To think I shouldn't be expected to give up my place in the queue just because the lady behind me was disabled?

(419 Posts)
TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 09:58:55

Apologies for the lengthy title.

Had a very busy weekend and stupidly forgot to get stuff in for dd's packed lunches/playtime snacks for this week. She also needed a new drinks bottle. So i got up an hour earlier today, and rushed to the supermarket with her before school.

I joined the queue at a till, and as the person in front was getting served, a lady in a wheelchair queued behind me. She asked if she could go in front of me as she needed to rush for the XX bus, which only comes every forty minutes. I explained that I'm also getting that bus so can't give up my space in the queue or dd will be late for school.

She looked totally shocked. She pointed out it was pissing down with rain and she'd be freezing waiting for the next one. (Just to point out - the bus stop for this bus has a large shelter and is right outside the supermarket).

She asked where i lived, i told her roughly, and she suggested i get the YY bus which would drop me a street away from my normal bus stop (normal bus stop is right outside my flat/front door).

I explained that i couldn't walk that far with dd plus all my shopping bags as she has autism and i need to hold her hand at all times. Whereas getting off at my front door, she's fine to run ahead. I was nice and mild-mannered, but she wasn't pleased. She was completely surprised and raising her eyebrows at the people queuing at the opposite till.

The till operator had heard the conversation and I think it affected how she served me. She made no eye contact, no communication (except asking for my money at the end), zoomed all my stuff through the scanner much too quickly, and spent the whole time talking to the lady in the wheelchair about bloody buses and 'lack of respect'!

During this time, the guy at the front of the opposite queue offered the lady to go in front of him which she refused as she'd already put her stuff on the conveyor belt behind mine.

I'm just so annoyed and feel like a right cow. I felt like everyone was judging me. If she only had a few items, of course i'd have let her in front, but she had more than me!

AIBU?

If everything went exactly how you said then no, I dont think YWBU

WorraLiberty Mon 26-Nov-12 10:02:32

At what point did she say that she wanted to go in front of you because she's disabled?

And of course the checkout operator rushed your stuff through the till...she obviously knew you were in a hurry confused

waitingimpatiently Mon 26-Nov-12 10:03:34

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mrskeithrichards Mon 26-Nov-12 10:03:40

Why did you hang about to hear what the checkout operator talked about?

I don't think Yabu, we all have our reasons for rushing. You said no and sorry, it should've been left at that.

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 10:03:50

No of course not the time she spent moaning about you letting her go in front she could have gone to another till .

missymoomoomee Mon 26-Nov-12 10:03:53

I don't think YABU. She sounds a bit rude telling you where to get on and off the bus so she isn't inconvenienced.

YWNBU at all. nor was the lady in the wheelchair BU to ask but she was to keep banging on.

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 10:05:01

Sorry, should have said. She needed to get the XX bus as it's the only one passing her way which she can access with her chair.

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 10:05:40

I didn't hang about. The till operator was talking to her as she was serving me.

5hounds Mon 26-Nov-12 10:05:41

Yanbu

KenLeeeeeee Mon 26-Nov-12 10:06:04

Hmm, I'm on the fence about this one.

On the one hand, it must be pretty miserable knowing that you'll have to wait an age for the next wheelchair accessible bus (and hope that you can get on that one!). Years ago I dated a guy who used a wheelchair and he used to get very downcast about how difficult public transport was and how unaccommodating people often were about it. If you had more options to get to where you needed to be than this lady did, then I would have been inclined to let her go first.

Then again, the idea that you were expected to risk making yourself late and making life difficult for your daughter who has Autism, doesn't sit right either.

I'm afraid I can't decide if you were BU or not!

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Mon 26-Nov-12 10:06:10

Yanbu. She should not have been cutting it so fine if she was in a rush and new she would have a long wait.

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Mon 26-Nov-12 10:07:00

<adds missing K to new>

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 10:08:13

To be fair, i was in the shortest queue, so there wasn't another one she could join which would've been quicker. She just looked genuinely shocked when i said no, as if she thought i would definitely agree to letting her in front. I feel really crappy about and not sure if i should've let her in front and forked out for a taxi instead.

tiggytape Mon 26-Nov-12 10:08:56

She had no idea you were rushing to catch the same bus as her so she was not being unreasonable in asking to go in front of you. If you don't ask you don't get and all that!

But once you had explained that you too needed the same bus, she should have left it at that instead of questioning your route and your DD's additional needs as to why only that bus was suitable for you.

If you'd just refused on principle then that would have been your choice but pretty unreasonable. As it is, your need was no less than hers so she was very rude to argue with you over it in a shop full of people.

ImperialStateKnickers Mon 26-Nov-12 10:10:14

Yanbu. As a matter of interest, did you both make the xx bus in the end?

DameEnidsOrange Mon 26-Nov-12 10:12:00

YWNBU and I say this as someone who has needed a wheelchair in the past, and has a DC with ASD, so can see both sides.

happyinherts Mon 26-Nov-12 10:12:09

No I don't think you were being unreasonable.

Neither do I think you needed to justify yourself regarding your shopping and your daughter's autism. You needed that bus too and she should have allowed herself a little more time to shop and catch bus. As you say, if she had fewer items than you did you would have been willing to let her in front of you. She was probably stressed realising she was cutting it fine for bus and you were in wrong place at wrong time. Don't let it worry you.

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 10:14:22

Yanbu. As a matter of interest, did you both make the xx bus in the end?

wondering that too did she get her bus along with the op wouldve been kinda frosty with her glaring at the op grin

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 10:15:40

No, Imperial sad. Me and dd made it just as the bus was getting ready to leave, so she would've had to wait on the next one.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 10:16:38

YANBU

Obviously she wasn't unreasonable to ask, but the point at which you said 'Sorry no, I need to get that bus as well' was when she became totally unreasonable.

SlightlySuperiorPeasant Mon 26-Nov-12 10:16:42

YANBU. It was fine for her to ask but very rude if her to keep going on about it after you had said no.

ImperialStateKnickers Mon 26-Nov-12 10:18:46

Yoo hoo Mrsjay <waves>

PeppermintCreams Mon 26-Nov-12 10:20:22

What TiggyTape said. It was a fair request from her until you said you were catching the same bus.

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 10:20:32

<peers through bushes at imperial >

megandraper Mon 26-Nov-12 10:21:25

Well, I'm going to go against everyone in the thread and say YABU. In your situation I would have let her go ahead.

And waitingimpatiently IME, some disabled people I have known have wanted to be treated as equals until it benefits them.
Your comment sounds very unpleasant. Replace the word 'disabled' with 'black' or 'female' or 'gay' - do you think this comment still sounds acceptable?

ImperialStateKnickers Mon 26-Nov-12 10:21:26

Listen Tango, don't feel guilty - you aren't responsible for her. Like everyone else has said.

Don't want to go to work this morning... but have to, bye all.

ImperialStateKnickers Mon 26-Nov-12 10:22:53

well everyone apart from bedhopper grin see you later Mrsjay, quite possibly in your bushes as I'm off walking other people's dogs!

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 10:25:35

quite possibly in your bushes as I'm off walking other people's dogs!

I will be lurking all day grin

op just because a person is disabled doesn't mean you have to feel guilty about anything you were running late she was running late that happens sometimes,

McTagster Mon 26-Nov-12 10:25:43

Yanbu. I wouldn't have let her in front of me had I been in your situation either.
Don't lose any sleep over it smile

shinyblackgrape Mon 26-Nov-12 10:25:49

I just don't know with this one! One other option would have been for the shop to quickly open another till or put her stuff through st customer services.

That would have been a better use of the assustant's time than GUI g on regarding respect.

shinyblackgrape Mon 26-Nov-12 10:26:05

"Going on"

Nancy66 Mon 26-Nov-12 10:28:38

No, YANBU but I probably would have let her in front of me anyhow. Seems like the decent thing to do.

exexpat Mon 26-Nov-12 10:33:21

Did you both manage to get the bus in the end?

waitingimpatiently Mon 26-Nov-12 10:34:06

Erm yeah actually I do. Everyone should be treated equal, why should people get privileged checkout places because they are disabled / black / gay? No, I may not have worded my argument perfectly, I totally understand that disabled people need some special privileges, like blue badges, wider spaces etc, but in this case the OP was perfectly reasonable to say no as she had the same reason (or an equally valid one) for being in a rush.

Imagine if an able bodied person had asked the same thing, started raising eyebrows because OP had said no.

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 10:35:08

your dd is also disabled and your reason for rushing for that bus was related to that SN. So your refusal was completely reasonable. She was rude and selfish IMO.

IWipeArses Mon 26-Nov-12 10:35:52

YWNBU.

Love the idea of letting someone in the queue in front of me because they are black.
Bing bong "Open customer services for the gay gentleman please"

I would have let her go infront.... But only because I wouldn't been to polite/unconfident to say no. I'd have resented it and got myself all annoyed over it and at myself whilst waiting for the next bus.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 10:43:53

Nancy Seems like the decent thing to do Why? Because she's disabled? The OP's daughter has autism and has to have her hand held all the time, why should she have to walk a lot further because someone else, who just happens to be in a wheelchair, is running late to catch the bus she would prefer to? The OP was on a tight schedule to get her DD to school as well, the other woman didn't mention needing to get that bus for any other reason than not wanting to wait?!

SoupDragon Mon 26-Nov-12 10:44:54

She wasn't be unreasonable to ask, you weren't unreasonable to refuse. You had a valid reason to get that particular bus.

megandraper Mon 26-Nov-12 10:52:13

Waiting - you are (wilfully?) misunderstanding me.

I did not say you should let someone go ahead in the queue because they are black/gay/female. My comment to you said nothing about queues at all.

I said that your comment - some disabled people I have known have wanted to be treated as equals until it benefits them - was unnecessary and unpleasant, and that substituting the word 'black' or 'gay' or 'female' for 'disabled' in this sentence might help to show why.

RobinSparkles Mon 26-Nov-12 10:52:57

YANBU.

Personally, if I knew I was going to miss a bus and it was 40 mins until the next one I would just think, "oh dear I've missed one bus, never mind I'll take my time with my shopping and have another look around the shop!" confused

There's no need to be waiting in the cold for 40 mins!

Nancy66 Mon 26-Nov-12 10:55:09

Chippin - because I'd hate to be in a wheelchair. Because I imagine every day is a chore and if you can make it a bit easier for them then why not.

Like I said, I don't think the OP was being unreasonable. I'd have just acted differently

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 11:00:19

I agree, if the exchange went as you described then YWNBU.

You both wanted to catch the same bus. Neither of you wanted to wait for equally good reasons (she would be cold waiting for the next bus, you would be cold as would your daughter with SN who would also be late for school).

your dd is also disabled and your reason for rushing for that bus was related to that SN. So your refusal was completely reasonable

^^This.

The woman wasn't BU for asking, but she was U for making such a fuss when you said no, particularly as someone offered to let her go to the front of the other queue. I do hope there was a coffee shop or somewhere warm she could wait for the bus though - waiting in a bus shelter for 40 minutes is no fun for anyone, let alone someone who can't move about to keep warm.

Bogeyface Mon 26-Nov-12 11:01:51

A wheelchair is not an excuse to be rude or a reason to get your own way. I have had to use one for my pelvic problems several times, my son was in one for 2 years before his operation. I would no more have expected us to go first then than I would now.

SoupDragon Mon 26-Nov-12 11:01:56

Because I imagine every day is a chore and if you can make it a bit easier for them then why not.

Because life with an autistic child is also a "chore" and making someone else's day easier makes yours far more difficult?

ZeldaUpNorth Mon 26-Nov-12 11:02:22

If you just caught the bus as it was leaving, chances are if you let her go first, you would have both missed the bus, assuming wheelchairs are slower than walking (no idea) and the fact she had more things to go through the till. Yanbu!

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 11:03:48

Nancy I would suspect that there are elements of everyday life that can be a "chore" for parents of a child with autism too. My experience of children with autism (and tbf I don't know about the OP's daughter specifically) is that neither changing the routine to get a different bus or waiting around in the cold for 40 minutes and getting to school late would be acceptable.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:04:19

People just assume your child is NT always I find and it does lead to unfair exchanges like this one.

YANBU they were BU but clearly had assumed your DD was NT and you could get any bus. Have been berated by wheelchair user for using disabled toilet with DD who is 6 and in nappies, since she looks NT. I feel your pain. But just tell yourself they werent in possession of full facts when judging you, they dont know your story and that you were NBU.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 11:05:11

Nancy - I often let people go in front of me, especially when I'm not in a hurry. Be it people who are older, or who have small (or any!) children - generally people who for any reason seem a bit less able to wait than myself.

However, in this situation had the OP let the other woman go first the OP would have been late getting her DD to school and put her DD at more risk & discomfort (having to hold hands to walk a lot further home due to her autism). Why do you think she should have done this?

The woman in the wheelchair was perfectly able to wait for the next suitable bus.

If the next bus had been 5 minutes later, taking the same route, but not have wheelchair access then I think the OP would have been unreasonable not to allow the other woman to go first - but given all the facts, I don't think she was at all.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:05:27

Before anyone berates me for using disabled toilet I am not able to bend enough in a small cubicle to change DDs nappy wink

FannyFifer Mon 26-Nov-12 11:07:14

You were not being unreasonable.

Don't feel bad at all, you didn't need to explain yourself, she was rude questioning you.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:07:18

What soupdragon said too, every mundane aspect of daily life like buses and shops is bloody hard work with a child with autism too.

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FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:10:39

I bet she would love to stand so that is v poor taste

waitingimpatiently Mon 26-Nov-12 11:10:55

I think I might be misunderstanding to be honest confused
Queuing aside, if a black person wanted to be treated the same as a white person unless it benefits them, in which case they want to be treated differently, how is this fair?

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:11:08

Not being PO but some things you dont joke about surely?

RobinSparkles Mon 26-Nov-12 11:13:22

BeyondLimits shock! I'd ask for that to be deleted if I were you.

MavisG Mon 26-Nov-12 11:15:19

Wheelchair users often get cold much more/more quickly than non disabled people, less able to move around. So yes, having a seat while she waited wouldn't be that much comfort to her I imagine.
(But op wasn't unreasonable, life sounds challenging for her too. Anyone having an easier time of it, e.g. who'd driven to the supermarket or had some spare time, would have been unkind not to accommodate the lady. This wasn't the case for her.)

I am disabled. Its called black humour. But i'll ask for it to go.

Janeatthebarre Mon 26-Nov-12 11:15:32

She sounds very self entitled and the checkout operator was rude and unprofessional.

SkinnyMarinkADink Mon 26-Nov-12 11:18:02

Yanbu.

I have been asked by someone in a wheel chair of she could go in front of me in tesco the other week, i have sciatica and pgp on this occasion i didn't have my crutches, i said no as i was in pain just standing and needed to be quick..

She really berated me saying i was just pregnant and to get over myself..dh came from the cash point to me in tears being served by a very shock till operater who asked if i was ok!

I've reported, so now just waiting for it to go. Apologies if it upset anyone, I dont think sometimes blush

I really really hate disabled threads. How the fuck can anyone say that a woman in a wheel chair is entitled?

Yes, she may be in a wheel chair but not sure anyone can evaluate her disability or the reason she is in the wheelchair. A wheel chair is not a mode of transport. Disabled people probably don't think, 'hmm, shall I take the wheel chair, or shall I take the car...'

But the underlying reason that she is in a wheel chair is probably complex.

Personally I find this thread depressing. I don't think anyone should be forced to give up their place in a queue, but in the same position as the OP, yeah, I would have.

RobinSparkles Mon 26-Nov-12 11:25:59

Beyond it didn't upset me but I didn't think it would go down well here and I didn't want you to get a flaming. smile

spotsdots Mon 26-Nov-12 11:27:45

As a wheelchair user, I regurlaly get people offering me to jump the queue. But I've never asked to jump the queue. In your case, I would have let her go (regardless whether I'm a wheealchair user or not) simply because it would have been a polite thing to do.

BTW why did you feel the need to justify your no unless you knewfelt you were being unreasonable?

If you had said no and nothing further, I would say YWNBU.

Overall you were both unreasonable. The other person shouldn't expect to jump the queue unless there was a sign for e.g wheelchair accessible therefore priority to the wheelchair users.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:28:44

Ilovemydog do you have a child with autism?

If not then you cant say what you would do in OP's position as you wont fully appreciate her issues.

Noone is saying all disabled people are entitled. However, a disabled individual is just as capable of being a twat as a non disabled person. Or a black person, or a gay person, or a woman. Being in the "minority" does not always make a person nice, or right.
Take the wheelchair and the OPs daughter out of it. Woman asks to go in front as she needs to get a bus. Other woman explains she also needs to get that bus. Perfectly reasonable so far. If the first woman complains and till person complains too, they are both being U.

MistressIggi Mon 26-Nov-12 11:31:06

You were both cutting it very fine in terms of getting that bus weren't you? Very hard to predict how long the queues will be in a supermarket. Just that the competition for the till wouldn't have arisen if one of you had left a bit more time.
Could you have asked the bus driver to wait for her?

'IME, some disabled people I have known have wanted to be treated as equals until it benefits them'

What the frig do you mean by that? Example please.

Idocrazythings Mon 26-Nov-12 11:35:27

Did she have a lot of shopping or just one or two items?

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 11:35:55

Even with an autistic child ilovemydog?

Because under any other circumstances, I would agree that the OP should have done for all the obvious reasons. But when two people have SN and neither knows exactly what the individual circumstances are, how can anyone (including the people involved) say whether one trumped the other or not?

Surely in that situation it must come down to who got there first?

Some people are rude and some of those people are disabled.

I've been quite open on here about the sort of woman my mother is. She's also disabled (blue badge and everything). It doesn't make her less of an arse!

TwoFacedCows Mon 26-Nov-12 11:36:40

i think you did totally the right thing. I would not have even justified myself, a simple 'no, sorry' would have been enough.

I would write in an complain about the rude till lady.

threesocksmorgan Mon 26-Nov-12 11:37:50

yanbu
how odd of the woman.

Good point twofaced, i would def complain to tesco for their rude tillperson!

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:38:21

Quite glad am going to work since this thread is going to go along the lines of either that disabled people are entitled or that autism isnt a 'real disability'

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:39:54

Well some people will be saying those things , thankfully there are sensible people around too

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 11:39:55

Ilovemydog - let me hazzard a guess that you have no experience of a child with autism?

Spots - so being polite extends to putting a child with autism in danger or discomfort and making her late for school? Really?

Took 79 posts for you to be the first to say either though...

<goes away as things are coming out wrong and dont want to pick a fight!>
Sorry fanjo, I didnt mean that how it looks!

"BTW why did you feel the need to justify your no unless you knew felt you were being unreasonable?"
'Justify' is a bit pejorative here, don't you think? The OP explained her 'no' by telling the other woman that she also needed to get the bus. At which point this other woman looked shocked and started quizzing the OP about where she lived and instructed her on which other bus she should get.

Personally I think the OP was very polite to explain further, as personally I'd have told her to fuck right off at that point.

Beyondlimits: I think it would be fair to say that we all know some people (of all descriptions) who want to be treated the same way as everyone else unless they benefit from it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with their race, gender, sexuality or any other characteristic/combination of characteristics they might have.

However, in the case of disabled people. Things like blue badges or disabled toilets are not some perk to 'make up for' having a disability. They are there so that disabled people aren't excluded from everyday activities. It's a way of removing or mitigating the aspects of the environment that are disabling for people.

It is incredibly irritating when people make judgements about how things will affect you just because of how you look (to them at that particular moment). And it's very annoying that so many people seem to see a wheelchair as some kind of 'gold standard' in disability (i.e. everything else is somehow lesser).

I can imagine that it was very difficult for the OP to say 'no' to the lady's request. It's horrible having to explain your/your children's disability to strangers, and often quite demeaning, particularly when people don't believe you and get all judgemental.

It was very rude of the lady to keep going on/involve other people. If it mattered so much, she could have gone in front of the guy who offered. It sounds like he'd've helped her to move her shopping too. The checkout operator is supposed to be polite to the person s/he is serving at the time, not passive aggressively talk to the customer behind them about lack of respect. That's unacceptable behaviour and I doubt her manager/supervisor would be pleased.

EverlongLovesHerChristmasRobin Mon 26-Nov-12 11:49:08

In your shoes I think I would have done the same. I don't have a child with autism so I don't know how difficult this might be but I think sometimes you just have to make a decision quick, hope it's the right one and stick to it.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:50:30

Beyond. People said the entitled thing and implied the other. I wasnt first. Could just see how it will go

I see that in the age I took typing that, you have retracted the potentially problematic post.

I do agree that disabled people are just as capable of being arses as everyone else, though. Being an arse is definitely something that cuts right across all social categories.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 11:51:04

Its ok beyond, no offence taken grin

SoleSource Mon 26-Nov-12 11:53:54

Not sure I believe any of this.

NaiceSpam Mon 26-Nov-12 11:54:30

Don't sweat it OP - you did the right thing. The difference between you and that lady was not that she has needs and you don't (your daughter is SN); it's that if she'd been the one who happened to be fastest to the queue, you wouldn't have expected her to inconvenience herself for you. This is an unreasonable expectation. (Even if it's reasonable to enquire, it's not reasonable enough to get all uppity about it!)

Possibly she made a big hoo-ha about it because she was embarrassed to have been denied, so tried to make it into a matter of principle in the hope that everyone would be thinking "what a bitch" about you, not "what a self-righteous old goat" about her.

RyleDup Mon 26-Nov-12 11:54:41

Its just one of those things op. generally I would have let the lady in the wheel chair go first, but not under the circumstances you describe. Its just one of those things.

spotsdots Mon 26-Nov-12 11:55:12

IMO it doesn't matter whether OP's daughter had a visible disability or not, the other lady was wrong to expect the OP to let her go first. But OP I think you knew as soon as she asked you, you should have let her even though you probably needed the priority more than her and also you were in the queue first, this is based on the fact that you felt the need to justify your reason.

Wheelchair or not I assume she would have asked for preference for some other reasons.

OP don't feel bad for your actions. Your child's disability is nobody's business, you shouldn't justify yourself.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 11:55:34

I would have given her priority. If you only went to get a few things, surely you could hold your bags in one hand and your dd with the other? It just meant a bit of discomfort for you, taking an alternative bus and walking one extra street. The other lady did not have a choice. It was either this bus or waiting for an hour in the rain and cold.

Sorry, think yabu. And apparently the check-out lady and other customers thought so too.

sashh Mon 26-Nov-12 11:58:38

Does the supermarket have all checkouts wide enough for a wheelchair? Was this the only one she could use? If so YWBU.

Could you have offered to help her?

maddening Mon 26-Nov-12 12:03:13

I would have done the same in your circumstance but would have said I will try and hold the bus if I could and press ganged the bus in to waiting for her.

she also would not have got the bus if she had gone as she had more shopping and it is likely that getting out would have been slower for her in a wheel chair if you and you daughter only just got the bus and the till person rushed your stuff through ( albeit in a huff).

FeckOffCup Mon 26-Nov-12 12:04:22

Personally I think the OP was very polite to explain further, as personally I'd have told her to fuck right off at that point.

Agree with this, the lady in the wheelchair was very rude to more or less tell the OP that she can get a different bus in order to try to barge in front of her in the queue IMHO, the OPs daughter had every bit as much need to be on that bus as the other lady did and it would have pissed me right off in the OPs place to be told she didn't.

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 12:05:08

Have some people missed the fact that the OP's daughter has autism?! confused

Or do you just not understand the implications?

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 12:05:46

Spots But OP I think you knew as soon as she asked you, you should have let her even though you probably needed the priority more than her and also you were in the queue first

What on earth???

The thing is, if it takes you longer to do something or you know you can only get one bus, you usually make sure that you allow yourself enough time and/or feel annoyed at yourself if you haven't. It's no reasonable to take that out on other people.

I'm often annoyed at myself as I attempt to run for my train home from work because I haven't allowed myself enough time (and I have an invisible disability that means that trying to 'run' for the train is really not easy, and I do suffer for it afterwards). I'm not annoyed at other people who happen to be going about their daily business. I just resolve to be more organised in future. We all have to plan for the realities of our lives. Lots of people have to work around crappy bus timetables (often with a wait longer than 40 minutes), regardless of their physical abilities.

If anyone wants to be annoyed, they should be annoyed at the bus companies that are still running buses that are not accessible to people using wheelchairs. They are being unreasonable!

YWNBU. She's entitled to ask, but not entitled to queue jump in this instance.

And any supermarket with checkouts too narrow for someone using a wheelchair is also being unreasonable.

singinggirl Mon 26-Nov-12 12:10:47

DS2 has Aspergers, and if he was late for school, therefore putting him out of routine, this would wreck his entire day - we are talking tears and upset at the end of the day about what he has missed etc. I don't know what all the OP's DD's issues are, but they can be far reaching, and based on what she has told us she was NBU.

OptimisticPessimist Mon 26-Nov-12 12:12:23

YWNBU. I don't think it's a totally black and white issue - if for example she had said "I need to catch XX bus for an important hospital appointment" and you knew you could get YY bus with slight inconvenience but still making it to school on time than priority would shift to the woman in the wheelchair. As it is, you were in the queue first, had fewer items, also had a disability issue and had somewhere important to get to. She WNBU to ask, but once you said no and that you needed the same bus she should have left it.

" But OP I think you knew as soon as she asked you, you should have let her even though you probably needed the priority more than her and also you were in the queue first, this is based on the fact that you felt the need to justify your reason."

spotsdots, I really don't get your thought processes here. Because the OP was polite enough to EXPLAIN (not justify - explain) her reasons, rather than just give an abrupt no - she should have let this rude woman skip her in the queue? OP has already said " I felt like everyone was judging me." That is a situation where all but the most battle-hardened of us will feel the need to DEFEND themselves against unreasonable pressure.

By your logic, as long as a bully has a couple of minions nodding agreement with them, you should let yourself be bullied. No!

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 12:16:31

Hi again.

No the checkouts are all the same width (definitely wide enough for a wheelchair). But the till i was at had the shortest queue. Just me, the lady in the wheelchair, and the person who was getting served before me.

I had maybe a basketful of stuff (but it was in a trolley), whereas her trolley (one of the smaller ones) was pretty much full.

I didn't even think of asking the bus driver to wait blush. I was just relieved to have made it myself with dd (who had gotten really upset about rain getting on her skirt, but that's another story).

To be fair, it's a blessing the checkout lady rushed through my stuff or I'd have missed it. If i had missed the bus, I suppose i would've phoned a taxi, but that would really be a last resort.

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 12:17:22

in this instance both adults were in a rush and both adults needed to be somewhere and catch a bus
I am sure the OP wouldnt let a door slam in a disabled persons face because she was in a rush, this woman was a bit rude the op was polite but assertive, I am sure the woman would have got over it and caught the next bus ,

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 12:18:49

Tango you did nothing wrong this woman had a trolley load she should have got herself organised was there anybody with her as how was she going to get her trolley load on the bus and push her wheelchair confused

BannedKillerFirework Mon 26-Nov-12 12:19:55

YWNBU.

As others have said, it was fine to ask, but to keep nagging and making a show was very unreasonable. The other queue and the check out woman should have minded their own business. I would have got the staff members name and reported them.

Not everyone wants to stand in a shop first thing in the morning having a 'one up-manship' debate about who is more in need of catching a bus on time and discussing their and their families various disabilities. The queue would probably have moved a bit quicker without it too.

Bet the other shoppers enjoyed the show though, while feeling very glad it wasn't them wink

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 12:21:46

No, i didn't see anyone with her at the till. It wasn't a big trolley; one of those smaller ones that you can slip your wheelchair under. About the size of two baskets.

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 12:23:56

Oh ok i was just being wondering, I am sure the woman got to where she was going fine

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 12:24:30

As far as I understood, OP's daughter has no trouble walking, just needs her hand held.

Couldn't OP have given her dd a couple of light bags to carry, and carried the others in one hand while holding on to dd? It was only for one street. It seems more like OP wanted the most convenient option and was not willing to help out a fellow human being in greater need.

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 12:26:22

But the OP's daughter has autism!

She has her own 'greater need'

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 12:28:08

that fellow human being managed to get herself to the supermarket herself do her shopping she then got in a tizz because she would have missed her bus. I am disabled and manage to go out and about and do my thing but i would never ask a person in front of me if i could go first so i could catch my bus especially somebody who had a young child with them and probably looked harassed as it was so early in the morning,

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 12:29:17

I didn't know that autism equals not being able to a walk a street. oP said her dd needs her hand held, and OP could do that by rearranging her bags and having dd hold a couple of lighter ones.

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 12:30:07

Hi, Flatbread.

You're right, my dd has no trouble walking. It's just the lack of safety awareness that's an issue. But she's only little (she's 4), and none of my bags were particularly light.

It was only one street, but would have included 10-15 minutes of walking onto my journey. And dd reacts really badly to the rain.

I wanted the most convenient option for my daughter, not for me. And yes, i feel bad about it. But as her mum, i felt i ought to put her before a stranger. But i know i was probably in the wrong/selfish to do so, hence my posting here to ask.

OptimisticPessimist Mon 26-Nov-12 12:31:56

It's not just about the walk - it's about the effect that it would have on the OP's DD as a result of her ASD. Given that they were already out of routine, missing the bus/having to go a different route/being late for school could potentially cause her DD problems for the rest of the day.

" But i know i was probably in the wrong/selfish to do so, hence my posting here to ask."
I really don't think you were the one in the queue being selfish!

moosemama Mon 26-Nov-12 12:33:56

As others have said, it was fine for her to ask the question, but she should have accepted no for an answer and not taken it any further.

My eldest ds has ASD. He doesn't run off, but still needs to hold hands along busy roads for safety reasons at the age of 10. He would have needed to know in advance which bus we were going on, at what time, from which bus stop and where we would be getting off. If any of those parameters then changed he would have become extremely anxious and upset. I wouldn't have been happy having to explain all this to someone who was being pushy about queue jumping regardless of whether they had disability. His disability is invisible, that doesn't make it less difficult to cope with or his needs less important. He would have needed to catch the next XX bus, just as much as she did, although for different reasons.

Had I been on my own I would have been happy to let the lady go first and wait for the next bus or catch a different one, but this simply wouldn't have been possible if I had ds with me - although to the other lady, the checkout person and the rest of the queue it would not have been obvious why and I would therefore have felt the need to explain - especially if I was on the receiving end of judgemental or harsh looks. I shouldn't have to, but this is real life and I understand that people would just see me and a 'to all outward appearances' typical 10 year old boy and just thought I was being selfish. Other people with thicker skins than me would be able to just say no and ignore the looks, I'm just not that confident and don't like people to think bad of either me or my ds.

blackeyedsusan Mon 26-Nov-12 12:34:10

so one disabled person should give way to another?

autism is a disability protected by the disabled discrimination act.

MrsCampbellBlack Mon 26-Nov-12 12:35:50

I don't think you were unreasonable. But as others have said the checkoutperson was - she could have asked for another till to be open of someone to help pack to get you both through quicker.

Thought processes like spotsdots are exactly what make it so bloody humiliating for so many disabled people. Lots of disabilities (probably the majority) are not easily visible. Someone's disability is not of less importance because they have to explain it to ignorant people who assume that wheelchair use trumps everything else/people can't be disabled unless they have a big flashing sign above their head a wheelchair.

It is truly awful having to explain to someone why you need them to give up a seat on a train bus when they look at you with incredulity (because you appear to be a reasonably fit woman in her early 30s, for example). Or they might completely refuse, leaving you in (more) pain and humiliated. It must be just as bad (and possibly worse) for the parents of children with autism whose lives are undoubtedly made more difficult by judgemental arses who give them dirty looks and made passive aggressive comments about bad parenting, etc. Or who refuse to believe that they actually need a blue badge (and have no idea how hard it is to get one). Or, as in this case, refuse to believe that there may be a perfectly valid reason that they can't let someone else go first/miss the bus/walk further, even when they've explained their own needs.

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 12:36:21

You were not wrong or selfish.

Mrsjay Mon 26-Nov-12 12:36:44

I really don't think you were the one in the queue being selfish!

I dont think so either,

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 12:37:42

Exactly, Arbitrary.

MrsBethel Mon 26-Nov-12 12:38:08

YANBU

PessaryPam Mon 26-Nov-12 12:38:50

Flat, do you have any understanding of autism? At all???!!

Rudolphstolemycarrots Mon 26-Nov-12 12:39:45

I think the lady in the wheel chair should have got to the till earlier so she didn't have to rush. She chose to put pressure on someone who was also rushing for the bus when the situation could have been avoided completely with a little forethought.

moosemama Mon 26-Nov-12 12:42:25

Tango, I don't think you were being selfish. As a parent of a child who has ASD myself I know how much these things can affect our dcs and in my ds's case it would have meant him being unsettled for days and really affected school and home-life, had a knock-on effect with his siblings etc.

As his mother, it's my job to try and make the best decisions I can for him. The world is a scary and confusing place to him in many ways and I have to do what I can to help mitigate that. Sometimes that means having to make tough decisions that I feel a little uncomfortable about.

Like you, I would have felt bad about it, because I wouldn't like to think of the other lady missing the only bus with wheelchair access and having to wait in the rain for another and I would have made a different decision if I had been on my own - but the fact remains that you made the best choice for your dd and you are perfectly within your rights to do that.

WholeLottaRosie Mon 26-Nov-12 12:48:28

YANBU

My best friend is severely disabled, everything thing she does has to be thought out and planned in advance. There is absolutely no way she would try and make someone else feel bad because she hadn't left enough time to do a task.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 12:51:06

Tango, It was a difficult situation and the bloody bus companies should have more wheel-chair friendly services.

To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?

missymoomoomee Mon 26-Nov-12 12:54:55

Are you being deliberatly ignorant Flatbread autism can't be 'cured' by telling people to get on with it ffs.

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 12:56:02

Words fail me.

To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

Er my severely autistic son will never live in the real world. He will require 24 hour 1:1 care for the rest of his life. HTH

Summerblaze Mon 26-Nov-12 13:07:32

Flatbread.

Have my very first biscuit.

spotsdots Mon 26-Nov-12 13:07:58

Ok, I don't know what's happened to my last post explaining to those who are bend on twisting my opinion. This should be short and clear enough.

Read properly OP YWNBU for saying no. There is too much ignorance about less visible disabilities such as autism and personally I don't waste my breath explaining to ignorants. The other lady and the till operator (who needs to be taught/ trained about less visible disabilities) falls in this category. Explaining wouldn't make a difference.

OP some people only see what they want to see and believe only what they want to believe. Even if your daughter had a sticker on her forhead with" I suffer from autism" (I say this as a joke), there will be someone who will say but she can stand and walk, see etc.

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 13:09:57

Flatbread, it's really not that simple. I can't believe i'm having to do this for the second time today, but dd doesn't just dislike rain - she hates it. She says it's sore when it lands on her skin. She says the noise of it makes her ears sore too. She thinks that if she gets wet, she can't breathe. And god help us if she gets even a drop of it on her glasses.

No matter how much i force rain onto her, she'll never just get used to it.

We've established some coping strategies so that she no longer freaks out as much. She can just about tolerate light rain now, but when it's as heavy as it was today, it causes her great upset and - according to her - pain.

DS1 used to strip off if he got the teeniest tiniest drop of water on him (thankfully no longer as he's 5 foot 6 and growing an inch a day)

ChaoticismyLife Mon 26-Nov-12 13:13:00

To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

I'm shockshockshock

Flatbread your ignorance is breath taking.

TangoPurple Mon 26-Nov-12 13:13:41

Saintly, my dd used to do that too! It drove me bonkers. Thanfully, she's no longer that extreme.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 13:15:46

Spots - that has nothing to do with the post that has everyone wondering what the hell you were thinking when you said But OP I think you knew as soon as she asked you, you should have let her even though you probably needed the priority more than her and also you were in the queue first, this is based on the fact that you felt the need to justify your reason.

Flatbread - really, you know nothing. Make yourself more aware of what having autism really means or just stop posting such offensive crap.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 13:17:20

Tango listen up my friend, you didn't do anything wrong and you don't have to justify yourself. You did what you needed to do. The other woman put herself in that situation by not planning her time better. You weren't selfish or rude - she was.

AvonCallingBarksdale Mon 26-Nov-12 13:17:55

To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

Yes, you silly parents of autistic children. Hope you heed some of Flatbread's advice here, probably just what you've been waiting for hmm

AvonCallingBarksdale Mon 26-Nov-12 13:18:32

Oh, and OP YANBU in the slightest.

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 13:19:44

YANBU at all, you had yor valid reasons, in the time she spent talking about buses she could have joined a quicker queue. Autism is also a ds ability and you needed to take a quick safe way, or your dd could ut herself in danger

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 13:19:52

And, I would imagine, the OP implementing strategies which helps her daughter to avoid rain are the coping strategies that enable her to access the 'real world'.

I'm not going to suggest this is the same at all, but I am very sensitive to sunlight. I keep the curtains in the house closed because the sunlight (even on overcast) hurts my eyes. My skin is very sensitive to UV light. I wear sunglasses on all but the dullest days because it hurts my eyes not to. If I expose myself to sunlight instead of 'avoiding' it in these ways it won't benefit me at all - I won't get used to it. I will just be in constant pain/discomfort.

RyleDup Mon 26-Nov-12 13:20:18

Flatbread, not all people with autism are able to cope in the 'real world' when they grow up. Exposing people to things they dislike does not always make them better equiped to deal with them, and sometimes it makes things worse.

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 13:21:09

I have a dd with Autism, some are never able to be independent so flatbreads argument is a non issue.

ChaoticismyLife Mon 26-Nov-12 13:22:56

Meant to say, until I got diverted, OP YANBU

You did the right thing for your daughter smile

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 13:29:31

I was completing dd DLA form, somewhere I found a definition of Autism as being an organic brain disorder which characterises itself through behaviour. So no it's Wth the person for life, yes some less severe Autistic people do learn to cope, but those on the more severe end of the sectrum never gain indeoendence and have to have constant care and suervisoon

PimpMyHippo Mon 26-Nov-12 13:29:45

I don't think YWBU, but in your situation I think I would have told the lady in the wheelchair that I would try to get the driver to wait if I got to the bus before her. That would have been a good compromise and hopefully ended up with both of you getting on the bus and not having your mornings ruined (provided the driver was considerate enough to listen to you and wait). But it's done now, so there's no point in worrying about it.

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 13:33:47

Flathead,

OP IS using appropriate coping strategies to deal with her dd's autism and how it affects her experience of "normal" life.

These include:

* getting to the till in time to make the bus,
* knowing which bus, from where and when,
* getting off the bus near home so she doesn't have a safety problem
* making sure her dd isn't late to school, which can be very disruptive for an autistic child

Beyond using sensible strategies like the above, what do you think she should be doing?

Using your logic, the woman in the wheelchair should snap out of it and get up and run for the bus. After all, walking is a normal everyday part of life, so she should just get used to it hmm

The bus driver almost certainly wouldn't be allowed to/able to wait because s/he has a timetable to keep to and s/he is probably under a lot of pressure in this regard. As I said earlier, it's the bus company that is unreasonable here as there is just no justifiable reason for bus companies to be running any buses that are not accessible for those with mobility issues. The disabled people aren't the 'problem'; the buses are.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 26-Nov-12 13:37:08

Good God Flatbread you clearly live a bloody sheltered life biscuit

OP - YWNBU. The woman wasn't unreasonable to ask, but I think her behaviour following that was disgusting and rude - she effectively bullied you by enlisting the support of others around and the checkout operator.
I would be inclined to complain to Tesco, because your DDs autism is just as much a disability as needing to use a wheelchair and their staff need to be aware of that and be sensitive to it.

MrsDeVere Mon 26-Nov-12 13:40:37

I was getting annoyed at this thread until flatbread came along with her hilarious comments.

Not with you op. I think you behaved fine.
The way people seem to want to believe the woman was all entitled and huffy. This happens on threads about old people a lot as well.

This woman asked because she has a very limited choice of transport due to her disability.
Her being disabled does not mean she is an expert in all disabilities and may be as clueless as flatbread. She probably didn't understand why your DD's needs were as great as her own.

The op was perfectly polite and reasonable IMO.

Disabled people shouldn't have to be nicer and better behaved than anyone else.

And what a lad of utter bollocks about them only wanting equality when t suits them ffs these threads really bring the wankers out of the woodwork.

MrsjREwing Mon 26-Nov-12 13:40:58

OP, I have a disability too yanbu.

When I go out I plan, I don't take a bus if I did and was liable to miss it I would potter around the shop.

I wouldn't even think of being so cheeky as to inconvenience someone else no matter their circumstances for my poor planning issues.

I think the fact she refused to change till and questioned you so hard says all you need to know about her, as has been said knobs come disabled or non disabled. I read on another forum recently of a person upset at disablist attitudes and that person getting upset at being discriminated against made fatist comments.

Kafri Mon 26-Nov-12 13:42:19

YADNBU,
I have no problem with her asking but your explanation should have been enough for her. You weren't rude and had a genuine need to get on tat bus.

I work with kids with Autism and some of them really wouldn't have coped with me taking them on a different bus/different route.

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 13:44:06

Good idea I would complain to Tesco about the way the till operator behaved towards you, it was to do with that other woman. Your dd has much of a disability as she has though different still a disability

KellyEllyChristmasBelly Mon 26-Nov-12 13:46:38

*To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations? * Are you trying to offend or are you just extremely ignorant?

MrsjREwing Mon 26-Nov-12 13:46:45

Yy to complaining to Tesco, advise them on their rudge judgemental staff and ask if they would like to inform their staff on there being more than visable disabilities.

KellyEllyChristmasBelly Mon 26-Nov-12 13:47:18

*To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?* Flatbread are you trying to offend or are you just extremely ignorant?

alison222 Mon 26-Nov-12 13:51:47

O,P YANBU
Hidden disabilities are IMO sometimes more difficult to deal with as they are hidden and so people just don't believe you.
Then of course there are those who have no experience of them at all and are therefore ignorant of the implications and should not make comments as thoughtless as those from earlier in this thread.
There is nothing you can do to change what happened now, and I think that in your position I would have done the same.

IsabelleRinging Mon 26-Nov-12 13:54:00

YWNBU

The woman quite rightly asked if she could go in front of you, you would have missed your bus if you had obliged and dd would have been late for school. It was clearly not a matter of life or death so you were right to say sorry, but no. TOUGH TITTY!

EuroShagmore Mon 26-Nov-12 13:59:22

Another vote for YWNBU here.

It was fine for her to ask, but perfectly reasonable for you to refuse in the circumstances.

And the checkout assistant was obviously rude and unreasonable.

procrastinor Mon 26-Nov-12 14:05:30

Gosh flatbread. I don't quite know what to say about that but that is the most breathtaking lack of understanding of autism I've seen. Do you think children with autism are just being precious?

Hopefully your post just came out wrong. Or iPhone's autocorrect really has a mind if its own.

HoleyGhost Mon 26-Nov-12 14:11:25

Your only mistake was in being friendly and engaging with the woman.

I think you could have avoided the drama by not telling her where you lived, but simply repeating that you need that bus and then ignoring.

The cashier was ignorant

Blatherskite Mon 26-Nov-12 14:13:12

Op YWNBU. Your need was just as great if not greater.

I also know an autistic child who strips the second he gets even slightly damp too.

Flatbread seems to have gotten Austism and toddler-ism mixed up. My DD is 2 and would get stroppy if she got wet in the rain and I was rushing her along because we were late. She will grow out of it and learn how to adjust and cope - the Ops DD may not.

BannedKillerFirework Mon 26-Nov-12 14:33:04

The disabilities have nothing to do with the scenario.

They were both cutting it fine for the bus. By the sound of it, one was going to miss it, whoever went first.

The greater need would be who would come out worse as a result of the missed bus- would a child be punished for being late for school? Would someone face a disciplinary for lateness (maybe on their last warning due to repeated lateness because they are up in the night because of goodness knows what problems)

OP is now on here- clearly distressed by the events. What right did strangers have to put her through that?

FannyFifer Mon 26-Nov-12 14:52:14

Flatbread what an utterly twattish thing to say.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 14:59:02

I would dearly love if my DD was going to grow up and live in the real world and shop in supermarkets rather than needing care all her life, Flatbread.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 15:03:24

I wasn't being arsey. I am sorry it came across that way.

It was a genuine question. I am curious on how parents who have children with autism help them cope with the real world.

I am not arguing that it is not a disability, it is. I am assuming that parents with autistic children want them to be functioning adults with a job and family one day. I am just wondering how they go about in helping the children to cope with everyday situations?

It was not a judgement, but a question, for ffs. Disability is not something to be only discussed in hushed, reverential terms. It is ok to be curious and ask questions.

Aboutlastnight Mon 26-Nov-12 15:05:50

I'd do it for anyone who needed to catch a bus if i wasn't in a hurry. But if I needed to be somewhere - getting kids from school/ drs apt/work I would not make myself late. She should have left herself more time to be sure of catching bus.

You were not being unreasonable.

MrsDeVere Mon 26-Nov-12 15:08:29

Autism is not something that can be cured. It is a life long condition.
If a child is 'high functioning' you may be able to give them coping stratagies when dealing with change in routine.

But even a high functioning 4 year old is going to struggle.

Some children cannot bear loud noises. You will not make them better by making them listen to loud noises until they get used to them (for example).

Look at it this way - my friend's girl has cerebral palsy. Being able to walk would make her adult life a lot easier. No amount of coaxing and stratagies is going to make that happen.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 15:09:02

To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world? Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?

It was not 'A question' it was 'A judgement'

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 15:11:58

Having a job and a family is plain impossible for many people with autism. This is as concrete as somebody with muscular dystrophy not growing up to win the London marathon. How nice of you to rub salt in this fact for people who are already coping with it.

What the hell are you talking about Flatbread? Are you just stirring? Unbelievable.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 15:12:28

I am also curious because my close friend's husband is autistic. He is a mathematician, and has three children. He obviously has led a full life, although I do now it is quite difficult for my friend, living with someone who is autistic (and I am sorry if I am offending anyone here, she loves her dh but he is hard work).

He must have strong coping strategies, otherwise he could not have been as successful as he is in building a career and family. Especially in a new country (he moved from the US to Europe when he was 19).

So just asking how do you prepare an autistic child to cope? What is so insensitive about that ffs?

EasilyBored Mon 26-Nov-12 15:13:51

Assuming that parents of children with autism want their children to have jobs and families? Do you even understand how hurtful that might be?

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 15:14:19

Autism is a wide spectrum. You don't progress from one end of it to the other by immersion therapy, bullying, miraculously good parenting or by any other means.

God I didn't realise there were people so ignorant.

MamaMary Mon 26-Nov-12 15:14:25

Whether or not the OP's daughter has autism is totally irrelevant. If OP and her DD had missed the bus, her DD would have been late for school. Why should she have been expected to do that, or pay for a taxi, just because someone else was cutting it too fine?

OP, you don't need to justify your reply to the lady, then or no. You were perfectly reasonable.

EasilyBored Mon 26-Nov-12 15:14:26

Autism is a spectrum. It's not a one size fits all label. Look it up.

HollaAtMeBaby Mon 26-Nov-12 15:14:35

YANBU, OP. On a practical level, have you tried a wriststrap for your DD so that she can't bolt when you have your hands full?

moosemama Mon 26-Nov-12 15:14:36

Flatbread

Autism is a spectrum condition, which means children can be affected in a myriad of different ways. Some will never become independent adults, others may have some degree of independence but will require a lot of support and others may eventually manage to live to all intents and purposes independent lives, but with someone 'looking out for them'.

My ds is, we hope, in the latter category. He may not be, he may turn out to be in the middle group and no-one can make that call at present.

We work on his life-skills, social-skills, anxiety management, emotional regulation on a daily basis, as we have done for the whole of his life. We help him to learn strategies to cope with what to him, is an extremely chaotic and confusing world. At present he is able to cope with some small degrees of change in his life, but the time to address how he copes when challenged would not be at a bus stop on a rainy day on the way to school. In order to be able to face school he needs a structured routine that keeps his anxiety levels to a minimum.

To explain all the strategies we are working on and the way we hope it will help him progress towards independence would take an incredibly long and complex post that isn't feasible here, but if you genuinely would like to learn more about and come to understand Autism better you could do worse than visiting somewhere like the National Autistic Society Website which should be able to answer some of your more specific questions.

MrsDeVere Mon 26-Nov-12 15:16:30

Flatbread you do understand what 'spectrum' means dont you?

As in Autistic Spectrum Disorder.

My DS can dress himself and talk. I cant leave him alone though.
The little girl I work with may never speak and needs 24 hour care.
My friends boy is in university.

But as you already have access to the internet I am not sure you really needed to be told that.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 15:19:12

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 15:20:48

Moose, thank you for your answer.

procrastinor Mon 26-Nov-12 15:21:23

moose that was a really lovely post.

I am assuming that parents with autistic children want them to be functioning adults with a job and family one day.

Well that's never going to happen for my son. Autism is not one condition, it is many. My son is a teenager who has one clear spoken word (mummy). Jobs, marriage, relationships are unlikely to ever be a feature of his life. As a teenager he is working below level 1 in most school subjects (level one in maths maybe?). It's very unlikely that he'll ever be able to walk down the road unaccompanied - he has too many involuntary impulses to not be able to step out in front of the traffic let alone live what you call a real life. (His life is very real, even if you would find it hard to value it).

If you want to know more about severe autism - at least as it affects my son- read my blog (it's linked from my profile). Otherwise please don't comment on things you clearly have no knowledge of.

oh not the old classic 'professionally offended' again. biscuit

Nope, takes more than breathtaking ignorance to offend my rhino hide.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 15:26:21

And btw, every disability are on a spectrum, not just autism. I was asking people who had autistic children on this thread, what strategies they use to help their children cope? Some examples would be more insightful than arsey answers.

laptopdancer Mon 26-Nov-12 15:26:22

The woman who asked to go first crossed the line when she asked where the OP lives. What an intrusive question. YABU.

Aboutlastnight Mon 26-Nov-12 15:27:38

The way I understand it is: people with autism are all individuals, they are not 'the same,' and that autism changes throughout a person's lifetime, it does not remain the same.

To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

^^THAT'S a genuine question? Seriously? Right.

The answers are in my blog. I talk about it quite a bit there. As do quite a few of the blogs I read written by other mothers following different paths. All interesting.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 15:34:18

must add that using the term "Professionally offended" to those who are genuinely upset by a comment in relation to their own kids is low.

Plus I wish my offence on here was professional as I would be loaded.

kikid Mon 26-Nov-12 15:34:35

op yanbu

threesocksmorgan Mon 26-Nov-12 15:36:01

"Plus I wish my offence on here was professional as I would be loaded."

that is brilliant

Yes, charge out at ABA consultant rates. That'll be £350 for that bit of professional offence please

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 15:38:35

grin

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 15:41:16

jj your blog is wonderful. I spent a happy hour yesterday reading it, your boys are gorgeous.

Flat, I think it's bull that you were asking a genuine question - you were being critical of parents whose children have a disability you know shockingly little about. You should apologise properly and then go away and do some basic reading, IMO.

moosemama Mon 26-Nov-12 15:44:44

I'm sorry I should have made it clearer that whereas my ds can - to some extent - make progress towards some degree of independence, other children with more severe autism can't.

Your original comment - quoted just above - seemed to imply that you think/thought all we need to do is expose our dcs to situations they can't handle in order for them to suddenly 'get it' and learn to cope. That simply isn't the case for many/most of our dcs.

My ds for example, doesn't run off, but would step in front of a car in a heartbeat without thinking. No amount of exposing him to busy roads is going to change that and it would be extremely naive, not to mention insulting, of someone to think that we haven't been teaching him the green cross code and road safety rules since he was tiny - or that we don't remind him every single time he gets too close to a road or steps out without looking.

It's also pretty offensive to suggest that our dcs don't live in the real world. They very much do and as saintly said they have very real lives, even if that might not be your idea of 'real life'.

... and I have to tell you that not every disability is part of a spectrum disorder.

I am very much aware that words on a screen can be interpreted/misinterpreted in many ways and am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, hoping that you are genuinely unaware of these things, but willing and interested enough to learn and perhaps modify your reactions in future as a result. If you are genuinely interested and have a bit of time to spare, there is an awful lot of information out there at your disposal via the most basic internet searches.

MrsMelons Mon 26-Nov-12 15:46:38

YWNBU - if you had been in a wheelchair in front of her also then she would have had to wait anyway.

I can understand why she asked (a little surprised as most people wouldn't) but she was unreasonable for questioning you.

I wouldn't have let her in front if it meant my DCs being late for school and they don't have SN but I would have done if I was not in a rush of course.

moosemama Mon 26-Nov-12 15:47:06

Just realised I had missed a deleted post. If the professionally offended term was bandied about, then perhaps I have been a little over-generous in my interpretation of your posts. sad

MrsDeVere Mon 26-Nov-12 15:51:06

Not all disabilities are on a spectrum confused

Thanks greeny - he's doing so well now (thanks in no small part to a mystery mumsnetter's generosity!)

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 15:54:52

Green, glad that you are a mindreader, not hmm I think you owe me an apology, if anything.

Fwiw, I do not think the poor woman on the wheelchair did anything wrong. She cannot physically walk or physically get on to a bus that does not have wheelchair access. It was perfectly fine for her to ask OP and try to come up with a solution that worked for both of them.

OP and here daughter can walk, holding hands. Her dd might be uncomfortable in the rain, aggravated by her autism. But still, they can do it.

In this instance, the need of the woman on the wheelchair was greater, and OP should have helped. Just as many of us let children go to a public loo first, even if we are bursting at the seams and are uncomfortable holding it in.

It is just part of being a civilised society.

threesocksmorgan Mon 26-Nov-12 15:57:31

wow
thick very
"aggravated"
my dd is in a wheelchair. my friends dd has autism.
they are both equally disabled.....it is not a game of top trumps.

Not sure why it was compulsory for her to wait for forty minutes outside in the cold and rain. Is there any reason she can't just sit in the cafe (or wherever) for half an hour and then go back out for the next one? If she had to take that bus she should have allowed herself more time. That is true of anyone, disabled or not.

Honestly, if the OP had needed to take that bus then that alone should have been enough. "I'm sorry, I need to catch that bus too." Disabled people do not need people making things easy for them because they feel sorry for them (which is awful!) they need people to make it equally accessible.

I guess for me OP, the test would be if you had missed the XX bus, would you take the YY bus and manage somehow? If the person behind you missed the XX bus would there be another (more PITN) bus they could take? If you could honestly say no, I would either wait or pay for a taxi then your need is as great as hers.

I would complain about the till person.

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 15:59:45

Owe you a apology? Pull the other onehmm

Clearly you have never had the experience of managing an autistic child on a bus journey in the rain. You lack the most basic general knowledge about what autism is, in fact. And yet you consider yourself qualified not only to pronounce that the OP's need was lesser, but to ask parents of autistic children whether or not they would like their children to grow up to have a job and a family?

Your attitude is appalling.

MrsMelons Mon 26-Nov-12 16:00:14

Flatbread I am confused by your post as the lady in the wheelchair could have waiting under shelter for the next bus so I don't understand how her need is greater. It was perfectly fine for her to ask but not for her to question the OP. The OP's daughter needed to get to school on time also.

I think in many situations people are very ignorant of the needs of people in wheelchairs or generally people who may need assistance whatever the reason but in this situation it sounded as if the OP was polite and reasonable given the circumstances.

OptimisticPessimist Mon 26-Nov-12 16:02:43

Uncomfortable?! The OP has explained that rain causes her daughter pain, not to mention the effect that "being uncomfortable" would have on the rest of her day (and as a result her teacher and classmates' day). In this case, the needs of the OP's DD to get to school on time and avoid being in the rain as much as possible trumped the needs of the woman in the wheelchair not wanting to wait for the next bus.

BartimaeusNeedsMoreSleep Mon 26-Nov-12 16:02:58

OP YANBU

Asking to go first is one thing (many people do that if they're in a hurry or only buying one thing) but continuing after you said no is rude and unreasonable.

And the till person was very rude too.

JessieMcJessie Mon 26-Nov-12 16:04:31

Going back to the OP, I wonder if the wheelchair user would have been slower in getting to the door/ bus stop? So maybe the wheelchair user was using the logic that they'd both make it if she got her things through first, because OP and her daughter could rush? However all that seems to have happened is that the wheelchair user asked in the hope that Op had come by car and then was taken aback when she realised that OP had a completely valid reason for not letting her in front, and she was embarrassed and started digging herself a hole with all the talk of OP getting a different bus instead. Then OP gave an even more valid reason for not being able to get a different bus and so it continued! Hard cheese wheelchair user, but I don't blame her for asking.

Flatbread are you aware that some people with autism qualify for blue badges (my son does) because of the difficulties the condition raises with regards to getting around?

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 16:09:16

My DD also has a blue badge for mobility difficulties due to extreme behavioural issues/intellectual impairment.

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 16:10:03

OP and here daughter can walk, holding hands. Her dd might be uncomfortable in the rain, aggravated by her autism. But still, they can do it.

But this is where you show a complete lack of understanding of autism.

We are talking about a 4 year old for a start. I wouldn't suggest it was appropriate for an NT 4 year old to take a 15 minute walk to catch another bus in the pouring rain let alone one with autism.

MysticMugBug Mon 26-Nov-12 16:10:47

yeah, but your daughter has a disability

Flatbread

By your logic someone with a physical disability who could walk in discomfort for 15 mins should give way to the wheelchair user even if that 15min walk left the walker too tired and in too much pain to function properly for the rest of the day.

As others have said its not disability top trumps. Two people both with a disability needed to get through the checkouts to catch a bus, they both would be inconvenienced by missing the bus, who wins? hmm

Greensleeves Mon 26-Nov-12 16:11:23

my son is very "high-functioning" (Aspergers) and isn't anywhere near qualifying for a blue badge or being considered disabled at all

but if I disrupted the school morning routine or took him on the wrong bus there would be HELL to pay

but I expect I am just a useless parent who has shielded him from reality hmm

TroublesomeEx Mon 26-Nov-12 16:11:35

Who was sensitive to the rain.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 26-Nov-12 16:17:55

She wasn't unreasonable to ask, and you weren't unreasonable to refuse. IMO. Her reasons were good, and from what you say, if circumstances had been different, you would have let her go ahead. But you had good reason of your own.

I once asked someone who was sitting in a disabled/pregnant woman/elderly person bus seat, if they could let me sit down with my then toddler, who was asleep. If they had told me that they had some equal of greater need to be in that seat, I wouldn't have quibbled. I see this as a similar situation

McChristmasPants2012 Mon 26-Nov-12 16:18:59

As a mother if an asd child, I wouldn't even have gone to the supermarket before school as this would ruin his routine for weeks.

Most supermarkets have a cafe so the wheel chair user could of say in there with a cup of tea.

FeckOffCup Mon 26-Nov-12 16:37:16

OP and here daughter can walk, holding hands. Her dd might be uncomfortable in the rain, aggravated by her autism. But still, they can do it.

Not necessarily true, the effects of the rain could have caused OP's DD to have a meltdown, meaning OP would have been stuck in the rain with her DD unable to walk further. Just because autistic people don't always have physical disabilities with their legs doesn't mean it's always possible for them to walk places, OP has already explained how distressed her DD gets in the rain, why should she have to get a different bus and walk in the rain when it affects her DD adversely?

CecilyP Mon 26-Nov-12 16:42:34

It wasn't OP's fault that the wheelchair user had cut things too fine. And this is what she did do. If she had more shopping than OP, she would not have made it to the bus stop in time so, if OP had agreed to her request, she would have had her DD upset for no reason at all.

And saying she would be freezing waiting for the next one is just nonsense; if it is a timed service, she could easily wait in the shop.

IWipeArses Mon 26-Nov-12 16:48:00

Flatbread, off to suggest 'pulling yourself together' on Mental Health board yet?

Whoknowswhocares Mon 26-Nov-12 17:21:01

It is just as preposterous to tell the disabled wheelchair user to stop making a fuss and walk to the bus stop as it is to suggest that a child with autism should 'get over' their issues

I cannot believe that anyone can seriously have such ignorance! You cannot learn to overcome mental disability any more than you can a physical one. You can learn to cope to an extent (for the record, that means adjusting your schedule and lifestyle to lessen your discomfort, not 'get a grip and get on with it' as your posts seem to indicate), just as you can use a wheelchair to help your mobility. In neither case are you changing the basic disability, just dealing with practicalities in the best way you can

'To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world? Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?'

I absolutely agree with this. I also think that we should end sheltering wheelchair users from stairs or narrow toilet cubicles. How could they get the practice needed for listed buildings otherwise or develop coping strategies for showering in hotels.

whoknows given that autism is to do with the way the brain develops it is considered a physical disability rather than a mental disability, but that is just a technicality and doesn't change your meaning. Just thought you might be interested.

JuliaScurr Mon 26-Nov-12 17:31:39

if all buses were accessible this wouldn't have been as much of a problem
two disabled people fighting while the bus company save money they should spend on adaptations

How do you get someone with autism to cope?

One way I imagine, is to ensure their school day isn't written off by a wheelchair user bagging their place on a bus!

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 26-Nov-12 17:39:00

OP YWNBU under the circumstances.

Flatbreads comments are jaw droppingly unpleasant. I'm really shocked that someone could say those kinds of things. shock

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 26-Nov-12 17:45:42

flatbread I'm astonished at your continued posts, they are unbelievable.

Perhaps instead of worrying about having a 'passion for dinnerware' and being snide about people serving pasta to their friends on a Saturday night, you might spend some time educating yourself to avoid giving further offence?

<genuine question> smile

3bunnies Mon 26-Nov-12 17:48:55

YANBU. I would make a complaint about the checkout operator though. If you look on the reciept it will probably say 'you were served by <name> today, or if you went in then they would be able to identify from the reciept. She was being unprofessional even without your dd having a disability, but with that information too she would benefit from additional training in disability awareness.

I'd love one of my sons "to be functioning adults with a job and family one day"

I don't think it'll happen though.

Two of my kids it could go either way, but it's by no means guaranteed, and the chances are eroding further and further with all the cuts being made.

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 18:04:25

Flatbread I am astounded. So what if the lady was disabled and ad to wait for a bus, she is not going to melt is she hmm. just because she is a wheelchairv user des not make her fragile. I suggest you read up about Autism. Moose puts it perfectly. Yes the woman had every righ to ask, and the op had every right to refuse considering her circumstances. Sorry she has to put her dd needs before anybody else. The time in which te woman took explaining about bus routes, she could have found a shorter queue, as there was one

Flatbread, your comments appear to be getting worse!
I thought nothing could beat "To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?
Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?"..but, you manger to come up with "my friend's husband" - classic!

Clearly your friend's husband's mother was a superior parent. hmm

MollyMurphy Mon 26-Nov-12 18:13:47

YWNBU - she was rude to try to redirect your route home - quite cheeky of her IMO.

TwoFacedCows Mon 26-Nov-12 18:16:02

oh dear flatbread, wanna borrow my spade?? shock

MollyMurphy Mon 26-Nov-12 18:21:12

I should add that I wouldn't think OP less reasonable if her child didn't have autism.....regardless her DD would have been late for school.

QOD Mon 26-Nov-12 18:22:11

I was at an airport in a huge queue in the duty free. Lady on a disabled scooter ran over a mans foot shot herself to a closed till and shouted "can I pay now, I'm disabled" and someone rushed over and served her.

I thought it was all wrong to be honest, if she'd said "can I pay here please my planes been called" fine, but it did make my eyebrows go right up.

For what it's worth, we had a coffee after and she was in the cafe area too so certainly wasn't in a rush.

I want to help, I want life to be easier but sometimes there is a bit of entitlement, or at least there SEEMS to be some.

What's the consensus with my example? I didn't say or do anything, it was just, well, a kind of eyebrows up in surprise kinda moment.

In your situation I would not have given her my place. If i wasn't in a rush for the bus OR if there were many buses i could get and only one she could then yes I would have let her go first of course. But in the situation you describe I just dont see why she should expect to be let through especially as your daughter is autistic - and you explained this. Im sure that she could look around another shop or two then head for the bus stop for the next bus just the same as you would probably have done had she got the till before you.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 26-Nov-12 18:24:52

QOD

I wouldn't assume any kind of general sense of entitlement. I'd assume a fairly unpleasant person had found a wily way to get what she wanted by taking advantage of people's good nature (or at least their desire to not appear horrible).

RooneyMara Mon 26-Nov-12 18:30:52

I've only read the first few posts. I don't think you were unreasonable and the woman sounds very entitled - not reasonably entitled, as anyone in a wheelchair has the right to be, but unreasonably entitled.

You have a daughter with SN
You had less shopping than her and needed the same bus, which she probably wouldn't have made it to anyway as she had more than you and you only just made it.

If you had let her go first, neither of you would have got the bus but as she failed to accept your reasons for needing that bus, she was being very rude herself.

I hope you feel a bit better tonight.

QOD Mon 26-Nov-12 18:33:28

I think you've probably hit it on the head Jamie!

I wish I could have seen her shopping, if it was fags and booze I could have done a cats bum face too.

toofattorun Mon 26-Nov-12 18:40:20

YWNBU. I don't think you did anything wrong. She should have timed it better to allow for queuing at the checkout. Alternatively, she could have milled about in the supermarket for the extra 35 minutes. Lord knows, I spent 2 hours in sainsbury's this morning piss-arsing about.

FeckOffCup Mon 26-Nov-12 18:43:35

QODs post makes me imagine Madge Harvey from Benidorm in the duty free grin.

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 18:43:52

Exactly she could have waited in the supermarket cafe or on the benches until the next bus

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 18:45:35

Quod I am sure that woman is not the only one, the op found anther one today. Some seem quite entitled and take advantage

Inertia Mon 26-Nov-12 19:04:00

YANBU.

It was reasonable for the woman to ask, but equally it was reasonable for you to politely refuse. You weren't saying no out of spite, you said no because you had to get the same bus and missing it would cause huge problems for your daughter, who also has a disability. And the woman surely wouldn't need to wait in the rain for 40 minutes if the bus stop was immediately outside the shop- could she not wait indoors?

OP YANBU. I have a 2.11 year old DD with autism and I don't even leave the house without the buggy. If something upsets her she will not walk and she will suddenly lie down on the floor if distressed. I don't think the woman behind you was expecting a no. I also would complain to TESCO. You were their customer and should have had courteous service whatever the opinion of the cashier.
There is a lot of misunderstanding about asd and it makes me sad for my DD that she has to face it. I am heartened however that most mumsnetters are aware of the difficulties of ASD.

OP I do not think YWBU, at all. You had a perfectly valid reason to say no.

DS has a couple of schoolfriends who're autistic, so I have what amounts to a teeny tiny window into the condition, and it is a teeny window. I just don't know how their parents cope, they are amazing. I do my best if his friends come round for tea, but will always take their mum's advice on how to make the playdate work.

I saw one child go into meltdown over something, and it was heartbreaking, but his mum was there at the time, so I simply followed her cue in helping her DS. No way am I going to assume that I know all there is to know about ASD, I know pitifully little (but improving).

Needingsomeadvice, can I suggest you don't take any advice from Flatbread. wink

alemci Mon 26-Nov-12 19:25:35

YWNBU - you were polite and she shouldn't have continued questioning you. Even if your dd wasn't autistic you still had to be somewhere. Perhaps the supermarket could have opened up another til for her. She was rude to keep on questioning you.

I suppose you could have asked the bus to wait but they may not have done so.

Fozzleyplum Mon 26-Nov-12 19:45:59

Let's look logically at your claims to go first:

You - autistic child so issues with walking, child late for school if miss 'bus, not left enough time to accommodate slow checkout queue, but you happened to be before her in the queue;

Her - disabled, needed to catch 'bus or wait up to 40 mins, not left enough time to accomodate slow checkout queue, but did not say had somewhere she had to be (and would not have been forced to wait outside - could have gone round shops or presumably even lurked in supermarket). She was behind you in the queue.

Judge Fozzley pronounces: She was ok to ask if she could go first, but should have stopped banging on once you explained that your daughter would be late for school. YANBU [gavel].

JamieandtheMagicTorch Mon 26-Nov-12 19:59:40

toofattorun

I love the phrase pissarsing around. Had forgotten it exosited and will start tot use it again

McChristmasPants2012 Mon 26-Nov-12 20:14:56

Living with autism is hard, it is tested mine and DH relationship, I have lost friends and I have had people stare and tut under there breaths in social setting, I have had people tell me to sort my kid out.

I have had to become strong and learn how to stand up for myself.

To have a poster say they will have to learn I ask you why? My son has autism I think people's attitude regarding hidden disabilities should change and not him

GhostShip Mon 26-Nov-12 20:26:59

What a shitty situation to be put in.

You were defo not unreasonable, but I can see why she asked. She should not have pressed on though, thats just rude.

GhostShip Mon 26-Nov-12 20:27:39

And I actually didnt know much about autism before this thread, thankyou to everyone who has shared.

mamalovesmojitos Mon 26-Nov-12 20:30:58

YANBU

I would simplify this to:

If anyone was in a rush at the supermarket, and asked to go in front of me, I would let them, if I wasn't in a rush myself.

If I needed to catch a bus like OP did, then I wouldn't let anyone in front of me.

threesocksmorgan Mon 26-Nov-12 21:12:11

can I just politely ask if we could not make this ...
wheelchair user V autistic person.
that is not the case.
I do hate it when threads become like this as it seems to divide.

DeliciousIrony Mon 26-Nov-12 21:14:32

YWNBU.

She asked, fair enough. You said no, also fair enough.
You shouldn't have been made to feel you'd done something wrong.

IneedAsockamnesty Mon 26-Nov-12 21:34:46

Even if you had of been alone ywnbu

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 21:57:35

I should add that I wouldn't think OP less reasonable if her child didn't have autism.....regardless her DD would have been late for school

Even if you had of been alone ywnbu

There you have it. Self-justifying selfishness.

I hope none of you were the mums I have helped up the elevators with their buggies, missing my train to work (yeah, you know the station and should have planned better)

I hope you were not the young women with heavy luggage that I helped get carry on the train, even though it was a platform on the opposite end of mine. (you should have travelled light)

Nor the endless people I give my seat to, old, pregnant or disabled. Or the women with young children I let jump the queue so they can get out of the store faster.

All of us are inconvenienced one way or the other when we help others. But we still do it. Because we recognise that others have needs that might be greater than ours.

And the ironic thing is, if OP had let the woman go first, by the time the driver had lowered the platform, let the lady get her wheel chair on, secured it, OP could well have caught the bus.

And Alibaba, thanks for reminding me about the food threads. I made some beef bourguignon for a dinner party tonight and it was divine.

threesocksmorgan Mon 26-Nov-12 22:01:03

WTF has that got to do with anything??

missymoomoomee Mon 26-Nov-12 22:02:07

Wow flatbread you are an inspiration to us all, not only have you cured autism in one sentence, you are such a kind and giving and generous soul. I bow down to your greatness and hope, one day, to be even a tenth of the human being you clearly are..... hmm

Alisvolatpropiis Mon 26-Nov-12 22:03:08

Flatbread have a biscuit

MrsMelons Mon 26-Nov-12 22:04:25

Flatbread how is it selfish to ensure her DD is not late for school? There did not appear to be any reason the other lady needed to go in front of the OP.

I give up my seat and help others whenever I can so I have no feelings of guilt in agreeing with the OP in this situation.

I feel irritated when NO ONE would help me at the station with a 2 year old and a baby in a buggy (I wasn't in a rush at all but wrongly assumed all stations would have lifts) and when I was heavily pregnant on a full train and I was stared at as if I was an alien! Those things do not stop me helping others but it is not humanly possible to do it in every situation as many of the people not helping me may have been on their way to school/work etc so fair enough - would you have made yourself late for an important interview to help someone?

You sound very self-righteous!

GhostShip Mon 26-Nov-12 22:09:55

Oh yes everyone should inconvenience themselves and their families because we are all saints and obviously that person must need it more than we do...

I see no reason why the OP should have had to put her and her DD through what she has described. She's described to you how her DD reacts to the rain, how her autism makes it difficult for her.
Tis a shame the woman in the wheelchair missed her bus, but a bit of time management on her part probably wouldn't have gone amiss either. If I'd have been in front, I'd have said yeah sure, not because of her being in a wheelchair par say, but because her need would have been greater than mind because she has limited options. but I haven't got a 4 year old daughter like the OP has. The OP needed it just as that woman did.

It's not a competition.

Flatbread I would bet that many people on this thread do help others, as I do, eg buggies, etc in the same way you mention.

But in this case we are discussing a specific incident, not a general attitude towards other people.

I still believe the OP WNBU. In this case we are looking at someone having to catch a later bus, versus the OP having repercussions with her DD relating to missing that bus that could go way beyond a 40 minute period.

From the descriptions given, it looks like neither would have been able to catch the bus if the wheelchair user had gone first, the OP saying she only just managed to catch it.

At another time/in another circumstance it could be right to have allowed the other lady to go first.

Each case on it's merits. And one case does not automatically mean that one person is selfish.

McChristmasPants2012 Mon 26-Nov-12 22:12:27

Flatbread, that are your decsion.

I can't be late for work as my wages will be docked and atm i cant afford it, however i will give up my seat on the bus even after a gruelling 8 hour shift, if i have a trolley full of shopping and i person behind me has a few items i will let them go first.

however my children come first and always will

GhostShip Mon 26-Nov-12 22:14:31

Oh and flatbread, the other day I spotted a stranger struggling to get her elderly mother (who was in a wheelchair) up the step to get in her house. I helped her. It inconvenienced me because I ended up putting my bags on the floor, which resulted in my lucozade rolling down the path and into some bushes. But so what? I was perfectly able to help and it didn't hurt me.

In this case the OP's daughter would have been caused great distress by her missing the bus. That would have hurt her.

Alibabaandthe40nappies Mon 26-Nov-12 22:15:36

<slow handclap>

We all help people all the time I expect, you are not unique in that. Or in your ability to cook although we'd never know it

You on the other hand are being dismissive and ignorant of a recognised disability, and instead of holding up your hands and accepting that you are ignorant you are further digging yourself into a hole by insisting that your ignorant and offensive views are justified.

McChristmasPants2012 Mon 26-Nov-12 22:17:51

Also attendance at DS is a big thing. If a child is even late they do not get to pick a treat out of the chest as it's not 100% attendance.

RyleDup Mon 26-Nov-12 22:19:03

Seems to me like you need to educate yourself flatbread. And acknowledge when you are in the wrong. It makes you look lots more grown up.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 26-Nov-12 22:37:24

My DS is on the spectrum, has remained in MS, is at college and will have a job. He may even go to uni in his late twenties or older. He has strategies now to deal with a lot of the things he found tricky or intolerable, we develop new strategies all the time. He even has several friends in equal relationships. We have been incredibly lucky with our throw of the dice.
It's a spectrum, he's at the HF end of it, like his dad.
I wouldn't presume to generalise or judge anyone else with a child on the spectrum, because each situation has its own difficulties and challenges, sensitivities and triggers. So I would not think that our path was possible for another to follow, merely because the children are both on the autistic spectrum.
Flatbread, the depth of your ignorance is staggering and your snap judgements unworthy of dwelling on. Unfortunately they are very common.
OP she was NBU to ask, you were NBU to decline and the judgements of you by anyone else were based on their ignorance.

bondigidum Mon 26-Nov-12 22:49:44

Yanbu.

I have no problem with saying I would have done the exact same thing as you. Reason being disabled people want equal treatment so I will give them it. I wouldn't give up my spot for an able bodied person so why a disabled? I don't go out of my way to pussy foot around disabled people because they are my equals just like I wouldn't treat a black or gay person any differently. I had two blind kids in my class at school and a heck of a lot of people in that class would patronise them, talk to them like they were babies and totally pussy foot around them. I just used to talk to them as I did anyone else and if they annoyed me i'd tell them. That is what they wanted.

We've become far too politically correct and almost scared to offend people who aren't the majority. Its ridiculous, just don't look at them as being any different and if you wouldn't have given an able bodied person your place then don't give a disabled person it. You totally did the right thing, well done.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Mon 26-Nov-12 22:59:26

Flatbread - trying to change your angle now? Grow up and apologise for either your outstanding ignorance or plain rudeness.

Must have been a brilliant dinner party if all the guests had gone by 10pm - or were you being rude and ignoring them while MNing?

RyleDup Mon 26-Nov-12 22:59:44

its ridiculous, just don't look at them as being any different and if you wouldn't have given an able bodied person your place then don't give a disabled person it. You totally did the right thing, well done.

Nice bondig. Its reassuring to know that most people, judging by this thread, don't take the same attitude as you. Theres no harm in helping people out either, if you are in a position to do so.

gimmecakeandcandy Mon 26-Nov-12 23:01:44

She could have got their earlier or asked management to open a other till? I think we should help where we can when it comes to disabled people but your situation is not clear cut so yanbu

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 23:06:43

Out of 275 posts flatbread is te only one to disagree on flimsy grounds. That tells you something flatbread.

You're not a teacher bondig!?

pigletmania Mon 26-Nov-12 23:10:16

Yes i help out were I can, but I will put dd needs first before others like op has done. If I had been on my own without my ASD dd than I would let the lady go first

threesocksmorgan Mon 26-Nov-12 23:10:54

bondigidum wow another gem

PropertyNightmare Mon 26-Nov-12 23:11:53

In the circs, ywnbu.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 23:23:33

Chipping, not changing anything I was saying.

Only OP, it appears, is torn about her actions. Others seem very comfortable putting themselves and their children first, autistic or not.

There is a range in autism, and from what OP describes, the main issue was holding her dd's hand for safety. And later that perhaps dd would not be pleased with getting wet.

People have gone hysterical and said her dd would suffer great pain (WTF?) and that the woman on the wheelchair was irresponsible and entitled.

I am completely bemused at this thread. I have not said anything derogatory to OP or her child. What should I apologise for?

(And the dinner was a great success, four hours of company is just about right. I am in a different time zone than you, and as much as I enjoy fellow mner's company, I would not post in the middle of hosting guests)

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 23:30:24

Flatbread. You can suffer severe pain through faulty sensory processing in autism. So your " WTF" is thoroughly pig ignorant

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 26-Nov-12 23:30:36

'and said her dd would suffer great pain (WTF?)'

Yes, I know you don't get that but for some it is true. My DS can't cope with small things like labels in clothing, but doesn't feel deep slashes requiring stitches or major crush injuries. Not wired like an NT. Yes, it is difficult for some people to understand.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 26-Nov-12 23:31:36

Oh, I think the pig-ignorance is blatant Fanjo.
Deliberate?

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 23:31:53

Child in DD's class screams and beats her head off the floor in pain due to normal traffic noise.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 23:32:38

Nebulous, am starting to wonder!

There is a range in autism, and from what OP describes, the main issue was holding her dd's hand for safety. And later that perhaps dd would not be pleased with getting wet.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha - you're determined not to get it aren't you. the Black Balloon is fictional but if you go through to 8:25 ish you get a realistic picture of an autistic meltdown, which unfortunately can be triggered by things like having to catch buses at the 'wrong' stop or getting wet etc.

(Great film btw)

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 26-Nov-12 23:35:52

Had a child in my class who needed to wear headphones to cope with normal classroom levels of noise.

RyleDup Mon 26-Nov-12 23:35:55

Flatbread. You can suffer severe pain through faulty sensory processing in autism. So your " WTF" is thoroughly pig ignorant

Summed up rather nicely there.

manicinsomniac Mon 26-Nov-12 23:38:18

Tricky situation. And so unbelievably unlucky!

I don't know about the area you are in but near me:
The chances of there being a queue at all at 8am are low
The chances of there being two consecutive customers who have both travelled by bus (let alone the same bus) are very low
The chances of there being two disabled customers in a row are very low

So the chances of all three happening are infinitesimally low sad I can imagine how torn and guilty you must have felt and I suspect I might have let the woman go first due to that guilt but YWNBU, an autistic meltdown is no joke.

BegoniaBampot Mon 26-Nov-12 23:39:39

Flatbread - you've had your fun and probably been giggling your socks off but it's really in poor taste to wind up mums who are dealing with kids who have disabilities like those described here. You're being deliberately provocative for some reason as I doubt you are really as thick as you are coming across.

ouryve Mon 26-Nov-12 23:40:58

In your case, YANBU - your daughter had to be somewhere at a certain time an is disabled, too. If my elsdest ended up at risk of being late somewhere, he'd not even go because it's TOOOOO LAAAAAATE. If i got him there, his entired day would be shit because his routine had been disrupted.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Mon 26-Nov-12 23:46:57

I have mobility problems (use a walking frame) and find queueing or possibly waiting having missed a bus incredibly painful. If someone were to offer to let me go ahead I would be incredibly grateful and relieved but never in a million years would I ask let alone make a fuss if refused. I think the woman was being incredibly cheeky and playing on her disability. OP I don't think you were being unreasonable at all.

BegoniaBampot Mon 26-Nov-12 23:47:29

"Flatbread, it's really not that simple. I can't believe i'm having to do this for the second time today, but dd doesn't just dislike rain - she hates it. She says it's sore when it lands on her skin. She says the noise of it makes her ears sore too. She thinks that if she gets wet, she can't breathe. And god help us if she gets even a drop of it on her glasses.

No matter how much i force rain onto her, she'll never just get used to it.

We've established some coping strategies so that she no longer freaks out as much. She can just about tolerate light rain now, but when it's as heavy as it was today, it causes her great upset and - according to her - pain."

Flatbread - you know fine well how the OP described her daughters feelings and reactions no matter how much you continue to conveniently overlook this.

Flatbread I think you are either completely clueless about ASD and what it means, or you are being deliberately inflammatory.

OP, you have most people saying YANBU. I would definitely be getting on that bus rather than your child be late or school, ASD or not. Of course, if I were just heading back from town during the day and could manage waitig around another 40 minutes, I might agree. But if I had DD with me (who has ASD) and especially if the rain/walking is an issue, I would put her first, especially as it would mean such disruption for her already difficult life.

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 26-Nov-12 23:54:29

'You're being deliberately provocative for some reason as I doubt you are really as thick as you are coming across.'

Actually, I've encountered a lot of people with attitudes and beliefs like this, and I'd put money on any parent of a child on the spectrum being able to say the same thing.

Flatbread Mon 26-Nov-12 23:56:08

Why are you all projecting? Your children might suffer great pain by getting a bit wet. But OP hasn't said that about her child. If it was such a major issue, she would have put it in her OP, but she only mentioned the safety aspect of holding her dd's hand.

We can agree to disagree, but why are all of you getting so offended? If OP came back and said she was upset by my posts, I would be the first to apologise (and OP if you have and I missed it, my sincere apologies to you).

But to the rest, don't see why you are offended. We are all third parties to this. I can just as much get offended by you not being sympathetic enough to the lady in the wheelchair. Just like you imagine yourself and your children in the OPs situation, I can imagine my mum asking for help (and it would take a lot of courage to do that) and feeling absolutely mortified afterwards.

FanjoForTheMammaries Mon 26-Nov-12 23:58:17

My child doesn't suffer pain from rain, so not projecting. Sorry to disappoint

TheNebulousBoojum Mon 26-Nov-12 23:59:52

I'm not offended. I think you are blinkered and dismissive of others' experiences.
But as I said, it's a very common attitude.

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 27-Nov-12 00:01:17

Mine loves the rain, hates the sun. Better once he learned that despite his desires, he really needed to not ' take his clothes off and go dancing in the rain'

BegoniaBampot Tue 27-Nov-12 00:02:29

Ah, so you are being provocative and have just ignored the post where I included where the OP described her daughters reaction to rain - here it is again in case you blinked.

"Flatbread, it's really not that simple. I can't believe i'm having to do this for the second time today, but dd doesn't just dislike rain - she hates it. She says it's sore when it lands on her skin. She says the noise of it makes her ears sore too. She thinks that if she gets wet, she can't breathe. And god help us if she gets even a drop of it on her glasses.

No matter how much i force rain onto her, she'll never just get used to it.

We've established some coping strategies so that she no longer freaks out as much. She can just about tolerate light rain now, but when it's as heavy as it was today, it causes her great upset and - according to her - pain."

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 27-Nov-12 00:04:34

Flatbread lots of people with autism have almost reversed pain senses

I.e. oddly calm having experienced sever injury but rolling round screaming that it hurts when just unexpectedly touched/ looked at or the wind. As well as other things

Inthepotty Tue 27-Nov-12 00:07:04

OP, YANBU. Stop worrying! smile

I usually wouldn't let myself be wound up by such comments as Flatbreads but I'm struggling to let these go...

Flat, my DS2 is Autistic. One of the things that triggers a meltdown is wind. The feel of it in his hair, his ears. He cannot bear to be out in blowy conditions, it feels to him like it is chasing him. No amount of exposure will 'cure' him, and frankly I am amazed that a seemingly educated, clearly articulate woman such as yourself could think that. Your ignorance is astounding. It's not just 'uncomfortable' for the OPs DD, it causes her pain.

That you seem to think Autism can be overcome by 'getting used to the real world' is breathtakingly dim. My DS will likely never live independently, never go to uni and meet new people, get married, hold down any sort of job, have children. And those are the biggies. He'll never fly a kite, ride a bike, or blow out the candles of a birthday cake. It makes me cry most days, so forgive me if I don't spend all my energy trying to get him used to the wind, (which should be a fucking doddle in the world according to Flatbread) because each bloody day is tough enough as it is.

Go away, read up on Autism, which affects so many, and then come back and fucking well apologise for not realising that its not as simple as 'getting on with it'.

Who's getting offended? Just trying to educate the ignorant. <remembers why I rarely bother> <walks away muttering you can lead a horse to water etc>

Flatbread Tue 27-Nov-12 00:13:47

Begonia,

Actually I owe a huge apology to OP. I somehow missed all of that, I read it but didn't register (I was probably cooking at the same time) . blush

I just went back and re-read based on your post. Yes, it sounds like it was a major deal to OP's daughter and she probably did the right thing.

And apologies to all of you who thought I was dismissing your dc's similar experiences, I thought you were projecting. But you weren't, you were sympathising with what OP explained in that later post.

Although i still think she should have tried to hold the bus for the lady. And I strongly disagree that the wheelchair lady was acting entitled (unless I missed some later posts that described things further)

RyleDup Tue 27-Nov-12 00:49:34

Oh god flatbread, you're the gift that just keeps on giving aren't you....

pigletmania Tue 27-Nov-12 01:07:03

My dd ates the wind. Itook her out in it and t triggered a big meltdown

Pixel Tue 27-Nov-12 01:15:09

*To those of you with autistic children, if you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?

Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?*

Just catching up with this thread as I've been allowed out. We have always tried to expose ds to normal life situations, we haven't shut him away, but he is 12 years old and only just becoming able to cope with these 'normal' situations in a limited way. When he was 4 it was just impossible. He will never be able to go out by himself as he would be run over in about 5 mins, even though we've spent the last 12 years trying to teach him to look out for moving vehicles/stay on the pavement etc. Helping them to cope isn't just a case of 'just do it they will get used to it', it's a long hard slog for us and them and sometimes they are only able to overcome fears when they gain a little maturity. You can't force it.

pigletmania Tue 27-Nov-12 01:15:14

When your outwits an autistic child the main thing is getting them home as quickly and smoothly and safely as possible. So in op situation I wuld have not thought to give my place to anyone, nor would I be expected to. my dd needs and holding whilst out, but she can turn volatile very quickly and could put herself mostly in danger, so the long convoluted route from the bus stop would not be be safe.

Flatbread Tue 27-Nov-12 01:21:44

Ryle, glad I keep you entertained smile

So, OP, my revised perspective

In your specific case -yanbu

People who would prioritise their non-autistic children getting to school on time above the needs of the wheelchair lady -yabu and selfish

Those who said they would ignore her request even if they were on their own - yabvvvu and a twat ( except if you have a genuine emergency)

ChippingInLovesAutumn Tue 27-Nov-12 01:44:37

Bloody hell. It only took 200 posts and a lot of upset hmm

<the others wouldn't be being U either, but I don't have the strength to make you see sense on that as well>

TwoFacedCows Tue 27-Nov-12 06:45:36

flatbread, as amusing as your dimwitted posts have been hmm i think by now no one, especially the OP cares for you opinions on if she was BU or not!

i also can not believe that you actually have the cheek to then call others 'selfish, vvvu and a twat'!! shock

I am one of those that feels the OP was not BU, and i would not give up my place in the queue except in VERY rare circumstances when i am feeling nice! but i think in this thread your posts have been 'selfish, vvvu and a twat'

TangoPurple Tue 27-Nov-12 08:09:13

Thanks again for all your replies.

I still feel a wee bit guilty about the whole scenario - and feeling a bit dubious about ever returning there in the near future - but not as much as i did yesterday morning smile

Thanks for the apology, Flatbread, and sorry if i was snipey with you. But in a way I think it's good you replied as you did.

You (hopefully) then read the replies explaining what autism actually is like.

For the record, my dd is on the high functioning end of the spectrum, so there's every possibility of her 'living in the real world' if she wishes, but there are also people on the low and middle ends of the spectrum who will require so much more support. Perhaps loads more than someone in a wheelchair who's able to get themselves to a supermarket and back by themselves. I think it's the parents of these children you should aim your apology at.

BegoniaBampot Tue 27-Nov-12 08:12:41

Tango - are you going to complain aboutnthentill OP? You wouldn't have been feeling so bad if she had just got on with her job.

TangoPurple Tue 27-Nov-12 08:15:16

Not really sure if I have the balls to complain, Begonia! blush I'm actually a bit of a wuss.

But you're right, it's mainly her reaction to me which is putting me off going back to that particular shop. I think I might email them with the receipt details. If i don't hear back, I'll try phoning.

Flatbread Tue 27-Nov-12 08:52:09

Tango,

I did get a sense from your posts that your daughter was in the higher functioning end. And somehow I got the impression that the lady in the wheelchair was older and not in general good health.

At the end of the day, all these decisions are about judgement calls on whose needs are greater. It is not about a hypothetical argument on which disability trumps, but about the specific situation on whose disability had a greater need at that particular time and instance. E.g., someone with mild MS giving up their seat for a person on crutches.

I don't see why we have to imagine the scenario of a very disabled autistic child and an entitled, in-the-wheelchair but very capable woman. This doesn't seem to be the specific scenario here. If it was, the OP would have been worded differently.

I didn't quite read your post regarding your dd's reaction to the rain. For some reason I thought you said she frets if her skirt gets wet (not every autistic child finds the rain difficult). Which is of course very different from how you described it in a later post and i apologised for that and to parents who described their child as having similar reaction. They had read your posts more carefully than I had, and thought I was trivialising the discomfort in the rain.

Twoface, yup, if you were alone and wouldn't give your place to the woman in the wheelchair and walk the extra 10 minutes on yy bus, then that would be very very selfish and twatish. I do hope you have never asked anyone for help, because it is people like you who put others off from helping strangers.

FeckOffCup Tue 27-Nov-12 09:28:30

I did get a sense from your posts that your daughter was in the higher functioning end. And somehow I got the impression that the lady in the wheelchair was older and not in general good health.

Ironic really that you have accused other posters of projecting things that aren't there onto the OP then post this. Where exactly did the OP mention the age of the lady in the wheelchair? You are still trying to justify yourself even after you have admitted you were wrong to call the OP selfish for not giving up her place in the queue.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Tue 27-Nov-12 09:42:23

Flatbread I did get a sense from your posts that your daughter was in the higher functioning end I seriously doubt you had ever even heard the term until halfway through this thread.

At the end of the day, all these decisions are about judgement calls on whose needs are greater. It is not about a hypothetical argument on which disability trumps, but about the specific situation on whose disability had a greater need at that particular time and instance. E.g., someone with mild MS giving up their seat for a person on crutches. Once again, complete and utter ignorance.

not every autistic child finds the rain difficult You are not in any position to state anything about autistic children at all.

and thought I was trivialising the discomfort in the rain You were.

Twoface, yup, if you were alone and wouldn't give your place to the woman in the wheelchair and walk the extra 10 minutes on yy bus, then that would be very very selfish and twatish. I do hope you have never asked anyone for help, because it is people like you who put others off from helping strangers For the last time, the woman in the wheelchair made herself late for the bus. All she had to do was wait for the next one - as anyone else does who is late for their bus. People have many and varied reasons for not letting her go first and none of them have to be approved by you, of all people.

toofattorun Tue 27-Nov-12 09:44:41

The checkout assistant should not be giving her tuppence worth on such a topic. You were not doing anything wrong! You didn't jump in front of the woman, neither did you tell her to fuck off. If you think the supermarket employee was taking sides, then you should definitely complain. If you think that's going to make you feel even worse, then don't. (Personally, I would.)

Either way, that shouldn't stop you from going back in there. You have every right to do your shopping wherever you damn-well please. Life is too short.

Flatbread Tue 27-Nov-12 09:47:03

OP mentioned in her original post that the tiller muttered about 'lack of respect'. Usually a term used with regard to older people.

And she only mentioned the need to hold her dd's hand because of her autism, not any other issue.

At that point, I think wheelchair lady's needs are greater, as OP might be able to juggle bags and hold dd.

But add in that it was raining and OP's daughter finds it deeply uncomfortable, then dd's needs trump.

I am reading between the lines, but not really projecting anything, as I have no beef one way or the other. It is not as simple as 'my child has a disability so it trumps every one else's needs in all situations'. Social interactions are often grey and it is a judgement call.

FanjoForTheMammaries Tue 27-Nov-12 09:50:00

What is a "wheelchair lady" anyway, some superhuman hybrid of a wheelchair and a person?

TroublesomeEx Tue 27-Nov-12 10:04:42

I suspect that the OP only mentioned the handholding in reference to her daughter's autism because anyone who understands anything about autism understands what some of the potential difficulties might be and so, even though they don't know the specifics, can make an adequate prediction regarding the difficulties this might pose.

I don't have a child with autism so I don't have a personal point to make either. And I don't think anyone was saying that having a child with a disability trumps anyone else's needs, but in this case it was fairly cut and dried to be honest.

Like everyone else, I don't think the lady was in the wrong to ask. But i don't think the OP was wrong to say no. I do think the lady was rude to pursue it and I definitely think the till operator was wrong for getting involved on any level.

megandraper Tue 27-Nov-12 10:06:41

Tango, I have rethought my position, and decided that YANBU, because of your daughter's issues - meaning you also were dealing with a disability that meant you needed to catch the same bus. It was an awkward situation though, and I don't think the other woman was wrong to ask.

As someone else said, I think if you were alone, you should have let the lady go first (and I expect you would have).

To all the people saying the person with the wheelchair should not have 'made herself late' - you have no knowledge why she was pressed for time. All sorts of things could have happened. Just because someone is disabled doesn't mean they can be superhuman in organisational skills (and luck) and miraculously avoid every issue that makes everyone else in the world late for something occasionally.

And after all, OP was also running late/close to the edge in getting the bus. If you're criticising the woman with the wheelchair for that, you should also criticise OP. Although I don't think either should be criticised.

TroublesomeEx Tue 27-Nov-12 10:22:39

To all the people saying the person with the wheelchair should not have 'made herself late' - you have no knowledge why she was pressed for time. All sorts of things could have happened. Just because someone is disabled doesn't mean they can be superhuman in organisational skills (and luck) and miraculously avoid every issue that makes everyone else in the world late for something occasionally.

That's true. I think that the point people are making is that, just like everyone else, sometimes shit happens and you have to suck it up - just like everyone else in the world. And it's not always going to be possible for someone else to 'give way' to you. And that if you encounter someone who can't, you shouldn't be rude to them.

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 10:29:16

fanjo yet again you are right.

Greensleeves Tue 27-Nov-12 12:55:51

Given that both parties had good reason for wanting to avoid missing that bus...

the point Flatbread makes about putting oneself second and helping others could surely apply to both parties?

Or is a wheelchair user so far outside "normal" society that we cannot conceive of her making that decision - to risk missing a bus so that a child wouldn't be late for school?

I am not saying that she SHOULD make that choice, only that we shouldn't mentally exclude the possibility. It could be seen as prejudiced or infantilising to assume that because she is in a wheelchair she must never make the choice to put somebody else's needs first.

A dubious point clumsily made, but does it make sense to anyone?

MrsMelons Tue 27-Nov-12 12:58:37

You are right Gleensleeves, I think it is very easy for people to jump at anyone who does not put a disabled person first in any situation but if people give it a bit more thought it is not always the right thing!

Greensleeves Tue 27-Nov-12 13:02:50

I am not echoing bondig's odious crap about "treating them as equals" by the way. Only worrying that always assuming that a disabled person can't make the full range of adult choices is robbing them of part of their humanity

and putting it really badly

IneedAsockamnesty Tue 27-Nov-12 13:20:01

Flatbread just give it up before you dig such a deep hole you've got a cave.

Have just a little think about just why anybody with autism may require there hand holding sometimes ( Ime most times) its not just a case of a nice sweet picture type scene of a parent and child walking down the street holding hands.

No I get what you mean. If you took a snapshot of ds1 next to a wheelchair user then you would automatically assume that the wheelchair user needed more help to go about their daily business. In fact, depending on the mobility issues that may well not be true. For example a wheelchair user in a toddler group I used to go to needed a different door opened so she could access the building. That was it. She got into her car herself, put her baby in her car and drove herself, was completely independent - and needed no help other than to ensure there were access routes suitable for wheels rather than legs.

Ds1 however is physically able, he can walk, skip, jump, surf grin but he needs help - as I put in the DLA from - 24 hours a day 7 days a week. His bother who is half his age helps him, he cannot walk down the street alone and there is no way he would ever be capable of caring for a child. He needs a lot of hands on care and consideration given to those needs makes life run smoother for him/us. It wouldn't be patronising to offer him help - he needs it (not that he'd ever be alone - he never is and he never will be). But many do assume because he looks 'normal' he should be able to do whatever it is everyone else does while they patronise someone because they're sat in a chair.

I don't hold hands with ds1 anyway - of we're near traffic I grip his wrist - harder for him to break free. Most of his (teen) friends use harnesses - like large versions of baby reins.

TroublesomeEx Tue 27-Nov-12 13:30:32

Exactly, JimJams.

DameEnidsOrange Tue 27-Nov-12 14:49:25

Flatbread - DS looks like a normal teen, shuffles along, plugged into earphones, grunting at anyone who speaks to him, trousers hanging down showing his pants. If he finds a tolerant, supportive person to share his life and parent him then he may be lucky and hang onto a job and have some semblance of normal adult life.

But he is scared of the most trivial of things, and if he got caught out in wind and rain and his routine was changed and he was anxious about being late for school, then he would have the most almighty meltdown.

He is 14, nearly 6foot and weighs 10 stone.

He would lie on the floor thrashing around, pulling his hair out and lashing out at the nearest person - usually me.

So it may appear selfish that I wouldn't let others in front of me, but as I can barely restrain him when he runs then I'm not going to risk it.

Until you live with autism you have no idea what it is like.

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 15:51:07

but some wheelchair users do need extra help and allowances made for them. It isn't clear cut.
just to make myself clear. I don't like this trumping, there seems to be a constant now that wheelchair= able
dd is in a wheelchair as she can't walk, she can't talk or do much for herself.

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 15:51:44

oh and if I let people in front of me (on a bad day) she would scream.

No I know, that's why I said in some cases. The wheelchair users at ds1's SLD/PMLD school need more care & support than him as they have physical issues in addition to secere learning disabilities - a real double whammy. I was responding to flat whatsits assumptions which seem to be very much based on how something looks.

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 16:46:54

thats my point really...I know you get it jimjams, but there does seem to be a them and us thing on mn.
and don't get me started on those things on fb, surely people can make the point about no visible disabilities, without going about wheelchair users.

MrsDeVere Tue 27-Nov-12 17:02:39

Someone made that comment at my local ASD youth club a few sessions ago.
I have not stayed to chat since.
DS likes it. It is my 3 hours of respite a month but I can't stay and listen to 'its alright if your kid is in a wheelchair because you get everything don't you'

Why do people assume visible disability = well provided for?

Do people not understand that a lot of children have to wait until a kind benefactor will fund a decent wheelchair? Then they have to go and have it presented to them and be (literally) wheeled out on occasion to give thanks for their shiny chair

Off on a tangent I know but this stuff pisses me off.

Everyone has a story to tell.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 27-Nov-12 17:07:57

Greensleeves

I see what you are saying

JamieandtheMagicTorch Tue 27-Nov-12 17:09:23

But it is really counter=productive to set up a false dichotomy

People do it with severe autism as well threesocks 'it's alright if your child is severely autistic you get everything if your child can talk it's much harder'

Do wish people would recognise people have different needs. Yes ds1 gets more support from the council than a child who is more independent because he needs more support. It doesn't mean his needs are fully met.

See for example how ds1's life changing voice came about because of the generosity of a stranger. SS weren't sure that he was 'worthy' of funding ( their choice of word)

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 18:21:10

"Do wish people would recognise people have different needs."

so true. I have been told in the past by a mum that I was lucky as dd's sn is visible... I got what she meant, but it is draining to have people keep on assuming that wheelchair = lucky

Oh I know - I have been told I'm lucky because ds1 can't speak. Which is a bonkers thing to say however you look at it.

Greensleeves Tue 27-Nov-12 18:28:33

I hope my post didn't imply that someone in a wheelchair automatically has no other needs - that wasn't my intention. It was more a general point about not assuming that what you think you see is the full story. If you make assumptions about other people from appearances you are likely to be wrong most of the time, ime.

That is how I read your post greeny....

As you have just explained I mean

TheNebulousBoojum Tue 27-Nov-12 18:38:55

'ts not just a case of a nice sweet picture type scene of a parent and child walking down the street holding hands.'

You are so right pixie, sometimes it's more like being handcuffed to Taz.
www.tazworld.com/taz/t33.jpg

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 27-Nov-12 19:29:40

I got to this thread a bit late, but wanted to add my piece. flatbread to give you an example of the differences between children on the spectrum; both DS and DSD have autism and are both 6yrs old.

DS Is high functioning and can be in a mainstream classroom with support, he can talk just as well as a NT child, well just a little behind a NT child and has needed SALT to get to this stage. He has a variety of sensory issues, some that make him uncomfortable and others that cause him pain. He has some learning difficukties but there's a good chance he'll be able to live alone and hopefully hold down a job.

Dsd can't walk and is in a wheelchair, she will never be able to walk or talk. She has no control over any motor functions, she won't ever be able to wash herself or go to the toilet without help. She has no use of her hands, all her food has to be blended and spoon fed but eventually there's a strong chance she'll lose the ability to swallow and will need tube fed. She also has a short lode expectancy and will never be able to live on her own or lead any kind of 'normal' life.

Both children the same age on the same spectrum but are so different.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 27-Nov-12 19:48:57

*life

TandB Tue 27-Nov-12 20:04:29

Flatbread, why are you clinging to the assumption that the lady in the wheelchair had the "greater need"?

Unless I have missed it, the lady never gave any indication that there was a particular reason she needed to be on that bus, other than simply not wanting to miss it.

The OP, on the other hand, gave a clear reason as to why she needed to be on the bus. Her daughter's autism was a further factor - the starting point was that she needed to catch that bus or be late to take her daughter to school.

If the lady had said that she was going to be late for an appointment she had waited 2 years for, or that she was going to miss the funeral of a close relative, then the OP may well have made a different assessment of their relative needs.

But on the face of it, the lady simply wanted to catch a bus rather than wait for the next one.

I spent a lot of time in a wheelchair as a child and I am well aware of what a bloody pain in the neck an awful lot of everyday stuff is for wheelchair users. I will always offer help if it seems to be needed. I will always give up my space on a bus to a wheelchair user. I will always move seats or tables if a wheelchair user can access my place more easily. I will always intervene if I see a wheelchair user being discriminated against in any way.

And I do wheelchair users the courtesy of assuming that they are perfectly capable of making their needs known if they are not obvious.

Being in a wheelchair does not automatically mean that a person's every request or demand is reasonable. It certainly means that it is a good idea to give the request a fair bit of extra thought, because there are many everyday problems facing wheelchair users that may not be immediately apparent and, all things being equal, acceding to a request if at all possible is probably the right thing to do, simply because it may make someone's life a little easier. But if all things are not equal then it is perfectly acceptable to say "no, sorry" and to reconsider if the person gives a pressing reason why they need their request to be granted, or even if they indicate that there is such a pressing reason without detailing it.

This lady didn't do anything of the sort. She made the request and then tried to browbeat the OP into giving in to it, even when it was made clear to her that there was a more than usually good reason for the refusal.

A child with autism is a child with a recognised and valid disability. There is absolutely no way for the OP, or anyone else, to know whether a complete stranger in a wheelchair has hidden needs which may make waiting for a bus impossible. Equally, there is no way for a complete stranger in a wheelchair, or any other stranger, to know the level of difficulty that children such as the OP's daughter might face if their routine is changed. That is why people can only do the best they can on the basis of the information available to them.

That is exactly what the OP did and I can't see that she should have done anything else without more information to go on.

Pixel Tue 27-Nov-12 20:26:41

Oh I know - I have been told I'm lucky because ds1 can't speak.

Me too. A bunch of teenagers were swearing on the bus and the driver nodded towards ds (in SN buggy) and said that he'd be the same one day. I said I doubted it as he may never speak secretly thinking he'd be better brought up than that anyway and her reply was "think yourself lucky". Yeah right.

ProcrastinatingPanda Tue 27-Nov-12 20:57:17

"think yourself lucky"

shock

Flatbread Tue 27-Nov-12 21:20:48

Kungfu, for me it is not a question of a hidden vs a visible disability. If OP's daughter was blind or deaf, I would have offered the same perspective.

The issue here is the ability to get on to a bus. Lady in the wheelchair could only take this bus, otherwise she would have to wait an hour (and if it was really bad weather, the next bus could have been delayed or cancelled)

OP had more bus options, albeit not as convenient. If OP's daughter was blind or deaf, she could still walk on to Y bus, which is not wheelchair-friendly and get home. But there is no way lady in the wheelchair could get onto Y bus.

If the situation had been a doctor's waiting room, and the situations reversed. I.e., OP's autistic daughter was very uncomfortable and OP asked a lady on a wheelchair if her dd could go first. I would expect the lady in the wheelchair to oblige, and would think she was being unreasonable if she didn't.

Like you said, none of us know the full details or the needs of each person. My general sense is, people ask for help only if they really need it. I perceive the lady's persistence in finding a solution, a sign of her desperation, not entitlement. We don't know if she was in great pain or had diarrhoea or had an urgent appointment. We just don't know.

This is not to say that OP was wrong, given that her dd is very distressed in the rain. But just to say that things are not so clear-cut and it not an issue of visible vs. hidden disability, but the specific situation and options available to both.

TandB Tue 27-Nov-12 21:43:09

But the OP didn't have more bus options because her daughter has a disability.

It is no less of a disability than the highly visible use of a wheelchair. People don't always understand, and quite often don't seem to want to understand, the difficulties facing children with autism, but that does not make them any less real.

The lady in the wheelchair had another option - to miss the bus she wanted and to wait for the next one, thus being inconvenienced.

The OP had another option - to miss the bus she wanted and to wait for the next one, or subject her daughter to a situation that might lead to a meltdown, thus being inconvenienced.

Again, the OP could only go on the information available, and she was given no information that made her think that there was any pressing need for this particular bus. The other lady was given information that clearly indicated a pressing need for this particular bus.

If the lady in the wheelchair had been first, and the OP had asked to go first because her daughter was distressed, the other lady would have been quite right to say no, because she had a perfectly legitimate need to be served quickly, ie getting on the bus. As it happened, the OP was first and she had the same perfectly legitimate need.

No-one is wrong to make a request of this type. And no-one is wrong to refuse it if it means causing considerable problems for them. What is wrong is for the person making the request to entirely ignore the other person's explanation and to imply that their need is greater than that of another person without making any attempt to explain why that is.

When I was in a wheelchair, my mum might well have made such a request. What she wouldn't have done is then attempt to make someone else feel guilty about the fact that they weren't prepared to sacrifice their own child's needs in favour of mine.

TandB Tue 27-Nov-12 21:45:24

"If the situation had been a doctor's waiting room, and the situations reversed. I.e., OP's autistic daughter was very uncomfortable and OP asked a lady on a wheelchair if her dd could go first. I would expect the lady in the wheelchair to oblige, and would think she was being unreasonable if she didn't."

By this logic, anyone who asks must automatically get, no matter what the other person's needs.

If two people's needs conflict, then someone is going to lose out. Someone isn't always to blame - there will just be occasional situations which don't have an easy resolution because life, particularly where disability is concerned, doesn't always have a neat solution.

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 21:51:35

I do love it went people decide to make stuff up to fit their stance..........

DowagersHump Tue 27-Nov-12 21:51:47

Flatbread - your arguments are all over the place here. First you said that children with autism should be taught to get over themselves. Then when posters challenged you on that, you came up with a whole host of other reasons why the OP was wrong and those have been dismantled but you're still stubbornly refusing to budge from your initial position which is basically that the needs of someone in a wheelchair trump those of every other person.

It was 40 mins for the next bus, not an hour. There is no reason why lady-in-a-wheelchair couldn't have waited in the supermarket in the warm and dry for the next bus, assuming she wasn't in a hurry to get to school. And given she had quite a large amount of stuff with her, one can assume she wasn't hurrying to her job (or presumably she would have used that as another argument to try to bully the OP into getting out of the way).

Not everyone in a wheelchair is nice. Some are selfish, entitled arses, just like some able-bodied people

Flatbread Tue 27-Nov-12 22:25:45

I asked about coping strategies. People with all kinds of disabilities have coping strategies, you know, whether it is depression or deafness.

And it is ironic that you are so touchy about autism, but have no qualms dismissing the needs of the lady in a wheelchair and calling her a bully.

Charming hmm

Anyway, this not going anywhere. Kungfu, fwiw, I agree with you that it is not always clearcut and hence this debate in aibu.

threesocksmorgan Tue 27-Nov-12 23:03:16

Flatbread it is weird normally I would be agreeing with you, as I (and I have posted this) hate the way people act as if being in a wheelchair is some how "easier" it isn't.
but you seem to want to belittle autism.
2 wrongs do not make a right.
all these "people in wheelchairs are not always nice" are shit comments as well.

Bessie123 Tue 27-Nov-12 23:58:52

Surely if the woman in the wheelchair was in that much of a desperate hurry to catch the bus she could have left her shopping and got on the bus. She chose to stay and buy her shopping, missing the bus. I don't see how any of that is op's responsibility, we all make our own choices.

Devora Wed 28-Nov-12 00:40:06

Lordy, Flatbread, why don't you get a good night's sleep then come back and reread this thread with a cool head? You're reacting, but not listening.

Flatbread Wed 28-Nov-12 00:56:42

Threesocks, I am not belittling autism, honestly.

I am just going by the situation and specific issues described in the OP. Why should I automatically assume that OP's dd has frequent meltdowns? OP hasn't mentioned it, so wouldn't that be offensive stereotyping?

OP mentioned about the rain being very uncomfortable for her dd. And that is valid in her dd's case. But can't assume that another autistic person will have the same issue. If I went and solicitously held an umbrella over my friend's autistic husband, he would think I am mad.

I guess, unless indicated otherwise, is it belittling to not assume the worst or stereotype regarding a disability? And is it belittling to think about coping strategies?

IneedAsockamnesty Wed 28-Nov-12 01:11:03

Flatbread you are, seriously you are. Just because you think your not, does not make it so

Flatbread Wed 28-Nov-12 01:13:14

Lol, Devora, good advice smile Am traveling for work tomorrow and it is going to be a long week. Should catch up on sleep instead of being online.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 28-Nov-12 01:41:10

Flatbread : your genius "develop" coping strategies applies as much to people in wheelchairs as it does autistic people. What is wrong with you? Why do you continually preach to people who,from experience,know far more than you?

Spinkle Wed 28-Nov-12 06:48:20

Erm, if your DD has autism then she is disabled. Sure, she's not in a wheelchair but still has difficulties. I think you should have pointed out.

Really in this situation both parties had a compelling reason to be served first. Both would endure consequences from missing the bus. In this specific situation it boils down to first come first served, so the OP was NBU.

TroublesomeEx Wed 28-Nov-12 09:23:01

Flatbread - I have coping strategies for my daughter's deafness. She wear hearing aids and I have to hold her hand when walking down the road because she gets scared by passing traffic because it all sounds like it's on top of her. She can't judge the distance or direction of traffic based on the sound because the hearing aids amplify all sounds.

But she understands all of that. She understands why she needs to hold my hand. She understands that sometimes the traffic is further away than it sounds.

It's not comparable with the coping strategies the parents of children with autism use.

You keep asking about the coping strategies but people have already explained that keeping to a routine, avoiding triggers and the like are the coping strategies that enable their children to access the 'real world'.

And you're right, the OP didn't mention in her OP that her daughter has meltdowns but many children with autism have meltdowns, it sort of goes with the territory.

I am just going by the situation and specific issues described in the OP. Why should I automatically assume that OP's dd has frequent meltdowns? OP hasn't mentioned it, so wouldn't that be offensive stereotyping?

No more offensive than the assumptions you have made about the lady in the wheelchair.

OwlLady Wed 28-Nov-12 09:33:06

sorry but my daughters life isn't a chore. I have NEVER EVER been offered a place in front ina queue though despite the fact it's obvious she find queuing difficult. That's life I suppose

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable either, but I suppose life is limited enough when you can only catch x bus because y bus isn't accessible. That is the bus company's fault

in opther news, I had a woman have a passive aggressive go at me in tesco because she wanted to be served first because she had to do the school run. I ignored her, but I had to do the school run myself to a school further away. The woman stormed off and the woman standing behind me gave me a look and I said I couldn't offer her in front of me because she had more shopping, quite a lot more, and I had to pick my son up from school myself. She said, she had to do the same as well grin I think people just get in a dither about stuff, that's all. Don't tak it personal

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 28-Nov-12 09:33:41

Yes, I couldn't hold my DD's hand and carry shopping, she likes to run out into the road regularly.

TangoPurple Wed 28-Nov-12 09:51:30

Flatbread.

I think i might understand what you're trying to say.

Physically, dd and I could catch the YY bus. I could drag her/carry her onto it, restrain her while she lashes out at me and other passengers, and then drag her and my shopping bags ten minutes home in the rain while she screams in 'agony'.

But then again, you could argue that the woman in the wheelchair could also get the YY bus. The driver could help fold up her chair. He could then carry her onto the bus like i'd have to do with dd. He could then carry her back off and put her back in her chair.

You might scream in horror about the idea of demeaning a disabled adult like this, but why should i inflict the same level of discomfort onto my daughter just because she has working legs?

For what it's worth, i wouldn't have taken my dd on the YY bus (made that mistake before). If I'd have missed XX bus, I'd pay out for a taxi (which I can't really afford but needs must).

And the woman wasn't elderly or frail - she was perhaps late 40's/early 50's.

OwlLady Wed 28-Nov-12 09:56:57

wtf?

I think i will leave this and go and clean my chickens out. that is the most ridiculous post i have ever read on here

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 28-Nov-12 10:00:08

OwlLady - which post?

pigletmania Wed 28-Nov-12 10:00:17

The lady in the wheelchair would not be waiting out in the cold, she had options open to her: sit on a bench in the supermarket, sit in cafe and have a coffee. I really don't think tat Flatbread understands about the debilitating nature of Autism, and that op dd needs take precedence over anybody else's. Flatbread, do you have a chid with sn or disability. If not I cannot expect you to understand fully what it s like. If you did I am sure that you would put your chids needs in front of anybody else's, I am sure that you would act in the same way was the op. your are sitting typing your posts without any knowledge of sn so f course you will say those things, if you had a child with sn than you would not!

TangoPurple Wed 28-Nov-12 10:01:11

I agree. I'm talking like a complete cow. Not sure how else i could have worded it though.

Why is it okay for Flatbread to suggest my dd simply get the YY bus, but ridiculous for me to suggest the lady in the wheelchair get the YY bus?

I realise it would have been near on impossible and hugely uncomfortable for the lady in the wheelchair to do so - my point is it would also have been near on impossible and hugely uncomfortable for my dd.

Apologies for any offence caused.

pigletmania Wed 28-Nov-12 10:03:00

The op had to take her Autistic dd to school so was in a hurry, it did not seem the other lady was. It seems tat she was using her fact she is in a wheelchair to try ad get ahead. The op had just as much need for that bus as she had. The lady had options too as I've highlighted above

FanjoForTheMammaries Wed 28-Nov-12 10:03:29

oh I see, I wasn't sure whether you meant that post or Flatbread's post Owl smile

pigletmania Wed 28-Nov-12 10:05:15

The lady seemed quite entitled, rising her eyebrows to people and making faces.

pigletmania Wed 28-Nov-12 10:06:11

Just because your in a wheelchair does not make you a saint

OwlLady Wed 28-Nov-12 10:10:56

Tangopurple, that's fine, but I don't know why you are justifying yourself. Even if you had a neuro typical child it would have made no difference, what you did was perfectly acceptable. If people are running late they need to plan their time better (says the always running late owlgrin) but to suggest the lady's dignity is compromised by someone carrying her onto the bus isn't very helpful!

The trouble is public transport is not accessible enough, it's not individuals fault that their life is made even more difficult than it already is iykwim

TangoPurple Wed 28-Nov-12 10:14:43

Reading back 'that' post, i can see why Owl was shocked.

I'm in no way saying that the driver should fold up the lady's chair. It was all hypothetical. My stupid way of trying to show Flatbread that my dd's ASD makes getting the YY bus just as difficult as the lady's disability.

It would be completely unethical to make that lady get the YY bus, but Flatbread doesn't think the same when it comes to making my dd get that bus.

Why?

Flatbread, I think you're basing your knowledge of ASD on your friend's husband. One person.

Yes, my dd is high-functioning. She can walk, talk (albeit with a huge stammer and dysfluency), and can do lots of other things NT kids can. But she still struggles with aspects of everyday life.

Today for example.

It was raining - again - and dd was taking forever to get to school (it's a two minute walk). Consequently, we didn't get in the yard until after 9am. By that time, her class had already gone in. I told her to quickly join on at the back of Primary two's line. She wouldn't. She stood still, said she's waiting on her own class coming back out so she could go in the proper line.

It took myself and the head teacher to come out before she went in. She was soaked from the rain, screaming, and I now have a cut nose.

Sorry for the novel; just trying to point out that even the high functioning end of autism has its own wide spectrum.

TangoPurple Wed 28-Nov-12 10:18:53

Sorry, Owlady, cross posted.

Forgot to say in that post, it was completely hypothetical. No way would i ever expect anyone in a wheelchair to have to put themselves through that. But what I'm trying (failing) to convey to Flatbread is that my dd's own health and dignity would be compromised just as much if I hade made her go onto the YY bus.

The only difference is my dd's legs work. Doesn't mean she'd use them though. She can become a dead weight in the rain, and I really wouldn't have been able to carry/drag her for ten minutes when I also have shopping bags.

OwlLady Wed 28-Nov-12 10:25:05

That's fair enough smile

OwlLady Wed 28-Nov-12 10:25:59

I still haven't cleaned my chickens out blush

threesocksmorgan Wed 28-Nov-12 11:13:12

this thread is getting odder and odder

BegoniaBampot Wed 28-Nov-12 11:34:06

This thread needs to go to bed now.

Even if OPs daughter had no disability it doesn't mean that the lady with the wheelchair should have preference. The OP had a valid reason why she needed to get that bus.

Personally I applaud the OP for being able to do grocery shopping before school. Getting my kid to be ready in time to get to school is a feat, let alone with time to spare to get groceries. That would be a superhuman effort in our house!

elliejjtiny Wed 28-Nov-12 16:49:20

YANBU OP.

Autism is a huge spectrum. My DH has Aspergers syndrome, DS1 has some autistic symptoms but the paed thinks he is just a bit quirky. DS2 is a wheelchair user and has sensory issues. All 3 of them are high functioning, all 3 are very different.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Thu 29-Nov-12 12:12:13

BegoniaBampot Wed 28-Nov-12 11:34:06
This thread needs to go to bed now.

hmm Did I miss the memo where you crowned Thread Boss?

BegoniaBampot Thu 29-Nov-12 12:33:21

Yes you did, but I'm not really replying as this thread really needs to go to sleep now. Shhhhhhsh!

ChippingInLovesAutumn Thu 29-Nov-12 12:47:43

thanks Congratulations on your appointment, sorry I missed the memo grin

But FWIW I think the thread is fine smile

Flatbread Thu 29-Nov-12 14:04:57

Saw this in NYT and was reminded of this thread. I found it really interesting.

www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/magazine/the-autism-advantage.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0&hp

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 29-Nov-12 14:16:37

I hate articles like that..they are wonderful if you have a high functioning child but when your child can't speak, is in nappies and needs 24/7 and probably always will it is hard to think of autism as being an "advantage".

Not sure why that reminded you of this thread, unless it is linked to your minimising of autism earlier?

FanjoForTheMammaries Thu 29-Nov-12 14:18:07

Articles like that just fuel the "Rainman" stereotypes IMO.

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 29-Nov-12 14:21:48

Well imho you were both being unreasonable and the check out lady was unprofessional but by the sound of it you were probably alls stressed out, so best put it behind you.

The only one who wasnt being U is the guy who offered his place up on the other till, he gets a gold star for chivallry.

SinisterBuggyMonth Thu 29-Nov-12 14:23:26

Oh does it show I have not read the whole thread?

Ra88 Thu 29-Nov-12 14:26:01

YADNBU ! She should have made more time for her outing if she was so worried about being freezing if she missed the bus !

SoWhatIfImWorkingClass Thu 29-Nov-12 14:56:47

Even if your child DIDN'T have autism, why should you feel obliged to let her go in front? You were there first so out of principle she should have to wait her turn no matter what the circumstances are. Just because she was in a wheelchair doesn't make her more entitled than a person asking you who wasn't in a wheelchair.

Pictureperfect Thu 29-Nov-12 15:03:11

I always say queue jumping is the only perk of being disabled (I've never asked and doesn't happen in things like supermarkets), did she say she needed to get to the bus because she was disabled? Sounded a bit cheeky and rude for her to keep giving reasons

Oh I'm quite interested in that article Flatbread as ds1 does similar stuff (I'm really not trying to spam my blog on here but it keeps being relevant). He can find places on googlemaps that he last saw 11 years ago when he was 2.

But fanjo makes a good point. If you're a teenager who can't talk and can't walk down the road alone it's not actually that usefeul It certainly doesn't reduce the level of care you need although it may help in the the people around you stop treating you like a vegetable.

Greensleeves Thu 29-Nov-12 19:42:22

ds1 is bloody useful if you are stranded in London without a tube map

he still can't tie shoe laces or go a week without wetting the bed

go figger

Flatbread do fuck off with the 'Rainman' shite, your ignorance is astounding. angry

MrsDeVere Thu 29-Nov-12 19:54:36

My son can fly

Mine can see thick people!

My DS can turn water into wine. I wish grin

Alisvolatpropiis Thu 29-Nov-12 20:09:04

I just can't understand why Flatbread is ignoring everyone who has a child with autism who has posted on this thread. You're all here explaining it to her (and me tbh) and yet she is still trying to tell you what you're all doing wrong?

That is just really beyond the pale.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Thu 29-Nov-12 20:40:30

I think it's important to remember that autism is often about extremes. Something is right or wrong, black or white, good or bad. There's no grey, nothing in between. This is particularly problematic for those with HFA. In some areas they can appear perfectly normal or well advanced but in another area be so severely autistic it's unbelievable.

For example, I'm fine with rain. Doesn't bother me in the least. But summer sunshine is my idea of hell. I'm Irish fair skinned, ie white - sunburn to lobster - back to white. I get sunburnt just looking out the window. But nothing upon the face of the earth will get me to put suncream on my skin. My 'coping strategy' is to never go out in the sun when there is a risk of sunburn. There is no way to overcome or cope with the sensory horror that is suncream.

lovelyladuree Thu 29-Nov-12 20:53:06

I'm just shocked that anyone under the age of 65 catches the bus to go anywhere.

Wow, Nora, DS has never worn sun cream, he claims to be 'allergic ' to it. He got burnt when we were in Florida and I felt terrible but as he's a teenager it's hard to keep him out of the sun.
You have explained really well how he may feel about it.

Devora Thu 29-Nov-12 20:56:55

Why, lovelyladuree?

Is that a Margaret Thatcher any man over the age of 25 who catches a bus is a failure type comment, or do you live in the Hebrides?

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Thu 29-Nov-12 21:00:24

Sauvignon if he's anything like me, it feels so vile and horrible that it makes my skin crawl. It's so horrible it takes over everything. You can't think about anything else, enjoy anything else, look at anything else. The only thing going through your mind is how it feels and how you can make it go away. The only way to cope with it is to avoid, avoid, avoid.

I'll stop getting so exasperated with him! blush

ProcrastinatingPanda Thu 29-Nov-12 21:27:27

flatbread I spent a lot of time on my post carefully explaining the differences between DS and dsd, and how this highlights the many startling differences between those on the spectrum. But instead of even acknowledging it (never mind taking on board anything I said) you've ignored my post and instead made a reference to an article perpetuating the 'Rainman' myth. Your ignorance astounds me.

Of course if I follow Flatbread's advice;

" If you shield them from all normal inconveniences, be it rain or late buses or a change in schedule, how do you expect them to cope with these things when they grow up and live in the real world?
Unless you are a recluse, you cannot avoid these, to an extent. Wouldn't it be better to help them find coping strategies rather than avoiding these normal life situations?"

I should be expecting him to get over it. hmm

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Thu 29-Nov-12 22:17:48

Yeah, but Flatbread doesn't realise that we ARE recluses precisely because we can't avoid what to others are normal inconveniences. 'Coping strategies' make others feel better because it allows them to manipulate us into holes we don't fit in. It does'nt make us feel better. As soon as we reach an age/maturity where we make our own decisions, we throw these NT shackles off and revert to our natural states.

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