To say we can’t afford to visit DF’s family at Christmas

(294 Posts)
Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 14:48:19

My DF ( fiancé) is pretty hopeless with money and so I have been nagging him for ages to prepare a list of his incomings/ outgoings so that we can prepare a joint budget. I have also been nagging him to check his finances before committing to things, rather than just spending the money and asking me to bail him out. He is not good at living within his means, which I realise is unlikely to ever change as he is 46!

He has now just texted me with the conclusion that we should not go to Holland for Christmas as it would be cheaper to stay at home ( he doesn’t get paid time off anyway).

I have texted back to say we will discuss it tonight. I feel really mean to agree with him, and let him spend Christmas without his family and friends but it would be a lesson to him about working out what you can afford before making plans ( we just went to Holland a week ago for his birthday – he booked the wrong flights and so lost 2 days wages as a result, and spent £200 hosting a party in a bar for his friend).

I am a bit annoyed with him about money anyway as he has been in a low paid call centre (£9/ hour) job since he moved to London in the spring – despite promising to look for something in his field and at a professional salary comparable to the job he left ( her hasn’t put much effort into this), and he is disorganised about giving me money towards the bills ( no rent as I pay the mortgage on my flat) and I have been asking him for months to set up a weekly standing order/ direct debit to me, as he is paid weekly and his budgeting skills are poor.

I feel really mean saying we can’t afford to go to see his family, but in the end I think this might be a lesson learned for him. He never saves anything for a rainy day. I have just had to spend my rainy day fund on some unexpected building work and so don’t have funds to bail him out. Should I agree with him we can’t afford the trip at Christmas or be kind and pay for it?

Be kind to yourself and work out if nannying him for the rest of his life is what you want. I couldn't stand this in a 20 year old, never mind a 40+ man.

kate2boysandabump Thu 06-Dec-12 14:53:44

You already know the answer to your question. The bigger question is do you want to spend your life with a 40something child?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 14:53:48

Unfortunately he is the love of my life and I absolutely adore him, His attitude to his career/ finances is something I realise I will just have to accept ( we have been to relate about this – the therapist is helping us work on a strategy for the future). He is not perfect, but then I am certainly not either...

MissCellania Thu 06-Dec-12 14:54:16

I remember you. Are you still coddling this man child?

TheSecondComing Thu 06-Dec-12 14:56:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 14:56:15

I don’t know the answer to my question – I think I should let him suffer the consequences of his actions, but I feel very unkind not helping him out given that he has left his home country solely to be with me ( e.g. not for career etc)

I left my, considerably further, home country to be with my DH. I didn't realise that entitled me to be looked after, paid for and treated all the home. He went home one week ago FFS. LTB.

ImperialSantaKnickers Thu 06-Dec-12 15:00:35

I hear what you're saying about 'love of your life', but if he won't pull his finger out to do things that he has previously promised to do - like find a job commensurate with his skills - then are you really 'the love of his life'? He does seem to be treating you as a free home with added benefits...

About the only positive I can see is that it was him who realised that going to Holland this Christmas was not affordable.

WilsonFrickett Thu 06-Dec-12 15:02:49

I remember you too.

Why are you upset because he's come to the correct conclusion?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 15:13:39

I am upset he has come to the correct conclusion because I am quite neurotic and want everyone to like me – in particular his fruiends and family, and I am worried they will “blame” me that they don’t see him at Christmas.

Maybe doing some work on yourself so that you can value yourself a bit more would be a good idea. If they know him well, they will blame his disorganisation, poor money skills and selfishness for not seeing him at Christmas. You would too if you could only see it.

Bunbaker Thu 06-Dec-12 15:26:49

By helping him out you are enabling his pathetic behaviour. He is 46 FGS and should be responsible enough by now. As long as he has you to bail him out every time he needs some money he is never going to start behaving responsibly.

Stay at home this year. And if they ask why you haven't visited them tell them that their dear, darling son has frittered away is money on other things. If he wants to see his family he needs to grow up and start saving.

Sorry but his attitude towards money would be a deal breaker for me.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 15:28:20

Thank you Mrs Pratchett – yes, you are right that they do know him well and so know how disorganised and bad with money he is. I do see that he is being very selfish by expecting me to bail him out. His behaviour is also (MN bingo) very “entitled”, and so I have resolved to myself that I am not bailing him out anymore, and he has to live with the consequences of his decisions ( eg if he didn;’t fritter his money on little things like coffees out, lunches, drinks in the pub, he’s have money for the big things like holidays

verlainechasedrimbauds Thu 06-Dec-12 15:35:13

Don't pay for him to go. Celebrate the fact that he has, for once, come to the correct conclusion. If you would like to help him (which it sounds as if you would), why not praise him for coming to this conclusion and tell him how helpful it is to you and how encouraging it is to see him facing up to his responsibilities and liabilities.

If his family want to see him and you that much and you can't afford to go, then they could fund it (though I don't see why they should).

You do need to work on your own self esteem though because this really could become a big problem in your relationship and lead to resentment between you. It's ok to put your foot down. The world won't fall apart. The fact that this time you didn't need to put your foot down is a cause for relief (and a little jig of joy) not doubt and heartache!

WilsonFrickett Thu 06-Dec-12 15:36:37

According to your post, he doesn't expect you to bail him out, he's already decided you can't afford to go. Why are you even discussing it? Agree with him and grow a pair while you're at it You have to stop enabling him. Is your self-esteem so low that you require your DP's distant family to bolster it? Is that what this relationship is doing to you?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 15:39:44

I remember you posting about this bloke before. Wasn't the grand plan that he was going to find some better paid work so that you were more equal financial partners?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 15:40:07

But in answer to your question, no don't bail him out. He has to learn to live with the consequences.

expatinscotland Thu 06-Dec-12 15:40:42

Wow! Kick him out, I'll move in with you and be the love of your life so you can keep me. Sounds fab! He's a cocklodger. He's not going to learn anything, he already has, that he can rely on your to finance him rent and bills free in exchange for cocklodging. He's already on to a winner, why on Earth change?

sommewhereelse Thu 06-Dec-12 15:49:04

We couldn't afford to go to my home country last Christmas and not because of being irresponsible with finances. We went to a couple of weddings there in the autumn so as a result we couldn't go later in the year.

Unless there's someone who is old or ill and it's possibly their last Christmas, it's not that big a deal.

On the bright side, it may be a lesson learnt for him and also it's his first Christmas since living in the UK so he may actually enjoy it more than being at home. It's fun to celebrate Christmas in different ways.

honeytea Thu 06-Dec-12 16:06:59

How expensive would the trip be? Is it just a case of paying for flights and then staying with his family?

Were you thinking of buying him a christmas present? Could you put the money that you were going to spend on that towards a flight?

I really think you have left it very very late to be booking fights around Christmas, my family booked flights 6 weeks ago from the UK to Sweden and they were already 3x the price of a normal flight. Have you looked into how much a flight to holland would actually cost?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 16:45:01

The flioghts will be about £150.

The booking flights at the last minute is another thing ( I like to book way in advance, he leaves it to the last minute).

The trip won’t be too expensive – flight and staying with family, but it always ends up getting expensive with eating out, buying hostess gifts etc

I was thinking of buying him a Christmas present – and would normally spend about £100, but I don’t think paying for his flight is sending the right message. I think he needs to work out a budget and if he wants to go to Holland, he needs to cut back on expenses beforehand to be able to afford it.

Are you going to put up with bad money management, poor planning and a partner with a crappy job (when they can do better) for your whole marriage? Is there a line in the sand? What is the line in the sand?

expatinscotland Thu 06-Dec-12 16:52:26

He's 46-years-old! You'd think he was in 6th form from these posts.

You are soooo wrong expat. grin When I was 18, I planned for trips home and paid for them myself. I would pitch this at about 12 years old.

TheLightPassenger Thu 06-Dec-12 16:55:04

Agree with the others, but I don't see what's wrong with a partner doing a £9 per hour job if they are paying a fair share of the food/bills etc.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 16:56:10

Mrs Pratchett

We split up over these issues 8 years ago, but in the last 8 years he has been my touchstone and I have compared every other man to him. Since we got back together last year, we have been going to relate, and I have some separate sessions with the relate counsellor – her view is that given I want this relationship to work, I need to accept he is no good at financial management and take over this (to the point of setting a budget and giving us” both pocket money”.

I am trying to make a stand about the poor money management and planning now – I am trying to draw a line in the sand, if you have any suggestions how I can do this, in addition to not bailing him out, I would really like to hear them and I will try them out.

expatinscotland Thu 06-Dec-12 16:58:28

Touchstone?

Good grief!

I'm going to have to walk away from this one, way too melodramatic and silly for me.

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 16:59:29

But he still has not given you the financial info. So yet can't do what the counselor said. Guessing ha has debts, hosting £200 parties on £9 per hour

Are you a similar age to him, Ambivalence. I will say that you sound younger. Love of my life and touchstone are quite teenage phrases.

My lines in the sand would be, complete financial disclosure, you don't pay his bills or debt, he contributes fairly to the household, if you take over the budgeting he does a commensurate amount of housework to balance this time. Those would be mine. Oh, and don't moan about your shit job if you are unwilling to change it. If that wasn't working, I'd LTB.

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:03:02

Financially incontinent...I would seriously step away

TheLightPassenger Thu 06-Dec-12 17:04:15

But would he be willing to let you manage the money, including his wages? or does he expect all his wages to be used for luxuries for him? If you think that he has such marvellous qualities that they outweigh him making any attempt to pay a fair share then I guess that's your look out. But make sure you don't run up any debts/credit cards in your name.

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:06:48

He isn't letting her manage the money she is "nagging" him to let her but he isn't playing ball despite counselor advice.

Can't see this changing!

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 17:07:48

Yes I remember now - aren't you planning to have a baby with this guy? Was there some issue about how the wedding was going to be paid for as well?

OP seriously - no-one can advise you as long as you are prepared to let this guy take the piss out of you. Clearly you are desperate to be with him, he knows that and therefore has no impetus to change.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 17:08:47

The point is the £9/ hour job does not allow him to contribute equally to the finances. Particularly in zone 1 of London. I earn 3 times that amount, but as I am paying all almost all the bills, the mortgage, etc I have less of a disposable income. I have asked him to pay half the regular bills ( gas, elec, council tax etc) which works out as £400/ month –which is a VERY low estimate as it isn’t including a lot of things. He has trouble covering that in time – he could not manage to pay half our real costs of living. Given he takes home £300 a week, and pays £50 for a travel card and then half the shopping bill, I think a £100 a week contribution is more than fair – his disposable income is probably more than mine...(certainly he spends more on himself than I do)

"He has trouble covering that in time – he could not manage to pay half our real costs of living." Do you see that you are making excuses for him and minimising? He CHOSE not to prioritise this, he DECIDED to party not pay the bills.

verlainechasedrimbauds Thu 06-Dec-12 17:11:16

The flight to Holland is a bit of a red herring isn't it? He's said he can't afford it so you should be thinking "good, at last he is getting the message".

Or is it that you think he has said this knowing that you will feel guilty and sorry for him and therefore pay for you both to go?

I'm sorry if this seems harsh and critical, but your replies are a bit exasperating! If you really, honestly believe that your future is with this fellow and you are willing to accept him, warts and all then you need to work really, really hard at making yourself much tougher and stop worrying about upsetting people. There is no way on earth you will both survive otherwise.

Also, differences in the way couples manage money are a very common reason for relationships to founder. Believe me, it's very tough - even when you love someone a lot.

TheLightPassenger Thu 06-Dec-12 17:13:33

but if he earns £300 per week, he could afford to give you £100 per week if he wanted to. Even if he earns more, if he is stingy with his own money, the base problem still remains, that he's not bothered about paying a fair share of the bills.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 17:13:50

If his disposable income is more than yours, then he should contribute more.

honeytea Thu 06-Dec-12 17:14:02

If I were you and I could afford it and I wanted to go I'd pay for both of us.

I remember your thread about wanting to TTC but him being a bit useless with money, I think if you are going along the lines of accepting his useless budgeting as a sort of exchange for him moving to the UK then you should just except (with gritted teeth) this mistake and next year get him to book and pay for the tickets in march.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 17:15:07

Also - how can you bear to be with a man who would rather play the generous host in front of his friends, than give his future WIFE a fair share towards joint living expenses?

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:17:50

Why haven't you got the same amount of disposal income? You are supposed to be giving him pocket money, you earn more than him and he has more spending money than you...get real!

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:20:48

Who paid the £200 bar bill at the party

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 17:20:50

Yes,I am desperate to be with him, which he knows, so he has no impertus to change. The only leverage I have is to insist on a weekly contribution of £100 for the bills and let him have to miss out if he can’t afford things.
He has no money to go to his work christmas drinks tomorrow so he is not going. I think he is coming to the realisation that I am not going to bail him out.
He doesn;t have any debts, he has always lived very hand to mouth though,so no savings either – money runs through his fingers like water.
Yes, I posted about how our wedding is being paid for – it is being paid for by my mother, I am covering the alchol and flowers. He is not contributing anything. The deal was that he would be paying for the honeymoon. He hasn’t saved a penny towards it, and when I have challenged him on this, the response is “ I only earn £9/ hour so what am I supposed to save it from”.
His plan is to ask his mother to pay for it ( both he and his brother thinkthis is the solution to their financial problems – his brother’s wife is the breadwinner too so DF thinks this is a normal state of affairs.
He seems to be realising he needs a better paid job ( only has taken 9 months of nagging!)

i am sorry if my responses are exasperating I don't mean to be. I am finding all your comments really useful.

lucidlady Thu 06-Dec-12 17:22:59

He's a waster. Are you sure you want to have a child with this man?

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:25:28

Do not marry him. He cannot be bothered to pay a penny to you wedding. Tells you all you need to know.

How old are you?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 17:25:29

I am 35.

I am ashamed to say that as he didn’t have the £200 (240 Euros) to pay the bar bill at the party, I paid it, and as i was a bit tipsy at the time I said it could be his birthday present from me! After sobering up, I changed my mind ( and I know it is not good to go back on your word) and said that it was his party and he had to pay for it, and I would buy him a “ proper” ( and much cheaper) present. He hasn’t given me this money yet ( 2 weeks later), but I have told him I need it by Saturday.

I really regret paying the bar bill – I have been brought up in a very different (Indian) culture where it is very important not to lose face in front of other people, and so couldn’t face up to him scrabbling around asking the guests to lend him money.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 17:26:22

I genuinely cannot understand how you can have any respect for him.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 17:27:14

x-posts.

Dear God. What an absolute wanker.

ENormaSnob Thu 06-Dec-12 17:27:15

Fgs he is pathetic.

Wake up.

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:28:06

He is a total loser and you keep bailing him out. You know you won't get any of that 200 back

diddl Thu 06-Dec-12 17:28:11

I find it hard to see how an adult can be bad with money.

You earn X, you have to pay out Y!

So he can´t afford to go see his parents-big fucking deal.

Your mother is paying for your wedding?

Dear lord, has he no self respect?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 17:29:25

Yes, plenty of people told me when I was younger not to marry him, but the problem is I love him, and have never felt the same about anyone else. Yes, it does tell me all I need to know that he won’t stump up a penny for the wedding.

I am losing respect for him due to this behaviour

Euphemia Thu 06-Dec-12 17:29:28

Sod that for a game of soldiers.

My DH is 46 and has been responsible for his own finances since he was 18. He hasn't once been in debt, has never needed an overdraft, and other than a mortgage he has never borrowed money from anyone. He has often gone without things in the short term to make things easier in the long term. That's adult behaviour - you are dealing with a child.

Pandemoniaa Thu 06-Dec-12 17:29:50

He may be the love of your life but I wonder how long it'll be before you stop viewing him with such unqualified ardour and start to resent him. Because it occurs to me that he hasn't given up so very much - sure, he's moved countries but Holland is hardly a world away - given how very much he gets from you in the way of material support.

I think you probably do need to agree about not going to Holland for Christmas. Or not if you are going to be paying for the trip. I'd not give what people might think about you a second thought because actually, it's not you who can't be arsed to clutter their head with learning to budget, is it? At 46 he must have lead a rather charmed life up to now unless all his girlfriends have been equally prepared to tolerate his disinterest in being financially responsible.

Euphemia Thu 06-Dec-12 17:31:58

I don't imagine Golden Boy has a pension either?

TalkativeJim Thu 06-Dec-12 17:34:39

He is using you.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 17:35:40

So you split when you were 27? Sounds like your 27 year old self was a lot more switched on, and had a lot more self-esteem than your 35 year old self.

If you are desperate for a baby then adopt, or use a donor. Rather than saddle yourself with this man-child, who is never going to make a proper contribution to your household.

How will you feel when you are working full-time and caring for a baby, and he is out buying other people drinks with your money? Trust me, when I say that when you have a newborn and you've had no sleep - you really, really need to be able to respect the father of your baby!

Pandemoniaa Thu 06-Dec-12 17:36:20

I think you could benefit from some counselling. You shouldn't be "desperate" to be with anyone and especially not if they are clearly prepared to take you for granted in the way this man is. Nothing will change for the better if you marry him and you need to have the confidence to realise that it is always far better to be single and happy than it is to be married to the wrong person.

expatinscotland Thu 06-Dec-12 17:42:01

Get a donor and have a baby on your own. I get being desperate for a baby, I've been there. You'll forget all about this loser the moment you have a baby. Do it alone so you have you and your child to worry about and not some tosser who spends your money like water.

Redstockingswillstopsanta Thu 06-Dec-12 17:46:10

In 10 years time, you will be in debt and probably alone.The reason he doesn't stand on his own 2 feet is because everyone bails him out. One day all the love you feel for your "Touchstone" is going to turn to anger and disgust that you allowed yourself and possibly your child to be treated with such disrespect.
For what it's worth my DH is 52 and has always supported himself without expecting any handouts from anyone.

StuckOnTopOfTheChristmasTree Thu 06-Dec-12 17:51:26

True love isn't just about what you feel for someone. It's a partnership deal and he should put you first as much as you put him first. Because that doesn't happen it's doomed to failure. The only reas

StuckOnTopOfTheChristmasTree Thu 06-Dec-12 17:52:52

The only reason it hasn't failed already is your poor self esteem. Anyone else with self esteem would have kicked him out. Work on yourself not on trying to change him...

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 17:58:23

Ali baba is talking sense re having a baby. When you are on maternity leave how are you going to fund his lifestyle? He doesn't sound like he will make a great dad, what are his views on childcare, does he do much around the house? How

diddl Thu 06-Dec-12 18:02:17

I must admit I´m surprised at your mum-I´d would have thought she´d be trying to discourage you from marrying him, not facilitating it.

I´m not sure if I´m strange as I just couldn´t love someone like that.

It´s said that you can´t help who you fall in love with-but I think that to an extent you can-as I just wouldn´t entertain someone who´s so shit with money.

PiratesMolMabel Thu 06-Dec-12 18:04:24

Hello Ambivalence <hug>
I'm not sure what you're looking for from this forum.

It's glaringly obvious that you're being used as a 'meal ticket' by this bloke. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that he loves you, but I suspect that he's not as attached to you as you are to him. He takes home £300 per week & pays £50 for his travel pass, since he has no debts, by my reckoning, that leaves £250 that he has available to contribute to the household. Why are you only asking for £100?! confused

BTW £9.00 per hour is bloody good money-the National Min Wage is £6.19 so he earns way in excess of this.

OK I appreciate that you live in London where housing costs are high, but we live in darkest Devon where there is limited public transport & it costs my DH about £100 per month to get in/out of work & he earns approximately the same as your partner.

Darling you seriously need a reality check.

RUN! Run and move as far away from this fella as you can. You don't need him sponging off you.

Also get a new counsellor - the one you have should have recognised that you are in the grip of a controlling person who is sapping your self esteem & makes you feel that you owe him something.

Then again maybe they have, but you're not listening to them wink.

Take care. Mabel XX

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 18:06:45

I seriously doubt he has concluded anything at all, he is just fishing for you to tell him not to worry, of course you will sponsor the trip.

I remember your last thread.

Do you think he will still love you if you did not have enough funds to support the lifestyle he wants?

stifnstav Thu 06-Dec-12 18:09:25

He has £600 disposable income per month after paying you, yet has saved nothing for your honeymoon and hasn't given your £200 back?

Can I marry you?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 18:16:31

The counsellor thinks we are very attached to each other and highly motivated for this relationship to work. I am very cross that over the past few months he has used being depressed as an excuse not to pull his finger out. With finding a new job. I don’t think he is faking this.

I do think he would still love me if I couldn’t fund his lifestyle, when we met I was a student, so I was broke for the first 4 years of our relationship, and in the last 2 ( 2002- 2004) earned £20k – the same as him then.

I can see why people would think he has moved as he wants a meal ticket, and yes, he doesn’t have a pension. My family are very supportive of the relationship because he provides me with a lot of emotional support.

I am not desperate to have a child, I will probably TTC after our wedding but I am not madly broody.

I am not willing to kick him out, but I think I do have to insist on full disclosure of his finances and set a budget and ask him for a realistic contribution to the household.

He actually does all of the housework ( cleaning kitchen, bathroom, bins, shopping etc), except the laundry and ironing which I do. If one of us cooks, the other washes up.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 18:17:34

I know , I am being taken for a ride, and I need to sort out these finances.

givemeaclue Thu 06-Dec-12 18:19:06

Ok so what are you going to do, nagging hasn't worked.

stifnstav Thu 06-Dec-12 18:20:59

"I will probably TTC".... is he not up for it or is it just you? It takes two to tango. Have you had an actual conversation about the future, including mat leave finances?

And you could get rid of him and pay a cleaner to do what he does around the house.

Mollydoggerson Thu 06-Dec-12 18:24:09

What do you actuallky love about him? I don't get it, he sounds like a complete fool and a leech, how many friends would he have had at the party, had he not been paying the bill?

TheProvincialLady Thu 06-Dec-12 18:34:58

Don't marry a man who isn't contributing to the wedding and who spends £250 a week on himself, but won't pay a penny towards the honeymoon he promised to pay for. His promises are worth nothing.

Your counsellor is a dick. Please find a new one, and don't go for relationship counsellng - go for yourself.

WHEN you divorce this man you will be in debt that he has built up, you will have to hand over some of your cash and assets, and you will have to let your child go for access visits knowing that he doesn't pay a penny towards its upkeep. You will be a seething mass of resentment and regret.

Cahoootz Thu 06-Dec-12 18:36:30

Ambivalence. I remember an earlier thread of yours. it was memorable for all the wrong reasons sad. You got a lot of good advice, most of it saying the same thing.
You might as well just give him the money as he will get it one way or another. I can't see the point of stressing about it unless you are actually going to do something concrete about it. This is the pattern of the rest of your life and your future DC's lives.
I sincerely hope you are getting a pre-marital contract. sad. What do you think the wedding guests will be thinking at the wedding?

You admit that you want everyone to like you, and yet you don't seem to like yourself enough to find a partner who respects and loves you.

Redstockingswillstopsanta Thu 06-Dec-12 18:41:07

You are banging your head against a brick wall,all you need to do is totally change what he believes is acceptable,it's not going to happen and if you have a child you are going to resent him when he won't support you or your child.

SundaysGirl Thu 06-Dec-12 18:44:00

Whoa hang on. You want to spend the rest of your life with a man who makes you pick up a tab for £200 to get his mates pissed, and says he’s got no money for his Xmas do, so how is he going to give you this money by Saturday exactly?

You say you need to accept he is crap with money and take control of the finances..but he’s not letting you do that is he because he is not allowing you access to his finances to control. He is not even paying his share of the bills!

You say he is the love of your life? Well how can you be the love of HIS life when he doesn’t even respect you enough to pay his fair share towards his upkeep and just takes from you instead? You are bankrolling him to live however he wants and when the money runs out he has you feeling guilty because he can’t see his family?

You want to marry someone who doesn’t even care enough to save up for your honeymoon? So you will begin your first day of married life either not on honeymoon or having to pay for it yourself?

What on earth makes him so special you are willing to put up with this? I’m genuinely shock can you not see this man has no respect for you at ALL and therefore cannot possibly love you?

Mollydoggerson Thu 06-Dec-12 18:44:47

Is the wedding about a public statement? Would you be happy with a very quiet registry office wedding? Why marry him at all?

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 19:31:10

The wedding is a public statement by my mother - in the indian community it is very importnat to invite people to weddings to repay hospitality.

It's something I want to but pragmatically given finances I'd have been happy for a registry office do.

His solution to the immediate problem has been to ring his mum, she is sending him £2,000 - he will use this to pay me back, and presumably to go to holland for christmas.

He is expecting his mum to pay for our honeymoon.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 19:33:36

I have decided to stop subbing him, this weekend I am making an accurate budget and will show him what his half of the bills really is ( i guesstimate it is about £700/ month) and will be villing him accordingly for everything except the mortagage ( I am sorting out a pre-nup so he has no claim on my flat)

Pandemoniaa Thu 06-Dec-12 19:37:27

I am sorting out a pre-nup so he has no claim on my flat

This is such a sad statement. I'm not saying you aren't doing a very sensible thing by protecting your assets but somehow it reads as if you've know full well that he can't be trusted. Even before you marry.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 19:42:18

No, I do trust him to pay me back any debts - however tardily.

When we broke uo 8 years ago he owed me £3,000 - as we'd been using my interest free credit card for holidays etc in anticipation of me getting a payrise when I qualified as a solicitor, he paid me back £500 a month until it was clear.

Redstockingswillstopsanta Thu 06-Dec-12 19:42:20

You know this is not going to work,don't you?

So, you said he doesn't have debts. He does, they are just to the Bank of Mummy.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 19:44:57

Just out of curiosity: Do you respect him?

A 46 year old man. A spendthrift who looks to his girlfriend or his mum to pay his living, his parties and fun, and his mum to pay for the honeymoon?? hmm

He is pathetic.

Can you not do better?

What part of you does this man satisfy? The need to be and feel superior? The need to "mother" an adult?

I am afraid this sorry set up does not paint you in a very good light either!

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 19:45:25

My thing is, my father was like this, living hand to mouth etc, but when he married my mum she "sorted him out" and he became much more responsible, saving etc - , he gave me my flat deposit when I was 26, supported 5 kids etc, so it worked with him, so i am hopeful DF can turn over a new lease.

The pre- nup was DF's idea

<CLUNK> That is the sound of the penny dropping. Just because your DF changed it does not mean that your DFiance will. I bet your DF wasn't getting married in his late 40s either. The longer it goes on for the less likely any change is.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 19:56:24

sad

tsk tsk

No wonder you are glamorizing this man child.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 19:57:08

He wants the prenup? Is that so that he can live rent free in your house with a clear conscience while you pay the mortgage alone?

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 19:57:39

Out of curiosity, how old was your dad when he married your mum? And how old was he when you were 26?

I hope it did not take your mum 26 years of struggles, to get to that point, with a 72 year old husband...

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 19:58:59

My father was 47 when he married my mother.

When it comes to money - no, I don't respect DF,

in other ways I do - for his loyalty, kindness, being caring and affectionate and protective to me, honesty ( except finances...), emotional intelligence, intellectual connection etc

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:00:09

Took my mum 2 years to get my Dad "in line", by the time my older sis was born..

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:00:43

Mum was 28 when they married

He wants the pre-nup for that reason Alibaba and for the same reason he paid back the 3000 pounds he owed. He knows exactly where the line is and how much he can expect to take form the OP. Scary that he knows and she doesn't.

OP I am not being mean and scarky out of pleasure but because you seem blind to this. Please try to see that you can do better.

Wow, so you are exactly reproducing your DM's situation. Please don't expect the same outcome. Hope for the best but plan for the worst.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 20:02:20

But, they are different people?

It is pretty standard for a woman to find a partner that reminds her of her dad, this is text book. But, they are different people, and may not react in the same way.

Just because your MUM managed to subdue your dad and whip his personality into line with her own thinking, there is no reason to believe that you will be able to do the same!

You are not the same as your mum, and he is not the same as your dad!

Cahoootz Thu 06-Dec-12 20:02:48

I bet your DF was sorted out when he was a lot younger than 46. People can and do mature over the years but your partner is not showing any signs of doing so.

I find your posts curious. They are so honest and insightful one moment and defensive and almost deluded the next. Have you considered showing these threads to your partner?

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Thu 06-Dec-12 20:02:50

Men don't change their inner natures when they get married, only their superficial habits.

I don't get what you see in him. "Soulmate" is teen fiction shorthand for "handsome abuser I can't get out if my head".

HoratiaLovesBabyJesus Thu 06-Dec-12 20:03:17

*out of

Cahoootz Thu 06-Dec-12 20:07:26

Sorry thread had moved on by the time I posted.....

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:07:36

yes, I am considering showing thses threads to DF, am also considering a private session with our relate counsellor and showing her these so we can discuss them.

I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibilty for his own life.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:08:11

and answering an earlier ppost - no, he hasn't sorted a pension - this is another point of "discussion" between us...

Pandemoniaa Thu 06-Dec-12 20:08:18

He wants the prenup? Is that so that he can live rent free in your house with a clear conscience while you pay the mortgage alone?

This. Which is why I find your pre-nup sadder than it is sensible. It's easy for him to make grand but effectively meaningless gestures all the while he intends to settle down and live off your earnings for the foreseeable future.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:11:06

It is a one bed flat - I have made it clear to him that within 2 years we need to move to a family home, which he needs to put in half the deposit for ( bank of mum or his savings, either will do), and pay half the mortgage on it,
this flat will remain rented out as my pension/ sold to pay for our kids uni fees/ house deposits, as my parents did with me

Cahoootz Thu 06-Dec-12 20:12:45

I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibilty for his own life.

If I had a magic wand I might be able to help but, after so many years, you are foolish (sorry) if you think he can or even wants to change.

You sound like a warm and lovely person, I am sorry that you have found yourself in this situation.

Pandemoniaa Thu 06-Dec-12 20:14:09

As for advice, I think you sound like a very caring and generous person but actually, there's a limit to the extent you can change anyone and perhaps, rather than expect the impossible, you should consider looking elsewhere. Or, at the very least, you need to close down the personal banking services that your df has become so comfortably dependent upon. If this means life becomes less comfortable for him then tough. Nobody has the right to expect a life of complete financial irresponsibility and especially not on the assumption that everyone else exists to bale them out of trouble. What would he do if you lost your job or your income dropped drastically? Would he still be around?

LineRunnerWithBellsOn Thu 06-Dec-12 20:15:12

Barge pole, OP.

I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibility for his own life.

I have been married twice. Listen to me carefully. Marry a man who is already to your taste. I married one to change him. Eight years later he was worse. I married my current DH who is hard-working, sweet, budgets, does house work and I love. He was before I married him, he was after and now we have a child he still is. Far easier. Would have called the lazy, feckless idiot man I married first my soul mate too. I was young and foolish.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 20:23:12

You have made it clear to him re future house/mortgage.

How?

What is the sanction if he doesn't comply and come up with the funds? Will you leave him?

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 20:23:27

"I think what I am looking for from mumsnet is for you to show me how it can be done - to show a man how to take financial responsibilty for his own life."

Well, if you know him, and you dont know how he can do it, and he does not know how to do it, or even show any signs that he wants to, what do you really think any of us can say?

To be honest, this is something that any adult should have learnt by the time they were 20, or 22 to be generous. If no willingness or inclination is shown at 40 and beyond, I think any such "change" would be a total fluke.

It is all about learning to be responsible for oneself. Most of us start learning this from the age of 18, or when embarking on Uni or work.

richardsimmonstanktop Thu 06-Dec-12 20:27:47

I do feel for you, OP. It's not easy to walk away BUT you need to get some self respect. Can't you see that you're being taken for a ride? He's in his late 40s, he's not going to change. Never, ever, ever.

I really don't get how anyone could live with themselves expecting their mum, their girlfriend and worst of all their girlfriend's mum to fund their lifestyle! My DP would rather die before that happened - and for the first few years we knew each other he was earning much less than £9/hour.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:30:40

the sanction if he doesn't comply - no, I probably wouldn't leave him, as he knows.

The same as I am now instigating, I guess - setting up a budget he has to comply with ( this is what we are doing in our next relate session), with standing orders for savings, and peer pressure from his friends/ family

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 20:32:14

have decided I am going to email this thread to our relate counsellor and discuss with her whether to show it to him

Cahoootz Thu 06-Dec-12 20:36:14

Has his drinking and smoking got better?

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 20:38:17

God I feel so sorry for you OP. You love this guy madly - he sees you as an open cheque book. He has NO respect for you. You DO realise that, don't you? If not - you need to - in short order. He IS TAKING THE PISS.

expatinscotland Thu 06-Dec-12 20:38:35

Co-dependency is never a healthy thing in a relationship.

drcrab Thu 06-Dec-12 20:38:43

Can you get him to transfer his salary payment stuff to your account? So you get the £300/week and then give him £100 to live on. Or get him to set up a DD from his account to yours every month. And watch him do it.

I'm only suggesting this because you seem hellbent on sticking with him. This will at least give you the control over the money. I am willing to bet that that's how your mum sorted your dad out. By taking control.

I still can't see how this will end in a good way. You've already said you are losing respect for him. Before marriage. Before kids. When the kids come and you are sleepless and poor and having to go to a job and get ready at 7am for a 12 hour day and dropping the kids off at nursery and paying over £1000/month for nursery... I doubt v much you'll still love him v much.

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 20:39:31

It is NOT NORMAL to need the service of Relate before you have even GOT married.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 20:41:53

OP - why is the counsellor so involved??

FFS you aren't even married yet, you should be head over heels and full of joint plans for the future - rather than you having to cajole him along into what you want from him.

Do you want this for the rest of your life?

You are the same age as me, and I feel like a mother trying to get through to a teenager.

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 20:42:06

You NEED to leave him and get some self esteem. You cannot live you life loving someone who does not love you back the same.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 20:43:03

Porto - exactly! It should not be this hard before the bloody wedding.

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 20:46:10

OP - this guy is a cocklodger. He has had ample opportunity to make something of himself - but has preferred to scrounge off you. He is now playing the guilt card - "I know i have fucked up and will sacrifice myself on the altar of not seeing my family" all the while whilst you are pricing up the fecking plane tickets.

LineRunnerWithBellsOn Thu 06-Dec-12 20:48:15

You will need to make sure that your Relate counsellor knows what a cocklodger is.

Chubfuddler Thu 06-Dec-12 20:49:30

Oh dear. He may be the "live of your life" <bleurgh> now but if he carries on like this in five years you'll hate him. What's the point of that?

Chubfuddler Thu 06-Dec-12 21:00:58

And as an aside, why do you think it's ok for him to use bank of mum to come up with his half of a deposit for a family home? He just leeches off women basically doesn't he? His mum, you, your mum.

DowagersHump Thu 06-Dec-12 21:16:12

Your fiance treats you like you're worthless because you treat you like you're worthless sad

He thinks you are lucky to be with him because everything you do shows him that no matter what he does, you will still be there.

I don't think I've ever read such a sad thread. You're clearly an intelligent educated woman and you're being absolutely duped by this man. And your counsellor sounds bloody hopeless to be honest. Any counsellor who thinks a relationship is worth saving at the expense of one of the party's self-esteem doesn't deserve their certificate

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 21:20:26

"It is NOT NORMAL to need the service of Relate before you have even GOT married."

I was just thinking that Pantofino.

Most people see such serious relationship issues, that need Relate, as big red flags, they dont go on to marry somebody they are so incompatible with.

Bunbaker Thu 06-Dec-12 21:29:48

Please don't marry this poor excuse of a human being. He will drag you down with him.

You sound lovely and deserve so much better. I agree with DowagersHump that your counsellor sounds pretty useless. You don't need a man like this to improve your self esteem.

violetbunny Thu 06-Dec-12 21:48:26

OP, I also moved countries to be with my DP (funnily enough, also from the Netherlands to the UK). I have done everything I can to make sure I am supporting myself - I did everything I could to find a decent job here (which I was lucky enough to succeed in) and now make sure I contribute towards all my share of the bills. My point is, although I know my partner would have been more than willing to help me out and support me financially in moving over here, I would feel terrible if I didn't feel I'd done absolutely everything I could to make sure I was self-supporting. Even before I moved here I was putting a lot of time into job hunting and saving as much as possible. Regardless of whether your partner has managed to secure a good job here or not, it's the attitude and lack of motivation that would really worry me. You don't have to put up with this!

MrsHoarder Thu 06-Dec-12 22:01:29

Don't marry a man to change him. Really, he's being honest enough to show you what he's like before you marry. Take him as he comes or leave him, but don't assume you can change him.

And if you do choose to take him as he comes remember that is what you chose to do. That you have chosen a life of managing someone else's finances without their full co-operation and enthusiasm (its different if one person has the ability to manage finances and the other cba but is happy to follow their lead).

Love gets you so far. After that you need respect and trust.

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 22:09:10

PLease don't buy plane tickets. Arrange to see your most annoying family members over Xmas. See how he copes. If he loves you he will survive one such outing.

PessaryPam Thu 06-Dec-12 22:17:03

Stop loving him, it's not compulsory. God knows I met and dated some complete tools in my time but allow yourself to conclude he is not worth a toss. Please.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 22:27:17

With all your posts the scales. are dropping from my eyes tonight.
I have a lot of thinking and work to do.

thank you to all of you who have taken the time to advise me. i so appreciate it.

Cahoootz Thu 06-Dec-12 22:29:09

Is the wedding booked?

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 22:36:32

Please, please listen OP - you are worth so much better, I never got together with my DH or or had a baby til well in my 30s. My dh is not perfect by any means - but what we do have is a future vision. Where we are going to be - and WHO will be paying for it. And ie - it is not all ME.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 22:47:02

Yes, the wedding is booked. but he has behaved appallingly tonight, very spoilt and has stomped off to the sofa when i asked him v reasonably to have his budget ready for our relate appointment . am understanding lots of the posts now.
Pretty annoyed with myself for being a fool.
Still holding out hope we can sort things if i am firm though

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 22:49:31

Firm is something a parent has to be with a child. Not a woman with her partner.

ImagineJL Thu 06-Dec-12 22:52:52

If and when you have a child with this man, your view of him will change dramatically. I reckon that a lot of women have very nurturing instincts, and often end up "looking after" their partners.

However, when you have an actual baby, suddenly you have a genuinely helpless person to care for, not just a lazy lump who finds it easier to delegate life's difficult tasks to their wife.

The moment you have a baby, your priorities will shift. It won't be a case of you tolerating his silliness with money because you love him. It'll be him depriving your precious child of things it needs because he'd rather spend the money on lattes in Costa or whatever. You will resent him for it and come to hate him. And he will be jealous of this child, who has taken not only his wife's attention, but also some of the money that used to come his way.

Your own father's story is very much the exception, and if you're banking on the same thing happening to you then you taking a massive gamble.

Ambivalence Thu 06-Dec-12 23:06:28

Thank you all for your support to tonight. it has been hard night.

Pantofino Thu 06-Dec-12 23:14:18

OP - imagine yourself on Maternity Leave. Exhausted, bruised,brand new baby - no work for a year. You just want to sit in bed, you have had no sleep, and won't be able to bankroll the father for the foreseeable. Imagine your OH and what he will be like. Will he support you financially, emotionally?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Thu 06-Dec-12 23:18:15

Imagine that is a great post.

OP - I hope you get some sleep and that things are clearer in the morning. Nice to see that your 'DF' reacted in such a mature and considerate way...
I really would think about relying less on your counsellor's opinion. To me, she does not sound like a wise woman.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Thu 06-Dec-12 23:22:07

Or will he throw a tantrum that you are pissed off with him for his spending, when all he wants is to go out, be social, etc?

Will he be pissed off that your maternity package is less than he hoped, and you actually have to watch your expenses?

Will he be able to do his fair share of baby care? Handle slepless nights, and drag himself out of bed to change a nappy so that you can rest in between feeding?

If you have problems getting him to budget now, imagine what it will be when you have to spend a couple of grand on baby items, and your income drops!

What will you do when you realize that you need a bigger flat? Maybe a house even, with a garden for your child? What if your salary alone is not going to be sufficient for this? A bigger car? Paying for flights for your child also, to go see family in Holland?

What if you can just manage to get a mortgage for a bigger place (either with just your, or with your combined salaries), but this means skimping and saving and budgeting even harder to pay bills, and he kicks up a fuss that you cant keep him in the same style he has become accustomed to?

Sorry OP but I am wishing that your fiance acts like this more. Because it is showing that he is unwilling to change, unwilling to do the most basic thing, write a budget. A 46 year old stomping off because his future wife wants to plan their financial future together, it speaks volumes.

Take care. Have a good sleep.

lovebunny Thu 06-Dec-12 23:48:14

what do you want him for? you spend all your time nagging him.

Pandemoniaa Thu 06-Dec-12 23:51:06

Have you actually read this thread, lovebunny? Or are you merely launching an attention seeking missile?

Morloth Fri 07-Dec-12 00:08:36

Cut your losses.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 09:52:12

I don't think you do love him really, if you did you wouldn't feel desperate to change him. It is your dad that you love and you feel he is so unique and special because of the affection commanded by his perceived similarity to your dad. All the "I've never met anyone who compares" is simply that you haven't met anyone who is quite so similar and therefore you feel some kind of instinctive affection - big mistake!

This will not work out well, he is not your father and you have already wasted so much of your life on him for no reason. He isn't something special, there are so many like him around, I'd even perhaps argue that your obvious and crippling non-existing self-respect must be being continually eroded by being with/loving him which in turn keeps you with/loving him. It is a mess.

You will never change him and your mum didn't change your dad, he probably just grew up, whatever it was he did, he did it all by himself and your mum is deluded if she thinks it was down to her. Does your mum still parent your dad? I'd be willing to bet she does because "I corrected his behaviour" is a very parental attitude.

As others have said he is not giving you anything to suggest any hope he will ever change.

28 is very different to 35 if you think you want to have a child so your mum was taking a much smaller risk than you.

The counsellor is probably equally frustrated as us about your insistence on keeping him and making it work. If you come in convinced you will not leave under any circumstances then what else can they help with when you are paying them for couples counselling other than your pointless budgeting and trying to "help" him be more responsible with money? I don't think the counsellor saying you are both committed to making it work is a compliment, it is like saying you are both really committed to banging your heads together. I don't think you need relate counselling, you are not going to change him, neither is relate.

I suggest you have individual counselling and you postpone or cancel the wedding until he treats you as a partner not a parent and you can treat him as a partner and not a child which will be never. You need to deal with why you see such a disrespectful loser as your cornerstone, this is your biggest obstacle not that you looooove him soooo much, that is just bollocks, it is totally irrational to give your love, trust, money and time to someone like that.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 09:56:09

(He will never change because this is how he was raised to be and why he has picked you to marry, he won't want to be with you if you try to change him)

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Fri 07-Dec-12 09:58:31

<applause>

aamia Fri 07-Dec-12 10:08:21

He has at least tried to make a sensible monetary decision. Back him up or he won' t bother again!

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 10:15:31

See I don't think he has tried to make a sensible financial decision, this is just how he gets op to pay for things "oh woe is me I can't go home for Christmas, waaaaahhhh!" Accompanied no doubt with some moping and grumpiness designed to make her feel bad "oh I'm just so sad/miss my family" or worried that he will ruin her christmas or him feeling bad makes her feel insecure in the relationship. When the op feels guilty or gives in for a quiet life or to feel more secure in his affection for her he says "oh WOW, you are so amazing, are you sure? Thanks!" and she feels loved and valued... Is how I'd be willing to bet it goes...

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 10:16:38

I suspect you are inadvertently buying his love.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Fri 07-Dec-12 10:17:26

He has not really made any monetary decision. He, like a child, has turned on the waterworks in order to try manipulate OP to fork out. Again.

amicissimma Fri 07-Dec-12 10:26:16

It doesn't sound as if you love him. It sounds as if you love an imaginery version of him who only exists in your head.

BTW, you say you want people to like you. That's you - someone who is honest about who she is, not someone who is pretending to like supporting another person.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 10:34:05

Mumsnet can't help you change him but we can help you translate his bullshit I think.

"I'm not going to go home for Christmas because I can't afford it" = pay for my flights or I'll ruin Christmas

"I cant afford to contribute, I only earn £9/hour" = I am not willing to get a better job even though I could because you will expect me to split the bills.

"Ok then, I'll pay for the honeymoon" = I have no intention of paying for anything, I'm just agreeing so you will stop pestering, if it comes to it I can find someone else to pay for it.

"I'm really committed to making this work" = because if I lose you my living standards would drop significantly and I'd have to wipe my own arse. I'm not doing a budget though.

At some stage op you will get the classic "you knew what I was like when you married me" cocklodger argument ender...

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 10:40:14

He's probably thinking you may "reward" his martyrdom over Christmas by paying for him to go anyway since he has "made a responsible decision". You should have no more to do with it than to say "oh right, ok then" and to get on planning your Christmas.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 10:45:23

I notice you talk about "we" and so does he. "We should not go to holland this year" the situation is more accurately that you could go to holland with your money if you wanted to and that he, since he doesn't have the money shouldn't even be considering that "we" might go. There is no "we" in your financial relationship, you don't have a partnership, he spunks his money on crap and you pay for the things he needs to live. Him telling you what "we" should do is extremely cheeky isn't it? Why is he assuming he gets to decide or have any input into it when he hasn't got any money for it?

WilsonFrickett Fri 07-Dec-12 10:46:36

When people tell you what they are, listen to them. He isn't lying, or trying to cover up his true self. What you have in front of you is a man who is never going to change. Listen to what he is telling you. He isn't your DF. You aren't your DM.

Just listen to what he's telling you.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 07-Dec-12 10:53:14

OP you seem to lend a lot of weight to your counsellor saying that you are both committed to making it work.

Have you considered that of course he wants it to work, on his terms? His mother won't be around forever, he has no pension and he needs a mealticket to pay for his retirement. You are his chosen cash cow. Solictor, you own your flat, your parents have some money - what is not to like?

You can't change a person significantly when you marry them, you might be able to get them to modify bits of their behaviour because they have recognised the problem it causes if they don't, but fundementally they will remain the same.

DH is chronically late. He's one of the classic "I've just got time to do 6 1 more task before we leave types". Most of the time I work around it because he comes from a culture and background where strict timekeeping was less of an issue. However, on one occasion we were flying to see his brother and he was so late that we missed our flights. I didn't step in and sort things out, rather I stepped back and told him to sort out new flights, pay the cost out his pocket money not the family budget and square things with his brother - which he did. We've never missed a flight since.

Has your DP ever faced up to the consequences of his behaviour and made any modifications at all?

suburbophobe Fri 07-Dec-12 11:50:59

Like someone said upthread. He lives off women.

Even my DS of 21 doesn't ask me for money! And if he needs to borrow some, he pays me back.

You've had lots of good advice here, I hope it will open your eyes, cos he is never going to want an equal financial partnership. Throwing a strop over it shows you this.

You will be left bitter and resentful. Is that the life you want to live?

Imagine bringing a child into this scenario! What lessons will they be learning from it? More repeat of the same.....

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 12:37:36

I have had some really good advice on here, thank you.

After his strop last night, he wanted to come back into the bed at 5 this morning ( we are having building works, so actually he had been sleeping on the floor as the builders had moved the sofa so it was inaccessible ). I told him I wasn’t prepared to share my life or my bed with someone who doesn’t respect me enough to be honest to me, and that I want him to produce his budget.

He was really childish in response, saying that by making him sleep on the floor I was showing him I didn’t think it was his house. I stood up for myself and I said no, it is my house, it may be his home, but it is my house, as I was the one paying for it, and if he didn’t like it, he could find somewhere else to live.

I left him sleeping on the floor – he must have been freezing. Clearly he didn’t like sleeping on the floor as this morning he asked for my bank details to set up a direct debit to me for the bill money. He says it is heard for him to access his paperwork until the builders move our belongings back, so he couldn’t do the budget today but he will have it for Tuesday for our relate session. I said I am not happy with this, I am not paying the counsellor to go through bits of paper, it all needs to be set out properly and i need to have seen it before we go on Tuesday or I am not going.

I am determined to toughen up now and stop paying for him.

My reason for only charging him £400/ month was to allow him to save £400 a month towards the honeymoon, if he had stuck with the plan, he would have been able to save £5,000, which is enough for a honeymoon ( I am more a backpacking than luxury holiday type). He hasn’t done this.

I don’t really care what he has spent the money on – I know it is drinks in the pub, coffees, newspapers and magazines (an eye watering £20 a week on just those!), but it is not carrying on. He can either cough up or move out.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 12:43:15

A major problem is that his mother has ALWAYS bailed him out. Apparently this evening when he rang her she said she was proud of him. I would not be proud of my adult son calling me to ask for a handout.

His brother is the same as him – relying on his wife and his mother – I don’t have any respect for him and I am losing respect for my fiancé. The only way that this will work is if he actually lets me control the finances.

givemeaclue Fri 07-Dec-12 12:47:50

But will he let you control the finances, I doubt it. If will take out credit behind Zeus back and give you the bill

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 13:00:05

Think about this last thing you say "if he lets me control the finances"

At the moment he has an awful lot of control over your money without having any claim on it simply because he is entitled and lazy and is having this attitude constantly reinforced by his mother and enabled by you. If you marry he will have some claim on your money, if you have a baby you may need to be more dependent on him. How is this likely to work out in reality when at the moment now you don't even really have control of your own private earnings that he has no claim on?

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 13:01:56

I have told him I will NEVER pay any credit card debt off for him, and this is one of the reasons for having a pre-nup. I am also not happy that he has made no pension provision – in my view that is his choice, he had the money to do this, but chose to fritter it away instead and so in the event of a split, I am not willing to let him have a claim on my pension.

Some very insightful comments. Yes, part of the powerful chemistry is that he is very, very much like my father.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 13:04:35

That is true Offred, which is why i need to stop lending him money or undercharging him for the bills now.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 13:07:27

I also realise the comments about women having a mothering instinct are true, I am like a mother hen with all my friends as well. he has very boyish looks and it does bring out my maternal feelings.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 13:08:56

This is the kind of thread Xenia avoids like the plague I suspect because it shows you very clearly that being a high flyer in terms of your employment as a woman means nothing if you have a partner who controls how you spend your money, overtly or manipulatively...

Op you are correct to imply it is important that the person who controls the money is trustworthy and that he isn't BUT it just isn't practical to suggest that someone who has no qualms bullying, manipulating and coercing you out of your money when you are not married (and they have no legal entitlement) will suddenly relinquish that power and control when they marry you and DO have some claim on it.

It isn't a case of "it will only work if i have control over the money" (yours and his) because to achieve the level of control necessary you would have to prevent him having any real access to anything (and also prevent him being able to manipulate you) and this is not healthy in a relationship and not fair to him as a person to be so controlled by you financially, it is a case of simply "there is no way this is going to work".

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 13:11:44

I think you should be careful about the protection offered by a prenup too. They aren't necessarily legally enforceable and for the reasons you want one I would advise not legally marrying him (which is not necessary either as I can see) rather than trying to protect yourself from his poor financial decisions as going into marriage you are financially supporting him and this may be seen as his expectation of the marriage.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 07-Dec-12 13:16:58

It shouldn't be this much like hard work, it really shouldn't. He sounds like a horrible, stubborn child.

If you want to mother someone, have a baby. If you want someone to have an equal partnership with, who you can respect, trust and rely on - then go and find another man because this one is not going to give you those things.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 13:17:24

Pre nup would only come into play if you were divorcing anyway, is that going to happen? I suspect if you were miserable after you had a baby you'd become one of the "but I owe it to dc to make it work" crowd.

If he really loves you then he will love you still even if you give him no money.

EldritchCleavage Fri 07-Dec-12 13:18:04

OP, all your posts seem to be premised on the idea that your DP is hopeless with money, 'can't' manage money and has to learn to budget.

I don't think that is necessarily true. I think he may be fundamentally selfish, with little or no impulse control. See it, have it. I suspect he never thinks about anyone else and the consequences his choices will have on them. He is very probably someone who resents denying himself anything and sees no reason to do it, because all the things YOU want-parity, commitment, baby-are simply not important enough to him. It is unlikely he really means what he promises, even in the moment he is saying the words.

The only way that you will get even the semblance of a fair contribution from him will be if you nag him into doing it and parent him through it, which he will immediately resent and even hate you for. He will then become one of those disgruntled men sitting in bars telling impressionable younger women a sob story that his wife doesn't understand him and tries to control him (before he gets off with them).

If you were a tough, confident divorcee with a couple of kids, lived separately from this man and only met up for fun and sex the relationship might work well. Becoming his wife, keeper and the mother of his children is hugely high-risk. Please do think about it carefully, possibly with a new counsellor.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 07-Dec-12 13:25:29

What do your friends have to say about it all?

Eldritch
Good post.

OP I tend to manage the money more than DH partly because I enjoy doing it more than him. However, if I suggested a budget for something e.g. if DH was doing the food shop or booking a holiday he would not see this as an imposition to be argued against and subverted, instead he'd probably see it as personal challenge to come in under budget. He would view any money he saved as a bonus to the family rather than a restriction on his fun.

If you are planning to have children, the last thing you want is a partner who puts their own needs first financially. If you have a 3 week old baby and your DF goes on a food shop with an agreed budget would he buy everything you need and would he stick to the budget? I suspect he would come back with 3/4 of what you really needed, some stuff he fancied, some magazines for himself and £15 over budget.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Fri 07-Dec-12 13:33:52

Also, I hear Pre nups are not worth the paper they are written on, in the UK.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 13:38:29

Although he is secretive and selfish about his own money, he does give me back any money I lend him, it just takes several weeks. I have decided therefore NEVER to lend him any money again. My friends all like him, they say that he is honest and kind and thoughtful ( which he mostly is), and they know that he makes me happy ( mostly). I have raised it with a few of them that I feel like I am being used as a meal ticket, and their views have been that he just isn’t a forward planner or materialistic, and that is why he has never saved/ bought a property/ got a pension. Until recently he was earning the equivalent of £30,000/ year and he appears to have spent that on CDs, he didn’t save any of it, and was living in the same rented studio flat in Holland for 6 years, because he had friends in the building. He just isn’t motivated to improve his living situation, which to me indicates a lack of self respect. I don’t think his primary reason for being with me is financial, as i don’t think he is very calculating. It is a nice side effect of him being rather unambitious though that if he lives with me he enjoys the same lifestyle I do

A lot of my friends are in similar situations too – being the primary earner, and having a less ambitious spouse. Some of the others are single and say that I shouldn’t complain about the finances when otherwise he is so lovely, and think I am being very materialistic

WilsonFrickett Fri 07-Dec-12 13:43:37

Aaaaaaaaaaaaah op yet another red flag. You think this is down to lack of self-respect - presumably marriage and children will give him the self-respect 'backbone', after all it worked for your father didn't it?

But what if (kind version) he really, really doesn't give a stuff about the things that you do? Or (less kind version) he does but he's not willing to work/contribute/save to get them so is happy to pick your pockets for the rest of his life.

Once you marry, he becomes entitled to a share of the wealth accumulated during the marriage by the way. Even if you're the one doing the accumulating.

EldritchCleavage Fri 07-Dec-12 13:44:29

Pre-nups are not worthless, they can and usually will be taken into account. It's just that they are not binding on the court deciding ancillary relief. So the court can disregard a pre-nup if it decides that is the just thing to do.

OP, it does sound as though in certain important areas (money, lifestyle, aspirations) you and your partner have very different values. This is a fundamental difference you seem to be glossing over. What does he think of your attitudes and your desires for the future?

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 13:47:53

If it is that he "just isn't a forward planner" or more accurately cannot even cope with the actual present nevermind the future and they think this is a reasonable way to be then why do you have a right to control him or change him?

I don't think you will be in the same situation either. I bet some of your friends have children, I bet also the lower earner is not refusing to do something to improve the financial situation like your DP. As for the single ones and the "shut up any man is better than no man"... Urgh...

I honestly think you seem to have surrounded yourself with very unhelpful people here! Either that or they are trying to placate you because they no you won't leave him.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 13:49:40

"He is secretive and selfish about his own money" in a marriage this should be a total deal breaker IMHO. It is actually insane in your situation!!

MrsHoarder Fri 07-Dec-12 13:55:03

Living in a studio flat is not in itself problematic: why should he have spent more money on a place to live than is necessary to make himself comfortable and happy? Its that he then happily frittered the money which is the problem...

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 13:55:48

Offred – it will all have to come to a head at Tuesday’s Relate session, he will have to accept a budget and stick to it or move out.

Although I am a solicitor, I am not that highly paid and he needs to contribute.

Whocansay Fri 07-Dec-12 13:56:52

Do not marry this man. A pre-nup is not currently legally recognised in this country (although they can be taken into account). This means that he may be entitled to half of your assets on your marriage, and you may be responsible for half of his debt.

I'm not surprised he wants to get married. I'm sorry, but I think you're being incredibly foolish and I also think it would be irresponsible to bring a child into this mess.

EldritchCleavage Fri 07-Dec-12 13:57:10

Bear in mind that lower earner does not equal selfish unambitious cocklodger.

Plenty of lower earners in relationships work very very hard for their families, and indeed are the lower earners precisely because they take on all or most of the childcare, or caring for elderly relatives, or whatever.

I hope you don't mind my saying so, but there is an inkling in your posts of monetary contribution being the ultimate arbiter of a person's worth in a relationship, something with which I disagree profoundly. It isn't his smaller income that makes your DP such a dismal prospect, but his attitudes and behaviour.

FoxyRevenger Fri 07-Dec-12 13:58:44

OP if you stick with this man you'll never have: a honeymoon, a bigger home, the ability to afford children or the chance to just enjoy your life and your relationship. You'll always have to control and manage him and everything about your lives. Doesn't that just sound exhausting?

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:02:29

I don't think the budget is the issue. The issue is that he is selfish and secretive over his own money AND feels entitled to yours. You are never going to be able to have a joint account with him, lots of people choose not to because that is their preference, but if you couldn't have a joint account with him I don't think you can be married really can you?

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:05:47

What do you think will happen if you do this budget? Do you think he will stick to it?

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:09:57

Cos he doesn't seem so keen on making it... What are you going to do if he overspends? The thing is the things you would have to do to him to force him to be the kind of man you need him to be are abusive. He is quite financially and by the sounds of it emotionally abusive to you, the only logical answer is to just split up. A relationship is not about power but partnership and what you are doing is attempting to escalate the power struggle. It is very messed up.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 14:13:41

No, I agree that financial contribution is not the only contribution, if he was doing most fo the childcare/ caring for an elderly relative, i wuoldn't mind. It riles me that my DF could get a better paid job, but chooses not to.

At work he seems to work hard, e.g. last month he won “employee of the month”, and he leaves the house at 6.30 and returns home at 5.30, so he works a longer day than I do. He also does the lion’s share of the housework, all of the shopping etc.

His attitudes and behaviour are appalling though – he thinks that because he has moved countries to be with me ( as he always says – I have moved countries twice to be with you), that absolves him from having to contribute to a shared life.

Xenia Fri 07-Dec-12 14:14:35

If he exists which I'm not sure.... he certainly doesn't sound like what you want. However if you want babies he is presumably going to be the one at home so that will solve all your chidlcare problems for the next 20 years. If you want babies and need to get on with it and think you love him then go for it but take the financial precautions people suggest. Make sure the fact he will be the stay at home father is part of the Relate session although again don't marry as if you do and split then he is more likely to get the property and the child if he is the primary "care giver".

Also no need to marry and then you can preserve your separate finances.
Pre nups have indicative force but not legally binding so not a solution.

Arithmeticulous Fri 07-Dec-12 14:23:50

You do know relationships are not supposed to be so bloody hard all the time?

Yes of course you have to work at them - but seriously, look at the stage you are at and then look at the words you are using - where's the fun? Where are the fireworks? Where is the respect, partnership, joy? You are talking about control and sanctions, not enjoying a life and planning a future with someone who supports you and shares your plans.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 14:41:04

I have been thinking of not legally marrying him, but aswe want to have children, my family are keen that they be “legitimate”. I am also one of those marriage vows unto death types, so likely wouldn’t seek a divorce – if anyone did, it would be him.

Other than issue, I am happy with him, in fact my best friend
Just sent me an email saying that in the last few months I am happier than she has seen me in years.

I am not miserable - just frustrated.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:49:23

What is the answer then?

Because the choice is accept him as he is or don't be with him as I see it. Do you think it would be ok to control all his money and/or set budgets/limits for him? What if for some reason (ill health, child etc) you needed to depend on him? What if when you had a baby you wanted to stay at home and not go back to work? Staying at home with the children is often thrust onto the lower earner but I think it is better for it to be based on who wants to and would be best at the job. If he is how you describe would you trust him to raise a well rounded child? How would he function without being able to "future plan" or budget?

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:51:34

As anyone who is at home with children will happily tell you planning and organising your life, being responsible with money and budgeting are really important.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:55:26

And without being patronising, plenty of people find it hard to imagine how having children changes your expectations, your life and your choices until it happens, you might be happy for him to be SAHD living entirely off your wage, although I doubt it based on this thread, but equally you might find you really want to stay at home and I just think it is better to give yourselves the option of discussing it later as well as now rather than forcing yourself into a corner. He may not even want to be SAHD or he may change his mind when he works out it is hard and thankless!

Zalen Fri 07-Dec-12 14:58:55

Purely going off the OP, he hasn't asked you to bail him out, he's suggesting not going to Holland for Christmas. If you want to go then I guess you could pay if not then stay home as he has suggested.

Why would it be bailing him out if you decide to do something he hasn't asked for purely because you think that's best for him, speaking as someone who regularly has to bail out a financially incompetent husband, I'm confused.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 14:58:56

Maybe if you are really wanting to keep it together insist that he gets a better job, becomes more responsible with money and starts contributing equally to your relationship before you consider marriage and children. If he won't then don't marry and have children with him. Being a family is difficult and stressful and I think you need to stand strong and together to survive.

Xenia Fri 07-Dec-12 15:01:07

She won't home with the children but few women want to be anyway so that's not ap roblem but before they marry they need to establish he would do the stay at home father bit. Then he would have no money to manage so it could all work out pretty well.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 15:03:45

I think that is right Offred, to not have kids until he has a better job. I would be happy for him to be a SAHD, my father was a SAHD from when I was 10 ( and my youngest sib was 3) and it worked really well.

he is very good with children, housework etc - he knows how hard it is because most of his friends have kids ( and a coupke are SAHDs)

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 15:05:15

I wouldn't want to be a SAHM - it seems very lonely and isolated, and I would not suit the lack of adult conversation (I am a chatterbox)

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 15:06:19

Except that it doesn't work out well Xenia! Where do you get "few women want to be at home with children" that's just your opinion because you didn't want to be and we are all aware that is because you see childcare as something little unimportant people do but not everyone sees it that way and actually a lot of people male and female want to spend more time caring for their dcs than they do.

If he was at home with the dcs he would likely have a more important role in managing the money, she would be earning it but as the childcarer he would need to manage the children's daily expenses at least and so would need pretty unfettered access to the money and would have to make a lot of the decisions whilst she was at work. It isn't the same as having a nanny you know? A father has PR for a start and if she was a single earner she couldn't justify depriving him of access to the money whilst he was a SAHD.

I do wonder what planet you live on sometimes Xenia.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 15:10:10

Yes but again, he isn't your dad.

I have seen a lot of women absolutely sure they did not want to be SAHM change their minds when the baby is there, also many who were absolutely sure they did feel it was a big mistake too. I do think it should be set up so that it is possible to change your mind and to make a different joint decision later on when you know what you are dealing with purely because it is just sensible to have some wiggle room in any planning like that. People most often resent things they feel have been forced on them I think too.

Xenia Fri 07-Dec-12 15:13:44

She's not going to hvae the luxury of deciding to stay home when she has chidlren and as he will be an OAP before we know it because of their huge age gap it is going to make more sense if she has the 40 year career and he won't be here in 40 years. The only way these older man 20 years younger women things work is if he is really much richer than she is. As he isn't she gets the very worst of all deals.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 15:18:05

Xenia - it is an 11 year age gap, not a 20 year one, but yes, he will be an OAP in 20 years...

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 15:19:08

If he had a better job, which she says he could but chooses not to, then she might. Him having a better job would help massively anyway children or not! If he was a SAHD and her a single earner she'd pretty much end up being the earner and him the spender I think.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 15:29:24

His earning capacity would still be less than mine – at the moment he earns 17K, he is capable of earning £25 – 30K at least, if he went back to the work he was doing in Holland. I earn £50K, and whilst I intend to increase that in about 10 years 9 to be able to pay private secondary school fees) , for the next 10 years my work/life balance is most important to me – and I currently work a 36 hour week which is rare as a solicitor.

I think it would also be best if I went to work given that he has never enjoyed any job he has, whereas I actually enjoy my work. He enjoys being with kids

drcrab Fri 07-Dec-12 15:37:33

Nothing wrong with him being the sahd. But you need to be able to trust him. Not just to play with the kids but to be their main caregiver, know about sleep, food etc. he will in that role also be doing most of the food shopping etc and he may spend money at playgroups and coffee mornings. You have to be able to trust him with that.

Till then I think you need to see if this is the amount of work you want to invest in before the marriage!!!

We went from a double income to a single when my dh got made redundant. Thank god I had a high paying job. But it was a huge hit. He's set up on his own and doing well but of course the payment isn't stable for now. And in the meantime we struggle on with nursery fees, mortgage and life. It's hard but I never accuse him of not pulling his weight. I'm not sure what I'd do if my dh was like your partner now. I wouldn't even call him partner!!

Whocansay Fri 07-Dec-12 16:02:31

He enjoys playing with OTHER PEOPLE'S kids. He has no children (unless I've missed something). It's very different playing with other people's kids for bit and giving them back and actually looking after your own. You cannot be this naive.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 16:46:46

No, I am not that naive – yes, he likes playing with other people’s kids and giving them back after a couple of hours. I like that too. He has done a lot of babysitting for his friends though – so has got through his fair share of dirty nappies, pukey messes too.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 17:13:27

Yeah but that still isn't the same. I think what people mean is that he is showing he isn't very responsible or selfless with how he is behaving at the moment and those are two fairly important things. The responsibility of being a SAHM and also the isolation, the demands are all very wearing and normally the SAHP is the one who gets all the shit (i hate you i want [the other one]) while the child is excited by the working parent who they see less often. You have to have extremely good self esteem and confidence and be prepared to be very patient and calm as well as organised and responsible I think.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 17:14:43

(And you have to been prepared to work hard in long hours for no pay, simply for the good of the child)

PiratesMolMabel Fri 07-Dec-12 17:49:44

OP you say that your a solicitor.

You surely must know that, even with a pre-nup, if your partner gave up work in order to look after the children he could still re-negotiate the pre-nup in the event of a divorce & argue that, since he 'traded in' his chance to save for a pension in order to care for the children, that he should have a claim on your pension.

He could also end up being the parent who is given residence of the children on the grounds that they're used to him being the primary carer & force you to pay maintenance to him.

He could divorce you, take your children, your pension & force you to support him for ever more shock

DON'T MARRY HIM. DON'T HAVE CHILDREN WITH HIM. FIND SOMEONE WHO IS MORE WORTHY OF YOUR LOVE grin

Chubfuddler Fri 07-Dec-12 17:58:43

If you marry him with the intention of him being a SAHP you must be mad. Completely bonkers. Do you honestly think you can't do better than this? Being alone is better than this.

Arithmeticulous Fri 07-Dec-12 18:15:31

What on earth makes you think he'd put any effort into being a SAHP? Given he can't be bothered to pull his weight at home at the moment, or put anyone ahead of (or on a par with) his own entitled self?

expatinscotland Fri 07-Dec-12 18:19:51

What a warped, messed up excuse for a relationship. I pity any child you two have.

Adversecalendar Fri 07-Dec-12 19:57:09

If he has got to that advanced age and is this shit with money then he will always be the same. I am the same age as your BF and seriously you have done a lot by mid forties, good and bad.

I have no idea how anyone could stay in love with such an epic cocklodger.

Pendipidy Fri 07-Dec-12 20:30:45

You haven't answered any of the comments that state: you do realise people go to relate AFTER they are married?!

Why are you going when he seems highly unsuited to you? You could find someone else you really love and more than him, if you get rid of him. Eventually, he will hate you cos you nag him too much, and you will hate him cos you have to nag him too much.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 21:02:31

Pendipity - am on my phone as can't find laptop after builders.

No, i don't agree people only go to relate after they are married. we were together for 6 years. Apart for 7 and now another year. i think it is sensible to get professional help asap. not wait til crisis point

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 21:05:27

That said i think your statement that we will end up hating each other is accurate . That is why i am drawing on mumsnet wisdom to work out what i should do .

I am listening to the advice i am being given, and changing my behaviour as a result.

Pantofino Fri 07-Dec-12 21:05:31

I was going to post further argument....but realise I am wasting my time. Op has already posted at length on other threads about this lazy fuckwit. Op - you only want advice on how to "improve" him. That just ain't happening.

When I got with DH, I owned a house and earned more money than him, but I never, ever would have had cause to come on MN and berate him like this. He ALWAYS paid his way, he never felt entitled, he always did his share of household tasks. We had dd before we got married, and again he supported me fully. All the money went in the joint account proportionately so we had the same amount of spending money.

If you need counselling BEFORE you are married and have children there is NO BLOODY HOPE. Please, please face it that you are with the WRONG person.

Ambivalence Fri 07-Dec-12 21:06:54

Pirates - yes. i know. bothers me a lot.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 21:15:19

Of course some people who are not married go to relate but it doesn't make it a good plan unless maybe you have children together. Relate is for people who have important reasons for needing to stay together like that they are married and want to avoid the pain and expense of divorce or that they have children and want to make sure they have tried everything before splitting up. It is NOT for people to "fix" their incompatible boyfriend... But they will take your money anyway...

Alibabaandthe40nappies Fri 07-Dec-12 21:17:38

So leave him and then you are free to meet someone else!

I wonder if there is part of you that feels very grown up with your counselling and your pre-nup and all the rest of it? You are giving yourself a pat on the back for being so sensible, etc etc.

Offred Fri 07-Dec-12 21:35:01

From reading some of your other threads it does not sound at all like your father sorted himself out either and your siblings and you have been very badly affected. You are just completely modelling this terrible example - why?

I think alibaba has a good point. Sometimes if you feel inadequate all that "being sensible" stuff can buoy you up, even more so if you can teach some man child something about being responsible, it gives you a purpose and a good feeling of self-confidence... For a while, until you have real responsibilities and need to share the pressure with someone else.

On other threads you said you couldn't be a single mum because you need someone to share the pressure with well a man like this is worse than nothing, he makes your life much harder for no reason, maybe not because he is particularly bad as a person but simply because you want different things out of life and are incompatible. You way and your wants don't trump his and you can't make him change if he doesn't share your values.

whois Fri 07-Dec-12 22:19:47

If you need counselling BEFORE you are married and have children there is NO BLOODY HOPE. Please, please face it that you are with the WRONG person

^ This!!!!

Cahoootz Fri 07-Dec-12 23:56:26

ambivalence
I am listening to the advice i am being given, and changing my behaviour as a result.

I really hope you are because you seem hell bent on marrying this loser. I posted on one of your earlier threads suggesting that, at the very least, you prospone any marriage plans for a few years. I still think this is the very least you should do.

Is he still binge drinking and smoking?

Cahoootz Fri 07-Dec-12 23:57:48

Postpone not propone. blush

splintersinmebum Sat 08-Dec-12 02:27:35

Actually, he sounds pretty good to me. OP and her friends list lots of positive qualities and say how happy he makes her.

OP - I don't think you can take the high moral ground. You don't like the thought of staying home to care for any future babies you might have and plan to increase your working hours if you have children so you can pay for private secondary education. You have weird priorities if you ask me.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 16:34:13

It goes from bad to worse! So he did give me the £200 back for the bar bill, but had also made an appointment with the bank to discuss getting out a loan. He owes £1,500 on a credit card ( this is the balance for my engagement ring). His mother gave him 5,000 Euros ( approx £4,000) in August, and so I thought the balance for the engagement ring had been cleared, but no – he had also received Dutch tax bill and spent the money on that instead.

His mother is sending him £2,200 euros (approx £1800) which should arrive in the next week or so. I think this is a bail out rather than a Christmas present. He had been planning to spend that on settling his credit card and take out a £5,000 loan to pay for Christmas and our honeymoon.

I have told him he should absolutely not take out a loan, and that he needed to be honest to me about where his money goes so that we can make a budget ( he needs to take ownership of this).

He said he has prepared his financial info for Tuesday’s relate session, but so far – all I( have been told is that he has £400 in his current account, owes £1,500 on his credit card ( this has been outstanding since August so might be more than that now – he has not told me what the interest rate is on the card), and is expecting 2,200 euros ( approx £1,800) from his mother.

My friends and my mother all say that I need to nag him less about this, and that if I keep going on about this, he won’t listen.

I am really cross that he would contemplate taking out a loan without telling me! I hope he would be refused one anyway.

My friends ( female and male, have discussed this with 5 married friends and one of their husbands) unilateral advice is that I need to persuade him to set up weekly direct debits for the bills, savings etc and he needs to be on a reduced, cash only spending money - eg £50 a week.

I am horrified that on the way back from making an appointment with the bank for a £5,000 loan, he decided to stop at the pub and treat himself to a £5 glass of wine – he just seems unable to correlate his behaviour! He admits that he has no savings because he spends his money on cigarettes and down the pub, but then does nothing at all to change.

I am thoroughly fed up! I am also annoyed that advice from my friends has been to tip toe around this subject.

Redstockingswillstopsanta Mon 10-Dec-12 16:44:12

You don't really want any advice,you will just ignore it especially when it's not what you want to hear.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 16:47:15

I do want advice on how to handle this and what to do. The advice I am ignoring is to leave him, because I don’t intend to do this. As far as i am concerned I have made a commitment in getting engaged to marry, and I am not going to postpone the wedding or leave him. I would like advice on how to approach things with him and what to do though.

I understand my position must be very frustrating, but I do want advice.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Mon 10-Dec-12 16:49:53

meh.

biscuit

fuzzpig Mon 10-Dec-12 16:52:45

This will only get worse.

CajaDeLaMemoria Mon 10-Dec-12 16:54:37

Ignoring the romantic aspect for a moment, do you need credit for your job?

If you do, you cannot marry him until he has got this under control. You may be able to pay off his debts now, but he'll just run up more while living this life that he can't afford, and hide it from you. Your credit file will become trashed by association.

I'd also consider legal protection like a pre nup, and make sure any money you put into properties like deposits is protected. If you are intent on going down this road with him, you need to protect yourself and your future children from him.

He isn't going to change. That's the big decision between him and your dad. Your dad must have wanted to change, and be able too. What if your fiance can't? What if he doesn't want too?

Take care of the practicalities.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 10-Dec-12 16:59:27

OP how can we advise you? You cannot make a person change, only they can do that.

Now going back to your example of your parents. Clearly your father loved your mother enough to be motivated to alter his behaviour. It seems that your partner does not live you enough - more he doesn't have to because you have made it clear that you will accept whatever treatment he chooses to meet out.

What happened to all your sanctions?

You need to grow a backbone, and until you do no-one can help you.

1charlie1 Mon 10-Dec-12 17:07:43

Just read through this, and wanted to post. As you have said, 'I am not going to postpone the wedding or leave him.' So basically, what you are saying to us, and clearly, to him, is that nothing he is doing is actually a deal breaker for you. So why on earth would he change? He's had a lifetime of being bailed out by his mum. He is replicating this pattern with you. And like that of a mother, your love seems pretty much unconditional. But he is not your child.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 17:12:56

Well he did pay the £200 for the bar bill, he has set up a weekly direct debit for the £100 bill money ( although this does not start until January, which I am not pleased with, and I will be expecting this all to be up to date before Christmas).

We are going to the Relate counsellor tomorrow to discuss this budget – he has told me what he owes, but he hasn’t come up with a plan of how to save. Tomorrow night I need him to agree to set up (1) start the direct debit for the bill money straight away
(2) set up a direct debit to me of £50 a week which will be his emergency savings
(3) come up with a schedule for paying off the credit card and a plan for saving for the honeymoon.

I realise he is not motivated to change as he knows I am not going to end the relationship, but equally I am not willing to let him carry on as he has been – frittering away his money and now – getting into debt. I realise he has to reach rock bottom in order to change. I am hoping that not being able to see his family for Christmas will be that rock bottom.

richardsimmonstanktop Mon 10-Dec-12 17:15:41

I agree with the posters above. Do you really think he will improve? OF COURSE NOT. Like the others have said time and time again - why should he? He knows you won't leave him, he has no reason to change. And you're thinking of throwing a baby into that mix? I'm going hide this thread, too depressing.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 10-Dec-12 17:18:49

I am not willing to let him carry on as he has been

Yes you are. Because you are determined to marry him no matter what. So even if you end up paying for the honeymoon, the family house, the school fees and everything else yourself, you will still marry him and stay with him.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 17:21:00

I think love should be unconditional – and he is being crap with money – it is not like he is cheating on me, or abusing me. I have been brought up with the view that marriage is for life, and you work through your problems. We have promised to marry each other, and so are in a committed relationship. I am not just going to walk off.

So the sanctions I can impose are withdrawing my support and affection – that is it.

It is difficult because he is being treated for depression ( it seems quite severe as at the doctors it was 19/26 in her scale of severity) and only recently does it seem the anti-depressants are up to an effective dose. I wouldn’t expect him to walk out on me if I was depressed.

It seems all I can do is let him flounder financially until he is motivated to sort things out, and just not depend on him financially at all.

givemeaclue Mon 10-Dec-12 17:26:25

Earlier on this thread I said that he yo le take out credit agreements behind your back. You said he would never dotthat. If just has.

There is no advice anyone can give you. He
won't change and you won't leave him no matter what. The only advice we can give is to get ready for a lifetime of this. Because that is what you are choosing.

1charlie1 Mon 10-Dec-12 17:26:42

But he will never hit bottom. His mum will step in and sort him out, like she always has.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 17:29:54

I am not minimising him taking out credit behind my back – I am really shocked he would even think of this. I have made it clear to him that I won’t pay his credit cards. I don’t think ending the relationship is an option though. What else can I do?

What is the point of this thread, OP?

You don't want advice, you say you do but are cheerfully ignoring it, I can picture you fingers in ears going 'lalala I can't hear you'.

You say he's not abusing you. Financial deprivation is domestic abuse. You may not rely on him financially but he is depriving you of your own finances whilst he happily cocklodges.

Actually you know what I can't be arsed as you're not listening.

CaHoHoHootz Mon 10-Dec-12 17:31:43

If you don't want to cancel the wedding, why don't you postpone it (as already suggested by lots of sensible MN'ers including me )

If you were not planning to have DC's then I think it is OK to marry whoever you want but you are choosing this manboy to be the father of your, yet unborn, DC's. You will have a family with underlying financial and emotional problems. Do you honestly think it is a good idea? Misty eyed love DOES NOT conquer all.

Seriously, think of the children! sad

Are you sure it is not just misplaced pride that stops you postponing the wedding?

(ps. I am see that his previous declarations to stop smoking have amounted to nothing)

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 10-Dec-12 17:34:01

Of course he is abusing you. He is lying to you about money, taking out loans behind your back and and expecting you to fund his living expenses and lifestyle.

He is depressed. Ok, but he has always been shit with money. So it isn't a product of the depression.

You are going to withdraw your support and affection, but still marry him? Are you absolutely deluded?

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 10-Dec-12 17:35:08

WHY is ending the relationship not an option?

Is it because you would lose face in front of your family and friends?

givemeaclue Mon 10-Dec-12 17:35:09

It's not all you can do. You can choose to realize he is a selfish idiot and move on.

I think love should be unconditional – and he is being crap with money – it is not like he is cheating on me, or abusing me

Yes he is abusing you, financial abuse is a form of abuse. Look at the amount of energy and headspace its taking up for you. Its sucking all the joy out of your relationship and killing the trust. When you are married and you get your card declined in the supermarket because he has empty the joint account how will you feel? When you get baliffs trying to get entry to your property because he is behind with his loan or credit card payments listed at your marital home address will you still just think he is a bit crap with money?

"Financial abuse can take many forms, from denying you all access to funds, to making you solely responsible for all finances while handling money irresponsibly him or herself."
www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/financial_abuse.html

givemeaclue Mon 10-Dec-12 17:40:32

You keep "making it clear " to him about things but he doesn't give a hoot. The only thing you are making clear is he can do what the hell he wants. I think infidelity can't be far behind. "He would never do that" I hear you cry....you said that about him taking out credit behind your back.

For goodness sake postpone the wedding.

Paiviaso Mon 10-Dec-12 17:41:41

"The advice I am ignoring is to leave him, because I don’t intend to do this."

So then here's what is going to happen. He is going to continue to be the same man you've always known - financially irresponsible, immature, and selfish. You are going to marry him anyways. His failings will still be there after your married, and as the years pass you will become increasingly embittered.

Happy to help.

ifso Mon 10-Dec-12 17:46:45

you must be exhausted putting up with a man of this age behaving like this

you're carrying all responsibilities of life for him

do you really want to get married? when is your wedding?

HoFlippinHo Mon 10-Dec-12 17:47:46

I've only just seen this thread and my first reaction is that, to an outsider, it looks like you are paying him to be with you. Where's your dignity? Marrying someone who will pay nothing towards the wedding? Living with a man you have to bail out again and again. He's looking for a mother substitute to prop him up financially and he's found you.

sad

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 17:48:15

The point of this threads was to get opinions on whether I am over reacting to his spending/ lack of budgeting etc or not. I am surprised how unanimous opinions were that he is financially and emotionally abusive – so I am printing out this thread to take to tomorrow’s relate session.

I am also considering postponing the registration of the marriage (civil ceremony) and will certainly not be having children unless and until this is resolved.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Mon 10-Dec-12 17:55:35

You won't leave him and he knows it.
You will marry him anyway and he knows it.
You won't leave him once you're married and he knows it.
You want children and once you are married he is your only option for this and he knows it.
He is lying to you about money.
He is feckless with money.
He expects women in his life to bail him out and his DM won't be around for ever.

Tell me where his rock bottom is because I don't see it. Please print this out for your counselling and keep a copy. In ten years read it again. You will see it with different eyes, I promise.

Smudging Mon 10-Dec-12 18:14:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 18:18:32

I have emailed this thread to him and our relate therapist

Offred Mon 10-Dec-12 18:34:09

If you do not leave him, having discovered that you are incompatible and you continue to try and change him then YOU are abusive. Reading all the threads you sound like a right pair.

StuntGirl Mon 10-Dec-12 18:35:46

"So then here's what is going to happen. He is going to continue to be the same man you've always known - financially irresponsible, immature, and selfish. You are going to marry him anyways. His failings will still be there after your married, and as the years pass you will become increasingly embittered."

"You won't leave him and he knows it.
You will marry him anyway and he knows it.
You won't leave him once you're married and he knows it.
You want children and once you are married he is your only option for this and he knows it.
He is lying to you about money.
He is feckless with money.
He expects women in his life to bail him out and his DM won't be around for ever.

Tell me where his rock bottom is because I don't see it. Please print this out for your counselling and keep a copy. In ten years read it again. You will see it with different eyes, I promise."

I thought these two points were so salient they deserved repeating. This is your future OP. Think about it.

drcrab Mon 10-Dec-12 18:38:53

Do you get some kind of martyr like kick out of 'saving' him from his plight and then getting everyone to love you more because you have saved this person from dire straits?

My goodness woman. Take a good hard look at all the posts here. If you are my sister I'd be shaking you real hard (metaphorically) and telling you off. And I'll be telling our mum everything you've said here because there's no way as a mum I would want my daughter to suffer that. Regardless of how much she loves him. Scratch that... How much she thinks she loves him.

Offred Mon 10-Dec-12 20:12:32

Drcrab - her mum did the same thing with her dad and it messed them all up by the sounds of it but none of them will admit it. I doubt she'd be bothered.

Ambivalence Mon 10-Dec-12 20:20:42

I am bothered, I do realise I am recreating the situation with my parents, but have no idea how else to proceed. I think LTB is not the way forward, at all - I tried that 8 years ago and it didn't work! It was me who re-ignited this relationship, and it is not because I am broody, I am not that bothered about having kids, it was because that relationship not working out was my biggest regret.

A lifetime si a long time to spend missing someone.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Mon 10-Dec-12 20:24:04

So he has got you subbing him while he spends his own money on crap and doesn't pay his fair share.

And he has somehow convinced you that he's crap with money?

Sounds to me like he's excellent with money.

He gets to keep all his and spend it on shite while you keep a roof over his head.

HECTheHallsWithRowsAndFolly Mon 10-Dec-12 20:30:30

x post.

Marry him, if that's what you want. Have your happy ever after, if he's the love of your life. The one you can't live without.

but go into it knowing and accepting that he will spend the money you earn on crap and/or you'll have a lifetime of budgeting for him and treating him like a teenager. Maybe giving him an 'allowance'.

Understand and accept that you will be paying his way. you have the option of doing the one pot thing. Everything into the family is equally belonging to both of you. No your money and his money. So it's ok if he spends what you've earned. Because it's all family money.

If you're ok with that, then there's no problem.

We do that. Doesn't matter who brings what in, it's all ours.

Just don't proceed and at the same time have resentments. You've chosen this. So you need to be happy about it.

drcrab Mon 10-Dec-12 20:47:48

8 years is not a lifetime. The next 50 years IS. Wake up.

My aunt left our country in her late 30s to go live somewhere else because she had no partner, fed up with her life, job etc. she found a partner and married him and had a daughter who's now in her mid 20s. For the most part they are happy.

The point is: you can always start again at any age. You can. I've fallen for boyfriends and broken up with them. Felt like shit, cried buckets, went round a store in a rural part of Germany crying my eyes out...! Felt if never get over this particular person. But I did.

Not dissing your feelings. We have all been there. But it's ridiculous that you are wanting to throw away your life, potential financial worth, your current financial state for a man who isn't your equal!!!!!

My dh doesn't earn what I earn. Coupled with his redundancy and his setting up shop, we have taken huge hits. But he pulls his weight. Of course we get mad at each other - not perfect. But he is an equal.

I've also had v highly qualified friends who've decided to partner up with 'less qualified' OHs. Not an issue either because there is mutual respect. You mentioned v early on that you started to lose your respect for him. If that's the case then wtf are you still with him????

And I'm sorry but I cannot believe your mother is telling you to lay off the nagging. Unless she really doesn't care for you. If I suffered my whole life with a feckless dh who I had to control and reign in like all my kids, no way in hell would I want my children to suffer the same way. What would I get in return??

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 10-Dec-12 20:48:21

It is also a long time to spend resenting someone.

What Hecate said though. Do it if you must, but accept the situation as it stands if you do. Otherwise you will be bitter and resentful and end up hating him.

drcrab Mon 10-Dec-12 20:57:05

That relationship not working out is your biggest regret. And now you are back to try again. Great. But he's not trying!!! For whatever reason he's just not that into you. Really.

It's just someone who you thought was your best friend. Turns out you are always lending her money, buying her meals, buying her expensive stuff, listening to her stories. But she's not reciprocating. Time to stop that friendship then.

And it's not the same as saying ok it's a relationship like those sahp and one working parent. You can't even trust him to be able to do the shop without stopping for a £5 glass of wine. So even if you give him £50 and a shopping list, he can always say whoops there was no cheese and sneak off for his fags/drink. So what you'll end up doing is do the shop yourself (and he saves himself a trip and another task to do!!). Ditto for kids. Will he actually take the child to the toddler group or music group? Or will he spend that £5 on crap and then lie to you? Your 8 month old won't be able to tell you that they were at music or at soft play...!

ilovesooty Mon 10-Dec-12 21:26:07

Is your counsellor doing any therapeutic work with you or just dealing with budgets?

What are you expecting her to do with the contents of this thread?

And she shouldn't be engaging with one party while doing couples therapy - much less doing individual counselling with one half of the couple. What in heaven's name is she playing at?

CaHoHoHootz Mon 10-Dec-12 21:49:35

Would you have been so eager to rekindle this relationship if you had known that he had not matured during the time you were apart?

ZZZenAgain Mon 10-Dec-12 21:55:29

try to sort big things out before you get married. I don't know if you two will have a happy marriage or not because we don't know all the good sides but it doesn't sound to me as if you are entirely ready yet.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 06:50:12

You didn't get over him because in the interim period you did not do any work on overcoming the crap imprinted from your childhood or the crap being taught to you now from your mother. This is nothing to do with you or him, this is you proving to your mother she didn't make a massive mistake with her marriage.

FellatioNelson Tue 11-Dec-12 07:04:23

Completely and totally agree with what Hec said at 20:30:30

After 11 pages, she's managed to sum it all up on one small paragraph.

Either accept him as he is and stop wringing your hands over it, or leave.

I am actually quite alarmed that you busy planning to marry a man you need to go to Relate couples counselling with. confused

That's not normal.

BadLad Tue 11-Dec-12 08:39:35

It was a long time ago in the thread, but a few posters have asked how on earth an adult can be crap with money and need a bailout from their parents.

Well, it is not at all uncommon - have a gander at the moneysavingexpert forums. And there are plenty of success stories there about people getting out of their mess.

But you can only help those who want to be helped, and the OP's DF is sounding like quite the opposite of that. And why should he want anything to change? The status quo is his having his cake and eating it.

Seeing as you aren't going to leave him for anything, you don't have any ultimatum or consequence for him if he doesn't change his behaviour. How about a trial separation, until he gets some sort of sense into his finances?

You'd be doing it for him as much as for yourself.

I think I'd also be tempted to get on the phone to his mother and ask her to stop bailing him out. Short term hassles for long term solution.

StuntGirl Tue 11-Dec-12 11:35:24

I agree, you have two options:

Accept this is how things will always be and marry him.

Or LTB.

Whocansay Tue 11-Dec-12 11:41:38

OP, did you come on here wanting people to go "There, there, he's lovely really, tut men!"?

The fact that you are going to send this to him when you have clearly stated that ultimately you will put up with his behaviour, is astounding!

I really hope you don't bring a child into this car crash of a relationship.

wildfig Tue 11-Dec-12 12:21:22

OP, did your mother enjoy having to whip your dad into line financially? It sounds like an exhausting way to live. Whether she did or not - and I imagine she'd find it hard to admit that she didn't - you're not her and your fiance isn't your dad.

I disagree somewhat with those saying that going to Relate before getting married is a Sign of Doom. If, as a couple, you're not good at constructive discussions, learning how to negotiate your way around small problems can help you deal with them before they turn into bigger problems. But that only works if you're both prepared to take on the responsibility, and not just use the counsellor as a substitute Mum to tell off one party while giving the other a gold star. It sounds, from what you've written, that your DF isn't listening to anything she says, and that you're determined to hear that as long as he makes this budget it'll all be fine. As others have said again and again on this thread, it's not about the budget itself, it's about the fact that he doesn't respect you enough to modify his behaviour in any way.

Ambivalence Tue 11-Dec-12 13:21:38

Offred - This is nothing to do with you or him, this is you proving to your mother she didn't make a massive mistake with her marriage. yes, sometimes I wonder this.

Wild fig - it's not about the budget itself, it's about the fact that he doesn't respect you enough to modify his behaviour in any way. This is the crux of it

He behaves in such an entitled fashion and is being so disrespectful to me that I can see a trial separation as the only way to move forward. Phoning his mother and telling her to stop bailing him out is hopeless – his family don’t do confrontation, so she will just say we need to sort this out between ourselves and it is nothing to do with her.

I have concluded that he loves booze and fags more than he loves me, and I can’t live with someone who is not being honest with me.

Yes, I was hoping that people on here would say I am over reacting - that is what my friends and family are saying – be patient, he will learn in time – but he won’t . He hasn’t grown up and has no intention of doing so.

KellyEllyChristmasBelly Tue 11-Dec-12 13:26:28

it was because that relationship not working out was my biggest regret. but you have come back to the same problems so it isn't going to work out again. You were apart and had rose-tinted views of what the relationship could have been and now you are back in it and facing the same problems. This situation with the way he controls his finances is a sticking point for you, but he won't change at his age - especially if he has a mother who still facilitates this, you will just take her place. You have either got to move on from this relationship or just fully accept this side of him and stop posting on MN about it going round and round in circles. Good luck OP genuinely. You'll need it.

Arithmeticulous Tue 11-Dec-12 13:29:00

You've wasted 14 years (if my maths is correct) on this man-child. What's that saying: if a man tells you who he is, listen? He's told you for the last 14 years that he's an entitled baby that needs bailing out by you or his mother. And you've told him that you will stay with him, whether or not he ever grows up or starts being honest.

He's happy - he's not going to change. Why would he? You can't make him change - you can only change your reactions to his behaviour.

GoldQuintessenceAndMyhrr Tue 11-Dec-12 14:05:59

"A lifetime is a long time to be missing someone"

Now you are just being melodramatic.

Accept him for who is is then, if you missed him so much, rather than try change him.
Marry him. Whatever.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 14:16:52

Fig - surely going to relate before marriage is doomed because there's no reason to marry someone you find it hard to communicate with. If it is a problem with one person rather than the relationship then relate is inappropriate.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 14:21:34

If you were to waste spend your whole life missing one person I'd tend to think the problem was with you, not with you losing them. You should be able to be on your own and you should not be so desperately attached to this one man. Do you think it is because perhaps your mum attaches her entire self-worth to your dad and having "turned him around"? Are you falling into the same trap? Do you feel so desperately attached to him because of this?

Weissdorn Tue 11-Dec-12 14:33:51

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 11-Dec-12 14:53:24

OP, would you leave if he abused your child? Yes? Then the love is not unconditional.

I'm glad you are seeing some of what is being said. I hope you don't find yourself in 10 years still babysitting a middle-aged man.

It might be worth doing some work on yourself to find where this fairy-tale, Disney, love will conquer all, attitude comes from. I thought like that as a child but didn't after about 21. You are quite mature to still think of love in these black and white terms.

wildfig Tue 11-Dec-12 14:54:24

Well, no, offred I don't necessarily think so. Not everyone has the communication skills to deal with sensitive issues in relationships. Some people come from families who 'don't do confrontation' - like the OP's fiance - or they associate disagreement with terminal relationship decline, and just ignore problems, hoping they'll go away. My DP and I understand each other pretty well, but persuading him to talk about anything emotional is like wringing blood from a stone. Getting an impartial counsellor to guide you through tricky conversations isn't a sign that you're incompatible, it's just a sign that you or the other person might need help in learning how to express yourself.

Whether you then decide that you're not compatible, having fully understood how the other feels, is a different thing! Particularly if one party's using the 'you don't understand me' line as a way of doing whatever they want, or making all the right noises in the sessions, but then doing nothing about it outside. Counselling shouldn't be about the counsellor fixing the problem, but equipping you with the skills to fix it yourself, or to decide it's not fixable.

givemeaclue Tue 11-Dec-12 15:43:50

Somehow don't think today's counseling is going to go that well

ilovesooty Tue 11-Dec-12 19:43:22

I would still like to know why they are working with a counsellor who seems to have no understanding of the role and boundaries of the therapist in couples work.

Offred Tue 11-Dec-12 19:58:09

But fig if the other person needs to learn how to communicate that is not a relationship problem that requires couples counselling. It is an individual problem which needs individual exploration otherwise it becomes about taking dual responsibility for an individual fault/incompatibility which is unhealthy. If you aren't married, you dont have children and you have a problem with the way you each relate to each other in the relationship why bother to work on it? Why not just split up? Plenty of people never work out issues they attempt to fix in relationship counselling...

How was the relate session today OP?

LisaMed Tue 11-Dec-12 20:16:18

Nearly posted a bitchy comment.

OP - if you marry this man you will live in poverty and so will any children you have. The only way that you will not do this is if you work out ways of protecting your own income, maximising it especially on maternity leave, and working round his spending habits. You will need to do things like go to CIFAS and get financially disassociated, never have a joint account, never have joint financial products etc. You will need to learn how to deal with his creditors and detach from the hassle. If you forsee bailiffs then it is a good idea to keep receipts of big ticket items to prove that you paid for them.

The above is the nice version.

I think it is time for him to prove himself to you and to prove that I am wrong. In this case, proof is in actions, not words. Good luck.

Ambivalence Tue 11-Dec-12 20:32:51

Well our therapist. did not read this thread. against relate rules apparently. she was unhappi had issued an ultimatum and said if i was to continue with thatwe needed to see a mediator instead.
he has committed to resolve the loony financial ssues. by setting up direct debts.

Will post more later as we are still talking

MrsTerrysChocolateOrange Tue 11-Dec-12 21:02:51

Good luck Ambilalence. Sounds like you need a new therapist and a new boyfriend.

Therapist sounds incompetent.

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