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"It should punch you round the face, with a little kiss after", oh you reckon, Jamie Oliver?

(224 Posts)
Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 18:39:16

"It should punch you round the face, with a little kiss after"

Jamie Oliver's BBQ sauce recipe.

Fuck off Jamie.

mignonette Thu 29-Nov-12 18:40:23

Oh God no. Where there really no people with their brains switched on at the product development meet?

I wondered where my BBQ sauce was going wrong. My local asda were out of punches round the face...

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 18:41:58

That is a very unfortunate turn of phrase hmm

I love Jamie but this series is making him look a right tit, what happened???

Rachog Thu 29-Nov-12 18:44:36

I like this series but agree that was a stupid thing to say. Much prefer Jamie to Nigella and the crap she comes out with.

mignonette Thu 29-Nov-12 18:45:48

Speaking as one who was once with a 'man' who used to hit then kiss, I just cannot remove my cats bum face at this silliness....

puds11 Thu 29-Nov-12 18:46:29

You are kidding me!!!! Where was this said? I had a guy tell me a domestic violence 'joke' the other day. Needless to say i was not amused.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 18:48:58

puds He just said it on his C4 15 Minute Recipes programme tonight.

puds11 Thu 29-Nov-12 18:51:07

Thanks Katie i haven't seen it, and think i might avoid it now.

realcoalfire Thu 29-Nov-12 19:14:48

I think you need to stop taking everything so literally.He is describing a strong flavour with a sweet after-note, not telling male viewers to beat up their wives

mignonette Thu 29-Nov-12 19:22:44

No of course he is not 'telling people' to beat up their wives'.....But it is imagery loaded with offensiveness.

FermezLaBouche Thu 29-Nov-12 19:25:10

God he's a bloody idiot, isn't he? He's just....dim! What a stupid turn of phrase.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 19:30:09

I'll translate.
He was talking about Food
A punch in the face > punchy flavour that hits you when you take a bite.
Little kiss afterwards > sweet, subtle taste afterwards.

Domestic violence? You have got to be joking. The context in which it was said makes the meaning obvious. Why insist on taking it out of context/ taking it literally?

mignonette Thu 29-Nov-12 19:33:02

I do not need you to translate. The context is not relevant here. The analogy is not uncommon in DV.

TwitchyTail Thu 29-Nov-12 19:33:57

It's an unfortunate turn of phrase, but not as unfortunate as the incessant playing of "Buffalo Stance", his forced ageing cheeky chappiness, and blatant product placement of Uncle Ben's.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 19:38:06

mignonette Of course the context is important.
It's just an expression. "It punched me in the stomach"
Not literally obviously.

larks35 Thu 29-Nov-12 19:40:59

KittyFane1 - "Domestic violence? You have got to be joking. The context in which it was said makes the meaning obvious. Why insist on taking it out of context/ taking it literally?"

I totally agree, I do think if you look hard enough you can take offense at almost anything anyone says and if people try too hard to avoid giving offense we would live in a very boring society.

However, what come's out of Jamie's mouth at the best of times is a load of old twaddle. His recipes are good but I can't stand his TV persona.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 19:41:39

Well, realcoal and Kittyfane, I've racked my brains and I can't think of any other instance where one might dish out a punch, followed by a kiss.

What he said has distinct DV connotations, like it or not.

larks35 Thu 29-Nov-12 19:43:00

Greg whatsit on MasterChef uses those sort of expressions too, I think he does to hide the fact that he doesn't really know that much about being a chef.

zookeeper Thu 29-Nov-12 19:44:53

Of course it has domestic violence connotations. Not funny at all.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 19:45:03

Kittyfane you said: It's just an expression. "It punched me in the stomach"

And would you follow that up with "It kissed me in the stomach"?

Never heard that saying before.

Where else might a punch be follwowed by a kiss?

To my mind, DV.

Sorry you don't like the connotations of what Jamie Oliver said.

mignonette Thu 29-Nov-12 19:45:22

Still racking my brains too, Katie....Must have been those punches/Kisses that addled it.

mignonette Thu 29-Nov-12 19:46:19

JO can't help being too dim to understand the connotations................

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 19:49:16

Jamie Oliver uses lots of colourful phrases and imagery. This one definitely is loaded with DV connotations.

The language used in everyday situations is important, as it creates a culture where telling 'jokes' about giving the wife a slap if she doesn't have the dinner on the table is seen as acceptable.

It normalises domestic violence.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 19:53:20

Katiekitty

The phrase he used came from the word Punchy. Having an immediate impact; forceful. For example chilli would be described as 'punchy'.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 19:55:26

...Followed by a sweet flavour 'kissing me on the lips'
It's imagery, an expression.

TwoStrongArms Thu 29-Nov-12 19:57:42

I can see why this phrase would send chills down the spine of a DV survivor.

He is an twattish idiot anyway. That caravan pub thing he had in his last series, called 'The Cock In Cider' gives a general idea of what he thinks is funny, appropriate etc.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 19:58:19

Yes, I know how it can be justified kittyfane why use terms loaded with DV meaning though?

He didn't say 'punchy' he could have, but didn't.

Why did he speicify a 'punch to the face' with 'a little kiss after'? Why be so exacting with this iamgery?

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 19:58:54

Kittyfane
punchy as in 'having immediate impact' would have been fine. Not when you team it with 'in your face'.

He is more or less condoning dv which aint onshock

Fakebook Thu 29-Nov-12 20:05:31

When I first read it, it sounded like a boxing match to me followed by a cheeky kiss by the puncher to "kiss away" the pain.

I didn't think of DV, because that's not how he intended it to sound like.

The BBQ sauce Flavour must skip around the mouth like a boxer in a ring being punched. Then as the flavour intensifies the puncher gives a kiss to ease the pain.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:08:11

Ok, he could have phrased it better, he got carried away with words but he was talking about food. Food is neither male or capable of literally punching a person and then kissing them afterwards so I am not offended.

BTW, before anyone starts saying that I don't know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of hit and kiss, you are wrong. I just choose not to project my crap experiences onto TV personalities who are obviously not talking about DV.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:11:05

"A person experiences a shock which feels like a punch in the face, their DP kisses it better"

RachelWalsh Thu 29-Nov-12 20:13:18

He talked about "pimping" a salad the other day which is another stupid phrase I find distasteful.

He's a bit of a nob.

RachelWalsh Thu 29-Nov-12 20:14:04

And they shouldn't have been allowed to ruin buffalo stance like that - remember neneh cherry's food programme? They would bring that back.

RachelWalsh Thu 29-Nov-12 20:14:17

They should bring that back.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:14:52

I agree with the poster who said it's 'imagary.' Sadly the imagery is that of domestic violence.

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 29-Nov-12 20:18:31

Actually OP as someone who had to hide in a refuge for months to escape a DV partner situation I find it quite offensive you would get offensive about this turn of phrase. This no way compares to a DV situation or promotes it.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:20:10

Inneedofbrandy Well said.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 20:21:35

Sorry to upset you IneedofBrandy

As someone who has also experienced DV, it did conjure up connotations for me.

OpheliaPayneAgain Thu 29-Nov-12 20:23:24

""punch"" also means pungency - he's a cook/chef - pungency will assault your senses.

It's not his fault that he has a specific culinary command of English and is trying to teach fuckwitted morons how to cook, and dare I say, read/understand there is more than one meaning to every adjective used.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:24:55

InNeedOfBrandy
It does have connations for other victims though...

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:26:01

It's not his fault that he has a specific culinary command of English and is trying to teach fuckwitted morons how to cook, and dare I say, read/understand there is more than one meaning to every adjective used.

Agree

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 29-Nov-12 20:27:36

I am not upset, I find it slightly petty and professionally offended to be offended at his turn of phrase.

I got exactly what he meant, he meant it was a strong wow type of flavour followed by something sweet and nice, I'm sorry you didn't see that. Maybe (and I mean this in the nicest way) because of what you went through you noticed and got offended when it wasn't really anything to get upset over.

Fakebook Thu 29-Nov-12 20:28:19

I find it amusing how often one persons interpretation of something leads to others agreeing without thinking and start making vows to boycott and slander someone for something they said that was taken out of context.

<baaah baaah>

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 20:29:25

Who's mentioning boycotts here? fakebook?

Isn't it exhausting to be offended all the time? To look for hidden meanings that offend you? Or someone else?

Oh and Greg Wallace isn't a chef, that's why he doesn't know about cheffy things. He's a green grocer. And a TV personality, with very little personality.

Honestly, give it a rest. Not everything is said to push women to the bottom.

Oh wait, I said push women...

Methe Thu 29-Nov-12 20:30:47

This series has been unwatchable due to piss poor sound editing. I'm surprised you could hear what he's staying!

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 20:31:33

Yanktee, nope, I'm not offended all the time.

Just looking for offence all the time then?

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:33:02

YankTee grin

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 20:33:43

Nope, not looking for it all the time either.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:36:36

OP Do you really think that Jamie Oliver was implying that it is ok to punch his wife in the face and then kiss her better?

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 20:37:38

Im sorry but when women get branded over emotional and highly strung i never wonder why anymore.
Yes, i am a woman.
It was a phrase, it didn't mean anything. If it was mike tyson that said it, id get it.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:37:53

The OP has said she is a DV victim and she didn't like the phrase. I think it's wrong to start cross-examining her...

Fakebook Thu 29-Nov-12 20:37:56

puds11 Thu 29-Nov-12 18:51:07
Thanks Katie i haven't seen it, and think i might avoid it now.

Just because he said something that was taken out of context?

hopkinette Thu 29-Nov-12 20:40:04

It's a fucking stupid turn of phrase but JO is an utter cock, so no big surprise.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 20:41:07

Kittyfane I think Jamie Oliver - or whoever wrote the script - thought he/they were being edgy, contraversial.

Like all the Rihanna - Chris Brown stuff.

Giving DV an 'edge'.

Like the previous poster pointed out how Jamie habitually says 'pimp your salad' as it's become normal parlance. Nice edgy imagery eh?

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 20:41:16

Why is it 'professionally offended' to comment on an unfortunate turn of phrase.

No, I won't be boycotting or staging a protest, but it is OK to say, 'here, Jamie. That was not good imagery'.

Particularly in a week where DV has been highlighted in the press, and the seriousness of it emphasised. I read this week that in some areas of the country, one in five police call outs is to a scene of DV. One in five.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:41:27

peas As I said, I am no stranger to DV. I am not offended. OP is offended. Are we not allowed to question why when she has asked AIBU?

YABU

Sorry, I forgot to put that.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:44:51

OP : Giving DV an 'edge'.
He was talking about FOOD.

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 29-Nov-12 20:45:06

I doubt Rihanna thought she'd give chris brown an edge when her face was battered. I would of thought having said you'd been in a DV sit you would have sympathy for the poor girl.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 20:45:32

The OP has been called 'professionally offended', a sheep, and has been told that threads like this are the reason women are called 'highly strung' and 'over emotional'.

It upset her and she wanted to discuss this with others. It would be good if we could do this without calling her names.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:45:32

Tbh KittyFane1 you seem intent on doing more that simply questioning her. You've made your point several times loud and clear. There's no need for grin and suchlike on something as sensitive as dv. You should know better than most that people have different responses and triggers to their experience.

GrannyRat Thu 29-Nov-12 20:45:48

Bloody hell, this thread is depressing. I fail to see how you can equate what he said in ralation to FOOD to domestic violence. Sometimes people just look for things to be offended by.

LadyBeagle Thu 29-Nov-12 20:46:08

Oh for FFs.
It was a bit of pretentious chef speak, which is suddenly being taken out of context and suddenly we have Jamie Oliver supporting DV?
I agree with KittyFane1.
And I despair.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 20:46:56

Ineeda - I have colossal sympathy for Rihanna. I get the feeling her life isn't in her own control.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:47:47

peas: you seem intent on doing more that simply questioning her
Please quote me.

I find it ridiculous and I have explained why.

RonnyJotten Thu 29-Nov-12 20:48:26

buy one of his books '15 mins meals' my arse ,

InNeedOfBrandy Thu 29-Nov-12 20:48:37

I really don't see how you can say one minute she's giving DV an edge and the next you have sympathy for her angry am leaving this thread now, to close to the bone for me.

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 20:49:17

mme i stand by what i said. I was talking in general. And threads like these do look overdone.
A thread like this might have fared better in chat.

It is unreasonable to have an overblown reaction.

It is however, understandable.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:49:21

Nobody is saying he's supporting dv.
The most anybody has said is that it's an unfortunate turn of phrase.
Why do people have to exaggerate in order to further their arguments?

JustFabulous Thu 29-Nov-12 20:49:29

Those of you who have said it has "domestic violence connatations" are you implying Jamie was thinking about DV when he said it?

I suspect he was engrossed it what he was doing and was just being enthusiastic about the food.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 20:50:40

It is totally ok to say that you don't agree with the poster without ridiculing her emotional reaction to the phrase that Jamie used.

It may not be triggering for everyone, but the OP was upset by it.

If you don't agree, then how about, 'I am sorry you were upset by this, but I think that your personal experiences are clouding how you see this', rather than 'OMG woman, get a grip'.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:51:50

peas OP said at top of thread : "What he said has distinct DV connotations, like it or not."

That's exactly it, JF. That's why I wonder how exhausting it must be to listen so carefully to every little thing people say.

It may not have been his best turn of phrase but I doubt the writers were thinking 'ooh, it's edgy, and about DV, let's use it!!'

WithTheDude Thu 29-Nov-12 20:52:25

I agree with you Katiekitty and MmeLindor, this is precisely the kind of crap which normalises domestic violence. It's the little things which cause the culture of VAW. We can call out Ched Evans and Chris Brown and Roman Polanski, but are supposed to "ignore" the little things. The little things add up to the big things.

SGM <proud to be professionally offended and hysterical>

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 20:52:51

JustFabulous
No, I don't think that he meant anything by it. But he is a massive star, with a huge publicity/marketing team who should be more aware of the comments he makes.

Anyone can misspeak, or use an unfortunate turn of phrase. Shame that no one in the production team noticed it.

Sorry, MmeL, I respectfully disagree.

The OP does need to get a grip. If a turn of phrase on a TV show triggers her, she needs more help than MN can give her.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:53:20

If you don't agree, then how about, 'I am sorry you were upset by this, but I think that your personal experiences are clouding how you see this', rather than 'OMG woman, get a grip'.
This is AIBU not CHAT.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:53:41

KittyFane1
You said it was imagery. What image do you think he was trying to conjure up then?

Even if it was chat, the OP's reaction to this was over the top.

The image of spice and sweet, Peas.

PortoDude Thu 29-Nov-12 20:55:40

I am sure he meant nothing at all by it - but it is just another demonstration that we are so immune to violent language and behaviour - oh it's just a turn of phrase - and that such statements are innocent and normal STILL. To the degree that even women who have experienced DV see nothing wrong. It IS VERY WRONG to punch people in the face, and the kiss afterwards alludes to a DV situation.

Why is it acceptable to still say stuff like this? You would not say Nigger, or Retard for example, as (most) people have learnt that this is offensive. Why should phrases that relate to DV still be acceptable to anyone?

Fakebook Thu 29-Nov-12 20:56:15

Sorry why is Rihanna being mentioned now? As far as I'm aware, what happened to Rihanna was condemned by everyone. There's wasn't anything "edgy" about what happened. No one has given dv an "edge" after what happened to her. Least of all Jamie bloody Oliver.

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 20:56:41

"a punch, followed by a kiss" in relation to a bbq sauce ?

I saw the programme.

I have never been a victim of DV, but it made me wince. Am I using my (non existent) experience to get professionally offended ?

It has got cool these days (apparently) to use "edgy" and shocking statements. I think less of Jamie Oliver for this, I think less of the scriptwriters for feeding him the line and I think less of people who would ridicule someone who was upset by it.

baublesandbaileys Thu 29-Nov-12 20:56:48

he's a twat!

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:56:50

Peas Answered that already up thread.

"he phrase he used came from the word Punchy. Having an immediate impact; forceful. For example chilli would be described as 'punchy'...Followed by a sweet flavour 'kissing me on the lips' It's imagery, an expression."

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 20:57:42

Tee
she is not the only one offended by it. Although I wouldn't go so far as to say it offends me. I find it highly unfortunate turn of phrase, and think that his people should have reshot that section, but I don't think it was in any way meant to be edgy or controversial.

And yes, perhaps Katie needs to think about why this has upset her so much, but pointing that out to her in such a fashion is hardly kind, is it?

Kittyfane
Does human decency get left outside AIBU then? She is UPSET by this. Why jump on her, just cause it is in AIBU?

WithTheDude Thu 29-Nov-12 20:57:54

It's incredibly unkind to tell a survivor their reaction was "over the top". People react differently to all sorts of things. Some are triggered by words. It's not exactly asking a lot for a man on a major TV show to not use words that convey DV.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 20:58:16

The question wasn't actually pitched to you YankTeeDoodleDanTee
'Sugar and spice' hmm Really?

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 20:58:58

MMeLindor Not jumped on. Disagreed with.

It's always been cool to be edgy. See Lenny Bruce circa 1961. It always will be.

This wasn't edgy. It was a stupid turn of phrase to describe BBQ sauce, apparently. I haven't actually seen the programme as I hate Jamie Oliver.

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 21:01:16

As I said earlier KittyFane1 you've made your point very forcefully. Why not leave it that and stop repeating yourself.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 21:01:41

AF
you could be right about the line fed to him. I don't know how much of his stuff is scripted and rehearsed, but would imagine a lot of it comes from him.

To be clear. I don't think that Jamie Oliver in any way condones DV, and he would likely be horrified to hear that anyone would take it this way.

He is, however, in the public eye, and for that reason he should be more aware of the power of his words.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:01:41

I can't stand him either YankTee !!

Lavenderhoney Thu 29-Nov-12 21:02:17

There are other ways to describe the taste and aftertaste of food. I have never heard this one used all in one sentence like that. I should imagine he thinks he has dumbed it down suffiently to be understood by his viewers, who are more civilised than himself in describing taste. I don't think he means any harm, it's an unfortunate turn of phase though.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 21:02:35

No, I don't get offended all the time, so those concerned I do and need help can thankfully stop worrying.

I don't like it when a tv programme with a popular chef uses language with DV imagery.

I'm pretty sure the programme wasn't live, took several times to shoot and had a script. It wasn't just him getting caught up in the creativity of his cooking and all that.

I'm saying it was scripted by people who think a bit of edgy language is cool.

I think it leaves an unpleasant taste.

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:02:46

I don't hate Jamie Oliver

I think he's a slightly stupid man who was in the right place at the right time. He's not so popular as he used to be though, is he ? That's because stupidity will always out in the end.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:04:06

peas You asked me a question and I had to repeat myself by cutting and pasting from up thread.
This is AIBU. The OP asks a question, people agree or disagree, she comes back, they come back, she comes back...

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 21:04:29

Slow internet connection for me here tonight, sorry for slow reply!

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:05:06

"AIBU to give someone a pasting for talking about something that triggered some bad feelings in them" ??

yep, you are

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 21:05:30

I cant see where we were asked AIBU though... Hence i said about chat.
Im not the thread police but ....

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 21:06:46

Ive seen people get pastings for posting they are jealous of pregnant friends.
Whats the difference? Both aRe valid bad feelings ...

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 21:06:52

The DV I experienced seems a lifetime ago, just every now and again, when I hear somethng such as JO said, it flits back into my mind.

It always will. I'll never forget it.

If that's been professionally offended, sign me up.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:07:36

Any A pasting? Quote please.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 21:08:50

Stickemup
If you can't see a difference between someone being jealous of pregnant friends, and being upset over domestic violence memories, then I am not sure what to say to you, tbh.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:10:10

It's a stupid turn of phrase.

It's not relevant whether he meant it to be imagery of what it's imagery of, is it? Are we really saying he's so thick he can't understand that imagery of a 'punch round the face' makes you imagine, um, a punch round the face, followed by 'a little kiss', which makes you think of ... well ... a little kiss?

It's not exactly Jocyean complexity we're talking here.

If Oliver were really that dim, he'd be struggling to string sentences together, and my impression of him is that that is far from true.

So, it seems likely he simply didn't bother to consider where he'd got that image from or what it suggested. That's lazy and wankerish.

Sure, it's probably a one-off (though along with his other wankerish phrases, this seems unlikely). No-one is demanding we string him up in the middle of the village green. But maybe it's worth a little discussion all the same.

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:11:16

kittyF...is Op going to feel any better after this thread ? Or is she going to feel belittled and undermined after reading some of the responses ?

"AIBU for being annoyed with the way my cat looks at me" Reasonable reply...Yes, you are professionally offended

"AIBU for being triggered by a comment that reminded me of the DV I suffered"....Unreasonable reply... "Yes, and you need to get help, stop being professionally offended"

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 21:11:46

I knew someone would say that. Both feelings are valid.

Ever experienced infertility? Miscarriage? Bing told you wont conceive again but have to be happy for pregnant friends?
Is there one trauma that trumps another?

Im willing to be told I'm wrong.
Im sure you can guess what I've been through.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:11:48

Jamie Oliver is pretty dim I suspect LRD

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 21:12:41

Sorry i do have to say iv never posted anything about being jealous i couldn't take the pasting... ;)

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:13:28

Any :"AIBU for being triggered by a comment that reminded me of the DV I suffered"
OP didn't ask that.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:14:33

I don't think he's that dim, kitty.

TarkaTheOtter Thu 29-Nov-12 21:14:59

YANBU. I have no personal DV experience but "understood" the imagery immediately.

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:16:57

stickemup, having sympathy for different difficulties people have in their life is not exclusive to only one area

there are lots of awful experiences I would hesitate to pick at people for, and tell them they need to "get help"

yes, even in AIBU

peasabovesticks Thu 29-Nov-12 21:18:01

JO may be dim but the way that TV works is that the people who work on these programmes especially when we're talking about Channel 4 will sit around a table and plan how they're going to make the programme edgy and urban and cool. Don't for one second imagine there won't be a dozen wankers wearing skinny jeans clapping like seals when JO comes out with this unfortunate phrase.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 21:18:01

Stickemup
Actually, I have had 3 miscarriages, and know exactly how it feels to be jealous of a pregnant friend. If someone were to post that on MN, then I would hope that most people would have the empathy to reply kindly to a person posting a similar story.

And if they did give the OP a pasting, then I would stick up for the OP.

I am sorry if you are going through this at the moment. It is truly crap.

LRDtheFeministDude Thu 29-Nov-12 21:19:18

peas - yes, that I can completely believe.

Mme - well said, and sorry it has to be said.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 21:20:01

I don't think JO is dim.

You don't get to a position of being the most famous TV chef in UK (dare I say one of the most famous in the world) with a string of restaurants, and other business interests when you are 'dim'.

I think he is very canny, and that he knows exactly what his public profile is, and plays to that market.

Lovecat Thu 29-Nov-12 21:20:32

YANBU OP - I cannot bear this or the hideous 'pimp' phrase that JO uses all the time - just one more drop in the steady trickle that normalises this kind of shite in our every day lives.

I think the posters who are claiming the OP hasn't been given a pasting are being disingenuous to say the least... 'get a grip'? 'professionally offended'? Both pretty offensive and attempting to deny someone else's feelings.

Yanbu. It's imagery which shouldn't be the norm. Doesn't matter if it used to be, as Porto much more eloquently said, but it shouldn't be now.

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-Nov-12 21:22:51

OP is unfairly getting a hard time here. I don't think Jamie is dim, but I doubt he thought through the connotations of that phrase and I am sure he doesn't encourage or incite DV.

However it is an example of misogynistic language or imagery which has worked its way into acceptance and normality. He was not being deliberately offensive or insensitive, but the fact that he, his producers, such a chunk of the audience can't or won't understand why it is at the very least insensitive is indicative of a worrying attitude to women in society.

Katiekitty Thu 29-Nov-12 21:25:31

So I didn't ask AIBU - I just hang out in AIBU (and X-Factor), seemed as good a place as any to bring my post to.

As I've said, it takes a lot to offend me, but JO managed it today.

I'm not feeling undermined, I'm chuffed we're having this heated debate about it. DV aint funny and there are many ways JO could have expressed his no doubt marvelous BBQ sauce, "a punch in the face and a kiss after" is too evocative of other things than just a nice thing to have for tea.

Aren't we all made up of little bits of our own life experience?

(Even those getting strange looks from their cats smile)

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 21:25:37

Exactly, Petite.

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 21:26:49

MmeL
Thanks for your nice reply.
I have seen pastings of that nature. Not from everyone, it has to be said.
I started watching JO since he doesn't seem to dance around as much as he did, i think I'm sure he didn't mean anything nasty.
I don't want o invalidate OP feelings, and my analogy was to compare the type of pastings people get. So hopefully that was understood. Not thread jacking.

As for me, I'm over it now, I've had to get over it, win some, lose some, innit smile
I hope you got your wish x

OP truly sorry this brought up bad feelings. Hug. X

TisILeclerc Thu 29-Nov-12 21:29:45

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TwoStrongArms Thu 29-Nov-12 21:30:32

It is hardly surprising that JOs turn of phrase would trigger an image of DV. It is hardly surprising that that would resonate unpleasantly for some victims of DV.

I very much doubt he really meant anything to do with DV, but it is true how deeply violent acts are embedded in our language as metaphors.

JO is a serial offender against the English language - using lazy faux cool overdone phrases like 'pimp your salad' - overdone ironly and no longer equatable with prostitution, I think, and the last programme I saw he talked of 'clank in some herbs / clank in a dollop of cream / clank on a handful of cheese'. Clank?

PetiteRaleuse Thu 29-Nov-12 21:34:48

I doubt the kids in my extended family on Facebook think about the connotations of what they are saying when they go on about being 'fraped' but nonetheless a horrible term, IMO, is gradually being absorbed into the language. It's pretty sickening.

Forgot to say OP, YANBU.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:34:59

Katiekitty Really good post.
I (obviously) am not offended in the slightest by his turn of phrase despite my experiences but yes, you are right when you say "Aren't we all made up of little bits of our own life experience?". Different things trigger different emotions in different people.

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 21:35:01

Stickemup
It makes me sad really. That someone could post from a position of pain, and be ridiculed or belittled. Even if the person is being unreasonable, often the feelings are understandable, and so we should have compassion for that person.

I was extremely lucky to go on to have my DC. I know how fortunate I was, and find it heart breaking for those who haven't been so lucky. I hope this discussion hasn't upset you. xx

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:37:10

MMe: ridiculed or belittled Quote please.

StickEmUp Thu 29-Nov-12 21:38:39

Hasn't upset me at all in fact I've caused some upset, clearly, myself.
Id never want to belittle feelings.

Bed time now.
My hearts not broken anymore.
Ive got a DH, house, good job, and full control over my life in most areas.

I have everything x

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:40:49

Mme Sorry, you were talking to stick I think.

KittyFane1 Thu 29-Nov-12 21:42:22

Interesting to hear different points of view, bed now. Thanks OP.

drjohnsonscat Thu 29-Nov-12 21:53:05

I have to say it didn't strike me (sorry - another one!) as bad but then I have never been a victim of DV so it just didn't ring those bells for me. To me it sounded like "gob-smacked" which presumably also literally means smacked in the gob but is used to mean something made an impression. And yes he could have said "punchy" but that also means the same - like punching someone.

Like people say you should "Roll with the punches" . They don't actually mean you should be punched and just go with it. Anyway, I see that it takes many of you to a bad place and for that reason alone it's not good. But I would just be wary of throwing around accusations of misogyny because for those of us lucky enough never to have been victims of DV, it sounds like quite a powerful metaphor to describe food, not an exhortation to DV. And it actually reminded me of the time my DS (then 2) accidentally headbutted me to the point I thought he'd broken my nose then gave me a kiss to say sorry. Bitter and sweet.

Like I say, I get what you are all saying. But it really didn't chime that way with me and I guess it didn't with Jamie either. You can call that ignorance or you can call it not having DV front of mind - which should surely be the norm in an ideal world where DV is not prevalent.

kickassangel Thu 29-Nov-12 22:32:16

you do all know that tv is scripted, rehearsed, filmed many times and edited? those of you saying that it's just a turn of phrase are acting like he got asked a difficult question, got caught out and made an awkward answer he might be regretting.

No.

This was planned. Discussed. Agreed. Rehearsed. Said over and over again.

OF course we all know he's talking about food, but he's using an analogy associated with domestic violence. In a program aimed at women. Just before the month of stop violence against women campaign.

If he put together a show aimed at young children, due to be broadcast in the middle of kids' TV then said that a meal should 'invite you round the back of the bike shed for a quick fondle' would you still say he's only talking about food?

It is NOT acceptable to use an analogy to DV. At all. Ever. In any context.

You don't have to be professionally offended, or an over emotional woman or anything but a decent human being with a moral compass to know that.

In case you're wondering - other things that generally aren't OK to make light hearted quips about include - murder - violence of any kind - racism - genocide (see murder, violence and racism) - child abuse - verbal or emotional abuse.

Geddit?

Petershadow Thu 29-Nov-12 22:57:38

World gone mad

I'm very sorry some people see these connotations

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 23:04:37

Blimey, Petershadow. I don't think I've ever seen someone use 'world gone mad' in a non-ironic fashion. The Daily Mail called, wondering where you have gone.

Don't feel sorry for us. We are quite fine.

Angelico Thu 29-Nov-12 23:04:58

It would never have occurred to me to find any hint of DV in that phrase but it's just a bit twattish. It's like when Nigella blethered on about parma ham being like tiny melting kitten tongues <vomits>

Just keep it real TV chefs! It's just very yummy food ffs!

MmeLindor Thu 29-Nov-12 23:08:36

Angelico
Perhaps I'm more attuned to it, due to the work I have done on DV.

Kittens tongues? Weird

HuwEdwards Thu 29-Nov-12 23:14:32

Surely the punch round the face could be a boxing analogy

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 23:20:31

great post, kickassangel

kickassangel Thu 29-Nov-12 23:21:55

It's quite well known as it sums up the physical & mental assault of DV. They hit you, then say that they love you. That's why it's particularly inappropriate. IF it had been straight forward punching it wouldn't be such a problem.

Still don't think violence is a particularly useful analogy when describing food, although kittens wouldn't be on my list of useful similes either. confused

AnyFuckingDude Thu 29-Nov-12 23:24:00

Nor boxing hmm

TheReturnOfBridezilla Thu 29-Nov-12 23:36:36

Made me think of DV immediately. JO puts me off my food at the best of times but yuck.

Lavenderhoney Fri 30-Nov-12 02:56:19

No, I don't think he is stupid or dim either. I dont think he is the most famous tv chef in the world. he is not a chef and frankly would be useless in a professional kitchen. He is not even that famous outside the uk. He is famous in the uk for being an annoying cheeky chappie who does yet another cooking show, school dinners. He is a brand and works hard to promote it and make it attractive to people who will buy his stuff.

The phase he used is not chef speak. I know plenty of chefs and they do not talk about food like that and these chefs are older/ younger and not media savvy or need to be.

I never watch Jamie Oliver, he annoys me. But it annoys me even more to think he is or his overpaid production team misusing verbs in an attempt to find new phases to keep up with his take on sarf London Cheeky chappie talk. " crank in the.."

Wonder how his pr company will sort this, as I am assuming he will want everyone to love him about now, what with Christmas coming and book sales important. Cue an apology, Jamie cuddling a few kittens on telly. Etc etc.

valiumredhead Fri 30-Nov-12 08:11:27

So none has ever said that chill or a particularly hot curry 'packs a punch?'

He was talking about FOOD. Context is everything.

Oooooooohhhhhhh drooly man strikes again!

JuliaScurr Fri 30-Nov-12 08:43:13

Really? you don't get the connection between metaphor>culture>actual reality? Have you ever seen any adverts?

squeakytoy Fri 30-Nov-12 08:44:27

"he is not a chef and frankly would be useless in a professional kitchen."

he grew up working in a professional kitchen and then trained in various other professional kitchens, of course he is a bloody chef!

altinkum Fri 30-Nov-12 08:49:39

He's talking about food, as in... Its got a series kick to it and leave a pleasant taste afterwards...

I don't get the connection with DV, unless you are truly over thinking it... When he is simply and eveidently talking about food, as he is marketing his product!!!

valiumredhead Fri 30-Nov-12 08:50:00

Yep - he IS a chef regardless of wether you like him or not. Iirc he trained in The River Cafe.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 08:51:30

The turns of phrase are so insidious within our culture that no-one even THINKS about what they are, or what they mean.

And then there is the double standard on here with violent phrases "I am going to kill DH when he gets home" "cut his balls off" etc etc - you see it all the time on here. Of course no-one actually MEANS it. But if the male posters here made a remark that they were going to perform some act of violence on their wife when she got in, I bet a different view would be taken.

squeakytoy Fri 30-Nov-12 09:01:21

I dont get any connection to violence, domestic or any other kind, with what he said.

Spicy food is often described as "packing a punch", "having a kick to it"...

Leverette Fri 30-Nov-12 09:05:12

Blatant DV analogy. Shame on you JO.

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 09:29:21

So kickassangel, your name?

GetAllTheThings Fri 30-Nov-12 09:41:41

'this dish is addictive'

Offensive to addicts.

'this dish will blow your socks off'

Offensive to victims of bomb blasts

'this dish will hit you for six'

Offensive to anyone who's experienced violence.

'this dish will leave you speachless'

Offensive to stroke victims.

'this dish will reduce you to tears'

Offensive to anyone who's experienced emotional distress.

Perhaps we should just use 'nice' to describe food and be done with it .

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 10:01:16

Oh don't be so ridiculous GetAll - hit you for six refers to cricket, not violence, to blow your socks off refers to being throughly beaten by a competitor in a sporting activity, not violence. The other examples are just silly.

"It should punch you round the face, with a little kiss after" though, refers to DV and we should be thinking a lot as to why we allow this misognynist language to be still used.

I did wince a bit when he said it to be honest, and I'm really not someone to be offended for the sake of it.

BUT...what I find more offensive is his general language...if he goes on about "wazzing" up the elements of his "story" one more time....>_<

GetAllTheThings Fri 30-Nov-12 10:16:51

Well I think you're being ridiculous PortoDude.

It's the opinion of a tin foil hatted conspiracy theorist that under every turn of phrase lays a mysoginistic permanent frost.

MmeLindor Fri 30-Nov-12 10:22:51

lavenderhoney
of course he is a chef, and I would beg to differ on him being known outside of UK. I lived in Germany and Switzerland, and his shows were on TV there. Friends from Germany, France and US all commented on my JO books when they visited, and said that they liked his shows.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 10:26:08

GetAll - I did not say that every phrase hid a misogynist undertone - none of the ones you quoted did, for example. My point is that the misogynist stuff is so ingrained in our culture that others think it is meaningless and its silly to even point it out.

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 10:29:12

Portodude, you have missed the point of "blow your socks off". It's an explosives analogy - nothing to do with sport.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 30-Nov-12 10:32:20

It clearly normalises a narrative of DV. His intentions are irrelevant, it was a very stupid thing to say.

Surely it's just a turn of phrase, an analogy? If he'd said "it should set your mouth on fire," is that a reference to DV? If he'd called it "blinding" or "gob-smacking" or "breathtaking" are those all references to violence and/or murder?

I've never experienced DV and don't have that frame of reference, but sometimes an expression is simply that. Not all analogies are nice. That doesn't mean they are to be taken literally.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 30-Nov-12 10:45:44

No, because DV isn't generally considered to be setting people's mouths on fire. Yes, it is an analogy: that's the bloody problem!

cory Fri 30-Nov-12 10:49:30

I think you can have it one of two ways:

either it is only about food and hence inoffensive

or it is imagery, in which case it works by calling up an image of something

because that's what imagery does

but using the argument that "it's imagery" to argue that it does not call up an image seems to me like a contradiction in terms

make your mind up, folks

OwlLady Fri 30-Nov-12 10:53:09

on his last series there was a lot of misogynistic language used and the trailer thing was called 'cock in cider' hmm

I have a tendancy to think it's more channel 4 than jamie though.....

PetiteRaleuse Fri 30-Nov-12 11:04:24

It's part of his blokey image. I don't see the need to make a bloke more blokey by using language like that but anyway..

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 11:23:35

well that was my point to Portodude - the imagery getallthethings listed is imagery. Blow your socks off is an explosive image. (Although I agree hit for six is cricket so not a physical violence image).

Likewise, gobsmacked, kickass. These are all images and some of them have lost the power of the orignal image through usage and some of them have not.

LRDtheFeministDude Fri 30-Nov-12 11:48:19

Ah, so because other images of violence exist (though none, so far as I see, of the crucial bit where the violence is juxtaposed with a kiss?), it's ok for JO to use this one?

Right then.

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 12:53:49

well, in cory's words, imagery of violence is either ok or it's not. It doesn't actually matter whether it's DV or random violence against a stranger in the street or whatever. So yes, if you are ok to use "I'm feeling quite stabby today" (an MN favourite) you are on a sticky wicket with objecting to this one.

Some violence imagery has lost its power through overuse and people no longer "see" the underlying image (which is why people say "I was literally blown away") but some of it still seems very vivid (like JO's example). Regardless, the underlying mechanism is the same.

This struck us (again!) because it was particularly vivid and also because some people made a connection with DV. I didn't necessarily go to DV but that's probably because I've never experienced it. I see that if you have, or if you are very aware of it in the world, you would think of it following JO's comments more than I would.

LRDtheFeministDude Fri 30-Nov-12 13:02:28

But some of those examples don't work.

'Strike' means to hit something against something else, but it's not necessarily violent - you strike matches; clockes strike the hour, etc. etc. OTOH the term JO used, 'punch you round the face' is violent. Graphically violent, in fact.

Thanquol Fri 30-Nov-12 15:07:33

I'm just going to put this here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1625519-To-want-to-punch-people-who-say-cheer-up-love-it-might-never-happen

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1623962-TO-wish-LEG-BREAKAGE-upon-the-ARSEHOLE-who-SPAT-on-my-windshield

My point being, I agree DV is bad. (This is an understatement.)

But I would point out the lack of response to these recent posts suggesting violence... to be fair, the leg breakage one did have one comment of "YABU to wish leg breakage on ANYONE.", but after an admittedly rapid look through these threads, that is the only instance I spotted.

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 19:47:04

I know LRD. I was exaggering for effect to make the point that some of this is threaded through language so deeply we no longer really think about it. But the other examples are violent images - stabby for example. And Thanquol's examples.

LRDtheFeministDude Fri 30-Nov-12 19:52:05

I know you know. I am possibly over-estimating the extent to which things need spelling out. But then, reading this thread I do think maybe it does need spelling out for the 'erm its just imagery innit, words 'n' shit' brigade.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 20:05:54

But I would agree that the others were acceptable either. And at the end of the day they might express those views (whilst not really meaning them) but they are not being paid a fortune to express them on National TV.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 20:09:13

And fwiw worth, Nigella spouts a load of crap too and does not come across as a card carrying menber of the sisterhood.

TiggyD Fri 30-Nov-12 20:45:52

Nothing wrong at all.

Jamie is obviously referring to a particularly friendly boxing opponent.

YerMaw1989 Fri 30-Nov-12 20:47:50

I think if its obviously about a sauce then its no bid deal really.

when people talk about drinks 'putting hairs on your chest' is that mocking hairy people, women with PCOS?

or when talking about a drink that 'has a kick to it' does that fuel as much outrage?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 30-Nov-12 21:12:55

No, it doesn't, obviously.

It is depressing how wilfully stupid people can be.

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 21:16:29

No LRD, everybody gets your point. But some are making the separate point that there are many instances of language like this which we don't automatically take literally. Some we do and some we don't, probably depending on lots of things including how overused the imagery is, how annoying or otherwise we find the speaker and our sensitivity to the issues in question. I didn't take this literally because it sounded to me like the pleasure and pain principle in a nutshell. I didn't think "oh he's talking about a man hitting a woman and then kissing her". Because I'm not even aware that that's how domestic violence happens (the other way round I might have assumed was more likely). It could just as easily be a punch from someone and then a kiss from someone else to make it better. If you want to examine the imagery in great detail then let's do that but I suspect the punch was chilli and the kiss was the sugar/honey in the bbq sauce - so not even the same entity. There are lots of layers to this but please don't assume some of us are in the "erm it's just imagery innit" brigade which presumably is shorthand for stupid.

LRDtheFeministDude Fri 30-Nov-12 21:25:54

I don't follow what you mean by 'literally' here. To take this 'literally' would mean that you're imagining a bottle of sauce punching and kissing someone - surely, we all realize he can't possibly mean it 'literally', he must obviously mean it as some kind of figurative language?!

No-one has suggested taking what he says literally - they're saying it's imagery that evokes DV.

I did think some people were suggesting that language that is 'imagery' is therefore not worth discussing or somehow not actually meaningful. I didn't think you were suggesting that.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 21:30:47

Drjohnson, so you show your ignorance about DV then...Please STOP trying to down play the imagery.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Fri 30-Nov-12 21:33:57

It's not a kiss from someone other than the person doing the punching, by the actual syntax of the original quotation. IT should punch you. With a kiss after'. You'd have to do a painfully over ingenious reading of that sentence to argue that the kisser is not the puncher.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 21:34:19

And of course, in cases of DV, the blokes LUFFS her. Wants to kiss her after he hits her, wants sex even. If she wasn't so x,y.z he wouldn't have to have hit her first of course....

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 21:50:37

I think we are in variations of the same place LRD. By literally I meant that sometimes we go into the imagery and see it (as the OP did in this example - not seeing a bottle of sauce having an impact which would be the most basic level, or seeing a bottle of sauce punching someone (!) but going to the deepest level fo the image and seeing a person punching someone) and sometimes we don't (as when we say I'm gob-smacked or I feel stabby or I'm going to kill the next person who asks me when I'm due).

The words sometimes pass us by and sometimes don't. I think it depends on lots of things including how hackneyed the phrase is. In this case, to me, he was taking a relatively common phrase in cooking - that something is so strong it will hit you right between the eyes. These phrases are common in cooking because food is so physical - it's why food is more likely to be called punchy than impactful. They mean the same but one resonates better with the physicality of food. It's also why you get Nigella pawing at her food as if it's her lover. She's not actually recommending anyone have sex with a scallop.

I do get the point but I would just be wary of assuming that people who don't quite see it like that are wrong or ignorant.

LRDtheFeministDude Fri 30-Nov-12 21:54:45

I'm not assuming people who don't see it like that are wrong or ignorant.

I do think that people who don't know what imagery is, or how language works, are ignorant about language and imagery. That's not me being rude, that's me making an observation. I do believe some people think anything they can call 'imagery' is somehow not part of normal, communicative language. And of course it is. Sure, sometimes hackneyed images pass us by, as you say - but that's not because they're figurative rather than literal (imagery cannot be literal). It's because they're hackneyed.

I think, with respect, that you are missing out the crucial point that has bothered people when you concentrate on one half of this phrase, about the 'punch', since the reason I believe people are upset is because this is juxtaposed with the second half of the phrase.

I know food is often described as 'punchy'. No disagreement there.

But to use this phrase is to use another metaphor entirely, and one which isn't a phrase I've heard before in the context of food, so I don't agree it's commonplace, and wouldn't want it to become so.

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 21:55:46

Porto, I'm not playing down the imagery. I'm giving my reaction to it and my interpretation of it. I've said many times that I can see it might strike you differently if you had been punched then kissed by a person. But it might not - you might still think he was talking about sauce the same way you might not actually flinch when someone says "I feel stabby..."

drjohnsonscat Fri 30-Nov-12 22:07:30

well I wrote a long boring section about the kiss because I agree that that is the provocative bit, as it turns out, but it was too boring so I cut it out.

Firstly pleasure & pain combined is a very common cultural reference. On one level this is just another way to juxtapose the two. It reminded me of Grayson Perry talking about why he dresses as a woman - it's the pleasure of the softness and the prettiness combined with the pain of humiliation (that's a whole other feminist post right there). So you could read it on that level - pleasure and pain combined - no endorsement or recommendation of it but just a juxtaposition. Anyway, it's a common theme. Secondly I wonder why we do balk at the kiss bit but not at the punch bit? Are we so immune to violence that we don't really take exception to it unless it's an even more perverse form of violence and that is violence masquerading as sweetness?

Anyway, have to go to bed now but I do know what you are saying. I still think it was meant in the way I have suggested and not as any nod to DV but I can see why it took others that way.

PortoDude Fri 30-Nov-12 22:41:14

I think it is fair to say it wasn't MEANT as anything at all. It was just a sound bite, JO and his producers spent no more time researching this than Nigella/s did when they were discussing kitten's tongues. It SOUNDS nice and fits their view of the demographic of the programme.

That does not mean we are not entitled to call him upon it of course.

kickassangel Sat 01-Dec-12 14:17:58

Porto, I'm glad you see that calling him on it is OK but so much money is spent on these shows that if they were totally unaware of what that image represented and it's connotations then they were being horrifically lazy. Jamie Oliver is fabulously wealthy. He could donate 10 million pounds to women's aid and not even notice the difference. If his script writers put that in there without thinking they should be fired. He may not know the origins of that phrase but it is obvious from this thread that many people do. Many of the people who know what the phrase means are in his prime target demographic.

The lack of thought makes this even worse. Kind of like they think they can say any old shit to women and we'll take it cos it's that lovely chap Jamie. The attitude itself is fairly obnoxious before you get into what the imagery means.

Those of you who asked about my name. I think the earlier phrases about hackneyed sayings and their lack if impact covers it. I am a cliche of hackneyed and it doesn't really bother me.

Yesterday I was in a very intense course about media representation. The issue of times when the media shows violence in a light hearted way was brought up. The guy teaching the course (who has been doing this since the 1960s) was very clear. Making light of violence, particularly towards more vulnerable people, is just not acceptable.

PortoDude Sat 01-Dec-12 16:36:01

kickass - I did post some more stuff up thread though - which was less conciliatory wink

PS was you who did the blog analysis on the stats of men suffering dv. I wanted to search for it for another thread and couldn't remember whose blog it was.....

TiggyD Sat 01-Dec-12 16:41:52

Kickass? Bit violent isn't it? Hope you'll be changing your name.

BurtRR Sat 01-Dec-12 16:51:24

actually I thought it was more dental decay, given its sweetness than anything else.

WithTheDude Sat 01-Dec-12 16:51:45
PortoDude Sat 01-Dec-12 17:12:05

Ah - thank you most kindly! That was just what I was thinking of!

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 19:38:00

That whoooshing sound?

That's the sound of the point of the thread going over tiggy's head. wink

TiggyD Sat 01-Dec-12 19:56:01

Some people are so desperate to take offence they can read bad in everything.

"going over tiggy's head." Are you calling me short?

PortoDude Sat 01-Dec-12 20:22:16

I, for one, am not desperate to take offence, I don't believe JO to be a wife beating bastard, I think it is good that people take a stand on misogynist language as we do today with racist/disablist language.

There are many phrases that people innocently quote on MN where they get jumped on from a great height. Please let the misogynisyt stuff be treated with the same disdain.

featherbag Sat 01-Dec-12 20:27:32

Dear lord, the professionally offended brigade is out in force aren't they?! Domestic violence? From this?! Don't be so fucking ridiculous!

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 21:08:32

I know, it's almost like we're taking things literally, or reading imagery, or somesuch bollocks.

It's a struggle to understand how we can be both reading too much, and too little, into this image, so I conclude, my god, we're damn good at this.

(Alternatively, it's just possible the phrase is ... um ... actually fucking offensive and crass, isn't it?)

TiggyD Sat 01-Dec-12 21:21:03

"or somesuch bollocks."?!
You're using bollocks as a synonym for rubbish! It's mostly men who have bollocks! Please don't put men down like that.

And please don't blaspheme.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 21:24:27

Oh, I'm sorry, was I meant to be exhalting the noble and mighty bollock as the symbol of power it is?

Gosh, my bad! blush

I sure do hope the sisterhood don't chuck me out for that failing.

GetAllTheThings Sat 01-Dec-12 21:43:05

I think Tiggy is being humourous and ironic LRD.

Which makes your post somewhat also.

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 21:46:27

I thought I was being humourous and ironic too. sad

LRDtheFeministDude Sat 01-Dec-12 21:47:49

I should probably explain I don't literally think the bollock is a symbol of power. sad

I don't even exhalt it, not very often anyhow. sad sad

And I'm not sure the sisterhood is (whisper it) an organization of people with membership badges who have the power to chuck people out.

kickassangel Sun 02-Dec-12 03:44:59

how would someone 'exalt' a bollock (or two)?

anyway - those of you asking about my name.
1. Points covered earlier about some phrases being so hackneyed they no longer carry any real emotion. The DV ref is very much a current and rl example, which 'kicking ass' hasn't been for a long time.
2. Kicking ass means to boot someone up the back side, or it did a few hundred years ago in the US. by the time Brits started using it, the modern day meaning had already been assigned.
3. Kicking ass now, and for a very long time, has meant verbally trouncing someone. I happily do that if I think someone needs it, although not often.
4. If you still want to insist on its literal, out-dated meaning, then do you really think that shoving someone in the back side with your foot is the same as punching them in the face? Really? The two are the same? Would you like to volunteer to experience both and see if they both feel the same?

And if thinking that DV isn't a light-hearted topic to just throw into prime time TV makes me 'professionally offended' then I will happily own that phrase. It isn't tiring to notice something then point out that it is a crass comment. It seems that noticing something, jumping through some pretty tortuous linguistic and mental hoops, then denying that you haven't, before sticking your head in the sand and pretending that referencing DV on prime time TV ISN'T stupid/crass/offensive etc would involve a whole load more effort. If you are one of the professionally unoffended brigade then you must be exhausted, going round all day looking for things to ignore or defend instead of just seeing it for what it is.

If you've never come across the meaning of the 'PYRTFWALKA' then just give thanks that you are in ignorance of what that phrase means, the kind of life that women live through when caught in relationship like that, the way that even talking about it can be a trigger to those who have experienced it. Don't try shutting people up who want to point it out. Why would you do that? Do you want DV language to become part of everyday life? Do you want us all to become enured to the horrors of DV? Do you want perpetrators to be able to hide behind 'everybody does it - even people on the TV talk about it?' IS that the society that you want? Because however much people have pretended that language doesn't matter - it does.

Loveweekends10 Sun 02-Dec-12 04:14:10

I watched it. Didn't pay any attention to his description of BBQ sauce ( which I think people are overreacting to) but got wound up by the marketing of uncle bens rice.
Liked his curry recipe though.

FlimFlamMerrilyOnHigh Sun 02-Dec-12 04:31:42

Before I was on MN, I wouldn't have thought twice about this metaphor, but now I'm a little better educated on DV etc, I think it was unfortunate and misjudged. But I doubt JO was aware of the connotations, so it was a poor choice of words, but with no malice intended.

kickassangel Sun 02-Dec-12 06:21:40

But flimflam it wasn't that JO just chose something out of thin air. It was scripted by writers and media professionals. It wasn't a mistake. It was a deliberate choice of words.

That's the problem.

seeker Sun 02-Dec-12 07:13:50

I think it's fascinating that even now people think these programmes are just good ol' Jamie chatting away off the top of his head to a single camera like some sort of home movie. There will have been editorial meetings, script meetings, compliance meetings.......And everything he says will have been a conscious decision by someone. And the decision will have been taken that using an image that can only - despite the beat efforts of theProfessionally Unoffended- have been drawn from domestic violence made Jamie look edgy and no end of a lad. Which says something unsettling about how people view domestic violence, doesn't it? And even if it wasn't a conscious decision, the fact that nobody said "Hmm- not sure about that image, Jamie, best not" is just as unsettling.

CindySherman Sun 02-Dec-12 07:50:17

It's a really nasty, loaded expression and it was written by someone for him to say. It wasn't an off the cuff remark!
I will not become immune to this shit like so many others. Good on you OP for putting this out there. I actually want to write and complain.

YouCanBe Sun 02-Dec-12 08:55:37

It was a crass and misguided comment.

jidelgin Sun 02-Dec-12 11:01:53

Didn't he tour the country in one series in a caravan/mobile pub dinner venue rig called The Cock n Cider or somesuch? Bit sleazy n crass!

Nancy66 Sun 02-Dec-12 11:03:59

it's a cookery show....

jesus.

KatieSantaPawskitty Sun 02-Dec-12 11:16:47

Yep, it's a cookery show.

All the more ignorant of the producers, script writers and JO's PR team to let such a crass statement be bandied about so casually.

Nancy66 Sun 02-Dec-12 11:18:18

yeah - except he was talking about a BBQ sauce not someone's husband.

BoneyBackJefferson Sun 02-Dec-12 11:20:37

kickassangel
"4. If you still want to insist on its literal, out-dated meaning, then do you really think that shoving someone in the back side with your foot is the same as punching them in the face? Really? The two are the same? Would you like to volunteer to experience both and see if they both feel the same?"

I would hope that if a partner kicked someone up the arse then it would be taken in the same way as being punched in the face as both would be assault.

KatieSantaPawskitty Sun 02-Dec-12 11:22:29

He was using powerful imagery. It means different things to different people.

To me, the 'punch' and 'kiss' evoked DV.

I know it is unfathomable to a lot of posters here, but also it's very apparent to many as well.

LRDtheFeministDude Sun 02-Dec-12 11:46:49

I imagine exhalting bollocks would be quite painful actually, kickass, it's true.

Can I say something?

If he'd been talking about someone's husband (or wife) who 'should' punch them then kiss them, he would have been talking literally about domestic violence. Advocating it, in fact (that is what the grammar is doing in the sentence).

If he's talking about sauce, he's using an image. It is not possible to take an image 'literally'. We are all taking it metaphorically. Some of us are offended by the metaphor and others are not. We all know it refers to the sauce, and none of us think it refers literally to DV. However, there is no way to interpret this phrase without understanding that, as a metaphor, it refers to violence followed by 'a little kiss'. This is an image that is strongly suggestive of DV.

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