To think protesters shouting"stop killing children"should have thought twice about doing it outside the only two kids shoe shops in town?

(133 Posts)
PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 18:12:25

Trying to get my head round this so advice please.

I have a lot of sympathy re the Palestine situation however today I just had to get ds 9 new shoes.Soooo I dragged the 3 dc(9,9and7) to the only two kids shoe shops in town outside of which was a protest re the current situation in Palestine.The above slogan was pretty much the only thing being shouted.

One of my dc is very sensitive.Whilst we try and explain world events there are things we have to shield him from as he worries,gets scared and can think too much.The other 2 are fine.

Soooo this protest was literally below the window of said shoe shop.Ds froze and bombarded me with questions which I tried to answer.He has since been asking a lot this afternoon re "where do they kill children,why" etc.You couldn't really escape it in town as it was up and down the same street(to be fair the only place to protest).

Now I know my dc are lucky enough to live in a safe country and I know kids shouldn't be sheltered forever from nasty world events(I've explained the crux of the 2nd WW,Afganistan etc)however surely it's up to a parent as to how much you expose kids to and kids differ.

Maybe the phrasing should have been changed?

I'm very pro the right to protest though so can't quite get my head round whether I was right to be annoyed.

Maybe I wasn't,thoughts please.smile

NoraGainesborough Sat 17-Nov-12 18:17:24

What other buildings were around, why was the protest there in first place?

But i do agree that its not the best place for shouting about killing kids. Many kids may become scared or distressed and may not understand.

I also think about the right to protest is good. Its weird one.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 18:19:48

I think the right to free speech and the right to protest trumps your child's right not to be scared.

NoraGainesborough Sat 17-Nov-12 18:24:58

See i am not convinced.

i think a child should be able to go shoe shopping without being scared.

I am really on the fence with this one.

Will wait and see how this thread develops

WilsonFrickett Sat 17-Nov-12 18:26:33

I do sympathise because my DS would have reacted the same way. But children are being killed, aren't they? The point of a protest is to provoke a reaction. And I think there's also a different cultural tradition at play too, where protesters are generally more vociferous. So I don't think anyone is being U in this situation. <picks splinters out of bum>

quoteunquote Sat 17-Nov-12 18:27:01

At 9,9 and seven you can talk to them about what is happening in the world, if you explain that these adults protesting are very upset because children are being hurt in Palestine, your children won't be frightened of them, they clearly care about children.

Mine all watch newsround from an early age, if you go iplayer you will find a newsround episodes coving the issue, watch it with them and they will understand why the people were shouting today.

SamSmalaidh Sat 17-Nov-12 18:27:10

The situation in Palestine is pretty scary, do you really want no one to talk about anything unpleasant in an area where children might be present?

If they had photos of murdered children then fair enough.

lastSplash Sat 17-Nov-12 18:37:37

I can see why you were annoyed, but it is a wee bit unreasonable to expect the demonstration to tone down what they're saying because kids might be around and upset. Children are being killed horrifically in Gaza and it needs to be shouted about. It is up to you to comfort your DS and explain as much as you think appropriate to him, so that he isn't confused, scared and upset (and maybe to get him out of the situation quickly and leave shoe buying until another day).

I took my then 7 year old DS to protests every day outside the Israeli embassy during the last all out assault on Gaza in 2008 and there were younger kids there today - all ages. I realise that all kids are different though and lots would totally not cope with that. I'm not sure if there are kids shoe shops opposite the embassy, will have to check on google maps...

I'm going to be brutal. There are children dying in the ME and their right to have their story told trumps your DS's right to shoe shop in peace. I DO sympathise but these protesters are trying to stop someone else's child being killed. We are very lucky to live somewhere safe.

MikeOxard Sat 17-Nov-12 18:59:53

So, some people's children are being killed, but the thing that upset you the most was that it would have been awkward for you to shop for shoes at another time or have your child hear a protest? You are being unbelievably unreasonable. Have some perspective, and a heart ffs!

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 20:24:11

Mike don't think you read my op.

I certainly do have a heart however I do think pretty much only shouting "stop killing children" outside 2 well known kids shoe shops was perhaps slightly unnecessary.There were plenty of other things that could have been shouted.We weren't the only ones trying to stop our kids from hearing it.

We're pretty good re telling our dc about things that are happening in the world.With dtwin 1 however we have to be careful as he worries a lot.If I wanted him to be exposed to such graphic thoughts I'd let him watch News 24 but I don't I filter Newsround etc.

I guess I'm wondering what the cut off is re exposing kids to the evils of the world-so no need for the histrionics Mike.

MikeOxard Sat 17-Nov-12 21:06:55

I did read it, and what it amounts to is "I understand people's children are dying, but for God's sake don't these people realise I needed to buy some shoes?". Yabu.

MulledWineOnTheBusLady Sat 17-Nov-12 21:12:19

They ANBU to frame their protest how they want, but YANBU to find their chosen methods offputting. Free speech in action. If people want their protests to draw support/raise funds/spread awareness or whatever their aim they need to think hard about their message, time and place, likely audience etc. They didn't in this case, result you are slightly pissed off rather than informed/enthused to contribute etc.

Not much help for your DS I know.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:19:01

Wasn't what I was saying at all.

What I was saying was I understand the need for free speech but there are plenty of other things to yell in order to argue the cause for Palestine when going past a kid's shoe shop.Wouldn't have been that difficult to tone it down a bit.

The vast majority of 7 and 9 year olds in this country know nothing about "killing children"-not sure they have to to be frank.

squeakytoy Sat 17-Nov-12 21:20:51

I think your children are old enough to start learning that there is a big world out there and some of it isnt very nice in other places, and that they can then learn to appreciate how bloody lucky we are in this country..

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:23:10

They know all that and do-however hearing "stop killing children" shouted over and over again simply wasn't needed.

SamSmalaidh Sat 17-Nov-12 21:25:23

You do sound very precious.

missymoomoomee Sat 17-Nov-12 21:25:29

Count your blessings that you only have to hear some shouting about it, the kids out there are living it and have no respite or way to get away, they aren't getting shielded and gently eased into the fact there are these horrific things happening in the world.

Kids get exposed to the evils of the world when they do, its your job as a parent to explain it, but to a certain extent you can't control it.

I think yanbu and can completely see where you're coming from op.

I called the police to complain the other day when a group of anti abortionist protesters were protesting on a busy high street at a time where many schools and nurseries were turning out for the afternoon.

They had placards which came just under their chins with photos of dead foetuses on.

I personally don't think you should have pictures like that literally in children's faces as they walk past.

The police did go down but they had gone by then- unless they are breaching the peace there's nothing to stop it

BarryShitpeas Sat 17-Nov-12 21:29:00

Yabu

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:31:16

Yes we're lucky we're not living with however I'm not entirely sure of the benefit of scaring kids that aren't living with it.

I'm precious as it shook up my son.I wasn't the only parent trying to shelter their kids from it.There were several others with many a lot younger.

There are many,many other slogans they could have shouted.We may have hung around to listen if there were.As it was we hustled the kids into the shop asap.

I don't generally take to scaring my dc as a way of educating.

I wouldn't want my child to hear 'stop killing children' repeatedly, maybe 'Stop children dying in Palestine' would be more appropriate to get the message across.

I know my 6 year old would have thought that there were people in those shops that were killing children and that would have scared the shit out of him, and not making anyone sympathetic of the situation.

And before anyone asks, he does know what is happening in the middle east and across the world.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:34:03

On a Saturday morning on a crowded high street outside 2 kids shoe shops I think it could have been toned down.On a week day somewhere else then perhaps it could be more graphic.

It's a shame as I don't think it helped their cause.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:39:13

Exactly wewere if I didn't water down major news events this particular son wouldn't leave the house.

As it is we've had to get loads of books out to explain and show that the whole of America(and the rest of the world)isn't continually devastated by hurricanes,earthquakes and tsunamies.

Kids(some more than others)take things very literally as they're young and can't put things into perspective not having life experience or adult years.

apostropheuse Sat 17-Nov-12 21:41:37

YABU

For all of the reasons listed above.

The children in Palestine aren't just scared because of something they've heard on a Saturday afternoon shopping expedition. They are being killed. They are watching their peers being killed. Someone is trying to raise awareness to help these poor little children.

differentnameforthis Sat 17-Nov-12 21:42:30

I think the right to free speech and the right to protest trumps your child's right not to be scared

Disagree! Children don't need to know about a lot of the issues in this world at 7 & 9. Every child should be able to go shopping without being scared. My 9yr would have been quite upset at this. We do discuss issues like this, but it is important that it is discussed in the right way & bombarding children with these issues is wrong.

differentnameforthis Sat 17-Nov-12 21:44:19

And they obviously targeted the children shoe shops for maximum effect! I.e parents are more likely to care etc, without even thinking of the effect on the kids. That isn't on. I am all for protest, but you have to be considerate not to upset little ones like this.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:47:13

And Apostrophe scaring kids in this country does what exactly?

It certainly didn't help their cause as we legged it along with every other parent in the vacinity.If they had chosen slogans more appropriate for a Saturday morning on a busy high street packed with young families they would have raised far more awareness.

Every child in the world doesn't need the horrors of war shoved in their faces.Teaching children the evils of the world needs to be handled carefully.

So terrifying every sensitive child is reasonable and appropriate? I REALLY don't think so.

Raise awareness by all means but don't scare children. Reasonable and necessary. Child friendly information would go a long way to helping.

I've done my fair share of demonstrations and have seen people shouting inappropriate gubbage being lynched because it doesn't help anyone!

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:49:01

Hearing "stop killing children" repeated over and over didn't confront my dc with harsh realities it scared the shit out of him.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bluestocking Sat 17-Nov-12 21:53:36

Are you in Exeter, by any chance?

healstorturepeople Sat 17-Nov-12 21:55:34

Just be glad you and your children don't live in Palestine. Fgs your precious children will survive a scary protest. People are dying Fgs and you care about a protest being held in the wrong location. Get a grip on reality love. It's a tough bloody world out there.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 21:57:19

Errr thankfully Lunatic in this country we do.

Being slightly considerate of the young audience would have helped the cause far more.I grabbed a leaflet and zoomed off,pretty sure many others didn't bother.

How about educating people as to what is happening. What happened to stuffing giving people info? I feel old. Demos I went to always gave info out to help their cause.

RevoltingPeasant Sat 17-Nov-12 21:59:45

Hmm OP I also think you are being precious.

If they set up camp outside a nursery or something and shouted that - maybe. But from the sounds of it they were in a public high st and just happened to be outside a couple of shops aimed at children. Obviously I don't know the layout, but that's how it sounds.

If they were actively targetting children as their audience? - I'd say YANBU. But I think they just happened to be in public. You can't control what people say in public as long as it's not actively racist/ threatening.

And I do think it's worth being frank about: 'children are dying' has nowhere near the impact of 'stop killing children' - that's the point. Sorry, but other people's right to make a really serious, necessary political point is not trumped by your child's right to buy shoes in peace and quiet. It just isn't.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:00:51

Oh I know that thanks heals as do my dc but I'm educating them in a way that suits them as children.

There is no benefit to scaring kids when educating them(schools generally handle the 2nd WW carefully) and as I said it made many parents leave thus kind of hindering the cause.

crashdoll Sat 17-Nov-12 22:01:57

Protesters shout to get maximum impact. You could take your son away and explain to him. There are some children in the world who don't have that.

And seriously this "Every child should be able to go shopping without being scared." WTF? Children starving to death and being killed and you're worried about a child being a bit scared by shouting??!

RevoltingPeasant Sat 17-Nov-12 22:02:01

Errr thankfully Lunatic in this country we do.

Well, no, we don't. For example, my sister nearly died of cancer when I was about 4-5. My parents didn't have a choice about explaining death, hospitals, and fatal illnesses.

Plenty of people die in this country from violent causes. I live in a city with a large naval base and parents here have to go away on tours of duty. Their children may well have to learn about death and violence early.

missymoomoomee Sat 17-Nov-12 22:02:56

Polka we can't control when our kids are exposed to death and violence even in this country, I know my kids have been exposed to death from a very early age, I know many kids who have been exposed to violence either by witnessing accidents or domestic violence or have been on the receiving end of it. Must be nice to live in your world.

Bluestocking Sat 17-Nov-12 22:04:17

Something very similar was happening in Exeter this morning. I don't think the protesters in Exeter would have been aware that they were between the town's only two children's shoe shops - they were almost all students, the protest was clearly student-organised, and students would be utterly unaware of the significance of being between two children's shoe shops - they would just have been aware that they had placed themselves where Princesshay joins the High Street, and thus where they would be seen by most people.
It's a shame if your children felt alarmed, but I do think that nine is old enough to be beginning to be aware that horrible things happen in the world, and that some people feel strongly enough about them to protest in public.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:05:01

Crash certainly wasn't the shouting but the content.They've heard many a demo we've stuck around for.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:08:15

Yes Missy it ishmm.Have worked with kids who have witnessed violence.Thankfully they are in the minority and I'm simply not seeing the point of all kids coming face to face with it.

socharlotte Sat 17-Nov-12 22:08:54

You are being unreasonable and precious.Some kids are actually suffering this horror and you are objecting to your precious little bunnies even hearing about it!

Bluestocking Sat 17-Nov-12 22:10:10

But, Polka, your kids weren't coming into contact with actual violence - merely with people shouting about it. Completely different.

missymoomoomee Sat 17-Nov-12 22:12:02

We don't all get the chance to decide when and where to tackle the subject of death or violence

Errr thankfully Lunatic in this country we do.

WTF are you going on about then?

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 17-Nov-12 22:15:04

YABU.

The protestors may well have been there for the reason that children will ask their parents questions about what they're protesting about. Adults are quite adept at ignoring things they don't want to see. The protestors are trying to make people think.

Trust me,having your house shelled and child killed is far more horrific than your dc being a bit upset when shoe shopping.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:16:29

<sigh> no as I said they have heard watered down versions but they haven't heard "stop killing children" shouted over and over in their busy high street.

Still not hearing the actual point of young kids hearing this phrase shouted over and over.What benefit will it have made?As far as I could see most families didn't stay to listen and kids hearing it will have got completely the wrong end of the stick.I doubt many families had a long in depth discussion re the ME after with their young dc after.

When I've discussed it with my dc they may have seen non graphic footage of both countries and we've tried to explain the situation as a whole.Far more beneficial than hearing "stop killing children" shouted over and over again.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:19:10

Missy my point is in this country we don't have to rub kids faces in it-thankfully.

I'm kind of old school like wewere and thought it rather amateur I guess-and counterproductive.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 22:19:59

Really OP your post does make you sound incredibly precious.As mentioned above children are being slaughtered but sod them you just NEED to buy your privileged children a new pair of shoes???
How depressing that instead of empathy and sadness for the cause you are complaining about how your children will be affected.
At 9 your child is old enough to be taught about the situation, yes it's not how you would have chosen to do it, but I would have thought your child seeing that there are people passionate enough to stand up for injustice would give them some faith in humankind. Perhaps the more you shelter them the less likely they are to trust you to tell them the truth.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsDeVere Sat 17-Nov-12 22:22:18

I do sympathise OP. My DS has ASD and would be going on about this for months after if it happened to us.
I understand where you are coming from.
However I think in this case it is so hideously awful, the tragedy is so immense, I would suck it up and put up with the backlash from DS.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:26:20

No Done where did I say there was no empathy?Think I said quite the opposite.

It was a busy high street.Ds was upset,there were people everywhere and we couldn't stop to talk so all I could say was it's nothing you need to worry about thus belittling the protest and not teaching him anything.

We've had far more informative discussions at home.

If a variety of intelligent, creative slogans more suited to the many young families present were used we'd have hung around and been able to have a far more productive and empathetic conversation.

defuse Sat 17-Nov-12 22:28:10

Yes, we do not like to expose our children to such things, particularly if they are sensitive. I do feel for your dc OP, but i also feel so much more for the child who lost their life i Gaza and i am glad the protesters are shouting about it, even if it is outside 2 kids shoe shops! You could return to that shoe shop another time, your dc will hopefully be ok, can we say the same for the children in Gaza?

missymoomoomee Sat 17-Nov-12 22:30:06

Well Polka actually sadly for my children, and many many other children in this country death does play a part in their daily lives. So, yes, their faces are being 'rubbed in it' daily. You really do sound like your children are wrapped up in cotton wool.

The protesters wanted to raise awareness, you are talking about it. I don't see how their method was counter productive at all.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:32:07

Defuse as I said(repeatedly)nothing against it being shouted about but a lot against that particular phrase being hollered over and over again which seemed to have zero benefit.I heard a lot of people(young and old)getting quite annoyed.

As I said a variety of creative,intelligent phrases more suited to the audience would have served their cause far more.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 22:33:08

But OP you say you have 'sympathy' as long as you don't have to deal with any of the messy details.
I would understand your distaste more if your DC were younger but IMO they are at a good age to discuss these hideous events.
Had the protestors watered down their slogans it wouldn't have had much effect...the whole point is to make people stop and listen YOU chose to hurry your children along, that is fine it is up to you how to educate your children but you can't keep them sheltered forever.
What is happening in the ME is terrifying for those who live there...there are soo many things your Dc's can learn from this.
Why post in AIBU if you're not interested in being told you are?

HoolioHallio Sat 17-Nov-12 22:34:39

Having just watched news pictures from Gaza, with the broken body of a small child with shrapnel in her head, YABU. Children are dying. It's the shitty, crappy world we live in and it's up to you as a parent to explain and reassure your kids.

SirBoobAlot Sat 17-Nov-12 22:36:48

I understand what you mean. I have a mental health condition that makes me overly emotive, and I'm sure situations like this were a nightmare for my parents when I was young enough to hear but not understand IYSWIM. (Am not suggesting your DS has a mental health condition, BTW!) I still have to be careful about external things having a large impact on me. So know what you mean.

We are lucky that we have the right to free speech, yes. BUT simply shouting extremes out at people is not going to achieve any understanding or sympathy for any cause. It never makes sense.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:39:32

Nope Missy far from wrapped in cotton wool,they have a v good world understanding actually.Absolutely no need for unpleasant world events to not be handled carefully when teaching children.

Nope we didn't talk about it as we hustled him away(along with many other people).As I said if it was more family friendly we(and many others would have hung around)and maybe signed their petition.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 22:44:09

Has your Dc asked you about it since? What did you say?
If not what are you worried about?

missymoomoomee Sat 17-Nov-12 22:45:22

Then I don't see the issue, if they have a good world understanding surely you have explained similar events to them before now that you could have referred back to.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 22:45:32

And really how can children being slaughtered be 'family friendly'?
It should never be.....

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:47:51

Done I am interested but I guess I was hoping the point of shouting that particular phrase over and over would have been identified but it hasn't so I'm guessing the thread has answered itself for me.

We had no choice but to hustle ds away.There was little point re staying-he was scared,upset and wanted to go.That is my whole point.There were several families with younger kids cross and some oaps v hacked off

We haven't sheltered them from the ME at all,they know a lot(probably far more than most kids their age) and are very informed but not in a graphic way that makes them want to shut the whole issue out and run for the hills.

Educating doesn't need to be graphic or scary.

Maybe I value well thought out protests that reach their audience(this wasn't one)so thanks for many posts,has been useful.

SirBoobAlot Sat 17-Nov-12 22:51:02

No but the horror of what is going on can be explained better than just screaming "STOP KILLING CHILDREN", surely?

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:52:27

Done there are plenty of ways to shout the message across.I don't buy that "stop killing children" is the onlyphrase one can shout to protest against the situation.

OldMumsy Sat 17-Nov-12 22:55:57

The Palestinians have brought this upon their own heads. They are not the innocent parties they want to appear as. They have showered Israel with rockets targeted on civilians and the world has not given a shit. Now they are reaping the whirlwind.

And your shoe buying is trivial in this case.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 22:58:16

Yup I guess the shoes were neither here nor there.It was however a poor choice of venue to shout such a phrase over and over again.

thingy1 Sat 17-Nov-12 23:00:22

So what was the point of asking AIBU?

Bizarre.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 23:00:37

Can it SirBoob? This isn't a discussion in the House of Commons. It is meant to make people stop,think and be horrified quickly and effectively to be moved into action. It didn't work with the OP because she was concerned for her child but it may have made a great difference in getting people to stop and pay attention.
The OP's child is 9 I'm sure he would have understood most slogans.
Don't you think it is a little precious to complain about a child maybe slightly getting a little upset (although the op doesn't say he has spoken about it since) when there are children actually DYING!
Please get some perspective.

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:01:11

I agree it is not the only phrase the protestors could have said but it is arresting, isn't it and makes the point clearly and succinctly.

I can understand they OP's concern for a younger sensitive child but surely a 9 yr old is old enough to explain why those people are protesting? My 8 yr old knows what is going on, albeit he has my interpretation and what he sees on the news as he is too young to appreciate the historical reference behind what is going on today.

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:02:33

The most horrific image I've seen on this was the poor BBC journalist cradling the body of his 11 month old baby. Stop killing children is the only thing to say here imvho.

missymoomoomee Sat 17-Nov-12 23:03:24

What was the point in asking on here at all.

The majority of people have said YABU and you are just repeating why you aren't BU. You were clearly never going to listen to opinions that differed from yours anyway.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 23:03:59

And OldMumsy I'm not sure an 11month old baby boy getting killed deserved the 'whirlwind of retaliation' you so sensitively described. There have been innocents slaughtered on both sides. Lets not turn this into an Israel vs Palestine debate.

madwomanacrosstheroad Sat 17-Nov-12 23:05:49

Given the fact that the west is a massive player in the middle east, that western companies are profiting from selling their weapons there (which do kill children) and western politicians and nato troops are enforcing the political, economic and strategic interests of the west, to ask them to "stop killing children" makes perfect sense to me.
My children are getting upset as well but i try to explain to them what is happening and that we all need to try to do what we can to create a world that is different. I take them to the demonstrations.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 23:09:27

Thing is Bis there were kids of all ages.

Done I simply don't see the need re that particular phrase,nobody hung around.

He did ask repeatedly about it as I mentioned below.

I tried to make light of it to calm him down whilst referring to what we'd discussed previously.Many I know wouldn't have even bothered.

defuse Sat 17-Nov-12 23:10:54

Yes words and images have deep impact. I still cannot forget the images of israel's previous assault where 3 tiny bodies of dead babies were wrapped in white sheets being carried in their relatives' arms to be buried.

Which creative and intelligent phrases would have been more suited to the audience?

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:12:20

Polka I was referring to your query about your sensitive child. It would be harder if he is 4 but by 9 he is perfectly old enough to understand your explanation. What did you say by way of explaining the protest phrase?

OldMumsy Sat 17-Nov-12 23:13:34

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:13:50

If my 8 yr old asked repeatedly for me to explain something I would take that as a sign that my explanation was inadequate and I would do my best to answer his questions.

OldMumsy Sat 17-Nov-12 23:15:21

And it was lucky I wasn't there as it would have escalated as I would have not held back.

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:15:28

OldMumsy really? Didn't look like that to me in the news reports I saw. Helpful for those in the West to think that though as it makes all that is going on much more platable.

thingy1 Sat 17-Nov-12 23:18:15

"They are not like us"

Vile remark oldmumsy.

defuse Sat 17-Nov-12 23:22:00

Mumsy Is it better to kill "them" all off as they are not like "us". The savages.

Doneinagain Sat 17-Nov-12 23:22:14

It didn't take long for some good old fashioned racism to rear it's ugly head.(not you OP)

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:23:25

Clearly Oldmumsy knows lots of Palestinians living in Gaza to make such a specific statement. I don't know any personally but I know plenty of Arabs in a number of different countries and the unsurprising thing is (at least to me) they are exactly like us.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 23:24:17

Defuse I don't know I'm not a ME expert but I'm sure plenty of others are.

Bisjo I did.When we got home some time later and he asked why they said it I said the people were angry and trying to cause a reaction thus their choice of words.I said that Israel and Palestine were fighting again and some children got killed,that they didn't mean all children.When he asked if children here got killed again later,I said not by bombs generally no. Repeated as necessary(he verbalises a lot when worried).

Sorry if that isn't good enough but it's what suits him.Still not getting the benefit of us(ds and I) having this convo over and again.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 23:24:37

What's going on with MN and racism today?

FFS. "Not like us".

difficultpickle Sat 17-Nov-12 23:30:12

But children here in the UK have been killed by bombs, that is very recent history. You know your ds but I think you are being incredibly overly sensitive when there are far bigger issues at stake here.

WilsonFrickett Sat 17-Nov-12 23:35:36

I think you are missing the point. It was a protest. Not a public information stand at the village fete. People were protesting about children being killed.

As I said unthread, I do sympathise and my DS would have been very upset (ASD). But my safe, comfortable, privileged DS feelings don't take precedence, challenging as they may be to deal with.

PolkadotCircus Sat 17-Nov-12 23:46:25

It's not a general happening which the statement suggested.

Take the sensitivity on board however I just think if the whole thing was handled better it would have done far more for the cause.

Off to bed now,not flouncing.Thanks for the posts,I will take many on board(a few I won't).I guess it was pretty unanimous that I wasn't right to be annoyed.Having a few who think like me make it harder to get my head round but I guess overall the general consensus of opinion was the need to suck it up so I will.

Thanks all.smile

GothAnneGeddes Sun 18-Nov-12 02:34:16

FFS have Stormfront mounted an invasion of Mumsnet?

I thought about reporting the "not like us" post, but actually it's better to let it stand, because attitudes like that are exactly why children are dying.

As for children in the UK/ the West not being exposed to death/violence, I come from a loving, stable family, lived in nice areas, but from the age of 8 learned how to check our car for bombs, as that was part of our reality.

OP YABU.

pinkoyster Sun 18-Nov-12 07:19:44

OP, YABU. And precious. What else could they say that would impact people more?

oldmumsy the comments you've made are simply vile. Shame on you. The 11 month old baby who died was the son of a journalist reporting for the BBC. What fault did he have? I also thought of reporting your post, but thought it's better for people to see the hate-filled racist you very obviously seem to be.

Can someone explain to me what impact a few people shouting outside a children's shoe shop will have on the political situation in the Middle East? Because this sort of protest/demonstration has always seemed rather pointless to me.

Most people are already aware of what is happening. Wouldn't a London-based protest be more effective? I appreciate that not everyone can get to London but I'm thinking of demonstrations like the 'Stop The War' ones - one large, centralised march is surely more effective than lots of little ones on random high streets?

crescentmoon Sun 18-Nov-12 09:23:34

i wish the gulf arabs would just refuse to sell oil. just do an oil embargo. non violent protest that will have more impact than constantly building gaza only to watch the israelis destroy all the work again. sanctions a la USA style.

or threaten to make the price of oil be sold in euros rather than dollars. all 'those' people care about is money and the bottom line.

TandB Sun 18-Nov-12 09:29:57

OP, I'm sorry your son was upset, but this is an upsetting issue. It would be a little more appropriate if you directed your anger at the fact that things like this happen at all for our children to hear about and be distressed about, not at the fact that some people chose to protest about it in a place that interfered with your shoe shopping.

Children aren't just hustled straight into a child-related shop and out of the town centre again - there would be children anywhere in the town centre. It is for you to decide if you want to change your plans to avoid your son being exposed to something you feel to be inappropriate for him - it's not for the protesters to move, or change their tactics. "Stop killing children" might be emotive, but it goes straight to the heart of the issue.

If you had asked if you were unreasonable to be upset that your son is finding it hard to deal with distressing world events, you would no doubt have got a good deal of support. But to be annoyed that the location of this protest prevented you taking your sensitive son shoe shopping - well, unfortunately, and with considerable sympathy, my response has to be that you need to get over it.

insancerre Sun 18-Nov-12 09:38:12

What a weird AIBU.
Yes, you YABU
You really can't protect your children from everything. Instead of ignoring issues, maybe you could try explaining things so he has a better understanding.

crescentmoon Sun 18-Nov-12 09:42:13

israeli tv airs gaza man's plea after his children are killed

just to humanise the abject grief that all people feel when their children are killed. even the israelis in the middle of the gaza conflict 2008 still aired this.

crescentmoon Sun 18-Nov-12 09:43:51

(click turn on captions to read the translation into english)

PolkadotCircus Sun 18-Nov-12 10:11:04

Goth I too grew up knowing about checking for car bombs(forces family inn the 80s),certainly nothing positive from growing up with that and at that age(my son has just turned 9)I didn't process it properly but just worried.Certainly wouldn't have seen the point of worrying all non forces kids needlessly.

As adults/teenagers then fine but kids sorry absolutely no point.Worry at such a young age stays with you forever and has a lasting impact on how you view the world.

Incanserre ds has a good understanding re world events(I have certainly never ignored anything as I think my posts show) but he is only just 9 so it is a child in the West's view.

I take on board the right to protest and our daily chores not being the upmost importance so yes I wbu to be annoyed.I don't however see as an aside to the protests the point of immersing kids thankfully not living with death and violence just because.

Yes they need educating about the wider world but there should be boundaries ie I haven't given my dc the full blown details of the JS case(they asked why he was on every newspaper)as they are far too young to deal with the details just because other kids live with such things.Ditto I have sheltered them from the full blown details of kids living in the ME.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 10:26:51

I don't see how you can compare not telling your dcs the full details of the JS case with not telling your dcs about details of children living in the ME confused

PolkadotCircus Sun 18-Nov-12 10:29:17

I haven't discussed the full gory details of either-that is the comparison.

insancerre Sun 18-Nov-12 10:32:48

They don't need the full gory details but they do need some sort of explanation that helps them make sense of the world.
Otherwise it is a big scary place that they will struggle in as adults.

PolkadotCircus Sun 18-Nov-12 10:35:34

See I think if you give too much too soon you make the world into a big scary place.

Have always given good explanations but to some degree slightly sugar coated(for want of a better expression).I guess the question is how much do you sugar coat?

OpheliaPayneAgain Sun 18-Nov-12 10:43:53

I find it amazing how many people dont watch the news as a family. Always have done, right from babies. Thats graphic.

Or have the car radio on, again words often paint a far more horrific picture.

Cant say, I, DH, or the kids are neurotic from watching planes go into towers, tsunamis, earthquakes, suicide bombers or crimewatch.

Gorey details need to be discussed in an age appropriate way. Mollycoddling doesnt help anyone in the long run, it tends to provde shock when the penny drops the world isn't a fluffy place. Frankly at 9 and 7, there are child soldiers, slaves and factory workers who are in a living hell. A few fruitloops in the street waving placquards hardly compares and ranks as a life changing trauma.

TBH, if at 9 and 7 children don't understand other children die, given the television in day time is littered with starving, fly blown African children drinking out of puddles accompanied by OXFAM/Save The Children begging adverts, they they must lead a very secluded life.

MrsDeVere Sun 18-Nov-12 10:50:41

The used to be a bloke who collected outside a local shop.
He would shout 'children with cancer!' over and over in a monotone.
It made me want to punch his head in.

PolkadotCircus Sun 18-Nov-12 10:56:10

Ophelia when you put it like that I guess you're right.

Re the radio.I stupidly had JV on discussing the woman mauled to death by her dd's dogs in the car.Didn't compute that they were all listening.

They're really jittery round dogs now.

Mine do worry re things like Hurricane Sandy.They saw footage and when dp and I were discussing a far off trip to the States ds(same son as in op) said he didn't want to go as the US had tornadoes,hurricanes etc.No way could I let him watch footage of the twin towers as we'd never get him on a plane.hmm

I guess kids differ.I shelter this son more(I'm suspecting he's perhaps very sensitive compared to most,he still shoots out of the room when Horrible Histories are on except he reads the books hmm),the other two are far more hardy.Guess this was why I was slightly annoyed-the control was taken out of my hands.

TandB Sun 18-Nov-12 11:00:27

The thing is, the world isn't a neat place where there is a way of reconciling everyone's needs and beliefs. The need for protest against attrocities does not mesh neatly with your need to help your son understand the world. the two things are, in this particular instance, at odds.

It is for you as his parent to decide how you best deal with this, not for others to change how they deal with the terrible thing they are protesting against.

None of us can order the world according to what we want for our children - we can only do our best to guide them through the realities of it. There are people on this thread who have had to help their children through far worse, life-changing things. It's not fair, but it just has to be dealt with.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 11:40:37

Don't you just give an age appropriate explanation which is enough to satisfy the questions asked? It is not difficult. I take my lead from ds on how much he wants to know, eg US elections is something he was very interested so we had lots of discussions about that.

PolkadotCircus Sun 18-Nov-12 12:15:19

Bisjo that is exactly what I do.

OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:27:15

I have actually lived in Israel and been subject to rockets being rained down on us indiscriminately so this colours my opinions of Palestinians and what was the PLO in those days. I understand that Hamas have picked up the baton and run with it since. I find it basically incomprehensible that so many right on Mumsnetters are so happy to support the people who have spent the last few years shelling civilians as long as they are Jewish.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 21:32:01

OldMumsy we get coverage of both sides of the story and form opinions accordingly. I'm not sure your government's position is helped at all by their actions of today in bombing foreign journalists in two separate places let alone the indiscriminate bombing of children. The fact that your government are at pains to point out that all the 120 rocket attacks today have been accurately targeted is shocking, since those targets are children.

OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:36:10

Whats your government bisjo, who are you?

OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:37:08

Those targets are Hamas leaders who have chosen to live amongst civilians, how brave.

xkittyx Sun 18-Nov-12 21:37:51

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OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:38:21

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OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:38:43

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OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:39:50

The only people who have tried to kill me personally have been Palestinians, why would I have any truck with them?

xkittyx Sun 18-Nov-12 21:40:10

Yep, that sounds about the right level for someone who defends the slaugher of babies.

OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:41:10

Have you ever been the region?

OldMumsy Sun 18-Nov-12 21:42:41

Have you ever been to the region? Have you ever lived there? And spoken to the people there?

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 18-Nov-12 21:43:40

So having never been to the region means a person can't have an opinion? Riiiight okay then OldMumsy.

Keep trying to justify your racist opinions in any way you can.

Meanwhile,right thinking individuals will continue to be horrified by the actions of both the Israeli government and Hamas.

Anifrangapani Sun 18-Nov-12 21:45:54

NopeMiss- unless you are are only buying the shoes made in this country you have a moral obligation to explain to you kids the whys and wherefores of of international geopolitics. My 2 - of 8 and 10 know exactly the implication of the cheap shoes, cheap oil, peace in Europe for the most part. They understand the implication of international outsourcing on the day to day level.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 21:47:28

OldMumsy I live in the UK and am British and was very lucky to survive being rather too close to one of the 7/7 bombers at the time he chose to detonate his bomb so I also know what it is like to be bombed and have witnessed and experienced that horror first hand. If you live in Israel I assume your government is the one that runs the country.

As I've said before I think your government's timing is extremely hmm coming a week after the US elections and clearly seeking to involve Iran in a wider ME conflict.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 21:48:39

OldMumsy, just seen your later posts. I assume you mean have I been to Gaza? No, I haven't. Have you?

littleducks Sun 18-Nov-12 21:48:51

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Viviennemary Sun 18-Nov-12 21:53:04

I would not have liked my children to hear somebody shouting this. Children of 7 and nine can do nothing about the situation in the middle east so I don't think they should need their awareness raised at that young age. That is my opinion. YANBU.

Anifrangapani Sun 18-Nov-12 21:55:11

Old mum - I think that many peoples understanding of the region is more nuanced than you give credit for. Killing people from either side is abhorent. Just because some person does willy waving does not mean that we have to say it is right. It is not race based critisism - it is a piss poor situation based on historical shite because people in Europe felt guilt after Ww2. It is not the Palistinians fault it is Europe & the US's . Having said that bombing the end out of each other is not the way forward.

difficultpickle Sun 18-Nov-12 21:58:20

I'm 47 and there is next to nothing I can do about the situation in the ME other than donate money. I have no issue at all about explaining what is going on (as best as I am able in such a complex issue) to my 8 yr old ds. Although he did ask questions I struggled to answer.

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

defuse Sun 18-Nov-12 22:36:16

oldmumsy , you mentioned earlier that "they" are not like "us" in the west....

You mentioned that you dont care a jot if palestinian babies die.

I am so pleased to say that "us" in the west are not like you!

Not in our name. Don't assume that "us" in the west will stand with you shoulder to shoulder because " they are not like us".

We are NOT on your side by default.

In fact, i am outraged by your government's complete disregard for palestinian babies, because we in the west recognise palestinians as humans too which you and your government does not!

LucieMay Sun 18-Nov-12 22:37:58

Ds is six and recently half watched (ie played while I watched a documentary on Ian Brady and the moors killings and I told him about it (just the basics, missed out a lot of the details). He said how terrible it was and we talked about it but he understood that doesn't often happen. They are old enough to have the situation explained to them, yabu and precious.

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