'Why did you have a baby with him then?'

(224 Posts)
AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 13:28:17

Who on earth decided this was an ok question to ask someone?

My DS's dad is a knob. If people ask about him they are told he is a knob. Why do some people think it is ok to then ask that question?! Do they seriously think I made a deliberate decision to have to have him in my life for the next 18 years?

I get it quite a lot and I have seen it on here a few times too. It is not helpful. For those that ask this you should consider yourself lucky that you didn't end up with someone that mistreated you and your child. Nobody chooses this situation for themselves.



TeaBrick Sun 02-Dec-12 13:30:26

To be fair, I often ask myself that question about ds's dad. It seemed like a good idea at the time, I loved him, and he hadn't shown his true colours at that stage, even though I had know him for 4 years. I would never ask anyone else that question about their own situation though, that's really rude.

BalthierBunansa Sun 02-Dec-12 13:30:57

YANBU, my DM who got asked the same questions when I was young. I don't see how its anybody's business but your own.

whois Sun 02-Dec-12 13:34:54


I think that question when women are with an absolute deadbeat, crap relationship, not married etc then get pg. it is a conscious decision to have a baby with the twat of a father, there are alternatives to keeping it.

Bit different if as TeaBrick says they haven't shown their true colours.

SirBoobAlot Sun 02-Dec-12 13:37:15

YANBU. Gets right on my tits.

Strangely enough you don't get a crystal ball when you start a relationship with someone to see what a wanker they will be down the line.

And whois you can shove your opinion.

Kayano Sun 02-Dec-12 13:37:19

I never say it but I have been guilty of thinking it. Not when people have broken up loads later after a good relationship, but when people do nothing but complain about their relationship, then have a baby, then break up and complain non stop about them, as if having a baby would make it better.

And not every one, its when they actively try for a baby with waste of space dickheads (of which I have only ever known and thought this regarding 2 people ever)

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 13:39:14

whois my situation is as teabrick mentioned but even if it wasn't, how dare anyone question the choice someone made with their pregnancy?! Unplanned pregnancies with people that don't know each other well, people who have had a nasty split, or even a baby deliberately created from an unhappy relationship. I can't imagine anybody would deliberately create a child with someone if they anticipated that their fathers child would be crap.

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 13:41:17

What I don't understand is why a woman has one child with a shithead, he treats her and the baby like utter crap, and then she goes on and deliberately has a second, and even a third child with him. It boggles my mind and seems incredibly cruel to carry on bringing children into a terrible relationship.

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 13:41:23

'there are alternatives to keeping it' - yeah, like not getting pregnant? Or did you mean just getting an abortion because you happened to sleep with a twat?

GnTwivslicenice Sun 02-Dec-12 13:46:44

YADNBU!! It's not their jeffing business!! Having a baby with a knob head is bad enough, having to explain yourself all the time is just plain annoying!!

TidyDancer Sun 02-Dec-12 13:47:46

I think you can certainly legitimately at least think it if there goes on to be a further child born into the situation.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 13:47:52

I'm also guilty of thinking it but wouldn't say it

Especially when I have friends who are in shit relationships which they know are shit and chose to get pregnant either because they think it will "fix" the relationship or "keep" a man they feel may be going to end it with them. I have seen people do both and I haven't seen it work out yet

I still wouldn't say it though. But, yes, I do think it sometimes.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Sun 02-Dec-12 13:49:44

I happen to agree with whois and ask my mother that all the time about my father. And she had two children with the dick head.

Of course, 45 and 43 years ago in the US she didn't have much choice and they were married at the time.

He's was a dick head then. He's a dick head now. And she agrees with me. And admits she did it to escape her abusive father and at least he wasn't that.

Just a dick head.

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 13:51:08

Think ourselves lucky? It's not luck that means your co-parent isn't a twat, its picking the right person for the job.

You had a baby with a knob, no-ones fault but your own. Bit rude of people to actually say it out loud, but others will be thinking it.

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 13:51:24

We all think rude things we wouldn't say from time to time I guess. I know of just one girl that deliberately got pregnant for a second time knowing her relationship was bad. But she genuinely believed it would fix things. As stupid as that is, and yes congratulations to those of u who know better, she didn't do it believing it would lead to the bad situation she has now.

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 13:52:46

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Cozy9 Sun 02-Dec-12 13:55:05

I think it all the time, YABU. A baby will never fix a bad relationship. And no-one should be having babies knowing that they can't afford them without state assistance.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 13:55:58

If someone genuinely believed setting their hand on fire would be a good thing, you would be within your rights to think that was a pretty stupid decision

You'd still be rude to say it out loud though

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 13:56:06

cozy that was a joke right?

WhenShallWeThreeKingsMeetAgain Sun 02-Dec-12 13:56:10

Agree with MissCellania actually.

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 13:56:18

Picking the right person for the job? What do you do, get them to fill in a questionnaire first? Jesus.

QODRestYeMerryGentlemen Sun 02-Dec-12 13:56:51

My SIL has 5 kids by 3 different twat dads. She never learnt, sad thing is, she just cannot stay civil with them either, those kids are linked between their dads and dads families for ever and she constantly calls them all the names under the sun.
She falls out with everyone btw, so I don't necessarily think 1 of the 3 is and at all actually

cakebar Sun 02-Dec-12 13:56:56

Yep, I think it, but don't say it. I especially think it if they are not married.
The saddest thing is that I think sometimes the woman involved thinks she can't get anyone better and that is seriously not true.

I understand people knowlingly having kids with twats if they genuinely think they can't find anyone better, but then they can't moan he is a twat.

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 13:57:15

'Twas only a matter of time before someone brought benefits into it...

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Sun 02-Dec-12 13:59:39

Actually, cat, I would say out loud 'you are really stupid for setting your hand on fire.'

But then, I say most things out loud.

BelaLugosisShed Sun 02-Dec-12 13:59:56

I do think the vast majority of women have to take responsibility for their poor choice of partner, the number of narc/abusive/psychotic men are quite few and far between and most crap men show their true colours way before the breeding stage.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 14:00:10

Whatsthebuzz - I think the idea is to ascertain before having a baby if they are a twat or not.

Bit difficult if they don't show their twattishness until after you get pg but if you knew they were a twat beforehand then chose to have a baby with them people would be within their rights to ponder why you would do that. But not to say it.

FestiveDigestive Sun 02-Dec-12 14:00:10

OP - Do you think it might be the "telling people that he's a knob" part that causes them to then ask you that question?! Perhaps stop telling people that when they ask about him and then they will stop asking you a question that irritates you.

Do you give that response when DS in earshot?

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 14:01:08

grin Tee..............to be fair I might pick someone up on setting their hand on fire.

Or just back slowly away......... grin

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Sun 02-Dec-12 14:01:38

Good point FestiveDigestive.

DontmindifIdo Sun 02-Dec-12 14:02:00

well, the trick is to not shag a twat in the first place, but some woman are really, really, really crap at spotting a twat. You read the relationship threads and think "why the fuck did it take that to make you leave? Why didn't you go at X?" and when you can clearly see after a few minutes that a man's not a keeper, you can't help but wonder why their DPs didn't see it too. But some woman really can't see they level of twattery in a bloke until it's really shoved in their face, often by this point they are already pregnant, or at least have emotionally commited themselves to the relationship.

"Why did you have a baby with him then?" Could much more appropriately be "why did you ever have a second date with him?" it's basically coming from the same point. Some woman have to learn the very, very hard way. OP, I guess you're one of them.

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 14:02:05

Festive of course I don't bad mouth him in front of my son. And I don't just blurt out 'HE'S A KNOB! A KNOB I TELL YOU!' To anyone that mentions his name. In a conversation about him, I will tell the truth.

SnowWhiterThenWhite Sun 02-Dec-12 14:02:11

I think some of the comments on here are incredibly rude and unfair actually. I didn't CHOOSE to have a baby with someone abusive that later on decided that actually he was gay. I knew he wasn't ever going to be a superb father but I was 16 and u chose to have my baby because he was MY baby. I would never have an abortion because I didn't like the father. I believed that I could be a good enough mother to counteract that and I now have a very happy, well adjusted gorgeous 5 year old Ds. Yes his father is a waste of space but I didn't choose to have a baby with him. It was unplanned and I chose to have my baby because he was mine. Nothing to do with the father.

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 14:02:47

Probably about as much as you meant to sound like a moany arse, I'd say.

Probably best if you stop going around telling people your DS's dad is a knob, then you won't have the problem at all.

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 14:04:31

I am genuinely shocked by the amount of high horses.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Sun 02-Dec-12 14:05:07

My point, Snow, is why even have sex with someone who isn't going to be a good father?

Because that is always a potential outcome of having sex, no matter your birth control method. A baby.

TheNebulousBoojum Sun 02-Dec-12 14:05:17

It's hard not to think it when one fucked-up child after another passes through your hands, one dysfunctional sibling after another not into double figures and already learning that people can be shit, untrustworthy, aggressive, use you as a bargaining chip in an unstable relationship...
I'm not generalising about all SPF, but sometimes having a baby with an arsehole and the fallout really isn't just about the mother. Sometimes the consequences for the child make me feel like screaming 'Why did you have a baby with him? Was that the best you thought you could do? ' Never say it, but I have thought it.

Proudnscaryvirginmary Sun 02-Dec-12 14:07:22

I was speaking to a mum at school on Friday. She's left twat of a husband. She said he'd been an arse for years and the kids had been negatively impacted. I diplomatically said 'What were things like when you were first together? Did you have a good relationship back then?' to avoid being so blunt/rude. But you can't stop people thinking what they think, OP.

CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts Sun 02-Dec-12 14:07:34

YANBU because that's a pretty stupid & insensitive thing to say to someone, out loud at any rate. However, I've often found myself wondering whether some people actually met each other before deciding to set up home together. confused Twattery may not show itself until late in the day but surely the low-level sock-dropping and grime-ignoring was apparent from the start...... ?

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 14:08:02

High horses? Hardly. Some of us have the experience of being the child of the said knob.

Presumably you knew he was a twat before you got pregnant?

GhostShip Sun 02-Dec-12 14:08:51

To be honest it's a fair question, when women have multiple children with the same nobhead. Sometimes in the hope that 'itll change them' hmm

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 14:09:05

I suppose if someone says

"I was with this guy for 4 years and he was lovely and the time was right and we decided to have a baby, then he turned out to be a twat" you would think "oh, I can see why you had a baby with him - what a shame he was a secret twat"

But if you are saying "I was with this guy for 4 years, he was a total twat the whole time, cheated, abusive, took drugs, stole from me and killed my kitten and we decided to have a baby" then people are going to wonder why you would do that.

Cozy9 Sun 02-Dec-12 14:09:08

If you have sex with someone without contraception, and you don't believe in abortion, then saying you didn't CHOOSE to have a baby with that person is nonsense really, isn't it?

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 14:11:16

No Cellania as I have said upthread he was lovely until I had his baby. Why would you presume he was a knob beforehand?

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 14:13:27

Q. Why did you have a baby with him then?

A. Young, naive hopes and dreams.

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 14:13:33

So, if a woman has a baby with a twat in the hope that 'it'll change him', she's not expecting him to always be a twat. Which probably means she's expecting him to step up and be a good partner/father. Which is probably why she chose to have a baby with him. And anyone who is nosy enough to actually question it (not think it, can't really help what you think) should fuck off and mind their own, quite frankly.

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 14:14:54

Or maybe, just maybe, a woman who shags a twat and gets pregnant is confident enough in her own ability to raise a baby.

Kalisi Sun 02-Dec-12 14:14:55

Yabu, it depends on the situation really. We should all be responsible for the choices we make in this life and although I probably wouldn't say it to someone myself, there are definately occasions where I have thought it. Alternatively, I don't think it about everyone who has a baby with a twat just some people.

GhostShip Sun 02-Dec-12 14:16:34

So, if a woman has a baby with a twat in the hope that 'it'll change him', she's not expecting him to always be a twat. Which probably means she's expecting him to step up and be a good partner/father

So she thinks having a baby will fix things. Since when has this been a good thing to do?

It's a means to an end, why bring a baby into a shitty relationship.

Not sure why you're defending it, unless youre someone who's done it.

Viviennemary Sun 02-Dec-12 14:16:49

When I think about a couple of my past boyfriends I think good grief I had a lucky escape. But somebody else didn't! Or maybe they had a lucky escape from me. grin But hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's easy to marry the wrong man.

Floggingmolly Sun 02-Dec-12 14:17:59

I would never have an abortion because I didn't like the father hmm
Maybe stop shagging random tossers you don't actually like?

TheNebulousBoojum Sun 02-Dec-12 14:19:21

I've known dozens and dozens of women who have had a baby with a twat and done a fantastic job of raising them because they prioritised the child's safety, security and emotional wellbeing above their own wants and that of the twat.
So all the decisions they made put the child's needs first,

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 14:19:46

ghostship you can presume whatever the hell you like about me... Who said it was a good thing to do? Good for you that you've never been naive or wrong about anything hmm

GhostShip Sun 02-Dec-12 14:20:03

My ex was a horrible cheating abusive twat. I fell pregnant by him, through no fault of my own since I was on the pill AND the implant. I lost the baby.
I would never, EVER have brought a baby willingly into the relationship. It was my choice to put up with his shit, I would have had no right bringing a tiny person into that hell hole. So why some women think it's okay, in the HOPE that'll it'll change him, I just cant accept it.

I don't think people should say though, why did you have a baby with him then, unless they know for sure he was a twat before the baby came.

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 14:20:05

The signs are generally there beforehand. People pretend to be shocked but no-one turns from perfect to twat overnight.

GhostShip Sun 02-Dec-12 14:21:21

x post

whatsthebuzz - What am I assuming? You've defended it. Why would you defend it? We can't let naivety be an excuse for everything. Read my post above. I wa 16-20 when I was with my ex.

FestiveDigestive Sun 02-Dec-12 14:22:10

OP - Fair enough. But I have met women who would happily describe the father of their child as a knob (or far far worse) in front of the child. Or even TO the child, or to anyone that will listen, even if they don't know them well.. I think when someone is behaving like that, asking "Why did you have a child with him then?" is a question that might just pop out in annoyance.

To a close friend, obviously you will share the details of your relationship. But to anyone else you meet, surely just saying "It didn't work out" or "he's not interested in a relationship with DS" would cover it and then people wouldn't feel the need to ask why. Lots of relationships don't work out.

FestiveDigestive Sun 02-Dec-12 14:23:59

Similar to a man describing his ex (who is the mother of his child) as "a bitch" or something similar. It just seems incredibly disrespectful to the child, even if the man thinks it's true. I'm always wary of anyone who is happy to bad-mouth their ex in public.

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 14:25:09

Okay, at exactly which point did I 'defend' having a baby with someone in the hope that it would change them? What would you rather people did, told the women who do it that they're stupid bitches and deserve all they get?

KenLeeeeeee Sun 02-Dec-12 14:26:54

I get it about my ex all the time and it pisses me off more than you can believe. Firstly, his twattery didn't emerge 'til I was pregnant. Secondly, it was a surprise pregnancy & abortion is not something I could ever go through with*. It's not my fault that he couldn't face up to the challenges of parenthood like the rest of us do when a baby comes along.


* I fully support the right of women to choose termination, it's just not something I could do myself.

GhostShip Sun 02-Dec-12 14:26:59

WhatsTheBuzz - you were making excuses for the actions, thus defending it.

I didn't say we should call them stupid bitches. I just said its a fair comment.

SugarplumMary Sun 02-Dec-12 14:28:13

I'm another you thinks it but would never say it.

I know a fair few very intelligent women who’ve been cheating or endless rows or its obvious DP/DH has one foot out the door or they are both really unhappy. Next thing you know their pg.

This includes my own DSis – she is never free of the twat and he gets to mess their DC and her round at his will.

He cheated on her before pg and she found out – next thing she pg. He cheated during pg and straight afterwards with string of others – he was jealous of the baby, stops and starts contact at will pays no money for his DC upbringing, always looking to control or to have an argument. Love DN and Dsis but they have it hard.

Another friend had broken up – her bloke come round to pick stuff up they got back together for 5 days – during which they got drunck and had sex with no contraception – her words – and then she was pg. He was gone –drifted back in and out as it suits him– causes rows with her new DH.

In both those case they’ve ended up single working parents reliant of family and friends for help with childcare. It’s been bloody hard for them and not always easy on people round them.

VeryProbablyStupid Sun 02-Dec-12 14:32:05

Yunbu. I am a single parent who's ex is a knob. I didn't plan my pregnancy, and I also chose not to abort my son just because he was unexpected. I don't think anyone has the right to ask such a rude question without knowing you, your last and the reason for your choices. I hope every self righteous twat who asks this should have to deal with something dramatic, unexpected and life changing and then have to deal with people being rude as Hell about it. Arseholes...

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 14:32:35

Well, tbh, I think there are people in the world whose actions are less deserving of being excused than a woman who is unlucky enough to have ended up with a bastard and desperately hopes she can change him. Plus, if she believes SHE'S capable of looking after a baby, any judgemental fucker who asks her why she did should maybe just piss off and hope nothing ever goes wrong for them.

socharlotte Sun 02-Dec-12 14:33:44

..and WAIT a while before having a baby with someone new.It is much harder to hide twattishness for any length of time.I wouldn't dream of having a baby with someone I had only been with 6 months or a year!

OptimisticPessimist Sun 02-Dec-12 14:33:46

I think a lot of people don't really understand the dynamics in dysfunctional (and even abusive) relationships - I didn't until afterwards when I was able to look back objectively. Dysfunctional relationships aren't necessarily always bad - they often go through cycles of good times, bad times and big blow-ups that lead back to the good times. In every good time you end up thinking "this is it, finally we've sorted out our problems and everything's going to be fine now" and for a while it feels like that, until of course it all slips again and the bad times start again. I had three kids with my XP, all of them conceived in the "good times" when our relationship seemed and felt good. Of course, as I got older (I was a very naive 17-year old when we got together), wiser, more experienced and this cycle repeated over and over, I realised that it was never-ending, there was no "permanent fix", that even the good times weren't really good and so I ended the relationship. At the time my mindset was so very, very different compared to now, I know now it was stupid and reckless to have children with him but at the time it didn't seem that way at all.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Sun 02-Dec-12 14:34:47

i think there are people this question applies to (me) and people it doesn't.

i think most people have a good idea of who the person is/what they're like when they have a child with them.

obviously there are circumstances when this isn't the case, like ONS or unplanned pregnancies early in the relationship, or the partner completely hiding their true self until after the children are born, or mental illness occuring.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 14:34:59

I know a girl at the moment who is with a man and fears he may end it at some point

She is trying to get pg to "keep" him

This man left his first child and its mother to be with another woman who he left after 15 years and 2 more children to be with her.........

If and when she gets pg, I will think it. And when he leaves her and the baby for the next new model I will think it again. I won't say it though

PoppyAmex Sun 02-Dec-12 14:35:36

I think when you choose to talk about your private life and about your DC's father you open yourself to comments, so you can't really say it's no one's business.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Sun 02-Dec-12 14:36:37

having said that i would never ask someone that question. if it applies to them they've probably already asked it of themselves, and either way, the answer doesn't change the fact that children now exist and the best has to be made of a situation.

GhostShip Sun 02-Dec-12 14:37:30

Optimistic - I completely understand that, your situation sounds much like mine was. I was young, he was older, and the good times I thought were good, and the bad times horrific. I did think oh its going so well, maybe its time, but I ALWAYS had that niggling doubt in the back of my mind - and thank god I had.

Now I am truly happy, with an amazing man, I've realised those times I thought were good weren't actually good. They were just considerably better than the bad times.

Hindsights an amazing thing isn't it! I'm just lucky I was an over thinker and worrier!

I hope you're happy now smile

WhatsTheBuzz Sun 02-Dec-12 14:37:55

catgirl that's sad though. It's awful that someone could feel so insecure.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 14:39:49

I know..........I do feel sad for her sad

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 14:40:43

And the other two women, and the children.

Adding another one to the mess seems a real shame to me sad

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Sun 02-Dec-12 14:41:46

I just say now ... because sometimes even rational sane people do completely stupid things. I consider myself lucky because even though her dad is a knob that I got to have a wonderful daughter out of a silly mistake, other people aren't as lucky when they mess up in life. So I guess I can tolerate that wanker to ensure my baby is happy. Does that answer your question?

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 14:42:10

Can I just add that when we are talking twattery that would be considered to be abusive twattery that often the signs are not there in advance.

It is a well known fact ( check out woman's aid website or any other respected info resource about DV ) that abusive behaviour often only starts after a massive commitment has been made usually things like moving in together, a marriage or pregnancy Ime a pregnancy is the most usual.

So it's perfectly understandable that if a pregnancy triggers the abusive behaviour you wouldn't know before.

Yermina Sun 02-Dec-12 14:42:53

I think it's possible for someone to only show their true colours after a child has been bought into a relationship.

But then it's also the case that women often choose to have children with men they really don't know that well, haven't lived with, and on the basis of zilch evidence that the man in question will make a good father.

Honestly - if you want to reduce your chance of 'gifting' your beloved dc a crap father, then use cast iron contraception, and don't for fuck sake conceive with someone until they've given you good consistent evidence that they have a sense of responsibility and good morals. Oh, and don't have children with someone who hasn't made it absolutely clear that they a) want to be a parent and b) want to stay with you.

quietlysuggests Sun 02-Dec-12 14:47:14

I am another that if you said to me "His Dad is a twat", it would set something off in me, I would be outraged on behalf of the chid and htough I am not rude, I might well lash out with something like Well he was good enough to have a baby with or Why did you hvae a baby with him etc
It would just be me thinking "You stupid bitch you shouldn't slag off your child's parent in public" and trying to get you to shut up.

So YABU and should not air your dirty linen in public.

bradywasmyfavouriteking Sun 02-Dec-12 14:47:15

Surely people only say this AFTER you have told them he is a twat.

People don't just randomly come out with 'why did you have a baby with him' when you haven't said anything about him.

Maybe you should stop moaning about him. I would usually say this question will be said by someone who is fed up of you moaning.

OptimisticPessimist Sun 02-Dec-12 14:48:19

GhostShip this: " I've realised those times I thought were good weren't actually good. They were just considerably better than the bad times." describes it so well! As you say, hindsight is a wonderful thing - I can look back and see it all so clearly now and wonder what I was thinking!

I am happy now, thank you. XP is no longer involved with the children, so it's very hard at times, but I've realised how much I enjoy my own company and I am studying for an OU degree (I gave up a place at uni to stay with my ex - how stupid that seems in hindsight!) I know I would never accept a relationship like that ever again, in fact I love being single and intend to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 14:50:49

I knew a woman who had a baby with a married man. Was going to leave his wife when ... yada yada. And I'm afraid I did ask her this question. Sort of blurted it out without thinking. She'd been with him for years (he was always married.) She said it was their decision. Yeah right.

whois Sun 02-Dec-12 14:54:08

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles yes, that's a good answer

BackforGood Sun 02-Dec-12 14:54:16

Part of the issue is how early a considerable number of people enter into a sexual realtionship with someone, before they've spent time with them, getting to know them well enough in the first place. People talk about getting pregnant accidently but you must be in a sexual relation ship to have that happen, so yes, you are choosing to take that risk, which seems daft to me if you've not spent a long time getting to really know the person.

amicissimma Sun 02-Dec-12 14:55:02

When I was young this seemed to quite a normal question. I probably wouldn't say it now, but I have thought it.

I think it definitely is the business of society outside of the parents as statistic after statistic shows that children who grow up with absent fathers do less well on measures such as education, health, poverty etc, adjusted for other factors, than those with their fathers present. Father-absent children are over-represented in the prison population.

I find it sad to watch single parents struggling. Most do a really good job, but I know that their lives and their children's lives would be so much easier if there were two potential bread-winners, someone to share decisions with, someone to share the childcare, a loving and supportive second adult in the home.

Of course there are lots of people who take care to get into a good relationship before having children and it goes wrong, and there seem to be a number of men who just can't handle their partner's pregnancy and waltz off. And that's really sad, and again, mostly the mums cope fantastically in difficult circumstances.

But, I know people who don't like their OH's friends, or his family and whose friends don't like him, or who haven't known him well enough to find out what his friends and family are like, who get pregnant, and then find that he isn't at all suitable. That's their choice, but it's not the child's choice and I think it's very unfair when parents let the child grow up thinking that half of his/her genetic make-up is bad.

The fact is that every PIV act of sex potentially creates a child. The only way to be certain is not to have sex. That idea seems intolerable these days, but it was reasonable 30-40 years ago. Some people went for years (I think some do these days, but don't admit it!) without sex and didn't seem to suffer some terrible fate. It was certainly a useful test - IME, someone who wouldn't respect his (or her) partner's wish to wait was far less likely to be a considerate and committed partner long-term.

NiniLegsInTheAir Sun 02-Dec-12 14:59:02

Just want to quietly add my 2p worth as this interests me. I'm married to someone who I now consider to be a bit of a twat. We are working on things but long term I don't know for sure what will happen. We dated for 6 years, have lived together for 7 years, got married 3 years ago, DD born 18m ago. He has always been a difficult character but his good points outweighed his bad until I fell pregnant. It was like a light switched on in his head and he totally changed. He's unrecognisable from the man I first met.

It hurts when people ask 'Why did you have a baby with him then?', because I ask myself that every single day. sad

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 15:03:41

This sort of issue highlights where sex education in general, both from parents and schools, is seriously lacking. Too many women seem happy to put up with incredible amounts of shit in a relationship, believing they deserve it, and that it's normal. Where are they getting those ideas from? Women need to be taught from a very young age that the fundamental basis to all relationships is respect and that any man that doesn't show you respect isn't worth your time. Too many women instead seem to be socialised to believe that it is their duty to keep a man happy, to give in to sex, to put up with being shouted at and called names, to put up with being treated like a skivvy and all sorts of other mistreatment. It comes up time and time again on the relationships board - women who otherwise have their heads screwed on accepting treatment a dog wouldn't put up with.

As someone else said, in a lot of cases the question shouldn't be "why did you have a baby with him?" it should be "why are you even in the same room as him after how he's treated you?" I agree that in some cases a person's true colours don't shine through till the woman is pregnant although in those cases I firmly believe there are at least some strong indicators of twattery. No one goes from being genuinely caring and considerate and respectful to being an out and out twat overnight. It just doesn't happen. Women need to be educated on what the warning signs are.

SirBoobAlot Sun 02-Dec-12 15:04:16

Can't believe some of the attitudes here. Really, I'm actually incredibly disappointed in MN right now.

I don't think anyone goes around with the thought of "Right, I'm going to find the most ridiculous knob of a man I can, and get pregnant". Things happen. Isn't it something like 2/3rds of pregnancies are accidental?

Some of you need reality checks.

TeeElfOnTeeShelf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:08:06

No one is saying that, SirBoob. At least I'm not.

What I am saying is every twat I have ever dated, and there have been many in my 43 years on the planet, have shown their twattage long before we started having sex.

I'm not saying I didn't sleep with some of them, I did. We all make mistakes. And, lucky for me, I never got pregnant.

And it's silly to say 'I'm disappointed with MN right now.' Like we're all one person with one brain. There are, literally, a million of us.

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Sun 02-Dec-12 15:10:26

" I firmly believe there are at least some strong indicators of twattery. No one goes from being genuinely caring and considerate and respectful to being an out and out twat overnight. It just doesn't happen. "

i agree with this.

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 15:10:26

Sex doesn't "just happen." Unless it's rape, in which case it's a totally different kettle of fish, a woman chooses to become that intimate with someone. The question is, why are so many women choosing that level of intimacy with someone who has no respect for them?

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Sun 02-Dec-12 15:12:32

I certainly would never ever dis my children's fathers in front of them! Not a chance, my whole reason in life is to raise well adjusted, happy children despite our problems in life.

I do everything I can to enable relationships between them, including travelling in my wheelchair on two trains with my daughter to drop her off with her dad. And paying for his ticket to bring him back.

You can have a poor opinion of your co-parent without inflicting that on your child. It's just an unfortunate accident that I chose to turn to alcohol and sex with a friend in my grief and that one occasion led to a baby. I've taken responsibility for that every step of the way since, and yeah sometimes I get a bit mad that he sat back and did nothing when I was struggling with a disability and a toddler, and then with a child with a behavioural disorder. And I might have a moan about him, especially if he does something else annoying, but that doesn't mean that everything is a disaster and should never have happened.

Fact is, if I hadn't been so stupid, I wouldn't have my DD. And so even when I moan a bit, I am grateful that I have her, and if people think I am stupid or I should shut up or be ashamed or something, that's their prerogative. Personally I had a great big Life Lesson, and since then I have been making massive steps to move forward and change our lives for the better. Albeit unsuccessfully, but hey, I'm doing what I can.

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:17:12

I don't see how 2/3rds of pregnancies can be accidental when the main forms of contraception are well into the 90s for safety if used properly.

expatinscotland Sun 02-Dec-12 15:17:19

I think it but don't ask it and wouldn't.

'What I don't understand is why a woman has one child with a shithead, he treats her and the baby like utter crap, and then she goes on and deliberately has a second, and even a third child with him. It boggles my mind and seems incredibly cruel to carry on bringing children into a terrible relationship.'

This. Or goes from one fuckwit to another, getting accidentally pregnant quite often.

I do think it is startling easy for people to avoid paying support for their children in this country, and it really needs to be addressed.

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Sun 02-Dec-12 15:19:02

Why did you have a baby with him when you knew you would have to keep him in your life for the sake of your child, if he was such knob.?

Perfectly reasonable question to ask, if you are telling people what a knob he was/is.

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:20:16

People do change as well. The man who was one way when he was single can change when children come along. Women too. It's as if we revert to the values of our families of origins. That said, there were red flags galore with my ex but I didn't see it. Or refused to admit to it. I was a needy bag of emotion and mistook his love of drama for a love of me. Never ever again but I wouldn't criticise him anywhere the kids might hear. Strictly between me and friends and MN of course.

BOFingSanta Sun 02-Dec-12 15:20:57

2/3?! Jeez, how depressing.

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:21:39

Treat with respect is a bit too nebulous as a lesson though. And respect is such a bandied about term among people, it doesn't mean a thing most of the time.

TwinkleReturns Sun 02-Dec-12 15:21:51

The word abusive has popped up on this thread a few times. I would just like to slip into the conversation that abuse doesnt start in many relationships until pregnancy because abusive men dont go round yelling "look, I am abusive". They are charismatic and charming until you are in a vulnerable position and for many pregnancy is when the controlling behaviour starts.

So many women that say "he is a twat" didnt know this when they were TTC with a charming and loving man. Some abuse starts 2 months into a relationship, some 2 years and some 20 years. Many women dont wish to discuss the details of their relationship with strangers. So those of you being incredibly judgemental and stating that you can always tell what a man is like if you spend enough time with them clearly have no concept of how abusers operate and are, to some extent, victim blaming. Im really quite saddened at the vast majority of responses on this thread.

cupcakemuncher Sun 02-Dec-12 15:22:07

I'm another one who unfortunately had a baby with a twat, although I would never describe him like that (if pushed I will say that he wasn't very nice to me or that it was a DV relationship, but resorting to insults does me no favours). I will also hold my hand up and say that the behaviour showed itself long, long before I fell pg. I believe that to be the case in most relationships - people show their colours early on, it's just that often, the women in bad relationships have such low self-esteem that they don't believe they can do any better. I've not really heard of any cases where a man was completely reasonable, pleasant, caring and then had an about-face as soon as a child was brought into the relationship. It's just that the women turned a blind eye to the nasty aspects and it wasn't so critical without a baby in the picture.

Anyway, I can sort of understand the comment in the OP, despite having been in that position myself. But I wouldn't make the same mistake again, and I find it astonishing that other women seem to make the same error time and time again - sometimes with the same man, sometimes with a series of them. I'm not ashamed of admitting that I've had terminations to avoid bringing another child in such a situation. Women have that choice for a reason, and there's no point bringing sentimentality into it when you're faced with the choice of being forever tied to a nasty man or being able to walk away from the situation. You don't need to justify your choice to anyone.

I'm also extremely responsible about contraception these days, and continue using the implant as it's the most effective type, despite it having some unpleasant side effects. Because the weight gain, acne, mood swings really aren't as bad as bringing an unplanned child into the world. But you read threads on here all the time about people who don't really want to get pg, yet will only consider the more unreliable types of contraception (and use it badly).

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:22:32

It can't be 2/3. People pretend it was accidental. But that number doesn't match the evidence.

Yermina Sun 02-Dec-12 15:23:08

"Things happen. Isn't it something like 2/3rds of pregnancies are accidental?"

If accidental pregnancies are vastly more common in some social groups than others (they are) then you've got to accept that having children in insecure and dysfunctional relationships is about more than contraception failure.

NotWankinginaWinterWonderland Sun 02-Dec-12 15:23:41

YANU... I cannot even must up anything to argue - shit happens, life happens, some of us are good at decisions some of us have shit lives and try better them, some of us are fucking perfect, I'm not my children have sperm donor.

Pickles77 Sun 02-Dec-12 15:23:52

This thread is ever so sad and judgey it was never going to go well. sad

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:23:57

But isn't the point here that someone says out loud that their father's dad is a knob. And then dislikes the question. Don't talk about your business to people if you don't want comment.

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:24:14

Children's father.

TalkinPeace2 Sun 02-Dec-12 15:24:25

My parents had known each other for 20 years before they brought me into the world.
Nobody was surprised when they split up.
And as I've become older (grown up is too strong a phrase) I've realised how staggeringly immature they both were and are.

DontmindifIdo Sun 02-Dec-12 15:25:07

As I said earlier, it does also seem some woman are rubbish at spotting a decent bloke or a crap twatty one, no one does turn bad overnight, it's just some woman do put up with low level stuff others wouldn't that others see as a sign that he's a twat. It's really hard to learn if you don't have good instincts, or if you've bought into romantic notions of a man changing/growing up for you. Someone said earlier that at the beginning the good outweighed the bad, but for a lot of woman, they wont forgive the bad no matter how good the good is, these woman cant understand why you stayed with someone like that, because anyone who has a good "twat radar" never stays with someone showing crapness just because he also has good moments.

The two sides find it hard to understand each other because the behaviour seems baffling, but rarely are woman in good relationships by chance, normally it's because they rejected the twats early on, it's hard to train yourself to be more aware of twattishness.

SirBoobAlot Sun 02-Dec-12 15:26:29

Well put Twinkle.

TalkinPeace2 Sun 02-Dec-12 15:28:30

I worked with a girl who had her three children taken away for adoption because of paternal violence
she then married a man who beat her up so much she had an emergency hysterectomy at 27
she then remarried the father of the removed children

over many conversations, it became clear that her father beat her up, and that's what she thought love was

NotWankinginaWinterWonderland Sun 02-Dec-12 15:29:06

Twinkle I agree, must be fantastic to never live with an abusive person, or sperm donor, those people mess with your head, big time.

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 15:32:03

nkf - "respect" would have to be explained of course, but for me it covers just about everything that you should absolutely demand, with no exception, from a relationship. I wasn't saying we should just tell young girls "look for respect" and leave it at that, of course it should be elaborated upon, but I think a good touchstone when judging the behaviour of another person is to ask "is it respectful? Does it show a lack of respect?" It also means that you're not looking out for specific behaviours, which is another trap women seem to fall into ("oh it's not so bad, he doesn't hit me, he doesn't sleep around"), you're looking for the tone and the style of how you're treated, which is far more telling. A person might never argue with you, never raise their voice, never call you names or be violent or aggressive, but still show you a consistent lack of respect in hundreds of small ways. IMO if we teach girls early to be on the look out for that the chances they will settle for a twat will lower.

TwinkleReturns Sun 02-Dec-12 15:33:26

Also someone made a point about why women accept abusive behaviour, why do they stay with someone who treats them badly etc.

A lot of women who are in abusive relationships suffered abuse as a child. They have been conditioned through their upbringing to accept abuse and are vulnerable to it. Abusers pick up on this like its a beacon.
Abuse is never as black and white as it reads. We all lose our tempers sometimes, say things we regret etc. Abusive behaviour starts off very very subtly. Its very hard to tell whether it is abusive or whether your partner has had a bad day at work, is depressed, had a bit too much to drink. By the time it reaches a point where its blindingly obvious that its abuse the woman has been worn down, isolated, is controlled to an extent that she has no money, no friends, nowhere to go and no-one to turn to.
Abusive men often sabotage contraception as a pregnant partner is more vulnerable, is less likely to leave (few women want to face single parenthood and the judgey comments on here show why!) and will always be tied to their abuser via the child.

Making comments based on the face value of a relationship is naive. EA is so so common and there is such little awareness about it that most people who say "he is a twat" will be referring to some form of abusive behaviour. 1 in 4 women will experience abuse. Its not the rarity someone upthread suggested but actually incredibly common. Less judgement and more understanding is needed if we are to reduce the numbers of women fallling victim to abuse, and that needs to start here and now with threads like this.

TwinklingWonderland Sun 02-Dec-12 15:38:09

Yanbu. It can be very hard to see you're in a bad relationship when you're in it and sometimes a longing to have children can cloud your judgement on a man.

But for those who are smug and judgemental, though I may have made bad relationship choices, I have worked all my life, never claimed benefits and live to provide a better future for my child.

TheReturnOfBridezilla Sun 02-Dec-12 15:39:34

I fell pregnant accidentally after six months of knowing someone. We are now married and have a second child and I can safely say he is the most wonderful man I've ever known. I congratulate myself hugely for this. grin

Luck of the draw obviously. But anyone who thinks a baby will cement/secure/fix a relationship is sorely mistaken. They usually have the opposite effect in my experience.

I have seen very solid, established couples, together for many years separate after having children. The hard work, the exhaustion, the loss of relationship and identity is crippling to some marriages. I think we made such easy work of it purely because we were still in the honeymoon period when we had children and still plainly adored each other. I honestly think that if we had been together years and the rot had already set in, resentments and boredom etc a baby would have been far more problematic for us as a couple.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 15:40:47

I know a lady who left a relationship during a pregnancy ( actually I know several) but one who springs to mind the dad gave no warning signs none at all, not to his wife of ten years nor his employers nor his friends.

He turned into a abusive twat she left she had good reason to believe he would bet a great dad ( he's a cp social worker) the baby was planned.

Another who had the same thing whose partner of 9 years was a police officer.

As to people having more than one kid with a twat, often in DV situations contraception is controlled by the violent partner after they realise that often the first pregnancy creates a dependency on them its a way for them to market it less easy for the other parent to leave.

nkf Sun 02-Dec-12 15:41:04

Yes, all this about abusive relationships is true but....the OP says her ex is a knob. She's recognised his knobbishness. She tells people that he is a knob. What she doesn't like being asked is why she had the baby with the knob. I think if you can get so far in the recognition of knobbishness, it's not that big a step to start wondering why you didn't recognise before what is so clear now.

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Sun 02-Dec-12 15:42:33

I've reached a point where I've come to accept that I don't know how to have a healthy relationship myself. And have chosen for the time being to stop having them, to let my children grow up a bit without that stress.

I was abused, grew up in a violent alcoholic household and then raped a couple of times. I'm learning very slowly, as a teenager I did absolutely awful things that would have my mother aghast with worry, in my twenties I tried to settle down and messed up with the whole thing to be honest.

When I finally had my daughter, and realised she had nobody but me, that was that point at which I stepped back and though, stop throwing yourself AT life and just live and let life come to you. I'm doing counselling and hopefully the Freedom Programme soon. I've read books about having abusive parents. I read on the forums here. I have a drive to enable my children to grow up happily and safely.

When I have a moan, if people do want to judge that, that's fine. I hate my past and the mistakes I made, but I'm trying to learn from them, so really going over and over why I made the mistake and how bad it is to do that doesn't do anything really, I tend to try to be positive and look forwards, but I'm human and do have a rant occasionally, usually because a child has been upset by and adult man who should know better by now.

lovebunny Sun 02-Dec-12 15:42:47

its a question that has been asked a lot recently. as if you can predict the future. possible answers might include
i loved him at the time
i desperately wanted a baby
my hormones were rife and i had to have a baby right then
he's hot and i insisted he was not leaving
i was drunk and had no idea what he was doing...
and so on.
nobody's business, really.

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 15:45:03

Sock - I find it really hard to believe that a normal caring man could suddenly turn abusive with no warning signs when their partner is pregnant. Surely that points to some mental health problem? I mean can someone's personality really change that dramatically with no warning, unless there is some serious problem going on?

HappyMummyOfOne Sun 02-Dec-12 15:45:29

I'd not say it outloud but I would be thinking it. Its rude to say it.

Accidental pregnancies should be rare given the high success rate of contraception, even more so if you double up on contraception. To say a pregnancy with an unsuitable father is accidental is wrong and sad that so many women are sleeping with that type of man.

I think length of a relationships is a huge point, settling down and waiting x years seems to have gone out of the window. I know somebody who says six months is a serious relationship!

Perhaps many have them to ensure they keep the partner or because they simply want a child. Perhaps its to gain a house or a way of not working.

Dont comment outloud then OP re your ex, besides would you not be worried it would get back to the child or them over hear?

The other day, through work, I met a beautiful couple. Both young, good-looking, charming, friendly, open and sweet. Perfect in every way. I now know that their child was removed because of his violence. I would never have picked him out of a line-up as the type. Unfortunately, I don't think she did either. Some abusive men are incredibly good at hiding their true colours until it is too late. Poor woman, poor child. She has chosen not to leave him, i don't know why. I wouldn't presume to ask. Possibly she's scared, possibly she thinks he will be a good father.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 15:51:57

He may not have been a knob until she was past 24 weeks pregnant.

Also n my experance. It's fairly unusual to be that open about personal stuff in day to day life it would mainly be close friends or family not a unreasonable group to be venting to or looking for support.so asking that question would be inappropriate

Or doing the same thing on a forum you believe to be anonymous for the same reason so all in all responding like that in the context that the op is talking about as obviously its different if you've been asked why you would say it ect, is really unkind.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 16:09:54

.dana nope just fairly standard typical abusive person behaviour. And yes behaviour can change with or without a mental health condition some people are just arseholes but perfectly mentally healthy.

Behaviour is different to personality one can be used to cover up another,the main basis to be able to abuse a person is to be manipulative this includes manipulating the people around you into thinking your a decent none arse hole type person.

As well as isolation a pregnancy can be the easiest excuse in the world to start isolating your perspective victim whilst looking like you are showing acceptable concern " darling I'm very worried something bad will happen to the baby if you do xyz go to xyz" sounds caring until you realise you have done nothing alone and seen none of your friends or family for months and feel like you have nobody to turn to.

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 16:14:47

I suppose, Sock, although I'm still not convinced that a person will become abusive just out of the blue like that without their partner ever realising it before. I see what you mean about covering up your true personality with behaviour but is it really possible for someone to completely hide their real self for years and years, day after day? Surely some aspect of their nasty side comes out now and again?

flow4 Sun 02-Dec-12 16:22:53

People who ask this question lack a bit of imagination and empathy. There are loads of reasons why a woman may have had a baby with a twat...

- Youth and inexperience - not recognising a twat when she sees one ( "Aww, he's sooo sweet - I just love the way he doesn't take life seriously!" )
- Naivety, gullibility and/or hope ( "He'll change and stop being a twat because he loves me" )
- Low self-esteem ( "I only deserve a twat" )
- Lack or choice (real or perceived) ( "All men are twats. This one is no worse than average" or "There are only two men on my island - this one's the least twattish" )
- Escaping childhood abuse ( "He's not as much of a twat as my dad" )
- Escaping another difficult situation ( "He's a twat, but at least he'll get me out of here" )
- Finding needs and tolerance levels change once they become parents ( "Partying every weekend was fine before we had the baby, but now I need him to help, not sleep all day Sunday" )
- Unlucky type 1 - finding a man turns into a twat when he becomes a father ( "He's worse than the children!" )
- Unlucky type 2 - Major twattery - eg. domestic violence - often only begins with pregnancy ( "He never hit me til I was pregnant" )
- Unlucky type 3 - finding a man who makes a good father but a bad partner ( "He's great with the kids, but he just doesn't seem to care about me any more" ... And unless we're regressing to 1950s social morality, women surely are within their rights to cut their losses at some point)
- And shock a lot of women get pregnant accidentally...

By the way, before anyone hoiks up their judgy-pants at that last point, be aware that estimates suggest that 40-50% of pregnancies are unplanned and half of those occurred while women were using contraception shock.

flow4 Sun 02-Dec-12 16:26:06

Dana, 30% of DV starts during pregnancy sad
Lots of info here

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 16:27:13

How many people have never done anything even mildly wrong or odd in the context of a relationship,

How many have never had a minor disagreement.

It's only when extreme stuff happens like serious wrong doings or arguments or violence that these minor things even get considered to be red flags and if the serious stuff hadn't happened they most certainly wouldn't have been flags.

Think how many women are floored when they find out there loving supportive dh's have had an affair and they has no idea at all neither did friends or family it happens loads

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 16:37:37

I'm aware that DV can start in pregnancy, but what I'm saying is that pre-DV there are surely some red flags that could be spotted? Maybe I'm being totally naive. It's just that with the few abusive relationships I've seen among my friends (and these were low-level abuse, never violence) it always seem obvious to me, looking as an outsider, that the abusive partner was a twat, right from the start. I just don't see it happening that a perfectly stable, lovely person will suddenly start beating their partner during pregnancy. There must be some indication previous to that that the abusive person wasn't quite right.

Again I think it comes down to respect in some ways. I mean, I would never ever put up with being called names. Never. Yet it's clear that a lot of women do. Perhaps being called names is not a red flag for some women - they need something more extreme like actual violence or definite aggression to get the signal that things aren't right? And again, that begs the question, why are women putting up with that? Why are their standards so low?

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 16:59:13

I knew my ex husband was a monster from very early on, although it started off low level and escalated. The problem was I didn't have the ability (mental or physical) to get myself out of that situation. I was completely out of my depth. Survival depended on keeping him happy and that included having a baby. Protecting my baby was then the catalyst that got me out.

I don't talk about him, mention him or what happened with anyone. Ever. Despite years of therapy for PTSD. I was later diagnosed with ASD, if that has any bearing on the judgment being dished out in this thread sad

TwinkleReturns Sun 02-Dec-12 17:02:07

Cailin there are red flags that you cant be sure are red flags - he lost his temper last week but I know he had a big deadline coming up at work, Ive been ill and the house is a tip - that could be a red flag or it could be a person with normal emotions. Yes they do hide their abusive traits. Thats how hundreds of us end up in relationships that started off like any other but ended up abusive.

In fact abusers are the sort of men who seem overly lovely for the first few weeks/years - the ones that say I love you early on, who put a lot of effort into romatic gestures. They have to be good at the "nice" to draw you in, otherwise they wouldnt be able to hook so many women in.

The name calling didnt start for me for 4 years. Its not like from the beginning of the relationship he was lovely but called me names all the time because no one would put up with that. Equally for some women name calling and controlling behaviour is the worst abuse in their relationship. Not all abuse is physical. Its the frog in boiled water analagy; if you drop a frog in boiling water it will jump back out. So if at the start of a relationship a man called you a "bitch" or accused you of eyeing up all the men in the restaurant, or groped you, or threw you against a wall you would run a mile. It usually starts off with control for eg he might start calling you a lot but he will explain that after that article in the news the other day where a women was mugged locally he is just looking out for you. Then he will start coming to pick you up straight from work - he wants to save you having to catch a bus. Then he might start having all the bills go from his account and not the joint account - well he's saving you the hassle of dealing with it. Slowly slowly the water goes from cold to warm and froggy doesnt notice so doesnt jump out. Name calling is blatant and obvious abuse and so isnt normally a feature of an abusive relationship until the water has become quite warm.

So its not as simple as saying "I would never accept being called names" because it doesnt start like that. By the time it reaches a point where name calling is happening, physical and sexual abuse isnt far off, financial and emotional abuse have very likely already been established for months or even years.

HairyGrotter Sun 02-Dec-12 17:04:52

I'm a lone parent, the father of my child has never met her (well, has walked past her and looked her in the eye), and is a major muncher of dickishness, however, my pregnancy was an accident.

I am guilty of 'thinking' it with some people. If they didn't moan about their situation, I wouldn't think anything of it, but it is when someone moans and moans about it, has had multiple children by the 'dickhead' and insists on having the 'dickhead' involved in their child's life because 'all kids need a father/mother', my inner voice is all over that shit. I'm gonna judge, inwardly, but judge all the same. Soooowwwy

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 17:08:27

Just because there are lots of reasons doesn't mean they are good ones.

As for ^- And a lot of women get pregnant accidentally...

By the way, before anyone hoiks up their judgy-pants at that last point, be aware that estimates suggest that 40-50% of pregnancies are unplanned and half of those occurred while women were using contraception^

So half of them weren't using contraception, and a good percentage of the other half weren't using it properly.

I don't care why anyone had a baby with anyone else, or how. But you need to own your own decisions, it's not anyone elses fault.

NotWankinginaWinterWonderland Sun 02-Dec-12 17:09:39

I was my ex thing for 15 years, I had to dc with THAT, I used to cry a lot about having a child abuse me, I don't anymore, I do cry at bringing 2 dc into this mess, where was my head? Oh yeah that's right I was being abused, but why bring the dc into the relationship?? Even my support worker can answer that line but I have PTSD so I do what works best Iblock it all out...

TeaBrick Sun 02-Dec-12 17:10:05

Here, here TwinkleReturns I suppose it must be comforting for people who have never experienced abuse to believe that it will never happen to them as they are too clever and would get out at the first hint of anything, however as I and many other rational, intelligent women know, it's never that simple.

NotWankinginaWinterWonderland Sun 02-Dec-12 17:10:12

two sorry I get angry with myself often

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 17:13:07

I don't think this thread is that judgey as most people (if not all tbh) are saying they might think it in some situaitons but they wouldn't say it

We all think things - most people have the manners not to say it

SnowWhiterThenWhite Sun 02-Dec-12 17:14:03

I assure you I have never 'Shagged random tossers' I clearly didn't know my ex was gay or I wouldn't have slept with him. Also I was 16. Not exactly a world of knowledge at that point. I actually can't believe some of the people on here.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 17:17:14

I have "shagged random tossers". It's how I spent my teens and early 20s

I was just lucky enough not to get pregnant by any of them

TwinkleReturns Sun 02-Dec-12 17:17:40

It saddens me Teabrick. There is still so little understanding about abuse and so much assumption.

McChristmasPants2012 Sun 02-Dec-12 17:23:20

Unfortunately twats don't come with a neon sign and when friends/family voice concerns the twat uses emotional abuse to say things like they are jealous what we have is special ect.

TheReturnOfBridezilla Sun 02-Dec-12 17:31:29

Catgirl Precisely my situation grin.

SackGirl Sun 02-Dec-12 17:34:25

I think that you can have a baby with someone and not realise what a knob they are until after - So the question is redundant to be honest

BobblyGussets Sun 02-Dec-12 17:38:03

I do think it, but, and it's a big but: what to do to sort it and not be victim blaming? That is the hardest thing to put right. We don't want to make women with low self esteem, who made bad choices to become paraihs do we? Someone else refered to the fact that there is evidence that unfathered children don't do as well in life. How to help? How to stop this? They are already marginalised in society.

People with low self esteem need other options worth taking, rather than being knocked up by a twat seeming like a good option.

I don't know how to solve it. I think it and therefore I am guilty on some level of victim blaming, but we do need to invest in young people and give them options.

BobblyGussets Sun 02-Dec-12 18:07:04

FFS Did I kill another thread ?[Hmm]

Lia87 Sun 02-Dec-12 18:16:58

Yanbu at all. I've never been asked it in real life just on here.. Its ridiculous that people think they can have a go at you for having a child. No doubt they'd judge just as much if you aborted a child just because of its father being a knob so you can't win either way!

Also people change. The dad may not have seemed like a knob from the start, how do you think domestic violence begins. Anyone having that attitude surely should also judge anyone who has a divorce for having a child with someone not perfectly matched to them.

its such a stupid naive reason to look down on mums. Cant imagine you'd ever hear 'how stupid of you to have a child with her' said to a single full time dad either, sure most would just say he was good for sticking around and doing it on his own.

akaemmafrost Sun 02-Dec-12 18:19:35

My ex was an amazing DH and father right up until I was about five months pregnant. Then he turned into an absolute arse and it came from nowhere. Coincided with him meeting and starting an affair with a girl he worked with. So there you go.

happybubblebrain Sun 02-Dec-12 18:23:10

It's not our fault we are brainwashed is it?

Leafmould Sun 02-Dec-12 18:32:33

If someone is being judgemental about their ex, calling him a knob, I would think, Cor this is a judgemental person, where was this skill in judging people at the start of the relationship?

To condemn your ex in such a judgmental fashion does beg the question, well what happened to change your opinion of him?

If you don't want further questions about the relationship, don't talk about the ex in such a judgemental way.

There are many ways to talk about our exes which give enough information to the person you are talking to, so that they are not left wondering what went wrong?

hatesponge Sun 02-Dec-12 18:36:08


There are some wonderfully judgy and holier than thou attitudes on this thread, if these are a typical snapshot of RL then it's not surprising (though it is disappointing) that people get asked this stuff.

Just to clear up a misconception: you CAN'T always spot a potential abuser. It's lovely and reassuring to think you would definitely be able to, but it isn't possible. Maybe in a few cases but not most.

When I met my Ex, he was mid-30s, skilled tradesman with a stable occupation, good group of friends (who in the main had long term partners). He only drank socially, didn't smoke, had never done drugs. He was generous and kind - always paid for drinks/food when we went out, bought a present for my friend who babysat my DS when we went out.

Apart from one brief row where he made me cry 4 months into our relationship (not long after I found out I was pregnant), everything was fine, and we were very happy.

It wasn't until we bought a house together over a year later that he showed his true colours. Within a week of moving in, he smashed up all my pictures, and punched a hole through the (glass) door. It escalated from there to emotional and physical abuse.

I honestly don't think it was possible to see it coming, certainly not prior to my pregnancy. He has to my certain knowledge, never abused a previous partner, or the gfs he's had since me. My bad luck, I guess.

The only thing I can say is that although I always wanted a 3rd child, I wouldn't/couldn't have one with him. I didn't want to be any more tied to him than I already was, or make it any more difficult for myself to leave him. I suppose though that if you still had the hope someone would change, you might want to give them the benefit of the doubt and have another baby. I never believed my Ex change though.

AThingInYourLife Sun 02-Dec-12 18:37:31

" And no-one should be having babies knowing that they can't afford them without state assistance."


That's almost all the babies!

Mintyy Sun 02-Dec-12 18:39:18

I would never say it, never out loud or on this forum. But it is a legitimate question in some circumstances.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 18:42:52

Leafmould. Perhaps the partner totally out of the blue threw them out of a moving car whilst they were 34 weeks pregnant, perhaps he threatened to kill her, perhaps he punched her in the face or kicked her or pushed her down the stairs or grabbed her round the throat, perhaps he slept with another woman or threatened the baby.

All thins that are perfectly acceptable to judge someone else for none things that the average abuser will admit to whilst trying to impress you.

NonnoMum Sun 02-Dec-12 18:46:35

Maybe young western women have sold themselves short and are willing to sleep with foolish unsuitable partners far too readily and risk unplanned pregnancies fathered by idiots?

Maybe it's a good idea to get to know someone before sleeping with them?

Just a thought.

superstarheartbreaker Sun 02-Dec-12 18:48:02

If any of you have read the Lundy Bancroft book 'Why does he do that?' then you will realise that it is far harder to leave an abusive twat due to traumatic bonding/stokholm syndrome. I had a baby with my twat ex because I thought he would commit if we did as he kept banging on about kids. I did really want a baby too and was sooo broody. Looking back I was incredibly foolish as who would want to stay with a twat? I now realise that was incredibly lonely and desperate to have a family. He isn't in the picture so dd is being brought up without conflict. I do feel for her not knowing her dad and I vow not to have any more children until I am more sorted; if at all but fgs people have babies for many reasons. However without said twat I would not have my amazing and georgeous dd so he did give me an amazing gift.

Leafmould Sun 02-Dec-12 18:49:57


I'm not saying that we should not judge people for appalling behaviour. I'm saying that once you have done what you need to do to be safe and well, and are talking about it with an acquaintance, you need to decide what you want to share with them. If you want to be open, then tell people it was a case of out of the blue domestic violence. If we heard people talking about it perhaps we would be less hmm about it. Or if you can't, for what ever reason, say 'our ways parted', or something fairly bland. There are lots of people on this thread complaining about judgementalism. If you don't want to be Asked judgemental questions, don't invite them by making judgemental comment about your ex, unless you are ready to explain them.

Lia87 Sun 02-Dec-12 18:57:32

Leafmould, i can't think of a situation where 'my ex is a knob' would be said without at least some backstory or reasoning being given, if not i'm sure they'd expand on it if politely asked..

And the point they 'become' a knob is most likely when they stop putting an act on.
I doubt anyone is completely themselves when they first meet someone

their bad side gradually comes out, be that being impatient, bad with money, or something small, or something much bigger making them an unfit parent. this other side is bound to be much worse in some people than others

Leafmould Sun 02-Dec-12 19:03:16

Yes, Lisa,it would make sense to say 'my ex is a knob' with a certain amount of backstory. However that is not explicit in the op. I confess I have not read all 156 messages here. Does op clarify this? Because If there was even the briefest explanation given, I'm sure they would be far fewer 'well why did you....' questions asked.

Lia87 Sun 02-Dec-12 19:03:28

Nonoomum for a start its not just young or western girls with unplanned pregnancys.
And are you saying there's no longterm relationships with unfit fathers? Or no divorced dads who dont want anything to do with their children?

Lia87 Sun 02-Dec-12 19:08:48

Leaf-not sure as i haven't read them all either, but i've had that exact comment made without even calling him a knob. I explained his behaviour and have had (not many, but some) responses such as 'why did you have a baby with a dickhead'

flow4 Sun 02-Dec-12 19:10:20

Leafmould > "If we heard people talking about it perhaps we would be less hmm about it".

That's a fair point, actually. DV is still taboo, and people who have experienced it don't tend to talk much about it. If they did, perhaps there would not be such ignorance. But one of the reasons they don't is that there is often such judgement: people saying (or thinking) "Why didn't you leave him sooner?" or "What did you see in him?" or "Why did you have a baby with him then?" So it becomes a bit of a vicious circle.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sun 02-Dec-12 19:12:29

The only time I've ever heard this question being asked is on The Jeremy Kyle show.

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 19:12:37

Leafmould I'm not sure if its completely clear but no I don't just say 'he Is a knob' to people and leave it at that. It is in the context of a conversation. And no not with completely random people as has been suggested...who does that?

I'm not even going to comment on all the people looking down their noses at me this thread has made me incredibly sad.

pingu2209 Sun 02-Dec-12 19:16:25

It is when a woman has a baby with a rubbish man who was obviously rubbish to everyone else. Then that same woman has another baby with another rubbish man, who everyone can see is rubbish but yet again it is a surprise to her. Then that same woman has another baby with another rubbish man.....

One is a mistake, two or more is just stupid.

LynetteScavo Sun 02-Dec-12 19:18:35

I am sick and tired of hearing "it's a conscious decision to have a baby...." on MN this weekend.

Is it really?

Does contraception work 100% of the time?

Just because abortion is legal in the UK, does it mean women should have an abortion?

I am in a great marriage, and have three brilliant DC with my DH. Only two of whom were planned. So don't give me "it's a choice to have children". I'm just lucky that I'm in a stable relationship with someone who earns enough money to support us all. If I wasn't things would be very different......

If you want links I'll give you bloody links to teenage girls, older women and everyone in between who have children they didn't plan to.

messtins Sun 02-Dec-12 19:20:32

Wouldn't say it but of course have thought it. Can't understand why you would not establish a man was not a twat before having sex with him.....

CailinDana Sun 02-Dec-12 19:20:35

The point I made Lynette is that it is conscious decision to have sex (except in the case of rape) and what I wonder is why so many women have sex with men who have no respect for them.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 19:22:01

You choose to have sex
You choose who to have sex with
You choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy

I believe the decision to have a baby is just that, a decision for the majority of women in the UK. Which is a good thing.

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 19:24:27

Of course it doesn't mean you should have an abortion. But how can you say it isn't your choice whether you do or not?
You choose not to have an abortion, therefore you have made the decision to have a baby.

WhatDoesTheDogSay Sun 02-Dec-12 19:26:18

What Lynette said. Life is far from as black and white as some people seem to think, particularly for someone in an abusive relationship. YANBU.

hatesponge Sun 02-Dec-12 19:29:53

How difficult is it to understand that in a lot (quite possibly most) cases, abusive men don't show their true colours until well after a child is conceived, often after it is born.

What precisely should those women have done? Been able to see into the future? hmm

hatesponge Sun 02-Dec-12 19:30:32

often not until after it is born.

TheReturnOfBridezilla Sun 02-Dec-12 19:30:48

When I was young and good looking (!) I was attracted to other young, good looking people. Probably none of them would have made good fathers but that was the last thing I was looking for at the time (being in uni/working crazy hours/saving for a house etc) which is why I used contraception when I had sex. People get caught short all the time though. I guess the answer is never to have sex with anyone you wouldn't want to marry and have a family with. But that wouldn't really have appealed to early twenties me!

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 19:32:30

It's not hard at all

I think nearly everyone on this thread has made the distinction that where twatishness was not evident pre-conception they would not think "why did you"...only where it was.

I also think everyone has made the distincition between general twatishness and abusiveness

FrillyMilly Sun 02-Dec-12 19:43:16

Part Iof me would think why did you have a baby with him but then part of me knows what it's like to have a knob for a father and be the unplanned reason your parents got married. It's easy for me, someone who is very strong willed and confident, to think 'mum why did you marry, have more children with dad' but they were encouraged to marry when she was pregnant, my mum didn't always work and when she did earned significantly less. I suppose there wasn't the ability to be a single parent as easily as it is now if that makes sense, the benefits system was just family allowance. It eventually took her 15 years to end the relationship.

I can see both sides.

FestiveDigestive Sun 02-Dec-12 19:56:29

Have I missed something? Did the OP come back and say her ex was abusive and that is why she describes him as a knob?

There are a lot of people (male & female) around who are really horrible about their ex-partners when there was no abuse in the relationship.

I think the issue is about TELLING people that her ex is a knob & then being annoyed when they ask questions. They must be people she doesn't know well or they would already know about the ex-knob themselves.

LynetteScavo Sun 02-Dec-12 20:02:29

I have had sex with a lot of people, who while they have great qualities, I would not want to have a child/lifelong bond with them. Luckily I never became pregnant by them. If I had, I would not have wanted to have an abortion. It's my right not to want to terminate my pregnancy, even though it's legal. So I would have had a child.... because of a drunken "fumble" during my earliy 20's.

Now, most men I had sex with were actually very decent people, and while we would never have tried setting up our lives together, I think they would have offered what they could towards being a father. So when I see single mothers having to deal with twatish exes I don't feel smug, and think "well, don't have sex without someone you've been married to for years if you don't want to end up dealing with this crap". I think "there for the grace of God go I".

For all those who think otherwise, I presume you didn't have sex until your wedding night, and would have an abortion if you thought for one moment the father of your child might be a twat.

simplesusan Sun 02-Dec-12 20:02:41

I don't really think it when a woman has a child or even children to one man. I do think it though when she keeps on repeating the mistake and keeps having children to different fathers, especially if there is a small gap between conception.
Once bitten twice shy is the sentiment.

simplesusan Sun 02-Dec-12 20:03:49

The small gap refers to the length of time taken to get pregnant to yet another loser.

MarianneM Sun 02-Dec-12 20:03:58

I asked that question on another thread, and I do wonder.

I wouldn't advocate abortion, but in the words of another poster here:

"happened to sleep with a twat" - really?

I wouldn't sleep with a twat, let alone without contraception.

And we may not have crystal balls, but I would think that as you get to know a person (before having a baby presumably) there may be some giveaways as to their character.

flow4 Sun 02-Dec-12 20:04:33

> Applauds LynetteS <

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 20:07:18

Lynette thanks

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 20:07:48

If I got pregnant by someon I thought was a twat and would be a poor father I would have an abortion

That's my personal choice based on my personal beliefs

If someone else in the same situation chose to keep the baby, that would be their personal choice.

But choice is the operative word here and they would have chosen to have a child, fathered by a man they believed to be a twat.

MarianneM Sun 02-Dec-12 20:12:59

I agree with you catgirl, and having unprotected sex (with a twat) is also a choice.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 20:16:49

It is

Not one I make anymore luckily although it happened a few times in my younger days. I only have sex with DH now and he is of limited twatishness

Luckily I didn't get pregnant on any of the occassions above but if I had I would have chosen not to go ahead with the pregnancy

suburbophobe Sun 02-Dec-12 20:20:43

As a LP I sometimes REALLY wonder "Why the F* would you stay with him?!"

(And no, mine was not a "twat" - but I would never stay in a relationship that was not the best for all of us).

Single motherhood while hard is so much better than being with a "twat" that brings you down!

NonnoMum Sun 02-Dec-12 20:20:43

So it looks like our choices are...

Choose not to sleep with a man unless you KNOW he is not an idiot..
Choose not to continue a pregnancy with a man who is an idiot...
Choose to have a baby by (not with) a man who is an idiot but expect nothing from him nor him to have any relationship/input/support of the child...

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 20:26:11

People can choose anything they want

And if you don't find out he's an idiot until after you are pg / had the baby you can't do much about it (except LTB)

But if you knew before hand then people might wonder why you had a baby with them (though would be very rude to ask IMO)

I do think it's a choice to have a baby though in most cases and it is certainly a "conscious decision" in the majority of cases.

MarianneM Sun 02-Dec-12 20:31:04

Nonno, or choose to use contraception.

NonnoMum Sun 02-Dec-12 20:41:29

Sure, Marianne but I was going with the incidences of contraception failure... But, of course, yes.

Mumsyblouse Sun 02-Dec-12 20:46:31

I think people underestimate how much some women want children, even by twats. I have a good friend who, in her own words, had children with a 'complete knob' and she is the first to admit that when she had her second, she knew he was a knob, and he was even on his way out of the door but she wanted a second child and to have her children close together with the same father. She still thinks he's a twat, but if it was have children with a twat, or not have that second child, she preferred to have a child. She chose this course of events, because the alternative, to only have one child, wasn't her preferred option.

So, I don't ask her why she had two children with a knob as I know the reason, though I think she should hide her distate for this man better, the children have very conflicted feelings about their dad unfortunately, as he may have been a twat towards her, but he wants to be a dad and she does impede that.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 02-Dec-12 20:48:50

Sometimes they are only massive twats after you have left them, they may turn out to be not suited to you for what ever reason,you only discover this say 10 years in so you part company thinking that they will remain fairly ok but then get bitten by the giant twat bug.

Sometimes there are flags or indicators of someone being a twat but often there are not.

People become your ex for a reason if they were wonderful decent people chances are you would still be togather its very very silly to think you know the whys surrounding this when it involves the relationship of a person who is not you.

JockTamsonsBairns Sun 02-Dec-12 20:59:50

This thread has really got to me. It smacks of victim blaming, and shows a distinct lack of understanding of the cycle of abuse which can go on in some relationships.
Also, some twats can be wonderful some of the time, just like some wonderful men can be twats some of the time. It can be hard to recognise the tipping point, particularly for someone with low self esteem.

I don't think it's a particularly helpful question, given the number of possible complex answers to it.

Festivedidi Sun 02-Dec-12 21:09:02

Dd1's father is a twat. I didn't realise that until I was pg, and left as soon as he "suggested" an abortion. He has never met her, she has had limited interest in him but I have answered all of her questions honestly but kindly (ie I have never told her that he is a twat, but I have told her that he was very young and wasn't ready for the responsibility of fatherhood). She was most definitely an accidental pregnancy as I was on the pill (but medication for an unrelated condition was later found to affect the effectiveness of that particular pill) and we were using condoms.

My sister was married to a twat and had 2 children with him. The first was unplanned (same medication I was on affecting the pill) and she was the reason they got married, then the second was planned even though she already realised he was a twat, because she wanted a second child and has been told that for health reasons she should have her children early. So she had the second child and left him soon after.

Neither of us have ever been asked why we had kids with the twats though, possibly because we have polite friends and family, possibly because we don't publicly bad-mouth the twats that fathered our children.

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 21:16:27

Since when is every single relationship with a twat about abuse, and since when is every woman a victim? This profferred notion that babies just happen to women, nothing is our own fault or responsibility is depressing at best.

SomersetONeil Sun 02-Dec-12 21:27:46

I admit, I have thought it. Quite often probably. blush Not in real life since I don't think I really know anyone in this position. But on here I've thought it, certainly.

However, this thread has gone a long way to re-educate me.

As I've got older and wiser, and certainly the more time I've spent on forums and 'socialise' with people outside my usual circle/type of people, the more I've become aware of my own privilege.

Which is... a happy childhood with loving parents and a resulting very healthy self-esteem. I know I am naive, but as I've gotten older, I have come to realise how rare that actually is. I've been fortunate enough to only have relationships with nice men. In fact, at the grand age of 38 I've never been dumped and never had my heart broken. I mean, I had enough random shags in my twenties with what might have been not lovely men, but I was happy to leave it at just the shag, so never got embroiled in any nastiness.

So - it's easy for me to wonder why others get it so wrong, when I've never had any experience of awfulness or had my self-esteem beaten to a complete pulp.

Plus - at the end of the day, the problem really boils down to idiotic men and women picking up the pieces in their aftermath. Trying to do their best, do the job of two people, etc, etc. They're the ones left, literally, holding the baby. They really don't deserve the judginess. The twattish men who bugger off, responsibility-free, do. So it's a really dangerous path to go down, blaming the women. Or, at best, frowning on them and their choices - when they're doing their best, and it's the man who's been the total arse.

Thanks for starting this thread, OP - I'm a bit embarrassed to admit how often I've thought this to myself, and it's helped me to re-think things quite a bit.

TheNebulousBoojum Sun 02-Dec-12 21:28:00

Victim blaming?
The victims of these situations I usually encounter are under 11 and completely without any sort of control or power over their situation. They frequently have no one who listens to what they are afraid of, or how they feel and are subject to horrendous emotional abuse, sometimes more.

GreenBeer Sun 02-Dec-12 21:30:19

There just seems to be so many children born to twats these days...

A lady I know in her mid 30's has 4 children to 3 dfferent guys, surely her twat-a-meter needs fixing smile

happybubblebrain Sun 02-Dec-12 21:31:48

The message to all women should be:

If you can possibly avoid all sexual contact with all men for the rest of your life, then DO. The odds are that you will be sleeping with a knob (approximately 30% of men), or at least a bit of a knob (approximately 69% of men) and if you get pregnant by that knob people will blame you for it. And if you haven't realised that your man is a knob yet, then you are most likely being manipulated, or very very lucky (approximately 1% chance).

SantaIAmSoFuckingRock Sun 02-Dec-12 21:37:51

i think the message to all should be

"dont be a fucking twat"

DrCoconut Sun 02-Dec-12 21:43:27

My relationship with my abusive and twattish ex was very complicated, by the time I realised what was oin on and had the strength to leave I had DS1. Ex has never seen him since the split or paid CSA and I have left it all well alone. DS1 was the making of me. I picked up my crumbs and made a life for him, and sorted out my own life in the process. I now have a normal DH and DS2 as well. Life is boring and predictable, just the way I want after the continuous drama and stress with ex.

DrCoconut Sun 02-Dec-12 21:46:25

The g on my laptop is dodgy, so "oin" is actually "going"!

Well, I've fucked a lot of twats in my time.
It was great fun!

Honestly can't believe that some here are advocating that you should keep yer knickers on unless you're sure that your partner will make a great husband and father.

People change, situations change and sometimes us less than perfect human beings make mistakes or bad choices.

Be careful those of you judging with your "perfect" lives. Pride comes before a fall' n all that.

inadreamworld Sun 02-Dec-12 21:57:38

Anyone can make a mistake and no YANBU. Some people just pick the wrong guy, not because they are stupid but due to bad luck or him not showing true colours until later. I would feel sorry for someone who had chosen a knob as the father of their child and certainly not judge them.

MissCellania Sun 02-Dec-12 21:58:21

I doubt anyone here has a perfect life, and I don't think having children with a non-twat is much to be proud of, surely that should be the minimum to be looked for.

happybubblebrain Sun 02-Dec-12 22:04:32

I think my point was missed.
Keep your knickers on is good advice - until people stop blaming women for men being knobs.

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Sun 02-Dec-12 22:14:45

I made a concious decision to keep my baby, not to conceive her.

That happened on a drunken night when I was seeking comfort in wine and someone's bed I guess. I used condoms, I was unlucky, I couldn't make the choice to abort, not when the reason I was so upset was losing two close family members so closely together, there was too much grief in my life already.

I figured that if I was big enough to go out and make a baby, then I was big enough to face up to the consequences and deal with it. Her dad didn't. Got away with doing nothing for two and a half years, then with no contact until recently. Now I take her and drop her at the door as it's the only way she gets to see him and her sisters, she loves her dad and his family, so I'll continue doing that if it's the only way. In private I think he's an immature tosser who has prioritised his own self over his child for a long time, but I'm still willing to encourage a relationship because he does love her and it took me a long time to grow up, so I'm not going to hold it against him unless he upsets my baby, so far so good, he is well warned.

And now in some ways believe my baby was meant to be, because she was the thing that really smacked some common sense into me. And I mean steam rollered. And holy cow when I woke up I'd dug myself into a deep deep hole, and I'm still looking up thinking HTF do I climb up there! But I've made what we do have full of love, happy moments and education.

And when I do climb out I'm not going to cover it over and hide that hole and be embarrassed, people can make mistakes and learn from them. If I can share my experience and show someone that great big whole I dug for myself, and help them to avoid that in any way, then I'm happy with that.

Nobody taught me what abuse was, nobody showed me how to have self esteem. I'm not making excuses, but when I look back at myself, I look back at someone who started off knowing nothing and having a very bad life experience to model my own self on, I thought a man would fix that for me. I learned that actually most of them will just take what you have, and some of them won't even ask nicely. Then I thought playing at grown ups would fix that for me, if I pretended it would become real, but I was still dysfunctional and I ended up on my own with my two babies before I saw life properly and realised only I can fix it for me. And first I have to make sure my children don't start off badly, to minimise the impact my mistakes will have on them, because starting off disadvantaged makes for a long learning curve with some unpleasant moments.

So if people want to judge me, do feel free. What they think isn't really going to impact on me any more than I already managed myself, just don't get all stuck up in the negative, because that's a poor way to live life, and our children model themselves on what they see. I'd rather teach them to see the good, to offer a hand out to people, to strive to achieve, to know that where we come from does not always define us, but how we choose to act does.

catgirl1976geesealaying Sun 02-Dec-12 22:20:48

Doesn't sounds like you had a baby with a twat, rabbit

Sounds like you had a baby on your own

(and it /you/ her sound lovely)

toomuchmonthatendofthemoney Sun 02-Dec-12 22:25:25

Applauds rabbits, very moving post <sniffs> your dd is a lucky girl

AnneNonimous Sun 02-Dec-12 22:27:28

That was a brilliant post. Bit in love with you rabbits thanks

Lia87 Sun 02-Dec-12 22:29:41

Rabbit, you sound like you've coped amazingly with some hard choices and not as much support as a lot of mums have, i can't see how anybody could judge you for any of that!

yes, great post rabbits

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Sun 02-Dec-12 22:31:29

Yeah I was mostly on my own. He washed his hands of "it" when I was seven weeks pregnant. I had a toddler too, just under two at this point.

I'd gone out and gotten a job, but unfortunately it was only another few weeks before my mobility started to decline. Spent the majority of my pregnancy in a wheelchair. Several hospital visits for complications, rheumatology referral, turns out I've got an inflammatory joint disease, which is an auto immune disease that attacks my joints.

Things have been up and down. I'm not perfect. But I am also not afraid to admit that. I get things wrong. Loads. But I like to think I get at least as many things right too.

Mumsnet was a big turning point, when I read about DV and abuse, and the Stately Homes thread, about familial abuse. And there are people here who are in worse of situations than I am, who reach out and hold my hand when I need it. If they can do that, then I humbly like to think that maybe I could some day too help someone when they need it. So I won't be ashamed and people can judge. Hell, I might even agree with them, the person I was four years ago is not the person I am now. But don't get stuck in that. I'm moving forwards, onwards and upwards, not so I can look down on people you see, so that maybe when I get up there, I can give them a hand up too.

flow4 Sun 02-Dec-12 22:33:52

That is a very nice observation catgirl. smile I think a lot of us find ourselves in pretty much this situation.

One of the tricky things to get your head round when you have had a baby with a twat (IME) is that if you love the child, you can't ever really regret meeting the twat. Even though he is a twat. hmm grin

flow4 Sun 02-Dec-12 22:35:45

> Cheers Rabbits <

SirBoobAlot Sun 02-Dec-12 22:49:00

<hugs Rabbit>

Know where you are coming from. Much love to you - sounds like you've held up wonderfully.

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Mon 03-Dec-12 22:14:24

I killed the thread, I am sorry. sad

Bogeyface Mon 03-Dec-12 22:24:21

The man you marry and the man you share a marriage with can be 2 different people.

You can marry (or live with, go out with, shag....whatever) the perfect man. He is kind, funny, generous, loving, pulls his weight....blah blah.

Then you get pregnant.

Violence, adultery, financial abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, drug and drink abuse from the non pregnant partner are all far more likely to start during pregnancy than at any other time in a relationship. It is the watershed when men and women have to step up and grow up. Some cant or wont.

This is why women have babies with bad fathers/husbands, because until the baby came, they were good partners. Sadly many fail to deliver when being a grown up is required.

OP YANBU, it is a fucking stupid thing to ask and solves nothing.

Bogeyface Mon 03-Dec-12 22:25:01

no you didnt Rabbit but I think I may do with my repeating of others wise words in a crap way grin

lostconfusedwhatnext Mon 03-Dec-12 23:01:03

This is an upsetting thing to hear because in a roundabout way the person is wishing your lovely dcs out of existence.

I do not have dcs by a dickhead but we do have 2 dcs and not a lot of money, we are worried about where we are going to live and how we are going to afford everything as realistically we both have to work but realistically we can't really afford the childcare and all this is exacerbated by my health problems which lead to a deficit of day to day energy on top of all the other deficits. Sometimes people on here seem to suggest that these reasonable forseeable difficulties mean that I should not have had children. This makes me very sad. Really? only those in perfect health with huge salaries and /or free childcare can have children? So my gorgeous dcs should not exist, and instead of sniffing their perfect silky heads I should be drinking too much cheap winebox wine (affordable with no kids and no incentive not to) watching shit tv, while looking ahead to a lonely old age? Why? Who appointed you to say that should be my lot?

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Mon 03-Dec-12 23:04:56

It's a rhetorical question anyway. I mean, all it does is make you feel worse than you do already because you either have to answer it, or stop your cathartic release of swear words in it's tracks. (I may have to work on a witty comeback for this question for a nice third option)

Most women I know work so hard to see their children cared for, whether planned/unplanned/immaculately conceived/married/single/dating/one night thing, if the other person responsible for that child doesn't pull their weight and lets their child down in some way, of course you are going to have a good old moan.

I'm orf to bed. If I kill it again I can only apologise. Bogeyface did a good conclusion anyway. I can't say what I want to say without going right into my own personal stuff, and I really didn't mean to make it all about me and kill it dead.

Winetta Tue 04-Dec-12 07:01:40

Wow. Well said Rabbit and hugs to you OP

LesleyPumpshaft Tue 04-Dec-12 08:20:10

YANBU! DS's dad was absolutely fine right up until I was about 6 months pregnant and we got on like a house on fire, having been very good friends for a couple of years prior to getting together. He then jacked in his job and started drinking all the time and started seeing someone else behind my back.

You can never predict or have any control over how other people react to major life events.

I'm allowed to ask why I had a child with him, although I didn't have the benefit of a crystal ball either. Other people aren't allowed to ask me though, or I might ask them why they are being such a dick.

IvanaHumpalot Tue 04-Dec-12 09:12:31

Agree with Yermina

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