To think that David Cameron is out of touch with the realities of the NHS?

(72 Posts)
Lougle Wed 05-Dec-12 12:39:25

I've been listening to Prime Minister's Questions.

David Cameron wants to introduce 'hourly roundings'. That is, that each patient under a nurse's care should have a 'nurse by the bedside, at least once an hour, checking that they have had water, that they're not uncomfortable, that they don't have bedsores....'

Let's think about this. One nurse can have up to 15 patients on a normal ward now. In 2003 as a Newly Qualified (ie. 3 weeks qualified) RN, had 12 patients in the morning, then 18 in the evening.

So, working with 15 patients. Each hour, the nurse must visit each of them. That means that the nurse has 4 minutes per patient, per hour.

What happens when patients need washes, morphine (requires two nurses to sign out, check, administer), theatre prep, admission?

impty Wed 05-Dec-12 12:50:07

I suspect the sentence could have just been- AIBU that David Cameron is out of touch.

And the answer is yes to both.

I think the NHS is one of the greatest things in this country. I am terrified that it is being slowly dismantled. For this reason we have opted in for private medical cover. Which I realise plays into the hands of the politicians.

My hope is that if we ever need to use it then that may save money for the NHS to treat someone else quicker.

VicarInaTutuDrankSantasSherry Wed 05-Dec-12 12:55:55

he is out of touch - full stop. YANBU.

belindarose Wed 05-Dec-12 13:07:02

I'm in hospital with baby DS now. I didn't know the realities and my DH is a hospital doctor. There are scores of people involved in DS's care - and he's not even particularly ill. Not one of them has the capacity for more work. This is an amazing experience - not one I'd wish on anyone or want to be repeated, obviously.

DC should have seen the realities when his own son was so poorly. Sadly, he seems to have a short memory.

rogersmellyonthetelly Wed 05-Dec-12 13:46:37

DC has his head up his arse. There aren't enough doctors, nurses or hcas to cope with the current demand. This is causing inadequate care, mistakes, staff burnout/stress. The answer to this is not to give more targets, as all that happens is that someone has to implement them, monitor them, have meetings and form committees to deal with them, and eventually, find a way of reporting that shows the targets are being met, when in fact they aren't being met, the figures are being fudged.
My younger sister works on a ward where a number of patients is incontinent, and they run out of nappies/pads regularly because due to budget issues they have to leave ordering until the last minute. Crazy situation. I have volunteered on the postnatal ward at my local hospital as a bf supporter and I've seen a full ward of 30 women and 15 antenatal women being dealt with by just 2 midwives because someone has called
in sick and they don't have anyone available to cover, and can't pay for bank staff.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Wed 05-Dec-12 13:50:21

YABU. I've personally experienced an absence of basic care by NHS staff on several occasions. One nurse memorably preferred to start her night shift by dishing out sleeping tablets to all patients whether they needed them or not. That way she could spend the next few hours uninterrupted by pesky requests for attention .... hmm. Another time staff only seemed galvanised into action when a doctor was about to do their rounds - invisible otherwise. Whether Cameron's specific suggestion is right or not is debatable but the problems with basic care in the NHS should not be underestimated and should concern us all.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Wed 05-Dec-12 13:56:04

I think he knows that what he is suggesting is never going to happen, but by saying it, enough people will believe he cares about the NHS that it's worth saying whether or not it happens.

The future of the NHS is terrifying.

OnwardBound Wed 05-Dec-12 14:01:26

I don't imagine that DC ever saw the real situation when his DS was unwell...

Although he was in the NHS, he would have had a VIP experience.

So it would have seemed as if there were plenty of smiling happy nurses to attend them and a polite and pleasant consultant [not a junior Dr!] who popped in regularly to advise and explain.

I am sure it was still a stressful and upsetting experience for DC to see his child so ill but I am sure he was shielded from the realities of staffing and budget cuts, dire hospital fare, etc.

FannyFifer Wed 05-Dec-12 14:11:46

The patronising nurses are angels, don't call me a feckin angel, just make if possible for me to do my job properly.
Care of the elderly wards are usually working with the bare minimum numbers of staff as non acute, people who are unable to dress, eat, drink, move, toilet without full assistance, it's utterly heartbreaking.

So much so that I no longer work in general hospitals as I don't feel able to do my job. I was ill, staying hours after shifts completing paperwork, sitting with dying patients, going home fretting that I had forgotten, missed something.

Lougle Wed 05-Dec-12 14:12:23

"YABU. I've personally experienced an absence of basic care by NHS staff on several occasions."

Cogit...that isn't going to change by giving nurses an hourly checklist. There is already too much to fit into each hour. Nurses are already being told off if they spend too much time dealing with patients and not enough time documenting care.

What is needed is more staffing of permanent staff, who can devote time to patients as they need it. What currently happens, is regular budgets are restricted, so 'natural wastage' implemented to cut costs. Then, agencies used to plug gaps at huge cost, but it's ok because it's from a different part of the budget!

Electricblanket Wed 05-Dec-12 14:29:51

I Realy don't know!

6 years ago a member of my immediate family was in hospital for 5 weeks, We too experienced first hand a basic lack of care.

We wern't as mentioned v I p's!

It's a mess - no staff, no money, low staff moral and quite rightly high patient expectations.

Staff across all area of the NHS are drowning in paperwork - time the could be spent on patient care. No one is listening. All politicians are interested in saying what the public wants to hear, they have no clue how they are going to deliver it.

reikizen Wed 05-Dec-12 14:52:12

He's a fucking idiot. No-one in the NHS is an angel, we are human beings trying to do a job which gets harder and more paperwork intensive every day. He is trying to make NHS staff look like we don't give a shit to make it easier to sack us and reinstate bare minimum numbers on worse pay and conditions with the support of the public who are being led to believe we all go to work cackling and devising plans for snoozing in a spare bed somewhere. I work without a break on 95% of my shifts, particularly nights. And that means they get between 30-60 minutes work for free off me every shift.

LRDtheFeministDude Wed 05-Dec-12 15:00:30

I think outraged has it right - he imagines he's going to look caring and righteously angry about keeping the NHS up to scratch if he says this.

Instead he just looks like an idiot who didn't do his research and/or didn't believe his listeners would know any better.

AllYoursJingleBellbooshka Wed 05-Dec-12 15:11:02

DC could not be more out touch if he was living on Pluto in an air-tight bubble.

Actually that sounds like bliss, let's start a little collection to get him there. smile

<shakes tin>

TakeMyEyesButNotTheGoat Wed 05-Dec-12 15:26:43

Stupid idiot.

I've just finished an early shift, 1 Q & 2 HCA's looking after 12 elderly, acute medical patients. 10 also have dementia.
We already have 4 checklists. Falls, skin, catheter and environmental.

All our patients need assistance to wash, most need 2 members of staff. You cannot transfer a patient from bed to chair without 1-2 staff. 3 needed feeding while the rest need prompting or food cutting up etc.

This as well as all medical needs met, IV's, controlled drugs (2 Q staff)

One patient has been trying to climb out of her bed all morning, too high risk to sit her in a chair. One patient wanders and is high risk of falls.

Hygiene needs are priority, nutrition and hydration is a priority, prevention of falls and absconding of the ward, medications, paperwork. It goes on and on and on.

Everything is a priority. Making sure everything is documented has become a priority over everything else it seems.

Lougle Wed 05-Dec-12 15:28:43

'So, Mrs Ramsbottom, how was your stay in hospital following the introduction of 'hourly roundings'?'

'Oh well, they were very caring. Every hour, it seemed, I had someone checking that I had water and didn't have bedsores. Unfortunately, because the nurses were so busy doing their hourly roundings, they didn't have time to give me my morphine....'

Viviennemary Wed 05-Dec-12 15:29:28

Less time spent at those so called nursing stations might be a help. Since when did a desk need nursing. I think David Cameron is on the right tracks.

Latonia Wed 05-Dec-12 15:33:23

Well maybe it would have helped the man in hospital who was slumped over with his face in a plate of food when I was visiting my Father. I pointed it out to a nurse, but he was still in the same position some time later. Had another word with a nurse who then did go to him.

sashh Wed 05-Dec-12 15:37:29

David Cameron wants to introduce 'hourly roundings'. That is, that each patient under a nurse's care should have a 'nurse by the bedside, at least once an hour, checking that they have had water, that they're not uncomfortable, that they don't have bedsores

So they can die of sleep deprivation? And what is the point of HCAs if nurses are doing this?

FreddieMercuryforQueen Wed 05-Dec-12 15:40:50

Most of the time spent at the nursing stations is doing the paperwork. If it ain't written down then it never happened. So we have the choice of being with patient or being with paperwork. If we're with patient we have to write it all up anyway. I know some people do sadly have bad experiences within the NHS but if we had less paperwork and more staff I'm sure they'd reduce. All we ask for is enough time to perform our necessary tasks and to care for our patients in a way that everyone comes away satisfied by the experience. Hourly rounds are not the way to achieve this.

I can just imagine the 7 women with breastfeeding problems, 2 of whom have twins who are of a low birthweight would be really happy with the 2 or 3 minutes I'd be able to allocate to them during my hourly rounds.

Do you know we are no longer allowed to have a cup of tea or water on the nurses station any more as members of the public assume we're sitting around doing nothing when actually we're more likely to be working through our break doing paperwork and grabbing the only chance we might get in 13 hours to rehydrate ourselves.

Viviennemary Wed 05-Dec-12 15:44:54

I certainly agree with less paperwork and more staff. What's the point of paperwork if patients are dying of neglect.

threesocksfullofchocs Wed 05-Dec-12 15:45:54

yabu for thinking he might have the faintest idea.
yes he had a child that will have been in hospital. but he was not the carer. so he would not have spent a lot of time there.
he will have a rosy veiw of it all.

agedknees Wed 05-Dec-12 15:47:47

Neglect by government not ensuring the correct amount of nursing staff on a ward.

chris481 Wed 05-Dec-12 15:47:59

I think good basic care is an absolute requirement, not a question of priorities. So if hourly checkups are required to ensure it happens, then they must happen. Tax rates will just have to go up to whatever is necessary to pay for the staff increase.

TakeMyEyesButNotTheGoat Wed 05-Dec-12 15:50:09

The nurses station is there for the nurses to use. Where are they supposed to write their notes, make referrals, sort out discharges etc? The toilet??

It's not always nurses sat there anyway, sometimes its physio's, OT's or clinical nurse specialists visiting the ward's.

I bet that most of the time when a visitor has come in and found a nurse sat at the nurses station, there is paperwork on the desk.

Also, we do have something called specialling. Where a nurse/HCA have to sit in the middle of a ward or outside a patient's room and stay there to make sure no one falls or tries to abscond.

There is a bigger picture than most of the public realise.

agedknees Wed 05-Dec-12 15:50:09

Ask DC why there is not a legal ratio of qualified staff to patients on general wards in the NHS.

I have. Am still waiting for my reply.

MammaTJ Wed 05-Dec-12 15:50:55

What is the point of HCAs if nurses are doing this?

I am perfectly capable, with my NVQ in Direct Care and years of experience, of completing these very basic patient needs.

TakeMyEyesButNotTheGoat Wed 05-Dec-12 15:55:29

What is your definition of good basic care within a hospital setting Chris?

Nutrition and hydration?
Medications and investigations?
Falls prevention?

It's all part of basic care in a hospital.
Unless you work in that setting, you cannot really understand the time constraints with so few staff.

Lougle Wed 05-Dec-12 20:35:52

" MammaTJ Wed 05-Dec-12 15:50:55

What is the point of HCAs if nurses are doing this?

I am perfectly capable, with my NVQ in Direct Care and years of experience, of completing these very basic patient needs. "

They are core needs, but not basic needs. Many many times, a patient will reveal the most during the most mundane of situations.

I remember as a supply nurse, admitting a man who said he hadn't had any surgery. The next morning, as I was helping him with a wash, I noticed scarring. I said 'Fred, what's that scar then?' He replied 'That was by cabbage (CABG) in 1989.' I pointed to another scar, and said 'what about that one?' He replied 'That was my lobectomy, in 1983.' I then said 'but you said you didn't have any surgery.' 'No, they were just operations...' Now we would have found that out, from his notes, etc., but there are many things we might not find out if nurses step away from core nursing care.

What nurses don't need to do though, is be mechanised by the system, to only see patients once an hour for 2 minutes, because they have to fit in the other 14 patients regardless of how well or near to discharge they are.

GhostShip Wed 05-Dec-12 21:57:28

I think good basic care is an absolute requirement, not a question of priorities. So if hourly checkups are required to ensure it happens, then they must happen. Tax rates will just have to go up to whatever is necessary to pay for the staff increase


GhostShip Wed 05-Dec-12 22:01:22

Its a sad state of affairs it really is. It makes me so sad to know that people arent getting the care they need, and it's not through lack of trying on the nurses part - not to say theyre all angels, but most go into the job because they care. And some end up leaving it bitter and angry.

I've worked as a HCA in a hospital and in a private care home. Both were horrendous because of staff shortages and lack of funds. Things could be so different if there was only the money.

I sometimes think I'm mad for spending the next 5 years of my life studying to get the privilege of working in the NHS sad

Rhinosaurus Wed 05-Dec-12 22:03:14

This is nothing new, when I was on the wards 3 years ago they introduced "intentional rounding".

Guess what swiftly followed? An A4 landscape checklist to be signed off after you'd done each patient's rounding hmm

takataka Wed 05-Dec-12 22:09:35

there is also talk in the SW of reducing salary for newly qualified nurses to 14K, and removing the unsociable hours payment for working shifts for qualified staff

David Cameron is a fucking arsehole

maillotjaune Wed 05-Dec-12 22:11:20

Nurses should be able to exercise their judgement about who needs care, not tied to filling in another form. I can't see this improving care if staff are already overstretched.

I have received great care from the NHS, and witnessed the same for my DH and parents but when things do go wrong does DC really think a compulsory 4 mins am hour would help?

Personally I would hate unnecessary rounds along the lines of being woken at 7 am on a postnatal ward, 30 minutes after getting a baby back to sleep, to ask me if I wanted some paracetamol.

GhostShip Wed 05-Dec-12 22:12:37


Seriously???? At the moment I'm on a 2 year access course, in 2014 I'm wanting to go onto study midwifery, or Critical care nursing. 5 years it will take all in all, for 14k? It can't happen. Surely not. I hope not!

GhostShip Wed 05-Dec-12 22:12:54

sorry x post

takataka Wed 05-Dec-12 22:18:55


i dont know where you could find the wages figures officially; my friend is in her final year of nursing degree, and it is well known in the uni/on the wards...sad

GhostShip Wed 05-Dec-12 22:23:33

Thanks for that Takataka. I'll have a read now

Rhinosaurus Wed 05-Dec-12 22:23:43

I think the pay consortium cartel has agreed to stick to nationally agreed pay bands now, but if you are at uni I would have thought this would have been discussed at length in lectures? It's been going since the summer.

GhostShip Wed 05-Dec-12 22:34:17

Access course is college. smile

Morloth Wed 05-Dec-12 22:35:16

Sounds like a great idea!

Now, how is he arranging the funding required?

TakeMyEyesButNotTheGoat Wed 05-Dec-12 22:35:29

I've noticed that most job vacancies within our trust are lower bands than what they used to be.

That's if you can get a qualified post that is.

As for HCA salaries, in our trust they are on the same band as ward based caterers.
One bank nurse I worked with today started in October. Our caterer earns more money than she does because the caterer has been there for 3 years.

Without meaning to offend anyone who works as a ward based caterer, but its fucking insane. All the caterer does is dish up the food that comes from the kitchens, loads the dishwasher, makes cups of tea and refills water jugs.

How is that justified?

meddie Wed 05-Dec-12 22:55:13

I don't think DC or even a lot of the general public realise the immense pressure and poor staffing hospitals are currently experiencing, specifically on care of the elderly wards. As that area isn't 'sexy or exciting' so they can get away with the cuts no one really cares enough to protest march over it. No one would tolerate it if it was a childrens ward.

if anyone really wants to see what its like to work on an elderly care ward. google militant medical nurse and check out her blog. Unfortunately she finally gave up working in the NHS and now works in the states,so doesnt post regularly anymore but its a real eye opener. specifically read about why patients aren't fed etc.

The language is a bit choice, but I assume that is from frustration, you have been warned...

Also for anyone who wants to see what the government is doing behind your backs to dismantle and privatise large areas of the NHS then 'The green benches' has a lot of information that is very interesting reading.

ChestyNutsRoastingOnAnOpenFire Wed 05-Dec-12 23:09:33

Absolutely out of touch and quite frankly he has no idea and neither do a lot of the public as proved by the silly "nurses station" comment.

Maybe that's during their unpaid break when there catching up on the reams of paperwork that it is a legal requirement to complete, because they haven't had a minute free.

Not only are the staff overworked, ridiculously stressed as they are physically incapable of fitting the work load in on current crappy job freeze induced staffy numbers and leaving most shifts in tears, without a drink or food or a pee but some people think theyre sat at the nurses station twiddling their thumbs?!

David Cameron wants to take himself ( and the managers) and follow a nurse on shift and see the realities of what goes on.

<<deep breath>>

ENormaSnob Wed 05-Dec-12 23:42:10

I am a midwife with a background in emergency medicine as a staff nurse.

Things were bad when I started in 02. They are gradually getting worse.

Our nhs is in serious trouble imo. Budget constraints, lack of staff and an increasing demand are crippling it.

Staff morale is horrendous atm, everyone is exhausted and demoralised. Talk of hospitals shutting, pay cuts, redundancies, lack of breaks, unpaid overtime and an unworkable workload but to name a few.

I see it from the other side too. I received substandard care as an acutely unwell surgical patient 7 years ago. I am concerned about giving birth in my local trust as I'm aware how busy we are sad

Gigglepott Wed 05-Dec-12 23:42:28

Our trust has been doing hourly rounds since August. We alternate it so a HCA asks one hour and then the nurse asks the next hour and so on.

I have been told I am stupid, incompetent, to go away and been sworn at by patients for asking the David Cameron questions.

One of my colleagues wrote to him inviting him to come and work a shift on our busy acute surgical ward, we are still waiting for a reply.

I love my job and don't regret my 3 years of training but sometimes going into work and filling in endless piles of paperwork makes me want to cry!

OnwardBound Sat 08-Dec-12 00:19:17

Seriously why would anyone bother studying nursing [3 year degree]?

For £14,000?

When a newly qualified tube train driver [16 weeks training] earns £30,000?


mummymacbeth Sat 08-Dec-12 01:04:16

David Cameron and his gang are beyond out of touch. why anyone voted for them is beyond me. did they all have amnesia? did they forget what conservative governments do? he is indeed a spam robot as caitlin moran says. spamamatronic

MammaTJ Sat 08-Dec-12 19:35:49

Lougle, had I had that conversation with a patient, I would certainly report it to the trained nurse.

Like Ghost, one day I hope to be a trained nurse, I am currently doing an access course and in the process of filling in my UCAS application for next year.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sat 08-Dec-12 19:55:57

I'm sure it's just the way it's edited but the Midwifes on OBEM appear to do shag all other than chat, drink tea and eat biscuits most of the time

I'm surprised they haven't complained about being portrayed that way.....

GhostShip Sun 09-Dec-12 00:19:50

OBEM is not a good portrayal of a labour ward at all.

MummytoKatie Sun 09-Dec-12 02:14:35

I think it sounds an excellent idea! Except blatantly the current staff don't have time to do this so we need additional staff. I don't think it needs to be a nurse though - an experienced HCA could do this role.

I would assign each HCA 10 patients to ensure they can do it properly.

Our local hospital has 700 beds.

So 70 HCAs @ £7 an hour * 24 * 7 * 52is just over £4m. I think the hospital covers a population of about 500,000. So £4m / 500k * 60m is about £500m.*

I guess he'd better start taxing Amazon!

* Note these figures are done at 2am in my head as if I switch to the calculator on the IPad I'll lose what I've typed and I'm too tired to type it twice!

Pilgit Sun 09-Dec-12 07:52:39

Don't know what the answer is but currently i am sitting in a hospital bed (gave birth on friday, DD2 in special care - she's fine now and should be with me today) and getting excellent care from the staff here. But I also know that when the ward is full they will be stretched.

There is a great deal of wastage in the public services (inc NHS) where money that could be spent on front line services is diverted to committees, quangos and middle management with no clinical input. There is a need for some of this but surely not all that there is. or maybe i'm just being naiive.

Can't see how this idea is going to have any impact, except to load more paperwork and duties on an already stretched staff. Can't they stop tinkering and address the things that actually will have an impact on the day to day? i.e. staff levels, pay levels, reducing paperwork, morale?

x2boys Sun 09-Dec-12 09:55:48

I think what most politicians and the general public dont seem to realise is that most nurses do care but we have so much bloody paperwork to do which we are told we have to do or our jobs are in jeopardy that it leaves very little time for patient care the NHS is screwed and completley lost sight of patient care !

FolkElf Sun 09-Dec-12 09:57:05

My dad received shocking care in the two weeks up to his death.

The night he died we arrived and were told that my dad had already died as we were walking through the ward doors - no side room, no seat offered. I wasn't even through the door. We got there and all the nurses were at the nurse's station sitting down. One of them was on the phones, one was using the computer and one was completing paperwork. The others were just sitting down.

We could hear a woman screaming from the other end of the ward "help, help. Please help me. Will someone please help me?" Repeatedly for the hour that we were there.

There was an elderly woman lying on a trolley masturbating in the corridor in full view of everyone. No dignity.

When we left our deceased father in his room to go home, we had to help an old man in full view of the nurses because he couldn't get to them shuffling along with his walking frame and he was clearly confused and in need of help.

We walked past the nurses on the way out. None of them made eye contact with us. they didn't even look up. My brother said "well bye then" a couple looked up and said "yeah, see you" and that was it. They did bring us plenty of tea, I'll say that for them. But other than that I was disgusted with the 'care' he received the whole time he was there.

During his two weeks there we regularly arrived to find his meal had been put on the tray in front of him but he was too weak to eat it and no one had helped him. When I mentioned this to the nurse she said "we can't force patients to eat". No you can't. But if you are going to go through the charade of putting food in front of him, you might at least make some attempt to help him eat it if he is too weak to pick the cutlery up himself.

Patients who were unable to pick up cups and drink were given jugs with a different coloured lid which meant that staff members doing care rounds knew to include offering a drink etc. I know this because there was a poster reminding them to do this at the nurse's station. Everyday I asked them to give my dad the different coloured jug lid. And they didn't. He couldn't support the weight of a small plastic cup so he only drank when we visited him. And he was clearly thirsty because for 2 hours a day when we visited he drank a fair bit. When I mentioned this they said there was no need to offer him water as he was on a saline drip. Maybe not a clinical need, but certainly a human one!

That was people not doing their job properly and thinking "these people are on their last legs anyway so who cares".

This was an eldery care ward.

I'm a teacher so I'm very reluctant to join in with any of the 'bashing' of other public sector workers. I know how hard it can be, how demoralising and how the govt has little idea of what it's like to be doing the job. But my dad's treatment was indefensible.

FolkElf Sun 09-Dec-12 09:59:54

I have also had great care at the hands of the NHS. My daughter would be dead without several of them.

but I find that the standard of care between departments in the same hospital and between different hospitals differs hugely.

x2boys Sun 09-Dec-12 10:21:47

on my days off at present but on friday was on a long day from [7.30am to7.45pm] currently working on a psychiatric intensive care unit all i managed was two cups of tea in the shift and a quick sandwich in my legally required un paid 1 hr break did nt take the whole hour as the ward was so busy when i went off at 8pm [officially finished at 7.45] there was yet another incident and the staff were looking at me as though i sdhould stay but i,m afraid my kids will always come first in my sixteen years as a qualified mental health nurse morale has never been so low

chris481 Sun 09-Dec-12 12:42:03

"What is your definition of good basic care within a hospital setting Chris?

Nutrition and hydration?
Medications and investigations?
Falls prevention?

It's all part of basic care in a hospital.
Unless you work in that setting, you cannot really understand the time constraints with so few staff. "

By good basic care I was thinking mainly of the things even an unqualified person could do. It is not acceptable for them not to be delivered due to staff time constraints. Double, triple, quadruple the staff (hence budget hence taxes) if necessary to deliver. (That's not to say I wouldn't support absolute standards for the majority of things that require qualified staff - I'm just leaving that argument for another day.)

The standard is, if you were taking care of your own sick child at home, one-to-one, what degree of neglect would you consider acceptable? How long without water, medication, toileting, cleaning? It is never acceptable for hospital to have lower standards than that.

Let me be clear, I'm not claiming this is possible on current budgets, I'm not in a position to judge. I'm merely stating what the standard should be.

Someone else was hmm at my suggestion that we pay whatever it takes to achieve this standard. However most (admittedly not all) people have families and it doesn't make sense that just because we've out-sourced the job of caring from families we should automatically tolerate lower standards than if we hadn't done so. Most people do not spend very much of their lives in hospital, it shouldn't be a impossible burden to finance standards like these, given that the cost is spread over the rest of their adult life.

GhostShip Sun 09-Dec-12 12:46:51

It was me who hmm 'd. I don't think we should have our taxes risen more just because our government can't sort it's finances out. Some of us are scraping by as it is. That doesn't mean I don't support more money going into the NHS - but raising people's taxes isn't the way to go.

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 12:50:37

"Staff across all area of the NHS are drowning in paperwork"

That would be all those Labour targets. Tories have sacked six thousand managers appointed in the Labour years - what on earth were they doing that they aren't missed?

The time of the NHS is up - it's an unworkable ideal. I think health "needs" are expanding with provision rather than the other way around. Time to introduce the mutuality and the charge at access I think.

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 12:53:41

I'm with Chris, I must admit. I think a lot of health problems are resolved with "basic care" which prevents them turning into more serious problems, costing more. David Cameron is on the right lines. I think more money would be better spent on community care and keeping people in their homes so that they didn't arrive in hospital in the first place - patients seem so often to deteriorate in an institution.

GhostShip Sun 09-Dec-12 12:57:11

I agree with the basic care things, but it's not the fault of the nurses the majority of the time.

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 13:02:58

Anecdotally that's not as true as it looks Ghost ship.

Plus, whatever you do, however little a nurse is able to do, it's possible to do it gently and with care. Anecdotally that doesn't always happen either.

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 13:09:26

"Vajazzles are behind a huge rise in hospital admissions for embarrassing injuries to private parts." - Daily Mail

Free at the point of access? Perhaps people would think twice about sticking dangerous stuff around their fanoir if they had to actually PAY some overworked doctor to leave a squawking baby in A and E to sort it out.

GhostShip Sun 09-Dec-12 13:09:48

The fact of the matter is though if working conditions were suitable to allow people to give care then it would happen.

I've heard so many nurses say that they feel as though they're begging to be given time to actually care for their patients, instead of being swamped by paperwork. Paperwork that if left incomplete, can cost them their jobs. I've heard some that have been to the point of giving it all up; not just their jobs but their lives. Moral is very low at the moment.

I'm not actually working for the NHS (yet) but I've worked for a private company and had the same problems - lack of staff, lack of money and too much paperwork. It is so disheartening when it is practically impossible to deliver the level of care you feel the people need. Its absolutely soul destroying in fact and is a reason why I had to leave. For my own sanity.

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 13:14:31

"I've heard so many nurses say that they feel as though they're begging to be given time to actually care for their patients, instead of being swamped by paperwork. Paperwork that if left incomplete, can cost them their jobs. I've heard some that have been to the point of giving it all up; not just their jobs but their lives. Moral is very low at the moment."

Again, this paperwork is largely the result of Labour targets. It wasn't introduced by the Tories.

GhostShip Sun 09-Dec-12 13:17:29

I didn't say that it was - I'm just stating how people want to deliver care, but are being blocked from doing so

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 13:18:47

Ghostship, I understand. But I'd also say that anecdotally, we are often not talking about frustrated compassion but about callousness.

Brycie Sun 09-Dec-12 13:20:56

As Ann Clywd recalls: ‘Every time I tried to talk to one of the nurses, they were either on the phone or talking to one another. I know they were busy, but it did not explain how they could completely ignore a patient. "

I copied and pasted it from another thread, but I read it at the time and I've read other similar stories. Enough to know that if one of my parents went into hospital I wouldn't leave their side. I don't trust hospital staff at all any more.

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Sun 09-Dec-12 13:47:36

Have just been told by a family member that nurses who can't get jobs are found a job in the hospital by the government but, they aren't employed or paid by the hospital, they are paid by the government. Just a basic wage with no shift allowance with no additional training because they aren't technically employed by the hospital.

So they basically don't have very much that they can do, nurses require additional training (IVs and such) to do their job, this isn't happening.

So is this just so the government can say that there is more nurses than there technically is?


SpaceOpera Thu 13-Dec-12 21:42:36

Please write to your local paper to ask your new Clinical Comissioning Group to protect the NHS. These GPs, who have never before had to commission services, will be under huge pressure from private interests to put profits before patient care. Join the 38 degrees campaign here.

And if a doctor is standing as an independent for election in your constituency come 2014, vote for them!

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