To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace?

(1000 Posts)
Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:11:14

Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

gordyslovesheep Fri 02-Nov-12 21:18:31

because bad people exist in all communities - 2 women a week die in the UK as a result of domestic abuse

lovebunny Fri 02-Nov-12 21:20:18

i don't know whether to answer or just ignore because i think its a mischievous thread.
i'll go with 'answer'.

i think people are very conscious of the family's reputation. if a family member brings shame, and the rest of the family do nothing about it, that brings more shame. the only way to cleanse the reputation is to punish the wrongdoer.

this doesn't just happen in Islam. Sikhs and Hindus have also been in the news for it. and didn't Christian girls get bricked up in the walls of their homes, in the past? i'm sure i've heard of that. not to mention the ones more recently put into mental homes and the 'care' of nuns for having relationships of which their families didn't approve, or for having babies out of wedlock.

TeaBrick Fri 02-Nov-12 21:20:18

All religions preach peace, but murders happen everywhere. People kill their own children in this country too, maybe not for the same reasons, but they still do.

gordyslovesheep Fri 02-Nov-12 21:21:32

Lovebunny I felt that as well hmm

kim147 Fri 02-Nov-12 21:21:45

And 1 child a week on average is killed by their parents in the UK.

It's awful - there was a story about a father who was "so ashamed" his daughter was raped that he killed himself because "she brought shame" on the family. This was in rural India - but not Islam.

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:28:24

No, I'm not being mischievous. It is a genuine post.

chunkymunk Fri 02-Nov-12 21:30:32

In my opinion this is cultural, not Islamic. However the lines are blurred.

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:31:23

I'm not trying to trick anyone into saying anything politically incorrect, I just wonder how the feeling of shame (or what other people think) can be so strong that someone would kill their own child because of it.

For the same reason that Christians have committed atrocities against other Christians (and everyone else) despite the fact that the New Testament is lovey dovey; bad people will do bad things and they will always find a way to interpret their Holy Books in a way that justifies what they do. This is not a problem specific to Islam, this is a problem specific to the human race.

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:32:21

I agree it is probably more cultural, although as you said, the lines are blurred

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:35:23

But this is presumably mentally sound families killing their own children because their children have embarrassed them.

I doubt anyone who kills their child because they've embarrassed them is 'mentally sound'.

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:38:59

I doubt anyone who kills their child because they've embarrassed them is 'mentally sound'

So do you think their religion /culture has driven them to insanity?

gordyslovesheep Fri 02-Nov-12 21:42:11

there is usually a history of domestic abuse and control in families that do this though - they are not nice, normal families - they are dominated be people who want those within to do as they say and behave - and they will use violence to achieve that

it's really not as simple as 'I am ashamed so I will kill you'

aldiwhore Fri 02-Nov-12 21:44:41

Well people murder people in the UK for no reason whatsoever even though our laws say it's wrong.

What is your point?

YANBU to think it crazy that people kill people despite knowing it's wrong.

YABU to think only Muslims do it.

People kill people, sometimes for some misguided honour (No, I don't get that at all) sometimes because they looked at them funny in a bar (don't get that either).

I think it can drive people make insane, stupid and unreasonable decisions - I don't think it makes them insane. Being mentally unstable does not automatically equal being insane.

WorraLiberty Fri 02-Nov-12 21:50:45

It's cultural, it's barbaric and it has to stop.

That's it really.

You can bring up all sorts of other statistics about other people being killed etc...but to stay on topic honour killings are wrong and I'm glad the perpetrators are being caught and imprisoned.

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:51:26

aldiwhore - yes of course I realise this, but my point is that these are family members killing their own children because they have brought shame to their family

maddening Fri 02-Nov-12 21:51:30

I think it's not that it's any person but how could you do that to your own child. Yes people kill their own children all over the world for many other reasons but there's usually something badly wrong in those parents' thinking e.g. psychosis, major personaility disorders and severe mh problems - but in a sane person doing it for embarrassments sake is something I'm sure all of us cannot comprehend.

Mooblies Fri 02-Nov-12 21:55:47

I am not being mischievous and of course I don't think that all muslims are potential 'honour killers'.

I am just wondering what can drive a family to kill their own children because they are worried what other people will think of their 'shameful' act.

gordyslovesheep Fri 02-Nov-12 21:57:04

Worra has a point though

the whole family doesn;t kill btw - usually one person does and the family cover it up

SoleSource Fri 02-Nov-12 22:18:00

Yanbu poor Banaz (sp?)

Softlysoftly Fri 02-Nov-12 22:25:47

Because they misuse their religion, corrupt it, twist it and use it to control. The culture is all about honour, the religion is not.

Those individuals with a propensity to violence and control issues commit killings they dub "honour" but are actually lashing out at someone who they can't control.

In the UK (a nominally Christian country) men kill wives and children (some women do too) who won't do as they are told, because we are less religious they are called "DV murders" and can be treated as individual cases. It's all about semantics.

And they are all bastards.

lovebunny Fri 02-Nov-12 22:32:08

the New Testament is lovey dovey
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
Matthew 10:34-36

LimeLeafLizard Fri 02-Nov-12 22:41:27

Have you looked for any books on this subject? MN seems a strange place to 'research' something like this. A poster's first guess answer is unlikely to be accurate.

Alisvolatpropiis Fri 02-Nov-12 23:21:41

I was under the belief that honour killings are a cultural rather than religious thing. As in,Spain and France may both be Catholic country's but have different cultural norms?

I think re Muslims and honour killings taking place in the UK it may be partly to do with the massive struggle that must go on between immigrant parents wanting their children to integrate but also retain their forefathers culture. But that's just my own hotchpotch theory about UK honour killings

Regardless of the culture,nationality or religion of the people who carry out honour killings,they are utterly despicable. In my personal opinion.

Katiekitty Fri 02-Nov-12 23:22:34

Just wondering - are these murders often known as 'honour killings' also applied to men?

I only hear of women or girls being murdered in such a way. Not men or boys, only women.

Anyone got a view on this?

suburbophobe Fri 02-Nov-12 23:32:10

Yes, I've heard of young men having to flee their families into a refuge because of refusing an arranged marriage (not in UK though, but I'm sure it happens).

lovebunny Sat 03-Nov-12 00:01:04

some men are killed and some do go into hiding. sometimes that's because families are due to receive large sums of money from the bride's parents, and if the boy refuses, it shames everyone and the money is lost.
the partners of women in 'honour' situations are sometimes killed.

CrikeyOHare Sat 03-Nov-12 00:04:09

Paraphrased: "Good people will do good things. Evil people will do evil things. But for good people to do evil things - that takes religion". (Stephen Weinberg).

That's why.

ClippedPhoenix Sat 03-Nov-12 00:06:18

Because religion is man made for men.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 00:09:24

because it is more to do with culture than religion but can use religion or what they believe to be Islam to justify it

ElaineBenes Sat 03-Nov-12 03:08:28

It's cultural.

You get 'honor' killings among Arab Christians but not Indonesian Muslims for example.

missingmumxox Sat 03-Nov-12 03:59:03

cultural, and weak parents, some people whatever their religion will weather the storm and protect their children.
your question is like arranged marrages in islam is wrong! why? and not actually realising it is cultural, I have 3 friends who went through the whole "arranged marrages custom" 1 Muslim, 1 Christian and 1 Jewish, and having gone through it with them from the get go, my Muslim friend eventually got married at 37 after 15 years from him qualifing as a doctor and "matches" his chose his wife from the years of women he met and dated with chaperons, who he said did what he did with his sisters which was drive them to venue sit well away from couple and drive her home when she told them too which also included get me away from this person, Christian friend "shush she married for love...10 years later she told her parents, she lives in the USA" but one of her suiters she passed up on she mentioned to her parents would be great for her sister and her sister is married now to him and a happy bunny.
my Jewish friend withdrew from the process completely, never married and is now unfortunatly dead at 42, so we will never know where his story would have ended.
I prefer the idea of rather than arranged marrage, assisted marrage.
so honour killings are nothing of the sort they are weak people, in an odd way I think they do love their children in the main, but not too the exclusion of all others.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 04:23:56

When a man's standing in his religious community depends on the chastity of his daughters, and his standing in his religious community is all he cares about, because there is no other community and he has not other way of establishing his standing -- the whole place is dominated by this one focus on religion and all are uneducated and misogynistic -- then unfortunately it is a tough lookout for the daughters.

There is no such thing as 'Islam preaches'. It is not a centrally organised religion. You can choose whatever aspect of Islam you want to focus on. Some choose jihad and pray daily. Some choose making sure women do not go out in public unless covered head to toe and pray daily. Some shrug about what women wear, live happily in the west or the mid east, and pray daily.

TanteRose Sat 03-Nov-12 04:42:30

Note also that honour killings are almost unheard of in the world's largest Muslim country, Indonesia. Nor in Malayasia.

dolcelatte Sat 03-Nov-12 05:25:56

I dislike the phrase 'honour killing' to describe murder; the phrase seeks to justify the unjustifiable.

It is true that no religion has the monopoly on psychopaths and nutters, but we cannot allow these people to rely upon dubious religious tenets to justify criminal offences. One of the best things about the UK is its diversity and tolerance, but we must not allow this to cloud our judgment in failing to condemn actions which are morally wrong.

Women still get a shitty deal in a number of countries - think of the poor girl who was almost murdered recently just for wanting an education.

Valdeeves Sat 03-Nov-12 05:34:39

Softly softly has in it in the bag - I agree

Madmum24 Sat 03-Nov-12 07:44:38

Interestingly (but horrifying obviously!) when i lived in the middle east 95% of honour killings were carried out by christians.
The whole honour killing being synonomous with islam is anti moooozlem propoganda mostly from DM if you ask me.
Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, killing anyone let alone your child is forbidden.

Orangelephantshavewrinkles Sat 03-Nov-12 08:06:44

Throughout history as far back as records go there has always been killings in the name of God.

anewyear Sat 03-Nov-12 08:09:51

Quote 'Because they misuse their religion, corrupt it, twist it and use it to control'

Got it in one

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 08:28:52

I think this is an inflammatory thread too.

Honour killings don't happen just in Islam as others have stated above. The ones that do happen are often due to cultural pressure. A lot of people who murder their children in the name of honour are uneducated immigrants who think children must obey their parents at all costs. They come from their home country with a specific ideology about traditions, unbeknown to them, their country moves with the times and arranged marriages become more about the children choosing their own partners but these people are still stuck in a time warp.

One could argue how the Catholic Church allowed so many young boys to be abused, even though they preach peace and love. The fact is, bad people exist everywhere. Writing about Muslims killing their children sells newspapers and makes money, as it is the current religion that is being targeted by the world, just like the Jews were 80 odd years ago.

sadie3 Sat 03-Nov-12 08:58:25

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[193]...fight with them...[194]...whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you...

reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord [meaning they are enjoying their 72 virgins in heaven];

There are 164 Jihad Verses in the Koran!

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 09:23:48

It's not a silly thread, perfectly legitimate question to ask. This has been happening quite a lot in recent times, we get so embroiled in being pc, we fail to see what's going on underneath. Similar things happened with forced marriages, it was kept hidden, government/police afraid to tackle it due to sensitivity and pc issues, not wanting to interfere. Now the government agencies are getting involved to tacke it

SucksToBeScaryMe Sat 03-Nov-12 09:35:19

People used to brick up their daughters ???


Nancy66 Sat 03-Nov-12 09:44:57

in the case of honour killings - once a woman has considered to have brought shame on the family she is thought to be worthless - so her life doens't matter.

much the same as suicide bombers convince themselves that murdering innocent people will guarantee them a special place in heaven, some extreme Muslims believe that brutalising and murdering women is the will of god and they will be rewarded.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 10:07:06

These issues do exist, like the FACT that there are a lot aedophiles from the Asian community groom white British girls not ones within their own community. Why is it ok to say things about Christians, in fact any one other than tgroups because its not pc to talk about it. In the news this week was about the death of a little boy who was beaten and killed by his mother for not remembering passages from the koran. I was flamed on here a few months ago because I disagreef with a video that another poster ad linked to where a 2 year old girl was being drilled quite aggressively on Islam.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 10:39:16

These issues do exist we cannot ignore them for the fear of being seen as offending different ethnic groups. That is why I was a bit hmm at lovecats post suggesting tat this is a mischievous thread, why is it? It's a perfectly reasonable observation

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 10:46:04

That was me piglet, arabic sounds aggressive to us and they tend to speak a lot louder there were no signs the little girl was distressed andas I posted on that thread no one questions the hateful and dangerous things many israelie children are taught

we do need to tackle the problem of honour killings and in this country it is mainly connected to the Muslim community but it is not part of Islam a true follower of Islam though many believe themselves to be would not do this. There are many problems is many Muslim countries poverty being the biggest and lack of education. Verses like previously posted can be quoted but read the Koran as a whole and they have a different meaning (as bible verses do). Islam is so often attacked it is creating more of a divide, people cut themselves off more this is why statements like I the title are misleading and dangerous if poster had read the Koran she/he would understand that honour killings are cultural

Mrsjay Sat 03-Nov-12 10:46:21

Honour killings happen in THIS country I don't think it is anything to do with religion more a twisted interpritation (sp) of culture, they want their daughters to do as they are told they demand it and if they don't well ,,,, not islamic people kill their children,

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 10:47:19

Nobody is denying it happens pigletmania, it's just a bit stupid to suggest that it happens only in Islam. If you have a broad range of Muslim friends you would understand that it doesn't happen as frequently as people seem to think. It's just the way it is portrayed in the media.

The video you're talking about is no different to a 2 year old knowing the names of all the dinosaurs after being taught by their parents. Don't see how what harm the girl was doing or what harm her parents were doing.

CecilyP Sat 03-Nov-12 10:48:15

Those individuals with a propensity to violence and control issues commit killings they dub "honour" but are actually lashing out at someone who they can't control.

I assume OP was prompted by the Banaz case, where it was not DV as such, it was not someone lashing out in a fit of uncontrollable temper. The family arranged for 3 cousins to come to their house to kill their daughter, while they went out when the deed was coldbloodedly done.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:02:29

Fakebook the way she was talking to the girl was hmm she was almost shouting. I am sure that if I spoke to my child like that some people would report me to the police. I am not saying all Muslim people are that way, ts the extremists tat do, and who probably drill in religion inthe way shown on the video. Yes there are extremist Christians that do this and I do not agree with it either

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:05:40

We should not be afraid of addressing or discussing issues like ths.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:09:48

Christian fundamentalists especially found in us bible belt have a very warped interpretation of the bible, same as these Islamic extremists who twist the Koran for their wn gain

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 11:13:08

Yes the issue of honour killings does need to be addressed but with recent headlines and the long documented sexual abuse that has gone on within the catholic church would it be right to start a thread asking why do Catholics turn a blind eye or why do the English when their children are being abused we can recognise that it is not do with with being English or being catholic so why can some not see that with Islam

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:17:06

Well Freudian yes there have been threads on here about Catholic abuse much in the same way as this.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:17:29

What'd its seen as ok and fair game.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:19:30

So by can't we discuss honour killings in the islamic community, yes it does happen you cannot say that it does not

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 11:34:40

Really please provide a link

I have seen threads about the abuse being covered up but I have not seen a thread asking why Catholics as a while let the abuse happen

I have not said it does not happen and the problem in this country is mainly connected with some Muslim communities but certainly not all. If I were Muslim I would feel very offended everyday by statements like this that are printed in the media, on social networks. Many Muslims are willing to discuss the problem but as they see it and that is a problem In some communities that happen to be Muslim not because they are Muslim this happens

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 03-Nov-12 11:41:34

Fakebook I don't think this is an inflammatory thread. In the UK the "honour killings" that occur are perpetrated by people who happen to be Muslim. The OP had a genuine question, many of us have said it is more cultural than religious. This isn't a thread bashing people who follow Islam,if anything the majority are being defended.

But surely it is good OP asked? One cannot learn without asking questions.

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 11:42:25

Yes there have been fraud I cannot provide links as I have not got the time to trawl through past threads and I have an I pad so don't know how to link on them. No I am not saying that all Muslims do that of course they don't.

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 11:43:17

A whole community cannot be blamed for abuse and killings. The Catholic Church and all catholics cannot be blamed for what a few of their priests did. Whole muslim communities can't be blamed for honour killings and forced marriages. Ofcourse it should be discussed, and the uk has come a long way protecting victims of forces marriages thanks to discussion and public awareness.

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 11:45:50

There is a huge amount of ignorance about this subject. I agree that this is a cultural issue, not a religious one, but that's not to say that such behaviour is considered normal or acceptable, even in those cultures where it is most prevalent. Quite the contrary, honour killings are deeply frowned upon even within the cultures where they happen most often.

My DH is from a very rural community in a (non-Islamic) culture where "honour killings" are relatively common. Many of the elder members of his family are illiterate, and it is a deeply patriarchal culture in which the movements of women and girls are tightly controlled by their fathers, brothers and husbands. A couple of years ago, my unmarried niece went missing for a few months - the presumption was that she had run away with a boy. This brought great shame on the family and was a source of unimaginable angst for the girl's parents and her extended family. Eventually, she was traced and brought home. She was told in no uncertain terms that she had brought shame and dishonour to the family, but nobody laid a finger on her, and they would not have dreamt of hurting her. At the end of the day, despite their anger, they were relieved to have found her safe and sound, as she was a much loved child and part of the family. I believe that most other families in the community would have reacted in a similar fashion.

People do not kill their children because their religion/culture/society makes them do it. They kill because they are violent, abusive and controlling individuals who lack any moral compass. "Honour" becomes a convenient excuse with which they may justify their crimes to themselves, but for most people in the same communities, such actions are considered to be utterly abhorrent. We should not lose sight of this and fall into the trap of stereotyping whole communities of people as potential killers, as the vast majority no doubt love and cherish their daughters every bit as much as you and I do.

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 11:49:00

Alis, the op's thread title is inflammatory:

To wonder why so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries when Islam preaches peace

To me that title sounds like shit stirring.

Her actual OP:
Also, how could a parent who loves their child consider killing them for honour, or do the people that commit them not really love their children?

can be applied to all murderers who kill their children. How many stories do we read about mothers and fathers killing their children who are not Muslim? Not all of them are mentally unstable. Take baby P as an example.

But you're right. Of course it should be discussed.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 03-Nov-12 11:54:36

fakebook There are groups dedicated to protecting women (and men) from forced marriages. However it is an issue that seems to largely go undiscussed in the media until something tragic happens. You're right that more support is needed.

Of course one cannot blame an entire community for the actions of a few,but I think that is the message on this thread. Nobody has said that all Muslims are responsible for the actions of every other follower of Islam. That would be at best ill thought out.

At the end if the day,people who follow Islam are just that people. Each and every one is different,as with every other person on the planet. Good people,bad people..."Muslim" is not all they are.

One thing I do admire hugely about Muslim communities is how much of a community they really have. I live in an area which is majority Muslim and they certainly have a sense of community that "Christians" haven't had for a very long time. However this is never mentioned in the media except in a negative way,with articles like "not integrating" etc as headlines. It is so unfair that they are demonised at every turn.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 03-Nov-12 11:56:16

Fakebook - I do think that the title should have been worded better,because it does sound exactly how you say it does. I chose to think OP was being genuine,but if she wasn't,then even more reason to get on here and explain how it really is!

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:06:54

I wasn't sure how to word my title, I didn't want to sound like I was trying to start a bunfight.

I just wanted to start a thread about it and get opinions and hopefully some insight.

I find it incredibly disturbing and quite sad that people on mumsnet are reluctant to discuss the problem of honour killings in case they accidentally say something that makes them sound politically incorrect.

I'll say it again, I am not insinuating that all Muslims are potential 'honour killers' or that it's considered 'ok' to do this within Muslim communities.

cantspel Sat 03-Nov-12 12:17:40

Sorry Mooblies but you must have missed the bit in the mn rule book that tells you that you are not allowed to question anything that could show islam in a bad light.

You can can other people cunts, politicans cunts or people who voted for those politicans cunts. You can call priests child abusers and every member of the catholic church an apologists for coving it up.

But you must never touch on fgm, child marriage, honor killings or any form of abuse going on within any islamic culture as that means you must be a racist or antiislamic.

Maybe you could post a thread about your mil wanting you to come to christmas lunch instead?

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 12:20:50

cantspel, people have made the point that "honour killing" is less of an Islamic issue and more of a cultural one. Nobody has said that this subject cannot be discussed. hmm

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:23:56

I might start a thread this evening about why it's taboo to question any negative aspect of Islamic culture, it does seem strange.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:26:06

A bit off thread, but do you think people are more willing to talk about negative aspects of Catholicism?

cantspel Sat 03-Nov-12 12:29:26

But the culture where most practised is an islamic culture.

Yes it does also happen within other religious groups but they also have the same culture as an islamic one.

Mainly being male led where women are under the control of men to be handed from one man ie their father to the control of another man their husband.

Where women are disposable and have no value apart from being chattels of men.

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 12:32:03

You are not getting it it is not a negative aspect of Islamic culture it is a negative aspect within some cultures and some of those cultures happen to be muslim some are christian too

Can you not see the difference

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 12:34:38

<bangs head against wall>

It isn't taboo to discuss negative aspects of Islamic culture, but so-called honour killing is not an aspect of "Islamic culture". As others have already pointed out, it isn't an issue at all in some cultures where Islam is widely practised, whereas it is a significant problem among Muslim and non-Muslim communities in much of south Asia and the middle east.

It's not about avoiding certain topics in order to be pc, it's about using accurate language to discuss the issues.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:34:55
cantspel Sat 03-Nov-12 12:35:45

Mooblies find a news story of a priest acting in any sort of suspect way and post it.

You will then have a thread running to several pages about the wrong doings of perverted priests.

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 12:36:07

X post with Freudian

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 12:40:12

And what is Islamic culture

Muslims from north africa are every different culturally to Muslims from Pakistan, they follow the same religion and that can bring the together but cultures are very different

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:40:41

It's scary to think that in some, if not most cases an education can be all that stands between a parent loving and killing their child

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:43:34

FreudiansSlipper - true, although how would you describe aspects of a culture where Islam/Christian is so deeply intertwined, if not Islamic/Christian culture?

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 12:45:37

OP, I don't believe that a lack of education ever stands in the way of someone loving their own child.

Alisvolatpropiis Sat 03-Nov-12 12:46:49

Moobiles saying honour killing is purely an Islamic practice is like saying paedophilia is purely Catholic one.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:50:45

Alisvolatpropiis - I agree. And by the way I didn't say honour killing is purely an Islamic practice.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 12:51:48

Jinsei - So do you think that someone who commits an honour killing (regardless of religion, culture or level of education) loves their child?

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 12:57:09

No, I don't think they do love their child (at least, not in the sense that I would use the word). But I don't think it's a lack of education to blame. There are plenty of very highly educated men who abuse their wives and/or daughters. And many illiterate peasants who don't.

I just think it's much more complex than to suggest that people commit these crimes because they don't know any better.

Softlysoftly Sat 03-Nov-12 12:57:30

As a Christian married to a Muslim I actually encourage discussion if only to dispel myths!

There are 10-12 recorded incidents of honour related violence in the UK each year (violence not just murders).

There are 2 women killed per week by DV incidences. (just murders violence far far higher).

It's an issue worth discussing but much like "stranger danger" one that is a lot less prevelant than the DM/BNP press would have us believe.

Softlysoftly Sat 03-Nov-12 12:59:43

What I meant to say in the above is, do the 2 per week mean there is an issue with Christian culture? After all we are a christian country?

pigletmania Sat 03-Nov-12 12:59:53

Exactly cantspel I totally agree, it's ok to talk about other groups, Christians, Catholics etc, and a tread title like op in reation to Catholics would be ok but not if is to do with Islam

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 13:02:04

Jinsei - that's a good point, I cited lack of education as someone mentioned it further up the thread. What do you think is to blame or what are the factors?

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 13:07:10

I said lack of education along with poverty is a big problem in my Muslim countries, not that this leads to parents killing their children but it makes them easy targets for fundamental groups such as the Taliban to influence them, they are vulnerable. Islam is not the problem

FreudiansSlipper Sat 03-Nov-12 13:07:47


Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 13:09:10

I don't know enough to say what exactly is to blame, but I think it is primarily about an urge that some men have to exert control over the women around them. We see that need manifested in our own culture in many guises - rape, child abuse, domestic violence etc. In some cultures, it also manifests itself as "honour killing". Why some men have that urge and others don't, I don't really understand, but I don't see honour killing as a unique problem as such, more part of a wider issue of violence and abuse towards women in all cultures.

gordyslovesheep Sat 03-Nov-12 13:10:11

oh stop comparing cheese to campfires

'honour' killing and discussing it is examining the actions of individuals and their reasoning - and wondering if it's motivation cultural, personal or religious

The abuse by Catholic nuns and priests is more about debating the intentional and systematic cover up or widescale abuse by it's employees by a large powerful organisation

the two are not the same

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 13:16:42

Fgm, is NOT an Islamic ritual. This is totally unheard of in Muslim countries outside Africa. Instead of being ignorant please try to understand the difference between religion and culture.

cantspel Sat 03-Nov-12 13:27:21

Fakebook WRONG

Where is FGM Practised?
The majority of cases of FGM are carried out in 28 African countries. In some countries, (e.g. Egypt, Ethiopia, Somalia and Sudan), prevalence rates can be as high as 98 per cent. In other countries, such as Nigeria, Kenya, Togo and Senegal, the prevalence rates vary between 20 and 50 per cent. It is more accurate however, to view FGM as being practised by specific ethnic groups, rather than by a whole country, as communities practising FGM straddle national boundaries. FGM takes place in parts of the Middle East, i.e. in Yemen, Oman, Iraqi Kurdistan, amongst some Bedouin women in Israel, and was also practised by the Ethiopian Jews, and it is unclear whether they continue with the practice now that they are settled in Israel. FGM is also practised among Bohra Muslim populations in parts of India and Pakistan, and amongst Muslim populations in Malaysia and Indonesia.
As a result of immigration and refugee movements, FGM is now being practiced by ethnic minority populations in other parts of the world, such as USA, Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand. FORWARD estimates that as many as 6,500 girls are at risk of FGM within the UK every year.

fgm is a world wide problem and not just an islamic one. Dont fool yourself that is is just a small problem within limit to poor african communities.

Softlysoftly Sat 03-Nov-12 13:31:26

Actually I think the fundamental issue is "preaches peace", Islam isn't like Christianity they don't just trot along on a Sunday weddings and christenings get told Jesus is nice and trot off again, it's intrinsic to life, everything is done in consultation to what is "haram" bad and "halal" good. That consultation is through personal reading/research, an imam, the local community, even tv talk shows. That's why it is wildly varying from place to place and person to person. There is no "church of England, or Catholicism or any organised body.

In that way it can become entangled and confused with culture.

Take the burka, the teachings as I understand them say women and men should dress modestly. For DHs mother that means headscarf, for his sister, long sleeves, for his father a cap. They would never wear or force a burka but the bloke down the road might.

They would never kill a child, but the bloke down the road might....

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 13:34:00

For goodness sake. Getting through to you is obviously very hard. You're absolutely right, with your information and fgm being a world wide problem. It's still NOT an Islamic ritual. It's a cultural one. Islam does not promote fgm. It's not written in the scriptures. It's not mentioned in books. It's not something derived from Islamic teaching. Stop associating bad cultural practises with a whole religion.

thegreylady Sat 03-Nov-12 13:49:09

The 'bricking up' was a punishment in medieval times and was inflicted on fornicating nuns not errant daughters. It isn't helpful to compare this 15th/16th century occasional religious atrocity with 21st century so-called honour killings and whatever statistics you apply to other religions ,and anyone can invent numbers if they don't produce evidence, the killings we hear of here are of Muslim girls by Muslim families and this is indisputably wrong. If your child misbehaves and says " but Johnny and Freddy do that" does that make it right? Of course not.

Softlysoftly Sat 03-Nov-12 13:56:12

Who's inventing numbers grey lady? I'm happy to provide sources for mine!

women's aid

numbers of honour killings

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 14:03:06

Why is there a disproportionate amount of abuse of women in many Muslim countries? Yes of course it happens everywhere, I think India holds the number spot worldwide at the moment... It does seem that women in many African and Middle Eastern Muslim countries fare worse than say Buddhist or Christian countries, why is this if nothing to do with religion? It does seem a coincidence.

lovebunny Sat 03-Nov-12 14:13:17

who says there is a disproportionate amount of abuse of women in many Muslim countries? where is the evidence? where are the comparative studies on abuse of women in nominally-Christian and Muslim countries?

GrrrArghZzzz Sat 03-Nov-12 14:19:52

Discussing "honour killings" within Islamic culture is valid.

However, framing it as an Islamic issue within Islamic countries is ridiculous and ethnocentric. Within many mainly Islamic countries, particularly in Southwest Asia, it is viewed as a mainly Christian issue (as has already been mentioned in this thread). In other areas it is seen as a Hindu issue. Actually, I've only ever seen it phrased as an Islamic issue within British and American media.

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 14:21:50

Yes, I'd like to see some stats, as I'm not sure if it's true that muslim women are subjected to greater levels of violencethan women from other faiths. Anyway, OP, if India tops the table, that somewhat undermines your argument, doesn't it? Of course, there is a sizeable Muslim population there but they're still a minority and certainly can't account for all of the abuse against women in India.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 14:35:37
Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 14:43:33

The World Economic Forum last week distributed its annual Global Gender Gap Report, a review of how 134 countries have succeeded in closing gaps between women and men in four areas – economic participation and opportunity, educational attainment, political empowerment and health and survival.

While some non-Muslim countries do poorly, the vast majority of the worst-scoring countries are Islamic, most of them Arab states.

Seventeen of the 20 countries at the bottom of the gender gap scale are Islamic – Lebanon (placed at 116), Qatar (117), Nigeria (118), Algeria (119), Jordan (120), Oman (122), Iran (123), Syria (124), Egypt (125), Turkey (126), Morocco (127), Benin (128), Saudi Arabia (129), Mali (131), Pakistan (132), Chad (133) and Yemen (134).

The three non-Muslim countries in the bottom 20 are Nepal at 115, Ethiopia at 121 and Cote d’Ivoire at 130.

Another 13 Muslim-majority countries appear higher up in the ratings, with the five scoring the highest Kazakhstan (41), Kyrgyzstan (51), Brunei (77), Bangladesh (82) and Indonesia (87).

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Home » News
Statistics Show Women Fare Badly in Muslim Countries, but U.N. Official Says Critics Are ‘Stereotyping’ Islam
By Patrick Goodenough
October 22, 2010
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burqa woman Palestinian

A Palestinian woman wears a niqab. (AP Photo)

( – The head of the U.N. Population Fund blames stereotyping for the perception that Islamic societies are “backward” when it comes to the treatment of women, but data released by other international agencies challenge that assertion.

U.N. Population Fund (UNFPA) Executive Director Thoraya Obaid, a Saudi, made the statement in an interview with Inter Press Service (IPS), as the agency she heads released its annual report on the world’s population.

This year’s report focuses on the way women are affected by conflict, and Obaid told IPS that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein left Iraqi women worse off.

(Human rights advocates say the rights enjoyed by Iraqi women under family laws enacted two decades before Saddam seized power in 1979 were set back after the Baathist regime fell, as newly empowered Islamists pressed for marital and family matters to be regulated by shari’a law.)

“Although the [Iraqi] constitution forbids discrimination on the basis of gender, in practice conservative societal standards impeded women’s abilities to exercise their rights,” the State Department said in its most recent annual human rights report.)

Thoraya Ahmed Obaid, UNFPA

Thoraya Ahmed Obaid, executive director of the United Nations Population Fund, leaves a news conference in London following the release of UNFPA’s annual report regarding the state of world population, on Wednesday Nov. 18, 2009. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)

Obaid said conditions for Iraqi women had worsened after the U.S.-led invasion.

The interviewer then asked her, “How does this square with the perception that, left to themselves, Muslim societies are backward, and that the U.S. is the progressive one?”

Obaid replied, “That is a political question in many ways. There are stereotypes of Muslim countries, and Muslim women.”

“This is the stereotyping of a people and also of a religion, and as a result assumptions are based on such perceptions,” Obaid added. “In many ways it is perceptions that hinder Muslim women in many places.”

Obaid pointed out that she is a Saudi woman – “and see where I am right now.”

Ali Alyami, executive director of the Washington-based Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia, said Friday that Obaid was “a defender of her oppressors.”

“I know her, and her position is more important to her than speaking the truth to power,” he said.

Obaid’s career achievements stand in stark contrast to the situation faced by millions of women in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the Arab and Islamic world, as borne out by two major reports released this month.

The World Economic Forum last week distributed its annual Global Gender Gap Report, a review of how 134 countries have succeeded in closing gaps between women and men in four areas – economic participation and opportunity, educational attainment, political empowerment and health and survival.

While some non-Muslim countries do poorly, the vast majority of the worst-scoring countries are Islamic, most of them Arab states.

Seventeen of the 20 countries at the bottom of the gender gap scale are Islamic – Lebanon (placed at 116), Qatar (117), Nigeria (118), Algeria (119), Jordan (120), Oman (122), Iran (123), Syria (124), Egypt (125), Turkey (126), Morocco (127), Benin (128), Saudi Arabia (129), Mali (131), Pakistan (132), Chad (133) and Yemen (134).

The three non-Muslim countries in the bottom 20 are Nepal at 115, Ethiopia at 121 and Cote d’Ivoire at 130.

Another 13 Muslim-majority countries appear higher up in the ratings, with the five scoring the highest Kazakhstan (41), Kyrgyzstan (51), Brunei (77), Bangladesh (82) and Indonesia (87).

School enrolment, literacy, employment, politics

On Wednesday, the U.N. Department of Economic and Social Affairs (DESA) released another major report, also dealing with the status of women around the world in 2010. The numerous indicators explored in the report include the rate of girls of primary school age enrolled in school, compared to that of boys.

The seven countries with the biggest gaps are all Islamic countries – Chad (a 22 percent difference between boys and girls enrolled), Yemen (20), Pakistan (16), Guinea-Bissau (16), Mali (14), Iraq (13) and Niger (13).

Two Islamic countries do break the pattern significantly – in Iran the percentage of girls enrolled in primary school is nine percent higher than that of boys; Mauritania also has five percent more girls enrolled than boys.

When it comes to the difference between literacy rates in adult women and men, Islamic countries once again score worst for women.

Of the seven countries with the biggest literacy gaps, five are Islamic – Yemen (a 36 percent gender gap), Mozambique (30), Guinea-Bissau (29), Niger (28) and Pakistan (27). The non-Islamic two are Central African Republic (28) and Ethiopia (27).

With the net cast wider, of the 28 countries scoring worst for women when it comes to literacy, 20 are Islamic states.

The DESA report also tracks the percentage of women represented in parliaments in 2009. Rwanda scores highest, with 56 percent of its parliamentary seats held by women.

At the other end of the scale, the only countries with no female representatives are all Islamic, and all Arab Gulf states – Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

Finally, Islamic states fare poorly in a list showing the percentage of women making up the adult labour force.

In 27 countries where women accounted for less than one-third of the total adult labor force, 22 are Islamic states, with the UAE (women comprise 15 percent of the workforce), Saudi Arabia (16) and Qatar (16) scoring worst.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 14:44:08

Oops didn't mean to paste the whole thing, it's very long

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 03-Nov-12 14:47:36

I clicked that link Mooblies. It is a colour coded map. According to this the UK women have "medium levels of physical security". Other countries are low or high.

Can you provide actual stats, as medium, low and high tell us little? Also can they be independent and nothing to do with George Bush Sr.

FlobbadobbaBOO Sat 03-Nov-12 14:56:24

People of every religion interpret the teachings in all sorts of ways. The Koran preaches peace but if one passage is taken out of context then it takes in a whole new meaning. The Bible is the same.

Fakebook Sat 03-Nov-12 14:58:05

That map is about discrepancies in education. Nothing to do with dv or honour killings.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 15:00:35

You can click on the right hand side and it show lots of different maps, not just education

thegreylady Sat 03-Nov-12 15:23:52

The statistic I was questioning was the poster who stated that 95% of honour killings were done by Christians.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 15:31:43

It is not just an Islamic cultural tradition, it also happens in Hindu families and communities.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 15:34:00

I hope no one would defend honour killings with the justification that domestic abuse also exists. There should be no qualification attached to condemning honour killings.

Abitwobblynow Sat 03-Nov-12 16:03:14


the New Testament is lovey dovey
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
Matthew 10:34-36

Go to the 'But we took you to stately homes!' thread, read it, and then think about what an incredible revolutionary Jesus was.
He said: 'shine the light of truth'; 'and the truth shall set you free' and 'all that shall repent, shall be forgiven'.

Now, let me tell you about dysfunctional families (like the one discussed in this thread) where truly unloving things are done in the name of 'love' and 'parenting' - and the child is forced to suspend their own feelings (I feel sad/humiliated etc); and take on the family mantra ('my family are wonderful, and how they do things is normal').

I would just like to tell you, politely, that the day I took a sword against my family (in their eyes) and turned against them IN THE NAME OF TELLING THE TRUTH, was the beginning of the rest of my life. I could be true to myself and give cruelty and neglect it's proper name, and be reborn as a true human being, just like the hanging guy says.

Have some respect, and don't come over all relativistic here. There is no way on this planet you can equate something Jesus said, with the killing of a child.

God, there are a lot of Useful Idiots in this country. Sheeple.

MamaMary Sat 03-Nov-12 16:12:15

I find it incredibly disturbing and quite sad that people on mumsnet are reluctant to discuss the problem of honour killings in case they accidentally say something that makes them sound politically incorrect.

Agree with you, OP. People are far more willing to be critical of Christianity than Islam.

MamaMary Sat 03-Nov-12 16:15:13

Interesting statistics OP that expose the misogynistic culture in Islamic countries. Islamic countries are not pleasant places in which to be born female.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 16:15:40

But surely it's because a lot of feminists who "take a view" might be more left-wing, and "pro-diversity". Of course this is all shorthand for very complex sensitivities. That leads to some conflict when called on to unreservedly condemn such bigotry against women. It goes back to that old problem: tolerating intolerance.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 03-Nov-12 16:29:28

I haven't found MNetters to shy away from any topic on religious grounds, be it honor killings, circumcision or child abuse.

I have found that some MNetters are really quick to shout about the non existent preferential treatment of religions on this board.hmm. It has been my experience that such posters have an axe to grind regarding whichever religion is in their sights.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 16:44:13

Maybe I'm wrong? It would be nice if I was.

I have been to Morroco and Malaysia which are Muslim countries, although women don't completely cover up I was certainly stared at and made to feel more threatened as a Westerner, even though I was covered up. I had an Iranian boyfriend while I lived in Japan, he had escaped to Australia in the 90's while his sister was captured and hung.

I know Yemen has the worst record for maternal and infant mortality and Turkey the highest recorded rates of domestic violence.

I also know it is illegal for women to drive in certain Islamic countries.

I also know that women risk being arrested for not covering their faces and/or hair in many Islamic countries.

FGM and honour killings are also predominantly performed in Islamic countries.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 16:47:14

Brycie - tolerating intolerance, you have hit the nail on the head there thanks

simplesusan Sat 03-Nov-12 16:48:00

I think violence against women is a worldwide disgrace.
Possibly most countries/culture/religions promote it in some form or other.

None of it is acceptable.

MrsDeVere Sat 03-Nov-12 16:54:15

Women and girls are undervalued in most cultures and most countries.

Until they have access to education and medical care, legal services and employment 'honour killings' will continue.

I think it is a very important issue and women who are not white/uk/CofE should not be allowed to suffer because people are worried about being perceived as less than liberal.

It is more of a DV issue than a religious one IMO. I would be amazed if a functional, loving family would kill their child for 'shame'. These things happen in abusive families. They simply hide behind culture and religion.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 16:55:48

I wonder if the fact that women are covered up de-humanises them and demotes their position in society in some way so men feel they are fair game for abuse and discrimination? I live din Thailand and also in Japan for many years and even there women are certainly not given the equality as we have here in the UK

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 16:58:53

Someone also once said that Islam is a relatively new religion and all religions have 'phases' of discrimination and abuse as Christianity did in the middle ages, just a thought.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 16:59:51

MrsDeVere - Good post

simplesusan Sat 03-Nov-12 17:02:49

You could have a point Mooblies. Also I dislike how the media make such big issues about women who are murdered by someone other than immediate family or husband/partner, as if "let that be a lesson to you women, daring to venture out alone." Yet when then violence is committed by a husband/relative the issue is swept under the carpet almost.

GrrrArghZzzz Sat 03-Nov-12 17:07:57

You answered your own question, even in countries without the coverings there are problems (and Turkey,which you mentioned previously, does not allow coverings in many public settings).

It is also important to remember that in Iran and Taliban-controlled areas of Afghanistan, both countries known for their laws about covering up, those countries were far more liberal 30 years ago. There are far more political reasons why they are like they are today and they aren't all to do with Islam (Western countries used Islamic fundamentalists as fighters to dis-stabilize the countries when they were swinging away from them. Iran because of oil - they were going to nationalise and Western countries including Britain, tired of stealing it, made it more likely to sell it to us, Afghanistan because the US didn't like them being buddies with Russia or the idea communism in their block). Our countries have us much blood on our hands on women's rights as they do.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 17:08:40

Women and girls are by law second class citizens in most countries that call themselves Islamic. The religiously inspired law in most Islamic countries expressly condemns women to a secondary civic role and accords them very few personal civil rights. Until someone with stature in the Islamic religion stands up and cries foul I think it can be assumed that there is only one opinion on the subject of what rights women are entitled to in the Islamic world.

Sadly, given that (Saudi) Wahhabi-inspired fundamentalist thought is gradually taking over the Islamic world (this is the aim of Wahhabism -- promoting unity of Muslims by silencing other trains of thought), we can only look forward to more covered women, more campaigns for Sharia law alongside western civil law, no progress in women's civil and human rights in areas dominated by Islam, more acid attacks and honour killings and restrictions on the freedom of women and girls..

Whether DV remains a problem or not in the west, it is still a far better place to be a girl or a woman than anywhere dominated by Wahhabi-influenced fundamentalist Islam. Western values still leave an opportunity for women to seek justice based on the equal value of each individual. Not so elsewhere.

The French have nailed their colours to the mast on the issue of veiled women and have been criticised by many wet sorts, unfairly imo. I think they have seen the symbolism of women wearing the veil for what it is, a mockery of western freedom.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 03-Nov-12 17:08:56

No, I think the fact that women and children are valued as property is what dehumanizes and demotes them in the minds of those who will hurt and kill them.

There is no such thing as Honour Killing, there is child abuse, domestic violence and murder. There is no honour in these crimes.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 17:17:44

The increase in covering is all down to the spread of Wahhabism, paid for by Saudi oil revenue, not to a natural or predictable repugnance for US values.

The US didn't help the case for western values by its widespread interference in political affairs in South Asia and the Middle East; its support for the Mujaheddin has definitely come back to bite it on the bum, and the full effects of the CIA's Iranian adventure have yet to be seen, but it is Saudi money that has promoted the rise of fundamentalism, not in Iran, where Islam tends to be of the Shia variety, and where today women tend not to be as veiled as they were during the first days of the Khomeini revolution, but in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and increasingly in Egypt but Egypt is not going down without a struggle. The Saudis are Sunnis.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 17:27:36

The use of the term honour is a semantic issue. The word can't be used to dismiss the religious element from the act of murder for reasons of honour.

Women are seen as property because of the religious view of the destiny of men and the religious view of relations between men and women, and especially because of the view that life is less important than what happens after it. If life is just a series of potholes and potential wrong turns on the way to paradise then nobody's life is worth anything. If a man's duty is to be the patriarch and to make sure the women under his patronage get to paradise and this is seen as the only thing his life will be measured by, then you can see where it might lead.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 17:30:10

mathanxiety - great post

thegreylady Sat 03-Nov-12 18:10:23

Interesting to see Mooblies comment about Turkey and dv. My son is married to a lovely Turkish woman.He has lived in Turkey since 1992 and I have got to know the extended family very well indeed.I have never ever seen any evidence of dv and the children are without exception loved and indulged.The parents tend to be protective of the older girls but they go out together and in mixed groups,wear Western clothes and socialise.There isnt much if any alcohol and no drugs except tobacco but it is a happy society.My dd-i-l's sister was offered an arranged marriage but when she didn't like the bloke that was fine.She is now married happily to a man of her choosing.
The family is Muslim but totally tolerant of Christianity-they say there is only a thin line between us-they revere Jesus as a prophet.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 18:14:02

Statistically, Turkey has a terrible DV record


and here

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 18:19:38

Turkey's poor record on honour killings and ineffective protection of women's rights are stumbling blocks to membership of the EU.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 18:29:36

The difference between so-called honour killing and domestic violence is that it is carried out in the name of religion (although it does have more of a cultural basis). It is wrong to compare it to domestic violence, as if the same "solutions" could be applied.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 18:30:21

In other words, yes math. What you said.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 18:32:00

I don't think it really matters that this may be an adolescent phase of Islam - it's still wrong and should not be tolerated, excused or qualified. I have not brought my daughter into the world to see values of equality reversed and the women around her suffering because of that.

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 18:36:33

But I don't think honour killings are carried out in the name of religion. They are carried out in the name of family honour, which is a cultural construction. This simply isn't an Islamic issue - that's not to say that the problem isn't real, but it's every bit as real in the Sikh and Hindu communities of northern India, where the status of women is equally poor. If we focus on it as a religious issue, I think we lose sight of the real problem.

Mooblies Sat 03-Nov-12 18:36:39

Brycie - thanks

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 18:39:34

And I agree with MrsDeVere (as always)! These killings do not take place in normal, loving families but in violent, abusive families.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 19:01:49

Family honour is bound up with upholding the religion.

The honour of the family consists in the degree to which the religion is observed, and in the case of girls murdered by their families, they have offended the religion by doing things that are unacceptable from a religious pov, such as looking at boys riding motor scooters (recent case from Kashmir). Claims are not made for the killings the way terrorist organisations claim they planted such and such a bomb, etc., but the 'reasons' put forth by defendants and the findings of investigations reveal the religious inspiration. Religion and personal identity are closely bound together for many Muslim men and women. A person's relationship with god is the primary one in many parts of the Islamic world; western, enlightenment-cum-Freudian ideas have not become part of the currency of how people see themselves. Religion dominates people's self perception. It shapes their view of relationships and gender roles. It is not a western way of thinking at all.

The vast majority of honour killings happen in Islamic societies. They far outnumber those in societies where Hindus and Sikhs predominate and government seems more willing and able to do something about it in India than in neighbouring Pakistan for example. The different response of Hindus and Sikhs to that of Muslims when faced with western life shows in the different educational attainment levels of children with Indian ethnicity and those with Bangladeshi and Pakistani ethnicity in the UK educational system -- both boys and girls of Hindu ethnicity tend to do better than Muslims. It also shows in the almost complete absence of honour killings in Hindu families in the west compared to notable prevalence in Muslim families. The difference in adaptation seems to come about because of religiously inspired values.

Hindu and Sikh honour killings are of course also bound up with notions of what is acceptable behaviour for women and the notion that what one's womenfolk do reflects badly on the status of a male head of family. The degree to which the status of a male head of family relies on the marriageability of the women seems to correlate with the lack of formal secular education and thus poverty everywhere. But there is not an intractable religious foundation to the place of women in Hindu and Sikh society, openly preached and openly enforced by the sort of agents you find in the Islamic world -- the morality police of Saudi Arabia for instance.

MrsDeVere Sat 03-Nov-12 19:06:38

I cant agree Brycie. Treating these killings as something distinct from DV murder and abuse has not worked.
I may be wrong but they seem to be going up, not down.
There are added complexities but they are still DV.

If 'shame' is the trigger then why is not 'shame' the prevention?

Is the shame of a woman looking at a boy on a motorbike really more than the shame of the head of the household being bought before the courts and his crimes laid bare?

I think the 'black on black' crime tag is just as harmful tbh. It can make people think it is not anything to do with them.

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 19:27:56

Some interesting stats about perceptions of "honour" among British Asians can be found here

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 19:33:23

Oops, posted too soon. Meant to say that these figures don't back up the view that "honour" is a preoccupation for Muslims living in the west but not those of other faiths.

Also, I'm not sure how much the Indian government is actually doing to combat these issues. They seem to be failing to bring about much change in any case. And a recent suggestion from a northern Indian politician to address the growing problem of rape and sexual violence was to reduce the legal age at which girls could marry. hmm

pinkoyster Sat 03-Nov-12 19:37:40

I've read this thread with interest, and agree with the majority of posters that the issue is cultural rather than religious. I definitely think it should be discussed rather than swept under the carpet though, for fear of offending a certain group of people.

mathanxiety, the Wahabi-influenced Islam you describe is a SECT of Islam. There are many sects (sunni, shia, wahabi, ismaili, ithnaasheri, darvishi) and they all disagree with each other on key points. Wahabi's are seen as being particularly extreme, and apart from Saudi Arabia, and small pockets of followers around the world, are definitely in the minority of Islam. I don't think we need to worry about them 'taking over the Islamic world' just yet!

Having been in a long-term relationship with an Iranian prior to DH, and exposed to many muslims throughout my youth, I can say they are good, and bad. Like any Christian I've met. Like any Jew I've met. So why the need to concentrate on the religion rather then the type of people who carry out these killings?

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 19:38:25

Treating them differently from common or garden DV won't work, I agree with that. And I agree that in a loving family nothing like this would happen, no matter what the religious views of the family were.

However, not to acknowledge the part religion plays in forming the self perception of the men involved is a mistake. Religiosity involves making your female family members tow the line regardless of the civil law consequences for you. Shame is not the prevention because religiosity is a badge of pride. This is why religion makes it more complicated than 'western' DV to tackle.

Clearly there is nothing to be gained in this world from killing your own beautiful daughter in the fullness of her life. You will go to prison and your child will be dead and buried. But people who do this are not really focused on this world.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 19:56:28

The aim of the Wahhabi sect is to take over the Islamic world. It is the power behind the throne in Saudi Arabia and there is no reason to believe religious influence and political power would not go hand in hand if it were to reach tipping point and attain power elsewhere.

It is completely intolerant of any other sects in Islam (Shi'ites, etc.), and Judaism and Christianity are in its sights too. Muslims who are not following the strict Wahhabi way are not considered true Muslims but enervators, or 'claimants to Islam'. In the 1970s oil revenue started funding the rise and rise of Wahhibism around the world. To date billions have been spent establishing mosques and madrassas and training clerics.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 20:30:16

Yes, they are cultural and to do with family honour, but the belief system informing that is religious. Family honour is tied up with the belief system, marrying outside the religion or religious caste. I don't think it ignores the problem to ignore that, Mrs DeVere.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 20:32:41

I think I'll just give other and let math and mooblies say it! They are better informed than me.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 20:37:05

Re: India. It doesn't really matter hugely what the "government" in India does. It won't make any difference to its prevalance there. Sometimes it seems even economic advancement and prosperity make few inroads.

Don't forget even in Egypt, the testimony of one woman in court is worth half of one man's testimony. In Egypt.

MrsDeVere Sat 03-Nov-12 20:49:16

I dont think the religious and cultural side should be ignored.
But I do not think these murders and maimings should be given a special status.

They are crimes against (mainly) women in the name of power and control.

They are not even carried out by the most observant of families. I am quite sure it is forbidden to rape your cousin in all cultures and religions. So the men who carried out a recent 'honour' killing were hardly the most devoted of muslims were they?

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 20:51:45

I think they should, actually; I think they should be addressed as a specific problem. However I respect your view; I imagine we are motivated by the same defensiveness towards women's rights.

MrsDeVere Sat 03-Nov-12 20:57:31

I understand where you are coming from. You cannot dismiss the 'honour' part of these killings altogether. You certainly cannot tackle them without specialist policing and liaison.

They are specific in so much as DV needs to be treated specifically, hate crime and sexual assault etc.

But I feel they have to be included in 'mainstream' DV to avoid the 'othering' of women affect by them.

If you get me? smile

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 21:21:07

Honour killing in India amongst Hindus arises mostly from the dictates of the caste system and of course it couldn't exist unless families were strongly patriarchal, with the attendant theory of women and girls as property. Maybe it is too much to hope that government efforts to eliminate the caste system will be speeded up by rising prosperity.

At least the government takes an official stand in India, and -- cold comfort -- in India men are killed in about 40% of cases. This is due to the caste based inspiration for Hindu honour killings. Women and men alike are bound to maintain caste distinctions. The preponderance of female victims amongst Muslims illustrates the fact that women are the keepers of family honour in many Islamic societies; sexual purity is the role of women (well illustrated by the requirement to veil).

In many Muslim societies there seems hardly a peep against the idea that killing girls and women is perfectly acceptable when family honour is at stake. By contrast with Indian governments, the refusal of Muslim authorities to unambiguously denounce honour killing perpetuates the practice -- claims that it has nothing to do with Islam (so therefore it falls outside the scope of religious proclamations) are disingenuous. There is clearly a moral issue involved, but since the victims are mainly girls and women, standing up for them and therefore publicly asserting that they have rights relative to the family is difficult. The fundamental issue when it comes to denouncing this appalling treatment of women and girls is the primacy of men and second class position of women, which is seen as a religiously ordained fact of life.

MrsDeVere Sat 03-Nov-12 21:24:15

Have acid attacks only just been made illegal in Karachi?
I may have misread but it seemed astounding that they needed a new law to criminalise throwing acid over someone.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 21:28:34

I would also be completely against any special status.

I think there is always the tendency to think of women who are victims of violence at the hands of family members as somehow different from women who are victims of crimes committed by strangers; this almost reflexive tendency would be magnified in the case of honour killing if honour killing was to be given any special status.

Crimes against women in general tend to have a special 'not so serious' status to begin with (see laughable attitude to rape for instance) and certainly considering honour killing a lesser crime (or somehow excusable) than violence within families without the religious component would be a huge mistake.

Brycie Sat 03-Nov-12 21:31:22

Mrs DV I do understand that there should not be addressed as a separate problem under the law. I mean education programmes and social programmes to address the issue should develop differently. But I'm at the edges of my knowledge here - it's opinion.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 21:33:56

There is always an educational component to proper enforcement of the law, ever since the days of the village stocks and public hangings.

What I don't understand is why Mothers and Fathers - from whatever religion or culture don't want more for their children than what they hadand just want to continue the nasty old status quo. My DGP's wanted more for us, as did our parents. They wanted us to get a good education, good jobs and to find partners we would be happy with. Not work in a coal mine or live hand to mouth.

I cannot understand why any parents in 2012 would want to marry off their 16 year old daughter to some ill educated bloke from a village in the arse end of nowhere just to keep some bit of land in the family when she could go to university and become a lawyer, a doctor, a nurse or whatever and have a great career. And this isn't just about Muslim, Hindu or Sikh families. We saw the same things happening in My Big Fat Gipsy Wedding - girls taken out of school at 13 to care for siblings and married off at 16 because that is tradition. Maintaining your culture is one thing but potentially condemning your children to a lifetime of drudgery isn't it.

And I hate the term 'honour killing' - it's murder. But until those communities accept that a life sentence for murder as being more shameful than the murder itself then it will continue. In the UK at least.

Jinsei Sat 03-Nov-12 22:42:45

Yes, they are cultural and to do with family honour, but the belief system informing that is religious. Family honour is tied up with the belief system, marrying outside the religion or religious caste.

See, I still don't think that the concept of family honour is informed by religious beliefs as such. Rather, I think that religious beliefs are co-opted to justify an underlying belief in "honour" that is cultural in origin. Hence Muslims talk about honour in terms of chastity and religious virtue, while Hindus often (but not always) interpret it in terms of the caste system etc. Sikhs will have another interpretation. In my opinion, none of these communities derive their views on family honour directly from their religions, but rather, they sometimes use
their respective religions to justify their cultural values. Hence honour killing and violence towards women tends to be more prevalent among Hindus and Sikhs in North India, where many cultural values are shared with neighbouring Pakistan, than among Hindus in South India, where the culture and traditions are quite different.

As for the government doing anything about it, sadly, attempts to dismantle the caste system are a long way off being effective. Likewise attempts to prevent selective abortions - the gender imbalance in some northern states is truly shocking. But progress isn't helped by the backward values of some politicians and local officials who are willing to turn a blind eye to these issues, or worse still, try to justify them. Unfortunately, this is probably the case in so many countries.

I think it's tremendously important for us to understand the cultural values that contribute to these problems, and indeed any religious factors that may be at work. However, I stand by the view that, ultimately, these crimes are just another way in which a small minority of men seek to exercise power and control over women and young girls, and they must be tackled within this wider context.

mathanxiety Sat 03-Nov-12 23:12:23

Busters it is because the life we have here is seen as an unpleasant but necessary prelude to the hereafter and nothing more. Paradise is where it's at, not the good job, the education that takes you out of the fields and into the middle class lifestyle. When you mix up religion with self identity and the whole purpose of this life is the next life then you will do whatever it takes to ensure you do not end up miserable in the next life as well as this one and if doing well in the here and now involves abandoning what you see as basic requirements of your religion (including making sure your family's females are chaste) then you will choose perpetuating your family's poverty and lack of education over what modern life has to offer them. Simply, they do it because their eyes are on the hereafter.

'And I hate the term 'honour killing' - it's murder. But until those communities accept that a life sentence for murder as being more shameful than the murder itself then it will continue. In the UK at least. '
I agree with this.

Although honour killing tends to happen more in northern India than in the south, men are almost as likely to be killed for infractions of the honour code as women are, whereas in Muslim societies the victims are overwhelmingly women, and this is because of the tendency of the religion to assign to women a role as keepers of honour.

Interesting explanation Maththank you. I was genuinely asking those questions so I appreciate them being answered.

Brycie Sun 04-Nov-12 10:50:27

True math - and northern India seems to be going backwards in terms of panchayat decisions and power.

Abitwobblynow Sun 04-Nov-12 11:00:55

"The aim of the Wahhabi sect is to take over the Islamic world. It is the power behind the throne in Saudi Arabia and there is no reason to believe religious influence and political power would not go hand in hand if it were to reach tipping point and attain power elsewhere.

It is completely intolerant of any other sects in Islam (Shi'ites, etc.), and Judaism and Christianity are in its sights too. Muslims who are not following the strict Wahhabi way are not considered true Muslims but enervators, or 'claimants to Islam'. In the 1970s oil revenue started funding the rise and rise of Wahhibism around the world. To date billions have been spent establishing mosques and madrassas and training clerics."

Absolutely, Math. In fact, in the Ottoman empire the Wahhabi sect was considered so crazy and dangerous that they were killed. Al Quaeda was booted out of Iraq, because the local tribes got repelled by their extreme cruelty and turned against them (telling the American forces where they were), and muslim mainstream opinion was sickened by the barbaric cutting of hostages throats on TV. Notice they don't do it any more? Its because MUSLIMS were horrified and they lost serious support as a result.

And now this extreme puritannical sect of Islam is being financed by petrodollars. The growing civil war in Nigeria, which will eventually result in that country being split? The civil war in Somalia, which HAS resulted in the country splitting? The war in Mali? All funded and financed by the Saudi proseletysing of Wahhabi Islam.

Not for nothing is oil called 'the devil's excrement'.

Muslims need to wake up, stop pointing fingers at the West, own their own internal issues and splits, and DO something about them, just as Christianity did during the Reformation and the Counter Reformation 500 years ago. If Mohammed was walking around today he would be horrified at the ridiculous shrouding of women, and muslim extremism. What a pity he did not name his successor before he died.

mathanxiety Sun 04-Nov-12 20:30:49

Every day brings another report of a Christian church being attacked in northern Africa, and Kenya. The recent destruction of the shrines and monuments in Timbouctou in Mali was all done by Wahhabi influenced forces and it was followed by the infliction of terrorism designed to cow the residents. The destruction of the famous Buddha statues of Bamiyan by the Taliban in western Afghanistan was also inspired by Wahhabism. Salafists are waging war on Sufis throughout the Muslim world in any place where law and order allows them free rein. Shrines have been destroyed and people killed.

Brycie Sun 04-Nov-12 20:31:36

Math you know so much about this. how come?

MamaMary Mon 05-Nov-12 21:07:43

In the news today, in case you didn't see it.

Parents kill daughter for looking at boy

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 06:41:47

"There was a boy who came by on a motorcycle. She (Anusha) turned to look at him twice. I told her before not to do that, it's wrong. People talk about us because our older daughter was the same way," he said."

Here you have a fatal mixture of heartless, small, fearful people more concerned about their own reputation than about their bond to their daughter in a strict Muslim society where reputation means more than life itself.

Brycie, I got interested in the topic when DD1 did a course on modern mid eastern history. It seemed a natural topic for a feminist with an interest in history to be interested in.>

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 08:16:07

in August 2012 a white couple got jailed for beating their daughter up for 'bringing shame on the family' by dating a black boy.

white girl gets beaten up for dating black guy. black guy gets beaten up for dating white girl - these stories are the equivalent of honour crimes in the UK. it was not so long ago that white british girls would be ostracised by their families and communities for marrying asian or black men because of the shame. even now some white women in interracial relationships get accused sometimes of betraying their own kind - by members of their own family or members of their 'community'.

as for the honour crimes done by non whites in the UK. of the middle eastern ones they are committed by kurdish families. many of then non religious kurdish families so i assert it is more to do with their culture than their religion. i have read of iranian kurds, iraqi kurds, turkish kurds, but not of iranians and arabs unless someone can post an article.

and for the asians, as has been stated earlier, indian sikhs and hindus also commit this crime, there are large sri lankan muslim communities in the uk that do not commit honour crimes.

its sad that this conversation is even happening.

as for mathanxiety i feel that you are rooting for the minority wahhabi sect to triumph and take over Islam because it fits your idea of how muslims are.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 09:30:11

it is very easy from an outsiders point of view to criticise families fearing shame bought on them but we do not live in a society where if you or your family do something that is considered immoral it will have a huge impact on the whole family in many cultures it does it is not that simple as families that love their children do not think this way unfortunately many do as it is so ingrained within their culture. That is not to excuse any violence but the fear of being shamed and being ostracized is very powerful and this is what keeps many locked in this cycle of oppression that is passed on from generation to generation

geegee888 Tue 06-Nov-12 09:40:10

It happens in sectors of society where women are considered "chattels" ie of the same status as possessions, and are repressed. Where women are not considered of the same value as men, or with the same rights to life and liberty.

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 10:08:02

but in the case of David and Frances Champion they are both white, with no link to ethnic minority culture, who punished their daughter for shaming them by bring a black young man home, a christian boy. key word is shame.

you may say it is an anomaly but there is a history to this in white british culture where it was considered SHAMEFUL for a white girl to go out with a black boy. with education and the huge tackling of racism a british woman no longer fears ostracism or abuse for marrying a man she loves. but it is still very much a part of the present in the USA where interracial marriages and relationships are still uncommon and frowned upon...

honour killings are as alien to the majority of the world's 1.4 billion muslims as this crime is to British culture.

Brycie Tue 06-Nov-12 10:13:47

Yes, it is very easy to criticise Freudian. You criticise, or you collude with it. There's no middle ground.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 10:37:22

the middle ground is showing an understanding looking at the bigger picture. very complex situations is it not black and white we are right they are wrong all societies have problems, not one group of muslims represent all muslims but reading the many threads on here regarding muslims it is quite obvious many do think that way

we live in a time where technology could help so much in us all understanding and learning more and being more compassionate and understanding but it often seems to have the opposite effect keep telling people they are wrong, backward in their way of thinking and you will just create a bigger divide. Muslim women in Pakistan may not value our way of life they may not see our freedoms as the freedoms they want for themselves or their children. Not all muslim women are down trodden and have no control over their life, far too many women all over the world do not but what women strive for in our society is not the same as what they may strive for in others

Brycie Tue 06-Nov-12 11:12:20

I see no need to understand family murders. I am not compassionate towards family murderers. I don't condone it in any way. I do not need greater understanding to condemn it. It is backward and medieval. Muslim women may not value our way of life; I would say with some certainty they don't want to be murdered by family members.

"Not all Muslim women are downtrodden". This is entirely irrelevant to the issue of so-caled honour killings, which are not just a Muslim issue. Many women condone, collude and take part in so-called honour killings, and for that matter take part in or take the lead in acts such as genital mutilation. Does this make a difference? None at all.

It should not be tolerated or understood or condoned or compassioned anywhere; but as this is the only country we have control over, we can at least say it should not be tolerated or understood or compassioned in this one.

OldMumsy Tue 06-Nov-12 12:01:13

It's a religion that allows men to ride roughshod over women. Murder of said women is a predicable outcome.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 12:01:41

who has said you need to show compassion to someone who has committed murder hmm it is to the oppression that people suffer in some places and cultures that many of us do not here that keeps this cycle of oppression. it is not only women that suffer from being oppressed. why do you think these women do perform fgm on their daughters as an act of cruelty? the idea behind fgm is terribly cruel and about control over women but that is not why is is necessarily carried out do you think they love their daughters less than we love our own children. the fear that their daughter will not marry, the fear that their family will have no support financially or from their community in the future. maybe some do it to be cruel but the vast majority do not

i have not condoned violence or oppression in any way but i try to understand what drives people to commit such cruelty on others. no changes will be made just by telling people they are cruel and wrong, education and understanding of the culture and oppression some have faced is the only way to make changes. there are programmes to support women who have suffered from fgm and to educate them on the dangers so they do not put their daughters through it, it would not work (and sadly it does not always work) if these women were told they and their culture are wrong, what they value is wrong what needs to be shown is that things can be different and they do not need to fear change

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 12:43:11

"It's a religion that allows men to ride roughshod over women."

lets get down to it then.

to me Islam is a religion that serves the interests of women and their children far more than it serves the interests of men. so im going further than saying women and men are equals, i am saying women benefit more from Islam than men.

or do you say that a world religion that:

that bans alcohol,
that bans gambling,
that bans drug taking,
that bans adultery,
that bans sex outside of marriage,
that bans pornography,
that bans female infanticide specifically,
that bans abandonment of children and family:

- is that a religion that gives the advantage to men over their wives?

consider all the social and health problems that come from alcohol, betting shops and gambling, drugs, promiscuity, pornography etc and consider the disproportionate effect on women and children those social problems create.

and then consider that Islam - which you may see as draconian or heavy handed for blanket banning - is the ounce of prevention worth the pound of cure to many communities all around the world.

especially in poor communities and countries that:

cannot afford to provide child benefit for children,
cannot afford to provide free healthcare,
cannot afford social security and welfare,

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 13:01:55

ok but these bans are then upheld in court where a mans testimony is worth more than a womans. there are many rights that men have in islam that have no place in modern britian but a good muslim should see the world has moved on and not just take bits from the koran that suits their needs

islam may have helped womans welfare in the 7th century does it now in modern day britian i do not think so and all religion is used to keep women powerless it always has and always will

Bramshott Tue 06-Nov-12 13:07:33

I think it's pretty concerning that honour killings, particularly in Pakistan are INCREASING rather than the opposite.

MamaMary Tue 06-Nov-12 13:20:44

i am saying women benefit more from Islam than men.

Um, have you read the statistics about the gender gap in Islam countries??? Posted above by the OP I believe?

This looks like wilful blindness to me and I can't understand it. I would have thought all the evidence points pretty clearly to the fact that Islam does NOT benefit women.

Yes, Bramshott, it IS concerning that honour killings are increasing; and comparing them to the Western equivalent of banning daughters from dating black men astounds me: there is no realistic comparison here.

cantspel Tue 06-Nov-12 13:39:44

How can you say islam benefits women? In Islam

In court your testimony is worth half that of a mans

In the family your inheritance is haft that of your brothers

A muslim woman can only marry a muslim man but he gets a choice.

A woman gets one husband and a man can have upto 4 wifes.

There are separate rules for men and woman to divorce, with the man just having to say the talaq but a woman has to petion a male judge.

How do any of these benefit women?

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 14:05:34

"Yes, Bramshott, it IS concerning that honour killings are increasing; and comparing them to the Western equivalent of banning daughters from dating black men astounds me: there is no realistic comparison here"

why not, that article said the parents said their daughter had brought shame upon their family by dating a black man, is that not to do with honour?

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 14:22:25


do you say that a world religion:

that bans alcohol,
that bans gambling,
that bans drug taking,
that bans adultery,
that bans sex outside of marriage,
that bans pornography,
that bans female infanticide specifically,
that bans abandonment of children and family:

- is that a religion that gives the advantage to men over their wives? i assert, that it is a religion that protects women and their children far more than it protects the interests of men. based on the huge societal benefits of those prohibitions alone.

i am not even going down the route of scripture bombing yet, the prohibitions i posted above are as well known and observed by muslims as the prohibition of consuming pork. across the muslim world there is far more debate on whether the hijab is obligatory or not rather than those above.

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 14:43:26

are alcohol abuse, gambling and drug addiction, adultery, pornography relics of the ancient past? gone with the modern world we live in? do they no longer affect individuals? their families and communities?

do they have no effect on British women and children today? as a society it may be an acceptable price to fork out 20 billion pounds a year dealing with alcohol abuse, but other countries cannot afford that.

"This looks like wilful blindness to me and I can't understand it. I would have thought all the evidence points pretty clearly to the fact that Islam does NOT benefit women."

what evidence? and whose evidence? i am expressing my opinion, why i feel i benefit far more from my husband observing islamic rules than he benefit from my observing. am i not allowed to say anything on this thread because I am a Muslim? does my contribution change the predictable trajectory this thread was supposed to take?

when the first links were made showing the relationship between circumcision and low HIV rates critics said the results were skewed by the fact communities with high rates of circumcision were Muslim and so of course they would have lower rates of HIV and other stds. simply because their religion was very condemnatory of sex outside marriage.
they said the studies were not reliable because they did not take into account the low rates of promiscuity of muslim men compared to non muslim men - and the studies had to be made again based only on non muslim men where the only difference was one group circumcised and one group wasnt.

Abitwobblynow Tue 06-Nov-12 15:25:34

Crescent moon I agree with you that there is something badly wrong with the permissive culture and progressive theories of the West - but not all the West is bad, just as not all Islam is good.
Despite all the relentless partying etc. I am not at all surprised to read that British children are the most depressed in the developed world and that young people report to psychologists feelings of deep emptiness. Of course they are, they are Godless and lost! Their souls are filled with empty things. When I listen to that stupid archbishop bleating on about political things, with never a single spiritual lesson or instruction to people on how to be better human beings, I just shake my head.

However, I think that Mohammed made a mistake when he seemed to think that if you ban things, they go away. Prohibition does not make things go away, we are inherently sinful and are constantly tempted by the Father of the Lie whispering in our ears and drawing us away from God.

Have you ever read any of the Torah (Old Testament)? The first book is called Genesis, and describes the Creation. In Chapter 3 there is the description of the creation of man (Adam and Eve). Even for non-religious people, as an allegory it describes beautifully the human condition. When Eve is tempted by the serpent, eats of the fruit (of the Tree of Knowledge) and gives it to her husband Adam, the scales instantly fall from their eyes, and they see that they are naked. This means that they are no longer innocent. They have God-like powers to discern between good and evil and can no longer be with God in paradise. We disobey God's laws, because we can. So we have tremendous powers, and a terrible flaw (an inherent selfishness, original sin) which is present in all of us. God does not punish us because he is a merciful loving and all-knowing God, but gives us free will to choose (and live our own consequences). This is personal responsibility, the foundation of Western philosophy.

Jesus differs from Mohammed because he tells us to shine the light of truth on our sinfulness (awareness), and repent - by doing so, being forgiven, and reborn in God's reflection. This is very similar to the therapeutic situation of modern psychology - to go into the shadows of our denied unconscious.

Whoever told that story might not have been able to read, they might have thought it whilst they were throwing stones at their goats, but they were genius. Or, it could be the word of God! Either way, the dilemma of what it is to be human, is right there.

Frontpaw Tue 06-Nov-12 15:34:56

It's not in the name of religion though. Whatever religion a murdered of their own child is, is irrelevant. In some parts of the world it happens - going far back into history pre-current religion.

Women have had as much blood on their hands as men in some of the reported cases.

I can't get my head around how someone can think that murdering their own child (someone they are supposed to protect and love) is less of a 'shame' than their teenager wearing make-up (or whatever their 'crime' that made them forfeit their life). It needs to be more a parent harming a child is the biggest 'shame' anyone can bring about.

cantspel Tue 06-Nov-12 15:35:04

that bans alcohol,

I dont think the answer is to ban alcohol just because some men and even some women get violent when drunk. What about the rights of the majority who drink responsibly do they not count?
that bans gambling,

Having the odd flutter never hurt anyone so again why ban something that the majority who take part do so responsibly?
that bans drug taking,

You can ban drugs as much as you like but people still take them including in muslim countries
that bans adultery,

This is a matter for the individuals and not laws but as long as it involves consenting adults then it is the people involved business.

that bans sex outside of marriage,

It is not only men who enjoy sex and why should anyone who wants to remain unmarried remain celibate?

that bans pornography,

again a matter for the individual. I am in the camp that as long as it is consenting adults it has nothing to do with me.

that bans female infanticide specifically,

I dont think their is a religion in the world that encourages this and would probably come under the cultural heading used so much when nasty islamic practices are mentioned.

that bans abandonment of children and family:

Again i name a religion that practices these.

I want civil laws that can be subject to change by the majority not rules written 2 thousand years ago that are unable to move with the times.
But all this has side tracked from the thread and doesn't shed any light on why in the 21st century these so called honor killings are still so wide spread.

Frontpaw Tue 06-Nov-12 15:54:25

Lets just stop using the phrase 'honour killing'. It is murder and in no way honourable

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 17:22:57

How about the lack of legal and civil rights for women in Saudi Arabia, CrescentMoon? There is ample evidence that this is because of the Wahhabi influence over the regime.

The difference between western cultures (where there are undoubtedly problems for women) and those in the thrall of Islam is that women at least have redress to the justice system in the west. You can forget about that if you have the misfortune to live elsewhere.

And you cannot say 'Islam bans' x or y or z. Islam is not a centrally organised religion. What goes for different Muslims is what the local Imam says should go, or whatever is the opinion of the one you have decided speaks for you. Different sects battle it out (Shi'ite and Sunni, Salafi and Sufi for instance). If one sect chooses to focus on policing the clothing and virtue of women, stoning rape victims, etc., while turning a blind eye to the Las Vegas shenanigans of the wealthy men, or what they do to their unfortunate Filipina house servants, then sorry ladies, that is life as a Muslim as far as you are concerned and to object is to bring shame on your family and to risk the consequences of being considered a not very good Muslim (which are considerable consequences right here and now).

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 17:25:47

'as for mathanxiety i feel that you are rooting for the minority wahhabi sect to triumph and take over Islam because it fits your idea of how muslims are.'

That is quite funny in its own very bass ackward way.
If you don't believe me that Wahhabism means business then maybe you should look at the news more.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 17:32:34

I disagree that no change can come about by telling people they are cruel and wrong. If that were the case then why would the CPS bother prosecuting parents who kill their daughters?

Change can come about by telling people they are not pious enough. Change can come about by telling women that failure to veil will result in rape, in bring shame on families, in being considered less that good Muslims. Why not the other way round? Change will come about in France as a result of legislation passed against the full veil.

The only way change will not come about is if this sort of conversation does not happen. It is not a shame to see it happen. It is a very necessary conversation.

PosieParker Tue 06-Nov-12 17:37:44

Surely one has to look inward at the very roots and texts of Islam and it's short history to discover why women are so truly oppressed and treated terribly.

Even the whole hijab (more and more often worn by very young girls) is a sign of men being above women, as obviously a woman is such an evil temptress and a man cannot help himself.

Until Islam looks inward for the causes of extremism and sexism , it will not heal or change.

OldMumsy Tue 06-Nov-12 17:41:04


that bans alcohol, - how dull

that bans gambling, - not a gambler but I seem to recall Knightsbridge casinos heaving with Saudis

that bans drug taking, - what even aspirin?? I am not a drug taker

that bans adultery, - banned by all monotheistic religions

that bans sex outside of marriage, - banned by all monotheistic religions

that bans pornography, - define pornography

that bans female infanticide specifically, - we just have Thou Salt Not Kill, it works for us

that bans abandonment of children and family: - banned by all monotheistic religions

What you have is a belief system that defines every aspect of your life. It also imposes its will on unbelievers when the numbers are right.

I and my family and friends manage to live full, happy and honourable lives within a framework of freedom to choose. I would not choose to live in a cage.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 18:52:38

the CPS prosecute those that break the law does it stop people breaking the law no

i am not suggesting that we ignore laws and those that break the law should not be prosecuted but to bring about change from people deep rooted fears which many of their beliefs are based on (as in fgm) we have to get people to lose their fears. how can i or you tell them don't worry your daughter will still find a husband you will be financially ok and your family will be accepted when they come from a society where that is simply not true. If you can change people this way christianity (or our version) and the british way would be the way of living in many more countries as this is what we have constantly tried to do.

Islam can not change the same as the bible cannot be changed but that does not mean people have not progressed and changed their way of life as Christians have. Islam was very progressive for women. not all muslims want change or to live a more western life they want to be able to practise to a level that is comfortable to them sadly many live under regimes that dictate to them how they should live, ones that the west are quite happy to keep in place while they are supplying us cheap oil

my ex was muslim all the women apart from his mother were highly educated, all had degrees, all chose their husbands, all had careers and all had their own voice. the only woman who was not was his mother who happened was french. For them they could not understand why i lived alone (before i married) why i travelled alone to them it was totally alien to us it is a sign of freedom though problems do arise when someone wants to step out and do something different it was the same here when our grandparents were youg. i have cousins that are muslim the oppression they have to deal with is the expectations of what is put on asian women in their culture and this is in a predominantly buddhist country and most of my family are christian and buddhist but all of us have the same expectations put on us regardless of religion

PosieParker Tue 06-Nov-12 18:59:57

And FReud did they adhere to protecting their husbands from sin, by covering?

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 19:03:40

" Islamic countries are not pleasant places in which to be born female."

I was born in an "Islamic" country and it was a very pleasant place to be born in and to grow up. And I wasn't stoned for being a vocal atheist from a very early age, if you can believe it.

Not that many here will believe it, but hey ho.

PosieParker Tue 06-Nov-12 19:06:54

Perhaps you were well off Cote?

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 19:11:42

Is it your belief that in truly dire fundamentalist places like Saudi Arabia, money is going to protect you if you act/talk against Islam?

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 19:15:03

The whole philosophy of many in Islam seems to be to project the bad onto others, starting with women and ending up with the whole of the west (aka the great satan).

I think it is patronising to treat immigrant people who mutilate others, kill others, etc., as somehow different from native mutilators and killers. Yes use the fact that religion sponsors those crimes or supports them or keeps its mouth firmly shut about them, but only to flag potential trouble.

Islam can and does change. The Bible has changed immensely, through translation and through the omission and retention of certain books by different branches of Christianity beginning in the middle ages. The RC version is longer than any protestant version. Islam is a religion that undergoes constant change just as Christianity has. It is a loosely organised religion, and change comes from varying interpretations of hadith, etc. It can also come as a result of money poured out of the coffers of the SA government to fund change through foundation of mosques, training of fundamentalist scholars.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 19:15:56

Cote d'Azur, what country were you born in?

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 19:17:17


only women i have known to wear a hijab was my ex's mother and muslim women i know here who have choosed to wear one. only time i wore a scarf and the women in my ex's family was at a funeral gathering. my cousins never wear a scarf but again would at a funeral or if they went to mosque

and no one had objections to me not being a muslim though it caused inner conflict for my ex they jsut all felt one day i would see the right way, no pressure was ever put on me to convert or to fast in ramadam when i did i was told off as it was too longer a day for me to go without food havign never fasted before smile i read the koran because i wanted to so i had an understanding of the religion

pinkoyster Tue 06-Nov-12 19:22:08

Mathanxiety, I honestly don't know why you keep banging on about SA somehow seeming to equate with Islam. Yes the Saudi's are rich. Yes the Wahabi's are extremist at best, fundamentalist at worst but they make up a VERY SMALL FRACTION of muslims around the world. The largest Muslim country is Malaysia. Why have there not been Malaysian terrorists burning the West? The issue of honour killings does NOT solely belong to Muslims. It belongs to Christians, Sikhs and Hindus too. You are doing every non-muslim woman who has been killed as a result of an 'honour' killing a disservice by claiming it is not a cultural problem.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 19:23:36

islam can not change the koran can not change it is written in what is now called classical arabic and has not changed. many muslims know the koran off by heart what does change and what scholars argue about is the interpretation and the messages from the hadiths

cantspel Tue 06-Nov-12 19:35:33

maybe Malaysian muslim terrorists have not attacked the west because they are too busy with target closer to home as plenty of churchs and temples in malasia have been targeted in recent years.
Or do we only care about western attacks?

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 19:37:18

Quran cannot change but Muslims can. Just like Christians did even though the Bible didn't.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 19:41:08

Because of money, Pinkoyster. No-one can compete against the billions SA has spent and is spending promoting fundamentalism and promoting it very successfully. By 1746 the House of Saud, fueled by the fervour of Wahhabism, had declared jihad on all neighbouring Muslim groups that refused to accept its brand of Islam and that approach persists today. Look at the number of veiled women as an indication of Wahhabi success. It costs X amount of money to produce Y number of veiled women in the west and elsewhere. Look at the destruction of Sufi shrines and continuous physical pressure and intimidation of Sufis in the M East, N Africa and South Asia as an indication of the way things are going. Wahhabism is aggressive and has bottomless financial resources. You may believe that Wahhabism is not Islam and Islam is not Wahhabism but if the Wahhabis/salafis get their way you will think otherwise, because their aim is the elimination of all other trains of Islamic thought and all other Muslim traditions. A great pity that so many Muslims refuse to acknowledge this despite evidence from all over the world of the way the wind is blowing.

It is precisely the interpretation that I am talking about, Freudian. I did not claim the Koran had changed. Islam can and does change. It is in a constant state of change.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 19:44:23

The Bible did in fact change.

pinkoyster Tue 06-Nov-12 19:46:00

cantspel,yes and several mosques have also been targeted. There is civil unrest (much like there is in Thailand, a non-muslim country). Apart from this unrest, do they have honour killings? No. Do they breed international terrorists to kill thousands of innocent civilians abroad? No. Does this mean they are peaceful and perfect in every way? Of course not. My point was that SA, regardless of how rich they are do not OWN Islam. It is a religion which has amongst it's followers good and bad. Like every religion. I'm a lapsed Catholic of Irish origin, and remember how hard it was for my parents in the 80's and early 90's with their Irish brogue living in England. People seem to forget so easily what it's like to be spat upon (actually happened to my DM), to be looked down upon and ridiculed because of religion and race. My Df (a GP) actually lost of patients after the bombings in Manchester cos he was Irish.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 19:49:00

They will have honour killings once the salafis take power. They have not yet been responsible for terrorism abroad. The more salafis gain control the more likely it is that terrorism will be exported.

SA does not yet own Islam, but it is spending billions trying to buy it.

Brycie Tue 06-Nov-12 19:50:59

I do like reading what math has to say on this.

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 19:52:01

"The Bible did in fact change"

It still says "Suffer not a witch to live" and yet you are not witch hunting.

That is what I meant. Christianity changed without the Bible having to change. The same will happen with Islam in the long term, hopefully with less bloodshed.

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 19:54:53

"What about the rights of the majority who drink responsibly do they not count?"

i already wrote cantspel in an earlier post that some may consider Islam draconian or heavy handed. i acknowledge that because of Islam's group orientation it might seem unfair to the individualist to stop the majority from engaging in something because of the possibility that a minority will suffer from dysfunctional behaviour because of it.

the truth of the matter is there are those who cant just stop at a single glass, cant just restrain themselves to the odd flutter, cant just keep it to the occasional joint, cant separate reality from pornography. who may loose their jobs, fall into debt, act antisocially, require their children to be looked after by external family or taken into care. and such individuals do not just affect themselves but their family, their friends, their neighbours, and their community as a whole.

alcohol abuse alone costs the UK 20 billion pounds a year,

(iv used the 2003 figure rather than the 2012 figure)

that shows the very real burden it places on society and the economy.

ok you can argue that the UK is a wealthy country that can afford the social workers, the treatment plans and rehab, the care homes. that it can afford by its welfare state and national health system to cushion the fall - because it is a fall - of familes that are suffering because of those vices.

but there are many societies around the world that cannot afford to do any of those things. they need their resources for nation building, not firefighting.
Islams solution is far cheaper and easier to implement for many societies and communities around the world. simply zero tolerance: that ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure.

as for female infanticide. if not for Islam's prohibition against female infanticide in particular - the Quran singles it out as a crime that has to be answered for on the Day of Judgement - then it would have been as common in the asian muslim countries as it is in their neighbours countries. specifically, those south east asian countries where far more boys than girls are born because of sex selective abortion: India, China, South korea, Taiwan, thailand. in those countries the 'right to choose' actually disempowers women because abortion is used to prevent the existence of women.

pinkoyster Tue 06-Nov-12 20:02:42

I don't know mathanxiety, it all sounds a bit conspiracy-theory and sensationalist to me...

Due to the nature of my and DH's work, I work in some notable muslim countries (as well as alongside Muslims in the UK) and they all hate the Saudis/Wahabi's. So even if they are trying to spread an extremist form of Islam, I doubt it will 'take', no matter how much wealth they have.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 20:04:22

islam does not change like i said before people progress societies and cultures change but islam is practised by many in the same way as it was 1000 years ago. pray 5 times a day, give alms, go to mecca, declare your faith and fast in ramadan

PosieParker Tue 06-Nov-12 20:06:10

Wow, quite obtuse Cote.

No what I meant was in the sort of country you grew up in, as an atheist, I was imagining that you had money as the only people I know to have grown in an Islamic country without being 'very' Muslim were very wealthy.

PosieParker Tue 06-Nov-12 20:08:54

But christianity does not say (especially as it has the synoptic gospels which are all the same but different) that it is the word of God, only the message. Not, obviously, the OT.

Islam seems to have considered this and decided that their book would basically say it is the word of God and cannot be altered.

Even the start of Islam was terrifying, unable to separate the violence and war from the religion.

cantspel Tue 06-Nov-12 20:14:28

crescentmoon you can put as many draconian laws in place that you want but the simple fact is drinking, drug taking gambling etc are not limited to western society but in a more liberal society women have the protection of the civil law to protect them but in islam they only have a mans interruption of a 2 thousand year old book hence you get women in saudi put to death for being victims of rape or women unable to divorcee violent and abusive men.

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 20:16:24

even the other gulf countries - oman, UAE, kuwait, bahrain - do not practise islam the way saudi arabia does. even those countries - which are not bastions of feminism even in the muslim world - look upon saudi arabia with horror at the enforced veiling, banning of women to drive, requiring women to have guardians permission to complete even the smallest bureaucracy. let alone the rest of the muslim world.

Many Muslims, conservative and orthodox themselves, do not like or approve of wahhabism because it would consign about 80% of the muslim population as deviants.

whereas Islam is heterodox, egalitarian with no religious hierarchy - to the wahhabi only one way is allowed and they do not ALLOW for the differences of opinion that are present within sunni islam.

like the shia, the wahhabis are trying to assert their leadership of islam not based on the egalitarian ideals but based on an idea of Arab imperialism, specifically, saudi imperialism. the shia built love of the family of the prophet (pbuh) into a vast edifice that makes sunni muslims uncomfortable with the idea of infallibility and automatic authority.

and the wahhabis though they war with the shias also use that type of argument. and many muslims balk at that tone alone - north african muslims, sub saharan muslims, european muslims, south asian, and south east asian muslims did and still do not kowtow to the Saudis and this was never a part of Islam - why now after 1400 years of no clergy? - though the Wahhabis would have it so.

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 20:17:10

How many people do you know who have grown up in a Muslim country, as an atheist, and wealthy? As opposed to how many others you know who have grown up as Muslims in a Muslim country and were not wealthy?

I know many hundreds of wealthy and poor people from Muslim countries, very few of whom are atheists, regardless of financial situation.

There is of course a positive correlation between higher education and lack of religious belief, and of course wealthy people are in general better educated, but this is no different than in Christian countries.

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 20:17:11

i agree all muslims that i know especially arab muslims hate the Saudi's. The Arab spring uprising was not about people wanting a more rigid islamic regime it was about wanting to be able to not have a governement that is corrupt and dictates how they live and how religious they can or can not be. it is still early days to tell if it has been a sucess but countries that have over thrown their givernments have not over night changed to fundemental islamic states as predicted by some

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 20:18:24

"Even the start of Islam was terrifying, unable to separate the violence and war from the religion"

Like the Crusades, you mean?

MamaMary Tue 06-Nov-12 20:23:25

Cote, I don't know much about the start of Islam, but the Crusades was not the start of Christianity.

Peterpan101 Tue 06-Nov-12 20:23:53

As has been mentioned many times (on this thread and in general), this is not about Islam, but it is a problem that is endemic to all cultures that still 'live in the past'.

I have been to many countries where Islam was either the majority religion or was a 'significant minority'. In all of them the way the Koran was interpreted directly related to whether it was Europe, Asia or Africa. The Koran as with the Bible was interpreted according to the Zeitgeist.

My Muslim Moroccan & Kosovar friends are just as shocked by these occurrences as us. Hindu and Buddhist acquaintances I've known in India......might not be?? It's all about the parent culture.

cantspel Tue 06-Nov-12 20:29:05

The crusades had nothing to do with the start of christanity. They were a series of religious wars to free Jerusalem from Muslim rule after the fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Turks.

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 20:29:42

cantspel - re "in islam they only have a mans interruption of a 2 thousand year old book"

You meant "interpretation" and "1400" year old book, I assume.

"hence you get women in saudi put to death for being victims of rape or women unable to divorcee violent and abusive men"

You get that in Saudi Arabia because they are a bizarro fascist cult. If you knew anything at all about Islam, you would know that is not the practice of Muslim countries in general. You might even know that even in Mohammad's time, 1400 years ago, Islam gave women the right to divorce their husbands. Not just when the husband is violent and abusive, but also when she just feels like it.

As others have said, SA's Wahhabism isn't Islam. It is a fundamentalist fringe sect abhorred by the majority of Muslims worldwide. Some people think SA represents Islam because all they know on these subjects are sensationalist headlines from the likes of Daily Fail.

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 20:32:33

I was pointing out that "terrifying, unable to separate the violence and war from the religion" applied to Christianity as well, as evidenced by the Crusades. I'm aware that this wasn't at the beginning of Christianity.

GothAnneGeddes Tue 06-Nov-12 20:34:27

Urrgh! Where to start.

Saudi Arabia is not all of the Islamic world. Whahabism remains a small sect.

Also, a country with lots of Muslims in it does not equal a country ruled by Islam.

Syria had/has a secular govt and they have brutally oppressed the people throughout their rule.

The big problem is that people assume any problems a Muslim has is because they are Muslim. Politics, culture, economics, education all get ignored and forgotten.

I'm not having that India is some shining beacon for women's rights. This is a country where girls are murdered in vast numbers before they are even born, where widows are ostracised, families ruined due to dowry demands and "eve teasing" is endemic.

Also, Muslims, clerical and non have repeatedly spoken out against domestic violence.

There are also orgs like Southall Black Sisters, Karma Nirvana, WISE Muslim women... google "Muslim women domestic violence" and you will find a lot of work that is happening to combat this.

But hardly anyone on these sorts of threads ever does want to google. sad

Peterpan101 Tue 06-Nov-12 20:38:18

GothAnne, Quite!

PosieParker Tue 06-Nov-12 20:40:45

I was saying that it wasn't Cote.

pinkoyster Tue 06-Nov-12 20:42:36

Goth, what a great post.

I think I'd respect people more if they just came out and specifically stated their anti-muslim rhetoric rather than dressing it up as an AIBU..

FreudiansSlipper Tue 06-Nov-12 20:42:44

why use google when the Daily Mail has so many articles on Islam and what Muslims are really like

cantspel Tue 06-Nov-12 20:47:01

From the top of my head Yemen, Pakistan, sudan and Iran all have the death penalty for adultery.

Giving someone the right to divorcee if a man then agrees they can. A woman needs to petition for divorcee and show cause and a man doesn't. Why the difference if women's rights are so important in islam?

But agin this thread has been side tracked. I have no problem if people choose islam in a free society but i do object when it is made out to be something really wonderful for women's rights or islam is forced upon people by the regime they are born under.

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 20:47:12

Prohibition in the 20th century was attempted by many western countries link here, because of the campaigning of strong temperance movements.

1907 to 1948 in Prince Edward Island, and for shorter periods in other provinces in Canada
1907 to 1992 in Faroe Islands; limited private imports from Denmark were allowed from 1928
1914 to 1925 in Russia and the Soviet Union
1915 to 1922 in Iceland (beer was still prohibited until 1989)[6]
1916 to 1927 in Norway (fortified wine and beer also prohibited from 1917 to 1923)
1919 in Hungary (in the Hungarian Soviet Republic, March 21 to August 1; called szesztilalom)
1919 to 1932 in Finland (called kieltolaki, "ban law")
1920 to 1933 in the United States

however all those countries repealed the laws because of widespread smuggling, government desire to raise tax revenue and unrest because citizens saw them as draconian.

Islam was far more successful in enforcing teetotalism because it makes it a compact between the individual and God, not between the individual and the state, or the individual and his family. it is much harder to ignore the All Seeing, All Knowing God than to ignore the censure of your wife and children, or of the criminal proceedings of the state.

"crescentmoon you can put as many draconian laws in place that you want but the simple fact is drinking, drug taking gambling etc are not limited to western society but in a more liberal society women have the protection of the civil law to protect them but in islam they only have a mans interruption of a 2 thousand year old book hence you get women in saudi put to death for being victims of rape or women unable to divorcee violent and abusive men."

the population of Saudi Arabia is 25 million out of the 1.4 billion muslims around the world. why should i answer for them or be judged by them or because of them? in the first place they are a small minority sect, very visual and very noisy, but they hold no attraction for Muslims because they are extreme and many Muslims themselves oppose that.

even within Saudi Arabia itself there are many individuals, men as well as women, who are trying to reduce the power of the royal family and the religious authority - an unholy alliance that launched the Saud family into leadership.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 20:53:03

The Muslim on Muslim terrorism around the world (seen in every single country where there are Muslims) is Saudi sponsored and has the aim of silencing moderate Muslim voices and putting an end to all interpretations of Islam that do not conform to strict fundamentalism. It makes no difference that SA is just SA, or that Wahhabism is just one sect in just one place (actually it is not in just one place -- it is everywhere). SA has billions to spend on mosques and cleric-training, printing of pamphlets and books and sponsoring of websites.

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 20:53:51

"Giving someone the right to divorcee if a man then agrees they can."


Did you not understand my previous post when I said that Islam gave women the right to divorce their husbands even when he is perfectly nice, if they just feel like it?

Btw I live in a Catholic country and until a few years ago, it wasn't possible to divorce one's husband because you just don't love him anymore. You had to prove fault. I wonder why none of you were up in arms against Christianity then.

mathanxiety Tue 06-Nov-12 20:55:59

The places where Islam has been most successful in enforcing its edicts on alcohol are those places where Islam and state go hand in glove -- SA for instance.

'Islam' (a force which does not exist as an organisation) has not been successful. SA and the Morality Police have been. It takes an unholy alliance to make a ban on alcohol successful.

CoteDAzur Tue 06-Nov-12 20:58:35

What are you talking about re "Islam hasn't been successful but SA has"?

What is a "successful" religion, in your opinion?

Peterpan101 Tue 06-Nov-12 20:59:20

Crescentmoon, again its the culture where the Islam is being interpreted decides on the law they want to interpret. West African Muslims I have known are more than happy to have a drink, as long as its not Friday (although that sometimes slips as well) or they're going to pray under the influence.

East African Muslims, Egyptian and Sudanese keep their drinking hidden (they're more afraid of their friends views than Allah). But drink they still do. My experience in Oman tells me that the hotel bars wouldn't be doing such a brisk trade without Omani patrons either.

Saudi Arabia....different matter as the laws are more vigorously enforced by MAN not god. But they still drink with the westerners in the know. Or they fly west!

Prohibition whether man made or 'gods' isn't worth a jot!

crescentmoon Tue 06-Nov-12 21:38:04

i said Islam was more successful in enforcing teetotalism than other Prohibition movements, not that it eradicated alcohol consumption completely. alot of that was based on the fact that when those countries saw how much money that could be made by taxing beers, wine and spirits they repealed the laws. money was more important than social harmony.

there is much debate about what hijab constitutes in different muslim countries. as many muslim women do not wear the headscarf as wear it.

But what is unequivocal across the Muslim world are the prohibitions on alcohol, gambling, drugs, sex outside marriage, breaking of ties of kinship. These are unambiguous prohibitions in Islam- from one end of the Muslim world to the other there is no disagreement that Islam bans those substances and behaviours. There are no exceptions to these prohibitions, not wealth or poverty, not male or female, not strong or weak. if people dont observe them it is out of weakness, not because they believe they are 'allowed'.

i would say a far greater percentage of muslim women do not wear hijab because they believe it is not required than percentage of muslims who do not observe the ban on alcohol and other vices.

it is not fear of his wife's wrath but of God's wrath that keeps a muslim man from those vices. it means a muslim woman saves time and energy in her marriage by not needing to negotiate with her husband what is an acceptable quantity to drink, or acceptable amount to 'have a flutter on', or acceptable number of evenings spent 'high', or acceptable length of time spent watching porn on the computer. because its all forbidden anyway!

killjoy? boring? it removes alot of the potential sources of instability to allow a stable and peaceful environment to run family life and grow children up in.

Peterpan101 Tue 06-Nov-12 21:49:34

Completely disagree. Take a trip to Kosovo. A majority Muslim country leading a very western way of life. Lets leave all the other 'westernised Islamic' countries for another day.

And please don't pull the "religion makes you moral" line here. We are talking about burning your daughter because she looked at a man who she wasn't related to.

If any 'merciful god' even existed.....doing such an action would inevitably be against his/her edict!.....this is man/woman oppressing their own!! Simples!!

Frontpaw Tue 06-Nov-12 21:50:39

You may divorce your hubby... But the children remain 'his'. Even if you do keep them with you, should you re-marry, they go back to daddy - even if he is an alcoholic bully. Yes, in an Islamic country. And as a woman, your testimonial is worth 1/4 of a man - so if raped, you would need another 3 women as witnesses.

I know people brought up (and some still live) in an Islamic country - which had a revolution (headed by hardline outsiders). They turmed the clock back. From a country that prided itself in its history, art, culture, music... Religions and foreigners lived there side by side (mainly peacibly).

It went to women swathed in black, and teenage boys given roles as 'moral police'. Men hung in public for homosexuality. Women jailed for being raped. All hidden behind religion. After all, you can argue a mere man is wrong, but if he puts on religious garments and tells you that god says he is right, then who can stand against him?
The econony is shot because the twits runing the country.

The people who hate this regime most are those who have lived in it seen what it does. The only people I have met personally who bang on about how they want to live in an Islamic state, haven't really lived in one. They believe that the west is corrupt, women are Hollywood-style slappers and everyone drinks themselves into a drunken stupor and shag their neighbours - and believe that they are Right.

Yes, religion is like Communism. All very nice in theory, but doesn't quite equate to everyone living happily ever after. We all need to live in a world where we treat everyone as a brother or sister in humanity, not religion. There is no 'them and us'.

MamaMary Tue 06-Nov-12 21:54:14

You're right: it's easy to google. Google 'gender gap' and find this:

The Gender Gap Report examines four critical areas of inequality between men and women in 130 economies around the globe, over 93% of the world’s population:

1. Economic participation and opportunity – outcomes on salaries, participation levels and access to high-skilled employment
2. Educational attainment – outcomes on access to basic and higher level education
3. Political empowerment – outcomes on representation in decision-making structures
4. Health and survival – outcomes on life expectancy and sex ratio

The 2009 report by the World Economic Forum has listed predominantly Islamic nations in the bottom of their annual Global Gender Gap (GGG) Index. This included such major nations as Pakistan (ranked 132 out of 134), Saudi Arabia (ranked 130 out of 134), Iran (ranked 128 out of 134), Egypt (ranked 126 out of 134), and Turkey (ranked 129 out 134). Yemen, which is 99 percent Islamic, was the bottom ranked nation as 134 on the Global Gender Gap Index. The only nation not predominantly Islamic in the bottom of the Global Gender Gap index was Benin.

The bottom 10 index nations (excluding Benin), which are all predominantly Islamic nations, represent a population of over half a billion individuals. These include Yemen (134 out of 134), Chad (133), Pakistan (132), Saudi Arabia (130), Turkey (129), Iran (128), Mali (127), Egypt (126), Qatar (125), Morocco (124). If women represent half of the population in these nations, then these bottom 10 predominantly Islamic nations demonstrate the ongoing oppression of an estimated 250 million women.

All of the predominantly Islamic nations referenced in these calculations are members of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC). The OIC rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR), and has created its own version of a human rights document, “the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights” that stipulates that “All the rights and freedoms stipulated in this Declaration are subject to the Islamic Shari’a” and that “The Islamic Shari’a is the only source of reference for the explanation or clarification to any of the articles of this Declaration.”

Not just SA, then is it?

OldMumsy Tue 06-Nov-12 22:02:56

Frontpaw, exactly. And MamaMary, this is proof that Islam which means Submission, is quite toxic for women.

CrescentMoon and a few other would argue black is white and that a burka is really quite liberating, but this is a total crock.

Peterpan101 Tue 06-Nov-12 22:03:26

Crescent I forgot to say....does the "stable and peaceful environment to run family life and grow children up in" extend to living with the anxiety and fear of being told that you are not worshiping right.

That was a complaint made to me by an Egyptian friend before the Arab spring. My Kosovar drinking buddy views his religion as most UK citizens view theirs......"a general guide invented by ignorant men.....your round Peter".

All religions I have been exposed to are oppressive to some extent or another.....the more western your country the more they have been molded to suit the modern Zeitgeist.

Sorry to press you on this and I don't mean to offend. But its man who shapes world events.....not supernatural personalities.

Peterpan101 Tue 06-Nov-12 22:06:49

MamaMary....I bow to your superb goggle skills.

GothAnneGeddes Tue 06-Nov-12 23:51:36

What is an "Islamic" nation? Is it a nation with religious law? Or is it a nation with lots of Muslims in it, because the two are not the same.

Again, interesting that the world's most populous Muslim majority nation - Indonesia, doesn't feature in that list.
Nor does Malaysia.

I get so tired of this nonsense. You just see Muslims as cardboard cut out people "over there", half the people on here probably think pan-Arabism is a cuisine!

The situation in a country is not just about religion, it never is.

Yemen, for example has had a secular leader for years (before he was kicked out) and there have been frequent outbreaks of violence between various factions, and I mean various, everything from communists to religious hardliners for years, with all the social, economic problem that political instability causes.

But yeah, it must be all because of Islam hmm

Also, note the sponsors of the GGG are the World Economic Forum who cosy up to the likes of the IMF, which causes global misery to line the pockets of the rich. Care to use your superb google skills on that anyone?

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 02:55:57

GothAnn: condemning "honour" killings is not the same as condemning Islam. Isn't that the point? That Islamic teaching is one of peace and supposedly it was one of the earliest of "today's" religions (barring goddess worship connumities) to instal some women's rights and equality as central?

I thought this thread started with the premise that "honour" killing (and other women's exploitation), while it it written in the Koran, is at the same time opposed to its central message of peace.

That's the whole point. There's no point saying, honour killing happens in India, yes we know, or not all Muslims are violent murderers, yes we know thanks for that.

If you want to defend Islam, lovely. If you want to defend violence carried out in its name, here's your space.

GothAnneGeddes Wed 07-Nov-12 03:32:18

1) Honour Killing is absolutely NOT defended or encouraged in the Qur'an or Islamic teachings.

2) The point of my posts was not to defend Islam (I don't feel I need to), but critique the narrow viewpoint people were espousing about Muslims and Muslim majority countries.

If you're going to address me, I think you should at least engage with what I've actually written, not what you think I've written.

mathanxiety Wed 07-Nov-12 05:46:58

Why would a group of imams go to pains to correct wrong interpretations of the Koran unless someone had acted in the name of the Koran? In this case, the killing of four daughters and a first (bigamous) wife by the father of the girls, their brother and the second (bigamous) wife.

'Thirty-four imams belonging to the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, including a handful of American members, signed the fatwa in an effort to counter misinterpretations of the Koran, they said...'

'...So if anybody is thinking that honour killing is allowed in Islam, or domestic violence is okay or misogyny is okay, we are saying no, you are dead wrong,” he said Saturday in announcing the measure.' - Syed Soharwardy, Imam.

Unless they were countering an opinion that was current in the Muslim community wrt killing female family members, family honour, the entitlement of men to beat their wives, etc., why speak in those terms?

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 06:50:39

"Honour Killing is absolutely NOT defended or encouraged in the Qur'an or Islamic teachings."

I thought that was the whole point of the question "why do so many happen in Islamic countries".

I wouldn't hold up Malaysia or Indonesia as beacons of women's empowerment. Did you mean to do that?

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 07:36:47

When killing one's child is because of shame, in ONE culture, then one must look at the culture.

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 07:40:04

"Why would a group of imams go to pains to correct wrong interpretations of the Koran unless someone had acted in the name of the Koran?"

we're damned if we do and damned if we dont.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 07:40:40

The fact that it's cultural removes any spurious protection for oppression / removal of women's rights accorded by religious status. The nonsense of the niqab needs to be challenged.

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 07:49:28

people say 'why dont they speak out against it', you've got a bunch of imams doing that, schooled in religious texts and scripture, they are addressing the blurred line between religion and culture. and you still find something to sour it.

The prejudices of ignorance are more easily removed than the prejudices of interest; the first are all blindly adopted, the second willfully preferred.
- George Bancroft

when a white man kills his wife and children it is not extrapolated to damn all white men or british or american culture. the media even sometimes almost tries to find excuses for what could have driven him to the edge. perhaps his wife was seeing another man iv seen insinuated sometimes. 'going postal' is a white man phenomenon, but we do not say it is proof of the inherent violence of white men.

but an individual from another race, especially if he Muslim, why then, all of those men are woman haters and child killers.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 07:51:52

You are ignoring the fact that these things are done in the name of religion. They may be cultural but it's the perpetrators who attach religious significance to it. Seriously stop defending it.

Frontpaw Wed 07-Nov-12 09:11:12

Crescent isn't defending it - and I haven't read it all - but isnt condemning it. It isn't helpful if someone says to me 'your brother is a twit' and I say 'well the man next door is a bigger idiot!'.

It is a cultural thing which cowers behind religion. Yes, there are places where the 'council' (male elders) can decree a 'religious' punishment to a crime (stoning, rape...). It happens and is done in the 'name' of religion. Other religions don't do this. In the UK punishment is done on behalf of the state and not on behalf of the CofE. Laws can be challenged and changed - this is more tricky if someone, desperate not to lose power, says 'God tells me I am 100% right and you can go to hell if you contradict me'.

I worked somehwere where we had to consult on Islamic law. We had a committee of about half a dozen learned men (sadly no women) on the laws of Islam (lecturer, mullah, lawyer...). They were each very different in culture, etiquette, race... They were all very polite, kind and shook my hand, took refreshents offered and spoke respectfully to everyone there. Would this happen in some other countries? Probably not. I have also worked in a place where certain people refused to shake hands, accept a glass of water touched by a non-believer or eat a biscuit from a plate (risk of contamination).

The interpretation of gods law by men is just bloody weird sometimes.

GothAnneGeddes Wed 07-Nov-12 09:23:01

I would've thought it went without saying that myself and crescentmoon think honour killings are wrong.

But you've got Brycie who can't read, claiming we're defending them.

math saying no one condemn's them and then still not liking it when people not only condemn them, but disassociate those actions from the religion.

Then you've got "anecdotes" of the sort of behaviour I've never come across or heard about, I've never heard of Muslims refusing to share food with non-believers. Never.

This thread is bullshit. It's just an excuse to vent prejudices and view Muslims as a lower form of life and considering the west's huge fondness for killing Muslims, that gives me the creeps.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 09:27:32

A religion that supports jihad against those that even draw a picture of Mohammed and defend the protests against drawings or films is never going to fit into the vision of a free world.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 09:27:40

Really? Because there's an awful lot of yes - but people in western countries kill each other too.

Now that's a bullshit defence of honour killing.

It is NOT an excuse to vent prejudice - the thread title asks WHY is there "honour killing" in Islamic countries when Islam doesn't justify it.

That's the opposite of prejudice. But then, you see what you want to see.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 09:40:20

Goth you have a weird scale of what gives you the creeps.

Frontpaw Wed 07-Nov-12 10:34:08

'view Muslims as a lower form of life and considering the west's huge fondness for killing Muslims,' oh pur-leeze.

Listen to yourself. Man kills man. Christians kill Muslims, other christians, aethiests... not necessarily in the name of Christ though. Muslim men orchestrated 911 in the name of religion - so do we mistrust all men, or muslims or all men with beards?

Why do people try to argue in such black or white terms? Its not religion - its what people do in it's name. And sadly it is making 'normal' people shout 'you're all terrorists/supressed/evil' and 'you're all slags/ homosexuals/addicts/evil' - all together now 'YOU ate going to hell, but we're not because God is on our side!'

This is from Britains. Who live side by side, work together, are educated together... This is the deviceiveness and wickedness that is created by 'the bad men'. Not god, allah, jehova...

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 10:56:28

some on here really need to read the bible if they want to keep quoting what the Koran says. Most Muslims recognise that whe the Koran came about life was very different they still practise their religion but see what was relevant then is not now. I have yet to meet a Muslim that has more than one wife (before Islam men coud have as many as they wished), I have yet to meet a Muslim who has had an arranged marriage unless they are from an Asian background (cultural) I have yet to meet a Muslim that supports honour killings.

if someone tells you they are catholic do you believe they support the church covering up abuse, support pro lifers attacking abortion clinics, are IRA members, do you believe that Christians believe the crusades was acceptable in the name of christianity

This thread really do show up the narrow mindness of how people perceive Muslims. No one on here is denying that there are problems but some can not seem to separate abuse that is done in the name of religion that the vast majority of muslims who are as alarmed and disgusted as we are. and the millions suffering because of other issues poverty, lack of healthcare and education, corrupt and cruel regimes that keep people down these are the real problems

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 11:05:27

in my first post i did talk about honour crimes in the UK....

"as for the honour crimes done by non whites in the UK. of the middle eastern ones they are committed by kurdish families. many of then non religious kurdish families so i assert it is more to do with their culture than their religion. i have read of iranian kurds, iraqi kurds, turkish kurds, but not of iranians and arabs unless someone can post an article.

and for the asians, as has been stated earlier, indian sikhs and hindus also commit this crime, and there are large sri lankan muslim communities in the uk that do not commit honour crimes."

this thread is linking honour killings directly to Islam the religion and then going on to say that Islam the religion itself is woman hating.

i am saying honour killings are to do with culture. it is not only muslims who commit honour crimes, and then many muslims are as unfamiliar with it as non Muslims. and of the muslims who come from those cultures that do honour killings, it is also abhorrent to them - it is an aberrant and abhorrent behaviour.

There are large parts of the muslim world that find honour killings alien to their practise of religion. there are middle eastern christians and druze - druze not jews - who commit honour killings against their daughters as well as middle eastern muslims. of middle eastern honour killings in the UK iv only read of Kurdish families that commit honour crimes, unless someone says otherwise. as for asian honour killings, there are asian Sikhs and hindus who also carry out honour killings alongside the pakistani muslims who do it.

For Muslims of South east asia, for muslims of sub saharan africa, the balkans, even parts of south asia like Sri Lanka honour killings are as incomprehensible as to a person in Europe.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 11:12:11

This thread contrasts what the Qran says with what some Muslims do in its name. It is a cultural phenomenon and it's carried out in the name of religion. So you can't ignore the religion when you talk about it.

MamaMary Wed 07-Nov-12 11:52:04

this thread is linking honour killings directly to Islam the religion and then going on to say that Islam the religion itself is woman hating.

No, this thread is not doing that. I think most posters have recognised that honour killings are cultural. However, some people can't help but also note that a lot of the cultures happen to have Islam as their religion.

No one has said that the religion itself is woman-hating. Some people however have noted that many Islamic nations, particularly fundamentalist ones that take a great deal of pride in their close following of the religion, are nations in which women are brutally oppressed. I refer you again to the gender gap statistics.

crescentmoon I fear you and others are in your defence of Islam simply mis-reading what posters are saying.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 12:24:49

I think the issue is that Islam has had no 'reformation', no period where they have reflected and altered, unlike Christianity. Muslims take their own religion way too seriously and expect the rest of the world to do the same.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 12:33:20

Jesus in comparison to Mohammed is a peaceful and non violent man, let's look at adultery Jesus talked of he who cast the first stone, Mohammed ordered the woman to be stoned to death.

With such a violent beginning it's no wonder few see Islam as a religion of peace.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 12:49:15

Most religions by now are not so brittle and can take criticism, Islam has no period of enlightenment.

am loving Douglas Murray here

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 12:55:17

Have you spoke to every Muslim to gain that piece of knowledge? Obviously by your statement you have

Frontpaw Wed 07-Nov-12 12:56:40

I know muslims with arranged marriages. I also know a christian with one too.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:01:06

It gets a little dull when people align themselves as part of a group unless part of that group is criticised and then they are separate. No accountability but enjoying the safety of numbers.

You can't rejoice in the rise of Islam but then say fundamentalism has nothing to do with me, it's too slippery.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:01:31

I don't know any Christians sent to a country where they are married off, do you?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 13:11:28

In some asian countries arranged marriages are common place regardless what religion you are

So every catholic was in support of the ira. All Italian Catholics have to answer for the abuse of the Irish catholic church after all they are both catholic

GothAnneGeddes Wed 07-Nov-12 13:11:55

Here we go. Posie will tell us that Muslims aren't allowed on these threads soon because we're brainwashed/don't agree with her.

brycie- yes, because demonising a people and painting them as subhuman has never lead to anything bad has it? hmm

It is also creepy the way some of you are seething with hatred and disgust towards Muslims yet I'm sure you'd be oh so polite if you ever met a Muslim.

I go about my business, I work in a valuable job, I think I'm generally a decent member of society. Like a lot of Muslims. But that still wouldn't stop bigots like Posie only seeing my headscarf and thinking vile things about me and my loved ones.

And before you start, most Muslims do not seethe with hatred at non-Muslims.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:13:18

Oh here we go GAG avoiding the issues and turning the debate into 'poor Muslims' we're victims of Islamophobia and people aren't allowed to criticise us, but no not us as we're not us, oh no yes we are....

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 13:13:48

lets talk about slippery Posie. Christianity itself spread by the sword

asides from the Aksum state there is not a single non European Christian country that became so without having been colonised by the western european countries.

the colonialists in the 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th centuries spread Christianity by the sword and the gun. because it was a great religion for the purpose of colonising others.

for the European himself the only teachings he took of Jesus was that 'he died so that your sins were already forgiven' but for the people they wanted to conquer they taught them the christianity of 'jesus turned the cheek' and jesus 'prayed for his enemies' and jesus 'bared his neck to the enemies blow'. all about SUBMITTING in mind and body to their conquerors.

did the english bare their necks to their enemies blows? isnt that criminal to teach a people who have violence done against them that it is piety to submit to the one who steals and throws you off your land?

dont forget how powerful the imagery of a White God and a White Jesus was to those colonised peoples who were naturally to connect divinity with the European.

Jomo Kenyatta, the first president of Kenya after independence said..

"When the white man came to africa, we had the land and they had the bible. then they told us to look upto God, and when we lookd back down, they had the land, and we had the bible".

contrast that with the spread of Islam, where large parts of the non-arab muslim world became muslim without feeling the tread of arab armies or arab kings. instead spread by traders, sailors, sufi saints.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:15:30

Yes Catholics are responsible for the covering up of paedophilia and have to look within to find out why all these men managed to do this protected by the church.

And GAG noone has said or implied that they hate Muslims, see that's how you stifle intelligent debate GAG. Many have criticised Islam and I think they have done so in a fair way.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:16:32

Perhaps you are mistaking me for a Christian, or one who feels that they would like to defend Christianity. I do think it's a lesser evil, granted, but I in no way support it.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:17:30

Can you name some countries where Islam spread with peace?

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 13:20:20

Poise you have made a statement of how all Muslims feel hmm You keep posting things that yes do happen In Some muslim societies but also happen in non muslim societies yet you fail to recognise the the vast majority of Muslims are as appalled by honour killings as you are you do not want to believe that why I am not sure

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:22:27

Sorry where have I posted anything about honour killings and ALL muslims? I'm saying it's foolish to think when something happens in any culture/society/religion that people do not look within it to find the cause.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 13:22:37

All catholics are responsible then. The little old lady in southern Italy is as responsible as those that supported the ira financially in the states for committing terrorist acts ok that makes things very simple

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:24:19

EG. The fact that white girls were groomed by Muslim men, in gangs, in the North means the Muslim culture has questions to answer.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 13:24:23

But the is nothing I Islam that supports honour killings there is in some cultures

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:24:46

"Can you name some countries where Islam spread with peace?"

Can you name some countries where Christianity spread with peace? (Hoping you will not count colonisation and slave trade as "peaceful")

People don't usually want to change their religion unless they have to. It is not the fault of Islam or any other religion. It is just people's stubborn adherence to their dogma of choice.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:24:50

All Catholics? Yes. Everyone has a duty to question the church.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 13:25:35

so my Sri lankan cousins who are Muslim need to look within their culture to find the answer ok I shall give them a call

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:25:40

Here we go - defence by attacking what was done in the name of Christianity in the past.

Was that wrong? Why yes it was. We can see that now. We have advanced. Hence why we condemn it when we see it in other cultures in the name of religion.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:27:49

"I think the issue is that Islam has had no 'reformation', no period where they have reflected and altered, unlike Christianity. Muslims take their own religion way too seriously and expect the rest of the world to do the same."

I have said that a number of times on previous threads. I'm glad that you have understood and assimilated it smile

Islam has come 600 years after Christianity. It will also have its Enlightenment but probably not before things get heavier and darker yet.

These things have to run their courses.

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 13:28:28

Islam and Christianity had their swords pointed in different directions - Islam towards its beginning, Christianity after its beginning.

there were no arab kings or arab armies in timbuktu, in jakarta, in delhi, in Male, in Xinjiang, those muslims ruled themselves and answered to themselves, not to any kind of arab army or arab imperialism.

thats whats alien about the Wahhabis, that they are trying to project that because they are in control of Mecca and Madinah that they are naturally on the correct mode of practise and so people must get with them or else.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:29:11

Brycie - Was that to me?

I wasn't attacking Christianity. I was showing that spread of religion through war is a characteristic of how religion is generally spread and that Islam is not singularly egregious in this respect.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:29:52

In the meantime we can condemn and not tolerate, not make excuses, not condone, not allow it in the UK, not appease, not in any way attempt to defend it on the grounds that white people/Christians/insert religion culture here also carried out crimes in the name of religion.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:30:23

Cote. It is not an either or, I thought I'd made that pretty clear.

Until Constantine I cannot think of that much violence, unlike the early days of Islam.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:30:40

No not you Cote CrescentMoon. My last comment was though. Sort of.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:30:56

Also re spread of Islam through the sword - Why do you think Eastern Europe has remained Christian despite a long Ottoman rule?

That doesn't fit in with your ideas of scary Muslims warring to spread their religion, does it?

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:32:03

Posie - So what exactly is your point? That all religions have at one time or another taken up the sword?

Does it really matter that Islam did this in the beginning and Christianity did it a bit later?

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:32:21

The Ottomans were moderate , hence the gorgeous carpets covered with pictures of people and animals grin

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:33:09

Brycie - What is your last comment (to me) about? If it is about honor killings, of course we all condemn them. Surely that wasn't so hard to understand?

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:34:28

It's defenders of Islamic culture that brought up the history. Although there was no need to defend it on this thread (or at all really) - what this is about is honour killings happening here and now. I can't be bothered with quotation marks.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:35:22

Ottomans were not "moderate". Yet they didn't care to spread the religion by force.

And pictures of people and animals doesn't make a place "moderate". Was that meant to be a joke?

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:35:30

Yes it is hard when the line goes : yes it's bad but Christians did bad things too. give them time they'll get over it

That's appeasement, I don't like it.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:36:39

As a person who was fortunate to be born in the UK to parents without faith, I say as I see. I cannot see Islam as a religion of peace and Christianity is a joke. The two religions are the ones I come across most in my life and see Christianity as a bit happy clappy and Islam as very very rigid and frightening. When I see women in 2012 in the UK in Burkas and little girls in hijabs, groups of men hanging about the streets, Muslim men having called me a white slag and so on. What am I supposed to think? Christians don't have honour killings over here, that I've ever heard of, or practice FGM and whilst I accept that these things are not necessarily from Islam they are born out of a culture that takes it's guidance from Islam.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:36:44

It was meant to be more light-hearted - modern Islamic art can be very tortured with heads slashed off sculptures in artistic frustration at not being allowed to depict human form.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:37:12

"Islamic culture"? What is that? hmm

There is Indian culture. There is Turkish culture. These are as distinct and separate as Mexican and Russian cultures.

There is no such thing as "Islamic culture".

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:38:20

"What am I supposed to think? "

You are supposed to think.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:39:20

"not being allowed to depict human form"

Not true. Muslims don't depict Mohammad. They can depict whoever else they want.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:39:46

Well I have and have come to my own conclusions.

Do you mean to be so rude and patronising?

And of course there's Islamic culture, it is culture that uses Islam as it's base.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:40:55
PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 13:41:20

So oh oracle of Islam, as you apparently lived in a n Islamic country for two minutes, what do you think the problem of Islam is and why so many find it completely intolerable?

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:43:01

There. Is. No. Such. Thing. As. "Islamic culture".

There is Islamic art, just like there is Christian art.

There is no Islamic culture, just like there is no Christian culture.

Culture is something that ethnic groups or nations share. It is not something shared by billions of people living all over the world, speaking different languages, with different histories and backgrounds.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:43:46

"Not true. Muslims don't depict Mohammad. They can depict whoever else they want. "

You're getting mixed up between the religion and the culture. Like the modest dressing thing and the niqab. One is religion, one is culture (as you no doubt know - grandma's / egg sucking etc apologies for that)

There's a strong tradition in strands of Islamic arts/culture of not depicting the human form.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 13:44:08

rude and patronising when you posie have told those that are Muslim on here what they think

There is Islam the religion and there is there are english Christians and there are japanese Christians culturally they are miles apart

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:44:30

Ho my Islamic arts/culture x posted with you.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:46:41

This is a bit semantic. My first use of "culture" was about ways of living based on Islam; my second referred to Islamic arts. Hope that clears things up - I see now why you got confused.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 13:49:43

Bit weird to say the niqab for example is not part of Islamic culture. It's Islamic and it's not required by the Qran. That makes it Islamic and cultural. Like arts inspired by Islam or frustrations arising from - not directed by the Qran but culturally associated with Islam.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:50:45

FYI Posie, I have lived in a Muslim country for almost 30 years, not two seconds.

And Brycie, I studied the Ottoman Empire in school for many years. Trust me when I say that the "beginner" on this thread is not me.

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 13:53:24

muslims had a reputation for violence by the european colonisers because they did what any self respecting people do who are invaded and they fought in self defence. and the British had trouble with them in Sudan and India, the French had trouble with them in Algeria , the Russians had trouble with them in the Caucasus. they conferred 'these muslims are violent' forgetting the hypocrisy that they came to rule over them by violence.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 13:53:32

Brycie - re "modern Islamic art can be very tortured with heads slashed off sculptures in artistic frustration at *not being allowed to depict human form*"

As you can see above, this is not about me being confused but you actually saying Muslim artists are not allowed to depict the human form. You didn't say it's "tradition and therefore part of culture", you said they are "not allowed".

And I pointed out that actually, Islam doesn't forbid the depiction of the human form.

I hope that is clearer for you now.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 14:00:32

"Bit weird to say the niqab for example is not part of Islamic culture. It's Islamic and it's not required by the Qran. That makes it Islamic and cultural. "

That doesn't even make sense!

You say it yourself that niqab (veil) is not required in the Quran, and then go on to say that makes it "Islamic".

How on earth can you call something that is NOT in the Quran, which is NOT adopted by the vast majority of Muslim women in the world, is part of of "Islamic culture"? shock

By your incredibly ignorant and twisted "reasoning", FGM is also part of "Islamic culture" - it is not required by the Quran but done in some Muslim countries because it is part of their culture!

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 14:03:09

But they think they're not allowed to depict human form. That's the point. Otherwise they wouldn't produce that kind of art. They've been taught they're not allowed to depict human form - that's Islamic cultural teaching.

Not sure if you understood or "assimilated" the point about religion and culture?

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 14:03:13

No, Islam started out violent...not invaded, they were the invaders.

Cultures that are guided and laws made from Islam are, imo, Islamic cultures.

Why is it that some Muslims insist on aligning or separating from other Muslims when it suits?

Back to honour killings, what are Muslims doing to find the root cause within Islam?

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 14:04:20

and the slave revolts in Brazil against the Portugese were led by Muslim slaves,

Male revolts

and in the carribean slave revolts by Muslim slaves against the Spanish...


so all these european colonisers, the British, the French, The Russians, the Spanish, the Portuguese began to say


PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 14:04:37

And I don't think anyone should have to kowtow to what Muslims deem offensive, I couldn't give a shit about a film or picture of Muhammed, why should I? It's all made up nonsense anyway.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 14:05:13

Cresent do you actually know about the beginnings of Islam? It was very very violent.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 14:05:19

Because the women who wear it do so because they think they are required to by Islam. I'm pretty sure they don't do it because they think it's required by Christianity or British law. So I think you'll find it does rather make sense.


It's a strand of Islamic culture. That thing that doesn't exist.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 14:06:39

How do you explain British Muslims wearing the veil if it cultural and not part of Muslim culture? And not in Quran?

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 14:09:48

I don't think the author of the piece on the Ottomans is a beginner either.

Soner Cagaptay is the Beyer Family Fellow and director of the Turkish Research Program at The Washington Institute for Near East Policy... The program conducts important research; hosts Policy Forum luncheons with guest speakers; releases numerous publications in the form of Policy Watches, Policy Notes, articles and opeds; and makes appearances in the media and Congressional hearings. In addition, they have established special programs such as the Turgut Ozal Memorial lecture series, which honors the late Turkish president by helping raise awareness of Turkish policy issues in the Washington community.. He has taught courses on the Middle East, Mediterranean, and Eastern Europe at Princeton University and Yale University. His spring 2003 course on modern Turkish history was the first offered by Yale in three decades. From 2006 to 2007, he was Ertegun Professor at the Department of Near Eastern Studies at Princeton. Currently, he is a visiting professor at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. Among his honors are the Smith-Richardson, Mellon, Rice, and Leylan fellowships, as well as the Ertegun chair at Princeton. In 2012 he was named an American Turkish Society Young Society Leader.

If it's a competition, that is.

crescentmoon Wed 07-Nov-12 14:17:37

posie, i brought up history because YOU brought up 'islam has always been violent' and tried to contrast it with Christianity with its 'Jesus meek and mild'.

as for cote, iv always been interested in Ottoman history, hence crescentmoon - but im not really an expert on it, just enjoy reading lots of Ottoman detective stories!

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 14:23:56

Jesus v Muhammed. Jesus is without question a non violent man, Muhammed is not. That was my assertion and also that the very beginning of Islam was incredibly violent and it was difficult to separate war from religion.

FreudiansSlipper Wed 07-Nov-12 14:27:43

the area of Mecca was very violent tribal wars were going on long before Islam came about. And the wearing of the niqab is in some Muslim countries is very rare

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 14:30:12

There's definitely a protest element to some strands of Islamic culture these days, the niqab being one of them, in my opinion only.

Frontpaw Wed 07-Nov-12 14:58:58

We need to look further back in history for many answers. Culture didnt start at the birth of Jesus or Mohammed. Pre Islam, in the ME there were some cutures that would bury a woamn alive for a crime.

And the food thing - it was a Jewish chap. Just demonstrating beliefs.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 18:11:30

Brycie, I agree. Much of the Muslim identity in Britain 2012 is about having a n on western identity and being separate.

GothAnneGeddes Wed 07-Nov-12 18:45:17

Posie - like you know any Muslims in real life, we've been down this road before, you don't.
That's what makes your claims to be conducting "an intelligent" debate so laughable.

Cynner Wed 07-Nov-12 18:52:39

I am sad for any Muslim poster on MN. This thread is shocking and hurtful to those of Muslim faith..

Frontpaw Wed 07-Nov-12 18:55:09

No worse than any other faith, belief or lifestyle choice.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 19:11:06

Of course I know fucking Muslims GAG, well those I know are ex Muslims who hate Islam and what they're done to their country (Iran).

It's hard to really know any Muslims when you're not one yourself unless you work alongside them as they don't tend to mix with Westerners unless they have to, where I live. That's what happens when one self identifies with a huge religious symbol, it means a barrier before you even start.

Oh and then there's the lady, who I nearly forgot, from Somalia who was upset because the men at her mosque scorned her for not forcing her daughters (3&5) to wear a hijab. And there's also a parent (white Brit convert) who has trouble with Muslims ignoring her daughter at the Mosque and shunning her because her daughter is profoundly disabled.

But no you're right I don't know any Muslims.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 19:12:15

If we look at some European history prior to religious control (I think or North Africa) we find a society that held women in high esteem and had no war for 1500 years.

Frontpaw Wed 07-Nov-12 19:26:24

Ah Iranians... Generally they do see Islam as a 'forced' foreign religion (initially and later, as Khomani was Pakistani).

They see themselves as Persian first, muslim/whatever second - distinct seperation. They look back, not with rose tinted glasses, but to a time when everyone was 'brother and sister'. It really was a beautiful country of light, culture, education and beauty - Persian - not Western or Arab. People I know there are desperate to leave - both people who remember pre-revolution and people born afterwards.

Some western cultures did revere women if you go back far enough. - bringers of life and all that. Sadly christianity and the whole Garden of Eden incident made women the cause of mans downfall (oopsy). There is another story there...

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 19:40:21

Religion in general is shite for women!

Andrew Marr's History of the world is a fabulous resource (and great for ironing to) for well erm The history of the world!!

GothAnneGeddes Wed 07-Nov-12 19:59:33

I don't wearing a hijab to be a barrier, that you do, says a lot about yourself.

I know at least one of the people you mention in your comment, she'd have far more positive things then negative to say about being a Muslim, trust you to twist the facts as always.

Cynner - thanks, but it is nothing new for round here.. Posie in particular has a fixation.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:11:49

"Of course I know fucking Muslims GAG, well those I know are ex Muslims who hate Islam and what they're done to their country (Iran)."

Ah, so you ONLY know EX-Muslim Iranians who hate Islam.

You don't know Muslims from any other country (which is probably why you think all Muslims have the same culture, called "Islamic culture" smile

You don't know any Muslims, at all. Just ex-Muslims who now hate Islam, because their country is now ruled by fundamentalist religious fanatics.

Do you really consider yourself knowledgeable enough to come tell people what Islam is and what it isn't around here, every time a thread on Islam comes up? Do you, really? shock

Cynner Wed 07-Nov-12 20:13:04

Goth, no thanks necessary. Religion baiting is nothing but a vicious game played by ignorant people. I think you have been very articulate on this thread.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:18:41

"It's hard to really know any Muslims when you're not one yourself"

Most people in that situation would listen and learn from people more familiar with the subject rather than bang on about her prejudices. But you are different, Posie.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:22:30

I know some Muslims, they're from a Love for All Hatred for None sort of sect. Does that mean I'm allowed to have an opinion? Sadly I haven't lived in a country that presumably I'm not allowed to call Islamic sad nor am I a Muslim sad . I think some people would rather one just shut up.

I can read though. I read Posie's post as far as this:

"Oh and then there's the lady, who I nearly forgot, from Somalia who was upset because the men at her mosque scorned her for not forcing her daughters (3&5) to wear a hijab. And there's also a parent (white Brit convert) who has trouble with Muslims ignoring her daughter at the Mosque and shunning her because her daughter is profoundly disabled. "

So not all former Moslems who hate Iran.

Cote: I really wouldn't go hinting that other people are ignorant right now. Did you read the article on the Ottomans?

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:23:23

"Jesus is without question a non violent man, Muhammed is not."

So what? Maybe Mohammad learnt the lesson and thought it better to fight rather than die in agony on the cross.

Jesus' unwillingness or inability to fight back didn't make Christianity a pacifist religion, so what exactly is your point?

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 20:23:45

Who on earth could anything positive to say about a religion that shuns their own daughter????

And Cote perhaps you're finding the rest of my post rather tricky to read as I think I mention two others.

And a hijab is a barrier, if you think it isn't then perhaps noone has been honest enough to say. Any 'uniform' is a barrier to some.

Funny, I think I am rather fixated by Islam and how, on earth, anyone converts in 2012 to a religion that allows them less freedom. I find it fascinating that so many people are left wanting so much so that they use God to fill a void.

I look forward to a world without religion, it will be a much nicer place.

Cote. Perhaps you shouldn't comment on anything regarding the UK as clearly you don't live here and are extremely ignorant about our culture.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 20:24:53

I am anti Islam not individual Muslims, but if it suits you to put that in some sort of compartment you carry on.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:26:45

Yes of course it's a barrier. Apart from anything else, it's supposed to be a barrier, and apart from anything else, if you aren't a Muslim, it's basically a mask.


Posy, there are very positive things to say about Islam. It's just that whenever you say anything negative about activities carried out in its name you get this huge Oh there's nothing wrong with Islam and anything that's done in its name isn't really anything to do with Islam at all.

Uh huh.

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 20:28:11

And why should I know lots of Muslims? I'm not a Muslim, the human condition means that we don't often mix with people unlike ourselves, unless forced by circumstance. That doesn't mean I can't comment upon what may or may not be happening in my part of the world, the rise of hidden women (draped in black), the number of men hanging about on the streets making me feel uncomfortable, I am a citizen of this country and have a vested interest in what happens here.

I also object to lap dancing and sex work, I don't know any lap dancers or prostitutes should I not have an opinion on them either?

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:29:53

Brycie - The problem people have with your term "Islamic country" is that it's not clear if you mean "Muslim country" (i.e. a place where most of the population is Muslim) or "Islamic government" (i.e. a place where system of government is based on the Quran & Hadith).

I don't feel like reading some article you have Googled, for the simple reason that I very much doubt that it will enhance my formal education on the history of the Ottoman Empire. If you want to say something, do please just say it.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:31:03

"I think I mention two others. "

Oooh two real live Muslim acquaintances! Your knowledge on Islam must be complete! hmm

PosieParker Wed 07-Nov-12 20:31:08

Most of the positive things to say about Islam are in the past, as is much of the religion.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:40:29

I don't think anyone is really arguing that the veil isn't a barrier. Of course, it is.

Goth must be trying to say that it doesn't prevent her from expressing herself or from being understood.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 20:42:04

posie, who gave you history lessons!?

Interesting thread.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:43:38

It's not my term "Islamic country" and you are being precious to the point of pointlessness. Most people would understand it to mean a country with a civil code largely informed by Islam. It's a shorthand. Ok? Like this is a Christian country. Not that many Christians but a civil code informed Christianity. Now THAT is not difficult to understand.

You don't want to read it because you'll find out you were probably wrong in saying the Ottomans weren't moderate!!!!!!! as if I was stupid. You've seen the credentials of the guy. It's an alternative view. If you're afraid of an alternative view then don't read it. Whatever.

Why are you even doing this? If I saw a thread on fundamentalist Christians murdering doctors who carry out abortions I wouldn't wade in and start saying yes but Muslims carried out the 9-11 attacks. I'd think, yes that's bloody awful, I don't approve or condone, I might even post that I think it's abominable or mainly I'd steer clear. There's no defence, nothing to be said that can justify it, least of all attacks on the history of other religions.

What is this oversensitivity you have?

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:44:20

Give it a rest, Posie. You are like an anti-American who has never been there, indoctrinated by Saudis who hate America.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 20:44:24

posie, for a beautiful Islam, you need to visit Egypt, Dubai, Qatar, Malaysia, Indonesia...

Your statement that there is nothing good about it anymore can be said of most religions.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:46:00

"I don't wearing a hijab to be a barrier, that you do, says a lot about yourself. "

Cote sees it as a barrier too Goth. What does that say about her.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:47:10

South east Asian countries like Malasia and Indonesia are seeing a creeping increase of Sharia. Even in Singapore, resolutely secular, has seen education battles over schoolgirls and the hijab. Not all beautiful.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:48:09

Beautiful Islam in Egypt incorporates into law the edict that a woman's testimony in court is worth half that of a man.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 20:55:49

In my opinion, honour and everything bad to go with it happen mainly where the level of education is low.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:57:40

What like the UK.

What like Osama bin Laden was poor and badly educated.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 20:58:07

It was not do long ago the suffragettes were fighting for our vote here. Change takes time. Education is the key.
It was not so long ago that black people in America had no voice. Look at it today.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:58:10

Actually the level of education is pretty low here. But not that low.

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 20:58:55

And in the meantime we can condemn and not appease it and not try to find excuses and wail "but look at the Crusades".

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 20:59:29

"Most people would understand it to mean a country with a civil code largely informed by Islam"

How many of those are there?

And were you just talking about those few countries? Or were your talking about countries with Muslims majorities?

Like the thread title - it's wrong because honor killings happen in many Muslim countries that are not Islamic.

"you were probably wrong in saying the Ottomans weren't moderate!!!!!!! as if I was stupid."

You are probably not stupid, just a bit ignorant. Which is fine. I wouldn't expect you to know anything about the Ottoman Empire.

I can think of quite a few aspects of the Ottoman Empire that were definitely not "moderate" in any modern sense of the word.

"If I saw a thread on fundamentalist Christians murdering doctors who carry out abortions I wouldn't wade in and start saying yes but Muslims carried out the 9-11 attacks."

You might, if on that thread, some idiot said "Christianity is a horrible religion, because Christians murder abortion doctors". You could point out that the same could be said of Islam, because some Muslims have carried out the 9/11 attacks. This would be your way of showing the idiocy of generalising the terrible acts of a fringe minority to an entire religion.

"There's no defence, nothing to be said that can justify it"

Assuming that you are still talking about honor killings, WHO do you think is justifying or defending them? Definitely not me.

"What is this oversensitivity you have?"

What "oversensitivity"? hmm

I know this stuff, you don't. I'm descended from Ottomans and I have studied the Ottoman Empire for years, you are trying to teach me about them, based on a few minutes of Googling.

Seriously. Get a grip, maybe.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 20:59:47

Obl exploited the poor by brainwashing them.

traipsingalong Wed 07-Nov-12 21:01:14

Before I post, I'll just list my credentials - am white British, married to Turkish muslim; lived in Turkey with him and dc for nine years.

I don't think the honour killings have much at all to do with Islam/religion, but are cultural - 'gossip' is rife, certainly in Turkey, and people don't want to be gossiped about - in fact, they will go to extraordinary lengths to avoid it, including, in some cases, killing their own family members. It is very, very important to them to be seen as fine upstanding citizens, and they round on any member of their family that is seen to let them down in that respect.

I also think the OP is indeed aligning honour killings with Islam by first stating that 'so many honour killings happen in Islamic countries' and then stating that 'Islam preaches peace'. Had the OP written, for example, 'why do so many burglaries happen in Christian countries when the Bible says thou shalt not steal', we'd all have posted immediately to say that it had nothing to do with our religion and everything to do with our greedy little society.

So the answer to the OP's question is that nobody in those countries thinks much about what their religion teaches them when they commit an honour killing. All they are thinking about is themselves and their position in whatever society, village, town or whatever that they live in.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 21:01:28

Omg, who says the Ottoman Empire was peaceful!!! Here's. really. Not even worth arguing in this as it is do wrong!!!!

Brycie Wed 07-Nov-12 21:05:16

Actually I was talking about Christian fundamentalists killing doctors who carry out terminations - quite obviously from the context. It's comparable to honour killing - carried out in the name of religion - against the central thrust of the religion, utterly damnable. That might help you a little though I'm rather suprised you didn't get it the first time.

What do you mean, how many of those? I don't know, I haven't counted. Why does the number matter? Are you disputing the definition? Why do you want me to count them? I told you what I was talking about - why are you asking me again?

Not as ignorant as someone who refuses to read an alternative view. Afraid?

The thread title didn't say that - it said Islam is a religion of peace so why do they do this. It's at the top of every page. <helpful>

I explained the oversensitivity. I don't feel the need to justify Christian fundamentalism with reference to historical "Islamic" horrors. I condemn murderous acts carried out in its name without talking about 9-11. Now do you understand.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 21:06:41

I also think that the British like to label everything and segregate it. So for example, Sikhs are Indian. When socks come up on tv, their religion is mentioned and not country. When Hindus are mentioned, they become Asian. Which of course they are, but if you are showing that A high %of educates people are from Hindus, say Hindus. Don't say Asians. Make better distinctions.
There are more Muslims in India them here are in Pakistan. However, they won't say Indian. They will say Indian Muslim or Muslim. See what I mean?! Divide and rule.

Silibilimili Wed 07-Nov-12 21:09:13


Hard day today so very tired but this debate is good!!!

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 21:09:56

traipsing - Good post.

CoteDAzur Wed 07-Nov-12 21:11:22

Brycie - I have no idea what that last post was supposed to be saying and you clearly haven't understood mine.

Peterpan101 Wed 07-Nov-12 21:18:25

I think Traipsing has summed up the whole balls please...

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 04:30:40

The hijab is supposed to be a barrier. It could not possibly have any other purpose than to be a barrier, against the eyes of other people.

Traipsing, would the gossip be as important if what was gossiped about was not what the religion valued so highly? Surely there is at the very least an overlapping of 'religion' and 'culture' that makes distinctions mere hairsplitting?

Ireland was once a place where this kind of gossip could ruin someone's life and could ruin a family's life. Hence the existence of the Magdalene laundries and the spectacle of families handing over girls to the Magdalene laundries (mentioned upthread -- many girls were committed by their own parents). The dominant RC church, which was a product of Irish society as well as being a local branch of a world wide organisation with HQ in Rome, focused minutely on 'sins of the flesh' -- anything to do with sex was considered more of a sin than murder. It was hard to know where religion ended and culture began. Just trying to illustrate my point here.

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 04:35:48

The OP's question is completely valid as far as honour killing goes. It happens. It happens in Muslim societies. It happens to women in Muslim societies (female victims far outnumber male).

The fact is, many honour killings do happen in Muslim societies or neighbourhoods. Many burglaries happen in Christian or post Christian or Christian sphere of influence countries. Which is worse, stealing a tv or pouring acid on a teenage girl?

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 09:58:38

The gossip is the point though isn't it? It's gossip about who is the most modest or controlled Muslim, and like math said usually girls. I don't recall too many cases where boys are killed, well unless they're gay and then I suspect they are at risk. The whole idea that women are the gatekeeper to the sin of men is surely linked to honour killings. I don't think it's coincidence that girls should be covered and modest and that they are also those most likely to be killed in an 'honour' killing.

I also find it odd that no poster, who self identifies as Muslim, has anything to say about this and shrugs it off as 'culture'.

THERhubarb Thu 08-Nov-12 10:07:28

Honour killings are not all that common actually but certainly where there are honour killings they exist in a culture that has deemed a woman to be a second class citizen. So you have a generation of men who have been taught that they are superior to women in every way and that a woman is guilty of sin. They seen women are their property, to do with what they please.

This is akin to abuse. Some children who are abused go on to abuse themselves but others do not.

Look at Malala Yousufzai's father. He was born and brought up in a Taliban controlled area and no doubt was fed this propaganda himself yet he choose to become a teacher in a girls school and to encourage his daughter to speak out against the Taliban.

Even in societies like this one, you still get men who see women as property. We have a high level of domestic abuse. Religion really has nothing to do with it. It's the way people are brought up and the choices they make as a rational adult. They use religion as an excuse but if religion was not there, they would still kill. Religion does not turn you into a killer, people do that.

What makes a man take his children and kill them and himself? Just to spite his ex-wife? That happens and yet no-one asks what religion he was.

THERhubarb Thu 08-Nov-12 10:09:03

Sorry, was just replying to OP. There are 16 pages of debate to wade through!

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 10:14:27

Completely agree RHU about men that kill their kids over here, and we should look at the root causes of that too.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 10:15:55

Math you're right. Cote, can you really not understand that fundamentalist Christians killing doctors because they believe their religion requires it, is comparable to honour killings carried out because people believe their religion requires it.

I'm saying - I wouldn't even begin to justify that type of murder, or deny it's connection to Christianity, by saying it's cultural, or because Muslims have killed a lot of people as well, as people are doing here about killings carried out because they consider their Islamic belief requires it.

Of course you understood my post - it was perfectly clear. Quite a lot of it was responding to yours. If you want me to spell it out ABC I will.

The culture of the UK is not one of honour killings. Yet they happen here. In Muslim familes (and I assume, caste/Hindu situations though that is just an assumption).

It is impossible to deny the connection. It is not just "culture". It's culture informed by religious belief. In the way that wearing the niqab is not required by the religion, but informed by religious belief.

Why deny this?

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 10:16:53

Apologies for the stray apostrophe. I'm tired.

thegreylady Thu 08-Nov-12 11:51:58

I know many Turkish Muslims and find them to be a tolerant and peaceable people. None of the women wear any sort of veil/headcovering all the time although some elderly ladies wear a simple head scarf on religious occasions. The men are loving towards their wives and daughters although very protective when the girls are young. It isn't Islam at fault but individual interpretations of it.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 12:35:05

Yes well not all of them

The Guardian suggests honour killings account for half of Turkey's murders.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 13:05:08

Well if some Muslims kill their daughters and some do not what does that tell you. Could it be possibly that the religion is not reason

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 13:12:44

No it doesn't Freudian. It's not just random, some do, some don't, honour, schmonour. It depends entirely if the honour killings have been informed by the religious beliefs of the murderers. If the shame is too great to bear because of the religious beliefs of the murderers.

Your "well" is very callous. In a country where the population is what, 90 per cent Muslim? (I'm sure someone will correct me), over half of murders are thought to be honour killings. This doesn't even interest or worry you in the slightest does it?

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 13:20:26

This talks about how honour killings are informed by erroneous belief

If you deny the connection presumably you see no point in websites like this? Which try to explain to Muslim readers (and the wider world) why there is no justification in the Qran? You see no reason for community outreach, appealing for help and working with mosques and madrassas and Muslim community leaders to spread this kind of clarity to congregations who might not understand?

Of course you don't. It's nothing to do with Islam. It's just to do with culture.

If you ignore the connection you can't address it properly. It's collusion, and by closing your eyes you condone it.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 13:22:30

Middle East forum

Maybe this will help the denialists.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 13:23:32

Who said it does not worry me I work with woman in regards to dv and other issues I take these issues very seriously but I see the bigger picture I will not blame religion because it is not the reason people may use religion but when the vast majority can follow a religion and not commit these crimes which are also crimes agaist Islam how can Islam be blamed

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 13:38:33

Brycie - websites saying there is no justification in Islam are using religion to overturn/counteract the cultural attitudes.

As you may or may not know, prior to Islam, it was common practice for the desert Arabs to bury their daughters alive. Then Islam came and said this was wrong and good Muslims did not bury their daughters and so the practice died out.

crescentmoon Thu 08-Nov-12 14:25:01

Consider the gender gap in the Muslim world today as mamamary posted earlier, and then imagine how abject women were in those socieities 1400 years ago. and i think, personally, who except Muhammad (pbuh) would have addressed and tried to raise the status of women and give them rights?

"When one of them is given the good news of a female child, his face becomes gloomy and he is choked with grief. He hides himself from people because of the (self-presumed) bad news given to him (and wonders): Shall he keep it despite the disgrace (he will face in the society), or put it away into the dust? In fact, evil is what they decide. Those who do not believe in the Hereafter have evil attributes, and to Allah belong the most exalted attributes. He is the Mighty, the Wise."

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 16, Verse 58-60

this verse in the Qur'an describes the news of having a daughter as 'good news' and then condemns the attitude that the people of the time had towards having daughters. keep the girl in disgrace or bury her in the dust? the Quran says both decisions are evil...

then after this later in the Qur'an it addresses female infanticide again,

"And when the girl-child that was buried alive will be asked, For what sin she was killed, And when the scrolls (of deeds) will be unrolled, And when the sky will be stripped off, And when the Hell will be set ablaze, And when the Paradise will be brought close, Then everyone will know what he (or she) has put forward."

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 81, Verse 18-14

this chapter is about the day of judgement, alot of powerful imagery, and in the middle of this mentions girl children and says they will be asked for what sin were they killed. there is a threat in this to the people who do such acts, because from islamic theology there is no sin on children. what would a child have done to be killed except have been born a girl? then the verse about Hell being set ablaze follows it.

Jesus doesnt address this because it was not in his culture, he went to a legalistic monotheistic people. Muhammad (pbuh) went to a hedonistic paganistic people who hated women so much they only allowed enough to exist to give birth to the next generation.

crescentmoon Thu 08-Nov-12 14:37:19

i often wonder how stonings and honour killings can happen when the Quran sets such a high standard of proof to accuse a woman of adultery...

"And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh)."

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 24, Verse 4

The Quran says that to accuse a woman of committing adultery 4 witnesses are needed by the accuser - so 5 people altogether - to have seen the act itself. the actual sexual intercourse itself - not just walking along on the street. not just holding hands. it is virtually impossible that people who are having an adulterous liasion will be so careless to be seen by 1 person let alone 5.
this verse was revealed because the wife of the Prophet (pbuh) became lost in the desert and a man helped her get back to the city of Madinah, and people saw them on a horse together entering the city and started to GOSSIP and SLANDER lady Aisha that she most have had an affair with him. even Muhammad (pbuh) himself was embarressed until this verse was revealed saying basically, DESIST and do not slander a woman just because she is seen in the company of a man.

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 14:42:11

How can posters here claim that honour killings are 'culture' but wearing the hijab is an expression of faith freely chosen?

CrescentMoon, it remains that imams in Canada had to spell out to N American Muslims that honour killing is against the Koran (see earlier link). Clearly there is room for more than your interpretation here. What Islam is to you is not necessarily what it is to some other people.

There are still imams blaming uncovered, immodest hussies for earthquakes. Who follows these men?

crescentmoon Thu 08-Nov-12 15:03:27

that is the high bar the Quran sets for accusing a woman of adultery - the accuser needs 4 witnesses as well as himself to have seen the act of sexual intercourse itself. so me, acquainted with those verses, say 'how on earth do these people think it is religiously ordained to do this. who on earth can manage to fulfil that criteria?'.

then, prompted by the revelation of those verses, a man went to the Prophet and asked about the situations when a womans own husband has seen her sleeping with another man but cannot produce any other witnesses except himself. this is the hadith - narration of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in Sahih Muslim so having a sound chain of narration -

"On Friday night we were staying in the mosque when one of the Ansar came there and said: If someone finds his wife with a man, and he speaks about it, you lash him, and if he kills, you kill him, and if he keeps quiet, he has to consume his anger. By Allah, I shall definitely ask about him from Allah's Messenger. On the following day he came to Allah's Messenger and asked him thus: If a man were to find a man with his wife and if he were to talk about it, you would lash him; and if he killed, you would kill him, and if he were to keep quiet, he would consume his anger. Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Allah, solve (this problem), and he began to supplicate (before Him). Then the verses pertaining to li'an were revealed: "Those who accuse their wives and have no witness except themselves" (24:6). Then he and his wife came into the presence of Allah's Messenger , and they invoked curses (in order to testify their claim). The man swore four times in the name of Allah that he was one of the truthful and then invoked a curse for the fifth time, saying: Let there be the curse of Allah upon him if he were among the liars. Then she began to invoke a curse. Allah's Messenger said to her: Just wait (and curse after considering it), but she refused and invoked a curse. When she turned away, he (Allah's Apostle) said: It seems that this woman shall give birth to a curly-haired black child. And so she did give birth to a curly-haired black child."

Hadith - Sahih Muslim #3564, Narrated Abdullah

the man is basically saying what am i supposed to do? i KNOW my wife has cheated on me. But if i speak about it, you will lash me. FOR DISHONOURING HER. and if i kill her, you will kill me FOR MURDERING HER. and if i keep quiet about it the anger will consume me. then the prophet (pbuh) prayed to God for a solution, an answer to that question and then these verses were revealed....

"And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth.
And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her)."

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 24, Verse 6-7

the Quran says a man must testify 4 times himself that his wife has cheated on him and then swear a fifth time to bring the curse of God himself if he is lying.

but right after that verse the Quran continues....

"But it shall avert the punishment from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.
And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth."

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 24, Verse 8-9

So the Quran says a woman can counter her husbands accusation and avert punishment from herself by testifying FOR HER OWN SELF and swearing by God that she did not commit adultery. whether she is lying or not, the Quran says she need only swear by God she did not sleep with someone.

so again, she can testify for herself that she did nothing wrong, thats what the Quran says. thats why i say, with confidence, it is from culture.

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 15:15:36


A high bar or a low bar -- what business is it of anyone else whether a woman has committed adultery?

The idea that it is anyone else's business is what is so alien here. It is what makes for the dangerous gossip and the fear of the dangerous gossip is what leads to the murder of women. It springs directly from the group identity aspect of the religion. The idea that the community will be involved in policing the sex lives of its members means that Muslims are group members first and individuals a distant second.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 15:22:43

It is still a reason we can be granted a divorce in this country what business is it to have to give a reason

OldMumsy Thu 08-Nov-12 15:28:26

When quoting from the Koran it must be borne in mind the abrogation of earlier verses by later ones.

"In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina.

When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses."

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 15:45:11

Oh my goodness. There are stil people denying there is a link.

This is dangerous and complacent. Not to say wilfully blinkered. How on earth is this going to be addressed if not through Muslim community leaders, in the end? No one wil lidten to outsiders. They'll just think we're heretics. So - what? I think the only people in the whole world who deny a connection between Islam and honour killings must be on this thread.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 15:46:46

"I also think that the British like to label everything and segregate it"

How ironic. A vast and vapid generalisation accusing people of .... generalisation.

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 15:48:44

A spouse seeking divorce in the west on grounds of adultery is going before the civil authorities. The attitude of the civil court is OK, dealbreaker there, rubber stamp. There is no question of 'sin' or the judgement of a religious leader.

And the idea of 'dishonour' vs 'honour' that CrescentMoon explicitly posted there is not part of the picture in the civil courts. The idea that honour is something really, really important shines right through the text CM quotes. It is the whole point of having the witnesses trot out with their testimony, for or against. The idea of honour being important is very strongly implied by that verse.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 15:50:14

What on earth is the point of quoting vast swathes of the Qran to us. Why don't you go and preach to the Muslims carrying out these crimes?

Oh - because it's nothing to do with their religion?

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 15:51:40

x posted math smile

and what about the testimony in these hearings - a woman's voice worth half that of a man

this is appeasement pure and simple, I'm pretty disgusted

OldMumsy Thu 08-Nov-12 16:00:45

Appeasement is what we have done in the West for the past couple of decades. The Left climbed into bed with the Islamic fundies and they threw their feminist sisters to the wolves. Tragic really.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 16:03:30

The point is that to prove adultery is not one person against another. No I do not agree a womens word is worth half a mans but still if you read more about Islam read the Koran you may still fond injustices but you will also learn that the fundemantal Islam is not true Islam but many want to ignore this

Religious men using religion to manipulate and but fear in people goes on every where along with cult leaders it is about power

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 16:08:08

I've just come back from a meeting on safety for girls in schools(a joint run thing by Fawcett and EVAW) , in that meeting an amazing group called Integrate who were Muslim, second generation Somali as far as I could gather. They say that their culture deny that this happens and as such more girls are at risk.

I think this is the same as honour killings, people deny that it even happens due to Islam and so girls continue to be murdered. Until the communities accept that there are roots in Islam they have blood on their hands.

I cannot believe people are so hell bent upon Islam being naff all to do with it.

crescentmoon Thu 08-Nov-12 16:08:24

"In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina."

not relevant here as all the verses from the Quran and hadith i quoted were from when Muhammad's headquarters were in madinah.

as for 'so what?'. thats what these verses are almost saying, its more trouble than its worth.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 16:08:35

You can't not agree. It's true. It's been made part of the law in a non Islamic ahem country like Egypt.

Anyway Freudian I don't need to read the Koran to know that it's wrong to kill members of your family, and to recognise that a great many people do this in the mistaken belief their faith requires it.

I am disgusted at the number of people who stil deny this. By denying it you are part of the problem.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 16:10:13

Crescent: anyone who denies any connection with Islam is part of the problem. Do you deny it?

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 16:10:54

Freudian --
The point is that to prove adultery is not one person against another.

And the point of ensuring that does not happen is to preserve the honour of the accused.

Honour is really, really important in Islam.

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 16:11:12

One thing that came through is when abuse is occurring we, British people, must not allow it on the grounds of culture, religion etc.

When I think about young girls being groped in British schools (1/3) by boys I lay blame at the door of MTV, lap dancing, entitlement of men and a whole plethora of things going wrong in our society. I find it a little tricky that other communities refuse to do the same. Do you not love and cherish your women?

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 16:13:58

' will also learn that the fundemantal Islam is not true Islam but many want to ignore this...'

Unfortunately, the fundamentalists believe that your brand of Islam is not 'true Islam'. The nature of the religion and how it has developed means that the definition of 'true Islam' is always up for grabs.

OldMumsy Thu 08-Nov-12 17:08:23

Spot the true Islam, LOL!

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 17:58:15

And why and how does this form of Islam spread this is what I mean by looking at the bigger picture what is happening in these countries and to stop lumping all Muslims together. How many on here have rad the Koran, how many have read or tried to understand the hadiths, how many know or ate Muslim yet over and over again those that are are being told they are wrong

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 19:12:06

Only Muslims can change as, shown here, if anyone else even comments they are told their opinions aren't welcome.

The Somali Forum in Bristol refuse to engage regarding FGM, as apparently it doesn't happen here!! (20000 girls are at risk every year) This is the honour/face/shame thing, right there.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 19:25:17

I don't need to read the Koran to know that honour kiling is wrong. It seems some Muslims do.

Freudian - it is YOU that is lumping all Muslims together. You are defending a big mass "Islam" without accepting that a lot of Muslims do things in the name of their faith which are deplorable. And that those deplorable crimes DO have something to do with Islam.

Stop lumping all Muslims together. Not all Muslims are like you.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 19:42:50

not all Muslims are like me what is that meant to mean?

yourself and posie and others have told those on here who are muslim who have a greater knowledge of islam, have lived in muslim countries over and over again what islam is about. no one on here has in any way suported any form of violence

posie you are right these women do not want to often engage with outsiders at first. maybe ask yourself why. they are women who have fled wars they are women that have lived in a society that is terribly oppressed and they are very fearful of strangers. if you had lived the life many of these women (and men) have you would be wary too. dv centres are set up for these women and mainly run by muslim women. these women need support to help make changes happen not told they are wrong and beign attacked all the time. i

Silibilimili Thu 08-Nov-12 20:09:03

I again reiterate. Where the level of education is higher, the freedom for women is greater. The more moderate the belief and tolerant the society, the more you will find higher level of education (Iran before the Khomeini), Afghanistan before the Russian invasion, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt etc. the trouble spots are the poorer less educated areas. Large parts of Pakistan, Afghanistan now, Somalia etc.

Education gets rid of superstition and in humane beliefs. Specially the education of girls.

pulledmuscle Thu 08-Nov-12 20:13:39

Its completely down to backwardness, ignorance, lack of general education and cultural practices. My blood turns cold everytime i think about what happened, the actual islamic religion has put so much emphasis on a daughter's rights, her right to be brought up in a safe, nurturing, loving environment, her right to education and to be protected from all harm, she is the mother of future generations after all. People who behave this way are not taught to think any other way and arent following their religion properly, theyre not taught to love, everything rests on 'honour', whether they have to cut their own nose off to prove it.

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 20:20:13

Actually Freud you're quite wrong. These wonderful campaigners are young Muslim women, one started the whole thing when she was fourteen. Constantly told she was wrong to speak of it BY MEN, it is MEN only on the Somali Forum.

See you contradict yourself, again. Why are there Muslim only refuges? Seriously why? Because of shame and tribalism, bringing shame and admitting that there are serious cracks in the 'perfect' Muslim life means even in desperate situations people preserve Islam.

Silibilimili Thu 08-Nov-12 20:31:23

posie, inly in a desperate situation people remember god. They have lost wealth, maybe health and family. Only common constant thread they have to hand on to their identity is religion. Therefore you see more of the bad Islam behaviour in conflict areas.
Where the level of life satisfaction is greater, people are more tolerant.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 20:39:47

how am i contradicitng myself?

yes some people often try to preserve a life they have known many have lost everything, many want to feel some form of control over their life better the devil you know than the devil you don't. how many expats live a very british life in spain, australia only mix with other british this is human nature

i have no idea what forum you are talking about but i know of agencies that work with muslim woman and work in specific areas and yes they are run by muslims its a connection they have a little trust is there where it may not be with a non muslim adn the problem with that is exactly

PosieParker Thu 08-Nov-12 20:46:20

Perhaps if these communities weren't so separate this country would be better for all. That's the thing that relgion can do, that's what dressing different can makes us separate communities living side by side NOT multi cultural.

The Somali Forum is a group in Bristol, the self appointed leaders of the Somali community, all men. So when organisations want to better communicate with Somalis they speak with the Forum.

And of course some people remain with their own tribe when abroad, but it doesn't make it right. I can't think why anyone wants to live here but refuses to be British or hates Britain or British culture and the British.

Silibilimili Thu 08-Nov-12 20:54:06

I don't think they hate all thing British. They stick with each other as there is safety in numbers. It's basic evolution. Basic human needs and nature to want to belong to a group, a pack.
The problem is why are we as British not able to penetrate this shell and make everyone British, like everyone in America is American.

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 21:14:04

Everyone in the US does not consider themselves as American only, hence you have lots -American communities - Irish American, Italian American, Cuban American.

Just because someone wears a certain type of clothing, speaks another/different language and isn't Christian or atheist does not mean they aren't British or hate Britain. You're starting to sound like the BNP.

Also, I'm still waiting to hear exactly why covering my hair with fabric is such a barrier. Do you think the same of a turban or skull cap?

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 21:23:31

oh yes of course if only everyone took on the british way if only colonisation worked the world would be a better place

MamaMary Thu 08-Nov-12 21:32:45

Religious men using religion to manipulate and but fear in people goes on every where along with cult leaders it is about power

Well said, I think this is true for every religion including Christianity; and it really is the root of the problem. I would say that religious male leaders use religion against women as a form of power. They are not concerned about what the holy text actually says, when it comes down to it.

In Islam, sadly, this can go very far indeed - e.g. imams blaming earthquakes on women's immodesty. It is so hypocritical it makes me sad. Why are the men not to be blamed for lusting after women?; why is it the 'evil woman's' fault? Why does a woman need to cover her God-given face and body for the sake of men?

Some other interesting points have been made RE education - I agree that it is the greatest means whereby women can be liberated and proteced.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 21:40:22

Freudian - you've attempted to lecture us while at the same time denying that honour killings have anything to do with Islam.

You might know this, that and the other -but if you don't know that there's a connection between Islam and honour killings then you don't know diddly squat.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 21:41:27

Freudian do you live in the UK ? Because you seem to hate British people and British history and heaven forfend British culture

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 21:44:47

Goth - it's freudian who's beginning to sound like the BNP and silibii who seems to be suggesting Muslims behave like a pack. I do hope she doesn't mean that.

I guess both they and you still deny any connection between Islam and honour killings. Anybody that does that is part of the problem of perpetuating this kind of mysogyny.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 21:46:36

"I again reiterate. Where the level of education is higher, the freedom for women is greater."

Saudi Arabia.

What's the point.

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 21:49:11

Brycie - You need to stop setting yourself as some kind of authority when you know arse all.

Also, saying that colonialism was a bad thing does not equate to hating Britain.

Still waiting on a response as to why a headscarf is more of a barrier then a turban.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 21:56:41

Just like saying honour killing is a bad thing doesn't equate with hating Islam. See what you did there?

It's very rude to say I know arse all when I do at least know that there is a connection between Islam and honour killing. As ong as you deny it, you are part of the problem. It easily puts you in the category of "think you know quite a bit - but actually don't have the first clue".

Who said the headscarf was a barrier? The face covering is a barrier. Do you disagree?

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 22:00:22

please c&p a sample of my hating british culture

and yes i do live here

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 22:01:46

I think a lot of British women converts are protesting about something, it's like Greenham or CND 25 years ago, a focus for a vague need to show one disagrees with the Iraq war, and doesn't like the BNP, wishes to show support for the Palestinians, and won't admit to a prejudice against the US but secretly it's in there somewhere, and isn't Guantanamo Bay awful - all well intentioned but a bit muddled up. Instead of a gap year, maybe.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 22:04:24

Then Freudian - maybe you should try to extend your understanding of a culture where, for example, adultery is no one's business but the family's; and where most members of it feel a sense of guilt and compensation for colonialism; because quite frankly if you think "the British way" is still colonialism then you don't know much.

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 22:06:46

I don't know why I said "British" women converts - it's the wrong word. Even "western" is the wrong word. Perhaps I just mean women converts.

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 22:09:54

'Everyone in the US does not consider themselves as American only, hence you have lots -American communities - Irish American, Italian American, Cuban American.'

They do consider themselves American only. The hyphens are attached to 'American'. Scratch that green t-shirt that gets taken out on St Paddy's Day and underneath you will find an American.

Do you honestly not see any difference between putting on a hat or head covering and covering up your face GAD? Do you understand the purpose of masks at all?

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 22:10:59

do you think i am not british?

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 22:13:04

I have no idea. Do you deny there is a connection between Islam and honour killings?

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 22:16:15

my dad now lives in america never calls himself american he is not though has lived there for 30 years he is proud of where he is from and so are my aunts, uncles and cousins who are there and god forbid they tend to mix with others from the same background

though sadly some have been brainwashed into thinking the bbc is spreading an anti american message but that is a different debate

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 22:16:58

'i have no idea what forum you are talking about but i know of agencies that work with muslim woman and work in specific areas and yes they are run by muslims its a connection they have a little trust is there where it may not be with a non muslim adn the problem with that is exactly'

Why would a Muslim woman not trust someone who was not Muslim?

I am gathering this is not an issue of a language barrier here.

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 22:17:00

I don't see niqab like that. I know people who wear it, it's a fairly common sight where I live, so it's no big deal.

I also used to work in an environment where people wore face protection, you get used to that too.

<awaits massive hurumphing of "why should I get used to this, this is the UK", sub BNP blather>

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 22:17:18

I don't care about your Dad. Do you deny there is a connection between honour killings and Islam?

Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 22:19:19

How tedious, don't like face covering therefore must support BNP.

Go ask Cote why she thinks it's a barrier.

So what if it's a common sight where you live? Most people don't wear masks most of the time in most places and most people don't feel comfortable with other people wearing masks. Talk about a statement of the obvious.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 22:25:26

i have said over and over again that some honour killings do happen in muslim cultures listed some of the reasons why too

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 22:26:19

Who mentioned their Dad? Nice how you don't care about them anyway.

That's what amuses me about these threads. Such "concern" about Muslim women, and yet you all sound like you wouldn't so much as tell someone the time if they ask.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 22:38:26

i was replying to mathanxiety that all those that now live in america considers themselves american

but once again no doubt my personal experience will be wrong hmm

crescentmoon Thu 08-Nov-12 22:41:54

this isnt about 'poor muslim women', this is about 'putting those uppity muslims in their place'. it was the uppity jews, then the uppity blacks, now its the uppity muslims.

some people feel offended that we do not believe of ourselves there is something inherent in us to make us permanently subordinate. it is not that we are too submissive, it is that we are not submissive enough.

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 22:43:34

Freud- you are only a Muslim woman remember, you should know your place and let the non-Muslim ladies patronise you and talk down to you for your own good.

They only do it because they care so much about us. Apparently.

mathanxiety Thu 08-Nov-12 22:46:32

It wasn't my personal experience there (22 years in the US). People who were born abroad tend to see themselves as hybrids at most, but their children tend to see themselves as American. I never became a citizen so always considered myself Irish.

GAD, It is really obnoxious to introduce the BNP into discussions of face covering. As if you are saying 'If you don't accept this fully then you are in the BNP'. It just ain't so.

And just because something is a common sight doesn't make it right, as I am sure many Muslims would say about bikinis, etc. When something is a common sight it just makes it difficult to do something different, if fitting in is important to you, or if not fitting in would make your life difficult.

crescentmoon Thu 08-Nov-12 22:47:44

this thread could have been an interesting discussion but its shown that some people want just to hate, theres a 1 dimension.
we are damned if we do and damned if we dont. however many imams, fatawas, verses from the quran it will not change some peoples opinion but alhamdullillah it can change the opinion of others.

Prejudices are rarely overcome by argument; not being founded in reason they cannot be destroyed by logic - Tryon Edwards (a Christian)

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 22:53:03

Math - if people use tropes commonly used by the BNP, particularly comments about being "British", I see no problem with that being pointed out.

I think people should be able to dress as they wish, whether it's a niqab or tons of facial piercings.

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 23:08:07

Goth i am not a muslim smile i shall probaby be told differently in a mintute so i could be wrong of course

but having read the koran, have family who are muslim have lived in a muslim country, my exh is muslim, lived with muslim family i believe i have a good understanding of islam. one thing i absolutely hate is the hatred and ignorance shown towards muslim people

that apparently makes me hate british culture too or have some deep guilt or hate america

i have enough muslim female family and friends to be well aware that muslim women are allowed a voice and can be as vocal as any non muslim woman

but hang on Goth have you not been on here long enough what about your husband, i guess he is having to read your replies before you can post them that is if he is not beating one of his other wives

not my family if anything my cousins who were born in the states want to embrace the culture even more it is common amoung families i know here too both asian and african i do not think it has anything to do with disliking british or american culture but more to do with celebrating where family came from something their parents/grandparents were not in always encouraged to do

FreudiansSlipper Thu 08-Nov-12 23:09:56

not my family mathanxiety ....

nailak Thu 08-Nov-12 23:25:54

in my area niqab is a common sight,

so are hotpants,

so are pyjamas in the day time with uggs

I don't feel the need to fit in with any of those groups....

GothAnneGeddes Thu 08-Nov-12 23:29:26

Salaam nailak, I wondered where you were grin

nailak Thu 08-Nov-12 23:34:00

lol, can't believe i missed all the fun!

nailak Thu 08-Nov-12 23:34:15


Brycie Thu 08-Nov-12 23:59:07

"this isnt about 'poor muslim women', this is about 'putting those uppity muslims in their place'"

Er no. It's about honour kilings and Islam - a problem you deny, deny, deny. You lump all Muslims together as lovely peaceful and kind. I don't do that for any group - all bad, all good, whatever. It's not good to generalise.

GothAnn I cannot conceive of anyone being amused on a thread about murdering women. But there we are - takes all sorts.

Freudian - you have conceded honour killings take place (how could you not) but put down to coincidence the fact they're associated with Islam. What was your comment earlier? "Some Muslims kill their daughters, some don't, so it has nothing to do with Islam". I paraphrase. It was a right old shrug.

I now see why honour killings will go on - it's appeasement, refusal to admit that there's a problem in the Muslim community. If there's no problem, how can the Muslim community address it? How can things change?

I hope to God that this is a minority view. What massive chips on the shoulder are displayed here.

If anyone is ready now to admit a connection between Islam and honour killings, go ahead. I will fall off my chair in amazement.

Brycie Fri 09-Nov-12 00:00:05

"particularly comments about being "British", "

it was FreudianSlipper who said what's so great about the British way, what about colonialism.


Cynner Fri 09-Nov-12 00:34:21

I believe there are imperfections in all religions. I can't speak to honour killings, as I do not have enough information to speak about it. There are fanatics in every religion known to mankind. Some of the bloodiest battles have occurred in the name of Jesus.
I am not Muslim, but Jewish. I certainly understand how antisemitism feels to me. I know the catch phrases used by racists. This entire thread feels like one big go at Muslim people.

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 01:49:43

brycie you do seem to have a bee in you bonnet about something. I have not said Islam acts like a pack.
Are you now needing a lesson in English as well as Islam and history!? You seem to want to agitate people and get a reaction.

I am not Muslim. I agree there is a high rate of honour killings in the Islamic population. However, I do not believe it is due to teachings of Islam. I believe it is due to lack of education. In particular the lack of education of women in countries with a high level of poverty. Such as Africa and Middle East.
The problem is not because of Islam. It is despite of it.

Since history there have always been two sides of Islam. One that is sword holding, statue destroying forced conversions and the other is where people convert as they are on the low rung of society and Islam offers them an absolute solution. People don't need to think for themselves what their religious philosophy means and every aspect is clearly spelt out for them. What to do Day to day, what to eat, what will happen for sure after death.
I bet you also that religions where a high proportion of men (priests) hold these powers, there will be problems. This is not because of the religions but because of the incorrect/immoral interpretations of them. We get that in Christianity. Now not allowing women bishops is not comparable to honour killings but is comparable that only men have all the power.
In the Islamic holy books, women are give equal power and their wealth is safeguarded. From what I know of the profits life, he had a very high regard for women. (Apologies but I am not Muslim to be able to go into this deeper). Islam does not teach honour killings and suppression of women.
Christianity however, history has destroyed many mentions of women in the books (Mary Magdelen?!)

I don't want to get into a debate of Christianity vrs Islam as that is not the point and I respect both of these great philosophical thoughts equally.

All I am trying to say is that it is men and their greed for control/power causes a lot of issues. Not these philosophies per say.

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 02:02:43

You will find Muslims people against wearing scarfs and niqabs. Most of my Iranian friends think its a travesty! Specially the men! Islam asks men and women to dress modestly. Now, how you interpret that is your call.
I disagree with being forced to wear a scarf and the burqa which apparently causes a lot of illness etc in women due to a lack of sunshine and vitamin d. Plus all the tripping hazards. Islam does not force women to wear these. Men do.

But what's wrong with wearing scarf if that's what you want to do!

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 02:11:33

I agree the face covering is a barrier. I have no problems with the scarf.

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 02:14:03

I don't think this thread is a big go at Muslims. Open debate is a good thing. Some of the comments however are not well thought out.

mathanxiety Fri 09-Nov-12 05:09:43

Silibilimili, there is no such thing as 'Islam'. It does not have one voice, one spokesman. Islam is whatever an imam says it is. Islam is whatever an individual believer thinks it is. Sadly, the loudest and most forceful voice drowns out the others.

PosieParker Fri 09-Nov-12 07:08:11

I wasn't saying that if you're anything that you're not British! Wow talk about serious projecting GAG.

There are some people who enjoy the benefits of a free country and/or welfare and/ education, NHS etc etc (Things that are brought about ONLY because of who the British people are).

The Burka is a different debate, it is extremism, tribalism at it's most offensive, basically it's two fingers up to the West. Everytime a woman makes herself invisible it makes this country a more shit place to be a woman, just like everytime a woman takes her clothes off for money. They are opposite ends of the same message, that women are owned.

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 07:48:07

What is GAG?

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 07:49:53

What does everything that Islam does that you don't agree with to do with 'two fingers up to the west'?!

Talk about a seriously flawed view on life!!

PosieParker Fri 09-Nov-12 07:54:44

I think that part of the reason that people fully cover in a country where it is not the norm and goes against the norms of the host culture is political and protest. I think it's definitely tribalism.

PosieParker Fri 09-Nov-12 07:56:53

GAG is Gothwhatsherface

FreudiansSlipper Fri 09-Nov-12 08:07:17

wonders how many tourists wear a headscarf when on holiday in dubai

One minute you are celebrating the freedoms we have in this country a view I share next you are questioning the choices some make in the way they dress

PosieParker Fri 09-Nov-12 08:09:14

Well it's not against the law is it?

And I wouldn't visit Dubai, I can't understand why anyone would. A soulless place.

PosieParker Fri 09-Nov-12 08:22:01

Message deleted by Mumsnet for breaking our Talk Guidelines. Replies may also be deleted.

Brycie Fri 09-Nov-12 08:28:11

Silibili you used the word "pack". Read your own posts. if you want to withdraw it, that's fine. i would welcome that.

"You seem to want to agitate people and get a reaction."

The reaction I want is an acceptance of a connection between honour killings and Islam. There are people on this thread who are trying to insist that to say there is a connection is a sign of deep prejudice.

Every desperate effort has been made to deny this and now the cries are coming out of "racists!"

Any time you want to accept there is a connection, go ahead. Only when the connection is accepted can the problem be challenged in mosques and madrassas and communities.

Cynner Fri 09-Nov-12 08:41:56

Posie, what a tasteless, vile comment. You felt unsafe as a white woman? I am not going to hint that you are being racist, I am going to shout about it.

Brycie Fri 09-Nov-12 08:47:21

Cynner: you seem to have an attitude rather like those police and social workers in north-west England refusing to help teenagers who were being abused. That is: if you close your eyes the problem doesn't exist.

Brycie Fri 09-Nov-12 09:07:44

In fact that seems to be true of quite a few people on this thread.

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 09:24:35

I don't think the problem does not exist. It does. But it is not because of Islam.

FreudiansSlipper Fri 09-Nov-12 09:25:06

I work within dv, I know of many agencies that work within the Muslim community that are run by Muslims, reasons given why they are run by Muslims for Muslims I have pointed out before. No women whatever her background, culture, religion or colour are not helped in some way where I work, and the women taht come to us are from all backgrounds. sadly funds restrict the amount of help we can give

No denials have been made that there are no problems within Muslim communities no community, country or culture is without problems some more than others but the problems are a cumulation of issues

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 09:26:17

I'm leaving this thread as between you and posie you are coming up with some really stupid ignorant and bigoted views.

This is no way to have a dialogue.

Silibilimili Fri 09-Nov-12 09:26:59

You (I mean brycie)

Frontpaw Fri 09-Nov-12 10:35:21

I have felt unsafe in some countries - but nothing to do with religion and all to do with places with a macho male dominated culture. Especially so where the perception of women/foreign women isn't great. Ive had foul experiences in France anbd Cyprus and a friend was raped in Greece.

This isnt about religion but region

How can we, as women stand up against female/child abuse and murder within families, whatever the religion? Sometimes religion will come into the equation (perhaps where the community is 'tight' but wasnt there also a scandal with an Amish community that just went unnoticed by the wider commuity).

nailak Fri 09-Nov-12 10:41:04

There are issues with dv in muslim communities.

There are agencies trying to educate Muslims about how wrong dv is.

Honour killings exist in Islam and Sikhism and Hinduism, when I am on my pc I will link stories.

The people who do this often are not practicing Muslims, if you see them no beard no covering, did anyone watch exposure? The programme on ITV? Islam was not mentioned a lot, the community the culture was mentioned a lot more.

Also there was a story in BBC the other week of a white man who beat his daughter for shaming the family coz she dating a black man.

I agree with op, I cannot understand how someone can kill their daughter, how they can care more about peer pressure and what the community thinks then their daughters life. It is absolutely unthinkable to me.

I don't think their is a connection between honour killings an Islam. There are as many Hindu and Sikh honour killings. Leading me to believe it is a cultural thing.

crescentmoon Fri 09-Nov-12 10:46:51

heres the sikh missionary society making a statement that honour killings are not because of the religion but culture...

Sikhism against honour killing

heres a story in the Guardian about a Christian armenian girl killed in honour killing

Tulay Goren

nailak Fri 09-Nov-12 10:50:59



Christian honour killings [[]]

Sikhs and Christians more likely to.condone violence against women then Muslims [[]]

nailak Fri 09-Nov-12 10:51:44

Oh man links failed, I'm on phone still!