To not buy a poppy

(493 Posts)
Hippymum89 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:38:30

Why is it more important to remember the death of a soldier who died fighting for the country (or so he believed) than the death of every other person who has died?
What about all the others who have died helping others? Were their lives less important? Or the little old lady who died in hospital at the age of 97, she didn't kill any Germans, or rescue people. She lived her life, but doesn't that count?
I think poppys glorify war and therefore murder, so I will not be buying one.

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 10:39:52

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LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 10:40:23

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Purple2012 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:40:47

what squeaky said

While I disagree with you YANBU to feel as you do and to not buy a poppy if that's how you feel. YABU in the extreme to try to start a fight on here and be smug and holier than thou about it.

Softlysoftly Fri 09-Nov-12 10:41:33

Ohohohoh 8mnths ish on here and my first biscuit.

It's like losing my virginity all over again.

I feel dirty sad

MrsFionaCharming Fri 09-Nov-12 10:41:44

I was trying to think of an intelligent and reasoned response. But I think Squeaky just about summed it up.

Purple2012 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:41:44

and find out what the money from sales of the poppies goes to before making stupid comments.

DawnOfTheDee Fri 09-Nov-12 10:42:38

Remembering soldiers does not make anyone else's death less important. They are two completely separate issues. I think most people don't have too much trouble separating the two. Because I care about issue A, doesn't mean I can't care about issue B.

I don't find that they glorify war at all and the money raised from them goes to supporting some very deserving people.

Hippymum89 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:42:45

But you haven't answered my questions?!!!
Yes they were important and it is a shame they died, but no more or less than anyone else IMO
there's no need to swear. I'm looking for actual answers

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 10:43:08

I was going to give a more detailed response, but its clear that the OP wouldnt be capable of understanding it.

WhenShallWeThreeKingsMeetAgain Fri 09-Nov-12 10:43:11

Be grateful you have the FREEDOM they fought for as to buy or not buy a poppy.

You are obviously very young, and very uneducated/stupid if your post is really your opinion.

DawnOfTheDee Fri 09-Nov-12 10:43:47

I think you'll find I did answer your question.

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Hippymum89 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:44:33

The money goes to supporting veterans and their families, but why do those families deserve more support than those who did not fight?

OK - don't buy one then.

err that's it really.........

pictish Fri 09-Nov-12 10:46:56

Reading with interest as I think the OP makes a valid point.
I'm not going to be a dick about it, and think the poppy appeal is great thing, but I too wonder who else may be deserving of the same recognition.

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Hippymum89 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:47:20

I just wanted to see why you all think it's so important to buy one, and your reasons for it. That is all.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 10:47:27

Umm, because they wouldn't have needed support had they not lost the head of their household, fighting to keep British people safe...

You really are stupid aren't you?

ClippedPhoenix Fri 09-Nov-12 10:47:35

They are a symbol of respect for the men and women who have bravely fought for our country's (and others) freedom.

My DS is in the Sea Cadets and due to march to lay wreaths on Sunday, it is a truly proud and moving time.

ThickCut Fri 09-Nov-12 10:48:01

Most of the service people that died during the wars were sent and didn't have a choice. I doubt if all of them agreed with war too but what choice did they or their poor families have. Yabu

sue52 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:48:14

"For your tommorrow we gave our today."
That's why. Other than that; what squeaky said too.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 10:48:23

"You are obviously very young, and very uneducated/stupid if your post is really your opinion."

can i just point out that being uneducated and stupid is not exclusive to young people wink

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 10:48:46

The money goes to supporting veterans and their families, but why do those families deserve more support than those who did not fight?

Because those who did not fight will never, ever be able to pay the debt they owe to those who did.

Hippymum89 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:48:52

OK, Bye then sad

Wah Wah Wah Wah Wah Wah Wah.

OK, you've got the fight you were looking for. For a pacifist thats really letting your side down.

EduCated Fri 09-Nov-12 10:49:35

Yes, because by not buying a poppy you're doing sooooo much to help/show respect for everybody else.

weeblueberry Fri 09-Nov-12 10:49:39

If you believe in honouring people who have died to secure our freedom (which is why they're different than others who have died) but don't support war, there are white poppies you can buy to show your support of this. They're not easy to come across but are considered to show as much respect as a red poppy.

twitchypalm Fri 09-Nov-12 10:49:49

There familes deserve more support as they are the ones living with the mental and physical scras of having relatives that fought for freedom of this country.

My dp was a welsh guard in the falklands conflict and lost most of his friends when the Sir galahad was hit. He has recently being diagnosed with ptsd 30 yerars after we have had to live with his problems of what he saw and expereianced there aswell as teh tours of northern Ireland that he done. People who havent had to live with it just wont understand.

I take it op your dcs enjoy frieworks my dp still can not cope with firework nosies as it causes flas backs like wise ballons popping. Have you ever had to explain to your dcs that they can't have ballons as if one pops there father goes into a panic. People like you make me sick and if it wasnt for there soldiers you wouldnt be able so spout the drivle you are.

missymoomoomee Fri 09-Nov-12 10:50:23

Hippymum89 you are currently enjoying the freedom that those soldiers fought and died for, so be a dear and take your fucking idiotic views somewhere else.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 10:50:33

"because they wouldn't have needed support had they not lost the head of their household, fighting to keep British people safe..."

erm, not all military deaths are 'heads of households'. hmm

DialsMavis Fri 09-Nov-12 10:50:39

I am about as anti war (especially regarding most of the conflicts we involve ourselves in) as you can get. I also hold some very strong views about the armed forces that it would be insensitive and distasteful for me to post here & I would get lynched. But, I still have every respect for WW2 veterans and the compassion to do something to help recent veterans in any way I can.

DesperatelySeekingSedatives Fri 09-Nov-12 10:50:41

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Feminine Fri 09-Nov-12 10:51:35

You are so talking out of your back passage op

Please do some more research.

DuelingFanjo Fri 09-Nov-12 10:53:03

YANBU because buying one isn't compulsory though some people sem to think it is. Not sure why you need to start a thread about it though.

it's not like you deliberately DON'T buy something to make a point about all the other people you could be helping. Why not just donate something to the lifeboats or your local hospital or take some nappies up to the neo natal unit, or volunteer to do some meals on wheels or something?

shesariver Fri 09-Nov-12 10:54:00

Who says its an all or nothing thing? Plenty of support and fundraising for other charities are out there so that knocks your arguement right away.

DialsMavis Fri 09-Nov-12 10:54:26

Does the £ for the white Poppy's go to the same cause though?

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 10:55:52

do you know what i think it's pretty off for people to be calling OP stupid. and as for why every year? well because some people just dont know why it is important because it has never been explained to them. what's wrong with explaining your reasoning without calling someone stupid and telling them to fuck off. i get that it's an emotional subject (and yes i wear a poppy) but try looking at it from the point of view of the person who doesn't have any experience of death due to war. they may never have had any reason til now to find out why it is so important.

blueraincoat Fri 09-Nov-12 10:56:03

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BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 10:56:04

Why do they deserve it more than others who have died???

They did not die of natural causes, they died to give us the world we live in today, freedom of speech, not to be clones of each other. In my case they gave life, my grandfather was a Polish POW.

We give to Marie Currie for people with cancer, BHF, MS society - it's not the only charity in Britain hmm

Oh, and what squeaky said incase the above doesn't penetrate.

ByTheWay1 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:56:18

The reason we buy poppies is for remembrance- to remember not just the solidiers of the first world war, but the horrors that they went through FOR US - for our freedom... and it reminds us that there are still soldiers out there giving up their lives, their limbs to protect others, to maintain the freedoms of peoples all over the world it reminds us that though we would not do it - others do daily...

The British Legion spends £1 MILLION A WEEK helping armed forces dependants, veterans and those bereaved by conflict..... buying a simple poppy HELPS them and just shows that you will not forget the sacrifices made by others so that you can live the life you do today.

WorraLiberty Fri 09-Nov-12 10:57:04

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BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 10:57:15

"Why not just donate something to the lifeboats or your local hospital or take some nappies up to the neo natal unit, or volunteer to do some meals on wheels or something? " why assume Op doesn't already?

blueraincoat Fri 09-Nov-12 10:57:55

Research is freely available for this. It isn't like the OP doesn't have internet access...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Poppy+appeal

Diana2000 Fri 09-Nov-12 10:58:19

I am about as anti war (especially regarding most of the conflicts we involve ourselves in) as you can get. I also hold some very strong views about the armed forces that it would be insensitive and distasteful for me to post here & I would get lynched. But, I still have every respect for WW2 veterans and the compassion to do something to help recent veterans in any way I can.

Yep, same here. Although there is a part of me that feels slightly uneasy about the way Poppy Day is now becoming more about the veterans of current and recent wars (ie Afghanistan and Iraq) than remembering the conscripted soldiers of the two world wars.

I can't articulate it very well but it does feel as though wearing a poppy now is like you're showing support for the war in Afghanistan confused

Dawndonna Fri 09-Nov-12 10:58:47

Poppies do not glorify war. It's an act of rememberance. Do grow up, there's a dear.

Gigondas Fri 09-Nov-12 10:58:57

White poppies go to peace pledge union here - red ones go to British legion I think.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 10:59:23

because she's asking a specific question "why are military deaths more important than others" she want's opinions not a wikipedia entry on wht the poppy is for.

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 10:59:52

I disagree Booy. At the age of 7 or 8 I knew what poppies represented, my 6 year old granddaughter is aware of what the poppy means, so how someone old enough to post on an internet forum for adults is incapable of understanding the significance of the poppy would say to me that they are either trying to start a fight, be a shit stirrer, or is a bit thick.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:00:44

Boooyhoo, Most of the married men that died in WW1 and WW2 were the head of the household. I wasn't talking about recent military deaths. The OP had asked about the families of veterans and why they needed support.

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 11:01:18

It is not (as I think you know full well) about the relative importance of those who fought or fight against those who haven't.

The commemoration is about recognising sacrifice. If we dropped it, a lot of ordinary, especially working class and young people who have done very brave and good things for the country would drop out of public view altogether, which I think would be a bad thing.

I actually think that whether you agree those military conflicts or engagements should have been entered into is beside the point. In a democracy, there is a kind of covenant between those who serve and those who govern: the former submit to democratic control by parliament (so go and fight whatever they as individuals think about what they are being sent to do) and the latter is supposed never to misuse that commitment and sacrifice in the cause of oppression. We as the public register appreciation of what those who have done military service endure in the defence of the rest of us.

The fact that we are pants about recognising other kinds of service and sacrifice isn't, to my mind, a reason to stop celebrating this one. I suppose the honours list is supposed to do this, but it isn't very public. It would be nice if there were an equivalent of the Festival of Remembrance for civilians who've made particular contributions to public life, and a specific day to honour them. If there were a flower for that, I'd happily wear it, but not to the exclusion of the poppy.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:01:20

hippymum I agree with you.

I don't wear a poppy as though I am grateful for the freedom I have and respect the lives of the fallen, i don't want to be associated with the mob on here (and in RL) who simply can't get their head around the fact that someone might disagree with them.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:01:48

YY Squeakytoy.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:02:40

squeaky you are lucky enough to have been taught about it. i certainly wasn't and i'm sure tehre are posters here who weren't either. not all posters were born and raised in the UK.

Chandon Fri 09-Nov-12 11:02:48

I don' t wear a poppy.

I get quite a bit of stick for it too from DH and inlaws.

But I will not be forced or bullied into wearing one. I resent the pressure.

I am happy to give a donation ( and do), but I just feel strongly about not wearing any logos, emblems, flags, symbols, ribbons etc.

I detest the notion that I should PROVE that I care by wearing one. I prefer my thoughts on this to be private and nothing to do with anyone else.

Gigondas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:03:16

But Diana2000 as time goes on and unfortunately we have more wars, it is inevitable (and right) that more recent conflicts are remembered . I don't think it takes away from remembering ww1 or ww2 - my grandfather died nearly 20 years ago but I always remember and wear poppy for him and his comrades.

And op- yabu as others have said. Your argument could apply to all sorts of charities - does the recent "stand up for cancer" campaign mean that don't care about other illnesses? It's not an all or nothing concept when you choose to support remember or support one cause.

KenLeeeeeee Fri 09-Nov-12 11:03:20

Remembering those who died in war doesn't mean you're excluding those who died tragically under other circumstances. It's not all or nothing, ffs. The first couple of weeks of November are the time set aside to remember that war is an awful thing where lots of lives are lost. I think that is a very valuable thing to keep in mind.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:04:25

not all posters were born and raised in the UK

OP was though Booyhoo. I have a hard time believing that she really didn't know - she was just looking for a row, and she got one.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:04:29

" I wasn't talking about recent military deaths. The OP had asked about the families of veterans and why they needed support. "

there are war veterans of more recent wars than WW1 and WW2. if you meant those wars you should have clarified. the poppy isn't used just to remember those people.

festereagain Fri 09-Nov-12 11:05:34

what ethelb said. And what chandon said.

WelshMaenad Fri 09-Nov-12 11:06:13

Well, go and give some money to that charity that honours and supports everyone who has ever been ill or died if anything, ever, then.

Oh. Wait.

Every cause has its focus. In supporting a cancer event you do not 'disrespect' or demonstrate indifference towards those who die of heart disease. You just may show support for them at a different time. Rememberance Sunday is the time we show support for our dead and wounded soldiers. I am a pacifist, but I am profoundly grateful that the sacrifices of these soldiers gave me the liberty to be one. Buy a poppy, or don't. But please don't cast aspersions in the motives if those who choose to acknowledge the enormity of what these soldiers did for us.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:06:31

well i was born and raised in the UK and have only i the past couple of years began to understand what it was all about. does that make me a moron, ignorant fuckwit, stupid, uneducated?

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:06:35

Dont be obtuse Booyhoo - the OP specifically said about the "Old lady dying at 97 who didn't kill any Germans"

Maybe she should have clarified.

GhostShip Fri 09-Nov-12 11:08:19

They fought for our freedom you imbecile.

My great great great grandad died in the battle of Somme. I go to the monument with his name on to show my great respect for the sacrifice they made.

Not buying a poppy for the reasons you've reported is disgustingly ignorant.

NoTeaForMe Fri 09-Nov-12 11:09:01

The poppies aren't about glorifying war, they are about remembering the people who died for their country. They fought so that everyone else and Everyone for generations to come can have freedom and live happily and in peace (in theory!) If they hadn't done what they did we would not be the country we are today.

I think the old lady dying at 97 is a ridiculous comparison! Everyone dies at some point...she died in her sleep after living a full happy life (hypothetically speaking of course) she didn't die heroically fighting for her country!

Don't wear one if you don't want, make a stand against remembering and thanking all the young men who died so that you could live. You do that...but it makes you a twat!

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:09:18

she also said

"What about all the others who have died helping others? Were their lives less important? "

the others weren't just in the first or second world wars.

XBenedict Fri 09-Nov-12 11:10:24

Oh dear the old argument about poppies glorifying war sad

Of course you don't need to buy a poppy or wear one. It's a free country.........!

I don't wear a poppy everyday at this time of year. I start with one but DD usually eats it/pulls it apart etc. I have a small enamel one I wear on my uniform but out and about I have rarely got one and I have NEVER been challenged about it.

GhostShip Fri 09-Nov-12 11:12:12

My nan was a little old lady who died at 83

She made bombs in the war.

So that little old lady we're talking about...

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:13:06

well i was born and raised in the UK and have only i the past couple of years began to understand what it was all about. does that make me a moron, ignorant fuckwit, stupid, uneducated?

I don't like the wording but unless you are 6 then yes.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:13:40

^she also said
What about all the others who have died helping others? Were their lives less important^

'Others' meaning not in the military.

Why are you arguing this? OP asked a stupid question, quite offensively and people have replied in kind. What does it matter to you?

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:15:49

why wiley? do you know everything about every topic? are you educated about every single thing? did you know all these facts from the moment you left school or did you learn some things as you got older?

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:16:08

I don't think OP was offensive. I think she has a valid opinion. Slightly simplistic, but valid.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:17:24

I think poppys glorify war and therefore murder

That is offensive.

NoTeaForMe Fri 09-Nov-12 11:18:02

BooyHoo are you missing the point on purpose? Yes, lots of people die from saving someone. (There's actually a wall full of plaques in London thanking people who have done just this, don't think it's added to anymore, but it's a lovely wall-featured in the film 'Closer')

A man who saved a person from drowning only to drown themselves is, of course, a hero. Especially to people who knew him or to the family of the person that would have died without him. But if you can't see how this is different to the hundreds of thousands of young men who lost their lives fighting to protect their whole country for generations and generations to come then there's no help for you!

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 11:18:42

I honestly cant understand how anyone born and raised in the UK gets to adult age without knowing about the meaning of wearing a poppy. Seriously, I cant.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 11:18:53

The British Legion paid for the adaptions my Dad needed to stay in his home in his final year. While the help was very gratefully received, the cost to him was the loss of his best brightest years. Sent to Burma at just 17. Years of fighting in the jungle, before being shot and coping with years of PTSD.

My Dad hated war. He hated his medals and refused to wear them. He always wore his poppy with pride and made sure we did the same. He made us go to the remembrance service every year although he never went himself because it was too traumatic for him.

WorraLiberty Fri 09-Nov-12 11:18:55

squeaky you are lucky enough to have been taught about it. i certainly wasn't and i'm sure tehre are posters here who weren't either. not all posters were born and raised in the UK

No but we've all got an internet connection and the ability to Google, haven't we?

That would have answered every single ignorant, emotive question in the opening post.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:18:57

offensive to what? poppies?

Or is it offensive to state that war is tantamount to murder? Why? it's true.

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:20:53

i'm not arguing Lteve. i just dont like that someone not knowing something automatically means they deserve to be sworn at and called names. there really was no need for some of the agression shown on this thread. if you dont agree with her tell her why. if she is wrong, tell her why. direct her to links where she can find an answer. if you dont want to do that then fine dont respond to her. swearing and calling her names is hardly likely to bring her round to your way of thinking.

anyway i see OP has run off and isn't going to stay and defend herself (cant blame her really she isn't going to get a chance) and i'm certainly not going to take her place in being your (plural) verbal punchbag for today. so i'll go to.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:21:28

Or is it offensive to state that war is tantamount to murder? Why? it's true.

So whilst Hitler started to gas women,men and children the rest of the world should have stood by? confused.

Lovely.

Feminine Fri 09-Nov-12 11:21:30

Well, it actually worries me that op thought as she does/did <<optimistic>>

She must have done basic history at secondary level at least

Children wonder too don't they? mine have lived abroad for the last 7 yrs, they didn't know anything about the poppies ...I have explained to them.

Actually the school did too.

mmmerangue Fri 09-Nov-12 11:22:05

TBH OP I agree with almost all of your sentiments...

I still buy a poppy, like I put money in the lifeboats box or the Marie Curie box at the various times of year they come to prominence. Apart from that I try to keep to local charity.

You do sound like you are pitching for a fight with your OP tone.

I could be callous and say why they are worth it even though they 'glorify war and murder' as you put it... Those soldiers were MURDERED so that you are NOT. They saved your life. If zee Germans had won, sure as hell they would have found a reason to 'cleanse' the world of you, or your parents. So you would not be here - therefore I wear the poppy.

Wars are still happening now, and we should continue to keep that at the front of our mind, consider those who are still dying needlessly and hope for an eventual end to war, everywhere - theres' another reason I wear the poppy.

This is the poem I share on Nov 11th. Yes I 'thought of it' myself.

Remember Remember, this 11th of November
Good Men who died for a cause
And ask yourself what happened to
"The War To End All Wars."

XBenedict Fri 09-Nov-12 11:22:12

"My Dad hated war. He hated his medals and refused to wear them"

My grandad was the same. He never claimed a single medal, my mum got them after he died because we are still to this day so proud of him and his comrades.

To be honest I don't buy a poppy because I really think that we shouldn't need charity to support war veterans. The state (which in the case of those who fought in WWII pretty insisted that men fought for them less it needed them elsewhere) should bloody well provide for those who put their lives on the line for it. And if that means everyone has to pay more in tax (including me), so be it. I just don't think that war veterans should have to rely on charity for proper care and rehabilitation (and to support their families and the families of those who currently serve). The fact that there needs to be a charity to support this reflects dreadfully on our government and society in general I think.

Although OP, I am also a pacifist and I think it's a bit silly to say that poppies glorify war. Remembrance Sunday is about those who died in war, and so it is a recognition of the utter awfulness of war. That's exactly the opposite of saying war is a good thing.

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 11:22:47

I'm sure my mothers 97 year old neighbour that died peacefully last year dosent begrudge people supporting soldiers this way especially having lived through the horror of world wars.

Think what sort of fucked up world you might be writing your idiotic and inane posts from if it wasn't for the bravery of these people.

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 11:22:55

boohoy did you go to school? I can't imagine anyone educated in the UK could not have learned about Rememberance Sunday, perhaps you were off school every November?

Apologies if you were HE and have never had access to a TV/radio/newspaper/library sad

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:23:19

notea

"A man who saved a person from drowning only to drown themselves is, of course, a hero. Especially to people who knew him or to the family of the person that would have died without him. But if you can't see how this is different to the hundreds of thousands of young men who lost their lives fighting to protect their whole country for generations and generations to come then there's no help for you! "

are you confusing me with the OP? i have said i wear a poppy and i know why i wear it. i did not ask why the military deaths were more important. OP did.

BeyondGoesOffWithABigBang Fri 09-Nov-12 11:23:33

Not getting into whether I agree or wear a poppy or whatever, just want to point out that even people on this thread cant agree whether it is for fighters in ww1/2 (lots of whom were conscripted) or all veterans of all wars (no conscription) or even those fighting now. Which surely makes a difference in whether someone believes in the cause or not?

BooyhooRemembering Fri 09-Nov-12 11:27:01

yes i went to school in a very catholic nationalist area in n.ireland. does that make it any easier to understand why i was never taught about poppies by either my parents or school? is it really so hard to see where other people may be coming from? your upbringing is not the same as everyone else's.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:27:18

Hitler didn't start the first world war. And yes, it would have been best if everyone had just stayed at home for WW1. Might have even prevented the rise of Hitler.

Murder is murder. It might be justified in some circumstances. It is still murder. If you are comfortable with rememberance day, why are you so uncomfortable with that face?

reindeerjumper Fri 09-Nov-12 11:28:19

Because my grandfather died in active service and the RBL supported my grandma and her sons, one who wasn't even born.
Most men didn't have the choice as to whether to fight. The least we can do is remember their sacrifice.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:28:25

Hitler didn't start the first world war

Nobody said he did confused

I work with veterans. I wish those of you who dig your heels in about poppies and remembrance could have spoken to one of them for one minute.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:29:04

yes you did: So whilst Hitler started to gas women,men and children the rest of the world should have stood by? .

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 11:30:52

Murder is murder. It might be justified in some circumstances. It is still murder. If you are comfortable with rememberance day, why are you so uncomfortable with that face?

Because it's remember the victims. Why is that so hard to grasp?

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:31:01

yes you did: So whilst Hitler started to gas women,men and children the rest of the world should have stood by?

at no point did i say this was world war 1 - you have quoted exactly what i said?

CookingFunt Fri 09-Nov-12 11:31:13

None of my family buy or wear the poppy as I have familial links to Bloody Sunday. That does not make me ignorant or a Moran.

I'm not sure that it matters whether those who are being remembered we're conscripted or volunteered. I think the important thing is that we remember that war is always dreadful and that people always die because of it. It's important to remember the costs of war, so that countries don't go into it without proper consideration and awareness of what it actually means.

DuelingFanjo Fri 09-Nov-12 11:32:27

"why are military deaths more important than others"

let's face it. They are not. Each death has it's own importance to different people. My father dying of a heart attack was important to me but not to anyone else. A friend's husband dying in Afghanistan was important to her family but not to me. However I can give her the same sympathy and empathy she gave me when my father died. I don't have to buy a poppy to show that empathy and care. I can buy a poppy if I want to, I can also show my support to heart attack victims if I want to - as can my friend but I am not going to demad she does.

No one would demand the OP buys a poppy and I can't understand why the OP would think anyone would.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:32:31

I don't necc think that people should have just stood by with Hitler. But well done for invoking Godwins law.

I do think that if everyone had stayed at home for ww1 then ww2 might not have happened.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:33:57

"Because it's remember the victims." many of whom killed other people before they themselves were killed. I don't see why it is respectful to glaze over the truth of war. Forgetting that they also murdered is not 'remembering' is it?

mmmerangue Fri 09-Nov-12 11:34:09

I wear it for people like this

For my grandpa, who was an Air Force Engineer in Burma.

for people like this girl, fighting another fight entirely

For every man and woman who served their country but cannot afford to turn their heating on this winter... what a disgrace!

Starting to sound a bit Daily Mail now hmm

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 11:35:17

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

eatingrottenapples Fri 09-Nov-12 11:35:27

I buy a poppy because they chose to put their lives on the line for us. Simple. Also, I buy ribbons etc for cancer charities because no one deserves to suffer. If you don't like it don't buy it just stop offending people with your ignorance!

mmmerangue Fri 09-Nov-12 11:36:26

Quite, Fanjo

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:36:43

But well done for invoking Godwins law

Its hardly surprising that a discussion about Poppies will lead to the name Hitler being banded about.

XBenedict Fri 09-Nov-12 11:37:45

Not sure Godwin's law is relevant when the subject is as it is!

Fakebook Fri 09-Nov-12 11:38:52

Op you remind me of a work colleague who once proclaimed that wearing poppies was a sham. That did not go down well in the company. Neither will this.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 11:39:04

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

<off to point out the Godwins law was invoked on this Schindler List thread too grin >

SusanneLinder Fri 09-Nov-12 11:39:58

ethelb why don't you actually READ what Wiley said.

*Or is it offensive to state that war is tantamount to murder? Why? it's true.

So whilst Hitler started to gas women,men and children the rest of the world should have stood by? .

Lovely.*

WW1 was never mentioned. Only incredibly stupid people would think Hitler started WW1 (although he did fight in it )

For the record, I am about as anti-war as they come, but am very grateful that people gave their lives to defend the tyranny of Hitler.

And even being anti-war, I donate to the soldiers/airmen/naval staff, as it is governments that create war-not soldiers.

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 11:40:17

"I buy a poppy because they chose to put their lives on the line for us"

I see it slightly differently, in that during WW1 and WW2, they had NO choice. But I am not disagreeing with you or saying you are wrong, if that makes sense. smile

ZZZenAgain Fri 09-Nov-12 11:40:48

you don't have to buy or wear a poppy if you are uncomfortable with it but I don't understand why you are not understanding about and respectful of other people's choice to do so. Remembrance is not about the glorification of killing which is, of course you are right in this, the terrible reality of war - war brings killings. There is no clean war, soldiers are trained to kill, they are made to kill, they are killed in wartime for refusing to do it and choosing to desert. There is nothing wrong IMO with having a strong abhorrence of war and killing. However, I don't feel like you about this. I do feel respect for these people and I do want them to be treated with respect for what they did/had to do in the war(s). I am grateful that my parents weren't born into a Nazi dominated Britain and also that I was not born into a world like that. In the case of WWI, I feel a real sadness about the waste of young lives in the misery of the trenches for what was IMO a totally pointless and avoidable war.

Were conscripted or volunteered. Bloody autocorrect! (You'd think someone at apple would have thought, well both were and we're are common words, so maybe we should not have autocorrect intervene there. Same with ill and I'll).

I think the reason that it may be (and only may be) more important to remember military deaths is not because those lives were more valuable, but because of how and why they were lost. The fact that those lives were lost in war is worth reflecting on because, in an ideal world, there should be no need for war and no one should have to die in war. We should remember so that we can try to live in a better world. Doesn't every sane person in the world want to live in a world where there is no need for war and, therefore, no one dies because of war? At least, that's what I take from the whole thing.

(I don't buy a poppy, but it doesn't mean I don't think about what the whole thing means)

Purple2012 Fri 09-Nov-12 11:40:55

Poppies were first used for this many many years ago when people had no choice but to enlist and many lost their lives fighting for people like the op to have the freedom they have today.

Not all war is justified but thousands of young men lost their lives fighting for their country and their countries freedom. I think that deserves a little respect.

ByTheWay1 Fri 09-Nov-12 11:41:12

The poppy is symbolic of the massive sacrifices of WW1 (In Flanders Fields the poppies blow, Between the crosses row on row.) they were first made in the US and then our first poppy appeal over here was in 1921 - so the ORIGINAL poppy appeal was for the Great war alone...

but the symbolism has moved on and is used to represent the remembrance of the sacrifice that any service personnel have made for their country. How we may feel - or indeed the service personnel feel - about going off to modern day war - our government is asking them to do it to maintain the freedoms of peoples of other nations - as they (initially) did in WW1..

the poppy shows that we will remember them.

NessunDorma Fri 09-Nov-12 11:41:25

Arf at invoking Godwins law.

I wear my poppy in remembrance of the men who went over the top of those godawful trenches. Some of whom had no choice in being there and knew they would almost definitely die.

spamm Fri 09-Nov-12 11:43:35

The fact that you have a choice and the opportunity to have an opinion on this comes from the fact that young men, and now women as well, were and are prepared to got and put their lives on the line every day to fight for that freedom. You can dislike war - who doesn't? - but it does not mean you cannot respect them for that sacrifice.

eatingrottenapples Fri 09-Nov-12 11:43:43

Actually a lot of them did choose to but the ones that didn't makes me want to buy a poppy even more. They did their duty but paid for it horrendously. Their courage and strength must be applauded. Btw I am very anti war.

Yorkpud Fri 09-Nov-12 11:44:05

YABU - I hope you realise this now.

NessunDorma Fri 09-Nov-12 11:44:32

Did anyone see the documentary called 'Wounded' othe BBC a couple of years ago? It really brought it home to me that whether you agree with the wars in Iraq/Afghan, these men and women still need support.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 11:45:08

YABU - they fought for our country and often died for it. Men are still dying.

Do you know how poorly paid servicemen are now? Do you know the kit they are given isn't up to standard and they have to buy their own? Do you know that there is a ridiculously high amount of ex servicemen who are homeless,in prison,suffering from mental health problems because of what they have seen?

If you don't want to buy one,then don't. But you should be aware of how much of a dick you sound.

I don't think it matters whether those who died were aggressors or defenders anyway (and I'm not at all sure that any war can be categories in such simple terms). The important thing is that millions of people have died in war, and that is always going to be worth remembering and reflecting on.

anklebitersmum Fri 09-Nov-12 11:46:29

<mutters angrily and marches to put the kettle on>

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 11:47:01

I never get upset by threads on MN but this really has got under my skin. Surely our freedom is one thing we can all be grateful for and agree on?

I don't give a frig if the OP buys or wears a poppy but can't get my head around the fact that some posters cannot see why a war veteran's family deserve our support sad

Lest we forget - it appears we already are.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:47:45

It could be argued we were agressors in WW1. And definalty in Iraq etc. So is it ok to accept those soldiers were murderers?

Or do you just call anything you are uncomfortable with 'offensive'.

NessunDorma Fri 09-Nov-12 11:49:33

Jesus H Christ.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:49:45

@bree another reason I don't buy poppies is that I am so appalled by the way veterans and the army are treated, that I don't agree with treating them as chairity cases. It is something that the state should pay for.

Wealthy charities reduce pressure on the Government to behave appropriately imo.

soverylucky Fri 09-Nov-12 11:52:04

I am against war but I wear a poppy. I feel that I like to show respect for the men and boys who have died in war. Regardless of whether it was right or wrong to go to war, ignoring who was to blame etc it is about rememberance of someones brother, father, son dying in conflict. In recent times we have also had women dying in war who need to be remembered too.

Just because you wear a poppy does not mean that you are pro war!

GhostShip Fri 09-Nov-12 11:52:30

The likes of ethelb need to give their heads a wobble.

Alisvolatpropiis (I hope I got that right): the fact that current servicemen and women's kit is not up to standard reflects very poorly on the MoD and our government more generally. If the state sends men and women out to fight for it, it should bloody well provide for them properly. Similarly, it should provide properly for them afterwards; it is beyond appalling that so many leave the armed forces so damaged and with such inadequate support.

This really has nothing to do with whether one supports a given war (or any war). It is just basic decency. I doesn't really matter that people now choose to join the armed forces; the state is not keeping up its end of the bargain, and that is dreadful.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 11:54:01

sorry Ghostship? want to actually clarify what you mean?

" ignoring who was to blame " why the hell would you ignore who was to blame shock

Do you honestly think that what patronisingly muttering 'lest we forget'? Jeez.

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 11:54:14

ethel a friend lost her 3 year old DD to neuroblastoma, her relapse could have been treated in the states at a cost of £250k. The government do not pay for this treatment, I don't agree with this but it didn't stop me doing all I could to help raise the money needed.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 11:56:09

I remember all soldiers that fought to make the world a better place. Whether that is the veterans of WWI and II, the soldiers fighting terrorism in NI, the soldiers who went to Iraq and deposed a genocidal manic or the soldiers currently serving in Afghanistan, trying to stop the Taliban and Sharia Law.

I support the families of those soldiers who may have suffered hardships due to their soldiers' sacrifice.

Whether the Government should pay for them or not is irrelevant - they don't. The RBL is a bloody fabulous organisation that helps ALL military, ex military, spouses and dependants - no matter their service, creed, colour, religion et al. They do NOT put conditions on their support, they just give it. Oh and the Poppy production itself is completed by able bodied and disabled ex servicemen and their families. People who couldn't get jobs elsewhere - Remploy (something else the Government has now fucked).

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:56:25

It is something that the state should pay for.

As a taxpayer it would make me no difference if the state did pay.

I would still donate every year.

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 11:56:47

Government should do a lot more for veterans, true. But I think it is important that the citizens who benefit from their military service should directly participate in supporting veterans. Not sure I'd like a situation where it was all dealt with by benefits and we stood back.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 11:57:02

ethelb

What you are saying is offensive.

There is no way you would spout all that shit about them being "murderers" to a serviceman or a member of their family.

You can bleat on about how "they shouldn't be charity cases,they state should pay for it" as much as you like. the fact of the matter is the state does not and has not ever paid out. And by your logic there should be no cancer charities,because we have an NHS and the state should pay for it.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 11:58:35

There is no way you would spout all that shit about them being "murderers" to a serviceman or a member of their family.

I agree Alisvolatpropiis. Very offensive. Not "uncomfortable" as ethelb puts it - simply offensive.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 11:59:25

ArbitraryUsername I really could have picked an easier username in hindsight lol!

I agree with you.

Bree, I think the case of a sick child needing expensive treatment is quite different and it's not helpful to compare them. The child's illness was not directly causes by actions the state asked her to undertake. A soldier's death or a veteran's injury/poor mental health is directly caused by the actions the state asked (or required) him or her to undertake. Therefore, the state has an obligation to properly support that veteran and/or their family.

Unfortunately illness is inevitable (and I mean no disrespect by that); war is not, and should not, be.

anklebitersmum Fri 09-Nov-12 12:01:06

thing is, she is spouting all that shit about them being murderers to a serviceman's family angry

JustinBoobie Fri 09-Nov-12 12:01:55

I'm so glad you started this OP, in the tone that you did and then simply fucked off...

confused

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 12:02:01

Sorry arbitary I was trying to make the point that Ethel doesn't buy a poppy as she thinks the government should pay to support military personnel and their families. I also think they should pay for a lot of things but they don't - it doesn't mean I prove this point by not donating to charity.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:02:14

I don't really think there should be cancer charities actually no.

Plus I am fairly open with friends in the military or with family in the military about my feelings. I don't think they should be shielded from that. And nor do they.

XBenedict Fri 09-Nov-12 12:02:31

"There is no way you would spout all that shit about them being "murderers" to a serviceman or a member of their family."

She is!

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 12:02:47

They probably find you amusing.

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 12:03:41

X post! X post!

Bollocks you call servicemen murders to their families. Big fat hairy bollocks.

We do have some control over what the state does though. We are all implicated in the fact that it does not meet its obligations to those who are or have been in the armed forces. It doesn't reflect we'll on our society at all, and we should be ashamed of it.

I don't think it should just be dealt with through 'benefits'. It's not at all the same thing as unemployment or disability in the general population. It should be about the ongoing support needs of those who serve in the armed forces and those who have served in them. That should be part of the MoD budget and proper provision should be made.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 12:04:42

Plus I am fairly open with friends in the military or with family in the military about my feelings. I don't think they should be shielded from that. And nor do they

I just don't believe that you really have any friends in the military with views like that. I just don't.

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 12:05:52

FFS then I actually give up. Lets leave everyone to their own devices, I'm sure the government will bail than out hmm

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:07:02

I grew up in Winchester. I do.

I also had a boyf who was going to join the RAF (his family worked for them too) and decided against it as I felt he couldn't justify takign part on modern warfare, as it was always going to be disporportionate force.

Its not the case that everyone in the military hasn't considered the different view points. People on here are far more narrow than in rl imo.

InNeedOfBrandy Fri 09-Nov-12 12:07:29

I'm not even going to get started on the fuckwitted views you are sharing on here. OP if it wasn't for the WW1 and 2 we wouldn't live in the free society we have today. There wouldn't be a internet forum to post on as the computer was invented through the war and you wouldn't have the right to express your views and thoughts.

I don't think your a very nice person so again what squeaky said, and then fuck off some more..

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 12:08:09

I do not think that the lives of service personnel are more worthy of remberence.

But buying and wearing a poppy does not stop you tempering others who have died.
And by this token we do not object to cancer research as it only affects those who have cancer.

We do not object to Ground Zero because it only honours those who died there.

It is a nonsensical argument.

Those who forget are doomed to repeat etc etc

So if you are as anti war as you profess you should be weaving your clothes out of sodding poppies.

Don't buy one if you don't want to but or fucks sake don't buy it for the right reasons

And can we have a new law that is envoked everytime someone smugly envokes Goodwins law inappropriately or at all

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 12:08:58

anklebitersmum I felt sure there would be some servicemen's family on here but didn't want to presume. It's easy to say ridiculous things like she is over the Internet. Give some people a keyboard and they become a warrior. Really sorry you have to read this kind of stuff sad.

ethelb - you are actually quite an unpleasant person aren't you? So what you're saying is 1) all soldiers are murderers 2) they don't deserve charitable status as veterans 3) you don't believe the veterans and those lost in all wars since WWI deserve to be remembered for their sacrifices.

Why exactly do you think cancer charities shouldn't exist?

Also. You don't have to agree with every war or indeed any war to support soldiers. I don't agree with the Iraq war. Do you honestly believe every single servicemen does? Honestly? Do you understand how being in the services works? You pledge to defend Queen and Country no matter what, you don't pledge to defend Queen and Country "as long as you personally agee with the command given".

How dense can you be?!

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 12:10:11

Its not the case that everyone in the military hasn't considered the different view points. People on here are far more narrow than in rl imo.

I don't believe for a second they would entertain the shit that you are spouting on here about them being "murderers" for a second.

Sallyingforth Fri 09-Nov-12 12:10:14

I have just come across this thread, and I'm glad you Hippymum have already been robustly answered.
But I still need to add my own FUCK OFF to you and to any other miserable selfish misguided bastard who might agree with you.

SusanneLinder Fri 09-Nov-12 12:10:30

I don't really think there should be cancer charities actually no.

Thanks for that! 30 years ago, the cancer my DH had would have killed him.Thanks to the work of Cancer Research and similar charities, he is alive.

Yunno you have managed to insult so many people on this thread. You are either a shit stirring troll, or you are one of the most offensive people I have ever come across on Mumsnet.I really hope you are the former.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:10:39

2) they don't deserve charitable status as veterans

I didn't say that. I said that I don't think they should have to rely on charities. the support should be there anyway.

Same with cancer chairites. Its disgusting that mcmillan nurses are mainly charity funded.

And to be clear, we (as a population) should insist that the state provides properly to veterans and their families. We live in a democracy; it's not outwith our control.

Ethel: I really don't think it's at all useful to use words like 'murderer' in this context. It's not at all the correct word. And, if those who fight for us are 'murderers', the we all are. We're all implicated in the killing aspect of war undertaking on our behalf.

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 12:12:18

ethleb thanks for your support but if we had waited for the government to do its duty my oh would be pissing in a bucket and washing in the sink.

So thank fuck for those that do give to the RBL.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:12:27

@arbitrary I agree. That's why so many people argue for war to 'not be in my name' as we are all implicated in the violence.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 12:15:14

ethelb no they shouldn't have to,but that is what happens.

Are you trying to backtrack after calling them all murderers?

Also...explain why there should be no cancer charities...go on. Might as well offend everybody as this point. In for a penny,in for a pound and all that.

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 12:16:25

Just seen your cancer comment.

You really resent my little family don't you?

Damn us and our lax ethics, taking money from the RBL and cancer charities instead of standing our ground and doing without toileting and washing facilities and caving in and accepting whatever we could get for DD

Call myself a socialist? I am a fucking disgrace

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:17:48

There should be no cancer charities as it is something the state should fund. We have some of the worst funding in the developed world for research and I think ther should be more pressure on the government to readdress its priorities.

No, I'm not backtracking on the murder comment. Killing people is killing people. Sometimes it is more justified than other times but it is murder. I'm shocked that so many of you are shocked by this simple statement. As I initially said, it wasn't to offend. Just a valid opinion as expressed by the op.

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 12:18:08

"I don't really think there should be cancer charities actually no"

you can have a fuck off as well...

My dad died of cancer, without the help of two very amazing charities, Macmillan and Marie Curie, his last few months and those of mum who was caring for him would have been even more horrendous than they were.

Words almost fail me at the utter ignorance and twattish comments on this thread.

CookingFunt Fri 09-Nov-12 12:19:38

Yes there are those that knowingly took innocent lives during war. They are a disservice to their country and should not be included in the poppy wearing,but they are.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:20:11

squeaky to - or would political parties have had to make real election promises and be held to account? Just a thought.

I agree that it's awful that nursing care for those affected by cancer requires charity, but I don't agree at all that there should be no cancer charities. Cancer charities undertake a wide range of tasks and I don't necessarily have a problem with many of them being charitably funded (not actual nursing care that the patient requires though; that should come from our taxes via the NHS).

Cancer is very different to war, though. Cancer, and other illnesses aren't caused by something the state asks it's sufferers to do (usually, and where they are, the state should compensate people and look after them). War deaths, injuries and the mental health problems that are directly caused by fighting in wars only arise because the state requires people to be soldiers and fight on it's (our) behalf. So I think the obligations on the state (and us through our taxes) are different. It is a scandal that this is left up to people's discretion.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 12:21:18

MrsDeVere, your DH and, I firmly believe, your DD paid the ultimate price, and were badly let down, by the Army and the Government. I echo your "thank fuck for the RBL" thanks

Oh and Ethelb - I am a soldier yes, but a murderer? No.
THAT is why I find you, and the OP offensive.

Pinkspottyegg Fri 09-Nov-12 12:21:19

Because I cannot think of any other job where there is a higher danger of being killed or (even worse) having to kill someone and living with that. We wear a poppy to remember them and the huge sacrifice they made.
Lest we forget

domesticdiva Fri 09-Nov-12 12:21:43

I don't really think there should be cancer charities actually no.

Seriously REALLY!!!!!????? Wow you really have a warped way of looking at things ethleb!!!

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 12:21:59

ethelB with regard to charities...is it a crime that people,normal people,choose to set up charities such as cancer charities? The state does provide treatment of course. People are choosing to donate money to charities because that extra money provides more help,research and support to those in need. The same goes for all other charities,for any other illness or cause (such as animal charities)

How can you possibly think that is wrong?

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 12:22:51

ethel where do you think the state could free up this money from? I'd be interested in your ideas.

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 12:23:03

To be honest, the fact that servicemen and women have had to go out and kill other people is part of why we bear witness through the Festival of Remembrance. It is horrific. It's not just about the injured or dead. People go through terrible things in conflict, and it is important to me to recognise that.

anklebitersmum Fri 09-Nov-12 12:23:45

I've certainly seen and heard worse than ethelb in RL. I put the 'likes' of some people in the same catagory as the moron who spat at my hubby and called him a baby killer as we made our way home from a funeral.

Raised some interesting questions from my children as we got back to the car sad

Still, as long as they're exercising their right to 'free' speech in their 'free' country, eh?

WhenShallWeThreeKingsMeetAgain Fri 09-Nov-12 12:24:25

So, ethelb, you would be a pacifist and stand by while someone murdered your children would you?

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:25:26

@bree well they could stop having expensive wars for a start.

mmmerangue Fri 09-Nov-12 12:28:07

It's Ok, ethel will pay all the tax that it would take to make the money that charities like the RBL and MacMillan donate to people in need.

She has magnetised the Euromillions balls and will be winning every week for the next 10 years, I beleive.

hmm

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:28:48

I don't think you understand the notion of tax.

soverylucky Fri 09-Nov-12 12:30:00

well they could stop having expensive wars for a start.

Now I totally agree with you but then that is sort of my point for wearing a poppy. To remember that millions of people have died because of war. If we forget their deaths we are never going to move forward. We are doomed to carry on making the same mistakes.

Remembrance is different to glorifying.

mmmerangue Fri 09-Nov-12 12:31:00

That my tax goes to the government, and onwards to the NHS, for instance, who then spread it among needy cancer patients.

Since you don't believe in charity because the government should pay for that, despite the fact the government has made massive cutbacks in nearly all areas including the NHS.

So where would the money be coming from exactly? confused

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 12:31:33

I dont think you understand a lot of anything really ethel.

I just hope that if you are unfortunate enough to have your life affected by cancer, either directly or indirectly, you would stand by your convictions and not take any help from any charities. hmm

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:33:13

I didn't say that people shouldn't use charities. I just don't think there should be a need for them. Unfortuanly there are. I give to shelter.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 12:33:57

The thing about all these people who are calling servicemen murderers is that they must be disrespecting the memory some of their own family. If not in recent time then certainly from WWI and WWII,simply because of conscription.

There have been a lot of servicemen in my family. Though none of died in service since WWI. That doesn't mean they didn't see terrible things. The one who died in WWI was a 14 year old boy. He died at Ypes.

I have nothing but the upmost respect for service men,all of them. Those who have lost their lives,the veterans of all ages,those who continue to agree to protect Queen and Country. We may all think the Iraq War is wrong (and that will include plenty of servicemen) but one day,a war will start and all you nay sayers will all be damn grateful for these men and women. As every normal person is now.

socharlotte Fri 09-Nov-12 12:35:27

Dumkopf !

lizziebach Fri 09-Nov-12 12:35:27

I'm anti war, I marched in protest against the war in Iraq, but I always wear a poppy and always go to a Remembrance Day parade. If you don't want to then that's your choice but if any of my friends didn't want to I would and have think a lot less of you. Poppies don't glorify war, the point is to remember the sacrifice and hope it doesn't happen again. I don't believe in the figting going on at the moment but I repect every single one of those soldiers for being able to do something I would frankly be too scared to do. And once a year I show my gratitude to soldiers past and present.
If you don't believe in war then protest, fight the politicians and get up petitions and do something about it. But don't call soldiers murderers and condemn them for doing something they believe in. Yes they kill people but in a kill or be killed situation how many of you would be willing to put your hands up and accept death without a fight. If your family was there being threatened how many of you would allow them to die without a fight? I hope anyone who is saying poppies are wrong is blue eyed and blonde haired with no jewish or gypsy ancestory. I'm not

MrsDeVere: I am angry that the state hasn't provided adequately for your OH and your family. And I think it's something that should be addressed. I can see why charities that provide this kind of care exist because it is just unthinkable that people would be unsupported in this way. But I think this does let the state off the hook. We should be very angry that the state so easily disregards its obligations in this way, and this should most definitely change.

(And, for what it's worth, I do also feel for your OH and your family (and others in similar situations). I understand that living with disability and coping with loss are incredibly difficult, and my anger at the state does not prevent me from recognising this. I wish I could put this better but I'm struggling to find the right words.)

squeakytoy Fri 09-Nov-12 12:36:03

Thats good that you support Shelter, Ethel. There are a lot of homeless people who are ex servicemen. smile

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 12:36:21

I don't think even the expensive wars could cover the cost of what your suggesting.

BreeVanDerTramp Fri 09-Nov-12 12:37:16

Squeaky got in their first re shelter smile

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:39:12

I know they help a lot of ex servicemen. Who suffer because of government policy. However, I prefer their campaigning angle rather than just paying for things. I like they way they put a lot of pressure on gov.

Ethel - you don't get it. If you mean that in an ideal world, the Govt would fund research and palliative care for all medical conditions, and therefore charities would not be required, well, no one would disagree with that. But it's not an ideal world and no nation on earth could afford that, even if no one ever fought again. Your choice of words was, at best, unfortunate, at worst, damned offensive.

Whereas your 'murderers' was damned offensive and nothing else.

onetiredmummy Fri 09-Nov-12 12:44:24

Cancer charities failed my mother, she had ovarian cancer for 7 years but when it spread to her brain & became terminal she called McMillan as was desperate for some support. She was told that she wouldn't be able to see a cancer nurse as they were not enough to go around, she put the phone down & sobbed her heart out. Does it make me think cancer charities shouldn't exist? Of course not, it makes me think they need more money. The NHS does not have the funds to run itself, let alone take on other roles. Which is why its important to make charity contributions including the poppy appeal.

I don't glorify war but I recognise that in many times of life, sometimes things cannot be resolved with words alone. If a peace cannot be made through words then other decisive actions have to be taken. I know Hitler is brought up in these threads but he's a prime example of why armies need to exist.

honeytea Fri 09-Nov-12 12:47:30

I don't wear a poppy, well I wear a white one I was brought up wearing a white poppy and going to peace marches, my great grandparents were conscientious objectors in the 1st and 2nd world wars and I am proud of them.

I think the victims of war need supporting but I believe that the money should go to the people disfigured, displaced and orphaned in the countries we invade. The citizens of Afghanistan and Iraq didn't choose to have bombs dropped on their villages but the service men and women did choose to go into a dangerous situation and fight as their job. Yes their families will be worse off without them if they die but they will be a huge amount better off than the families left homeless and displaced in the invaded countries.

musicalendorphins Fri 09-Nov-12 12:48:25

Don't wear a poppy if you don't want to.
People died so you could have your freedom. You may not even be here today if not for them. Talk about ungrateful. sad

musicalendorphins Fri 09-Nov-12 12:49:16

I forgot to answer your question.
YWBVU not to wear a poppy.

CookingFunt Fri 09-Nov-12 12:49:18

lb you would honestly think less of me?

SoupDragon Fri 09-Nov-12 12:56:49

No, I'm not backtracking on the murder comment. Killing people is killing people. Sometimes it is more justified than other times but it is murder

No it isn't. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. So, going out and stabbing someone in the street not fighting a war in defence of freedom.

LDNmummy Fri 09-Nov-12 12:57:39

OK, I am going to say something controversial here. I suspect my controversial opinions have made me already quite unpopular on MN so I will say firstly that I am not trying to be unpleasant, just honest in how I feel.

Every year when I start being asked if I would like to buy a poppy, I sometimes do and I sometimes don't. My DH wears one every year and last year bought one for each of us, though I didn't wear it.

I actually become quite angry about this every year.

As some regular MN's may know, I am of mixed African descent. My family members who contributed to the war effort have all been forgotten about and have never received any significant or direct recognition or compensation from this government or country for their service to the war effort in either of the great wars.

My family not only contributed by serving in both great wars as soldiers and servicemen, but also as farmers and labourers for the war effort. They have received nothing for this.

I come from an ex British colony and I am incensed over this every year.

I think it is honourable to support those who fought for our 'freedom', but my anger makes me unable to wholeheartedly support what I feel is an unfair distribution of recognition and compensation.

If my feelings and knowledge on this are wrong, please educate me on the matter. I would like to not feel this way about this issue.

pigletmania Fri 09-Nov-12 12:57:40

Well your entitled to your opinion, don't buy ne who cares!

I think, possibly naively, that the OP was genuine.

I also think some posters' responses are disproportionate to the OP.

For every soldier who kills in battle there is a family somewhere who thinks of him/her as little more than a murderer, no?

I'm not British but nor am I anti-poppy. I just think people are entitled to their views without being abused for them!

People have their reasons for wearing a poppy, and people have their reasons for not wearing one. That doesn't make someone a fuckwit, moron or anything else does it?

If this was just a shit-stirring thread though, I think that's grossly disrespectful.

lizziebach Fri 09-Nov-12 12:59:32

Cf sorry I should have worded that better. I wouldn't think less of some random person walking down the street without a poppy. I would think less if I was having these conversations in RL with some of the people on here. I would think less of you if you didn't wear a poppy because you thought all soldiers were murderers and charities shouldn't exsist etc. However if you had a valid reason for not wearing one then no I wouldn't think less of you. I just think some of the reasons that have been put forward here are ill thought out and in some cases offensive.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 12:59:37

soupdragon Iraq was an illegal war, no?

@ldnmummy that's another reason I feel funny about wearing a poppy

pigletmania Fri 09-Nov-12 13:00:46

I buy one because the soldiers gave their lives so that we can live in a relatively civil democratic society.

Anyone who thinks that a poppy is a sign of supporting war, or that it makes any kind of political statement, is an utter fool.

It's a charitable symbol, not a political one.

I'm anti-war, but I wear a poppy (well I actually sell them, I'm a member of the RBL), because I think it's important to remember the brave men and women who have given their lives for MY freedom.

When you go home,
Tell them of us and say,
For your tomorrow,
We gave our today.

And also it's worth noting, that many soldiers during WWI and WWII were CALLED UP to do their duty for their country, it isn't like it is now where every member of the forces has chosen to be there.

I'm not British but nor am I anti-poppy

To clarify the above: I'm Irish so I have my reasons for not wearing one. My dh is English and I have no problem with him wanting to wear one.

weegiemum Fri 09-Nov-12 13:03:04

My Granpa was a ww2 RAF veteran.
He never talked about it, he never wore his medals. He flew over Europe as a tail-gunner and served in north Africa too.

He never wore a poppy. He didn't want to remember, and he didn't think that veterans should be looked after by charity.

I know poppies aren't supposed to glorify war, but for some people, they do. I saw a child this week wearing a poppy sweatshirt. In our local shopping centre there's a stall selling poppy merchandise. That is wrong - it shouldn't be a merchandising opportunity, that sickens me.

I remember, but I don't buy or wear a poppy. Partly because of Granpa. Partly because of the pressure to do so. It seems to be the one non-negotiable charity! We give, but choose to give to international development charities. Those are the ones that might have a chance of preventing future wars.

Also - and this is personal to my family - my fil is German. His sister was born in the Dresden firebombing (a war crime committed by the British). His father spent time in a Russian pow camp. His mother was forced - literally at gunpoint - to join the Hitler Youth. I'm not sure the poppy appeal remembers the conscripted Germans who suffered, especially in ww2.

onetiredmummy Fri 09-Nov-12 13:04:42

I'd not heard of a white poppy before this thread, I just buy the red one every year. If I understand, its the conscientious objector poppy then. Still honouring the dead but unsupportive of war in general.

CookingFunt Fri 09-Nov-12 13:06:17

Oh ok LB smile
As a matter of interest no one in my company has ever asked why I don't wear one. I do like the idea of a white one.

SusanneLinder Fri 09-Nov-12 13:07:12

yes Ethel we DO understand how tax works!hmm Unfortunately I do not have a say in how the government spends my taxes (apart from every few years at the ballot box-and even then....). However by supporting charities, I DO have a say in how my money is spent, because I can choose or not choose to support them.

So what would YOU have done about the threat of Hitler while HE was murdering innocent men, women and children? Would you have said "well thats okay" then? Please explain what the alternative would have been, cos I believe Mr Chamberlain did actually try and appease the war.

StElmo Fri 09-Nov-12 13:11:20

So you wouldn't wear a pink ribbon to support breast cancer? Or a daffodil to support Marie Curie? Or take part in a McCmillan coffee morning? Because, one charity shouldn't get more support than another? You have a very warped view of Remembrance Day IMO.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 13:11:51

@Weegie My dad was in WW2. He was a very specialist radio operator. He was in the seige of Malta and then in Burma in the last days. He always wore the White Poppy. So do I, so do my kids and so does my husband (since he met my dad and talked to him about it).

SoupDragon Fri 09-Nov-12 13:16:02

soupdragon Iraq was an illegal war, no?

If it was, that doesn't make the soldiers murderers.

SoupDragon Fri 09-Nov-12 13:16:38

And it also makes no difference to the other wars remembered.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 13:20:05

Iraq was an illegal war, no?

No.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 13:24:04

I also didn't know about the White Poppy until just looked (have never seen one - do the RBL sell them?) - came out in 1933 and appeared due to the words "Haig Fund" being imprinted in the centre of the red poppies.

The red poppies no longer have this imprinted on them.

I think it's a shame that something being sold for a worthwhile charity is associated so closely with political ideology and opinions when it appears it wasn't intended to be a symbol of that.

Especially if people in need are being deprived of donations due to misunderstanding of this.

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 13:27:08

LDN, I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't get angry, I just remind people of the contribution of Empire and Commonwealth whenever I get the chance. It is a pity it took 50 years to build a Commonwealth War Memorial, and it is a pity that, when they did it, lots of countries like Nepal are listed but then just 'Africa', no separate countries.

I know the names have changed, but I wish they could have found some way to commemorate the astonishing contribution of certain countries or units, like the Nigeria Regiment, or the East and West African rifles. People in the UK know a lot about the Burma campaign for example, but not the fact that African regiments did a lot of the hardest jungle fighting, or that India raised the largest volunteer Army in history in the 1st World War (in total 1 million Indian men served overseas in that conflict, 74,000 died). Still, t'was ever thus. Empires are like that.

I find one antidote is the Imperial War Museum-it's good on the Commonwealth soldiers. It's also good on Korea, that terrible and largely forgotten war.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 13:27:15

thankyou @walter

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 13:28:35

@wiley I used to wear a white poppy but after the reactions to white poppies on MN last year I stopped.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 13:28:36

From the other poppy thread started this week:

The white poppy has been around for over 80 years. It was started in 1926 by the No More War Movement to stand in opposition to the (then) Haig Fund's poppy, and was later out into production by the Co-operative Women's Guild in 1933.

But the current organisation states its interest to "abolish the military and all that goes with it".

The RBL have nothing to do with White Poppies and receive no funding from them. If you wear a white poppy, please at least wear a red one with it. Or don't wear it on 11 November - let Remembrance Day be untainted by politics, please.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 13:30:25

How does the British Army fighting in Afghanistan keep the British public safe? Safe from what?

socharlotte Fri 09-Nov-12 13:31:05

I kind of get what you are saying.Being maimed and killed is an acknowledged occupational hazard in the armed forces.
But the soldiers of WW1 and 2 were conscripts and I buy a poppy in memory of them mostly

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 13:33:24

The strategy behind Afghanistan and other campaigns stems from the Nato policy that Nato will seek to meet threats at long distance, before they can menace Europe, and avoid member countries suffering the damage that results from having to fight a war on their own soil. Get them before they come over here to get us, to over-simplify rather.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 13:33:41

Thanks LtEveDallas i would never wear a white poppy purely because i do not see the red poppy as anything political (or anything other than what it is - a charitable symbol of remembrance) so have no need to.

where do the funds for the white poppy go to?

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 13:35:14

I think white poppies are fine for Quakers and other confirmed pacifists acting out of the deepest convictions. (I've know a few of those: deeply impressive, thoughtful and brave people).

They are much more annoying when one suspects they are been worn as a bit of jejeune posturing by twits.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 13:35:48

No, LtEveDallas I will wear my White Poppy with pride as my war hero father did, thanks. I do not choose to wear a Red Poppy. I support the stance of the Peace Pledge Union.

If you want remembrance untainted by militarism, then the White Poppy is what you should be wearing. It's the Red Poppy that introduces politics and militarism into the issue of remembrance. Not the White Poppy.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 13:38:11

I don't think the taliban invading england is a real threat.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 13:39:14

Sorry but why does the red poppy introduce politics? Or is that just down to individuals opinion?

Mordion where do the funds from white poppies go to? Am genuinely interested to know.

DuelingFanjo Fri 09-Nov-12 13:40:46

this guy might disagree with you Virginia wink

LDNmummy Fri 09-Nov-12 13:41:45

Eldritch you have a great way of looking at it. I honestly wish it didn't anger me so much.

I also love the Imperial War Museum for the way in which they present a great insight into what the commonwealth countries contributed to the war effort.

I am against war but feel that all who have fought when they felt our freedoms were on the line, should be remembered equally and with admiration.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 13:41:53

No, it's the Red Poppy that is a symbol of Remembrance and nothing else.

The Red poppy and the purchase of, supports those ex soldiers and their families that the Government have abandoned.

The White Poppy and the purchase of, gives no support to anyone

Hijacking Remembrance Day is disrespectful, and nothing but a gimmick.

CarpeBibendum Fri 09-Nov-12 13:41:54

Lest we forget.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 13:45:03

Wiley, from their website - the money goes to themselves:

Where does the money go?

"Through the white poppy our aim is primarily to raise issues. We distribute the white poppies each year to challenge the view that war and preparations for war are necessary or inevitable. Any money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the white poppies goes to fund our education work, some of which can be seen on our main website"

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 13:45:14

Ah yes LtEveDallas just looked at the website and was quite disappointed that there is no clear statement of what funds collected are for -

"Any money raised over and above the cost of producing, publicising and distributing the white poppies goes to fund our education work"

"it's the Red Poppy that is a symbol of Remembrance and nothing else"
^ agreed

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 13:45:28

I don't think the taliban invading england is a real threat

Well to be fair, I don't think I am necessarily doing justice to a quite complicated military doctrine, Virginia (which I don't endorse, by the way, just saying that's the apparent justification).

CarpeBibendum Fri 09-Nov-12 13:46:21

You may not understand OP but ignorance like yours makes my blood boil.

As a mother, I would do anything to protect my child but I can't imagine being asked to go to war and potentially give my life for her freedom. These people did that for their families. The very least we can do is remember that sacrifice.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 13:46:23

x post!

Thanks LtEveDallas

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 13:53:27

The government and the NHS DID provide for my dd' s excellent and expensive care.
They also paid someway to providing some stuff for oh

But without the charities we would have done without both necessities and luxuries (extras for DD)

Charities do not take over, they supplement.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 13:54:57

@Wiley to the PPU educational projects mainly. The annual income of the PPU is c£95k. Which is about the same as the salary of the British Legion Chief Exec.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 13:56:18

@LteveDallas The White Poppy is neither a gimick nor disrespectful and it does not 'hijack' remembrance day. Remembrance is not the sole preserve of the Haig Fund.

RebeccaMumsnet (MNHQ) Fri 09-Nov-12 13:56:42

Hi all,

Many thanks for all of the reports about this thread, we will be going through it shortly to remove the personal attacks and other posts that break our guidelines.

We do understand peoples concern but, from what we know of the OP, we don't think she deliberately started this thread to goad/inflame.

Please remember that personal attacks do break our Talk guidelines and are likely to be deleted.  

Do feel free, however, to counter her opinion, as many others have, with your own very different thoughts about the value and importance of the Poppy Appeal.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 13:58:46

@RebeccaMumsnet I presume you meant to include an invitation to add thoughts about the value and importance of the White Poppy movement and the Peace Pledge Union too, yes? Or is the message of No More War not one that Mumsnet thinks has value and importance?

I find the white poppy the political statement.

Just my opinion though.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 13:59:45

@Tess Indeed it is just your opinion.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 14:00:04

Mordion what are their educational projects - i couldn't really make head nor tail of their website, it didn't appear very clear.

On their website making a point of the Bomber Command memorial sat uncomfortably with me.

But perhaps that is because i do not know much about the White Poppy and what it funds exactly.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 14:01:03

I find their website perfectly clear.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 14:01:58

People really reported this thread? Because they actually couldn't believe the OP actually held opinions different from theirs?

Fook me.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 14:02:40

"I find the white poppy the political statement"

From what i have seen i agree.

I have to say they have political messages about reducing funding to the military on their website etc. whilst the Red Poppy is about raising money to help ex/servicemen and their families.

Mordion - do you assume that anyone who wears a red poppy is a supporter of war?

mayorquimby Fri 09-Nov-12 14:03:36

I'm Irish so there's a few obvious reasons why I wouldn't wear one but fair play to those who do, they're entitled to hold whatever views and support whatever causes they choose.
No problem with anyone who either chooses or chooses not to wear them, only those who try and enforce their morals on others either way.
I've heard of a fair few people in England being pressurised into wearing them, but then again there's probably a load of places in Ireland where you'd get pressured to take them off

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 14:05:07

But Mordion i am genuinely asking what education it funds exactly. I do not find their website clear. The only thing on there that is clear to me is their political stance.

I am asking for you to tell me about their educational work - you have asked Mumsnet to continue to add your views about White Poppy/PPU.

I asked and you couldn't be bothered to answer.

Latonia Fri 09-Nov-12 14:05:16

You know the saying 'ignorance is bliss', there are a few 'blissful' people on this thread.

My grandfather died in WWI, fighting in the trenches in France. Without him and all the other hundreds of thousands of young men who went to war, many of whom lost their lives, we would all be part of a German Empire today, singing not God Save the Queen but Deutschland Uber Alles and of course, speaking German. Nor would you be on the internet spouting such shit.

If you don't want to buy a poppy, don't buy one biscuit

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 14:05:47

Remembrance is not the sole preserve of the Haig Fund

It hasn't been the Haig Fund for years, do keep up.

Yes I believe it is a gimick and disrespectful to wear a white poppy, on its own, on Remembrance Day - PPU have 364 other days in which they could fund raise for their own pockets, why pick the one day a year set aside solely to remember the war dead?

The Red Poppy is not Political. It is for Remembrance, nothing more, nothing less.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 14:08:05

This is where i am confused about the White Poppy - their website clearly states political aims and objectives.

The Red Poppy Appeal has charitable aims.

So i do not understand the significance of wearing a white poppy on Remembrance day when that is what a Red Poppy is for.

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 14:11:08

@Tess I don't believe I said that. I personally prefer the unambiguous message of the PPU which has not been hijacked by a variety of different sometimes competing philosophical, political and nationalistic viewpoints and motivations. I prefer the unambiguous remember the fallen and their sacrifice but strive to your utmost to find a better way going forward message.

As did my father. Who was actually IN WW2.

I also believe that everyone should have the choice to wear a poppy of whatever colour they wish and not be criticised for it. This is the sort of thing that was important to my dad.

Ministrone Fri 09-Nov-12 14:12:48

I believe in live and let live. My great-uncle, who through no choice of his own fought in the second world war and contracted diabetes after being a POW would just have felt sorry for someone who is so lacking in intellect.
Remembrance -

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 14:13:23

The Red Poppy is not Political.

I disagree. Remembering war is a political statment. Supporting charity is a political statement. It may be a majority political view and ideology, but it is a political statement.

Startail Fri 09-Nov-12 14:13:58

To me my poppy does not glorify war it reminds me of its horrors.
Mine is not in remembrance of those who died, but of my Grandfather and my Great aunt who's lives WW1 changed forever.

I'm not a pacifist and I believe that conflict is an inevitable part of human nature.

We should not like it and should do all we can to encourage understanding and tolerance, but young men and women will continue to risk their lives to protect the society we live in.

We should support them, do all we can if they are injured and help their bereaved dependants.

Mordion - I'm not saying you said that, I was simply asking you.

Out of the white poppy wearers I have encountered over the years, some of them have thought the red poppy glorifies war, and that anyone who wears a red poppy does to. The others obviously didn't.

I agree that everyone should have the choice to wear what colour poppy they want, but I object to the image that some non-red poppy wearers try to paint of the RBL fund. Anyone who thinks that the RBL is there to support war, needs to be educated.

My RBL area's County Chairman said at our AGM this year:

"While I am proud to serve the British Legion, and get to be involved in supporting our veterans and troops when no-one else will, I like to think there'll be a day the RBL won't be needed, because I dream of a time when there is no war."

Needless he got a standing ovation after that point from everyone in the room; veterans, currently serving soldiers and members with no forces affiliation at all. The latter is what I fit into.

PostBellumBugsy Fri 09-Nov-12 14:22:22

The Royal British Legion is a charity & one of its biggest fund-raisers is the annual red poppy appeal. When you donate to the RBL at this time of year, it is very likely you will be given a poppy.

The poppy is worn as a sign of rememberance for all those who died in wars. Wars are usually started by politicians, but they are fought by ordinary people. Those ordinary people make sacrifices on behalf of all of the rest of us & it is those who were killed, maimed or bereaved that we remember on 11th November & also helping by donating to RBL.

Hippymum89 We live in a free society & no one is going to force you remember - but I am glad we do and I will be remembering. If ever you get the chance to read about the conditions of those who fought, particularly in the First World War (where they had no choice because of conscription) - please do. It is humbling & heart-wrenching.

Ministrone Fri 09-Nov-12 14:25:19

Bloody oath! Who do we think is in favour of wars, it's certainly not individuals who may join the services.
People don't start war governments start wars

MordionAgenos Fri 09-Nov-12 14:27:02

@Tess I think that possibly some people who wear the red poppy do glorify militarism, if not war itself. There are so many political issues intrinsically linked with defence spending, for example. And the Big Brother/newspeak agenda promoted by the Red Poppy militants - at times evident in this thread - is another example of this. But I also think that the vast majority of people in this thread and people in the UK wear a poppy to remember the dead and be humble when considering their sacrifice. Which is what I also do through wearing my White Poppy. If someone is not a pacifist then the White Poppy might not be for them. For people who do abhor war and consciously believe in pacifism (as opposed to not glorifying war but not necessarily supporting pacifism - taking each case on its merits, which is what I believe is the position of most Red Poppy wearers, just not the ones who shout loudest) then I can see why they wear the Red Poppy and I have no problem with that. But it is clearly a political symbol now, as it was when it was first created. Political symbols aren't necessarily bad but linking them with remembrance is, I feel. The White Poppy has two clear and well defined aims - remembrance, and an appeal to end all war and militarism. Thus, I wear the White Poppy.

lovelyladuree Fri 09-Nov-12 14:27:18

These days, people choose to join the armed forces. They join knowing the risks, but do so anyway. Why should they receive any kind of handout for killing people? YANBU. I won't ever buy a poppy. I pay taxes. Let the government fund their rehab. After all, they were following government orders. And the Royal British Legion has thousands of paid workers and a board of paid directors. They aren't all volunteers. Sentimental claptrap.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 14:31:18

lovelyladuree

shock

Appalling

gordyslovesheep Fri 09-Nov-12 14:32:48

Don't buy one then <shrugs>

I donate to the appeal

I wear a white poppy

The REASON being it belonged to me beloved Grandfather - a D-Day veteran who believed in peace and humanity

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 14:33:04

Well as this is being delete anyway

FUCK OFF

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 14:33:47

lovelyladuree

Your attitude is disgusting.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Fri 09-Nov-12 14:39:12

YANBU and spouting utter bloody rubbish.

And lovely hmm Wiley's right, what an appalling post.

I wear my poppy in honour of my grandad who was a prisoner of war in Chungkai, Burma and suffered the most awful cruelty which haunted him for the rest of jis life.

Because of people like my grandad and other the brave men and women like him idiots like you enjoy the freedom you do now.

spamm Fri 09-Nov-12 14:40:35

I am attending a Veterans Day event at my ds's school today, and I will be proud to see my husband honored for his service - even if it was in the British Army. I will be wearing my poppy, which you do not see that much in the US, but people always notice and appreciate. I will be thinking about how hard it has been for dh to come to terms with some of the things he experienced, and that only other veterans can truly understand - I can only try and empathize. I will be thinking about all the veterans, living and dead, and quietly thanking them for everything they did. To me, it will not be a political statement, but simply a thank you.

lovelyladuree - I have a theory about people like you.

You slag off our forces, yet if we didn't have them and we got invaded, it's people like you who would be the first to wail and moan about the fact we don't have armed forces.

I often wonder why the soldiers do volunteer to serve, when they have continue to protect the freedom of people like you.

Oh and also lovelyladuree, yes the RBL does have paid workers, as there needs to be people who:

* Manage the funds.
* Organise respite care.
* Arrange/provide counselling and support for ex-members of the forces, so they can cope with life in 'civvy street'.
* Advise veterans and soldiers on legal matters.

And so on, so forth.

Those of us who volunteer for the RBL put a few hours in here and there, the people who WORK for the RBL put in regular working hours, and thus are paid for that.

You wouldn't work for free would you?!

lashingsofbingeinghere Fri 09-Nov-12 14:48:08

lovelyladuree - last time I looked the armed forces do a lot more than simply kill people. They also defend, peace keep, rebuild and train.

Would you rather we had no armed forces and took our chances that, should a hostile power ever cast its eyes over our shores, we could defend ourselves by chucking our mobile phones and handbags at them?

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 14:54:41

You slag off our forces, yet if we didn't have them and we got invaded, it's people like you who would be the first to wail and moan about the fact we don't have armed forces.

Who's going to invade you? And aren't the majority of the armed forces overseas anyway?
And don't you think civilians might rise up against this mythical invading army?

PostBellumBugsy Fri 09-Nov-12 14:57:38

Aw lovely - where did your compassion go?

Do you really think that young men & women (most of them still teenagers) really understand what they are signing up for? How can they possibly get their young, immature minds around what it might be like to live with a limb missing or acutely severe PTSD, let alone death?

I know I am not brave enough to face dying for my country, so I am profoundly, deeply grateful that there are others prepared to do that for me.

When we live in a world where the threat of war has disappeared and all the veterans of war have died - then I'm prepared to consider that remembering those who've died & those who have suffered is sentimental claptrap. Until then, it is a really ignorant & ungrateful thing to say.

RubyrooUK Fri 09-Nov-12 14:58:58

I think YANBU, OP.

I think you don't have to buy a poppy if you don't want to, because you live in a free country. You don't have to wear symbols on your clothes that you dislike. You can hold your opinions and they can differ from mine.

Unlike my relatives who lived in Germany and during the period leading up to WW2, actually DID have to wear a symbol on their clothing by state law. It was a yellow star to show they were Jews and should be denied rights. It was easier to discriminate against them and eventually kill them if they were helpfully identified by a symbol.

For me, a poppy is a symbol of terrible loss of life and the horrors of war. I am fervently anti-war but pro-education so I think it's useful for myself and others to be reminded about war and its consequences.

But because we are lucky enough to live in the UK in this day and age, where my husband and sons will not be conscripted, I can also feel that everyone else has the right to feel differently.

As the saying goes "I disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it". So neither the OP or anyone else who doesn't like poppies has to wear them. But those who wish to, can. That's why we are lucky to live in the UK.

^Who's going to invade you? And aren't the majority of the armed forces overseas anyway?
And don't you think civilians might rise up against this mythical invading army?^

If we sat here without any forces, we'd be fair game, don't you think?!

And yes, I'm sure a lot of untrained civilians would be really effective.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 15:00:06

No, the majority of the armed forces is not overseas.

Without training, and arms, civilians will not be able to 'rise up'

I'm sure Poland didn't expect to be invaded, either.

Back to your box Virginia, you know not of what you speak.

HokeyCokeyPigInAPokey Fri 09-Nov-12 15:00:09

RubyrooUK what a brilliant post.

threesocksmorgan Fri 09-Nov-12 15:00:21

every year we get thick as shit threads like this.
they are full of the same drivel as the op here is.
what a pile of shit

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 15:02:14

I am sure loverlyladee will be thrilled at the price my family has paid.

Should give her a nice warm glow.

DaveMccave Fri 09-Nov-12 15:04:45

OP, I feel the same as you. Someones probably already mentioned this in 12 pages, but there is an alternative by a white poppy.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:07:37

I don't think it matters since no-one is going to invade you. Even inside my box I can tell that.

Poland did expect to be invaded. And I think you'll find things have changed rather a lot since then.

But its all a moot point since its been, what, 700 years since your country was last invaded? Not actually a realistic prospect, more a hyperbolic rhetoric designed to win pointless internet arguments with random strangers.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 15:12:25

So why post on a thread about the Royal British Legions Poppy Appeal. What does it matter to you - are you just trolling?

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 15:13:46

Virginia you DO seem to enjoy a nice little ruck have to say. Popping up everywhere with the most disagreeable view possible.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 15:17:18

VirginiaDare so...Britain should have no defences because we haven't been invaded in "700" years. I believe actually,it has been longer than that.

If we had had no defences in WWII we would have been invaded. If we had no defences,we would have been unable to protect the British citizens of the Falkland Islands.

Things happen,defences are needed.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 15:18:05

PickledFanjoCat I've noticed that as well.

Sirzy Fri 09-Nov-12 15:19:54

I picked my nephew up from pre school today, they had made poppies and he very proudly told me "this is to remember the soilders"

Nobody is forced to wear a poppy, join in any sort of rememberance parade or silence. What is unreasonable is to try to argue against how much soilders gave up (and still do) in order to help protect us. Whatever your view on wars are they happen and as such I will be eternally greatful for the men and women who are willing to risk their lives.

I will wear my poppy with pride and I will parade with pride on Sunday.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:25:07

It hasn't been longer than that. 1326 I do believe.

I'm still wondering who exactly you think is going to invade you.

Anyway, back to the point. Do non commonwealth countries wear a poppy or have the equivalent, or is it a peculiarly British-esqe doohickey?

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 15:28:19

This thread is sad. Why can't we debate more politely?

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 15:29:38

Virginia are you an American?

IvanaHumpalotCountDracula Fri 09-Nov-12 15:29:49

I agree with RubyRooUK

I am eternally grateful my Jewish great grandfather was allow to settle here and am proud my (non) Jewish grandfather fought in WWII and came home. Without these two men and the tolerance of the UK (generally) I don't think I would be here today - or at least not in this capacity.

The poppy for me is about everyone who fought, died, lived through and came out the other side. It's not about the 'glory of war'. My grandfather came back from war a changed man - he never spoke or remanissed about it, never accepted his medals and became an atheist.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 09-Nov-12 15:30:25

I find it a bit ironic all the "How dare you say that! Soliders died for your freedom!"

It is exactly that freedom to express such views.

My unease with the RBL and particularly the tone of the modern appeal is that, IMHO it romanticises war.

Men were treated like cannon fodder and forced/ sent off to die in terrible conditions.
We still have an army (where the poorer working classes and care-leavers are hugely overrepresented) are sent of to be killed and maimed in horrible conditions in ever more pointless and unjust conflicts.

Painting it all as a remembrance of heroism let's the government off the hook ethically and financially.

Oh, btw my dad served in the army for many years and is well aware of my views.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 15:33:20

Um...where did you get 1326 from? I was thinking 1066 myself.

And it turns out we were both wrong Virginia the last time invaders set foot on British mainland was 1797.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:36:59

Isabella of France and her mercenary army, 1326.
1797? Not sure about that one, by who and where?

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 15:37:09

And it turns out we were both wrong Virginia the last time invaders set foot on British mainland was 1797.

Quite, and we wear a poppy to remember those who ensured it wasn't 1940.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 09-Nov-12 15:38:19

French Legionare. February 1797. Fishguard.

SusanneLinder Fri 09-Nov-12 15:39:09

VirginiaDare so...Britain should have no defences because we haven't been invaded in "700" years. I believe actually,it has been longer than that.

Actually technically it was 1940-1944. Luftwaffe anyone? And the Germans invaded the Channel Islands that are "technically" British.That was only 70 years ago.

FlaminNoraImPregnantPanda Fri 09-Nov-12 15:39:35

1797? Not sure about that one, by who and where?

The French landed in Fishguard.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:39:35

Operation Sea Lion (German invasion of England) was never even properly planned let alone attempted, and was never a realistic possibility, mainly due to the germans v small naval capacity.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 15:40:40

The channel islands were invaded and were resolutly ignored by the British Government. But we don't really go on about that do we? Because you know, we only remember the nice bits where we won.

@Goth its not a 'bit' ironic

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 15:40:45

Not forgetting King Billy, which was an invasion or a rescue, depending on which side of things one stood.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:41:48

I wouldn't call the battle of fishguard an invasion, since they were defeated in a day by locals, but I suppose so.

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 15:42:43

I like having freedom of speech to disagree with other peoples freedom to speech on occasion.

Im also grateful for it and everyone that made it possible.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:42:50

and the Channel Islands are part of Britain, technically or otherwise.

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 15:42:58

Double hard welsh see.

grovel Fri 09-Nov-12 15:44:54

They were frightened off by a male voice choir. Understandable, really.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 15:45:45

so you really think people shouldn't be able to equate war with murder? Why not?

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 15:47:03

and the Channel Islands are not part of Britain, technically or otherwise.

molly199 Fri 09-Nov-12 15:48:52

I think perhaps the soldiers were sent to certain countrys to fight but for example in Ireland during the troubles they were sent there and what did they do, KILL loads of innocent people. They were sent to protect not fight and they had choice, fair enough they were sent their but they didnt have to kill many people. Therefore i completly disagree with poppys and what they represent.

noddyholder Fri 09-Nov-12 15:50:22

It is fine not to wear one I wouldn't after being brought up in northern ireland and having it rammed down my throat every year by some rather dubious men who came to the school BUT it is a personal choice and there is no need to start a thread which may upset those who see it as important just because you don't.

grovel Fri 09-Nov-12 15:51:53

Channel Islanders are British subjects but not necessarily British citizens.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 15:51:57

oh that's fine then.

StElmo Fri 09-Nov-12 15:55:32

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

CominThroughTheWry Fri 09-Nov-12 15:57:36

When I visit my Gran's grave, I walk past the graves of many, many men who died in WW1, many of whom who were only in their teens. It makes me weep to think of the conditions they fought and died in. So many young men from such a small town, so many devastated families.

And still the deaths continue, with families and friends losing their loved ones. I am grateful that my sister and neighbour's son came to no harm and that my friends have so far come home safely.

I give my donation and wear my poppy to pay my respects and to help those who found their lives changed forever by their memories and injuries.

Feminine Fri 09-Nov-12 15:58:45

My family are from the Channel Islands.

My Grandmother and Mum were taken from their homes and taken to interment camps in 1942.

My Mum was just 8 months.

To read the postcards my Gran sent my G-grandparents are heartbreaking. Begging for them to try and get shoes/blankets to her for my Mum.

My Grandmother is dead now. None of the Channel Islanders have received compensation from the German Government nor the British sad

I still wear a poppy.

SusanneLinder Fri 09-Nov-12 15:59:00

The channel islands were invaded and were resolutly ignored by the British Government. But we don't really go on about that do we? Because you know, we only remember the nice bits where we won.

Don't be so fucking ridiculous.They were hardly ignored. It was just a teensy bit difficult to try and defend the Channel Islands as well when we were fighting a war on our bloody own for 2 years. hmm

Remember we had disarmed cos we didn't want a war, and had to get help for ships and ammunitions from Franklin D Roosevelt in his lend lease programme.

Or do you just remember the bits that suit you and then twist it grin

Feminine Fri 09-Nov-12 16:01:41

Susanne, my family would disagree with you.

They were ignored during the war, and after.

Jews on the Island had (as we all know) a much worse fate. sad

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 16:01:55

What "nice bits" are you referring to anyway? What an odd thing to say.

grovel Fri 09-Nov-12 16:06:10

When the Germans got control of French ports it was always going to be impossible to defend the Channel Islands (only a few miles from the coast).

The British Government consulted the islands' elected government representatives, in order to formulate a policy regarding evacuation. Opinion was divided and, without a policy being imposed on the islands, chaos ensued and different policies were adopted by the different islands. The British Government concluded their best policy was to make available as many ships as possible so that islanders had the option to leave if they wanted to. The authorities in Alderney recommended that all islanders evacuate, and nearly all did so; the Dame of Sark, Sibyl Mary Hathaway, encouraged everyone to stay. Guernsey evacuated all children of school age, giving the parents the option of keeping their children with them, or evacuating with their school. In Jersey, the majority of islanders chose to stay.

The islanders had a choice - a horrible one but still a choice.

Based on this thread I'm beginning to think that actually it DOES romanticise war.

You seem to have this idea that all British soldiers are upstanding citizens going out into the big bad world to be heroes and kill all the baddies! It's juvenile in the extreme to think the British army is "good" and everyone else is "bad".

I said upthread there are other families in the world who have lost loved ones too. To them, British soldiers ARE murderers. One mam's terrorist is another mam's freedom fighter and all that jazz.

I certainly feel nothing but disdain for the British soldiers who murdered my ancestors in Ireland!

But, as I said, I think people absolutely have the right to wear their poppies with pride. But could maybe stand to be a little less close-minded and insulting to those who don't agree with it?

Feminine Fri 09-Nov-12 16:09:51

I don't think my Mum and Gran had any choice confused

It wasn't a day out.

But your other points are valid/true.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 16:12:01

my understanding was that there weren't enough ships.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 16:13:24

What a load of bollocks Mr Soldier.

Fighting in afghanistan has nothing to do with freedom for british people, and the taliban wouldn't be invading even if there wasn't a single british soldier. Why do people insist on spouting such rubbish? All it does it make people wonder if you have the first idea what you are doing there.

EldritchCleavage Fri 09-Nov-12 16:13:36

You don't have to agree with the wars fought or lionise British soldiers to wear a poppy. Just have compassion for ordinary people, whether conscripts or volunteers (often with very few other options career-wise), soldiers, stretcher-bearers or medics, who have gone through hideous and shattering experiences.

If we had no rituals of remembrance, I think the lives and sacrifice of these ordinary people would be even more cynically exploited by politicians, not less.

I think the Vietnam war was unjustified, but I'd never want British troops who fought in such a war getting the sort of treatment meted out to them that American Vietnam veterans got when they returned home.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 16:16:58

I certainly feel nothing but disdain for the British soldiers who murdered my ancestors in Ireland

I feel as much disdain for those soldiers as I do the scumbag IRA and UVF that murdered thousands of their countrymen.

But that is NOT what the Poppy is about. The Poppy is a symbol of Remembrance for those men and women who died in the fight for peace. They paid the ultimate sacrifice, whether in the fields of foreign lands, in the desert, or closer to home. They died on battlefields, in terrorist attacks and of old age. Dead, they deserve Remembrance; alive they deserve help, their families deserve help. The Poppy gives them that.

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 16:17:21

I hate posts like that one too
as it goes.

They are unhelpful and as stupid as some of the anti poppy ones.

I agree with you LtEve and as I said I take no issue with it (why would I?) but some of the posts on here make me a little uncomfortable. They are romanticising every British soldier who ever fought IMO. And quite frankly, some of them don't deserve it!

NiniLegsInTheAir Fri 09-Nov-12 16:19:38

Stelmos post makes me very sad. If that's the kind of Soldier we have out there representing our country, no wonder some countries really hate us.

wm3010 Fri 09-Nov-12 16:21:33

I agree with Waltermittymissus. I usually wear a poppy. I don't really agree with war but I do think it is right to show respect to those who have lost their lives in the armed forces. Also accept that, depending on what 'side' you're on views of particular actions will differ. I am put off wearing a poppy by the fact it now seems to be a requirement and no-one is allowed to question it. People should always be allowed to respectfully question things or give their opinion.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 16:22:56

StElmos boyfriend is ONE soldier out of 250,000.

I am another.

Don't choose to judge the whole British Army by the voice of one.

SquirrelsAteMyCheese Fri 09-Nov-12 16:23:59

I have no issue with risking my own life to defend your right to free speech, even if your beliefs and politics are not the same as mine. Difference is what makes democracy. If you have no desire to wear a poppy then that is your business. I do however object to having to put up with personal insults and vilification because of it. I fail to see why, when you hold an opinion that you know is likely to be offensive to a large number of people, many of whom have endured a great deal of personal sacrifice that you know very little about, you want to use that opinion as a basis to pick a fight deliberately.

Some of us have to fight in areas where we are not protected by the anonymity of a computer, and not do it from the comfort of an armchair. Pop down to the Cenotaph on Sunday, say what you've just said now, and see how brave you feel then.

grovel Fri 09-Nov-12 16:25:03

Feminine/Ethel, you are both right. 3 days into the evacuation the Germans bombed Guernsey harbour and the evacuation stopped. No-one is sure as to how many more islanders would have wanted to leave.

WileyRoadRunner Fri 09-Nov-12 16:25:57

Well said squirrel

Wish there was a round of applause emoticon!

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 16:26:18

I am put off wearing a poppy by the fact it now seems to be a requirement and no-one is allowed to question it. People should always be allowed to respectfully question things or give their opinion.

Exactly. That's why I stopped wearing them. My freedom is better displayed by not wearing one rather than pandying to silly bullies tbh.

GothAnneGeddes Fri 09-Nov-12 16:27:13

Virginia - quite. All such rhetoric does is obscure the real issues.

The Afghanistan invasion was to protect Afghan women - hahaha!

And yet that solider seems to honestly believe that, hence my point about young men (and women) being used as fodder to serve political interests.

Also Vietnam vets weren't treated badly because of moral unease at the war, but because they were seen as having "lost" and therefore as an embarrassment, such feelings coming from thwarted jingoism rather then anti-war sentiment.

grovel Fri 09-Nov-12 16:27:35

I buy a poppy but never wear it. But then I don't wear the wristbands/ribbons/sticky badges of other charities either.

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 16:29:08

Your opinions are extreme and not exactly respectful Ethel.

Though i do agree with The overall sentiment I haven't seen personally a person come on this thread with a well put comment in why it's not for them getting jumped on. Just provocative ones.

Which is probably just what they are after so no big deal.

MrsDeVere Fri 09-Nov-12 16:29:21

It is also not fair to judge everyone who wears a poppy or the poppy movement based on the jingoism and bandwagon jumping of a few.

I too hate all the 'all soldiers are brave heros' bollocks. There are a lot of damaged bastards in the forces, just like in civilian life.

BUT, just as I refuse to allow the BNP to misappropriate the British Flag for their own means, I refuse to allow a bunch of twats to put me off wearing a poppy.

I think people are being a bit snobbish. They do not want to be seen as sheeple. They dont want anyone to mistake them for a Sun reading 'our brave boys <sob>' chav.

Have the courage of your convictions. Wear it if you believe it is to remember the utter waste of war and to raise money for those affected by being in the forces.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 16:29:50

but squirrel, why should soldiers be exempt from other people's views of them? No other groups are on MN.

PickledFanjoCat Fri 09-Nov-12 16:31:05

They aren't. Clearly.

BUT, just as I refuse to allow the BNP to misappropriate the British Flag for their own means, I refuse to allow a bunch of twats to put me off wearing a poppy.

Love this ^^

KitchenandJumble Fri 09-Nov-12 16:32:18

Wear a poppy, don't wear a poppy, the choice is yours. I'm not British, though I used to wear a poppy when I lived in England. It was a way to remember the terrible loss of life that war brings and also a hope that there won't be any more wars.

However, I must admit I am really uncomfortable with the oft repeated lines about soldiers who died "for our freedom" and the like. The poor sods who died in the trenches in WWI (the original inspiration for the poppy appeal) didn't do a thing to advance the cause of freedom. They died in a brutal, senseless, entirely avoidable war. They might have believed the rhetoric they were fed, but that doesn't make it true.

You could make the case that WWII was a fight for freedom, and given the historical circumstances, I do think it was a war that had to be fought. However, you could also argue that WWII occurred as a result of WWI and the terms of the peace. So without the first war, we might have been able to avoid the devastation and loss of the second world war.

As for the wars of the past decade, once again I do not believe for one moment that the soldiers who died were protecting my right to voice my opinion or anything like that. That doesn't mean we should forget them. Of course not. We should remember them and mourn their loss and do everything in our power to keep other soldiers (and civilians) safe from the horrors of war. But let's do it without the overblown and (IMO) inaccurate rhetoric about freedom.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 16:34:04

It's not an extreme view.

It is quite compatible with modern mainstream Christianity. No, not all Christians agree with me, but ultimatly many Christians view the sanctitiy of life as an important thing and therfore war as an abomination.

SquirrelsAteMyCheese Fri 09-Nov-12 16:37:13

Ethel, as I said, I have no issue with people having opinions. What I object to is personal attacks, which all groups are protected from on MN. It's a question of being reasonable; if for example I came up on an abortion thread and called someone a murderer, I'd probably be flamed. Why should you not be flamed for calling a soldier a murderer?

Lt Eve - you're one of 250,000 soldiers? You're not in the British Army then.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 16:41:57

@squirrels tbh I am shocked that the military are so thin skinned. Its as though the notion that taking a job that involves killing people might not be everyones cup of tea is a surprise to many people on this thread. I honestly wasn't trying to upset or provoke. I'm sorry if people misunderstood. But I really do think perhaps I was showing people a few home truths which is why they reacted so badly. And I am genuinly quite surprised by that. I thought people might have a few more intelligent rebukes than just suggesting I "don't understand".

I don't think viewing abortion as murder is an 'extreme' view either actually. It's a valid opinion, even if it is a minority view.

Mrsjay Fri 09-Nov-12 16:42:25

I watched a Tv programme last night about the trenches in WW1 which is what rememebrence day is all about well it is how it all started and from that day till now men and women are dying as a result of war and conflict and I will wear a poppy and respect the silence YABU to think it is murder you have no idea YANBU to not wear a poppy nobody forces you

anklebitersmum Fri 09-Nov-12 16:48:36

@squirrels tbh I am shocked that the military are so thin skinned.

shock The Armed Forces are human hmm

spamm Fri 09-Nov-12 16:54:39

Surely it is not about when we were last invaded, but about all the attempted invasions we have repelled and would have happened had we not had armed forces. The Battle of Britain is exactly that. It was fought over the skies of Britain by very young Brits, Poles, Canadians, French, Rhodesians, South Africans, Malawians, Americans, Czechs, Australians, New Zealanders, Irish, and so many more I have forgotten, because they believed it was their duty. And because Nazi Germany wanted to weaken British resolve and attempt a serious invasion - a tactic they had used across Europe to real effect. I do not believe civilians in the streets with pitchforks and axes would have been sufficient, although they played a role in so many ways.

Crinkle77 Fri 09-Nov-12 16:58:42

The poppy does not glorify war. It is a symbol of remembrance

SquirrelsAteMyCheese Fri 09-Nov-12 17:00:11

Ethel - yes, some of us have feelings. Would you prefer us all to be cold-hearted killing machines? smile

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 17:01:06

Yes I am Squirrels, and have been for 22 years.

The British Army has approximately 140,000 serving soldiers and approximately 110,000 Reserves (anyone that joins the British Army and leaves by choice before the end of their 22 year contract automatically gets Regular Reserve liability)

thebody Fri 09-Nov-12 17:02:56

What a stupid post.. I am wearing mine to remember my sons friend killed in Afghanistan aged 18..

HeyJo Fri 09-Nov-12 17:03:17

OP. I suggest you read Birdsong and come back when you're done.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Fri 09-Nov-12 17:05:06

LtEve, MrsD and others are doing a sterling job on this thread so I'll leave it to them pretty much other than to say I'm a bit confused by suggestions here that the Armed Forces role is soley to prevent the British Isles being invaded.

Service personnel do some amazing work overseas, often in warzones, sometimes not, often in very hazardous environments. Much of this barely receives a mention in the press - I wish it did.

SquirrelsAteMyCheese Fri 09-Nov-12 17:05:49

Lt Eve - interesting, that's a lot more than the Defence Intranet says!

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 17:06:09

@squirrel I want to know why the military's feelings must be spared here, when no such consideration is made for many other groups on MN?

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Fri 09-Nov-12 17:07:24

Apols for lack of punctuation there. I'm tired. blush

SoleSource Fri 09-Nov-12 17:09:54

Because it happened -- unlike what it says in any so called Holy book--

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 17:10:37

You are a bit confused, since nobody said that.

The british army along with the americans invaded afghanistan almost exactly 11 years ago to defeat the taliban. Hows that going by the way?

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 17:12:05

Squirrels, HQLF MOSS site. More relevant and more up to date.

Virginia most of us on this thread have been able to voice opposition to the poppy without resorting to provocative and nasty posts.

Maybe that's how you get your kicks but there are people on here who have loved ones still fighting in Afghanistan. By all means, you are entitled to your opinion on the war but you should have some respect.

Don't blame on-the-ground soldiers for the decisions of governments. They fight where they're told to fight.

VirginiaDare Fri 09-Nov-12 17:16:12

Nothing nasty or provocative in my posts. I don't blame anyone for anything, I'm just asking questions.

Why should I have respect? For what exactly?

SquirrelsAteMyCheese Fri 09-Nov-12 17:17:42

Ethel - like it or not, everyone on MN is supposed to be entitled to the same degree of courtesy:

Whilst this topic does canvass opinions,*it is not a fight club*. You may disagree with other posters but we do ask you please to stick to our Talk Guidelines and to be civil. We don't allow personal attacks.

It's not just about the military! I have no problem with engaging in civilised debate with people of different opinions, but I object to name-calling and abuse.

shinyblackgrape Fri 09-Nov-12 17:18:09

Oh God - the annual poppy thread. Buy one or don't. Wear one or don't. partly due to the actions and sacrifices of the soldiers that poppies honour, you have the choice to do what you would like.

SquirrelsAteMyCheese Fri 09-Nov-12 17:18:42

Thanks Lt E - will check it out on Mon. smile

RuleBritannia Fri 09-Nov-12 17:21:10

I've just returned from a week in the Falklands. I was moved to tears not just by the number of memorials to our servicemen and women who fought for the liberation of the Falkland Islands from the Argentines. I met some of those who were around at the time in 1982 and heard some of their stories.

They are all so grateful for what we our soldiers, airmen and sailors did - for them that they cannot do enough for us. They see themselves as British and they are. It's for that sort of situation that we have an army, an air force and a navy. If we had not had that sort of people during the Second World War, where would be be now?

That's why we buy poppies - except that we don't really buy them. We donate and have one. The money goes towards such worthy causes that I hope the Royal British Legion goes on and on.

Hippymum89 I think you should be glad that you live in this country. If we hadn't had service people during WWII, we wouldn't have the country that we have now.

<sometimes types with clenched fists>

Oblomov Fri 09-Nov-12 17:21:18

eTHELB: "I do think that if everyone had stayed at home for ww1 then ww2 might not have happened"

Errr no. Thats competely false. Please do some research: reasons for ww1; reasons for ww2.

I studied ww1 and ww2 at GCSE, A'level and at degree level. And what you are saying is just not true.

Virginia
I do not approve of the war in Afghanistan. However, I am able to recognise that the decision to go to war there was taken by the politicians I voted for (or against!) not by the British Army.

If our elected government makes a choice I disagree with I will and did protest but I will not blame the service personnel who are suffering on the ground for the folly of politicians.

I choose to wear a poppy not because I support militarism but because I think it is good to remember the cost of going to war.

Why should I have respect? For what exactly?

For the parents, children, partners, siblings etc of the people fighting there?

You'll see from upthread that I don't agree with romanticising all British soldiers. But I hope I'm compassionate enough to understand that when talking about current conflict, it's very close to home for some people posting on here.

Iceaddict Fri 09-Nov-12 17:23:58

I just wore a poppy to a funeral. Didn't stop me thinking of the person who passed away as well as remembering others. Does wearing poppies stop us thinking of and respecting others who have past?

Rule unless you met every single person living there how can you possibly know that they all see themselves as British?!

Iceaddict Fri 09-Nov-12 17:26:37

As far as not wanting to buy a poppy you can do what you want it's nobody's business

RuleBritannia Fri 09-Nov-12 17:27:15

waltermittymissus and hippymum89

People like you make me sick.

Excuse me? How exactly do I make you sick? Have you read my posts?

socharlotte Fri 09-Nov-12 17:30:28

Re charities.
Another point about charities is that they have control of funds and can spend it where they think it will do most good.They have no axe to grind and no hidden agenda.Funding coming from the government on the other hand.....

StElmo Fri 09-Nov-12 17:33:00

Virginia, you are an idiot. Do some research

CreamOfTomatoSoup Fri 09-Nov-12 17:33:01

I agree that poppies glorify war. OP, you are not stupid.
My major issues with the poppies is their focus on WW1 which i don't consider to be a just war, it was basically an imperialistic war which unfortunately involved a load of poor innocent people (men and women). WW2 was fought to maintain our freedom and I don't have a problem with that. However, I think overall the message shouldn't be that 'fighting is brave'. It should be that 'death is sad'. Buy a white poppy for peace maybe.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 17:43:05

Poppies do not glorify war. They are a symbol of Remembrance.

This week I have been wearing mine and thinking lots of a dear friend who died in Afghanistan a year ago. I have been thinking of his father who has been posting heartbreaking comments and photos on his FB page in memory of his son. On Sunday no doubt I shall shed a tear, for him and for all the others, the fallen, the suffering and the healthy.

I don't agree with you OP, I think your logic is poor, but I also don't agree with the level of vitriol being directed at you. The nasty insults do nothing but shut down conversation and I'm sure a lot of the good points people have made in this thread will now be ignored because of them.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 17:58:03

My point is that you are asking fir more than courtesy to be shown too the military than any other group. If I had broken the guidelines my posts would have been deleted. Only people responding to the op were.

Uppermid Fri 09-Nov-12 17:59:31

It is your decision on whether you wear a poppy or not, no one says you have to, but you are completely wrong to say that wearing a poppy glorifies war. A poppy is worn as a mark of respect for the men and women who have died or been injured whilst in service.

Tuttutitlookslikerain Fri 09-Nov-12 18:34:56

LtEve why do the Army wear their poppies behind their cap badges? DH, and the other serving RAF members I have seen wearing poppies wear them on their jumpers or jackets, I just wonder why the Army do it differently.

I hate these debates every year. I wear my poppy with pride. I am grateful I have the choice, and I have the choice because of the men and women who have given their lives in war. I am grateful to the people who are brave enough to choose to join the Armed Forces knowing that there is a chance they could die in the line of duty.

The RBL don't just help veterans, the help serving Forces members and their families too. Maybe there shouldn't be a need for them and the Government should put up more money, but they don't. There isn't a bottomless pit to go round, so there will always be a need for charities. Give if you want to, don't bother if you don't, but do not spout such idiotic clap trap about members of the Armed Forces being murderers! They are no more murderers than you or I!

I completely agree, got a terrible reaction when I aired this opinion to my friends

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Fri 09-Nov-12 19:38:38

That'll be because you're wrong dino. Sorry.

honeytea Fri 09-Nov-12 19:39:29

I feel like the men and women who die in war and their families are victims of war, but at least their families have homes, healthcare, education. basically loads more than the people in the countries we attack.

I understand there are issues around class and frountline fighting, the doctors and pilots are unlikely to be the ones who die, but all serving members of the armed forces had the choice to go and fight. I have read that around 500 service people have died in Afghanistan, more than 20,000 civilians have died. Ever single one of those deaths is a tragedy, the deaths of brithish people who choose to be there no more or less than the civilians who had the misfortune to be born cought up in a war.

Personally I feel it is wrong to remember the dead Brits without also remebering those innocent people who died at their hands.

I live in a country that has only a peace keeping presence in both Iraq and Afghanistan, I am an immigrant in this country and have spent a lot of time learning the local language with other immigrants. Many of the other immigrants are from Iraq and at times hearing their stories I am sad to say I have felt ashamed that the gouvernment that I voted in have caused such horror in these people's lives. I have known british familes who have tragically lost young members in these recent wars but their situation is a hundred times better than the people who have been displaced and traumatised.

LadyBeagle Fri 09-Nov-12 19:51:18

Just came on to this thread.
What's with all the deletions? Anyway, I bought my poppy today, as I have done for years.
For remembrance, and for my wonderful Grandpa that survived the Somme after getting shot in the leg.
He died when I was about 17, that was the age he was when he fought.
Lest we forget.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 20:03:35

LtEve why do the Army wear their poppies behind their cap badges? DH, and the other serving RAF members I have seen wearing poppies wear them on their jumpers or jackets, I just wonder why the Army do it differently

Hey smile Most RAF and RN wear a different uniform in barracks to 'in the dirt'. Most Army wear combats wherever. Behind the capbadges mean they can continue to be worn wherever we are - I wouldn't want a pin sticking in me if I was crawling thru the mud! It's different for officers as their capbadges are cloth, but then they've always been a different breed smile

At least, that's what I assume - TBH I wear it there because I am told to - I'm very obedient grin grin grin

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 20:18:06

I am not trying to upset people. Honestly. But can someone please tell me why, morally, people who have killed poeple in combat are not murderers. I am pro-choice btw but accept the view of some that abortion is murder. I don't see why this is different.

Sensible answers please. Not, "because I say so".

honeytea Fri 09-Nov-12 20:24:07

I think it is because murder is a legal term. I don't think we can say that they are not killers, it is factual that people who kill other people are killers, in the same way that people who drive are drivers.

The people who kill in combat are following orders so it is not their will that is causing the death.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 20:25:19

To be a murderer you must have killed someone, been prosecuted, been found guilty.

A member of the forces kills only when life is in danger; his own, his comrades or the people he is protecting. It is a form of Self Defence, whether you are defending yourself or your country.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Fri 09-Nov-12 20:27:37

Tutt and LtEve, the Army are scruffy buggers wink

Abra1d Fri 09-Nov-12 20:36:32

ethelb many people accept there is such a thing as a just war. http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/what.shtml

Abra1d Fri 09-Nov-12 20:36:58

Sigh. Here's the link again.
www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/what.shtml

Tuttutitlookslikerain Fri 09-Nov-12 20:37:55

Thank you LtEve. I am chuckling about you saying officers are a different breed. DS1 wants to go to Sandhurst, he is a different breed to everyone I know!

Jenai - the one on the gate was today, he had chocolate all round his chops!hmm

LadyBeagle Fri 09-Nov-12 20:40:42

Well with reference to my post ^ my Grandpa didn't have the choice.
And the German soldier that shot him aimed for his leg, while looking him straight in the eye.
They were all young lads thrust into something they couldn't control.
Hence all my childhood stories from him where he insisted he had a wooden leg, and used to pull out splinters to prove it. I think I believed him for far too many years.grin
WW2 is the war that every man was conscripted too, and the Nazis were defeated,or we would be living in a totally country.
It's these boys and men that make the poppy worthwhile, I don't believe a situation like that will ever happen again.
Because, hopefully, we've learned our lessons, and for one week a year we can remember their sacrifice.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 21:03:56

@ltevedallas thanks for the clarification. It is just the "or the people he is protecting" that bothers me. I don't want it to be "in my name"

@honeytea fair point. But do you really think if OP had come on and said members of the military are 'killerS' everyone would have said 'oh ok then, fair enough'

@abra1d I am a fairly competent theologian and I am aware of just war theory and was taught it repeatedly through my teens. Once at catholic school where we were taught no modern war could be a just war according to the just war rules, and once and an anglican school where I was taught that most British wars fulfilled the criteria. There are different interpretations and as a catholic I err on the side of caution tbh.

weblette Fri 09-Nov-12 21:05:46

So do you not accept that the defence of Belgium and France in WW1 was justified ethelb?

Abra1d Fri 09-Nov-12 21:11:56

Sorry, ethelb, no offence intended but it did seem a bit simplistic when you asked why it wasn't murder if a soldier killed someone so I responded in kind.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 21:45:31

It is just the "or the people he is protecting" that bothers me. I don't want it to be in my name

In Bosnia my job was to protect the Serbs from the Croats from the Muslims and the IFOR and the UNPROFOR and the Aid workers and so on. Everyone was in danger from everyone else. It didn't matter to me who I was protecting, just that I was. I did that in my name, in your name, in the name of every decent person on earth that was against ethnic cleansing and the rape and murder of men, women and children. It didn't bother me who they were.

thebody Fri 09-Nov-12 21:58:31

Isn't mumsnet fantastic? All posters are able to post their views and argue with each other...

Thanks to all the brave soldiers, my great grandad who died in WW2.
If Adolph had prevailed we wouldn't be able to...

Also god bless Robbie, he died at 18 in Afghanistan, he was helping defend the local town where girls were threatened going to school. He was at school with my ds.

Shame in posters who bitch.... Shame on you.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 22:09:08

@weblette as it was silly, imperialistic nonsense. And if people had refuse dto get involved nothing bad would have happened. Only good imo.

@ltEveDallas I'm actually very proud of the peace keeping the UK did in Serbia in my lifetime. Thankyou very much for your work. If this thread had been about the work of UK forces there I would like to think it would have been a very different thread. I went to Croatia for the first time this year, and it is amazing that that part of the world has developed in the way it has, largely due to UN peacekeeping forces.

blobandsnail Fri 09-Nov-12 22:11:22

In my opinion you ANBU. But wear a white poppy instead? Actions speak louder than words, either spoken or posted on an internet forum.

I don't tend to buy a red poppy as I do feel similarly to you, although maybe not quite as strongly. Any life taken is wrong, regardless of how it's taken. I don't support war or really the armed forces, but I respect some of what they try to do. Young lives taken in action are sad, but no more or less sad than a life taken by a murderer knifing a young man on the streets for example. The minutes silence does annoy me though. I believe people being silent about things causes some of the problems of the world, and actually we need to speak up about things that are wrong. I understand it is to remember and respect the dead but isn't it disrespectful to be silent about what caused their death and the deaths of thousands of innocent people in the first place.

alcofrolic Fri 09-Nov-12 22:12:45

I would also not buy a poppy having worked in a company with British Legion affinities in the 80s, and having learnt how poppy money was misused.

Hopefully, this doesn't happen anymore, but I still can't quite bring myself to put the money in the box.

Sorry.

LtEveDallas Fri 09-Nov-12 22:26:06

I'm actually very proud of the peace keeping the UK did in Serbia in my lifetime. Thankyou very much for your work. If this thread had been about the work of UK forces there I would like to think it would have been a very different thread. I went to Croatia for the first time this year, and it is amazing that that part of the world has developed in the way it has, largely due to UN peacekeeping forces

So Ethel, your issue is what, exactly? Same Army, same soldiers, same views. I was in Bosnia with IFOR, after the UN had 'given up'. The reason it calmed down enough to bring the warring factions together, to work towards the peace they have now, and the freedom they have now was that as a UN Force the Mil can't 'fight back' they have to be impartial - people were being killed in front of the UN soldiers and inspectors and they couldn't do a damn thing about it.

When we finally wore our own berets and carried our own weapons, made ready, the murdering bastards on all sides realised we were serious, and that they had to give mediation a try.

I was there for the first elections. I was in the middle, literally, of a riot and saw what they did to each other. I lived with females who had been brutalised, and didn't want peace - they wanted their attackers dead.

There is peace now, but ONLY thanks to IFOR. We made it safe for the UN to work. Peace comes at a price. The UN Peacekeeping Force is worthless without a Protection Force to back it up.

Kosovo didn't run as long as Bosnia because KFOR went in FIRST. If we had done that in Bosnia thousands more would have been saved.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 22:30:39

no not same views. Completely different wars and different views. UK were there as part of peace keeping forces.

They weren't for ww1, wwii, Iraq 1 and 2 and Afganistand and Falklands. Its v different.

ShiftyFades Fri 09-Nov-12 23:03:55

Thank you armed forces, past and present. You do a grand job.
My poppy is worn with pride.
I was reading, only today, about the new bridge that has been built in Afghanistan which will be a massive help to the locals it serves.
Sadly, I read this story on Defence Intranet, not in a tabloid, so most won't even know of the great work our forces are doing to make their lives better after years of suppression from the Taliban.

But I digress, thank you to my colleagues and heartfelt thanks to Grandad, who died just 1 year ago this week and was never able to talk about WW2 sad
Thanks also to my Dad who saved some villagers somewhere remote whilst being shot at. Thanks to DH for his services too.

<apologies for the vague bits wink>

GhostShip Fri 09-Nov-12 23:10:31

The people complaining, you wouldn't be sat there on your computers or smart phones right now if it weren't for these people. The same people you're so against honouring. You make me sick. They sacrificed their childhoods, their sanity, their limbs, their families, their nerves, and in a lot of cases: their lives. How dare you not respect them.

weblette Fri 09-Nov-12 23:22:25

Ethelb as you very obviously have absolutely no idea of actual history and no appropriate answer I have no hesitation in ignoring your obviously inflammatory posts. Theorising about a just war is, I'm sure for you, a lovely intellectual exercise.
My father in law was a committed Catholic. When he found himself in the midst of WW2 he had no hesitation in acting against what he felt was the far greater evil. The things he saw and endured caused him and his family immense harm, none of them would have said no, don't get involved.

ethelb Fri 09-Nov-12 23:44:43

@weblette please do tell me about your "actual history" based on what you heard from your father in law. I'm sure it is really really valuable.

weblette Fri 09-Nov-12 23:58:21

Since he's well dead I doubt it. Save your patronising shite for some one else.
Pretty much every history book would have the Kaiser deciding to invade the neutral Belgium en route to occupying France contrary to the declared support of Britain I would hesitate to see how the UK were warmongering in that circumstance.
Or was Versailes just a teeny mistake in your view.

weblette Sat 10-Nov-12 00:06:14

Ethel I'll leave you to your wonderfully conceptual and utopian high ground. I'm not sure which precise bit of Catholic teaching you seem to be basing your views on.
Meanwhile in the real world people are remembering others who thought back in the early 1900s there was something worth fighting for. And people in the 40s who decided that the evil of Nazism was something to be denied and repelled.
If you'd rather they hadn't, that says volumes.

VirginiaDare Sat 10-Nov-12 00:13:43

A member of the forces kills only when life is in danger; his own, his comrades or the people he is protecting. It is a form of Self Defence, whether you are defending yourself or your country.

That may be mostly true, its not always true, is it? The british soldiers that shot unarmed people in the back on Bloody Sunday were not shooting in self defence, were they?
You're going back there to pretending that every single soldier has only noble motives at all times.

StElmo Sat 10-Nov-12 02:09:51

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Overall Rating
Good Bike,January 10, 2012
By HIPPYMUM89 from Scarborough, UK
Quality
Value
Performance
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How many bikes: 1

LtEveDallas Sat 10-Nov-12 06:33:53

That may be mostly true, its not always true, is it? The british soldiers that shot unarmed people in the back on Bloody Sunday were not shooting in self defence, were they

Bloody Sunday was a shameful episode in the British Army's past. The soldiers may well have thought they were in danger, but it does not excuse what they did. I hold the same anger, disgust and disdain against those soldiers as I do the IRA and UVF. I would no more defend what they did then I would the terrorists they IRA.

LtEveDallas Sat 10-Nov-12 06:37:40

Ack ...'than I would the terrorists' (rogue IRA there, sorry)

As poppy petals gently fall
Remember us who gave our all
Not in the mud of foreign lands
Nor buried in the desert sands.

In Ulster field and farm and town,
Fermanagh's lanes and drumlin'd Down
We died that violent death should cease
And Ulstermen might live in peace.

Lest we forget.

onetiredmummy Sat 10-Nov-12 06:50:09

Definition of murder in online dictionary:

Law . the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Whereas 'kill':

to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

So it would appear that they are different, may I use the example of a soldier of the Wermacht killing a Russian soldier on the battlefield in the heat of combat. That is a killing.

The SS in the death camps murdered thousands of Jews. This was murder.

I understand the wish for there to be no war but it is an ideology. Words can only go so far, there comes a point where diplomacy fails & this is where the armed forces enter. Humans have an inbuilt tendency to want to possess & expand, its part of what makes our species so successful. However it also means we wish to take what others possess, as far back as our written & verbal history began there have been dictators & war. Its part of being human in these times & even if peace was widespread & all the peoples of the earth came together to exist side by side in peace & love there would still be armies. Somewhere. Because occasionally we get a Hitler, or a Gengis Khan, or an Alexander the Great & we need a means to suppress them.

Nobody wants war, but it is inevitable because our species is hard wired to start them!

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 09:05:52

What is your point stElmo

ivanapoo Sat 10-Nov-12 09:28:09

Excellent post honeytea on remembering innocent civilians killed in wars too. I believe they deserve equal remembrance especially as they did not choose to participate in war. If the poppy marked both fallen soldiers and civilians I'd feel more comfortable about it - I think this is what the white poppy is for.

On OP's title question - are you unreasonable not to wear a poppy - the answer is no. If people choose to wear a poppy, fine but I really dislike the pressure laid onto people, especially public figures, to wear one. I remember reading that newsbloke Jon Snow received death threats for not wearing one! Which seems ironic given soldiers were fighting for our freedom

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Sat 10-Nov-12 09:41:48

Indeed MrsD. How odd confused

Madmum24 Sat 10-Nov-12 10:14:41

This for obvious reasons is a very emotive subject. All four of my grandparents were active in WWII, one being incapacitated for life. They all played their part in what they believed was an effort to "fight for their country". I am proud of them all. Their emotional scars are still with them today.

However lets not look at war through rose tinted spectacles. We all assume "our side" were the goodies, fighting for their country and doing nothing wrong. But the truth is that nobody goes to war to make friends, every side do what they have to to become the winners. That includes murdering other people shock horror. Whoever feels the need to deny that is the dimwit. Every soldier who goes into war knows that.

What seriously irks me is the disproportion that war comes with. I don't believe that the "war on terror" in Iraq or Afghanistan is about that at all, it is the government trying to monopolize and get its own way in the world. The US allied with Osama bin Laden happily against the former USSR, but suddenly then he became a terrorist when it wasn't in their favour.

The US pay a family in Afghanistan approx $200 for any civilian they murder kill accidently. Why is the price of life there so much cheaper?

I grew up in Northern Ireland where I had many family members who were servicemen. The troubles were always glorified in the sense that "our men" were fighting for our safety. My own Mother was in an explosion that injured her and killed another family member. It was only years later that I realized that the british (ie MY people) were not all the halo wearing heroes. A lot of suffering came from their side too. Families beaten, girls abused etc etc.

So if I wore a poppy (which I don't) it would be to remember ALL fallen soldiers around the world.

BoneyBackJefferson Sat 10-Nov-12 12:28:00

OP

Do you ask the same of the NSPCC?
The pink ribbon?
Macmillan?
cancer awareness?
Movember?

What makes any of these more important?

What makes the the poppy important? That you are even able to ask your question makes it important.

Solopower1 Sat 10-Nov-12 12:50:51

I am tremendously grateful to all the servicemen and women who have died and been injured while trying to protect us and our freedom. My heart breaks for their shortened lives and their families.

But I won't be buying a poppy because I will be continuing to support other charities that try to make the world a better place and remove the causes of war. So charities that help people in developing countries (so that they don't have to migrate or rebel or attack other countries in order to survive); charities that feed, clothe and educate children (so that they grow up with more opportunities to have a better life - and never get so angry and desperate that they feel they have to lash out); and charities that protect the environment so that global warming doesn't cause more droughts and famines in less well-favoured parts of the world.

The battle I want to fight is the one against poverty and inequality and ignorance, which cause those brave servicemen and women to lose their lives in the first place.

And I also vote against governments who invade other people's countries for reasons I disagree with.

DejaB00 Sat 10-Nov-12 13:00:34

hippy I agree with you and well done for being brave enough to speak up cos I have never told anyone, apart from DH.
Fighting is their job and they go into that job knowing what's to come.
And their wives marry them and have their children knowing full well what their job entitles.
dawn you make a good point, but I think the news coverage, poppy appeal and various tv programmes are too much, and the support given to other deserving people pales into insignificance compared to the support given to soldiers and their families.

Solopower1 Sat 10-Nov-12 14:40:33

No, Deja, I think you're wrong about the support given to ex-service people. From what I know, they are not treated well at all by the govt. What more can you ask of someone than that they risk their lives? They should be given everything they need and want, imo, when they are invalided out.

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 16:33:05

Deja
Please explain the support given to ex service personnel
And where we can get it from.

Thank you

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Sat 10-Nov-12 16:47:50

Deja service personnel and their families often do require a huge amount of support. Sadly they don't always get it from the MOD or from the government generally, and that's why people like the RBL are needed. There are shocking levels of homelessness and mental illness among ex-service personnel for a start. There are other things that the RBL do (such as helping veterans visit their comrades' graves overseas) which one could argue aren't essential - but good lord who would begrudge them that?

Yes other groups need support too, but they're not mutually exclusive - as discussed upthread supporting a cancer charity doesn't mean you think people with multiple sclerosis don't deserve help.

The OP isn't being "brave". She just hasn't thought this through.

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 17:00:10

And ex service personnel get multiple sclerosis un funnily enough

Tuttutitlookslikerain Sat 10-Nov-12 17:09:49

Deja If you are a member of the Armed Forces and have a disabled dependant, you may need your married quarter adapted. To get the housing people to even start the ball rolling you need an OT report. Say you are in Scotland and are posted to Cornwall, the Scottish OT will not travel to Cronwall to look at the houses and asses the suitability of wether they can be adapted, and the Cornish OT won't take you on until you get there.

Sometimes, the RBL will step in and pay for an OT to do the assessments, so that a house can be identified, assessed and the adaptations started in as short amount of time as possible.

Another thing they offer is holidays for members of the Armed Forces who have disabled dependants who might not otherwise get a holiday. My friend went on one this year, it was just after her DH got home from a tour of duty and just before she had a massive operation.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Sat 10-Nov-12 17:55:53

Yes but their wives because of course there are no women in the mil knew what the job entails when they married them hmm

Maisycat Sat 10-Nov-12 20:17:23

Apologies for the rambling, but this is a bit close to my heart at the moment.
In some ways their deaths are no more significant than others, but for the fact that those currently serving chose to do so. It is not up to them whether they fight in a politically unpopular conflict, they are merely sent, but they are prepared to give their lives and face dangers so that we don’t have to. So in their way I think that spending a day a year specifically thinking of them and donating some money to a charity to help look after them and their families is a very small gesture.
I had the unpleasant task yesterday of adding the name of one of these young men to the 100+ on our school war memorial. I was grateful that because of the likes of him I could safely return to my family after school. His mum had only memories to return to, his colleagues, a big hole where their friendship had been and his brother a deep blackness that he may never get out of. I don’t grudge them a day and a donation to try and help rebuild shattered lives. I don’t know anyone who wishes for war and conflict, it is a sad human trait; until we can eliminate it we need to be seen to care and to help whether financially or with support those who are brave enough to stand up for the rest of us. Yesterday made me incredibly sad, I feel depressed today, but there no matter how it makes me feel there is no way I am withdrawing my support for his family until they no longer need it.
I have known many veterans of many conflicts, conscripts and volunteers. My father in law, a conscript in ww2 and veteran of the Italy campaign wanted to pay his respects to this young man yesterday, my old soldier now in his 90s is ill it was not possible. His comment was that despite what he knew could happen this lad made the choice to defend our freedoms, and therefore he felt he should pay his respects to this brave soul.
The RBL by the way are helping my father in law overcome his mobility issues at the moment, for which we are very grateful.

MrsBW Sat 10-Nov-12 20:40:44

Good God, there's some bollocks being posted on this thread.

When my husband joined the Army 22 years ago, the only thing on the horizon was Northern Ireland. No one could have predicted back then that Iraq or Afghanistan would happen and he has not long arrived back safely from his fourth tour of the later, thank God.

He doesn't get a choice where he goes. The government sends him. He doesn't get to pick and choose although yes, he could leave the Army (unlike those in WW1 and WW2). Mind you... Not many would walk away from a career so close to finishing it. Nice to preach from on high when you are never faced with that decision.

To those of your that call him a murderer... I'm damn sure you don't have military friends that you say that to their face. I know hundreds of forces personnel and their other halves. Not one of them would tolerate being called that.

Do I buy a poppy? You're damn straight I do. There's a story of a soldier in a WW1 trench who slipped and put his hand down to steady himself.... And it went right through the face of his friend who had been lying there, rotting away for weeks. I buy a poppy to remember him, his comrades, those he fought against, those were caught in the crossfire and those who continue to be affected today.

Glorify war? My arse.

Chocolatephiladelphia Sat 10-Nov-12 20:43:13

Jesus, whatever happened to patriotism.

Hippymum89 Sat 10-Nov-12 21:55:58

I haven't read all the replies to this thread, I knew it would ruffle some feathers- I most certainly wasn't picking a fight.
I'm pleased to see I'm not the only one who sees that war=murder (C'mon it may be painful to admit, but they don't play tiddlywinks to see who wins do they?)
I also realise most soldiers don't/didn't join up to kill people - however I do know a few who did....
The fact that everyone on TV is wearing one, it's like a 'club' or something, anyway, others have put it better than me.
I'm signing out now, not because I'm scared of the bullies on here, because I have better things to do. All I'm saying is, cut all the crap, and see it for what it really is. Goodnight.

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 21:59:24

I think
If you are going to write such a provocative OP
That you
Should have
The courage
To read the replies.

Calling 'bully' is a cop out and cowardly.

If you cant take it, do yourself a favour and dont dish it out.

Hippymum89 Sat 10-Nov-12 22:00:12

StElmo - what's with the weird stalking stuff???!!!
And does it prove anything about me? I don't get it?! confused
Great bike by the way......... wink

Sirzy Sat 10-Nov-12 22:00:51

I see it for what it is. A mark of respect for people who gave up everything for their country.

Hippymum89 Sat 10-Nov-12 22:03:45

MrsBW your husband does have a choice. It is his JOB, he gets paid for it.
My ex was a squaddie, I'm not as clueless as you all seem to think. Open your eyes!

Hippymum89 Sat 10-Nov-12 22:05:24

Name calling, swearing... that's being nice?, having a grown-up discussion?
Not where I come from which you all know now anyway grin

LtEveDallas Sat 10-Nov-12 22:06:50

Ahh the classic bitter ex. OK, explains a lot. Well done.

Hippymum89 Sat 10-Nov-12 22:10:09

,,,no, not really. I WAS A SQUADDIE TOO!!!! shock for 8 years!!
Joined at 18 when I thought all the stuff you guys think
Then I grew up
Now I really make a difference

Sirzy Sat 10-Nov-12 22:11:40

Wow this takes drip feeding to the extreme!

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sat 10-Nov-12 22:13:49

How ignorant and small-minded you are, OP. You wanted to start a bun-fight but you lack the wit, quite frankly.

Buy a poppy, don't buy one - who cares what you do. I don't. I care about the poppy appeal very deeply and wonder at the incredible sacrifices made by others for everybody.

Lest we forget, indeed.

ShellyBoobs Sat 10-Nov-12 22:16:58

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

LtEveDallas Sat 10-Nov-12 22:18:21

A soldier for 8 years but you get upset by 'name calling and swearing' - yeah, pull the other one love.

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 22:19:20

Your need for attention is pathological isn't it?

MsElleTow Sat 10-Nov-12 22:20:06

I don't believe you were a soldier!

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 22:21:40

And you have NO idea what I think.
What do I think?

Apart from that you started this thread to cause a fight. Sat back and read every single response with glee.
Came back and pretended you hadnt
Whinged about being bullied
Then added a bit more info for added effect.

Oh and you are too fond of the strikeout function

Hippymum89 Sat 10-Nov-12 22:21:49

No no no, you bright young things, I couldn't give a flying proverbial about what you say/think/do towards me
You would all have kissed my feet by the look of it a few years ago
hey ho, that's the way it goes

MrsDeVere Sat 10-Nov-12 22:23:09

I am 45
I hate the army

Sorry to fuck up your badly thought out theory.

LtEveDallas Sat 10-Nov-12 22:23:20

Kissed your feet? What the fuck are you talking about?

MsElleTow Sat 10-Nov-12 22:23:58

Why would anyone have kissed your feet?

XBenedict Sat 10-Nov-12 22:24:33

Eh? confused

topknob Sat 10-Nov-12 22:26:08

I buy a poppy to say thanks to all those all gave their lives so I am now not speaking German...my 10 yr old ASD son is taking part in our Parade tomorrow, I will be so proud of him and WILL remember those who aren't here anymore, which includes both of my grandads.

LtEveDallas Sat 10-Nov-12 22:37:39

Shes a 'Nurse Mentor' (I don't know what that is), but why that would have made anyone kiss her feet, I don't know.

I think she made an ill thought out and offensive OP, but didn't have the 'capacity' to further argue her point. If she had taken the time to read some of the posts, she may have learned something. She has failed to do so, so, meh,<<shrugs>> you can't educate pork.

Well my shoes are bulled, my uniform ironed, my poppy front and centre. I shall go to church tomorrow and Remember those who died, those who suffer and those who are well.

At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we will Remember them

MsElleTow Sat 10-Nov-12 22:45:54

I'm watching the Festival of Remembrance with tears in my eyes.

Almostfifty Sat 10-Nov-12 22:47:05

Me too Ms, every year it gets to me.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sat 10-Nov-12 22:50:15

Ugh, you're creepy, OP. I too think you've been avidly reading the replies on this thread. How attention-seeking you are.

I don't believe you were a soldier either. If by the slightest chance you had anything to do with the armed forces, show a little dignity and respect.

MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sat 10-Nov-12 22:51:04

I am not British.
I'm Northern Irish Catholic..

Dead right I'll be buying a poppy. One every day.
I'm not patriotic for England or the British. In fact I am extremely partisan in my (Irish) nationalistic views (without violence).

I have seen war at short distance in my homeland. (Northern Ireland)
I have suffered very near and very personal... and I've seen many others suffer.

The army (in my view) is a home for many young men, who don't have a lot of prospects and have no-where to go. The army recruits them and turns them into cannon fodder. It keeps down the young men on the streets and it reduces unemployment amongst the most potentially criminal age group (17 - 24). Once they've got them, they've got them by the balls (metaphorically, the same applies to the young female recruits).

Governments use the forces to control the youth work force.
Where there is a world wide recession (as there is now); governments channel youth into the forces.
Simply it keeps them off the streets, when there's bugger all else in prospect... and it's a controlled cost and a budget.

They grab a prospect of a descent life in their hands. They take the Queen's shilling but they could do so much worse. They could do nothing; sit on their arses claiming un-employment benefit.

Hippymum89; I'm a really old hippy chick. I don't remember a lot of the late 60's or anything much up until about 1979.

All war is wrong and unreasonable. I knew it in 1969; and I understand it even better in 2012.
Dying is no better now then it was back then.

The army kicks people out when they've had their use of them; and they're no longer of use.
These people have little emotional or physical support subsequently.
Forget the politics or the war that they were fighting..

XBenedict Sat 10-Nov-12 22:53:56

Errrrr...........I am also a nurse with the mentor qualification (ex PMRAFNS) struggling to work out why anyone would want kiss my, her or any other nurse, (mentor or otherwise) feet.

solvendie Sat 10-Nov-12 22:59:02

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them
thanks

Geoffcrapinthehead Sat 10-Nov-12 23:00:44

This is a ridiculous post to be honest. Does the OP enjoy the vote, the ability to leave the country as they see fit to go on holiday to other free countries? I would imagine the answer is yes. The poppy is worn as a symbol of rememberance of ALL those who have given their lives to make this and other nations free from oppression and to give you all today the liberties and freedoms you enjoy, which clearly the OP takes for granted. War is human nature, it exists in all walks of life and has affected EVERY country at some point of its history. Whilst I, as someone who served the country and Government for 15 years, do not condone needless conflict, the fact that men and women throughout our nations history have laid down their lives to give you these freedoms is worthy of just 2 minutes a year of your respect and rememberance. If you have never known or met anybody whose life has been affected by conflict, I would imagine it is relatively easy to stand there and pretend that it is not a big deal. Let me tell you hands down, there is no love greater than somebody giving up their life to protect yours! Not a single one of those who gave their lives the or now, knew you OP or ever would, but they made this sacrifice all the same. "Lest we forget" says it all, the reason, so many choose on this day to wear a poppy with pride is to remember those who fought so that you didn't have to. God help us all if you ever got your way OP and the nation forgot the purpose of a small charitable donation once a year. I will be standing tall and proud, medals polished and displayed with the rest of the civilised folk of this nation who understand what these people have done and continue to do on a daily basis, show some pride and respect and buy a bloody poppy you tight, ungrateful sod!

LadyBeagle Sat 10-Nov-12 23:07:49

I'm 56 and when I was a child we as a family always watched the Remembrance service.
Obvously I've had a life since then, but when I catch it and see the poppies falling into a sea of silence it still brings tears to my eyes.

OliviaMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 10-Nov-12 23:20:04

Good evening everyone
Quick link to our guidelines
Thanks all

MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sat 10-Nov-12 23:31:40

I had read the posts and had then forgotten your original post, and posted a very political tirade; so sorry OP.
May I now answer succinctly:

Why should their death be different from any other ?
One simple answer. Courage
Every time; Every Day they wake up; they have an inherent liability to die in the course of the day.

I am now married to an English Protestant. His Father, Grandfather and Great Grandfather went to war in WW1 and WW2. My relatives from these eras also joined up, but were low rank and didn't leave journals and are dead.
I have read the "war journals" of my in laws.

I live with death every day now. My blood pressure; my cholesterol. But I don't face it's very ultimate potential everyday.

I don't take off in a Bi-Plane to meet the Nazi airforce; with a 20% of return.

It's courage that is the difference. All of us die.
But the armed forces meet the potential for death everyday.
Whether you agree with the war or not.

MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sat 10-Nov-12 23:57:01

I hope you will come back Op.
It's so very easy to "take a stance" .
I've taken many in my time, some right, some wrong
The clue is to listen, assimilate and revise (if required).
The real maturity rests in hearing/listening in the first place.
There's no shame in then revising. Absolutely none.
It's what intelligent people do all the time.

I am not for the first moment suggesting that you are immature; but the great value of this site is to give opinions. The majority in response to your post is negative. That's tough.
I hope you read through to the end.
I wish you well.

fragola Sun 11-Nov-12 00:37:22

It's late, I've had a few wines, so I'm sorry if I'm not that articulate.

I’ve spent time in British legion homes with people who wear gloves to cover up that they’ve had their finger nails ripped out, with people who have had half of their faces shot off. They were young men when this happened to them, young men who had no choice but to serve their country. But they did and we benefit from that today.

From when I was a small child I put poppies on the graves of the fallen soldier in the churchyard across from my house. Very few of them were over the age of 25, most of them were under 20. It broke my heart then and it breaks my heart now. I wore a poppy then to remember their loss and I'll continue to wear one.

If you don’t want to buy a poppy, that is absolutely your choice, but no need to be smug about it.

MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sun 11-Nov-12 02:10:27

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKYG2_OlNTQ

MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sun 11-Nov-12 02:18:13

You have to paste that link above. I think it's relevant to all. I'm not brilliant at computers

MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sun 11-Nov-12 02:21:25
MyUmbrageIsSafeInMyKnickers Sun 11-Nov-12 02:57:49

Managed the link.

It's still relevant.

The Poppy is not about Politics. It's about Men and Women that serve their country with no question.

honeytea Sun 11-Nov-12 10:41:14

It's about Men and Women that serve their country with no question

It is the no question that worries me, if a child hits another child and said "I did it because bob told me to" the parent/teacher would say "you make your own decisions, don't just do what other people tell you to do" or as my mother would say "if bob told you to jump of a cliff would you?"

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 11-Nov-12 11:35:54

honeytea thing is sometimes "your own decisions" and indeed,opinions can make one look a bit of a fool on occasion. Such as now.

Poppies are commemorating those who fought for their country not a statement of how fabulous war was. Surely if everyone thought wars were great,there would be no need to commemorate and pay respect to these men and women because it would have been no big deal that they had fought in a war.

ConferencePear Sun 11-Nov-12 11:43:19

I will try to explain why wear my poppy.
I have researched my family history and in every generation right back to the Crimean War there are soldiers. Today, during the two-minute silence, I thought particularly about my mother's cousin and his wife. During the Second World War he somehow found himself quite badly injured in a hospital run by Belgian nuns. He pretended to be mute in order not to reveal he was British. Meanwhile, back in England, his wife had been told he was dead and was adjusting to life as a widow. They had a difficult time readjusting to reality when the war ended. Not a tale of heroism or glory just the way quite ordinary men and women were affected.
I don't think of the glory of war, or who won or lost, I just think of the many thousands of ordinary people who were caught up in it on all sides.
I wear my poppy because of the pity of it all.

WeatherWitch Sun 11-Nov-12 12:12:44

OP - if you were a soldier, then I'm slightly surprised that you choose not to remember those that you served with and have fallen, because in 8 years of service it is pretty unlikely that nobody you joined up with or served with hasn't been killed or injured. Regardless of your views on war, surely they deserve two minutes of your time to pause and reflect that you walked away and they didn't?

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar Sun 11-Nov-12 12:16:44

There's no way the OP is ex-forces. But if she is, it makes her position even harder to understand.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 11-Nov-12 12:25:46

I've only just clocked the OP's post saying she's ex-forces. I don't believe it either. Or if it is true,she got booted out and has an axe to grind. Or maybe she is just a bitter woman with an ex in the forces.

Rememberance Day isn't about how much you like the Army,Navy or RAF.

My Grandfather was in the Army for 40 years. They treated him fucking terribly in the end. Really badly. I don't think he ever really got over it. But that sadness never got in the way of respecting and commemorating his fellow servicemen on Rememberance Day.

ladymariner Sun 11-Nov-12 12:44:16

I wear my poppy with pride to show respect for our Armed Forces past and present, and the sacrifices they have made to allow us the freedom we have today.
Whatever your views are about war in general the poppy is there to show respect, not to glorify it or push your views.

Op, your post has made me sick. You disgust me.

financialwizard Sun 11-Nov-12 13:08:23

You know, OP, your attitude does not surprise me.

All I ask is that you look up why many people wear their poppies with pride.

Everyone has a right to choose which charity to support.

financialwizard Sun 11-Nov-12 13:11:39

Before I get shot down, I do wear a Poppy. I do go to Remembrance. My family is military, my father was a military man, his father, my mothers father.

If the OP is ex-military then I retract my statement that her attitude doesn't surprise me. It does now.

I hope you never lose anyone you love the way that I have OP, I really do.

icetip Sun 11-Nov-12 13:24:30

I stood this morning in a supermarket at 11 and thought about the many people who'd suffered, many who had no choice or probably didn't fully understand why they were asked to do what they did. I do not understand how anyone can't summon up even a shred of empathy or sadness when confronted with these realities. But every year I have a problem. I grew up on the Falls Road in Belfast during the height of the Troubles. I hated the place. I hated the sectarianism and hatred that seeped through society. I was so glad to leave it behind 25 years ago and make a new and better life elsewhere. But we are all products of our experience and there are things I can't forget. Like the time I was deliberately slammed off my bike by an army jeep, dislocating my shoulder, for having the audacity to be cycling home. Or the countless occasions when I was called a Fenian bastard or fucker or cunt when I was stopped by a foot patrol to be questioned about my movements. Or every time I see my friend Eamon, a harmless lad who like me had no time for the IRA or any of that shit, who was set upon one night on his way home from a pub by four soldiers who beat him almost to death, hitting him with the butts of their rifles, kicking his head in with their army boots, leaving him brain-damaged. No prosecution ever. So every year I have a problem buying a poppy, because it might support them. We should respect those who've suffered, but please don't feel that not buying a poppy is always disrespectful. Life's never simple.

Solopower1 Sun 11-Nov-12 14:28:33

Lest we forget, Icetip.

It's so sad that otherwise normal human beings can be brutalised this way, by war and fear and hatred. No doubt these soldiers had it in them to be brave and self-sacrificing in war - so why such violent, vindictive bullies in occupation?

Someone at some point has to break the cycle.

ArmyOfPenguins Sun 11-Nov-12 14:33:01

Soldiers may well have to kill in the line of duty, but they don't have to rape do they? But they do, in huge, huge numbers. Including rape of their own female colleagues.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 11-Nov-12 14:37:09

I'd like some proof that "huge huge" numbers of soldiers are rapists ArmyofPenguins

Btw today isn't just about those in the army and commemorating them.uts about all the war dead and veterans. That'll include the Navy and the RAF.

ArmyOfPenguins Sun 11-Nov-12 14:40:54
ArmyOfPenguins Sun 11-Nov-12 14:43:38
Alisvolatpropiis Sun 11-Nov-12 14:48:52

One of those links no longer works.

There is no evidence that the allegations on the Tehran Times forum is anything other than allegations. Accused not convicted. Plus I'm not convinced news from Iran is exactly reliable.

The daily mail ones are about isolated incidents.

So...no you can't provide any evidence that a huge number of British soliders are rapists.

bureni Sun 11-Nov-12 15:02:30

This year is more important to me than most others since it is the centenary of the RBL and the 30th anniversary of the Falklands war. Closer to home this year is the 25th anniversary of the Enniskillen massacre when Irish terrorists planted a bomb at the Remembrance Sunday ceremony in 1987 and earlier this week I attended the funeral of a young woman killed in Afghanistan a fortnight ago, whether or not you agree with the politics that put the soldiers there is one thing but I feel it is everyones duty to support our troops regardless of the politics involved.

Solopower1 Sun 11-Nov-12 15:02:46

Please don't go down this route! The vast majority of service men and women are decent human beings, just like the vast majority of celebrities are not paedophiles ... The vast majority of any profession are just doing their jobs.

War brings out both the worst and the best in people.

ArmyOfPenguins Sun 11-Nov-12 15:02:53

Well that was just the first page of a google search - apologies for lazy linking. However, it cannot be denied that rape is used as a weapon of war and always has been. It's well documented. The soldiers doing the raping were demonstrably not stopped by their colleagues, so I cannot see most of them as innocents and heroes.
Sorry about that. I would wear a poppy if there was also some sort of symbol to remember that there's an ongoing war on women.

Alisvolatpropiis Sun 11-Nov-12 15:08:32

Yes it was lazy linking and served only to prove you cannot back up your claim that huge numbers of soldiers are rapists.

Oh please "war on women". Pull the other one.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sun 11-Nov-12 15:21:42

YABU. Those soldiers died for other people's agendas. And they deserved to live.
YABVU.

ZombiesAreClammyDodgers Sun 11-Nov-12 15:23:38

And it's lovely to navel gaze in peace time but if we had been in a state of war bet no one would be agonising about this.

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