In thinking that good make-up is deceptive?

(220 Posts)

Well of course it's supposed to be. That's the whole point of it. Even very subtle make-up is worn to make us look prettier, younger, healthier. This morning, I was rushing around trying to get four DCs ready to get two of them to panto rehearsals, and then on to my parents house, yet I 'had' to find the time to put some make-up on.

I've been told that I am pretty, but it is all an illusion. I scare even myself with my bare reflection sometimes. I won't go out of the house without at least some concealer under my eyes, mascara and blusher. It makes me feel weird, almost naked. I would love to have the confidence to go make-up free, but the odd time I have been to work without a full face of slap, I have been questioned about the state of my health.

I have four DDs, and hope that at least one of them doesn't turn out as vain as her mother grin.

LesserOfTwoWeevils Sun 18-Nov-12 17:36:40

I'm like you but worse. The only time I leave the house without at least eyeliner is when I'm dropping my DD to school, and then only if I'm wearing sunglasses.
She's 14 and says she's not going to wear makeup. I am hugely relieved my insecurity/vanity/whatever hasn't rubbed off on her.

Valdeeves Sun 18-Nov-12 17:53:39

I'm the same - always wear make up - I don't feel dressed without it.

MyLittleMiracles Sun 18-Nov-12 17:59:52

I will go out without make up on but i think i look better with it though one person told me not to bother i am fine just how i am I would never go out somewhere important without make up- its just who i am, foundation, macara and eye liner come with me in my bag!

Bumblequeen Sun 18-Nov-12 18:01:33

I wear make up everyday unless I am in the house with no visitors. I started to use make up at 19 and feel less attractive without it.

I like to look good and make up helps to achieve this.

I have heavy bags under my eyes and I am quite conscious of this. Was teased at school for years sad

I wear concealer, powder, eye liner and mascara- probably a lot less than the average 18 year old.

Namechangeforapropertythread Sun 18-Nov-12 18:01:54

I'm the other way. Difficult childhood and never really learnt how to apply make up properly. I'd love to learn how and what bits are the minimum etc.

Mousefunk Sun 18-Nov-12 19:04:47

Ha I second being questioned about health! The few times i've gone out barefaced I get 'ooh are you feeling ok? You look a bit peaky' or someone worrying that i'm feeling low.. I have an olive complexion though, my mum used to think I hadn't washed when I didn't wear make up! shock

Rumplestiltskine Sun 18-Nov-12 19:08:04

The "oooh, are you okay?" comments are why I don't wear makeup every day - if people are used to seeing me looking like a corpse all the time it doesn't come as a shock! grin I'd rather shock people by scrubbing up surprisingly nicely on special occasions.

pjmama Sun 18-Nov-12 19:08:49

Isn't that more likely to be about how people are used to seeing you though, rather than actually looking rough!? If you usually have a full face of make up and then one day go out without it, you look different of course. Doesn't mean you look crap. I have to plaster on a thick layer of stage makeup for my job, so makeing up feels like work to me. I think I look healthier without it.

JamieandtheMagicTorch Sun 18-Nov-12 19:09:41

I only wear what I think is the minimum of makeup (tinted moisturiser, tiny bit of eyeshadow, mascara, no lippy). I don't think I put enough on for other people to notice. I feel weird with more on - like a child dressing up. Maybe I would look gawjuss if I learned to wear more?

Teenagers now wear way more than we did, especially foundation.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 18-Nov-12 19:10:38

I often go without makeup on the weekends but have never done to work or on a night out without it.

I think I look alright without makeup,but it's just part of getting dressed for me really.

No makeup at all looks better than scarily overdone makeup every time though.

Me too Mousefunk, although I am pale and the dark trenches around my eyes freak people out if they are not filled with Clinique.

BinksToEnlightenment Sun 18-Nov-12 19:22:19

I would go out without any, but never to work. People would ask me if I was sick.

I wear.. (fascinating information alert grin )

Primer
Foundation
Concealer
Wrinkle concealer
Blusher
Highlighter
One or two eyeshadows
Eyeliner
Mascara
Eyebrow pencil
And lip gloss

Takes me ten minutes (proud!)

McChristmasPants2012 Sun 18-Nov-12 19:24:41

I never wear make up don't even own a single piece.

CrunchyFrog Sun 18-Nov-12 19:26:09

I wear none at all, unless i'm performing in shich case i do mascara. Nobody has ever asked me if I'm not well because of it!

Some fucking idiot lovely chap that was trying to chat me up tried to tell me I was lucky as I didn't "need" any, WTAF? Nobody needs makeup.

It makes me a bit sad, makeup should be for fun and decoration IMO, not for fear of ridicule.

BinksToEnlightenment Sun 18-Nov-12 19:27:35

Namechange - I recommend checking out the beauty section on the guardian website. There's a lady on there who uploads really good makeup tips. I can't remember her name off the top of my head.

Everlong Sun 18-Nov-12 19:27:39

I wouldn't go out without it on.
It just gives my skin a lift and brightens my face. I don't cake it on, it's subtle but effective.

PackItInNow Sun 18-Nov-12 19:30:08

I very rarely wear make-up as I hate the way it feels on my skin, even when applied professionally by a make-up artist. It makes my skin feel like I've slathered on a peel-off face mask and not peeled it off. You know that horrible claggy, sticky feeling.

ElectricSoftParade Sun 18-Nov-12 19:30:58

I have worn makeup since I was a teen and don't feel "dressed" without it, same for perfume.

I don't wear a huge amount but still feel much better when I have mascara and a bit of blusher on. I look better because, as above, I am asked if I am not well if I don't wear any.

When I have a tan I just use mascara (piggy eyes) but in the winter I use BB, mascara, blusher and lipstain.

autumnlights12 Sun 18-Nov-12 19:47:58

there isn't a woman alive who doesn't look better with a bit of makeup. Takes 10 minutes. Makes you feel better, protects and improves your skin. What's not to like?

Namechangeforapropertythread Sun 18-Nov-12 19:51:25

But it wouldn't for me. I've no idea what to buy, what I need, how not to look over done etc. I once had an estee Lauder make over in an attenmpt to learn and it would have cost hundreds for the stuff and I felt all caked on like I'd been face painted even though it did look nice.

I'd hate to do it and get it wrong and look over done. I suspect people might start noticing too. I'd feel strange going on school run with it too, just feels a bit odd to doll up for that!

FolkGhoul Sun 18-Nov-12 19:52:38

I rarely wear make up these days.

And when I do it's a small amount of foundations, concealer, powder, mascara and tinted lip gloss.

I'm in my late 30s and I actually think I look better without it.

E320 Sun 18-Nov-12 19:57:20

Never wear make-up, why? Put millions into companies run by men, exploiting women?
Actually I am just not interested.
If you are unhappy about what your genes have provided, talk to your parents ;-)

pjmama, I really do look rough without it! I have really pasty skin, and very dark circles under my eyes. Always have. At primary school, whenever we had a supply teacher, they would ask if I was feeling ok. After a few times, I started saying I felt unwell in the hope that they would send me home. It didn't work though, as my mum was a teacher in the school, so I'd be sent over to her classroom and have to sit in the corner, bored out of my mind until the end of the school day. grin

Binks - it's Sali Hughes in the Guardian

ILoveSparklers Sun 18-Nov-12 20:02:27

I can go make up free but I like looking awake and on the ball... Makes me feel more prepared i suppose.

GreatGardenstuff Sun 18-Nov-12 20:16:32

I really like nice make up, it's lovely stuff. I quite happily go without though, especially at the weekend, or if my skin is behaving itself.

For work I generally use:
Clarins beauty flash
Mac studio fix
Bobbi brown rose shimmer brick
Benefit browzings
Bobbi brown caviar eyeliner
Bobbi brown intensifying mascara
Job done.

Very rarely wear concealer, it always seems to draw attention to what I'm trying to hide. But maybe I've not found the right one yet...

ATourchOfInsanity Sun 18-Nov-12 20:19:47

I try to have a day at home without putting any one just once a week, but doesn't always work out.
I wear BB cream - foundation if I ever go out for a night on the town again which is starting to look unlikely
Concealer for under eyes
Mascara

And if I have time some nude eyeshadow and lipstick (trying to do more of the lippy recently as my friend always done and it really makes a difference once you start and get used to it).

I was told off at work once for 'not even bothering to do a proper face of make up' by a horrid HR lady. I was 19 and only really needed mascara and tinted moisturiser. I worked upstairs and never saw clients anyway! Felt funny about going out without anything at all on after that sad

Vivalebeaver Sun 18-Nov-12 20:22:55

I wear make up to work but don't other at weekends, days off. Will happily go out in the day without it to town, shops, etc.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

giveitago Sun 18-Nov-12 20:32:18

"Even very subtle make-up is worn to make us look prettier, younger, "

Younger? Really - one of the many reasons I don't put stuff on my face is because it's so ageing.

I remember once talking to a woman on a plane - she was with her family and they from southern europe. Dressed up to the nines all of them. her mum asked me to guess her daughters age and I said about 35 (I was about 32) - f'ck me she was 14 - bloody 14. I wasn't wearing makeup but I made up my mind there and there I'd never the wear the stuff.

Ovbiously they were very offended (so dom't ask if you you're not going to like the answer) and the mother of this girl was only about 2 years older than me and looked older than my grandma. Jeez that's what makeup looks like.

Can't stand the stuff.

Bit of moisturiser to keep the skin from drying out and everyone looks good. Face powder is the most odd thing ever and highlights all your wrinkles.

Giveitago, 14- that is shocking! But I did say 'good make-up' in my original post, meaning that which hadn't been applied by somebody trained in The Old Slapper's School of Beauty grin.

My best friend is worse than me, I went to visit her in hospital after an EMCS and she was sitting there with a full face of make-up including sparkle eyeshadow. She looked ready for a night out, except for the nightie and catheter. When she was a teenager, she heated some eyelash curlers using a hairdrier, and applied after using mascara. This resulted in her ripping out all if her top lashes!

squeakytoy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:39:08

I feel, (and know) I am less attractive without make-up, but it doesnt bother me. I dont go out of the house purely to be found attractive grin.

I would rather make more effort with my appearance just for nights out or meetings etc, where I either want to look attractive, or want to look as though I have groomed myself and look my best.

RawShark Sun 18-Nov-12 21:43:04

Sorry OP - what is your actual question? Wearing make-up is not a choice for me, I'm too disorganised. People are lucky if I've brushed my teeth grin

SinisterBuggyMonth Sun 18-Nov-12 21:44:56

I have to wear it, i've always had a bit of roseacre, after 30 I got stupid acne and chicken pox, left me pitted and scarred, the had mental acne after stoping bf ds, now without make up I reckon I look like I've got bad bumpy sunburn,with make up I just look bumpy. (wow, I am really selling myself here!)

On the plus side I do have nice eyes, so and am able to do amazing stuff with lash curlers, eyeliners and sparkly shadows, enough I hope to distract from my terrible skin.

giveitago Sun 18-Nov-12 21:49:14

mOOMIN - ok she did have quite a bit of make up on but it was soooo sad as she was good looking girl but wearing loads of makeup and very sophisticated clothes.

Perhaps that's what it was. I never ever give an age to females from my dh's country.

However, make up is aging. Oh do the odd bit of concealing etc but honestly eyeshadow, lipstick and powder and actually mascara are horribly ageing.

Avoid. I'd advise a mosturiser to stop your skin drying out - and vaseline for lips and that's it. Mat skin is awful.

Apart from moisturiser I don't bother with a thing except vaseline to stop lips drying out. I don't look anywhere my age beause I don't have those lines on the forehead (yet) and apart from vaseline on lips I don't wear makeup. also don't wear sophisticated clothes and my hair is just simply tied back (horribly massive frizzy hair). The more styled the hair, the more makeup (particularly with face powder) and the more sophisticated the clothes means you're gonna looks quite old.

That's my view and I'd never have the time to put on makeup. Lipstick makes your lips look thinner.

OhTheConfusion Sun 18-Nov-12 22:05:09

I very rarely leave the house without make up... and when I do it is only to the car, bin, washing line etc blush

I moisturise after shower and try to leave it for a good 10min to set in as I have quite dry skin then I use...

porefection base
foundation
powder
highlighter
blusher
eyeshadow (light cream for a quiet day but more for a bigger day/night out)
eyebrow pencil (I have slightly lighter eyebrows than hair!)
eyeliner (only really nights out)
mascara
lipstick
lip gloss or tinted balm

I can do this in under 10min but would rater go without a million ond one things than go out make up free.

I cannot leave the house without make-up. Acne has left my skin scarred and marked and I have zero confidence without it. I wear moisturiser, foundation, concealer, pressed powder, mascara and eyeliner - all to look like I don't wear any make-up!

If I have loads of time or want to look more dressy I'll wear eyeshadow as well, and if I'm gothing it up I'll wear lipstick too. grin

rawshark- I was asking if by wearing make-up to improve our appearance, some of us are keeping the ugly truth a big secret.

I would love to have the confidence to just be me, but I feel so unattractive without my 'mask'. It shouldn't matter, but it does. Even more so at the moment, as I have a 7 week old baby, and could imagine people saying, "moomin's really let herself go since having the baby"!

pissovski Sun 18-Nov-12 22:42:52

I cannot leave the house without makeup. I have no confidence in my looks at all (combination of bullying at school and a mum who would 'mention' my looks in a less than enthusiastic manner) and hate even having to open the door to the post man before I am 'done'. The funny thing is that many people (who have obviously never seen me without make up) seem to be surprised when I say that I wear it everyday!

The basics for me (can be done in 10/15 mins)
Eyebrow pencil
pressed powder (very light - Collection 2000 is great for pale skin)
eye shadow (pale gold)
eye liner on lower lids (bronze)
Mascara (used on lashes curled with eyelash curlers heated with a hair dryer!)

If i look very pale/skin is looking patchy I will use tinted moisturiser. Concealer if spots are lurking. Never wear lipstick, just vaseline. Black eyeliner if going out.

With make up, I can pass with a push! Without horses would be scared!

BombayBlue Sun 18-Nov-12 23:56:25

I have awful skin, cycts with rosacea (thanks pcos!) as well as fair hair&brows and full skin color lips, so wear full makeup every day.
Primer
Double wear foundation
Mac studio fix powder
Eyebrow pencil
Neutral eyeshadow
Flicky eyeliner
Mascara
Posietint
Lip balm
It might sound a lot but it looks v natural and it makes me happy.
I don't feel right without it
Perhaps if I had good skin and better definition between features it'd be different...
V envious of you lot that are v lucky if you feel you don't need/want it

ErrorError Mon 19-Nov-12 00:22:32

Unfortunately for me, foundation only seems to fill in the cracks and highlight blemishes, and I hate heavy make-up so I try to use moisturiser, a dab of concealer, and translucent powder. Less is more for me. (I do have occasional annoying teenage style breakouts, so always carry a tube of freederm gel.)

rhondajean Mon 19-Nov-12 00:24:13

Wouldn't open the door without full makeup.

AudrinaAdare Mon 19-Nov-12 01:09:39

I wore full makeup from sixteen to thirty. Up until I was seventeen it made me look older and after that people would say, "Oh you look really young without your eyeliner", but I did go a bit heavy on it then...

I found wearing "natural" makeup every day to be incredibly useful when I started work. If I was feeling ropey I would leave it off and before I had even said a word my colleagues would be all, "you look really red-eyed and pale Audrina! Are you okay? :headtilt: and I would be encouraged to go home. Result.

brighthair Mon 19-Nov-12 01:37:14

I love doing makeup, I honestly enjoy it. My list of "basic everyday" would probably have most people keeling over but it doesn't look a lot
Basic everyday
Concealer, tiny bit of foundation, silica powder, blusher
2/3 eyeshadows, primer,gel flicky liner,mascara, brow pencil

As above poster said if I leave off makeup I get asked with the head tilt "are you ok, you look really poorly today" grin

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 01:43:56

Oh I do love makeup.

sashh Mon 19-Nov-12 05:45:05

It's a few years since I've worn it. I've never worn it day to day, just going out.

I've had the occasional make over when fashions have changed and I can put the stuff on, I just don't see the point.

Namechangeforapropertythread

Try the bodyshop, they will show you how to apply and tell you what the bare minimum is.

vvviola Mon 19-Nov-12 05:58:57

I've never quite got on with makeup. My Mum rarely if ever wore it when I was growing up, and I never learnt to put it on properly. Add that to not being a morning person and I just never got into the habit.

I used to keep makeup in my desk drawer for if I had important meetings but I never quite felt I'd put it on right. I'm sure it looked fine...

I was always looking for the 5 minute routine that I could do before leaving the house, but never found it so mostly never bothered.

One of the things I love about being a SAHM/student at the moment is not "having" to wear it.

I'd still like to find and perfect a 5 minute routine mind you grin

It baffles me that people feel they need make-up. It's actually kind of scary that these huge cosmetics comapnies have somehow managed to wrangle their products into common thinking as "necessary" for women.

YANBU, OP, make-up can be deceptive, as you look entirely different with or without it.

Personally, I think make-up feels horrible, is a chore to put on and really, I wouldn't look like me. I don't even own any.
Did laugh at someone upthread saying make-up "protects and improves your skin" - it does exactly the opposite! Water is enough to keep skin clean and healthy, it really is.

cashmere Mon 19-Nov-12 08:48:39

I look a lot better with make up. My essentials are BB corrector under eyes, mascara and pink blusher.
It doesn't take long and I do feel better with it but still only bother about 50% of the time. Can't decide if this is bad or good. I think it's something I should prioritise for my own self esteem, but I'm also pleased I'm comfortable enough to be seen without...

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 08:57:17

Makeup actually does protect your complexion, foundation provides a physical barrier between your skin and the elements.

i love makeup. I am very pale with blonde eyelashes/bloodless pale lips. Would not wish to go out like that. Lucky you if your naturally gorgeous and dont need it. My bare minimum would be mascara and lippy, hurrah for being able to :-)

pinkdelight Mon 19-Nov-12 09:09:24

"there isn't a woman alive who doesn't look better with a bit of makeup."

I v strongly disagree with this and think a lot of women would look better without it, esp those who wear lots.

I wear it maybe five or six times a year, only for things like public speaking where the feeling of putting a mask on helps give me the confidence to do it i.e. something to hide behind before doing something scary - like an actor getting into a part. On a day to day basis I don't feel the need to pretend to look like anything other than myself, which is what I feel like the OP is kind of getting at. It'd be fine if it was a choice, but it's insidious and leads to an insecurity about how women actually look.

SorrelForbes Mon 19-Nov-12 09:09:37

My absolute bare minimum for facing the world is:

Touché Éclat
Mascara
Double Wear concealer

For work though, I tend to slap it on a bit more and to the above I add:

Skin illuminator
Foundation (but only where i really need it)
Grey eyeliner
Neutral coloured eyeshadow
Cream blusher

For nights out, I darken the eye makeup and add highlighter to cheekbones.

Can do full face in less than 10 mins.

I love make up but I also love not wearing it!

The only thing I won't leave the house without is eyebrow pencil as mine are virtually non existent and I have dark hair so really look odd otherwise. I keep a few lipsticks on the hall shelves and pop a bit on before leaving the house if I remember, but probably don't bother about half the time.

I have lots of it though and go through phases of wearing more and experimenting, then it starts seeming like a chore and I leave it off again for a few months. I can't say anyone has ever commented on how well or otherwise I look because of it. Wearing it less often makes it more of a treat when I have a night out. I do paint my nails most of the time though.

starsandunicorns Mon 19-Nov-12 09:26:24

I dont wear makeup only use moistour ( sp) on my face. I use lippy when on nights out working in warehouses most of my life i get dusty most shifts. Founation has always baffled me i also have mega red cheeks which always come through founation when i did try it in my teens. Though was told a few nights ago i was early thirtys !!! I hit 40 this yr

On a day to day basis I don't feel the need to pretend to look like anything other than myself

Good for you. However some of us do, for a variety of reasons. Wearing make-up, putting on that face, gives me the confidence to go out and face the world every day - I just couldn't do it without it. The only time I don't wear make-up is if I know I won't be leaving the house or seeing anyone, and that's rare

I do sometimes worry about what messages I'm giving my daughter (she's 3) but I figure it's better for her to have a mum who wears make-up every day than one who doesn't but has no confidence and barely leaves the house.

DappyHays Mon 19-Nov-12 11:02:59

10 mins for makeup? grin

I take 10-15 mins for my whole routine including shower, body lotion and hair drying!

Clinique No2 Toner (I know they don't call it toner but we all know it is)
Nivea Soft cream from a tube (£1 from Asda last time I bought it so got half a dozen)
If hungover a squirt of Beauty Flash Balm (doesn't work but the thought was there)
A brush of either Avon or Clinique minerals powder all over face
Benefit Dallas worn as blusher
Mascara (can't remember which brand, it is in a fat yellow bottle)
Lip gloss

Good to go.

forehead Mon 19-Nov-12 11:17:24

I love makeup. I make no apologies for my desire to look good.
I have even told my dh that if i go before him, he must ensure that my coffin contains my lippy and foundation, as i want to look good when i get to heaven.

MulledWineOnTheBusLady Mon 19-Nov-12 11:23:10

I have rosacea and am usually some combination of red, bumpy, pale and pasty. Mmm, nice. I don't wear make-up every time I step outside, but I definitely don't look well without it. I don't wear masses though - usually just BB cream, do my eyebrows and a sweep of powder. Then I look like a normal, healthy person who isn't wearing make-up grin

I am hmm with people who claim that no-one needs make-up. If you don't, then lucky you.

VonHerrBurton Mon 19-Nov-12 11:40:17

Classic example of ageing make up - Denise Van Outen on Strictly over the weekend. I know, I know, it was stage make up but she looked about 10 years older.

It's the eyeliner that does it. I'm 41 and have a close group of friends I've known since school and a couple of them still do their eye make up like they did 20 years ago - lots of it, black and coupled with lots of mascara. It looks fucking awful ageing and makes their eyes look tiny.

I have no choice but to wear make up to work - I know I look really good for my age with it on and I know I do it well. I work with young, gorgeous people and I think that's why my make up has moved with the times - I would stand out in a bad way if I still did 1990s make up.

I do think I look crap without it but over the weekends/days off it's none at all, or bare minimum, as I simply can't be arsed. It's the same with my hair - I know I go from chic to geek in between shampoos and styling, again, don't care when I'm off.

Bumblequeen Mon 19-Nov-12 12:05:44

vonherr I agree that some women look older due to wearing outdated make up- lip liner that is too dark against lipstick, heavy eye liner, pastel eyeshadow, heavy blusher.

I think the Duchess of Cambridge looks alot older than 29/30. It is not helped by the heavy black eye liner she wears.

ICBINEG Mon 19-Nov-12 12:16:19

hmm just 10 mins a day huh? So that is 48 days of my life I got back by not giving a shiny shit about 'looking the best I can'. (currently 35)

I like to think I spent that time with loved ones or on studying...but a lot of it may have been computer games and more recently MN of course...

I hate make up. I hate the idea that just because you could look better you should actually spend money and time doing it. That way leads to surgery and the rest.

Also it is a net zero sum...if everyone looks a bit better than it's not like your chances of pulling increase...you just spent money and time to stay still in the pack.

I think this is a situation like with fag advertising. When it was banned the fag companies all did better coz they weren't spending millions on keeping up with each other.

Women should do the same. Ban makeup and get our time and money back to ourselves.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 12:21:13

Ban makeup? shock

<faints>

MoomieAndFreddie Mon 19-Nov-12 12:26:54

some people look better without make up i think

i used to wear loads, now i just wear primer and a bit of concealer. if i am going out somewhere special i wear mascara but these days i hate the feel of it on my eyelashes and it makes my eyes feel itchy. IMO loads of make up actually ages me some people

mind you i have just had my eyebrow's tattooed on! grin (semi permanent make up) so feel a bit more confident bare faced now

VonHerrBurton Mon 19-Nov-12 12:30:08

Bumble your examples are spot on, exactly what I mean.

Light lipstick and dark lipliner - yee gods!

However I do see quite a few make up counter staff who still favour this look.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 12:32:07

Makeup counter staff often look horrendous! They must be forced to wear a certain amount of products, but wow it can be off putting.

MAC staff generally look better than most.

ICBINEG Mon 19-Nov-12 12:37:57

WTAF 40 quid on make up a week? that can't be right surely. That must be people who are heavily into the fake tan.

So lets go conservative on that one...and say 20 quid a week (I wonder if this includes haircuts?)

So as well as 48 days of time I also saved £20,000. whooop whooop

Thats like 10 times what I save by never entering the national lottery!

Do you still think we shouldn't ban make up?

ICBINEG Mon 19-Nov-12 12:39:47

Fecking hell thats a house deposit....

So every heavily made up woman of around my age that I meet could have saved up for house....

lubeybooby Mon 19-Nov-12 12:41:10

I look absolutely fucking horrendous without make up.

I'd be much happier going without if I had nice skin, and eyebrows that actually showed up, but my skin is shite.

Its tone is uneven, pores too big, too many little pimples, really dark circles, sallow in places and pinker in places and oh, some lovely melasma as well. God it's awful.

Add to that that I have dark hair but my eyebrows are sparse and eyes piggy and it all adds up to a fright. I'd give myself 1/10 make up less and at least 6/10 with it maybe 7 on a really good day! grin I'm good at applying it and little tricks etc to improve on the not so great so it really makes a huge difference.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 12:42:44

I'd love to live a country that saw fit to ban makeup. Sounds like a fun place to live, all those freshly scoured faces.

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 12:44:32

I can't think of anyone who would look better without makeup.

I'm talking primer, foundation, blusher, mascara and lipgloss. All in a light and natural tone. It even skins, laminates, brightens etc. Even the most beautiful woman can be enhanced.

MulledWineOnTheBusLady Mon 19-Nov-12 12:45:57

While we're at it, let's ban cats. They piss me right off. People can't possibly like them because I don't, and think of all that wasted money on cat food and vets fees! Silly cat-owners! They could be buying more books instead, I like books.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 12:47:10

I want to ban football.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 12:47:52

And joy, we could do with less joy in the world.

MulledWineOnTheBusLady Mon 19-Nov-12 12:47:53

Oh and TV! I don't watch it much, I could easily live without it, so I've decided all of you could as well, and you could spend the money you save on better bedlinen. OK? Excellent. <gavel>

NervousAt20 Mon 19-Nov-12 12:48:40

Hmm I only wear make up when I go out out not for everyday life, in to busy and don't have the time or patience. Plus it always makes my skin sore

MulledWineOnTheBusLady Mon 19-Nov-12 12:49:08

Yy joy is so wasteful.

Shortbread biscuits too. I hate them, powdery little sods.

snuffaluffagus Mon 19-Nov-12 12:49:47

I really enjoy putting makeup on (I love art and painting so it's probably because of that!).

Day to day I wear -

Concealer
Mac Foundation
A neutral eye shadow
Lots of liquid black eye liner (60's-esque with flicks)
Mascara

Sometimes blusher and sometimes a bit of loose powder if I'm looking all shiny but that's relatively rare.. and some lip gloss on a night out.

It's not that I can't go out without makeup, my skin is ok most of the time but I feel more comfortable when it's all one tone and I think I look scarily like my Dad without any eye-liner or mascara on!

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 12:51:41

Have you lovely colouring snuff to get away without blusher? I look dreadful without it. Although sometimes I go a bit blusher happy and can look aunt Sally if I'm not careful.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 12:54:16

Without blusher I look like a consumptive Victorian maiden.

VonHerrBurton Mon 19-Nov-12 12:56:14

MulledWine grin

I do think you'd struggle to find a woman on whom well-applied make up didn't improve their appearance. I'm talking really good primer and concealer, the tiniest amount of bronzing powder and a natural blusher applied in the right places. A hint of lipgloss and one coat of good mascara on curled eyelashes. If people don't want to wear it, then fine, but I can't agree with the argument that it doesn't improve looks.

ICBINEG Mon 19-Nov-12 12:56:28

everlong it may be true that even the most beautiful can be enhanced but it is equally true that even the most polished turd is still a turd. Of course we can enhance ourselves but why should we? And for the benefit of whom?

mulled and Squoosh cats and to a much lesser extent football apparently bring some pleasure to some people. Make up is an arms race of misery based on the apparently undeniable falsehood that you don't look good enough as you are (see everlongs comment above).

The idea that it is both necessary and desirable to improve your physical appearance whatever the cost (monetary, time, health risks in cases of surgery) is horrible from a psychological standpoint and massively sexist to boot.

Whereas as cats are fluffy lovely cute balls of love that can reduce both mental and physical illness in families that have them... and football...erm...oh fuck it you can ban football for all i care!

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 12:56:46

Ha! I don't even look that good.

BinksToEnlightenment Mon 19-Nov-12 12:57:39

Salli Hughes! That's her! Thank you.

She did a piece about long wear makeup recently and she said she didn't understand it because topping up your makeup halfway through the day was such a lovely, relaxing ritual.

I totally agree. I love makeup and I love putting it on. It's an art.

It is!

Woozley Mon 19-Nov-12 12:58:01

I have gone back to regularly wearing a bit of make up again after being all "I work from home now, I don't need to bother, woo hoo!" for a while. I am, however, quite confident to go out without it, but I look more glam with it. YY to the "You look tired/ill" comments though when I go without if people are used to seeing me with it.

The main issue (if I have any real ones) with my face is that I do have darker circles under my eyes than most people so I tend to put a bit of concealer on at least - also my eyelashes are quite light - not blonde but a lighter brown than my hair so if I have missed out on a bit of sleep I look tired and my eyes don't stand out (IYSWIM!) Though having light body hair is quite nice in terms of not looking very hairy generally - swings & roundabouts.

So, for daily wear I have concealer, loose powder, bronzing powder, eyeliner & mascara, that's it. It takes me 3 minutes to apply. I hardly ever bother with foundation, it doesn't do anything for me whatsoever. On a night out I additionally wear eyeshadow, highlighter, blusher & lipstick.

ICBINEG Mon 19-Nov-12 12:58:31

definitely ban TV - that is where the blaring of the "oh god you can't possibly go out looking like that" message is at its loudest...

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 12:58:33

That's not my point though is it? I didn't say anybody had to. I said that everyone could be enhanced by makeup. Which is true.

squoosh Mon 19-Nov-12 13:00:40

Long Live Makeup!

<chains self to Space NK counter>

MulledWineOnTheBusLady Mon 19-Nov-12 13:01:00

Make-up brings pleasure to some people, ICBINEG. You don't get to decide that it's an arm race of misery for people who are not you. Sorry.

NessunDorma Mon 19-Nov-12 13:02:39

Oh god, I have very pale skin, dark circles under my eyes, acne scars and a round face that looks moon-like without a bit of blusher and some eyebrow pencil.

Maybe I'm pathetic but I honestly used to avoid mirrors because I looked so washed out and tired. I have only really figured out what suits me in the past year, but my confidence has risen so much.

<High-fives lubeybooby>

Woozley Mon 19-Nov-12 13:04:45

The idea that it is both necessary and desirable to improve your physical appearance whatever the cost (monetary, time, health risks in cases of surgery) is horrible from a psychological standpoint and massively sexist to boot.

I don't agree with such a sweeping statement. The biggest cost but most effective way for me to improve my physical appearance (but more importantly, health) is by going to the gym, for which I pay £36 a month. Make up doesn't tone muscles, keep your body strong or your blood pressure down, or help stave off osteoporosis.

And I'm slightly in the minority as a woman there I'd say. When I started going to a gym 20 years ago I was vastly in the minority. Generally if you are healthy you look good too. Make up only does so much.

NessunDorma Mon 19-Nov-12 13:04:54

Oh and I fake tan too. <whips self>

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 13:05:23

Ban makeup. Surely they are swear words.

I love makeup.

That business of it taking up precious time is utter shite. In the morning whilst ds is getting dressed I put my makeup on. I'm guessing it takes less than 2 minutes. I'll time myself tomorrow. Nobody is missing out and I look a hell of a lot better for it.

I find it odd that any woman would be so against it.

So no makeup... what about getting haircuts & combing it, that ok? What about hairspray? step too far? Should we just wear basic gender neutral clothing, no fancy adornments? grin

I think its lovely we can make ourselves look better if we so choose. And that those who prefer to look unmade up are allowed to do that too.

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 13:13:42

Whenever I see a woman with no makeup on I always think I'd love to get my hands on her.

NewRowSees Mon 19-Nov-12 13:19:23

Yay makeup lovers! I only spend about 5-6 minutes on my face (maybe up to 15 if it was a big event, like my birthday), but it makes such a difference to my general sense of well-being, I'd never not.

Not sure why the make-up killjoys can't make do with not wearing it themselves. No need for judgement / comments like Icebineg's. I certainly don't judge people who don't wear make-up!

NessunDorma Mon 19-Nov-12 13:21:06

And it doesn't have to be expensive either, most of my makeup is from Collection 2000 blush I don't have money to spend in Selfridges but I still enjoy makeup!

LadySybilPussPolham Mon 19-Nov-12 13:40:26

Interesting thoughts on here. My use of make up has always been to conceal spots, uneven skin, red patches etc. I've had bad skin for nearly 30 years and only antibiotics and pregnancy have temporarily improved it. I used to find it incredibly depressing and limiting but have very gradually come to terms with it. I am still, however, extremely self conscious and would be unable to go out and face people without the very minimum of concealer/foundation and powder. It's not about embellishment for me - its about camouflage, for want of a better word. I have also generally found that people with 'good' skin simply do not understand this.

Exactly Nessun! I spend maybe £50 a year on make-up as I buy Collection2000 or Rimmel. Unless I have a Boots voucher, when I will treat myself to something nicer.

ICBINEG Of course we can enhance ourselves but why should we? And for the benefit of whom? For my own benefit. My skin is so bad that I dislike being seen by anyone other than DH without make-up. If I didn't wear it I wouldn't leave the house because I would think that people are staring at my awful skin. That wouldn't be much of a life would it?

I understand some of what you're saying from a feminist viewpoint, but it might be taken more seriously if you didn't sound so smug and judgmental.

BinksToEnlightenment Mon 19-Nov-12 13:48:55

Agree with that Everlong. My fingers itch to get working on some people.

Makeover!!!!!

Yes Lady, camouflage is a very good way of looking at it. I sometimes liken it to putting on a mask - without make-up I hate going out and can barely make eye contact. Wearing make-up I become a much more confident, happy and loud person.

freddiefrog Mon 19-Nov-12 13:51:43

I always wear make up. I don't plaster it on, but wouldn't leave the house without something.

Someways I can get away with a bit of eyeliner and mascara and a bit of lip gloss, other days, the bags and wrinkles require a full service.

I also wear fake tan, dye my grey hair, shave the hair off various body parts, wear matching undies and make an effort with clothes

I don't give a shiny shite what other people choose to do (or not) with their appearance, if you don't like it, don't do it <shrug>

NessunDorma Mon 19-Nov-12 13:53:30

I used to feel so self-conscious, I'd talk to the postman and the whole time think he was staring at my scars/bags

lubeybooby Mon 19-Nov-12 15:11:19

<high fives NessunDorma> <adds a knowing nod>

roooibos Mon 19-Nov-12 17:14:58

For an MN makeup fred, this is pretty standard stuff,, can I now shout "BINGO?" - yep, I think everything's been covered on here now: I was just waiting for the 'I spend more time with loved ones' spiel (& you haven't let me down) grin

Spice17 Mon 19-Nov-12 17:27:12

I would go without make up to nip to the shop etc but sadly I can't as I have horrible brown marks on my face from pregnancy (can't remember what they're called?) so have to cover it with foundation or I feel like people are looking at me sad

DH took a pic of me after I had DD recently (obviously sans make up) and it looked like I had dotted fake tan on my face or daubed myself with a tea bag!

Floggingmolly Mon 19-Nov-12 17:45:48

Every single time for the past ten years or so that I've gone barefaced I've been asked if I'm ill. Every single time hmm
It's made me so paranoid that I'd now sooner leave the house without knickers than I would makeup.

TiggyD Mon 19-Nov-12 17:53:47

Yes it is deceptive. It's supposed to make you look better than you would normally.

(Although it can work the other way round too!)

BiteTheTopsOffIcedGems Mon 19-Nov-12 17:59:59

I don't leave the house without make up. I love it. I don't wear loads but enough.
I can do concealer, eyeliner, mascara, lipstick and eyeshadow in about 3 mins on the school run with 5 children.
I HAVE to wear it so people don't think its the apocalypse .
My mum and gran came to my house once before I had chance to put my face on and they said 'you look terrible what is wrong with you?'

hattymattie Mon 19-Nov-12 18:28:27

I am never without my lipstick - I always have one with my so I can just swipe it on - don't feel right without it.

Otherwise I normally put on tinted moisturiser (clinique) and a bit of blush or I look like sister death in winter ( can go without in summer). If I have something formal will do beauty flash balm or primer plus foundation plus blush and mascara and eyeliner on top lids plus neutral eyeshadow that just adds a bit of sparkle.

Eliza22 Mon 19-Nov-12 18:30:25

Well, I love wearing makeup. I'm 50. Now, I need it to stop me looking drab. I don't use it to attract the opposite sex, or even the same sex. I wear it because I feel prettier in it. My husband loves watching me put it on (not in a creepy way - more the fact that is feminine).

I use tinted moisturiser, blush, shadow and mascara. Always coloured lip balm. Not a full-on look IMO. Am I insecure? Possibly, but when I look around at ladies my age, who look like a little bit of SOMETHING would bring them back to "full health" I'm glad I make the time to apply mine.

I'm not glamourous. I'm not pretty. But I AM attractive, more so with my face on. And I like it that way.

kerstina Mon 19-Nov-12 18:47:18

Yes you are right. Make up can be deceptive. I read something on facebook the other day it said "Bitch I could take most of your so called beauty off with a tissue!" It made me think.
Most models have blank faces that can be made to look beautiful with makeup.
I look very pale and probably ill looking without makeup but I am quite good at the art of putting on make up and have reasonable bone structure so I can fool people. I hate heavy unnatural looking makeup but makeup can just look like a more polished version of yourself and gives you a bit of colour.

Everlong Mon 19-Nov-12 18:54:44

My handbag has nothing but lipglosses in it in every shade of nudey pink oh and my purse.

InNeedOfBrandy Mon 19-Nov-12 19:02:48

I wear foundation, blush, mascara and a dab of Vaseline every day. Without it I feel terrible and close friends will ask if I'm ill. I will for instance take dc swimming and walk home without make up but I wouldn't stop to chat to anybody and I don't feel like me.

I love going out somewhere nice and putting full slap on, I could do this every day but then I'd look the same all the time.

cocolepew Mon 19-Nov-12 19:18:12

I love wearing make up, I slap on a full face every day.

I didn't do my eyes as dark as usual today and about a million people told me I looked tired hmm.

ICBINEG Tue 20-Nov-12 14:21:23

joyful I only sound smug and judgemental because you know I am so very right...

squoosh Tue 20-Nov-12 14:23:14

I only sound smug and judgemental because you know I am so very right

hmm

Clearly lots of people think you're wrong.

ICBINEG Tue 20-Nov-12 14:23:57

yes but they can't help it can they...I mean I forgive them their misunderstanding of the world...

DragonMamma Tue 20-Nov-12 14:28:27

Make up makes everybody look better. Fact. Whether you wear it or not is up to you. But I recommend everybody does.

I am housebound due a broken foot at the moment and I STILL put make up on, every morning. I feel all unkempt and plain otherwise. Only takes 5 mins and I tend to use a BB cream in the week for speed.

My DS flushed my blusher down the loo and I was quite traumatised as DH can't be trusted to get the 'right' one. Luckily my mum views make up like I do - it's the 'done' thing in our family to slap on your war paint every day. Even my mid-70s nan does.

Glimmerberry Tue 20-Nov-12 14:31:22

Make up keeps me sane. After 20+ years of living with teenage acne, hormonal adult acne, prenatal acne and now postnatal acne, I don't know how I'd face the world without it.

ICBINEG Tue 20-Nov-12 14:46:17

So when you see someone with a huge birthmark or with acne etc what do you think?

I don't think anything at all. It doesn't really register. We are all different in our physical appearance and that is a good thing for the gene pool. Spots aren't a moral issue, they are a genetic issue. You certainly aren't worth less to society (or to me) if you have them.

So when you see someone caked in make up/fake tan what do you think?

I tend to think automatically about the teenage girls who kill themselves because they are fat/ugly/don't look like the fake excuses for human beings in the glossy mags.....and for every one that does the deed there are a 10,000 more living in misery and thinking about it...and for what?

Heavy make up doesn't make you look more attractive, it makes you look insecure, shallow and desperate to hang on to the remnant of your youth.

squoosh Tue 20-Nov-12 14:51:53

When I see someone 'caked' in makeup, I think to myself, 'they're a bit heavy handed with their makeup'. But no I can't say it ever reminds me of teenage girls who commit suicide because they despise their appearance.

People choose to wear makeup because they like wearing makeup, other people choose not to wear makeup because they don't care for it.

Your anti makeup rant is bizarre and over the top.

ifancyashandy Tue 20-Nov-12 14:51:53

ICBINIG, ah, so those of us who wear and like make up don't know our own minds? We've all been indoctrinated by the hegemony, right?

Do fuck off, there's a patronising love.

ifancyashandy Tue 20-Nov-12 14:52:49

*apologies for incorrectly spelling name.

ICBINEG Tue 20-Nov-12 15:03:29

if you wear make up because you want to then fine (yes of course it is aaaall your own idea that you came up with all by yourself when you just woke up one day and just KNEW that what would really improve your life was hiding your face under a layer of synthetic crap).

But do at least take ownership of the problem you create when impressionable young girls see you and learn the most important message of their lives - that it isn't okay to simple be yourself - that being yourself simple isn't good enough. Your pleasure in making yourselves up comes with a price. Just because you aren't the ones paying it doesn't mean that no-one else is.

DragonMamma Tue 20-Nov-12 15:27:13

Tbf, my face isn't good enough without make up. I shock myself every day with how much better I look with my make up on.

Make up makes me feel better about me. Surely that's a positive message for my DD? I don't give a rats arse, make up is magic.

Eliza22 Tue 20-Nov-12 15:34:11

I don't give a rat's ass either. I'm NOT responsible for teenage suicide. I wear makeup, some days more than others depending on what I'm doing that day as i think it suits me. I can only take responsibility for my own appearance. Not everyone else's.

It can be psychologically beneficial or psychologically damaging. Take your own (personal) pick.

ifancyashandy Tue 20-Nov-12 15:36:56

And maybe it's just FUN!

squoosh Tue 20-Nov-12 15:42:17

ICBINEG, I never claimed to have invented makeup, I claim to enjoy wearing it.

And funnily enough I don't see my wearing mascara in anyway linked to someone's suicide. The only judgmental person on this thread is you. You are telling people they aren't good enough because they choose to wear makeup.

Crinkle77 Tue 20-Nov-12 15:46:38

I would hate to be a slave to make up. I only wear make up when I go out and never for work. If you always wear make up then you never look any different. When I go out with people from work and put it on they all comment and say how nice I look but if I wore it all the time they wouldn't notice that I looked any different.

Crinkle77 Tue 20-Nov-12 15:48:43

Also I think that people who wear make up all the time look rough cos their face never gets to see the sun and you end up being pale. Let the sun get to it and your skin will glow naturally

squoosh Tue 20-Nov-12 15:50:32

Not me, I'm a melanin free zone.

fromparistoberlin Tue 20-Nov-12 15:57:34

i love make up

I LOVE IT SO MUCH

Jusfloatingby Tue 20-Nov-12 15:58:40

ICBINEG You are way over analysing things. Do you also suggest people shouldn't get their hair cut regularly or dress to suit their figure or wear earrings etc in case it gives young teenagers the wrong message?

I can understand concerns about size 0 models, airbrushing away every celebs flaws and stuff like that which give people a totally unrealistic idea of how some women look. But people who like to wear a bit of foundation and blusher and lipstick when they go out are a different matter altogether.
I like wearing make up. I feel more groomed and smart looking with it on. I don't like heavy make up that completely masks someone's natural skin tones or looks too stagey. But I think most women look better with a touch of blusher/foundation/eyeshadow.

cocolepew Tue 20-Nov-12 17:06:25

As I said I wear a full face everyday. I have a 15 year old DD who isn:t even interested in brushing her hair never mind copying me and my make up obsessions.

ICBINEG Tue 20-Nov-12 17:09:16

well it is all about scale isn't it. driving your car doesn't destroy the environment single handedly but to deny the impact of your car use is selfish.

And yes people with private jets are more culpable than people driving small family cars....but so what? The car drivers are still responsible.

As to the person who said that they thought that the message "Make up makes me feel better about me" is a positive one, WTAF?

How about "being a smart/intelligent/caring/strong/generous/loving woman makes me feel better about me?" delete as appropriate.

Sort of the difference between saying "I love you as you are" and "never mind I have something you can cover yourself up with so at least we can go out".

I kinda know which I will be saying to my DD both verbally and by example.

squoosh Tue 20-Nov-12 17:12:14

I dread to think how you'll react if your dd grows up to have a different opinion on this to you.

ICBINEG Tue 20-Nov-12 17:20:41

I dread to think that she might die under the knife...all in search of the perfect figure....

squoosh Tue 20-Nov-12 17:22:20

What percentage of people who wear makeup also undergo plastic surgery?

cocolepew Tue 20-Nov-12 17:22:52

Make up and plastic surgery is not the same thing confused

Eliza22 Tue 20-Nov-12 17:24:22

I consider myself and many women I know, to be smart/intelligent/caring/strong/generous and loving people. They also choose to we're a little makeup/get their hair done/buy clothes that suit them/get all dolled up for a really special occasion.

Give it a rest ICBINEG. Would you?

Eliza22 Tue 20-Nov-12 17:24:59

Wear. WEAR a little makeup. smile

ifancyashandy Tue 20-Nov-12 18:46:02

ICBENEG My mother was a very active feminist in the 70's & 80's. Still feminist to the core now she's In her 70's. And I'm hugely proud of her and what she passed on to me in terms of How To Be A Woman.

She never wore make up. And is strangely proud of me and my complete adoption of that aspect of my femininity (as well as my independence and shit hot job). Go figure.

Eliza22 Wed 21-Nov-12 08:51:28

Ifancyashandy? Erm, what point are you making? "Go figure" ?

You have a great career and you're proud to have what you're mum passed on to you in terms of how to be a woman. And you don't wear makeup. A choice you've PERSONALLY made.

It's PERSONAL choice. Exactly. there's no superiority in choosing to "go bare/natural".

Captain America (Petronas) cheating on his wife with his younger, more (to some) physically attractive biographer? Well I'm sorry, and it's no excuse for him I know, but Mrs P could have used a comb through her hair and a little lipstick. She may be a wonderful woman/intelligent/strong/kind/loving woman but she looks like his mother.

(Waits to be flamed)

ifancyashandy Wed 21-Nov-12 09:31:18

Read above.... Point is, I most certainly DO wear make up...

Eliza22 Wed 21-Nov-12 13:28:08

Apologies. I thought you said your mum didn't wear makeup and she was proud of your adoption of "that aspect of my femininity".

ifancyashandy Wed 21-Nov-12 14:20:36

No worries. I'd posted up thread that's loved makeup so thought it was apparent.

Eliza22 Wed 21-Nov-12 14:21:51

smile and goes to put a swipe of lip pie on, for the school run.

Really must nip to Boots in the morning for some BB cream and mascara. They've got a buy one, get 2nd half price offer on too at the moment....grin

SinisterBuggyMonth Wed 21-Nov-12 23:18:17

Just wondering if those of you who disaprove of make up on a feminist stance, what do you think of punks, goths, emo, new romantics etc and other subcultures who use make up as an art or a form of self expression?

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 11:20:00

SBM I don't have a problem with sub cultures because they are sub. It is okay not to be goth, emo, tattooed.

I have a problem with main stream culture adopting a "you should always look your best" stance because it wildly over emphasises the importance of physical appearance, and is making a lot of vulnerable people very unhappy.

There seems to be a whole series of programmes about kids with body image disasters at the moment.....lots of teens going in for surgery because they "need" a better nose, or hair, or boobs or whole face etc.

And yes the message comes predominantly from TV, films, magazines etc. but a substantial part of the message comes from seeing the effort/time/money the people near you put into looking their best. If you would rather have a boob job than save for a house then that is a powerful message to your children that you consider appearance as more important than financial stability. If you spend money on make up rather than a holiday (and it would appear the amounts may be comparable in a year) then that tells our kids you would rather look a bit better than take them on holiday. All this adds up to the idea that appearance is everything and more important than fun times spent together or having a roof over your head. Is it any wonder that kids then panic when they realise they aren't the most attractive in the class?

If you are so attached to your make up then fine - go for it. But at least consider the fact that your children will tend to ascribe value to the things that you ascribe value to. So it isn't just your life you affect when you choose to value appearance over substance.

Eliza22 Thu 22-Nov-12 11:33:59

But ICBINEG, why does appearance and wanting to look your best mean you can't have SUBSTANCE as well?

You'd hate me on sight with my blush and mascara but I have substance also.

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:14:08

Valuing appearance doesn't mean you don't value substance clearly. This is a matter of emphasis and relative importance. The media portray appearance as being infinitely more important than substance (think comments on MP's clothing, on Mary Beards appearance in general, think X-factor etc).

So in order to compensate for that we have, I feel, a duty to broadcast the opposing "who you are is more important than how you look" as well as the "you are amazing just as you are" messages as loud as we can. Nipping off for a boob job because you just can't be happy with small boobs or spending 10 mins of every single day putting on "necessary" makeup just so you feel confident enough to step out the door is sending entirely the opposite message, and reinforcing the appearance matters message.

How anyone can watch these programs about teenagers desperate for surgery and still think that make up is just a bit of cheery fun is completely beyond me.

Either you tell them through your actions that you DO think appearances are important by altering your own wherever possible and hence lead them to contemplate surgery or worse, or you show them through your actions that you don't value appearances highly by facing the world as you are, hopefully giving them the confidence to do the same.

I would love someone to tell me where I can book a holiday for a family of six for approximately £100! wink

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:18:53

eliza If I walk past you in the street, what can I tell about you? Can I tell you have substance? Can I tell if you are wearing make up just because its fun or because you have deep seated anxieties about your appearance? No.

All I can tell is that you value appearances highly.

If I am a teenage girl then I get exactly the same message. You may be the most wonderful intelligent strong feminist the girl will walk past in a week - but all she will see is yet another woman who values appearances highly.

ifancyashandy Thu 22-Nov-12 12:20:07

ICBINEG I work in telly AND wear make up - you'd hate me!

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:20:14

moomin yes well I am as surprised as anyone that the average yearly make up spend is apparently £2000. But then my lifetime make up spend is about £50 quid....

Must be all the fake tan...

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:22:14

I kinda make a rule not to judge on appearances...as you might imagine. But I would feel just a little sad that your personal choices were influencing lots of vulnerable people in a bad way (sad is too strong a word - like 2% sad 98% who gives a toss).

squoosh Thu 22-Nov-12 12:23:29

the average yearly make up spend is apparently £2000

That is nonsense, the average woman spends nothing close to £2000 on makeup! £166 a month on makeup? Very rare.

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:24:11

I have no problem with tv as such (don't actually have one as you will no doubt not be surprised to hear) but they could be more representative.....the whole less than averagely attractive half of the population is not represented AT ALL.

squoosh Thu 22-Nov-12 12:24:18

And what exactly is wrong with valuing appearance? Appearance is part of who we are.

ifancyashandy Thu 22-Nov-12 12:26:43

Don't be sad - my shows tend to be made by women and gay men (so not sure who's 'indoctrinating' us) and get high ratings. So we must be doing something the audiences like.

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:27:44

hmmm I can believe that is the average...but that it is massively biased by a relatively small number of make up maniacs.

A survey of the top few hits in google suggests the number is cooked up by the DM and may be a massive exageration.

2-300 quid seem closer to the mark?

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:28:59

ifancy last time I checked BGT and x-factor were popular shows....what exact merit do you place on being popular?

ifancyashandy Thu 22-Nov-12 12:29:00

You should watch Kyle... Many less than beautiful faces to be found there!

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:29:20

kyle?

ifancyashandy Thu 22-Nov-12 12:33:12

What merit do I attach? Why, I get a huge amount of satisfaction in entertaining a vast section of the population.

That and being paid enough to afford my beauty habit...

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:33:57

hmmm my experience appearance is a tiny part of who you are. When I meet someone my opinion of them is maybe 10% according to physical appearance. Once you know them a bit that drops to around 2% and once you know them really well you stop noticing physical appearance at all.

According to the media physical appearance is what 95% of the ball game?

I guess the question is when a normalish looking teenage girl is wanting surgery do you think - yup good idea...coz no one is going to take you seriously looking like that. OR do you think you know what in the grand scheme of things no one will actually care if your nose is slightly smaller in the future - it's not worth risking your life over.

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:35:37

ahhh entertaining.....yup best way to do that is to reinforce lazy stereotypes and tell people that what they want to believe is true is actually true....you know shit like if you work hard enough you can achieve anything!

Yeah whatever...

earthpixie Thu 22-Nov-12 12:43:05

I think well-applied, subtle make up makes pretty much everyone look better. Even skin, less blemishes, eyes emphasised and all that. But I don't think that anyone should ever feel they HAVE to wear it. It's a choice, like styling your hair or clipping it back.
Someone I know was told that she HAD to wear full make-up to work, including blusher. This was the late 90s shock

ifancyashandy Thu 22-Nov-12 12:44:22

You sound a little bitter stressed. Maybe a facial would help?

Sidge Thu 22-Nov-12 12:55:40

I love make up. I'd rather be late for work than not apply my makeup.

I had my makeup done professionally when I was a bridesmaid for my friend and it was so amazing I fancied myself grin I still looked like me, just brighter, clearer, more colourful. I felt wonderful.

I mean, there's makeup and there's makeup. Good makeup should enhance, bad makeup is an artificial mask.

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 12:59:55

IFS okay so what was 'kyle' and what is a 'facial'....I'll try anything once...

ICBINEG Thu 22-Nov-12 13:12:33

IFS are you actually in front of the cameras?

JollyJock Thu 22-Nov-12 13:23:28

All the 'it only takes 10 minutes' comments are fair enough, but those ten minutes are time i could be doing something else.

My 'beauty' routine consists of a 5-10 minute shower daily, with shampoo and conditioner, and brushing my hair once a day.

I look fine. Men seem to find me attractive (which is what make up seems to be about), people generally like me and I get half an hour longer in bed than folk who apply heaps of make up and blowdry/straighten their hair daily. Also, my hair and skin seem to be in much better condition than most people's. Every time I go to the hairdresser they can't believe how few split ends I have and I get about 1 spot a month, if that.

MadderHat Thu 22-Nov-12 13:28:51

Hmm. I wonder how long people actually spend doing makeup, how many hours out of their lives is spent making up and removing it. I have reactions to so many brands, even as a young teen, that I gave up trying and never got used to wearing it. Now, as a mother to two little ones, I can't imagine having the time to do it, especially on busy mornings dashing out to work and getting the children up and to nursery (no, I don't want to get up before 6:30 to add to my morning routine.)

squoosh Thu 22-Nov-12 13:37:14

those ten minutes are time i could be doing something else

Fair enough but you can say that about anything though. I don't drink tea or coffee so save many minutes each day not boiling kettles, not drinking coffee, not queuing in Starbucks etc. . . . . . . . . .

squoosh Thu 22-Nov-12 13:39:13

Men seem to find me attractive (which is what make up seems to be about)

Really, is it? Even when I'm working from home I like to apply some makeup. The idea that the reason women apply makeup in order to snare a man is pathetic.

squoosh Thu 22-Nov-12 13:40:41

And by the way, I'm 35 and frequently get asked for ID when buying a bottle of wine, so my complexion doesn't seem to be suffering too much from my love of makeup.

amy175 Thu 22-Nov-12 13:45:35

i have worn makeup maybe 3 times in the last year. just dont wear it. never bothered. i hardly have time to brush my hair in the mornings, often just plonk it a pony tail. my oh isnt bothered either. he once said to me after i had spent an hour doing my hair and make up for a wedding "what are you wearing all that for?" not quite the oh you look beautiful i was hoping for! so not doing it for him and not doing it for me either, i just dont care! maybe i will care as i get older. But with sn kids mornings are too busy to care.

JollyJock Thu 22-Nov-12 16:54:36

Squoosh, I'm baffled by why people would wear make up. There were various comments up thread about men's take on women wearing make up, so I assume that if women are talking about make up in relation to their attractiveness to the other sex then it must be a factor in them deciding to wear it.

squoosh Thu 22-Nov-12 17:06:50

Why be baffled? I don't care whether other women go out wearing five sets of false lashes and their own weight in fake tan, equally I don't care if they scrub their face with soap and water and leave it at that. Their decision.

And really and truly I don't care what men think of my makeup, I wear makeup because I like the way I look when I'm wearing it. I wouldn't allow a man to tell me to wear more makeup, equally I wouldn't alllow a man to tell me to go makeup free.

I like experimenting with makeup, it's fun. To me.

MadderHat Thu 22-Nov-12 17:37:33

I'm quite happy with different people deciding how much make up they personally are going to wear. I'm happy if they do it for themselves or for others, I'm happy if they do it to impress or not.

I'm not happy if people feel forced or pressured into wearing make up, particularly impressionable young girls. I'm not happy if I am (or others are) ridiculed or treated differently because of not wearing it, whether it is by choice or not. (I was definitely not happy when I was criticised for not wearing it on my wedding day.)

Oh dear. People have been using makeup since 10,000BC. Its not new.

And no one is compelled to wear it.

Its amusing to hear of the 'bafflement' of those who don't wear it. Some people like cheese. Some people don't. Why is this 'baffling'? Its personal preference.

JollyJock Thu 22-Nov-12 19:24:30

Okay, I am baffled that people can be arsed with it. I am also baffled that people can be arsed to iron all their clothes and sheets. Or pluck their eyebrows.

I don't think any less of people that do or don't do these things, I just don't understand why someone would get up earlier or spend less time with their DCs so they have time to put on make up.

However, it didn't actually cross my mind that someone might enjoy putting on make up, so that pretty much explains for me why anyone would rather put on make up than do other things. So, thank you.

Gettheetoanunnery Thu 22-Nov-12 19:26:29

I do love a bit of make up. Some days I go the whole hog and do foundation, concealer, blusher, eyeshadow and all the rest.
Other days I go with nothing shock I like to do that as it stops me worrying about having to wear it all the time and people not knowing what I really look like.

To me it's just like fashion, it's fun to play around with different styles, new brands etc.

Never understood why some women feel the need to attack other women and their choices confused

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 10:26:36

"Never understood why some women feel the need to attack other women and their choices"

Allow me to explain the concept. Other peoples choices affect me and mine (in this case especially my DD). If I think your choices are going to adversely affect my DD then I will point out the fact in no uncertain terms.

squoosh Fri 23-Nov-12 11:43:55

Do you think your dogmatic opinion on this matter will adversely affect your dd? What if she grows up to adore makeup? Will that be ok?

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 23-Nov-12 12:38:45

What if you have a DS?

How does your DD feel about how much you disaprove of make up? Maybe that is influencing her away from making her own decisions in later life too.

Gettheetoanunnery Fri 23-Nov-12 12:42:55

How does me deciding to put on a bit of mascara and eyeshadow on, or deciding to curl my hair one day affect your daughter?
You can preach all you like but your daughter will grow up and make her own decisions in life. She may or she may not listen to your opinions on makeup, as long as she's happy and healthy then what does it matter?

Noren Fri 23-Nov-12 12:52:46

I don't wear make-up at all because it angers me that women feel like they have to and are judged for not wearing make-up, when men aren't expected to (feminist). On a personal level I do prefer looking at women who aren't wearing makeup, so I think that helped me to transition from the teen who knew a lot about makeup and wore it every day, to now when I don't even wear it for special occasions including my wedding day.

Gettheetoanunnery Fri 23-Nov-12 12:57:19

That's a very sweeping generalisation you've got there Noren

Noren Fri 23-Nov-12 13:06:00

Pure observation, actually.

squoosh Fri 23-Nov-12 13:07:46

I too am a feminist Noren and I don't feel I have to wear makeup, I feel I want to. Have to laugh though, you're railing against perceived prejudices towards women who don't wear makeup but then quite happily display your own prejudices against women who do wear makeup.

Hello irony.

Noren Fri 23-Nov-12 13:10:02

Squoosh, I didn't say ALL women. But clearly, there are women who feel they have to.

There's another argument about why you want to, but I won't get into that.

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:10:29

yeah well if all teenage girls were happy and healthy then I too wouldn't give a shit about whether people wore make up or not.

But they aren't. A lot are very unhappy and very unhealthy because of societies obsession with appearance and beauty.

If my daughter is happy and healthy and adores make up then we will agree to disagree. If I have another DD then we will have to see...I wouldn't want one DD undermining the others confidence in what's inside being the most important thing.

Gettheetoanunnery Fri 23-Nov-12 13:12:49

So you've gone round asking every single woman why they wear make up and they've all told you they do it for the men?

Well you've obviously not asked me, I wear it cos I like it and I don't give a fig what anyone else thinks.

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:13:04

People do get that don't they? That if make up didn't have the negative side affect of undermining girls confidence then I wouldn't give a shiny shit if people wore it?

The ONLY reason I care is because our societal obsession with appearances and beauty is so damaging to vulnerable girls.

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:17:50

get I am glad your self confidence is such that you can take or leave make up and hence have a free choice.

But that is not true for everyone.

The same arguments are used for Burkhas etc. That no one is forcing anyone to wear one...it's just that everyone happens to choose to do so in certain geographical locations.

And yes a whole load of people probably are happy and confident in that choice. But a whole load aren't and feel forced to comply with their local societal model of correct dress.

Same with make up. Undoubtedly some people just wear it for fun (because a layer of synthetic grease on your face feels soooo nice) but a whole lot of people are being driven to conform to the societal expectation that "one must look ones best" and that is a Bad Thing.

Gettheetoanunnery Fri 23-Nov-12 13:18:04

But bringing your daughters up with the opinion of 'its evil to wear makeup' isn't giving them a healthy opinion on women who choose to. I'd much rather bring my daughter with the belief that you can be beautiful with or without makeup. The Roald Dahl quote comes to mind...
"A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have good thoughts they will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always look lovely.”

Gettheetoanunnery Fri 23-Nov-12 13:20:41

I do get what you're saying, how it's damaging to young girls to be under that amount of pressure to look good. It just doesn't sit right with me to give them such a bad view of women who do wear makeup.

squoosh Fri 23-Nov-12 13:22:28

And 'one must never look one's best' is a Good Thing?

Preserved Iron Age men found in Ireland were found to have been wearing hair gel. Humans are amongst other things, vain, narcissistic creatures. Always have been.

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:30:25

WTAF?

I haven't said that women that wear make up are evil? I haven't said that make up is evil (probably). It's just that it's influence on society doesn't seem to me to be a positive one...

I certainly won't be bringing up my DD to think all people who wear make up are insecure or evil. <hey DD can you see that womans lack of confidence writ large in her motorway blusher>

I will however be stressing whenever possible that appearance isn't as important as what's inside. I think wearing make up myself while doing that would be hypocritical and undermining of the central message I want my daughter to take away. That is all....

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:32:13

People have been beauty queens for ever....yes almost certainly but we have also historically culled the weaker members of our society...and not allowed women to lead in religion.

I think we have moved beyond the point where "because we have always done it" is a reasonably argument for continuing.

Diana2000 Fri 23-Nov-12 13:36:07

Heavy make up doesn't make you look more attractive, it makes you look insecure, shallow and desperate to hang on to the remnant of your youth.

Nasty as well as sanctimonious.

squoosh Fri 23-Nov-12 13:37:40

If people want to wear makeup that is the only 'reasonable argument' they need.

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:55:36

"Nasty as well as sanctimonious" yeah...the truth is often perceived that way by people who don't want to hear it.

Regardless of the society based pros and cons, heavy make up really does look shit....or have people been so brainwashed they now think that special fake tan day glo orange look is attractive??

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:57:45

If people want to smoke then the only reasonable argument they need is that they want to?

If people want to eat themselves spherical then the only reasonable argument they need is that they want to?

If people want to eat themselves kill their NDNl then the only reasonable argument they need is that they want to?

hmmm no, not really feeling that one.

Wanting to do something doesn't automatically give you the right to do it ...especially if it harms society as a whole....

obvs you have the right at the moment...but who knows in the future...

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:58:47

sorry I started speaking in tongues in the middle of that post...oh well I am sure the point was blisteringly clear as always...

ICBINEG Fri 23-Nov-12 13:59:29

I would like to point out that is really isn't okay to eat your next door neighbours even if you really really REALLY want to. <legal disclaimer>

squoosh Fri 23-Nov-12 14:05:45

You're sounding more than just a little silly now, smoking and binge eating have obvious ill effects on people's health. Makeup doesn't.

And yes, I realise you're not 'feeling' it, you've made that quite clear. But I'm afraid until you manage to set up your own dictatorship it is and will continue to be the reality.

waterlego Fri 23-Nov-12 14:42:52

I do worry about our societal obsession with physical appearance. Not to the point of banning anything but I do find it very sad (and I mean sad in its true sense) that there is quite a number of women saying they 'need' make-up, or 'can't' leave the house without it. It gives the impression that those women are trapped in doing something they might not otherwise do, just because it is expected.

I wear a bit of concealer and mascara if I'm going out in the evening or to a special event. Because I don't wear make-up at other times, it makes me look quite different and people notice. I like that. If people wear a full application of it every day, they look no different on a night out.

Luckily for me I can't wear eyeshadow or lipstick anyway because I have quite small features so they make me look old/drag queenesque.

Quite affronted by a couple of posters saying they want to 'get their hands on' women they see not wearing make-up. Yes, how very dare they enter a public space with no make-up on. hmm Makeover? MASSIVELY patronising.

Diana2000 Fri 23-Nov-12 15:08:39

ICBINEG you said women who wear makeup look "insecure, shallow and desperate". That's an extremely bitchy comment.

And IMO it rather detracts from your argument that not wearing makeup makes you a better person (harming society as a whole, etc).

FamiliesShareGerms Fri 23-Nov-12 15:13:14

I really wish that I had decent skin, so I could do the make up free thing, but adult acne (and scars from teenage acne) mean "no make up" actually means concealer at the least.

SinisterBuggyMonth Fri 23-Nov-12 15:38:23

Ditto above. I have hellish rosacre, coupled with very pale grey eyes on a bad day I could pass for a Zombie. When I put make up on I am not trying to emulate a tv celeb or model, I am trying to effect the same normal skin as my friends, family and collegues. I dont need to be told by someone else on tv, mags or a thread about how I should be presenting myself, I know what works for me at this time of life and it camouflage, when I was younger it was all about emphasising, self expression and exageration, lots of glitter and alot more fun. I wouldnt force a make over on someone else because its not up to me. But I have lived with my face all my life and it entirely up to me how I present it to the outside world.

Oblomov Fri 23-Nov-12 15:53:05

Some women in the playground of a monring wear far too much make-up. It does seem to be caked on. I think that actually looks worse than none at all.
There are lots of natutally beautiful women in ds's playground, that I am positive wear not a speck of make-up. They are the beautiful ones I most notice.

Oblomov Fri 23-Nov-12 15:55:16

I too think that heavy make-up is really quite nasty and does the wearer no favours at all.

waterlego Fri 23-Nov-12 16:38:10

I realise that the perception is that those of us who say we don't wear make-up are somehow naturally beautiful enough to not need it. For some, I'm sure that is the case, but not for me! Like others here, I suffered acne on my chin and around my mouth (hormonal, apparently) since I was about 18 (had really clear skin as a teenager, ironically). Now, it is mostly under control but there is a lot of scarring. I'm sure some people must look at me and be horrified that I'm not wearing foundation but I have to make myself not think about that because it doesn't matter.

I am a very, very ordinary looking woman. I look my age and some of the time, I probably look quite ugly really. It is easier to be make-up free in the summer because a bit of colour makes all the difference. My winter skin is pretty grey and patchy. I currently have a couple of little spots. People are just going to have to deal with looking at it because it's just me. Luckily, the people in my life who love me don't seem to mind. They might all secretly be wishing I would have a 'makeover' but happily, none of them has ever said so.

TheDoctrineOfSnatch Fri 23-Nov-12 18:06:57

I agree with waterlego - the two posters saying that they want to stop women on the street without makeup and give them a makeover shocked me.

I don't wear make up except occasionally when going out, and even then not every time i go out. That is a conscious decision on my part - it could hardly not be, given the overwhelming norm is to wear it, as supported by the proportions on this thread. It isn't because I'm baffled by make up, or need help with make up. If someone came up and offered me a makeover because I wasn't wearing any make up, I'd be very alarmed by their presumption.

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