Too much time in playpen for toddler?

(722 Posts)
lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 11:25:11

This morning DS 17 months woke up at 6am. I got up bf him and put him in the playpen. It is one of those extra large, hexagonal playpens.

Around 6.15 I gave him some water and changed his nappy. Then I went back to bed after making sure the playpen had only safe toys and the baby monitor was plugged in.

I fell asleep and woke up at 8.30. I went out to see DS and he was happily playing with this toys. He is very into small manipulative puzzles, shape boxes, stacking cups etc at the moment and he was busy playing with these.

He had been in the playpen for nearly 2.5 hours! Is this too long? Is there a problem that he plays happliy for this length of time by himself?

Most days I have a nap during the day for an hour or so and DS spends this time in the playpen but I have never left him for 2.5 hours before.

What do you think about this?

frootshoots Sun 25-Nov-12 11:28:36

I wouldn't. Accidents still happen, even inside bars. 2.5 hours is a long time for that age.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 11:29:15

Even with the baby monitor plugged in?

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:29:41

I think a half hour nap in the same r

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 11:30:17

I had thought he would start shouting for me after an hour which is why I was so shocked that he was in there, still happy 2.5 hours later.

RedHelenB Sun 25-Nov-12 11:30:32

I wouldn't either unless the playpen was in your room.

frootshoots Sun 25-Nov-12 11:30:37

Yep. I'm sure he is fine in there, but it just wouldn't sit right with me. Maybe it's the length of time, maybe it's that you were asleep... I don't know.

justabigdisco Sun 25-Nov-12 11:30:41

It's probably too long if you plan to do it everyday! But these things happen, baby is fine, you're less tired, don't stress! smile

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:31:16

I think a half hour nap in the same room is ok, but separate room and 2:5 hours is slightly to much when your asleep.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 11:32:05

Is an hour too long then?

What if I had a nap next to the playpen, would that be considered less neglectful?

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:34:12

In the same it's fine IMO but you can have your opinion without it being a bun fight. I'm thinking of it like what if he was sick or got stuck but didn't cry.

scuzy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:35:06

oh christ i couldnt do it. cant you nap near him? anything could happen. not saying dont nap just dont leave the room. i suppose depends on how heavy a sleeper you are. its not how long he played in it its how long he was technically on his own. nap on couch. but he is fine so dont beat yourself up over it. but the older he gets the more chances he can get out of it or do damage to himself as he explores it even more.

Goldenjubilee10 Sun 25-Nov-12 11:35:30

I used to nap on the sofa (after night shift) with ds1 in the playpen next to me when he was that age but he could have reached out to touch me had he wanted to. I don't think I could have left him in another room. Ds's 2&3 wouldn't have let me nap!

frootshoots Sun 25-Nov-12 11:37:48

Just out of interest, why do you need to go back to bed in the morning and nap during the day? Do you not sleep well at night?

ImagineJL Sun 25-Nov-12 11:38:10

Why do you need a nap in the day? And surely you could do that while he's having his nap? I may get flamed for this but I think it's totally wrong to leave a toddler awake and unattended (albeit fenced in) for 2.5 hours on occasion and an hour or so every day. If you can't stay awake to look after your child you should arrange alternative child care for when you need to sleep. And I say this as a single working parent of two young children who have always been poor sleepers, so I know how tiredness feels. What time do you go to bed?

scuzy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:39:24

i agree wholeheartedly with Imagine's post i was just trying a more softly softly approach but valid points were made.

Gilberte Sun 25-Nov-12 11:39:32

I am amazed you have a baby that occupies himself for more than ten minutes on his own! I haven't had a lie in for two years let alone been able to nap on the sofa whilst Dcs are awake!

And yes I personally think that's a long time to leave a baby but then you are blessed with a resourceful non clingy child. He would have cried if he'd needed you presumably.

squeakytoy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:39:50

I thought playpens were for keeping the baby safe while you got on with tasks around the house. I couldnt sleep knowing a toddler was awake and on their own playing with small toys..

scuzy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:40:29

but Gilberte what about choking on something or being sick. couldnt cry out then.

Runningblue Sun 25-Nov-12 11:40:43

On a separate note I am amazed your dc plays solo for that long! I wouldn't be able to leave him that long as he'd be demanding attention after,abouT 10 minutes - he's 3.5..

Gilberte Sun 25-Nov-12 11:41:25

I should add I do feel uncomfortable about this

KermitRuffinsTrumpet Sun 25-Nov-12 11:41:37

Does he not nap? Can't you nap when he does?

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 11:42:20

I have often have insomnia and DS still wakes in the night so I am often tired.

I do try and nap when he's napping but sometimes when he is playing by himself I think what is the harm of going back to bed for a while.

I will try to nap next to him in future. I just wanted to gauge people's thoughts on this and it seems I was wrong.

Gilberte Sun 25-Nov-12 11:43:03

scuzy I realise that. I was trying not to judge but I will say that I don't think you ought to be in a different room. It sounds as if you were sleeping heavily so might not have woken in any case.

LoopsInHoops Sun 25-Nov-12 11:43:19

Sorry, but I have to agree with the others. Playpens are for when needed to do stuff for short spells, not instead of parenting. They can still get into mischief in a cage!

LoopsInHoops Sun 25-Nov-12 11:44:37

Also, if he's been up for a couple of hours he needs food.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 11:45:23

Could you try not going back to bed and napping in the day so your more tired at night? Or tricks for insomnia, I always thought insomnia was people who couldn't sleep day or night.

EdgarAllanPond Sun 25-Nov-12 11:49:49

i find it a bit odd that having left your child alone all night (which is fine, and normal) you worry about an additional 2.5 hours on top of that.

i suspect quite alot of kids wake up early and play by themselves in their cot - the only difference here is you've gone in to feed them at 6ish.

a playpen should be as safe as a cot.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 11:50:39

2.5 hours for a 17 month old is fine without food! The child would have cried if he was hungry.
I'm impressed he played that long on his own!

I have to say it would never occur to me to put my DD in the playpen then go off to bed. Perhaps nap nearby on a sofa? My DD didn't sleep through the night until 2 and half so I know how crippling tiredness is.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 11:50:46

No ...for me the insomnia is about taking an hour to fall asleep at night after DS has woken up for 5 minutes. For some reason I dont have this problem in the day. I have tried not taking naps during the dat and it makes no difference to the insomnia at night.

Loops I hadnt planned on leaving him for 2.5 hours, I honestly thought he would shout for me after an hour, so that is why I didnt get him breakfast first.

surelythisoneisnttaken Sun 25-Nov-12 11:52:56

I would be worried about all the (probably rare but still possible) accidents that could happen that wouldn't necessarily mean your toddler would make enough noise to wake you (choking, entanglement etc). Especially if you're very tired, you may sleep through the monitor or accidentally miss a potential hazard you'd have spotted if you were feeling more alert.

I put my 2.5 year old toddler in his cot at lunchtime with books for a 'rest' now he has mostly dropped his nap, but I am always aware of what he is up to. I wouldn't actually go to sleep at any time when he was awake (unless my DH was also there and awake with him).

I also think it's quite a long time for a toddler that age to be playing on his own without engagement from a caregiver tbh.

Can you go to bed earlier? But I understand that might be hard if you have insomnia.

I feel for you as you're obviously very very tired, and sleep deprivation is really really hard, especially coupled with insomnia.

ErikNorseman Sun 25-Nov-12 11:53:11

I'm not ok with people leaving little children awake and going back to bed. I think it's unnecessary and lazy and dangerous, not to mention crap for the kids. Why do you need to do it?
Dozing on the sofa in the same room for 30 mins isn't so bad, but if you have to do it every day there is a problem.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 11:53:40

As for a playpen being as safe as a cot. I don't agree with that what with bumpers and all the crap people tie to cot bars. Also my little girl had been climbing out since she was 12 months so was in a big bed by then.

I think playpens are safer tbh.

ImagineJL Sun 25-Nov-12 11:54:22

If you absolutely can't get through the day without a sleep, you should have a power nap. Lie on floor next to the play pen, set an alarm for about 10-15 minutes later, and go to sleep. It won't feel like a proper sleep, but it should give you enough energy to survive the day. Being on the floor would stop you getting too comfortable and sleeping too long, and being by the play pen would enable you to hear if your toddler was distessed. And as InNeed says, maybe if you weren't having long daytime naps you might sleep better at night.

I sympathise, but I still think napping for longer than a few minutes while a toddler is awake is wrong. I have dozed off once, on the settee, after being up all night with D&V, but it was only for about 5 minutes and my kids are 7 and 3.5, and were in the same room as me watching TV.

ladyfirenze Sun 25-Nov-12 11:55:41

has any body thought the baby might have fallen back asleep in the play pen on this occasion? or maybe he whinged for you but you never heard him. I guess the thing to think about is this.... If anything went wrong, and you were fast asleep in another room, would you be comfortable that your dc was adequately supervised.... How would you feel if his dad had done this.... (I know I'd go fucking ballistic in that scenario) I also understand tiredness.... I have three dcs, the youngest two are twins and I was on my own when they were little. I used to put a dvd on in my bedroom if my dc's were up earlier than seven. Then I'd doze with one eye open, all cuddled up together.

valiumredhead Sun 25-Nov-12 11:56:35

I think what you did was fine as a one off BUT next time snooze on the sofa so you are in the same room. I also think playpens are safer than cots.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 11:58:08

Erik Some people's children simply don't sleep. I think lazy and dangerous is a bit unfair. I speak as someone whose child regularly woke up between four to THIRTEEN times a night for bloody years! I was so sleep deprived I am surprised I didn't conk out whilst she was playing in front of me.

I don't think going off to bed whilst child is in playpen is a wise idea, perhaps napping nearby would be better? However the OP made it clear in her post that her intention wasn't to leave her child for that long.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 12:00:08

Ok I will nap next to him and try to limit the naps.

Do you think it is bad for him to be in the playpen that long or is it just that I wasnt in the same room?

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 12:00:45

Actually I remember catching my DH whilst he was looking after DD lying asleep on the sofa whilst she was very little playing with her toys in front of him. I went barmy and woke him up.

His response was 'Well what do you do when you are tired in the day??!'

Seriously? I manage without sleep!

N0tinmylife Sun 25-Nov-12 12:01:34

I don't think it is a problem as long as the toys are not small enough for him to swallow and choke on. I don't think most people would worry about a toddler playing quietly in their own in their cot before a parent was awake, which I would think is similar. I do think it is very unusual for a child that young to play happily on their own for such a long time though.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 12:03:24

Also I want to say that I always double check to make sure the toys in the playpen are safe and there are no large ones he can climb onto, toys with strings, toys with small parts that may break off etc.

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 12:04:46

It already happened and I personally wouldn't waste time on feeling guilty. I'd try my best to ensure it didn't happen again simply because you were on different floors and it is quite a long time. But really the length of time is a red herring - I can't see why a choking would be more likely after 2 hrs than after 5mins and you'd checked the toys were safe. My sons have been pretty good at independent play for surprisingly long periods and I'm far from concerned about that, despite the mummy guilt and sadness when I realise they are fine without my input....

surelythisoneisnttaken Sun 25-Nov-12 12:05:34

I think 2.5 hours is definitely too long to be in a playpen - if you were setting the timer for a 15 minute power nap in the same room, then that length of time I am sure would be fine.

I was never in a position to even think of doing that as my toddler wouldn't go 5 minutes of playing on his own at that age - he also woke at least 7 times a night then so I completely understand how tired you must feel.

ImagineJL Sun 25-Nov-12 12:06:47

Well there's bad and there's bad. I think it's potentially dangerous to be left in the play pen while your asleep, wherever that is, so yes that's bad. Being left in the play pen that long while you're awake isn't "bad" as such, but it's pretty dull and not what most parents would aim to do on a regular basis. And as I said before, I would be looking into paid childcare if I really needed that much "me time" regularly.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 12:10:50

What length of time would you consider ok for him to play by himself? In the playpen or out of it (with me a but not directly interacting with him)?

I do play with him and do puzzles, read stories but he is pretty happy playing on his own a lot of the time. So I leave him to it a lot and get on with my own things. When he is not in the playpen he still spends lots of time playing alone.

Is this bad or is it just the playpen confinement that is bad?

ImagineJL Sun 25-Nov-12 12:14:02

I think it's OK if he's out of the play pen and if you're interacting with him frequently eg stopping to play with him for five minutes as you walk through with the laundry basket and so on. But if he's so good at sitting and amusing himself, you surely don't need the play pen?

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 25-Nov-12 12:14:06

My initial reaction was 'OMG you did what? How lazy & crap?!' but then I had a word with myself grin

Once I thought it through I decided that IF the playpen doesn't have any unsafe toys in it (you say he likes the small puzzle things - how small are they??) then it's no different to a todder that wakes in the night and plays with their toys. Most toddlers wake up far more often and for far longer than parents realise.

You had a monitor on, no problem going to bed rather than napping on the couch - no different to leaving him at night.

If you are sure he's happy, then it's not a problem smile and you should probably count your blessings and make the most of it while it lasts!! Though hopefully that will coincide with him sleeping better and you wont be so knackered in the day!!

frootshoots Sun 25-Nov-12 12:15:06

In my opinion if you're questioning how much time you leave your child 'to it' then its too much. I personally, at that age, only left DD so I could do the dishes/tidy up/cook dinner, and she too was and still is fantastic at entertaining herself. But that is the age when they absorb so much and benefit from not being stuck in a cage with toys for hours each day.

What else besides napping do you do when he is in there?

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 25-Nov-12 12:15:55

I think it's the going back to bed part that doesn't quite sit right.

Fair enough if they've decided to wake up at sparrow's fart and you have genuine sleep issues maybe lie on the sofa for a bit, but physically going back to bed? No, can't understand that tbh.

Not flaming, I understand what tiredness is, I've been an LP since DS was 4 mo! But it just wouldn't occur to me to get him up then go back to bed.

I think maybe your sleep issues are more serious than you realise. No harm done so don't beat yourself up but I'd seriously consider seeing your GP.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 12:22:29

imagine he's only in the playpen when Im not around (I also put him in there when he keeps playing with dangerous things like power switches, like a mini timeout).

Otherwise he is free to roam wherever he likes as I am supervising him while I do chores, read, internet, talk on phone etc

I do interact with him for long sessions of maybe 15 minutes or so when we read books or play with puzzles etc. I also talk to him every now and then about what he is doing etc. But often he will play for an hour or so without any interaction from me. Is that bad?

I am just trying to get others opinions as I dont have much experince with children. Even when we go to playgroups etc it is hard to determine how different children are in their own home environments.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 25-Nov-12 12:26:47

There are a lot of Mummy Martyrs. 'Oh I never slept for 48 years why should you'. It's just bs. Look at the actual situation. A child is happy enough playing by themselves in a safe environment, you are getting some much needed sleep. Just because some people are handwringing and doing the 'oh wont someone think of the children' doesn't make what you are doing wrong.

Some kids wont play alone for more than 2 minutes - I suspect that's largely because they have never had the opportunity or encouragement to do so, but have been 'entertained' since birth... they make very demanding children/adults who are unable to amuse themselves (of course there are some children that no matter what you do, they wont play alone).

<Not everyone who disagrees is a Mummy Martyr, lots are just lovely MNers who wouldn't do it themselves>

Tryharder Sun 25-Nov-12 12:28:17

I think you are being a bit crap and lazy as well. Sorry. Would have been better if you had napped on the sofa next to him. What if he had choked on a brick or something?

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 25-Nov-12 12:28:36

No Lexiss - it's not bad. It's just fine. He is happy, you are happy. There is no reason a child needs constant interaction when he is playing happily.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 25-Nov-12 12:30:37

If she had been napping on the sofa and he had choked on a brick she wouldn't have heard him either - choking is silent. She has said, about 10 times, she checks to make sure the toys in the play pen are safe. Do you sleep in the same room as your child? It's no different.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 12:32:33

I don't think babies need constant interaction or engagement. I had two babies that would entertain themselves for a while every day, I had college work/tidying up/ cooking dinner/baths and they would play by themselves happily for as long as I left them.

You haven't harmed your babie by not interacting with him for 2:5 hours! Next time IMO it would be better if you took your duvet to the sofa and dozed off with an alarm set so you don't end up with a shit it's been 2:5 hrs again.

crazyhatlady Sun 25-Nov-12 12:33:12

At that age my ds could climb out a playpen/cot! I don't think it's ok to leave a toddler unattended for a lengthy period of time. My 4 year old is up at 6am every day therefore so am I, even if I've had a crap sleep (i also suffer insomnia) or like today am ill. Luckily no harm done this time but I wouldn't chance my luck like that again if I were you.

Icelollycraving Sun 25-Nov-12 12:34:14

Long sessions of 15 minutes of playing?

KenLeeeeeee Sun 25-Nov-12 12:35:41

Logically it's not really different to letting them sleep/play in the cot unattended through the night, which many of us do without a second thought. However, somehow it just doesn't sit right with me to leave a toddler in a playpen and then sleep in a different room. I can't explain it, but it just feels like it would be better to snooze on the sofa near the playpen instead.

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 12:35:55

I'm totally with Chipping. Children need space to play - frequent interference when they are occupied isn't going to improve their concentration and problem solving. Getting the balance right for your child is about you observing and assessing, not following anyone else's rules.

And also wondering how a 17mo would choke on a brick! I'm presuming it isn't a small lego brick of course, as you'd said the toys were safe...

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 25-Nov-12 12:41:31

KenLeee - It just 'feels wrong' is social conditioning and I think we should think about 'why' we think it's wrong and if we can't think of a good reason, then maybe accept it's just social conditioning and not actually wrong. IYSWIM.

I really couldn't imagine going back to bed while my DD was awake in the house during the day, no matter where she was. If I really need to nap, I will do so while she naps. It feels wrong to leave her to play alone in a room without me being there or very close by awake.

What do you do while he naps? Couldn't you sleep then?

What sort of things are you doing to tackle his night time sleep? Maybe a bit of sleep training and you won't need to get up to him when he does his five minute wakes. Also, what time does he go to bed? Better to have an early night and be up early with him than stay up late and have to nap it off while he plays alone.

I also have insomnia, and agree that cutting out naps in the day doesn't = better night time sleep (funnily enough I find it doesn't work for toddlers as well as me) but I know DD needs me around and alert while she is awake during the day and it is my responsibility as her parent to be around for her (even if I am not directly interacting with her - she will often sit and play with a set of stacking cups for 30/40 mins with minimal attention from me).

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 25-Nov-12 12:43:54

You clearly are going to carry on doing it so why ask?

You know it's wrong you know it's neglectful.

You need to address your insomnia that probably is not actual insomnia more a case of misplaced sleep hours and sort it out.

Sleeping during the day is going to cause a problem with sleeping at night it's bloody obvious, sort it out.

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 12:45:08

If you were tired enough to sleep for 2 and a half hours you obviously needed to sleep. And imo it makes no difference whether you are asleep with a monitor in another room, or asleep beside the playpen.

And as long as the contents of the playpen are as safe as the contents of a cot would be, what is the difference between putting him in the cot while you have a rest or having him in the playpen?

It seems to me that he was happy, you are now better rested, it's win-win.

ThalianotFailure Sun 25-Nov-12 12:45:18

having thought about it, I really don't think there's a problem with this - your intent was not to leave him there for that long, you knew he was safe and the fact that he was perfectly happy playing by himself is great! You catching up on sleep is important. Is there room to set his playpen up in his bedroom? That might be a bit better - but you had the monitor on so it's really not a problem. The fact that he's happy to play by himself is fantastic - and it may not last so I'd make the most of it. I agree that children don't always need or want interference from adults - if I see DD playing happily, wittering away to her toys, I leave her to it and go and have a quiet cup of tea!

ThalianotFailure Sun 25-Nov-12 12:46:31

It's not wrong or neglectful, what rubbish. If he's been crying and she'd not gone to him, that would be wrong and neglectful. For goodness' sake.

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 12:46:40

And sock, I don't agree - it's not wrong, it's certainly not neglectful. Unless sleeping in a different room from your child at night is neglectful hmm.

And your post is spectacularly unhelpful and shows complete ignorance of how difficult life can be with insomnia.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 12:53:44

I don't know... I do find this a bit weird, but maybe that's because I don't know anyone that uses a playpen?

However, my 2 year old goes to his bedroom with a gate on the door for 2 hours every afternoon and either naps or plays, and sometimes I nap too... I definitely don't consider this wrong or neglectful! Also he sometimes wakes an hour before us in the morning and plays in his room.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 12:54:55

Pretty sure half the posters here telling the OP she should be sleeping whilst child sleeps and so on, have never had a child who

a) Sleeps badly at night and
b) Hardly naps

As for catching up on sleep being 'me time'... words fail me!

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 12:58:33

lexiss - I also do a few periods of 10-15 minutes playing with DS (reading, playdoh etc) interspersed with him playing alone. I am glad to have a child who can entertain himself rather than needing 24/7 entertainment grin

PurpleGentian Sun 25-Nov-12 13:01:28

If the playpen's only got safe toys in (so no choking / strangulation hazard), you've got the baby monitor on, he can't climb out, and he seems happy playing by himself, then I don't think it's a problem.

I'd second the suggestions about trying to get help with the insomnia though (and apologies if you're already working on that!)

The only other thing I'd say is to check that your DS can't use any of the playpen toys as steps to get himself high enough to clamber over the top of the playpen, IYSWIM. My DS is 15 months, and often climbs on top of toys and low furniture to try and get at things we've put out of reach.

CanIHaveAPetGiraffePlease Sun 25-Nov-12 13:02:38

It sounds like you might be having some trouble knowing how to spend time with your child. Somewhere like home start might be able to help. You could have a volunteer come and play with you and your child for a couple of hours a week. You'd get an idea of the sorts of things youcan do together and some company and a friendly face.

Do you go to any groups or children's centres? It could be boredom on your part -at least meeting up with others or a swimming class gives you something to do or focus on while interacting with your child.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 25-Nov-12 13:04:45

Having a problem that prevents you being alert during the day and not able to remain awake that is easy to address with a bit of effort and time.

If you don't either address it or obtain support with your responsibilities is wrong and is neglectful. If you can fix an issue you should.

If you think I know nothing about insomnia you may wish to check out the timings on lots of my posts I'm constantly up at night the difference is I have learnt how to not let it impact on my day and take steps all the time to minimise the problem.

akaemmafrost Sun 25-Nov-12 13:05:43

It's neglectful. Wasn't he hungry?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:06:48

The posters that feel this is neglectful - is leaving a toddler to play alone in their room for a couple of hours also neglectful?

SolomanDaisy Sun 25-Nov-12 13:10:00

Enjoy it while you can, I've had to stop using the playpen at all as DS can climb out and he's the same age as yours! It's not really a long-term solution for your insomnia, as it won't be long before he can get out. At 17 months I'd guess he must have been asleep for some of the time though, 2.5 hours is a long time to play alone.

akaemmafrost Sun 25-Nov-12 13:10:34

I would not leave my toddler to play alone in their room for a couple of hours. Mine were always in the same room as me at that age. Playing alone but with me able to see and check on them.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:13:44

Even at night akaemmafrost, or if they wake up really early? My DS is 2, so older than the OP's, but I am definitely not getting out of bed before 7am shock grin I think it is still good for him to have a couple of hours quiet time after lunch too, even if he doesn't nap.

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 13:13:52

Oh, aren't you a wonderful person Sock hmm

Any of you who suffer from insomnia, just pm Sock. It is easy to address and can be fixed. If you don't fix it, you are obviously lazy and neglectful.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 13:13:57

Neglectful?? Seriously? She didn't do it on purpose. The child was in safe surroundings and there was a baby monitor nearby.

I don't think it is advisable but saying it is neglectful is so over the top.

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 25-Nov-12 13:15:57

Sam its pretty piss poor if your not aware enough to know if there is a problem

ll31 Sun 25-Nov-12 13:16:57

wouldn't go asleep with toddler that age awake and playing in other room... tbh you sound like you dont have much intetaction if you view 15 mins as long.. not saying theres anything wrong with that, just v different to my experience

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 13:18:27

The op is aware that her insomnia is a problem. She isn't sleeping at night, so in order to be able to look after her child properly she makes sure she sleeps during the day, while her child is safe and occupied.

Sock's posts are spectacularly unhelpful, as well as being dismissive and rude.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:19:01

Who isn't aware enough to know there is a problem though Sock, especially with a baby monitor? Actually I have never used a baby monitor and still wake up if DS ever cries in the night/is ill/falls out of bed.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:19:44

15 minutes of 1:1 playing with a toddler is pretty long in my opinion!

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 25-Nov-12 13:20:17

Or how about instead of pming me you just go and see you doctor or talk to a medical practitioner.

At the very least look on the NHS website and try what they advise

akaemmafrost Sun 25-Nov-12 13:20:49

Well mine co slept until about 3 or 4 so it never really came up. I couldn't have let them get up without me either, they wanted breakfast!

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 13:23:05

How do you know she hasn't?

<adds to spreadsheet>

[sigh]

Idocrazythings Sun 25-Nov-12 13:24:06

I think it's good your child can play independently and amuse himself. It's not good for them if we are always entertaining them and doing things for them. I would say 1 1/2 hours (with you around, not ignoring him, but doing jobs- dinner, washing, cleaning etc. would be a reasonable time in there as long as he knows you are around and can see you most of the time. At least he's playing and not spacing out in front of the TV.

You probably should cut back your naps, though, as soon he'll be climbing out of the play pen, you'll get NO nap time and end up in a world of hurt! Don't beat yourself up over having a nap though, you must be pretty tired to have to do it (is your iron levels etc. ok?)

orchidee Sun 25-Nov-12 13:24:27

Neglectful parents wouldn't question what they'd done, or ask for other opinions.

It could be neglectful if your child knew "no point in crying even though I'm upset, no-one will come" but that's not what happened here.

Psychologists say that a toddler should have time for child-directed play, so you can e.g. start an activity then back off, or let them choose what to play with and in what way (e.g. I'm not stacking the cups, I'm going to bang them together instead.)

I'd imagine your baby did this for a while, napped then woke. I'm also up during the night with an 18mo and understand that if mum's tired in the morning, baby may be too.

ll31 Sun 25-Nov-12 13:27:19

maybe long in boredom but not in time!!!!

IneedAsockamnesty Sun 25-Nov-12 13:27:59

I don't I was responding to your idea that people should pm me to fix there insomnia.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 13:29:10

I posted because I wasn't sure if it was the right thing to do. I wouldn't ask anyone in real life because I wouldn't want judgement, but how else am I to get an idea of what is considered bad or good parenting without asking?

I won't nap in a separate room from him again as it is clear the majority disagree with the safety of this.

Those without playpens what do you do when you go to shower/toilet? Genuine question.

We might not interact much while he plays with his toys at home, but I take him out to playgroups/swimming/library most days. And we always chat or sing in the car or when out with the buggy.

Also the reason we have a playpen is that we rent and cannot use safety gates.

The shower or toilet doesnt take 2.5hrs OP. Put ds in the pen while you use the loo and shower before he gets up / afyer he is in bed / while he is napping.

HazelnutinCaramel Sun 25-Nov-12 13:31:31

Hmmm. It sounds like he was never in any danger so I don't think you did too much wrong.

Actually the thing that concerns me in this scenario is that he was happy to play by himself for so long. I think that is very unusual and a bit worrying. I don't know enough about child development to know if it's an indicator of anything being wrong and more than likely isn't but maybe worth a chat with the HV.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:31:42

ll31 - long enough though. A few 10-15 minute bursts of 1:1 playing during the day is fine. Some parents make the mistake (especially with their first) or playing/entertaining them constantly and the poor things arrive at nursery completely unable to just play without an adult interacting/organising/directing them.

No,he wasn't hungry, if a 17mo is hungry you will know about it.

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 13:33:01

lexiss, it sounds to me as though you are doing fine.

Playpens on mumsnet get the same reaction as reins. Some people hate them, and think that they in some way restrict a child's freedom. Personally, I think it is a great way to keep children safe (and in fact when ds got a bit older I put the tv/dvd etc in the playpen and let him loose in the room grin. Same with reins - if you have a child who bolts, reins are great. If people have well-behaved happy to hold hand children, they think reins are cruel.

I hope your insomnia improves. Your son sounds like a happy child, so I'm sure you'll be fine.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:35:06

lexis - under 2ish DS would come with me to the toilet or while I showered, or I showered while he was asleep. Now I either leave him playing downstairs while I am in the toilet or he comes with me. While I shower he usually plays in his bedroom (gate on the door). If I couldn't have gates on his bedroom door and on the kitchen door I would probably use a playpen.

When he was 12-18 months we did basically have one room that was totally baby safe, and I would often nap on the sofa there while he played. No different to napping on the sofa in the same room his is in a playpen.

DefinitelyNotMe Sun 25-Nov-12 13:37:57

Interesting, DP and I had a similar argument conversation about him leaving 9 month old DD "playing happily" in her cot for over an hour, with him sleeping in the same room. My issue is that he says he will wake up if she cries, but I've been there when she has cried and he just doesn't hear her. And I'm the one with insomnia while he gets a good 8 hours a night If he really is happy for that long I'm not sure it's an issue...

My dd (14mo) will wake in the night or in the morning and talk to herself quite happily for two hours or more so I don't think it's a sign of anything to worry about. Some kids are happy in their own company nd some are not.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza Sun 25-Nov-12 13:41:53

If he had a nanny and she did this, how would you feel?

If he was at nursery and they left him unattended in a playpen for 2.5 hours, how would you feel?

I have insomnia as well, I know how utterly crap it can be, but if this had happened to me I would be straight back at the doctors because being THIS tired just isn't okay when you are in charge of small children.

I sympathise, I do, but I think you need to make managing your condition better your top priority. What have you tried so far? What does your doctor say?

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 13:43:36

Hasn't it already been mentioned that he might in fact have slept for a significant part of that 2.5 hrs? My experience with my boys (and granted they are easy placid ones) is that they let me know if they are hungry, thirsty or bored. I am amazed that anyone is worried at a child being happily alone for 2.5 hrs from 6.15am to 8 whatever it was. The baby monitor was on, op would have been as aware of a problem at this time as she would have been with a problem at 3am. Seriously - don't you think he just dozed a bit himself in between bouts of playing? Please op, don't be worried that your child is happy!

I agree with Gentleness, he probably went back to sleep anyway.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:45:35

HoldMe - if I was paying a nanny/nursery I would expect to be paying for their full attention. If my mum/sister/friend was doing me a favour and babysitting for a weekend then it would be a totally different matter! You can't really compare parenting with paid childcare hmm

It's just the same as leaving them in a cot IMO, if dd wakes up and doesn't start crying then I leave her where she is and get my sleep. She often goes back to sleep anyway.

I'm a big fan of the large playpen we have a dog and I put 14 mth DD in ours whilst I potter about doing housework. I don't leave them alone together so a playpen is ideal when I'm in and out.

DD will play happily for a couple of hours in there but I chat to her as I go past and stop and play for a few minutes every so often.

I love the playpen, and wouldn't be without it.

But I think could NEVER leave her in it whilst I slept, and definitely not in another room, monitor or not.

With toddlers you don't need to worry about them when they are making a noise - it's when they are quiet that there is most likely to be a problem.

Yes I use a playpen. I leave DD downstairs in it, but I listen to her babbling and toys moving constantly and if it goes silent that is when I check she's ok, because she isn't actually doing what I would expect - ie playing with toys. Last time she was playing with a spider! (Eeeek!) But it could mean something more worrying like choking or a fall that has knocked them out.

If you are asleep you are missing the silences, and for me when a toddler goes silent they need checking on.

Plus At 17 mths he could discover how to climb out at any time - what if he'd cracked it this morning, or any other time you are asleep? He could have done anything, gone anywhere and you wouldn't know. Even in the same room.

Playpens are brilliant but you still need to check every 10mins or so. They are an aid to parenting not a substitute.

I believe when DD is awake I should be awake - - no matter how tired I am. She relies on me to keep her safe 24/7 and now she's mobile and I know she WILL suddenly climb out of her cot and playpen one day leaving her awake in either whilst I was asleep and unaware is unthinkable.

FWIW she wakes 2-3 times a night and barely naps. I am knackered. But then I kind of anticipated I would be when I had kids, for a couple of years at least.

Do you have a DP? Could you nap when they get home?

I think this is an accident waiting to happen. He's safe now, but one day he will learn how to climb out and if you carry on sleeping whilst he is awake chances are you will be sleeping when he does.

They don't only tell you to sleep when the baby sleeps for your benefit - the reverse is true... Sleep when they sleep because you need to be awake when they are awake.

Look at it this way - If something (God forbid) happened whilst you were sleeping and left DS alone what view do you think SS would take?

I can tell you. It would be neglect. And that's why you should not be doing it.

Idocrazythings Sun 25-Nov-12 13:47:58

Just remember OP just as you wouldn't ask people in RL these sorts of things a lot of posters probably wouldn't say these things in RL to someone's face. I feel for you and you are getting a really hard time here; yes, maybe sleeping is not a perfect choice to make but there are a far worse load of things you could do. and you've now said you won't do it any more

I only shower in the evenings, I have a friend who gets up at 6 to get ready for the day in peace. It's good to do it at night as the heat helps your body unwind and get to sleep better.

Maryz Sun 25-Nov-12 13:48:17

I would expect my nanny and the nursery workers to have slept at night and not to have to sleep during the day when I was paying them to look after my child, so it is irrelevant.

AmberSocks Sun 25-Nov-12 13:51:30

Im quite shocked you went off to bed and left him on his own in another room in a playpen,i know theres a little risk of somehting bad happening but its not even that,i just think its not very nice to be leaving him on his own for that long,yes he may of been happy enough but i wouldnt want to tbh.

Why cant you just nap when he naps?

MrsRhett is your DD big enough to stand in her cot with her shoulders above the rail? If so she's big enough to climb out. And once they realise it takes seconds - and ends in a big bump because they have no idea how to land...

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:54:05

Does no one ever leave their child in a cot while they are in another room?

FernandoIsFaster Sun 25-Nov-12 13:54:41

shock . Just... shock

Never in a million years would I dream of doing this.

No 17 month old I have ever known would stay quiet for 2.5 hours. I can only imagine that your child is used to being left alone for such long periods which is worrying imho.

crazyhatlady Sun 25-Nov-12 13:54:46

Having read your last post lexiss your comment about not interacting with you child whilst they play stands out.
No you don't have to physically play with your child if they're happily playing with toys however it's still important to interact with them whilst they're doing so ( not all the time obviously). It's how they learn.
If you're child regularly plays by himself for long periods of time then that is really unusual and I would probably mention it to hv.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 13:57:42

Or that he slept Fernando?

Seriously, a child regularly playing by themselves is something to mention to the HV? My DS has always played fine by himself when we are at home confused

Idocrazythings Sun 25-Nov-12 13:58:45

A child keeping themselves amused for a length of time could also be a sign of intelligence. Jus sayin'

SolomanDaisy Sun 25-Nov-12 14:01:10

The shower/toilet thing is a nightmare now we can't use the playpen! DS comes with me. I have the world's quickest showers with him peering in and giggling. Fortunately he finds it too funny to run off. I also use the phrase, 'not now darling, mummy's wiping her bottom', more than I'd like...

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 14:01:46

fernando that s a big leap to make. If you are going to accuse someone of neglect just come out and say it.

op this s pretty much what playpens are for. To keep children safe whilst their carers do other things.
But I agree with the others, don't go to another room. Sleep on the sofa next to him.

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 25-Nov-12 14:05:19

I certainly don't think the playing alone is an issue. If he wanted you to play with him he'd be sure to let you know! Independent play is very important and if he enjoys it then you following him round is just going to piss him off.

I hope it didn't coma across as dismissive or rude when I suggested seeing your GP. It certainly wasn't meant that way. I just think that if you need to nap every day then there is a problem. We all have the odd tired week day and those that say they don't are talking straight out of their arses, but when it becomes every day I think it's a bit different.

I don't know anything about sleep disorders so I have no idea if it's a pattern your body has sunk into and it can be sort of re-trained or if it needs medical help so if it was me I'd have to ask for help that's all I meant.

I don't think it's exactly the same as sleeping in a different room at night but I'd agree it's pretty damn far from neglectful for crying out loud.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:06:46

If my child wanted to get up at 6am, I certainly wouldn't be getting up and playing with them.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 14:08:18

pahahaha

If something (God forbid) happened whilst you were sleeping and left DS alone what view do you think SS would take?

Well it all depends on circumstances, if you left them starving in the kitchen with the oven on and gave them the sharp knives to cut up the half bag of illegal drugs to amuse themselves, then i imagine they would take a dim view.

If you left them in a safe secure area, like a cot, travel cot or playpen, with age appropriate toys and they were well fed/watered/cuddled then I think it would go down as a tragic accident.

And plenty of toddlers are happy to keep themselves occupied for longer periods than 10 minutes. Insinuting that because a toddler is happy to play alone for a couple of hours is because they are obviously the product of a neglectful parent is as insulting as me saying that children that can't go longer than 10 minutes without interaction must be because they have some behaviour definiciency - please note that i don't believe this at all, just showing how absurd it is!

If you're child regularly plays by himself for long periods of time then that is really unusual and I would probably mention it to hv. I don't think i should even justify this with an answer, its that fucking stupid and insulting.

RosemaryHoyt Sun 25-Nov-12 14:08:41

I think you have been really sensible asking Lexiss, I think a lot of posters are a bit jealous as they would love a 2.5hr lie in. Agree with the mummy martyr post above. I would be on the sofa, but not because that would feel more 'right' to me, not rational, as DSs are in cots for 14 hrs out of 24 and play in the morning without waking me. if I'm lucky

Playpens are great for safety, showers and toilets etc.

SugarplumMary Sun 25-Nov-12 14:10:42

I'd have slept in the same room - on sofa or floor.

I know the ideal is your always up when they are but I had 3 close together was regularly up bf all night or dealing with nightmares or had some horrible stressful stuff happen to us that left me drained or was ill and sometime pg but had no one to help me so I did fall asleep.

It is best to do it with them in a play pen - safe and happy and later transfixed sat next to you in front of appropriate TV while you doze or next to you in bed playing.

If you have one who is still napping then yes – try and nap then or at least stop still ie down and rest and if you have someone you can call you can come round – I often didn’t - then obviously that is better.

As long as the bulk of the day you are interacting with him and he's safe while you sleep and he'll wake you if he needs to - I'd assume he'll be fine.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 14:12:56

17 months old, abandoned for 2.5 hours.

Im shocked how many people are ok with this. He may be contained and safe but he was totally alone. Hes just 17 months.

Perhaps he did sleep, but Im assuming that there was nothing but floor there? People are ok with this too?

Jeez OP just have go to bed earlier.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:14:16

Abandoned grin

My 27 month old is abandoned in his room for 2 hours every afternoon. And 12 hours overnight if I'm lucky

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 14:15:05

Lexxis, I have a 12 year old and a nearly 2 year old. My 12 year old sounds similar to your dc, when he was little. I used a playpen for both, and both are 'normal' children. Ds1 would play for hours on his own in the afternoons/evenings, quite happily. Equally he would play with other children when he was out and about.

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 14:15:13

Play-pen may mean padded floor and anyway, my kids could sleep fine on the floor as can children all over the world.

Not alone - baby monitor.

I'm beginning to wonder if I am a flaky mum or if others are just more precious.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 14:15:24

Sam
"If my child decided to get up at 6am I certainly would be playing with them."

Im assuming you have chosen not to have children. If you have, for the love of God why?

hiviolet Sun 25-Nov-12 14:15:37

It's a very long time to be alone and awake. Not the same as being alone at night, clearly.

SugarplumMary Sun 25-Nov-12 14:15:53

Why would you assume that there was 'just floor' when the OP says he was
happily playing with this toys.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 14:16:23

abandoned yes thats the word for it hmm

I abandon my dc a lot wink

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 14:16:50

Sam to sleep I assume?

That is no comparison and you know it. Otherwise, why shut your child in its room for 2 hours?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:18:00

OHforDUCKS - I shouldn't have had children because I don't want to get up ridiculously early hmm I'm just not the morning (or martyr) type I'm afraid. After 7am, ok - 8am, great. 6am - not a chance.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 14:18:21

Just floor TO SLEEP on. Someone suggested he may have slept. Unless you mean its better to use a train as a pillow?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:18:54

Sometimes he doesn't sleep in the afternoon. Is still in his room 12.30-2.30pm though.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 14:19:22

Abandoned grin im away to call SS on myself!

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 14:19:43

Abandoned?
No. Abandoned is what happened to my ds. Left without food, stimulation and love. Never knowing if he was going to be cared for. He still expects to be left, 9 years later.

Being in a warm, comfy playpen with toys and the security of knowing your mum will be back is not being abandoned.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 14:20:02

So when they were babies if they woke you before 7am you left them to it?

Fair enough.

I actually cant be fucked to argue with that.

Idocrazythings Sun 25-Nov-12 14:22:08

Sam let us know when you find better parents for your child, I'll give them mine too as 6am is NOT wake up time in my house either

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 14:22:18

I'm not getting up at 6 to play with my kids.
That's a sure fire way of telling them that 6am is the right time to get up and play.

And it isn't.

I wouldn't stay up to 3 am to play with my kids either, however much they wanted me to.

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 14:22:36

So a lot of you leave your babies (below 18 months) to go to sleep upstairs? Thats 'normal' is it? Ive never known any parent in RL to do that.

Whatever floats your boats.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 14:24:09

No. Most of us do not get up and play choo choos at 6am just because a toddler is demanding that we do.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 14:24:21

What if they woke at 4am? or 3am? or what if they don't wake up til 8am? sometimes my ds didn't wake up till 10. Did i miss the chapter in babyrearing that said you have to be up at 7am for dc's?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:26:18

I always treated before 7am as night time. Before 12 months that meant coming into bed with me to breastfeed/doze in the dark. After 12 months that meant staying in his cot with some books/toys while I went back to bed. By 18 months he was in a bed so could potter about playing in his room until a reasonable hour.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 14:26:55

Most of us have said at that time we doze on the sofa or bring toddler back into our bed with a dvd on. Thats completely the same as abandoning a child to go on holiday for a week with the tap running for water hmm

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:27:37

I personally wouldn't leave a baby/toddler downstairs in a playpen and sleep upstairs, and I don't think the OP should either. However I have left a toddler playing in his bedroom while I am in bed, and I have slept on the sofa while a baby/toddler plays around me.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 14:28:37

I don't actually know where my kids are ATM.

Violet77 Sun 25-Nov-12 14:29:12

I didn't have a playpen, they are just cages for small children. I made the house safe. Why do people need them?

I would never have left mine alone to sleep. Even when horribly sleep deprived i wouldn't have done that. At 17m mine could climb out of cots, they would pile up the toys if they couldn't reach. My daughter could open doors wih keys at that age.

Sorry but it's wrong chldren deserve interaction in a two and a half hour window, call family for help.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 14:29:43

Op could you sit and read or something to relax a bit rather than napping? At least then you can hear him if your concerned.

Ds is just 3 and if he wakes before 7 he plays in his room. It's probably about the last 6 months I have felt happy doing that.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 14:30:01

He wasn't abandoned. This wasn't neglect. It's no different from loads of parents who leave their children in the cot until they decide to get up and go into them.
Besides, it was an accident and OP is asking for advice and has said she will take it.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 14:30:38

Id much prefer to use a cage and have a shower/shit by myself then be a martyr.

Idocrazythings Sun 25-Nov-12 14:32:09

My DD loved nothing more than playing with a (clean) pair of knickers out my drawer when she was quite small, in bed next to me while I dozed at 6am! Oh, the shame of bad parenting. never could get the other two interested though sad

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 14:34:26

This thread is quite stunning, and occasionally hilarious, in its martyrdom. It always gets like this on MN when someone admits to the fact they'd do anything for a decent night's sleep.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:34:29

Violet - do children deserve interaction in any two hour window? How about 3am-5am?

SaggyOldClothCatPuss Sun 25-Nov-12 14:34:44

DS used to spend hours in his prison! He loved it. He was born into an extended family under one roof who adored him and he got unlimited attention, but he loved it in there and would play for hours. OP there is nothing wrong with putting your DS in there, but even I wouldnt sleep in a different room.
I have similar sleep problems though, and can often still be up at 4am. Its a hard cycle to break. I know damn well that I ought to just go and lie in bed and read and I would drop off at a sensible time, but at 10pm I just feel wide awake. I really have to force myself.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 14:36:24

If it was my child i would be concerned that:-

a, He was happy for such a long time in such a confined space. Does he not walk/move about/want to explore?
b, He was happy for such a long time with no human interaction. I know personality accounts for alot but at such a young age i would not consider this normal behaviour.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 14:37:14

well ds bedroom is upstairs, mines is downstairs, he goes for a nap during the day, in his bed upstairs. Sometimes he plays for a while first. And sometimes he falls asleep on the floor/on his teddies/ on his chair. And sometimes i go for a nap in my bed. Sometimes i do housework mumsnet. Is that really what people call neglect nowadays?

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 14:38:11

As far as I'm concerned, the first three years of your child's life are about basic survival. You do whatever gets you through.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 14:38:45

My d would of been happy playing by herself for 2 hours with a couple of saucepans and a wooden spoon. Or I would put dora the bloody explorer/wonder pets and she would be transfixed for as long as the tv was on for.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:38:47

I think it comes down to people with very demanding children who need constant entertainment assume they are the norm, and cannot grasp that some children are content to amuse themselves or enjoy a bit of quiet time.

NeedabreaknotabloodyKitKat Sun 25-Nov-12 14:39:32

"I didn't have a playpen, they are just cages for small children. I made the house safe. Why do people need them?"

Dunno, maybe I don't need it, I'll try without tomorrow and report back. Monday's a quiet day in A&E, right?

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 14:39:47

You know I think if I am a flaky, abandoning parent and not nearly precious enough and put having a healthy mum above indulging ds's occasional desire for play at unreasonable hours - then I'm in pretty good company! later this evening I'll raise an alcoholic wine to the band of like-minded parents on here, even though baby is due in 4wks and I'm laid up with an evil cold and contractions from overdoing the nesting for my precious 3rd child who'll be abandoned at 6am once they're over a year, just like the others...

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 14:39:57

I think it comes down to people with very demanding children who need constant entertainment assume they are the norm, and cannot grasp that some children are content to amuse themselves or enjoy a bit of quiet time.

^^ this

NapaCab Sun 25-Nov-12 14:47:37

Am boiling over with envy here. My DS is 13 months and would scream blue murder if I even thought about putting him into a playpen. He won't let me out of his sight for more than 2 minutes so I'm amazed that your DS can play happily on his own for an hour at a time when you're not in the room. My DS can play on his own for short times if I'm around and he can see me but if I leave the room e.g. to go and get something, then he cries for me.

One thing that would worry me about what you're doing is how do you know he isn't crying / whimpering in his playpen and you're sleeping through it? If you're used to getting a nap at a certain time, you might just be sleeping through the baby monitor. He could have cried in those 2.5. hours and you might just not have heard him. That's always what has stopped me from ever leaving DS on his own while I nap or snooze.

I really don't think playpens are a good idea but that might just be because my DS would hate it and scream so I assume they're cruel - but it could be that other babies are just not as clingy as mine.

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 25-Nov-12 14:53:29

Poor OP, I hope you're not taking all this nonsense to heart.

Jesus, a mother asks for advice and she's told that she's a terrible neglectful mother? This place makes me fume sometimes it really does.

She asked for advice, it's the ones that don't ask for advice that are neglectful imo. And anyone who is completely sure that every decision they make is right is almost certainly a twat not the sort of parent I want to be.

Why do people fell the need to express such extreme opinions? How is that helpful?

Is there really no middle ground for some of you? Surely it's a lot more helpful and supportive to actually say something constructive.

Dear God, I'll bet your RL friends don't ask you for advice more than once.

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 25-Nov-12 14:57:07

(That mini-rant wasn't directed at everyone btw, there have been many lovely posts amidst all the crap)

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 14:57:32

Do you not hear your DS in the night though NapaCab? I hear my DS wake up in the night even before he cries (and without a baby monitor) and most of my mum friends say the same thing - they are very tuned in to their child, even when asleep. Unlike my DH who can literally sleep through DS crying and vomitting in the bed next to him hmm

RandallPinkFloyd Sun 25-Nov-12 15:05:37

I wish I could sleep through some of it Sam, I wake up at every blooming fart angry. I thought It would change when he went into his own room. Nope, my body still feels a need to be at full attention if he sneezes!

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 15:05:39

I think it comes down to people with very demanding children who need constant entertainment assume they are the norm, and cannot grasp that some children are content to amuse themselves or enjoy a bit of quiet time.

Not really no. We are not talking about a toddler happy amusing themselves while you potter round the kitchen or do a few chores. He was alone for 2.5 hours!

My d would of been happy playing by herself for 2 hours with a couple of saucepans and a wooden spoon. Or I would put dora the bloody explorer/wonder pets and she would be transfixed for as long as the tv was on for.

But did you leave her totally alone in a seperate room while she did this? If not how would you know she would have been happy doing so?

OHforDUCKScake Sun 25-Nov-12 15:06:02

Nail on the head from previous poster, its the lack of human interaction that gets me. I think I just want my ds to know where I am in case he needs me. I want him to feel secure in the knowledge that someone is there, that he can see.

I suppose my ds is demanding in some ways, but someone said a parent admits to doing anything to get a good nights sleep, its not that is it? Its a lie in. If you are having bad nights, go to bed earlier. I have to go to bed at 7.30 2 nights a week and 9pm others to survive the hell which are night times. I just wouldnt leave my child in another room while I slept. I couldnt relax enough to sleep anyway.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 15:09:49

I would wonder what all those who are so concerned about children having human interaction are doing on mumsnet and not interacting with your children! I do hope they are all napping and not being ignored.

A few hours entertaining themselves isn't going to cause any issues and is probably better than an over tired mum with no energy to do anything!

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 15:10:15

katiecubs - chances are he dozed at some point in those 2.5 hours. My DS will regularly play for an hour in the morning before calling for me, and sometimes for 2 hours in the afternoon and has done since about 20 months.

My DS knows that someone is there and will come when he calls, even if he can't see them hmm Maybe he is a genius?

PurpleGentian Sun 25-Nov-12 15:15:42

My DS often had a short nap when he was in his playpen. The playpen came with a padded mat that fitted in the bottom of it, so softer than the floor. I usually just popped a blanket over him so he could sleep undisturbed if I saw him sleeping.

I also think it's likely that the OP's DS napped during this 2.5hrs in the playpen. And given the baby monitor, the OP would presumably have heard if her DS started crying for her.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 15:23:59

Not really no. We are not talking about a toddler happy amusing themselves while you potter round the kitchen or do a few chores. He was alone for 2.5 hours!

But he's no more alone whilst mummy potters in the kitchen than alone when mummy naps on her bed/sofa.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 15:27:18

Sam i didn't say i was concerned about the neglect angle. i'm sure he was safe and of course he would have called out if he wanted/needed something.

I am more concerned that he didn't call out and was totally happy on his own in a confined space for such a long period of time. He may have fallen asleep (we will never know as he was alone) but the OP does not suggest this as an option and says he is reguarly happy for an hour in the same situation.

If it was me i would get this checked out as it raises red flags.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 15:30:40

Titty without going into specifics about the layouts of peoples houses and locations of playpens i would have assumed people to take from this statement that it is one thing a toddler to amuse themselves while they can see and hear you and another when you are fast asleep out of sight in another room!

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 15:32:22

Yes katie she was, I was at college then so she would of amused herself in the living room while my head was stuck in textbooks at the kitchen table. I also like hour long soaks in the bath, she would happily amuse herself then to. And she never cried in the morning to get out of her cot she would babble away to herself until I got her up. But of course thats abandoment and neglect.

Maybe it is to do with brightness as someone else said, my dd is the top of the top set in everything in school not a child genius taking gcse at 11 but very very clever.

lexiss Sun 25-Nov-12 15:36:12

He might have had a nap, I hadn't thought of that. The playpen is over carpet and had a cushion in it as well.

I am usually a fairly light sleeper, so I don't think he was crying.

When I went to him he was happily playing with his toys. He didn't look upset at all.

Those saying it is a cage, do you not use a cot then? That is similar to a cage as well.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 15:37:59

Hysterical nonsense
Nothing based in fact
Child cages and abandonment ffs.

A child will not be damaged by a bit of free play and snoozing for a couple of hours.
A child who is otherwise cared for and loved will not suffer attachment sues from being placed in a play pen.

People who call them baby cages are showing off what super mamas they are.
I could give you a dozen reasons why people have them.
The main one being the desire to keep their child safe
To give the child their own space (not all children enjoy being hovered over)
Because their are animals in the house
Because the parent has a disability
Because there are older siblings in the house
Because there are elderly relatives in the house
Because the arents want to keep the garden doors open
Because the baby wants a safe space in the garden
because the house has certain features that are impossible to baby proof
Because the child has disabilities
Because of inadequate housing I.e. bedsit
Because they are useful, practical and not harmful

I am sure others can think of more.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 15:39:49

Are you speaking to me Brandy? I never said anything about abandonment or neglect you see so i am confused?

I still think the situations you describe are differant to the one OP does, i.e you were not asleep, it was not for as long and i assume you checked on your DD from time to time and interacted with her?

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 15:43:43

I don't think it raises flags
Not on it's own.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 15:43:47

OP if you think he probably had a nap you have nothing to worry about. You obviously know your child and his behavior much better than anyone else so just go with your own gut feelings.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 15:44:25

I don't interact with my DS while he is in his room before I get him up. When he was in a baby cage cot he would play happily with a few toys and books for up to an hour before calling for me - that's a confined space too. What red flags is that raising?

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 15:46:27

Katie you bolded my last statement

My d would of been happy playing by herself for 2 hours with a couple of saucepans and a wooden spoon. Or I would put dora the bloody explorer/wonder pets and she would be transfixed for as long as the tv was on for.

But did you leave her totally alone in a seperate room while she did this? If not how would you know she would have been happy doing so?

I was answering you and yes you did say this was not normal behaviour.

I know this has descended rather but I cannot get over these children who can be left alone for long periods. I can't leave DD (2yo) or five minutes. She doesn't like it and will get into trouble. envy

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 15:51:57

Mrsterry if it's any consolation my ds was nothing like my dd and was a complete terror, although not clingy to the point I couldn't have a bath in peace.

OP I think you should try gina ford sleep training cc then you will wake up after a lovely 8hr sleep.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 15:52:14

2.5 hrs !!!! Oh come on what 17 month old can play that long? My DS used to play incredibly well on his own, everyone would remark on it, he would set up 'worlds' with plastic characters interacting and talking at 2.5 and could do so for an hour but in comparison to his peers he was very advanced in doing this. He could also do 40 piece puzzles on his own and have the concentration to do so but I just don't believe a 17 month old could entertain themselves for 2.5 hrs without having been left in this pen for long periods before. 2.5 hrs awake MUST have left him wondering whether you would return. It is not extreme neglect but there are degrees of neglect. I don't think it's right to leave a child in a room with a gate on either. Both seem very sad situations.

Every parent I know bar one has got up at 6 to start the day if that's when their toddler rises. It is not night- Ffs what indulgent lives a lot of you must lead. My DP regular has to leave at 6.30 if he is commuting to London. I see loads of people walking past my kitchen window at that time to the station. I did it myself for 2.5 years- shock, horror, 6 is sometimes the start of the day for some!

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 15:52:24

Er there is a huge differance between 'up to an hour' and 2.5 hours.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 15:53:28

Er I said 2, stop trying to pick things out and twist them around you know bloody well what I'm saying.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 15:55:48

From 20ish months he would play for up to 2 hours if he didn't nap.

Anyway, as has been said he probably went back to sleep for a bit between 6am and 8am.

It's "indulgent" not to get up at 6am? What a weird way of looking at life. I don't care if some people have a long commute, I don't - so why would I get up at 6am if I didn't have to?

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 15:56:31

I would imagine the GF book and the Lazy CC has been done already in this scenario. The big tell tale signs being a 17 month old not objecting to their 2 1/2hrs in isolation!

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 15:57:29

Oh and I have never done CC or left DS to cry smile

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 15:58:29

It is weird to think 6 am is the night? It is NOT the night. It is the time a lot of people HAVE to get up.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 15:58:41

Yeah my life is one long party.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 15:59:58

Some people have to get up at 5am, some people work night shifts - so? I didn't have to get up at 3am, 4am, 5am, 6am, so I didn't confused

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 15:59:59

Another one of the 'weird things to be smug about' spreadsheet
WTTBSA for short.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 16:01:06

But MrsDeVere, it is indulgent to get up later than anyone else, ever.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:01:22

If your toddler has slept all night and they are ready to get up at 6 then that would be the reason you have to get up.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 16:02:23

*Brandy i was talking to sam not you!

to your comments i said that if you left your dd alone totally unchecked for 2 hours yes i think this is very wrong. If you checked in on her then this is totally differant.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 16:02:46

You do know that not having enough sleep is not very good for you, don't you? I can link you to any number of studies on this. Yes, inevitably the first few months of your babies' lives almost always mean not getting enough of the stuff, but you are raising your risk of all kinds of conditions, including heart disease and stroke, if you go on for year after year without much of it.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 16:02:49

What if they are ready to get up at 5am, or 4am Goldenbear?

Instead of WTTBSA MrsDV can you start one called WTIDCABOD? Weird things I don't care about but others do. Waking times, how much you wash your towels, ironing underwear, subjects that people on MN spend time and energy thinking about... weirdly.

I am also envy of people whose toddlers sleep past 5am 6am.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 16:04:53

DD2 went through a phase of waking at 5am. Oh god it was shuddersome.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:05:06

You are indulging you're own needs and not placing your babies above yours.

It is not smug to respond to your child's needs surely? 6 am is not 3 am it is the morning so why not respond to your child accordingly?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 16:07:14

Why does a child need to get up at 6am but not 3am Goldenbear?

I don't think 6am is a reasonable time to get up, I am therefore responding to DS's need to get enough sleep by ensuring he is not getting up at 6am.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 16:08:53

I must be a much better mommy than everyone else then.
I get up before my kids.

I'll have a pink ribbon with that medal please

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:11:03

Mrs, your posting on a thread about a sleeping mother and supposedly things that you don't care about - do you not see the irony there?

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 16:12:33

but how can a toddler hear and see you if your not in the same room? If my ds is playing in his playpen in the family room and im pottering about in the kitchen then he's neither going to see me nor hear me. Are you suggesting that you should be in the same room as your dc at all time? Personally i don't see any difference, if i know my son is safe in his playpen then im happy to be in another room of my house, where i cant hear/see him and vice versa.

Not really. I care about leaving children alone I just don't think that whether you get up at 4am, 6am or 8am has any bearing on your moral fibre.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 16:16:46

No irony.
I am posting on a thread about things I do care about.
Hysteria and the minimisation of real neglect and abuse.
People trying to impose their lifestyles on others and making ridiculous accusations to do it.

Do you know what irony means? smile

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 16:17:59

Fgs.
Mrsterry
Can't you change your name or something hmm

I wasted five seconds posting that...tsk

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:19:40

3 am would be considered in the middle of the night by most. 6 am is CATEGORICALLY not the night it's the morning. It is nothing to do with NIGHT. You therefore respond appropriately. A toddler can get enough sleep and wake up at 6. A few posts back your concern was your sleep now you've changed your tune to say it's your concern for your toddler's sleep.

I'm not sure why people post unfunny, irrelevant comments about medals and spreadsheets. I don't agree with you, like others don't, haven't - deal with it.

valiumredhead Sun 25-Nov-12 16:19:53

Ds was always up at 5.30 - 6 ish, it was hell but he was asleep by 7pm so by then he was ready to get up.

By 17 months ds could hoik his leg over the cot so he was in a bed by then. He would've have been able to get out of a play pen too hence my comment about if you are desperate for a snooze then kipping on the sofa is probably better.

At that age I had a quick shower and went to the loo by myself while he played, he was never interested in coming in with me, so he was used to playing by himself.

Also as a nanny who has seen too many over stimulated children and children who were never able to play by themselves, amusing himself was something I was keen to develop in ds.

Whatever, MrsDV. Three snaps in a z formation. grin

I think people should type our names formally. Also, MrsTP, which I get a lot makes me think of toilet paper.

oohlaalaa Sun 25-Nov-12 16:20:09

Well according to my mum, when she was younger most parents had play pens, and picking up/ cuddling/ stimulating / playing with baby most of the day is a new style parenting. She was too busy working on the farm with my dad. Apparently she'd wrap us up warm when babies and put the pram in calf shed as she fed the calves. When she did the bookwork we were in the playpen. We had to fit in with her day.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 16:21:19

Titty not i am not suggesting that - where did i say that?!

I said you should not leave your child totally alone for 2.5 hours. If i left my child in a seperate room (which i frequently do) i would a, leave the door open so they could hear me and b, check on them reguarly to make sure they are ok.

I would absolutely never, under any circumstances leave them along for 2.5 hours without checking on them but maybe that's just me! At the most basic of levels i just would not want to.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 16:21:37

I really disagree that one should always put one's baby's needs/wants first. By 17 weeks, perhaps. By 17 months, no. Surely not.

I matter too.

tittytittyhanghang Sun 25-Nov-12 16:25:26

Well i leave my ds up to ten hours alone. On another level of the house. With the doors closed. And don't check on him once. So there.

thebody Sun 25-Nov-12 16:27:17

Oohlaalaa, totally correct as my mom said exactly the same.

When all of mine were small we had 'room play' and 'cot play'.

This meant that with the monitors on I could sit down for an hour with a cuppa and a magazine and I survived motherhood.

I wouldn't have slept tho except if I was absolutely knackered or ill and if that was the case I would bring the playpen into my room.

Absolutely nothing wrong with his time in the playpen op IMO, he's safe and with age appropriate toys(presumably) but think you shouldn't be sleeping.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:31:23

Moral fibre - wtf? It is funny to say 6 am is the night? It sounds quite provincial I suppose and a bit precious. A bit precious for a fully grown adult to fret over getting up in the MORNING. In this post not getting up has every relevance to the child being left for 2.5 hrs so I suppose there is a moral angle to not getting up- do you want to add that to your spreadsheet (Ffs)?

MrsDeVere, I have an English Literature degree so I do understand 'irony' thanks. Do you understand, shades of grey when it comes to thinking about things or is it all black and white?

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 16:34:44

6AM is still night in my house. I get up in the week 7:30 and thats hard enough( and thats before my dc wake up) , I actually have no idea what time they get up on a weekend as they know not to disturb me before 9. Meh I don't care if your "moral" people who open the curtains before 7 think that is wrong.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 16:37:20

Er...isn't it literally more provincial to have to get up at 6am to commute into London? (Irony, much, eh grin?)

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 16:39:12

Most adults I know object to getting up at 6am. 6.30, perhaps one starts feeling there might be a reason, mainly if you have a loooooong journey in for an early start or you want to go swimming/running before work. Only in the alternative world of Impeccable Parenting With A Special Self-Denying Ordinance does it become precious to object to being forced awake.

katiecubs Sun 25-Nov-12 16:39:16

Stupid comment titty so i won't bother to respond.

Retiring from this thread now as the real issue is getting completely lost.

If you think it's normal to leave your toddler alone in the daytime for 2.5 hours without checking in on them then i think it's a real shame for both you and your child. End of.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:42:10

Motherinferior, yes 17 months what an age? iMO parents shouldn't be bored of putting a 1 year old's needs first?

My mother never left us in a cage in the 70's. DP's mother gated off the hallway and had baths and read her book for 2 hrs whilst DP played with his baby brother. Generally her children ALWAYs had to fit into her life. She is still very selfish and they are not particularly close, they both call her selfish to this day and she has no worries about that - I think that's odd and sad.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 16:42:13

6am is night time in my house Goldenbear - I wanted DS to run to the same routine as the rest of the household, so we didn't treat 6am as getting up time because in my house it isn't. If 6am starts work for you then great, but for me - no. DS's bedtime used to be about 9pm (because that's what worked for us too!), so a 6am wake up was not enough sleep for any of us.

Of all the bizarre things to feel morally superior about, getting up early!

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 16:42:45

Thats Your Opinion katie not the end of.

My worry would be that my toddler would find a way to climb out of the playpen, open the door and wander off into the street/get into difficulties while you're asleep. Being knackered is part and parcel of the job of parenting.

As I said upthread - I'm a big fan of playpens for keeping my DD safe (talking the BIG ones) whilst I do housework. My house is a decent size and I can hear her unless the washer/vacuum/dishwasher is on no matter where I am, because I leave all the doors open.

I don't have an issue with the 2.5 hour thing, as long as the parent pops in and out interacting with the child and making sure they are ok. I do have a problem with the sleeping thing, and the sleeping in another room.

People have said that this isn't neglectful. I said in my previous post that IF something happened then it would be viewed as neglect. I'm not hysterical, as a parent of a child who does play alone merrily for decent periods of time I am happy that she does and I allow her to. But I check - sometimes through the crack between the door and the frame.

So... to the people who think sleeping in another room whilst your toddler plays alone in a playpen is not neglectful....

Headline of tomorrows paper:

Toddler in hospital after seriously injuring himself in home.

Toddler, X months, was rushed into hospital with severe injuries following an incident at home. It is thought that the child fell/scalded self/pulled heavy item down on head after climbing out of his playpen.

His mother was asleep in another room at the time, having returned to bed after placing her child in the pen. When questioned she said "I was tired, and I had the monitor on."

The child remains in a serious but stable condition. It is not yet known whether the injuries he has sustained will cause permanent damage.

I know that if this was in the paper the "mum" would be absolutely villified on here. She would be up there with the worst parents in the world and ripped to absolute pieces and we all know it.

But - because nothing has happened yet in the exact same situation the idea that this is neglectful behaviour has been completely pooh-poohed. The only difference is the OPs child didn't get out of the playpen.

Yeah - right.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 16:55:10

I don't think anyone is in raptures about getting up at that time but to be adamant that you are not because it is the night and you need your sleep...well that's precious, grow up, find some stamina and realise that actually a lot of people are up at that time as IT IS the morning.

thebody Sun 25-Nov-12 16:57:06

Yep coola for me it's not the playpen as these are invaluable for keeping a child safe, and in my case keeping a baby safe from a curious toddler.

For me it's the going back to bed and sleeping in a different room.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 16:57:22

Lots of people are up at 5am too, what difference does that make?

Really, if there is no need to get up at 6am why would you? confused It makes no sense!

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 17:00:06

I don't in ANY way feel morally superior about getting up at 6. You however do seem to have feelings of moral inferiority because you refuse to respond to your toddler's needs. Why is that, why do you feel I'm saying I'm a better parent than you, you must have some serious self doubts about your parenting style.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 17:01:00

6am may be the morning, but it's early morning so I am not getting up unless I really need to. Why would anyone?

My body clock is set to wake up at around 7am. Any earlier than that I feel knackered all day. If DS wakes before 7 he plays in his room, perfectly happily perfectly safely

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 17:01:27

Getting up at 6am is not a "need" confused

VeryProbablyStupid Sun 25-Nov-12 17:05:14

I havent read the whole of this thread yet, but I am shocked that someone would think it was ok to leave their child alone anywhere for the reason that they fancied some more sleep.

Parents are tired. Drink some coffee like everyone else or get someone else to watch DC while you sleep. I have never known an adult that cant get through a day without a nap. And leaving your small child unattended to do so is very selfish.

GothAnneGeddes Sun 25-Nov-12 17:07:11

This thread is amazing!

Abandonment!

Indulgence

Fantasy news tragedies!

The most overt public displays of martyrdom since nearly 2000 years ago!

The assumption that unless you are an aforementioned martyr, you won't have a close relationship with your children when they're older!

Diagnosis of special needs via the internet!

Hahahaha!

This thread is hysterical, absolutely hysterical. WTAF is the difference between what the OP did and waking up at 6am, going into their room and feeding them, leaving them in their cot and going back to bed and going in to get them up for the day at 8.30am?

Absolutely nothing, that's what.

i co-sleep with my 4yo and my 10mo. neither of them have ever spent a single night in their own cot/bed and even i can't see a problem with this.

The smell of burning martyr on this thread is overwhelming.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Sun 25-Nov-12 17:08:10

Goldenbear, but that is exactly what you are saying when you accuse someone of putting their needs above their child's needs by not springing out of bed when the baby wakes. You are saying that because you get up at 6am when your toddler wakes then your parenting is better. You may not have used those specific words but it's obvious to anyone with half a brain cell that's what you were implying.

I don't have any children but when I do someone please remind me not to ask advice on Mumsnet; because although there are lots of people who give helpful advice, there are always people like you ready to be smug, self righteous and judgemental.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 25-Nov-12 17:09:22

Sorry Goldenbear, not in this house either.

I must have missed the royal edict that was issued telling me what time I have to get up.

My kids sleep in at weekends. Always have. I have to wake them every morning for school. (and yes, they are in bed at a reasonable time before you accuse me of keeping them up till all hours)

Do you reckon I should go in and shake them awake at 6am on a Sunday morning because staying in bed later than that is somehow spineless and lacking in stamina.

6am suits you. Great. It doesn't suit me or my family.

DreamingOfTheMaldives Sun 25-Nov-12 17:11:45

Very probably stupid - do you not leave your child alone in its bedroom at night while you sleep?! You selfish person you.

If it wakes you at 3am and is wide awake, do you not put it back in bed so you can go back to sleep???

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 17:13:48

Well it is if the toddler wants to NATURALLY get up in the MORNING. If your child is happy to play on its own for an hour until coincidentally the parents want to get up then there must have been some training done at some point where they were ignored. Personally, I feel their need to have company, you know of their parents and not be stuck in their cot for an hour on their own should be met.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 25-Nov-12 17:16:06

My 9yo got up and made her own breakfast and milk and cleared it away before I even woke this morning. I await a call from SS

VeryProbablyStupid Sun 25-Nov-12 17:16:24

Yes, but he is asleep. In his bed. It is totally different than getting him up for the day then pissing off back to bed because you're too lazy to get up when your child gets up.

I'm not jumping on the bandwagon of people calling this neglect etc because basically OPs child was fine, and nothing happened.

But putting your child to bed at night and leaving him alone there is a completely different situation than leaving him alone to have a nap. Which you dont need. Its the same as thinking 'oh, i fancy going out in the garden to sunbathe for two hours without having to parent my child, so ill just chuck him in the play pen while i indulge myself'.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 17:16:28

The need to have company every second of the day?

DS is in a bed not a cot does that make me 'ignoring' and 'abandoning' him ok?

How can you judge anyone else on their parenting, or accuse them of ignoring their child when you know nothing? DS loves playing on his own, he quiet often 'cooks' breakfast for me on his toy kitchen which we eat together before going downstairs.

he is happy, I am happy yet you feel the need to judge? Are you really such a perfect parent you can pass judgement on others?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 17:16:39

My DS has never been left to cry hmm If he woke before 7am he either came into bed with us or stayed in his cot and played with toys/books until getting up time, depending on his age. Now at 27 months he will quite often play in his room for an hour before calling for us.

Goldenbear, not everyone has very demanding children - some are happy to play alone and not be entertain every second of the day.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 17:17:29

BitOutOfPractice You now need to get her trained to bring you breakfast in bed!

I cannot understand why anyone thinks its ok to leave a toddler alone downstairs for 2.5hours while sleeping upstairs. If someone more enlightened can tell me why this is ok id appreciate it.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 17:20:40

I think almost every has said that the OP would be better sleeping on the sofa in the same room in future wewereherefirst.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 25-Nov-12 17:20:50

Sirzy, she brought me coffee when I woke and rang my bell

Floggingmolly Sun 25-Nov-12 17:23:27

It's not just the safety aspect, though, is it? Two and a half hours of no interaction whatsoever isn't particularly good for his development, whether he seems to accept it placidly or not.

...leaving him alone to have a nap. Which you dont need.

but she very obviously did need it it, very badly if she has sleep problems and slept for 2.5hrs.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 17:25:50

Floggingmolly - really, 2.5 hours without interaction will impact on a child's development? I didn't interact with DS for 2 hours yesterday afternoon - is he damaged now?

valiumredhead Sun 25-Nov-12 17:27:21

I bet the child had a sleep, I doubt very much a 17 month old would be happy about being on his own for 2.5 hours.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 17:27:54

Dreamingofthemaldives, yes I guess that us what I am saying - Of course I think my opinion is correct as do those who are arguing that I'm wrong to have that opinion and they are right in their judgements.

Goth and Gwen rather than your observations what's your actual opinion? I Co sleep to Gwen and I have BF'd my DD for 19 months, my DC are 5.5 and 19 months so my parenting experience tops yours.....oh sorry this is all totally irrelevant to the the thread- just saying!

Floggingmolly Sun 25-Nov-12 17:28:39

I mean on a regular basis. Op seemed to be checking out was this an ok thing to continue to do.

Many people have sleep problems and manage to not make the conscious decision to go to bed leaving a child unattended, most I presume would sleep on the sofa/floor with the child nearby.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 17:31:10

Jesus goldenbear you have real issues about being challenged don't you.
Thanks for the CV though. That put me in my place.
Teach a mere pleb like me to question the likes of you won't it?

no

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 17:31:11

wewereherefirst - what if you child woke at 6am, you breastfed them and put them back in their cot and then went back to bed until 8.30am. Is it ok to leave a child unattended in those circumstances?

thebody Sun 25-Nov-12 17:31:51

Children should be able to play alone for a while. They don't learn to discover or imagine otherwise.

It's not good parenting IMO to spend every minute of their waking time being played with and entertained. How suffocating.

Makes for some very needy spoilt, clingy children and later needy clingy entitled adults.

BitOutOfPractice Sun 25-Nov-12 17:33:49

Goldenbear, you sound un bear ably smug (see what I did there?)

Seriously, if co-sleeping and BF work for you, then knock yourself out. But labelling another mother who choses to parent differently and telling her she needs to "grow a pair" etc just makes you sound like an insufferable twat. Sorry, but it does.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 17:33:56

golden I have put my children's needs before mine in ways I hope you never have to experience.
Ever.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 17:34:02

But Golden your opinion is only based on your children. How can you possibly judge what works for other families? To start accusing parents of ignoring the needs of their child simply because they have a different approach to you is down right rude surely you can see that?

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 17:34:54

Especially when we're talking about an imaginary "need" to get up at 6am grin

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 17:38:07

A pleb, wtf are you on about, you don't even know my background? Just because you have the rallying mob behind you, you feel assured in being sarcastic and mocking with your spreadsheet talk. You have the majority behind you on this so why are you feeling victimised? I don't give a shit about being challenged because I'm quite capable of delivering my own opinion without back up even if I'm in a minority.

Sam- for my DC's and I that wouldn't be done they'd never have been fucking quiet enough to stay there

GothAnneGeddes Sun 25-Nov-12 17:40:48

Ooooh, someone used block capitals, so we know the truth is being spoken.
However, I didn't know that bfing and co-sleeping made you the Queen of All Mothers. You learn something new every day.

I bf and Co-sleep part time, can I be a queen too? grin

I bf and Co-sleep part time, can I be a queen too? grin

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 17:50:35

Oh do calm down. You are getting all het up about some imaginary mob.
If people disagreed they would say so and have done.
I don't actually know these people you know.
And accusing me of only disagreeing with you because I have back up is pretty egocentric.
I think you are wrong.
I get to say so.
You are very defensive when challenged a reach for the nearest 'bad parent stick' to hit people with.

When you have been a 24 hour Carer for a terminally ill child at the same time as fostering a baby with special needs you come back and tell me about putting the child's needs first.

I may take you a little bit more seriously then.

All this hysteria about getting up at 6am ffs. Try not sleeping for weeks on end whilst being a full time Carer.

Makes cosleeping and attachment parenting seem fucking Laissez faire

But no doubt this is me being a nasty bully.

altinkum Sun 25-Nov-12 17:52:49

In wouldn't do it full stop, and everything in me is shouting that your being irresponsible, but its you're child, but to me, it's wrong.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 17:57:47

See that poster doesn't agree with me.

releases the hounds

altinkum Sun 25-Nov-12 17:57:52

Am I the only one that noticed golden ear, that MrsDeVer (hello by the way) wasn't calling golden bear a pleb!!! Or is goldenbear so high in her superiority in her parenting skills that she cannot read???

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Sun 25-Nov-12 18:00:46

DS wakes up most mornings and I put Sesame St or similar on, he plays with his teddies and then wakes me up again about an hour-hour and a half later. He's happy like this and sometimes goes for another nap.

His bed is right beside mines though and I wake back up at the slightest noise.

2.5 hours in a different room wouldn't sit right with me and I don't think that's right. I don't know why, but it feels a bit neglectful, I would probably think different if he was beside you.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 18:03:33

I was suggesting I was a superior mum because I BFd. I was using sarcasm to point out how people make irrelevant points on these threads. Banging on about hysteria and Martyrdom because I DON'T AGREE WITH you - you don't agree with me what's the fucking difference?

TheCountessOlenska Sun 25-Nov-12 18:07:53

I haven't read this whole thread but . . . a child that plays safely on it's own for 2.5 hours?

you jammy sod.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 18:10:00

But didn't you get annoyed with me for being sarky?

And I haven't used the word martyr have I?

Plenty of hysteria on this thread though.

It's almost like this Op's question is being hijacked by posters who want to prove that they care more about thier children than anyone else does.

They don't. They have different styles and beliefs.

One thing is for sure though. Leaving a child in a safe and stimulating environment for a couple of hours is not classed as neglect.
Whether you would do it or not.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 18:11:38

I mean wasn't Opps!

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Sun 25-Nov-12 18:11:54

Right okay, I guess I do agree it's not neglect.

I think it's just the thought of them in another room on their own for that long and at 17 months could possibly climb the playpen.

I would probably think different if I was used to DS sleeping in another room, I am biased.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 18:15:43

That was a cross post schro so not directed at you smile
I agree that I would not go to a separate room. That seems a bt unnecessary to me.

But most posters have said that and I think the op as got the message.

When it's your first, specially if you have no friends with babies, it's not always easy to work stuff out.
I think anyhow

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Sun 25-Nov-12 18:19:56

Oh okay. smile

I completely agree with what you say about first babies. I atm only have DS but before him I had never even held a baby. It is very hard to work out what you are meant to be doing! smile

Violet77 Sun 25-Nov-12 18:26:03

Back to the thread...mummy jobs in the way :-)

I don't think that you can compare a cot to a playpen. A cot you sleep in, you wake and you get up and out of the cot. ( in my house anyway)

My god i must be a martyr, i always had mine with me at that age. I showered they showered, i cleaned they cleaned. I didn't feel the need to stimulate them every second but i wouldn't have just left them in another room. That's why you need a playpen to leave them alone for long periods of time?

I also worry about children that are so content to do so little. It's because mine are such active, interested children. I can't get my head around leaving them, they would have done dangerous stuff. A friends child could be left in her pram for long periods of time..she would always say how lucky she was, what a good child she was. I was really worried about her, developmentally she was miles behind my son. she just stared into space a lot :-(

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 18:29:00

Children are different

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 18:30:35

And I have given a long list of reasons why people have playpens.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 18:31:31

Surely part of raising an 'active interested' individual is giving them chances to discover things for themselves and play alone?

If they follow you constantly then that could easily restrict their chances to do that

Floggingmolly Sun 25-Nov-12 18:39:57

What will they discover stuck in a playpen, Sirzy? (I agree in principle, btw)

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Sun 25-Nov-12 18:40:48

How to entertain themselves?

FamiliesShareGerms Sun 25-Nov-12 18:44:39

Being left to play with (checked) safe toys is not neglect, FFS. It might not be a parenting style you might want to copy (2.5 hours with zero interaction isn't great), but there is some real hysteria on here tonight, isn't there? Neglect??

<wonders off to work out why neither of mine can occupy themselves for 2.5 hours...>

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 18:51:27

I didn't have a playpen, they are just cages for small children. I made the house safe. Why do people need them?

Seriously? It's a safe space to deposit a child so you can have a shower, go to the loo etc in peace. I lived in a rented house so it was not possible to make it completely safe, therefore the very large playpen was required.

Marzipanface Sun 25-Nov-12 18:52:07

Jesus! The OP has pointed out that this has only happened ONCE!

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 18:52:55

I am so fed up with this 'live with being exhausted, that is your lot as a parent' bloody mantra which gets trotted out all the bloody time on MN. It isn't good for you.

My playpen is known as a baby cage, it keeps the wild animals in and also gives DS1 the chance to play with a toy or two without being chewed/thrown etc...

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 18:56:33

No I whole heartedly agree MInferior it is not good to be run down and exhausted and be a martyr to it. It is not good to survive on 2 hours sleep because you won't put the baby down/give it to someone else. you will not get a medal or thanks from a 18yr old saying thanks mum for never putting me in a playpen.

FamiliesShareGerms Sun 25-Nov-12 18:57:53

I got round the need for a playpen when they were little by shipping them off to nursery, bad mother that I am smile

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 18:59:09

And you may have done yourself lasting damage during that time too. I kind of want to be around when my children are older. My decent nights' sleep are purely for their benefit, obviously - I am a far-thinking slave to their needs wink

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 18:59:09

I just used a stout rope

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 18:59:48

You don't need a play pen for a child to learn how to play on it's own.

2.5 hrs playing on their own - such a long time for a 17.5 month old.

I have 2 children that happily play on their own. I don't see what enforced isolation has to do with teaching that.

I had a friend who did CC and would put her baby in the cot at 7, he would babble to himself for an hour at night and an hour in the morning because he had learnt things weren't going to change. He wasn't out enough in the day and had long,long naps and as a result couldn't sleep at 7. Like the poster's friend above he was the most developmentally delayed- he was the last to crawl, the last to walk and he was socially awkward, sat on his mum's lap all the time even at 4. I don't think this was a coincidence.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:00:27

Exactly you wouldn't want to be so tired you get haggered and they won't be seen with you!

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 19:01:31

Actually I went back to work when mine were four months old (and before you start with the pitchforks, I was self-employed without any maternity pay beyond SMP and my savings, and I earned more than Mr Inferior during that period) thus assuring plenty of Stimulation and Care for my PFB and her sister. But obviously that did involve terrible things like removing myself from my children's needy presence.

LDNmummy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:01:34

OP I understand where you are coming from as my DD is not a heavy sleeper and regularly wakes at night. Last night she woke up for two hours before wanting to go back to sleep.

What I do is have her cot bed next to my own. When she wakes up and I am still exhausted I put her in there with some large toys (no choking hazard) and rest next to her in bed. If she doesn't want to be in the cot bed, I put her right on my bed. This is even better as I can feel her moving around. I nap or rest but don't fully fall asleep. This way I can get a little bit more rest while still knowing she is OK.

The only thing I would say was wrong with what you did is that you weren't in the same room and you were actually sleeping.

I do close my eyes to rest, but I am a light sleeper so I know I wouldn't fall into a deep sleep.

But, you are not a monster so don't let anyone make you feel like you have done something reprehensible.

Sleep deprivation could lead to a much more unsafe environment for your child. If you are sleepy and groggy all the time after months of sleeplessness, you might not be on the ball enough to provide the safe environment your child needs all the time.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 19:04:32

I hesitate to disagree with you because i cba with the backlash
But
I work in the local child development team.
If a child is developmentally delayed it is important to give them extra stimulation.
But an hour or two in a cot or playpen would not cause developmental delay in normally developing child.

Even if it happened every day.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:04:51

Well ancedotal evidence isn't reliable GB, both my dd were advanced and that was with a routine where they had there last bottle at 6 and I didn't need to do cc because they would just drop off. They were both sleeping 8 hrs straight at 4 and 6 weeks without sleeptraining.

Oh and by advanced I don't mean genius's I mean walking at 8 months social skills better then average and always top from nursery.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 19:06:20

And yet I have a child who is not developmentally delayed, walked at 11 months, is very active, was never left to cry, and will play by himself, alone, in a room for 2 hours.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 19:06:26

Late walking is not, in itself, a sign that Things Are Wrong. It's just a sign of late walking.

DD1 didn't get off her pretty little tush till 17 months. Dreadfully slow, she was. She's now 11 and quite frightfully good at walking. Oh, and she's rather bright academically too.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:10:19

Oh well if Goldenbear has one example then that must be true mustn't it.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 19:10:33

In fact, I have no idea now when her mates started walking either. It's not the kind of thing you ask about confused

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:10:49

So maybe we can all agree playpens for a hour or so regularly do not harm the development of a baby? And a one off 2:5 hours will not have any lasting effect? I hope so other wise my dd will be fucked I had a d&v bug when she was about 9months old so spent the whole day in the playpen while I layed on the sofa/head down the toilet.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 19:11:02

5 kids
All had playpens
One significantly developmentally delayed.
4 not.

I'm thinking it was the actual neglect and the genetic stuff rather than the Baby Dan

hazeyjane Sun 25-Nov-12 19:15:05

goldenbear, you don't know anything about developmental delay.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 19:17:39

The thing is, that in the real world
(a) parenting small children is really, really hard and most of the time it is pretty damn exhausting
(b) we all do stuff, from early babyhood on, that gets parenting wrong in some way, and the important thing is to try and minimise that getting-it-wrong
(c)going without sleep drives you more than slightly bananas (which is why it is used as a form of torture)
(d) parenting goes on for bloody ages, see point (b) above, and you have to kind of work it out as you go along.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 19:18:48

He wasn't developmentally delayed but he was the last to do achieve certain milestones. He just always seemed a bit sad, vacant I suppose. I just felt sorry to him being on his own, sitting up talking to himself for an hour, before he slept and when he woke up.

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

ChippingInLovesAutumn Sun 25-Nov-12 19:21:05

Oh it just gets funnier by the minute. The martyredom is being incresed by the post grin

Goldenbear, the very idea that a baby is the last of a small group to crawl/achieve 'certain milestones' because he babbled away to himself before going to sleep/upon waking - is just SO offensive!

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 19:22:08

Children are different. Their characters are different. Their interests are different. Their learning styles are different. Surely this isn't news to anyone?

Hence they start to walk at different times. It might be because of developmental delay. It might be because they don't see any point yet. It might be because they don't want to start until they are already confident.
It might be because of chronic under-stimulation. It might be because they really enjoy sitting and playing or "reading".

It is, frankly, ridiculous to draw a straight line link between one 2.5hr session on a playpen and future physical or emotional development delays. Poor OP - ignore some of this weird stuff... (And poor Goldenbear's friend for that matter...)

hazeyjane Sun 25-Nov-12 19:24:17

He sounds contented.

You are making assumptions about his social awkwardness and his supposed delayed development being caused by some sort of - what - neglect? lack of parental interaction? being left to entertain himself? Controlled Crying?

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:25:15

DS doesn't babble to himself. He has lovely conversations with his toys though!

SugarplumMary Sun 25-Nov-12 19:26:26

I didn't have a playpen, they are just cages for small children. I made the house safe. Why do people need them?
Some of us go so over board with the child proofing that everything is child safe and you buy a play pen as well just in case blush . It came in useful with subsequent DC - well third TBH when I had 3 people wanting me nonstop at all hours.

Just floor TO SLEEP on. Someone suggested he may have slept. Unless you mean it’s better to use a train as a pillow?
I don't get why letting them sleep on a floor is bad - unless it's a cold concrete floor which I can see would be bad. There have been times when mine had fallen asleep where they are - I made sure they were safe and put a blanket over them. They’ve been fine.

Sleep deprivation could lead to a much more unsafe environment for your child
This I agree with. If you are so tired that you might fall asleep – I can’t see why it’s bad to plan for it. I used to worry when very sleep deprived I’d fall asleep on the sofa bf – a big risk so I’d bf in bed and when I had toddler and baby I’d have toddler in room with us with safe toys and if I feel asleep everyone was safe.

leobear Sun 25-Nov-12 19:35:02

My DD loves babbling before she goes to sleep! She's 2, and she asks to go to bed on the dot of 7, then I hear her yapping away for AGES to her toys etc grin And that "delayed walking" stuff is bollocks - my DD was 18 months, which is still in the NORMAL range of anything from 10-19/20 months!

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 19:35:28

Why is it offensive?

It is equally offensive to imply (like a lot of posters have done) that if you don't leave your child to play on their own for 2 plus hrs you are obviously bringing up a spoilt brat that needs stimulating every second of the day, can't think for themselves, blah, blah blah but because the majorative view on this thread is pro play pen 2 hr isolation, anyone who doesn't agree is fair game to be mocked. sirzy, I used anecdotal references, so did you, what's the difference?

hazeyjane, how do you know I nothing about developmental delays?

My anecdotes are not lies like someone suggested - how odd?? I think this may be though- 'walking at 8 months'?

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:37:13

You used to anecdote to try to suggest that this child being left to entertain himself caused his development to be delayed. That is a pretty big suggestion to make.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 19:37:49

lady anyone who knows about developmental delay will know its crap but I feel your pain.
Trouble is people read a bit about attachement, a bit about the effects of extreme neglect, a bit about how to encourage speech etc in typically developing children....and make up their very own theories.
Add a bit of insecurity about their own parenting styles and/or limited experience with a wide range of children..
Et voila ....judgemental mommas.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:37:58

No one said 2 hour isolation regularly is a good thing, but it is not harmful and neglectful in the long scheme of things as a one off. Get off your high horse golden bear and go and weave some lentils. can tell you have never been a single parent

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 19:39:48

Why is it offensive?

It is equally offensive to imply (like a lot of posters have done) that if you don't leave your child to play on their own for 2 plus hrs you are obviously bringing up a spoilt brat that needs stimulating every second of the day, can't think for themselves, blah, blah blah but because the majorative view on this thread is pro play pen 2 hr isolation, anyone who doesn't agree is fair game to be mocked. sirzy, I used anecdotal references, so did you, what's the difference?

hazeyjane, how do you know I nothing about developmental delays?

My anecdotes are not lies like someone suggested - how odd?? I think this may be though- 'walking at 8 months'?

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 19:41:12

My son walked at 9 mths
I know of several children who have walked around 8-9 mths.

But then I work with children so see both ends of the spectrum

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:41:27

Yes both my dc were how is that odd? I was showing you just because your friend dc didn't hit milestones early it wasn't due to going to sleep at 7 oclock and learning to amuse itself.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:42:21

Gosh I can take a picture of it being documented at the creshe dd was in if you'd like.

Goldenbear, you ask why it's offensive, then say it's equally offensive to suggest that not leaving DC alone for 2+ hours is creating a spoiled brat.

So, do you agree that it's offensive or not? And if so, why did you say it? Do you like offending people? Do you like feeling smug about your parenting?

I'm quite confident in what I do with my kids - I don't tend to need other people to agree with me and just get on with it, as do most I suppose. I do things quite differently to some of my friends. Some things they do can really surprise me - things I just wouldn't dream of doing with mine. But, I don't think I love my DC more than they love theirs - and I don't think I know better for their children then they do. They probably think I'm bloody awful in some respects (actually I know they do!) but I like to think that they too trust that I can make my own decisions for my children.

So where does your sense of superiority come from?

You think someone lied about their DC walking at 8 months? Why on earth do you think that's a lie?

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:48:47

Its not unusual or unheard of at 8 months or even a big deal.

<must go see what the world record is>

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 19:51:04

No because calling me a lentil weaver is not judgemental is it? No I haven't been a single mum- yet. Can I not have an opinion if I'm not a single mum.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:51:23

the youngest ever walking baby is 6 months. That would be something to be surprised about.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-440202/The-baby-walking--months-old.html

and the little boys so so cute watch the video awww

smithy100 Sun 25-Nov-12 19:51:31

Sorry not read all the comments, if you put him him back in his cot with toys and monitor at 6.30 in the morning what would people think? Ive been into my dd and I'm sure she has been awake for ages but just happy playing (not that much in cot just dolly and teddy). She is just 2, is playpen with monitor not just big cot? As long as toys r safe and you can hear them, he might have a little nap as well smile)

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:52:29

No if you were a single mum I think you would be a lot more sane and a lot less precious about putting your baby down for 5 minutes.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 19:53:04

You can have an opinion on things without judging people simply because their choices are different to yours.

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 19:54:11

You are judgemental
Your 'friend's' baby looked sad?
You did say he was developmentally delayed and you did say it was her fault.

Lentil weaver kind of pales into insignificance compared to that.

Goodness me, didn't realise I was here for questioning. When did MNHQ appoint discussion monitors?

My opinion is that 2.5hrs in a playpen once in a while is not going to harm a child in the slightest. Assuming no special needs a 17 month old is perfectly capable of letting you know if he wants anything. It was in the morning, a time when the op was entitled to be asleep and clearly needed that sleep. Unless I missed something she didn't intend to be asleep that long. It was a safe environment as she states she had already checked the contents of the playpen. Crying neglect and that she's hindering his development in some way is ludicrous.

Now, is that ok?

Ra88 Sun 25-Nov-12 19:57:40

Very wrong IMO ! Same room ok , separate rooms not ok! Also .. Set an alarm ?! Make it so you only have 45minutes - 1 hour . 2.5hrs is far too long !

RabbitsMakeGOLDBaubles Sun 25-Nov-12 19:58:55

Sooooo, have we mentioned gates on bedroom doors yet? Or shall I wait a bit longer before I come in and talk about my style of neglectful "by the seat of my pants" parenting.

natation Sun 25-Nov-12 19:59:12

I walked at 6 months and photos were taken to prove it. It's common in our family, amazed anyone thinks it's Guinness book of records stuff. Ok it's unusual, very unusual but it's not a world first! Own children walked between 9 and 11 months, their dad walked at 17 months so they came in between us.

I think i'd be judged judgmental if I wrote what i though of putting a child so long in a playpen, even worse putting them and going back to bed.

hazeyjane Sun 25-Nov-12 20:00:06

I shouldn't have said 'you know nothing about developmental delays', you could be a developmental paediatrician for all I know, so I am sorry for making that sweeping statement.

I should have said that 'your post displays a complete lack of knowledge about developmental delay'

MrsDeVere Sun 25-Nov-12 20:01:03

I have locks on bedroom doors and kitchen cupboards shock

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:04:01

Well so are you suggesting that people cannot have a clue unless they work with children. You don't need to be a professional to recognise poor parenting, neglectful parenting or even good parenting.

He did often look sad, not very happy, vacant and I think his clinginess was everything to do with CC. He was very clingy after the cc and it definitely prohibited his bravery in trying things.

Goldenbear perhaps you missed my post... or just couldn't be bothered?

Are things only offensive when they suit you?

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:08:28

Well from what you have said you obviously have very little idea as to what poor neglectful parenting is if you think CC crying comes close to being in that category.

(and I say that as someone who doesn't like the idea of CC at all)

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:09:18

Hold on a few posts ago he was happy babbling to himself in cot and pushchair looking a vacant and now he's clingy, come on at least keep your story straight.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:10:38

All these babies walking at 6-9 months. Quite a difference between 6 - 9 months though. It's funny how you never see such young babies walking at baby groups, I would imagine its very, very rare but still lots identified on this thread.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 20:11:43

So based on one example of a child who was quite clingy/vacant/slow and whose parents also tried CC - two things which must, you feel, be linked although you'd have to see a dramatic difference after the CC for even this anecdotal example to stand up - it is a bad thing and probably lastingly detrimental that the OP fell asleep for a couple of of hours?

<head explodes>

Goldenbear, you're focusing a lot on the early walkers some of us have had... has that bent your nose out of shape or what?

Toptack Sun 25-Nov-12 20:12:38

OP, are you still there? (Wouldn't blame you if you've gone home.) Just wanted to say that I had similar insomnia patterns to yours, and got some CBT via my GP which really helped. The sessions took place over the phone, which was a lot easier than having to go for appointments. Also the Paul McKenna book/CD is quite good, although I find his voice a bit creepy.

SamSmalaidh Sun 25-Nov-12 20:13:32

I've seen 9 month olds walking at playgroup, and I walked just before 9 months myself!

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:16:21

There are degrees of neglect and that is where I would place cc for a 5 month old baby. It is what I think, you're going to change that sirzy. Like I don't think a playpen for 2.5 hrs is neglect to the extreme, it is not burning the child's toys in the garden whilst they watch kind of abuse but it's not great IMO - that's the key, IMO not yours or the majority on this thread but IMO which I am allowed to hold.

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:17:59

If you feel that is neglect you have led a very sheltered life. It doesn't come close to being neglectful.

Gentleness Sun 25-Nov-12 20:18:20

Anecdotal this, but also widely accepted: all the children I've been closely involved with have been through clingy stages at some point between 11mo and 18mo. Has your child never been clingy Goldenbear?

hazeyjane Sun 25-Nov-12 20:19:10

If it makes you feel better, dd1 walked at 16 months, dd2 at 21 months and ds at 2 (ish as he still occassionally needed a walker)

there that balances the thread out a bit!

notnow2 Sun 25-Nov-12 20:21:13

Just wow at a baby/ toddler going in a playpen for 2.5 hrs - lucky you. I have 3 dc and 2 minutes would have ended in hysteria !!

Floggingmolly Sun 25-Nov-12 20:21:17

Lots of children walk at 9 months, both my nephews did, but it's not a sign of being developmentally advanced.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:21:50

Both mine walked at 11 months not particularly late or even average in the groups I attended/ attend but MN is like a parallel universe where unbelievable, amazing things happen to people, that conveniently support an argument they are putting forward- funny that?

EdgarAllanPond Sun 25-Nov-12 20:21:58

DSIS walked at 8mo, climbed right of her playpen to do it and all.

I was lazy and quite happy to play all alone for hours gazing at the ceiling.

DM got a break then.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:22:32

It's not a sign of advanced the same as a 18month old is not behind at starting to walk.

EdgarAllanPond Sun 25-Nov-12 20:22:41

"
I was lazy and quite happy to play all alone for hours gazing at the ceiling. "

la plus que change...

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:23:23

You mean like your friend whose son was conveniently developmentally delayed by the neglect of being left in a cot for an hour?

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:23:34

Oh goldenbear it's fine, I am just words on a screen, funny how you don't want to believe me or anyone else who says this as it does not fit with what you want to hear.

Unbelievable and amazing?

SchroSawMummyRidingSantaClaus Sun 25-Nov-12 20:23:58

Mines just started walking, he's just turning 14mo.

motherinferior Sun 25-Nov-12 20:25:16

I really think some of you lot need to get a decent night's sleep whatever it takes and get a sense of perspective on this. And be nicer to the OP.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:25:42

Unbelievable and amazing is not 8 month walking, 6 months is the world record and with a poster saying 6 months was normal in her family I would say 5 months would be Unbelievable and amazing.

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:25:55

Yes my child has been/ DD is currently clingy but this boy has never left that stage.

sirzy, I have not led a sheltered life, you know fuck all about me and you're not going to know more any time soon. I had an opinion that was not yours about a playpen and cc. Why can't you accept I don't agree with you.

formallyknownasloveydarling Sun 25-Nov-12 20:26:18

I also think that is neglect. Please dont get cross with me but i think you should see a doctor. Your poor child. This thread has made me feel really sad. I can't believe some people think this is ok. sad

Sirzy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:27:13

You seem to be the one struggling to accept people with differing opinions. You also seem to be quick to judge people who live their lives differently to you.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:27:29

You don't have to agree but when you expect others to do as you do and judge if they don't there is something controlling and wrong in that.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:28:14

formallyknownasloveydarling are you lovebunny on a nc?

Rudolphstolemycarrots Sun 25-Nov-12 20:29:25

would it be better to wait untill he had a snooze and sleep at the same time?

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:32:34

You should take your own advice. inneedofbrandy, you've called me a lentil weaver (as an insult) and told me my opinion is invalid be ause I'm not a single mum.

sirzy, I have said my opinion- do what you want. If you want to take it is a judgement then do so. I do judge those who do CC it is cruel and shit, lazy parenting.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:34:19

I'm not calling you a bad parent though am I? Iv'e said lentil weaver and precious about your dc but have I called out neglect?

formallyknownasloveydarling Sun 25-Nov-12 20:35:22

@brandy: what makes you say that?

Oh gawd - I've just walked into a bun fight haven't I!

<makes swift exit>

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:35:40

tbh over stimulating and not let a child develop or have any personal space is not a nice thing. Not neglect but not good to live through your dc either.

InNeedOfBrandy Sun 25-Nov-12 20:36:15

You sounded just like her with the dr comment formally grin

Goldenbear Sun 25-Nov-12 20:40:41

I don't do those things i need, I just don't need a playpen to ensure my child plays on their own. I don't do enforced isolation at 1, it's not a parenting technique I've decided to take up!