What to do about neurotic YR 5/6 teachers?

(194 Posts)
AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 20:47:49

I'm not saying that my DSs are saints but the teachers of previous years have never complained about their behaviour at school! Since the beginning of this academic year, though, the two female teachers for Yrs 5 and 6 are telling them off and making them cry at least once a week! For example:
DS1 (yr 6) got badly told off for bouncing a ball while he was walking to the assembly line and the ball was confiscated for two days.
DS2 (yr 5) got into serious trouble for flicking a pencil during a lesson.
DS1 got shouted at for talking during a lesson and for daring to say that other people were talking too.
Also they tell me that one of these two teachers refers to some other children as "idiots" and the other one is shouting half of the time and almost always at boys only.
AIBU or this is totally unacceptable?

ohfunnyface Wed 05-Dec-12 20:53:25

Annaliz- kids underplay their own misbehaviour and exaggerate the 'injustice' they suffer.

The more you listen and indulge, the more they will complain.

If you don't support the school, you'll teach them that it's ok to challenge authority, not to respect a punishment or sanction and that their feelings are more important than those of the other pupils in their class.

Answering back, disruptive behaviour and breaking school rules are all low level challenges- much better for a school to have high standards than allowing a few students disrupting learning for everyone else.

StuntGirl Wed 05-Dec-12 20:54:13

Your 10/11 year old cried because he was told off for bouncing a ball? And he cries at least once a week over similar things?

Talking during the lesson disrupts it for others, no wonder he was told off. And 'daring to tell the teacher other people were talking' would be backchat.

Squitch Wed 05-Dec-12 20:55:20

YABU about the tellings off - I am sure that a yr 6 child should know better than to bounce a ball whilst joining a line. Imagine if 30 children were doing it, should the teacher just let them. Of course children shouldn't flick pencils, would you be ok with your child being hurt? Teachers regularly tell children off for talking during a lesson and although I sympathise that others were perhaps doing it too, unfortunately shit happens. Sometimes you get caught!

I would be concerned if a teacher called my dd an idiot, are you sure this is what happened?

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 20:55:56

I work in a school. I would tell children off for all the things in your list too, and the ball would be confiscated till the end of term. Have you ever been hit by a flicked pencil? It hurts!

squeakytoy Wed 05-Dec-12 20:56:35

I think you need to tell your children to be better behaved.

bamboostalks Wed 05-Dec-12 20:56:53

Do nothing at all re teachers. Tell your boys to behave. It's time they stopped messing about, preventing their own and others' learning.

crazygracieuk Wed 05-Dec-12 20:57:34

Are you sure that you're getting the whole story?

I think the ball should be confiscated and if the pencil was flicked at an inappropriate time or hit someone then I'd expect them to be told off.

My dd is in Y5 and if ball bouncing was ok then she'd chat or skip (equally minor but annoying for a teacher) and if the pencil hit her, she'd definitely tell off your son.

ViperInTheManger Wed 05-Dec-12 20:57:57

Absolutely agree with ohfunnyface. You need to back the teachers up, not undermine them for the sake of your childrens' long term behaviour. If you keep indulging them you may find them hard to control when they are teenagers as they will lose respect for any authority.

Catsnotrats Wed 05-Dec-12 20:58:12

Being told off for messing around (which they were) is fine, shouting a lot is not.

However I would take your ds's reports with a pinch of salt. I find that children use the term 'shouted at' to mean being sternly told off even if there was no raising of voices. I don't know if this is what your dss mean as I don't know them or their situation.

Using the term idiot is also could be taken too ways. I have on occasions called my year 6s idiots, but only in a gentle teasing way when they have done something daft - and I always do it with a smile so their is no doubt. Again I don't know what is happening in this situation as I don't know the people involved.

The gender issue is a red herring (being female teachers has nothing to do with it). Boys of this age are more likely to get told off for indulging in silly behaviour because their maturity levels are often behind girls (not always though - I have a few immature girls who get regularly reprimanded).

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 20:58:19

I agree with the posts above. Your sons are old enough to realise that poor behaviour has consequences and you should be supporting the school.

HassledHasASledge Wed 05-Dec-12 20:58:38

No Yr 6 child should be bouncing a ball as they walk to assembly. Your DS1 would have known damn well that it wasn't exactly top of the "recommended things to do as you walk to assembly" list. He got told off for it - absolutely fair enough.

No Yr5 child should be flicking pencils - again, being told off can hardly have come as a surprise to him.

Just because other children are talking in class, it doesn't mean it's necessarily OK - and yes, your DS would be able to know when it is and isn't OK. This is his 7th year of education - he knows the score (SN excepted). He's pushing the boundaries, which Yr6 children are notorious for - your role, though, is to support the school in reinforcing where those boundaries are, not in belittling the staff with words like "neurotic".

Catsnotrats Wed 05-Dec-12 20:58:53

That should be two not too!

apostrophethesnowman Wed 05-Dec-12 20:59:13

You have got to be having a laugh.

You should be telling your sons off for their misbehaviour instead of criticising the teachers for dealing with it.

crazygracieuk Wed 05-Dec-12 20:59:34

With regards to the crying, are other children crying or just your sons? My dd is imho overly sensitive but has never cried after being told off by a teacher (she's a chatterbox so almost definitely been told off)

NatashaBee Wed 05-Dec-12 21:01:58

They are 1/2 years away from senior school where teachers definitely won't tolerate that sort of behaviour - probably a good time for them to start learning to control their behaviour!

NolittleBuddahsorTigerMomshere Wed 05-Dec-12 21:04:23

Perhaps DCs are having a little hormone surge? Perhaps that coupled with the excitement and stress that the last year of PS can bring, could explain any change. This has happened to a number of friends' DCs in the past. However, you know your DCs better than anyone, so if you feel that such a change is unlikely I would approach the teachers as making a child cry so often is uncalled for, unless you DCs were born with their bladders too near their eyes as one of mine was! grin I wouldn't go in heavy handed with a list of examples as this could make you look a bit pfb. If it were me, I would try and catch both together and say something along the lines of:

'Mrs/Mr X, the DC's have been telling me that you don't seem to be very happy with them quite a lot of the time at the moment, do you think that this change in their behaviour / attitude is something to worry about? Is there anything we can work on at home?'

Then if needed, I would address/ challenge their responses accordingly.

As for calling children idiots, that is a appaling, but IMO not something you can address without conclusive proof (DCs do somtimes exagerate about teachers they don't get along with --- I know I did.)

HTH

Annunziata Wed 05-Dec-12 21:04:38

You have got to be kidding. Discipline your sons.

ravenAK Wed 05-Dec-12 21:04:50

Yup, the behaviours described are silly & too right they'd get spoken to sharply for either of them.

By year 5/6 both boys should know better.

Also, even assuming that you think the teachers are coming down on them too harshly, you might be better using words like 'strict', rather than 'neurotic'.

My tutor group are year 8, & I can assure you, I know which parents supported their children by ensuring they know how to behave by the end of primary, & which...well, didn't. It does the dc no favours.

Cortana Wed 05-Dec-12 21:05:41

YABU. For all of the reasons given above.

Support the school.

CombineBananaFister Wed 05-Dec-12 21:06:21

It does sound seemingly trivial stuff BUT its the underlaying message of disobedience/disrespect that bothers me not the individual incidents. I do think though that sometimes teachers are a bit harsher on boys (but in the lower years) due to different emotional needs and their being a bit too active ALL the time , at this age I would think everyone knows better. Am quoting a teacher friend on the boys being a bit full on when younger and as Ds is 3 I can see where she's coming from but your guys should be past this?

bradyismyfavouritewiseman Wed 05-Dec-12 21:07:10

What were the teachers versions of events?

because clearly if they are being made to cry every week you will have already spoken to them.

ppeatfruit Wed 05-Dec-12 21:07:11

YANBU I reckon your DS's are lucky they've never been shouted at and 'in trouble' in the lower years of the school. In my E. a number of teachers don't enjoy the exuberance of boys.

DS1 was in a class where the teacher was pointedly mean to bright boys. DD2 had been in that class and she knew the teacher only liked girls. Weirder still I knew the woman socially and she had 2 bright boys of her own shock

All you can do is have a chat with the Head and gently point out the problem, although unless you know other parents who have the same difficulty you'll be lucky if the Head is sympathetic. Good luck smile

Floggingmolly Wed 05-Dec-12 21:08:33

They need to learn to behave. How do you know they are being reduced to tears by being (rightfully) told off, btw? Do they really come home and say "Mum, I cried my eyes out today when Miss told me off"? Too dramatic for words.

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:10:57

Agree they shouldn't have done those things but they're children for goodness sake! I have heard one of the two teachers shout a lot and over silly stuff like leaving a door open (during parents' evening). She admits she's stressed and can't wait to retire. The other one apparently refers to children doing something wrong as idiots and not in a joking way.
Yes I was surprised too why they said they actually cry. They're big boys and hardly we've cry at home. Clearly something is not right and yes I think it's unnecessary to be overly mean for minor misdemeanours

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:14:47

*hardly ever cry at home

Annunziata Wed 05-Dec-12 21:15:25

So? Children need to learn to behave. When do you think is old enough to not bounce balls and flick pencils in class?

apostrophethesnowman Wed 05-Dec-12 21:16:03

I pity the teachers if that's your attitude. shock

HassledHasASledge Wed 05-Dec-12 21:16:17

Individually yes, they are minor dismeanours. As part of a pattern, though, of repeated disobedience and flouting of what they know to be the rules - well, that makes it less minor. They're being told off at least once a week - so at least once a week they're doing something.

If you really believe the problem is the teachers and not your children then you need to make an appointment to see the Head. But I think a period of you reinforcing the "don't mess about in school" line at home may turn things around.

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:16:30

I have spoken to the shouty teacher about the ball bouncing incident and tbh she seemed to feel a bit embarrassed and having crocodile tears about the whole thing. She'd always been raving about DS1 upon until then.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 21:17:13

"but they're children for goodness sake" - come on, they are Year 5 and 6. They need to know that they can't do whatever they like. There are 30 kids in the class and if everyone could bounce balls, chat, flick pencils, how much work would get done?

ghoulelocks Wed 05-Dec-12 21:18:17

Right, normally I don't bother but I'll explain WHY these things are disciplined as such so it makes sense.

1.bouncing balls and other silly things they are told not to do mean huge amounts of time can be wasted instead of following very simple instruction properly. Do you want children learning or spending 15 min every time they transition from one lesson/ place to another?
2. flicking pencils in a confined space is dangerous and disruptive, at worst the point could catch someone in the eye and at best it will interrupt learning
3. Answering back wastes time, if every child answered back every instruction no learning would take place as there would be constant dialogue about pointless matters.

Learning is the key.

If your children cannot grasp this or evaluate the situation and realise why they are being shouted at/ told off then to be blunt I'd have a big pinch of salt to hand when they told me about another situation involving the word 'idiot' or shouting. It sounds like they might be happier at school if you talked through with them WHY they are getting into trouble and supported them in receiving positive feedback in class. If you don't back the school up and allow your boys to keep getting into trouble over petty things without teaching them why it's happening then they are not going to be as happy as they could be in the school environment as they will be torn between different expectations and values constantly. It's not fair on them.

The teacher wouldn't be able to over-react if they weren't doing wrong in the first place. My DS is in year 6 if this was him I would be lecturing him about being better behaved.

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:18:42

Yes I agree but aren't "good" children allowed to get something wrong every now and again?

jamdonut Wed 05-Dec-12 21:18:43

Flicked pencils! It is low level disruption...one starts and then others do it at various intervals...pencils clattering is like chinese water torture.

And why on earth did he have a ball, in class,while lining up for assembly, anyway? I would have had that off him pretty sharply.

Also..why was your child talking during a lesson? Just because others were apparently doing it doesn't make it right! Obviously not showing Behaviour for Learning there. And how many times had he already been warned for not talking before the teacher lost it and shouted?

Finally...I'll dare bet the teacher said they were behaving like idiots, not that they are idiots. (condemning the action not the child.)

lovebunny Wed 05-Dec-12 21:19:26

hmmm. the teachers might be under a lot of stress, as mentioned. schools can be very difficult places to work.

have you read the new teachers standards? a child answering back, or bouncing a ball against a wall, might be enough to make your school seem imperfect.

teachers are in a 'no win' situation. there are pupils, there are parents, there are leaders and there are ofsted inspectors. one or more of them will attack you. a killer blow is always just around the corner. no wonder they're stressed.

teach your boys how to behave properly and save the teachers having to hassle them at all.

lovebunny Wed 05-Dec-12 21:21:21

aren't "good" children allowed to get something wrong every now and again?
no! that's even worse. the worst kind of betrayal is when a good pupil starts to behave badly. it hurts ten times as much as when those who can't help it or those who are full of hatred start to kick off.

ohfunnyface Wed 05-Dec-12 21:21:40

Seriously, 'they're only children' is your defence? They're doomed.

I predict horrific teenage years.

It sound like it is everyone's fault apart from their own, and yours.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 21:23:18

They weren't sent to another room, sent to the Head of Year, sent to the Head, given detention or expelled! So allowance was made for them being "good". If they do the wrong thing they have to expect to be told off.

jamdonut Wed 05-Dec-12 21:24:00

They don't exactly sound like "good" children, the way you are describing them.

"Good " children are "always" children.(ie they are always doing the right thing, without having to be moaned at all the time)

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:24:19

Yeah right, now they're doomed! Shouldn't have posted here. Thanks for those who have given me polite and constructive advice. Shame about the dramatic ones who try to make you feel like a shitty parent

TobyLerone Wed 05-Dec-12 21:24:28

Wait 'til they're at secondary! DD (Y7)'s teacher told some kids in her class that they needed to stop pissing about and bloody well pay attention the other day grin

Your DSes could do with toughening up a bit, IMO.

"good" hmm children are allowed to get things wrong, they are also allowed to be told off for it.

ghoulelocks Wed 05-Dec-12 21:28:06

Constructive advice?

Ok:
It's not about you, it's about them. Put up your hang ups about how you feel as a parent and decide the best way to support them. Just calmly talk through why these things happen and help them identify positive ways to get attention. They are children and need these things spelt out clearly to them and consistency from adults in their lives for security.

Viewofthehills Wed 05-Dec-12 21:28:14

Kids Yr 6 and going up to high school next year should know how to behave by now. If they mess about they lose a lot of time cumulatively for the kids who want to learn while the teachers deal with them.

Tell them they are big now and it isn't cute to be silly anymore, it's just tiresome.

On the 'idiot' point. While I don't think it is the best term to use, there is a difference between using it to children who are being silly, compared with children who find the work difficult. In which way is it being used?

ohfunnyface Wed 05-Dec-12 21:30:51

I just love the way the teacher has crocodile tears but your sons are devastated.

You will influence and shape your sons' perception of school- just ask yourself what you want that to be, before you start indulging their every complaint.

lovebunny Wed 05-Dec-12 21:31:02

and a third message from me (you've obviously touched a nerve!)

i was talking to a boy today, 14, sent out of class for 'low-level disruption'. i gently nagged him about aspects of his behaviour and of course he had to admit i was right - he knew what he was doing was wrong. so then i asked what he wanted to do as a career. electrical engineer. i have no idea what they do, so i guessed.
'oh,' i said, 'if you were working and someone put their hand between you and the circuit so you couldn't see to do your job, would that annoy you?' 'yes!' he replied.
'and if you were on a ladder trying to do something technical and someone tugged at your clothes, would that bother you?' 'yes! i wouldn't be able to do my job!' 'but that's what you're doing to sir. he's doing his job and you are stopping him.'
sheepish look from boy, 14.
low level disruption stops teachers doing their job. they can't teach and the other children, who want to learn, can't learn as effectively as they would if everyone was co-operating.
sort out your children. the other children are going home and telling their parents who it is who disrupts lessons. that will impact in high school, when parents become concerned about examination success and write in to school to have your sons removed from particular classes.

wadadlis Wed 05-Dec-12 21:34:28

OMG tell your kids to man up or they are going to be crucified at secondary school.
you should be supporting the school.

ppeatfruit Wed 05-Dec-12 21:37:05

Annaliza you can't win on here! All DCs should be automatons "learning is the key" they learn that they're considered to be less than human; thats what they learn and it doesn't make them into 'good teenagers' Who wants 'good teenagers' who can't think for themselves anyway? it makes them into rebellious, unhappy teenagers.

My teenagers were not horrific and I respected their right to their own feelings.

Feenie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:37:35

Neurotic Y5/Y6 teachers, my arse.

<snort>

You should be telling your sons to behave better, their behaviour sounds appaling. Imagine 30 of them all doing those low level things all day? It's no wonder the teachers are shouting.

Flicking a pencil is not something a 'good' child does. It is wrong and your DS would have known it.

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 21:39:02

Who has posted "dramatic" replies that have upset you? I'm beginning to see why you can't appreciate the wider implications of your sons' poor behaviour.

ravenAK Wed 05-Dec-12 21:41:12

I have a lad in my year 8 tutor group who still talks when I'm talking, flicks pencils or paper, prats about on the way to assembly, & so on.

The other kids find him enormously tiresome, & I struggle to find him a partner for paired work in tutor time.

Honestly, I know it's all low-level stuff, but when everyone else grew out of it long ago, it's awfully tedious & will make them increasingly unpopular with their teachers AND their peers.

Euphemia Wed 05-Dec-12 21:41:13

There are no such things as "good" children and, by implication "bad" children. There are good and poor behaviour choices. Your DSs have made several of the latter.

The teachers don't sound like they're being "mean": it sounds to me like they are being firm but fair - misbehaviour should be treated the same no matter whether the child usually makes good behaviour choices or poor ones. Would it be fair to let your DS off with flicking a pencil as he's normally "good", and then punish the "bad" boy for doing the same?

Children's behaviour often changes in the last two years of primary: they can become too big for their boots and consider primary school and all its rules as beneath them. The teachers must be strict; there's no other way.

YABU

Agree completely with lovebunny and would have written what she did if she hadn't got there first.

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 21:41:41

All DCs should be automatons "learning is the key" they learn that they're considered to be less than human; thats what they learn and it doesn't make them into 'good teenagers' Who wants 'good teenagers' who can't think for themselves anyway? it makes them into rebellious, unhappy teenagers

None of the replies saying that these boys should be better behaved and the OP should support the school have suggested that pupils should be automatons.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 21:42:07

I work in a class, ppeatfruit, and of course the children respond very well to being considered human. I work very hard to praise them, nurture them, come up with work to inspire, listen to what they think. I also tell them off if they do the wrong thing if it disrupts others. Demanding decent behaviour is not asking for automatons.

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:46:19

ppeatfruit thank you for your humane message. I know where you're coming from. When DS1 said that he replied to the teacher that he wasn't the only one chatting I thought that perhaps he shouldn't have replied but also i was a bit proud that he wasn't afraid to say politely what he thought. I'm all in favour of telling children off if they're disruptive but within reason bearing in mind that just because they're children they shouldn't be forced into submission by adults in charge.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 21:47:29

Forced into submission!?!!

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 05-Dec-12 21:49:43

ppeatfruit
"My teenagers were not horrific and I respected their right to their own feelings."

Did you also respect the other children's right to learn?
Or did you complain when your children's learning was disrupted by the actions of others?

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 21:50:30

So reprimanding dangerous behaviour like flicking pencils in class is "forcing into submission"? hmm

Give me strength.

Hulababy Wed 05-Dec-12 21:52:35

A classroom is a very different scenario to when you are dealing with just 2 or 3 children at home. What is okay for 2 children to do at home just wouldn't work in a classroom of 30 children. It would be mayhem!

Feenie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:52:47

Why would the teacher discuss others' behaviour with your ds? Surely she would only be discussing HIS behaviour with him?

'Forced into submission'???????

But everyone else is being dramatic, yes?

Absolutely ridiculous.

Christ, I would home ed immediately - god knows how you've made it this far, quite frankly.

AnnaLiza Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:00

ilovesooty I find your passive aggressive comments particularly infuriating and patronising. Give me strength? Wtf
I'm hiding this thread now!

JudgeJodie Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:03

The teacher cried when you confronted her about the ball incident!?!? What did you say to her to get to the point of her crying (crocodile or not)?

StuntGirl Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:30

"Forced into submission"? I can see where your sons get their dramatic tendencies from OP grin

Annunziata Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:37

Forced into submission? Give me strength, what would you say if your DC had been whacked by one of those bouncy balls?

Floggingmolly Wed 05-Dec-12 21:53:38

Well the forced submission certainly hasn't worked on your kids, op.
You must be so proud hmm

ghoulelocks Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:05

Why send them to school at all? They'd be much freer to express themselves elsewhere. It's quite legal to home educate and they could enjoy much more ball-bouncing, pencil-flicking and pointing out the irrelevant without anyone inconsiderately trying to instil knowledge or skills into them. There are clubs etc to cover the social interaction side, though you may want to avoid the ones with authority figures such as referees or coaches potentially forcing them into submission, though I'll admit once they out grow messy play activities at the Children's Centre these may be harder to find...

lovebunny Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:17

Agree completely with lovebunny and would have written what she did if she hadn't got there first.

frame it! frame it! grin wink

BoneyBackJefferson Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:22

AnnaLiza
"ppeatfruit thank you for your humane message."

No, she just agreed with you.

"but also i was a bit proud that he wasn't afraid to say politely what he thought."

You know that he was polite? where you there?

"forced into submission"

So your DC aren't the only drama queens in the family.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:23

Look, they are welcome to feel what they want! There should be many opportunities in a decent school to express those feelings too. They are not welcome to interrupt, disrupt or potentially hurt others.

FWIW, I am strict with bad behaviour because it is just not fair on the other children. Most kids recognise a "fair cop, guv" situation when they see one (especially if their parents help them to do so).

Cathycomehome Wed 05-Dec-12 21:56:33

Your child in year six was bouncing a ball in a line for assembly, and you're SURPRISED he got told off and it was confiscated? And he was "devastated"? Give me strength, and I actually don't believe his teacher cried. Giggled maybe if you came to complain about something so ludicrous.

grin forced into submission (or not answering a teacher back when in the wrong, as I prefer to call it)

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 21:57:33

Why are my comments "passive aggressive"? I've told you exactly what I think - a view shared by nearly every other poster.

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 22:01:49

But of course you're hiding this thread flouncing now.

FelicityWasSanta Wed 05-Dec-12 22:05:29

Telling the teacher that other people were talking as well was not polite.

I sternly had a go at a child about that this week.

Me: <gives the look> Stop behaving like that and be quiet please.

Child: It wasn't just me.

Me: No, but it was you as well as other people.

Child: yes... But...

Me: Other people misbehaving does not give you the right to do it too. The fact is I didn't see them, I saw you, and what you were doing was wrong. Therefore, other people's behaviour is irrelevant and doesn't justify yours.

Child: yes miss.

Me: don't do it again.

Child: sorry miss.

Honestly OP get a grip. Does that sort of ridiculous excuse work in court- it's ok your honour, because I wasn't the only person in the shop shoplifting. hmm

takataka Wed 05-Dec-12 22:05:44

your dss are not being 'forced into submission' by neurotic teachers though...they are being told off for bouncing balls, flicking pencils and talking during lessons; all of which disrupt other childrens learning

Pozzled Wed 05-Dec-12 22:07:21

He politely pointed out that other people were talking, did he? Oh right. So no apology, no recognition of the fact that he was in the wrong?

OP, I agree that the teacher shouldn't be shouting, I don't think it's the best way of addressing bad behaviour and I certainly don't think it promotes a positive atmosphere. However, if the teacher is dealing with constant low-level disruption and lack of respect then it is not a minor issue. It is a major issue for your own children and for the whole class. And the sooner you and the teachers can both show that it is unacceptable, the better.

Feenie Wed 05-Dec-12 22:08:22

I was wondering how you manage to get a special prize, ilovesooty grin

SuffolkNWhat Wed 05-Dec-12 22:11:00

My well it seems to be anyway refrain is "take responsibility for your own behaviour"

Trying to deflect by mentioning others does not show the emotional maturity that admitting you were in the wrong does.

Oh and I would have done the same as your DC teachers btw. The pencil incident is dangerous not just disruptive.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 22:11:15

Yeah - I want one! grin

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 22:11:53

Special prize that is...

MadamFolly Wed 05-Dec-12 22:11:55

If a child tells me others were talking when I tell them off I say "I know that, I saw you talking and I am telling you to stop, everyone else had better stop as well or you will all be in more trouble than you already are"

It is irrelevant that the others were talking. Would you defend your son shoplifting because others get away with it?

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 22:11:58

Feenie grin

Lifeissweet Wed 05-Dec-12 22:12:19

I, along with nearly every year 5 and 6 teacher I have ever met, have a very similar start to the school year. It involves working together to draw up and agree to a set of class rules which will make our year together more harmonious and successful. Failure to follow these agreed rules has consequences.

It is then absolutely vital that these rules (and the ready existing whole school rules) are adhered to by everyone because not doing so makes teaching and learning very difficult.

In short, behavioural expectations in schools are extremely clear and a teacher is perfectly justified in disapproving and taking action about any misdemeanours.

A teacher who doesn't consistently follow through is doing no one any favours. This is not making children into automatons, it is making them responsible for their own behaviour within a set of agreed rules. If you like, it's a bit like adhering to laws in a civilised society. This is what we are preparing them to do.

For what it's worth, shouting is never good, but then maybe the teacher's buttons had been pushed and pushed by bad behaviour. She is only human after all.

I agree that the OPs children need to accept that their behaviour is their own responsibility.

apostrophethesnowman Wed 05-Dec-12 22:12:24

OP: AIBU
Vast majority of respondents: Yes you are. Very much so.
OP: I'm not listening to you any more. I'm not playing I'm hiding the thread.

This just about sums up the OP's mentality.

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 22:14:01

The sad thing is that the OP's attitude will fuel the children's attitude and that will then impact on 29 other children.

clam Wed 05-Dec-12 22:20:08

A child attempting to justify his own poor behaviour by saying that "other people were doing it too" would annoy me far more than the original crime, whatever it was.
But the kids in my school know me well enough not to be so foolish as to even go there!

whathasthecatdonenow Wed 05-Dec-12 22:30:17

I just hope these children aren't coming my way when they move up to secondary school. I agree totally with what Raven said - I have a year 8 tutor group too, and the tiresome 'I'll do what I want, look at me, aren't I fascinating, everyone else is less important than me' boy was funny to the others for about 10 minutes, and now children ask to be moved away from him.

NolittleBuddahsorTigerMomshere Wed 05-Dec-12 22:32:49

There's no need to be so nasty to OP guys

ImaginateMum Wed 05-Dec-12 22:37:19

I don't think we are being nasty. I do think our opinions are being dismissed by OP and our concerns for good behaviour in the classroom ignored.

steppemum Wed 05-Dec-12 22:41:23

OP, you came onto AIBU and asked a question, you got lots of answers from people, and nearly everybody politey said YABU. On eor two expressed it more firmly.
Despite that you insist that YANBU. So the responses got more pointed and you still have 99% of people saying they think YABU

Your response to that is to say that EVERYBODY ELSE is still wrong, and you are right.

If you ask for an opinion, then you need to listen to the responses. If you disagree with most of them, maybe you need to rethink your position. You asked AIBU? you got and answer.

clam Wed 05-Dec-12 22:44:34

And actually, those parents who defend their kids with "it wasn't just them," "they're only little" and accuse teachers for being "overly mean for minor misdemeanors" are, probably unwittingly, contributing massively to the amount of low-level disruption that is impacting hugely on progress and learning in schools these days.

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 22:47:54

And considering that lessons are deemed inadequate now if one pupil is off task, it can hardly be expected that teachers will be tolerant of low level disruption.

3b1g Wed 05-Dec-12 22:57:05

I haven't read the whole thread, but in my DCs' school the expectations of standards of behaviour become higher as they go up the school, so 'little' things that they might have got away with in Y3 would not be acceptable by Y6. All part of equipping and preparing them for secondary school. Having said that, the pencil flicking and ball bouncing in the corridor would not be allowed from a child in any year group.

Feenie Wed 05-Dec-12 23:01:50

And I suppose calling long suffering Y5 and 6 teachers neurotic isn't at all unpleasant - I expect others were doing it too?

And,i

DingDongKethryverilyonHigh Wed 05-Dec-12 23:05:06

my school got really strict with behaviour in year 5/6 and said they had to because we were going onto secondary school were they wouldn't tolerate misbehaviour!

NolittleBuddahsorTigerMomshere Wed 05-Dec-12 23:19:17

freenie, I don't think op has said it to the teacher's faces, just on here. So not really any need for your indignation on their behalf is there?

All the comments from others, re op being childish, you all so quite childish too tbh, getting pissy because Op disagrees with you.

ilovesooty Wed 05-Dec-12 23:46:47

The OP was the one who asked for opinions in the first place, then criticised people for saying she was BU.

NolittleBuddahsorTigerMomshere Wed 05-Dec-12 23:54:51

There is no need for tone from either side, and I still think people sound v,immature

TheNebulousBoojum Thu 06-Dec-12 01:35:06

I am a Y6 teacher.
I have enjoyed the majority of the answers on this thread, I have several precious parents.
Thank you people. grin

sashh Thu 06-Dec-12 02:28:17

I thought that perhaps he shouldn't have replied but also i was a bit proud that he wasn't afraid to say politely what he thought.

Sorry OP but, "Everyone else was talking" is never polite.

ThePoorMansBeckySharp Thu 06-Dec-12 02:36:14

The teacher is neurotic for daring to discipline your kids for bad behaviour? Christ, now I've heard everything. Teenage years will be a hoot at your place. Good luck with that.

MrRected Thu 06-Dec-12 04:14:04

The thing is OP (if you are still around)...

What happens at school, should really stay at school. The school have expected standards of behaviour of your children which are consistent across the cohort. Why should your child be able to behave in one manner when the rest are expected to abide by the rules. Imagine if they were all bouncing balls, they were all flicking pencils, or if all if them spoke back to the teacher. It would be chaos.

Your children are old enough to make reasonable decisions and accept the consequences if their decisions are poor. The bottom line is, is that if they hadn't misbehaved, they would not have been reprimanded.

The limits you choose to impose at home with respect to standards of behaviour, courtesy and self moderation is entirely up to you. I think you sound disrespectful of the school's rules and this is rubbing off on your children.

Endofmyfeather Thu 06-Dec-12 04:57:28

What to do? Discipline your children for messing about.

Where has the concept of 'personal responsibility' gone?

YABU

Euphemia Thu 06-Dec-12 07:06:09

I did a day a week on supply in a school where teachers got little or no back-up from parents. Small class of 16 P2s, six of them with poor behaviour. I never managed to teach them a thing. They disrupted the learning for every child in that class. The parents' response was to shrug and say "They're just wee."

(Oh and in the face of this apathy, the SMT appeared to have given up. Their solution to dealing with disruptive pupils, their way of supporting my attempts to impose the school behaviour code? Take the child to sit outside the DHT's office for an hour or two. confused Boy, was I glad to escape that place!)

heggiehog Thu 06-Dec-12 07:17:06

What a hilarious thread.

Children being rude and disruptive and it's okay because they're "just children."

I would have told them off for such behaviour too. They should know better and you shouldn't be encouraging their bad behaviour.

Parents like this need to spend a day in school to understand why it's not okay for children to be rude and disruptive.

heggiehog Thu 06-Dec-12 07:18:16

"What happens at school, should really stay at school. The school have expected standards of behaviour of your children which are consistent across the cohort. Why should your child be able to behave in one manner when the rest are expected to abide by the rules. Imagine if they were all bouncing balls, they were all flicking pencils, or if all if them spoke back to the teacher. It would be chaos."

THIS.

exoticfruits Thu 06-Dec-12 07:26:47

It would be hilarious if there were not really parents like OP! All you need to do OP is tell them to behave in an appropriate manner and they won't be in trouble! It is all the low level, disruption, things that are extremely irritating. The 'neurotic teachers' may well be asking how to deal with neurotic parents!

ohfunnyface Thu 06-Dec-12 07:31:02

I honestly think I might run a teacher training session on that: how to deal with difficult parents.

How to train your dragon??

ThursdayWillBeTheDay Thu 06-Dec-12 07:32:08

One could almost sympathise with the OP's story if it was just one of her precious babies being treated so appallingly by this vicious neurotic harridan.....but, to paraphrase Oscar Wilde, whilst one victim in the family may be seen as just that.....to have both children in the same situation might be seen as careless......wink

Euphemia Thu 06-Dec-12 07:35:13

I have a pupil with a bad temper. She hits other pupils for just saying things to her. (This week, someone said to her that she has black gloves, and she punched them because hers are pink.)

Last time I put a note in her homework diary explaining why her green behaviour dot had been changed to orange that day, her mum phoned the school to rant at the HT and tell her she would be changing the dot back to green, as her DD told her she hadn't done the thing I had accused her of. hmm (Another pupil saw her hit someone, I asked did she hit him, she said yes, then obviously went home and told a big fat lie to her mum.)

takataka Thu 06-Dec-12 07:43:00

It's not even as if the discipline was that harsh. They were talked to 'sternly'? confused

Valdeeves Thu 06-Dec-12 07:50:39

You've got to remember they are being prepped for secondary school. All those things would have got them a detention. All minor (apart from pencil flicking, you'd be surprised at how much that can hurt.) but minor disruption needs nipping in the bud.

Groovee Thu 06-Dec-12 07:51:04

I'd expect a child to be told off and have something confiscated if they are unable at age 10 to stand in a line without bouncing something.

Flicking pencils is dangerous. It could hurt someone.

There is nothing worse than a parent who gets annoyed when their baby gets discplined by someone outwith the family home.

You call the teachers Neurotic... maybe look closer to home instead of blaming everyone else.

exoticfruits Thu 06-Dec-12 07:53:10

I expect OP still thinks 'my DC, my rules' - which is only true in her own home- elsewhere it certainly isn't!

SilverBaubles33 Thu 06-Dec-12 08:28:54

Neurotic? The TEACHERS ????

I have been so heartened by this thread's responses.

Teachers do a bloody amazing job, they shape and influence a whole new generation and thus make an invaluable contribution to both

aamia Thu 06-Dec-12 08:31:27

I have a blanket rule when I teach a class that is explained clearly and regularly. Throwing ANYTHING, even by accident (it is only possible to throw things by accident if you are not holding them securely), loses the child most of their lunch hour. It is extremely dangerous, pencils can end up in eyes so easily. As a result of this rule, nothing gets thrown.

The ball would have been removed until the end of the day for a first offence, end of the week for a second.

Basically your children need to learn to behave.

SilverBaubles33 Thu 06-Dec-12 08:33:55

Neurotic? The TEACHERS ????

I have been so heartened by this thread's responses.

Teachers do a bloody amazing job, they shape and influence a whole new generation and thus make an invaluable contribution to both our communities and wider society. Not to mention the actual imparting of knowledge among all that extra admin.

It is thanks their talent and dedication that we have fewer over-entitled spoilt buggers chucking their weight around and expecting the special indulgent treatment their own parents (am sometimes guilty myself!) give them.

To all teachers, thanks

exoticfruits Thu 06-Dec-12 08:34:58

I am heartened by the responses- nice to know that people don't expect teachers to put up with poor behaviour .

whois Thu 06-Dec-12 08:36:47

Aw, OP did you little ickle precious snowflake cupcake get told off at school? His teachers don't think he is such a super duper little trooper as you?

He's 10 ffs. Old enough to know that talking & backchat are wrong. Bouncing a ball In line isn't right etc etc.

Grip

There, found it for you :-)

noblegiraffe Thu 06-Dec-12 08:44:03

I've had kids cry at a mild telling off in secondary school and wondered how on earth they managed to grow up so wet. Apparently it's because it works with mummy.

Feenie Thu 06-Dec-12 17:53:24

freenie, I don't think op has said it to the teacher's faces, just on here. So not really any need for your indignation on their behalf is there?

NolittleBuddha - if you read the thread carefully, you may find that 1)I am far from the only indignant poster, 2)you might actually get my name right and not, therefore, look quite as foolish and 3)that you are also stamping your feet with the best of us - only with far less reason.

Hth.

Seabird72 Thu 06-Dec-12 17:58:58

depends if it's the same teachers all the time - at my dd school there is a teacher who spends most of the lesson shouting about things - it seems to me that she can't cope well at all - mostly it's at boys who then know that they're getting to her so they mess about even more but instead of splitting them up or sending them out of the classroom she just continues to shout and not teach - even the other teachers hear her and laugh about it to their pupils (I only know this because DD's friend is in other class and said that her teacher considers it their "entertainment" for the day! However the things that you mentioned perhaps should be knocked on the head now.

clam Thu 06-Dec-12 18:24:36

"However the things that you mentioned perhaps should be knocked on the head now."
I presume you mean the boys' behaviour, as opposed to the teachers'

Floggingmolly Thu 06-Dec-12 18:32:30

Seabird, I'd find that hard to believe actually, but how bloody depressing if it were the case. hmm

cumbrialass Thu 06-Dec-12 18:38:18

As a clearly "neurotic" year5/6 teacher, the first thing I say to my new class every September is that it is my job to prepare them academically and socially for secondary school. That means they are responsible for their own actions and behaviour. Ball bouncing and pencil throwing are clearly not what is expected/tolerated in any class ( and nor should they be!) and will be dealt with severely. Answering back is disruptive and disrespectful, it is not "daring". Secondary teachers won't put up with such rubbish, neither will I

clam Thu 06-Dec-12 18:48:28

"Secondary teachers won't put up with such rubbish"

Hmm, well according to my DCs, there are a fair few who do. It pisses me off, this assumption that poor behaviour can be tolerated at primary level but goodness me, they need to get their act together for secondary. Er... NO? Good behaviour should be a given regardless of age. Some children, however, are handicapped by their parents' determination to excuse their every bit of "high spirits," and have no idea or care that they're ruining the education of everyone around them.

FestiveDigestive Thu 06-Dec-12 19:16:27

Why do you believe your children?! My DS is in year 3 and if if I believed his version if events, then I would believe that he has been told off several times recently for things that are not his fault or just disciplined for no reason at all! Perhaps I should go into school and complain about how 'unfair' this all is? grin

When he tells me that he got a detention because "Bob was distracting me" - I interpret that to mean that he was talking to Bob during a lesson & I remind him that he can only be distracted if he wants to be. Or that he has been moved to sit beside the teacher at carpet time - but there is no reason for this... It's then pretty obvious to me that he has been chatting/not listening during registration. It's usually quite easy to read between the lines!

I refuse to sympathise with him. I remind him that his teacher is being paid to do a job that she trained hard for and that it is extremely rude of him to ignore her while she is teaching.

If he was bouncing a ball or flicking pencils - I would want the teacher to tell him off. He needs to behave at school and with a class of 25 to teach, the teacher needs the class to concentrate and to behave respectfully.

cumbrialass Thu 06-Dec-12 19:16:39

Don't get me wrong, I too think good behaviour should be commonplace whatever the age. The response to poor behaviour can be rather different at secondary however. Primary teachers might "badly tell off" ( to quote the OP) a misbehaving child, a secondary teacher might simply give them detention! ( although I would agree, there are some soft touches at secondary toogrin

clam Thu 06-Dec-12 19:26:20

festivedigestive If a child is sent to me for bad behaviour, I straightaway ask why they are here. The moment they start with "Well, Freddie was...." I'm afraid I stop them in their tracks and ask them to begin their sentence with "I..."

Pozzled Thu 06-Dec-12 19:29:22

Clam I'm with you on that. Usually a long, rambling tale involving many names and details is cut down to a few words: 'I was talking instead of listening.'

Endofmyfeather Fri 07-Dec-12 00:58:27

exoticfruits "I am heartened by the responses- nice to know that people don't expect teachers to put up with poor behaviour ."

IME that's true for most parents...until it's their child who's getting told off for something that 'couldn't possibly be their fault' wink

misterwife Fri 07-Dec-12 01:55:58

Taking this point by point...

"DS1 (yr 6) got badly told off for bouncing a ball while he was walking to the assembly line and the ball was confiscated for two days."

Possibly not unreasonable to object to this. He should have been told to put the ball away first, and then only upon failure to do this should the ball have been confiscated and the reprimand given. There is no point playing hell with kids over rule breaches if they aren't aware that they are breaching any rules.

"DS2 (yr 5) got into serious trouble for flicking a pencil during a lesson."

This is patently silly behaviour in a classroom and you can expect any kid to get into trouble for this.

"DS1 got shouted at for talking during a lesson and for daring to say that other people were talking too."

This is a situation in which the teacher has lost control of the classroom and has resorted to picking on random talkers in a doomed-to-fail attempt to re-establish order. Having said that, "daring to say that other people were talking too" counts as backchat and will be punished by any teacher anywhere, regardless of whether or not the comment is true.

"Also they tell me that one of these two teachers refers to some other children as "idiots" and the other one is shouting half of the time and almost always at boys only."

Referring to any pupils as idiots is unacceptable, yes. And raising one's voice on a regular basis is pretty much the opposite of good teaching practice.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 07-Dec-12 07:04:25

'Possibly not unreasonable to object to this. He should have been told to put the ball away first, and then only upon failure to do this should the ball have been confiscated and the reprimand given. There is no point playing hell with kids over rule breaches if they aren't aware that they are breaching any rules.'

I think you might find that is a standard expectation and rule in most school playgrounds, the bell or whistle goes and you walk to the line. No bouncing or whatnot. Balls are put in the correct outside location or held whilst going inside.
Or are you suggesting that there is no rule in existence that the child is aware of?
Do you have any idea what the playground lineup would look like if that was the case? grin
Massive timewasting exercise to constantly repeat a rule that all the children know, because one cheeky child chooses to express their individuality and dimness in a single act.

TheNebulousBoojum Fri 07-Dec-12 07:06:29

Have you considered home educating them, to avoid the trauma of secondary?

AViewfromtheFridge Fri 07-Dec-12 07:19:41

ThursdayWillBeTheDay grin

Petershadow Fri 07-Dec-12 07:36:56

Classic
AIBU- Yes
No, I'm not
Yes you are
NO I AM NOT-flounce

ArkadyRose Fri 07-Dec-12 07:48:32

Seems to me it's not the teachers being neurotic here.

cory Fri 07-Dec-12 08:09:27

"I'm all in favour of telling children off if they're disruptive but within reason bearing in mind that just because they're children they shouldn't be forced into submission by adults in charge. "

My nephew spent four years in a class with three children who were not forced into submission. As a result, he had a miserable time and learnt nothing; there was just too much disruption going on for the teacher to be able to do her job. I think my nephew would probably like the OP to explain why his desire to be able to learn was less important than the other children's desire not to be forced into submission.

If one child is being disruptive, then every child in the class who doesn't like disruption is de facto being forced into submission.

SantasNaughtySack Fri 07-Dec-12 09:07:28

YABbloodyridiculous.

ppeatfruit Fri 07-Dec-12 10:30:32

A bit of humanity from some of the posters and teachers at school is not a lot to ask. I taught in a school where the Head was literally Miss Trunchbull shock. T.A. s were screaming at and man handling sick 5 yr olds (to no avail incidentally). All the DCs learned there was to hate school.

noblegiraffe Fri 07-Dec-12 10:43:08

Crikey, it's a bit of a leap from confiscating a ball which is being messed around with and telling a kid to stop talking to being an inhumane tyrant!

Incidentally, the 'but it wasn't just me' whine is the bane of most teachers' lives. Were you talking? Yes? Then simply shut up and maybe I can then get on with telling the other kids to shut up too. Some kids are completely deaf to any instruction which doesn't explicitly include their name, so if you tell the class to be quiet they don't listen, but also if you tell other kids off they don't listen. 'Miss is always picking on me' tends to mean 'I'm not listening when Miss tells anyone else off so I'm going to claim that she never tells anyone else off'.

Grr.

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 10:45:24

I suspect that your children are starting to get teenage hormones. (Or at least the year 6 child.)

Older children are often less meek and compliant than younger children. I imagine that your children were easier to manage at school than in the past.

You have my sympathy. My year 6 son is convinced that homework belongs in the recycling bin. We have a young teacher who is desperate to win every blardy battle. She has never taught year 6 before and has no children of her own.

Ds wrote three words in an English lesson. The teacher kept him in to do the work over lunchtime and ds still did no work. She then made him miss his favourite lesson of the week "science" to do the work. I feel this was a mistake as my son now hates her even more and will do even less work for her.

He believes that refusing to do home work for her, being late for school and doing no work in class is way of hurting her. He is far to immature to see that he is damaging himself. His stroppiness has got him moved down a maths table.

I will have a meeting with his teacher in the new year.

noblegiraffe Fri 07-Dec-12 11:27:27

Reallytired, it seems to me that it is how you support the school that will be key in dealing with your DS. Refusing to work and refusing to follow instructions is a pretty big deal, as is choosing not to work for a teacher you don't like. If your DS isn't given this message loud and clear from all corners now, he will be a nightmare at secondary.

Floggingmolly Fri 07-Dec-12 11:43:08

If the teacher an't get through to him, then it's up to you to pick up the slack, Reallytired. hmm. I'm assuming you didn't share your opinion that being sanctioned for refusing to work was a "mistake" with your son.

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 13:18:20

Floggingmolly, noblegiraffe I don't disagree with my son being punished. I think it was right that he was kept in over lunch to do his work. I feel that making him miss the lesson after lunch was a step too far. I feel that if a child is behaving that badly then the teacher should tell the parents or senior management. My son's teacher has done neither. I have asked for the appointment with the teacher, rather than the other way round.

Science is a national curriculum subject and the work done in a science lesson is important as well. It would have made more sense to have punished my son by making him do his English work during Golden time.

hoobledoo Fri 07-Dec-12 14:48:18

I'm sorry I thought we were talking about a primary school not the fucking army!!! YANBU the teachers need to get a grip, primary school is supposed to be a safe and fun place to learn. Unless the teachers are Hitler's descendants and then I can understand their punishments!!!

teaguzzler Fri 07-Dec-12 14:59:39

It amuses me when people come on here asking for advice then run off in a strop when others disagree with them!

teaguzzler Fri 07-Dec-12 15:01:19

I'm guessing by your post hoobledoo you are not a primary teacher?

hoobledoo Fri 07-Dec-12 15:05:25

very well guessed teaguzzler!!

ppeatfruit Fri 07-Dec-12 15:19:38

I agree that that particular school was an extreme example. I am trying to say that there ARE neurotic teachers and also teachers and T.A.s who dislike some if not all DCs. The op's who were waxing lyrical about the teachers moulding our Dcs and correcting bad parenting are sadly living in cloud cuckoo land if my considerable experience is anything to go by. They are better though,some are a lot better, than they were when I was at school (at least they can't hit DCs now).

If the lessons were more interestingly put across there wouldn't be such a discipline problem; the few really uncontrollable ones are generally SN or undiagnosed SN and IMO need to be taught separately. You can't force a DC who doesn't understand much into submission can you ?

Floggingmolly Fri 07-Dec-12 15:29:50

If the lessons were more interestingly put across there wouldn't be such a discipline problem
That has to be the singular most ridiculous sentence in the entire thread, and it's got some stiff competition.

voddiekeepsmesane Fri 07-Dec-12 16:28:30

I have just finished reading this thread and even though the OP has flounced off I am determined to say my piece smile

Stop being so melodramatic, no wonder your sons seem to whine and moan about school to you because they have obviously already figured out that you will NOT back up the school. Shame on you.

God help your oldest (and you) next year, year 7 can be such a shock to the families like yours that beleive that the world revovles around them.

Your 2 boys were causing low level disruption and if all low level disruption is allowed then no teaching and therefore learning woulf be done.

But ofcourse the other 30 odd children not to mention the respect of the teachers/school dosen't matter as long as your darlings are not told off hmm

Endofmyfeather Fri 07-Dec-12 16:35:08

If the lessons were more interestingly put across there wouldn't be such a discipline problem

Wow... do you work for Ofsted?!

ppeatfruit Fri 07-Dec-12 16:53:01

OOh that hit a nerve didn't it shock? Iam a primary teacher and I have met many boring teachers. Flogging why is it ridiculous to state the truth?

ReallyTired Fri 07-Dec-12 16:53:19

If the lessons were more interestingly put across there wouldn't be such a discipline problem

ds's lessons are fab. Once a year they have an open afternoon where the parents can see the teachers teaching. Boredom is not an issue.

My son's has an excessive amount of hormones at the moment like most year 6s. Many primary school teachers struggle with year 6 because they require a different approach to the more doecile year 3s. Year 6 children are under a lot of stress from SATs, schools transfers as well as their bodies starting to change. Unfortunately this sometimes comes out in their behaviour.

Many year 6 or even year 5 children are similar to secondary school children. They need a very strong discipline structure or its just chaos. Having thirty children in a room is a completely different environment to being at home.
Children actually like strict teachers as they know where they are.

BoneyBackJefferson Fri 07-Dec-12 17:07:42

ppeatfruit
"If the lessons were more interestingly put across there wouldn't be such a discipline problem"

Do you teach 1 child or 30?
Should you make the lesson interesting for just 1 child or the majority?
What happens when the child refuses to enguage?
What happens when it is an interesting lesson and the child still (god forbid, cos it never happens) still misbehaves?

exoticfruits Fri 07-Dec-12 17:22:22

If the lessons were more interestingly put across there wouldn't be such a discipline problem
That has to be the singular most ridiculous sentence in the entire thread, and it's got some stiff competition.

I second that-and I have read some silly things!
Does the person who wrote it expect all DCs to be the same? Has she not the intelligence to know that what is very interesting to one child is going to be boring to another?

noblegiraffe Fri 07-Dec-12 17:45:14

It's astonishing that a teacher of apparently considerable experience could spout such nonsense.

Uncontrollable kids sometimes behave poorly because they can't access the work but many are bright enough and choose to disrupt. Meeting their parents or hearing about their home life can be quite illuminating.

AViewfromtheFridge Fri 07-Dec-12 17:53:41

ReallyTired, what does the fact that the teacher has no children of her own have to do with anything? Are you saying only parents should be teachers?

Jingleflobba Fri 07-Dec-12 18:04:10

I know the OP has flounced but anyway...
Last week my Ds (yr 7) came home and announced that one of his teachers hated him because she gave him lines for banging his knee on the table. On further questioning of the dramallama it became clear that actually he got lines because he had been pissing around in his lesson, finally tipped his chair backwards a bit and banged his knee. He got lines for acting like a clown, not for hurting himself... Children know how to play on the protective instincts of parents and try for sympathy imho. He got none in this case...
And as for flicking pencils, a lad in my year at school had a pen flicked across the table to (not at) him. It was badly judged and ended up blinding him in one eye. It's not always a harmless thing to do..

noblegiraffe Fri 07-Dec-12 18:11:55

reallytired while I agree with you about the importance of science, you will need to be careful how go approach it as your DS missing a science lesson is quite far down the list of things that need to be discussed with the teacher to sort out the issue of his appalling behaviour. If you go in and start banging on about how that one incident should have been dealt with differently, it will come across as that you do not support the school, put the teacher on the defensive and your meeting would not be as productive as it could be.

Feenie Fri 07-Dec-12 21:57:25

It's astonishing that a teacher of apparently considerable experience could spout such nonsense.

It is. Totally incredible - literally.

ppeatfruit Sat 08-Dec-12 18:56:08

IMO schools are microcosms of the society in which we live; reading so many of your posts one can understand why victims in the current abuse cases were not believed 'don't believe the D.Cs' and "don't complain because you MUST support the school"

You may not mean it but the conclusion I reach from a number of your posts is that telling the truth is not allowed, because we ALL know there are bad teachers and T.A.s but "lets just bury our heads in the sand and blame the whistle blower"

I wrote the above paragraph because DD2 was in a class whose teacher had filmed the boys at football club getting changed. A boy told his parents and was backed up by the other boys in the club. The Head refused to believe it but had her hand forced; eventually sacking the teacher and it went to court. It took a lot of time for anything to get done due to "support the school" issues. There are other true but even worse stories about another school where the teacher was just moved to another school in the same way as abusive priests were moved to different diocese.

simplesusan Sat 08-Dec-12 19:15:03

I think the op should start and discipline her children and actually set an example of how to behave. They sound awful.

Feenie Sun 09-Dec-12 10:35:10

reading so many of your posts one can understand why victims in the current abuse cases were not believed 'don't believe the D.Cs' and "don't complain because you MUST support the school"

Total and utter bullshit.

I'm sorry about the experience you suffered because of ds's teacher. But it's not at all relevant to the discussion or the responses here, I'm afraid.

Jingleflobba Sun 09-Dec-12 11:10:53

I do see your point pp but it's not the same situation. The horrific thing that happened at your DS's school wasn't the result of bad discipline on the part of the parent, it was purely down to an evil betrayal of trust on the part of the teacher involved. This is is one parent complainign about her child being disciplined for misbehaving in class when most other parents would tell their children to behave in future and take the punishment.
I hope your DS is recovering ok?

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 09-Dec-12 11:34:38

ppeatfruit

Something that has happened in most of the years that I have been teaching.

A pupil "Y" comes up to me and says pupil "X" is picking on me/swore at me etc.
I separate the pupils.
5 or 10 minutes later "Y" who said that has said that "X" is picking on me/swore at me etc. is out of their seat and winding "X" up.

If I had told "X" off on the word of "Y" I would have been wrong because "Y" is in fact bullying "X".

The truth is that some children do lie and they manipulate situations to put themselves in the best light.

ppeatfruit Sun 09-Dec-12 11:49:48

Of course I never said that DCs don't lie; also parents and teachers and Heads lie and manipulate situations and bully. BUT they are adults and should try to set a good example to the DCS.

Ignoring the reality of bad teaching is not setting a good example IMO

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 09-Dec-12 11:57:53

there are bad teachers, police, nurses etc.

This is why we have to follow the processes, and is also why their are avenues of complaint outside of these systems.

Feenie Sun 09-Dec-12 12:03:51

The behaviour of these particular dcs has been fully explained, and is clearly nothing to do with bad teaching.

Arisbottle Sun 09-Dec-12 12:06:53

The greatest challenge that teachers face in the classroom is low level disruption . It holds up learning, drives teachers out if their job and often partly accounts for the difference between state and independent education.

You are excusing and encouraging such behaviour which is preventing both your children and other children from learning and eventually serves to maintain the deeply unequal society we have.

Do everyone a favour and stop allowing your children to trash the education of our children,

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 09-Dec-12 12:28:02

Feenie
"The behaviour of these particular dcs has been fully explained, and is clearly nothing to do with bad teaching."

I agree completely, unfortunately some people won't see and let their own experiences blind them.

SmallSchoolPrimaryTeacher Sun 09-Dec-12 13:19:01

Whenever I am faced with an over-protective parent, I always say, "You believe everything your child says about school, and I'll believe everything your child says about home. Or alternatively, we could siphon out the things which are really important and deal with them."

PessaryPam Sun 09-Dec-12 13:49:16

AnnaLiza At Pessary Towers our children would have received a massive bollocking from us too if they had behaved as your kids have.

They were being naughty, they got into trouble. Basically if they can't do the time they should not do the crime.

Back up the poor teachers who have to deal with increasingly brattish behaviour from kids these days.

PessaryPam Sun 09-Dec-12 13:55:45

ppeatfruit
"My teenagers were not horrific and I respected their right to their own feelings."

Well ppeat I adopted the more mature attitude with my children and they are now doing well at university and will hopefully have productive, well remunerated and happy lives.

They are not automatons either but they respect others and are kind and loving.

TheNebulousBoojum Sun 09-Dec-12 14:16:12

'You believe everything your child says about school, and I'll believe everything your child says about home.'

grin And then I'll write a book about it when I retire.

ppeatfruit Sun 09-Dec-12 14:30:18

That's interesting PessaryPam Why is it immature to respect your DCs' feelings? I wonder if your parents respected yours and how did you feel if they didn't?

Floggingmolly Sun 09-Dec-12 14:40:22

You're being just a little disengenuous now, ppeatfruit.
There's a big difference between respecting their feelings and insisting on their right to express themselves anywhere, anytime, irregardless of how detrimental it may be to those around them.
You're a teacher, you say... Please God my kids never have one like you.

DeWe Sun 09-Dec-12 14:52:09

I'm really encouraged to see that someone believes that the teachers should make all lessons interesting to stop any behaviour problems.
I shall go in tomorrow and tell ds's teacher to stop his sticker chart. Instead I expect her to make all lessons interesting to him. If he misbehaves it's entirely her fault for not making it interesting. I hope the rest of the class is interested in WWII aircraft... hmm

ppeatfruit Sun 09-Dec-12 15:16:08

I did not say that DCs have a right to express themselves any old how (none of us do) though of course some of the EYs DCs are just not ready developmentally for the strict classroom environment. I know it's a bit better now.

I just get the impression that there are lot of parents on here who really DO think that DCs are inferior beings and that's sad.

FWIW schools used to ask for me to do supply for them so I can't have been that bad.

Feenie Sun 09-Dec-12 15:17:25

Used to? So you are no longer a primary school teacher then?

clam Sun 09-Dec-12 15:18:33

We are in danger of creating a generation of people whose expectation is that they can just sit back in their seats and drawl, "come on, entertain me, and I might deign to listen and learn if you amuse me." Ofsted will back them up.

Any future employer, however, might not! Some of them are in for a very rude shock.

ppeatfruit Sun 09-Dec-12 16:00:01

no Feenie we've moved to Fr. 50% of the time and I've retired.

Do you remember the teachers and subjects you liked and did well in?clam I bet it was because they held yr. interest. There's nothing new in that FGS.

I remember being a "good" girl but in some classes I just turned off how are you going to "MAKE" DCs listen? thought police?

PessaryPam Sun 09-Dec-12 16:05:08

ppeatfruit

That's interesting PessaryPam Why is it immature to respect your DCs' feelings? I wonder if your parents respected yours and how did you feel if they didn't?

We always respected their feelings, but as responsible adults we took decisions that were for their own good, even if it made us unpopular at the time.

I had nothing but love and respect for my parents and I miss them a lot now they are both dead. They did their best for me, even when I was being a pain as a teenager.

So does that answer your condescending psychobabble questions?

ppeatfruit Sun 09-Dec-12 16:16:35

I don't didn't care about being unpopular with our DCs but I acknowledged they felt differently from me at times. That's all we all need IMO.

My parents thought they knew best too it turned out they didn't. So I had to stay on at college and do more O's and A levels. Just being responsible doesn't mean you know every thing. Though you obviously do.

soontobeyummy Sun 09-Dec-12 16:41:19

Not read all the replies (long thread!) I have a child in year 5. If he'd come home crying he'd been told off for bouncing a ball on the way to assembly, flicking a pencil in class, or talking in class, then I'd be telling him it's his own daft fault for doing it in the first place.
Not blaming the teachers for trying to keep control a little bit. YABU.

PessaryPam Sun 09-Dec-12 18:33:18

Ha ha, hit a nerve there. Do you always project your problems onto others like this?

voddiekeepsmesane Sun 09-Dec-12 19:00:06

If life was a matter of being and saying exactly as you please then I would agree with you ppeat, but it isn't. No matter how you bring up your children they have to be able to work in the real world and sometimes (especially when young) it means that authoritative attitudes HAVE to be tolerated, life is not as black and white as you make out and we need to make sure our children hold the necessary skills for LIFE. IMO that is where a lot of parents fail, hence the "entitled" society we have today.

ppeatfruit Mon 10-Dec-12 08:12:10

Let me quote you a poem given by the LEA to all of the attendees at a conference for teachers;- The conference was entitled;

EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE

A People Place

If this is not a place where tears are understood,
Where do I go to cry?
if this is not a place where my spirits can take wing
Where do I go to fly?
If this is not a place where my questions can be asked,
Where do I go to seek?
If this is not a place where my feelings can be heard,
Where do I go to speak?
If this is not a place where you'll accept me as I am,
Where can I go to be?
If this is not a place where I can try to learn and grow,
Where can I be just me?

By William J Crocker

Have a Good christmas Everyone

PessaryPam Mon 10-Dec-12 08:27:04

Bless.

cory Mon 10-Dec-12 10:04:03

ppeatfruit Sun 09-Dec-12 16:00:01

"Do you remember the teachers and subjects you liked and did well in?clam I bet it was because they held yr. interest. There's nothing new in that FGS.

I remember being a "good" girl but in some classes I just turned off how are you going to "MAKE" DCs listen? thought police? "

So what do you do about the child who does find the lesson interesting and is anxious to learn more but can't actually hear what the teacher is saying half the time because of disruptive behaviour from another child? Are you saying the feelings of the attentive and interested child somehow matter less than of the uninterested child? How can you respect the interested child's feelings except by giving him a chance to hear and concentrate?

My nephew's class contained 20 odd children of the first kind and 3 or 4 of the second. Of course, the fact that the teacher was able to make the lesson interesting to the 20 odd wasn't much help- when the 3 or 4 were present, there was too much disruption for them to concentrate. So did those 20 odd children matter less than the 3 or 4?

I am sorry to say that ds (Yr 8) is one of those low level disruptive children and we are working hard with the school to overcome it. He is now on report so I can see exactly what lessons he plays up in. The strange thing is that there are some teachers he has always spoken highly of, he likes them, he thinks they teach well- but he doesn't work or concentrate for them either. So in his case, your theory doesn't hold.

And fwiw ds' school has great pastoral care and would be supportive of any worries of his. He has been tested for dyslexia and obviously has no difficulties in understanding. They would be happy to answer any questions of his or support him with any work he didn't understand. But he doesn't want to ask for help, because that would involve having to make the effort of listening, and he prefers being the class clown. I don't think that's fair on the other pupils.

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