to be fucked off that stroes still feel the need to define toys by gender?

(405 Posts)
GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 22:02:14

I've been wandering around all day looking for inspiration. hmm

And it seems that within toy sales it's imperatiove to be prosciptive. sad

Surely one of the major retailers could realise that cupcakes and butterflies for grils and transport and dinosaurs for boys is just ouutdated and break free from the molud and then just sit back and wait for hoards of satisfued MNers to boost their sales.



OpheliaPayneAgain Wed 14-Nov-12 22:07:23

Last time I looked, children, no people are indeed gender specific. Some vary of course but marketting goes for the mainstream, so until a toy manufacturer decides to go for a niche market, it just isn't gonna happen is it?

Anyway - seriously - come on - just walk round till you find something you want. You are free to do that you know. If it works for the retailers to bunch stuff together then that's what they're going to do - but that should not in any way define what you end up buying. Get over it - they're not doing it specifically to offend you!

Fakebook Wed 14-Nov-12 22:12:58

Whatever. A majority of girls like pinky butterflies and a majority of boys like cars and dinosaurs.

Stop over thinking it.

Fakebook Wed 14-Nov-12 22:14:53

Oh and do as your name and get one.

MyCannyBairn Wed 14-Nov-12 22:20:48

I bleddy hate it. Even the flipping Book People do it.

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 22:21:42


That's me told, then.

Actually I have 3 girls and 100% of them don;t like butterflies or pink.

How do you like those stats?


GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 22:23:21

Do as my name?


Get a Spoonerism?

Oh, Okaaay then.

SJisontheway Wed 14-Nov-12 22:31:50

I'm with you getagrip. It's so depressing.

Catmint Wed 14-Nov-12 22:42:48

It makes me fume, Greta. YANBU

I'm pretty sure the reason that A majority of girls like pinky butterflies and a majority of boys like cars and dinosaurs. is because they have been told that is what they should like.

My DD loved Spiderman and Lego until she went to nursery.

Now it's all pink glittery crap.

DamnBamboo Wed 14-Nov-12 22:49:07

Why don't you just walk up and down both aisles and decide.

Presuambly they are grouped in a certain way because if you like cupcake kits, you may well want something else similar.

I dont' know.

Just buy what you want, what's stopping you.

MakeItALarge Wed 14-Nov-12 22:57:04

My dd loves dinosaurs. We go to the shop, she nags for dinosaurs, I buy dinosaurs.

Have honestly never noticed them being in the boys section.

WhenShallWeThreeKingsMeetAgain Wed 14-Nov-12 23:02:03

Well.......I propose that we treat and dress all babies the same, no-one knows their gender, for 18 years. Then we are a male (or female).

Get a grip OP. You have obviously not read any of the research carried out with young babies/toddlers. The babies themselves have strong identities as to whether they are male/female. Twas ever thus and ever will be.

And manufacturers will ever thus cash in on it.

Catmint Wed 14-Nov-12 23:04:57

Pinkstinks is a campaign that targets the products, media and marketing that prescribe heavily stereotyped and limiting roles to young girls. We believe that all children – girls and boys - are affected by the ‘pinkification’ of girlhood. Our aim is to challenge and reverse this growing trend. We also promote media literacy, self-esteem, positive body image and female role models for kids.

Catmint Wed 14-Nov-12 23:06:21

pinkstinks tagline: there's more than one way to be a girl.

check it out OP

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:06:55

Your post doed not make sense, ThreeKings.

WorraLiberty Wed 14-Nov-12 23:07:01

Just buy what you want


GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:09:46

Thanks Catmint, I visit PinkStinks regularly.

Tis a great site. smile

nancy75 Wed 14-Nov-12 23:09:54

Shops display their merchandise in a way that works for them. Most big chains will analyze every inch of the shop floor space and how it is performing. If putting all the pink stuff together didn't work profit wise they simply would not do it, the fact that so many stores do present the toys in this way shows that this is how most parents shop for toys. Retailers don't care if you are buying a barbie for a boy or a girl, they just want you to buy it.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 14-Nov-12 23:10:39

Because it saves time to have certain types of toys grouped together maybe?

Same with magazines. If I want to pick up National Geographic I like to be to see it immediately,if I want to read Glamour the same goes. I do not want to spend ages searching for said magazines because they are all mixed together.

People have genders. What is wrong with things being arranged in a gender specific way? There are no laws saying little girls can't have an action man because it's in the boys section and so on.

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:11:27

I can buy what I want.

I can buy what my children want.

But why should they feel that they can't have the tub of dinosaurs becuse some marketin tit has decided to put it in the "Boys' Scetion"?

WHY the fuck do they need to be defined by gender?

Illgetmycoat Wed 14-Nov-12 23:13:42

I agree with you OP. My daughter hates pink and sparkly and so do everyone of her classmates.

The large stores that just stock the pink stuff look so old fashioned. It's like the 50's never died.

Thank god for lego, glue and Harry Potter.

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:13:54

Why not have a Dolls and Fashoin Section? (Saw this in Smyths today - was pleasantly suprised.)

A Construction Toy section?

An Imaginative Play section?

Why the heck does play need to be defnied by gender?

GhostShip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:13:57

I'm doing nature verses nurture relating to gender at the moment and find this interesting. smile

It's because it's the best way to sell. And it's been that way for so long, it's stuck. I think it is slightly crossing over.

FromEsme Wed 14-Nov-12 23:14:43

Get a grip OP. You have obviously not read any of the research carried out with young babies/toddlers. The babies themselves have strong identities as to whether they are male/female. Twas ever thus and ever will be.

What utter shite. Point me to that study and I'll point you to a million that point to nurture not nature.

People treat boys and girls differently. Give a person a baby boy in a pink babygro and they'll say "oh she's so pretty and wee" where they'd say "oh he's so big and strong" if he was in a blue one.

What the hell is a "strong female identity" anyway? I sure as hell don't feel "female", I just feel like me.

Since when is MN such a den of people who are so dismissive of any feminist belief? Shite.

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:15:20

I'm not suggesting that they don;t put the pink stuff togheter. Heaven forbid.

Just suggesting that defining by gender is lazy and outmoded.

FromEsme Wed 14-Nov-12 23:16:49

I totally agree with you OP.

I find it really limiting and people can say as much as they like "oh buy what you want for your children" but when was the last time you saw a 6-year-old boy play with anything pink?

I work with children and the girl/boy thing is such a major thing for them and it really does my head in.

Illgetmycoat Wed 14-Nov-12 23:17:06

YY Greta Grip! Drag these Edwardian Laydees into the 21st century!

I find it depressing too. But equally depressing is that normally sane mumsnetters are apathetic or even happy to have these stereotypes reinforced again and again and again. Because our children are immune to marketing aren't they? Doesn't influence them at all. Totally free choice. Genetics even. Girls are after all pink and glittery cupcake makers at heart and boys are fearless adventurers and astronauts. You can't fight it, it's meant to be. Nothing to do with outside influences.

Now, where did I put my flowery apron? My husband's tea need serving to him. S'cuse me...

HoolioHallio Wed 14-Nov-12 23:19:00

I know. It's sad sad

Last time I was in Toys R us looking do for a dinosaur for DD and the assistant told me they won't sell dinosaurs for girls and wrestled me to the ground and sat on my shoulder until I agreed to only buy a Barbie doll.

Won't somebody think of the children sad

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:19:34

Greta- I don't normally venture onto these threads as they rather make me want to put my head in a pillow and sob. Come across to the Feminism boards and you'd have a rather different response. smile

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:20:44

<<holds out tentatvie hand>>

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:21:12

Remember, as a wise MNer once told me, people are very invested in gender stereotypes. You tend to get an angry response when you suggest that maybe, just maybe, it isn't all innate and that maybe, just maybe, we condition our children even if we think we don't.

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:21:52

Oh come, it's nice there now. Honest. I was scared, but they are very gentle with me.<Holds out hand>

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:23:21

Off to bed. Come play with us. Honest.

FromEsme Wed 14-Nov-12 23:23:55

Yes Hoolio that's exactly what the issue is. A+ for comprehension. hmm

Illgetmycoat Wed 14-Nov-12 23:24:05

Can I come too? I hate pink.

Surely the whole point is to stop the indoctrination, so that little girls don't automatically 'know' that a toy is 'for girls' because it is fucking pink.

Mousefunk Wed 14-Nov-12 23:26:02

Funny thing is not so long ago girls wore blue and boys pink. Pink was seen as a variant of red and therefore masculine and strong, blue was seen as being dainty. Then a lovely man called Adolf Hitler decided pink was the colour of homosexuals and suddenly it became a 'feminine' colour.. And so now girls just have to like pink and boys blue. Little history lesson for you all there.

There is evidence boys prefer cars and the like because of the motion, their brain reacts better too it than girls. Girls prefer to copy adults and thus baby dolls. However the pink/blue divide and the 'only girls like dolls' or 'only boys like cars' is a cultural thing. They only stick to liking the so called 'girly' or 'boyish' things because that's what they're fed from the start.

Yanbu at all. I don't like the boy/girl divide at all and it should be merged. I also would like to see less pink/blue in general. Why are dolls always so pink? .. Pink makes me gag.

Sallyingforth Wed 14-Nov-12 23:26:28

Shops aren't interested in pandering to or enforcing stereotypes. It's not their job to promote anything of the sort.
They lay out their goods in the way that they have found best sells the products, and by definition that must be the way their customers want them.
It's really that simple.

Illgetmycoat Wed 14-Nov-12 23:26:40

Flipping typical. Try to make a new friend and they've buggered off without me <sighs and goes to bed>

HoolioHallio Wed 14-Nov-12 23:26:54

It's true. I still have the bruises. And DD is still crying because no one will buy her a dinosaur sad

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:26:57

Ooh, just realised that sounded pervy as the word 'tomorrow' was missing. Come and play on the feminism boards 'tomorrow'. Or tonight. But i won't be there and I am lovely grin.

<Greta backs away from scary MNer who propositioned her apropos of nothing>

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:27:55

Was I the friend Illget. I will be your friend. Or were you after the OP?

KitchenandJumble Wed 14-Nov-12 23:29:33

YANBU. I loathe the strict gender lines that are drawn in merchandising. And it is relatively new, actually. In my childhood there were no pink legos or whatever. It's rather genius marketing, I suppose, if you manage to convince people that their children can't share toys, that there must be toys for boys and toys for girls. Sadly, many people swallow this hook, line, and sinker.

Of course boys and girls are different. But it is sheer nonsense to claim some sort of biological imperative for a preference for pink and the like. That is entirely culturally determined.

Illgetmycoat Wed 14-Nov-12 23:30:05

You're back Youllscream! Now I've made a fuss about nothing! I will be there tomorrow! I hate pink.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 14-Nov-12 23:31:16

I really don't understand the big issue about gender. <shrugs>

I'm not a massive fan of all pink or all blue on girls/boys simply because...there are more than two colours to choose from! Red,white,orange,green and purple are much better.

When I have children I may put them in the "wrong" colour baby grows to see if the reactions they get are different as someone suggested upthread. baby has to keep me amused one way or another

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:31:25

Come, come discuss. Honestly, the feminism boards had a scary rep for a while, but I find them really friendly and they let me rant grin

MadBanners Wed 14-Nov-12 23:32:47

I have never noticed a girl/boy section in any shop, but then i don't pay too much attention, i just wander around picking up what i want, so all the dino stuff will tend to be in the same place, all the doll stuff in the same place, generally all the blocks in the same place, then a hello kitty wall, a dora wall etc....I have never ever noticed it labelled as girl/boy, it is just grouped according to what it is!

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:33:15

Do Alisvo- when people mistake my DD2 for a boy (18 months) they tell me she is strong, and brave. They never tell me that when they realise she is a girl. They tell me she is cute and sweet.

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 14-Nov-12 23:33:15

I do think all the new "girly" Lego,mechano,footballs,play Mobil and so on are ridiculous,having given it some thought.

MakeItALarge Wed 14-Nov-12 23:33:31

Strict gender lines?


I admit I dont watch much childrens tv so dont see the advertising but my dd and ds play with the same toys. Tonight theyve both played hot wheels. Just buy your children the toys they want!

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Wed 14-Nov-12 23:34:19

Right, really off to bed now. I have a thread on feminism called something like gender stereotyping moan of the day. Anyone interested in resurrecting it feel free and will see you soon smile

HoolioHallio Wed 14-Nov-12 23:36:07

Makeitalarge - Well done - I think you also deserve a snotty A+ from FromEsme for your comprehension wink

GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:36:16

I will have a nosey in three, YoullScream, thanks for the handholding.


GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:36:38

there, not three.



GretaGip Wed 14-Nov-12 23:38:20

<<grabs Illgetmycoat's pigtials and drags>>

BlameItOnTheBogey Wed 14-Nov-12 23:38:34

OP I am with you. It's totally rubbish. Today I bought my children a happy meal (I know, I know it's my own fault) and they asked me if I wanted to girls' or the boys' happy meal. WTF? Turns out that the toys are different to reflect the fact that 'girls like pink' or something...

Alisvolatpropiis Wed 14-Nov-12 23:38:40

YoullScream that's shocking! I am so going to do it.

I generally refer to young children as cute,sweet or lovely. unless they're none of those things in which case I say nothing

I suppose I never gave it much thought previously,my parents let me do things I liked and never uttered the words "that's for boys" or "you should like this because you're a girl".

FromEsme Wed 14-Nov-12 23:41:12

You know, Hoolio , it's all very well to make these kind of comments that you think it's ridiculous that people worry about that sort of thing, but it really makes me wonder if you ever think about these issues at all. Fair enough if you don't, but I've never quite seen the point of being so scathing of people who do.

I am not crazy about seeing the girls in my class give up sport as they get older because they aren't encouraged into it. Or women growing up doing all the housework because that's what their toys socialise them to do from an early age.

amarylisnightandday Wed 14-Nov-12 23:45:42

Dd1 loves everything pink - there is now even bloody pink princess Lego in our house. Sigh sigh.

But....her best friend is a boy - they play trains and ride their bikes together but mostly just run around pretending to run away from monsters - that is when thru arnt in the pool which is their favourite past time. Pink crap wasn't what I wanted at all but I have gained perspective watching dd1 grow up in to a brilliant, string child grin

FromEsme Wed 14-Nov-12 23:49:31

Those string children are pretty scary though...

Lego - multicoloured - in the boys section - astronauts, police officers, scientists, miners, pilots. Heroes. Role models?

Pink lego - hairdressers, cupcakes, beauty salons.

Playmobile - Mulitcoloured - in the boys section - Vets, rangers, knights, doctors, racing drivers.

Playmobile - pink. Fairies, princesses and unicorns.

Aspirational huh? Pink shit lego and playmobile has not and is not coming near our house if I can help it. Gah!

And some of you think this fucking pick shite is OK. FFS!

pink shite obviously

BTW if either DS or DD want to become a beauty therapist or hairdresser brilliant. But I DO NOT want DD thinking that is all she can be because she is a girl.

porridgewithalmondmilk Thu 15-Nov-12 00:06:39

I intend this question very genuinely as I have enjoyed reading the discussion.

I was a very 'girly' little girl, in some ways and as an adult my tastes do still lean towards what is traditionally considered feminine: I like pastel colours, to wear and in my home, I enjoy cooking and baking and sewing and as a little girl my two main hobbies were ballet and horse-riding (along with reading smile)

I'm afraid I don't much care for 'pink stinks' because of this. If there is more than one way to be a girl, surely a girl can choose, if she wishes, to like pink, sparkles and butterflies.

I do wink

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 00:15:14

I dont think all the pink shite is ok, but I take that little intrest in marketing I honestly had never noticed girls and boys sections, just toys arranged into groups. I has a ds and dd very close together and they have always shared toys.

What confuses me is why people are so dismissive of pink? Its a colour, there is lots of them! My ds wears a pink jumper, most of my male friends wear pink shirts or ties.

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 00:22:24

I don't think anyone's actually dismissive of pink. They're dismissive of the culture that surrounds it. I live with 3 other women, all of their rooms festooned in pink cupcake princess stuff. All educated and in their 20s. I find it a bit odd, I've never walked into the room of a man in his 20s who has transformers and ghostbusters stuff everywhere.

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 00:28:45

I'm pretty sure the reason that A majority of girls like pinky butterflies and a majority of boys like cars and dinosaurs. is because they have been told that is what they should like.

I disagree with that. I have a dd (pfb) and I never told her what to like. She has cars, dinosaurs and a bob the builder soft toy along with her girly play sets. She doesn't like dolls so doesn't have any.

I was never told what to like, and I had mostly remote control cars because they were more fun than dolls.

MissPricklePants Thu 15-Nov-12 00:32:16

The problem is not the colour pink, the problem is limiting so called 'girls' toys to only be pink. I mean the pink lego is awful! I hate gender stereotyping and dd has a mixture of toys. She loves her dolls and equally loves her dinosaur collection. What irritates me is the limitations this may put on some girls, I am all for breaking down the stereotypes and encouraging girls (and boys too) to play with what they want. Oh and to read what they want too instead of the stories for girls/ stories for boys I saw lurking in the bookshop recently. Even supermarkets (Morrissons!) have a girls section and a boys section. The layout of the Entertainer annoys me with the sparkly pink floor with floor to ceiling height stacked with lurid pink boxes full of dolls/fluffy creatures.

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 00:34:12

But what the hell is wrong with that? You have a men's section and a women's section for toiletries and clothes and even shoes. So what's the problem if they do it with children? Why is this even an issue?

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 00:34:15

Fakebook maybe you don't tell her what to like, but society sure as hell does.

But why can the pink not be a vet's playset?..the butterflies be on the doctors set? The glitter on the safari ranger steering wheel? The pink stuff is never about exploring, about pushing boundaries, about finding out things. It is funneled into looking pretty. To looking like Jordan. That is why I find so much of what Pinkstinks says terrifying. Hey DS be a firefighter ,a vet, an astronaut. Hey your hair....

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 00:37:20

Ok so society tells her, but how many of us have been influenced by society and have been deeply affected by it? How does a girl playing with girly toys affect her? It doesn't.

I have an old school friend who used to have a pink bedroom and a dolls house with about 10 barbie dolls. She's a doctor now. Didn't do her any harm did it?

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 00:38:50

Do you really think it doesn't do any harm? I totally disagree. I have to go to bed, but I'm sure there are a million people on here ready to tell you why.

Facebook ,would you be happy if you could buy a wide range of looks in the men's department and only stuff that Jordan would wear in the women's section?

Fakebook, sorry autocorrect

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 00:40:11

I think having a website called pinkstinks its quite dismissive.

I like pink. I only played with very 'girly' toys growing up, yet ended up in a very male working environment. I honestly dont think playing barbies and dollies had any effect on me.

Backtobedlam Thu 15-Nov-12 00:41:39

I've never noticed shops grouped in boys and girls, but they often do it on websites and it drives me mad when searching online, some toys I genuinally am unsure which category they go into, and because I have both girls and boys I have to trawl the lot anyway.

However, I would add that my youngest has been exposed to traditional 'boys toys' from birth-trains, diggers, cars etc.but has actually developed a pink/purple obsession. She always wants the pink cup, pink plate, pink sweets...there is every colour to choose from and she always goes for pink or purple, so I guess there must be something inborn-she showed this liking as soon as she could vagualy express an opinion, by pointing and screaming!

MissPricklePants Thu 15-Nov-12 00:42:33

just because it didn't do your friend any harm doesn't mean it will not effect girls now. I think toys are far more gendered than when I was young (I'm just 27 so not old) I think barbies et al are far more sexualised. I think some clothes shops provide an appalling amount of over sexualised clothing for young children! To the poster who mentioned girls/boys toys in a happy meal? really?! I work for McDs and we have not done boys/girls toys in erm must be nearly 10 years now! We are def not doing them in company owned stores (Madagascar 3 at the mo).

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 00:44:04

Cant abide Jordan but from what Ive seen she wears dresses, jeans, jodpours, leggings, hoodies, wellies, heels. But all in a size 0 so Id be fucked sad

But you, and Fakebook's doctor friend are not growing up now are you? When Ken, Barbie and action man were all on the same aisle? When lego and playmobile were just...there...when pink was a colour. Now pink is...Jordan. You are a girl. You can wear pink. You can make yourself pretty. whatever you want....

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 00:46:54

It's too late and I can't be arsed to argue right now. Give me proof that girls playing with girly toys affects them mentally, emotionally and I might change my mind. Good night.

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 00:47:11

MakeItALarge "But all in a size 0 so Id be fucked" - it's that sort of comment that is what I think the problem is. Women are encouraged from such an early age to worry about their appearance. I can't imagine David Beckham's or Robert Pattinson's name coming up in a conversation about clothes and a man's comment being "but he's much skinnier than me".

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 00:48:17

Stop talking about bloody Jordan.

Startail Thu 15-Nov-12 00:49:30

Boots catalogue has all Lego, all playmobil, all scooters and all it's Dr Who stuff in boys.
Only really pink passive tat for girls.
Including gendered tea sets and cooking bits which really make meangry

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 00:50:02

Fakebook why are you getting so narked? People can talk about who/what they like.

MissPricklePants Thu 15-Nov-12 00:53:49

I have got my dd (3.5) a pirate ship for Christmas to the horror of the shop assistant 'but shes a girl?!' erm yeah and she likes pirates. She has started showing more of an interest in pink stuff but she says she likes it because her best friend at nursery does. Which is fine, I think its about finding a balance and allowing children to play with what they want and like regardless of gender.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 01:06:40

But I didnt say she was skinnier than me, I said ahe was a different size. Im not sure how you took that Im worried about my weight from that?

Also Ive had a quick google and found a Dr. Astronaut and Archaeologist Barbie.

pinkstinks are spot on in their challenges, I'd say.

JoInScotland Thu 15-Nov-12 01:09:54

Yes, why have two aisles? One pink and one blue? My son loves purple, and is fine with pink and actually quite fancies butterflies ... I have been searching for warm boots that are purple. I find some and then think "Oh dear, they have butterflies on them". Should it matter? I don't care, he will be thrilled, but I worry about what one boy in particular will say at preschool. And the strange looks the other Mums may well give me....

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 01:12:25

You said she was a size 0 and that you'd be fucked and did a sad face. What is anyone going to extrapolate from that?

Beyond that, how you feel about your weight is not the issue. Talking about weight AT ALL is the issue. Who cares? It's so unimportant and yet women talk about it all the time at any opportunity.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 01:16:52

You asked how it would be if the shops only stocked Jordans clothes.

My answer was badly phrased, but that there would be a wide selection however nothing in my size.

Size is a consideration when clothes shopping. I would also be fucked if everything was in a size 48.

KRITIQ Thu 15-Nov-12 01:17:45

It amazes me that so many people seem to genuinely believe that very small children are immune to marketing messages. It's pretty clear that they has adults have swallowed them hook, line and sinker.

Why have one toy in a boy and a girl version? So they can sell two lots to the same family if they have children of both sexes rather than one.

As a child in the 60's, we didn't have the pink for girls, blue for boys crap. Even though socially and politically, there was less gender equality, there were fewer constraints on children dressing and playing with toys designated by gender. I think I and my friends turned out fine without a single princess costume in the dressing up box or a preschool make up set.

What worries me is not just the segregation of "this is for boys" and "this is for girls" which starts at birth. It's the messages conveyed in those different toys, clothes and activities.

Ever tried buying shoes for girls that are hard wearing, practical for serious physical activity, easy to clean, let alone not in pink or maybe purple at a stretch?

The "princess culture" tells little girls that being pretty, passive and pleasing to others should be their goal. Boys get the message that being tough, competitive and making/doing things is what they should aspire to. Oh, and whatever you do, just don't do anything that makes you look or be seen to act like a girl. What does that say about the relative value of boys and girls?

What gets me is so many people insist that this is all natural, like it's been this way forever. Nope, this has evolved to the current state of play over the past 10-15 years. I can see it from photos of my own childhood and my nieces and nephews after that. I remember it from trips to Early Learning Centre in the 80's when it was a sea of primary colours, hardly any pink in sight and far, far less gender segregation of toys (and sections certainly weren't labelled by sex, as they are in many shops now - crikey!)

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 01:22:58

I didn't say anything about Jordan that was someone else. Why talk about weight/size at all, that's my point. Not something men tend to bring up.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 01:29:36

Sorry FromEsme, someone else posed the question.

Im genuinly intrested in the male/female sivide and how marked it is, having never considered it before. I was brought up to only play with dollies and girl toys, my Dad refused to let me play football with the boys. Yet I work in an area mostly staffed by men.

I honestly dont think the toys I had affected me

sashh Thu 15-Nov-12 01:40:00


If you are studying nature/nurture then you should know that pink for girls is a new idea, not an old one.

Startail Thu 15-Nov-12 02:18:36

Sainsbury's email is just as Fucking bad.

All toy household appliances that I connect with mindless drudgery, iron, washing machine, kettle and toaster.
In the girls section. Almost all the Lego and playmobil in boys.
Hello kitty and Minnie Mouse stuff that almost certainly isn't as well made for girls. And loads of Silvanian family tweeness.

I know they have lots of MN fans, but animals in dresses living in cute plastic houses make feel faintly dizzy.

Einsty Thu 15-Nov-12 05:17:11

OP, YAsoNBU! I can on to say 'still' though? It's worse than it was when I was a child and my parents would not have been able to afford toys that would only be played with by one gender... So f-ing depressing that this sort of insidious gender stereotyping goes on in 2012 - and that so many parents have convinced themselves it has no ill effects ...

GhostShip Thu 15-Nov-12 07:35:41

Sash - I'm talking about gender stereotyped toys.

Dd3 is heavily into mermaids at the moment, so wants mermaid dolls for Christmas. She's also obsessed with spiderman and chose a spiderman dressing up outfit from a 'boys' section when told she could have a treat the other day. She also chose to dress as batman when they had superhero day at school the other day. She's nearly 6, so old enough to read 'boys' or 'girls' in a shop or catalogue. She just likes what she likes, and doesn't care which section it's sold in!

ConsiderCasey Thu 15-Nov-12 08:07:11

Moon, the problem is that this often changes as they get older and become more self-conscious. there were lots of things DS used to like but is now too embarrassed to admit to because he will be teased.

I also think the overall damage is a big one, and worse so because its hard to notice. If you think about all the girls toys and how a lot of them are to do with appearance or caring for others and how a lot of boys toys are about action and constructing things, fast forward a few decades and see the huge gender gaps that exist in the well paid engineering sector and the low paid caring sector, then you'll see it does have an effect.

It's not innate, it's a low subtle consistent pressure. People conform without consciously realising it because it feels good to be one of the crowd and the marketing departments know that.

I see your point, it's not just the toy stores, it's everywhere in society. My cousin is a sound engineer for the BBC, and she gets fed up with the reactions she gets.

Going back to the superhero topic at DDs school, we had parents evening shortly afterwards, and her teacher said, "All the little girls have loved learning about Wonderwoman and Catwoman". It made me feel quite cross, and told her that DD preferred Spiderman. As a parent, I guess that all I can do is to encourage my children to not feel that they have to conform.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 09:07:00

Being a victim of sexist behavoiur at work is a serious issue. Not the same thing as how shops choose to display their goods.

Im still baffled by this. There are lots of clothes shops, shoe shops etc that I dont like. So I dont shop in them! There are lots of shops that dont do this, yabu to shop in a store and feeling you and your dc have to conform to what that shop tells you your children should play with.

Everlong Thu 15-Nov-12 09:53:59

Only read OP.

If your dds don't like girly stuff buy them boy stuff. Simple.

Should be anyway.

I'm not with you really.

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 10:02:41

MakeItALarge I don't think the issue is that simple. All the children in my class have a very specific idea of which toys and books are correct for their gender. The boys would not be seen dead reading about princesses or anything to do with girls.

It is not just parents who influence their children. Their peers have a huge impact on them. Send your son to school with a Barbie if that's what he wants, but I guarantee by the age of 5/6 he'll be getting bullied for it. If that doesn't send a clear message that you must stay within the realms of gender-specific behaviour, I don't know what does.

Recently, the boys in my class have been reading a superhero book aimed at kids. They constantly shout out about how one lad or another is "looking at the dirty pictures". What are the dirty pictures? Yes, the one of the women in tight, superhero type clothing. The men are wearing it too, but it's the women that are dirty to them for wearing tight clothing.

And how anyone can say "I don't think the toys I played with/messages I received as a child had an impact on me" is beyond me. EVERYTHING has an impact on us, it is impossible to separate any of it out and say what influenced us and what didn't.

Beyond that, the gender divide is, in my opinion, getting wider. The women I live with (all 5 - 10 years younger than me) are so much more interested in their appearance than I/my friends were. They are forever fake-tanning, waxing, getting nails just wasn't on my radar at all. Overt displays of gender seem to be really fashionable and I think that this pink stuff will make that even more noticeable as children grow up.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 10:17:51

My son is 8, and both him and dd are past the barbie stage. I recently sent him to school in his pink jumper for non uniform day and no one said a word.

Ime taking more of an intrest in appearence is not a female thing, I know men who fake tan and wax. I wear fake tan, false eyelashes etc, not quite the towie look but very groomed. I also wear my combats and steel toe capped boots. I dont think taking an intrest in appearence is a bad thing for either gender, can one not do that and yet still be a strong woman?

ClippedPhoenix Thu 15-Nov-12 10:19:59

So what? We are different Genders. I'm female and my DP is male.

Boy's do like to play with different things from girls mostly, why can't these be catagorised?

Mad, absolutely mad grin

Mrsjay Thu 15-Nov-12 10:24:48

when toy shopping for my dds when they were younger i just went and got what they liked butterflies and pink for 1 and trains and cars for another, what do you want shops to do just bundle them all up girls and boys like different toys but stores need to put them in some kind of order ,and some girls love pink butterflies

FromEsme Thu 15-Nov-12 10:28:42

My experience is very different to yours then MakeItALarge .

And the phrase "strong woman" is just puke-inducing.

ClippedPhoenix - why do you think boys like to play with different things to girls? Just the way they are or something? Nothing to do with society or expectations?

MrsDeVere Thu 15-Nov-12 10:30:31

Does this really not piss people off?
It irritates the fuck out of me grin

I love pink, I love glitter and I LOVE butterflies but I do NOT like being told by Sainsburys, Asda, Mothercare et al that they are Girl's Toys.

The way that toy aisles and catalogues are labeled now really shocks me.

My eldest kids were born in the early 90s and there was none of this prescriptive marketing. The adverts for dollies showed girls playing with them and scaletrix was for boys and their daddies but it was nothing like as bad as today.

I thought we were getting somewhere. You could buy toy domestic appliances in <gasp> primary colours and ELC would show boys and girls playing with them.

ELC are now the worst sodding offenders.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 10:32:26

I was trying to think of a way to phrase it that wasnt puke enducing!

What is wrong with women who wear pink and fake tan though? Why does it bother you that people make that much effort?

Mrsjay Thu 15-Nov-12 10:32:29

My eldest kids were born in the early 90s and there was none of this prescriptive marketing.

you know what you are right perhaps I am still in the 90s and it wasn't so bad you could go into wollies and pick up your toys without it shouting out THIS IS A GIRLS TOY, I maybe out of touch with advertising

brimfullofasha Thu 15-Nov-12 19:33:01

YANBU, I was ranting to DH about this the other day when trying to buy DNiece a dinosaur toy. John Lewis's 'girls' section included a mini iron, shopping trolley and tea set. She loves dinosaurs - why are they for boys? I resent little girls being moulded into 'homemakers'.

Catmint Thu 15-Nov-12 20:03:13

I don't think it's only about pinkification of toys, it is about the underlying assumption of what constitutes a toy appealing to boys/girls.

And messages on clothes annoy me as well - the boys ones are often Go explore!/ jungle adventure etc and the girl ones are about being friends & pets & such.

The message - boys are outdoor, initiate things, take risks, are engaged with the wider world. Girls are domestic, concerned with caring & relationships.

I totally object to these subtle messages being allowed to diminish the ambitions or confidence of girls that they can choose to achieve in any way they want.

And if what they want is genuinely cupcakes etc, well that is fine, i like a cupcake as much as the next person.

But let's not pretend that this kind of socialisation doesn't exist.

mummysmellsofsick Thu 15-Nov-12 20:07:21

Yanbu. You go in a toy store/ clothes shop and there is literally no clue that feminism ever happened. I find it strange

Arcticwaffle Thu 15-Nov-12 20:12:40

Yanbu, it does seem to be getting worse over the last decade.

I would be more up in arms about it except I have 3 girls and none of them have been into pink glittery princess stuff. One is so-so about girly stuff, one a bit averse and one has always gone for the things marketed for boys. I do try and avoid the more gendered shops - toys'r'us and ELC for toys, mothercare and Next for clothes.

I totally agree with the whole Pinkstinks campaign, but I think it's not too hard to avoid those shops which do overdo the pink glittery crapf, and if we just don't go to those shops then maybe it would be less of an issue.

lionheart Thu 15-Nov-12 20:13:31

Yes, 'tis strange.


squoosh Thu 15-Nov-12 20:22:20

YANBU. It really fucks me off. It's only in the last fifteen years too, marketing bods are trying their damndest to shoehorn girls and boys into narrow gender brackets. Parents have to buy twice don't they.

I've linked to these ads before but do take a look. Can you imagine them being made today?

freddiefrog Thu 15-Nov-12 20:33:15


My local Entertainer (probabky irrationally) pisses me right off

Shop is painted one side pink with 'girls toys' on the wall, other side blue with 'boys toys' on the wall.

Girls side is full of pink Lego, toy washing machines, play food, toy make up and dolls. Boys side is full of dinosaurs, toy farms and remote control cars.

I don't see the need to define it like that. Paint the shop lots of different colours, put toys in it - all Lego together, all play food together, etc, it doesn't need a girls side and a boys side

I have 2 girls. One very pink and doll-ified. The other into skateboards and surfing, but both liked playing with farms and remote control cars as much as they did toy hoovers and barbies

I have no problem with pink or barbies or the toy food, I just don't think it needs to be marketed towards a particular sex

kim147 Thu 15-Nov-12 20:35:37

There's an advert for "foot scrubbers" in the bath.
They come in 2 colours.
Have a gues which ones smile

MousefunkWed 14-Nov-12 23:26:02
Funny thing is not so long ago girls wore blue and boys pink. Pink was seen as a variant of red and therefore masculine and strong, blue was seen as being dainty. Then a lovely man called Adolf Hitler decided pink was the colour of homosexuals and suddenly it became a 'feminine' colour.. And so now girls just have to like pink and boys blue.

I knew that the colours were the other way around early in the last century but hadn't realised the change over was connected to hitler.

Anyway DS likes all colours not just blue (it's orange for preference at the moment). DD likes a little pink, but knows she looks great in stronger colours. At the moment, she's wearing a rust coloured dress with black trim, chosen by herself. She doesn't have a lot of pink, by choice.

Thing is, with DD aged 12 and DS aged 8, when they were born, it wasn't quite so prevalent to have gender stereotyping then, it's really exploded recently and I'm convinced it's all down to companies wanting to make money.

I hate the messages it all conveys. I am constantly reinforcing to both DCs that they can make their own choices. Both of them have played with toys supposedly for the other gender, pick clothes they like (DS chose a purple jumper recently). But it still irritates the crap out of me.


I want a chine tea set suitable for a boy but cant find one thats not flowery and pink

also hate that majority of peppa pig stuff is aimed at girls and george pig is for boys

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 21:04:55

I still don't see why people are wringing their hands over this.

I bought Dd a vtech camera last year. I could have bought a pink one but I opted for the blue instead. She didn't mind.

Does it really matter how things are stacked in a shop? It makes it easier for people to shop that way. Parents aren't the only people who buy toys for children. The shop layout is always designed to make shopping easy and stress free.

People way over thinking this.

whatsforyou Thu 15-Nov-12 21:06:09

Some of this thread really scares me, do some people honestly think girls are born loving pink glitter whereas boys love cars and pirates?

I saw a toy advertised in a catalogue the other day, a dressing up box one for girls and one boys. The boy's one had a fireman, a doctor, a cowboy etc. The girls contained a princess, a model, a fairy, a film star and a prom queen. Five pink dresses, I kid you not. I could have wept sad at least in the 70s I could be a nurse or an air hostess. The messages that are being sent by these toys are frightening!

Fakebook Thu 15-Nov-12 21:06:14

Oh and I saw a 2 year old

kim147 Thu 15-Nov-12 21:06:20

" bought Dd a vtech camera last year. I could have bought a pink one but I opted for the blue instead. She didn't mind. "

Other colours exist apart from pink and blue.


MrsDeVere Thu 15-Nov-12 21:10:10

I think you are way underthinking this

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Thu 15-Nov-12 21:11:04

I agree with MrsDeVere

squoosh Thu 15-Nov-12 21:13:47

It's hardly overthinking to recognise the relatively recent phenomenon that is toy manufacturers marketing their products in a sexist manner. Making boys and girls think that some toys can't be played with as they are for people of the other gender. Domestic themed toys are for girls, dinosaur themed toys are for boys.

I find that most people underthink things.

squoosh Thu 15-Nov-12 21:16:11

Does it really matter how things are stacked in a shop? It makes it easier for people to shop that way.

Yes it makes it easier to shop if you're happy to shop as the marketing men and women want you to. i.e. buying into their sexist twaddle.

kim147 Thu 15-Nov-12 21:20:42

Wonder where chemistry and electronics sets are found?

Dereksmalls Thu 15-Nov-12 21:37:51

I agree with you OP but happily DD1 has recently informed me she is a tomboy and therefore now hates pink. Her only concession to girliness is a fondness for zoobles and I have to admit to thinking they're pretty cool myself. She doesn't known it yet but she's going to be an engineer grin

freddiefrog Thu 15-Nov-12 21:48:43

But Fakebook, did you have to go to the pink painted 'girls toys' section or the blue painted 'boys toys' section? Or just go to the shelf where they stock a variety of different coloured v-tech cameras? Because in our local Entertainer it wouldnt have been the shelf with the different coloured camera option

Why would your daughter 'mind' getting a blue camera, Fakebook? Possibly because there is an expectation that you should have chosen pink? Why do you feel getting the blue rather than the pink is even noteworthy?

Because you know the pink expectation exists.

If there is an expectation you should follow suit over colour, there must be an expectation over the other, harmful stereotypes too.

And regarding making it easier to shop, the opposite is also true.
It is therefore harder to shop if your daughter wants anything remotely unstereotypical.

kim147 Thu 15-Nov-12 22:40:18

<wonders why camera can't be green or yellow or purple smile >

squoosh Thu 15-Nov-12 22:47:29

A few months ago Morrison's had magazines such as National Geographic and New Scientist in the 'Men's Interest' section.

Good for Morrison's though they realised this was sexist and outdated and changed it.

Gender sterotyping isn't just a problem for small children although of course it's more important that we challenge it on behalf of children as they don't realise that the subtext behind the messages that they're being fed.

OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos Thu 15-Nov-12 22:47:38

I am jealous of the little girls of today that have such a huge selection of toys to choose from. As a child, I would have loved the pink aisle in Toys R Us.

People are saying that we didn't have such gender stereo typical toys around when we were growing up in the 60's, 70's and 80's, and it's true. I grew up in the 80's and hated how there were so many toys designed for what boys like but there was hardly anything designed for girls. Some of us played with the typical boys toys because we had to, not because it was better for us to.

I take my two sons to toy shops and despair that so many boys toys are in depressing colours like camouflage green and black, at least pink is bright!

birthdaypanic Thu 15-Nov-12 22:51:01

I think manufacturers need to rethink the way they package/advertise products. My dgs loves playing with a dolls house at nursery and has recently said he would like one for Christmas which we are all fine with but on a recent trip to a toy shop he spotted the same dolls house and the packaging only shows girls he immediately said he couldn't have one because it's for girls. We have never told him their are girls and boys toys but encourage him to play with whatever he wants but because of the packaging now doesn't want one. He will get one for Christmas but we will probably take it out of the packaging before wrapping.

MakeItALarge Thu 15-Nov-12 22:55:08

wonders why the camera cant be fucking pink. Or blue, or orange, yellow, green with red polka dots

My dd has played with dinosaurs for years. She loves her dinosaurs. Neither of us have ever thought of them as boys toys but the consesus here seems to be that they are. And Im going to have to throw her pink dinos away because pinkstinks.

squoosh Thu 15-Nov-12 22:57:57

Pink doesn't stink but pink, pink, pink, pink, purple, pink, pink, pink . . . . that stinks.

Illgetmycoat Thu 15-Nov-12 23:37:52

Don't forget the sparkly pink and purple squoosh!

Sorry OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos I think I'm reading your post wrong.
It sounds like you are lamenting the lack of stereotypical girls toys in your youth!

I didn't get that right, surely?

squoosh, just started browsing that site, and it's fantastic!

I know that Halloween is bigger in the states and all, but looking at how far they have travelled along the stereotype journey is ridiculous...

It isn't so surprising that this
is what you get when you have started conditioning it around here

Startail Fri 16-Nov-12 00:17:29

I don't mind pink and purple and blue and green.
It's pink or blue that's the problem.
I have two DDs invariably the older one ends up with a blue camera etc and the younger with pink.

Actually DD2 would like purple and DD1 a choice!

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 00:26:37

Toy manufacturers do not give a shiny shit what your children play with, as long as you buy their stuff. They market it in this way because it sells.

Theres a comment on here about wanting a tea set suitable for a boy
Now that is what I would class as gender stereo typing.

Zwitterion Fri 16-Nov-12 04:47:54

I hate it too and find it depressing.

Gender stereotyped toys do matter. They are shrinking the world for our daughters by limiting the 'socially acceptable' choices they have.

It's a miserable state of affairs. YANBU!

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 06:52:49

"People way over thinking this."

The cat call of the terminally blinkered and unquestioning...

For the love of God, people, stop thinking!! shock

God knows what might become of us all if we give anything any thought. hmm

LadyMetroland Fri 16-Nov-12 07:06:24


It's not just about the grouping and placement of toys within the shops, its the packaging and marketing of them.

You have to search hard for genuinely unisex toys.

Booboostoo Fri 16-Nov-12 07:20:13

I haven't read the whole thread so may be repeating...but some of the online retailers are the worst offenders. The only way to search is through 'boy toys' and 'girl toys' rather than age or type of toy which is much more sensible.


Fakebook Fri 16-Nov-12 07:27:15

Well firstly I bought the camera from amazon so I didn't need to go into a shop. The reason why I've mentioned this (btw, wtf at this comment:^Why do you feel getting the blue rather than the pink is even noteworthy?^) is because people seem to think girls are getting conditioned into buying pink, but I don't think they are.
I don't know why the camera can't be yellow green or orange with polka dots; that's something to ask vtech.

Yes it makes it easier to shop if you're happy to shop as the marketing men and women want you to. i.e. buying into their sexist twaddle.
No, nobody forces you to go and buy these things. No one holds a gun to your head and says "buy this pink shit for your dd or else". I'd like to think I'm clever enough to understand this marketing ploy.

For the love of God, people, stop thinking!!

Gender stereotyped toys do matter. They are shrinking the world for our daughters by limiting the 'socially acceptable' choices they have.

Bloody hell, all because they stack girls toys together in the shop? Yeah, okay!

Seems like I'm just going to have to agree to disagree here.

RudolphUcker Fri 16-Nov-12 07:30:59

YY Somerset, so depressing

And <despairs> at the 'never did me any harm' argument of the terminally blinkered.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 07:56:07

No Facebook, you're ridiculous.

People are not 'over-thinking'. But I suppose if you rarely think at all, and certainly if you're not the type to question things, then yes, this probably does seem like over-thinking to you.

Out of interest, what do you think of the Asda Christmas ad? I just bet you think people are making a big fuss of it, and it's just what Christmas/life is like for most families, right? The mother does most of the housework and the father rarely, if ever, pitches in.

Go on, surprise me...

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Fri 16-Nov-12 08:11:08

Well firstly I bought the camera from amazon so I didn't need to go into a shop. The reason why I've mentioned this (btw, wtf at this comment:^Why do you feel getting the blue rather than the pink is even noteworthy?^) is because people seem to think girls are getting conditioned into buying pink, but I don't think they are.

You know what Fakebook, you may think that, but I am afraid I think you are totally and utterly wrong.

My DD1 (aged 3) recently had to make a choice about a product. This particular product came in pink, blue or yellow. She chose pink. Fair enough. A number of days later, she mentioned to me in passing (we weren't even talking about the item), "of course mummy, I had to choose the pink one because I am a girl". I was horrified that she felt that way, but tried to cover it up and casually asked her why. She pointed out that every girl in the class had pink and every boy blue. She said she had to choose pink.

Children are like sponges, and they pick up messages. I am strongly feminist. I have never taught her that she 'had' to do anything. But society had done it for me with all the conditioning towards particular colour choices.

Gender stereotyping matters.

Oh, and the 'gun to your head' argument is very poor. No one holds a gun to my head and forces me to shave my legs, but I'd feel uncomfortable at a swimming pool if I hadn't. No one holds a gun to my head and tells me that I don't dress a boy in a frilly dress, but in today's society I would feel silly if I did. No one holds a gun to my head and tells me that I don't eat pasta carbonara for breakfast, but societal messages tell me so strongly not to that I'd feel weird if I did. Conditioning and compulsion are not all about direct compulsion (nor, indeed is conditioning always bad, but since that isn't how you framed your argument I'm not going to argue why, in this case, it is).

blonderthanred Fri 16-Nov-12 08:35:46

As the (proud) new mother of a DS, I have been really surprised by how many times when I am looking online at clothes etc, everything is divided into Baby Boy or Baby Girl. Of course I knew there would be some stuff that was pink or blue but I naively thought that babies were, well, babies. That most stuff was fairly neutral. How wrong I was!

My pet hate is how boys' stuff (toys & clothes) can be universal whereas girls' stuff can rarely be bought for boys. As a poster said earlier, having a 'tomboy' girl is something to be proud of, the equivalent for a boy is usually described less positively or linked to sexuality. I am enjoying the challenge of finding things for my DS that confound this.

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 09:10:48

Facebook, Im with you 100%.

If you dont like the pink stuff, dont buy it.
If you dont like the way shop sells their products then dont shop there.

I have no problem with the xmas advert, I havent even seen it but my Dh does the food shop as he is a better cook, so he cooks xmas dinner. Ill wash up. Not because I am a domestic drusdge or opressed, but because I would rather do that then cook.

Of course theres conditioning out there but can you not teach your child to question these things? Then maybe your dd will grow up with the ability to question societies values and eat carbonara for breakfast.

Oh and somerset of course telling someone if they dont agree with your opinion is because they dont think at all is very mature.

ThePerfectFather Fri 16-Nov-12 09:12:20

I've raised our DD1 and DD2 as a stay at home Dad for nearly 4 years now, and DD1 is incredibly "girly", into dressing up, clothes, pink, fairies etc.

I had never forced this on her, never bought her toys that are inherently "for girls" and she doesn't watch stuff like Barbie or Angeline Ballerina or whatever. Most of the kids she played with growing up were boys. Her best friend is our neighbour's son who has two brothers.

She sees her working Mum - who hates the colour pink - for maybe an hour a day before bedtime, and then all day weekends. But they don't sit around talking about Barbies and dressing each other up. Her Mum isn't a pink-and-glitter kind of person.

But the FIRST time DD1 saw a Barbie doll, she practically fell over. I bought her one and she adores it, roleplays with it, continually dresses and undresses her. She likes tea parties with her toys, she loves dressing up as a fairy, she is absolutely obsessed with the makeup aisle at the supermarket even though I, understandably, never go down there.

What explains this? I'm her main role model (she's just like me actually, it's scary) but she is absolutely fascinated by girly things. I think the main explanation is that men and women are different, so girls and boys are too. The toys she likes appeal to her on a fundamental level.

If you really think that toy manufacturers make toys and rely on parents and society forcing them on their kids, I think you're mad. They find out what kids like, and girls tend to favour one type of toy while boys favour another.

I notice huge differences already in the way she plays with other kids in large groups. All the boys tend to group up and exclude the girls, while the girls are happy to play with either gender and she vocally bemoans the fact that her best friend won't play with her when there are boys around, so has to play with other girls.

Why are the boys like this? Have they been socialised to detest girls at this age? I sincerely doubt it. I don't know any of my friends kids who have been told to reject girls as friends and companions. But in my experience they do.

To overlook simple instinct and brain chemistry is to essentially deny that at our core, we are animals. A lot of what we do is down to our genes, our brain chemistry and our instincts. You can rail against society at large, Mattel, sexism etc. all you want. But in my experience, kids will gravitate towards what they like, and there's nothing you can do about it unless you want to obsess about it and raise them like one of those poor "gender neutral" kids that are in for a life of weirdness.

If she's happy, what are you concerned about? OK she prefers "boys" toys. You know where they're kept, right? Go there, pick up toy, purchase. I manage it when DD1 wants a new Hot Wheels car without climbing onto a high horse and screaming about how unfair it is that a shop dares to simplify things.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 09:15:22

MakeItALarge: I have no problem with the xmas advert, I havent even seen it

How can you have an opinion an an ad that you haven't even seen? hmm

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Fri 16-Nov-12 09:16:41

MakeitLarge - I do teach my child to question. My point was how pervasive these views can be even you directly challenge them with your children. And I think you've missed my point about the pasta.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 09:21:08

"Of course theres conditioning out there but can you not teach your child to question these things?"

Um, yes, that's exactly what I plan to do. Fakebook is the one suggesting people shouldn't over-think things. And if you don't think (as FB recommends), then how can you question things?

"Oh and somerset of course telling someone if they dont agree with your opinion is because they dont think at all is very mature."

confused I thought it was obvious - apparently not... I was taking the piss out of Fakebook for telling everyone to stop 'over-thinking'. She is the one fully admitting she doesn't think to think much.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 09:21:57

without climbing onto a high horse and screaming about how unfair it is that a shop dares to simplify things.

Screaming? How odd, I've only noticed a discussion of the relatively recent marketing ploy to divide all toys along gender lines. Newsflash, little girls wanting pink and only pink isn't down to 'brain chemistry' (!) it's down to children absorbing advertising messages. No one's said that girls can't be fascinated by girlie things, if you think that's what people are 'screaming' about I suggest you reread the thread.

blonderthanred Fri 16-Nov-12 09:22:09

PerfectFather, it's interesting to me that you have laid down so much anecdotal evidence that the choices are societal rather than genetic - but chosen to interpret it the opposite way. I realise you will think I am doing just that but honestly, which genes, hormones or brain cells do you think make boys reject girls but girls accept either?

It's exactly my point - girls are seen as 'lesser', non-universal, their experience only of interest to their own gender. Boys are of interest to everyone! - but of course.

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 09:41:28

squoosh, the asda advert, I read the thread grin

My dc have come out with comments about pink for girls, my ds has also said things like boys cant marry boys, girls are nurses and boys are doctors. Because, as a whole, this is what he sees. Not in the media or advertising but in our day to day life. So I talk to them about why he thinks that is, and he comes to the opinion that of course girls and boys are the same and can do anything they want.

I would love to live in a world where things between sexes were equal, I am not argueing against that. My argument is I dont think toys r us promoting dolls to girls is going to cause them to not have careers, or be feminists.

Zwitterion Fri 16-Nov-12 09:49:02

*Fakebook' you may find my earlier comment ridiculous, but I stand by it.

It's not rocket science.

Girls (and boys) are messaged continuously that pink is for girls and blue for boys.

Girls choose and/or given pink toys because it's the socially acceptable thing to do at the moment

Girls toys are focused on a) how you look or b) your relationship to men/children

Aspirations narrow.

It's patently not over-thinking. It's obvious, insidious, and it's definitely getting worse

ThePerfectFather Fri 16-Nov-12 09:51:06

blonderthanred - I don't have millions of kids of my own to confirm my theories, just my own experience of my kids and other people's, and the fact that the society we live in is the way it is.

But my personal conclusions are the same; I don't think it's society that's to "blame", but rather society that is a reflection of humanity. It just sounds like more of the usual bleating and blaming of some wider, invisible force. "It's rotten old society again telling our kids what to do!". I don't buy it.

HazleNutt Fri 16-Nov-12 10:14:17

How does the gender division make things easier to find, like someone claimed here? Not everybody assumes that dinosaurs are for boys and therefore must be in boys section. What's wrong with just sections for "dolls", "legos", "puzzles" ans similar?

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 10:19:50

I don't think it's society that's to "blame", but rather society that is a reflection of humanity. It just sounds like more of the usual bleating and blaming of some wider, invisible force. "It's rotten old society again telling our kids what to do!". I don't buy it.

It's called m-a-r-k-e-t-i-n-g and marketing is part of our society. Do you seriously think girls are wired in the womb to gravitate to pink and boys are hardwired to gravitate to blue? Clearly you do buy it, lock stock and barrel you're just unable to admit it.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 10:28:27

What Zwitterion said


I like pink stuff being together. Tis easier to avoid.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 10:35:43

Press release 2012 : "The launch of LEGO Friends came after a $40 million global marketing push, according to Bloomberg Businessweek. “This is the most significant strategic launch we’ve done in a decade,” said LEGO Group Chief Executive Officer Jørgen Vig Knudstorp. “We want to reach the other 50 percent of the world’s children.”

WTAF! I am 44, and grew up with Lego. Pink might not stink, but this attitude certainly does.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 10:36:18

And guess what my dd wants for Xmas?

crazyhatlady Fri 16-Nov-12 10:37:03

Surely it just makes stuff easier to find though? If it was all just mixed up with a big unisex sign how on earth would you know where to start looking. Just because a toy is labelled 'boys' doesn't mean you can't buy it for a girl. If you want to buy a girl a monster truck you'll know where to look for it, makes sense to me.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 10:39:00

crazy - as already said, you have sections for lego, cars, jigsaws, dolls etc...You are saying - if you want to buy a Monster Truck for a girl, you know you can find it - in the Boy's section ? hmm

MrRected Fri 16-Nov-12 10:41:38

Whatever next? Unisex clothing departments?

Op yabu and unrealistic.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 10:44:20

How does it make it easier to find?

Surely it would be easier to find stuff if they label it by the toy type - LEGO, DOLLS, TRUCKS, PLAY DOH, SKATE BOARDS, ART SETS, DINOSAURS, etc.

Novel idea, no?

When they label it BOYS and GIRLS you have to wander around aimlessly, wondering which toys they deem to be suitable for girls, and which for boys...?

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 10:44:29

Marketing - an appeal to the masses.
They arent doing this to cause segragation its because that is what sells to most.

Maybe that should be adressed, rather than banging on about how shops operate?

As for saying that its got worse, try reading famous five. That was marketed equally at both sexes. With a running commentary that if the girls did xyz they could be nearly as good as a boy

Thank god things have improved and she can now read Harry Potter, not the crap I had.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 10:45:07

crazyhatlady why is it ok for these things to have been decided to be 'boy's toys' in the first place? Obviously we know we can but these things for boys, girls, animal, mineral, whever we want, but it's the message behind it that's offensive. These are for boys, those are for girls.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 10:46:10

Whatever next? Unisex clothing departments?

Exactly that.

kim147 Fri 16-Nov-12 10:46:23

See - if something was in the "girl's section", DS (7) wouldn't want it. Because it's for girls. And despite constant reminding that anyone can play with anything, he would not want anything from the girl's section.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 10:46:36


Good Lord, I've heard it all now...

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 10:47:46

Interesting short article on the subject.

Clothing is different though - well, taking the dress vs trouser argument out of it - adult women and men tend to be different shapes and sizes. For kids, clothes are clothes though.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 10:47:48

They arent doing this to cause segragation its because that is what sells to most.

We know it's all about getting people to spend more but it causes segregation.

not read thread sorry but I looked in the ELC catalogue the other day and was pleasantly surprised, There was a fair amount of segregation but I saw boys pushing prams and playing with toy kitchens.

kim147 Fri 16-Nov-12 10:49:27

Hamleys altered the signs to be less blue and pink.

I also read "I know a rhino" to the children and the child in that (not sure whether it's a boy or girl) spends most of the book in jeans, blue stripy t shirt and trainers, until they put on a huge pink frilly tutu - love it!!

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 10:56:34

I once had a row with a friened about whether Charlie (from Charlie and Lola) was male or female. Theres lots of shops that dont do boy/girl sections. Shop in them.

ConsiderCasey Fri 16-Nov-12 11:02:08

It's about choice. Our kids should be able to freely choose the toys that they play with or the colours that they wear.

But they're not given a real choice, because what's on offer to them is very restricted according to their gender. I think it's unfair to expect young children to stand up against the pressures of marketing, their peers and society in general.

And, it's unrealistic to assert that the preferences our kids currently make is uninfluenced by those pressures.

He's her big brother surely?

HazleNutt Fri 16-Nov-12 12:15:10

What's wrong with unisex clothes? Shops in Sweden do it, you just have JEANS, DRESSES, TOPS and not "tops suitable for girls only". A 3-year old boy and girl are actually not built that differently that they need different jeans.

fuzzpig Fri 16-Nov-12 12:22:37


crazyhatlady Fri 16-Nov-12 12:30:24

Have to say i haven't actually came across a toy shop with 'boys toys/girls toys' signs. I was thinking of online shopping. My local tesco for example has 2 aisles of toys and there's no such signs, they're just mixed up.

It would be impossible to compartmentalize everything by type of toy, you'd have signs all over the place.

squoosh I don't really get why you find it so offensive? Yes there are girls that will like 'boys toys' and vice versa but in my experience the majority of girls do tend to like typical girls toys and majority of boys like 'typical' boys toys.
My ds is definitely into 'boys stuff' through his own choice (there's no male in the house so not been influenced in any way).

There is nothing wrong with boys and girls liking different things. considercasey No one is taking the 'choice' away, the toys are all there under one roof and you're free to buy whatever you like.

grimbletart Fri 16-Nov-12 12:34:52

May I give a perspective as an 'elderly' mumsnetter? My childhood was the 40s and 50s when gender roles (after blurring somewhat in the war) reverted to very traditional lines. Yet I played with train sets and meccano and with toys of all colours. I was also dressed in all colours. My girls were born in the 60s and early 70s, so just before apparent gender equality really kicked in. Their baby, toddler and children's clothes were of all colours, nothing particularly pink or glittery. Likewise their toys. Yet now, as gender equality is (mostly) accepted and girls and women are doing things that would mostly have been unthinkable even 30 years ago (think being soldiers, playing rugby, leading countries) we are suddenly deluged in a sea of pink and blue and gender labelling.

I accept that by selling for girls and boys separately retailers potentially increase their markets. So it may be that simple.

However, I wonder if there is an underlying almost subconscious message/backlash going on i.e. a feeling that the more life has opened up for women the more is the urge to put them back in their little (pink) boxes.

Probably over-thinking this...grin

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 12:35:43

You're right, you don't get it crazyhatlady.

didimisssomething Fri 16-Nov-12 12:41:31


My girls love typical boy toys but would love them more if the branding wasn't so obviously boy targetted. They want lego technic but aren't fond of monster trucks etc. It's not just a simple matter of buying what you want - it would be nice if our dcs could choose freely rather that always have in the back of their minds the gender stereotypes imposed on them. The pink sparkles and blue monster trucks just reinforce this.

But hey if we want a world where girls don't think and boys don't care..........

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 12:47:05

Grimbletart, very interesting point. This week I was reading the Stepford Wives - a book written 40 years ago - which has a recent forward written by Chuck Palahniuk, stating basically that after all those years of women's liberation, we seem to have come full circle, "choice" reigns and women have started "Barbie -fying" themselves again. He summed up by saying we should be very afraid....

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 12:51:03

I lived with my grandparents as a child and spent a lot of time with my cousins as we were alll growing up. We had a cupboard with toys in, and the toys got handed down to one child after another. There was lots of lego and Fisher Price, and a farmyard, and soldiers and cars, and some dolls etc. I don't recall ever feeling that our toys were gender specific - in fact there were 4 girls before a boy came along. I bet the cupboard would look VERY different today.

CanonFodder Fri 16-Nov-12 13:02:12

OP, YAabsolutelyNBU!! And I'm actually surprised at how many people on here are telling you that you are, but that I guess is because you are asking some of the mainstream about the mainstream and that's why you are getting those answers. For most people I know it's not an issue, which is fine for them, I have no problem with them pinkifying or nourishing their offspring to their hearts content, what bugs me is that there are in toy shops whole isles of pink things for girls, and another of all colours, but highly masculine biased things for boys. What the freaking heck happened to all the Green, Red, blue Yellow things for girls. What if they hate pink?? My DD did, still does.

I don't agree that the manufacturers make what is in demand either. I think they make what they like and advertise it and then we THINk that is what we want, or more to the point our poor kids are bombarded with ads and they think it's what they want. (which is why we have an ad ban in this house.)

Bring back multicolour for girls for gods sake!

CanonFodder Fri 16-Nov-12 13:03:51

Oh, and is real struggle to buy girls PJ's that aren't some shade of pink or purple and covered in fecking princesses, Mini Mouse, Hello Kitty or Tatty Teddy. it's grim.

Fakebook Fri 16-Nov-12 13:07:50

But I suppose if you rarely think at all, and certainly if you're not the type to question things, then yes, this probably does seem like over-thinking to you.
^ I thought it was obvious - apparently not... I was taking the piss out of Fakebook for telling everyone to stop 'over-thinking'. She is the one fully admitting she doesn't think to think much.^

Just because I disagree with you, I'm stupid and I don't think? hmm. At least I haven't lowered myself into making personal attacks over something as trivial as this.. Absolutely pathetic. And you do not have a right to take the piss out of me because I disagree with your pattern of thought.

carovioletfizz Fri 16-Nov-12 13:10:17

I have noticed on Mumsnet that there is a slight element of boastfulness about daughters not liking pink and glittery things, as if they are somehow slightly superior to the girls who do happen to like them. I have 4 daughters and some of them liked girly stuff, some of them didn't - they are all equally intelligent as far as I can see - inasmuch as girls shouldn't be made to feel they cannot like dinosaurs and space rockets, mothers shouldn't be made to feel that their daughters are silly or inferior if they do happen to like stuff that is perceived to be girly.

kim147 Fri 16-Nov-12 13:15:32

Nothing wrong with liking pink.
Just would be nice to have other colours available.
Same for DS. It's hard to find bright clothes for boys.

Everlong Fri 16-Nov-12 13:19:16

Is it the children who don't like the pink or the parents?

Like they're making some kind of statement?

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 13:22:35

The statement is that there is too much emphasis on girls being encouraged to aspire to a very narrow idea of femininity. Obviously most little girls adore pink, because that's what's being sold to them.

Everlong Fri 16-Nov-12 13:25:45

But what does it matter? In the grand scheme of things.

Everlong Fri 16-Nov-12 13:29:32

I don't have girls so I'm not in an authority to really comment.

But I've had 5 boys. Who have all had lots of different toys. Mostly boys stuff but the odd hoover, kitchen etc.

I don't understand the angst. Genuinely.

LDNmummy Fri 16-Nov-12 13:33:49

Oh I hate the gender specificness of anything child related.

Everyone thinks DD is a boy because she wears a red puffer coat shock

I buy every colour of clothing including pinky colours. I don't discriminate which means she also has a lot of boys clothes. People look at her in dungarees and assume she is a boy. Just yesterday someone stopped me to ask as she had been debating over it with her friend. In a way I think it means I have been successful in creating a somewhat gender neutral environment for my DD.

I buy more boys trousers for her simply because they are made for more practical playtime's. Has anyone else noticed that? They even have the elasticated cuffs so nothing can go up the legs and I think that is brilliant for cold and windy days. It really annoys me that they don't do that for girls clothing.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 13:37:15

Well it matters to me greatly if science sets are marketed as boys toys and kitchens are mrketed as girls toys. Is it not obvious why that matters?

KatyPeril Fri 16-Nov-12 13:51:07

My daughter has pink stuff. She also has cars and dinosaurs. Her favourite T-Rex is wearing a pink dress. He's a boy dinosaur aswell. What does this mean???!! Occupation-wise, she's determind to be a tattooist.

Everlong Fri 16-Nov-12 13:53:45

I've bought my boys kitchens and hoovers. So no it doesn't matter that they're marketed for a girl.

I still bought them because they wanted them.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 13:58:00

It mightn't matter to you how they're marketed but there are often threads on here along the lines of 'I won't/my dh won't let my son play with a doll's house/pram/tea set'.

So the marketing clearly works on lots and lots of other people.

Everlong Fri 16-Nov-12 14:00:17

Well I can only comment on me and what I've bought and how I've not given in much thought.

Miggsie Fri 16-Nov-12 14:02:49

Rollerblades in toy shops etc: childs sizes available in pink or blue.
Ditto lamps, hair brushes, school bags, bathrobes, towels.
And they sell because it is SO BLOODY HARD TO FIND THEM IN ANY OTHER COLOUR, and most people can't spend days searching for alternatives.

My DD hates both pink and blue. Thank God the internet exists so I can buy things in different colours.
I spent my childhood in blue, green, orange, brown, red...this choice does not exist for DD unless I try very hard.

And make her clothes.

As for shoes - we have to buy in the boys department because only boys apparently want shoes to run around in and not deform their feet by age 12.

Children's walking boots - why does adding a pink bit make them for girls only ?- the fit and style is exactly the sameas the "boy" version. It is a ploy to make sure you cannot hand stuff from a boy to girl or vice versa and have to buy a whole new set each time.

Is there a genetic marker for liking pink or blue?
No there isn't.

Did we have this pink/blue divide 20 years ago?
No we didn't.

Are both boys and girls human beings and members of the same species?
Yes they are.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 14:20:07

Yanbu at all!

I was looking online for xmas presents the other day and the amount of websites that have their toys defined by gender drove me mad!!

John lewis does it, smyths toys does it, boots does it. I dont buy toys according to gender but i have to make an effort to go through the girls or the boys sections.

Why cant you just have a role play sectuon so all toy cookers and toy tools etc would be in that. A lego/construction section, a dress up section.

Toys are toys they are not gender specific so why shoukd they be marketed as such? Because its easy? Lazy? And yes it helps nanufacturers to sell more as thet can make girl or boy versions.

My eldest is 13 and it wasnt as bad when he was little, it has got much worse and children do pick up on this marketing and oeople do fall for it and without thinking will buy the gender appripriate version.

I was in m&s the other day and was looking at gruffalo pj's very cute and gender neutral, when the shop assustant realised they were fir my dd she directed me to the girls gruffalo pj's....yes they were pink!!! Ffs the ones i had been looking at wete red/green? I dont know why they even needed to make a 'girls' pair in pink but they have done!!

I've read this thread with interest as I am expecting DC1 (a girl) in January. In my opinion gender stereotyping really does matter, and I wonder to what extent I will be able to avoid it. Just buying baby clothes, I have been shocked at how little there is which is gender neutral.

I think the colour pink is a bit of a red herring, it's more what the colour symbolises. So I'd rather buy my little girl a pink fire engine, than a multicoloured toy kitchen, for example.

But the obsession with pink and glitter is a symbol of the way that as they grow up little girls will be judged on their appearance, on how pretty they look, rather than on what they say or do.

I think grimble hit the nail on the head earlier - as women have gained more legal rights, society has developed a more subtle way to control women, which is by making sure we spend all of our newly-acquired money and leisure time obsessing about our appearance. And the really clever bit is that we have been convinced that we are doing it because we want to.

grimbletart Fri 16-Nov-12 14:45:15

I was in the hairdresser's a couple of days ago. My regular hairdresser is on maternity leave having just had a baby boy. I was chatting with the young hairdresser who did my hair about it who said my hairdresser had kept it secret which sex she was expecting. I said that when I had my babies there were no scans so it was always a surprise. She said she thought it was better to know because then you know whether to buy pink or blue!

This from clearly intelligent modern young woman.

I couldn't help pointing out that pink and blue were not the only colours and said that when my children were small their babygros came in wonderful colours - I have pictures of my daughters in orange stripey ones, ones with navy and red squares, yellow with red cuffs and collars and so on.

It goes back to my earlier post that clothes and toys are becoming more, not less gendered. And even young women are buying into this brainwashing.

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Fri 16-Nov-12 14:59:40

See Mrsbusgywugsy - I feel quite strongly about 'pinking' things that aren't meant to be pink. I can't get too worked up about a pink scooter- except it would be refreshing if occasionally it came in orange or green, not pink or blue. But I get very cross about turning things pink for girls. Because it sends the subtle message that the 'real world' version is for boys. I would rather have a pink kitchen (let's fact it, pine ain't attractive to kids), pink scooter or pink doll's dress than a pink fire engine, or a pink rugby ball, or a pink globe.

The whole 'pink a normal thing to make it for girls' follows through into adulthood with the appalling 'pink it and shrink it' for 'women's' electrical goods.

HazleNutt Fri 16-Nov-12 15:06:00

How can you say it does not matter and it does not influence kids, when even on this thread we have little girls convinced they can only have pink items and boys who suddenly refuse to play with their friends, because those friends happen to be girls and therefore must only like "girl stuff"?
Where do they get such ideas from except for gendered marketing? Born this way? I don't think so.

blonderthanred Fri 16-Nov-12 15:29:45

grimble that's what we did - kept the sex a secret (partly to try and avoid pre-birth stereotyping!). The number of times I was asked, well how will people know whether to buy pink or blue? Or my favourite, if you're keeping it a secret you won't be able to show anyone the nursery as they will be able to see if you've painted it pink or blue!

Er... We painted it white. With green accessories. As we would have for either sex. Because we like white. And green.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 16-Nov-12 15:32:47

Oooh white with green accessories sounds lovely blonder !

blonderthanred Fri 16-Nov-12 15:42:38

Thank you! We love it.

crazyhatlady Fri 16-Nov-12 15:49:16

ok, starting to 'get it' now squoosh. I think because i have a boy it hasn't really concerned me, perhaps if i had a daughter i'd think differently.
However the whole gender stereotyping starts at home surely? Unless your kid is sat watching tv ads all day they're not really going to be affected by marketing. It's the parents who get sucked in then project their views onto their kids. What does that say about them?

I'm not much of a consumer myself and i'm not swayed by ad campaigns either.
My ds has a buggy, a dolly, a toy kitchen etc. which he loves. I've never turned round and said to him 'they're girls toys' because i don't think like that but i guess a lot of parents do. And no doubt when he starts school the children who's parents do think that way will then project their views onto my son.

As far as clothes go i hate pink and blue and have found plenty shops selling brights/stripes etc. even in baby clothes.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 16:23:01

actually i think the gender stereotyping is just as bad for boys, one of my boys is a big fanof all things purple, pink and sparkly and happily wore dress up fairy outfits, tutus etc but i was slated on mnet for allowing him to do so and i think a lot of poeple happily let little boys play with girls stuff when they are toddlers but the thought of a boy wearing a tutu or doing more 'girly' stuff once they are school age and you get a barrage of NOOO dont let him he will be bullied etc! hello what happened to telling the bullies they are wrong! so boys get just as stereotyped and pink becomes a no go area for boys which is just as bad as it taking over girls things.

i have four boys and one girl, its been much easier to buy nice clothes for my dd, lots of variation in colours etc, whereas for boys tho it is available its much harder nad generally much more expensive to buy boys clothes that are not brown or blue or camoflauge, i have and do get nice stuff but i have to hunt harder for it, whereas for dd its quite easy to get nice non pink stuff, she does have some pink, but not much tbf, but all her clothes are bright and colourful.

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 16:33:43

crazyhatlady your second paragraph about gender stereotyping starting at home is spot on. Ive been thinking about this a lot and my ds had a toy kitchen and hoover. That was what he wanted, dd didnt.

We dont watch much tv, and none of the toy shops we usually shop in have noticeable boy or girl signs (Im not saying they dont, just not that I have ever seen)

ThePerfectFather Fri 16-Nov-12 16:40:07

OK so wait, wait, wait.

A lot of you seem happy to blame marketing for your kids desires for blue/pink or trucks/barbies but aren't you then admitting that basically you have totally failed to raise them as individuals who should follow their hearts desires, and you've let some marketing guru do it all for you?

These are the main cases I've seen that annoy the hell out of me:

"My kids are different from these two simplistic categories! I demand for things to be changed to accomodate me and my kids!" which I'm going to award the "Selfish Special Snowflake of Impotent Rage"

or there is:

"My kids WOULD be different, but someone has made them this way! Something should be done! I blame marketing!"

Which gets awarded the "Feeling Guilty but Simultaneously Devolving Oneself of Responsibility" Award.

Boys and girls are different. That doesn't mean one is better than the other, but they are different. I am sure that makes me an incredible sexist in the eyes of many people, or "part of the problem" but I think you're just trying too hard to find something to rage against.

My DD1 loves all kinds of things I did at her age - cars, insects, train sets, super heroes. I have probably subconsciously encouraged interest in these things by my own interest. But I have never, ever, even once expressed any interest in those despicable Lelly Kelly shoes - yet the moment she saw the shoes she gasped in amazement and told me she had to have them. Why? Is it marketing? If it is, why doesn't she want all the other toys just as much?

Who is to "blame" for this? Is it some colossal conspiracy or is it just human nature?

And more to the point, if your kid is happy who gives a shit if you have to go through the TRAUMA of looking in the boys aisle for a toy for your girl? Are you being denied access to Hot Wheels cars because you don't have a boy? Are your boys stoned for playing dress up and wearing a skirt?

As for splitting up the aisles in the store by category....that's already exactly how it is. Go to Toys R Us and the end of each aisle has the toy types in that aisle listed by category - "Aisle 90 Lego, Star Wars, Pokemon".

There's no sign saying "no vaginas allowed".

girliefriend Fri 16-Nov-12 16:43:46

yanbu this is something that really annoys me, as is defining a girl who dares to like something from the 'boys' section a tomboy!!!

My dd hates bloody crappy barbies and anything pink - thank God!!

I often have to tell her that there is no such thing as 'boys' toys or 'girls' toys just toys!!! She is welcome to play with what she likes and it doesn't have to mean anything.

My brother annoyed me recently as he didn't want his son (who is 3 yo) playing with a dolls house as it is too girly!!! WTAF?!! He is 3yo let him play with what he wants!!!

<girlie takes a deep breath and goes to make a brew >

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 16:47:17

Why the fury PerfectFather?

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Fri 16-Nov-12 16:49:51

It's not about marketing PerfectFather. It is about societal shaping. It' s not about adverts per say, it about a culture that gives our children thousands of messages a day about who a boy should be and who a girl should be. However much I would like to, I can't filter that all out.

You do a marvellous line in talking down to anyone who disagrees with you too.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 16:52:18

You can stamp your feet as much as you like but the fact remains that the marketing of gender specific children's items is stronger now than ever before. It is fatuous to suggest that kids aren't influenced by things they see in the shops, things their friends own and ads on the televison.

Girls liking pink isn't genetic. Boys liking blue isn't genetic.

Why are you so angry that people on this thread oppose sexism?

HazleNutt Fri 16-Nov-12 16:56:19

I think it's worse on boys. As said, most people don't really mind if a girl plays with "boys" stuff or wears "boys" clothes. You certainly get more of a reaction if you put a boy in a dress and give him a barbie. As it's fine to aspire to be like a boy, but not the other way around.

PerfectFather so your DD was just born to like Lelly Kelly shoes? Without any outside influence whatsoever?
Never seen any ads that tell her that girls in pink and flowery is pretty, no relatives who give her girly things and tell her how gorgeous she looks in them; don't have any friends who claim that pink and sparkly is really good thing to have, basically grown up in a vacuum and still likes a certain brand?

I agrfee with YoullScream here. Despite my best efforts, I am still having to compete for my DCs attention against all the marketing going on. Yes I am careful about how much/what kind of tv they see, but it's not just there. They see stuff in the shops, they hear things from friends and classmates, it's all around us and the kids soak it all up like sponges.

I have to repeat and reinforce that both of them can be whoever they want to be.

As for sorting toys by type rather than by some preconcieved idea of gender. Doesn't happen around here, the delineation of toys in shops is definitely influenced by gender stereotyping.

I know there's nothing to stop me going down the "boys" aisle for something for DD, but it's the message she's receiving that somehow she's not in the right place for her gender that gets up my nose. Luckily DD is now 12 and is beginning to understand what is going on. DS aged 8 is not quite there yet.

The point is, if marketing didn't work, there'd be no adverts on tv, on billboards, on radio, in newspapers, magazines, etc, etc. It is all around us, so you'd need to live in a cave to ensure you don't see/hear, etc any advertising.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 17:49:41

Fakebook - I didn't call you stupid; that was your word.

These threads always, always, get at least one person coming on to say, 'there's no problem - stop over-thinking it'.

I find it maddening. Stopping thinking about it certainly sweeps the problem under the rug, but it absolutely does not solve it or make it go away.

The reason I brought the Asda Christmas ad into the mix is because of the much bigger picture that social conditioning and gender stereotyping impact on.

When our children's paths in lives are already being determined at such a young age - it feeds into expectations that are placed on us as adults. The woman doing all the housework while her useless husband does absoutley nothing is the thick end of the wedge; gender-specific toys is the thin.

If you (generic) think the one doesn't feed into the other, you're mistaken.

ThePerfectFather Fri 16-Nov-12 18:05:15

Firstly she's only 3 and a half, so until very recently her friends haven't been saying things like "I like Lelly Kelly, don't you". The peer pressure element is minimal. Most of her playmates have been boys. This is purely coincidence and based on who I know and the sex of their kids, rather than some plan on my part.

Secondly, most of her character and her life experience has been shared with me. I don't like glitter, I don't like Barbies and I don't wear pink (much). Kids take almost all their cues from their parents, and especially their primary caregiver, i.e. me. She says things that I say, likes things that I like, and tries to copy me and please me a lot of the time, like most young children do with their parents. There are also lots of things I have tried to encourage her to enjoy, but which she hates.

Because despite all that influence from me, she seeks out toys and games that she knows I don't have any interest in, like Barbies and Lelly bleedin' Kelly.


If I had a boy, he would doubtless seek out games that he likes and I have an interest in too - is he doing that to please me? If so, why isn't she? Why is she fulfilling a gender stereotype to which she has limited exposure? Oh yeah, because of marketing and societal pressures. Of course.

But what pressures do you think society exerts on a two-or-three year old kid? Given her incredibly limited understanding of things, just how greatly do you think she can be impressed upon?

She only started going to pre-school six months ago, and most of the time we spent out and about as a twosome and then when the baby arrived, as three. She hasn't spent 3 years strapped to a chair watching adverts for Barbie since when she watches telly it's almost always CBeebies, which has minimal advertising and is generally pretty gender neutral.

She's young so she's only just starting to understand that there are men and women and they are different. She has never EVER been told "that's for boys" or "that's for girls" by me or any of our friends. You don't hear those words on television since, rightly, everyone would complain.

Most of the women on this forum are raising their kids, and those kids will be exhibiting behaviour that's more typical of their gender stereotype. Are the boys acting like boys and that's society or marketing or some other outside influence? Are the girls acting like girls because they are copying their Mums?

If boys act "like boys", is that down to society? Does the fact they've been raised by their Mother's mean that the Mother's feminine influence is negligible? Do kids try their best to act like the kids on TV and ignore the 24/7 influence of their parents?

I just think it's incredibly foolish to say that society and marketing are what is making my three year old act the way she has ever since she was a baby. It ignores the fact that we share over 90% of our DNA with chimps. We're animals who have evolved to have higher brain functions, but at our core we are still animals and a lot of how and why we act is down to instinct and DNA.

Otherwise what you're basically saying is that the nature vs nurture debate is happily settled, and it's all TVs fault and nature plays very little part. I really, really disagree and I think nature plays a huge part in deciding who we are.

MrsDeVere Fri 16-Nov-12 18:07:15

At last a man has arrived to put us on the right track

<relaxes and goes back to the kitchen>

ThePerfectFather Fri 16-Nov-12 18:23:44

MrsDeVere, that's just pathetic. That is just the most pathetically feeble response you could possibly have come up with. At no point do I even hint at anything remotely like that.

Or should I say "your tiny female brain couldn't comprehend my comment, now get back to your knitting". Happy now?

Oh wait, this is "Mumsnet" so maybe we SAHD's aren't welcome here.

Just like all the places offering "mum and toddler" mornings that you all no doubt boycott. And all the ads saying "Mums! Are bathtimes a chore?" that you rage about and lobby against.

Oh wait, you don't, because it's just easier than having a sign saying "Mums, Dads, Transgender People + children of non-specific gender! Coffee or mineral water and playgroup morning here"!

It's just a shorthand. It's just easier. A shop has a section that groups the boys toys and girls toys together, and people are getting upset and claiming that society is corrupting and influencing their kids. It's pathetic. The only thing more pathetic is the idea that my opinion - whether you agree with it or not - is sexist or "male".

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 18:31:18

of course three year olds are affected by advertising and its nto just on tv.

and cbeebies isnt gender neutral either, someone doesnt have to say something is for girls of boys for them to get that message, its int he advertising and the way its promoted, every picture that shows lelli kelly shoes is of girls and often with wands/make up etc. they appeal to all children because they are sparkly and colourful, hell my boys liked them as toddlers as well, but you can be dam sure as soon as they start pre-school they do start picking up the messages that htey are for girls and the adverts are aimed at girls.

look at 'towardsthestars' a fb group for those interested in the impact of mainstream media and advertising on children. its a great page.

and yes its blood annoying tha ti go online to look for toys and they are listed as 'girls' or 'boys' toys, list them in categories that describe what they actually ARE, not who they are marketed to!

carovioletfizz Fri 16-Nov-12 18:32:17

I agree with a lot of what you say TPF. People are born with likes and dislikes. I hate curry and being too hot, but love avocado and also, sparkly stuff. Why can this not be down to instinct, and personal taste, rather than the insidious evil marketing giants? Some little girls like pink, glittery things. Not because they've been told to, but because that is their taste. What is so wrong with that?

carovioletfizz Fri 16-Nov-12 18:36:48

Can I just add, that our little boy regularly goes around in his sister's pink nappies that are hand me downs, drinks from a pink beaker and plays with her pink dolls house. I don't deliberately direct any of my children towards one particular things - it is my experience of my own childhood and of my children, that children do just have their own likes and dislikes and there's nothing wrong with that if those likes happen to include a little girl liking pink, fairies and sparkles.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 16-Nov-12 18:39:02

I tend to rather agree with you there TPF.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with boys being boys and girls being girls and toys being sectioned.

Equality isn't about gender specifics etc. It's about acknowledging our differences, understanding them and knowing we are equal in differing ways and fully respecting them.

If that makes sense confused

sunshine401 Fri 16-Nov-12 18:40:29

I've never seen a "boys section" ??? However if you have a mind set that certain toys mean a certain gender then you will see a "boys section" All I see and my children for that matter is the TOYS AISLE. smile

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 18:43:01

there is nothing wrong with any child liking pink, boy or girl, its the incessant marketing of pink and glittery that is aimed at girls that is the problem.

and your little boy may well wander around in pink now, you can almost guarantee once he starts school that if he continued to do so it may become a problem.

we have been lucky that the primary my kids attend does lots of dress up/role play etc, they make no distinction between the genders, but at the age of almost 8 my ds3 has decided on his own not to wear his tutu/fairy outfits out as 'boys arent meant to wear them mummy' sad i was slated on ment for saying i was going to buy him a new fairy dress (which he asked for) apparently iwas setting him up to be bullied etc. that is wrong, girls are allowed to do 'boy' things yet it is frowned up for boys to like 'girly' things and they kids do pick up on this through advertising and once at pre-school and school.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 16-Nov-12 18:44:02

Oh stop jumping on words sunshine, you know what I mean. I for one have gone on the net and typed in boys toys say in argos for instance and guess what came up it cetainly wasn't a pair of fairy wings, so bloody what.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 18:44:33

go online sunshine look at the toys section for most retailers ie john lewis, boots etc and the drop down boxes to help you choose toys give you the option of clicking girls/boys and some toy stores still ahve signs up saying girls/boys i think entertainer is one, or the signage is all done in pink or blue, even if they dont explicitly say it the implication is there.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 16-Nov-12 18:45:35

But of course if my son wanted a pushchair I'd go type in girls toys, does it really matter, saves me frigging time to be honest. grin

MrsDeVere Fri 16-Nov-12 18:47:00

Gosh perfect watch out for the old blood pressure there.

But thanks again for telling me what I think and why I think it.


<knits a nice ego cosy for perfect>

sunshine401 Fri 16-Nov-12 18:48:23

lol I don't do online shopping sorry
However it does not annoy me smile

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 18:48:51

if you go to the john lewis toy section the box on your left lets you pick toys by age, brand, character and girls or boys toys, why? there is no need to specify that a toy is for a girl or a boy!

sunshine401 Fri 16-Nov-12 18:50:36


I was not even responding to a comment from you calm down smile
I was answering to the op.

ThePerfectFather Fri 16-Nov-12 18:50:51

MrsDeVere ahh I see what this is. I have dared to say that perhaps part of who you are is out of your control and decided by things like genetics. Sorry if that's above your little head, missy.

You no doubt prefer to think of yourself as somehow magical and unique and existing on a plain far, far above the usual one of human experience and simple biology. Typical woman. Right?

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 18:54:03

ha ha ha oh god you are funny tpf

but yes mrsdevere is rather magical and unique, she is blood amazing actual and far from typical, hth smile

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 18:57:37

ThePerfectFather look, just accept that you have committed the incredibly dull and common trope of coming along and deciding that, as a man, you know best and explaining everything in a ridiculously patronising way.

I know you probably can't see it. "I'm just giving my opinion, grr, bloody feminists taking my balls away," you think to yourself. You're not though. You're just being a patronising dickhead and men do it all. the. time. It is BORING.

Some people believe in nature not nurture! Shock! That's really all you needed to say, we do all get it.

However, since the very idea that nature trumps nurture is so obviously bollocks, you can probably just leave the explaining to someone who actually understands absolutely fucking anything.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 18:58:20

oh and no-one is saying that genetics doesnt play a role, i am pretty sure it does, but having studied sociology you would be a fool if you dont realise the effect that nurture has and unfortunately we dont raise our children in a bubble, right from the moment they are born (or even before if you find out hte sex) then they are subjected to gender stereotyping, we are surrounded by it and it has got much much worse in the last ten years. certainly when my ds1 (13) was a baby it was no-where near as prevelant as it is now.

It's always harder to see the effects of discrimination when you belong to the privileged group, isn't it perfect?

Hazlenutt you said 'I think it's worse on boys. As said, most people don't really mind if a girl plays with "boys" stuff or wears "boys" clothes. You certainly get more of a reaction if you put a boy in a dress and give him a barbie. As it's fine to aspire to be like a boy, but not the other way around.'

But the reason it is OK for a girl to act like a boy, or for a woman to have masculine qualities, is that males are higher status. So for a woman to want to be more like a man is only natural, but it is seen as odd for a man to want to act or dress like a woman, because why would they want to copy the behaviour of the inferior, lower status group?

MrsDeVere Fri 16-Nov-12 18:59:45

The only part of me that is out of my control young man, is my pelvic floor.

5 kids will do that to you.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 16-Nov-12 19:00:36

You also have to throw into the pot peer pressure.

Sunshine - I'm calm honey.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 19:03:23

i'll have you know you can have 5 kids and still ahve control of your pelvic floor actually mrsdevere grin

and yes mrsbugsy it is true that boys cant aspire to be girls as they seen as weaker of inferior in some way, but it is shite that little boys end up feeling this way, my ds3 doesnt see pink and purple and fairies as weak or inferior, he just likes them but is told that its not ok, even if he hasnt been explicitily told in so many words he has picked up on that through advertising and through peer pressure and thats sad sad and its not ok.

MrsDeVere Fri 16-Nov-12 19:05:21

You say that now 5mad but I happen to know that you are a fair bit younger than me little missy.

Just you wait,

ClippedPhoenix Fri 16-Nov-12 19:07:37

cracks up at MrsDevere - I've had ONE and I only have to cough and I piss grin should change my user name to slack alice

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 19:09:05

la la la sticks fingers in ears, i am sooo not going to end up 5madpissyknickers....

and squeeze one, two, three, four, five, release and squeeze....

....wanders of to google pelvic floor toners....

Oh absolutely 5mad, I agree the effect on little boys can be just as bad.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 19:14:22

it is and yet we try and combat sexism against girls (well some of us do!) but if we let a boy wear girly stuff etc then we are wrong and shouldnt incase they get bullied, well how about we deal with the bullies!! i was essentially told i was a crap mum for letting my ds3 have a fairy dress etc, i was going to 'let him be bullied' etc i would do NO such thing!

this attitude that pink is for girls is what needs to be challeneged, there is nothing wrong with pink (tho i dont much like it as a colour) the attitude that is just for girls is whats wrong, the incessant marketing of it towards girls is the problem!

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 19:21:21

TPF is being deliberately obtuse, this thread isn't about the differences beween girls and boys. It's about the the way the marketing of children's toys, clothes etc. has changed markedly in the last 15 years ago to encourage kids to conform to narrow gender stereotypes from a young age. I'm aware that the reasoning is to encourage parents to buy twice, this doesn't make it any less harmful.

Some people don't have a problem with this, fine. Other people do not care for this backward step.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 19:31:46

"You no doubt prefer to think of yourself as somehow magical and unique and existing on a plain far, far above the usual one of human experience and simple biology."


It's clearly you claiming this status, ThePerfectFather since you're the one who's apparently immune to nurture, marketing and social conditioning. wink

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 19:58:57

I agree with a lot of what perfect father said but am horrified the second a man turned up on the thread things got nasty.

Plenty of female posters have diasgreed with the op and thats fine. As soon as a man does it the 'get back in the kitchen' comments appear.

How the fuck can anyone complain about gender stereotyping then make a comment like men do it all the time?

The hypocrisy here is mind blowing.

MrsDeVere Fri 16-Nov-12 20:00:04

Is it fuck.
He was rude and patronising.
He got called on it.

Boo hoo.

RudolphUcker Fri 16-Nov-12 20:05:12

Is this Mansplaining? Isn't it tedious? And quite rude, really.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 20:06:44

Where is the hypocrisy?! I've called anyone I've disagreed wih (you included) regardless of gender.

ClippedPhoenix Fri 16-Nov-12 20:07:26

Blimey, I agreed with parts of his first post then he came back like a frigging bull in a china shop grin a wolf in sheeps clothing there then.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 20:08:59

His posts were cockish and patronising and ranty in the extreme. That's what people reacted to.

carovioletfizz Fri 16-Nov-12 20:11:32

What MakeItALarge said.

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 20:14:16

It is not hypocritical to say that it is specifically men who do something.

Now let's all go and paint rainbows and unicorns everywhere. I had a fairly good day because a 7-year-old boy wanted to paint something in pink. Hurrah.

RudolphUcker Fri 16-Nov-12 20:14:32

What did MakeitALarge say, that there were 'back to the kitchen comments'? I saw one. As far as I can see, the reason things got 'nasty' were as a reaction to his posting style, and FWIW, he got off lightly imo.

I don't mind him being wrong, or even being tedious and over wordy. But surely we can call him on ranty, patronising and rude?

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 20:16:02

Clipped you mention that it saves time to look in the girls section if you want to buy a buggy for ds, but the WHOLE point is - why are buggies in the girls' section? My dh has done his fair share of buggy pushing/sling wearing.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 20:21:26

It is not all marketing. We TREAT children differently. We do it innately without even realising right from when they are born. You have to understand this, and take a step back to even see it. TPF up there exemplified it magnificently when he said that his dd's played girly things independently from him, whereas a boy was more likely to try and attract his interest. Of COURSE his dd's play with their girly toys independently - because they HAVE ALREADY LEARNT that daddy is not interested in such things.

RudolphUcker Fri 16-Nov-12 20:23:29

Have you read the Marianne Gr-somethinggerman book 'There's a good girl' Porto? It's fascinating. A journal of how baby girls are treated in subtly different ways from birth.

MrsDeVere Fri 16-Nov-12 20:26:29

'I just think it's incredibly foolish to say that society and marketing are what is making my three year old act the way she has ever since she was a baby. It ignores the fact that we share over 90% of our DNA with chimps. We're animals who have evolved to have higher brain functions, but at our core we are still animals and a lot of how and why we act is down to instinct and DNA.

Otherwise what you're basically saying is that the nature vs nurture debate is happily settled, and it's all TVs fault and nature plays very little part. I really, really disagree and I think nature plays a huge part in deciding who we are'.


It isn't even correct. It doesn't make any sense. For example I was not aware that pink was big right now with chimp laydeees hmm

And no one is saying (basically or otherwise) that we have settled the nature v nurture debate.

No one is saying it is 'all TV's fault'.

And 'incredibly foolish' - really?

I happen to think it is incredibly foolish to jump in, feet first, to a debate about gender stereotyping without reading posts properly and to address what you assume people are thinking/saying with a patronising and inaccurate diatribe.

It all pretty much went downhill from there with the 'you think this and you say that and you hate me because I am a man' bollocks.

Call me sexist, call me a hypocrite but please do at least try and back those accusations up with a little fact. My posting history is there for all to see.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 20:27:54

No - I shall look that up - thanks Rudolph.

RudolphUcker Fri 16-Nov-12 20:31:39
Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 20:34:35

Now my DH, whilst not perfect, is a pretty good hands on Dad. He changed nappies, did feeds, hoovers, clears up after himself. He will sit for hours and do jigsaws, build Lego, do crafts etc. He has much more patience than me. BUT he would never, ever play Barbie. He used to say - oh Dad doesn't do dollies, that's one for your mum. It sounds like nothing, quite unimportant - but is just another reinforcement that MEN aren't interested in stuff like that.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 20:42:16

I have to say, there is some spectacular point-missing going on here.

It's fine if your DD specifically likes dolls and your DS likes cars. That really is fine.

But by dividing toys up into 'girls' and 'boys', all children are being corralled into one or the other, regardless of their individual preferences. Being dictated to and directed. So much so, that all the pram-pushing and doll-playing-with that boys do at 3 or 4 is swept away, and they're positively mocked for it by other children by the time they're 7 or 8.

This is the point, and this is the problem.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 20:49:42

And the model is archaic - as men DO do housework, ironing, baby feeding, and women go to work as doctors and architects and chemists these days-- and the stereotypes don't exist in the way they did for OUR generation. As grimbletart succinctly put it, it is like they are trying turn back the clock.

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 20:52:26

No problem with anyone disagreeing with me, or anyone else, or calling someone a patronizing dickhead.

But making a comment like 'men do it all the time' is gender stereotyping.

Imho it is extremely hypocritical to do the exact thing you complaining about.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 20:55:32

I missed an important comma there - my point is that women in their 30s/40s today have benefited immensely from the strong feminist actions in the last 20/30/40 years. Today it is as if the battle is won, and we are seeing the backlash. Let's get the girls back to the kitchen, looking pretty, enough of the feminist stuff - we all know women have equal rights these days hmm

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 20:59:58

"And the model is archaic - as men DO do housework, ironing, baby feeding"

Well, in enlightened households they do. But there was a depressingly huge number of women on the Asda Christmas thread (I'm referring to it again, because all these things are intrinsically linked) who said the portrayal was reliaistic and what happens in their house... sad

Grimble is right - it's like we're going backwards. It seems so different for girls and young women now compared to how it was when I was their age (I'm 38).

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 21:06:22

Gender stereotyping would be "men are like xyz" or "all men do this".

That's not what was said. If you want me to clarify, what I mean is that certain men do this thing of coming along and explaining things that are either perfectly obvious or have nothing to do with what is being said.

Do women do it? No doubt. But then, I am far more interested in other women's opinions on women's issues. I don't really see how a man can come along and think he knows more about women's issues than a woman. In the same way, as a Scottish person, I am more interested in what other Scots have to say about Scottish independence.

You might think that's hypocritical. That's fine. Personally I just get bored of being told how very wrong I am about things that I know more about.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 21:07:11

Sad but true, Somerset. I still ORGANISE Xmas, even if we share the tasks. Ironically I found my copy of WifeWork under a pile of paperwork recently grin

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 21:09:44

Somerset I am a feminist. My partner is in many ways very enlightened. We no longer live together, mainly because he had no sense of sharing housework equally and was perfectly happy to let me do it. I couldn't believe it.

Likewise it is my mother's birthday this week and my brother and father have done nothing towards it. Despite the fact that I am doing a PGCE which involves about an 80-hour week, it is me who is making the cake, inviting people to dinner and making dinner. It just doesn't occur to them to offer. I have had to delegate tasks to my 60-year-old father, which just seems so wrong to me.

I think we have a bloody long way to go before men take an equal part in household chores.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 21:11:30

You COULD just not do it? I know, I know....

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Fri 16-Nov-12 21:12:51

That's the thing isn't it? You don't do it and people you love who can't do it miss out - the person whose birthday it is, the sick relative, the children who don't get a party.

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 21:13:33

My mum's birthday stuff? Not really. Can you imagine how disappointed she'd be that her ENTIRE family are shit? I am by no means a martyr, but what else can you do in that situation?

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 21:15:30

Exactly YoullScream . When it came to the housework and my partner, I just left all his stuff and tidied my own. But when I came home to the electricity being off for the 3rd time, I just couldn't cope any more. "YOU could just have done it," was his constant refrain.

Every time I go round to his now, he seems to be coping fine. As soon as some have some other mug to do shit for them, they'll just revert to slobs.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 21:16:21

If that was me, I think I would take her out, just me and say I want to spoil you - but I am too busy to chivvy the others I am afraid. They will not learn if you carry them.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 21:17:59

YOU are not responsible for their relationship with her.

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 21:19:05

I know Porto but I also know that's not what she wants. She wants to feel like everyone cares and that everyone made an effort. She has had a shit life. My dad is shit to her, my brother is a knob. She is a bit of a knob as well, quite often, but I feel bad for her. I don't normally do anything for the rest of my family but this one time, I will do it. They know I'm pissed off, but they STILL do nothing.

Anyway, way off topic.

SomersetONeil Fri 16-Nov-12 21:25:43

2 YO boy, with no pre-conceived ideas of the world - gravitates to whichever toys capture his imagination - cars, Lego, dolls, push-chairs, ribbons, planes.......

8 YO boy who is out in the world, going to school, away from the family influence, watching TV, seeing signs in toy shops saying 'girls' and 'boys' wink is affected and swayed by peers - is mocked for choosing toy/game X over toy/game Y...

Learns the lesson that 'girls' things are embarrassing, not worthy of him, silly, unimportant. It wasn't inate in him - we can all see that from observing the 2 YO. He's learnt it.

Boy turns into man. Doesn't pull his weight around the house, because tidying and cleaning is silly, unimportant, not worthy of him.

Can some people really not join the dots? Can some people really say these things are not important and worth thinking about? Is anyone on the "doesn't matter" side having a 'light-bulb' moment...?

MakeItALarge Fri 16-Nov-12 21:49:13

Somerset - I absolutely see your point.

Yes, of course that can happen. The original post referred to toy shopes, thats what I disagreed with.

In my home Im currently doing most the housework. Not because Im a woman but because Im on maternity leave. Im in the house more, so I do more in the house. When Im back ft it will be 50/50. Ive never tolerated being treated as unequal because of my gender as so have very different experiences of it than people such as op.

My ds is 8 and will wear pink, hasnt been bullied for it. He has raised the gender divide which I want him to do, then we can discuss equality and I can explain to him why that is important. Hopefully that way he will come to his own conclusion that the gender divide is bollocks.

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 21:51:25

see my ds3 has always loved pink and sparkly and fairies etc and until VERY recently would wear it out the house, even on non uniform days and no-one has specifically said anything to him, his school are very good at dealing with stuff like that and the kids all dress up and his teacher has said many of the boys dress up in the 'girly' princess dresses etc, they are JUST playing, as they shoudl be! but he HAS picked up on the marketing and the stereotypes and he 'feels' like he shouldnt do it, he still DOES play with it all at hoem and his friends join him in doing so when they come round, but he wouldnt wear stuff when out etc. he doesnt see it as inferior i dont think? more that its not what boys are meant to do, he thinks he is meant to like football (he doesnt!) and he is noticing that when girls have bday parties they only invite girls now, these are the same girls that come round for playdates etc and who he is good friends with and always went to their parties before, but now they only invite girls sad he for his bday (next month) wants to go see the new tinkerbell film and is inviting some girls and a boy to go see it. so i dont think he sees 'girly' things as silly and unimportant but he IS learnign that SOME people think its NOT ok for him to play with them and that makes me sad

my dp does stuff around the house and is very hands on with the kids and the housework and i expect my boys to be as well! i am NOT raising my boys to be men that exepct everything to be done for them! the rule in my house is we all make the mess so we ALL help clean it up. my eldest is a bloody good cook as wel and he enjoys it and chooses to do it on his own smile

but yes we do treat the sexes differently, i am making a point of telling my dd how big and strong she is, how clever she is etc, as well as how cute she is (she is blood adorable!) but yes i do have fun buying her nice clothes, after four boys its a novelty, equally tho everything that she wears is hard wearing and comfortable and i dont give a dam if she gets if dirty so she splashes in puddles and crawls int he mud, even in her boden dress! but it washes out, i am not going to stop her having fun for fear of ruining her clothes.

at the weekend my friend brought round some dolls clothes (in a hideous pink baby annabel wardrobe) ds2 (10) and ds3 (7) spent HOURS playing with dolls and dressing them and undressing them and organising all the clothes, we have always had dolls and a pushchair but not laods of clothes and accessories. dd sat and played with some toy dinosaurs which are her new favourite thing, she made them eat the my little ponies that were also brought round with the dolls clothes.

we have never done the girls/boys toys, they have just had a variety and if thye have mentioned thats for girls/boys they are always pulled up on it and i say NO, it seems to have sunk in wiht my elder three but ds4 is 4 and in reception and is very big on the pink for girls, i frequently tell him NO its not just for girls and he wore a pink elmo t-shirt today actually and didnt say anything about that, but he very def has the idea that pink is for girls and its not from me or his siblings, esp not from his pink silk dress wearing big brother!

there is NO need to market toys specifically to girls/boys they shoudl just be marketed to CHILDREN! its insideous and it does nad is affecting our children, even when we think it doesnt or it doesnt matter that much. and yes it is getting worse, i have def noticed the difference, 5 children eldest 13, youngest almost 2 and its far far worse now that it was when ds1 was a baby.

squoosh Fri 16-Nov-12 21:59:52

5madthings your home sounds like a great place to grow up!

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 22:02:52

aww thankyou squoosh i hope my kids grow up thinking so smile they seem to be turning out ok so far!

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 22:13:46

That it is exactly 5mad. Pink isn't bad, toy kitchens aren't bad. It is the systematic idea that these things are ONLY for girls is what is bad.

FromEsme Fri 16-Nov-12 22:20:13

And not only that they are only for girls, but that things for girls are inherently shit.

Some of my pupils were doing a mythical creatures crossword the other day. One of the answers was "unicorn". "EUGH," screeched some boys. "Unicorns are rubbish, they are for prom queens and GIRLS."

5madthings Fri 16-Nov-12 22:20:46

yes exactly and even if we as parents dont reinforce those stereotypes we are simply fighting the tide against the massive consumer based society we live in, the messages are out there, they are surrounded by it from birth and as much as we tell our kids toys are toys and pink is fine for boys etc, they STILL are affected by the advertising and the peer pressure etc, its bloody depressing actually sad

brainonastick Fri 16-Nov-12 22:46:40

My dds are 3 and 5. For at least 2 years they have divided up colours, toys, clothes and even items in nature into 'boyish' and 'girlish', and dismissed the boyish options as being suitable for them.

They are incredulous that I could like blue as a colour, as I am a girl and girls only like light colours, preferably pink and purple.

Dd1 - she is only 5 remember - was teased in school for having 'boy' shoes. They are just trainer type (with butterflies on ffs), rather than mary jane style - which is more practical for a reception year child heading into winter hmm?

Even tonight, we were choosing new duvet covers - dd1 was really excited about a 'space' themed one I told her about, then saw it was dark blue and black, and rejected it as being boyish.

I have tried from an early age to gently encourage them to think more widely, and reject the marketing they see all around them. But they are simply reflecting the divisions they see in the world, to them it is just a given fact that the world is divided in this way. It makes me sad, frustrated, angry. Hopefully as they grow older they can learn to think more independently, but they are starting life with an unfair disadvantage.

For every child (because boys are affected by this too) that manages to think against the stereotyping, there will be many more who are shoe-horned into gender 'appropriate' jobs and roles in relationships, and their lives will be the poorer for it. As will all of ours.

Portofino Fri 16-Nov-12 23:13:54

I work in ICT - in my company women are woefully under-represented. Something like 70/30. We employ a lot of off-shore contractors from India though and a much larger proportion of them are female. It seems still that UK/European girls are not doing the techy degrees.

SomersetONeil Sat 17-Nov-12 00:42:44

That's the thing - it doesn't matter how good the influence is at home (and in many homes, let's face it, it's actually appalling), as soon as your child is socialised, the home influence is a mere drop in an Alantic-sized ocean of school, peers, music, culture, films, TV; society, basically.

Just to clarify, the example I gave in my previous post wasn't to imply that this is what's going to happen to all boys/men (and likewise, all girls/women), but on a population, cultural, societal level, it is what happens.

Otherwise, how do you explain women doing the vast bulk of child-rearing, house-work, maternity parental-leave, career-dropping-out-of, etc, etc?

Again, it's perfectly fine if individual children veer off and prefer traditionally feminine and masculine toys. But it cannot be denied that it becomes problematic when whole sets of toys are defined as 'for boys' and 'for girls' because the message it starts to send out is part of a behemoth of messages being sent out at all stages of baby/toddler/child/adolescent/teen/adult development.

And we end up here, where you see thread after thread after thread of women complaining that her partner doesn't help in the home and the poisonous resentment that that causes to partnerships/marriages/families.

This 'small', seemingly insignificant stuff does matter. That people absolutely refuse to see it is incredible to me.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 02:29:20

I think you all have too much time on your hands. Who cares if boys and girls toys are divided, kept together, segregated according to toy type ... Whatever. I just do NOT understand what the problem is.

My kids are raised to our standards wrt the choices that we make for them and where appropriate the choices they make for themselves. They couldn't give a monkeys about the aisle placement of the things they want in toysrus - neither do I. We decide what we are getting and go out and purchase it. If DS wants a frilly pink tutu then we get it - who cares what aisle it's in???

I think more faith should be placed in our own ability to raise our children according to what we believe is right. There are so many more important things to worry about. Poverty, disease, violent crime, war. This is a classic first world issue if I have ever seen one.

SomersetONeil Sat 17-Nov-12 02:43:27

Yes, because my tiny little brain only has space to worry about exactly one thing.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 03:07:10

That's funny Somerset :-)

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 03:10:41

Sticking to my 1st world issue POV. I'll leave you to your unnecessary worries that little Johnny might be irrevocably damaged as a human being because you place far too much importance on gender stereotyping (the mere phrase gives it life).

RudolphUcker Sat 17-Nov-12 07:56:18

You're quite right, you just do NOT understand.

HazleNutt Sat 17-Nov-12 08:15:42

it's simplistic to declare that it doesn't matter and you buy whatever they want. That's exactly what people are taking about here - this kind of stuff affects what they want. Yes, you'll get a girl who might never ask for a dinosaurs and lego technics, because those are not meant for her, and you'll have no problems shopping in girls section - but is that really a good thing if her interest are limited to pink sparkles only?

Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 10:39:48

MrRected - has you ds ever asked for a frilly pink tutu? I am interested.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 11:13:20

There seem to be a lot of parents on here who are just desperate to put their son in a pink tutu. Which is weird since I've never seen any boy in a pink tutu beyond the age of about 3.

That people think that this stuff doesn't matter, that it's just random, that you can put whatever in whatever section of a toy shop and it'll have no impact just blows my mind.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 11:30:33

Oh the old 'people are dying in Syria, how can you bother yourselves with such a trivial matter like sexism'. In other words 'shut up ladies'.

Interesting that the male contribution to this thread has been so defensive and dismissive and so satisfied with the status quo.

5madthings Sat 17-Nov-12 11:46:37

fromesme my almost 8 year old has a purple sparkly tutu that he chose and wears, until recently he wore it out, over a pair of jeans, it looks rather funky, but he has realised it not 'acceptable' to some people sad i think thats a sad indictment of our society actually, its not ok that our children feel pressured like this.

and yes there are worse things in the world, there is always someone worse off, that doesnt mean we shouldnt try and change things that are a problem.

I have 4 girls and 1 boy . I tend to buy the things I think they will like rather than rely on the toy shop to tell me. So my older daughter liked cars I bought cars regardless of the fact the picture on the box was of boys. My three year old however loves all things pink and princess's so I get that. My ds has never expressed much of an interest in dolls, tutus etc but if he did I would imagine he would get one.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 11:59:55

What's your point 5dcs ? People seem to be making the same point over and over - "Oh I just buy my kids what they want".

So why are there still boy and girl sections? Why are all the kids I know so convinced on what is for boys and what is for girls? Why do men and women still end up having, in general, totally different interests and priorities?

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Sat 17-Nov-12 12:05:54

Yes, there seems to be a real resistance to making the leap from:

"I buy my children what they want, regardless of which aisle it is in"


asking whether the aisle it is in affects whether the child wants it.

And whilst there will be many examples of a girl who loves trucks or whatever, at a population level, there is a bias. So you must believe one of the following:

1. children are not influenced and the statistical skewing of toy preference is genetic;
2. children are not influenced and it is all about the parents and what they encourage;
3. a combination of 2 and 3


4. children are influenced - and you can believe that there is a genetic component, or that there isn't, and have views about the relative importance of influences like family and friends.

5madthings Sat 17-Nov-12 12:08:33

but not all people DO buy their kids what they want and we dont raise them in a bubble so whilst at a young age we can tell them its fine to like what they like and help nurture that they ARE exposed to advertising and societal influences pretty much from birth and even without anything being explicitly said to them they pick up on this.

so yes its bloody annoying that when i click on a website to buy toys they are seperated in girls/boys or that they advertising is geared one way or another, it reinforces the message that these are the things our children SHOULD like and that they should stick to gender stereotypes, i think thats pretty crap actually.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:13:30

I am 100% female .... So there goes your sexism theory.

Still standing by my original opinion that this is a FIRST WORLD problem.

I guarantee you the kids living on the breadline in 3rd world countries (I was raised in one) couldn't give a shit about the blue aisle or the pink aisle.

Fwiw - My DS1 told anybody who would listen - for about two years - that when he grew up he wanted to be a girl. He wore dresses, would always insist on butterfly's and fairies when a face painter was around. I had no problem with this at all.

God MN is a vipers nest at times. If one has a differing opinion, you are either branded a troll or a man!!! You might want to examine your own views on sexism before throwing stones!

Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 12:18:31

Um - I think the man thing came from the Mr in your name.....

Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 12:20:12

And practically EVERYTHING on MN is a first world problem. I hate my MIL - get a fucking grip - there are people DYING out there, dontcha know....MN might as well shut down. It is frustrating that mothers of daughters think this is so unimportant.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 12:21:15

I hate this "first world problem" bullshit that has recently replaced "starving kids in Africa".

No shit, there are other huge problems in the world. Seeing as there's really fuck all I can do about the Syrian crisis, Somalia or the Gaza strip, then maybe I can at least try to educate the kids I teach to be decent human beings who don't judge on gender.

Or should I just tell them to do what they want, because it's not important.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 12:22:56

So you never ever complain about anything other than war and poverty?

Give me fucking strength.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 12:24:06

'first world problem' is what people say when they have no rational argument. It's a refuge for the Too Lazy to Think brigade.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:24:52

Say it out loud MissDirected.....

MummyPigsFatTummy Sat 17-Nov-12 12:25:41

But why is whether it is a first world problem of any relevance? Are we not allowed to talk about other things until we have solved all of those? You might want to let those on Style and Beauty or TV addicts the new rule, if so.

Personally, I think it is an iussue. Some children are definitely affected by this sort of gender stereotyping - not all I'm sure. But it isn't necessary to sell toys. Why not just group them into types? Dolls/Construction/Art and Crafts/ Science etc. It's not that hard and just as easy to navigate to find things.

Boots catalogue this Christmas is a big offender. Even the Duplo was in Boys' Toys and everything in the Girls section was pink/sparkly or both.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:33:03

Feel free to dismiss my opinion. You are totally within your rights to do so. I feel strongly about this and took the time to carefully articulate why.

Just because I think this particular issue is a non-issue - in the sense that it is not important to me doesn't give you the right to call me ignorant or call me a sexist man?!!!

Sometimes it pays to just have a think about a different opinion. If we all gave gender stereotyping less life and just got on with our lives maybe, just maybe our kids would follow suit.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 12:35:07

I'll call you a sexist woman then. Better?

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:36:42

I do complain about lots of inane crap. We all do - I just choose to keep it all in perspective. After all, it's NOT really very important.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 12:40:54

I find it is very important, actually. I think it is incredibly limiting for both sexes and actively harmful for women.

Who the hell gives gender stereotyping ANY airtime? Every time I mention it people look at me blankly.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 12:41:37

And I'm glad you keep your problems in perspective. What makes you think we don't?

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:42:53

Squoosh - I think I may just complain right now about somethiing really inane. Your shitty posts.

If you'd bothered to read any of my posts - you might have seen what I was trying to get at and that I am notin the least sexist.

You are very low on tolerance for a different opinion. Are you always this bombastic?

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 12:43:32

People never talk about geneder sterotyping, they're too busy conforming like sheep to give it a second thought.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:44:53

336 posts - mostly outraged at the the aisles in the local toy store = air time in my opinion.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 12:44:58

Complaining about internet postings is so very First World. Don't you know there are people starving in the world?

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:45:38

Sheep I am NOT. This thread is living proof of that.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 12:53:01

Be happy Sqoosh. It's Christmas. No hard feelings.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 13:00:36

Well you've joined in Mr so you're wasting your time as well. I haven't seen anything in your postings to suggest you're not a sheep, since you seem to just be doing the same old dismissive act that everyone else does before resorting to "first world problems".

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 13:06:47

Ok Esme. Ok.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 13:10:45

I wasn't calling you a sheep, I was responding to Esme's comment 'Who the hell gives gender stereotyping ANY airtime? Every time I mention it people look at me blankly'

Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 14:21:19

MrRectum, you didn't argue anything though - you said you let your children choose for themselves and that this was a non-issue. The argument is about what influences their choices, and that this IS indeed a big issue as gender stereotyping from a young ages influences the activities and aspirations of said children as they grow up.

MrsDeVere Sat 17-Nov-12 14:34:29


Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 14:57:35

Oh shit - autocorrect fail blush - Sorry!

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 20:02:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

MrsDeVere Sat 17-Nov-12 20:03:59

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SuePurblybiltbyElves Sat 17-Nov-12 20:04:02

Nice. That how you usually admit gracious defeat in an argument, 'Mr'Rected?
Right classy, that.

MrRected Sat 17-Nov-12 20:12:19

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

SuePurblybiltbyElves Sat 17-Nov-12 20:13:53

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

FromEsme Sat 17-Nov-12 20:14:41

Jeez Louise. Someone's had a nerve touched.

I'm not English, by the way. And I don't have kids. So it'd be a little weird for me to expect anyone to do the job of raising them.

It is possible to have a discussion about sociological issues without pitching a shit fit, yanno. Or getting personal.

squoosh Sat 17-Nov-12 20:18:05

Nope, I'm not English. Quite unprincessy too by all reports.

MrsDeVere Sat 17-Nov-12 20:21:35

I can only see one spoilt little princess on this thread.

The one name calling and swearing like a docker.

Because people do not agree with her.

That would be you.

I am not sure why you think women discussing gender stereotyping makes them entitled. Unless you mean entitled to have a discussion about gender stereotyping with being called a that case you are spot on.

Seriously, you sound like you need to have a lie down somewhere quiet.

How noble of you to report your own post. So you get to call someone a bitch for disagreeing with you, tell them to fuck off, and then have it disappear so no-one can see just how unpleasant you are.

Do you usually do this when people don't agree with you? Are you usually this controlling?

How worrying.

GhostShip Sat 17-Nov-12 20:41:35
Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 20:47:51

Well I WAS sorry and embarrassed! I have changed my mind though now. hmm

SuePurblybiltbyElves Sat 17-Nov-12 21:20:04

Ah, now MNHQ, I was deleted? I said 'your posts make you sound xyz', I thought that was OK?

carovioletfizz Sat 17-Nov-12 21:20:58

This is such a depressing thread. Women really are their own worst enemies.It's supposed to be a discussion about how we can encourage our daughters and sons to escape gender stereotypes, and as usual has descended into a name calling abusive cat fight. Horrible.

Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 21:21:44

Well she was talking about ME - I was happy to let the post stand.

MrsDeVere Sat 17-Nov-12 21:23:24

Yep. Nice ploy. Say something vile then get it deleted. Then everyone who has dared to pull you up gets deleted too, making it look like a 'cat fight'

which it wasn't.

YoullScreamAboutItOneDay Sat 17-Nov-12 21:23:40

Sue - I think you were probably deleted because you repeated what she said in her deleted post, not because of the conclusions you drew?

GretaGip Sat 17-Nov-12 21:25:23

SueP didn;t repeat.

These deletions are rubbish.

Portofino Sat 17-Nov-12 21:28:07

Considering MrRected thought this was a non issue, she seems mighty upset about it.