - could not agree more, pleased to see most people have seen through this fake apology.

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 18:54:07

OnwardBound it is irrelevant what country made the call and what country received the call imo.

You seemed to be justifying their actions because the nurse was from the UK.

There is no animosity from me a UK citizen towards Australian citizens.

FeistyLass Mon 10-Dec-12 19:13:22

I wondered if it played better to their home audience. . .
As someone who has worked in the media and pr for years, I wouldn't have let them do an interview. The initial statement would have included their apology for the 'unforseen outcome'.
They couldn't admit liability in the interview unless they were going to resign as the radio station lawyers would have been quite clear that they couldn't say they were responsible. The interview was more or less what I was expecting hence why I think it's only purpose could have been to win sympathy in Australia. It wasn't ever going to be viewed favourably in the UK when the public repsonse to the 'hoax' has been so negative here.

besmirchedandbewildered Mon 10-Dec-12 19:24:04

I haven't seen the interviews, although I heard a snippet this morning, but I agree with Fairylass. They'll have been told that an apology is an admission of guilt and therefore liability. To avoid risk of being sued, they'll have been told to show contrition without actually apologising.

besmirchedandbewildered Mon 10-Dec-12 19:25:20

Bloody hell, sorry - Feistylass not Fairylass.

FeistyLass Mon 10-Dec-12 19:27:54

Oh, I quite liked being Fairylass grin

Doinmummy Mon 10-Dec-12 19:31:47

I've just seen the interview , uncomfortable viewing. He looked annoyed at having to he there . To keep saying they could not have predicted the outcome is just a cop out .

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Mon 10-Dec-12 19:33:26

watched it. Comes across as a PR saving our arses and the stations arses exercise.

When asked who made the decision they said they didnt know.
bollocks.
the station have clearly told them not to aportion blame and not to answer those questions.

a total pr disaster imo as they appeared very insincere and their apology was inadequate.

2day fm shot themselves in the foot with this.

sue52 Mon 10-Dec-12 19:38:15

They are very young, this will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They might sound glib now but as they age, perhaps have families, what they did will never be far from their minds. My thoughts and sympathies are with the victim's husband and children.

flippinada Mon 10-Dec-12 19:41:56

Fee

Bakingnovice Mon 10-Dec-12 19:47:31

A lot of people have suffered due to this awful episode. People need to forgive, learn the lessons that need to be learnt and hope there are no further casualties. I for one am saddened by the current blame game, hospital to dj to victims state of mind/personal circumstances etc. I know I'm a softie but the female Dj looked devastated.

Shenanagins Mon 10-Dec-12 19:53:26

Agree with feistylass. of course it was heavily scripted and they probably had the fear of god put into them in not admitting liability or any wrongdoing. given this it would be no surprise that it came across badly. they were dammed if they did and dammed if they didn't.

and i don't believe for one minute that no pressure was put on the nurse by the hospital.

aroomofherown Mon 10-Dec-12 19:58:22

He's a shit actor

Bakingnovice Mon 10-Dec-12 19:58:38

Shenanigans I agree. The hospital have not acted brilliantly. We know wills was livid and knowing the nhs senior management must have been seen to be doing something. Just the thought of that poor lady being summoned to a meeting makes me very sad. I had a stressful time at work a few years ago and at times it made me feel very very low.

MamaMary Mon 10-Dec-12 19:59:56

They are clearly both self-obsessed, self-promoting wannabees who were originally clearly delighted at the publicity they had gained for themselves. The woman began her career in reality TV. In photographs, their eyes appear very, very cold to me.

Mind you I haven't heard or watched the interview - couldn't stomach it.

Hobbitation Mon 10-Dec-12 19:59:58

I felt immensely sorry for them from the start. I feel very sorry for everyone closely involved. Yes, it was a stupid thing to do but they didn't set out to humiliate an individual or for anything remotely like this to happen. Also the international media is responsible for playing the phone call over and over and for obsessive round the clock coverage of 'the Royal Baby'. They have had hundreds of death threats, people's finger pointing has been absolutely disgusting. It reminds me of people jeering at the gallows. In fact, it's just the kind of thing that can make someone want to take their own life. More deaths as a result of this prank can hardly be a desirable result.

MagicLlama Mon 10-Dec-12 20:00:43

See I can believe that they didnt expect to get through. That the joke was ringing up, being hung up on and then larking around with crappy british accents and pretend corgis in the background.

I can believe that when the all went through they were shockedand just carried on with it.

I cannot believe that it was aired. Im sure there are rules and regulations about permission before recording people, and I can only assume that the station decided any hassle for not following those was worth the publicity. That decision would not have been the DJs

For that reason, I had some sympathy for them, that a "prank" blew up in their faces and has all gone to pot.

However they seem so "glib" in that interview that I just dont anymore.

SugarPasteSnowflake Mon 10-Dec-12 20:00:59

I think they did a stupid thing.

I don't think it's appropriate to lay all of the blame at their door - the world's media were jumping all over this. Speculating as to what would happen to her, what kind of disciplinary measures would be taken etc.

That kind of pressure on someone who as already fragile, was most likely the catalyst for her suicide. However it doesn't suit the journos to examine their own part in this tragedy- far easier to point the finger and lay the blame wholly at the feet of the DJs.

Hobbitation Mon 10-Dec-12 20:01:22

and i don't believe for one minute that no pressure was put on the nurse by the hospital.

Nor do I. I bet she got hauled in and bollocked, or was about to be. It's just the sort of thing that would go on.

thebody Mon 10-Dec-12 20:01:28

I don't think for a minute that this reaction could have been predicted at all.

In my view this blame mostly lies at the hospital proceedures and staff training..

Let's stop blaming individuals.

MagicLlama Mon 10-Dec-12 20:03:21

Incidentally, I also think that the hospital management could have done more!

MagicLlama Mon 10-Dec-12 20:05:12

I think that I would have more sympathy for them if they seemed to be saying "shit we are sorry for what part we played in this"

However all the, well it wasnt us it was someone else just irritates me

im also in a bad mood about something else which might be playing a part in me being a miserable arse

Doinmummy Mon 10-Dec-12 20:07:14

sue52 they are not ' very young' they are grown adults . There are people far younger than they are making life changing decisions ( nurses doctors) .

AmberLeaf Mon 10-Dec-12 20:20:17

It was stupid but they are not responsible for that woman taking her own life, only she is.

What should they apologise for exactly? their prank or another persons actions?

It's a bit ridiculous.

echt Mon 10-Dec-12 20:24:36

Zilch sympathy for the DJs.

However, my first reaction on hearing of the sad death of Ms Saldanha was to think of the part played by her employers. I'll eat my hat if they rallied round.

A valuable perspective in all this is afforded by this morning's Age, which leads with the jock sobfest, and doesn't even name Ms Saldanha, she's just "a UK nurse" hmm

My mum who's a nurse said she's pretty damn sure the hospital would have had more than a word (what they have said) especially after being embarrassed publically.

MagicLlama Mon 10-Dec-12 20:31:19

Amberleaf

Because I think if you accidentally cause harm or damage to someone you should still apologise. Just because it was an unintentional consequence of your actions, its still a result of your actions.

I believe none of it was intentional. But I dont think it can be denied that the prank has contributed to this, and since the prank was their idea, and their actions, I think they should apologise for the part they played in it.

As should the hospital, the media, all the people who where baying for the nurses sacking, and the idiots at the station who sanctioned playing the recording

Doinmummy Mon 10-Dec-12 20:31:53

I agree whistling . I doubt very much that she was supported .

MagicLlama Mon 10-Dec-12 20:32:14

Well I suppose you should only apologise if you mean it.

Doinmummy Mon 10-Dec-12 20:34:20

Exactly llama . It's common decency to apologise for anything that's an accident .

tattyteddy Mon 10-Dec-12 20:39:11

I agree with Hobbit, the media circus around the "royal pregnancy" was ridiculous. The DJs did something stupid and will have to live with it. We need to be careful that the DJs aren't pushed to taking their own life too!

aladdinsane Mon 10-Dec-12 20:39:29

Bakingnovice, can I just point out this has nothing to do with the nhs it is a private hospital so what you know or not know about senior nhs management is irrelevant here

kim147 Mon 10-Dec-12 20:48:15

There's so many people who should be asking themselves questions.

I can't actually believe nothing was said by management to the 2 nurses. If a nurse had revealed confidential information to a stranger, they would face disciplinary charges.

I don't think trying to contact the hospital to get consent to broadcast, not getting through and then doing it anyway is acceptable.

Gloating about the stunt on the show is not acceptable.

The staff involved could have been sacked. Would the DJs or the station have cared?

The media went over the top on the coverage of the call. Forums and papers called for action.

Lots of people who need to reflect on their actions.

Bakingnovice Mon 10-Dec-12 20:48:26

Alladins - apologies. My mistake for not checking all the facts.

What I was trying to say was that I'm sure the hospital played its part here. As did the media. Hopefully the next 7 months won't be as crazy. There are lessons to be learnt by all parties. The hospital, the media, and perhaps the general public too. Also, I can't believe royal protocols relating to incoming calls were not in place. In any case, I agree with posters above that we need to stop trying to find the most culpable.

Emmielu Mon 10-Dec-12 20:49:52

My favourite moment was when the interviewer said "and are you getting help? counselling etc?" why worry about their state of mind? They're the last people who need sympathy no matter how many tears are shed.

natation Mon 10-Dec-12 20:56:07

When you've done something wrong, you should apologize, plain and simple. My daughter has spent the last couple of months being subjected to name calling by 3 "friends", called dirty, ugly, bitch and useless for scoring the occasional 19 out of 20. I was very upset then to find she had replied by writing the work yuck and liar against 2 photos on one of the girls facebook pages and told her it didn't matter the other girls didn't apologize, it didn't matter what words the other girls had called her, it mattered she was remorseful for rising to their bait and replying with horrible comments. So I told her to put herself in the place of her "friend" when she read those FB comments and she apologized to her. I'm sick of people describing what was done as a stupid prank. Pranks have consequences, pranks have victims, they are carried out by twits. Those twits should apologize, but not before they've thought about why they need to apologize.

Flicktheswitch Mon 10-Dec-12 20:58:50

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kim the hospital have said they WERE due to "have a chat" with her the next day

ZZZenAgain Mon 10-Dec-12 21:13:52

I think the interview was a mistake, it made them appear intensely unlikable; the longer they spoke , the worse it sounded. I expect the intention was to show, as he said that they are real people too but it backfired.

Maybe a line should be drawn under this now. Two dc are mourning a mother, a dh is mourning his wife, a sick elderly mother in India is mourning her dd, a pregnant young woman is upset, hospital staff are shocked and upset and 2 young DJs are at least shocked by what has happened. With all these people come families and friends who are burdened and I think it should not spiral further. IMO it should perhaps be the end of two broadcasting careers but I don't think we need any more publicity on it.

Hansard Mon 10-Dec-12 21:20:50

Feel awful for the family of the nurse who took her own life. No sympathy for the idiots who carried out this sick "joke"!!! However, it was not forseeable that such a tragic outcome would happen. Things like this i.e. fake phone calls have happened before but the guilty parties should be fired.

Monstermama Mon 10-Dec-12 21:41:50

Totally agree with ZZZ.

Don't get me wrong I think its appalling what the idiotic, pathetic DJs did without any regard to the consequences of their actions.

But what about the station bosses? Should they not be held accountable?

My initial thought was to the nurses and how they would probably lose their jobs over the incident, after all, yes they were tricked, but they still breached patient confidentiality. (cant help thinking had a suicide not resulted these nurses would still be in hot water with the hospital).

And am I missing something here? The late nurse simply transferred a call. She did not actually do anything wrong. I imagine she had a lot of other issues going on to even contemplate suicide (an act I personally find extremely selfish). I have immense sympathy for her family, but do not think the djs can be blamed for her taking her own life especially when we do not and will not ever know the full story.

Enough is enough. What do people want to happen now? The djs to commit suicide? Let it rest, I know the interview did not come off too well but I genuinely believe that they are tremendously remorseful for their actions.

chipstick10 Mon 10-Dec-12 21:43:45

I am currently listening to Julia Hartley brewer on sky news. I agree with every word she has said as unpalatable as it is.
Those pranksters didn't kill the poor woman.
The coverage is shocking
The hospital is as much to blame
And this nurse wasn't even named. No one knew who she was. Why did she feel so responsible?

Jinsei Mon 10-Dec-12 21:49:03

I thought the interviews were awful, very staged. However, I do believe that the two DJs are genuinely very upset. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, they surely could never have anticipated this outcome and you'd have to be a pretty heartless person not to be affected by what has happened. They will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.

I agree that there are questions for the hospital to answer. It isn't clear why the staff weren't briefed properly about protocols and security etc. However, I don't think they should necessarily be vilified for what has happened either. We don't know what support they did or didn't offer, and wanting to "have a chat" with the nurse could have been just that.

I guess more will come out at the inquest. sad

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Mon 10-Dec-12 21:55:29

The team behind the dj's are as bad if not worse than them.

The hospital should have had a policy in place but they are nowhere near as bad as the others.

They choose to do the prank, they went ahead with it.

They are wrong.

chipstick10 Mon 10-Dec-12 21:58:22

And I do realise they contacted him, but yawn at Keith Vaz getting his supercilious face in everywhere.

CabbageLeaves Mon 10-Dec-12 22:01:23

What is really frustrating me about this whole affair is that junior staff are in front line roles and facing public comment yet management actions did not prevent events occuring as they did....who and where are those people now?

I work in a district general. A few yrs ago there was a 'minor' event and I received media training. It was arranged rapidly, explicit in content and restrictive. It gave me knowledge and told me how to deflect and deal with the media. It protected me.

WHY did a hospital containing possibly the most reported event this month not have a policy and extra staffing to manage the media? Why was switchboard not screening calls? It's a ridiculous set up.

Lawyers and management knew the consequence of airing that clip - knew that a nurse would lose their job. They chose to air it.

Let them step forward and acknowledge their roles here

miamibeach Mon 10-Dec-12 22:02:21

Yes the hospital is to blame and yes the people behind the dj's are to blame, as is the radio station.

However no matter how big or little the blame is these two people are a part of it.

They stated that the joke was on them. Really?

The royal family are known throughout the world. Surely they should have realised the repercussions of their 'prank', such as someone could lose their job and be hurt and humiliated - all these are predictable.

Jinsei Mon 10-Dec-12 22:04:35

Keith Vaz didn't have much choice on this occasion - the family contacted him, he could hardly have refused. I'm not his biggest fan, but if he has been able to offer the family any support, then I'm glad of that.

I felt so awful for the family. The daughter looked haunted. No kid should have to deal with this.

PlaySchool Mon 10-Dec-12 22:25:42

I think all the press needs to take some blame, including the news programmes that broadcast the nurse's voice on the tape.

MoleyMick Mon 10-Dec-12 22:27:40

Feisty - it didn't play better to me, and I am an Aussie. I had a lot of sympathy for the DJs (I still do a bit) but two minutes into the interview I knew they shouldn't have done it because they came across horribly.
They have put an indefinite ban on radio pranks at the moment, the while Austereo network which is nationwide so that's a good thing IMO.

soundevenfruity Mon 10-Dec-12 22:33:23

If I remember correctly the late nurse put the phone call to the matron (senior nurse) who actually did reveal sensitive information to DJs. For me it's a case of scapegoating gone wrong.

Idocrazythings Mon 10-Dec-12 23:28:42

I don't think they'd be allowed to apologise at this stage- as that would be admitting liability and could cause many problems for them legally (something like that is probably written into the terms of their contracts). I do feel sorry for them, they look so young and naive and are getting all the heat. I would have liked to hear in the interview what sorts of things don't get passed by the "team".

I know what I've written sounds quite cold, and as much as you'd like to hear them profoundly apologise, I don't think their lawyers would let them.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 08:24:06

Because I think if you accidentally cause harm or damage to someone you should still apologise. Just because it was an unintentional consequence of your actions, its still a result of your actions

But that is based on the assumption that the prank is the reason why she killed herself.

No one knows that.

She wasn't even the person that they spoke to, she just transfered the call.

But yet when the story first broke, the media made it look like the nurse that killed herself was the one that spoke on the radio show.

My thoughts are with the ladies family.

blonderthanred Tue 11-Dec-12 13:01:21

I'm pretty sure that any human would feel bad to think they played a part in another's suicide. The whole thing is so desperately sad it isn't as cut and dried as who to 'feel sorry' for.

However I was struck by them saying they thought 100 people would have tried the same thing already. Did they really think a hospital would have nothing better to do than take their 101st prank call then?

The clip should not have been played without the permission of those involved. Especially once they realised that English was not necessarily the nurse's first language so their 'crap accents' would not be picked up. And who is going to question the Queen?

boschy Tue 11-Dec-12 13:19:48

I feel sorriest for the nurse's family, then the other nurse involved, then Catherine and William - what a thing to have hanging over your first pregnancy - and then at the end I do feel a very small bit sorry for the DJs, who, I agree, could not have foreseen all this.

RIP Jacintha.

Tamoo Tue 11-Dec-12 13:26:52

The male DJ was giving off a very, very angry vibe.

A long time ago I remember being told "actions have consequences, think about the consequences before you take action"......

OK, taking your life in response to something like this is an unlikely event but it was entirely possible that someone stood the chance of losing their job because of their prank but that didn't stop them. "We couldn't believe we got through"...so why not leave it at that and say so rather than broadcast the actual recording - perhaps there would have been a "better" and more useful story in saying that they had breached security by getting through?

I don't doubt that they feel remorse and regret, but I'm afraid it's too late now, someone has lost their life, and a family has lost a mother, wife, daughter etc.. They will have to live with what their foolishness has brought about for ever, and I'm afraid that is a consequence of their action that they should have considered.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 14:29:45

How on earth would you ever forsee someone taking their own life as a consequence of this?

Do people really think that is the one and only reason why this lady made the decision to kill herself?

Sallyingforth Tue 11-Dec-12 14:39:09

Amberleaf,
They couldn't foresee what would happen when they set out to play a trick on nurses doing their jobs.
That's exactly why they shouldn't have done it and their management shouldn't have permitted it.
And now the latest disgraceful episode - the station is trying to bribe their advertisers to come back by saying they will donate a couple of weeks' profit to the family.

soundevenfruity Tue 11-Dec-12 14:46:46

AmberLeaf, nobody could've predicted this particular outcome but the fact is that the outcome just as important as your intention. They didn't think they would get far with the phone call but they did and they had a choice to leave it at that. Because potential outcomes could've been:
- the person who didn't realise it was a prank, looses their job, can't pay the mortgage and the family looses the house;
- in Australia nursing jobs, especially low grade, are taken by women from the Philippines and it's well known that they support whole families back in their countries with their wages so loosing job means loss of income for a family with children.

Those were potential outcomes that they didn't foresee not because they are dim but because they are arrogant and lack empathy.

NetworkGuy Tue 11-Dec-12 15:51:16

"I wondered if it played better to their home audience . . ."

I suspect it did. Someone from an Australian organisation was recommending they (DJs) get counselling ASAP because of the death threats etc. Various Australians commenting on the BBC or reported in the UK are (quite reasonably) wanting to remind the public that the outcome could not be forecast and the DJs have feelings. Seems maybe some in Australia are playing down the distress of the family of this nurse, which is where we may be concentrating our thoughts.

No, the DJs should not be hounded or get death threats. Yes, they did something rotten, but in line with 'radio pranks' (perhaps a bit wilder in Australia than we have in UK?) but at the same time with the high profile of the Royal family here (and in many commonwealth countries) surely knew the fallout would be career changing for the nurses - yet is seems the career changing they were thinking about was their own, as they became (in)famous overnight, for this call.

Someone earlier seemed to blame the hospital more than the radio station. I find that awful and wrong. Yes, the hospital was not blameless, and should have taken measures to deflect the media. However the radio station could have taken a different approach and reported only on the fact they did talk to staff (without airing the whole tape).

The security lapse was enough to get staff disciplined (whatever they are saying now) and given shifts etc, the radio station, after failing to get to speak to the nurses for permission (said to have tried 5 times) should have given up on airing the call, and could have done the responsible thing and spoken to senior management in the hospital [without saying when the call was made, thus reducing chance of dismissals/disciplinary proceedings against the nurses]. It may be that dozens of stations tried to get through and only the regular switchboard staff knew of the numbers, but nurses were clearly not prepared for this.

NetworkGuy Tue 11-Dec-12 15:58:39

blonderthanred - "their 'crap accents' would not be picked up. And who is going to question the Queen?" - well put. However much we might laugh at bad attempts at accents, at 05:30 possibly after a long shift, one can be forgiven for not challenging someone on the phone, cos you are on a loser if you challenge any of the Royals, just as much as answering the media.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Tue 11-Dec-12 16:05:25

Why has the radio station given £300k to the nurses memorial fund?

somebloke123 Tue 11-Dec-12 16:17:33

Whenever someone not in the public eye is suddenly thrust into a situation of public humiliation as a result of a prank, there is actually no way of predicting how they will react. They may laugh it off, or the disgrace and ridicule could be just unbearable - especially if they feel they have brought disgrace on their family.

You could say that this tragic outcome could not have been predicted, on the other hand equally there is no outcome that could be definitely excluded either. You can't just put a lid on the possible consequences.

The prank was just reckless. The nurse was already in a highly charged situation being responsible for such a high-profile individual and it was irresponsible (even without the benefit of hindsight) to humiliate her in such a way that was almost certain to impact on her professional standing and reputation.

Sallyingforth Tue 11-Dec-12 16:26:01

Why has the radio station given £300k to the nurses memorial fund?

Pure cynicism and greed. They haven't actually given the money.
They have said they will donate the advertising profits for the rest of the year (not a very long period!).
If you remember they were shocked when major advertisers pulled out of the station. This latest action is simply an attempt to persuade the advertisers to come back, so that the income can be donated.

GreatUncleEddie Tue 11-Dec-12 16:32:51

How was an Indian nurse to tell the difference between hrh the queen and a fake queen with a slightly Aussie accent? I wouldn't fancy my chances of spotting someone with an Aussie accent if we were speaking French.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Tue 11-Dec-12 16:37:34

Pure cynicism and greed that's was my feeling.

Stinks of 'its not our fault, but please don't sue us'

JamieandtheMagiTorch Tue 11-Dec-12 16:46:37

I think this case is awake up call to all of us who contribute to a culture that gets its kicks from humiliating, embarrasing or gossiping about others.

It's enlightening but nit surprising that they say pramking is just part of evryday life for them. Not once did they think about the wisdom of appropriateness of even pranking a hospital, never mind the rest of it.

Screwy moral compasses.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Tue 11-Dec-12 16:46:58

Terrible ipad typing

JamieandtheMagiTorch Tue 11-Dec-12 16:48:47

Somebloke. I agree. The very fact you do not know someone, and have not obtained permission to air the piece, is reason enough not to air it. You cannot know how they will predict.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Tue 11-Dec-12 16:49:06

React not predict

carocaro Tue 11-Dec-12 19:46:49

Yes not linked at all, the nurse just woke up one morning and thought yes today I will kill myself for no reason whatsoever, the DJ prank had no effect at all.

Are people deluded? Of course they are linked. Whoever does not get this must be thick and heartless.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 22:26:24

Are you serious?

No one knows a thing about her mental state.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 22:39:35

Are you that deluded that you can't see that maybe she had other things going on in her life?

That maybe her decision to kill her self had nothing to do with the DJs prank?

carocaro Tue 11-Dec-12 23:08:57

Yes totally serious. You really believe the two are not related? And are 100% sure that she had other mental health issues? You cannot possibly know that. But what is 100% clear is she took her life 3 days after the event, I am no Miss Marple but it is clear the two are related. These people who say she must have had other mental issues are judgemental and are belittling the nurse and the effect it had on her. The DJ,s did not expect to happen but it did and they need to accept responsibility. I repeat thick and heartless.

AmberLeaf Tue 11-Dec-12 23:28:48

I think you may be a little thick too caro TBH.

I don't think people saying she must have had other mental health issues are being judgemental at all. They/I are being realistic.

It wasn't even her that gave out information.

No one knew her name.

I really do believe that the two are not as related as some are trying to make out.

I think she probably had other stuff going on in her life or a history of depression/MH problems.

But that doesn't make such a good story does it?

These people who say she must have had other mental issues are judgemental and are belittling the nurse and the effect it had on her.

Although of course anyone who did subscribe to such a view would only be saying much the same thing as the mental health charities and psychiatrists who have commented on the case in the news...

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Wed 12-Dec-12 04:45:31

I think you may be a little thick too caro TBH. I don't think people saying she must have had other mental health issues are being judgemental at all. They/I are being realistic.

Its entirely possible she did have mental health issues. And what?

Surely that is a good enough reason to NOT phones someones place of work and put their job at risk. Because the person you are taking the piss out of, humilating and using is someone you don't know, so you can not predict and outcome.

As a person with or without mental health issues she has a right to work. She has a right not to be broadcast over the entire planet as a joke.

Notafoodbabyanymore Wed 12-Dec-12 06:34:43

The nurses were scapegoats for their employers not having appropriate procedures in place.

The DJs are scapegoats for their employers not having appropriate procedures in place.

To me it looked like the DJs have been told very clearly what they are allowed to say, and it's not much. That's why, I think, the interviews seemed stilted.

Just how I saw the situation, anyway.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 07:26:16

And if she did have MH issues how terrible that this so called joke pushed her to suicide.

There's no getting away from it. Had the prank not happened she would most probably be still here today.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 07:44:06

If that was the case Everlong, then it wouldve been something else that 'pushed' her to suicide.

Im really amazed that so many people think that the prank and its fallout would push an other wise perfectly happy adult to suicide.

No one but the person who takes their life is responsible for that.

In any other situation people would be saying that.

NetworkGuy Wed 12-Dec-12 07:50:07

"a culture that gets its kicks from ..."

it's why the trashy papers have readers, and many of the monthly / fortnightly {dare I say women's} mags and to some extent the broadsheets. Obviously gossip is most common but humiliation and embarrassment are probably close behind. Only way to show disapproval (which is something the public rarely do, however often they comment on the internet) is to simply boycott such media.

They claim they 'give us what we want' but in reality they dish up whatever they can and because people keep the circulation numbers high, or a particular story gets high readership (eg Princess Di, or the McCann's, after the disappearance of Madeleine, or some other story), they feel the numbers justify whatever stories they are publishing.

Letters to the editors whenever you see stories which are judgemental and damaging to someone's well-being might alert the staff to what is and isn't acceptable, but better to save your money and not buy the trashy things in the first place.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 07:53:14

Not necessarily so amber not all people with MH issues kill themselves.

This particular incident could have been just *too^ much.

But what do I know? I don't. I'm not in the camp that suspect she did have MH issues though.

My guess is that this whole thing scared her into this irrational reaction.

She has left a letter so hopefully it will leave her family with some answers.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Wed 12-Dec-12 08:00:36

then it wouldve been something else that 'pushed' her to suicide

Not necessarily. That's actually quite a ridiculous statement.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 08:18:35

Brady. that was only part of what I said.

I don't actually think anything 'pushes' a person to take their own life, that is simplifying the issue somewhat.

Everlong, I know very well that not all people with mental health issues kill themselves.

On this thread, It sounds a bit like some people are taking 'she may have had underlying depression/mental health issues' as an insult?

That is certainly not my angle.

Lots of people live with MH problems all their lives. Lots of people live with people with MH problems. Its normal.

Nancy66 Wed 12-Dec-12 08:23:09

I spoke to a journalist friend covering this story and there are certainly 'other issues' at play.

FivesGoldNorks Wed 12-Dec-12 08:29:23

" donate the advertisingprofitsfor the restofthe year"

So depending on when they said this, about 3 weeks' worth? What an empty gesture

MagicLlama Wed 12-Dec-12 09:03:43

I think that the difficulty is that we dont know.

However we can guess that this did contribute. It seems very likely that either with or without prior issues, this was a contributing factor. I think for that reason alone the DJs / Station etc should be apologising. The fact that they apparently cant because its admiting liability is just another symptom of the crap situation.

If a car skids on a patch of ice, and lands near the edge of a cliff, and then another couple do the same and each car knocks it closer to falling off the edge, and then I come along and skid and am the one car too many that ends up pushing the original car off the edge to their death, is it my fault they are dead? No. Not completely. Have I contributed to their death? Yes. Could I have forseen the consequences? No? Would I feel shockingly bad? Yes. Would I apologise to their families. You bet the fuck I would.

I think that actually the worse thing about this, is if she hadnt taken her own life, we wouldnt be hearing about it. There would be no uproar about it if she had just lost her job, or had a mental breakdown. Thats shocking.

The station should not have aired the tape without the hospitals permission. They tried 5 times, big wow. They then decided that permission or not they would play the tape, and thats wrong. They had no idea how any of the people involved would act. They had no knowledge if ay of the people involved were "delicate" and if they could / could not take this "joke".

I still firmly put the blame on the dj's and the radio station here - there is no excuse for their behaviour, whether or not there had been any fall out it was a shitty thing to do. I have yet to come across anyone who found it funny, although I'm sure some people did. Playing pranks on people you don't know is malicious - did they actually pause to think about what might happen to the people involved (warning, sacking)? There was no way nothing would have come from their stupid call (that's terrible English, but I hope you get what I mean?!).

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 09:47:19

Very well said magic

PlaySchool Wed 12-Dec-12 10:22:49

Agree with frostyfingers The DJs and radio station showed no concern about the consequences. It is obvious to anyone that there would be very unpleasant consequences for the staff involved even if they did not lose their jobs. The prank has backfired on them. Serves them right.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 10:48:54

So after being villified publicly for days, the two DJs decide they can take no more, there is no way out and kill themselves.

Who will be to blame for that?

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 10:50:20

No one knew Jacintha Saldanhas name until she took her life, everyone knows who these DJs are.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Wed 12-Dec-12 10:53:54

So after being villified publicly for days, the two DJs decide they can take no more, there is no way out and kill themselves. Who will be to blame for that?

Themselves and the radio station.

The DJs could not have predicted this. But doing this sort of thing has consequences. The consequences have been massive in this case. The fact is the calling someone and humiliating them will have consequences.

amber when a teenager kill themselves becacuse of bullying, do you feel the bully is blameless?

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 10:55:39

' who would be to blame for that '

Firstly I would think that is not going to happen. The tears are for themselves for how they think people will perceive them, their career.

I doubt for one second they are only crying for Jacintha.

I think if it did happen then the people to blame are the team that gave them the go ahead. They are the real ones at fault here.

Nancy66 Wed 12-Dec-12 10:55:49

she wasn't bullied though. Well, not by the DJs.

I don't even think she was humilated but that's just me.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 10:59:36

You don't even think she was humiliated? hmm

So why do you think she killed herself?

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:00:57

Neither do I Nancy.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:04:23

when a teenager kill themselves because of bullying, do you feel the bully is blameless?

A bully is guilty of bullying, but do I think they are responsible for a persons death? No of course they aren't.

But that's a totally seperate subject because those DJs didn't bully Jacintha Saldanha.

The DJs are now being hounded though, but if they kill themselves they deserve it according to some here so thats all ok.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:06:11

Thing is Everlong, no one knows what was going on in her life, not even her husband!

So its very easy to blame the DJ prank for the cause of her death.

But its all just assumption.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Wed 12-Dec-12 11:07:10

she wasn't bullied though

I didn't say she was.

I am saying that amber has said the only person to blame for this women killing herself is the woman. And that had it not been this 'prank' that something else would have pushed her to kill herself.

So the question still stands. Does a bully hold no responsibility when their victim kills themselves? Because the victim would have done it over something else anyway.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 11:08:16

But Amber if the child being bullied hadn't been bullied they wouldn't be so desperate to take their life.
There would be no reason.

Of course a bully has some part in it. For every action there is a reaction.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Wed 12-Dec-12 11:08:42

but if they kill themselves they deserve it according to some here so thats all ok

Can you point put where someone has said that because I can't find it.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:16:19

Brady are you deliberately misquoting me or just not reading properly?

I am saying that amber has said the only person to blame for this women killing herself is the woman

Absolutely yes.

And that had it not been this 'prank' that something else would have pushed her to kill herself

You know that is not what I said, I was replying to something Everlong said, it was her that mentioned 'pushing her to kill herself' not me.

Can you point put where someone has said that because I can't find it

You at 10:53am

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:18:13

Everlong, lots of people are bullied, some horribly.

Not all of them or anything even close to all of them kill themselves because of it.

So yes I disagree that the bullying is what causes them to end their life.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo Wed 12-Dec-12 11:18:15

the people to blame for this, imo, are the Royal handlers. they of ALL staff members know what happens when a royal goes into an 'ordinary' arena. they should have been briefing every receptionist, every porter, every janitor, every security guard etc etc. all calls should have been routed through them, and tbh if this poor woman had been told that and just fucked it up, then she will have been in line for a bollocking.

however, if she hadn't been told, then the fact that she was left exposed to public ridicule is entirely the Palace's fault, yet no blame has been laid at their door. i'm baffled, tbh.

So the question still stands. Does a bully hold no responsibility when their victim kills themselves? Because the victim would have done it over something else anyway.

Think it depends in part on proportionateness (is that a word?). If someone was maliciously bullied very badly for a length of time, I'd feel the bully was morally accountable (partly, perhaps not wholly) for the person's death.

If you are talking about a single solitary episode consisting of a stupid, puerile prank rather than deliberate prolonged acts of bullying, if the victim's reaction to that single event seems extreme or disproportionate, I'd be less likely to ascribe responsibility to the prankster/bully. That's speaking in general terms and no necessarily about this particular case.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 11:22:32

We will have to disagree on that one then Amber

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:25:48

A member of my family [A] killed himself.

Another member of my family [B] was meant to spend the weekend with him but couldn't due to unforeseen work commitments.

[B] agonised for years [and probably still does TBH] that had he spent that weekend with him, he wouldn't have taken his life.

[B] knew of course that [A] did have some MH problems and had been depressed on and off for years.

It was entirely [A]s choice to take his life and if he hadn't have done it that weekend then maybe it would have been the following weekend.

Blaming people for the decision of another to take their own life is wrong.

[A] was unwell when he choice to end his life, that is why he took his own life.

Blaming someone for a suicide goes against just about every single sensible bit of advice out there, be it [professional or anecdotal.

They are not to blame.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 11:27:52

*chose not choice.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 11:36:20

Outside influences can and do have an effect on people in many situations.

Suicide is no difference.

Of course nobody but Jacintha made that final decision. But what got her to be in that place to make it?

As aitch said the palace ( and the hospital ) should have had more guidelines down to the protocol regarding royal members but the main fault is with the radio station/dj's for pulling the prank in the first place.

Fakebook Wed 12-Dec-12 12:01:42

I just watched it and the man looks like he's acting! Very neighbours-esque with the breathing in and fighting back tears. I wouldn't be surprised if he's picked up by an Australian soap for a role soon. The woman looks genuinely upset.

SusannahL Wed 12-Dec-12 13:29:27

Does anyone remember Prince Charles making some joke to the press along the lines of "how do you know I am not from a radio station?" then having a chuckle? This of course was before the woman died but it demonstrates that even the royals took it (at that time) quite lightheartedly.

I can't understand why some are describing the DJ's behaviour as bullying.

Silly, yes, childish yes, but it couldn't be described as bullying.

I hate practical jokes, but I do feel it is unfair to blame those DJs for her death. As has already been said, the nurse must have had some sort of mental health issues which drove her to this tragedy, over such a minor incident.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 13:47:32

Who said they were bullies?

I thought the bully inference was a comparison.

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 14:15:25

Of course nobody but Jacintha made that final decision. But what got her to be in that place to make it?

Nobody knows.

Which is why no one should be aportioning blame for her death.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 14:17:37

We can all think what we like though, can't we Amber? <nod with me and keep nodding>

AmberLeaf Wed 12-Dec-12 14:27:31

Oh yes Everlong <nods> smile

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 14:34:32

Good woman wink

jumpingjane Wed 12-Dec-12 15:49:23

Oh for goodness sakes, not this again:

' As has already been said, the nurse must have had some sort of mental health issues which drove her to this tragedy, over such a minor incident.'
SusannahL

Are you a mental health expert with a specialist interest in suicide? Are you a personal friend or the personal physician of this lady?

I guess not or you wouldn't have called being caught in the middle of a serious breach of confidence involving the Royal family and possibly the most frequently photographed and talked about woman in the world, being mentioned in every newspaper across the world plus no doubt getting into very serious trouble with your employers, with the strong possibility of shortly loosing your job and thereby letting your own children down and bringing shame on your family (her perception not fact), 'minor'.

Sallyingforth Wed 12-Dec-12 16:33:02

Thank you jane
I find this uninformed speculation about the deceased person's health absolutely sickening.

jumpingjane Wed 12-Dec-12 16:54:40

So do I Sally. Can you tell? grin

grimbletart Wed 12-Dec-12 16:55:04

now here's an original thought - why not wait for the inquest?

jumpingjane Wed 12-Dec-12 16:55:54

Meant breach of confidentiality in the first post obviously not confidence! Must proof read.

SusannahL Wed 12-Dec-12 16:56:16

Why on earth do some regard any reference on here to her probable fragile mental state as some sort of insult? We are all trying to mke sense of what she did, and surely no-one can disagree that suicide was an extreme reaction to what was, despite what anyone says, a minor incident.

The hospital clearly stated that she was not reprimanded at all, and Buckingham palace have also confirmed that no complaint was issued from them.

Sallyingforth Wed 12-Dec-12 17:07:34

what was, despite what anyone says, a minor incident.

Gosh! So your judgment is correct despite what anyone says.

chipstick10 Wed 12-Dec-12 17:11:45

I hate to be a conspiracist, but something about this whole case doesn't sit right. I don't know why.

Sallyingforth Wed 12-Dec-12 17:14:43

Then wait for the inquest.

NetworkGuy Wed 12-Dec-12 18:01:21

'despite what anyone says, a minor incident'

Not sure that what amounts to a media intrusion into some patient's privacy (for starters) and then the rest of the media making it headline grabbing news, despite what you think, a "minor incident".

There was criticism of the DJs and the radio station for airing it first, there was far less criticism of the rest of the media rebroadcasting it in part or in full, while the hospital copped it pretty big for the poor handling and break in security.

Even after some days, when there may have been behind the scenes questions from security and the royal family directed at the hospital, followed by possibly angry comments fed down to the nurses involved, and while all that is going on, the topic has hardly been off the media, though perhaps not top of the news headlines.

Now say it's a "minor incident" again, and think how one of those who was the target of the prank may feel, when there's probably gossip in the hospital when working, and the news coverage is still going on, and I don't think it would have been so "minor" to Jacintha...

NetworkGuy Wed 12-Dec-12 18:03:41

"the main fault is with the radio station/dj's for pulling the prank in the first place."

It's not just the fact they pulled the prank, but they broadcast without (as far as can be ascertained, as they only said they rang 5 times, not that they got permission on the 5th call) permission or knowledge of the nurses, and not just that they broadcast it, but their "dynamite" prank call was against all sorts of journalistic / moral principles, yet they didn't consider broadcasting an excerpt, perhaps mostly of their own fake accents, and explained that they had got through, much to their surprise, but because the information was concerning a patient, they could not broadcast it.

They would have still caused a lot of news coverage because of the security issue, but not broadcasting the voices of the nurses, nor giving much detail about the time of the call, there would have been more limited 'fall out' in the UK, IMO.

NetworkGuy Wed 12-Dec-12 18:06:35

I don't regularly buy any newspapers, but I suspect there were articles every day after the story of the DJs making the call broke, and little let-up since.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Wed 12-Dec-12 18:07:09

A minor effing incident?

Really really stupid thing to say.

Even without this tragic outcome their arses should have been well and truly slapped. And when I say them I don't just mean the dj's.

jumpingjane Wed 12-Dec-12 18:08:02

Susannah:
'Why on earth do some regard any reference on here to her probable fragile mental state as some sort of insult? We are all trying to mke sense of what she did, and surely no-one can disagree that suicide was an extreme reaction to what was, despite what anyone says, a minor incident.

The hospital clearly stated that she was not reprimanded at all, and Buckingham palace have also confirmed that no complaint was issued from them.'

I don't find it insulting. Her family might well do though.

You are obviously quite clear in your mind that this was a 'minor' incident, despite suggestions my multiple posters on several threads that it wasn't. Lots of people have disagreed with you- you only need to read the posts here.
I find your opinions and way of expressing yourself incredibly arrogant and stupid. Even if it was may have been 'minor' to you, which I doubt you can honestly say, unless you have been in the same or v similar circumstances, it clearly wasn't minor to her and she was a different person, who should not be judged to be unstable/ weak or whatever simply because her feelings were different to what yours may or may not have been in the same set of circumstances.

As far as the hospital stating that they did not reprimand her, etc- you are incredibly naive and again stupid to believe that.

As I asked before, are a mental health expert? Are you a close personal friend or the personal physician of the nurse? Do you work at the hospital and were you involved directly in the whole process?

No? Then don't make comments which are at best ignorant, judgemental and potentially deeply hurtful to those who are immediately connected to this tragedy.

SusannahL Fri 14-Dec-12 10:40:42

Oh dear jumpingjane, you really do seem to be missing the point of these forums don't you?

Everyone has a right to voice their opinions on this and other topics.

You will disagree with some of those comments. Sorry but that how it works!

jumpingjane Fri 14-Dec-12 18:13:25

No, Susannah. I am well aware that this is AIBU. You have a right to your views. Other people have a right to their views too and a right to respond to yours.

I am simply challenging you on your statements which seem to be very uninformed (you still haven't answered my question as to whether you have professional expertise to back up your statements that the nurse obviously had MH issues). In addition. I am pointing out that what you are writing here could cause a great deal of upset to people reading them.

festivelyfocussed Fri 14-Dec-12 20:06:16

FYI, opinions aside, it is not the case that a person who commits suicide must necessarily have had a pre existing mental health problem.
This is not an opinion, simply a statement of fact.
HTH (although i doubt it).

jumpingjane Fri 14-Dec-12 20:22:23

I understand that, festivelyfocused.

Multiple possible causes for suicide and foolishly simplistic and, as you say, erroneous to assume that she had serious MH problems.

Poor lady suddenly thrust into an incredibly stressful situation.

SusannahL Mon 17-Dec-12 11:07:41

We now have another interesting development to mull over. The nurse stated in one of her suicide notes that she expressly blames the DJs for her act.

What a terrible thing for the DJs, but was she justified in stating that?

diddl Mon 17-Dec-12 11:24:24

Well, if that´s how she felt, then that is how she felt.

Whether or not others agree is up to them.

They were the ones actually taking the piss though & unfortunately she fell for it.

SusannahL Mon 17-Dec-12 11:32:15

Well I thought it was vindictive of her to spell it out like that.

Nancy66 Mon 17-Dec-12 11:36:39

she left a lot of letters blaming a lot of people....

diddl Mon 17-Dec-12 11:42:13

Well it seems people were thinking it anyway-hardly a revelation!

They were happy enough to gloat about making a fool of her.

SusannahL Mon 17-Dec-12 11:43:46

Really? We are seeing things in a new light now aren't we?

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 11:53:15

God all fucking mighty.

susannah you thought it was vindictive of her to spell it out like that?

Why shouldn't she have??

It's what she felt.

Animation Mon 17-Dec-12 11:56:27

"Well I thought it was vindictive of her to spell it out like that."

Susannah - Yes I think suicide, particularly by hanging and attempted suicides can be an act of anger. She appears angry in her suicide notes.

SusannahL Mon 17-Dec-12 12:00:06

Nancy has said there were a lot of letters blaming a lot of people, so obviously it wasn't just a result of the hoax call.

So there are now a lot of people feeling absolutely terrible after reading she was blaming them for what she was about to do.

Sorry but I think that was vile.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 12:02:07

The only thing that is vile is the fact that she was put in this position. Oh and your attitude.

Nancy has said there were a lot of letters blaming a lot of people, so obviously it wasn't just a result of the hoax call.

Well, 3 letters. I haven't heard mention of any more unless you've heard differently?

Sorry but I think that was vile

Likely the balance of her mind was disturbed.

Unless the content deals with something that would be a matter of public interest (ie, hospital breached protocol or didnt give its staff appropriate training) I think for everyone's sake, not least hers, the content would be best kept private.

PlaySchool Mon 17-Dec-12 12:08:50

I guess she was only stating the facts. I am doing x because of y. Fair enough.

Suicide is not necessarily a rational action. You cannot blame the person committing suicide. I don't suppose she ever wanted to feel suicidal or had suicide as a goal in her life. I'm glad I have never been so tortured that I felt death was my only salvation.

Animation Mon 17-Dec-12 12:31:03

"You cannot blame the person committing suicide"

But I think it's OK to be annoyed with them. Their actions do leave everyone blaming themselves and feeling condemned - and for many years to come.

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 12:42:18

dear God is this still going on? hmm

People seem to have entirely lost all sense of perspective over this.

Yes, it was a stupid thing to do. But it was a joke. Bad taste, absolutely, badly thought out to air it, totally. But equally to kill herself over it was entirely disporportionate. We all saw the news reports on the Tuesday, but after that the story pretty much died down, and it was the other nurse who took most of the flack anyway because she was the one giving out the information. So to say that this woman was publically humilliated by the world is frankly rubbish. Equally to compare this suicide to that of someone who has been bullied is wrong - bullying is sustained, this was not.

And no, it is not a "fact" that someone doesn't have to be mentally unstable to kill themselves - it is an opinion. Fact is that generally, normal, rational thinking people do not commit suicide. And generally, people do not commit suicide on impulse. There are of course exceptions such as in the case of the twin towers, where people jumped to their deaths rather than be burned/crushed alive within the building, or someone who loses a child and feels they can't go on without them. But as a rule suicide is the conclusion to a series of issues. And the problem with the statement that someone doesn't have pre-existing issues before committing suicide is one that can never be proven, because once someone kills themselves they're dead, so their opinion cannot be sought. I've often heard people say that someone had everything to live for/didn't have any issues before they killed themselves, often by friends/family. But clearly that can't be the case or they wouldn't have committed suicide, as hard as that is for the remaining relatives to deal with.

I think leaving letters blaming specific individuals is pretty despicable actually. And I don't think that being dead makes that less so. This woman chose to take her own life. She may have felt that certain events were the catelist to her doing so, but ultimately the choice was her's. To put in writing that the blame should lie with other people is pretty selfish IMO. They weren't to blame. Suicide could never ever have been foreseen.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 12:47:58

I don't know what I feel anymore.

I can't think she was selfish and despicable to name the DJ's in a note ( if this is the case, I haven't see it tbf ) because she must have been so distressed and angry with them.

And anyway this is just all speculation. We don't know what happened with her bosses or what was said in the note.

But to call a lady who has taken her own life in such tragic, public circumstances is pretty low in itself.

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 13:04:45

I don't know though everlong. I think tbh we (as a collective) are selective about where we opportion sympathy and where we don't, iyswim. In theory, suicide is always a desperate step on the part of anyone. But it ruins lives - the lives of the people who are affected by it either directly or indirectly. And we make our judgements based on individual circumstances. If we make a stark comparison:

On Friday a man walked into a Newtown school with a gun and shot and killed 27 innocent people. He then turned the gun on himself. Technically, his suicide was an act of desperation because no rational-thinking person kills themselves. But do we have sympathy for him? On the whole I think no, because of all the lives he destroyed before taking his own. And yet he can't have been thinking rationally, can he? Should we not feel some sympathy for that?

Contrast that with Jacintha Saldanha (sp?) who, following a badly thought out prank, decided to end her life. We don't know any more than that. But she has left notes behind naming individuals as being essentially to blame for her death. Individuals she had never dealt with before that day. By doing that, she has destroyed their lives. And that's before we get to the lives of her inocent children she left behind. We can have sympathy for the fact she felt desperate enough to kill herself, but did she have the right to destroy the lives of others by naming them, purely because she was, to be blunt, too gullible to see through their prank?

The two situations are not comparrible in their brutality, but in terms of the fact that liveswill have been knowingly destroyed by both is a fact. So how do we base our sympathy?

The Newtown tragedy was a godsend in terms of timing for that radio station. They'll be hoping the JH story gets buried below the sadness and soul searching coming out of the States.

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 13:12:48

actually, I think the Newtown tragedy just shows how much this particular story has been blown out of all proportion. In fact I said that exactly on my blog when I wrote about it on Friday.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 13:16:09

I don't know wannabe tbh this last week with the royal prank, the shootings on Friday and stuff in my personal life I feel under with it.

I don't see how there is a comparison with the two stories in reality.

The devastation left behind by the shootings is in my mind not the same as how the dj's will have to live with Jacintha blaming them. Because they did have a part in her death. They did. It isn't nice ( understatement ) for them of course it's not but there are reactions to certain actions and this is what happened here. On the face of it.

The children and their teachers were wholly innocent.

AmberLeaf Mon 17-Dec-12 13:34:14

I think leaving letters blaming specific individuals is pretty despicable actually. And I don't think that being dead makes that less so. This woman chose to take her own life. She may have felt that certain events were the catelist to her doing so, but ultimately the choice was her's. To put in writing that the blame should lie with other people is pretty selfish IMO. They weren't to blame. Suicide could never ever have been foreseen

Agree.

Good posts wannaBe

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 13:40:32

The issue though is that it couldn't have been foreseen. Actions often have reactions, but it doesn't make someone to blame iyswim.

Of course the children were entirely blameless, my point was more to do with the level of sympathy we direct at the suicidal person based on what we know before they committed suicide iyswim. Adam Lanza destroyed the lives of 27 innocent people and the lives of their friends and family who are left to pick up the pieces. But he still committed suicide. Does this fact make him deserving of some sympathy?

Jacintha Saldanha has named individuals (and other than the DJ's we don't as yet know who else she has named) as being too blame for her actions. It's easy to level blame at the DJ's because we have physical evidence of their involvement prior to the suicide. But what if she has named individuals who aren't actually involved in this? Are they to blame because she believes they are?

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 13:43:13

it could be argued that Adam Lanza's mother is partly to blame for his actions. Nurotic woman, anxious about the apocalypse, house full of guns. And yet society is as yet not laying the blame at her door, yet it could be argued that she is also partly culpable in the deaths of those children. Or could it?

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 13:43:47

it's a very dangerous game to play, the blame game.

And yet society is as yet not laying the blame at her door

The Daily Mail is leading the charge as we speak. grin

As an aside, it's rather sad that no-one has as yet claimed his or his mother's bodies. I hope the family step forward sooner rather than later.

HoneyMurcott Mon 17-Dec-12 13:47:29

What DoILook, Hoolio and and Solola said. Also think the head of the radio station could have been more fulsome in his apology. He seemed more pissed off than remorseful.

Damage limitation v true sincerity.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 14:01:22

Last week before the letters a lot of people were blaming the dj's and their team for a part in her death.

It now seems evident that she blamed them for what she was about to do.

For me that is enough.

And yes it must be lovely to be able to be so objective surrounding this subject.

SusannahL Mon 17-Dec-12 16:43:21

Well I for one hope that the DJs gain some comfort from learning that they weren't the only ones she blamed.

Otherwise what a terrible burden it would have been for them to live with for the rest of their lives.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 16:46:53

Yep pretty terrible.

But it doesn't scratch the surface as to what her children and husband will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 18:50:16

tbh I'm not sure it's fair to make it into a contest about who will feel the worst and why etc etc.

This notion of action vs reaction makes me deeply uncomfortable. After all where do we draw the line at that?

I don't think anyone is in any doubt that the two DJ's could never have foreseen that someone would commit suicide following their prank. No-one could have foreseen that. And yet there are plenty of people saying that they should in some way be held accountable for her death, that they are partly to blame.

But let's look at it in a slightly different light. I used to know a woman who, before I knew her, went out with a guy. For whatever reason, the relationship ran its course and she ended it. When she did, the guy told her that if she left him he would kill himself. She left him, and he killed himself. By the theory of action verses reaction, she was in fact to blame for his death. And unlike the DJ's, she knew the consequences of leaving this man could be that he might commit suicide, but she left him anyway, and he carried out his threat. Should she be held responsible? Should she have stayed in the relationship? After all, if she had, he would still be alive, surely?

If someone came on mn and said their partner was threatening to commit suicide because they wanted to end the relationship, would people advise them to stay? Or would they blame them if he then carried out the threat? especially as they would have known this might happen?

You see, it's a very very dangerous road to start down, this idea of opportioning blame. Because once you start blaming one person, you then have to start blaming others. someone who leaves a relationship knowing the ex has threatened to kill themselves is culpable if they carry out their threat because they knew what the consequences of their actions might be. Yet no-one would seek to blame them, well perhaps the close family might, but on the whole society wouldn't. Yet these DJ's couldn't have foreseen what the consequences of their actions might be, and yet they should be blamed for a woman's death? How does that work?

Suicide is a senseless and entirely selfish act. But it is also an act of personal choice. The individual who commits suicide may feel they have no choice, but they do actively choose to end their own life. You cannot opportion blame for that to anyone except the individual who goes through with it.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 19:08:00

Your comparison of the friend with the suicidal boyfriend isn't the same.

The dj's played a prank, a really stupid prank that was irresponsible and very wrong. Of course they couldn't have known that any nurse would take their life. But they could and should have guessed that if they did get through that the person would probably get into some kind of trouble. They didn't care how this person might feel.

If they hadn't have played the prank the nurse wouldn't have killed herself. This is apparent now.

Their actions are to blame and no amount of comparisons will make me think otherwise.

Animation Mon 17-Dec-12 19:08:55

"Suicide is a senseless and entirely selfish act. But it is also an act of personal choice. The individual who commits suicide may feel they have no choice, but they do actively choose to end their own life. You cannot opportion blame for that to anyone except the individual who goes through with it."

I completely agree wannaBe.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 19:14:49

So the fact that this nurse was driven to despair and was left apparently very angry by these two doesn't matter?

Their actions don't matter?

If that were your child or your husband do you think you'd feel the same?

Do you think you be so reasonable and not want to blame them?

I think you would.

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 19:27:59

but the "if it were your child," argument is entirely irrelevant, because it isn't. In the same way as we react to any number of situations differently if it's a member of your family vs someone we only know about iyswim.

It is entirely possible that her family may blame the DJ's. But just because they blame the DJ's doesn't mean the dj's are to blame. Iyswim.

In my situation mentioned above, the woman's family blamed her for her ex's death on the basis he had told her that was what he was going to do and she left him anyway. Was she to blame? And if not, why not?

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 19:31:49

He was blackmailing her.

The dj's did something that hurt her. Totally different.

And as someone whose child took their life I can say what if it were my child.

Animation Mon 17-Dec-12 20:06:26

"The dj's did something that hurt her."

I don't think that makes them responsible or to blame for her choosing to take her life. In life things happen and people upset us - that's all part of life. We are still responsible for our own feelings - and to be honest I think her actions and condemning notes are quite harmful and destructive themselves.

echt Mon 17-Dec-12 20:21:04

Finding it hard to believe the blaming of the victim here.

Suicide is not senseless, not to the person doing it. Patronising twaddle. It makes complete sense to them. The effect on loved ones is quite different. The use of selfish as a blanket criticism is unhelpful. Suicide is essentially self-ish in that it's about the self, but not necessarily nasty, except for the blackmailing kind.

everlong Mon 17-Dec-12 20:22:18

Where are these notes?

I haven't seen anything about them. Just stuff about them on here.

Animation Mon 17-Dec-12 20:31:34

echt - the djs may be responsible for upsetting her - but they're not responsible for her choice to take her own life. It's a responsibility issue that's being discussed - not a blaming of the victim.

AmberLeaf Mon 17-Dec-12 21:14:26

The notes have been mentioned in the press.

wannaBe Mon 17-Dec-12 21:31:04

"except for the blackmailing kind." but how can we know that the blackmail isn't also just desperation? especially if the blackmailer is prepared to follow through?

jumpingjane Tue 18-Dec-12 10:33:32

wannabe:
'And no, it is not a "fact" that someone doesn't have to be mentally unstable to kill themselves - it is an opinion.'

but you have mis quoted what was said wannabe.
This is what festively said:
'FYI, opinions aside, it is not the case that a person who commits suicide must necessarily have had a pre existing mental health problem.
This is not an opinion, simply a statement of fact.'

which is different.

Mentally 'unstable', whatever that means is NOT the same as having a history of mental health problems.

jumpingjane Tue 18-Dec-12 11:07:34

I can't see why any suicide notes 'blaming' the DJs or the hospital management put a different slant on anything and, frankly, calling it 'vile' as just as vile as those who are calling for the DJ's blood.

Whether or not Jacintha had mental health issues, it was always obvious that the prank call made by the DJs, the subsequent reaction of her employers and the mass media was the catalyst in her decision to take her own life.
The notes have only confirmed this. They show how angry and upset she was about the whole thing. Not sure why this is surprising to anyone.

I don't see that many (if any) on this thread have suggested that this makes the DJs responsible for her death. Most people have just said that they do not sympathise with them and that they came across v poorly in the interview. They were very childish, selfish and stupid to try to make a prank call to a hospital but they are are not responsible for the tragic outcome here.

Personally, I can't stand this relatively new concept, perpetuated by the media (and the lawyers) that someone must be to blame if something goes wrong.
It is negative and unproductive.
What is useful is for the DJs, the radio station, the hospital management, the royals, etc to look at what happened without pointing fingers and try to learn from mistakes that were made in the decision making processes throughout.

wannabe- I can't see any similarity at all between the Adam Lanza murders and subsequent suicide nor your friend and her boyfriend and what has happened in this case. They are completely and utterly different in every way.
Amber- I am sorry for the loss of your relative and I think it has coloured your views on this subject. Again, your case is completely different to what has happened here.

SusannahL Thu 20-Dec-12 16:51:09

A very merry Chrsitmas to one and all on here!

I hope everyone survives with their sanity intact!!

AmberLeaf Sun 23-Dec-12 09:15:31

Amber- I am sorry for the loss of your relative and I think it has coloured your views on this subject. Again, your case is completely different to what has happened here

Thanks, yes Im sure it has coloured my views, to the point where I just don't think things like this are ever that simple and that it is very very wrong to blame a person for anothers choice to take their life.

Ive just read that Jacintha Saldanha had previously tried to take her own life on two occasions.

That confirms as far as I am concerned that she was already very troubled and while the DJs prank was wrong it is wrong to blame them for her death.

Nancy66 Sun 23-Dec-12 09:35:18

so the nurse had deep-seated problems all along. Not surprised in the least.

everlong Sun 23-Dec-12 09:38:37

So what if she had deep rooted problems.

This fucking prank pushed her over.

Nancy66 Sun 23-Dec-12 09:40:12

...you've no idea if that's true.

Sounds like a very unhinged woman who was always going to kill herself. The fact she left notes blaming people also shows her - in my view - to not be a particularly nice person either.

everlong Sun 23-Dec-12 09:42:49

And you've no idea it isn't.

Nancy66 Sun 23-Dec-12 09:44:56

WE do know she had attempted suicide on two previous occasions - the last time less than a year ago.

We do know she was on medication

we do know she had received psychiatric treatment was marked down as a risk of making further suicide attempts.

everlong Sun 23-Dec-12 09:46:38

So.

It's not a given she would have ways killed herself.

SusannahL Sun 23-Dec-12 12:53:11

Well I had my doubts about the woman right from the word go, and I still maintain that, given what we have now learnt, that she was most likely to have killed herself sooner or later.

It was said she died of shame, but what about the shame she brought on her poor children? Far far worse imo than the 'shame' of being caught out in a hoax.

So so wrong to blame the DJs.

everlong Sun 23-Dec-12 13:27:44

Despicable thing to say. ' doubts about the woman ' fucking hell.

crashdoll Sun 23-Dec-12 15:08:41

IMO it makes it even worse. Poor vulnerable woman. Upon reading a few comments here and other places online, I think...big fucking society my arse. biscuit

everlong Sun 23-Dec-12 15:12:27

And susannah what shame exactly has she brought on those children?

There is no shame in suicide. hmm

AmberLeaf Sun 23-Dec-12 16:31:25

There is no blame either.

AlexReidsLonelyThisChristmas Sun 23-Dec-12 16:40:52

Ooh Susannah you're a peach aint ya? Bet in the light of recent news update you couldn't wait to rush to this thread to say "I told you so".

autumnlights12 Sun 23-Dec-12 16:42:36

there's no shame and no blame. These new developments put a different perspective on it.

crashdoll Sun 23-Dec-12 16:50:18

They provoked a vulnerable person. Whether they knew she was vulnerable or not is irrelevant. People need to have respect and consideration for other humans.

FergusSingsTheBlues Sun 23-Dec-12 16:58:47

Lack of compassion on this thread is staggering. Those of you criticising her suicide notes should be ashamed of assasinating her character on the back of the last communication written in the darkest and final hours of her life. Let her rest in peace ffs.

everlong Sun 23-Dec-12 17:35:01

You are right fergus

Some very heartless and unfeeling so and so's on here.

Let's hope they never have to understand how losing a close relative to suicide feels like. I'm sure if they did their attitude would change.

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