A shopkeeper hit my baby

(193 Posts)
LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:06:33

Firstly, we're not in the UK, and here people to beat smack their kids. It is socially normal.

DD (17 months) had a bit of a breakdown in the chemists. She was tired and hungry. I was holding her and a few things at the checkout. She grabbed something and threw it on the floor and screamed. I was just about to pay, so couldn't really leave. She grabbed my neck and clawed me, then bit my shoulder. The shop assistant rang up the amout, then insisted on the correct change, which delayed things further, DD still screaming. She put the stuff in a bag, handed it to me, them smacked DD on the arm. Not hard, but deliberately. At this point she was screaming but not hurting or grabbing.

I didn't know what to do. I just glared at her and walked off. DD carried on screaming.

What should I have done? WIBU to walk off, or should I have said something?

Celticlassie Sat 17-Nov-12 16:09:04

It's difficult to say without knowing where you are, but I'd probably have said something to her.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:09:33

Malaysia, KL.

GiserableMitt Sat 17-Nov-12 16:09:39

I'm also in a non-UK, child beating country and I would have smacked anyone who smacked my child. Fuck 'em.

picturesinthefirelight Sat 17-Nov-12 16:09:48

Well in the uk you could have her arrested for assault. I guess that's not an option there.

Was it a local shop or part if a larger group. Is there a head office or manager you could complain to?

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:10:46

She was quite young, not that it makes a difference but perhaps too young to have kids. I am still stunned to be honest. Especially that it was after everything - after the throwing, after the biting, just as we were leaving. Like she had thought about it, IYSWIM?

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:11:09

It was a chain.

WorraLiberty Sat 17-Nov-12 16:12:00

I dont' really understand your OP

Is beating legal in Malaysia or smacking because you do realise they're two completely different things don't you?

I would have gone a bit mental actually and told her never to touch my child again.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:12:02

Do you think I should? I didn't even get her name though. Maybe it's normal here? Surely not to smack other people's babies? Customers?

GiserableMitt Sat 17-Nov-12 16:12:02

Ah, ok. Different country but still a country where parents think it's ok to give their kids a good hiding so I stand by my post of giving the assistant a slap.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:12:55

I have no idea which is legal or otherwise, but I know discipline is on the much heavier side here.

GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 16:13:41

I'd have punched her head in.

NO-ONE smacks anyone elses child. NO-ONE.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:13:53

Also, the reason I'm sure she did it deliberately is that she reached out for her hand - I thought she was going to touch or stroke it as people often do here. DD withdrew her hand, so then she went in a second time but hit.

GiserableMitt Sat 17-Nov-12 16:18:21

If you've left the shop then too late, that ship has sailed. In future though, you have to decide there and then if you think it's acceptable for a stranger to hit your child and act accordingly.

Personally, if someone wallops my child I'll hit them harder.

bamboostalks Sat 17-Nov-12 16:19:28

In all my time in Malaysia, I never encountered anything like that. Only kindness to children. You make it sound commonplace there. It's certainly not normal for random folk to wallop your kids when they're having a melt down. I would have dealt with it there and then, I hope. Of course strangers should not assault your defenceless child.

I am shocked at the comments of hitting the woman back - not exactly the best example to set...
I have no idea about the laws of the country. Perhaps your best option is to visit a police station?

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:21:04

'Punched her head in'

Yes, yes that would have made you a much better person than she is wouldn't it.

I suppose then her adult daughter could have decided that no one has a right to punch her Mum and could have stabbed you.

Then your Mum decides no one has a right to touch her child and so she decided to kill her in her sleep.

Yes, yes this clearly the right way to do things!

How about saying please don't smack my child, walk off and report it straight away. Like any normal person.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:22:08

No, I didn't mean to suggest people hit random babies all the time here! Quite the opposite, they are really lovely most of the time.

However, I teach, and I know for a fact that a good amount of our Malaysian students are hit a lot at home.

GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 16:22:24


I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but I just would have done.

Don't agree, I don't care. I don't expect you to.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:23:34

well hopefully the lack of 40% tax will help you decide what to do. presumably nobody forced you to live in a tax free country?

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:24:36

It's 26% tax. What the hell has tax got to do with anything. And what makes you think it's tax free? I wish!

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:24:37

You clearly don't care.

Just as I suspect the lady in the shop didn't care and smacked the op's child.

Not so different really.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:25:42

maybe time to go home

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:26:11

Are you drunk or just a twat?

gingangoolie Sat 17-Nov-12 16:26:21

What is wrong with the posters who advocate further violence, in a proud way?
Just call back in and apologise for the uproar, explain she is a baby and you are against violence as a form of discipline.

GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 16:26:48

I believe in hit and hit back.

Don't compare me to someone who hits a child for no reason.

Floggingmolly Sat 17-Nov-12 16:27:55

What did you actually do at the time? Surely you didn't just turn on your heel and walk out without a word? confused

Dominodonkey Sat 17-Nov-12 16:28:04

While this behaviour by the shop assistant was unacceptable and rather bizarre you are mistaken in thinking that smacking is not common in Britain. Plenty of people smack their kids. It's only in the world of mumsnet where people feel that parents who smack are worse than Hitler or Pol Pot.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:30:21

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LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:30:47

I did. blush I looked at her in shock, frowned and left. Then stood outside thinking 'shit! What just happened there? What should I have done?' Then thought some more and came on here to see if anyone could tell me what I should have done.

You're right, either I should leave the country hmm or I should have said something at the time. There's no way I would have hit her!

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:30:57

Snoopy what the hell are you blithering on about. The tax that the OP pays or doesn't pay has nothing to do with this!

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:32:59

Snoopy, why are you purposefully trying to upset me? Is there something lacking in your life? Do you have a chip on your shoulder about people working abroad? Was daddy away a lot and forgot your birthday or something? Seriously, no-one likes nasty people.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:33:39

Ps (not that it should matter to you) I pay more tax and earn less here.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 16:34:38

Well I certainly don't smack my DD domino!!!! hmm

If another person laid a finger on my child, i don't honestly know what i would do but i would have probably gone absolutely ballistic, id like to think i woudlnt lamp them one, but i can't say 100% that i wouldn't. It wouldn't be the right thing to do but no-one lays a finger on my child, no-one!

WorraLiberty Sat 17-Nov-12 16:35:01

well hopefully the lack of 40% tax will help you decide what to do. presumably nobody forced you to live in a tax free country?

What the fuckety fuck does that have to do with anything?

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:35:19

And (in case you're too stupid to work it out yourself, which strikes me as plausible), the question I'm really asking is, 'is this the cultural norm?' I know smacking at home is, but is this? I really don't think so, but I can't be sure as this is the first time I've experienced it.

SugarplumMary Sat 17-Nov-12 16:35:47

Never use the shop again or go in person and complain very loudly to manager and explain you were to shocked at the time to do so or write to head office stating store, time of day and describe the shop assistant and what happened.

If anything liked that happens again make a scene - let your DC know that its not acceptable for a stanger to assult her. At very least that will make it clear to that shop assistant that such behavior is not to be done to your DC again.

I think that much would be the same as in the UK.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:35:59


GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 16:36:12

Snoopy what the hell are you blithering on about. The tax that the OP pays or doesn't pay has nothing to do with this!


snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:36:28

One expat to another, if you don't like it,leave. KL has great expats and miserablerbilnessess, it is what you make it and shock horror it isn't bloody surrey. We are all making our way

I DOubt it was a hard smack. i think you are getting on your high horse about nothing. and i think you were wrong to glare at shop keeper. tis a differnt country/different attitude. and it was on the arm, not around the face. . and as for hitting her back ... jeez.

you are being precious.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 16:37:28

I also can't promise i woudlnt have done exactly what you did too loops. Is your DD OK? im sure she is fine. I would probably make a complaint to the manager though. Its not acceptable. I know you are in a different culture and to a degree have to adopt a "when in rome" stance, but I think that this was unacceptable.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:37:47

I love it here, as it happens. I don't really like this three minute episode of it. hmm Does that mean I should leave?

Ps let me know where you are so I can avoid it.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:38:35

She's fine, it wasn't hard. But it was a shock (to me, not shocking enough to stop her screeching!)

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:38:45

I lived there for 4 years and never encountered the abuse that you are talking about

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:39:50

GhostShip your attitude to violence is ridiculous but I suspect you already know that.

I just hope you don't end up hitting someone one day who happens to carry a knife of some kind. Or do you also believe in stab and stab back and then everything is fine?

Anyway sorry OP. The lady in the shop shouldn't have laid a finger on your DD and I understand you just leaving the shop as you must have been feeling really harrassed. Ring up and make a complaint and never shop there again.

onetiredmummy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:39:55

Sounds to me like the girl just snapped, your DD was screaming all the time which is annoying if you're not used to it. Especially if she wasn't feeling well/hungover/ poorly ears etc

Don't use the shop again & let it go.

Dominodonkey Sat 17-Nov-12 16:40:19

Well I certainly don't smack my DD domino!!!!

Please read my post, I said plenty of people do, not everyone does.

WorraLiberty Sat 17-Nov-12 16:40:21

I lived there for 4 years and never encountered the abuse that you are talking about

And boiled eggs are runny

But again, what does that have to do with the OP's situation?

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:40:51

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LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:41:05

Do you mean the shopkeeper thing or kids being hit at home? The shop thing I expect (hope!) was a one-off. The kid thing, well if you were living the expat lifestyle that your bitter tax-related bullshit indicated, then you wouldn't have come across it I expect.
Not that I believe for a moment you have lived here if you think it's a tax-free haven.

fluffyraggies Sat 17-Nov-12 16:41:07

So the person who hit your child was just a young girl herself then? "perhaps too young to have kids". What, 13/14?

I think you're over reacting. Probably because you didn't handle it properly at the time OP. Sorry.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 16:42:09

I guess maybe the woman thought she was "helping"? If it wasn't a hard smack i certainly wouldn't be thinking of upping sticks and coming home grin Especially at its fecking freezing here at the moment and i can't afford to put the heating on!

SugarplumMary Sat 17-Nov-12 16:42:25

I don't think I'd give a fuck about cultural norms here - in a school yes in other peoples houses - then yes.

In a shop when you her mother were there dealing with it - I wouldn't worry so much. Even if it marks you out as a forginer least that staff member and others would know not to hit your DC again.

IslaValargeone Sat 17-Nov-12 16:43:21

Jesus H, I've heard it all now, opinion/support on here is tax bracket dependent?

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:43:40

No, I think she was probably about 18, at a guess. I'm not particularly upset, but shocked, mostly by my own reaction. Also bemused by snoopy's idiocy.

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:43:50

Snoopy this is clearly a touchy subject for you...Are you the shop assistant?

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:43:58

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5madthings Sat 17-Nov-12 16:44:38

i would have had a fit and asked to speak to the manager, if it was in the uk i would have called the police, it is NOT ok to smack a child full stop, let alone someone elses child. yes she was screaming but not much the op could do about that, the child is 17mths and they tantrum at that age which is what it sounds like the child was doing, at that age they need comforting and distracting if possible with a firm no for the biting, scratching etc, but she isnt deliberately being naughty.

and as for you live there you suck up it up, ummm no no matter where i live iw ouldnt suck up violence of any kind, let alone towards a baby!

GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 16:44:41

Jacqueline - I think it's a dangerous attitude to have but its the only way I have survived so far. After being bullied and beaten everyday at school, it only stopped when I hit back, harder.
Being older I've been attacked by drunken women and there's not a chance in hell I wouldn't defend myself. Sorry if some of us just don't sit back and let people kick the shit out of us without retaliation. And I wouldn't let someone do it to my defenseless child either.

Sometimes people need to experience what theyre doing to other people to learn a lesson.

And no, no-one should use weapons ever.

Like I said I don't expect you to agree with me, but being brought up on one of the roughest council estates in Wigan, you need to be tough.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:44:57

I'm a teacher. Salary is less than UK. Tax is higher. I'm hardly rolling in expat riches.

Not that that is anything to do with anything.

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:45:12

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LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:45:35

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snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:46:21

really? my teachers get £3000 a month

Dominodonkey Sat 17-Nov-12 16:46:25

"it is NOT ok to smack a child full stop"
In your opinion, it is not illegal in England.

However, I can't imagine many parents (if any) would think it ok for a complete stranger to smack their child.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 16:46:45

Have you any friends from the area? Maybe have a word with them and see what they think about it?

Snoopy, are you on something?

do you spose shop keepers did this sort of thing in the 1950s britain, cos they may well have. it is a different world, different cultures. and she was 18 and i assume thought it was the thing to do with a toddler having a tantrum.
i doubt you have a wealth of shops where you live, <<assuming>> so i would just put it down to cultural differences. <<keep tantruming toddlers in pushchair/away from shop keepers in future >>

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:47:26

Ah! That makes sense! You are still at school. Enigma solved.

Yes, it's relatively "normal" for KL. People there are far less precious about others touching or reprimanding their children. When mine were small, it was a common occurrence for waitresses (especially Chinese) to wipe their faces with a damp cloth after a meal (mine were 5 and 6 so not babies) or to take them away from the table for a walk, if the adults were still eating.

People would also touch their hair (and mine) and would have no hesitation in taking their hand to cross the road. I'm sure pharmacy assistant thought she was being helpful. Your child was being naughty, you were harassed therefore tap on the arm. Really no big deal, and you'll need to get used to people commenting on your parenting if you continue to live there.

Finally, I would say that I'd move back out in a minute. Wonderful country and great people. I don't know if you teach at an international school, but if so, I urge you to step outside the expat bubble and make local friends too.

JackThePumpkinKing Sat 17-Nov-12 16:49:22

This thread is batshit... grin

ProphetOfDoom Sat 17-Nov-12 16:49:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:50:18

No I recruit them amongst other staff. I am actually their boss.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:50:34

LOADS of shops here! It's the capital!

Anyhow, this thread isn't helping anyone. I'm going to bed.

FYI, though snoopy, no non-resident is exempt from tax. Better get your info sorted before you try trolling after homework time next time.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:51:11

In a different planet country, I presume?

Yeah course you are snoops...

JaquelineHyde Sat 17-Nov-12 16:52:51

Oh my God you recruit teachers.

Can you name your school Snoopy as I for one would like to make sure my children never, ever go to it if we end up in your part of the world!

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:53:06

Well, I have never heard of someone recruiting teachers and being their boss but not being a teacher. Unless you own schools? Possible, I suppose. hmm

WHY not keep a diary to remind you of the idioscyncracities <Sp>?? in malaysia, and hey, write a book/blog.

IslaValargeone Sat 17-Nov-12 16:54:20

And people wonder why home educating is on the increase.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:54:47

That's a great idea slarty. I did think of it shortly after coming but I'm writing a novel, working full time and have two small kids. Hands a bit full! But yes, will try to.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:55:42

What the Hell do you think I do? Do you really think I am a kid or is that just what the troll hunting people just assume? I would happily post my business caed here except my boss has told me not to. Teenager? I wish, I am 39.

RichardSimmonsTankTop Sat 17-Nov-12 16:56:15

Snoopy - you're being moronic.

OP - I would go back in and say something. Even if it's the cultural norm there, surely it's not normal to smack OTHER people's kids?

Are you able to speak the language well enough to get your point across?

I too am an expat and it's difficult trying to navigate your way through different cultural norms, so I get why you're uncertain.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:57:17


You recruit teachers
You are the boss of teachers
You have a boss

In my experience, that makes you a...


LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 16:58:29

Hahahaha! so you had a conversation with your boss specifically asking him/her if you could post your business card on MN to resolve a dispute abut smacking in shops?

You are quite something.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 16:59:45

Oil not school. If I was a teacher why the Hell would I bother travelling

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

RichardSimmonsTankTop Sat 17-Nov-12 17:02:39


Come on snoopy, get your story straight now!

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:02:43

I am the Head of HR for an Oil Company with responsibility for recruiting locals for non expert technicals and education, (we have already headhunted the experts) wherever I go. So far it has gone ok.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:03:09

"if i were a teacher, why would i travel" oooh, i dunno snoopy, cultural enrichment??? grin Bless ya

am lost here confused

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 17:05:07

Head of HR = the boss of the HR people. Don't think you're more important than you are.
You seem quite obsessed with money. I wonder how you ended up working in Dubai for an oil company in HR hmm

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:05:54

ooh, Do you work for BP then snooops? I'd be worrying about job security if i were you wink I'm surprised you have time to bother with Mnet. So, you don't use local "experts" then, you just use the locals for the donkey work - and you accuse the OP of unethical, but then again, you're not excatly telling the truth are you................tum te tum

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 17:06:33

Shell. BP don't have their own schools.

Shell schools, incidentally, are well-known for being really shit.

picnicbasketcase Sat 17-Nov-12 17:06:55

No idea why the amount of tax anyone pays has a bearing on whether random strangers should be allowed to hit children but I would be shocked and upset if someone had done it to mine.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 17:08:02

We have quite a lot of info on you snoopy. If you are who you say you are, I'd name change and possibly have your threads deleted. Your boss might not like you lying spouting shite on the internet (or did you ask him/her about each post?)

littleducks Sat 17-Nov-12 17:08:12

I would have freaked out if it happened to me.

However I think slarty is the voice of reason. She was playing up, you weren't dealing with it she tried to help.

I'm guessing kids screaming and being ignored is less socially acceptable there. I think in future you need to be aware and remove yourself and dd from situations were you invite unwanted help/interverance

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:09:28

So then snoopy, you are a man?????? Because the head of HR for shell is a man! just saying like! if you are he, i suggest you namechange because you've just outed yourself dear hmm

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:09:32

I would rather die than work for BP. Don't work for Shell either, perish the thought. Keep on guessing love

Posters like snoopy make me so happy....they remind me that I'm a nice, normal person.

JacqueslePeacock Sat 17-Nov-12 17:13:58

(ignoring the mess that this thread has turned into)

I think you should go back to the shop and complain. I have lived in the Far East for extended periods* and never encountered this. Although it would have been ideal to have dealt with it then and there, it sounds like you were too shocked, which is not that surprising. I think it would be a good idea to go back and have a quiet word with the manager just so that she/he can make sure the staff have better training and don't hit anyone else's child in future.

*not for tax avoidance purposes, I hasten to stress (wtf??)

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:14:40

Oh, but you said you where the head of HR for Shell, i just wanted to see if we had someone so very important spouting shite on here. I'm quite disappointed now.

Loopy - i would see if you can get local consensus. If they are outraged complain. Otherwise let it go. At least this thread will have provided you with some light releif.

LoopsInHoops Sat 17-Nov-12 17:15:39

Well, I've had a laugh tonight! Thanks folks, night. smile

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:18:11

I never said I worked for Shell.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:20:58

The thing is, if you are going to tell big fat lies, you need a really good memory - you said you were the HR for a big oil company, i said, ooh i hope its not BP, you'd rather have your hands full if you did and not have time to mnet. You correctly me in your next post, saying Shell. So yes luvvie you did. Sorry to confuse you. Oh, i mean, sorry to confuse you mate (you are a man after all!)

I'm going to have a nice hot bath now, provided by either shell or BP indirectly im sure, so thanks snoops.

I can smell burning pants.....

MrsWolowitz Sat 17-Nov-12 17:23:31


Snooopy, are you drunk? You make no sense.

<backs away>

MissAnnersley Sat 17-Nov-12 17:25:51

I may be misreading this but it was the OP that said snooopy worked at Shell, not snooopy.

JustFabulous Sat 17-Nov-12 17:25:54

slartybartfast - are you seriously saying it was fine for a stranger to hit a toddler?

Bloody hell.

OP, I would definitely write and complain to Head Office. She can't go round smacking babies ffs.

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 17:27:31

I'm trying to picture an inverse thread:

"I'm forrin and in my country we lightly smack children but I was just prevented to do so in the UK because apparently it's frowned upon. How dare they?"

I know some cultures see it as "it takes a village..." so if that's the case in KL you really only have two choices, suck it up or leave. I wouldn't expect a whole culture to change to accomodate your sensibilities.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:31:50

Poppy, are you snoopy in disguise?

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:32:03

Please copy and paste the Shell quote.

JustFabulous Sat 17-Nov-12 17:32:39

A head of HR in an oil company who recruits teachers?


PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 17:33:35

No Whatnow, I just think that for all the pseudo politically correctness, we still expect other cultures to conform with our Western values and it's not right.

Especially when you're living in their country.

I don't think this is unreasonable?

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:34:45

scroll back dear, this is not your thread.

Poppy, i don't think the OP was bemoaning the other culture, she was just saying that as they do things differently in that country, she wasn't sure if it was acceptable or not and therefore didn't know if she should complain, at least that is how i read it. My advice was, and still is, find out what the "locals" would have done - if they would complain then complain, if they wouldn't then i guess it was fall on deaf ears.

GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 17:35:55

Poppy - when it comes to assault of a child, I dont think anyone should conform to that, culture or not.

Just because it's 'culture' doesn't mean its right

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:36:04

Luckily I am. Otherwise I would have bowed out by now. How else do you think we get them? Divine intervention?

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 17:36:31

That was excellent advice Whatnow, totally agree.

When in Rome...

MissAnnersley Sat 17-Nov-12 17:36:40


I am quite sure it was the OP who mentioned Shell and not snoopy.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:39:03

I wouldn't imagine the HEAD of HR would be doing the recruiting herself though, i would have thoguht HE would have more important things to do.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:40:19

Ah, yes you are right there smile I have to concede to not having a clue who snoopy is then grin

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 17:40:27

But that's the point Ghost, it's not assault in that culture to them because they have different sensibilities.

Same way that a man touching the arm of a woman in the UK as he passes by isn't a crime, but in some countries it would be construed as nothing short of a serious violation. Should we follow their model too?

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:43:10

Again, please copy and paste me saying I work for Shell. That is slander in itself.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 17:45:17

I am a woman as well, not scared. Maybe the head of HR for Shell is a man but, luckily, we don't bother with that. Google away, or maybe just get a life dears.

JustFabulous Sat 17-Nov-12 17:46:36

Don't be so precious.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:47:46

No No my mistake, not shell, just another company. As you were.

Weird thread...hope you feel calmer now op. I do not think there is much to be done...one of those strange things that happen in life and we just will not ever understand it.

Some of the posters on here, however, are batshit grin

I am pissing myself at snoopy's posts. Darling you are wasted in HR, stand up comedy is so much more you darling.

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 17:49:55

The OP is not being precious, i woudl be mad as a snake too - if this had happened in this country it would be a no brainer - complaint to manager and the threat of legal action. But the OP is in another country with different rules and conventions on discipline. She came on here to express her upset and get some advice on what to do, if anything.

ProphetOfDoom Sat 17-Nov-12 17:50:27

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Welovecouscous Sat 17-Nov-12 17:52:33

Snoopy you don't sound like a head of hr, sorry.

When I was with DS I met another woman around the same stage of pg as me who headed up a local business. When I heard she'd had her baby I popped in to leave a message of congrats to their manager, Except, she wasn't the manager confused she'd lied to make herself sound more important!

IME of oil companies (worked in many here and abroad) hr are notoriously shite! And don't know their arse from their elbow. So snooopy, I wouldn't go boasting about how high up you are in hr, because my love, if you are head of something that's shite, it's your fault it's shite.

And a head of hr should know the difference between slander and libel!

BegoniaBampot Sat 17-Nov-12 18:11:39

You say the smack or tap wasn't hard so I'd put it down to experience and be better prepared next time. Certainly within your rights to say not to do that. She probably thought she was helping as they tend to be a lot more forward and hands on in that part of the world - even with other people's children.

snooopy Sat 17-Nov-12 18:19:13

No, I really do mean mean slander. indicating I work for Shell is an incorrect slur on my character. If you slur my character within the correct context, it is libel.

Slander is spoken, libel is written my dear!

And why would it be a slur on your character to work for shell? That's your own prejudices you are projecting onto some one else's assumptions.

JustFabulous Sat 17-Nov-12 18:40:00

Whatnowffs - If you were respondoing to me I wasn't talking to the OP.

WaitingForMe Sat 17-Nov-12 18:50:10

Am I the only person amused that someone working for an oil company is accusing the OP of being on weak ground ethically?

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 18:54:30

No, it tickled me too Waiting - Justfabulous, sorry i was, but in that case, ignore me :-)

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 18:54:52

Snoopy, when in a hole...............grin

BegoniaBampot Sat 17-Nov-12 18:58:12

So if oil companies are unethical, I guess folk who think this don't use their products?

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 18:59:17

What a bizarre thread! grin

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Sat 17-Nov-12 19:01:18

Somebody should copy this thread into word and send it on to Shell..... grin

Tweet it to them, perhaps. grin grin

NotQuintAtAllOhNo Sat 17-Nov-12 19:02:00

Not libel when we dont know who you are.

Other than Shell Head of HR.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 17-Nov-12 19:08:45

This thread is utterly bizarre!

Snooopy has made my evening thus far...please continue!

OP I can understand why you just left as you were shocked. Given its a different country with a very different culture,you probably reacted in the most appropriate way. She wouldn't have understood what you problem was if it's the norm in KL. obviously had it happened in the UK,it would be a completely different situation.

GreenyEyes Sat 17-Nov-12 19:21:04

<does Internationally recognised sign of drinky-drinky>

I pay 11% tax...I guess that means the checkout assistant in Migros can knock my son out with a railway sleeper next time he accidentally knocks the sweets off the checkout then...

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a HUGE pile of money to go and sit on mwah, hah, hah, hah....

scarletforya Sat 17-Nov-12 19:50:11

This thread is unexpectedly hilarious!

snooopy you are looopy.

bamboostalks Sat 17-Nov-12 19:55:39

You can certainly never predict how a mumsnet thread will go.

MmeLindor Sat 17-Nov-12 20:11:55

oooh, I know a head of HR at an oil company. Maybe I should send him this to see if he recognises Snoopy.

MmeLindor Sat 17-Nov-12 20:16:28

As to the actual thread:

Those who are saying, 'I would have lamped her' or 'I'd have gone ballistic'... until you have lived abroad, you don't know if that is how you would have reacted.

It is a curious thing - even normally confident and outspoken people can become unsure and reluctant to speak out in a foreign culture. It is quite intimidating to be in a country where you cannot argue with the locals - if several of them start shouting at you, then you cannot speak up, or defend your opinion.

I don't blame you for just walking out. Chalk it up to experience and avoid that shop.

Snooopy, drugs are frowned upon, you know that don't you.

This is comedy gold grin

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 20:29:55

Mmelindor - you are exactly right - and not just in foreign cultures, i don't think anyone could really say how we would have reacted. I reckon most of us would have done exactly what the OP did. In my minds eye i would go all lioness and lamped her one, but the sensible me would tell me that is really bad behaviour and not the example i'd want to set my child. I think I would have complained though.

ccarpenton Sat 17-Nov-12 20:40:49

There is a piece missing from your story. What was so pressing on your time that you had to ignore your daughter? What overwhelming timetable meant that you did not have 2 minutes to attend to your own daughter instead of ignoring her actions and buying stuff?

That fact you thought your options where a) ignore her or b) leave the shop - indicates that you feel you to not have the skills to address your daughter's behaviour.

"I was just about to pay, so couldn't really leave." - really? And you are surprised that your daughter has to act out so horrendously to get your attention when that is the kind of excuse you have? Every child gets tired and hungry regularly.

The fact you are not in the UK allowed the shopkeeper to express their feelings physically. It is wrong in this country. But in context, the shopkeeper may have been doing something they felt was right. You were not obviously able to cope with your daughter's behaviour and the fact the shopkeeper sharply smacked your daughter's arm (i.e. her "weapons" at this point) shows they may have felt they were acting in your best interests.

Hard to say without a stronger cultural reference. If it happened in the UK, the person that smacked the child would most likely be an ar*ehole.

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 20:44:33

Words fail me shock

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Sat 17-Nov-12 20:46:04

I've just looked it up for you OP. The Malaysian law which allows smacking is Article 89 of the Penal Code. It states (bold added by me):

'Nothing, which is done in good faith for the benefit of a person under twelve years of age ... by or by consent, either express or implied, of the guardian or other person having lawful charge of that person, is an offence by reason of any harm which it may cause, or be intended by the doer to cause, or be known by the doer to be likely to cause, to that person...'

If she didn't have your consent, either express or implied, then she broke the law when she smacked your child.

PoppyAmex Sat 17-Nov-12 20:49:54

Carpeton your post is ridiculous.

I was going to type a long answer but I don't think it would make a difference in this case.

sudka1 Sat 17-Nov-12 21:01:09

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

IneedAsockamnesty Sat 17-Nov-12 21:08:01

Have we been invaded again?

sillymillyb Sat 17-Nov-12 21:16:27

Ha, you did the same googling as me sudka1 grin

Oooh socks everywhere...

MmeLindor Sat 17-Nov-12 21:20:50

errrrrrrrrrr, did you miss that the OP's DD is 17mths old. 'not able to cope with her behaviour' - haven't we all had moments like that with a toddler kicking off?

And I really don't think it is on to openly speculate on, and to post the possible name, of Snoopy, Sudka - even if she has given more info than is sensible

Softlysoftly Sat 17-Nov-12 21:46:58

This is brilliant!

Mme anyone can get that info now googling and tbh it's one of many on LinkedIn so highly unlikely.

I for 1 believe Snoopy as she has no clue about the law and is clearly batshit, 2 strong HR traits (awaits telling off from HR people).

OP it's wrong but tbh I'd just chalk it up as lesson learnt and let it go.

MmeLindor Sat 17-Nov-12 21:57:29

of course they can, and Snoopy was ridiculous to give away so much info on an internet forum, but naming is different.

carpenton what are you on about, it's a 17 month old for goodness sake

Whatnowffs Sat 17-Nov-12 22:03:54

Yeah, christ, on a bike - i know i was close to the mark, but there is no way I would actually out someone on here - maybe this thread needs to disappear now???

solittletime Sat 17-Nov-12 22:20:46

Op fwiw I have lived in Africa in countries were smacking is acceptable and barely given a second thought, as well as touching and picking up a child spontaneously.

But I am pretty sure smacking someone else's child while the child is in mother's arms would not have gone down well. People were equally aware that foreigners had different views on smacking and respected that cultural difference.
If it is still bothering you I would just ask your local friends if that kind of thing is seen as ok and ask their advice.

DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved Sat 17-Nov-12 22:20:50

Baffled! Sorry OP your thread fell down a rabbit hole...

ripsishere Sun 18-Nov-12 00:23:50

OP, I believe you. we live in Selangor, so not a million miles from you. Yesterday at a wedding, a child was being admonished by his father. With the flat of his hand. It wasn't nice.
I think Mme Lindor has the best advice. Ever.

ripsishere Sun 18-Nov-12 00:25:03

BTW, it did go a bit bats hit for a while.
Snoopy, are you Petronas? I can't think of any other oil derivative firm here.
I always use Petronas, it's at the top of my road.

LoopsInHoops Sun 18-Nov-12 00:44:05

S/he is in Dubai, not here. S/he is lying when s/he says s/he has lived here. I don't believe that for a moment. A money obsessed oil employee working in a taxable state thinking it's tax free? Nah.

Bet yes, I'll ask around, see what others think. But I won't be going back there, either to complain or to shop. Was just a bit odd. (Much like this thread)

Rip, how are you getting on anyway? Everything going smoothly?

LadyMaryChristmas Sun 18-Nov-12 00:47:39

Poor little one. I hope she's OK. sad

(Twas Sybil)

LoopsInHoops Sun 18-Nov-12 00:48:13

I know who you are lovely, I've clocked you already wink

LadyMaryChristmas Sun 18-Nov-12 00:49:37


There's no need for anyone to do that though, you must have been horrified. Is she OK?

LoopsInHoops Sun 18-Nov-12 00:53:31

Ah, she's fine. I wasn't so much horrified, just surprised really. It didn't hurt, but was unexpected.

Thumbwitch Sun 18-Nov-12 00:56:04

Glaikit - I'm not sure whether it's been resolved as to whether defamation on a chat forum constitutes slander or libel - I have a vague recollection that there was some debate over it! Something to do with the transitory nature of the chat forum being more akin to conversation, and therefore more like slander. But OTOH, it is written down so could still be libel.

Does anyone else know?

LadyMaryChristmas Sun 18-Nov-12 00:56:30

Talk about overstepping the mark though. I'm so pleased she's OK. smile

LadyMaryChristmas Sun 18-Nov-12 00:58:52

It's libel, thumb smile The laws regarding this are getting an overhaul in the UK at the moment, so it's a bit of a mess. It should be a bit clearer once the amendments to the defamation act come into force.

Thumbwitch Sun 18-Nov-12 01:00:13

Fanks, LadyMary! I knew it was a mess. Didn't know it was sorted though. smile

LadyMaryChristmas Sun 18-Nov-12 01:03:51

Yup, very soon. As far as things go, online sites publish comments from users, which make the comments libel if they are of this nature. The amendments to the act remove some of the liability off the sites in return for the details of the offender being handed over. It's not great for sites which value the anonymity of its users.

Ah, but it's only libel if you live in the country and pay 38% tax, and dress like a local in a top hat and monocle, and eat crumpets and cucumber sandwiches at 4pm everyday and drink tea with your pinkie finger poking out.

Otherwise you are an outsider can just jolly well suck it up.


TiredBooyhoo Sun 18-Nov-12 01:28:14

oh dear. this went a bit tits up didn't it?

anyway OP in your shoes i think i would have reacted exactly the same as you did. you were in shock. in my head i'd like to think i would have said "please dont smack my child" but in reality as a previous very wise poster said, in a foreign country everything is different and you have to think of what is the best way of getting your dd out of there with the least upset. i'd say you managed that. anything else would have been likely to create more tension or even agression and your dd was already fretting. you needed to get her out and you probably needed to exhale yourself after the whole thing. FWIW your dd mightn't even remember it happening if she was that wound up by herself. i hope she doesn't. i wouldn't go back to the shop either.

CordeliaChase Sun 18-Nov-12 03:18:23

OP I would've done the same. I'd have walked out shocked and seethed over all the things I should have done in that situation. If you're DD was unhurt I'd just chalk it up to experience. You can be on the lookout for it happening again.

For the oil and had argument, there are lots of oil companies out in Dubai. Pretty sure Pegasus opened up a branch out there a few years ago, and it wouldn't surprise me if airenergi were also out there. Snoopy could quite easily be a recruiter for an oil and gas recruitment company, which would cover the aforementioned companies as well as a few SThree companies who jumped on the bandwagon. Lots of them out there now. Doesn't make you a professional. %23justsaying

MmeLindor Sun 18-Nov-12 08:22:22

Am sniggering a bit at the righteous indignation of someone who works for an oil company berating the OP for taking advantage of the locals in KL.

Cause, you know - working for an oil company in Dubai gives her the moral high ground.

I admit, the slander/libel info came from DH who is a legal and I merely asked "slander is spoken, libel Is written isn't it?" I've just asked him again giving context and just about fell asleep at the answer! But he basically agrees with what ladymary said smile

LadyMaryChristmas Sun 18-Nov-12 12:08:08

grin Ds takes my old law books to bed with him as they help him to sleep!

BarbecuedBillygoats Sun 18-Nov-12 12:28:51

I want to nominate this for weirdest thread of the week

AlienRefluxovermypoppy Sun 18-Nov-12 13:15:57

*Am sniggering a bit at the righteous indignation of someone who works for an oil company berating the OP for taking advantage of the locals in KL.

Cause, you know - working for an oil company in Dubai gives her the moral high ground.*

And, I would have done the same OP, walked out then fumed and wondered and deliberated!! It is a foreign country, and like others have said, they tend to be much more full on with regard to 'helping' with others children!
If it happens again, which it may well do, just say ' I don't smack, and don't like others to, thanks anyway' but I would try and keep her out of hands way in future, oh and well done for handling the clearly barking on here smile

LoopsInHoops Sun 18-Nov-12 14:44:10

Thanks all of you for your advice and humour. Snoopy, you made me laugh so much, thank you. smile

ripsishere Sun 18-Nov-12 22:14:26

Loops, it's fine. Not great yet, but OK.
We are going to move next August. Fortunately, DH wouldn't sign a two year lease on our flat so we are out on August 6th. I've my eye on a nicer block.

LoopsInHoops Sun 18-Nov-12 23:26:02

smile Hope that sorts it. smile

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