To have made a formal complaint to school about other parent

(184 Posts)
Zavi Fri 07-Dec-12 22:37:29

My DC hit another child. Unprovoked. Both children have history of being very good friends together. Never any problems before this. My DC shouldn't have done that, knew it, and apologised straight away. The other child said to mine that they weren't going to tell the teacher because they didn't want to get my child into trouble. End of story between the two kids who carried on as friends as usual.

The next day, the other mum called my DC, who was on the swing, over to her (before school after I had dropped off) and then holding my DC by the arm, told them that she was angry and upset with them over what they'd done to her child. That she "wanted it to stop", and that she didn't want my DC to do that to her DC again. My DC said sorry again and said it wouldn't happen again.

The mum then went into the school to complain to the class teacher that her DC had been hurt by my DC but had been too frightened to tell the teacher at the time. She then went to the head to report what had happened.

I know my DC shouldn't have done that but I think this mums response was OTT.

She could have spoken to the teacher in charge at the time of the event. Or she could have asked my DC for their side of the story first but she just accepted her DCs version of events before reprimanding my DC.

I'm upset that she did neither. Just took my DC to task and really frightened them in the process.

I think she could have handled the situation better and need not have confronted my DC so directly over an issue that was resolved between them without tears or teacher intervention.

But AIBU to feel aggrieved at the way, and the order, in which this other mum set out to resolve matters?

Zavi Fri 07-Dec-12 22:39:24

Children are 8 yrs.

Chanatan Fri 07-Dec-12 22:41:26

yanbu,I would have been fuming,different if she had a word with you first.

LondonButterfly Fri 07-Dec-12 22:42:17

You seem to have accepted your DC's version of events too.

But she could have handled situation better.

lookingfoxy Fri 07-Dec-12 22:42:33

She shouldn't really have confronted your ds, but went to the teacher firstly.

If she just had a word with your ds and wasn't aggressive about it, then I can sort of see her point even though she took the wrong course of action.

wonderstuff Fri 07-Dec-12 22:43:18

YANBU. I would have been upset.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Fri 07-Dec-12 22:43:47

How do you know what happened when she spoke to your son?

Aranea Fri 07-Dec-12 22:44:01

It sounds as though what you see as a friendship, she perceives to be a bullying relationship.

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Fri 07-Dec-12 22:44:32

Are you sure it was the other childs idea to not tell anyone, since he went home and told his mum?

LucieMay Fri 07-Dec-12 22:44:53

Are we talking about boys or girls? You avoid giving the gender of either child.

HopingItllBeOK Fri 07-Dec-12 22:45:07

So she has taken her DC's version of events as read, much the same as you have when you believe that the hit child had suggested not telling the teacher?

Yes she absolutely shouldn't have confronted your child herself, especially when they didn't have an adult with them, but at 8 children tend to be very good at owning up to a 'small' discretion to avoid a bollocking for a bigger one so I would be wary of taking my child's word as gospel in this situation.

fortyplus Fri 07-Dec-12 22:45:16

YABU - so is she

musttidyupBeforeSantaComes Fri 07-Dec-12 22:45:32

I'd be fucking livid if someone had got hold of my child. YANBU.

MrsjREwing Fri 07-Dec-12 22:45:45

You may learn that your child has form and this was the last straw.

I think the other parent could have handled it better, it is a shame the other parent had to handle the mess your child created in the first place.

Shakey1500 Fri 07-Dec-12 22:46:08

Yanbu to feel aggrieved at the events but what will reporting her to the school do? confused

Or am I missing something?

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 07-Dec-12 22:46:22

I think the manhandling your child is the primary issue here. I wouldn't be happy either. She had no reason to touch your child at all,she could have just had a quiet word,though that's not particularly appropriate after the event either. Why didn't she just speak to you if the two of then are usually good friends? Ott behaviour in my opinion.

YANBU

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 07-Dec-12 22:47:37

lucie why does gender matter?

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 22:47:41

She definitely should not have spoken to your child, but you do not know the full story.

It's possible that her child has been bullied, or she perceives it to have been bullied. The school needs to investigate.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 22:48:20

She could have handled it better and not taken what her DC said at face value, but apart from grabbing his arm, she doesn't sound too bad.

I'm saying that from the POV that she might have been OTT because she'd built up what had happened in her mind, and if you think your DC is being hurt by another child it can sometimes make you unreasonable.

What she did was a knee-jerk reaction.

But up until you describe what she did, the DC sound as though they're good friends and this was just a blip. She's reacting like she thinks your DS could be bullying her DS, which would explain her not stopping until she got the recognition she wanted that this was a serious situation.

I know you will feel protective of your DS and she shouldn't have grabbed his arm, but if you think something's going on and making your DC unhappy, it could look OTT in other peoples eyes.

propertyNIGHTmareBEFOREXMAS Fri 07-Dec-12 22:48:37

Yanbu in that it might have been more sensible for the woman to have spoken to you about it instead of going straight to cause a big fuss at school. On the other hand, your dc was in the wrong and so ultimately has to bear the consequences. It might well be right that the other child was too scared to say anything to a teacher. You can't know that you are getting the accurate story from your dc (as your dc may not know how the other child really views the incident).

lookingfoxy Fri 07-Dec-12 22:49:56

When the other parent said 'she wanted it to stop' perhaps there have been other incidents that you don't know about.

muddledmamma Fri 07-Dec-12 22:50:49

yanbu

Ideally she should have spoken to you and your child together. Her reaction seems inappropriate to me.

Fozzleyplum Fri 07-Dec-12 22:50:59

YANBU. A very neurotic mother of a child in my DC's class once took it upon herself to berate my DC in a similar fashion (for something DC hadn't done, as it happened - her little precious was prone to lying). I was fuming. She didn't ever do it again!

Parents shouldn't try to deal with problems that occur at school.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 22:51:05

blush I might have ascribed them genders that weren't mentioned in the OP - a bit, sorry OP.

But it didn't make any difference to what I said in my post.

WorraLorraTurkey Fri 07-Dec-12 22:51:23

I wonder if the arm thing was added in for a bit of sympathy by your DC?

I'm just wondering because if you call an 8yr old over and they come to you (as you said they did) there would be no reason to hold them by the arm?

Either way, I don't think she was wrong to report it even though the kids had sorted it out because it might not have been a one off.

Especially as the other child sounds so 'accepting' of getting randomly hit and not telling the staff.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 22:52:32

What did your DC say when you asked them why they hit their friend OP? <checks question is genderless>

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 22:56:03

Do you mean in a reassuring way worra?

That would depend on her tone of voice.

If she was saying it in a caring voice '..and we don't behave like that, do we?' way, it could have been.

If she was having a go at the DC, taking hold of their arm is threatening and controlling.

takataka Fri 07-Dec-12 22:56:36

the only thing the other parent did wrong IMO, is hold your childs arm

why did your child hit the other, 'unprovoked'?

Zavi Fri 07-Dec-12 22:58:00

DCs are boys. She didn't grab my DC, she held his shoulder to keep him there. No other incidences between the DCs before. No other incidences with my CD before (except on the receiving end of things, which school dealt with on their own, appropriately).
Other mums DC had hurt another child previously (leaving marks on body with a brio) and when other mum expressed concern, and asked to speak to her DC about the matter was told "No, I will deal with my own child".
Also, other mum works as a "parenting advisor" for a charity and runs parenting workshops privately as a child psychologist.

muddledmamma Fri 07-Dec-12 22:59:23

Arm on the shoulder isn't the same as grabbed an arm which for some reason is what I was imagining. I'd keep an eye on the situation and let it go.

Chanatan Fri 07-Dec-12 23:02:06

Still think she was in the wrong,she should have reported to school and let them deal with it.

CabbageLeaves Fri 07-Dec-12 23:03:19

I would never ever grab another child by arm shoulder whatever. However the school cannot police parents.

You need to take it up with the mum in question

LynetteScavo Fri 07-Dec-12 23:04:03

There are two sides to every story.

My DD has been hit by another child in her class on several occasions recently, and has not told the teacher. She has, however, come home and told me. I've seen this child randomly hit other children (and other misdemeanors) since reception, and as their mum is a very open person, who I've chatted to at length socially, I know (as well as any non-psychologist can) there is no SN, just ineffectual parenting.

I would very much like to go and get hold of this other child and tell him to STOP HITTING, and if I frightened them, all the better. Of course I would never do such a thing, but have written to the teacher about it.

As I said, every story has two sides, and you could easily be the mum of the boy who has been hitting my DD.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 23:04:30

Shoulder or arm, I wouldn't be too happy with someone trying to intimidate/control me by holding on to me while they're saying something they know I wouldn't like.

I sometimes hold onto DD2 when I'm saying something important to her, but she's two and would run off if I didn't.

Speaking to an 8 YO, you don't need any kind of contact. If they run off/don't listen, you deal with it.

WorraLorraTurkey Fri 07-Dec-12 23:06:05

No Ziggers I meant I wonder if the OP's DC made up the arm holding thing for sympathy because that's the only thing the mother has done wrong imo...and if the child came when she called them, I can't see why she would bother holding their arm.

<< Whispers >>

Where have you been btw?

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:12:33

There is no excuse for a grown women to intimate someone else's child WHATEVER they have done. Children are children and none of them are perfect.

She has no right to tell off someone else's child. Who does she think she is? If the OP child needs to be told off then the telling off should be done by a teacher or the parent. It is outright bullying. Grabbing someone else's child is assult pure and simple.

I would definately discuss it with the school. The school has a responsiblity for your child's safety. Prehaps the headteacher needs to have a strong word with this nutcase.

MarianneM Fri 07-Dec-12 23:13:42

YABU

I can imagine toddlers hitting other children without understanding what they're doing but an 8yo.

And I actually think it's good to speak to the child directly.

I don't really understand your problem. YOUR DC hit the other child. And the staff in the school should be aware. That is how bullying for example can be stamped out in the beginning.

It often seems to be the parents of bullies who are most defensive and accusatory.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 23:13:51

Ah, yeah, see what you mean worra.

Actually I skim read missed the bit in brackets and thought the OP had seen it happen.

DC really can have amazingly different interpretations of what actually happened, not that the OP's DS is defo making it up, but you have to wonder sometimes how they manage to miss so many important bits out/add other bits in.

(I've been being sober a grown up and found myself a bloody good internet job grin grin grin and don't want to fuck it up. I've done my hours today so the night is young... LOL)

MarianneM Fri 07-Dec-12 23:14:21

ReallyTired - what nonsense your post is.

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:16:32

"I would never ever grab another child by arm shoulder whatever. However the school cannot police parents."

Schools are within their rights to ban parents from the grounds for aggressive behaviour.

www.worcestershire.gov.uk/cms/pdf/2007-09-11%20Banning%20Parents%20Policy%20%282%29.pdf

Chanatan Fri 07-Dec-12 23:19:25

Actually I think Really Tired talks a lot of sense,parents shouldnt be approaching other peoples children,let the school deal with it,and yes I have known of a parent banned from the play ground,had to leave her children at the gate.

ChippingInAWinterWonderland Fri 07-Dec-12 23:19:46

Also, other mum works as a "parenting advisor" for a charity and runs parenting workshops privately as a child psychologist

That's worrying.

I would be livid if anyone but my best friends bailed them up like that in the playground (by best friends I mean those we would regard as 'as good as family').

I would be in the Heads office having words.

MarianneM Fri 07-Dec-12 23:21:07

Depressing thread. Says so much about people's attitudes today.

takataka Fri 07-Dec-12 23:24:32

if my dc thumped another child unprovoked, I would be perfectly happy for the childs mother to tell off my dc, and for the teachers to be told confused

why wouldnt you be?

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 07-Dec-12 23:24:48

Schools can and do "police" parents behaviour when they are on school premises.

Whilst I was at primary school two mums got banned from the premises because they had a fight. A physical fight.

Another mum was banned from the premises for threatening to hit me whilst I was walking home from school. She didn't like another girl I was friends with. No idea what the problem was,I was only 9 and not even in the same class as her own daughter. She threatened to punch me! Was banned for years, which was awkward as she had about 4 children in the school.

CabbageLeaves Fri 07-Dec-12 23:25:23

Well yes schools can take action to ban parents in extreme circumstances but frankly if they got involved with every parental dispute at the school gates you'd need a member of staff full time to deal with mediation, sentencing and judgements!!

This could well be a one off. An inappropriate one of but asking the head to go to the governors to ask that the mother is excluded from school property seems a trifle unhelpful to the whole situation.

What magic does the teacher wield? If a teacher goes over to verbally smack this mum's hand how will that improve matters? Either say nothing and monitor....or go up to her and tell her you think that physical contact and intimidation is something that is not acceptable. How would she like the same behaviour from you?

takataka Fri 07-Dec-12 23:26:15

but parents dont get banned for telling off a child who has thumped their child confused

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:27:45

The mother of the "victim" is hardly neutral. She was effectively, judge, jury and metaphorically executioner.

Ofcourse she is going to take her side when there may well be blame on both sides. It is rather better to have teachers handle bullying allegations as they are mutral and have more experience. Teachers have a whole host of strageries and lots of experience as dealing with scrapping eight year old boys.

It must feel terrifying for an eight year old to be grabbed and shouted at by a so called "friend of the family" who is twice their size.

Chanatan Fri 07-Dec-12 23:29:23

Thats exactly what the parent was banned for,told that telling another parents child off was inappropiate behaviour and the school should be informed and left to deal with all incidents.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:29:59

I agree with that ReallyTired

I do not think parents should ever approach a child directly. Where bullying is suspected (as it may be here), they shouldn't even take it to the parents. School should deal with it

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:30:51

This is a thread where another vigilante nutter got quite rightly banned from the playground.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/bullying/992771-dh-banned-from-school-playground-after-dd-bullied-for-two/AllOnOnePage

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:31:26

takatak

I wouldn't be, because unless that mother saw what happened, she cannot know

MarianneM Fri 07-Dec-12 23:31:34

"to be grabbed and shouted at"

When did the OP say that? She told the other child off. I would be grateful if another parent told my DD off in similar circumstances. Actually bothering to engage with the child rather than just going to moan to the teachers.

People are so hysterical about another adult even looking at or speaking to their child...ridiculous!

treaclesoda Fri 07-Dec-12 23:32:37

I wouldn't be happy about another adult holding my child by the arm/shoulder whilst scolding them either, but on the other hand, the problem with situations like this is that the OP, understandably, believes her child to have told her the whole story, and the other child's mum believes that her child has told her the whole story, and its possible that neither parent knows for sure what has really happened. It would have been best to leave it to the school, I think.

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 23:33:03

But the fact that the mum went steaming in without the full facts says a lot about her state of mind Marianne.

I don't want people randomly having a go at my DD because of what their DC has said to them about her.

If they do, they'll have me to deal with because I'm another adult and my DD is a child and as her parent I'll decide how to sort it with her.

A short telling off about something that needed dealing with then/there would be different, no problem with that, but you can't go giving in to the completely understandable rage other children can bring out in you when your DC tell you they're being shitty to them.

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:34:22

Here is another stupid bitch who got herself banned from the school grounds.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1200780/Mother-banned-school-confronting-sons-bully.html

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:36:06

ReallyTired

Off the point, but. The Bra

MarianneM Fri 07-Dec-12 23:36:18

"randomly having a go at my DD "

Well it wasn't randomly was it - the OP's child hit the other child.

"If they do, they'll have me to deal with because I'm another adult and my DD is a child and as her parent I'll decide how to sort it with her."

I think this is precisely the wrong attitude. What, you will send the boys round or something?

I think it's good that a parent actually takes the trouble to talk to the other child than simply being passive-aggressive which most of you seem to advocate.

Although I do think the school should know too.

treaclesoda Fri 07-Dec-12 23:36:51

There are situations where I think its perfectly appropriate for an adult, who is not a child's parent, to reprimand a child. I was at an event recently where a child was extremely violent to several other children who were smaller than him. This included knocking a toddler to the ground and stamping on him, grabbing a baby round the neck with both hands, and various other escapades of that nature. His mother refused to step in, and just simpered a bit and shrugged her shoulders. So other parents stepped in and reprimanded him instead. I can't see why that should be inappropriate - if a parent doesn't want other adults to reprimand their child, the best thing to do is to step in and do it themselves, then others won't need to.

MarianneM Fri 07-Dec-12 23:36:55

Ok, I get where you're coming from no Really Tired.

Nighty night.

WorraLorraTurkey Fri 07-Dec-12 23:36:57

Oh Ziggers make sure you turn the web cam off afterwards shock wink

If an 8yr old hit my child unprovoked and then persuaded him not to tell the staff, I'd pull the child up too and have a stern word with him (I wouldn't hold his shoulder).

If my 8yr old hit another child unprovoked and then persuaded him not to tell the staff, I would be perfectly happy for his Mum to pull my child up and have a stern word too (without the shoulder holding).

I'm not sure when we as a Nation stopped doing this?

But I know when I was a child, a telling off from another parent/neighbour nipped any bad behaviour from me straight in the bud...much more so than if my parents or the teacher told me off.

takataka Fri 07-Dec-12 23:37:33

OP didnt say the woman shouted at all...she just told OPs dc that she was upset and angry about what had happened and it must stop...sounds perfectly reasonable

I would go through the teachers, but dont think speaking directly to the dc is particularly wrong. Of course the child would have been upset by the exchange....kids normally are if they are told off for something they have done wrong arent thye

WhoKnowsWhereTheMistletoes Fri 07-Dec-12 23:37:45

A parent in my DS's class was given a formal warning that they could be banned from school property following a similar event.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:38:47

Worra

Honestly, I am of the "it takes a village to raise a child" school of thought. But not on school premises when you have not seen the incident yourself.

Cahoootz Fri 07-Dec-12 23:38:52

YANBU. Not at all. I would talk to the school.

treaclesoda Fri 07-Dec-12 23:38:54

to clarify, I'm talking about situations where another adult actually witnesses the behaviour in question. Not a 'my child says X' , and 'my child says Y' situation, as in reality no one can know the truth of what happened except those who were there.

takataka Fri 07-Dec-12 23:40:15

Jamie OPs child hasnt disputed that they thumped the other child unprovoked...there arent 2 versions of events

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:42:28

takataka

I wonder if there are though .... From her words, other mum may see this as more than a one-off. Also, whereas OP's child says the child suggested not telling the teacher, the other mother says her child was 2too scared" to tell the teacher

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 07-Dec-12 23:42:32

I think being told off by someone else's parent can come as a big shock to children. It's why teachers control classes so well in infant/primary school (by high school the majority don't care that much really). So that the woman had a word with OP's DS isn't really the issue,it's the uncessary touching. Nobody has any right to touch someone else's child in anger.

WorraLorraTurkey Fri 07-Dec-12 23:42:48

Honestly, I am of the "it takes a village to raise a child" school of thought. But not on school premises when you have not seen the incident yourself.

The child admitted to it, why did she need to see it?

ripsishere Fri 07-Dec-12 23:45:30

I am torn, I do think that a formal complaint is a bit OTT though.

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:46:24

The parent had not witnessed the behaviour so was not round to nip in the bud. If she had witnessed the behviour and the OP was not around then it would be OK for her to say something.

However the telling off came sometime after the incident. The victim's mother made no attempt to discuss the matter with OP. She should have spoken to the OP first and allowed her to discipline her own son.

The OP says that her child was frightened. Surely that is going too far and is a form of bullying in itself.

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:47:08

Fair point, but the child also says he apologised, so no need for any steaming in.

IMO. the other mum clearly thinks this is more than a one off, in which case she should go to the school. Or she is completely over-reacting to a one-off event, in which case she's also in the wrong to touch and talk to the OP's child

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:47:42

My last post was in reply to worra

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 23:53:57

"The child admitted to it, why did she need to see it? "

Prehaps because she does not know the full circumstances. Sometimes red mist decends with chidren. We don't know why the OP son lost his temper.

When my son was seven he punched a boy quite hard in the face because the boy took the mick out of him for wearing hearing aids. My son lost his temper because he did not like being called "spastic". This was witnessed by the dinner ladies and both boys were punished. Infact my son had less of a punishment than the other boy.

The other boy's mother was convinced that her son had been "bullied". I don't agree with violence, but I think her son asked for the punch.;

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 23:54:29

'Well it wasn't randomly was it - the OP's child hit the other child.'

The mum was randomly having a go because she hadn't found out what had actually gone on before going steaming in.

'What, you will send the boys round or something?'

Hahahaha like Phiw Mitchewl? A knee capping wasn't quite what I meant grin I meant that if another parent thinks my DD has been bullying someone else, that they couldn't intimidate me in the same way they could my DD would be (i.e. a child being told off by an adult, who she's been brought up to show respect to at all times wink). That is, I wouldn't accept their raging fury telling off unless I was sure of the specifics.

Letting the school deal with these things isn't being PA, it's letting the people who can take an objective stance deal with it through school procedures (which are set up to sort exactly these kind of emotional situations).

(in that situation I think a drink or two might be a benefit worra grin)

JamieandtheMagiTorch Fri 07-Dec-12 23:57:13

AZ

You put it better than me. School procedures are there, and luckily IME do protect the "bullyer" and the "bullyee"

AgentZigzag Fri 07-Dec-12 23:59:06

I would be of the 'it takes a village to raise a child' thinking, if there weren't so many unreasonable village idiots out there grin

JamieandtheMagiTorch Sat 08-Dec-12 00:00:19

true

I wouldn't want DM bra-revealing journo woman anywhere near my offspring

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 00:03:07

I don't care why he lost his temper...it was 'unprovoked' as the OP has stated.

Not only did her DS hit someone who had not provoked him, he then persuaded him to keep quiet so he didn't get into trouble for it.

The OP should be bloody glad that hopefully this Mother has shocked her son into not using his friend as a punch bag and then silencing him.

The more kids allow him to get away with that, the bigger problem the OP is likely to be faced with in the future.

rufusnine Sat 08-Dec-12 00:35:09

Many many years ago my 4 year old was being repeated hit/kicked by an older - Yr4 child because she wouldn't play with her (admittedly she had what would be classed as "social problems "now - the Y4 child I mean) My then Y3 child told me what was occuring and I contacted the school to try to sort it out. It continued and although I'm not really proud of my actions - I confronted that child and told her in no uncertain terms that if there was a next time I would be kicking her twice as hard! Before anyone screams child abuse I wasn't really intending to carry out my threat - but it worked and my child lived happily -and not kicked - ever after! Nowadays would prob have the police on my doorstep!

AgentZigzag Sat 08-Dec-12 00:39:19

Whatever you thought my child had done rufus, if you threatened to kick my DD twice as hard as you thought she'd kicked you, I would not be a happy bunny.

Say what you want to me because I can deal with you as another adult.

Whether you intended to do it or not wouldn't factor into my thinking.

AgentZigzag Sat 08-Dec-12 00:40:10

'twice as hard as you thought she'd kicked you', I meant 'twice as hard as you thought she'd kicked your DC'.

Zavi Sat 08-Dec-12 00:55:44

My DC didn't lose his temper and didn't ask the other child to "not tell". I do btw believe my DC's version of events because they were not favourable to him!

I think the other mum was cross at her own child for not reporting what my DC had done. For not protecting himself against future events by telling the teacher what my DC had done ( even though my DC immediately apologised and that this was not in any way a bullying incident)

I was very cross with my DC when told what happened. It was completely out of character. He knows that. Not least because he has been told off by the original DC, by original DCs mum, me, his dad, his teacher, the head...,

I think the other mum was concerned that, if her own DC didn't raise things up to teachers, other children might hurt him without the school being engaged in what was happening. Thats understandable.

I think though, that she thought she ought to "nip it in the bud" - directly with my son - just in case he ever thought of doing that again. Even though it was a complete one-off between good friends.

My concern is that:
- she doesn't approach my son like that again (he was naughty, but he felt very intimidated by her. Wanted to cry - but no teachers in the playground at start of school sad
- she doesn't approach other children like that again
- the school adopt clear guidelines as to how parents go about addressing their concerns and - specifically - that parents should use the school as a first point of contact for any issues in relation to their children. Not direct their concerns to children without seeking clarification of events from the adults thentime if events

Is that reasonable?

ALL views welcomed!

upstart68 Sat 08-Dec-12 06:39:38

I think it's very wrong for a parent to approach a small child in the playground and have a go at them. And yes I think schools should make clear guidelines to parents about this.

Because - nine times out of ten these things stem from a chain of events. IME it's rarely a case of one just randomly hitting/kicking another one. If it's dealt with by the teachers, they can see if any staff witnessed any part of it, can establish what happened by listening to all dc concerned. And can give appropriate non biased punishment.

I don't think a parent has the right to scare the crap out of small dc over what she/he thinks might have happened. Even if they are pretty sure they know what happened and it was wrong - that still doesn't give them the right to assume the role of judge, jury and prosecuter and dole out public floggings (metaphorically speaking).

It's just so easy to get it wrong. With my own dc, I find snippets of what exactly happened come out over a period of time. What in the first instance might have seemed like a random attack on her, can over time become a situation where she wound someone else up beyond and they lashed out. The child responsible has a right to have that dealt with appropriately and privately.

So yes I agree with your points there.

SoldierKatnissEverdeen Sat 08-Dec-12 06:57:32

Tbh the one thing glaring out at me is...why did you leave your child unsupervised in the school playground before school was open? This is an absolute no-no in our school. It made him vulnerable to just this kind of thing happening. Our school is an average school as opposed to a rough one but leaving the children this way is not allowed. He's only 8 fgs.

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 07:10:04

YANBU to think that the other mother went about this in the wrong way, and I am sure the school would agree with you.

This incident should have been sorted out initially by the DC (which it seems it was), and if they couldn't do this they should have gone to a teacher. If either child didn't feel this had/would resolve the situation, they should have explained this to a parent and the parent should have contacted the school and expressed their concern that school behaviour management policies didn't seem to be working. At no point should a parent have spoken to the other DC in this way for the simple reason that they weren't there when the incident happened and don't know all the facts. This is not the same as trying to sort out an incident that takes place when you are present (although to be honest, even with sibling incidents, its best to facilitate them working it out themselves than getting involved in attributing blame)

Having said that, the school are already aware that this parent acted inappropriately, as she has already spoken to them. I would ask the school whether they have a policy on how they and parents should deal with school related incidents like this and if so when this was last communicated to parents, rather than focusing a discussion on demonising this particular parent.

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 07:10:59

So basically, what you said in your last post was reasonable. smile

exoticfruits Sat 08-Dec-12 07:12:08

I don't think you need to wait and see your DC in at the door when they are 8yrs old! If there is a teacher on duty you can go. Even if you are with them until they go in I can't see why they would be glued to your side!
It appears that something happened and both parents heard it from one side only. I wouldn't make a formal complaint- just a quick word to the teacher.

EvenIfYouSeeAPoppy Sat 08-Dec-12 07:19:22

OP - I would be beyond angry with the other mother for seeing fit to physically restrain my child in order to tell him off. I would want it made very clear to her that she is NOT to touch another parent's child in that way again. By doing that, she overstepped a very serious boundary IMO. For that reason alone I would raise her behaviour with the school.

Quite apart from that, it was inappropriate of her to speak to your child before seeing the teacher and inappropriate to escalate it to the head.

LoopsInHoops Sat 08-Dec-12 07:20:07

"- she doesn't approach my son like that again (he was naughty, but he felt very intimidated by her. Wanted to cry - but no teachers in the playground at start of school" your fault then. You want him supervised before school? Supervise him.

IMO the other mum thinks your child is bullying hers. For all you know she could be under the belief this is ongoing bullying. If that were the case, could you understand her actions?

exoticfruits Sat 08-Dec-12 07:22:43

If she thinks it is long term bullying I can't see why she then thinks it OK to bully an 8yr old herself!

I would have a quiet word with the teacher and just tell DC that some parents can be a bit OTT and avoid her.

Violet77 Sat 08-Dec-12 07:26:38

On monday, go in grab her arm and physically abuse her...see how she likes it.

Alternatively go in play bloody hell that she has abused and intimidated your child. Threaten to call the police etc until they make it very clear to her. A teacher can not do this to your child, why should she? Not sure she should be allowed on school grounds.

Completely innappropriate from her, school should deal with this.

googlyeyes Sat 08-Dec-12 07:34:50

I don't think the other mother was bullying. She didn't 'grab dc by the arm' and 'shout' at him. That's a hysterical misreading of the post.

It is probably the most effective thing she could have done as OP's son is unlikely to hit her son again. Why should 8 year old's never feel a bit afraid if they have done something naughty? It's not like he was screamed at and beaten by the other mum.

As an aside it makes my teeth itch to hear a woman casually described as a stupid bitch. Fucking unnecessary. Stupid, yes. Bitch, no no no

WynkenBlynkenandNod Sat 08-Dec-12 07:40:43

She absolutely should not have done what she did, any issues she had with the situation should have been taled through with a teacher.

However, I would keep an open mind on what your son has told you OP. His version of events didn't paint him in a favourable light but better than ' I hit him then intimidated him into not telling the teacher. I wasn't quite confident that he would keep his mouth shut so I am telling you this version just in case'.

I have seen a number of parents be totally unaware of what their children are like when their parents aren't there. The schools my DC have been too have been very bad at getting to the stage of calling parents in and there's been situations where pretty much everyone else knows a child keeps being involved in incidents with other children, but the parent doesn't .

Also however well you think you know your child they have the capacity to surprise you. My DD was bullied a lot during first and middle school, she ended up in plaster. I would have sworn that having been on the receiving end he wouldn't be mean to others. But a year ago a very good friend told me she'd heard that DD and another girl were excluding another one (who had previously had her moments with DD). They had told me the reason they weren't walking to school with her was because the girl had been asked to walk with her neighbour's DD who had just started, had she heck.

exoticfruits Sat 08-Dec-12 07:40:51

Of course she was bullying- she did it because the DC was small and wouldn't fight back! She wouldn't have picked on a formidable looking adult!

cansu Sat 08-Dec-12 07:42:27

School will deal with the initial problem that the op child hit the other child. School is not responsible for the other child's mother telling off the op s child outside school. The school will not be impressed to have both mothers acting at the school because of the way they have handled this situation. Both parents should have reported the hitting to school. If the children genuinely felt it was a one off and the hit child as happy with an apology then that would probably be all that happened. The op is wrong for being happy to not report it probably because she don't want her child to get in trouble. The other mum should not have approached the children but school will only get involved if it took place on school grounds. If it was in the playground yes if not they will suggest op contacts police if she is unhappy.

Shenanagins Sat 08-Dec-12 07:44:36

Rather than go to the school and end up escalating this into something even bigger, why not talk to the other woman to find out her reasons for approaching your son in this manner.

Is it really too hard in this day and age for two adults to talk to each other without running off to tell the school as she has already done especially since the dc are supposed to be such good friends?

KittyFane1 Sat 08-Dec-12 08:01:30

Hand on shoulder is not the same as 'holding' your DC by the arm. (as in OP).
Did she scream at him or verbally abuse him? No. She told your son off and then made a complaint about him.
Misleading OP.

YABU. This woman 'wants it to stop' which implies that your DS has behaved inappropriately before. I personally would be grateful to this woman for bringing this to your attention.
YABU. She has every right to complain about your DS.

SoldierKatnissEverdeen Sat 08-Dec-12 08:07:31

Exotic- our school specifically states and reminds us regularly, that there is no teacher on duty until the doors open at 8.45am. We as parents are therefore responsible for our children until the doors open. Granted my children are not glued to me, but in eye range and therefore if a parent started walking to one of my children in this way I would be there to witness it/step in. I think in our school we are reminded due to the antics on the play equipment before and after school, but the over riding message is that we are responsible until the children go into school.

I assumed all primary schools would have similar rules?

takataka Sat 08-Dec-12 08:43:42

No wonder bullies get away with what they do, if this is the attitude of most parents

The woman did not physically or verbally abuse OPs child. She told him to stop hitting her child! And then reported to the teachers.

OP is upset because her child hit another and got told off for it, when said child was left unsupervised before school confused hmm

exoticfruits Sat 08-Dec-12 08:52:24

They do have similar rules but a teacher is on duty 10 minutes before the doors open and therefore parents are free to go, at that point.

exoticfruits Sat 08-Dec-12 08:53:06

Plus the fact that a lot of people share school runs and so are not there in the first place-another adult is.

Higgledyhouse Sat 08-Dec-12 09:20:56

If i had firm first hand evidence (seen it for myself) that my child was being bullied by another child and I felt that the school were not dealing with it properly I would not hesitate for one minute in dealing with that disgusting bully myself. (of course in a non-aggressive manner - more a firm word). Bullying is not what children do, one of hitting/pushing instances fine, completely normal but on going targetted bullying. No way. I would be straight in and no doubt pull the other parents to task too. Schools do not know everything and do not have the strategies to deal with all situations otherwise we wouldn't have situations like we do. Stand up to a bully, no better advise. I'd also encourage my child to wack the little fucker back too - call me a bad example I don't care, it works and always has. All this wishy washy bollocks the schools employ - sorry but I wouldn't be waiting around for my child's confidence and self esteem to completely destroyed.

I realise much of this is not relevant to this OP as it doesnt seem this was in fact Bullying or at least no firm evidence. I think in this situation the other parent has over reacted but I would lay money on it that she feels there is ongoing bullying going on and is probably hearing many stories from her DS. Maybe she has seen more than OP thinks.

ReallyTired Sat 08-Dec-12 09:53:18

"Tbh the one thing glaring out at me is...why did you leave your child unsupervised in the school playground before school was open? This is an absolute no-no in our school. It made him vulnerable to just this kind of thing happening. Our school is an average school as opposed to a rough one but leaving the children this way is not allowed. He's only 8 fgs. "

Many eight year olds walk to school UNACCOMPANIED. They cross roads to get to school. My son walked to school from year 4 and no one batted an eyelid or called social services.

It is perfectly acceptable to leave an eight year old unsupervised in a school playground for a couple of minutes. In fact it could be argued it is healthy to give children a bit of independence.

takataka Sat 08-Dec-12 09:53:59

I also dont think this is bullying...bit a parents mindset which is most concerned with the fact that the other mum dared to tell her dc off, is what often prevents bullies being dealt with

If my child was thumping other kids unprovoked, that is what I would be focusing on

puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE Sat 08-Dec-12 10:05:06

I would be focusing more on my child hitting others unprovoked. You don't know that this is the only incident.

I can understand the mothers reaction, although her actions are debatable. Maybe she sees your child as being dominant, and this was a worry for her as she may have foreseen a bullying relationship between the two boys. I would like to be clear that i am not calling your son a bully, i am merely stating that whilst you see one thing, friendship, she may see something else, bullying.

VivaLeBeaver Sat 08-Dec-12 10:12:34

I had similar last year with my 11yo dd.

Another parent felf her dd was being bullied by one of dd's friends and came up to her in the playground. Got hold of dd's friend's arm so she couldn't run off, shouted at dd and her friend, threatened them saying she was going to get someone to beat them up and barged into dd.

The school banned her from the premesis. She wasn't allowed in the playground, wasn't allowed to assemblies, etc.

I called the police and they took it seriously. I was asked if I wanted her charging with assault. I didn't, but the police went and spoke to her.

LoopsInHoops Sat 08-Dec-12 10:19:17

Oh, I missed the part in the OP and subsequent posts where she said the other mother had abused her DS. confused

Rollmops Sat 08-Dec-12 10:28:13

YABU.
You only know the side of the story your DC told you. It could be very different what her DC told her and from her comment 'this must stop', there could be a history of 'hitting' by your DC. Your child could be bully for all you know.
She had every right to talk to your child as it was your child that hurt her child.

Rollmops Sat 08-Dec-12 10:30:21

Higgeldyhouse - agree completely.

marriedandwreathedinholly Sat 08-Dec-12 10:32:30

To be honest OP if your dc hadn't hit her dc in the first place none of this would have happened. She shouldn't have touched your dc's arm but other than that I think she was entirely entitled to reprimand your child who had hit her for no apparent reason. Your child assaulted another. That is unacceptable. Your child has learnt there are consequences for assault. That is a very good lesson and a lesson that needs to be learnt without the politically correct pussy footing about that has become part and parcel of society. Next time, hopefully her dc will lamp yours one back of his own accord.

At primary school my ds was getting a bit of stick from an older boy. Things being taken in the playground, and he told a dinner lady my son swore in the dining hall and my son was made to stand against the wall on his word etc., and finally a pair of brand new football gloves thrown onto a first floor window sill. After a few incidents I spoke to the brat, told him I was well aware of what was happening and if anything further happened I would be reporting it straight to the head and giving her his name and the full details. He must have been 7 or 8. Nothing further happened.

marriedandwreathedinholly Sat 08-Dec-12 10:34:20

hit hers not her

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 11:06:37

OP you've said a couple of times that it was a complete one-off between good friends so clearly that makes a difference to you in how you think the incident should have been dealt with.

Have you stopped to think the other Mother feels the same?

And that because it was a complete one-off between good friends, she felt it ok to tell your child off herself?

And as for your child 'wanting to cry' because he'd been told off for hitting someone, why do you think that's a bad thing?

InNeedOfBrandyButter Sat 08-Dec-12 11:26:19

IMO this thread has got slightly ridiculous.

8yr olds fall out all time girls and boys. DC tend to push and shove and hit each other sometimes and a one off between normally good friends wouldn't have me having a go/intimidating the other child or complaining to the school. I expect the teachers wouldn't be able to teach if every shoving/hitting falling out meant the 2 sets of parents outraged at the school.

Are they really good friends normally it sounds from this ladys reaction more has happened before.

Rollmops Sat 08-Dec-12 12:32:26

How on earth do you know it's one off? Why would the other mother say 'this must stop'?

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 13:06:51

Teachers are in loco parentis when children are at school. They are responsible for managing behaviour in school by enforcing behaviour rules and teaching children to resolve conflict. If you don't trust teachers to manage behaviour and keep children safe, why on earth send them to school?

The OP's son hasn't learnt anything except that his friend's mum is a bit nuts. To be honest, if I was a 'victim' and my mum behaved like this, I would learn to keep quiet about goings on at school in future.

Rollmops Sat 08-Dec-12 13:44:32

Absolute bollocks, merrymouse. Complete gibberish.
Teachers are there to teach subjects they are hired to teach, by the looks of it, most can just cope with that. Bullying is endemic in schools, why are your so called in loco parentis not dealing with it?
The 'other mother' is not nuts, just not a wishy-washy PC push-over. She decided, and rightfully so, to stand up to the child who hit her child. I salute her. OPs DC hopefully learnt a lesson schools are too afraid to teach, that being cruel to another has consequences.

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 13:53:57

Totally agree Rollmops. I don't consider any of the adults who told me off for doing wrong when I was a kid as 'nuts'.

What is 'nuts' is how simply telling a child off for hitting yours, is now described as 'intimidating', 'threatening', 'bullying' etc... and what a tragedy it is if the little darlings shed a tear because they were simply told off.

I also think it's ironic that the OP considers it fine that the 2 kids sort it their own way, but she doesn't consider it fine when the Mother does the same thing.

Now she's made a formal complaint. Well if her son's friend had made a formal complaint in the first place instead of keeping quiet and 'sorting it their own way'...so as not to get the OP's son in the trouble, none of this would have happened.

Sounds like tit for tat really.

AmIthatTinselly Sat 08-Dec-12 13:56:53

Not sure how the other mother is "nuts". If my DC were hit I would be going to the school.

The only thing she did wrong was to hold the other child, she shouldn't have touched him.

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 15:09:46

Its nuts because she wasn't there when the incident happened and she didn't have the facts. Its nuts because she possibly made the situation worse for her own child. Its nuts because she made herself look out of control.

Going to the school to talk to the teacher and or the head teacher would be the sensible thing to do, and would give her an opportunity to resolve the situation. Of course it's better for children to be able to resolve conflict by themselves rather than to draw their parents in, whether the conflict is between siblings, friends or peers. They might need adults to help them do this. They do not need adults to march in cluelessly with all guns blazing.

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 15:25:55

The next day, the other mum called my DC, who was on the swing, over to her (before school after I had dropped off) and then holding my DC by the arm, told them that she was angry and upset with them over what they'd done to her child. That she "wanted it to stop", and that she didn't want my DC to do that to her DC again. My DC said sorry again and said it wouldn't happen again.

It sounds like she had the facts...hence the child apologising and saying it won't happen again.

How has she possibly made the situation worse for her own child because she refuses to keep quiet like her child did? Keeping quiet about it, is far more likely to have it happen again.

She made herself look 'out of control'?? Really have you actually read the words in bold up there ^^ merrymouse confused

AmIthatTinselly Sat 08-Dec-12 15:32:10

Was just going to post the same as Worra, so won't bother now grin

...but really, out of control? nuts?

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 15:44:16

She didn't have the facts because she didn't witness the incident and she hadn't spoken to the teacher or calmly spoken to both children. An angry, slightly scary, adult could accuse an 8 year old of anything and they would probably say they were sorry and it wouldn't happen again. However, assuming that this were a case of bullying, and not a one off incident, it is likely that the bullying would become worse.

If, on the other hand, as has been suggested by the OP, it were a one off incident between friends that had already been sorted out, the mother's action was pointless at best and alienated her child's friend at worst.

I am not suggesting that she should have kept quiet about it. I am suggesting that the only course of action she should have taken was to talk to her child's teacher.

My only slight caveat would be that the OP didn't witness the incident with the mother either. Perhaps the other mother did try to speak calmly to both children, but somehow failed, hence the story that has been relayed back to the OP. However, it was still wrong to approach the OP's son rather than a teacher.

exoticfruits Sat 08-Dec-12 16:03:52

It is all a mountain out of a molehill-just pop in and have a quiet word with the teacher.
Just on a side issue-my DS walked to school by himself aged 8yrs-it was 3 minutes with no road to cross. There is no need to hand an 8yr old over!

Higgledyhouse Sat 08-Dec-12 19:26:52

Merrymouse - are you for real, your posts have given me a right laugh!! Teachers know feck all bullying, I trained as a teacher and received no training what so ever on how to protect, recognise or stamp out bullying. They merely use their judgement and the resources they have which we all know are thin on the ground. Why do you think teachers are so qualified to deal with epidodes of bullying??? I am dubious that in this case bullying has actually taken place but if it has I firmly believe this mum has done exactly the right thing. My guns would be blazing too. I wouldn't rely on any teacher to stop my child being bullied and i think its absolute cobblers that this mum would have made things worse for her child. I can't stand parents that think so fucking highly of teachers, so much so they become blinkered as to basic right and wrong and all of a sudden dont have a mind of their own. All bullies deserve to be threatened, humiliated and intimated even bashed themselves if that's what it takes. When did this world become so PC. I could puke.

IAmAKnob Sat 08-Dec-12 19:34:16

TBH if some woman started ranting and raving and grabbing either of my dc I would find it very hard to not knock them the fuck out whether my dc were in the right or wrong of whatever incident.

Higgledyhouse Sat 08-Dec-12 19:48:39

What's that old saying...... If you can't take it, don't dish it out. This springs to mind. I wish teachers taught lessons like these.

Don't get me wrong. I am not condoning any adult physically hurting a child. I am completly against hitting children. I have a 6 & 4 year old and have never laid a finger on them - but a firm word to a deserving child that's ok with me.

upstart68 Sat 08-Dec-12 20:24:11

but a firm word to a deserving child that's ok with me

That's the key thing. Deserving. Too many psychos with pfb's are all too willing to jump to the wrong conclusions - can't believe their pfb could be anything more than totally innocent. Then dole out a completely unfair verbal and sometimes physical attack on a small dc and their parent.

When the truth is, they all get it wrong at some time or another. If you honestly believe your infant age dc has never upset another dc you are sadly deluded. Whether that be by hitting or kicking, or excluding or being just verbally nasty.

How would you like your dc reprimanded when they do mess up? By a neurotic type in the playground, in public where they haven't even tried to listen to their side of the story?

Or in a balanced way where it's been investigated and fairly appraised and discussed so that the dc can understand. And in private so that if a dc messes up once, he/she isn't painted as the local bully when they are clearly not.

There are two women in our playground who are known for this type of behaviour i.e. not following the proper channels and acting like vigilantes in the playground.

After the third year of it, everybody else avoids the dc and the mums like the plague.

Neither of them have perfectly behaved, kind dc.

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 20:45:47

"I trained as a teacher and received no training what so ever on how to protect, recognise or stamp out bullying."

Yes, I believe this.

Nancy66 Sat 08-Dec-12 21:05:23

I'd have done exactly the same.

Higgledyhouse Sat 08-Dec-12 21:39:31

"Teachers are responsible for teaching children how to resolve conflict"

Nope, no training in that either!!

Still laughing........

Viviennemary Sat 08-Dec-12 21:51:23

Yes it is depressing. The child who did the hitting and unprovoked aggression is the one whose mother is now making a formal complaint to the school. Why shouldn't a child be told off by a parent for hitting their child. what precious nonsense. Not saying I would do it myself but if my child got told off by his friend's parent because he had hit his friend I would say well don't hit people for no reason in future.

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 22:29:25

TBH if some woman started ranting and raving and grabbing either of my dc I would find it very hard to not knock them the fuck out whether my dc were in the right or wrong of whatever incident.

Yes, but what does that have to do with this thread Knob?

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 23:04:19

I am clearly lucky that my children attend/have attended schools where I do trust the teachers. Can't imagine sending them there otherwise.

Bit bemused by the idea that a parent giving a 'good telling off' to somebody else's child on the basis of hearsay, would improve behaviour in school when said parent has no control over the school environment, does not know what triggered the event and the only consequence they can enforce is being a bit shouty in the playground. Is it the volume of the shouting that is supposed to work the magic, or is it more a hypnotic stare that you should go for?

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 23:07:50

Can you point out a single post where the OP said the lady shouted or was a bit shouty?

Really, there's no point in adding bits in and making things up because it just takes the thread on an unnecessary tangent.

The OP hasn't even said the woman raised her voice...

merrymouse Sat 08-Dec-12 23:18:05

No she did not comment on the volume of the other child's mother's voice, probably as she wasn't there. The OP only has her child's impression of the incident, which may be one sided.

However, I am interested to know what purpose you think was served by this woman speaking to the OP's child, given that she had not at that point checked with teachers to find out what had actually happened, she was not well placed to ensure that it didn't happen again, and the child's teacher and head teacher (who could do these things) spoke to the child.

Even assuming she hadn't risen the hackles of the OP, it just seems completely pointless, apart from meeting her need to have a go at somebody.

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 23:22:34

The purpose was served by the child hopefully not thumping someone else in an unprovoked attack.

What was the point in speaking to the teachers when the OP has said her son managed to persuade the other boy to keep quiet?

It's quite simple. The boy hit her child, he wasn't even provoked, he tried to silence the child so he wouldn't be punished and the Mother (quite rightly) was having none of it.

She called him over, had a stern word (shouldn't have put her hand on his shoulder though) the boy apologised and said it wouldn't happen again.

Job's a goodun...or it would be had the OP not made a 'formal complaint'.

AgentZigzag Sat 08-Dec-12 23:29:03

'All bullies deserve to be threatened, humiliated and intimated even bashed themselves if that's what it takes.'

As someone who was bullied constantly through primary and secondary, as an adult I totally disagree with this kind of bollocks opinion.

This thread has shown that all and sundry getting involved in a ruckus between two 8 YOs is getting irate about things we only know the basic facts of - and even they might be twisted.

The rest is reading between the lines and going on the experience we have of our own children.

And that's why it has to be left to the school to sort it.

I'm like merrymouse and must be pretty lucky to have had people teaching DD1 who have common sense and who are aware of the little power games going on between the DC in their class. I'm not saying they're perfect, but I'd rather they sort it out than someone like Higgledy going off on one when she's actually got the situation completely wrong.

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 23:34:34

I'd much sooner they sorted it too AZZ but to be honest, one child silencing another isn't sorting anything.

He obviously felt wronged enough to tell his Mum, but clearly felt unable to tell the teachers at the time because the OP's son made sure he didn't.

To my mind, that's a bit worse than actually hitting someone.

No-one should accept being hit just in case the perpetrator gets in trouble for their actions.

seeker Sat 08-Dec-12 23:38:31

""I trained as a teacher and received no training what so ever on how to protect, recognise or stamp out bullying."

Wow, higeldyhouse- you must come and tell us what it was like doing teacher training in 1935................

InNeedOfBrandyButter Sat 08-Dec-12 23:39:26

If we go by what the OP has said, a one off incident is not bullying. I don't think the mother should of got involved in any sort of one off squabble as dc tend to fall out quite frequently in KS1 and 2. I would think a parent was nuts if one came into school and started telling a dc off about a one off incident.

Again IMO I think theres more to the story, but no telling a dc off for a incident your dc has told you about (and all dc can lie/embelish) is over the top.

My ds fell out with his best friend in school friday, he was grumpy all night because his best friend shoved him and broke one of his antlers off his christmas dinner hat. After questioning him about it again he let slip that he "accidently" slapped him shock now imagine if I had gone in all guns blazing at the boy because the he shoved my son and broke his antler only to be told what really went on. Thats why IME it's better to let the school deal with these things as parents do get het up and have knee jerk reactions over their dc being hurt where as the teachers have a better knowledge of certain relationships between pupils seeing them interact all day every day.

AgentZigzag Sat 08-Dec-12 23:44:00

'No-one should accept being hit just in case the perpetrator gets in trouble for their actions. '

I agree, but we don't know the situation played out as you say either grin

DD1 was having trouble with some girls she'd moved up from primary with when she started secondary not long back, and I saw one of them in the street when it was going on and really wanted to say something to her. I saw her mum five mins later and was in two minds about mentioning it to her (I know her and know she'd be horrified).

But I didn't trust the way DD had described how things happened, she can sometimes emphasise the negative side to things, and just make one up if there isn't one.

But I told the school and they had it sorted within hours of me ringing. It's not completely gone away, but it dramatically improved.

If I'd said something to the girl I would have been completely out of order. I could probably justify telling her mum, but it definitely wouldn't have got me as far and as quickly as telling the school and letting them sort it.

I was angry about the way the girl had made DD feel and it may have leaked out however hard I tried for it not to. The school didn't have that anger and dealt with it as objectively as they could (with no threats, humiliation, intimidation or giving her a wallop hmm).

WorraLorraTurkey Sat 08-Dec-12 23:51:15

AZZ I'm one of the few people going on exactly what the OP said.

The kid decided not to tell the teachers because he 'didn't want to get him into trouble'.

But he obviously felt the need to tell his Mum and quite rightly she wasn't happy.

Jeez this forum makes me feel like an old fashioned fart at times, but telling a kid to stop thumping your kid is (and always has been imo) perfectly acceptable.

So he nearly cried?

I'm nearly playing the world's smallest violin.

I showed this thread to my nearly 21yr old DS and he said if he hadn't have been told off by random parents and neighbours for his wrong doings, he would have grown into a real little shit.

I agree, when I was a kid I was mortified at being told off by other kid's parents...the difference was my parents appreciated it because they actually got through to me.

AgentZigzag Sun 09-Dec-12 00:03:15

I do see what you're saying worra, but the lad could have just mentioned it in passing to his mum, or she coaxed it out of him when he didn't really want to talk about it (for nice reasons rather than because he was intimidated into not saying). He didn't necessarily go straight home and start telling his mum because he was upset.

Thinking that your DC is being bullied or has been unjustly/randomly hit by another DC makes you feel unreasonable.

The adults telling off a DC for something they've just seen them do IMO is completely different to the emotions attached to protecting your own child.

In the village I grew up in it wasn't particularly that you got told off by adults, it was that they noticed if you did things - and then grassed you up to your parents so they'd give you a going over grin

It's just the emotion involved that I was saying about in my last post that makes the difference. It infuriates me that DD is going through the same shite I had, but I know for sure that she's in a better place than me because schools are more effective at dealing with it.

FFS they've got an 'inclusion unit' at her school shock What I would have given for one of them at the schools I went to!

WorraLorraTurkey Sun 09-Dec-12 00:05:21

They have all sorts of units in my DS's school

All they're short of is an angry parent/jaded teacher unit and I'm not ruling that one out for the future grin

AgentZigzag Sun 09-Dec-12 00:08:34

I'm sure they could find a kind philanthropist to donate a generous supply of wine and chocolate for it grin

InNeedOfBrandyButter Sun 09-Dec-12 00:09:52

If a parent saw a child hurt there dc in the park for example then yes telling off that dc is reasonable and what I'd do, or even the school play ground if it was in front of me. The bit about this what I really don't like is the other parent told of the ops dc with only what her ds told her and all dc lie and embellish at some point.

WorraLorraTurkey Sun 09-Dec-12 00:15:31

But in this case there were no lies told...the OP has said that.

I understand that there could have been and I certainly don't recommend parents taking these things into their own hands Brandy.

Personally I would have gone straight to the school.

But the woman chose to deal with it her own way...just as the OP was cool with the kids dealing with it their own way (when it favoured her son).

She told the boy off

Now the OP has made an official complaint....and that smacks of hypocrisy to me.

Itsaboatjack Sun 09-Dec-12 00:57:12

I'm surprised by the number of people who have said they would also go and tell the child off. My dd is 8 and has a couple of times come home and said so and so has hit her, I didn't feel the need to get involved. I asked her in more detail what happened, how she dealt with it, how she felt, maybe given her some advice on how to deal with similar incidents in the future. If I thought it was more serious and needed some follow up I would go and speak to either the parent or a teacher.

If I was there and saw something happen I may say something, but if it was a one off, as this seems to be, and they sorted it between them, which they also seem to have then I would stay out of it.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Sun 09-Dec-12 01:16:08

There is something that somebody is not telling you/us. I seriously doubt this is the full story.

How odd, that your child should suddenly and unprovoked hit his friend and the two children together decide not to tell anybody to prevent your child from getting into trouble.

It smacks too much of "let this be our little secret, and lets not tell anybody what we just did, ok?"

And how odd that the other child decided to tell his mum after all.

And how odd that your son would suddenly do something "out of character" yet straight away know he had done wrong and collude with the injured party to not tell. That sounds quite manipulative.

To be perfectly honest, I believe you believe your son, but I also believe that your son could be telling you the version of events which would be less likely to put him into big trouble, ie telling you something less favourable, but not as horrible as the full truth. (Similar psychology to what we often see on relationship threads around here, that a cheating partner will tell as much as he/she thinks he can get away with) This is not uncommon. If you dig a little deeper, with your own son, you may find out what really happened.

The other mother? She might have been at the end of her tether. Very unlikely that she would take matter into her own hands at "first offence".

More likely that she has complained to the school at numerous occasions before, nothing has happened, there has been no consequence to your son, you have not been informed, so she decided to ensure you were informed. By approaching your son direct she would get both his and your attention.

I suggest you listen, without going in all guns blazing.

Meanwhile, please deal with your own child, aged 8, it is about time the learn that you dont hit other children. A very difficult lesson both to teach and learn.

(I have two sons, one who frequently gets into trouble, hits and sometimes lies to cover up (very believable!) and one who never gets into trouble but stays far away from children who play rough games, and hit others)

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Sun 09-Dec-12 01:20:22

Actually, my son witnessed some awful behaviour from a parent the other week.

There is a little boy in reception who is nearly deaf, and he speaks really loudly.

The parent in question possibly did not know about the boys hearing impairment, as suddenly in the school playground, he sat down, restrained the little boy by placing his hands on the boys shoulders and said really loudly and angrily up in to the boys face "Do you always have to SHOUT!" My son was just a bystander, and he was terrified. Now, that was OTT behaviour. angry

exoticfruits Sun 09-Dec-12 07:25:41

It is a shame that someone didn't explain that 'yes he did'- it might make her feel bad and think first.

Higgledyhouse Sun 09-Dec-12 08:20:04

Seeker - thank you, my point exactly! I did my teacher training in 2005, 7 years ago in London. Not a single lecture, tutorial or case study was shared concerning bullying. Frightening isn't it considering the terrible impact bullying can have on a child/adult. Why do some parents feel that teachers are so qualified in this area? Of course as in all professions some will be more experienced than others.

All I am saying is that at the end of the day teachers are human beings with their own ideas/values about children's behaviour. What one teacher will view as merely 'girls being girls' another will take more seriously. There is very little consistency and most of the time they do not witness events as in this case so I feel will make a judgment of a situation based on their knowledge of the children involved - for example their normal behaviours in class etc. However, we all know how clever and manipulative children can be.

I agree that before any parent approaches another, of course the school need to be given an opportunity to resolve matters in an amicable way. This goes without saying and is basic common sense. But going back to my first post, when a parent has first hand evidence of on-going bullying, where the schools approach has had little effect I would most definately without hesitation have a firm word with the child, especially at 8 years old. I would also talk to the parents. I would not be aggressive or raise my voice but I would be firm. This is not the same as carelessly taking matters in to your own hands like a nutter in the playground.

In my experience a schools approach can be quite long winded and low impact. Very sad for the children and extremely frustrating for the parents who are desperately trying to help their child. I really feel that many posters on this thread are posting from a very logical stance. I get that, really I do but when your child is being bullied, actually bullied, I would not judge any parent who takes a slightly more direct approach.

bamboostalks Sun 09-Dec-12 09:41:42

Since when is hitting someone once or twice being a bully? Bullying is surely systematic and continual abuse. Some very OTT reactions here. Lots of children are bullied and become bullies, it's a common experience but that doesn't make us all experts. It's absolutely horrible but there are many parents on here who seem to want to demonise children. It could be your child who is he bully one day you know.

simplesusan Sun 09-Dec-12 10:47:38

I think the parent was correct to go to the teacher.
I think she was wrong to approach your child though.
I think there is something either or both children are not telling.

seeker Sun 09-Dec-12 11:05:56

higgldy house- please don't quote me as a supporter. If you really are a teacher, I am horrified that you are coming here saying things like " I wouldn't rely on any teacher to stop my child being bullied and i think its absolute cobblers that this mum would have made things worse for her child. I can't stand parents that think so fucking highly of teachers, so much so they become blinkered as to basic right and wrong and all of a sudden dont have a mind of their own. All bullies deserve to be threatened, humiliated and intimated even bashed themselves if that's what it takes. When did this world become so PC. I could puke."

JamieandtheMagiTorch Sun 09-Dec-12 11:52:04

GoldQint

Excellent post

I too have seen both sides of this particular coin

Rollmops Sun 09-Dec-12 14:02:17

AgentZigzag to quote you: ''All bullies deserve to be threatened, humiliated and intimated even bashed themselves if that's what it takes.'

As someone who was bullied constantly through primary and secondary, as an adult I totally disagree with this kind of bollocks opinion...""

Don't you think that herein lies the reason for you being constantly bullied?

Weakness and meekness only too often invites deep dislike in otherwise non-aggressive people. There's something about door-mat-type behavior that raises the hackles in most of us.

By standing up and giving like for like is still the best defense against bullying.

merrymouse Sun 09-Dec-12 16:00:58

Weakness and meekness only too often invites deep dislike in otherwise non-aggressive people. There's something about door-mat-type behavior that raises the hackles in most of us.

No, I would say that thankfully this is not true of most people.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 09-Dec-12 16:08:31

I think what rollmops said can be true of children and teenagers behaviour towards others,pack mentality etc. But not always. I was anything but weak and meek, I was confident and well spoken and was still bullied for a couple of years at school.

Zavi Sun 16-Dec-12 20:30:53

Update:

Following my complaint to the school this is what happened:

I and my OH went to discuss the matter with the Head of the (Junior) school. Head of Junior School said we take this "very seriously and I have already referred the matter up to the (whole school) Headteacher". (The school is both a primary and a secondary school).

Whole-school Headteacher felt that the other parent had acted inappropriately and was concerned to ensure that parents with children at the school understood that this type of behaviour was unacceptable.

In the end of term newsletter that went out to every parent in the school (at the same time as the Autumn school reports went out) the Headteacher informed parents that it was inappropriate for parents to speak directly to students in matters concerning behaviour or discipline. That to do so was "intimidating and frightening" for the students and "didn't do any good" as it would only lead to an "escalation of matters" and that the school were "able to deal with these matters appropriately" and that parents needed to "trust the school" to do so.

In my case it didn't lead to "an escalation between parents". I went to the school.

Im very pleased that the school have dealt with this matter so quickly and that they have now got clear guidelines in place for parents of students: Basically:

If your child has got an issue with another child. Don't Take it upon yourself to sort it out. Talk to the school first.

Rollmops Sun 16-Dec-12 20:38:27

Typical head-in-sand behavior by the school, ignore the hitting and send out pointless newsletters.
Pray tell, was you DC punished for his/her actions as he/she should have had?
I do hope that next time your precious DC whacks someone, that that someone's parent has enough wits to complain to the head.

Fakebook Sun 16-Dec-12 20:41:14

Pray tell, was you DC punished for his/her actions as he/she should have had?

^ ^ Love it!

takataka Sun 16-Dec-12 20:46:37

Also interested to hear the consequences for the 'hitter'

and also, was the parent spoken to directly, or just the indirect note in the news letter?

trueblood1fan Sun 16-Dec-12 20:49:38

agree - you seem more concerned that a parent placed her hand on your dc than why your dc is bullying/hitting other dc? what punishment have you/the school doled out?! i actually feel for the other poor child that was whalloped.

Was your son traumatised by her talking to him? Sounds to me like she was at the end of her tether. She shouldn't have spoken to him no, but i get the feeling this has probably happened before and you are only getting one side of this story.

Hopefully you can now go onto the important matter of your kid whacking someone who is supposed to be his friend, unprovoked, and then trying to cover it up by manipulating him into not telling any Adults?

PessaryPam Sun 16-Dec-12 20:57:27

Always get your retaliation in first, this is what these people do. Don't be surprised.

misterwife Sun 16-Dec-12 21:14:11

I don't see anything wrong with her bollocking your DC if your DC has hit her DC. Why do some parents think they, and only they, can discipline their DC? That's not how the real world works, I'm afraid.

She is definitely being U, however - she has escalated the issue to senior staff members without discussing it with you. I know that that would make me very angry indeed.

Rollmops Sun 16-Dec-12 21:19:48

Read the OP, misterwife. It was OP who escalated the issue to the head.
You see, her DC hit another child, unprovoked and then tried to hush it up. The parent of the child who got hit had a serious discussion with the hitter.
OP didn't like it as her DC was traumatised by telling-off for hitting, so she complained to the head.
Ludicrous. Yes.

Zavi Sun 16-Dec-12 21:58:52

My DC acknowledged the hurt he caused immediately (read my OP).

These two guys had a history of getting on really well. Great friends. No bullying (by either DC).

As far as they are concerned everything is as usual now.

However, I would never again ask my DC's "victim" to come to our house for a play date!

Shame.

trueblood1fan Sun 16-Dec-12 22:09:50

so what punishment did he recieve? my ds would tell me about this sort of incident as he wants to get in there first. but he is still punished. if youve allowed him to escape punishment i do so hope the school excluded him from lessons for such violence?! although other dc mother should not have touched your child but does sound like she was at the end of her tether at this situation. & how is the "victim" as you call him?

flaggybannel Sun 16-Dec-12 23:04:33

This thread struck a cord with me as recently, another parent at my dc school took it upon herself to use her dc's facebook to ask other kids for my dc's mobile number, then called my dc out of the blue, ranting , raving, swearing, threating violence and spouting lots of bile down the phone to my dc for something that my dc had not done- or known anythin about until this woman called.
Fair to say i was stunned.
I quickly investigated further to find that this woman has form for this sort of thing and has done the same thing to other dc's. Her dc is well known to teachers and others for being attention seeking a loves 'drama'. Unbelievable.
The matter is now resolved- i had words with her personally. <rather evil smiley face>
My dc will not recieve a call like this from that woman again. She has been reported to the school to say the least.
Just who does anyone think they are to threaten or discipline someone elses child? If they have issues with your children they should speak to the school or the parents.
I havent read the whole thread but as for holding on to your child- i am gobsmacked. Words fail me.

PoppyPrincess Sun 16-Dec-12 23:35:02

I'm glad to hear that the school have taken it seriously.
I agree that the child should be punished but kids hit each other, they fall out etc, it doesn't necessarily make then a bad kid. I was bullied through high school but wasn't once hit by them, it was sly comments, laughing about me with their friends etc. I'm sure at times me and my friends probably hit each other at some point but it was in no way bullying, probably more just messing around.

My DS has only just started nursery school but already I can see that a lot of the mums are a bit rough and I could imagine some of them probably wouldn't give disciplining another person's child a second thought. No matter what my child may or may not have done if somebody I didn't know so much as touched my child I'd be furious! If they have an issue they should speak to the parent and let them discipline them how they see fit.
I don't like it if somebody even says to my son ''that's naughty''. Personally I don't like that word, I chose to say ''we don't do that'' or ''no that's not acceptable''. It should be down to the parent to chose how a child is disciplined.

LittleMissKitschmas Mon 17-Dec-12 04:55:34

To be fair, if another parent took it upon themselves to attempt to discipline my child I'd be annoyed and they would know it, be it politely. If there's a grievance take it to the school. To take it up with a child you don't know is bullying, regardless of all the 'village' bullshit spouted on here. On school premises, the school staff are in charge, not some woman with a personal vendetta. She should not have approached the child directly. The other parent, by all means. To me this just smacks of alpha parenting, with her 'qualifications' in child wrangling she probably wanted the entire playground to see her superior skills.

I'm damn lucky that for all their grumpiness at home my two are good at school. My kids have only ever been on the receiving end of playground crap, and we dealt with it the right way, by going trough ten proper channels within school.

Saying that, I do think 'circle time'/'restorative practice' is utter bilge!grin

Caveat: the post has been fuelled by insomnia, light fever and a stubbornly snuffly baby. Any and all spelling, grammar and continuity errors are to be blamed entirely on them!

Coralanne Mon 17-Dec-12 05:38:21

When my DD was 9 or 10 a girl sitting beside her kept kicking her chair. After asking her about 10 times not to do it, DD then asked the substitute teacher if he could ask her to stop.

Apparently (I wasn't there) the teacher quite sternly told the other girl to stop doing it and get on with her work.

At the end of the school day, DD went straight to her dance classes in the school grounds.

Apparently the other girl came out of class, saw her Mother waiting for her and promptly burst into tears and gave her mother some garbled story about what happened.

The mother interrupted the dance class "Like an avenging Angel" so the dance teacher said. Dragged my DD out of her lesson and started shouting at her.

Dance teacher ordered the mother out of her building, sat my DD down, gave her a hug and a drink and when I arrived told me what had happened.

After comforting DD and having a long talk, I decided that it wasn't worth the effort to confront the other family as it was getting close to the end of year and DD was changing schools for the following year.

I still occasionally see this mother but I just stare straight through her.

Zavi Mon 17-Dec-12 08:35:59

My DC was punished. He got told off: by the other DC, by the other DC's mother, by the class teacher, by the junior school teacher, by me, by his Dad.

I would like to have told other DC off for not having escalated the matter to a teacher in the first place. However, he chose not to do that (and I personally would never approach someone else's DC over a matter that I had not witnessed myself.)

The reason why the other DCs mother had a go at my DC I think is because: she couldn't rely on her own DC to escalate matters to a teacher because her DC chose not to - he didn't want to get my DC into trouble.

Whilst the matter was done and dusted between the boys with apologies having been made and accepted, the mother was still fuming about it.

Btw the school called the mother in to discuss the matter following my complaint. Mother was told her behavior towards my DC was unacceptable and a "note to file" has been made in relation to the other mother. If she behaves like that again she will be banned from the campus. If she does it again after that her child will be removed from the school.

Higgledyhouse: this other mother's DC hurt another child previously (leaving marks on the body). Other mother would not allow the mother of the child who had been hurt to "discuss the matter" with her DC - she wanted to discipline her child herself. So she treated my DC in a way that she didn't want her own DC to be treated. She dished out what she couldn't take herself.

Zavi Mon 17-Dec-12 08:49:09

Coralanne: I would have complained to the school if anyone treated my child like that (what was she telling your child off FOR anyway?).

With no complaint this other parent will think that that kind of behaviour is acceptable - and may do it to another child in the future.

I would have felt duty-bound, almost, to have made a compliant about that kind of behaviour.

takataka Mon 17-Dec-12 09:26:58

I would like to have told other DC off for not having escalated the matter to a teacher in the first place

The reason why the other DCs mother had a go at my DC I think is because: she couldn't rely on her own DC to escalate matters to a teacher because her DC chose not to - he didn't want to get my DC into trouble

Whilst the matter was done and dusted between the boys with apologies having been made and accepted, the mother was still fuming about it

I find your perception of the situation (as above) really wrong. being 'done and dusted' amongst 8 year old boys doesn mean that things have been settled in a fair manner and be left alone. The other mother wasnt still angry because she couldnt rely on her own DC hmm, she was angry because your dc thumped hers, and had no consequence!!

I wouldn't want my dc to come to yours for playing; I wouldnt trust you to protect my dc or treat them fairly

ArtexTheHallWithBoughsOfMonkey Mon 17-Dec-12 09:35:08

There's a mother at my dd's school who thinks our dds are 'friends'

I am constantly in talking to the class teacher about her child, because she is aggressive, possessive, domineering and manipulative to my dd. so far this year she has kicked her, strangled her and spat in her face. She falls out with her and calls her names if she plays with anyone else. She will not leave my dd alone. My dd is a kind little girl and will not tell her to fuck off.

Perception is everything.

trueblood1fan Mon 17-Dec-12 09:49:07

ok, so you told him off - big whoop - what punishment did the you/the school give him or is he to precious to be punished?! your ds was really out of order but you seem to hell bent on putting all the blame on this other mother who obviously cant come & discuss with you as you dont do anything about it?! your ds wouldnt be welcome at my home but the other lad would.

ReallyTired Mon 17-Dec-12 09:57:36

Btw the school called the mother in to discuss the matter following my complaint. Mother was told her behavior towards my DC was unacceptable and a "note to file" has been made in relation to the other mother. If she behaves like that again she will be banned from the campus. If she does it again after that her child will be removed from the school.

I'm pleased to hear that the mad bitch has had her umuppance. Bullying is unacceptable whether its done by adults or children.

The school has reminded all parents that there is a CORRECT proceedure for dealing with bullying by children. I think the letter shows that the school will do whatever necessary to protect the children. I would be surprised if they can legally exclude a child whose parent repeatly misbehaves. That seems an empty threat.

Zavi Mon 17-Dec-12 10:49:18

My son didn't cause any skin marks, there were no tears, no teacher was involved, the other child chose not to tell a teacher, my son apologised, the 2 DC carried on playing with each other. Yes, I call that done and dusted.

I allow my DC to make mistakes. I was pleased that he apologised to the other DC without needing to be told to do that.

I also allow other DC to make mistakes. There have been several incidences this term where my DC has been hurt by other DC and the teacher has got involved.

I wouldn't dream of approaching another child over any incident that takes place at school though (not least because I wouldn't have witnessed it)!

I think this other mum's approach towards my son was aggressive. I think she set out to intimidate my son and she succeeded! I think that the way she treated my DC was disproportionate and far worse than the way my DC treated her DC.

I think what this mother should have done was to remind her DC that, when hurt by another child, it NEEDS to be reported to a teacher, even if her DC would prefer not to do that. Then I think the mother should have informed the school about what had happened so that both DC could be asked by a teacher to give an account of the incident.

On the contrary I think I handled the situation far better than the other mother who works privately as a Child Psychologist. I could have had a go at the mother for intimidating my DC but I chose not to. I'm aware that our children bring out our deepest emotions and it was a situation that I wanted to "respond" to rationally, not "react" to. I also took the approach I did because I wanted the mother to realise that she can not continue to conduct herself in that way. I also wanted to ensure that she didn't treat other DC in that way.

Obviously I wouldn't allow my son to go on a play-date with this child again because I think the mum is over-protective, aggressive and treats other children in ways that she wouldn't like her own children to be treated.

trueblood1fan Mon 17-Dec-12 11:23:10

no marks so no punishment - sigh :-\

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