to dump my BF for going with a prostitute...(489 Posts)
... 24 years ago.
On a lads holiday to Amsterdam.
More info needed. Were you with him then? Why has he told you now?
There is another thread on this, right?
That is a long time ago
Was it a one off?
Yes you would be unreasonable - I was an entirely different person 24 years ago.
If he now understands why it was wrong, is ashamed and remorseful then surely it's possible to move on.
I think it's nice that you still call him your boyfriend after 24 years- I'd feel a bit long in the tooth for that myself .
I can see how it would alter your view of somebody, even years later, and that you might not want to stay together. How do you feel about it?
Depends - was it before you got together?
We weren't together then. Only been together 8 months.
Yes, I started a thread in relationships but wanted to gauge wider opinion so started a thread here too, (sorry if this is bad form, not sure of the etiquette, long time lurker, seldom post.)
I don't think it's bad form exactly, but you are more likely to get people being rather harsh with you here, and if you are feeling fragile, that's really not what you need. You don't tend to get the most sensitive cross-section of people on mumsnet here.
Would you perhaps be better off bumping your thread in Relationships and reporting this one to ask for it to be deleted?
How old was he at the time?
i am guessing you were not with him
if it makes you feel uncomfortable that is the way you feel is that going to change? yes we all have a past but some put limits on what they find someone has done in their past and some don't or are not as fussed
i went out with a guy for a few years i knew he had used prostitutes on a trip to amsterdam it was about 5 years before i knew him but it bothered me i did not want to be with a man who thinks it is ok to pay a women to have sex. tbh i know if he went again he would do the same thing if i felt his views had changed it may not have bothered me quite so much
Depends on what his attitude towards it is now. if he was ashamed / remorseful then no.
If he thought it was a bit of a laugh I'd explain why it was massively problematic (I.e. odds are her consent was not meaningful, power dynamics etc).
If after that he still thought it was acceptable / a laugh / no big deal then he wouldn't ultimately be the kind of person I would want to spend my life with.
It was 24 years ago. It's not worth dumping someone over. I think a lot of middle-aged men have similar skeletons in their closets if you look hard enough.
I think he is ashamed. He only did it once and kept begging me not to tell anyone.
If you dump him YABU. It is only sex that he paid for
and probably not for the last time in his life.
Unless you feel it's an indication of his attitude to women today...
Or if he is a total loser generally and you are looking for a reason to dump him
If it predates your relationship and you think he has changed a lot in the interim, I'd try to get past it, tbh. I do think it's a pretty unpleasant skeleton to have, but if he respects your views on it now and regrets it, then it seems very hard on you especially, but both of you, to let go of all those years together. How is the relationship more generally?
I was all set to say no yanbu because I ahte to think about men buying vulnerable women like they're a commodity. It shows a total lack of respect for women.
But. 24 years ago is a long time ago. I would hate to be judged for some of the decisions I made 24 years ago.
"I think he is ashamed. He only did it once and kept begging me not to tell anyone. "
He's not proud of it. He doesn't defend it. I almost feel sorry for the guy! he confessed this to you and I know it is shocking and disappointing but I would forgive him. I don't think he should continue to berate himself for choices he made TWENTY FOUR YEARS AGO. Tell him to forgive himself.
YWBVU to dump him over a mistake he made 24 years ago that he has no chance of ever fixing unless its a reflection of his attitude now. As you say he is ashamed and begging you not to tell anyone I assumeit isn't. I really can't see your problem tbh. No-one is perfect and we all did silly things in our youth.
Assuming he has been honest with you and that there is no more to the story, I think the fact he only did it once 24 years ago and has not done it since is, to me at least, a pretty good indication that his views have changed on the subject.
It's up to you to decide whether the positives in the relationships outway this one indiscretion that happened a long time ago.
YABU. Most of us have done things in the past that we're not proud of, if he was frequenting brothels/girls now, then you'd do well dumping him. But for a one off 24years ago? No way. That's ALMOST my lifetime!
How did this salient fact come to your attention ?
Also...a lad's holiday to Amsterdam. Did he, as a younger, perhaps more impressionable lad, feel pressure to do it? I'm not excusing it per se...but think it may have been a one-off that he regrets. If he is fab in all other ways, I would give him a chance.
I don't think, after 8 months, you can be sure he is "fab in all other ways" tbh
At this early stage in your courting, I would dump, I think
Was he your bf 24 years ago? If so, are you still with him?
It seems entirely a matter for you. If knowing this makes him repulsive to you then no amount of people telling you you're being unfair or unreasonable is going to alter that. you can't rationalise your way out of visceral disgust.
I'll be murdered here but I just deducted 24 from my age. i WAS shagging a married man 24 years ago. I would never, EVER do that now and I am ashamed of it.
actually my maths! it was 14 years ago but it still feels a lifetime ago.
AnyFuckingDude he told me. We were chatting about our sexual pasts.
I don't really understand why and how he told you, but ...
It bothers you. A lot.
You have only been going out with him for 8 months.
I'd call it a day tbh, because you are pretty unlikely to move on from this. You won't change what happened. And you seem dissatisfied with his stance on it now. It will likely always be an issue for you.
He told me because he wanted to be honest and we were discussing our sexual pasts.
Ohhhh, I was getting the wrong end of the stick.
I thought he'd been your boyfriend for 24 years.
Hmm. I'm not sure that I'd be invested enough then to overlook it, not unless he was extremely clear that it is something he now feels is wrong. If he just 'seems' ashamed, ie he wants you to shut up about it, then that wouldn't make me feel confident enough in his character.
I would dump.
I was a different person as a youngster but I still had lines that I wouldn't cross.
OP, being honest is a way of testing the waters with someone new.
This one's not for you.
I am all for honesty in a relationship but some things just can't be unlearned, can they ?
I live in Amsterdam.
So I have to get to work, <at 9 a.m.>
I <can> go through the red light district.
I wouldn't want any man who goes to prostitutes basically.
<shows a lack of respect for women>
<and their own sexual health>
I would end the relationship. Which probably seems harsh but it would change the way I looked at him. I wouldn't want a relationship with the type of man that though paying to abuse a woman's body was an ok thing to do. And I'm sure he could have changed etc, but I couldn't unknow what I now knew so it would be over for me.
Put it this way, OP. If I learned my husband of 19 years and father of my two dc had slept with a prostitute before I met him, I would leave him.
There is a range of answers you are going to get here. Some women wouldn't dump a bloke if he slept with a prostitute yesterday.
It's what you can live with, not us.
Might he have been lonely and was desperate for some companionship?.
The thing is, if I dump him because of this, it could make him conceal this fact from future partners. I know I'm over thinking but maybe I should find a different reason...for the sake of sisterhood...
Breaking up a family over something that happened before you even met is a ridiculous thing. How do you justify that to your kids?
AFD, would you be upset that he had concealed that fact for 19yrs?
If you're lonely and desperate for companionship, you can do any number of things. Get a hobby, search lonely hearts for a likeminded being, get a hamster, pick up a random in a bar for a quick 1-2 if you must.
Shagging a prostitute is the action of a man who wants sex with someone who will be completely under their control because they're getting paid for it and someone who wants sex but doesn't want any emotion to come into it. This speaks volumes about a person's character, IMO.
YerMaw - I doubt he was desperate for company, he was on a holiday with his mates
Even having to think, Is he HIV-negative? Can I ever have a baby with this man? will wear you down.
OTOH You might part with him whilst offering the very useful sound advice that he needs to guarantee his sexual health and that of potential future partners, and then learn to understand that this is not like mentioning a quick shag when young at a party.
God I don't know.
the logical part of my mind says it was 24 years ago and he sounds ashamed of what he did. I am 30 and am ashamed of mistakes i have made in the last few years and would hate to be judged on who I used to be.
Then I think its a line that shouldn't be crossed.
then I think that 24 years ago it was more 'acceptable'. well not acceptable but there is a distinct change in opinion towards sex worker in the last 20 years.
Then if he was really young did he give into peer pressure.
I really don't know.
What I would say is that its a bit unfair to ask for total honesty then dump hm because you don't like it. How would you felt if you told him you deepest, darkest secret and he dumped you? would you understand and accept it?
"Breaking up a family over something that happened before you even met is a ridiculous thing. How do you justify that to your kids?"
That's a daft statement.
They've been together 8 months so they don't have kids together and in any case, if DH said to me "Oh I meant to say, in 1997 I beat up a pakistani bloke because I hate those people" it would totally taint my opinion of him.
I would justify this to my child by saying "Daddy isn't the person that mummy thought he was"
But it would be the fact he did it in the first place that was the dealbreaker
So...dumping offence for me for both the deceit and the action (in that hypothetical situation)
Cozy...the Op is not in a "family" with this bloke, she's been with him only 8 months, or are you talking about someone else's opinion on this thread ? Because tbh, it's the op that is asking for advice and support here
LineRunner - he has had sexual health MOTs since, he is fine health wise.
Might he have been lonely and was desperate for some companionship?.
Hallo! You could always phone a friend or neighbour for a chat!
That is no excuse for abusing some poor woman who has probably been trafficked!
Just a minute OP
If you dump him for this you absolutely must tell him why
Anything else will not teach him a thing. Men who do this need to know there are some women who will not tolerate this behaviour, full stop.
How he behaves in the future with other women is not your concern...that is for his own conscience to deal with. You look to your own.
I'm pleased about the sexual health MOTs, OP. Make sure you see them.
Everything AF and Bupcakes said
Yuck. Just yuck.
AFD - but, even if he learns that there are women who will not tolerate this behaviour, he can't do anything about it now can he? He can't change what he did. Do you believe in forgiveness, second chances?
If he believes that it was wrong, and he is ashamed....
My head is a mess.....I keep swinging from forgiveness to condemnation
Good god don't be so daft... Havnt you done stuff you bitterly regretted in your life? Are you young? You sound it..
Like I said, snail, it's what you can or cannot live with
There are many, many men who have never used prostitutes.
There's that old cliche. When a man tells you what he is, listen
I expect someone will come along to say "but maybe another man wouldn't tell you what he had done"
well, like I said, I value honesty... but I also have other values and the two can mutually exist
LineRunner - how do I see a sexual health MOT? Do you get a certificate???!!!
I don't think it matters what strangers on the internet think about it. You need to think if it's a big deal for you
I think the STI screen is a red herring, tbh
if you have already slept with him without both of you being tested, you have potentially already slept with everyone he has shagged before (and vice versa)
a prostitute from 24 years ago ? Putting aside the moral issues (for a moment) there is little risk he would pass an STI to you from that specific encounter
Well, yes, I would want to see a test result and get myself tested, tbh, if there's even the slightest risk. Do you think that's unreasonable? But like others say, it's about you.
Also, when someone says "I have regular STI tests" it means they're admitting to being, errrr, free and easy with the lovin'.
THAT alone would make me run a mile.
Look love, to be honest, there are men out there that don't make you feel this shit and conflicted after eight months together. It shouldn't be that much hard work.
Anyway, that's just one of my feelings about things.
I also know that I would never move on from a partner telling me that he had had sex with a young woman who was paid to lie there and let him have sex with her.
And possibly very very unhappy about having to do it, whilst pretending otherwise.
'Do you believe in forgiveness, second chances? '
You don't owe this guy shit. You've been together for 8 months. It shouldn't be this hard right now. Move on.
Why do you personally owe him a a "second chance" though
This is about you not him and his bad choices.
Yes YWBVVVU to dump someone for sleeping with a pro YEARS ago BEFORE you got together. Honestly. Bet he wishes he hadn't told you.
He didn't 'sleep with her'. He paid money to hire her body to fuck.
That's right, whois. The OP, the woman, is to blame for her DP paying someone for a fuck. Not him for making that choice.
The point of doing the 'confessional' about previous sexual history is surely to test the waters, so that anything that is unacceptable to either party comes out early and can, actually, be acted on.
Mostly, couples find that stories are what they are and don't matter.
Sometimes, a little bell or even big bloody red klaxon goes off for one of the people involved.
It would be daft to ignore that, surely?
He had an STI check after a condom failed a few years ago. He doesn't have them regularly. The sex with the prostitute was safe sex.
The thing is, I am really conflicted about this. I look on mn fairly often, I am aware of red flags, have not seen any up to now (apart from this obvs), he is a really dedicated father, very kind, generous, fair, reasonable, calm etc. I have seen him in very stressful situations (car broken down etc) and he hasn't been angry or anything.
The reason that I am conflicted is that everything else has been great. No arguments, we spend 2/3 days a week together, talk everyday. He is not perfect in a scarily unrealistic way, he has the very occasional grumble and is very normal in that respect. I believe him to be genuine and sincere, he has lots of friends, a great relationship with his family.
We get on really well, have loads in common, make each other laugh, talk for hours, really enjoy each other's company...
...and he fucked a prostitute 24 years ago.
I know I don't owe him anything , whether that be a second chance, a relationship etc.
I'm talking generally about forgiveness and second chances in life. Does a mistake 24 yrs ago define a person? Can people change?
Think of it like this, love
I suppose there are some women that are able to stay in relationships with men that have used prostitutes. Are you one of them ? Did you think you ever would settle for that ?
there are lots of men that don't lose their temper when the car breaks down, that are pleasant family men. You could find one that hadn't used prostitutes...there are plenty of them
I don't think this should be about what a load of people on Mumsnet think. You know him and it's for you to decide if the man he is now is more important than the man who did this before you met him. If you, not anyone else, can't move on from the revelation, you say goodbye. If the man he is now is someone you can see yourself with long term, you continue the relationship.
Good luck with making the decision.
What AF said.
Ultimately, it is up to you. You might be able to live with this. The shock may wear off and you may realise that the relationship is worth more than the weight of your DP's past.
Some women, like me, couldn't deal with that.
It is up to you. No-one can give you answers.
My sisters husband did this when he was in the army. They all did it and he freely admits that he did it because he would have felt like an idiot if he hadnt. It took my sister a long time to get her head around it, as it was years before they got together, so she wasnt sure that she had the right to be upset.
But as she said, it meant that he wasnt the person she thought he was, but eventually came to realise that that might have been him then, but it isnt him now. He has never given her any reason to doubt him, they are truly, vomit inducingly, devoted after 16 years of marriage and 20 years of being together.
He was a different person then, in 24 years he has grown up, become a father, had long term relationships and changed. Are you the same person you were 24 years ago?
I would be inclined to try and let this go. I am not a fan of any man who uses prostitutes but there is a world of difference between a mistake made when young, to be being a habitual buyer of womens bodies. He is ashamed and embarrassed, and I think that you should give him a chance.
It's up to you. You dont owe him anything so go with your gut. It would be a deal breaker for me but life's not always black and white.
Why the assumption that he is a women hating bastard?
He used a prostitute once, many years ago when young and stupid. He has had 24 in which to carry on using them, and he hasnt done it. Why? Because he doesnt want to.
My BIL said it was the single worst sexual experience of his life, and he would rather spend the rest of his life celibate than do it again. He isnt a hater user or abuser of women, he adores my sister and that incident is a huge regret for him.
People make mistakes, it doesnt define them for the rest of their lives, as long as they learn from those mistakes and it sounds like the OPs OH has done just that.
OP, you can't generalise it though, can you ?
You know what you know. To widen out the question to "can people change" is to rationalise it.
Of course people can chage...but you and he can't change what he did
Bogey...who said he was "a woman hating bastard" ?
he has been called what he is on this thread...a man that has paid a woman to fuck her, a user of prostitutes. For me, that is all I would need to know. I don't need to call him a woman-hating bastard, because it is implicit for me...but not for everyone
What I see here, though, is a woman trying very hard to over-ride her natural instinct. I wouldn't ever encourage that...no matter what the instigating factor was.
It comes down to what you can live with.
I do think there is a conversation to be had with him if it was a one off and he is still thoroughly ashamed. I'm not sure I could get past it, but I think that a drunken mistake/goaded by friends kind of encounter is not the same as someone who regularly uses sex workers.
What were the circumstances? How does he feel about prostitution in general? Would he, for example, think it ok to go to a lapdancing club? What is his general attitude to women?
I understand that you are conflicted and whilst my gut instinct is 'dump' - I do think that if it was a one off 24 years ago, it might be worth talking about with him so you can make a decision as to whether the person you are with has the same morals as the man he was 24 years ago.
FGS, you should never judge one person on ONE action, especially when it was such a long time ago.
You should judge a person by how they behave NOW. You should look at them as a whole person and as a person who isn't perfect and who will have done some mistakes in the past.
Just as everyone else
OP your bf is ashamed of it. Does it not tell you enough about him? Don't you think that the fact he has changed from seeing a prostitute once to being ashamed of it is actually telling you more about him than the fact he made a mistake all those years ago? Starting with the fact he is able to self critical and change? Isn't that what we are all told to do, that as we go along in life, we are changing and growing up. That mistakes are there to teach us something that it is the teaching and the fat that we have learnt that is important? Or are we all supposed to lower our heads in shame to all the stupid and shameful things we have done in the past?
Can you not think yourself of some very shameful things you have done yourself 24 years ago? Or even 10 years ago?
because I know that in all that time, I have done a hell of a growing up. And I hope I will continue to do so for the next 24 years. And I also hope that people will judge me on who I have become rather than on who I was at that time.
No one said it but it has been implied.
He was young, it was a very long time ago and he clearly regrets it. I just dont think that you can lump him in with men that do this regularly and with no regard for the women they buy. If this was yesterday, or last week, or last year then I wouldnt be saying what I did.
But he was a different person then, as was my BIL. As I said, he has had 24 years to repeat the experience and has chosen not to. That says to me that he didnt like it, doesnt want to do it again and has learned from his mistake. I refuse to condemn someone on one mistake made in the inexperience of youth.
I usually agree with you AF, as you know but today I feel that this is not black and white.
24 years is such a long time, none of use are the people we were 24 years ago, and for that I am glad as I was a fucking idiot in my early 20's I am now a respectable (ish) mother of 6 with her own home and business. I am no longer the selfish thoughtless moron I was then. I am sure he has changed too, and I just think that he should be given a chance to prove that if the OP is happy with him in every other way.
AF I am by your attitude on this thread.
You are one of the people who are shouting LTB and 'He is a women hater' whilst refusing to recognize that thankfully people change.
If this guy had been a regular user of prostitute. If this was the case now. If he had shown no remorse whatsoever for what he did, you would have had a point.
But this is NOT the case here
I think this really is a chance for the OP to withdraw sadly from a new relationship, because she is unhappy with this. None of it is her fault.
We seem to be saying the same bogey.
Almost word for word Following!
tao please quote where I am "shouting LTB" and "he is a woman hater"
or at least address your complaints about my opinion (which has been sought by the OP) to all the other women on this thread that share them
bogey, we don't have to agree about everything
If a friend of mine had done this 24 years ago, and regretted it, no I wouldn't define them by it and I'd try not to judge. Yes people can and do change.
But, I'd never be in a relationship with someone that had paid for sex. My choice. I don't owe anyone a relationship, and nor, after 8 months, does the OP owe her partner her relationship.
She is perfectly entitled to break up with him for any reason, or, indeed, no reason at all.
I did some shocking things a 1/4 of a century ago.
I have grown up, my attitude has changed and if I could have my time again I wouldn't have made the choices I did. It was down to immaturity on behalf, peer pressure and being daft.
With my eyes now looking at the past I realise how stupid I was.
It would be awful if all my friends and family judged me and walked away from me because of stupidity to how I am now.
I don't think this one act is a true reflection of who he is or was, now or back then.
He was on a lads holiday. He probably felt really pressured into it. If it was 24 years ago he must have been pretty young unless he is 70. If you had told me he used to go on regular sex holidays to Thailand that would be a bit different of course.
I engaged in sexual activity when I was younger because of peer pressure. Admittedly I wasn't doing it with prostitutes, but I reckon your dp may have been equally as terrified, and maybe he didn't fully understand the implications of his actions?
I am 30 now and it has only been over the last few years that I have come to realise that women in the sex industry are being abused and exploited, I naively probably used to think they were in it of their own free will and choice.
Why not start a conversation on the sex industry in general and gauge his response and take it from there? Otherwise you are only speculating as to what his values are now.
I do share that opinion on all the women on this thread that say that she should consider this guy to be a women hater.
You said so
I don't need to call him a woman-hating bastard, because it is implicit for me.
And whilst what has been done can not be undone, it is crazy to refuse to see that people do change and that they can change for the best.
Unsless you think that people are either good or bad, black and white idea of the world. Which I didn't think you had.
winter...no-one is advocating that all of this bloke's friends and family walk away from him
op asked opinions on whether she is BU for ending a fledgling sexual relationship upon the revelation of this information
some people think she would NBU to do that
quite a few people are getting a little hectic about promoting men's choices to use prostitutes in their youth (like seeing posts that don't exist)
strangely, the people who are getting least in a flap about it are the ones who advocate her calmly walking away
OP YANBU to want to walk away, or to walk away. I'n sorry this dilemma has come your way. Only you know if you can get past it. I would suspect not.
this post is to you tao
you quoted me there out of context
what I said was in reply to another poster who said people were calling him a woman-hating bastard (and those words had not been used)
yes, it is implicit for me...but I didn't say that on the thread until the accusation was put out there
if the fact that he went with a prostitute means that he's not the person you thought he was, then let him go.
i do wonder why he bothered to tell you.
Honestly, I think I would at least need to time to think. People make mistakes when they're young of course,but if it doesn't sit well with you now,it never will. It depends on how you feel about him other than that really.
Paying a prostitute for sex is a million miles away from going to a lap dancing club/watching porn to me personally. The latter two I could get over without issue. Paying a prostitute is different. Perhaps because they are so much more vulnerable.
I am getting wound up because I have made so very big mistakes in my time, and thankfully I am not getting judged now for what I did 20 years ago. I have changed, most people do change and grow up, and I am a little surprised at how many people will judge a (lets say) 45 year old man for something he did as a 21 year old on a lads holiday.
It was wrong, nobody would argue that it was wrong and no one is saying that it a mans right to use prostitutes, whatever his age. But, I am saying it is wrong to assume that one mistake defines a person for the rest of their lives, especially if they regret it, have learned from it and have never repeated it.
Can you step back from making a decision for a few days and see how it just sits with you? That may help you work out whether it's something you can move on from or not. If you can't get it out of your mind, you may have your answer.
See I would never ever approve the use of prostitute. Going to see a prostitute is certainly a very crap choice re spending your time in a lad's hols.
I can see that the OP doesn't approve about it either.
I can also see that her bf doesn't approve about it either.
I can see that the OP's bf has changed to how he was 24 years ago.
I can see that this is a difficult dilemma for the OP as she battling to see if there are some actions that can never be forgiven, regardless of the circumstances and if seeing prostitute is one of them.
I can see some posters think that this an unforgivable action and should never ever be forgiven or forgotten about.
And I can only see that this man is different now from who he was 24 years ago.
I can only see a man who had the opportunity to go and see prostitute for the last 24 years and has chosen not to do so.
I can only see that sometimes people make mistakes and should spend their lives being beaten about it.
Hearing of 'women haters' etc... is making me think that some posters here are over reacting to say the least.
tao it's you that keeps using the term "women haters", seriously
and yes, before you quote me again, I am repeating what you said
Interesting thread. My first reaction to all the advice to leave him was "OMG, get a life - it was 24 years ago!" but then on reflection, I think probably anyone has some lines in the sand that can last that long. I'm sure that if I got into a relationship with someone and then found out they were a serial killer or child rapist 24 years ago, I wouldn't be able to stay not matter how much they'd changed or regretted it. So it's really just a question of what your indelible lines are. Some people probably feel as absolute in their hatred of men who use prostitutes as I feel about those things. Only you can decide whether you do.
I would probably say that you should try and look at it not from the POV of how you view prostitution now, but how HE did THEN. If he was highly aware of the problems with it and educated in feminist critiques of it, and still did it anyway because he didn't care, that would be one thing. But it sounds more like he was young and stupid and under peer pressure and just didn't know much. You don't know the exact situation of the individual prostitute he went to, or anything much specific about it.
I think on balance I'd be reluctant to say that a man who has once crossed that line is permanently, fundamentally different from men who haven't, so I wouldn't advise leaving him in the hope of finding one on the other side of the line.
AF I completely got your post was for me....
And no I don't think it was out of context. because that exactly what your posts were all saying implicitly. As you have just recognized now.
What you 'haven't' said was just as clear as what you have said.
But I am struggling to see how this is 'getting in flap' unless of course, having a different opinion than you and saying out loud is getting in flap.
I can totally related to bogey and others on here who are horrified at the idea that the mistakes they've made 20 years ago are still hanging over their head and can not and will not be forgotten.
Actually I am sure you are too. Unless you have never made any mistakes yourselves?
A few xpost here.
You used the term first not me....
Shall I understand then that you do not think of men who use prostitute as 'women haters'?
Or did I understand well in saying that you DO think that men who use prostitute are like this?
In which case, it should be fair to read your posts with that in mind?
Or is it the term itself that is an issue to you?
Just speed-read the whole thread, so apologies if I've missed anything
To me the key thing is the 24 years ago. OP you haven't mentioned BF's age that I've seen, I'm assuming 40 something?
I squirm with embarrassment about some of the stuff I did when I was late teens/twenty something (and a few things I did in my thirties). Often I did it to impress my so called mates. Obviously going with a prostitute is not something slightly drunk, hyped up young women are likely to be egged on to do, but I can quite see equivalent young men ending up doing it.
You should make your judgement call on the man you know now, not the idiotic twenty something out on the lash in 1988.
I tend to agree with your logic. I strongly suspect that if he was a 20 year old lad he probably hadn't really thought through the implications of prostitution. He was scared of looking a wuss in front of his mates and was quite possibly under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
Its not as if he is trying to excuse it now or laughing it off as laddish high spirits. I don't think I would take an absolute position on this I would have to weigh up what his views were at the time and what they are now.
I guess what it comes down to you is on what level of wrongdoing you place the use of prostituted women
everybody's "hierarchy" is different
personally, I place it pretty high on the list of deal breakers
others do not
OP would not BU to view this as a deal breaker...but some of you are trying to tell her that she is (or rather throwing buns at other posters who are simply giving their opinion...as asked for by the op, as I said before)
so, spats between correspondents aside, this is a black and white issue (on this thread aside)
she is BU, or she is not BU
one of those stances is telling her what she should do (no! You couldn't possibly dump him for what he did 24 years ago!)...the other stance is saying "you have a choice"
which is the most reasonable one ? Answers on a postcard, preferably without words put in mouths, please.
tao to be perfectly precise, it was bogey that used the term first, and I was reflecting it back at her
then you picked up on it
I guess what it comes down to you is on what level of wrongdoing you place the use of prostituted women
I think for me there would be a qualification on that statement along the lines of "the use of prostituted women understanding the reality of prostitution".
In other words I might accept a level of ignorance of the reality of prostitution at the age of 18 I probably would be less convinced if the man was 28 at the time.
Tao - thanks for summarising. I found that helpful.
I do need some time to think about this, and I need another conversation with him (pref not in the wee small hours) to get a better idea of what his views are before I make any decision. He has a lot of good points. Very good points. I do need to decide what my boundaries are. I guess it comes down to:
Is he a misogynistic wanker? (Today, now. Not back then)
Did he fuck up 24 yrs ago but now realises that what he did was exploitative and misogynistic?
and chaz, just to add my extra little bit to what you said...some things really are unforgiveable, for some people
Sounds a good plan, OP. I don't envy your position but hope you make the right decision for you.
Just answered in the other thread.
Without going back in time 24 years and interviewing the prostitute in question, we will never know the facts of her life, and she's the only one he has any responsibility for.
He was a kid. It's in the past. It's what happens next that matters and beating him up on that long ago incident is useless.
Yes totally unreasonable.
On the basis that this was 24 years ago, before you met, and he wouldn't do it again. People make mistakes. In the scale of things, this is a small one.
Agreed. I think I would find this a challenging situation and now I am in my 40's I would lose all respect for anyone of my acquaintances who used a prostitute now and would distance myself from them.
When I was 18 I was pretty ignorant of the reality of prostitution so I assume that most of the blokes of my age were too. I cringe to think that in 1990 Pretty Woman was such a big hit and I had female friends who loved the film.
chaz, there are still many women that would place that film in their top ten favourites
The thing with dealbreakers is, I'm not sure if a one off occurrence, 20 odd yrs ago, and never repeated, could or should be a deal breaker.
I think his current attitude/opinion is more important/crucial.
that's your choice, see
and you do have one
Pretty Woman, Beauty and the Beast - terrible films
Thanks everyone, Feeling stronger and thinking more clearly now. Need some kip [yawn]
Beauty and the Beast snail? There's no glamourising prostitution in that...is there?
come back and tell us how you get on x
No, but it's abusive and misogynistic and I hate it
Oh I see!
Do let us know what you decide to do. All the best.
(most disney films are anathema to femisnism)
I'd be admiring his honesty and thankful that he has changed enough to realise that this behaviour should be despised.
However, this isn't about me - it's about whether or not you'll be haunted by this knowledge.
Oh dont get me started on Disney..........
I've never viewed Disney films as being anything more than films for children <shuffles away feeling a bit stupid>
What 'fortyplus' said.
... and it was 24 years ago for the love of god.
Alis as did I until it was pointed out to me....
Who is always the victim?
Who is saved by the "handsome" prince?
Who, even in the films with a "strong" female character such as Fiona in Shrek, is made happy by being wanted by a male character?
Who is the one who is confused and left bereft until she finds out that he loves her?
Who was never sure of their own identity or abilities or strengths until they met their prince?
Who is never shown as saving herself, being sure of herself, being happy on her own or taking control of her own destiny?
Snow White, Cinderella, Belle, Jasmine, Ariel, Wendy, Fiona (OK, not disney but it counts!), Sleeping Beauty...the ultimate imo, she was dead until he awakened her , even Duchess in Aristocats!
Thank goodness Miss Piggy had attitude before Disney bought them! She loves Kermy, but she kicks him to the kerb if he doesnt deliver!
Bogey everything you've said is true. I just never questioned it. But suppose I was a child when I was watching them and haven't had children yet,so haven't thought about them much as an adult iyswim?
I do kwym. I was exactly the same until a friend pointed it out to me. The women need rescuing in some way, and then the man rescues them. Also, the father/daughter relationships are suspect. Either the father is dead so she is cast adrift without a male in her life, or he is in some way needy and she feels she must look after him and sacrifice herself (Belle being the prime example
). And the step mothers incite hatred of other women who are deemed a threat.
Its not until its pointed out that we see it, and thats the big problem. We have been so conditioned in the concept of woman as victim/man as saviour that we never questioned it!
I wonder if Disney will ever do a film where the heroine says "thanks but no thanks" to the hero?
OR... a same sex relationship movie
How about The Lion King? I'm struggling to find any objections to that one.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
The Lion King
King in charge, brother doesnt like it. Kings wife has Prince, wife does the work, king takes credit at naming, woman stands behind. Kings Brother not happy. King killed by brother, prince flees. Wife and all other women subjugated, forced to find food and produce and feed babies.
One of the women finds prince. Prince is shown by woman he is needed, goes back, saves women by killing Brother, marries woman who found him, gets her pregnant and then takes the glory at his "naming". Prince has saved all women and one in particular.
And have you noticed?
Princess all bitching it out, but men in charge. Thats Disney for you.
Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women wouldnt put up with
Taken from Fortyplus link
Prostitutes are not real women?
I stand by what I said to the OP, but that has saddened and angered me beyond words.
Sorry, back again.
Interesting that the higher up the financial ladder these men are, the less likely they are to buy women. That suggests to me that they are still buying women but they are doing it in other ways, via paying the rent, expensive shopping trips etc. Those on a lower income cant afford to buy women so much so they have a lower percentage, but the middle income men (£20-50K) cant afford to have a "kept woman" squirreled away somewhere, so they use prostitutes the most.
I do wonder how many OW realise that they are prostitutes by any other name?
Not read all of the thread but I agree that you need to take time about this and decide if you can deal with this or not. Maybe try and find out a bit more first without leading him into what you want to hear (whether he thinks its acceptable, was pressured etc)
No judgement please ladies, I'm just trying to help.
My dp regularly used prostitutes before we got together. Once I found out, it was a MAJOR issue for about 6months - it would keep me awake at night, made me feel sick and I was very, very angry. We are two years in now and while I wouldn't say it was still an issue, it does still haunt me from time to time and all those old feeling come back.
I think what I am trying to say is, if you can accept it because he was young, maybe pressured into it etc and you know that you can overcome it and NOT hold it against him in the future, then fine.
But if you think that maybe it will keep niggling away at you and possibly break you up further down the line then maybe call it a day.
Thoughts are with you because I know how bloody horrible this is, and hope my input was useful
"When I was 18 I was pretty ignorant of the reality of prostitution so I assume that most of the blokes of my age were too."
Unless they didn't realise that prostitution meant buying a woman's body so you could fuck it, they knew enough.
I'm with Bupcakes. It's like finding out he has an embarrassing past as a racist.
You owe him nothing here.
All begs the question - is honesty the best policy after all?
'Lots of men go to prostitutes so they can do things to them that real women wouldnt put up with'
That is just one of the comments from men justifying why they used prostitutes and of course it's abhorrent.
However I stand by my earlier comment that OP's dp is expressing extreme remorse for what is apparently a one-off act that occurred when young and influenced by his peer group. He has now so clearly become a better, nicer person.
24 years to learn from his mistake. 24 years ago the world was a different place - sexist and racist remarks were commonly seen as acceptable in the workplace. We've all moved on.
Supposing he'd been convicted of drink driving 24 years ago but had since given up alcohol? An act that we would all despise but susequent action to address the fault. He can't 'undo' having sex with a prostitute, but he's so clearly very disturbed by it that I believe it doesn't make him a bad person. People didn't have the same awareness back then of the coercion/drug use/violence etc that we now know is often associated with prostitution.
It should be up to the op to judge whether or not she can live with this.
It's like finding out he has an embarrassing past as a racist.
yes it is. But honestly I still can't decide if, after 24 years, a person should still be punished for past mistakes.
Especially if the person knows it was wrong and a mistake.
"is honesty the best policy after all?"
Surely this man deserves a girlfriend who doesn't think buying other humans is OK when you're young?
It's not punishment though, is it?
It's just deciding not to consort with people who play fast and loose with consent.
To me its punishment.
Its saying 'i no longer want to be with you because of a mistake you made a quarter of a century ago'
buts ita up to the op. I can see both sides of the argument.
While I absolutely hate men who use prostitutes. I also think that people make mistakes. Good people make massive mistakes.
24 years ago... that's nearly my whole life time. How old was he at the time? I think that makes all the difference...
If my boyfriend told me this I'd be judging him on his current character. You can learn a HELL of a lot in 24 years. If it was in the last 5 years then I wouldn't even consider hearing him out, but 24 years... you need to discuss it seriously but I wouldn't be writing him off without sounding it out first.
That's why I commented on Pretty Woman as it would have been out around the same time. At 18 (in the late 1980's early 1990's) I think a lot of people would have bought into the "happy hooker" myth i.e. that prostitution is merely a lifestyle choice so going to a prostitute doesn't harm anyone. Pretty Woman grossed over $400m.
As a mature adult I see things very differently but I was trying to think back to how I thought as a young woman and given that my level of awareness was pretty low I assume that my male friends of the same age weren't any more clued up.
As for the racist comparative... A lot of my friends are heavily involved with anti fascists organisations, very politically motivated and liberal. Several of them have confessed they had a very brief stint with right wing racist organisations when they were very young. They were brainwashed as teenagers by the ring leaders who target them. They quickly realised that those beliefs were wrong and moved to the other extreme. I certainly don't blame them for that, but the older right wing leaders who target young teenagers because they can only recruit complete idiots or naive teenagers.
In the same way, young teenagers/naive young adults are targeted and under more peer pressure from the sex industry.
The thing is, I believe that he did think that it was a lifestyle choice, as portrayed in pretty woman. However, it hasn't sat comfortably with him, hence him keeping it a secret and begging me not to tell anyone etc. so I guess that deep down he knew that he was buying into a myth.
Things that I have done in the past, that I am ashamed of, I try to ignore/forget about and when they pop up I suppose I try to justify them in my own mind. I don't go out of my way to research exactly how terrible my acts were and I don't force myself to face up to the consequences. I try to forgive myself and get on with life.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to those on here definitely saying it would be a deal breaker, even after being with someone for years and breaking up a happy marriage or relationship. Easy to say all that behind a computer without actually having to do it. Depends on how strongly you feel about it and him. If he was very young and it was only once in the circumstances you described then I don't think it should define him forever especially if he feels bad about it now.
Sorry, it would be a no from me. I couldn't get rid of that from my head at all. Certainly after 8 months I wouldn't have enough relationship cement to make it worthwhile staying.
Give the guy a break and dump him. If you can hold a grudge about something that a person did 24 years ago when they were very young and under peer pressure and ignore all the bad things you did yourself in the past then he doesn't deserve the lifetime of misery that you will undoubtedly give him.
It's only punishment if your motivation is to punish, to cause some kind of suffering in retribution.
If you just don't want to date someone who paid to obtain a woman's consent, then that is about what you want in a partner.
If a woman chooses not to date a man with children, she is not punishing him for having children. She's just making choices about her own life.
It's a very male-centric view to see this in terms of punishment.
Good people do make mistakes.
But if a man I had previously thought was good told me he had raped a woman in the past, knowing he regretted it would not make it something I could overlook.
Some things put you into another bracket. And for me buying women is one of them.
Well for all their sakes splitting would be the best option. I am thinking the OP is looking for an excuse to dump him anyway.
And before anyone starts I would never excuse a rapist or anyone who had done that but consensual sex with a paid sex worker when very young once does not make it into the rapist category in my opinion. It makes it into the the 'was a teenage twat' category and people do grow up.
The "all women are prostitutes, at least the pros are honest about it" argument, bogey?
No, that some women may not realise that they are in fact being paid for sex, but under the guise of "love" or an affair. That the men who are providing for them think no more of them than they do a street walker, and that the problem is in the mens attitudes towards women, not the women themselves.
If you stopped for a moment and actually read it properly, you would realise that.
not all prositues are 'being used' ie slave workers or junkies. some are just ordinary women, housewives actually, doing it to earn some money, some actually enjoy it. i know this for a fact as my closes friend is one
24 years is a very long time ago. I would hate to be judged on the things I did or said ten years ago so I think YABU as long as he knows it was a bad decision and wouldn't do it again.
bogey - i don't agree, from what i know alot of very wealthy men use prostitutes
So if Pretty Woman made him buy women for sex what other 90s movies did he base his life and treatment of other humans around?
I am not saying they dont cheese, but the information on the study posted above indicates that they use them far less than the middle income bracket.
YABU it was 24 years ago, you'd be really gutted if he dumped you for sleeping with someone who he didn't like 24 years ago. Yes he did it but he also regrets it and he's clean too, a lot can happen in 24 years to change some ones personality, and at least he was honest with you about it eh.
Athing are you being deliberately obtuse?
He hasnt "based his life" around anything! The OP was simply saying that as a young man he didnt think much beyond what was put out in popular media about prostitution. He paid for sex with a prostitute and bought into the myth of the happy hooker. Reality of course is far different and he now realises what he did and that it was wrong.
Are you really so unforgiving that you wont allow someone to say "Yes, I did that and I know it was wrong. Thats why I have never done it since and wont ever do it again. I am sorry and ashamed" and give them a chance to prove themselves?
I take it you have never done anything morally dodgy in your life?
I'm merely pointing out that attitudes have changed in 24 years and to an extent people's perception of prostitution have changed although I'm not sure Belle de Jour helps.
Further people grow up and what might have seemed vaguely OK aged 18 might be deeply shaming in your 40's.
No OP I wouldn't dump him for something he did 24 years ago when obviously young, stupid and on a lads holiday which he regrets now.
I wouldn't even consider dumping him for something he did legally over 20 years before you met.
What matters the person he is now. I'm sure most people have learned a lot in 24 years of adulthood and I expect he is no different.
I'm just wondering whether he was credulous about utter bulkshit in a films, or whether he chose to listen to the ones who were telling him that of course men should buy women, since that is what they are for.
Anyone who watched the blow job scene in Pretty Woman and didn't have their stomach turned a little but instead thought "I'm gonna get me a bit if that" is not someone I want in my bed.
This is not about forgiveness. The OP isn't the one he paid to sexually assault.
Her decision is for herself and the kind of person she wants in her life.
It's a very male-centric view to see this in terms of punishment.
No its not. Its my view.
She is thinking about dumping him. She doesn't have to stay with him.
But he is currently hanging in the balance. Not knowing. That's punishment.
Can he explain to you why he is ashamed?
Is it because people might think less of him for it, see him as seedy and sordid, and so he's ashamed based on what other people might think of his behaviour (i.e shame is about protecting himself from judgement) - or is he ashamed for reasons to do with understanding the exploitation and objectification issues, i.e. shame because of what he thinks of his behaviour, based on real insight and a change of attitude?
You are missing the point about Pretty Woman. The fact that Pretty Woman was considered not only a good idea but a mainstream high earning romantic comedy gives you an idea about some of the prevailing attitudes to prostitution at the time.
FFS I was a teenager when Pretty Woman came out, I remember the prevailing attitudes to prostitution at the time.
They were very much as they are now, there just happened to be a happy hooker film in the cinemas.
Plenty of mainstream reviews of the film called it on the bullshit view of prostitutes being paid-for girlfriends who had to work hard not to fall in love with their johns.
If the message you got from Pretty Woman was that buying a woman's consent was acceptable, it was a message you were eager to hear.
There's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't dump him.
There's absolutely no reason why you should dump him.
Neither of the above is true.
So, no, YANBU to dump him, since that is the way you phrase the question, rather than AIBU to keep going out with him.
I do wonder how many of the other posters here have disclosed everything they did quarter of a century ago; and of those that haven't what would they consider as fair reasons for their DP to dump them out of hand.
I'd say get rid, since you chose to ask a bunch of anonymous folk on the internet what you should do, rather than chat more to him about your joint feelings.
I don't think the prevailing attitudes were the same 24 years ago. I was in Uni at the time Pretty Woman came out so I do remember it clearly too.
The prevailing attitudes might have been utterly unacceptable to you but to suggest they were the same then as they are now is wrong in my view.
24 yrs ago is a lomg time if it was aone off cut him some slack or even if he did it a few times many years ago . I mean i,ve never paid anyone to sleep with me but i,ve had several dodgy one night stands in my younger wilder years that i would rather forget about now i,m a happily married[nearly middle aged] mother of two
I think if my partner made a big deal about something I did 24 years ago I would dump HIM.
My dh made a similar mistake. He won't thank me for telling you but he was travelling around Thailand and went to a massage parlour. He did not intend to pay for a prostitute, he thought he was getting a Thai massage, it wasn't a particularly seedy joint. She gave him more than a massage and he went along with it but then came away feeling dirty and ashamed.
He told me this when we'd been together about 2 years. He just blurted it out and told me how ashamed he still felt but he didn't want it to be a dirty little secret.
This is a man who does not use porn, who respects women, who is a committed father and a genuinely supportive and loving husband. He made one mistake many years ago. He let his moral guard down.
I bet we've all made mistakes. I bet we have all done one thing that we are ashamed of. How would we feel if someone chose not to forgive us even after 24 years? Even if they were not directly involved?
People change ffs.
This boyfriend might still be a wanker for all we know. But he told her because he wanted to be open and honest. He didn't want to hide anything and that's an admirable trait. Most men wouldn't have mentioned it.
I get the feeling the OP just wants to dump him anyway and wonders if this is a convenient excuse.
But when you do dump him, don't tell him that it's over this. Tell him the truth. That you're just not getting on with him and can't be arsed chatting about your feelings and working through them.
(Haven't seen you around for a while - have you been MIA or have we just been on different threads?)
(working Chipping, last week of the month always hugely busy. Just dipping in and out really )
A young man, drunk, in Amsterdam, being egged on/pressurised by his mates.
An ashamed, more mature, otherwise decent guy who has obviously learnt by his mistake, who is honest enough to admit and tell the truth so that there are no secrets between you.
24 years ago.
What's to forgive?
Surely everybody has done things they regret and would never repeat?
You are a fool to give up something good for an admitted mistake that happened two and a half decades ago.
It's amazing the excuses that get trotted out for men paying buying women's bodies to stick their dicks in.
In reality they do it because they want to, because they think consent is something that can be obtained by coercion, because ultimately they don't think women are real people.
And they know there are a million excuses to be trotted out by society to justify it.
Because basically this is still a society that thinks women are there to be bought and sold.
Buying a prostitute is something you do and then keep a secret.
If he really got how vile it was he wouldn't be as concerned with preserving his respectable reputation as he would be with speaking out against the evil of the sex trade.
There's a big difference between being embarrassed and being truly sorry.
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
The Rhubarb, respect!!! Exactly right.
"Really? How many parents do think aspire to see their daughters enter the sex trade? I'm reckoning its very few."
Yeah, vanishingly few. Even amongst the denizens of punternet.
It's other people's daughters you can pay to fuck. Even better if they're foreign.
"And many prostitutes actually choose do this of their own volition, free will or whatever you want to call it."
Yes, but once there is payment there is coercion.
Anyone who is happy to penetrate someone they had to pay to allow them to do it is a defective human being.
Surely everybody has done things they regret and would never repeat?
Yes - but I would never speak about them apart from, maybe, to myself in the dark of the night. On some nights.
I'm sorry snailfiddler. The fact that he's raised it with you would raise red flags with me.
Walk on by, is my advice.
He was asked to be honest cozie, I am sure he has learnt his lesson on that score now!
AThing, are you single perchance as you see life in a very black and white way?
"Surely everybody has done things they regret and would never repeat?"
Yes - but I would never speak about them apart from, maybe, to myself in the dark of the night. On some nights.
Yes, honesty in relationships is so, like, over-rated.
Life is stark, pessary. How many of your (possible) misdeeds would you talk about to others now you've moved beyond them. And No. I'm not single.
If it's an event you've moved on from, OneMoreChap, it's surely not disnonest to simply not mention it?
I was not suggesting you were single, just AThing. I don't mention my past misdeeds because I have never made the mistake of being totally honest like this poor chap has. Poor bugger.
Sorry, coze, in this case I think it would be, if you're discussing sexual past.
As OP said
He told me because he wanted to be honest and we were discussing our sexual pasts.
DW knows that I slept with a prostitute. Admittedly, I didn't know she was an ex-prostitute when I started going out with her occasionally. I found out she'd been "on the game" a while later. TBF I suppose, that was closer to 40 years ago than 24, and was before 4 other GF and XW.
Sorry, also. Why would you discuss sexual past? Maybe I'm unusual but I've never discussed it with any new lover. Why should I ? They see me as I am on the day.
Shit happens. It's how you deal with it that counts.
Dump him OP. He probably deserves better than someone who's going to trot that old gem out every single argument later.
I suppose forgiveness as well as honesty is so over-rated too.
I bet your BF has been 'at it' since you first met him.I would dump him
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
cozietoesie Thu 29-Nov-12 16:28:26
Sorry, also. Why would you discuss sexual past? Maybe I'm unusual but I've never discussed it with any new lover.
Don't know why OP did it. I did it because DW asked me about my past. It's part of who I am, and I'm not ashamed of it (although I am/was a bit ashamed of how I behaved when I learned that nice girls liked bad men), although I counselled my kids to be a tad more selective.
Forgiveness, honesty, consent... all things people on this thread think are overrated.
I love that the message people hear is not that young men shouldn't assume their rapey pasts will be written off as youthful indiscretion in the future, but that they should trick women into having relationships with them by lying about the fact that they are erstwhile punters.
Women have every right and every reason to refuse to date prostitute users.
"By that token, everyone in paid employment is coerced then..."
Arguably they are if they need to work to feed themselves.
But when the coercion leads to sexual penetration, it's a slightly different argument.
AThingInYourLife Thu 29-Nov-12 16:50:14
assume their rapey pasts
is this predicated on the theory that no prostitute can ever consent?
I have no dog in that fight FWIW, as my GF wasn't being paid [by me or anyone else, AFAIK] when we were together.
It's predicated on the fact that no punter can ever be sure that the woman he's paying is doing it willingly.
So best they are indifferent to whether they are raping the woman they bought.
Now, that's an interesting thought.
How do you ever know if the consent you have from your partner is genuine, or just well acted... (out of fear, peer pressure, religion)
OneMoreChap - isn't that a bit like the dilemma famous people have, when they don't know if people are their friends because they like them, or because they are famous? You have to use judgement and trust. If someone paid people to be their friend, they wouldn't think they were real "friends", would they? You would think they'd be aware of the transaction? "I am paying you to act this way".
I dont know op. I have done some bad things in the past,things I would now consider to be immoral, but back then I did cross a line which I wouldn't now.
Why? I was young and thought It was all an adventure.i have changed beyond beleif.
Having said that, in my murky past i have had dealings with prostitution (not as a prostitute) and the experience a) shocked me as to the " normalness" of punters, as also opened my eyes to the bleakness if the industry. People have a totally naive view of prostitutes. I did. I dont now. If this man really gets why what he did was immoral and awful, and why it was, well maybe you can get past it.
"How do you ever know if the consent you have from your partner is genuine, or just well acted... (out of fear, peer pressure, religion)"
If your partner is afraid of you, you should know.
Agreeing to sex because of peer pressure or religious belief still counts as consenting to the act, in that you partner is not culpable.
What a punter can't know is whether they are committing a rape because the woman is afraid of someone else who is prostituting them.
As a feckless young lad of 18 I voted National Front in the 1979 general election.
I was ashamed of what I had done the moment I left the building.
I'd like to think that the way I have conducted my life since would show that I am not at all racist.
But I would be interested to hear if this would be a 'deal-breaker' for anyone here.
To be honest, if I felt a partner could not accept that mistakes and misjudgements had occured in the past, I would probably call it a day and let her search for either Mr. Perfect, or a liar who does not open up about his past.
Yeah, a history of voting for the NF would probably be a dealbreaker for me.
But this guy didn't just vote for the rapists' party. He took part in field trips.
Hardly a history! I did it once.
(Sorry, I told myself not to get too defensive)
I'll take a bet that - as a young man - this guy believedin the 'happy hooker' myth. What we really need to do is educate teenagers about the truth of the sex trade. How deeply is prostitution discussed at school?
My kids know about the evils of smoking, drinking, unwanted pregnancy and STIs but I wonder whether a teacher has ever educated them about the true cost of paying for sex.
You are like a dog with a bone aren't you AThing?!
Every man who has used a prostitute is now a rapist and you won't accept that some people DONT AGREE WITH YOU! I do not define someone by one thing they did many years ago and regret. If you do then thats fine but why do you have to try and convince the rest of us that we are wrong?!
Oh and "Rapey" ? Really?
Thanks for totally undermining the experience of those of us who have been genuinely raped.
I have been genuinely raped.
By a man with a cavalier attitude to consent.
Similar to the attitude of a man who is prepared to penetrate a woman when he can't possibly know if she consents, but thinks his money makes that OK.
Maybe he raped her. Maybe he didn't.
He didn't know then. He didn't care that he didn't know.
That puts him in the same moral position as the man who raped me.
Who (like so many rapists) would never accept that it was rape.
OP have you never done anything in your life you are ashamed of? I have done loads of things, not sure if you would consider them to be in the same league but for me they were a big deal and I felt when I got together with DH it was his right to know - he didn't care. 8 years later they are not important.
If you can really look at yourself in the mirror and say that you have never done anything you feel remotely ashamed of then go ahead and dump him because clearly, you are then morally superior. I am sure this is not the case though - most people have the odd skeleton in their closet.
Agreeing to sex because of peer pressure or religious belief still counts as consenting to the act, in that you partner is not culpable.
WTF? No, consent is consent. Your partner is irrelevant. Prat.
Why are people still banging on that she would be unreasonale to dump this bloke ?
She can dump anyone she likes, for whatever reason she likes
Some of you who are still defending a man's right to pay women for sex...you are letting your one-track mind completely cloud the issue of the original question that she asked
she could just as easily have asked "would I BU for dumping a bloke who once voted for the BNP", "would I BU for dumping a bloke who eats a sandwich while taking a shit", "would I BU for dumping a bloke that got on my nerves" ...etc
and the answer would still be "YANBU"
AThing many of us have been raped by a man who had a cavalier attitude to consent but most of us have moved on. I suggest you seek professional help. I have and know that most men are not like that. They see sex differently to women on the whole but they are not evil.
Pam, are you aware that telling another person to seek professional help is massively patronising ?
Pessary - you are telling me how I should "move on" from being raped?
Are you fucking serious?
I guess you are on a thread where it's OK to have possibly raped someone as long as it was long ago and you were young at the time.
Don't think it is terrible that he did something when he was young and stupid - although ewww! If he was still doing this however, I would dump. He is being honest with you - how did this come up?
Don't think it is terrible that he did something when he was young and stupid - although ewww! If he was still doing this however, I would dump. He is being honest with you - how did this come up?
There is another thread still current started by the OP on this very subject...has everyone seen it ?
A slightly different slant to be had on that one, as OP has gone into more detail about what this bloke actually said as justification for his actions all those years ago, and that he appears to still abide by
OP wasn't happy with his pronouncements about "it's a woman's choice to sell herself, and why shouldn't men take advantage of it" then, so unless there have been further cosy chats about his attitude to buying women's bodies, OP has been a trifle disingenous on this thread, and allowed some of you to jump to the conclusion that he is some sort of martyred reformed character rising from the depths of his shitty behaviour like some sort of Lazarus-wannabe
it's society's default position to forgive men no matter what they do, isn't it ? I refuse to buy into that, and am glad to be different (as I am sure Athinginyourlife is too)
it's society's default position to forgive men no matter what they do, isn't it ?
Is it? That's a new one on me. I can think of many things I would never forgive a man for?
Having said that, I think OP will stay with him, because after 8 months, she owes him that
Sorry should have added
My response to the other version of the thread would be that he doesn't really think he has done much wrong and is trying to blame the woman. That's not acceptable.
I am seeing it on this thread, chaz
I see it all the time, in RL
if you don't, you are walking around with your eyes closed
Women ! Eat shit ! Forgive your man anything just so you can hang onto your relationship with him
it's ok to think "no, that's not for me, see ya", really it is
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
Now I understand the context of your comment. I think there now more women are getting the confidence and financial independence to get out of bad relationships but I do understand where you are coming from.
^Sorry should have added
My response to the other version of the thread would be that he doesn't really think he has done much wrong and is trying to blame the woman. That's not acceptable.^
he must be forgiven though, mustn't he ?
when really, it's not even about forgiveness
somebody (on the other side of my argument) said "you have no right to forgive him" and I agree
it's not about him (which this thread has banged on and on and on and on about), it's about a person's right to decide what is their limit, and stick with it
chaz, have you seen the thread that akaemmafrost started about what can happen to women who have no financial independence ? It's a sobering read...and still a common problem even among the educated middle classes
Yes I have posted on it as I am the WOHP and DH is the SAHD so I have had to make sure he is financially protected rather than the other way around.
"prostitution is, and has always been regarded as a profession."
Or do you just imagine that because of the nasty misogynist phrase about it being the "oldest profession", that seeks to justify it as inevitable and natural and normal.
The word "profession" is often used loosely, but it normally refers to a high-status, well-paid job that is protected by an organisation that limits membership by restricting access to qualification.
Very, very different from prostitution.
Any (whatever you are now) - yes, you are quite right about what men must be forgiven.
And women have to have a proper "reason" for ending a relationship with a man. It's not on to dump him just because she feels like it. That's not fair.
I did mention my other thread earlier.
He hadn't really challenged his beliefs/knowledge of the sex industry etc when we were discussing this in the very early hrs of weds. However,he was embarrassed and ashamed so presumably on reflection, during the last 24yrs, he has rethought the situation a bit.
I haven't discussed it properly with him since then because he had to go to work and I've not seen him since. I will be seeing him on sat and will obviously be discussing my thoughts/feelings with him then.
I am not looking for an "excuse" to dump him. I am conflicted because everything else about him is genuinely lovely. I am getting great benefit from reading this thread and it is helping me to sort my head out about the situation.
Surely most people have a reason to end a relationship? Even if it's as simple as "I don't see this going anywhere". I don't see that women must have a reason or other otherwise must put up and shut up.
I don't think OP has to "forgive" him. If this is something that goes against what she agrees with morally then why on earth shouldn't she end the relationship? I see no reason.
Can't remember who said it sorry,but about voting for the BNP (or similar) would be something that would bother me in a partner. However long ago it was.
I think what A Thing is saying is that a man just can't know whether a prostitute is selling her body of her own free will, or whether she isn't.
It is also a fact that the VAST majority of prostitutes in "the trade" have been victims of sexual abuse.
Same with lap dancers and strippers. That is simply a fact, trust me.
Women who do "sex work" are NOT, on the whole simply women who have chosen to be a prostitute, rather than, say, a lawyer.
A whole mess of fucked-upness has already happened to them.
A man who chooses to use these kind of services chooses to perpetuate the abuse of women who are so screwed up about men and sex you wouldn't believe.
That is just a fact, not based on any hardcore feminist principle of mine, but on my own personal experience.
I haven't read the other thread, but if this man is still justifying the use of a prostitute, then I would say move on.
And, to my mind, sex is sacred. It should be consensual, intimate, and with someone you trust.
I think there a new angle on justifying using prostitues because they're doing it "willingly" has been put forward by the Belle du Jour book and the subsequent television series with Billie Piper. Secret diary of a Call Girl?
But like Pretty Woman,that's wildly inaccurate for 99.9% of prostitutes. As AThing has questioned,is it ever really consensual?
I think television series like Secret Diary of a Call Girl are sending a really dangerous message actually. Not that I think teenage girls will rush off to be prostitutes,rather it's saying that prostitutes are doing it by choice and don't need help. Maybe it is different in countries where prostitution is legal,but there are limits to how different legality can make the situation for the women in question.
Thinking about it, he is very respectful sexually and always checks verbally that i want to progress before assuming that we move on to sex. In my previous experience consent has been assumed by partners after a few months together and they have left it to me to say if I am not happy to continue.
Problem is that for every woman who enters I to prostitution of her own free will and is happy with her choice there is probably far more who stumble upon it when they have nothing else, have been abused, are being coerced by their pimp or whatever. Many will be addicts and in a position where they can't give up even if they wanted to. Then you have those who are trafficked and have no choice what so ever. How would a man ever know what category the woman he is paying to be with falls under? By this alone a man using a prostitute can never be right - he is propping up the whole culture. Saying that, I still wouldn't totally forever condemn a man who had used a prostitute once when say possibly drunk or on drugs in a place like Amserdam as a young man many years ago.
As a PP said at the start of the thread, it's a matter of lines in the sand. Everyone has something they wouldn't forgive, however long ago it was. Rape, murder, genocide, there will be something. You have to decide what is across that line for you.
OP, is he ashamed because he (potentially) abused a woman, or because he did something seedy? That would be important to me.
Twenty four years ago. And you weren't even together. I am a bit of a judgey person and wouldn't normally approve. But we all make mistakes and let's hope he's learned from his one.
this thing about you "not even being together" has come up a few times
if your moral line in the sand is you do not consort with men who use prostituted women, it makes no difference at all
that's like saying "it's ok to do this, but not if you are partnered with me"
which would be rather hypocritical if your objection to this behaviour was a moral one
IMO there is a difference between men who sometimes or regularly use prostitutes and think nothing of it and a young guy 24 years ago who went with a prostitute once on a lads trip to Amsterdam when probably under the influence of drink and drugs. Whether it would be deal breaker for me I don't know as I've never had to face that one but I still think there is a difference. I think anyone would be a full at times to use opinion on Mn as a true guide. People can spout all kinds of crap from behind their keyboard that they wouldn't necessarily follow themselves.
Have you ever been to Amsterdam and seen those repulsive gangs of rampaging drunk and drug addled young English men, leering at the women in the windows, egging each other on, going in to prove themselves.
They are like animals. Vile creatures all of them.
I would not want to be with what one of them turned into.
Even if he decided a few years later that it was a bit embarrassing (but basically OK).
I really value truth and honesty. I wonder how many people saying LTB have partners with skeletons in their closets...
snail...didn't you say you value all contributions to your thread ?
Yes I have, about 24 years ago actually. it didn't seem as you described but bizarre and a bit unsettling. I saw no rampaging gangs of drunk men acting like animals and openly leering. but I was young then and perhaps would see it differently now, perhaps I was under the influence a bit as well.
The opinions here are truthful and honest Snail.
I don't think anyone has said their DH/W/P are without flaws but that isn't what you asked either?
I hope OP is keeping this thread a secret from her boyfriend and not leaving her laptop logged onto MN
I was young too.
It made me feel ill.
I kept thinking "how can they not see how wrong this is? What is the matter with them?"
The women in the windows were completely dehumanised. Like they were fucking produce.
that would be awful AF. I hope so too!
Yes move on, you only have one life do you want it to be constrained by one act FFS?
Depends what that one act is really Pam?
As far as I know "you only live once!" is not justification for quite a few things.
Fuck off Pessary, you know nothing about my life.
Do you know OP I really don't care if you want to agonise over past wrongs with a bunch of women who have massive axes to grind. I think you should dump him TBH.
You are quite the fan of "moving on" aren't you, Pam
Let's face it...Op has to "move on", rape victims should "move on"
Perhaps if we all keep "moving on" we could all be hard-of-thinking empathy-free zones too
This thread is getting quite nasty
I really value truth and honesty.
Maybe you should show him this thread then.
What this thread shows is that some people still think men using prostitutes is no big deal and I reckon that's the real reason so many people are telling this woman to suck it up. Hell, some people are even pointing out it was okay because it is legal......just like a man raping his wife was legal in the year this bloke was paying some poor woman who would never have willingly had sex with him.
Does that make it ok?
There'll always be women who will tolerate any crap behaviour in a man as long as he wasn't doing it when he was in a relationship with her.
I'm definitely with those who think sleeping with a prostitute 24 years ago isn't that big a deal. I've known male friends who have slept with prostitutes in similar situations - men in the army, men on holiday, etc who have done it once or twice, maybe as a result of peer pressure. We've no idea whether the prostitute in this story was ever abused and although we may not like it, may well have freely consented to the transaction. And as well, it was 24 years ago. If this is your only issue with your bf, it would be incredibly harsh to dump him over this
I despise the idea of prostitution, strip clubs, porn, etc, but I don't know if I would dump him over it since it is so long ago, as long as he is remorseful and understands how wrong it was.
DH has watched porn and gotten lap dances (before me) but now that he's been educated on the issues he's horrified that he ever did.
I may well show him this thread, I have considered it, yes.
And I do value all contributions to this thread, have I implied otherwise?
I am just thinking that lots of people have said things along the lines of "poor chap he's being punished for bring honest" and I am sure that there are many people in relationships with partners who have done bad things in the past and kept it secret.
I do appreciate his honesty and the fact that I am in an informed position to consider wether I can accept his past behaviours or believe they define him forever.
The term forgiveness has been used a lot but I think acceptance is probably more relevant.
My first instinct was "yuck" and to LTB. I think I need to either accept his past or let him go. It's only fair on both of us.
BTW he was in the army at the time. To me that's irrelevant but it does seem to be a common theme when reading about others poster's experiences
Or maybe being in the army is relevant? An all male environment with lots of peer pressure and entrenched misogynistic views. But at the same time I don't really want to be going out with a "sheep" do I?
"may well have freely consented to the transaction."
Ooooh, possible consent.
Well said, badinage.
I think the army thing is quite likely a big influencing factor. it does seem common from my experience with army friends
Athing, that wasn't my point, and you know it
Christ lets make sure we all have squeaky clean pasts because god forbid we get a partner 24 years down the line....
snail said "but at the same time I don't really want to be going out with a sheep, do I?"
Um, without going over the obvious yet again, someone who may have been a sheep 24 years ago isn't necessarily a sheep now. I suspect there are few of us, male or female, who haven't succumbed to some peer pressure or just gone with the flow of a group at some time in our lives, most notably when we are younger.
He's been honest. You don't like what you heard. He obviously thinks enough of you to have been honest with something a lot of people probably would have kept hidden. Unfortunately it is something you seem unable to get past. Not your fault, not his fault. Don't string it out any longer and let the bloke go and find someone who won't judge him for something he did a lifetime ago. And you to find someone with a past that is acceptable to you.
OP, you asked a while back about the general concept of forgiveness and second chances. That got shut down a bit, but I do think it's an important point.
I think I come to this a bit differently because while being very anti-prostitution (and anti-porn, etc.) I also have known a lot -- a lot -- of people in my life who have done very bad things in their past. (Thanks to my dysfunctional upbringing and years spent in dodgy scenes.)
I personally think, especially if we are talking 20+ years ago, that the act is important but even more important is whether they have -- sorry to use a religious term -- repented of that act. Not just that they are embarrassed, but that they have really repented.
So for example, I have known some people who were involved in gangs when younger, who turned their lives around and now do a lot in their community to keep kids out of gangs.
It sounds like your boyfriend is ashamed and remorseful, but if it were me, I would want to see real repentence. For me, this would mean: A) a real understanding of why it was wrong, not just from his perspective but from the perspective of women; and B) a real determination to never again treat women misogynistically or badly. Ideally it would also include C) a yearly donation to a charity that helps women escape prostitution.
I just thought this might help in terms of framing your discussion with him. It's not really about whether you can live with his mistake, it's about whether you are comfortable with his emotional and moral reaction to committing a wrongful act. It's about whether you are living in the same ethical sphere.
If you are not convinced, let him go -- not to punish him, but because it would just mean you are not morally compatible.
Good post, dreaming
Being ashamed of something seedy because it makes you look seedy isn't the same as true contrition.
Re moving on, yes I think it is generally a good thing to put things that you cannot change behind you. Otherwise you end up sinking under the weight of all the baggage. Obviously this is not easy or indeed possible for some. I find it sad that one episode in a life can define the outcome of the rest of that life. It's like an extra punishment over and above the initial hurt.
Thanks, AThing -- yes contrition is the word I'm looking for.
For me, this would mean: A) a real understanding of why it was wrong, not just from his perspective but from the perspective of women; and B) a real determination to never again treat women misogynistically or badly. Ideally it would also include C) a yearly donation to a charity that helps women escape prostitution
God how patronising. If I were this man and my apology and my remorse were not accepted, I would be walking out of the door. It was 24 years ago. Now unless we're all perfect, I don't think we should be acting holier than thou with a little added high and mighty.
No wonder people aren't more honest, especially if they're met with such attitudes.
Yes Ghost. Don't ask for honesty if you can't handle the truth!!
Why is it patronising?
It's the difference between:
1) I'm remorseful because it makes me feel bad and seedy.
2) I'm remorseful because I contributed to an industry that harms other people.
For me personally, I would want to be clear which kind of remorseful he was.
I am not definitely not trying to be holier than thou. I have done a lot of things in my youth I am not proud of.
But let's say I told my boyfriend that when I was young and drunk I stole from shops, and I feel bad about it. But then I went on to sort of justify it and minimise the harm to the shops and just blame it on my youth.
Some people might be totally fine with that, other people might think, hang on, why is she justifying it? Why isn't she just saying it was wrong, period?
I don't think I'm the worst person in the world for what I did but I definitely don't try to justify it either. I think that's the difference. It's not clear from the OP how much her boyfriend is trying to shrug it off and that's probably why she feels uneasy.
I'd like to think that most men understood or really cared or thought about the causes and effects of prostitution but I doubt they really give it much thought whether they have ever used one or not. And I do think it's important where someone ends up in life than where they started. I've had quite an uneventful, easy life - easy for me to a degree growing up in strong and disciplined family, never having to face some of the things other folk did growing up. I actually do admire those who despite a not so good start and who possibly made bad decisions then go on to leave that behind and change their life around.
Interesting that the higher up the financial ladder these men are, the less likely they are to buy women.
What a bloody daft comment. Doubt Cynthia Payne would agree!
In the very early days of going out with DH, he went on a Stag weekend to Amsterdam. He said one of the men in the Party started acting bizarrely and was really trying to pressure others into visiting Prostitutes. He said it was like he was on a mission. He gave DH's friend, who was single, a really hard time because he believed he should be taking advantage of the situation. He couldn't understand why he wasn't interested. This man was in a relationship with two small children and slept with two prostitutes. He tried to force a very drunk Stag to follow him, pushing him through the door. As pissed as he was the groom to be stumbled out five minutes later.
It does not follow that because you are pissed and because you are in a group of men and because someone may be pressurising you, that you then 'inevitably' sleep with a prostitute. You have a choice.
When the Stag group came home they were looking at this guy in a very different light and it wasn't a good one.
It's very early days here - for me every time i got into bed with him i would be thinking of that girl and the decision he made all those years ago. And yes, people change and he was honest to tell you, but i wouldn't want to carry on.
I totally agree with that Begonia.
I wouldn't want to live in a world where there was no forgiveness, where you were judged forever by the mistakes of your youth.
But, well, blame my Catholic upbringing but I don't think it should be automatic either, I think people should really try to be contrite and where possible make up for their mistakes. Not as some kind of punishment but just as a kind of karmic rebalancing.
It's one of the 12 steps, isn't it? Going back to people you have hurt and asking forgiveness? I have had a few addict friends who have stolen from me, one of them successfully made it through the steps, and as part of it came to me one day and formally asked me to forgive him. Of course I had forgiven him but it was a really important part of his process.
I think it's treating your partner like a child, it's like a power thing. You MUST prove to me, I need more proof..
Id say if you cant accept that it happened in the past, leave him. Not put him through this unfair ti-raid.
If it was a man pressuring a woman about something in her past and wanting her to prove herself this would be a whole different thread entirely.
See, that's interesting, I really don't feel like it's a power thing at all.
I wouldn't be approaching it like you must prove this to me, more just asking what his thoughts are and then reflecting what that says about him as a person.
To use a more gender-neutral example -- several people have brought up the scenario where someone has been racist in the past. Now, can I make someone prove to me they're not a racist anymore? Not really, you can't read someone's mind. But I think, by talking to them in more detail about how they feel about what they did, you can tell a lot about whether they have really changed or whether there's something to worry about.
I do agree that if you can't accept what someone has done, you should probably move on. I just don't think you need to automatically accept it, it's fair enough to ask some questions and see what it says about the person.
8 months is not long. It's not like she has, say, ten years of marriage and kids experience with him to have a deeper understanding of what he's like as a person.
I have a friend I worked with. He grew up in a poor little disadvantaged town. His family were poor and abusive, think alcohol and physical and sexual abuse was normal. I'm sure he was no saint but his parents put him in care for a while as a child. He left school and took the decision to move away from all that he knew and where hardly anyone ever left. He did nothing amazing, did run of the mill, manual jobs, is married to his long term partner, held down a mortgage and has now moved into working with kids with aspergers etc. he goes home and all his old friends who he left behind are either dead, in prison or addicts of some kind. As, I said nothing amazing and I imagine he can still be a bit of a rogue but I have a lot of admiration and respect for him and actually what is quite a big achievement. I really prefer not to know some of the things he did in his youth and take him as he is now. Sorry, for banging on.
GhostShip I don't know that it would be different, tbh. See how people who admit being the OW are often treated. If they repent - and especially if they have had a bad time, they may be forgiven.
Obloquy abounds on mumsnet, and while some like the soi-disant moral authority their perceived bully pulpit gives them it's important to remember that opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one. And they are each as important as each other to someone.
There are what look like majority views, but they are just that, views.
Tomorrow? There'll be another thread. If OP or other posters don't like what they hear - they don't have to.
Thin skins are no advantage here. I suspect it was AF who told me that. <waves>
Never forgive anyone's mistakes ever. That is the way forward for humans to move on and personally grow and be better people.
It amazes me that people say this isn't about punishment and then say he should do yearly 'chores' to prove his remorse and that he has changed.
Would also love to see this if the sexes were reversed.
Could I ask AnyFuckingDude if she thinks my dh is a rapist?
Because he went to Thailand, had a massage and the woman initiated something more that he went along with. He didn't go in with the intention of paying anyone for sex, he went for a Thai massage and was unprepared for what happened but made no attempt to stop her.
He felt dirty and ashamed afterwards and felt like just another grubby westerner. He told me when we got together because he felt ashamed. He told me all about his sexual past and I told him about mine. Because we were serious about each other and wanted openness and honesty in our relationship. I don't see that as weird. I thought that's what everyone did?
That incident was around 18 years ago. He's now a father of two and my husband. He is the kind of man who would interfere to stop a fight, who would and has stopped men from harrassing girls, who actually fell for a prostitutes story about needing money for nappies (whilst trying to put her arms around him) and so he went into the nearest shop and bought her a load of nappies, who stopped for a pregnant hitchhiker on the hard shoulder of the motorway who had run from her abusive boyfriend and took her to the nearest refuge, who helped me pick up a drug addict from my doorstep and drive her home. I would like to know AFD if you still think that my dh is a rapist for what he did 18 years ago and whether or not I should have dumped him based on that relevation or whether I was right to put it in the past and see the changed man in front of me?
Not everyone can be condemned by an incident in the past. This bf may or may not be an arse, but to condemn everyone as you seem to be doing is wrong. IMO
Why would you dump him? He had sex with a woman before he met you. That isn't unique or surprising. If it's for ethical reasons I am quite sure you wouldn't be able to comb through most people's history without coming up with more than a few ethically dubious choices.
Motes and beams and glass houses.
Hully, have you been listening to That Bastard Gandhi again?
brady, I don't think giving to charity is a chore
I should probably say though that where I come from this is a very common thing, to give to charity in recognition of stupid things we have done. I appreciate it may sound weird to others.
Oh and I read a lovely story about a bloke who was an active member of the National Front but became increasingly concerned about the tactics they were using. He left and fell for a black woman. He has since turned his life around, married her and had kids. It just goes to show that people can change. It was a great story and if I find it I'll link to it.
No one is disputing that people change. It's how comfortable the OP feels with his disclosure isn't it?
I would find it hard to get past easily after just eight months with him. Others would'nt.
If he had told her after a happy twenty year marriage then that would also make it a different situation.
dreaming giving to charity to prove to your girlfriend you are sorry for something that happened 24 years ago and having to do it is a chore.
deciding you have fucked up and trying to balance things by choosing to give to charity isn't a chore.
But it was the first that was suggested with I going acts of contrition. That is a chore. The op either accepts this or doesn't Maui gndown a liftime of things he must achieve to remain with her is punishment.
ACTS OF CONTRITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MumsCatholicHailMaryNet dear lord I've seen it all now.
Ah but bringback that is not what AFD is saying. She has gone beyond the OP now to declare that any man who has sex with a prostitute is a rapist. There is no grey area. So if you find out that your man has ever paid for sex under any circumstances, no matter how long ago, he is a rapist and you should dump him.
That is certainly how I've read those posts. I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong.
And no apology would suffice of course. They all need their bollocks cutting off.
TheRhubarb - Yes to some here your husband is a rapist and this can never be forgotten or forgiven. I find it quite frightening just how black and white some posters are on Mn. Then there's real life rather than Mn life.
When I was single I was extremely squeamish about boyfriends previous sexual history, I insisted on using condoms way before HIV was considered a risk to hetrosexuals.
But I have to say to condemn a man for honesty about doing this 24 years ago is ridiculous, he has admitted he is ashamed. He is not saying "when I am single I use prostitutes because I see nothing wrong with it" in that case he would be a dump now
Years ago (more than 24) I cut the brakes on a boyfriends bike when we split up, I wouldnt dream of doing that now. Years ago a guy we met on the way home from a club invited my friend and I in for a coffee and we went (and as it happens had a cup of coffee) I certainly wouldnt take a risk like that now. I threw a drink over a boyfriend in a club, no way would I do that now.
I am a completely different person to who I was 24 years ago. All the things we have done in the past make us who we are today, some of our experiences are "shit I will never do that again experiences, hopefully this was a lesson for him, he didnt like it and wouldnt repeat it.
If I felt he were a nice boyfriend I would respect this honesty, of course if you then get other niggling reservations about him then reconsider I assume after such a short time you are not thinking marriage/babies serious life stuff. Just enjoy and see what happens...you can dump his ass in the future if he ends up not being that great.
brady, did I say she should make him give to charity? I agree, that would be more of a chore and kind of weird. I meant that if that were something he were doing, it would show that yes he really did feel bad about it and understood how terrible the industry is.
And of course you should LTB as some have said on here that they would do in the same circumstances, even after a long and happy marriage with children.
THERhubarbs post about her H is a perfect example, what we were in the past isnt who we are today but it is what helped us get here.
Hey, I understand a lot of people think talk of contrition and repentence is crazy.
All I can say is I lived most of my life in really fucked up communities, where narratives of repentence -- of making amends -- are very powerful and often very positive.
To me it's a good middle ground between "hey it doesn't matter if you fuck up" and "you're doomed forever if you fuck up". It's saying we all fuck up but at least own it and try to make up for it somehow.
Rhubarb's husband is a good example, he admits he fucked up and it sounds like he's a really caring and generous person who tries to help people.
Perhaps the OP's boyfriend is the same way, it just sounds like maybe she needs more information to decide.
Absolutely Aardvark. He helped him to see more clearly how naive and stupid he was, how women are exploited in other countries like Thailand, how horrible it must be to have to have sex with strange men for money and if he felt that way - imagine how she felt every single day. Yes it gave him food for thought and shaped him into the person he is now, very defensive of women's rights and very aware of how seedy the sex trade is.
In fact he suffered a mental breakdown just before he went travelling and had been diagnosed with schizophrenia, not a great thing to have but that too, helped shape him into the man he is today, who is completely understanding and supportive of my own problems with depression.
sorry -- if that were something he was already doing
Have now rtft.
Can't see ANYWHERE that AF has called anyone a rapist.
dreaming you told me that giving to charity was not a chore. I was telling you that it was imo, in the way the previous poster said. Which is the force giving.
I didn't say you said anything of the sort.
My biggest apologies. It was NOT AFD but AThing who brought rape into it.
Sorry AFD, I do apologise, you were both posting at the same time and with both names looking similar I got them mixed up.
AThing mentioned rape.
Why does giving money equal repentance? To link paying money to relieve guilt for paying for sex is a little odd to my mind.
To me use of prostitutes is a major no no. I would have major issues and would have to consider dumping DP if I found out he had been within a ten metre radius of a prostitute.
I could accept strip clubs on lads holidays etc but not prostitution. To me the kind of person who uses prostitutes is not the kind I want to associate with. I also question whether leopards can really change their spots. Ok so you can grow up and he might not do the same thing now, but he still had it in him at some point in his life.
Just my personal opinion, good luck whatever you decide
Should also add that I am a bit of a prude and view sex as a very sacred activity between people in love, appreciate some people have much more liberal views than me
Really Moviestar? This was just one prostitute but, really? You would be ok with strip clubs?
Funny how different people have wildly opposing views isn't it? To go with a prostitute once, 24 years ago and then immediately regret it and admit it to a new girlfriend would not be a deal breaker for me so long as I could see that he had changed and was really ashamed.
But a strip club is just leering over women's bodies as if they were pieces of meat strung up at the butcher's window. I would not be ok with that. At all.
And to be fair to my dh, he wouldn't to to one. I know because he was invited on a stag do and turned it down because he thought it disrespectful and seedy and told them so too.
I meant that if that were something he were doing, it would show that yes he really did feel bad about it and understood how terrible the industry is.
I'd be brassick, or rather moreso, if I gave to a charity that concerned every bad thing i did.
I think there is a very good chance that a man who slept with a Thai prostitute in Thailand raped her, yes.
Presumably that's why he feels so bad about it?
It's not for anyone to forgive other than the woman (or was she a girl?) he probably raped.
I don't know him, if you think he's a good bloke that's your call obviously.
But a boyfriend of 8 months who is clearly ashamed of how it makes him look but not remotely bothered by the morality of what he did?
Why stick around?
It's depressing, but not really surprising, how keen so many are that men must be forgiven for past sexual abuse.
Even if they're not sorry.
Well I only said I would consider dumping him - would depend on other factors how long had been with him, how much liked him etc but I would definitely consider it.
Would not be happy about the strip club but could get over it if it was part of a lads stag do or something and he hadn't paid for dances etc. Don't like strip clubs one bit but prostitution is another level for me - could not get over the physical aspects, the penetration and exchanging of bodily fluids ..
AThingInYourLife Fri 30-Nov-12 11:59:04
I think there is a very good chance that a man who slept with a Thai prostitute in Thailand raped her, yes.
How about the man who in this case was apparently subjected to a sexual assault, but didn't stop it?
Get yourself tested for STDs pronto. HIV might be lurking in your boyfriend.
Well obviously you don't give to charity for every bad thing. But engaging in prostitution is pretty bad. Some people might feel bad enough about it to try to make amends for it long-term, like Rhubarb's husband. Some people might think it's no big deal and not do anything. All I'm saying is the OP might think about which response she would prefer and then see if she's comfortable with her boyfriend's response.
My original point was that it's not about who's right or wrong so much as whether they are ethically compatible -- and I don't just mean the ethics around prostitution, but in addition the ethics about how we should handle mistakes.
At the beginning of the thread I thought the OP should accept this as in the past and let it go, because it sounded like he was really remorseful. But then it sounded like maybe he wasn't so remorseful after all, which I why I think it's worth getting more information and thinking about all this.
Charming AThing. How lovely that you feel you have the authority to judge a man and a situation that you know nothing about.
No she was not a girl, he is not a paedo but thanks for the insinuation. She was quite old apparently, older than him.
Good to know there are people like you about, who feel sufficiently empowered to cast judgement on strangers, who would punish someone for their wrongs years later and does not believe that anyone can change.
Makes me feel hope for humanity. It really does.
There are a great many men and women who have changed our society for the better based on something they did wrong in the past. Look at Joseph Nobel who founded the Nobel Peace prize. Nelson Mandela was part of armed activities in South Africa and helped plant a bomb that killed 19 people before he took his stance on non-violent protests. Take Moses himself who killed an Egyptian guard (if you believe in that) before he elected leader of the Israelites. But according to you these men should never had been forgiven and if not, then heaven knows what kind of history we would have instead.
Oh and thank you OneMoreChap but presumably my dh is lying when he told me his account. AThing wouldn't say that but it's what most people would be thinking.
For what it's worth, yes she did inititate. He was naive and stupid and recovering from a mental illness. He went into a place recommended for Thai massages. He did not know it was also a brothel. She started to massage him and then took it further. He did not stop her. She produced condoms and encouraged him to have sex with her. Afterwards it became clear to him that she didn't do it because she wanted to, she did it because she was a prostitute and that's what she did for a living.
But he's still a rapist of course. I should divorce him now really shouldn't I and report him to the police.
It would be pretty astounding to have HIV for 24 years with no symptoms. But anyone having unprotected sex with a new partner might want to get tested just in case anyway.
"How about the man who in this case was apparently subjected to a sexual assault, but didn't stop it?"
Yes, that's the grimmest thing about that story.
Young man is taken unawares by nasty Thai sex industry, young girl has to "make the sale".
Having made the foolish mistake of booking a "massage" in the wrong place, he may well have done her a kindness by making sure the transaction was completed.
Personally,i wouldn't dump him, but as someone said, unless you think it's indicative of how he views women generally?
He told you too, and he didn't have to
Hang on though. I've now found the poster's thread in relationships.
Her bloke wasn't ashamed at all. He was defending what he'd done as a fair transaction.
That's not the impression the poster is giving on this thread.
That's right AThingInYourLife don't let the facts as relayed to you by another poster get in the way of your narrative. Not the OPs, I note.
Athing- you're coming across as ridiculous now, that's not what was said and trying to read something like that is just callous, nasty and insulting.
"Athing- you're coming across as ridiculous now, that's not what was said and trying to read something like that is just callous, nasty and insulting."
Who am I insulting and how?
There is no need to keep turning this round. The facts are that Rhubarbs husband did not nor intend to rape anyone.
You are coming across very badly, in the way that you are trying to make it the husbands 'fault'. as you were not there you can not say.
I hope you have a ethically correct background. Completely. Because, honestly, one day you will fall off the moral pedestal you seem to be looking down on everyone from.
He certainly doesn't sound remorseful at all on that thread.
I think OP you are not necessarily framing the question right.
It's not really so much, can I accept this mistake that my boyfriend made 24 years ago?
It's more, can I accept that my boyfriend has a completely different and benign view of the sex industry, to the point where he doesn't even feel that bad about having slept with a prostitute once?
I think if he is open to hearing your views and being informed and changing his mind, then great. I guess you won't know until you talk again.
My dad was in the police for other 30 years.
Since retiring he made friends with a man through some charity work he does. Said man was a bit of gangster when he was young. He murdered 2 'rivials'.
He regrets it, served time. But is not embarrassed by it. He has a good job, is well educated, nice wife (no kids). One of the nicest people you would meet. He is an excellent example of how someone can do the most horrendous things and fundamentally change as a person.
He is not the gangster he was 45 years ago. He is a changed man. I can not imagine anyone saying 'yes I understand you did something terrible years ago, but to remain in contact with me you must do xyz'.
What am I turning around?
I just said that I accept he was sexually assaulted by a Thai woman who was presumably under significant pressure to sleep with him.
Not only did he not intend to rape anyone, he unwittingly got himself into a position where he basically had no choice (that I can see) but to be part of a young woman getting raped (essentially by her pimp).
I can only begin to imagine how traumatic that must have been for him.
But he's in a very different moral position from the man in the OP.
Glad that the other thread has been posted. Different story on there.
What gets me is how many women believe that men are stupid, naive and easily led. Whenever these 'confessions' come out, women seem prepared to suspend the judgement they'd apply to a woman if she'd 'accidentally' ended up in a brothel and had sex and paid for it, or if she'd 'given into peer pressure' and gone with a male prostitute on a hen night.
Brady, I know people like that myself. No, I don't put any conditions on 'remaining in contact' with them. But it would be different if i was thinking about getting married to them -- that's much more serious.
I think it's a bit weird not to be embarrassed about having murdered people and I would probably be put off by that in a partner. I would not put conditions on our relationship though, I would just reckon we weren't compatible and break up.
Obviously this man's wife is not put off by that and that's fine, I honestly don't judge her for it. Just saying it's not for me.
Same with the OP, if she is really not bothered about all this, then it's not for me to say she should feel differently! But she does sound uneasy about it.
badinage -- or the judgment a woman would get if she were a prostitute
Society is certainly more forgiving of men who have used prostitutes than of the women they have used
My now husband did the same thing while on a lads holiday when he was 18, he told me when we were having our early relationship "talks" he's not proud of it and a condom was used, but there was no way I would have dumped him for that, it didn't cross my mind to break up with him. It happened 6 years before we met and we have now been together for 10 years. He is the loveliest husband and father I could wish for, he just made a stupid teenage mistake! And he is no way a woman hater, he's the kindest man you'll meet, the arsehole I was with before hadn't slept with a prostitute but used to slap me around and mentally abuse me THATS a woman hater.
AThing, I don't really give a crap what you think. I'm sorry your experiences has tainted your view of the world. That does not give you the right to call my dh a rapist, but if that is what you need to do, if that is what makes you feel better.....
And she was not a young girl, she was a woman older than my dh at the time. Probably my age now. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good story eh? I'm sure my dh will love to know that he is a rapist. Should I dump him do you think?
Actually forget it. You've made your pov very clear. I have no interest in engaging with you further on the subject. You come across as a very bitter, very narrow minded and unforgiving person and only you know why that is.
I hope life starts to pick up for you, I really do because the world is not the way you see it thank God.
This thread is becoming rather hysterical now with people advising HIV tests and calling strangers rapists so I shall bow out now.
And yes emmie31, hear hear. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Food for thought there.
The only reason it doesn't cross some women's minds to dump a man who's used a prostitute is because it's never occurred to them that this is a particularly bad thing for men to do. It's treated on a par with having sex with a consenting partner and not the abuse that it is.
I don't see it as sex with a consenting partner, but I don't see it as abuse, that's done by those who push girls into the sex trade against their will.
Dreaming Yes marriage is different. However this man is at all family events, he has been made a part of our family. As much as if he married into the family.
You misunderstand about the embarrassment. He is ashamed that he did it. But not embarrassed to tell people. Because something that happened has not dictated who he is and his, now, values. If someone wants to judge him on 45 years ago, he would prefer to know straight away.
He is actually an inspiration. And he shouldn't hide away.
Oh and putting conditions on anyone is wrong.
I don't see it as abuse, that's done by those who push girls into the sex trade against their will.
And they wouldn't be able to do that if men stopped being punters and didn't fuel the demand.
badinage actually you are wrong.
I feel using prostitutes and going to strip clubs is very very wrong.
However i also accept people do shit stuff and that doesn't always define who they are 24 years later.
Ah, that's different isn't it. I know what you mean.
Again, I did say I wouldn't put any conditions on anyone. If I felt we were incompatible I would just leave.
If you don't give a crap what I think, why did you specifically ask me what I thought?
And I didn't call your husband a rapist. I said he probably raped that woman, although it seems he was not a willing participant in her rape.
But this bloke doesn't think it WAS 'shit stuff'!
He thought it was a fair transaction until he realised he'd fucked up by admitting that and then quickly brought out the 'dumb and stupid' card.
AThing, now you are saying he is probably a rapist. I suppose that's marginally better!
I am sorry but I actuallu laughed out loud at 'i said he was probably a rapist'
There you go rhubarb, all better. Athing is only saying he is probably a rapist.
Really lovely people that think a woman's probable rape is a reason for mirth.
I guess she was foreign and it was long ago, so that makes it a laughing matter now.
AThing it's obvious from this thread that people don't think it is a laughing matter.
It is also obvious that your black and white view about what constitutes being
or probably being a rapist is very very extreme and in the minority.
AThingInYourLife how is it a probable rape? You're making a massive assumption there. A lot of women chose to sell their bodies.
Must be tough having the weight of the world's ills on your shoulders whilst all us shallow folk just skip merrily through the bluebells. I know, I know we just don't understand.
And to be absolutely crystal fucking clear - if a man participated unwillingly in the rape of a woman, he is not a rapist.
I thought that would have been obvious.
So no, I didn't call TheRhubarb's husband a rapist.
It sounds like he felt coerced. He was certainly in a very difficult position.
If you knew even the first fucking thing about the sex trade in Thailand you would know that it is very unlikely the woman was not making a free choice to sell her body.
Double negative - unlikely she was selling her body as a free choice
You can't 'possibly rape someone unwillingly'!
I don't know about Thailands sex industry ( I assume you do AThing)- please do share your experience. I do know about the UK sex Industry
define 'choice' - women make a 'choice' between selling her body for sex or starvation - is it STILL a choice? Really?
99.9% of women (and men) selling sex do so because they have to not because they want to
i wouldnt dump someone for that 24 years ago, unless it really icked me out, which it doesnt. Youre well within your rights to dump anyone at any time for anything i guess. For some people this would be a major issue, but i personally think that would be pretty harsh and stupid if everything else was great.
It probably isnt though, or you wouldnt even be considering it.
AThing - right just calm down for one, I'm not going to get into this debate with you if you're going to swear at me.
Gordy - They do it as a job, I'm not saying its right but they chose to do it. Just as we chose to work - not many would work unless they had to. It's still a choice, albeit not much of one.
I know about 6 prostitutes, I would consider them my friends, 1 of which originates from Thailand. They would most definetley tell you it's their choice to do what they do. And they'd be disgusted, especially the Thai girl, if she thought people were thinking she had been raped. That takes away their choice, that takes away their power - which I will add they feel they have. They feel they have power over these men.
I'm not going to be naive and claim every example is the same, but comments like 'hes a rapist' are stupid and misinformed.
athing do you even read peoples posts and take them at what they have said, or only read them to twist them?
I did not laugh at the woman in thailand. let me make it clear I was laughing at you and you 'actually i didn't say you husband was a rapist, I said he was probably a rapist'.
Because its the most laughable thing I have heard on here for a while. As though saying he is probably a rapist is any better. We have what rhubarbs dh has said and from that he is not a rapist as you have later agreed.
But you can't have that as it doesn't fit your black and white view.
Which is athing is rhubarbs husband a probable rapist or not.
because you seem to be all over the place.
Ive known several prostitutes too. Most were the happy hooker type. Did it because they were/ are already pretty promiscuous and just thought why the hell not, or were offered money for it and just thought why the hell not. Its not as uncommon as people think. I reckon most people know someone who does it but just doesnt talk about it.
Saying that, its obviously not the same everywhere. My dp went to malaysia on a business trip with his old company, and they were provided with prostitutes, which i found obviously hideous hideous hideous. The two people he went with were totally up for it, but my dp did not want to at all. They got him one anyway!! He spent the time in her room talking to her and she was beside herself upset at first that dp didnt want to have sex with her as she would have got in real trouble :'(
He was really upset by it and so was I. What a horrible culture and those poor women. I was disgusted by his then "friend" who spoke to his one and she told him what a shit life she had had, and how she had basically had no other choice. He had sex with her anyway.
Some men are such cunts.
How come it's mainly women who make this 'choice'?
Bet you wouldn't think a Thai boy was making a 'free choice' to be fucked and paid for it by Western paedophiles.
I don't know anything about the male side of prostitution and the thread wasn't about that.
Of course you can rape someone unwillingly.
Someone puts a gun to a man's head and tells him to fuck the woman in front of him.
If he does it, she was raped. By him. But is he a rapist? I would argue not.
If a young man in Thailand went for a massage and found himself in a brothel (pretty easy mistake to make. It would be harder to find a non-brothel massage parlour in parts of tourist Thailand) he could well find himself under a lot of pressure from the masseuse to have sex with her.
Why? Because she would be under strict instructions from her pimp to show the Western boy a good time. Often on pain of severe beating or something happening to her family.
That's why I said that going through with it might have been a kindness. It really might have been the best thing he could do at that point.
As fucking grim as that is.
I feel very sorry for a young man in that situation.
when youre talking about other cultures though it gets really difficult. One of the points being is these women do not have a real choice. It is either have sex for money, or starve. Theres not social security to fall back on.
If that was my choice I would have sex for money too. If youre concentrating on the sex bit, then its the wrong priority. Its the fact that the majority of the world have nothing, no way of feeding their families. Thats whats fucked up. Thats the tragedy. Not what they resort to
What do you do about it then AThing? Does the law in Thailand class prostitution as rape? and your scenario of a gun-to-head-forced-sex is highly unlikely to happen, I wouldn't say it never happens but that's nothing like the scenario given up thread.
The law in Thailand doesn't even class child prostitution as rape.
But the men who go there to rape little girls are still scum.
badinage the only male prostitute I knew was actually making money for trans surgery. I don't know if he was making a free choice, but he did it because he could make money more quickly that way.
Of course, nearly all male prostitutes still have male clients, vanishingly few female clients. [I believe I have a statutory obligation to point out that some female prostitutes also have female clients]
I asked how come it's mainly women who make this 'free choice'?
Because that's at the heart of this thread.
Most prostitutes are women and most punters are men. Reason for that is there's hardly any demand from women to pay men for sex. Not because women don't want sex and not because they dislike it.
But because they don't live in a world where some men are regarded as the 'sex class' and if women can't get sex for free, they feel entitled to buy it from the sex class rather than go without.
The reason so many people on this thread think that men using prostitutes isn't a big deal is because deep down, lots of people still think men need sex in a way that women do not - and so they can't be blamed for paying for it.
to be a bit tedious, I remember one young woman of my acquaintance saying many years ago she had no problem getting sex, just decent sex.
I said I'd settle for any sex... she smiled.
There is another possible reason why many women don't pay for sex...
One more chap and there's the difference.
I hate the insinuation that men need sex. What crap. I have a high sex drive and I might say to my partner 'i neeeed sex' but I don't. I can easily live without it, just as a man would.
But lets be hypothetical and put whatever seediness aside, if the woman was there of her own free will and choosing, would that be okay?
If men didn't "need" sex, none of us would be here.
Its not need, it's want.
Two completely different things.
My ex's excuse for cheating on me was 'im sorry I just needed it'.
hully if you are still reading cheers mate
I am sure you have done this before...pulled someone up for misrepresenting me in my absence
99.9% of women (and men) selling sex do so because they have to not because they want to
Can you cite that?
I thought prostitution was legal in Amsterdam and that prostitutes had workers rights and trade unions.
I do not know if such legelisation applied 20 years ago.
"if the woman was there of her own free will and choosing, would that be okay?"
Not by me, no.
I think buying another person's body for sex is immoral regardless of whether they sell it willingly.
But even for people who think it's OK if the prostitute is happy to sell their consent there must be two conditions to make it moral
1 the prostitute must be willingly selling her consent and not coerced in any way (other than payment)
2 the punter must be able to determine with absolute certainty that no.1 is the case
In a real world situation, no.2 is as good as impossible.
So there is always the question of whether it was rape.
And if you're not sure, and you do it anyway...
Agree with that. How can you be sure they are not forced or even trafficked. If there is even a chance then you should not be having sex with prostitutes as you are then responsible for all those who are forced or trafficked to say nothing of those who are just desperate. I've recently changed my mind on drugs for the same reason. I've never really done drugs but didn't see that recreational use of milder drugs or cannabis was that big a deal. But looking at the business and misery behind the supply of drugs has made me realise it is harmful. Whole communities are under threat and being controlled by the gangs and cartels behind the drug industry. An old friend who lives in Mexico was recently held up in her car with her family by drug gangs with AK47s. They put their foot down and refused to stop and luckily escaped. A few weeks later a young woman, a mayor who stood up to these same gangs was abducted in front of her young child and tortured and killed. Her husband had been killed in the same way a few years earlier. Anyone who takes drugs is helping to cause these communities to be terrorised and controlled. Guess I feel the same way about prostitution. There are victims and if you use drugs or go with prostitutes you are a part of the problem
Sorry for banging on.
oh my lord, seriously, 24 years ago. Get over it and fast. I doubt there is a single persona alive that hasn't regretted something they have done in the past 24 years. He was young, naive, stupid, pissed, whatever. There are people doing this as a regular hobby these days.
He told you about it, which means he has more morals than most because a lot just wouldn't have been honest and wouldn't have told you.
Who cares what somebody did 24 years ago. As long as it was safe sex and he's been tested and you're not at risk then I honestly don't see a problem.
"Get over it, and fast"
Bossy bugger, ain't ya
AFD, hehe sorry to be blunt but also darling, i'm sure that's a similar style of yourself.
Yeah who cares as long as he protected his own health and his girlfriend's health isn't threatened eh? Let's not worry about the poor cow he bought. Get over it woman, if you want a relationship!!
As for Amsterdam, has that poster read what happened after they legalised it?
I wouldn't dump someone for visiting a prostitute in the past before they met me. I might not fully approve but he was a different person back then an at least he was honest. I mean gosh if that's the worst thing that happened on a lad's holiday then you should be relieved!
It was 25 years ago; that's a LONG TIME AGO. People change. Morals change. Many men sleep with prostitutes. It's not great but then mabe he was desperate for a shag. Was it better if he picked up a random in a nightclub?
It would be a deal breaker for me I think. It depends really on why he's embarrassed or sorry - is it because of the effects on him (that it lowers people's opinions of him, that it could lead to the end of your relationship) or is he sorry because of the nature of the sex industry and the effect on women and specifically the impact of his actions on the woman that he paid to use? If the former (which tbh from your other thread is the most likely), it would be the end no question. If the latter it might lead me to give further consideration, but in all honesty for an 8 month relationship with no ties I don't think I'd be interested in compromising something which I find really important.
Either way, YANBU. You can end a relationship for whatever reason you choose and you don't have to justify it to anyone. You don't have to stay together just because the reason isn't "good enough".
the poor cow he bought?? he didn't buy anyone. he paid to have sex with her. he didn't buy her. I think it might be good to look at where the patriarchal view that a woman who has had sex has been bought or has a claim on her. do you think women give away sex too?
I have known several prostitutes and strippers too. On the surface they can appear to be the "happy hooker type" But actually, scratch the surface and there is no such thing.
Put it this way; would any man be ok with his daughter growing up and "choosing" to sell her body?
Probably not. Or maybe, if that man has himself been raping his daughter since she was 7. Prostitutes do not have happy backgrounds. They just dont.
Sure, some men will decide that any sex is better than no sex. But not all. No-one "needs" sex.
Human slavery and trafficking is a huge problem, not just in places like Thailand, but all over Europe too. No man can know for sure that the transaction is undertaken willingly by the woman (or more likely the young girl) and so it is totally immoral to use prostitutes. If the demand is not there, the supply of abused and damaged females will cease.
25 years, 24 years, 20 years
gosh, it's all getting a bit muddled
linda..read my posts
am I telling the Op what to do, in no uncertain terms ?
no, I am saying that she would not be U to dump on these grounds (but it's up to her)
you (and many others on this thread), on the other hand, are barking orders at her
do you think women give away sex too?
Of course not, as should be bloody obvious from my posts.
Focus on the men paying the money, not the women who take it. Focus on why men feel that anything can be bought at a price.
Why lump all men together not every man uses prostitutes, same as not every women sells sex.
superstar How is having sex with a consenting stranger the same as having sex with a stranger you're potentially raping?
anything can be bought for a price though.
That doesn't mean it's right to do so strumpet.
anything can be bought for a price though.
If there's little or no demand for it, no it can't - at least not without some difficulty. If society pronounces it's wrong to want to buy something, it's even more difficult.
"Shagging a prostitute is the action of a man who wants sex with someone who will be completely under their control because they're getting paid for it and someone who wants sex but doesn't want any emotion to come into it."
When I was 20 I had a short relationship with a man who lost his virginity to a prostitute. He was pretty fucked up - he'd gone to an all-boys public school and straight to Oxbridge on a male-dominated course, so he'd spent his young life in a fairly segregated and academic environment. He had no idea how to deal with women - not in a misogynistic way, but just being completely hopeless and overanalysing any dates he went on. When he moved to the university we were both at, he was suffering from crippling depression and was convinced it was rooted in a lack of sexual experience, so he got a 'contacts magazine' (not entirely sure what this involves tbh) and ended up seeing two women in a massage parlour. The first time he couldn't do it, the second time he did. I was the first woman he slept with that he hadn't paid for. He told me this on our second or third night together, and it's something he's going to have to tell every woman he gets seriously involved with.
By all accounts he still believes that A Relationship will solve all his problems, regardless of the actual girl/woman involved (this was why I ended it, not because of the prostitution) so it didn't cure anything, but it wasn't really a case of him wanting to pay someone so he didn't have to give a shit about them.
fridge I'm not sure you have proved your point there
this inadequate bloke you are waxing lyrical about paid a woman to overlook the fact he was an inept fuckwit with no experience of women, but sleep with him any way to "pop his cherry"
he might as well have used an apple pie, or a hole in a public toilet wall
But just look at that story.
There must be as many women as men in that same situation. Do they go looking to pay for sex to lose their virginity and to learn how to deal with men?
Do they fuck - because women aren't raised to think they are entitled to buy the use of another's body.
he paid her to "forget" that she didn't fancy him
he didn't give a shit that she didn't fancy him
ergo...he didn't give a shit
badinage "women aren't raised to think they are entitled to buy the use of another's body"
I think that's really offensive to any MNetters who have sons. Or indeed any mother who has had a son. Do you honestly think they raise to think they can use and abuse women?
Alis, I don't think badinage meant specifically mothers are raising sons to be users of women's bodies...I reckon she means more of a society/peer pressure/media-driven thang
but something is creating these entitled men, isn't it ?
It is,in some men's cases yes.
The use of the word raises may well just be simplistic in that quote.
As my own anecdote,the only man I actually know to have used prostitutes (habitually) is possibly the most unpleasant man I have ever met. I thought that before I knew about his use of prostitutes. He hates women,particularly and especially young women. Doesn't like his wife to wear makeup and actively stops her wearing it etc.
*he's the only man I personally know to have used prostitutes. The habitually in brackets doesn't make what I'm saying very clear but I mean,he also used them habitually. Not that I know lots of men who have and he's the only one I know who has done habitually.
I don't know any men that use prostitutes at this present time, or have done
I expect some people will tell me I am thick and deluded or summat, since it's so like common 'n' that
I have been aware that one or two men of my acquaintance have done. They were very quickly removed from my acquaintance which was a relief on both sides, I am sure.
"Do you honestly think they raise to think they can use and abuse women?"
Not deliberately, but yes many women do raise their sons that way.
Look at this thread, mostly populated by women, the vast majority insisting that "flexibility" over getting a woman's consent to sex is an understandable youthful indiscretion that must be forgiven.
Look at all the threads with women insisting that paying women for sexual performances (aka "lap" dancing) and masturbating to images and videos of women being sexually assaulted (aka porn) are expected male behaviours.
The women who believe these things are raising children to believe them too. Although the children obviously have other influences and minds of their own.
That Coleen Nolan person bought her son a jump with a prostitute for his 16th birthday, didn't she ?
AF - I didn't think I knew any either until it came out this man had. As far as I know and sincerely hope,none of the other men in my social circle have done.
Alis, I trust you have cut him out forthwith
I think she did or at least offered to AF. I remember her trying to justify that on the television and in the newspapers. Wonder if she feels the same way now she has a young daughter?
That's an unbelievably fucked up thing to do. Teenage boys shouldn't be forced in to being fuck machines by anybody let alone their own mothers. I think the long term implications of sex at a young age can be very damaging for teenage boys,as they can be for some teenage girls.
I think there are some parents (fathers as well as mothers - you only mentioned mothers in your post) who raise boys to have different standards about sex than those given to daughters, including the right to pay for sex. But obviously I don't think the parents of every son do this. It's not just parents who raise children though and give them their values - society and the beliefs within it shape them.
AF I did. For that and various other reasons. Though it on it's own would have been enough had it all not come to light at the same time. He's a disgusting man on many levels.
"this inadequate bloke you are waxing lyrical about paid a woman to overlook the fact he was an inept fuckwit with no experience of women, but sleep with him any way to "pop his cherry"
It wasn't as simple as that.
This guy was depressed about it to the point of considering suicide. He thought his (clinical) depression was rooted in sex, or lack of it - I wasn't there at the time, I only met him later, so I can only go off his account. I have bipolar disorder and when I don't take my medication, my sex drive goes absolutely mental - mental health problems can really affect your sexual life, snd your ability to make rational decisions, and the medication for them can cause erectile dysfunction and anorgasmia. If he'd gone to a prostitute because he thought it would be funny or his mates told him it would make him a ledge or whatever, my reaction would have been different.
I made some very poor choices with men in my younger years but he was, at least with me, entirely respectful. It fizzled out for unrelated reasons (he had a battalion of fucking irritating mannerisms and we had little in common really) - I'm not 'waxing lyrical' about him, just saying that it's more nuanced than we'd like, I think. How does it work if it's men seeing male prostitutes - it's not misogynistic even if it might be exploitative.
DP knows two women who are sex workers - one he met at uni, the other from a group of people he knows via an online forum. Both of them are dominatrixes (dominatricies?) though which is slightly different because the nature of the kink puts you in greater control and I know some don't actually fuck their clients. The former was quite intimidating when I met her but pretty normal, the latter so far from the stereotype that I'd never have guessed if I hadn't been told beforehand.
badinage apologies,I just took the most simplistic meaning from what you said. Thank you for explaining further though,what you say makes perfect sense.
fridge I am not questioning your choices, love
but I am questioning his, and your defence of them
It's not the choice I would have made - in his position, I had a FWB thing with someone I knew. It probably fucked him up a bit more in the long run. It certainly didn't solve the problem and even now I think he puts women on a pedestal a bit and is crazy jealous of those in relationships. In that sense he is inept, if not a fuckwit.
But I do know he didn't decide to pay for sex because he particularly disliked women, or just wanted a hole to fuck, or didn't give a shit about how the woman felt. That's an unfair assumption. I didn't think it was a reason to end things - but then I was 20 and kind of working out how I felt about casual sex etc. - but I probably would have done so without that particular backstory. I grew up somewhere where disrespecting women was common; my friend was locked in a toilet by a guy she was 'seeing' and told she couldn't leave until he 'fingered' her, and that wasn't uncommon enough for her to be as outraged as I was when she told me about it. Having spent my teen years around guys who wanted to fuck women in the loos, call them slags and then vomit in a bus shelter and call it a great night out, it was hard to see this guy as the one who disrespected women.
In a way I do feel sorry for him because he's going to have to explain it to his new partners for the rest of his dating life.
Thanks Alis, glad to have cleared that up.
Fridge it's not the sex of the prostitute that matters - it's the sex of the punter.
Fact is, your old friend knew that for what ever reason he thought he had - he could have paid to use someone else's body.
It's not so nuanced. It's actually quite stark. Most punters are men. We need to keep questioning why men are still able to buy sex.
But how do women who've chosen to enter sex work enter into this? They exist, I have met two of them myself, both of whom were I guess if you wanted to be reductionist you could call the happy hooker type, bright educated women who knew what they were involved in. I know not all punters care about whether their 'girl' is trafficked or there down to informed choice, and that not all women can work in a safe environment, but there are those who choose to meet that need too. There's a lobbying organisation by and for sex workers.
The other thing is that society is normalising sex work in a way it wasn't not so long ago. Burlesque might be more cabaret than stripping, but it's gone mainstream and still involves women flashing their tuppences. Gyms offer pole-dancing classes as fitness, or they're sold as something women would find empowering. The latter turns my stomach a bit in a way I can't quite define.
I suppose what I'm saying is that there always has been and probably always will be women who sell sex to men for one reason or another. For some it's the only thing they own. For others, they sign up to something and end up coerced into it. And some decide they're quite happy making a living from tying men to a St Andrew's Cross and being paid for the privilege.
Instead of thinking why some women want to sell sex, I always turn this back to the punters fridge and think about why they feel entitled to buy it with such impunity. I'd rather focus on stopping their opportunities to buy sex and introducing legal punishment if they do, like in some other countries. There have always been dangerous and unhealthy jobs that people have been prepared to do if the money's good enough, but society has stepped in and put a stop to the demand for that work. I've always had a suspicion that the reason our governments haven't is because this work affects women's health and safety and not men's......and women are not seen as important and as worthy of protection.
"I always turn this back to the punters fridge"
I was really interested to see where this argument was going.
It's too early...
i think prostitution is just as an extention of sex without feelings, and we cant possibly give a shit about everyone we meet, and a lot of people dont really care about the people they have sex with.
The whole issue with prostitution is a judgement on people (mostly men) for being able to have sex with a woman that he just doesnt give two hoots about. he just wants someone to fuck. Someone that makes him feel good for a bit.
Women do it too, the only difference is women dont generally have to pay for it.
I dont get the bit that sex is a special case. I know for a fact that there are many prostitutes who do it willingly and take money for it because they might as well, and tbh, i would have no extra qualms about taking money off someone for it as i would with going out and fucking a stranger, which is a pretty common pastime. I also wouldnt have a problem with my daughter doing it when she was older IF she wanted to and had the right mindset with it and was happy
Hmm. On a seemingly , but not really, unrelated topic, I had a long conversation with an ex bf about sleeping with men on the first date. I maintained that it wasn't usually my plan, but if it felt right I would.
He said that if I wanted a man to want to enter into an actual relationship with me, then I shouldn't, because the man will never really respect me after that.
I asked him if men worry about women respecting them after sex, and he said " men and women are just different".
Well.yeah, they are, but it seems very unfair to me that even in this day and age, this double standard persists.
I dont want a fuck buddy type thing with a man i like. I do want a relationship, but if me sometimes letting my sexual urges overtake me means that i am automatically making myself the "wrong" kind if girl, that may never happen!
there is still this view that sex with a woman is some kind of transaction, to be either witheld in exchange for a long term contract, or sold.
My ex told me thatif i just wanted a shag, i should pick up some totty in a bar, thus, i guess, dividing men into the ones you just fuck, and the ones you like. Just like they do to us.
I often think that it is men who desperately need a sexual revolution.
i think everyone needs a bloody sexual revolution
"i think prostitution is just as an extention of sex without feelings"
and without meaningful consent.
Sometimes I think women are best advised to sleep with all men on a first date.
It's the only way to be sure the man you are with isn't the kind of misogynist who would have sex with you and disrespect you for it afterwards.
An early screening process, if you will
i have a problem with the term meaningful consent. I think its patronising. To me, it sounds exactly like not actually respecting peoples consent at all.
If someone consents, they consent. Its not the same as coercion or force. If someone was abused as a child. That doesnt mean they can never consent to anything meaningful again. If someone is addicted to drugs they can still consent. If someone has no other means of making money, and decide thats their last option, and agree to it, its consensual, no matter how distasteful you may find it. I am perfectly within my rights to rent out my fanny for half an hour. Its mine. I would take no responsibility for shaping that persons views on women in general, only what they think of me.
As long as someone has all their faculties and know what theyre doing ands getting into then agrees to it, then its damn well consensual. Its patronising to say any different.
People can and do consent to a ;lot of things that you may find horrible all the time and they always have done. Sex can be a loving wonderful thing. It can be a bit of fun. It can also be a commodity to be bought and sold, as can womens bodies and mens bodies and i see no special reason why it shouldnt be.
as long as its consensual buying selling (as in renting out your time and talents)
I wonder why he told you at all about this happening 24 years ago? And you have been with him 8 months. I would expect a man who really loved you , would never mention it. It is his attitude I worry about. Did he really think it wouldn't bother you?
Message withdrawn at poster's request.
So this man was honest enough to tell you about something that happened 24YEARS AGO!
digerd is saying he shouldn't have told you, others will tell you if he didn't tell you he's not an honest man and "what else has he lied about"
Get a grip!
You're all so inconsistent with your advice!
He shouldn't have told you!
If he hadn't told you and you some how found out at a later date and posted you'd have been told something like:
He should have been honest and told you this what else is he keeping from you? He objectifies women he's a rapist leave him!
Seriously some of you ladies need to get more consistent... I'll no doubt be banned for speaking my mind and accused of being a troll now!
"Get a grip!"
There we go again. Very prescriptive and aggressive hectoring post.
Why would you be banned, Voice ?
Have you been banned before ? Everyone is entitled to their opinion here, if they stay within the guidelines.
I think it really depends on your personal feelings. If they are that strong that you don't feel you can get past it and/or you have doubts as to whether or not it was a genuine error of judgement made in the name of immaturity and he has changed/grown up since then, you probably need to finish now rather than drag it out.
Personally, if I had met someone, it was going well and I was confident of the type of person they were now, I would let it go, but everyone is different.
That all sounds very plausible until you look at the bigger context and realise that the people who are renting out others' bodies are predominantly men, within a historical context of men having more structural power than women and the right to use womens' bodies whether they consent to it or not. It's only 21 years since rape in marriage came on to the statute books. Sex work is a political issue. The whole thing is based on the premise that men are entitled to sex and if they can't gain consent, they are free to buy it.
Have a look at that idea you've got going on there that choices happen in a vacuum. They do not. Everyone's choices are greater or smaller depending on the decisions we make or were made by others/society to get us to that point. A woman who has suffered an abusive childhood where her body was not inviolate, makes choices within that context.
I meant that strumpet's post sounded plausible incidentally, not the 'get a grip FFS he's a man, 'ladies' know your place!!' rants that followed.....
Wen a man goes with a prostitute how does he know she hasn't been trafficked or forced into it though? Don't some young girls get coerced into it by 'boyfriends' who end up becoming their pimps or does this not matter? Do men who go with prostitutes have no responsibility regarding this?
As long as they don't have to be confronted with it, and the women in their life turn a blind eye and don't question damaging rationalisations...then no, they don't have to take responsibility for it.
" I am perfectly within my rights to rent out my fanny for half an hour. Its mine."
But if you are selling your fanny because you are addicted to drugs and need to pay for your next fix, what kind of person accepts that consent?
What kind of person is happy to buy your fanny knowing that you are deeply psychologically traumatised by years of sexual abuse?
What kind of person doesn't care?
What kind of person takes the risk that you are being coerced and thinks it's not their problem to figure out if they are raping you?
One person gives consent, and the other person accepts it.
It's the second person I'm interested in.
I've no quarrel with women who sell sex for money.
Good post ATHING. I was thinking the very same.
This Happy Hooker stuff is a bit of a myth. I would think the number of Billie wotsit call girls around, earning thousands sleeping with perfectly attractive men or operating in High Society are very few and far between.
The reality is Drug Addiction, Pimps and Coertion or in some countries having to support your starving family.
I agree badinage and A Thing. I dont understand why it seems to be considered by some on here to be hysterical and inconsistent to maintain that a punter can never be sure he has proper consent to have sex with a prostitute. Its just a fact.
A man could have done this when young and naive, and later regretted it massively when he realises this, or he could do it and rationalise it by saying things like " its a womans choice to rent out her fanny "
It might be her choice in the moment (it might not) but even then the man is taking advantage of a fucked up situation, and is willing to engage in a totally unequal sexual transaction.
There is a reason why most women dont suddenly decide to have sex for money when they are skint. Its a very unpleasant thing to do. Any man, or woman, who discounts the fact that this woman is totally faking any pleasure and is gritting her teeth until its over is either immoral or deluded.
You should dump him as he is a complete plonker for confessing something he did 24 years ago. OTOH I am impressed he can remember 1987
would that go along the same lines as they shouldnt accept consent for a sexual relationship with someone who had been abused before at all.
If a woman has been abused, do you think shes just pretty much fucked and cant make a rational informed decison to have sex again, or is it just the fact that its money changing hands??
I just dont see a big problem with one person using another if the other person is happy to be used.
I dont think anyone is entitled to sex, but anyone is entitled to try and get it, and if theyre lucky enough to find someone whos willing to do it, for fun or for money, then theyre perfectly entitled to make that transaction between themselves.
The fact its mostly men. Dont care. I see men as people, not abusers. Im not impressed by men who use prostitutes. I think its pretty lame, and shows theyre not interested in whether their partner is enjoying themselves, but at most i think it makes them sexually selfish and a crap shag, but a lot of people are those things anyway without money changing hands.
Yes, it's the fact that there is money changing hands.
And it's not as simple as to say, oh well, she has been abused in the past as so can't enjoy sex again ever. I know plenty of people who have been abused and go on to enjoy sex with their partners.
But when sex is in the form of a financial transaction. and the person selling probably wouldnt be there if she hadnt been abused, then that is perpetuating the abuse.
And I certainly don't view all men as abusers. Just the ones who have sex with women they cant possible know are really consenting.
There is a WORLD of difference between "for fun" and "for money". You can't put those two things in the same sentence, as if they are interchangeable.
But strumpet, how do you know they are consenting or are being coerced or even trafficked?
This Happy Hooker stuff is a bit of a myth
Sigh. It's actually not. It's very true and there are hundreds in the UK, although they wouldn't refer to themselves as 'happy hookers'. Just because you might not know any doesn't mean they don't exist. Like I've said before, I alone know 6 women who like what they do and see it as a great job to have. Flexible hours, good money, answer to no-one.
I'm just saying that you can argue what you like, but it isn't a myth at all and much more popular than someone not in the know might think.
Off topic, but I know one woman who works full time as a nurse, but on the side she works as a prostitute because she's a self proclaimed 'sex addict'. In her words 'I'm going to get it anyway, so may as well make money from it'
If you met her she looks like butter wouldn't melt
Sorry Ghost ship, but I am "in the know" and that is why I am so anti prostitution. I just find it really hard to believe that you know so many women willing to sell sex happily, with no unpleasant back story.
But at the end of the day, even if there are women who do it easily and happily, a punter can't know that, so therefore buying sexual services is not an OK thing to do.
There are happy hookers. I know
Plus I'd imagine a lot of women who start of down this route 'happy' and feel they are in control might come to bitterly regret it some years down the line.
i know at least 4 people who i know sell sex or have sold sex happily and are not fucked up from it.
I could do it.
But you keep missing out those who are not happy doing it. Whose lives are beyond miserable. do you think it's ok for a man to use a trafficked woman, or someone who has been selling her body since childhood?
OP started off about what happened 24 years ago. Now the thread is on about denying women the right to earn a living under our own terms. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves!
But you keep missing out those who are not happy doing it. Whose lives are beyond miserable. do you think it's ok for a man to use a trafficked woman, or someone who has been selling her body since childhood?
I havent seen anyone do that. All I've seen is people trying to say the 'happy hookers' are a myth or can't possibly be truly happy.
Ifnot Find it hard to believe all you like, but I know these women. I even have them on facebook FGS. I really do need to suggest that they join here. Although people would probably all try and tell them how deep down they can't possibly be happy, and all sorts of other offensive and patronising psychobabble I've heard people come out with on here regarding that subject.
If you know about that sort of thing, then you will know that there are the more reputable places. Places where women work for themselves, who have no-one in control over them. Not all men who visit prostitutes are perverted kerb crawlers, picking up any old girl off the street.
I don't miss those women out. its never ok to be trafficked coerced or forced into anything. of course its not.
Butb thats the point strumpet. A punter cant know if a girl is trafficked or coerced, or if she isn't. Its not always obvious, and men seem to be willing to turn a blind eye to the harsh realities.
No matter whether she is on the street, or a "high class" call girl. Once money is involved, the whole dynamic changes from consensual sex to a business transaction.
And Redbindy-I am not denying any woman's right to earn a living under her own terms. I am not having a go at prostitutes at all. Just the morally bankrupt mentality of men who use them.
And not all prostitutes are women. Lots of boys sell sex to seedy men. Is a 16 year old boy who rents himself an empowered man who is earning a living under his own terms? He may think so. We might think differently.
The Happy Hooker myth is a particular narrative about prostiution that is based on misrepresentation and lies.
That doesn't imply that there are no happy hookers, just that the stories that are told about women having orgasmic sex with men they struggle not to fall in love with are bullshit.
Why should any of us be concerned with these women you know if they are so happy?
If they are making a living happily (albeit in an ugly exploitative industry that undeniably does great harm to many women) they are just tip top and need nothing from any of us.
just that the stories that are told about women having orgasmic sex with men they struggle not to fall in love with are bullshit
Youre right, that is bullshit.
I'm not saying any of you should be concerned, but you might take them into consideration when you're talking about prostitution and it's evils.
They certainly wouldn't need telling that they mask their own feelings and arnt happy at all.
"you might take them into consideration when you're talking about prostitution and it's evils."
They apparently are entirely removed from the evils of prostitution, so they are just a footnote to that argument.
Except they're the ones who would suffer if some people had their way, and it were made illegal altogether.
They aren't a footnote at all, you're making them one because it suits youre argument. Them being happy and not abused doesn't fit in.
it means to me that its not the prostitution that's bad, its the trafficking and coercian. prostitution can and does happen consensually and its ok to all involved.
we don't say sex is bad because some people get raped. we don't say chocolate is evil because of the huge problem of child slave labour in its production. we target the actual problematic bits of it, not generalise.
I think this is a really sad situation. If you really find it so abhorrent, or are worried that people will find out & judge him/you, then fine, but not only was it so long ago that he would have been a completely different person, but also there are going to be loads of people that have had moments of indiscresion, such as poorly judged sexual actions, drug use, drink driving etc, everyone has a past.
It's hard to meet the right person, be sure that this is enough of a big deal to not want to be with someone. What would you do if you were blissfully happily married & found out say 5 years in?
This is probably a hopelessly naive question... But surely if he went with a prostitute in Amsterdam where brothels are legal and seem to be a fairly well accepted part of everyday life (and I'm not referring to the seedier parts of the red light district but to the fact that every town has a 'Club' just on the main road just outside) why would he have felt that it was tantamount to rape?
As a young man 'going along with the crowd' whay wouldn't he have thought that it was a business transaction between two consenting adults?
We know so much more nowadays, but this man is so clearly ashamed of his past action that I'd forgive him. Or is he somehow 'dirty' because he had sex with someone who only wanted to do it for the money? Has the prostitute sullied him in some way? What are you saying about this woman who 24 years ago may have been only too happy to earn some money in a way that seemed easy. She probably has regrets now too.
i can't believe this thread is still running. either accept it or leave him. you've been keeping me hanging on too long, never mind him!
fortyplus, did you name yourself after the magazine of that title? if so, i have a vivid image of you in my head...
lovebunny - I'm afraid I daren't Google! But no - I only looked at mn because someone at work told me to (I work in social housing) so I just came up with a boring name, not intending to stick around. I've been here so long that I should really be changing to fiftyplus!
ps I'm a flat chested international athlete if that doesn't burst your bubble too much!
forty! i used to work for a wholesale newsagent and saw things in those days that i had never seen before or since! fortyplus was a magazine of generously proportioned older ladies - my did we laugh! we were young at the time...
I've led a very sheltered life...
Thanks all for your various perspectives and inputs. We have had a thorough chat about things. BF (note: not XBF) has increased his awareness of the sex industry and he made the point that if women really were "happy hookers" then they would be doing it for the minimum wage instead of working at Adsa etc. Its the unpleasantness that makes it so financially lucrative.
I saw David Attenborough on the telly at the weekend - 30 yrs ago - digging up a turtles nest and eating (yes actually cooking and eating!!) the turtle eggs himself.
If he had researched the subject and accessed all the available info, he may have realised that this was a bad idea for turtle conservation in the future. He ate the eggs without question because in the micro culture where he was, it was acceptable.
24 years ago we were all different people. I can accept and move on.
good luck to you both, sounds like a great outcome x
snailfiddler you both sound incredibly sensible - unlike some on this thread!
We all live and learn - I'm quite sure that I'm a nicer person now than I was 24 years ago.
Good luck for the future
Well, if you're happy, that's a good outcome
I'm not really sure what turtles have to do with it though
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